VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, MARCH 8, 1978 N0.3

:brch 3, 1973 Tape No. 52 ~;:r - 1 Tite ilouse net at 3:00 P.:! . ~1r. Speaker in the Chair. :IR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I wish to draw to the attention of hon. members and to l~elcome on their behalf students from a number of schools l<ho are in t!:J.e galleries today. There are t1~elve grade eleven students from Victoria School in Gaultois, 2ccompanied by their teachers, :O!r. 1-layne Rendell and llr. Frank :ready. Also from :ie=itage nine grade eleven students from John cfuitman Central High accompanied by Hr. ;~esley Harris and ~!r.

Albert Loveless, from Dildo Woodman ~lementary, sixty-nine grade five students .,.ith their teacher ~fr. Harvey Reid and forty-two grade ten students from John 3urke High School in Grand Sank, accompanied by their teacher 1!r. :-lax Snook. ~erhaps I should point out th2t t:he Gaultois students I understand left Sunday morning and had to turn back because of heavy seas and they left again Honday evening at 4:00 P.~!. and arrived in St. John's yesterday afternoon at 4:00 P.~l. Sm'!E HO:L HElffiERS: Hear, hear! :!R.

SPEbKER: Pursuant to section (5) of the Internal Economy Co=ission I am required to report to the House of Assenbly within a certain number of days after a new session, the appointment, in this case the re-appointment of the Internal Economy Con~ission and I now make that report. The Internal Economy Co~nission consists of t!:J.e hen. member for St. John's South, as Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Committees, the hen. ~linister of Justice, the han. Hinister of Cons~~er Affairs and the Environment, the hen. llinister of Energy. and the Speaker. tiP... ~EP..RY: You do not get any rights at all, do you, Hr.

Speaker? l'.R. SPEAl<ER: ---·---- Uon. members lvill recall yesterday that I reserved decision on a point of order which I am now in a position to give. I mentioned yesterday that the S!.Jecific poiut on 1;,;i~ich t~e decision ~ -l as required '.·las as follo-:vs, and I "'ill !:'epe;;,t t~1e ·.vording t:1at I gave yesterday. 156

:rarch 8, 197 3 :·r.·: - 2. :IR.. SP!::"\..:G:R: ----- - II Tree specific ]JOint ~efore t!:le Chair is uhether an hon. member, being of the official Opposition, starting off the debate on the Address-in-Reply and not being the Leader of the Opposition, and not making a motion of non-confidence, does have unlimited time or does have forty-five minutes in which to speak." I have consulted the Hansards for the past five years and will make a review of what :1appened there. In 1973, the lead-off speaker for the Opposition was the then member for Bell Island, now member for LaPoile (:·lr. "eary).

The reference is Hansard, February lZtlo., 1973, page sixty-four. There was no amend!r:ent macle. The hon. gentleman was informed by the Speaker that he had ten minutes left and he spoke his regularly allocated time. In 1974 the same non. gentleman was the lead-off speaker, the reference Hansard, February 4th., page sixty-three, no amendment was made. In reply to a question to the Chair the hon. gentleman was informed that there was twenty minutes left and he spoke for his regularly allocated time.

In 1975, a most ut:usual state of affairs; the first speaker in the debate was the then Minister of ~-funicipal Affairs and now ~linister of Energy, a government member. But he in fact spoke his regularly allocated time. Sansard, February 27th. , of that year. The first Opposition speaker was :rr. Thoms. He adjourned the debate on that day. It was not called for a few weeks,on ~~rch lOth. and he continued. He made no amendment.

He was informed by the Chair that his time had expired. lie requested unanimous conser.t to continue beyond his allocated time, which waF not granted. 1~76, the first speaker was the Leader of the Opposition who moved an amendment. .\nd in 1977 the first spea,~er '.Vas the then Leader of the O!?position who moved an amendBent. 157

::"'rc h 3 , 1978 Tape No. 52. ~[ ! - 3 ~~R . S P E!\XE ~: So my dec:is:!_on 'lo/ ith re spe ct to t h e S? Ccif i c point: to be decided is that an han. member not being the Leacer of the Opposition, lvho starts off the debate on the Address- in ­ Reply cannot speak in excess of forty-five minutes unless be :;,oves an amendment which is a non-conficence motion. :158 -·

~!arch 8, 1978 Tape 53 PK - 1 STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. T. A. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure I announce the appointment of Mr. G. Frederick Saunders to the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities. Mr. Saunders was appointed Executive Director of the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities in 1968 and has served in that capacity since that time. Mr. Saunders during his time as Executive Director of the Board has been primarily involved in the regulation of Motor Carriers and the enforcement of the Motor Carries Act and regulations made thereunder.

He has served on various federal-provincial committees concerned with motor transport matters, and is the Province's representative on the federal-provincial committee on the transportation of dangerous goods. He was also a member of the Provincial government's task force on transportation and communications. Since February 1974,Mr. Saunders has served in the dual capacity of Executive Director and Clerk of the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities. He has also been very much involved in other regulatory functions of the Board such as Public Utilities and automobile insurance matters.

It is with pleasure I announce the promotion of this very competent Newfoundlander who is a career public servant to the position of Commissioner on the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities. AN RON. MEMBER: \Yhose place is he taking? MR. HICKMAN: No one. Mr. Saunders will be succeeded by Miss Carol Horwood as Clerk of the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities. Miss Horwood has been employed with the Board since 1961 and has held the position of secretary to the Chairman of the Board since 1967. In 1974 Miss Horwood assumed the additional duties as Assistant Clerk of the Board.

Again I am very happy that another competent and dedicated Newfoundland public servant has been duly promoted to a ver y responsible position with the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 159

Harch 8,1978 Tape 53 PK - 2 MR. SPEA..T{ER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE_: Mr. Speaker, two finer public servants than these two mentioned by the minister are not to be found in the public service.

Fred Saunders -I am speaking from personal knowledge and from firsthand experience - Fred Saunders as Clerk of the Public Utilities Board, and as Executive Director of that Board was invariably fair and impartial in his dealings with anybody appearing before the Board, exceedingly helpful, and a man who had acquired through experience, Sir, a professionalism, 1ln expertise that I think will be a great benefit to the Public Utilities Board.

I think he will do that job in a masterful way, and anyone appearing before him under any of the Acts administered by the Public Utilities Board will be well treated impartially, fairly, and in an equitable manner. Miss Horwood equally, I am sure,will do an admirable job as Clerk to the Public Utilities Board.

She,as the minister indicated,is again a career civil servant, a very fine lady, a lady who has always again in her dealings with the public and with lawyers and people, parties appearing before the Board,has been fair, equitable, unfailing in her courtesy, and in her consideration of all people who have to go before that Board. I commend the minister on these appointments, Mr. Speaker, and I offer the congratulations of all my colleagues on this side of the House to Mr. Saunders and Miss Horwood on these appointments. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: Before calling the next routine order,it has been drawn to my attention that we have some additional visitors in the gallery, An hon. members are aware this is International Women's Day, and there is- a group in the gallery from the Newfoundland Status of Women. I am sure hon. members join me in welcoming them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: From Ramea there are twelve Grade XI students from St. Boniface School,and their teacher 1 Miss Barbara Gellately, and from Burgee Mayor Ann Calder, Councillors John Savoury and Llyod Walters and the Town Manager Doug Kendall, I know hon. members 160

March 8, 1978 Tape 53 PK - 3 Mr. Speaker: join me in welcoming them as well in hoping that their visit will be an interesting and instructive one. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 161

':arc'l il, 1978 Tape 54 r.c - 1 PRFSE~ING PFTITIONS ~~. SPEfiKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. l·IR. HODDER: l(r. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition sipned hv Sixty-five residentS in thP central part Of the district of Port au Port.

The prayer of the oetition reads: F!l:EREAS the district of Port au Port has one of the hirhest rates of unemployment in the Province: and ~.Jl!EREAS a garbage collection recently instituted in the central cart of the district is costing residents of the area in excess of forty dollars oer year; and HHEREAS many incoroorated areas are paying much less than this amo•mt for the same service: and it was suggested 1vhen the first meetin~ 'vas held to form the committee that the fee '"ould be ~2 .sn oer month, ,~e ,the undersigned residents of ~lest Bay, Piccadill•;, Shio Cove, Abrahams Cove, Lower Cove and Campbell's Creek request the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to subsidize the waste disposal corr.mittee of that area so that the fee uill not he over $2.50 per month. tlow, Mr.

Speaker, in October of 1975 a meeting was held in Piccadilly in the district of Port au Port to see if the residents of the area ''ere interested in estalJlishinf, a garbage collection. At that meeting it '"as decided unanimously that such a service 1-1as necessary and a ''aste disposal committee was elected to serve that area. At that time, '·rr. Soeaker, questions uere asked IJy residents - I attended that meeting - as to ,.rhat the cost ,,•auld be. And the resiclents attending the meeting were told that the collection uouln be in the vicinity of S2.0f1 to $2.5() per month.

Because of delays in acauiring land and getting approval of government departments and that sort of thing, the service 11as not instituted until just a couple of months ago and the cost to the residents was 53.50 per month 1·71-tic.., works out to in excess of forty dollzrs per vear. :·io•• this may not seem like a lot of moneY to t 1Je hen. ;;entletr.en opnosj .te, hut in an 1.62

:~arch il, 1978 Tape 54 area ·.~here many people receive only $115 per week from Canada Harks anrl later, once they dr<m their tmemployment insurance, roughly about $80 per week, this is a lot of monev, especially if you have a large family and you are trying to keep them ac1equately clothed and fed. It has been said, Hr.

Speaker, that ;_leople in rural aree.s do not pay as much taxes as those in the city: hatvever, this is c'langing and t~1e people of t'"tis area, the wido>IS, the old age pensioners, peonle on social assistance and those on unereplovment insurance have to pay for services, maybe not in t he snme Pay as people from tl1e urban areas, but certainly t!"lev 11ave exDenses and expenditures.

TJ-:ere is the school tax Hhich plagues t)'}er~, there is the cost of transportation; in the partir.ular flrea tl,at I <m tall:ing a~out, all services are located an)TT,:here from ten to thirty nilP.s a':va::o a!ld for everyt~~in~r they must drive into the tm·m of Stephenville - if they h ave dental prohlems - everythin g is located a"·ay from that particular area. Jl.nd in this particular area as '"ell, ~1 r.

Speaker, many of the people must pay to get their '"ater hrought to them, because in many areas there is hardly any ,yater and they have a sort of svstem ~V hereby peoPle who do not have lvater have it hrou!':> .t to thetT' in trud:s, which is, to say the least, not nort'lal in this day and age. But, !·'r. Speaker, no one in this area ~Vould mind payinc: the fee if they l,.ad jobs. Jlo1vever, at the present time the 1l!'.ajority of neoole are wit~out war!~. In this particular area in my district I could safely sav that there is at least a 65 Per cent unemployment rate.

I fee l that it vrould be fair for the sovernment to subsidize the collection service in the area to alleviate the burden on the people until such time as the economy of the area improves. I believe, l'r. Speaker, that if jol)s are provirlecl for this area no one would have trouble payinq; t~eir fees or •..rould mind paying their fees. I ask that this he tabled and referred to the deDartment to which it relates. 1.63

·.:.. iii..rcn a,l::l7<> Tape ;~o. 35 1'i1e .~.:.on. ULini.sc~r.

L'~~. ~JLJ.l'\P.:.i.Y: I cau give tile .~. ·.~.o ... 1 . .;e.1.~.tlemau. no assurance that we could subsidize this waste ciispos<~l committee, unfortunately because we are not a fundfng department. '"ut I <loulci just like to say wit::t regarci to <~aste ciisposal coiiD:littees and their function - they are purely autonomous Goverllflent does not interfere in any way, ~liu I am speaking about unincorporated areas uow, Sir, 1•here certain people take on duties to take over the collection of t;arba;se from t!:-.eir neighbours or ><i1atever the case may be.

They appoint a collllllittee who in turn accept tenders for the collection and disposition of ,garbage and on t:1e total amount ti1at it cost ti1en it is prorated for individuals. i<ow I very !;I.Uch sympathize wit:1 ti·,e hen. member, quite frankly. \{e i1ave ninty-eight such disposal committees in the Province and we serve 223 cot:-.r~unities, Sir, and it :;ives r..e a ci1ance to pay :;ive some credit to tnese co=i ttees because they operate without a cent of pay. They are the first form ,;>erhaps, of iacorporated governrr.ent that we have in the Province.

And I will certainly look at what I can do,I can assure the han. member, but quite frankly my department,as I say,is not a funding department i 11 t;1e first instance.We will help them select a site, and there is an initial grant to ready the site for it but from there on the comnittee the~elves undertake the collection and disposition of garbage. ~o when I get a copy of the thing I can assure the member that I will have a look at the thing. It is the first time that government 1 to my knowled[;e,has been requested to subsidize garbage collection.

