VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED , TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00P.M. - 6:00P.M. TUESDAY, MAY 10, 1983 NO. 37

May 10, 1983 Tape 1954 PK - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! Before we begin today 1 I have the pleasure of welcoming to our galleries thirty-two students from Caribmu Hill School in British Columbia with their two teachers,Ted Palmer and Jack Showers, and also thirty students from Grand Falls Academy 1 in the historic district of Grand Falls,and their teacher,Calvin Coish. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. S:'SAKER: Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS The hen. member for the Mr.

Speaker, I have a number of questions, but in the absence of the Minister of Health (Mr. Housel it is a little liketheplay Hamlet -without the Prince of Denmark in it. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Premier could tell me is the Minister of Health due in the House today? If so, ! will wait a little later in Question Period because they really are fairly detailed questions on the hospital situation. Does the Premier . or the House Leader (Mr. Marshall) know whether the minister will be here? PREMIER PECKFORD: No, I am not sure whether - . . the minister is going to turn up or not. I will check on it. MR.

ROBERTS: Well, I will pass to my colleague 1then, Mr. Speaker, and if the minister comes I have some questions on the situation with hospital beds. But it is unfair, I think 1 to expect the Premier to know that kind of detail , and so I will not address the questions to him. 4169

May 10, 1983 Tape 1954 PK - 2 MR . SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. member for Terra Nova . MR . LUSH : Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge), and it has to do with student aid . The minister will recall how concerned students and parents were in this Province when the government made some changes recently in the Student Aid Programme. It was my recollection that in a meeting with some of the students that the minister indicated that the government would be willing to change some of the rules .

So I am \-:ondering now,particularly in view of the recent decision of the fede ral government to bring about some changes with respect to student aid, what changes the minister has made or what changes she contemplates to make student aid more available to the students of our Province? 4170

.::_, May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1955 JV - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. the Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, what I said in this hon. House and to students with whom I have met over the last couple of·months is that the changes in our Province's Student Aid Programme announced in the Budget Speech on March 17 will not be finalized until students have made their full input.

The students, particularly ~he CSU of Memorial University, asked to have some time to prepare their submissions, they asked to have time after the completion of final exams and we agreed on a May 9 deadline - of course, today is May 10 - and later this afternoon I will be meeting with representatives of the CSU to receive their submissions. What I told the students is that the money included in the estimates for 1983-84 cannot be significantly deviated from, but that above the bottom line dollar entry there may be room for considering some changes in detail.

I told them that I, personally, would be willing to recommend to my colleagues in Cabinet that we consider their input in re-examining some of the detail, particularly the eligilibility criteria. Now, Mr. Speaker, the combined · effect of the proposed changes in our Province's student aid plan : wo .uld still leave the Newfoundland and Labrador plan better than those of most of the Provinces of Canada and at worst on a par with plans in some of our sister Provinces. You see, Mr.

Speaker, until no~ Newfoundland and Labrador has had by far the most generous plan of assistance for post-secondary education students in that our students have received the highest average grant paid by our Provincial Government compared with bursaries paid by the governments of other Provinces, and our Province's students 4171

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1956 SD ~ 1 MS. VERGE: have received the highest percentage of aid in the form of grants and the lowest percentage of aid in the form of loans than students in any other province of Canada. Finally, Mr. Speaker, I would like to say that the changes that the federal government is proposing in its end of the student aid plan,namely the Canada Student Loan Programme, are changes announced by the Secretary of State, the hen. Serge Joyal, on March 18·J which were known by me a couple of days before that,. and they are changes in simply the loan programme.

One of the major changes is allowing students to borrow more per semister or per year than was permissible before. And that change is prompting several .of our sister provinces to further increase the minimum borrowing requirement which would leave our Province.having a superior Student Aid Programme overall than those provinces should they go ahead and make those moves. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): The hen. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, it looks like we have heard the speech that the minister is going to give the students this afternoon and one that she has given several times.

I take it then, Mr. Speaker, that from the minister's answer/ all that she plans to do, all that the government plan to do is to just make some slight changes with respect to the eligibility criteria. In other words, it seems to me that all the government are going to do is just redistribute the misery·, just redistribute, Mr. Speaker, the anguish the students are now going through. My question is does the minister contemplate doing anything with the loan ceiling1which. is 4172

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1956 SD - 2 MR. LUSH: now $900? Does the minister or the Department of Education or the government intend to decrease that loan ceiling? 4173

May 10, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MS. VERGE: Tape No. 1957 NM- 1 The han. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, righ± at the moment, and until August 31, 1983, this Province•s loan ceiling, meanin9' the minimum amount a single student has to borrow for one semester of post-secondary study to go on to qualify for provincial government grants, or free money, is $575 1 and the current proposal, as announced the in Budget Speech on March 17,is to raise that to $900, which is the minimum borrowing requirement in about five or six other provinces of Canada.

And,as I just indicated,some of those other provinces in the wake of the announced federal government proposal are contemplating further increasing that amount beyond <· $900. MR. SPEAKER: MR. LUSH: The hon. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, again the minister's justification for these tremendously discriminatory measures with respect to student aid was based on the fact that we have had the most generous aid student programme in Canada. Now I wish that the government accepted that philosophy in other areas like,for example,with respect to unemployment. MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, the hon. The han. gentleman is making a speech. This is supplementary questions. There is a procedure 1 if the han. gentleman is not satisfied with an answer, that he can avail of on Thursday, as yet I do not think he has availed of it this session 1 but he is certainly out of order, Mr. Speaker, because he is making a speech and this is supplementary questions. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order,! would remind the hon. member for Terra Nova (~r. Lush} , and all other hon. members, that in supplementary questions

preamble is limited. 4174

May 10, 1983 Tape No . 1957 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. member for Terra Nova, MR. LUSH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was just getting into the substance of my qUestion. The question, Mr. Speaker, is this, that based on the fact that we have the highest cost of living in C.anada, based on th~ fact that we have the highest l,evels of unemployment, should not the policy of the government with respect to student aid be aimed at making it more generous than in other areas of Canada and not less generous? MR. SPEAKER: MS. VERGE: The hori. Minister of Education. Mr.

Speaker, I have to agree, that is incredible. · I mean,what are we going to use to pay for" this most generous scheme in Canada since we are the poorest province of Canada and since the federal goveDnment has just reduced Established Programmes Financing for our Province as well 4175

May 10,1983 Tape No. 1958 ah-1 MS VERGE: as all the other provinces,money designed for higher education? The fact is, Mr. Speaker, that our Student Aid Programme,even after the announced changes,will still" be superior to programmes inseveral of the other provinces,and the changes will have absolutely no impact on those students who all along were receiving the maximum aid, who were drawing the maximum in loans as well as receiving the maximum provincial government grants.

Until now about one-third of our post- secondary education students receiving aid have been in this most needy category and for these most needy students there will be no reduction, no change.

As a matter of fact, Mr.Speaker, in meeting with one of my officials earlier today,I was told that the students who are applying for aid for study this Summer in the third semister at Memorial University are applying in ever greater numbers for aid and are being approved for the maximum aid in ever greater numbers1which is probably a reflection of the difficulty students are having in earning any income prior to study which they have to contribute to the cost of their own study. So again , Mr.

Speaker, the changes this government is proposing have been dictated out of financial necessity simply because we are the poorest Province of Canada,and it is no longer realistic for us to be carrying a more generous Student Aid Programme than Alberta, than Ontario, and Nova Scotia. And, Mr. Speaker, the changes are not going to hurt in any way, shape or form the most needy students. Those students will continue to be able to get the same amount of free money , grants or bursaries , whatever 4176

May 10,1983 Tape No. 1958 ah-2 MS VERGE: you want to call it,from the provincial government and they will continue to draw the maximum available in Canada Student Loans from the federal government. MR.LUSH: A supplementary, Mr.Speaker. 4177

May 10, 1983 Tape 1959 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. the member for Terra Nova, a supplementary question. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, it seems obvious .from the minister's answers that this government is moving away from the universally accepted policy that education is a right,to the policy that education is a privilege, a privilege of the few. My question now is directed towards the announcement that we saw in the paper today of some twenty-nine vocational instructors being laid off.

I think that is just short of fifty instructional people who have been laid off from the vocational schools in the past twelve months. In less than twelve months; I think it was last year this time that the government announced they were laying off eighteen, today it is twenty-nine. So I think that makes forty-seven instructors laid off from our vocationul schools in less than a year. Can the minister indicate what set of circumstances led to the layoff of these twenty-nine instructors which was announced today. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MS VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, there was no official announcement today of personnel changes in the Province's vocational schools. I can now tell hon. members, however, that there will be changes in the programmes offered by our vocational schools in the next school year and there will be resulting personnel changes. There will be some instructors laid off and there will be some new instructors hired. Some of the new programmes that are being added in our vocational schools are being chosen because they are relevant to the current employment situation.

There will be added a number of simulated work projects for unemployed apprentices, which I am sure will greatly benefit this group of people who are having difficulty meeting the requirements for their trade. There will be a number of other training and L~ 1 7 8

May 10 , 1983 Tape 1959 EC - 2 MS VERGE : education programmes for particular groups and all of these will prepare people for the changing nature of the unemployment market . As for courses that are being eliminated , those which are being eliminated permanently are considered no longer necessary because of an over ­ supply of people w~th the qualifications provided by those cour ses currently in the labour market and unable to find work, and because of the projections for the labour market indicating that there is no reasonable prospect that the job market will be able to absorb any more people with these qualifications 417 9

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1960 MJ - 1 MS. VERGE: and because of a record of low student demand. These criteria, Mr. Speaker, were set out in a formal directive a couple of years ago, were,at that time and since,well circulated in the vocational education system, and were applied fairly and objectively. Mr.

Speaker, there are some other vocational school programme reductions which will be reviewed after a year,and most of these reductions are triggered by the transition in the high schools where this Summer there will be no graduates because everyone presently enrolled as a full-time student in high school will be progressing to Grade XII in September and will not be graduating until June of 1984. Mr. Speaker, all of these programmes require high school graduation for entrance. Therefore, Mr.

Speaker, there are three types of changes being made for our vocational school programmes and personnel: number one 1 additions of programmes which meet particular needs and which respond to changes in the labour market: number two, permanent reductions because the courses ar~ superfluous and irrelevant to the current labour market; and,number three, temporary reductions in response particularly to the phase-in of Grade XII in the high schools and the resulting drop in applications. MR. LUSH: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, it certainly seems strange that during a period of high unemployment, when Newfoundland,and indeed the whole of the country is short with respect to skilled labour,that we in this Province should be laying off forty-seven instructures at our vocational schools. The minister said it was not announced £ormally,so can the minister indicate whether that 4100

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1960 MJ - 2 MR. LUSH: figure is right, whether there will be twenty-nine instructures laid off or whether there will be more or less? MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker. 41 B 1

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1961 so -1 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: -• ; :r Mr. Speaker, the £~gure ~s wrong. The correct figures are as follows: There will be thirteen instructors hired to staff new programmes being introduced in our vocational schools around the Province in September. There will be twenty-one instructors permanently laid off because the programmes they are presently staffing are judged to be superfluous to the current labour market needs and the projected future labour market requirements.

And there will be fourteen personnel reductions1which Will be revieW after a year I Which are neCeSSitated: ,by the anticipated drop in student applications because of the phase in of Grade XII. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I am just wondering whether there is no way to train those instructors to do the new courses which the minister has indicated will be offered in the various trade schools throughout the Province?

Certainly goodness, if we have any kind of planning going on, we know the courses that are going to be offered in the future in the trade schools , so is there not s·ome kind of effort by the department to assist and to encourage those people whose courses are becoming outdated and obsolete to ~--retrain themselves so that they can teach. those courses so that they do not become among the unemployed?

