Manitoba Hansard — 15 July 1991 (Sitting 85A, 35th Legislature, 2nd Session)

35-2-85a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Second Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XL No. BSA -1:30 p.m., MONDAY, JULY 15, 1991 Printed by the Offlce of the OuHns Printer. ProvlllCtl of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLAT IVE ASSE MBL Y Thirty-Fifth Legislature LIB - Liberal; ND - New Democrat; PC - Progressive Conservative NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS,C lif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MclNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River PARTY LIB ND ND LIB LIB ND LIB ND PC PC PC PC ND ND PC PC PC LIB PC PC ND ND PC PC ND LIB PC ND PC ND LIB ND PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC ND ND

4592 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA Monday, July 15, 1991 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROC EEDINGS PR ESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of H. M. Johnson, D. L. Girard, Albert Todd and many others requesting withdrawal of funding and the prevention of construction of The Pines project and to prevent projects similar in nature from destroying the community. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: To the honourable memb er for Transcona (Mr.

Reid), I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it conforms with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Mr. Clerk (Wllllam Remnant): To the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba The petition of the undersigned citizens, of the province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth: THAT the Winnipeg International Airport is vital to the economic health of the city of Winnipeg, and the project known as "The Pines," in its current location, will jeopardize the future of Winnipeg International Airport.

THAT to risk the jobs of the hundreds of people who are employed at the airport is not in the best interests of the commu nity. THAT "The Pines" project will inhibit riverbank access to the general public. THAT the strip mall portion of "The Pines" project will give a foothold to commercial development which is incompatible with the residential nature of the neighbourhood. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to respect the wishes of the neighbourhood by requesting the provincial government to withdraw provincial funding of "The Pines" project.

AND as in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray. * (1 335) PR ESENTING REPO RTS BY STANDING AND SPE CIAL COMMITTEES Mr. Jack Reimer (Chairman of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Third Report on the Committee on Law Amendments. Mr. Clerk (Wllllam Remnant): Your Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendmen ts presents the following as their Third Report. Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments presents the following as their Third Report. Your comm ittee met on Thursday, July 11, 19 91 , at 8 p.m. in Room 254 of the Legislative Building to consider bills referred.

Your committee heard representation on bills as follows: Bill 40-the Education Admin istration Amendm ent Act ; Loi modifian t la

Loi sur I' administration scolaire Ms. Judy Bradley- Manitoba Teachers' Society Bill 41- The Public Schools Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant la

Loi sur les ecoles publiques Ms. Judy Bradley- Manitoba Teachers' Society Bill 42-The Public Schools Finance Board Amendmen t Act ; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur a Commission des finances des ecoles publiques Ms. Judy Bradley- Manitoba Teachers' Society Bill 49- The Colleges and Conseq uential Amendments Act;

Loi sur les colleges et modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives Mr. Peter Olfert - Manitoba Governmen t Employees Association Mr. Bruce Buckley - Private Citizen Mr. Martin J. Stadler - Private Citizen Ms. Donna Finkleman - Private Citizen Mr. Larry Hogue - Private Citizen

4593 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 15, 1991 Mr. Eric Penner - Private Citizen Mr. Pat McDonnell - Private Citizen Mr. Stephen Kormilo - Private Citizen Your committee has considered: Bill 40- The Edu cation Admin ist ration Amendment Act; Loi modifian t la

Loi sur !'admin istration scolaire and has agreed to report the same without amendment. Your committee has considered: Bill 41- The Public Schools Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant la

Loi sur les ecoles publiques and has agreed to report the same with the following amendments: MOTION: THAT

section 16 of Bill 41 be struck out and the following substituted:

Section 171 amended 16

Section 17 1 is amended (

a) in the definition of "eligible enrolment", by adding "or" at the end of clause (

d) and by adding the following after clause (d): (

e) pupils who are not residents of a school division; and (

b) by striking out the definition of "government support to education program". MOTION: THAT

section 25 of Bill 41 be struck out and the following substituted: Subsection 175(1) amended 25 Subsection 17 5(1 ) is amended by adding the following after clause (f): (

g) prescribing the percentage of the municipal contribution, in each school division for each fiscal year, that is to be raised by special levy. MOTION: THAT proposed

section 194 of The Public Schools Act, as set out in

section 36 of Bill 41 ; be amended by striking out "in addition to support that may be provided to assist" and substituting "in addition to support that may be provided, to assist". Your committee has also considered: Bill 42-The Public Schools Finance Board Amendmen t Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Commission des finances des ecoles publiques and has agreed to report the same with the following amendment: MOTION: THAT proposed new

section 19 of The Public Schools Finance Board Act, as set out in

section 15 of Bill 42, be amended by striking out "under this Act" and substituting "under this Act and The Public Schools Act". Your committee has considered: Bill 49-The Colle ges and Consequential Amendments Act;