It is a first and I can certainly accept the p~tition when it comes to my desk and I will see if there is anything we can do \~iti1 it. A..."l:l .:.nymore t:1an that, Sir, that is the only assurance I can give the han. mer'.lber. 1IR. SPEAKER: Hen. member for ~inJsor-Zuchans. :•ill.. FLIGhT: :!r. Speaker, I -wis;1 to rise aL-C: support tile petition so ably presented by my han. colleague. In cioing so I -A'ant to support it by focusing ati:ention on or..e 3pecific point 1.64

iiarch 3, 197 u Tape No. 55 AE.-2 l·iP.. FLIGliT: ;:naC:e by the petition. I l~now of what I speak because as the mi...""J.ister :mm/S tnere is a waste disposal connittee in my district that I have had some association • .,ith. Now we have in Newfoundland waste disposal committees that nave been set up with no funding at all. I do not care that the Department of Environmental Affairs is not a funding department, Is the Department of ~Iunicipal Affairs a funding department? Treasury Board decides what money is spent. dR. dU.dPhY: T•leY give grants to ,nunicioalities. i·uZ.

FLIGHT: I.Jithin my district I iuve a Haste disposal comittee, a waste disposal area in wi1ich tite:. resiclents are paying $3o Jler year for garbage collection once a mouti1 or once a week. I am sorry. Five miles away I i1ave a co=uuity that is incorporated, a community council ,in '"i1ich t;le residents are getting "ater, zarbage collectionanu sn01., clearing fur less than $40 per year. So there is a great inequality soLleuhere to1ere. And I believe that if the JepartBent of the is not a funding depart~ent, I believe they are short-changing the incorporated communities who want the waste disposal committees.

You know,$36 per month for garbage collection only - . A .. 'l !!ON. :!E~IDER: :-lR. FLIGHT: $36 a year • -nonincorporated communities -$36 a year for garbage collection - when we know in an incorporated area $1.50 per month -,the town of Duchans for years, the local imporovement district of Buc!1ans to name one, for years hau a garbage collectioi< for $1.50 per month, $18 per year. \-Illy is it necessary in unincorporated areas? Why is the department not assisting those ,;aste disposal corJID.ittees?

And how again can the department expect five or six men to serve as a waste disposal cmmaittee if they are given no funds, no administration at all? In most cases it costs them everything they collect in the community to pay for the :;arbage collection. They ~1ave no funds, no revenue to bny stationery to aJminister their progrannne, r,ot~lin[>; no entice~aent 1.65

Tape !lo. 55 AR-3 cJR. FLI·;!iT: to ;1ave people volanteering for ,,,aste disposal committees•.and by in large it is double taxation. T1lere are in this Province lots of small incorporated areas that are getting by far more community services and paying less tha~, the waste disposal committees are. I think the minister should look at funding for those waste disposal committees. 166

March 8, 1978, Tape 56, Page 1 -- apb MR . SPEAKER: MR. CALLAN: The hon. member for Bellevue. Mr. Speaker, if there is no one else to speak on that particular petition I have a petition to present. I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 171 residents from the town of Hillview in the district of Bellevue. There are 172 signatures on the petition now, Mr. Speaker, including my own. Mr. Speaker, yesterday in this House I presented a petition that had an awful lot to do with a partition, the imaginary partition lying between two towns, Deep Bight and Adeytown.

Yesterday in presenting that petition I talked about some of the inequalities and the politics that were played there. Mr. Speaker, this is the third time, three consecutive House sittings, three consecutive times that I have presented a petition on behalf of the residents of Hillview who are asking that their community get an upgraded and a paved road. Approximately two miles would pave every inch of it, Mr. Speaker. Three times! Mr. Speaker, it is not because the people down there have not tried in other ways as well as asking me to present petitions in the House on their behalf.

During this past Summer five ladies from Hillview got into one of their cars and they went down and they met with the then Minister of Transportation and Communications in Bonavista, in the town hall down there. They met the minister and he said yes, he would be glad to come up to Hillview and, of course, he made the same empty promise that he has made to hundreds of people in this Province, that he would be glad to meet with them. The meeting, of course, never took place. 1.67 ...

March 8, 1978, Tape 56, Page 2 -- apb MR. CALLAN: I was in Hillview two weeks ago to hold an M.H.A's clinic and it was then that these ladies, of course, again talked about the fact that this minister, the former minister had made so many empty promises. Mr. Speak~r, there is no prayer as such on this petition. All it says is: "A petition for the paving of the community of Hillview this coming Summer." That is what is says on one page and on the other page it says: "From the residents of Hillview for paving the road through the community this coming Summer." One hundred and seventy-one signature, 172 with mine.

Mr. Speaker, I could spend two hours - I am allowed five minutes to present a petition, and perhaps I will not use the five minutes, but I cannot help saying before I sit down that here is another example like the one I gave yesterday. Mr. Speaker, at this present moment there is a delegation of eight gentlemen in the galleries who will be meeting with the new and the fairer and the less partisan, the new Minister of Transportation and Communications, following Question Period today. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I think I should repeat for the hon. gentleman what I said yesterday and I would hope that he will - not only hope,require- that he abide by it. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, following the little problem that took place in Adeytown this past Summer, the CBC did a television programme and in that television programme, Mr. Speaker, the impression was left by the member for Trinity North (Mr. Brett) that I as the member for the district of Bellevue was given so much money, say, a million or a half million dollars to .168

March 8, 1978, Tape 56, Page 3 -- apb MR. CALLAN: be used at my discretion to pave what roads I wanted to have paved or upgraded in my district. Mr. Speaker, I want to make it abundantly clear that this does not happen. An Opposition member does not have the opportunity to tell the Minister of Finance, or at least he did not, now what will happen in the future I do not know. MR. NEARY: It only happens in Harbour Main. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, it happens in the P.C.districts,I have been told by ministers. The Minister of Social Services told me. MR. MURPHY: Centre. MR. BRETT: MR. CALLAN: Not an inch in St.

John's Yes! Yes! Go away! No, because it is all paved in St. John's Centre, that is why. MR. FLIGHT: Flower Hill is paved. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I want to go on record as saying that the Minister of Social Services, the member for Trinity North (¥~.

Brett) who was on the CBC television programme the same night that I was on there in connection with Adeytown and Deep Bight, the grave injustice that ook place there; he left the impression, and people in Hillview two weeks ago told me that they thought that I had decided that Garden Cove and North Harbour would be done,because it was in my district, rather than Southport. Of course I explained to them why North Harbour and Garden Cove were done and I told them that the Minister of Highways did not even know that it was going to be done and that tenders had been called and cancelled and called again. 169

.L.. March 8, 1978, Tape 56, Page 4 -- apb MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, if I were given the choice, and, Mr. Speaker, I do not know why government do not give me the choice, it would put me on the spot would it not? If I were given a million dollars for the district of Bellevue it would put me on the spot and the onus would be on me. Then if the people in Hillview said, Why did we not get pavement like they got down in Southwest Arm? then the onus would be on me to explain and, of course, I would be in a position to explain it.

If it were my choice I would not pave some of the areas of my district that have been paved, I would have paved others where the need is greater, and Southwest Arm, Mr. Speaker, is a prime case in point.

The millions of pounds of fish that are trucked out of these communities over that twenty-one mile stretch; imagine hundreds of transport trucks and trailers having to go half way, or a little over half way to the last community, Southport, and then fish loaded in smaller trucks and then put on the larger tractor-trailers two or three miles out the road because the road was not reconstructed to the point where the tractor trailers could go right down to the last community where the fish plant was and turn around and get their load and then go wherever they wanted to go.

The hogwash that you see and hear talk of in priorities and the way things are done makes me angry. Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of this petition. I hope that the people in Hillview do not have to come back another three or four times. This is the third time. I support the prayer of the petition and I trust, Mr. Speaker, that the new Minister of Transportation and Communications will be fair and square. If the money is there, let us do it. 1.70

:rarch 8, 1978 Tape C<o. 57 ~'li - 1 tilL CALLAN: :rr. Speaker, I ask that this petition be placed on the table of the House and referred to the department to 1vhich it relates. l!R. SPEAKER: The han. !1inister of Tourism, and the han. member for Conception Bay South. !·fr. Speaker, just a few comments on the petition to point out that last year I did meet 1.-ith the residents of ?.illview who were asking for improvements to their roads by means of paving same,and I met Hit!-. them in Bonavista on one occasion and a second occasion I offered to meet with them a second time in St.

John's but they found that they could not travel to St. John 1 s and shortly after the beginning of the :~ev' Year I mentioned to them then that - to the chairman, the man em?loyed at Clarenville, I forget his name off hand. that I would meet with them in early Spring. In reference to the comments and needs for· roads in the hon. gentlem~n's district, I would like to point out over the past b~o years, as the minister responsible, that it was arranged to have a manjor reconstruction of a

section of road on the southwest arm, towards Southport, to the point I think ~nly approxL~ately three miles remained to be done in reconstruction do1m to Southport, inside Gooseberry Cove. That is one

section of road. The other in the Hillview area, we arran3ed to spend approxirr~tely ~250,000 on the construction of a new access road into the Trans- Canada Highway through Hillview. These funds IJere spent by this government and arranged by the minister responsible for the day • And I take exception to these comments saying that the funds are only being spent in districts with the government representation, etc., that is not true. Order, please! Order, please! :·!R. CALLACI : It is true. l!R. SPEAKER: Order, please~ I must point out to the han. gentleman the same points I made to the han. member for nellevue (}lr. Callan), 171

:-~rch S. 1978 Tape No. 57 ~-r.r - 2 :m.. SP!:.A .. 'ZE..~; and that these matters cannot be debated ------- under petitions. There is no motion before the Chair. A person may speak on the material allegation of the petition. There can be no debate and that is straightforward,s::anding Orders 92 and 97. Thank you, I!r. Speaker. Sometimes w-e tenoi to get political in the House. ~!r. Speaker, the fact is these matters, the residents of Hillview and ;i.n fact in the Southport area, today I saw a gentleman from Southport. I assume he is concerned with the road problem as w·ell.

These problems are recognized by government. There is a limited amount of funds each year and I am sure my colleague, the now new Hinister of Transportation and CorJIIlunications will give the same consideration to these problems that was given in the past. HR. SPEA..'<ER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. HR. NOLA..'\1 : ·----·- }fr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition as tabled by my han. friend on behalf of the 178 citizens of Hillview and I do so as a member fo the House of Assembly tvho probably has the worst transportation system on God's earth, this side of the moon. A..'\1 RON.

MEMBER: Hear, hear! 1-!R. NOLA..'<: For example,I would say that out on the Topsail Highway there are more divorces caused just during the slight snow storms '1e have from time to time, every evening they are trving to get back and forth, than any place in this world. And I am hoping tha~ ~ecause we have a new minister now, who is familiar with the area very well, being from up that way and so on, that we can look to new things, new policies, and new programmes. SOHE RON. HE~·IBERS: Hear, hear! 1m. DO~p~ Not the divorce problem . 172

. ~ ~fa rc h 8, 19 78 Tape ~!o . 57 ~~ -3 :m. :-lOLAN: :<ot t~e divorce problem, no . 3ut nevertheless t e people who have put t he petition in here do so to have it through their hon . member treated wich respect. It is not a political ball yrag back and forth . Ther e ~ re 178 people out there who mav or may not be in a position to make a television appearan ce to appear in person here in this House of Assembly, or even co have the honou r of siccing in the minister's office, or coming i n '..lith a delegacion.

And so -.,hat they have said to this mEIIlber. as the have to ochers fro m time to time, other citi zens,tha t is, t hat he re is our plea , here is our vraye r , here is what we are asking fo r and here is what we elect zoverncents for . ~e are ~o t as king for any luxury . e ar e asking for a simple , basic ~ necessity and if funds can be spe:'lt on so many things that you hea r about in broadcas ts and read i n newspapers,wh~ch may no t and in fact do not have any kind of reasonable,lo gical priority in the social needs of the people of this Province, eben how can any }iinister of Trans portat i on wheth er i t be the new minister or the gentleman across the way who just att empted to address himse l f and to be so evasiv e on this i ssue A.~ RON • ~ln!3ER : The re ject.

MR • • OLA.loi: The reject, t he dandy, whatever you call him the Beau J am.es of t he House, bu t whatever, we think this is an ~ortant reti tiOn and we ask the ministe r to pleas e look upon it wi t h sympathy and respect and hope£ully to address t he problen with some real action as soon as the Spring thaw comes . 1.73

March 8, 1978 Tape 58 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: Are there any further petitions? PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Finance. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the Financial Statement for the year ending March 1977 as prepared by the Auditor-General of the Newfoundland Legal Aid Commission. NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following resolution:

WHEREAS it is recognized by all that marriage is an equal partnership for all purposes; AND

WHEREAS the contribution in a marriage, in a home, and to the family is equal for both spouses; AND

WHEREAS to date the law does not recognize equal contribution by women to property acquired during marriage; NOW BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that the House advise the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to bring before this hon.