I imagine some of these instructors have been teaching for a long time and certainly there must be some programme or some system whereby these instructors can be retrained to teach the new courses rather than throwing them to_the wolves. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, actually there has been some moving around in the system whereby instructors 4182

L May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1961 so - 2 MS. VERGE: laid off have be .en success£ul in gain-i:rig employment ' starfing other courses. That happened last year and it is expected that it will happen in -the months ah-ead. MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): for Terra Nova. MR. L1JSH: Supplementary, -Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member Mr. Speaker, as I inpicated previously, there were eighteen instructors laid off last year somewhere around this time, I think it mlght have been a little later, maybe in June , there were eighteen laid off. In the minister's official figures today are 4183

May 10, 1983 Tape 1962 PK - 1 MR. LUSH: twenty-one, so that makes thirty-nine, thirty-nine instructors laid off in a year or less. Can the minister indicate what is going to happen over the next year with respect to instructors at vocational schools? Thirty-nine:I am sure that makes for the staff of a large vocational school. So having said that,are we going to have any vocational schools that will close? Just what are the circumstances with respect to vocational training in this Province? MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The han. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, all sixteen vocational schools around the Province are alive and well and are having programmes 'improved, programme selection mode~nized, the mix changed, a better selection to prepare students for the changing nature of the work place. All sixteen vocational schools will be open for business in September.

And all sixteen schools are now participating in Join The Class Of '83 Campaign, which is aimed at mature students, peo~le ranging in age from, say, twenty up to eighty who have been out of high school for a while, and who will have special opportunities in September opened up because there will be a big drop in applications from high school graduates, in fact, there will not be any applications from students now in full-time attendance at high school because all of those students will be staying in high school to do Grade XII next year. So, Mr.

Speaker, all sixteen of our vocational schools will be continuing to serve the students of the Province and all sixteen schools are aiming to have a higher percentage of mature students in September. Mr. Speaker, the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush), the Opposition Education critic, just referred to some layoffs last yea~. I do not have figures 4 1 8 L•

May 10, 1983 Tape 1962 PK - 2 MS... VERGE: at hand, but I can assure the hon. member that there were new programmes added last year 1 ··­ starting September,l982,and there were new instructors hired to staff those programmes. And, Mr. Speaker, among the programmes that we added last September were courses in computer studies, courses in accounting more advanced than the selection previously available in vocational schools, courses in electronics technology 1which formerly had been offered only in the colleges in St. John's• And, Mr.

Speaker, the response to those new courses added last September was excellent, and two of the programmes !,mentioned, the accounting programme and electronics technology,are more than one year .in length, and therefore those new programmes will continue to be phased in,with the second year being added in September 1983. MR. SPEAKER }Ayl~ardl..o Mountains. MR. WARREN: The hon. ;rt1embe:t;' :!;or Torngat Mr. Speaker, I hay€ a question for the Minister of Culture, :R,ecreation and Youth ·~r. Simms), the Minister responsible for wildlife. 4185

May 10,1983 Tape No. 1963 ah-1 MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, this time of the year a lot of individuals are planning their vacations and they try to plan them around the moose hunting season. I am just wondering if the minister could advise the hon. House at approximately what time will he be making an announcement concerning the successful applicants for moose hunting licences? MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): The han. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr.

Speaker, I am very pleased to say that we indeed are progressing along the lines that I described when I made the announcement several months ago of some improvements to our computer license draw system. Indeed it is hoped that the draw this year will be concluded at least two months in advance of when it has been done in previous years. But I hope to be in a position,perhaps towards the latter part of this week, to make a statement in the House giving details of numbers and everything else as well. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR.WARREN: MR.SPEAKER: Mountains. MR.WARREN: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker.

The hon.member for Tbrngat Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister. Has the minister given any consideration, not for this year's hunting but probably for the following year, of having a three party license? This year , I think, there is a single individual license and a two party license. Is there any consideration .for a three party license 1 because in doing so more people would probably avail of the outdoors and be able to go hunting? Is there any thought of a three party license? MR.SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. 4155

May 10,1983 Tape No. 1963 ah-2 MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, the Wildlife Division, I think, has proven in recent months in particular,and in recent years as a matter of fact, that they are quite prepared to consider any sugg~stions that are made, sensible suggestions in pa~ticular. Personally as minister that suggestion has not been putforth to me before so I am not aware of any consideration being given to that particular suggestion. MR.LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Aylward) : Nova. MR.LUSH: The han. member for Terra Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.

Dinn) and it follows along the line of questioning that I wasonto a couple of days ago about the MED programme, when the minister outlined for han. members the way people were selected for this programme , one of the most important programmes in the Province right now in order to get jobs with the offshore and other marine related activities. One of the main problems with that course, Mi. Speaker, is that it can only be acquired here in the city of St. John's, like many of the requirements with respect to the offshore.

I am wondering if the minister ca~ indicate to the House whether there are any plans by the government to extend this programme to make it more available to other areas of the Province? . Because,as the minister can appreciate,by just offering this in St. John's, number one, that sort of crowds the facilities that are presently available, I ~xpect. I understand there i~ a long waiting list , possibly up to 1500, so I am wondering if the minister can indicate whether they plan to expand the programme to make it more available to other areas of the Province? MR. SPEAKER: and Manpower. The han.

Minist~r of Labour 4187

May 10, 1983 Tape 1964 EC - 1 MR. DINN: l'lr. SJ?eaker if the hon. member was here the ----last time that question was asked in the House, he would know that all the information that he asked for in his question was answered several days ago. The course has been expanded in the past couple of years from twelve per year to thirty- five per month,to seventy-two per month 1and it is now up to over 100 per month. Indeed, since this year started,up to the end of ApriJ ~e have trained 1,039 people in the MED course.

Now, >'le are certainly having a look at the possibility of expanding that course to other areas of the Province, but there are some things that right now we do not have the capability of expanding the course to. The course is made up, as the han. member knows, of three parts, Life saving appliances is with respect to lifeboats, life jackets and life rafts, a five day portion; fire- fighting is five days 1 and there are basically only two areas in the Province where we can successfully put that off; there is rescue and survival, which is two days, and first aid, which is three.

There are parts of the course that we can do in other parts of the Province and we are certainly looking into that possibility. There is also a mobile training unit that is used in other parts of the Province but it cannot cover all the aspects of the course - would that it could - it just does not have the capability, and that part of the course is being done by the mobile training unit which is sent to different parts of the Province. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The han. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, the minister indicated that he answered some of these questions on a day that 4158

May 10, 1983 Tape 1964 EC - 2 MR . LUSH: I was not here. I have read the answers and the minister did not come well armed with the facts on a couple of these questions and that is why I have had to repeat these questions about this most important course 1 this MED course 1 which thousands and thousands of people throughout Newfoundland are trying to get so that they can qualify for jobs on the offshore and other marine- related activities. 4189

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1965 NM -1 MR. LUSH: I would ask the minister if he can tell the House just how many are now on the waiting list? How many people are trying to get into that course? And secondly, I certainly am delighted to know that the minister p1ans to expand that course to other areas of the Province, not talking about expanding the course here in St. John's but expanding it to other areas of the Province, Can the minister indicate what timeframe we are talking about? How soon can people expect that course to be offered in other areas of the Province? So two questions, Mr.

Speaker;How many on the waiting list, and how soon can we expect this course to be expanded to other areas of the Province to make it more accessible to more residents? MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Manpower. MR. DINN: The hon. Minister of Labour and Mr. Speaker, that is a very difficult question to answer, how many people are on the waiting list. One would-have to go to all the Canada Manpower Centres and see how many people they have on the waiting list, but the latest figure that I got was about 1,500, there are about 1,500 people on the waiting list.

The fact of the matter is that right now there are 11,000 people who have reg£stered for jobs in the offshore and I am very surprised that the hon. member would even ask questions as to why·we do not train people in the Marine Emergency Duties course for work on the off:shore when he is totally opposed to 1apparently, the. l.ocal preference policy that we have in place in order that we can get some Ne~oundlanders working on the offshore. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. LUSH: You do not know the facts. MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has expired. Hear, hear! A red herring. A red herring. Order, please! The time for 4100

May 10, 1983 Tape No . 1965 NM- 2 ANSWERS· TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH. NOTICE HAS. BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKE"R (Aylward) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I would like. to table an answer to question 99, and also tb' :question 113 asked by the h:on.. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) . MR. SPEAKER: The hen •. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, an answer to question number 84, asked by the hon. member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan}, on April 12, I would like to table that; the answer to question number 15, asked by the member for Terra Nova "(Mr. Lush). Also, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to answer a question asked yesterday during Question Perd:d.d that was responded to by the Premier and subsequently indicated that further information would be ava.i.labJ.e. It relates to the question of the information i.n the salary detail of government's estimates, it indicated.that the salary positions had been funded but the question, Mr. Speaker, _, . ._ indige._~e_:_~~- ·. 4181

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1966 MJ .,... l MR DAWE: indicates, to me at least, why the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) in attending the Estimates Committees failed to ask relevant questions.

Becausehad he taken the time to go through the salary details and subsequently through the detailed estimates,by simple use of arithmetic he would have discovered where in fact the reduction relating to a number of positions,which also included the positions where the Transportation watchmen were located, and he asked that question, which was,I think,an obvious one, during the Estimates Committee then the full details could have been given. However, ~1r.

Speaker, I have outlined the an$wers to the question, I have taken copies of the relevant pages from the Estimates and underlined the appropriate numbers that the member can subtract from and I am sure if he takes the time to go through it he will have a satisfactory answer. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. DOYLE: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Communications. MR. DOYLE: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the answer to a question asked by the han. the member for Eagle River (Mr.

Hiscock) which is Questi 'on No. 40 on the Order Paper of March 21, 1983 ,and also I would like to table the answer to another question asked by the hon. the member for Eagle River, Question No. 34, Order Paper March 17, 1983, also I would like to table the answer to a third question asked by the hon. the member for Eagle River, I do not have the Order Paper date on that one, Mr. Speaker. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Social Services. 4 i 9 2 '

-""' May 10, 1983 Tap e No . 1966 MJ - 2 MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to Question 26, Order Paper No. 8 dated. March, 17, asked by the hon. the member for Torngat Mountains (~;!:'.Warren), MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER. CAvlward) : The hon. the .Mini,stE\r of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I wou!l.Cl l:i,ke to elaborate on the answers I gave yeate:t'day in Que~ti;on Period,to a couple of questions pased. by the member far Port au Port (Mr.

Hodder) district about the Cles:i,gn of the proposed new fac:i,lity for the College of Fi,she.;t';i,es, First, with reference to h.i.$ question about access to the roof for ceJ,es·tial nav;i.ga,tian r I am pleased to advise that according to the p;res,i.Clent of the College of Fisheries Marine Engineering Nav.i.gation, etc. the des~gn of the new building does provide an access toe:- - the roof through the nautical science departtnent for compass bearing and celestial observation, I gueas when there is no fo.g and the.re can be such observations. l~ 1 9 3

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1967 SD-1 MS. VERGE: And further, Mr. Speaker, the college now has a modern $750,000 radar simulator which was obtained through a special agreement with the Ministry of Transport of the federal government. A more elaborate 'bridge simulator while considered desirable, it is certainly not strictly essential to the operation of the college. The college has applied for a $3 million grant, to enable purchase of this more sophisticated bridge simulator, to the Canadian Employment and Immigration Commission through its skills growth fund. And in conclusion, Mr.