Loi sur les colleges et modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives and has agreed to report the same with the following amendments: MOTION: THAT the proposed clause 9(1 )(

a) be amended by striking out "on terms acceptable to the board and the students' association" and substituting "by the students' association". MOTION: THAT the following be added to the Bill after

section 40: Appllcatlon of Clvll Service Superannuation Act 40.1 The employees of a college are employees within the me aning of The Civil Service Superannuation Act. MOTION: THAT subsection 43(1) and 43(2) of the Bill be struck out and the following substituted: Student activity fees 43(1) A students' association may set student activity fees. Collectlon of fees 43(2) A board may collect student activity fees and where it does so, it shall require the payment of the fees before registering a student. MOTION: THAT Legislative Counsel be authorized to change all

section numb er s and internal references necessary to carry out the amendments adopted by this committee. All of which is respectfully submitted. Mr. Reimer: I move, seconded by the honourable member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Vodrey), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to.

July 15, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4594 *** Mrs. Rosemar y Vodrey (Chairman of the Standing Committee on Public Utllltles and Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Seventh Report of the Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. Mr. Clerk (Wiiiiam Remnant): Your Standing Com mi tte e on Publ ic Utilities and Natural Resources presents the following as their Seventh Report. Your committee met on Friday, July 12, 19 91 , at 1 p.m. in Room 254 of the Legislative Building to consider bills referred. On July 12, 19 91 , your committee elected Mrs. Vodrey as Chairperson.

Your committee heard representation on bills as follows: Bill 48-The Highway Traffic Amendment Act {2); Loi no 2 modifiant le Code de la route Mr. RobertJ.M.A dkinsandMr. William Ratuski - General Scrap and Car Shredder Ltd.

Your committee has considered: Bill 46-The Highway Traffic Amendment Act; Loi modifiant le Code de la route and has agreed to report the same with the following amendments: MOTION: THA Tt he proposed clause 242 .1 ( 4.1 )(b), as set out in subsection 2(3) of the Bill, be amended by striking out "registered in the name of the owner applying under subsection (4)." and substituting "that was at the time of the seizure and impoundment registered in the name of, or owned by, the owner applying under subsection (4)." MOTION: THAT the proposed subsection 242.1 (7.1 ), as set out In subsection 2(4) of the Bill, be struck out and the following substituted: Two seizures within two years 242.1(7.1) Notwithstanding subsection (7), where a motor vehicle seized and impounded under this

section is registered in the name of, or owned by, a person who, within two years before the day of the seizure and impoundment of the motor vehicle, was registered as the owner, or was the owner, of a motor vehicle that was seized and impounded under this section, and the seizure and impoundment was not revoked by a justice under subsection (5) or (6), the motor vehicle shall be impounded for a period of 60 days from the day it is seized. MOTION: THAT the proposed subsection 242.1 (7.3), as set out in subsection 2(4) of the Bill, be amended by striking out clause (

a) and substituting the following: (

a) while registered in the name of, or owned by, the applicant; and MOTION: THAT the proposed subsection 242.1 (1 0.2), as set out in subsection 2(5) of the Bill, be amended (

a) by stri king out "subsection (1 )" and substituting "subsection (1 0.1 )";and (

b) by striking out "owing under this section," and substituting "owing to the Minister of Finance in respect of the motor vehicle, as prescribed by regulation,". Your committee has also considered: Bill 48-The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant le Code de la route and has agreed to report the same with the following amendments: MOTION: THAT the French version of the proposed new definition of "scrapper" in subsection 1 (1 ) of The Highway Traffic Act, as set out in

section 5 of Bill 48, be amended by striking out "l'activite" and substituting "le commerce". MOTION: THAT proposed subsection 21 (1 ) of The Highway Traffic Act, as set out in

section 12 of Bill 48, be amended by striking out "by the dealer, scrapper or wrecker," and substituting "by the dealer, scrapper or wrecker, other than a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part or motor vehicle accessories acquired from another dealer or wrecker or from the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation". MOTION: THAT the French version of proposed new subsection 21 (4.1) of The Highway Traffic Act, as set out in

section 15 of Bill 48, be amended (

a) by striking out "ne sont pas responsable de l'endom magemen t ," and substituting "ne peuvent etre tenus, en ver tu de l'alinea 17 1 (1 )( a) , res ponsa bles de l'endommagement, ";and

4595 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 15, 1991 (

b) by striking out "contrairement a l'alinea 17 1 (1 }(a). Your committee has also considered: Bill 57-T he Horse Racing Co mmission Amendmen t Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Commission hippique and has agreed to re port the same without amendment. Your committee has also considered : Bill 58- The Deve lopmen t Co rporation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Societe de developpement and has agreed to report the same without amendment. All of which is respectfully submitted. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer), that the report of the comm ittee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I am tabling today the Annual Report for 19 88-89 of The Public Trustee and the Annual Report for 19 89 of the Law Enforcement Review Agency. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Chlld and Famlly Services Volunteer Role Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Many of us attended the meeting of volunteers about three weeks ago or two weeks ago, dealing with the hundreds of people who were working throughout the various agencies in the city of Winnipeg, the Child and Family Services agencies in the city of Winnipeg, many of them working hour after hour on behalf of children and parents in our communities, Mr. Speaker.