House legislation incorporating the following: That in reforming the family property law we favour a system of community property with joint management by both spouses during the marriage, that the spouse by attributed a legal one half share in assets acquired by the other during the marriage, in other words by gifts or inheritance received by either spouse from outside sources, and of which they immediately assume co-ownership upon acquisition.

That the married woman's contribution to the household be acknowledged as an economic one both during the course of the marriage as well as upon the dissolution of the marriage. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: A question, Mr. Speaker, addressed to the hoo. House Leader on the government side, and the Minister of Justice, the Minister of Finance. The question is; will the House Leader tell the House if he intends to introdJce legislation in the House during this 174

March 8, 1978 Tape 58 PK - 2 Mr. W.

Rowe: session, and if so, when, or if not ~•hen concerning the substance of a brief received by the government from the Newfoundland Status of Women Council, such brief containing, Sir, a submission regarding matrimonial property rights in Newfoundland, in substance and very briefly indicating that matrimonial property acquired during a marriage be. considered to be the property. equally of both partners to that marriage for all purposes during the marriage, and to be divided equally if that marriage should for any reason to be dissolved, for any reason 1 death, divorce or dissolution of any kind, a position, by the way, Sir, which we on this side of the House unequivocably support.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. ROWE: Does the House Leader intend to introduce legislation during this session of the House on that very, very topical subject? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: I realize how topical the subject is. And may I say that the only party in Newfoundland, political party, so far has been the Progressive Conservative Party of Newfoundland which through the government of this Province in the last year's Speech from the Throne enunicated clearly and beyond all reasonable doubt that we will - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

HICKMAN: that we will bring in - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! AN RON. MEMBER: Order, please! MR. HICKMAN: I see one or two han. gentlemen over there now who are heading straight for the Hayles Home but I cannot help that, that is their problem, Mr. Speaker. That we will bring before this Legislature very far-reaching and forward looking matrimonial property law.

This was done after consultation not only with the Status of Women group,whom I met with again this morning; last year we discussed two items, one was the bringing of legislation on the Unified Family Court,which we did last year 1 and secondly, I advised them then, and we advised the public of Newfoundland through the Speech from the Thfone~that we would be soliciting this year 175

March 8, 1978 Tape 58 PK - 3 ~tr. Hickman: input from Newfoundlanders, all Newfoundlanders, who are at all interested in the kind of matrimonial property law that they envisage. In January of this year,pursuant to our commitment,an advertisement was carried in the press, and at the same time the Status of Women Council carry also a questionnaire they circularized throughout the 'Province asking - AN BON. ~!El>IBER : Views on the subiect. HR. HICKMAN: That is right. - asking for an indication from the people of the Province as to the kind of issues that they would like to have dealt with .

The response has been overwhelming. HR. W. ROWE: Ye~ or no would rln . XR. RICKMAN: The response has been over*helming. \. 176 < e \

··arch l97R Tape 59 E(' - 1. !'R . H1 C:~-'-A~ : The xesponse sho<;s a t hi rd divet:gence of opinion, not t!le !:i nd of emohasi s on inheritance that I :teard J;orthcomin,!! from t:he resolution that '.l'as .i ust given notice of - Orde r, please: "!{ . IC::C!I'~l: - hut certainl y a ve:: enuine concern an d I am has tenin g and rushi~ to - ' • • Sl'EAKE"R: Or der, please . >\~ no . ''EW!f.R : Sit down! Sit down! If t he hon. g entleman - 'ffi .

SPE Kr.!>. : '!'he bon. !llini ster is no doubt aware tllat. the gene ral rules 1~ich gove rn t;,.e f'luestion Pe rio d cover bath ques t ions and ;msHers, a:1d I real ize the oues tion was . in i tsel so"'e"har lo g: ~owe ver, I think the answer is perhaps bec owin ~ unnecessarily !on to give the i:1for~~tion reauestaQ . Rea r hea r! ~!R . RIC!~I.AN : ~! r.

Speaker , I will restrict my a nswer a.s ll)uch as possible . ! >:not.: hon . gentlemen Op)losite will not want to hea r and have the fac~. 1 indicate d today that it is the decision of ~over~ent, t he policy of !tOvernment that as soon as we are able to cor !:e late 11 the information that. is still comin g in that we will t:hen follot; t:le very democ r atic process of indics cing ~, detail the legislation to be brought. befo r e t hi s House O.,y t~ ay o a "lhit e Pape r so that 1;re can r..ave inpu t, as t ~as done hy my hon. fr' end last year so successfull y from all interested

partie s to insure thllt the legislation that we ll r-i.'l~ in will not run afoul of the many p ro ble~s that. have been encountered in _ e islatur _es and in jurisdictions w!lere the b t:ou ght. it in in indecent haste - " . Speaker, a supplementary . l-m. SPEAKER : A sup!)lement.ary . ~'P.. . '\1 • ~ • P01-JE : It may be use1ess to ask the qu estion. Sir , 7lut L will try asain. ld~l t he ministe r ans<,er ' Ye:::' or ' ~·o' 177

"arch ~, 19 7S !aoe 59 ~c - 2 '-'R.. p . !1. ~01-TJ:: ••hether he intends, Sir, on behalf of the acministration ~o bring in legisla tion during this session of the House to imoLement , to put into law , substance of the brief from the :-lewfoundland Status of !o/omen Council? Yes or ro, ' 1r. Spen'-er a simple ques tion . SO'\E !i0'' . ''El-IRERS : "!) SPEAKER: Oh , oh! The t,on . ''inis ter of .JI•!;tice . ":- . Spe:tker, I rio not 9ropose to - vou know, the ~on . 2er.tleman oooosite is not Poin~ to rictate the ~~nne r in ~~ich 1 ~n~•er t~e question .

I trill rePent that t~is adniniscra tion intencs to brin? befo re this le~islature nooropriate ::~a trironial prope r ::.y !att legislation; seconcly, unless the:e is a !'all session or the 1-!ouse, 1 cot!bt if '-'e "~.'ill have the kind of res?onse to the ':!lite ?aner ::!:at ~.·e :~eerl. !lut nose assuredly, ·.c:e are co~tteci to ~rin&ing in le~islation, not simply - and ! ao sure the hon. the Leacer of the Opoosition ~id not cean this - not si~?lY based on one brie f f rom one association,t~hich is a ~~ell clocumer:te d ~rief , but also hearin~ in mind the other responses that we have received to our invitat:ion from the puhlic to indicate t:!'te 'dnd of legisla t ion they ~~oulc'. like to see . !lut it will be p.ood .

There will be no ot!ler. province ~Jith bette r le;::islation . :::o: 'E '!OJ;. "F.' ' Il r: ~s : ·'It . H. ~~ • !l.OPf : . !? . \ol. " . t>Qllf: !:ear , "'enr! A sup~lementary . A supplementarv . Sir , ! thin~ ~:e may be zeroin~ in on t!le 'Yes' or •:;o' position very slowly . T.et c:e ask it a~ain . l)o I understand from t"te t:!inister that he does not intend curin<t t'1is present session of the rouse to ~rin~ in le~islation coverin~ matriconial oroperty rights in this Province? The hon . ~!inister of Jus t ice. '"1 . "ICK'!A:! : It de9ends , ''r . Soeoker . on the lengt:. of the session . ,. . 178

' '"arch ~. 197S ' !R. !:0 \.!£: '!?... Sf'Ej\J<.E'R : .,IR • W. :· • ~.O!·:F. : 'L~pe 59 r:c - One further supolementar;, .·r . Spea ker. The hon . member, a supplementary . I• en does the hon . mini stet', Sir, intend to bring in this so-called P.hite f'ape~, famOus .fuite Pape r of hi s dealing with this important subject? - <!urin this present session of the i'ouse ? - or can e give us so:ne indication :ln terms of sol!'e sort of a reasona ole time frame t•hen he is ~oin o :,rin~ it into the ~' o use? The hon. !'in is ter of Justi ce. ' !r . Speaker , the ret: urns an" t:he representations are still comin in.

In fac t, I ·•ould an ticipate a large umber tod-v aFtet' t e very comrnenrlable a ctivitv of the ladies in the lobby tod::ty ;ho ha ve bee n circularizin;; these questionnaires . The y will t hen be revie ed by the professional staf in my "e artment . follot-:ing l~hich a !,'hite Pap er ·ill he pre pa red . And as soon as tha t Whi.te Paper is prepare d if t:.~is House is in session, it will be tahleci; if not, it will be made public so that any intereste d )le wfoundlander will have the opportunity of comment in!'! ther eon. J\nd most assu redly.

I repeat, t his administ rat ion will rin~ in excellen~ le g~ sla:ion in the field of u.atrimonial p-roperty law . ' · 179 •·

;.rarch 3 ,19 7 3 :1l' •• SPEAKER: <JR. NEARY: :•.!R. SPEAKER: Bellevue. l·!R, NEARY: Tape l;o, 60 The hen. ~ember for LaPoile. A suppleoeutary, Mr. Speaker. AH-1 A supplementary,followed by ti1e hon. member for I would like to direct my question to the hon. the Premier, Sir. About one year ago on television - and I think this is appropriate in viel{ of the fact that Your lionour has brought it to the at tenti,:hl of the House that this is International lolomen' s Day. And tl1e buttons that we are wearing on this side, Nr.

Speaker, for the benefit of members on the opposite sioe, anu I do not see any buttons over there, is the emolem of the ~ewfoundland Status of Women. The question I l{ant to ask - I •.;ant to direct the question to the Premier. About one year ago on television the Premier of tilis Province said ;;ublicly and later confirmed in tl-.e !louse on a question that I put to t!1e Premier about appointing l<omen to gover=ent agencies and crown corporations and so forth aa so on. Noli apparently this has not heppened.

Could the Premier tell us if instructions have gone out from his office to the various crown agencies and crown corporations an<l agencies of government that t:1ey are to take a look at appointing women as we:: as men to these boards when vacancies occur? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREiUER ;·IOORES: }rr. Speaker, I think it is fair to say that it was a~ost traditional over the years, over the years since government has been in t:1is Province that males have been appointed to cornaissions and boards certainly much more than 1,·omen and that seemed to be ti1e vtay to do it.

But I think there has been a radical change last year,and I have contacted all boards and all agencies to the effect that people with ability shoulc.i be treated equally. An example,I think,is that three of the five new Board of Regents at the university were women. Certainly it is the intention of this government to do everything in its power to .. 1.80

Tape :<o. GO AH-2 PRE:IIER HOORES: bring about en equitable position on boards and agencies to representinJ soci.~ty as we have it tcday. :1R. SPEAKER: I i1ave indicated that I recognize the :1on. member for Bellevue next followed, by the han. ,:;-;ntleman f?r Port au Port. HR. CALLAN: }lr, Speaker, it seemed like all the supplementaries •~ere used up so I want to move on to another subject ,if I may.

I >muld bagine that 'IIOSt of us tcatci<ed the CllC prosr=le The Fifth Estate last ni~;:1t, a very interestinz progralll!Ue and I think ti1e Premier is to be congratulated and commended for the job ti1at he did on the pro sealing hunt expedition . SOHE: HO:<. :-IEHBERS : }!R. CALLAN : near, hear! . :-Ir. Speaker, I want to refer in my question to the Premier, I want to refer baclc to perhaps three weeks or a month ago to the same ;:>rogramrae 1vhere there was some talk of Petro-Can 3etting oil from Venezuela to open up the nov defunct Come !Jy Chance oil refinery.

I want to ask the Premier wllat liaison if any, what liaison exists between the federal and the provincial gover=ent in efforts to get the Come by Chance oil refinery back on the rails? Is there a liaison there with the federal govertu~~ent, \-lith Petro-Can? ~nat efforts are being made? ~IF.. SPEAKER: PREiHER ~lOORES: gentleman knows,is a The hon. Premier. crown agency, a Petro-Can, as t~e han. crown corporation.

The only liaison that we have had with the federal sovernment regar~ing r;etting Come by Chance back on the rails,a.s the han. mer.lber puts -~t,is through continuous discussions with the Hinister of External Affairs, l1r. Jamieson,who happens to be Newfoundland 1 s representative in the Cabinet. But as I explained yesterday,the federal government any more than ourselves can do nothing as long as the receiver is i~ place 1.1hich is the case now and until such time as ve have the receiver's recommendation, :.- 181

:l.:lrch 8, 1973 Tape ~;o . 60 Ali- 3 · ·~ .,!\. DOJDY: ?ecro - C;;.n were opproc.c!ted by t he receiver . :1R. :-!OORES: The :-linist er of Intergovernmental Affairs just reminds me that ?ecro-Can ~>e.re approached !>y tha receiver to ask if they t hemselves would ta~e a position in Co~e by Ci~nce , if they would show an interest in oper ating t he old refinery in Cooe by Chance, ~ their reply to the receiver and to t~e interested parties was ·~o" tl-.t-y would not . i!R. SPEAKER: A supplementary . ~IR . CALlAN : <;r.