Speaker, I am advised by the President of the College of Fisheries that the design of the new complex for the college, which will be renamed the Institute of Fisheries and Marine Technology, contains provision for all the equipmentandinstructional facilities and administration considered necessary. And I would remind all han. members that the cost 9f the proposed facility is over $40 million and the provincial government is contributing over $14 million to that new complex. MR. SPEAKER (AYLWARD) : The han. Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the answer to Question 86 asked by the han. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock). And I may add, Mr. Speaker, that this question was asked in the House of Assembly in 1979 by the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). MR. ROBERTS: Why was it not . answered then? MR. YOUNG: It was answered in 1979 - Question No. 91 asked by the han. member for Eagle River, Question No. 110 asked by the hon.member for Eagle River, Question No. 96, Question No. 97 and Question No. 95 pertaining to my Christmas cards.

I must tell the han. member that my Christmas cards were paid for by me personally, my postage 4194

May 10, 1983 Tape ~o . 1967 SD- 2 MR. YOUNG: was paid for by me personally . I had beautiful Christmas cards and I have no intention of asking the bon . member for Eagle River (Mr. His cock) who he sent Valentine ' s cards to . SOME HON . MEMBE.RS: MR. YOUNG: everything on them. Hear, hear! He sent them with kisses and 4185

May 10, 1983 Tape 1968 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I have the answer to Question No. 79 asked on the Order Papel:. of ~1arch 29, 1983, and answer to Question No. 127 on the Order Paper of April 28, 1983. I hereby table. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Motion 1, Budget Debate. The debate was adjourned yesterday by the hon. the President of the Council (Mr. l\1arshall). SOME HON. MEMBERS: PREMIER PECKFORD: Unlimited time. MR. MARSHALL: Hear, hear! Unlimited time, Mr. Spe~er. Mr.

Speaker, I believe I have a few more words to address to the non-confidence motion given by the han. gentleman that has turned into really a confidence motion because the han. gentleman, first of all, yesterday, I have reiterate, was talking about last year's Budget rather than this year's Budget. And I am not going to let his mistakes of yesterday - MR. PECKFORD: A type! A typo! MR. l\1ARSHALL: - be lost in today. Now,as I was saying, 1'1r.

Speaker, in the speech that was so well appreciated by the han. gentlemen there opposite yesterday, first of all I made the point that collective Leadership -and responsibility in this government today is alive and flourishing _as witnessed, Mr. Speaker, in the number of Cabinet meetings 1 the number of caucus meetings, the number of Committee meetings that have had occurred. One instance of where there 4186

May 10, 1983 Tape 1968 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: were myriad caucus meetings after this Houseadjourned, during the teacher's strike itself,when there must have been at least a half a dozen Cabinet meetings within the space of about twelve days. The collective leadership, Mr.

Speaker, and the way in which the Premier conducts the government and seeks advice not just from his Cabinet and his caucus, but from all elements of society is and was and will be evident in the very innovative proposal we are making to the federal government with respect to the fisheries, where the Premier and the Standing Priorities Committee in Cabinet consulted with the Fishermen's Union, with fishermen, with company officials, with the federal government, with officials of the federal government, with municipalities, with the banks, with everybody. Now that is notthemark, Mr.

Speaker, of a government that is a one man concern. MR. WARREN: A one man dictatorship. Also very much, r1r. Speaker - rm. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman can say . ·-· that - that is what the hon. gentleman is trying to perpetrate. But it is also shown, 41Q7

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1969 JV - 1 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, in the offshore situation where the han. the Premier on this most vital issue legitimately required, Mr. Speaker, that the offshore issue was to be a matter to be handled not by one man or two men but by the Blanning and~riorities Co~~ittee and by Cabinet itself. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I regret,as I say,as I refer to yesterday,to the remarks made from certain quarters and particularly the NTA with respect to this matter and the attempts to personalize the dispute _. 'this was not a personal dispute as no dispute in this Province is, Mr. Speaker. That decision as well as all ~ther decisions of this Province are collective decisions of Cabinet and if people want to critize them that is their right and that is what we welcome.

We welcome all sorts of criticism .but 1evy the criticism where it should be directed, and that is to the government itself rather than individuals in the government, not tr y to propagate one's own position by personalizing the dispute ,as happened. The han. gentl~men do not understand this because this is the first time, Mr. Speaker, that we have had a truly collective leadership in government, it is based on policies rather than personalities and the han. gentlemen cannot understand it.

So, Mr. _Speaker, having yesterday, hopefully 1 put to rest the impression that the hon. gentleman and others are trying to build up from time to time,that this is a one-man government,which it is not 1 I then dealt with the allegations with respect to negotiations and the capacity of this government to negotiate. This government has a real capacity to negotiate and the people on the other side and other l~ 1 g 8

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1969 JV - 2 MR. MARSHALL : persons simpl~ because in certain cases where they cannot get their own wa~ because they do not get everything they wans try to perpetrate the ~yth that this government cannot negotiate. · MR. WARREN: Look in the mirror. MR. MARSHALL : Well, let us look in the mirror. Let us look into the mirror of the ERCO agreement. Let us look into the mirror of that scene from the re-negotiation of the Bowater's agreement,and that scene from the re-negotiation of the Price agreement. Let us look at the mirror of the Canadian constitution and that will show you; Mr.

Speaker, what the image of this government is with respect to negotiations. Mr. Speaker, we can negotiate as witnessed in these elements and these achievements. We cannot and we will not, Mr. Speaker, give it away,and those people on the other side of the House and elsewhere who try to paint us as not being able to negotiate are really in truth saying that we did not give it away.

From the hon. gentlemen there opposite and the sources from which it comes, I regard it as a supreme compliment,because really what it amounts to is an endorsement of the fact that this government is not prepared to give away the resources or any -thing else in this Province . SOl1E HON . ME~..BERS : Oh, oh! 4189

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1970 NM - 1 HR . HARSHALL : Listen to them, Mr. Speaker. Now , is that not edifying for the Houe~, Mr. Speaker? Is that not marvellous? The han. gentlemen have an opportunity to participate in the debate. I would hope that they are able to participate in a much better and a much more convincing way than their two colleagues have done. HR. WARREN: I have not been up yet. MR. MARSHALL: Well, you will get your opportunity. So, Mr.

Speaker, what I was saying in my ,remarks yesterday,which I shall continue today, is that the major thrust of this government is for a fair deal in Confederation and nothing else,for the people of this Province. We want to reverse the tragedy of a Province that is very rich in resources but at the same time, for some reason or other, finds itself with ' the highest debt, the highest taxes ~ the lowest per capita earned income, and the lowest opportunityfor ouryoung people in this Province to find meaningful jobs. It has been brought about,in my opinion, Mr. Speaker, to a large degree - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh!

MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I would like, from both sides of the House, if I could perhaps have the opportunity- it is very hard talking over various people, particularly on the other side but,also,people on ours as well. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: But, Mr. Speaker, I am afraid the Province has a history of going to Ottawa from time to time, as I said, going through the charade of negotiation w_ith .

Ottawa and in effect just gathering up the scraps from the Cabinet table in !'.'· Ottawa itsel£,and being content with those scraps~And what has resulted after thirty years of Confederation is nothing but equalization payments and welfare payments, and that is Lt 2 0 0

May 10, 1970 Tape No. 1870 . NM ·- 2 MR. MARSHALL: the only future that the people of this Province face for the rest of eternity unless they realize that we have to get our rights within Confederation, which are really, Mr. Speaker, the same rights as Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario, British Columbia and all the other provinces have. And the reason why we find ourselves in this position, and Mr. Speaker, I would characterize it as a modern day fishing admiral syndrome, and the fishing admirals, Mr.

Speaker, are not located and sailing out from Britain, but they are sitting, and they sally forth from time to time from Ottawa, in the central Government of Ottawa. MR. WARREN: MR. MARSHALL: That is down on Water Street - Yes, on Water Street. The reason why we find ourselves in the position that we are in with these so­ called fishing admirals is that unfortunately there are some people, the hon. gentlemen there opposite and certain other people in this Province, who are prepared to take the bait 1 to look at the worm, to take the worm and then they find themselves hooked. The only unfortunate part of that, Mr.

Speaker, is that it not only hooks them but it sinks this Province to the very bottom and it results in the fact that our young people have the highest unemployment rate in Canada, that historically our people have had to go to other provinces of Canada to find gainful employment, and that other parts of Canada are supplying to a large degree that employment, to a 4201

May 10, 1983 Tape 1971 EC -1 MR. MARSHALL: great degree from the resources that we had which have been given away. This modern-day fishing admiral psyche in this Province today is being supported by people,who want to embrace the status quo and there are a certain number of the minority who want to maintain the status quo because it is very comfortable for them. Well, Mr. Speaker, I am all for maintaining the status quo provided it does not result as it has resulted in the past, in the lowest per capita earned income in Canada, in our young people not being able to get jobs and having to go elsewhere.

Instead of the Boston states, as it was in our grandfathe~s' da~ and to Ontario, recently it has been Alberta, but it should be here in this Province with the resources that we have. Unfortunately, we have a large number of people in this -not a large number, I retract that, a minority of very vocal people in this Province who are interested in maintaining the status quo and they want to maintain the status quo ~nd consequently, they submit and tney acquiesce to the anvil of Ottawa, which bas been perpetrated on us since Confederation •. They go up and there is all this hoo-haw about negotiation.

The people of this Province are not really aware of the true meaning of negotiation within Confederation, because negotiation really did not occur before this administration took office in this Province. Wnat happened was they went up and they went through the charade of negotiation but they came away with only what Ottawa was prepared to give. and,unfortunately, what Ottawa has been prepared to g~ve has only been equali- zation payments, welfare payments and tra~sfer payments. To the Peckford administration, Mr. Speaker, that is not enough and that is not good enough.

And if people want to talk about us confronting, I make no apologies for confronting for jobs for the younger people in this Province, I make no 4?n2 ,_w

May 10, 1983 Tape 1971 EC - 2 M:R. .MARSHALL: apologies for confronting and standing up and asking that we have taxes equal to the average of Canada, I make no apologies and neither will this government make any apologies, Mr. Speaker, for us being in the position we are in, with the highest debt in Canada, with the greatest number of resources and yet not being able to supply the bare necessities of life to the people of this Province. Mr. Speaker, if people want to accuse us of confrontation on that, they can go ahead and do it.

It will be the pride of this administration when the history of this Province is written that we did confront. Because we are not going to be put aside by the 'Uncle Toms' of this world that are represented by the hon. gentlemen there opposite and many people outside who are interested in maintaining the status quo for the comfort of their own hides at the expense of the people of this Province who wallow in welfare and who are unable to make a gainful living from a Province which has the greatest degree of resources in Canada. Now, if we want to see, Mr.

Speaker, why we are our own worst enemies, just let me give you one or two little examples. We are our own worst enemies, we have seen it in one instance in the recent negotiations that occurred, the negotiations that we would wish to be resumed, which 42l3

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1972 MJ - l MR. MARSHALL: we will resume when Ottawa will put in writing what it has said orally. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, ·until the day I die I am sure that the reason why that agreement was not delivered was mainly, to a large degree,because the hands of other people in Ottawa, other than Mr.

Chretien, those people who have only seen this Province,people who are prepared to gather up crumbs under the Cabinet table of Ottawa, they thought they could perpetrate it again because the hands o! those people were strengthened by the fact of rumours of the outcome of the court case here. I said it before and I will say it over and over again and I will continue to ask, the question, Mr.