Spe.-.ker , would the P1:e111ier comment ~n any way on a ::-umour that at leas: one of the interested people, people interested in t he Co!lle by C:tance operation !1as carried on nego tia tio ns with t he federal. government and with the idea in t:dnd t hat if :;;,e federal govern:nent would sell a nuclea-: renctor to "uwait , t he coun try of Kuwait , that Kuwait in ::eturn for t:U.t sale would back this buye r up to tl:e tune o: $600 1:1illion :.1~ich of course is enough money co get the refi:lery on c:1e :;o and to build t he petro-~enical plant whic ~ was supposed to so there in the first place to make t he operation viable which it never ;~s been .

Could tae Premier comment on that? Is tha t a runour or ... .:.at? :IR. SPE.<\!~Eit : Tne bon . Preoie r. PRF.:-!IER :-[()ORES: :1r. Speake r, it certainly is now .. ,._ :182

'larch 8, 1978 Tape No. 61 NH - 1 P;ITc-!:ER HOORES : w'hat we have to do ~•ith the reactor in iCuwait no, this is fairly nevl to me and I am sure that all the people who are interested in the refinery have had •1e:;otiations 'vith the federal government because for one reason there is the wharf agreement that would have to be in place for it. But as regards any particular arrangement with the Government of Kuwait we have not been officially contacted on that in any way. MR. SPE!JT...ER: The hon. member for Port au Port follo>Ted by the hon. members for St. Georges, Le••isporte and 3ay of Islands. :·!R. J.

HODDER: clr. Speaker, a question to the Premier in the absence of the Hinister of Education. What is the government's stand <lith respect to bringing in phase three in the reduction o E the pupil/teacher ratio1 Should I do that at,ain, Hr. Speaker? ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. Georges,I presume. The hon. member for Port au Port. :.fR. HODDER: I had a question for the Premier. The question '"as, in the absence of the Minister of Education, what is the government's stand with respect to bringing in phase three in the reduction of the pupil/teacher ratio? c:R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PRE:C!IER HOORES: Hell, llr. Speaker, first of all that is a budgetary measure but it is the objective of the government~ when we can afford it, to bring the pupil/teacher ratio as low as possible.anu that is not just a political answer at this time. We all know we are living in a period of restraints. \le all know that there is only so much we can do,but the objective is to lo,ver the pupil/teacher ratio as much as possible. ~!R. HODDER: ------ A sup?lementary. :.fR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

HODDER: In light of the fact that before when the Teacher Association, etc., asked for the ratio to be lmvered the excuse was usually given that one of the problems ·.ras the increase in school ,-- 183

~farch 8, 1978 Tape ~o. 61 NM - 2 HR. J!')T'DER: ------ buildings and the fact that in order to decrease the pupil/teacher ratio then the government would have to build new buildings and new clasGrooms and that sort of thing. Has the government other proposals at the present time which may reduce the pupil/teacher ratio through the laying off of teachers and does the Premier not think that this would be a very good time to lower the pupil/teacher ratio because of the decreased enrollments1 l!R. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. - --- --- PRE:·UE3. 'IOORES: If we had the money, Hr.

Speaker, we most certainly would consider that. Unfortunately we do not. It was a two or three part question; the other part that is ironic is that lvhilst the school population is lowering, and whilst ''e have more schools t:::tan in some places we have the need, the demand for schools have changed location, particularly in the city area here in St.

Joh!1 1 s, ,;ith the urban spra,;l, the urban build up of people and the younger families moving in there. lfuat has happened is that a lot of the schools in the old city are closing almost, or in the possibility of closing, and new schools are needed of course where the children live and this is an ironic and a very difficult problem but basically one which, as the han. member knows, the grants to the school boards for school construction and this sort of thing has been increased j~st about each year and that carries on. A final supplementary . l!R.

HODDER; ----- Could the Premier tell the House how many teachers will be laid off because of those government cut backs? PF.E~[IER HOORES : ~o,I cannot, Mr. Speaker. I will take notice of the question and get the answer for the han. member. HR. SPE.'\..'<ER: The han. member for St. John's VI est. Was it a supplementary on which he arose? No. Then I had indicated \ ~84

i2rch "3, 1978 ~ape ~l o . 61 'f.:l - 3 :m. Sl' ,:.~3J!:R: pJ:eviously ! would reco gnize cext t!:te hon. ~ember for St . Georges . ~!RS . HC!SAAC: Mr . Speake r, I would like to revert back with a supplementary on matrimonial pro pe rcy law if possible . The non . member migh t: just ask a stra ight ques ·tion. Perhaps I should exp~ain .

When the.re are no further supplementari2s, or the Chair recognizes anothe r han . member, everybody ha s ·the ri~ht if they ~re J:ecognizad to come ha ck to cle original questio a 1ut i t is not as a suppleaencary in ~1 e parliaoen~ary sense, it is as if it were a ne<J subject . The ho n. ~mbeJ: for St . Georges. l!RS . ~!CISA...\C: Tha..."lk you , Hr.

Speaker . :-ly question is for t!le .:inis ter of Jus tice. l.as t year in t:.l1e Speech f ro m. the T1 rone there '"·as consi~e=able me:ttion about drafting U!) th.is legisla t ion and it also illentioned -:,at it :.·as ho ped to b r ing in leg islation you k.no<;~prior to closing o£ that session. ·at ::.as in February of 1977 , and no-,.; l1e are in Narch of 1978 and 1ve still do no t ~ave the info=matio n to draft up this l egisla.tion ,and I am wonqering sin ce it •.;as no t meotioaed in th e Speech fro m the Throne a t al l t his year , is there a possibility t.hat maybe it is falling oy tile r.•ayside or could we f':et something firm o n just ,,•hen t his legislation '-''il l be drafted up and present ed to t h e House of ! ·ssell.lbly . -~ 185

March 8, 1978 Tape 62 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: May I assure the han. member for St. George's (Mrs. Mcisaac) that there is no possibility of that great and excellent concept falling by the wayside. But the legislation,as I indicated before,will be drafted, will be brought before this House at the earliest opportunity. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: One supplementary, and then the han. gentleman for Lewisporte as I have indicated. MR.

NEARY: I would like to ask the Premien if the Premier is aware that the han. the Speaker of the House of Assembly in this Province has recognized the Status of Women by appointing to his staff a very attractive young lady who is sitting out in the middle of the floor, Miss Duff, and I would just like to draw that to the attention of members. I believe it is the first time in the history of Newfoundland that that appointment has been made. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: In reply to that question,! look forward to the day when we have the lady member opposite is Opposition House Leader as well.

I think it would be a very major step forward. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! I MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Lewisporte. MR. F. WHIT~: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Could the minister indicate to the House whether or not he has had a request from the Newfoundland Federation of Municipalities with respect to a meeting date with the Premier and Cabinet for the presentation of their annual brief? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. J. DINN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have. MR. WHITE: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

WHITE: Mr. Speaker, could the minister tell the House exactly what the situation is with respect to giving a firm date to the Federation of Municipalities f or the presentation of their brief to the Premier and to the Cabinet? 186

March 8, 1978 MR. SPEAKER: MR. DINN: Tape 62 PK - 2 The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. I will be communicating with the Federation tomorrow morning by letter and telegram, and it will indicate that there will be a meeting next week or the week after. I have to find out from them which will be more appropriate to them, but I believe it will be next week. MR. WHITE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. WHITE: A final supplementary. A final supplementary. Mr. Speaker, could the minister indicate whether or not this meeting will be with the Premier and the Cabinet? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DINN: MR. SPEAKER: The han.

Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. No, Mr. Speaker. I recognize the han. gentleman for the Bay of Islands followed by the han. member for St. John's West, and Fortune-Hermitage. Having recognized another han. member, I can only permit that by leave. SOME HON. ME}ffiERS: By leave. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, the ~inister indicated that the meeting would be held with the Premier and the Cabinet in one of his questions, and then I asked him whether or not this would be a meeting with the Premier and the Cabinet, and he said, No. be with? Well,who will the meeting MR. SPEAKER: MR. DINN: The han.

Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Mr. Speaker, the Federation asked for a meeting with Cabinet as they always do every year. Every year we have a meeting of either Cabinet or the Social Policy Committee or whichever the br~ef that they present refers to. This year we are going to meet with them as a Social Policy Committee so we will have a group of - SOME HON, MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for the Bay of Islands. MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice, and before asking the question I would like to say it concerns the Status of Women. I would like to

preamble it by saying that I am delighted to see three ladies from the city of Corner Brook in the galleries today, who are really responsible for the questionnaire that ,. 1.87

~!arch 8, 1978 Tape 62 PK - 3 Nr . 1\'oodrow: has been sent to the hon. Minister of Justice. I would also like to say that I was happy to have them visit my office this morning on the 5th. Floor . Now I would just like to ask - NR . SPEAKER: Order,please! Order, please ! I really do think that I should .require that the hon . gentleman get to his question with alacrity. MR . WOODROW: I am coming to it , ~!r. Speaker. I <Ooulci like to ask the 1inist:er of Justice, Hr . Speaker, i£ he has tabulated the number of replies ye t received from the Stat:us of !<omen in the city of Corner Brook or or. the West Coast?

If he has tab_ulated the number as yet? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hl.nister of Justice . MR. HICKMAN: I have not, but there are a large number f rom the l~est Coast. Last Saturday I think it was or the Saturday before las·t under the leadership of the Corner Brook group as well as another group in Corner Brook there was a very ~~cellent seminar held, representatives from the Depart:ment of Justice par ticipated as well~ and I thank the hon. gentleman for giving me the o-pportunity to commend these ladies £or the ~~cellent l eadership they are shoWing in Western Newfoundland. SO-m: HON .

MEMBERS: Rear, hear! -\ :188 .. :. r. )

March 8, 1978, Tape 63, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAI<ER: The hon. member for St. John's West. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Is it correct that water rates in the City of St. John's are about to be drastically increased by about four times, from thirty dollars a year per household to about $120 a year? And is it that this increase is being brought in or will be brought in with the approval of the Minister? MR. SPEAI<ER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the water rates of the City of St.

John's are totally controlled by the city and what they set as water rates is entirely up to them. MR. NEARY: No, it is not such thing. The minister has to approve these rates. DR. KITCHEN: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. gentleman for St. John's West, a supplementary. DR. KITCHEN: I asked the question, is this increase being brought in with the approval of the minister? Or will it be brought in with the approval of the minister? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing does not approve increases or decreases in taxes in the City of St.

John's as covered in the City of St. John's Act. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAI<ER: A final supplementary. Then I hac indicated that I would recognize the hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage. <" ~ 189

March 8, 1978, Tape 63, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is it not correct that the Minister of Municipal Affairs has to approve the budget of the City of St. John's? And if so,in approving this budget would not one of the matters be the revenue, the increase in taxes and so forth? Would the minister not have to approve this? Is the approval in the hands of the minister? MR. W.N.ROWE: Of course he would. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the hon. member's first question is no and therefore the other questions do not require an answer. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage followed by the hon. gentlemen for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir and Terra Nova, time permitt~ng. MR. J. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the new Minister of Transportation and Communications. No doubt the minister heard that the Gaultois students had to turn back on Sunday morning because of the fact that they were on too small a boat to get across Hermitage Bay.

Would the minister tell the House if he would reconsider the position of the often asked for ferry between Hermitage and Gaultois, it being the only island in Newfoundland so sadly neglected in this respect? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. DOODY: In answer to the hon. member's question, Mr. Speaker, the answer is obviously yes, we will reconsider and will continue to do everything we possibly can to remedy the situation. I am well aware of the unfortunate conditions. That was one of the things l that struck me a little while ago in this hon.

House,when '• 190

March 8, 1978, Tape 63, Page 3 -- apb MR. DOODY: a question was asked. Or at least during support of a petition, the hon member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) mentioned his district as having one of the worst transportation problems in the Province of Newfoundland. The first thing that crossed my mind were the people from Burgeo who werevisiting with me this morning, and the people of Gaultois who are here this afternoon. I think that their transportation problems are certainly a great deal more onerous.

I certainly hope the divorce rate is not as great as the hon. member indicated it is so in Conception Bay South, but I do not think that that is really true either. It has not changed that drastically since I left the district. To get more to the point and to be more direct in answering the hon. member's well placed question, the Province will do everything it possibly can, under the constraints that it faces; it will look again at the problem of that ferry service. I sincerely hope that something will be done. I cannot honestly say at this point whether it can or not. MR. J. WINSOR: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. J. WINSOR: I thank the minister for that reasonable reply. Further to that, will the minister tell the House if he would reconsider the burdensome retail sales tax imposed on vessels of 300 tons or less? They are also doing a ferry service in areas for freight and other things. In many areas, small communities, people have to be moved by that method. There are many areas in Newfoundland where boats in this category are doing a very important job and it is a rather burdensome tax on the small boat operators. Would the minister give me an answer to that,please? ' 191

March 8, 1978, Tape 63, Page 4 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. DOODY: I would certainly like to be in a position to give an answer to that. Obviously, as Minister of Transportation and Communications I have little or no control over the reta'il sales tax application. It gives me a great deal of pleasure to be able to say that after four years of involvement in that particular area. I am sure the han.

Minister of Finance and the President of Treasury Board and Cabinet generally will be looking at all these aspects of taxation and where they are most onerous and where they are most inequitable. And we will be looking at them during the forthcoming budgetary process and beyond that I certainly cannot go at this point, Your Honour. MR. SPEAKER: I had indicated I would recognize the hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir next. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, we have noted the continuing absence from the House of the Minister of Rural Development.

I had a question for the Premier on the subject but we cannot seem to keep the Premier in the House either so I will go back to the subject which has just been raised by my colleague from Fortune Hermitage, the question of the ferry service that would serve not only the community of Gaultois in my colleague's district, but also the community of McCallum. That proposed ferry service which the former, now deposed,Minister of Transportation approved and called tenders on, Mr. Speaker, that service is still not into effect, of course. Tenders were called, four tenders were received and no tender was ever awarded.

That was two years ago. I wond~r if the new minister, the new 192

March 8, 1978, Tape 63, Page 5 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: bright, polished Minister of Transportation - I have no questions for him about Burgeo,as much as I would like to, today because he answered them all in very admirable fashion this morning; we had an excellent meeting with him - but I do want to put to him the question as· it relates to my part of the district, McCallum, and, of course, my colleague's community of Gaultois. Will the minister - or is it the minister's intention now to call new tenders,to issue a new tender call for the service?

It is my understanding that the service has been approved by his department, by his predecessor, the now deposed Minister of Transportation. Is it his intention to call new tenders on the project? And if so, could he indicate just how soon this could be done? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. DOODY: No, there are several areas here that the hon. member has brought to my attention. One of them is that my hon. predecessor is also going to be my successortwhich is perhaps good news but nonetheless startling so quickly after my appointment.

The other is the announcement of the calling of tenders for the ferry service to McCallum. I have really no background knowledge on that and I would have to look into it and see what has been done and what plans are in progress in that area. I really cannot tell you anything beyond that at this point. I do not honestly know. ORDERS OF THE DAY ' ~93

:,larch 8, 1978 Tape No. 64 Nll- 1 !!R. SPEA.'ZER: It being Private Hembers Day, I call motion three. The han. Leader of the Opposition. Sm!E HON. i·!EMBERS: Hear , hear! HR. Il.N. ROWE: I am started to get swell-headed over here, Mr. Speaker, at the tumultuous applause every time I spring to my feet. Great stuff! AI.'! HON. !!EHBER: ~eware: :·!R. 1-1. :N. ROlfE : ------- Is that right? So you think I should keep my paranoia pills handy? ~r.

Speaker, before launching into the burden of this private members motion on a very important subject, Labrador and Labrador's development, I wanted to very briefly in thirty seconds or so just make sure that I confirm for the record of the 3ouse since there was no opportunity to do so, and this being International ITomen's Day, the unequivocable support of this side of the House for the concept expressed in the brief from the Newfoundland Status of Homen Council to the effect that a spouse's contribution, particularly a woman's contribution, if she is in the home and not out working,for example, be econgmically recognized as a contribution to the matrimonial property of that marriage for all purposes during the marriage and if through some mishap or chance the marriage should dissolve by death, divorce, dissolution, that the matrimonial property acquired during the marriage be shared equally.

We stand for that fair, equitable, reasonable principle, 11r. Speaker, and we urge the :·linister of Justice to bring legislation before this House as soon as possible to implement that fair and equitable principle of social policy. SOME HON. l®!BERS: Hear, hear! :·!R. '' .N. ROlfE: Now, Sir, I have introduced a resolution before the House which in economic terms is the perhaps single most important resolution or policy which our party and this caucus stands for. There are a number,of course,of very important economic policies. This is one of the t~•o or three most important economic policies.

It deals with the int~grated, the inter-locking development 194 ~-, ., '

:·arch 3 , 1978 Tape No . 64 ~~ - 2 '·m. \~ . ::. ROllE: of the resources o: L.:bracior.

Traditionally 1 believe for t:le last num!>er of years, scores of yea rs, couple of hundred years that por tion of qu.r Province of )lel;foundland and Labrador called Labrador has been exploi::ed and treated as if it ..,ere some kind of an e conomic appendage on che provinc e , as if it ~-:ere some kind of an economic colony to be e."ploited for the benefit of ot her people and not t~e people who happen to· be res ~ ciog in Labrador and in many cases not even for t!:te ;?eopl e t~h o happen to be resiciin& i n t:te province as a r,1hole.

It has often been exploited for t he net bene£:.t of other people s living in other coun=ries . I will no_t re :;~ d .... 195

~larch 8, 1978 Tape 6.5 r:c - l ~'R. IV. ~1. ROVE: the resolution, Sir. There are a number of points which I will be dealing ~lith singly on t~e resolution, but before doing so, let me say that I raised the substance of this resolution with the Prime ~inister of Canada about ten days ago and had a lengthy discussion "ith him onit together uith the hon. Don Jamieson, t~e ~1inister of External .\ffairs, :Tewfoundland's !:!inister in Ottaua.

And the Priir.e "inister indicated to ne that he considered this con cell t, Sir, this concept of integrated ,total )'ackage rlevelopment of :·Te,.foundland and Labrador's resources - Labrador's resources for the benefit of Labrador and that part of the Province - he treated that as a •;erv hold and creative concept t~hich he would have no hesitation as a leader of the federal government in supporting t-rhole~eartedly so far as federal jurisdiction exists in the area.

And he co~firmed this, Sir, at the i!ational Policy Convention of the Liheral Party publicly on television for the nation when I put the same question to him in a public forum. I asl:e~ him if the Government of Canada would assist us in developing Labrador like that in the way I have mentioned, anc:l he indicated without any equivocation t~hatsoever that he t~ould support that concept.

Then, Sir, <le put that resolution, a similar resolution to the one on the Order Paper today, put the resolution to the Liberal Party of Canada Convention in Ottawa and it was passed, Sir, unanimously, first of all by the AtlRntic caucus in that convention and supported by the .'\.tlantic caucus: it t~as then passed unanir.1ously hy a works~op of several hundred people who partici)'ated in the debate: and then, Sir, it was put to the plenary session of the Yational Convention and it was supported unanimously by all several thousa:' .d delegates present and has l:Jecome part of the nolicv of t~.e national Liberal Party of Canada.

And, Sir, one of the proudest moments of my life, and I am sure, of the life of the member for St. John's \lest (nr. Hubert Kitchen),the President of the nrovincial Libt>ral Party, vas the •,;ay the :re>·7f0\mdland c1elegation conducted themselves during t'1at convention 0n this ?articular policy matter especially. There '~as no • leaders'lip auestion involved, it '"as policy - pure nolicv - anc-1 our 196

' 'arch 8, 1978 Tape 65 'SC - 2 delegation of lQO or so delegates went to these workshops, Sir, and supported the resolution- this one particularly, and the ot~er ones as tvell- supported them, spoke in favour of them, voted in favour of them, organized. themselves into a very effective lobby and got this passed unanimously by the Liberal Party of Canada. .<\nd it now, as I say, has become part of the policy of one of the great political parties of this country. '"r. Speaker, important uoints that are raised in the resolution I <1'111 deal ,;ith separately and '!)riefly.

One of the points mentioned imulies that <Te should not be satisfier! 1dth merely lookin11; <'.t the feasibility of the r.ull Island project and the Lmver Churchill l<iver - not to be satisfied 1·Tit!J. that - 'l:lut that ,,.e should look as a nation and as a ])rovince at the feasibility of developint~ all t~e vast reMaining T)Otential and reservoir of hvdro electrical energy in Labrador. The potential, Sir, is trenendous.

The various rivers in Labrador, as my hon. friend from Naskaupi tvell knows, can be grouped I suppose into four major drainage regions - I think it is important that members of the House be aware of the facts of the case in Labrador if they are not already, anc'. members of the press as 1Vell, and members of the general public - four major drainage regions that can be harnessed to produce vast quantities of hydro electrical energy.

First of all, of course, is the ~. reat Churchill niver, includin~ the Unper Churchill Basin already developed and the tower Churchill Basin 1vhich has not yet been develoned and which is in the process of having its feasibility examined. In the Hoper Churchill Basin, as is '"ell known, !:he Churchill "alls plant is nmv in operation and is producing some 5,225 megawatts of electrical power, one of the biggest developments in the 'vorld, x<r. Speaker. 1.97

~larch 8,1978 Tc:.pe No. o6 AH-1 :·lR. W. ~. H.Q\,""E: Unfo:.:tunately the lilajor portion of the benefit of e:e Upper Churchill power accrues to the province of Quebec at the present time. And I clo hope taat ><hen the Premier of this Province meets with t:mt shre,~d and wily and cunning pr~"llier of Quebec, Rene Levesque, they hold a firm position on behalf of this Province with the intention of getting back - gettin,s back because w€ ,1ave th'e power and the right, the morale rigi1t to do so, getting bacl< our fair share of th,_, value of the Upper Ck ... rchill power.

In the LmoJer Churchill river basin, Sir, Gull IslanJ for example ;,as a potential as everyone knm•s of some 1500 or so mega"ratts and also of course i.."lclud.ed in the Lower Churchill river basin as potential :1ydro electrical sources are Huskrat Falls or the ='ig River and t he :linipi I guess is the pronunciation f.:.r a cot:al of just over JQGO !!le;,;auatts of potential :1yuro electrical pover development freE! these sources in the Lm-1er Ci;e~rc:lill river basin, some t:~ree-fiftLs of the power presently prociuceci by the !Jpper Churcbill Jevelopme:J.t.

Then in tile Southeast Labrador river basins incluJing a :tumber of rivers- five or six rivers there, some of t:1e well-known ones being of course the Paradise, the Alexis and the Pinv ;are ami there are tviO or three others as well, the Eagle ~ver for exanple, with hydro electrical power potential of some 610 megawatts or just over 600 meGawatts. :-lorth Labrador river basins inclut.le the :iaskaupi for example, the Big and then a number of uther rivers wi1ich I ,;ill have to ask the nemLer for llas k e.upi to pro~ounce. Ti1ey are beyonci :uy pronunciation capacity,I must ad!'it.

They have. a total of some 700 megawatts of electricity. fl.Ild t.1en, Sir, we com" to the interprovincial river basins. Now these five river systems involving the Romaine aud the Little Hecatir..a, St. Augustin, St. Pauls River and tne Natashquan - is that the pronunciation? - all have a portion of t"eir clrainage basins located in Labr aclor, Mr. Speaker, but c;tey ,, -198

:·!arch 8,1970 Tape No.66 /l.ll-2 flow ~-nto the provi.-1ce of Quebec and the hydro electrical pm.rer potential of these interprovincial rivers is about - these figures are rough,obviously - is about 3350 megawatts. A very sizable, vast even hydro electricial potential tllere 1 again something over three-fifths the size of the Upper Churc~ill, one of the largest in the 1mrld.

Studies have been taken,I understand,and are in progress now to evaluate the possibility of diverting the i1ead1.raters of some of these rivers into the drainage basins of tile Upper and the Lower Cimrchill, >ri-.ich is again a technical feature which gives us a ueas'-!re of control over our m;n destiny when dealing ~:ith Quebec on tile total development of the i1ydro electrical sources in La~rador. ':i1e hydro electric potential, Sir, e:{clusively within Labraci.or of the Lo>Ier Cimrc.::lill basin, tl1e Southeast Labrador river oasins and ti1e cfort11 Labrador river basins which I have mentioned is about 4330 :uega>latts,or a little more than four-fifths of that of the Cilllrchill Falls development.

The potential,incluc.ling t;1e interprovincial rivers, the ones that flow from Labrador into Quebec that I have mentioned is about 7680 me6a•1atts or just about i1alf again of that produced by the Upper Cimrchill Falls. In other words, Sir, there remains,including the five great interprovincial rivers and the others that I have mentioned, there remains unJeveloped in Labrador about one anci. one half or so - I am not quibbling about figures on this, but about one and one half times tile potential of the vast, tremend.:ms, historic .. md momentous in every way Upper Churchill development of several years ago.