Speaker, 'Where is the investigative press that it has not traced down the source of these rumours?' I repeat again I will give them a lead; two days ·a,ft~r :t came back from the negotiations in Ottawa no 1ess a personage than the Mayor of the City of St. John's said St. John's was rife with rumours. Well 1 let them go to the Mayor and trace wherever those rumours lie. Secondly, another instance of people being very quiescent and just accepting the situation occurred recently with respect to British Petroleum and the drilling. Now, it happens to be a fact that at the first meeting that I had in Ottawa with Mr.

Chretien on the offshore there was just one other subject outside of the negotiations that I mentioned and that was the necessity of having approval with respect to the permit~ for British Petroleum off the Northeast Coast of this Province. Apd why did I do that? I did that, Mr, ~peaker, because I had been advised through British Petroleum itself,that if the approval was not forthcoming in the reasonably near future there was little chance of getting a drilling programme going. So what happened? Mr. Speaker, I have told 4204

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1972 MJ .,... 2 MR. 11ARSHALL: the people and I have told the han. gentlemen there oppos~te, I kept quiet about it when British Petroleum first of all came along and said to us, 'Look,because the ice has come down and all of this, it looks like we cannot drill now,and yes,indeed, while we could have had,our site- surveys done during December, our partners have put their financing in, if we had it earlier-the approval came too late.' A.nd what happened afterwards? All of a sudden British Petroleum from that meeting with me go up to Ottawa and they see Mr.

Chretien and now they tell everybody, 'Oh, no, no, no, it was not because of the late approvals, the site was not prospective enough~, and we poor little people with our fishing admiraJ syndrome,are prepared to take that bait and accept it after that information? The net result of that, Mr. speaker, ~s that there are 250 people in Central Newfoundland who are going to be walking the streets th,~s Summer on Social Assistance while we are not able to use our own resources that we brought into Confederation to buy 250 jobs.

And this is th.e type of quiescence and acquiescence that we have in this Province, that is leading us to the position in wh_ich we ;find our:;;elves. There is a mute acceptance of the positions that are given and I just cannot understand it,because it has put us on a slope; we are on a slope that this administration is trying to reverse and it is much more d~fficult going uphill than it is going downhill- or on a level,but we have to go uphill~ we have an uphill battle all 'the way in order to try, LJ 2 0 5

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1973 SD - l MR. MARSHALL: first of all, to reverse the trends of what has happened in the past and to put the Province on a firm foundation, a lot of which has been aided by the attitude of certain people in this Province. I say people with a great sweep but I do not mean that,it is the minority, it is the vocal minority in this Province that are just prepared to accept it. Now,how can you accept, Mr.

Speaker, the fact that we have $230 million in retail sales tax that we have to extract from the people of the Province this year7 We have the highest retail sales tax in Canada and it is $230 million, as the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) read out with great glee yesterday, he exulted in it~ This is great Liberal philosophy -18 per cent of our income comes from retail sales tax. Now, how can we justify, Mr.

Speaker, everything that has gone on,where there are $600 million belonging to the people of Newfoundland flowing into the Province of Quebec~because we were not treated as equal partners in Confederation, I I and because we had a bunch of Uncle Toms on the other side who were prepared to accept it. If we had had a few people who had been prepared to confront and recognize the true meaning of Confederation and our rights in those days, Mr. Speaker, we would not have to be travelling uphill1 we would be travelling on a level.

Now,that is all we want to do, we want to travel on a level, on the same basis as other provinces of Canada nothing more, nothing less. As I say, I cannot understand how people can put up with on the one hand,~us being treated on the Western boundaries of our Province as if we were a foreign country. We might just as well be on the borders of Outer Mongolia insofar as the transmission of our electrical power is concerned. Now/ 42!]6

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1973 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: that happens to be a fact, a fact that Newfoundlande~are prepared,up to now, to accept. But on the other hand, out there in Hibernia where all of a sudden we find oil a few years later, oh, no, out there,boys, we are no longer a foreign country or anything you are all one big happy family. And incidently, of that happy family you are a junior member, and the putative father has got to take that resource up with it, up to Ottawa, and it will continue to dole it out to you by way of transfer payments and equalization payments.

Now,that is what we are faced with today, Mr. Speaker, that is what we were faced with in the offshore negotiations, and I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that while there is life and breath left in this administration, and there is a lot of that left, we are not under any circumstances going to accept or buckle down to a regime such as that,no matter what anyone may say, no .matter what anybody may say, no matter what any courts may say, the answer to this is in the will of Newfoundlanders. And Newfoundlanders have to show and have to show quite clearly that 4207

May 10,1983 Tape No. 1974 ah-1 MR. MARSHALL: they are not prepared to accept the regime that we have had to bend under for the last thirty years,which has been brought about by governments that have been in here and have not understood the full meaning of Confederation, did not realize the fact that you have to stand up for your rights because you only have seven members in Ottawa as against,at any given time, seventy-five or eighty-five in Ontario. So it has to depend, Mr. Speaker, on the will of Newfoundlanders if we are to reverse this.

And I hear the hon. gentlemen their opposite absolutely exulting,if you can believe it, Newfoundlanders, exulting from time to time that the Court of Appeal of this Provinceruled against Newfoundland in the offshore~ MR.SIMMS: Shame. Shame. MR.MARSHALL: And they get up and they hypothesize that the Supreme Court of Canada will rule against Newfoundland on the offshore, and they are absolutely delighted with it. But, Mr. · Speaker, I say over and over again that that does not make one iota of difference. It puts us in no different position than ' Alberta and the Western provinces were in prior to 1930.

If they had any court case-there was no need of any court case prior to 1930-it would have been dismissed from the bench. When Alberta came in asking for its resources they would not have even heard them because the fact of the matter is,they were owned by the federal . - - government -Alright? - they were owned by the federal government but then logic prevailed,and it.is only .logical that the people above the ground should own the resources underneath. So this is after 1930 and what happened? They were given it. Nowtis it not just as logical in this Province that the resources on the Continental Shelf> l~ 2 0 8

May 10,1983 Tape No. 1974 ah-2 MR. MARSHALL: the reason for which this place was settled in the first place, the sea, the marine life around it, is it not just as logical that on the Grand Banks of Newfoundland the Province of Newfoundland should own the resources underneath and be able to deal with them? And when we say own them we do not mean to sequester them to ourselves, what we mean is that we share them with the rest of Canada. There was a deal made, Mr. Speaker, with Mr.

Chretien, 75 per cent of the total government reven~e for Newfoundland, 25 per cent to the federal government until such time as the rate of employment for our young people is the same as the average in Canada, the average per capita income is the same as the average of Canada, our debt load is the same as the average of Canada, our retail sales tax is the same as the average of canada. In other words 1 until we were average Canadians. And then when we _ got to that stage it would flip-flop. I did not want it to flip-flop as soon as they did, Mr.

Speaker- it was supposed to flip-flop about ten or fifteen years down the road-and the flip-flop was 75 per cent to Canada and 25 per cent to the Province :· Now,what is wrong with that? I cannot understand hon. gentlemen there opposite, I cannot for the life of me understand how in their blindness to support -their party right or wrong they cannot support this position that has been put forth by the Province with respect to revenue· sharing , with respect to joint management and joint management control. But, 4209

... May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1975 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: most of all, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentlemen there opposite have proven themselves hopeless, I am afraid 1in the past. All they want to do- they ,are with the status quo people, the people who for some reason or other want to keep it as it is and keep Newfoundlanders on welfare. But the ones that r make my pitch to are the general Newfoundlanders who a~e out there, Mr.

Speaker, who must realize that we are a part of a great country, and at the same time we have equal rights in that country with otherprovinces, and that if we continue on in the same bent that Newfoundland has during its sojourn in Confederation over the past thirty, thirty-one, or thirty-two years, that we are going to get what we deserve. We are going to reap what we sow and,Mr. Speaker, that is going to be an eternity of welfare payments and equalization payments and our young people having · to · ,find jobs elsewhere while other parts of Canada live off our resources.

Now,r do not think hon. gentlemen there opposite really want that and r think it is tim~ for hon. gentlemen to break ranks on this one issue, if nothing else, to break ranks on this one issue with their friends in the Governme .nt of Canada and see what they can do to deliver the goods to Newfoundland: ~1R. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : Order, please: -... ~ - -· SOME. ;RON. MErmERS: Eear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, before I begin the gist of what I want to say in this debate on this amendment, let me first of all deal briefly with the point which the hon. gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) just made in the course of his remarks. I.am sorry he is not in the Chamber at this precise moment, I guess he is - he has not gone out for a cigarette, he does not smoke to my knowledge. 4210

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 19.75 NM ' 2 MR. STAGG: He is around. 1-1R. ROBERTS: His friend from Stephenville (Mr. Stagg), who is sort of a shadow to a number of ministers, says that the minister is within the precincts and I am pleased with that.

I want to say this very seriously, both as a member of the House and as a member of the Bar of the Province, and I am sure my friend· from Stephenville who shares both capacities- we may not share a common political viewpoint from time to time but we do share common membership in both this House of Assembly and in the Bar of this Province, or the trade union which constitutes the Bar, the most powerful trade union in the Province. Mr. Speaker, the minister, who after all speaks not simply as an ordinary minister -he is not just a minister like my friend from Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie} or my friend from St.

John's South (Dr. Collinsl, or my friend from Grand Falls (.Mr. Sirnrnsl, who are sort of common every-day, run-of-the mill ministers, doing the best they can. They are on the steps of the throne of power but there sitting on the right hand of the throne of power is the minister from St. John's East himself.

I am not sure if he holds the official title of Deputy Premier, I am not sure,in fac~ within the British system it is constitutionally possible to have a deputy premier' or a deputy prime minister, although that title seems to be corning more and more into use and perhaps , given the way constitutional conventions develop,there will in due course be a constitutional convention that we can have a deputy premier. If we had one today though it would be the gentleman from St. John's East. He stood in the House and he is not one given to statements in the passion of the moment.

I am not sure there is any passion or compassion,for that matter, in the man, but he said that he was concerned about rumours 4211

M.ay 10, 1983 Tape No . 1975 NM - 3 MR~ · ROBERTS: which h.ad emanated from the Court of Appeal of'thi.S Province with respect to the decision of the three judges there on the offshore reference matter. And it is no ·t the first time · the han. gentleman has made these re .ferences, as he himself acknowledged when he spoke, Sir.

Now,I cannot conceive-of very much that does more to threaten the integrity of the administration of justice in this Province than that kind of comment coming particularly as it does from a very senio!l member of this administration, and in addition,of course, a member who in priva-te li..d:e is not only a member of· the Bar of this Province but a very senior member, a Queen's Council, distinguished lawyer, a man long in practice. DR. COLLINS: Suppose it is true? 4212

May 10, 1983 Tape 1976 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I hear the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) say, 'Suppose it is true', and that is precisely the. point. I shall deal ·,.rith that in the course of what I say. I say to him, suppose he just listens for a morqent and does me the courtesy which I did his colleague, his friend, his intellectual bed mate, the gentleman for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) . Because the two of them intellectually share the same view points, the same political bed very much, and that is their problem and nobody else's. They should not blame anybody else for that.

If in fact either minister has anything at all on which to base such rumours, and they are now being given currency b~ being brought to the floor of the House, and I did not bring them, Mr. Speaker, in fact, other than the hon. gentleman for St. John's East, in the remarks emanating from him inside and outside the House, I have not heard these rumours at all. That may merely show that in the part of the legal world in which I live these rumours did not percolate. I do not doubt they are around if someone says ~hey are around, I can simply say I have not heard them.

"aut they are being given currency by the minister. In common decency and integrity the government should use the weapons to their hand to investigatethern,and I say to th~ Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins} and to all han. gentlemen and to the House and to anybody who cares to listen, that if there be truth in these rumours then whatever need be done must be done. But if there be no truth, Mr. Speaker, then these vile, base, _ dirty, canards ought to be exposed for what they are. The Benchers, Mr. Speaker~ I am not a Bencher, but the Benchers have no control over the Bench nor ought they to.