I just give these facts, Sir, to indicate to the House and to anyone else ''ho is interested the tremendous reservoir and potential w11ich still remains iu Labrador to be tapped a.11:i developed and w;lich can ~e tapped and developed. I hope the feasibility studies can bear this out for the benefit of this Province, at least most of it,;lith the exception of perhaps a shared :._Jortion of the interprovincial rivers. :199

March 8, 1978 Tape 67 PK - 1 Mr. W. Rowe: And we believe, Sir, in this party that the feasibility of developing the total potential of the Labrador hydro electrical sources as one vast interlocking system and project should be determined by the Provincial Government and by the Federal Government. Because the outcome of such a feasibility study of course could have great impact on other questions such as the financial feasibility of bringing power to the Island of Newfoundland as a part of such an overall development.

It may not be feasible on the development of Gull Island alone, for example, to think in terms of bringing power across to the Island. Nobody knows the answer to that. Perhaps with the overall interlocking development of the total hydro package, Sir, we could have a more feasible situation where a tunnel across the Straits or the new technological developments which you have all heard of of bringing the line across, not underground but in some other way1 can be examined and made feasible. Sir, the second feature of the resolution deals with a chance in attitude towards the development of Labrador generally.

We must have in this Province, this government, this House, the people of this Province must have a change in attitude regarding the use of Labrador power and the use of Labrador raw materials.

Our attitude must move away from some kind of a hazy concept that some people have that hydro electrical projects are to be developed for the construction jobs which the project may produce during the term of construction, as important as that is, while the industry from the hydro development and the other jobs from the hydro development connected with other raw materials go elsewhere out of this Province altogether, and particularly out of Labrador after the construction phase is completed. We believe, Sir, that this Province, particularly the Labrador

section of the Province, must get the greatest possible benefit from hydro development both in the long term as well as the short term. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~ ~0

~larch 8, 1978 Tape 67 PK - 2 ~IR . W. ROWE: We believe that foreign capital by all means must be attracted in to develop the Lower Churchill and the other pro jects I have mentioned. By all means gee foreign capital in, and Canadian capital, but we also insist, Sir, that when these negotiations are going on and these feasibility studi es are taking place that the idea of foreign ownership or control of any aspect·of these developments be rejected at the beginning, and that position be made clear at the beginning.

We believe tha t the hydro resources of Labrador must be owned by the people of this Province and nobody else, and that the people of the Province must get the fullest possible advantage from the ownership and control of the development:. And we believe, Sir, tha t the hydro electrical developments in Labrador must be used to attract industry to Labrador as well as to the Island par t of the Province, industries which use power, particularly industries based on the other natural resources of Labrador .

I believe, Sir, we must change completely the attitude and the idea that raw materials can be dug out of the ground or developed otherwise in Labrador and shipped out of Labrador to some other place and processed, processed in some other place 'Nith the help of hydro electrical power from Labrador, and a finished product produced from the labour, from the jobs of people elsewhere with the economic benefit of those jobs going elsewhere. We believe, Sir, that the primary jobs based 201

::arch u, 1978 Tape :<o. 68 RT-1 '-::R. Inc. ROWE: on the processing of Labrador materials must remain in Labrador and that the service jobs associated with any industries in Labrador must remain in Labrador. To me it is a ridiculous spectacle to see some minerals shipped down into New Yor!c State by a railway or a road leading out of Labrador, and at the same time, hundreds of miles of transmission line leading out of Labrador through Quebec down to New York State, and the raw material and our hydro electrical power used in Ne\~ York State somewhere to produce a finished product.

That is something that we in this Province, especially we who are entrusted with trying to do what is in the public good) that is an idea that must in all feasible cases be rejected utterly, and we must replace it with the idea and the view of developing Labrador resources, Labrador raw materials, in conjunction with the vast hydro resources in Labrador.

That includes minerals, it would include fish, forestry products and if, as and when commercial finds of offshore oil and gas are discovered - if they are not discovered already - at such time as they are put into some form of production or processing, that Labrador be the place where the processing is done if at all feasible in conjunction again with the vast hydro electrical resources which we have.

And in terms of the service jobs, Sir, we must not allow again the situation to grow up where service industries for example can take place in Seven Islands and service an industry in Labrador West, Labrador City for example, and a city of 30,000 or 40,000 people grow up based on servicing one of our primary industries in Labrador. Let us make sure that as a Government and as a people all servicing jobs possible are located in this Province on the island portion or in Labrador.

Another point, Sir, contained and implicit in the resolution is that any power not immediately usable in Labrador or on the Island of Newfoundland can be exported certainly for the use 202

March a. 1978 Tape No. 68 RT-2 MR. WM. ROWE: particularly of other provinces of Canada. But, again, there must be an insistence on this basic concept that any such export contracts must be short term contracts.

The contracts must be such that power can be recalled for use in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador when necessary and to make sure that the price received by this Province for the sale of our electricity outside the Province is in accordance with the true market value and can be adjusted upward as time goes on so that, again, this Province ~•ill get the full financial value for all electricity which must be exported because it cannot be used at a particular time for industry, commerce or domestic use within this Province.

And we believe, Sir, that once this change in attitude from the traditional position that Labrador is an exporter of raw material and Labrador is an exporter of hydro electrical energy for use and benefit of people elsewhere, the public services and facilities necessary to develop Labrador economically and industrially will necessarily follow or be contemporary with such developments.

This would include, for example, the concept of developing a port - and I would like to hear the ideas of my honourable friend opposite - on the coast of Labrador called, for example, Port Labrador which could be kept open perhaps in the Straits area for most, if not all, of the year with facilities and services there, Sir, for shipping out processed materials and so on from Labrador, and also with a railway system and/or a road system, or both, or at least a road system or whatever is determined to be economically necessary. MR. NEARY: MR. WM. ROWE: Electric trains, and we can use electricity. Exactly!

That is another concept as well. From the coast of Labrador to central Labrador, Happy Valley/Goose Bay area, Mr. Speaker, on to western Labrador, Wabush/Labrador City area, and on into tentral Canada and into the heartland of North America so that 203

"arch 8, 19 7il Taue :1 <:1 IB-l Labrador is linked up economically by a great transnortation link v!hich "auld bring it into the mainstream of North American life and get rid of this idea and this concept of it being the country that r~d gave to Cain,sornewhere shoved off there in the North Atlantic Ocean to be exploited for the use of people elsel'here.

Sir, the final point that I would like to make about this total integrated concept, this interlockin!?: concept of using the natural resources and the ener~ in Labrador in Labrador itself is that if, as and when this kind of a conceot can be C,rought into operation, then it should onlv be done so after and •-Tit!"l the full consultation of all oeoples in Labrador. ~ative peoples, settlers t~ere should be totallv and completely involved.

Thev should involve the!'!selves and thev should ':Je involved bv the ~overni!lent as .~rouTJS, as inrlivicluals, as lobby 1;roups, as various institutional grouus and so on and so forth involved in this TJrocess an~ in the decision ~aking so that they are genuinely and feel that they are nart of the economic and political reality of this Province. And also there must be a full consideration, a full recognition of the need to protect comnletely so far as is reasonable, to the fullest reasonable extent, the natural environment in that,one of the most beautiful spots on the face of the earth, Labrador.

The natural environment must be protectec:', not only for the use of people '"ho might not necessarily be involved in the economic develop~ent but for neoule "ho .vant to admire again this vast reservoir of natural beauty represente:l in several great parts of Labrador. Sir, I believe~as a person who has studied the situation and looker! at the si.tuation,t!"lat the economic center of gravity of this Province t<Till of necessity move 'Torth and move towards Labrador. I believe that the Island portion of the Province will always retain its importance in forestry and minerals and so on and in the fisnery.

But I do believe that if the Labrador portion of our Province is fully developed in a rational and sane '~ay as I hope I have articulated .~ J 204

':arch 8, 1~78 Tane (ig IB-2 here today, that the economic center of gravity of this Province must of necessity and naturally nove l'lorthward and that to l!le ~1oul<l be one of the greatest things that ever hao,ened in the history of this Province ':>ecause it would have the effect of integratin~ the t1vo areas of our Province. It would have the effect psycologically on the people of Labrador~ "!nd if this does in fact haopen over the next number of years we can exoect to have a much greater population in Labrador.

If this rloes in fact happen, then for the first time in our history I believe the people of Labrador, a much greater population, will feel that it is really and truly a oart of the political mainstream of the Province, the economic mainstream of the Province, a part of the Province which is decidinp; as a Province its mm destiny as a region and as a Province.

Sir, I believe, and I do not think I R.m being an alarmist when I say this, I believe that unless something along the lines that I am talking about - and I would like to hear very seriously the remarks of my han. friend from Naskaupi (Mr. f'.oudie) on this point - unless somethin~ along the lines of what I have talked about, this total package development, this involvement of the people, this integration of the two parts of our Province as one Province, one vastly prosoerous Province, unless this takes place then I am afrai0 that perhaps the gentleman I referred to earlier, P..ene Levesque, m.ay not be far wrong vhen he said SOT'le ti"'e recently,and has been sa•1:.ng publicly and privately, something to the effect t':at r.abrador, he says, will inevitably become part of Quebec because the people of Quebec Hill not be afraid to settle in Labrador and develop Labrac'lor themselves. there and moving in there and so on. 1-ihen dicl he say that?

They will ~e settling I'R. PF.CKFOF!l: '·!:!' . :.r . P.Ol-'F.: I read it in one of the newspapers a year ago as having been said at some party function or other. 205

·' : rarc:'l 8, 1978 Tape fi9 D-3 Shortly after ~e ,at elected ne sai~ t~at . 206

t!arch 8, 1978 Tape olo. 70 ..nr - 1 when the people of Labrador will determine their own destiny, And I remember that was back in November after he got elected. They will Je'"erm:Lne their own destiny. I was in Labrador when Rene Levesq11e touched down in \·labtosh and said it, made statements along those lines. ER. A.B. PECK FORD; ~~de statements along what lines? 1-!hat the hon. gentleman is saying is damaging. NR. F.:3. ROIJE. ---- ---- He said exactly what the hon. gentleman said. What is the hon. gentleman - Wait - I am glad Rene Levesque, Sir, has an advocate in this House.

Protecting that gentleman is a fine occupation for some member of this House. The hon. gentleman sitting there <!nd seriously saying that Rene Levesque has not indicated by word and deed that he is casting, he and his party are casting a jealous eye on Labrador. l!R. PEGKFORD: That is a lot different from what they were saying earlie~. !lR. :V. }i. ROWE: Do not bore us with weasel words. The point of the matter is that he has said :·IR. PECKFORD: Words are very important. Now usually - HR.

W.::L ROWE: He has said, Sir, that it is inevitable because the people of Quebec will settle Labrador, are not afraid to settle Labrador. He made the point that the people of Newfoundland will not settle Labrador in sufficient quantities. The people of Quebec will settle Labrador in sufficient quantities and therefore and then when they come to decide their own destiny,as they may be allowed to do at some point,it is inevitable that Labrador become part of Quebec. Now ~~hat I am saying is that it is up to us in this House and this province to prove him as a false prophet.

And this is the burden of all of my remarks here today, that unless Labrador is treated as the economic entity that it is and 1vith the importance that it has, the potential that it has,then we may find that Rene Levesque's prophesy may be a self-realizin8 prophesy. I do not think it •~ill be because I think we are going to have enough sense here in this Province on both sides of the House, if not this generation another generation of leadership, Hould have enough c; 207

~'-arch 8, 1978 Tape ~10. 7'J c!R. H.~ROl{E: sense to make sure that we do the proper things in Labrador and that Labrador and the _Is!and part of Newfoundland beco111e one great economic entity with Labrador no longer being exploited, with the people of Labrador involved in the political process and f~~~ing_that they are involved, not having the feelin& that they are contributing far more to the economy and the finances of the province than they are getting back,which Jaany have now.

You cannot talk to too many people in Labrador l'est particularily who do not feel that there is more money going in, far more money going in to the provincial coffers than is coming back to Labrador~and it is not even a selfish feeling. They do not say that money from Labrador Hest should cone back to Labrador ;iest. AN RON. HEMBER: (Ic-audJle). ciR. \LN. ROHE: Pardon? That is right. They are not say_ing that. They are saying that money going from Labrador West is not coming back into Labrador,period. It is not a selfish feeling. It is a regional feeling.

A feeling that Labrador should be getting more for its contribution. T.r!J.at I am saying is that it is up to us to make sure that the Labrador part of our province does-not feel like that any longer and no longer feels like it because they know and believe that they the~elves are an integral part of this province and the question of contribution hardly even arises because they know that their voices are being heard. They know they are a part of the political process. They know that decisions are not going to be Jaade in spite of them or without their kno•dedge and they are involved in the decision !llaking.