Nobody has any control over the Bench in this Province nor ought they to, nobody has any control over the Bench in Canada except the 4213

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1976 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: -the Parliament of Canada, nor ought there be any control. The very fundamental basis of the judiciary in this Province and in this country is that they are independent •. Mr. Speaker, the government have to hand methods which would legitimately and properly and fairly enable the matter to be looked into. MR. CARTER: Do not be abusing yourself. MR. ROBERTS: The matter will properly, fairly, legitimately and regularly be looked into, instead of the vile, base, dirty, scurrilous, canards that are slithered out on the floor of this House.

And that is all I want to say, I have only half an hour, Mr. Speaker. That is all I am allowed. Look, my friend for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) is back again. Now, you know, you cannot trade insults with a half wit, you cannot talk to a man whose collar size exceeds his I.Q.

All I want to say about him, not to him, is that I have a few remarks I wish to make and if he is not prepared to be as courteous as I try to be, and I get provoked and sometimes I say things in the heat of debate, but I listened carefully to the remarks of the hon. gentleman, when I was ~ot in the Chamber I was listening as he doubtless was, now that he is back he will acknowledge, outside the precincts. I take what he said with great seriousness because he meant it with great seriousness and I will try to make a few comments in equal seriousness, I hope with greater merit.

But that is a matter like beauty, in the eye of the beholder. 4214

May 10, 1983 Tape 1977 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: But, Mr.

Speaker, this question of these rumours: I have heard no such ramours and I __ ~ill simply say that the minister owes it to himself, he owes it to the House, he owes it to the administration of which he is such a l·eading part, he owes it to the Bench if he cares for them, and I believe he does, he owes it to the Bar, he owes it to the country and he owes it to the system under which we have all chosen to live, to use the methods and weapons that are within the power, the legi ti­ mate, proper and regular power of the government to allow these to be dealt. with and be exposed. The judges are defenceless.

The last thing in the world a judge can do is reply to the kinds of comments that are being made by the hon. gentleman opposite. Mr. Justice Berger, I do not know if he is the former Mr. Justice Berger or not,he has announced he is resigning, in essence because he was criticized for making comments on political issues. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): On a point of order, the hon. the President of .the Council. MR. MARSHALL: It is a point of order that I know the hon. gentleman will appreciate by way of clarifica­ tion.

I heard the hon. gentleman outside the Hous~ make a statement to the effect that I had indicated with respect to the court that rumours from the court - I half heard him, I assume that is what he said, and he is using the same tenor now that I owe it to the court. I just want to make it perfectly plain because I do not want ·him putting words in my mouth and I know he does not want to himself. If these are his words they are his words, they are not mine. All I have said is that there were rumours. I did not at any time indicate the source of the rumours other than to say that the Mayor of the l} 21 5

May 10, 1983 Tape 1977 EC -2 MR.. MARSHALL: City of St. John's, which is a verifiable fact, was on radio within forty-eight hours of when I had returned talking about rumours being rife and I had heard that there were rumours around. But the hon. gentleman-you know, I know he would not wish to -is certainly not going to put words in my mouth, impute that I was saying that these were coming from the judges. MR. CHAIID•IAN (Aylward) : Does the hon. gentleman wish to speak to that point of order? MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, that is, of course, no point of order, as my hon. friend realizes, so I do not need to respond to it. What he said in the House is in Hansard, and what he said in the House leaves but one inference and one implication. Can a bit of but one inference and but of one implication -and in fact, the words he used were that the rumours emanated from the court. I am not purporting to quote, what I am saying is that this is what he said. And for him now to try to be Pontius Pilate is really completely unacceptable. Now, I do not want to say anything more on it at this stage.

If the administration feel the matter ought to be debated, I would love nothing better, Mr. Speaker, than to participate in a debate here in the House on this matter~ if the government feel the appropriate motion ought to be put down. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : I interrupt the hon. member to rule on that point of order. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, of course. MR. SPEAKER: There is not a point of order, merely a clarification on behalf of the Pres-ident of the Council. The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR, BAIRD: Sit down, boy, do not be crude. 4216

May 10, 1983 Tape 1977 EC - 3 MR. ROBERTS: Tll.ank you. Your Honour, you know, the hon. gentlemen on my right, one of whom attempts to be funny and sometimes is, my friend from HUitlber West (Mr. Baird) , who is a g:enuine half-wit and who brings what he can to the feast - MR. BAIRD: That is better than a quarter-wit. MR. ROBERTS: The other gentleman from St. John's North (MX'. Carter). is, of course I playing his game. I wonder if Your Honour would simply draw to their attention - I do not consider it particularly funny we only have half an hour in the House and if the hen. gentleman f·rom St.

John's No.rth wants to be rude and boorish and ignorant, I would ask only that he do it quietly. He is really 4217

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1978 SD - 1 MR. ROBERTS: most annoying, Sir, he is a little like something that has to be scratched and yet you cannot in public because it is not decent to do it, you know. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. ROBERTS: simply - MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Oh, oh! I wonder if Your Honour would Order, please! I would like to remind members on both sides of the House that each hon. member has the right to be heard in silence. The han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR ..

ROBERTS : I once heard a Speaker say, Your Honour 1 that every han. member has the right to speak in silence and having heard some of us speak from time to time, I am sure Your Honour would second it. Mr. Speaker, the few remarks I want to make in the relatively few minutes left to me deal with the substance of what the hon. gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) said in his ~emarks. We hear a lot about history in this House and that is only right and proper and, in fact, we are now all wearing a badge, a symbol of the 400th anniversary,this coming Summer, of Gilbert's landing here in St.

John's - . - and claiming the Island. I do not know if he knew it was an Island or if he knew what he was doing beyond claiming a bit of soil, a oit of territory and claiming it for the British Crown. And if you look back through our history, Mr. Speaker, you cannot help but be impress ·ed, I suggest, at a theme which runs throughout it 1 and that is the fact that throughout our history the political leaders ·, and for 150 years now that has been the men and women who sat in this House of Assembly - we h.ad a sixteen year hiatus in th .e 1930s. The last time we had 4218

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1978 SD - 2 MR. ROBERTS: a Tory administration in power they drove the country under, and we had that sixteen year hiatus.But, Mr. Speaker, the one common theme which underlies our history, there are others, but the one which underlies all our history is the one into which the Peckford administration has entered and subscribed with full enthusiasm and that is this, the one big boom theory that if only we can achieve this particular point of public policy all will be well. You know, the mining boom of the 1860s and 1870s was going to be the answer to all the problems of Newfoundland.

When that did not work it was going to be the railway. We just about bankrupted ourselves in this country which was what it then was legally, to build a railway. But if you read the speeches, Your Honour, of that period it was going to solve all the problems of Newfoundland, all of the problems of our people - the railway. When that did not work then the French shore settlement, if only we could get the French shore question settled. And in 1904 that was settled, we got rights, the uncontested rights, sole possessive rights to the French shore.

In return, I. believe, the British government gave the Government of France some rights to the Cameroons or Togoland or some country in Western Africa. Then it was the Grand Falls · mill that was going to be the salvation; after that it was the Hum on the Humber and then came Confederation anq the new industries programme; the oil refinery, Churchill Falls, you know, we can go on and on and on down the list. And now here we are with this administration, perfectly consistent historically, perfectly in order with everything that has gone before,in the ~00 years since Gilbert stumbled ashore here in St.

John's and claimed this 4219

May 10, 1983 Tape No . 1978 so - 2 MR. ROBERTS: country for the fi rst Elizabeth. So there is nothing unique in what this administration are doing. In fact, I can sit over here, Mr. Speaker, and I can close my eyes when the Premier is in full oratorical flight and I can go back ten or fifteen years and I can hear a former Premier - AN HON . MEMBER : Frank Moores. MR . ROBERTS : - not Frank Moores, the other former Premier saying exactly the same thing. All you have to do, ~tr .

Speaker, is close your eyes, the accent may be a little different, the inflection may have changed somewhat, the message is the same, so is the verve and the vigor and the enthusiasm. There are differences between the two men - MR . CARTER: All stand. 42 20

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1979 .MJ - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Yes, if the hon. gentleman wishes to stand for his Premier,he can, His normal posture with his Premier is not one of standing,of course, ~t ~s one,with the hon. the member for St. John's North (,Mr, Carter), bent from the waist. Now, Mr. Speaker, what is unique about this government, and the minister's speech exemplified 'it is the mean spirited, narrow-minded, smug, the spirit in which they approach public affairs in this Province, the complete lack of generosity. You know, the hon. the gentleman from St. John's East (Mr.

Marshall) stood here and he is not given to careless utterances, ignorant utterances perhaps but not careless,the man knows what he is doing and what he said, he said it yesterday and he said it again ·today in his peroration,was that nothing good has ever been done by anybody who has gone before in this Province. He took the thirty-four years since we have become part of Canada and washed away the first thirty and not even did they acheive nothing good, these men and these women, but their intentions were nothing but evil or dishonourable or at the very least,weak minded.

Now, I am not going to defend these men and women, they do not need a defence,particularly from the likes of the hon. gentleman from St. John's East but I will simply say, Mr. Speaker, that the remarks which he made exemplify his whole approach And I will tell you now, it is no secret that this man is, of course, one half of the intellectual team which sparks this administration,the other half is Mr. Cabot Martin.

The Premier for all his undoubted talents has never held himself out as an intellect or an intellectual, a very bright man all of these things, but the intellectual spirit, ~ro~otkin of this particular administration is the gentleman from St. 4221

May 10 , 1983 Tape No . 1979 MJ - 2 ~m. ROBERTS: John's East and we saw vintage Marshall yesterday and again here today ~n the House. He is unable or unwilling to admit that any others can even share the goals that he so piously claims as being his sole prerogative. Everybody is to blame but himself, even British Petroleum. He carne close, he did not use the word but he came close to calling the British Petroleum Company liars-I have no ide~ whether they are liars or not,but I do know that the hon . gentleman has no cause to say they are liars, he just sta nds up , backhands them , blackguards them .

I know not why they chose not to drill or why they did not do their seismic work last Fall or last Winter, I do not know at all . I know what they have said publicly because I have read it in the newspapers as has the hon. gentleman ,and I will say that unless he has some justifiable cause to refer tothe spokesmen for that company as being liars and people who tell untruthSthen he has no right ~o do so,nor should he be 4222

May 10,1983 Tape Nol980 ah-1 MR. ROBERTS: sheltering beyond the House, behind the wings of the protective aura of this House. Now, Mr. Speaker, we are talking about the budget. We are talking about an amendment to the budget, we are talking about an amendment of non-confidence which I certainly support. The events of the past few months in this Province are most revealing, Sir, because what they are showing us now is the bankruptcy of the whole policy underlay of this administration, this meanspirited, ungenerous, _ narrow-minded and totally bigoted attitude that they take to everything. This is their approach.

It is fast revealing itself. Not only is it intellectually bankrupt, it has been that right from the start, but is politically bankrupt. It is not working and more and more people are perceiving it not to work. And do you know what that is doing? What that is doing, of course, is making the hon.gentlemen frustrated and angry and that is why we are seeing the bile pour out of them. But I will predict now, and my hon. friends opposite may or may not care to listen, they may or may not care to understand,and in the case of the gentleman from St. John's North (Mr.