And once we arrive at that kind of a position, Sir, with the kind of integrated develop~nt I am talking about and people being brought into the mainstream of political and economic life of this province,then I think that He will have gone a very long way towards the proper destiny of this province. And if we do not do it then I am afraid that He may be facing if not disaster then something somewhat short of disaster - a province "hich will drag along at the economic tail end of Canada for 2U8

~ !arc~ S, 19 /8 Tape :·o . 70 ,:R. '1 , '!. RO.-IZ: enotiler ht.:ndr ed years 1 not: fully develo ping i t s econcmic capacity and potential, receiving handouts rather than , a~; I ave mention11:d nany til!les before , being a provin ce which has the pr osperity and t he pride and the dignity, regional and provinc ial , l~hich comes from pr osperity and t he reeling that we are in ch.ar ge of our own e conomic fate . We do have our destiny in our own hands and we can develop it properly for our own benefi t. And t herefore, 209

"arch 8, 1~78 Tape 71 I"!l-1 'IR. vi. P_OFE: :·!r. Speaker, I have no hesitation, in fact I ent~usiastically commend this resolution to the Rouse for passage and for consideration ann I look for"<lard to hearing the views, particularly of my friend from Naskaupi district (1'!r. r.oudie). Thank you, Sir. "R. SPEA.XF.R: The han. member for Naskauoi. )~,. GOUDIF: I am not quite sure '"here to begin.

First of all, I think I should again congratulate the T.eader of the Opposition C'r. ~·1. ltoHe) for moving this resolution, for getting the topic on the Order Paper so that -~e can indeed have an exchange of words and thoughts and feelings about Labrador. c·Je had a very interesting debate in the han. House last year on a little bit of a different resolution,although I think perhaps that one and this one tie in together and I aQ looking fo~•ard to an equally interesting debate on the resolution which I have had placed on the Order Paoer and hopefully 'rill be called out ~efore this sitting is through.

I think perhaps I might like to comment on some of the remarks put forward by the Leaner of the Ooposition (Yr. '•'. "owe) when he introduced this resolution for discussion and perhaps deal 'nth some of the imnlications of the resolution pr~s~ntlv being discussed. The han. gentleman mentionert that this is now the economic policy of the Opposition in this Fouse and also made reference to the fact that it has been adopted,I believe, by their counteroarts in Ottawa, the r~vernment of Canada.

The only question I have - and I believe this is a valid question in terms of that idea of an economic policy coming into effect - is '"hether or not this nolicy will be binding on behalf of the Government of Canada and if so , I wonder how quickly v7ill this sort of thing fall into place? I certainly hope it is going to be quick. I am not saying this in a derogatory manner at all.

I just hope and pray that this sort of a thing does continue to come into effect because I would also like to point out~ and I will he pointing out during my fe'" remarks ,that '~e are tryin!! on this side, we are trying to make some steps in terms of solving some 210

)'arch B, 197R Tape 71 IB-2 of the problems that exist in Labrador today. I had the pleasure of taking

part in a seminar last vTeek which ~vas sponsored by the University of this Province, the ~!emorial l!niversity. I was a part of the panel, a panel of four,and the topic for discussion that night was Labrador in their continuing series of discussions on development ~vithin this Province as a whole. They passed out an information !Jaclcafe at that seminar to try and highlight some points made by different groups ~vithin the Province, be it the University, be it groups within Labrador or whatever.

So I <rould like to quote some of the information presented in that information package <.Jith tl-Je intent of ma~~ing a point about some of the resources in the ~orthern part of our Province,about some of the sentiment of the people in the Horthern part of our Province and then go on to try and make a few points of my m·m.

For instance,the Labrador Resources Advisory Council, as I think all hon. members are aware, was funded a little over a year ago initially by government and their funding >vas rene•·red v1hen their first budget was presented and hopefully will continue to be renevred for years to cot'l.e because I think they are performing a very valuable service in terms of, not only providing information to the government of this Province but also interpreting re~lations and highlighting some concerns of regulations to the people, many people of Labrador who may not have a full understanding or even a partial understanding of regulations in terms of resource development. 13ut for instance one direct quote - much of this was by the Labrador Resources Advisory r.ouncil,by the way - one of the concerns they brought up <Vas, ""uch of Labrador's >vealth is the kind e<hich tends to flow South in raw materials to feed the appetites of Southern industry and to leave behind it the kind of desolation we cannot blame on God.

Labradorians have been saying for years that an attempt at solving the numerous social and economic problems in Labrador hy unwisely encouraging quid: development" - and I think 211

~·arch a, 1<_178 Tape 71 IB-3 '~. :0 IE: t ha t is vecy lmportant, quick development - '\ri thout ;m e e on the possible consequences ~~11 open a Pando r a's box of sorrows and set backs for its people. A realistic anproach to resource development, conservation, land rights and governoent representation, " they assert ''is the basis for pToper realization of Labrador's r,:~ otential.

The peop le h ave been s ayi ~ p Labra rior is not a chill• ware house of resources for the rest of ::ort! •• -r.erica but a ~1oo e fo r 35 , ~00 pers ons who ~ant to ~e ~overned accordion to t heir wish es and to t ~e realities of t heir life . ' O·ay! There are some things t.."tere which some c.emoer s ,-,ay :~i s h to disag ree t~it'l, ' r;overned according o t heir ;nsh es · , for instance.

Jnay not '!>a somet..~ing t.~:;,t ;e i:l Labrado r ca:J re a isti c llv P.xpect to t he nt h rie ree as ~ oul :.e t!1e C"se of,?erhaps,someone O'l t h« Island paJ;~ of t he 0 rovince '-"ant i ,g .e s~me thing an d pe r h?~S not Qeing ab l e to ac h ieve it . .. 212 . I

March 8, 1978 Tape 72 PK - 1 ~:!R.. GOUDIE: But I think development with or through consultation with the people of any given area of this Province is the way that our development should be approached, and that does not necessarily have to mean of course that I am talking of Labrador solely. The native peoples and the white settlers outside the main centers fish along the Labrador Coast and return to their villages in Fall and Winter. Those in the fishery also hunt, trap, cut wood and pick berries. Their way of life is dependent on renewable resources.

Add to these concerns the temperatures of the North, the weather conditions,the climate, and you have a situation in the Northern part of Labrador,for instance,where you have permafrost, and the problems that that presents to industrial development. So there are many, many concerns. The han. gentleman, the Leader of the Opposition,made reference to the mineral wealth of Labrador West.

And to quote again,"The mining industry of Newfoundland and Labrador is our leading resource industry 1 the other resource industries being fisheries, forest, and agricultural products as measured by the total value of all commodities produced and exported." The final Statistics Canada figure for the total value of mineral productions in this Province in 1975 was $551 million, and perhaps during his comments, the Minister of Mines and Energy may be able to update some of these figures so that we are aware of the recent dollar values placed on the iron ore productions of Labrador West.

This paper deals with many different examples of the benefits accruing from that resource in the West, and I am sure that during his comments the han. member for Menihek (¥.r. Rousseau) will be enunicating government policy, and remarking on this type of thing since it concerns particularly his own district and the main resource which is being harvested by the people in that district. I am particularly interested of course in the resource- I am sorry, the hydro development in Labrador because, well, the Churchill River is my district. It is as plain and as simple as that, it bisects it completely.

Starting in the West what is now known as the Smallwood reservoi~,formally the Lobstick Lake and 213

March 8, 1978 Tape 72 PK - 2 Mr. Goudie: Michilamau Lake area of Labrador, is the Westernmost part of district, and then the Community of North West River and the Community of Mud Lake, and Happy Valley-Goose Bay is on the Easternmost part, and that is where the Churchill River empties. So hydro - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. GOUDIE: AN HON. MEMBER: CAPT. E. WINSOR: (Inaudible). I am sorry? (Inaudible). I suppose the member (inaudible) Now I can go back twenty years or more living on the banks of that rivert~quatters rights we should probably be using MR.

GOUDIE: I think I might very well one of these days have certain squatter's rights to the Churchill River, ye~---- ~- _you are living on the banks of that river since 1944, and prior to that,as the hon. member for Fogo (Capt. Winsor) is aware, iny father and a great number of other trappers, be they Indian, Inuit_or Settler, paddled that river every year. I will not, Mr. Speaker, get into my usual tirade of the stories about big fish and everything else that I used to do last year. CAPT. WINSOR: That was good. AN HON. MEMBER: Sixty pound lake trout. MR. GOUDIE: That is right,sixty pound lake trout. MR.

PECKFORD: Forty pound last year; you do not know what the hon. member is going to say next. MR. GOUDIE: They grow in leaps and bounds, Mr. Speaker. They grow in leaps and bounds.

But anyway if anyone has seen a little piece of paper that is put out by the Labrador Resources Advisory Council is an artist's description of the Labrador flag, and the rationale __ on the back of that piece of paper for what we call the Labrador fla~ _ : _ it is not obviously officially recognized by the government of this Province or the Government of Canada, either one, but perhaps it is rather an expression of sentiment of the people in Labrador. But that rationale explains the importanee-of the waterways, the Chruchill River 214

~larch 8, 1978 Tape 72 PK- 3 }!R. GOUDIE: being probably tbe more prominent in Labrador, and the sea, and of course tbe snow and the land and what that lDf!!!I! t to us . And I think that is a very important point for any legislator or any governmen t to bear in mind in te=s of the feelings of people in Labrador, and that is the pride that the people there have as the people on the Island have, of having settled a particular part of the country. There are something like 35,000 people in Labrador at this point in time, not very many 1;:hen you consider the g~ographical size. 215 ;o

::arch C, 1973 Tape 73 :J:/ - 1 :·1 R • G G U 0 I E : Prior to the d~velopment of the mines in the west,· the !Jydro resources in the Churchill Falls area and the military operations at Goose Bay, how many p eo p 1 e were there i n L a brad or.? I do not h ave an exact figure but on the coast the population is some- thing in the vicinity now,I think,of G,OOQ and that, I Jelieve~has qro• .. tn a bit since ConfeJ'=ration. In the interio~you had a few traopers from i'!ud Lake and !lorth 1lest River 'tn ·1 the Traver- spine River as well.

There were four families there, I think, coupled with the Naskaupi and the ~ontagnais In a i an s ~~ h o travel 1 e d i n to the i n t e r i or . ' I y brot he r use~ to walk across the Labrador - ~ uebec ~or~er to hav e lunch from his cabin, that is how far inland he was. So the population was not all that areat. It has increased only since the actual industrial develooment has ben,un and that monstrosity of an ai~ force base at Goose Bay.

That little move,the installation of the American, Canadian and the British air forces~caused a bit of a problem to us and I am an example of that problem,I think, as we 1~ere all of a sudden exposed to a societ y, - where traditionally \·te v1ere used to living off the land,literally 1 there was no employment other than trapping or fishing unless you were lucky enough to get to work with the Hudson Say Com- pany or the French Trading Company in their days or the Grenfe:ll Mission,and not all that many people were employed, so what do you end up with?

A group of trappers and fishermen living off the land being exposed overnight to a society where you could walk into a personnel office, get a job, every tHo ~Jeeks huge sums of money in those davs - or in . . · 21.6

11arch 8, 1978 Tape 73 0'.4 - 2 HR. GOUDIE: t~fns of the L_St of living in those days - were all of a sudden put in your hands and away to go. There was no need to get an education other than high school. High school in the Goose Bay ~rea when I graduated was equivalent on the Island to a master's degree in terms of finding work and gettino l")aid~so as a result - and that is fine.

There were 3,000 or 4,000 or 5,000 ~ecole employed at these military installations, but, when you look twenty-five years later at what haopened when these installations closed down,and all of a sudden oeople were left in the situation where they had not received that piece of paper from a trades school or university or some ot~er form of institute that says you are hereby qualified to fix an automobile or weld or whatever, these peop1R, by the hundreds,were left without ari income and without any alternative emoloyment except,of cours•. t~e famous Labrador Linearboard mill.

There were not all that many people locally employed because there was a bit of an overlap between the close down of the base and the beginning of the woodcutting operations in that area. So, as a result, you have a more compounded situation, a more compounded oroblem in terms of unemploymept when the mill closed down because so many hundreds of people came in from the Island part of the Province and settled in the Happy Valley - Goose Bay area to take

part in that wood harvesting operation. I am not talking directly, I do not think, on the honorable member's resolution but it is all related to development and all related to problems which currently exist in Labrador. I made reference to some material \'I h i C h ~I aS d i S t r i bUt e d bY the U n i V e r S i t _\' l aS t , I'' e e k at the i r seminar. -· ·' 21.7

.iarch 8 , 197 8 Tape 73 D'{ - 3 :1 R. GOUDIE: And one of the points that they raised was our native gr oups, if you v1 ill, the il askaupi and l ontagnais,Inuit Association or Inuit people and the Inuit Association and thei r peo~le are centered mainly on coastal labraaor . Je, when I saJ, we am talkin ~ s~ecificall y of th e current gove r nment of this ooint in ti ~ e . 1 ha ve been d e~l i n g since l ast Octo be r wit h a qroble m whi ch has plagued s ~ ecificall ~ t ne inoian people of Horth ~4 est River fo r a considerable number of ye a rs because it is related to a traditio nal ~ ay of 218 " f t.