Carter) they cannot understand , but in the case of many of them they may or may not care to understand, we are going to see more of this,we are going to see the bunker mentality now. And just watch the next two or three years. We have seen it in this session and we are seeing it more clearly each day, it is revealing itself more clearly. Everybody is against them. They say everyb?dY is wrong. And why are they wrong? Because they are against what the hon. gentlemen opposite want to do or want to accept. It is the frustration and the anger and there is an analogy there.

I said earlier that my friend the Premier 4223

May 10,1983 Tape No. 1980 ah-2 MR. ROBERTS: reminded me of a former Premier whom I have had occasion to know relatively well in the political sense. MR. BAIRD: And you supported. MR. ROBERTS: I supported him as did the gentleman from Humber West (Mr. Baird) before he was converted. AN. HON. MEMBER: MR.ROBERTS: MR. BAIRD: MR.ROBERTS: He did not, did he? He certainly did. A point of order,... r,1r •• Speaker. To a point of order. The hon. gentleman can only be heard from his seat as opposed to being heard through his seat which is his usual approach. But, Mr.

Speaker - that will cost me on the Public Accounts Committee. If therewas any hope now of a unanimous report , gone, on the Public Accounts Committee. He finds his way back to his seat. Now, Mr.Speaker, I said earlier that I could close my eyes and hear the former Premier speaking in this House when the present Premier speaks. But there is another analogy that Your Honour may wish to reflect upon,and other hon. gentlemen opposite. MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! A point of Order. The hon. member for Humber West. MR. BAIRD: A point of order, Mr.Chairman.

It was just stated that I was a supporter of the former) former Premier. Never, Sir •. That is an untrue statement. I never was and never will be. UR. CARTER: MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: of order. MR. ROBERTS: that if the hon. gentleman 4 t"'\t"'\ I L. L ._. The man should apologize. To that point of order. The hon. member to that point Mr. Speaker, let me say

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1981 JV- 1 MR. ROBERTS: gives us the assurance here in the House,of course I accept it without qualification. I will say that there is a legal maxim called res ipsi loquitor, the thing speaks for itself, and my friend and I could go to Corner Brook and we could look into that. Perhaps we should have a PAC hearing in Corner Brook. Of course I accept what he says without hesitation. MR. SPEAKER:(Aylward): To that point of order. I rule there is merely a difference of opinion between two hon. members. The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Th .ank you. Mr.

Speaker, as I was saying there is an analogy between the present administration ·and the Smallwood administration and hon. gentlemen opposite might do well to ponder it,particularly those who swept in not on the coattails of the prese~t Premier last April but swept in on the sweepings of his coattail and thus came into this House. The analogies are just striking, the closingof the hospitals, the bunker mentality. We have even got the Le ·s Curtis, the hon. Leslie R. Curtis, who in many ways was a superb legislator .- the hon. Leslie R.

Curtis . will never die I am relieved to know,as long as the gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) is with us. I can close my eyes and I can hear Les Curtis move the adjournment of the business of the House everytime the gentleman from St. John's East does it. Mr. Speaker, though the real problem,Sir, the real problem is that t~is government have led the people of this Province up a blind alley and the blank wall is not very far ahead from it,and it is in the minister's budget. The minister's budget this year was 4 '1'1r i.~J

May 10, 1983 Tape No . 1981 JV - 2 MR. ROBERTS: less forthcoming, less truthful , in my view; we will see that when the time comes,but the minister's budget this year was bleaker than last November's which was bleaker than the one before,and I say to the minister, if in fact for his sins he is permitted to continue in otfice until he brings in another budget, the mini budget in the Fall or the budget next May when we finally get the results, or March, April or whenever it comes,of this year it will be bleaker still because we are up against ~le cJ.ani ' wall .

The offshore policy has come to a complete dead halt in the water. This government were given a mandate by the people of this Province, a terrific mandate, a terrific vote of confidence and instead of being able to use that, instead of being as big men or women , 1.• 'l '1 !"'.) ·t ~- ~: I

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1982 m1 1 MR. ROBERTS: saving the lady from Gander (Mrs. Newhook), and the lady from Twillingate (_Mrs. Reidl, as big men in spirit and in policy, as big in themselves as they were in numbers, they have blown it, They have put us in the court and we lost. No exaltation there, no joy no exaltation, no despair. You go to court, you submit yourself'-to the court, if you then invoke the legal process - "Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword "-if you invoke the legal process you cannot be heard to whine and snivel as the han. gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) did.

Now they are at the point that we advocated five years ago, we poor band of traitors over here saying, "Let us do a deal. " The only hope they have is that somehow the people of Canada will elect a Tory Government. Well, well they might. Given twenty-five · points oh the gallop poll- gentlemen, even the Tories may manage to get elected with a twenty-five point difference in the gallop poll.But,mind you,there is a year to go yet. You have got to have faith in the Tory Party to blow it. They will re-elect Joe Clark and it will all be down hill from there. But, Mr.

Speaker, the fact remains that that is the only throw of the dice left now, and it is a throw of the dice.This government's policy has brought us up to the blank wall. The same in energy_ ~Thy did we not pull the plug years ago? Again something we on this side have advocated? The gentleman from Baie Verte-Whit.e Bay (_Mr. Rideoutl is out of llis seat but he may remember being at a Liberal public meeting in· Gander in 1977 when that was clearly stated as being the policy of this party. The only bright spot is the fishery~ And do you know why? Because at long last the Minister of Fisheries L'1')7 r '- !..

May 10, 19.83 Tape }Ia. 19.82 NM- 2 MR. ROBERTS: (Mr. Morgan}, a gentleman with whom Ihavehad my differences, he and I have certainly had our differences of view and we doubtless will again, but at least he is talking, at least he is dealing with Ottawa. I do not think he is selling the side, I do not think he is going to give up anything he feels he ought not to give up,but we are seeing- DR. COLLINS: We have a sensible federal minister. MR. ROBERTS: There are a number of sensible federal ministers if only there were an equal number of sensible provincial ministers.

I mean,most of the provincial ministers opposite, Your Honour, could not get hired as. the second man in a one many team. Mr. Speaker, the only bright spot in the economy right now is the fisheries with all the horrendous . problems it faces. And, Mr. Speaker, in each case the .same causes have led us to this problem, an unwillingness to negotiate in any real sense of the word, an inability to give and take, a lack ofgenerosity ~nd a lack of open-mindedness. I say to han. gentlemen opposite that it is not too late to change, they have got three and a half or four years left- in a mandate.

They no longer have the confidence of the people of the Province but they have the mandate. If they do not change their ways, and I say this to the backbenchers, if the caucus do not change their ways, if the caucus cannot persuade the Savonarola of . this administration, the 4223

May 10, 1983 Tape 1983 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Svengali of this administration, the han. gentleman for st • .::-ohn • s East (Mr. :~arshall) and his intellectual bed mate, the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) and those of who are of that ilk, if they c t · . anna persuade them to change their ways I will tell you what is going to happen 1 the teachers were but the first, there will be group after gr~up and each one,we can hear them now being denounced in this House by the han. gentlemen opposite 1 and at the end there they will be, there will be forty-four of them left - let the three or four or five or six or eight who see the light and leave, but there will be forty-four of them alone with the tide lapping up around their ankles.

And as they do-they will be hanging on by their fingernails- and as they do the gentleman for St. John's East, with the gentleman for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) at his feet washing - if only the han. gentleman for Stephenville would let his hair grow longer he would be able to perform that service along with the others he performs down in the flesh pots of New York on the people. But, Mr. Speaker, there they are. · There they are, Mr. Speaker, The tide will be lapping, and they will go out with the tide. Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to make one other point on health, Sir, very simply. MR. BAIRD: His time is up, Mr.

Speaker. His time is up. MR. ROBERTS : No, the han. gentleman has a minute or two yet, where they may yet learn something. The health e_stimates, Sir, are the real sleeper of this Budget. The problems are only now beginning to emerge. The cutbacks are drastic. And anybody who knows anything about the health system in this Province, anything about them knows that we do not have in our health 4229

May 10, 1983 Tape 1983 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: sys:t:em the kind of excess capacity which will allow the cutbacks to be absorbed without hurting the ability of the syst~~ to serve the legitimate needs of our people. I am just going to repeat a suggestion that has been made by my colleagues before. Subhead 13.2.1.01.01 is the teachers' sal~ry vote, $260 million cut out. The teachers through the stubborness of this 1overnment, deliberate or not, were out of the classroom for fifteen days, I believe it was 1 out of 195.

That is one-thirteenth - round it off to a tenth, Sir, because not all of the teachers were out and, . of com: 'se,not all of the salary bill was S·3.Ved. The government are $26 million in pocket. All I say to them is take a portion of that, $10 million, $12 million,$14 million and give the hospitals and the medical care systems, doctors and everybody involved in that system,enough money to enable them to carry on at the levels we reached last year.

We all know and we will all agree that is not enough but the cuts the government have imposed are wrong, they cannot be taken by the system without inflicting damage that will be irreparable to the system and may well cause grave harm, not just inconvenience 4230

May 10, 1983 Tape 1984 EC - 1 .MR. ";ROBERTS: or discomfort, but grave harm to many people in this Province, and I will have an opportunity to talk about that again later, Sir. Now, Mr. Speaker, those are my few modest contributions to this debate. I think the hon. gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) gave us the very distillation of his philosophy.

And if anybody wants to know why this Province continues to be in the trouble ~t is in today, his analysis of the past is wrong, his prescription for the future is even more wrong, but his revelation of why we are where we are today, nobody need ever 1ook, further than the h,on, gentleman's speech.

That, Sir, is the trouble with th,is Province a,nd th,at is wh,y ;r, along with my colleagues, will gladly support this non- confidence motion, In doing so, Sir, we believe and we are prepared to put th,is to the test anytime the Premier wants - we speak for the majority of the people of this Province, So.ME HON .- -MEMBERS: .MR. SlMMS; · ,MR. "Pl?EA,I\ER (Aylward) : ~ecreation and Youth, Tha,nk you, Sir, Hea:z;, hear! ;Mr. Speaker, The hon. the Minister of Culture, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: Mr.

Speaker, I want to speak briefly on the amendment: I will have another opportunity, of course, when the amendment is defeated, to speak again on the main motion. MR. WARREN: You will never. ..... MR. SIMMS: Yes, I will, and so will the han, th,e m~er for Torngat Mount~ns, ,MR, ~~N: (;I;naud.ible) • .XR. g~~-; Oh., ;I; see • 4231

May 10, 1983 Tape 1984 EC - 2 MR. BAIRD: Just ignore him. MR. SIMMS: I cannot ignore him. I cannot ignore my friend from Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren). He is a tremendous member, one of the best members on the other side of the House, without a doubt, without question, the most dedicated member they have there, looked upon in the eyes of the Liberals in Newfoundland and Labrado,;r as a potential leader, without a doubt, without a question. SOME HON ..

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~_g~ He is a man who works very, very hard on behalf of his constituents, has even learned their language, I suggest, without question, I have heard him speak. And he is a fellow whom I have known for a long time, Mr. Speaker, known him for a very, very long time. HR. STAGG: Do you need any help? MR. SIMMS: I have seen him debate in other forums ~d my friend from Stephenville (Mr. Stagg), of course, has also seen him debate ih other forums outside of this House of Assembly years ago, many, many moons ago. MR. BAIRD: At the Kinsmen Club? MR. SIMMS: Somebody mentioned the Kinsmen Club.

Yes, that happened to be one of the forums where l have seen him debate and, without a doubt, he always gets his point across, is an excellent worker, works strongly on behalf o-f his constituents and I suggest, Mr. Speaker, to the members of this House and indeed through the media to th~ people of th,is Province that the member for TOPn~at Mountains would make a superb leader for the ~iberal Party of Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SIMMS: And in view of the fact, of course, that the recently heralded Youth Conference held by the Liberal Party in Gander just last weekend strongly passed a [t')1'J T.l..u'-

May 10, 1983 Tape 1984 :EC - 3 MR. SIMMS: resolution that there be a leadership convention so that they can decide and determine their future, I would suggest to the hon. the member 4233

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1985 SD - 1 MR. SIMMS: for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) that he should give it very, very serious consideration. If the han. member for Torngat Mountains would assure me that he will be a candidate for the leadership of the Liberal Party, I will personally give him a contribution and I have a feeling I might even be able to get a bit more over here 1 from han. members on this side. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SIMMS: Now, Mr. Speaker, I listened with a great deal of interest to the comments of the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.

Roberts), and I had an opportunity to read some of the reported comments of the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) who put forth thatnow infamous amendment to amend the budget of the year before and not this particular year, which I thought was a very, very wise move on his part. In any event, because of some technicality, of course, Your Honour 1 you wisely decided that the amendment was still in order. And what I read and what r heard today spoken by the member for the Strait of Belle Isle was what I have heard and read for the last number of years.

It is the same old stuff, same old story, criticize simply to ci:iticize,for no other reason at all just to criticize. Obviously nothing has been put forth .. · at all of a constructive nature. We all know that Oppositions are meant to constructively criticize and to offer alternatives and offer suggestions, but, Mr. Speaker, I would challenge anybody in this House or outside the House to name me four or five good c:t!edible alternative suggestions put ~orth by the members opposite in this particular budget debate. There have been none. Now, Mr. Speake:t:, r want to just talk generally about some - 4 23 L~

Ma y 10, 1983 M..~ . WARP .E N: MR. SIMMS: .r1R. WA.."'UmN: MR. SIMMS: Tape Nb. 1985 so - 2 Tell us about pork barrelling, Tell you about what? Tell us about pork barrelling . Pork barrelling? Well,I will tell you, Mr. Speaker, if there is any park barrelling going on 2t is as a result of some great experiences gained from a prior administration which the hon. member should be very, very familiar with,although he was not a member of that particular administration. MR. DOYLE: Former, former administration. MR. SIMMS: l'Tell, former, former administration. I know he was not a member of that administration. UR.

WINDSOR: Speaking of pork barrelLin% , he 'was probably only a piglet when that particular administrat-ion was in. MR. SIMMS: I believe he was a member of the Liberal Party and a member of this -House of ~ssei!lbly as a Liberal and then - I am sorry may be it was as a 4233

May 10,1983 Tape No. 1986 ah-1 MR. SIMMS: Liberal reform before he resigned his seat to let the other leader come back. MR.CALLAN: There was an election called. MR.SIMMS: There was an election called, I see. And the hen. member did not run again. SOME.HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.SIMMS: Mr.Speaker, these dastardly interruptions by my colleagues and by members opposite are not helping me at all. I want to address a couple of matters, Mr.

Speaker, that have often been commented on by members opposite, specifically the question of youth unemployment, which has been raised on a number of occasions and questions have been directed at me as to why I as minister responsible for youth services have not created employment for young people in this Province. Well, Mr. Speaker, I think it is important, first of all, for members to realize the process that is underway with respect to the Youth Advisory Council's project concerning youth unemployment in the Province.

The process is such that first of all the Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth specifically provides youth services, services in an advisory capacity, financial capacity, consultations and the like. We specifically try to promote training for our young people, leadership training and training in preparation for their futures emphasizing in particular the resource industries in our Province as evidenced, for example, by the 4-H programme, which I am sure a lot of members are very familiar with. We also provide financial assistance to some thirty or forty youth organizations and groups in the Province 4236

.. May 10,1983 Tape No. 1986 ah-2 MR.SIMMS: who are primarily involved in leadership training for the future. I am talking about groups like Boy Scouts, Girl Guides, the boys' and girls' clubs, and these kind of groups, and we provide assistance to the Youth Leaders' Association in the Province as well. So the purpose of the Youth Services Division, Mr. Speaker, let me make it very clear, is to provide those kinds of services to the youth and to the youth leaders and their respective groups.

Incidentally, I should point out for the information of hon. members that this Province is the only province that has a Youth Services Division full-time, something that, I think, we should be relatively proud of if not greatly proud of. MR. CALLAN: Like the rural development associations. MR.SIMMS: No, it is not, Mr.Speaker, at all like that. It just goes to show how much the member knows about it, which is absolutely nothing. I do not know if he has ever been down there, so it is unfortunate that he would make that kind of a comment because he has no idea at all 4237

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1987 NM - 1 MR. SIMMS: what he is talking about,and I do not mind saying that right here and now. But in any event, Mr. Speaker, that is what the Youth Services Division does.

As a part of the commitment of this government,we also appointed a Youth Advisory Council, a group of young people,incidentally,with some very impressi~e adult advisers working with them, and the Youth Advisory Council itself, which . is do~ng an excellent job, undertook this project on their own, and it was a project that they wanted to undertake, where they conducted a survey of young people around the Province to find out what their biggest concerns were.

This particular process, by the way, was funded by us so we certainly had no fear of it, we were the ones who funded the council and funded their project and we have an excellent rapport with the Youth Advisory Council and meet with them on a very regular basis. As a matter of fact,my own daughter is one of the ones who was surveyed, ironically enough. In any event, Mr.

Speaker, the first phase of that project by the Youth Advisory Council was to present their report to me as the .Minister of Culture ., Recreation and Youth and we have had consultations with the eouncil, at least the leadership of the Council, the Pres ·ident and the Executive Director and so on, and as a government departmens of course,we have had numerous discussions with other interested and related departments, the Department of Labour and Manpower, the Department of Education, and my own department,and we have had several Cabinet discussions with respect to the project undertaken by the Youth Advisory Council, which is still ongoing because it is not a simple problem to address, Mr.

Speakex, it i.s highly complex. We are analyzing the kinds of programmes available in other provinces. But the important thing to remember, Mr. Speaker, is the process,and the process 4233

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1987 NM - 2 MR . SIMMS : is that the Youth Advisory Council themselves undertood the first phase,which was to do the survey, and now the second phase is that this report has been sent out to eight or nine regional councils of youn g people acr oss the Province, where these youn9 people themselves will analy~e what is in that study and that report and by late Summer or early Fall they wil l then be reporting back to government , through me , with their own reconunendations and suggestions as to how we can go about tryin g to address this very, very important and difficult problem . 42 39

May 10, 1983 Tape 1988 EC - 1 MR. SIMMS: So, Mr. Speaker, while we recognize that there have been some initiatives undertaken by the federal government during their recent federal budget, most of the programmes that they have identified for assisting youth who are unemployed relate to projects themselves that they will have direct control over and which we, of course, will not have any particular input into. So what we have to try to do, Mr. Speaker, is try to consult with the federal Department of Employment and Immigration, Mr.

Axworthy's department, to see if we cannot attempt to get a better share than the 2.8 per cent or so that we are expected to receive over the next two years out of those moneys that they have allocated. And we are pursuing that, Mr. Speaker. But we do not wish to undermine the efforts of the young people of this Province who undertook that project and have done such a tremendous job with it. We want to continue to have our consultations with them, at their request, and hear back from them with their recom­ mendations and suggestions.

In the interim, we will also be looking at it from a government point of view to see what kinds of recommendations and ideas that we can come up with. So I think it is important that I clarify that for members of the House in particular so that they themselves do not undermine the efforts of our young people, because it is their project, something that they are very, very proud of. Mr. Speaker, the other matter that · I want to deal with 1 briefly again 1 is a matter that irritates me considerably and it is probably because I am personally involved with the project.

But I am sure hon. members in this House have heard frequent comments from members opposite in particular about the 400th Anniversary L• 2 4 0

.:.1. ]1ay 10, 1983 Tape 1988 EC - 2 MR. SIMMS: celebrations which we are under­ taking in this Province thi .s year. I have frequently heard the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) in particular, and 1if I am correct, other me~ers opposite, including my friend from Terra Nova (Mr. Lush), make comments that have not been very, very supportive of the anniversary celebrations which we are undertaking. Mr. Speaker, we have to this point in t:Lme,received a tremendous amount of co-operation and interest from many, many parties with respect to our planned celebrations.

We have ;received support from the tourist industry people, we have received a tremendous amount of support from the federal government which has provided same assistance L~ 2 4 1

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1989 MJ - l MR. SIMMS: for us, tour operators in the Province in the tourism industry, transportation companies in the Province dealing with tourists on a constant basis, we have received support during our recent promotional tour from all the receptions that we held, from all the people in attendance at those receptions, we have received ·excellent coverage, excellent support, excellent response. Mr. Speaker, we even received support this morning from The Daily News who have commended some individual Newfoundland Cabinet Ministers,including my colleague,the Minister for Tourism (Mr.

Windsor),who has exhausted himself over the past number of months, absolutely exhausted himself in p:r;omoting tourism for this Province1doing a tremendous job, recognized by the tourist industry people, recognized by the federal government, recognized even now, Hr, Speaker, by The bail,y News, everybody. M._-q. RIDEOUT: That is a breakthrough, MR. SIMMS: I mean, th.a t is a significant breakthrough I think even members opposite would have to agree. So, Mr.

Speaker, the point is that it appears everybody, is on side and in support of this particular project-everybody, that is, except our fi:iends on the other side. Hr. Speaker, I do not know how they can justifiably defend that kind of a position during a year which is going to be so significant for us, Thesmall amount of monies expended we expect to get back, because a one per cent increase in our tourism trade, Mr. Speaker, will, mean over $2 million in revenue to this Province,and we expect of course to have more thana one per cent increase. Mr.

Speaker, I plead and beg the han. members opposite to get on side and support us in 4 2 !-t 2

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1989 MJ - 2 MR. SIMMS: this effort so that it can be a provincial effort. Tile have got some great projects corning up, some great activities arranged, lots of participation. MR. CALLAN: (Inaudible) New York. MR. sums: I have not been to New York, ·I am sorry. Jealousy gets you nowhere, r~r. Speaker, and the han. the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) should be well aware of that by now. We have the Royal visit scheduled, which is going to be a significant event associated with our anniversary celebrations, and the Canadian Heritage Festival, which, incidentally, Mr.

Speaker, is going to employ people. To begin with all the monies spent on that project, some $300,000 cost­ shared with the Province at a 90/10 ratio >>lith the federal government, will be spent in this Province. Food, accommodations~ people, Mr. Speaker, everything has a positive note to it, yet the members opposite continuously try to suggest that it is a waste of time and a waste of money. I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that when the time comes during the next couple of months to issue invitations to all these celebrations, all the various activities, I am willing to bet my bottom 4 2 !t 3

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1990 JV - 1 MR. SIMMS: dollar here and now that we will have all kinds of requests for them from members opposite like we had from the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) today. He is very interested in the lapel pin of my hon. colleague the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg). He is a member with a great deal of interest in tourism, especially as a res~lt of his own involvement on the West Coast and with the Stephenville festival 1which I commend to the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan), by the way. I do not know if he has ever been to Stephenville.