Tape cJo, 74 ,\li-1 ,iR, GOUDIE: life and ti1ank.full~· this ;nor.ling - as a matter of fact at a quarter past one tod..:.y- the final~ at least as far as I an concen1.~d, the final meeting concluded which I think is going to bring about the rather major change and improvement in terms of hunting regulations as the:/ relate to the Indian people of North West River. Prior to tiese dealings the Indi&, people of North West River were not entitled to auy more than I a;n in tems of bein3 o.!Jle to 30 to the country and get a caribou~wi1ich is tbeir traditional way of life.

A!l<l t:1eir tratlitional way of life~ C:epending on how you look at it:.can go bac:. as far as 50,000 years 1.·hen the first East Asian set foot on this continent, Or perhaps it was just an extansion of the other part of ti1e world,I do not know. The Beriug Strait, is it, ~fr. Speaker? AJ.~ HON. :-J:D-r:BER: ~!R. GOUDIE: Yes,Bering Strait . I do not know what happened to tr.at over the last 50,000 years \)ut they got across it somehow or other.

But an}"<ay in Labrador itself the :.askaupi and the l·:onta:;nais Inuit people are claiming that they have been in t:1at part of the country for at least 7000 years; they can document that, The Inuit on the coast are claiming something in the vicinity of J,OOO or 4,COO or perhaps even 5,000 years of occupation,living off the land up there. So when this Province joined Canada game laws all of a suduen began to be imposed on people not only in Labrador but obviously in all parts of the Province.

Prior to that people itarvested wildlife based on practicality alo:te. \f,1en you need meat or you need fish you go catch it. If you want to hunt in the Spring be~ause you do not have any food on the table,you go hunting for it. You are not allowed to do that anynore. i;;owever, there ••as an e..'tpression of inte!"est by the Indian people specifically of North \iest River to get back to their tratiitional way of life but they could not do that under existing hunting regulations. You are allotved one animal per person over ei~hteen years of age and if you get ten or fifteen 219

.i~rch o,l978 Tape No, 74 A.:I-2 MR. GOUDIE: people in tLe family livin;:; in a tent for three or four or five mouths of the year trapping,being hundreds of miles away from the nearest community it is a little ~ifficult to get out to the nearest Hudson's Bay store or any other store to pick up your grocaries for the ,,.eekend.

So the solution is to accomodate that effort Jj' tl·.e Indian people under axis ting regulations and that i1as now been changed to theo extent where t:wse people living off ti1e lau.u ·.vill be allowed to take one cariilou ).Jer l!"<elllber of their. family ·"p to - well,there is no maximum. If you 11ave t\lenty children in your family you car. .1ave t\veuty caribou. ~u1 • .-fUt<PliY: I ti"10usht it ,\olas d maximum of eight. riR. GOlJDIE: No. It used to be a waxiruum of eight up to last year but t:1at was changed last year.

The problem being the .::aribou herds in the Mealy i·lountains and tiH~ Red \vine Hountains, waich is 11earer Nortn West River than auy other huntint, area,are so depleted that you cannot .;et any animals ti1ere. However in tne North tnere is anywhere between 150,00() ana 2Uu,OOO caribou and these will now be harvested.

So that seep has been taken and nopefully it will solve their problem, Cf course it will solve tneir problem initially although there may very well be other problecs developing over the months ahead, There was an exception taken by two groups on ti1eo coast of Labrador and by t!1e hon. member for £agle River (Hr. Strachan) and I do ~lOpe that that hon. member will be here to take

part in tLle debate before theend. I understs...-.d there are 1!R. ~flllli'HY: They have a big storm in Corner Brook, HR. GOUDIE: There are weather problems on the coast. AN HON. dEL'LBER: Ei;;ht Jays. HR. GOUDIE: Ei;;nt days. Yes. I knm• of :;ther people who have been out there trying to get in and we have been trying to get out to Llak!::ovik for t~.1e ::1eetings whi~~. we:re suppose to t~k~ pL.Lce tb.:re. 220

.. arc!l " , 1S7" SO. J: hOI:. • i.E...: E"'S: ,..s. I.A>i..lJIE: .\..- 3 \.;ell perhilps wita the cot~binc:d ef:Corts vf cne faoeral zove r runeut, Hr . Spea~cr , aud t.tc provincial governLJent a.:>tJe of en~: cravel difficulties iu .:oastal laorador will be overcome ~ito t~~ tus:~llation of airst ~i ps anu ueacon s ~d iuproved air craft, we .:ope oy c:te - Gover=ent suusiciy . : ut. GOUl.lii:.: - 3overmn~nc subsiuy 3n<i a cila:lJC in aircraft oy ;.tu compru..y invo lved . .\:\)'\,·ay I •tad :or,oot te\1 221

!-larch 8, 1978 Tape No. 75 RT -1 MR. GOUDIE: where I was there for a second. There was exception taken to the slight change in policy in terms of hunting regulations as they relate to the Indian people of North West River. The thing is called a community council at Nain. I believe the Labrador Inuit Association - I could be correcteq on that - but I do know that the member for that district himself took exception, but not necessarily exception to the idea that the Indian people be allowed to hunt with the same quotas they have in the Northern Zone; he supported that.

What they were suggesting was that people from our area - when I say our area, the Happy Valley/Goose Bay, Mud Lake and North West River area - travel to Nain, acquire equipment from the community, and by equipment I mean snowmobiles, komatiks, and so on, and hire guides to take us in over the land to hunt the caribou. The argument being that the use of aircraft, which has become quite a popular means of travelling in across the country to get caribou in recent years, would be the beginning of the annihilation of 200,000 head of caribou in the Northern Zone.

One other factor to be considered, I think, is the fact that the caribou ·herd migrates between Labrador and Quebec, and that province is also harvesting a number of animalg from that same herd each year. I took exception to that and I take exception to it again now. I do not believe that the use of aircraft is going to mean the annihilation of that herd, simply because there are existing regulations which govern the use of aircraft. For instance, one is not allowed to fly from a given area into a caribou herd,, circle the country and try to locate that herd.

When leaving their community they are required to get a fly-out permit from the regional \Vildlife people in Labrador, and when that aircraft comes back with the hunters, whether they have or have not been successful in getting their caribou, the aircraft is checked, the sex of the animal is checked, it is checked for tags, and there seems -- to be a fairly efficient mechanism in place now to deal with that sort of a situation. I just wanted to clarify that position from my point 222

March 8, 1978 Tape No. 75 RT-2 MR. GOUDIE: of view. I do not think that the recent changes or recent accommodations under existing regulations are going to be harmful in any way to the herd. I believe there may even, eventually, be an effort made at least to look at the idea of perhaps transplanting caribou from the northern herd into at least the Red Wine. Mountains area with the hope - CAPT.

WINSOR: You are on a very interesting topic there, and judging from what one reads in the papers the people of Nain were complaining, and perhaps Hopedale and Davis Inlet. lvould the member feel that they, too, should be given the opportunity to fly into the herd and transport their animals or carcasses back to Nain or Hopedale or Davis Inlet, or whatever? It appears now if this new regulation which is now in effect - you know, the Indians or - another thing I am not clear on, is it only confined to the Indians, or to all residents of that area?

If they are going to fly directly from there in and land on a pond pretty close to the herd, how long or what is the size of the herd? Is there not a danger of killing off that herd? The seal propaganda will have nothing on it in a few years. MR. GOUDIE: I thank the bon. member for his question. First of all, it is the choice of anyone of course in Labrador and, I assume, in any other part of the Province to select their own method of getting into an area to htmt. Anyone in any part of Labrador can hire a plane and fly in to an area and not hunt caribou from the aircraft.

The aircraft has to land, drop off the people, the aircraft is gone, and then they walk from there on snowshoes to find the herd. Now, as I pointed out earlier, it is contrary to regulations for a pilot of an aircraft to circle any area of land to try to locate a herd. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. I believe some 223 ·-

March 8, 1978 Tape 76 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): hon. members are a little troubled by noise in the corridors. I would ask the constable if he could ensure that the noise is kept to a reasonable level. The hon. member for Naskaupi. MR. GOUDIE: Perhaps I am not speaking loud enough. Can every hon. member hear what I am saying? MR. MURPHY: Do not be so polite, boy, Be like the rest of us and shout out. MR. GOUDIE: The microphone is working. We were talking about the question of using aircraft and hunting caribou in Labrador. As I was mentioning,any person in Labrador can do that.

I have forgotten now the second part of the hon. member's question. One dealt with the use of aircraft, and what was the other ~art of the question? AN RON. MEMBER: Can the herds stand the hunting? MR. GOUDIE: Oh. There are - yes, okay. Can the herds stand the hunting? As I mentioned,there is somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 head of caribou in the Northern zone. Now according to our wildlife people the allowable yield per year is 10 per cent, which is what? 15,000 to 20,000 animals.

In the Northern zone right now~ these are not firm figures,but approximately 3,000 animals per year are taken; that is from the coastal communities of Labrador. I do not know how many animals are taken from the Quebec side, because they have a different set of regulations. In the community of North West River itself~assuming that every hunter or every family leader in the community were to go into the country and get his quota there would be no more than 500 animals killed at the most, because there are only 500 people there.

I would suggest that there is going to be considerably less than that because not every one is going to be living off the land, and it is only the people,you see,who live off the land in their traditional way of life who are allowed to take that many animals. If you are living in the community and you have a job, for instance,working somewhere else then you are only allowed one animal. So the herd~yes)can stand the.~ill I think. But as I pointed out there 224

March 8, 1978 Tape 76 PK - 2 Mr. Goudie: the difference in regulations in Quebec is they are allowed to hunt the animals on a sports basis, which I think is unjust, should not be allowed to be done. In this Province there is no mechanism that I know of now under the existing regulations that allows any one to go in to that Northern herd and hunt on a sports basis only. I can give you examples of certain members of a certain Airforce stated at Goose Bay over the years who flew over the herds in the Mealy Mountains and killed the animals off with machine guns from the helicopters.

One particular incident was related to me by a group of Indian people travelling out from the South of the Lake Melville area. They happened to be walking, hauling their sleds one Winter afternoon and heard a hElicopter fly over, and then heard what they considered to be a large amount of firing, went over to have a look and there were thirty-three caribou on the lake dead, The aircraft had not landed, there was no mark in the snow, They heard the chopper, there had to be an aircraft there, The animals were left, thirty-three caribou, and nothing done with them; they were"not even panched to save the meat. CAPT.

E. WINSOR: I had a similar experience when the Americans were there;the antlers were taken, the carcasses were all left. I saw five, but that does not happen now I hope. MR. GOUDIE: That is the type of thing which contributes to the decline of the caribou herd. AN RON. MEMBER: The Premier of the Province does that. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. GOUDIE: I am not going to deal with the activities of the Premier of the Province, but rather confine my remarks to - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

GOUDIE: One of the problems of dealing with that type of a situation is the lack in the past of adequate checks being carried out by either fisheries officials or wildlife officials or whatever, but that has changed. I do not think there is an aircraft coming out of a lake in Labrador now for instance where sports fishermen • are involved in the SUIIliller tha't is not checked, their quotas are not 225

March 8, 1978 Tape 76 PK - 3 MR. GOUDIE: checked. As a matter of fact,the fish camp owners in Labrador,all I believe without exception,stipulate that you are allowed to take one fish out of the lake or out of the area back home regardless of whether you are there for an hour or a week. It really does not matter. So there is some self-regulating going on 226 --

March 8, 1978 Tape No. 77 RT-1 MR. GOUDIE: in terms of the fish camp owners themselves. Another deterrent, I think, to the removal of animals in terms of caribou and moose from Labrador, one practice which has been carried on in the past apparently by some people who were involved in transportation in Labrador was to get a caribou carcass for a bottle of rum or a case of beer, or something like that, and bring it on down home. But that has changed. The regulations now stipulate that you are now allowed to transport out of Labrador any more than twenty pounds of caribou meat.

Of course, with proper enforcement of the law that is going to change the practices of the past. MR. MURPHY: If you wanted to give me twenty-five pounds of moose, hen. member, to take home (inaudible) I would not be able to bring it back to St. John's? MR. GOUDIE: You would be allowed to bring back twenty pounds. That is all, no more than that. In his remarks in opening the debate, the Leader of the Opposition made reference to a Port Labrador concept.

Of course~that ties in with so many other transportation requirements in Labrador that it is certainly an integral, or should be an integral part of any policy by any government to institute a properly set up mode or means of transportation in that part of the Province. I pointed out earlier that there is something like 35,000 people in Labrador, and I posed the question in the House before: How does one go about getting improvements in transporation in Labrador with so few people?

Do you have to get the people first, then bring the roads in; or do you bring the roads in, and then bring in the people and the indus