Has he ever been to Stephenville? MR. TOBIN: He does not know where it is. MR. SIMMS: Well, I would commend the Stephenville festival to him. It is a highlight of our anniversary activities this year and I would commend it to the bon. member for Bellevue. Anyway, the member for the Strait of Belle Isle, of course, was anxiously looking for more of these anniversary pins, yet his own leader a day or so ago said it was a waste of money, it is a waste of time, it is a bunch of foolishness. Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest that the bon. members opposite get their act together and see what they can do to try to help us in promoting this celebration period because it is going to be a significant time for the Province, a significant event and we want to get the co-operation of not only the Daily News,and not only the people in the tourist industry, and not only the Federal Goverr~ent, not only the Province, 4 2lt 4

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1990 JV- 2 MR. SIMMS: we want to get the support of the members opposite. Mr. Speaker, I do not want to delay the proceedings any further because I have an appointment,unfortunately,at 5:00 o'clock so I just wanted to make those couple of points. I look forward with a great deal of interest the vicious attacks that are likely to come forth now from members opposite assailing the comments that I made and, of course, those comments that were made by my predecessors. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER(Aylward) The hen. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) who just finished speaking,and I just want to refer to a couple of his comments. Along with a lot of other members 1 he seems to take great delight in the fact that when my hen. colleague and friend,the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder),drafted and submitted this non-confiden~e. motion that there was a typographical error referring to l~st year's budget.

Now, if I were hen. members I would take no consolations in that because the same amendment and the same motion could apply equally, as a matter of fact,possibly more so to the last budget than to this present one,.because that was the one, Mr. Speaker, that really raised some of the taxes that the people of this Province are finding so difficult to pay. I would take no great pieasure , if I were a member on the other side in talking about that typographical error becatise the 4245

May 10, 198 3 Tape No. 1990 JV - 3 MR. LUSH: same amendment, one every .- -·. - bit as forceful, could have ·been said about that particular budget as well. The hon. member also said that in reading some of the comments and listening to some of the comments he found out that it was the same old story, that members opposite were critizing. Then, of course, he came up with his own new and unique definition of what the OppOsition should be. He said that the Opposition's job is to constructively critize and to offer alternatives.

I do not know what political science · author or what political science book the hon. member was quoting, but I challenge him to find anywhere in any political science book, in any political science document that the job of the Opposition 42 46

May 10, 1983 Tape 1991 PK - 1 MR. LUSH: I challenge the han. member to come up with that phrase,that it is 'to constructively criticize'. Of course, in the Western World most people accept Sir Winston Churchill's definition for an Op-position which he said was to criticize. No qualifications, no adjectives, no modifiers, it was, to criticize. So, Mr. Speaker, that was the hon. gentleman's own definition to say that it was 'to constructively criticize'. The job ' of the Opposition is to criticize.

One hopes, of course, any kind of criticism would result in the people being criticized to accept it in the manner in which it was offerred, and all criticism is meant to be constructive, because you criticize, you make suggestions,naturally,by the very definition of the word. The fact that you criticize means that there must be some weakness and then one would hope that the persons who are criticized,or the agency or the institution or whatever 1 th~t they would take the necessary steps and proceed to correct. But , Mr. Speaker, that does not apply with this government. So, Mr.

Speaker, I want to lay that aside 1 that the job o~ the Opposition is to constructively criticize. The job of the Opposition is to criticize. It is to oppose, Mr. Speaker, I said to criticize, I am sorry. Si~. Winston Churchill said~ '':'he job of the Opposition is to oppose, •; I am sorry, but I got o.ff on the wrong track there, but the point still remains that the han. member will not find in any political science book, in any political s~ience job of the Opposition is to constructively criticize. He might find 'to criticize', but he will certainly find 'to oppose'. That is the job, Mr. Speaker, to oppose.

And it does not say •To constructively oppose' or ~sympathetically oppose', no qualification, it says, 'to oppose'. And that is the job, Mr, Speaker, and we- ·are doing it. I·iR. :CAIRu : That is the job for the Opposition :10t t!le s;overm .. ei1t-.-- 4247

May 10, 1983 Tape 1991 PK - 2 MR. LUSH: I have been here for eight years and I have done a lot of study about the job,and now I am beginning actively to study what a government should be doing. I am doing that because that day is corning nearer and nearer, Mr. Speaker, with the advent of that great youth convention we had in Gander, , I can see the day when we will be in government is just around the corner. You can smell it, Mr. Speaker, we can taste it. MR. BAIRD: You will have to straighten out your leadership problem first. MR. LUSH: The leadership, Mr. Speaker, we are not too worried about.

That will take care of itself. We are not worried about that. We have plenty of leaders. No shortage of leaders. We will have just as many running when the provincial Liberal leadership is called as is now running - - with the Conservative Federal Party. We will have just as rnany,the only difference will be that they will be more qualified, Mr. Speaker. They will be leaders, true leaders. There is no question, Mr. Speaker, about leadership. We will put that to rest. We will take care of that in due time, Mr. Speaker. But it is a great privilege, Mr •.

Speaker~ to get up and support this non-confidence motion, this amendment to the Budget. The essence, Mr. Speaker, of the motion is,of course,that we do not agree with the Budget. And it does not rratter which Budget it is,because, Mr. Speaker, every Budget brought in by this present administration was a Budget ,that was no .~ood, so it does not matter which Budget it was. So it is a great privilege gar me to support this motion, this non-confidence motion, which in essence, of course, means that we condemn the Bu~get, which is essence means that we feel that this Budget will do nothing 4248

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1992 SD - 1 MR. LUSH: for the people of this Province, that it will do nothing to stimulate the economy, Mr. Speaker-; and that is why I certainly support the motion and that is what the motion says. Mr. Speaker, why do I support the motion or why do I not endorse this budget as presented on March 17th? Well, Mr. Speaker, I suppose one could put it a little more emphatically and ask the question who does support this budget, who does endorse this budget? Nobody, Mr. Speaker, in their right mind supports this budget, nobody.

If hon. members on the other side were allowed to speak the way they feel, Mr. Speaker, all of them, almost woman to woman and man to man would stand up and say that they do not support this budget. Mr. Speaker, what is in it to support? Mr. Speaker, who supports it? Do the school board of this Province support this budget? Do the students _attending our post~secondary institutions support this budget? The people who had the student aid regulations made more restrictive, made harder, will they support it?

Will the people attending technical and vocational schools,who had their fees increased to $200 per semester, will they support this budget? Mr. Speaker, does the Newfoundland Hospital Association support this budget? Does the Newfoundland Medical Association support this budget? Does the business community support this budget? I have not heard, Mr, Speaker, of one single person,outside of the people who have to defend this budget, members on the government side, I have not heard one single person who endorses· and supports this budget. Now that should s-ay something. That should mean something.

That certainly · should say something to han. mernb .ers opposite, that nobody supports 4249

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1992 SD - 2 MR. LUSH: this budget. Educational people, people involved in health care services in this Province, students, the unemployed, nobody supports this budget. What is in this budget for them, Mr. Speaker? What is in this budget for the business community? There is nothing in this budget, Mr. Speaker, other than a lot of misery, a lot of pain and a lot of anguish. That is what is in this budget. So there is nothing in this budget, Mr.

Speaker, with which people can agree, certainly nothing substantive in the budget that is going-to do anything to stimulate the economy, that is going to do anything to create employment for our people. The kinds of things that you look for in a budget, items and policies that ~ill create jobs,that will stimulate the economy, are not in this budget. Mr. Speaker, It does not address these important matters, namely, ·the stimulation 9f the economy and creating jobs for our people. Nothing there. It is void, Mr.

Speaker, it is void of anything constructive in terms of developing our economy, in terms of creating jobs for our people .. And that has got to be the job of the government, Mr. Speaker, that is their main responsibility, that is their main task,to create jobs for our people. And there is nothing in this budget that will do th.at. What we see is a reduction in hospital services that the Minister of Health (Mr. Housel stands here daily to trying to defend, trying to defend the indefensible.

He is the only person in Newfoundland, Sir, who believes· that the restrictive fiscal measures brought down in this budget, he is the only person who believes· that these cutbacks will not affect h.eal th care in this Province. He is the only person. The Hospital Association believes- ~------ it will, Mr. Speaker,and if they believe it will, who are we to say it will not? 4250

May 10, 1983 Tape 1993 EC - 1 MR. LUSH: ---=------ The people who work daily administering the health care services of this Province say it is going to affect health care in this Province and the Medical Association say it is going to affect the health care of this Province. So, Mr. Speaker, who ~s to say otherwise? But the minister gets up here daily saying that the quality of health services will not be affected negatively by the cutbacks to hospitals in this Province. So, Mr. Speaker, certainly the people involved in health cannot support this budget, students cannot support this budqe:t.

People are going t.o .be forced to increase the;i.r debt load to go to university, and after five years in university they are going to owe a fortune because of this measure by the government to increase the loan ceiling to $900. And, Mr.

Speaker 7 ·if the minister in her meeting today or to- morrow with the students does not come up with something more concrete, more tangible than what she said today, I am afraid there are going to be a lot of irate students in thi .s Province in the next few days, students who realize, students who know that they are going to be denied access to an education because of these unfair regulations. Mr. Speaker, the minister gets up here daily repeating the fact that we have had one of the most genero~s student aid programmes in Canada for years and now we must bring it more in line.

As I said today in Question Period, I certainly wish that that were the policy of this government, to bring all other areas of government responsibility and government involvement in line with _ that in other parts of Canada. For example, our unemployment, if we could only bring that in line with other areas of Canada. Today we are four percentage points higher with 4251

May 10 1 1983 Tape 1993 EC - 2 MR. LUSH: respect to unemployment than the second highest in Canada, New Brunswick. We are four percentage points higher than that province, Mr. Speaker. So here is an area where the government could try to put things on a par with the rest of Canada. To be on a par with Atlantic Canada, Mr. Speaker, with the Maritime Provinces, one would be happy if we could only do that, if we could bring our unemployment rate in line with P.E.I., Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, but we cannot even do that. And it looks like this government have no intention to, they have given up on it.

The Premier himself said there is nothing he can do about the economy. Now, Mr. Speaker, if the Premier cannot do anything about our economy he should resign and let someone else take over who can do something about the economy of this Province. There are people, Mr. Speaker, and there are parties who can do something about the economy of this Province. I was again amused, Mr. Speaker, by the hon. the nember for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) when he talked about this celebration, this great celebration we are going to have.

He made some reference to the fact that there were hon. members opposite who criticize this · celebration, this Sir Humphrey Gilbert celebration. Mr. Speaker, I never ever made any negative comments about that particular event 1and I will never ever make any negative comments about anything that this government has to celebrate about, Hr. Speaker, 42J2

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1994 NM - 1 MR. LUSH: because they have so little to celebrate about that when they do celebrate I am delighted. I am delighted. And notice ·, Mr. Speaker, the only things they celebrate of course are the accomplishments and the achievements of the past. They live in the past, Mr. Speaker. That is their problem. They live in the past, selected periods of the past in particular. But they live in the past. They have no plans for the present or the future, and all they can do, Mr. Speaker, is celebrate events of the past.

And well they might, because they cannot celebrate the present and they have no plans for the future. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, I am reminded of a comment I heard one time when somebody asked a very prominent fisherman of this Province what the future of the fisheries was, and he said, "The future of the fisheries is a thing of the past. •i And this is what I say about this government, the future of this government, Sir, is a thing of the past. Let them carry on celebrating all they like, Mr.

Speaker, and I will not utter any statements of condemnation or derrogatory statements or negative statements or anything else, because the only things this han. crowd can celebrate are achievements and accomplishments .of the past, so let them carry on. And I suppose that they will be responsible for putting $500,000 into the economy and thank God for that. Thank God for small blessings. I hope it is a very successful event and I hope that it will bring millions of dollars into the economy. I hope that we will see thousands of tourists, Mr.

Speaker, corning into this Province from all parts of Canada, frorn ·all parts of the British Commonwealth, from all parts of the United States, from all parts of the world. I would like to see people corning in here and spending their dollars, L• 2 J 3

May 10, 1983 Tape No. 1994 NM 2 MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, s:o that we can get some monetary rewards from the celebration of this great event. But, Mr. Speaker, this budget certainly offers no hope,