Of course, we have raised in this House about the role of volunteers with the new superagency that has been created by the Filmon government, the Conservative government, I mean, with the creation of their new over- the-weekend Child and Family Services agency in the city of Winnipeg. I would ask the Premier today, Mr. Speaker, in light of the fact that they say the volunteer status will be the same and enhanced under their new superagency, can he inform Manitobans and the people of Winnipeg what is the status of the volunteer programs dealing with very vital programs like child abuse and other programs?

What is the status of those volunteer programs in the city of Winnipeg based on his government's initiative for the new superagency in the city of Winnipeg? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer). Mr. Doer: The Minister of Family Services and the Premier spoke about the strong emphasis the new agency would have on the voluntary component in � the system, Mr. Speaker. They talked about and • welcomed the role of volunteers in the system. Mr.

Speaker, we are advised by the campaign co-ordinator for the just say no to child abuse program that volunteers are now-the numbers have been reduced close to 50 percent on people who are working in that campaign since the government made their announcement to bring in all the agencies into the one superagency. Surely the government factored in the role of volunteers in their communities in their decision making, but it appears, of course, they did not in their weekend takeover of the Child and Family Services agencies in the city of Winnipeg.

I would ask the Premier, will he investigate the situation with the de creased enr ollment of volunteers dealing with just say no to child abuse, � and will he re-evaluate totally the assumptions that � his government made on the takeover plan, assump tions tha t are not working in our communities with our parents and children and are not working with our most vulnerable children, as alleged by the government? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, without accepting as accurate any of the

preamble that the member has put on the table, I will take that question as notice and look into the matter. * (1 340) Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the information comes from the co-ordina tor of the child abuse program of the city of Winnipeg, the co-ordina tor who is working with the volunteers and the six agencies. In fact, his government, on hearing about some of these declines in volunteers, has tried to move some staff into the central office.

July 15, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4596 Mr. Cooper has convened an emergent meeting last week, Mr. Speaker, to deal with this situation. I am surprised he has not advised the government and the Premier of this, because it speaks against the total philosophy of the provincial government's takeover of the Child and Family Services agencies. I would ask the Premier, if his minister and his government are wrong about voluntary commu nity involvement in vital programs like just say no to child abuse, Mr.

Speaker, if his government made a mistake on the weekend takeover of the Child and Family Services agencies, will he re-evaluate the assumptions made on their takeover and look at returning the community-based programs and the community volunteers with the improvements that are necessary to that system, but not throw the baby out with the bath water, as the Conservatives have done with this takeover? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, for someone who has been in government before, I find it rather foolish that the Leader of the Opposition does not know that Mr. Cooper would not report to me. Mr.

Cooper, obviously, as an individual, would report to the ranks, to his seniors in the Department of Family Services. There are 18 ,000 civil servants. It would be chaos if each of them reported directly to the Premier, but that may be the way the NOP organize their government. I know then why they had such trouble. I will take that question, Mr. Speaker, as notice, as well, and respond to the member. 811170 Publlc Presentations Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, we are seeing on a daily basis just how far this government is willing to go to implement its right-wing ideological agenda.

We have seen with Bill 70 the dismantling of 50 years worth of principles of labour relations. We have seen a Premier break his word given to Manitobans about the free collective bargaining process. Most recently, we have seen a hearing process whereby more than 400 Manitobans were di senfranchised at four o'clock on a Sunday morning, and many of them today were present in the committee and were denied the opportunity to speak. My question is to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness).

I would like to ask the Minister of Finance how he can justify this Meech-Lak e-type process of sitting until four on Sunday morning, Mr. Speaker, and denying many Manitobans, including Manitobans who were there at the committee this morning, the opportunity to speak on this bill, a new form of closure in this province. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. • (1 345) Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, here we have the hypocrisy of the New Democratic Party personified by the member for Thompson. This is the most democratic jurisdiction in the world.

It is the only one that has mandatory public hearings for every single piece of legislation that is brought in. Mr. Speaker, for the edification of those new New Democrats who are part of the gang who are trying to hijack democracy, I will tell them exactly what the purposes of this process-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the term •gang" is unparliamentary. There is only one group in this House trying to hijack democracy- this government. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. *** Mr.

Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to finish his response. Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, if he prefers ragtag group, I will replace the •gang" with •ragtag group." Not only did the committee adopt its rules that allowed for unlimited time for presentations, Mr. Speaker, as compared to even the all-p arty task force on Meech Lake that put limits on time of presentation. He may recall that all three parties agreed to limiting the time of presentation.

The purpose of public hearings is so that the general public can put legitimate concerns on the record with respect to technical amendments, with respect to problems in drafting, with respect to improvements to the legislation, with respect to pointing out unexpected consequences, but never, never was that legitimate public process intended to be able to frus trate , block or fili bus ter the democr atic process-ne ver.

4597 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 15, 1991 That, Mr. Speaker, is the tyranny of the minority as practised by the MFL and the New Democratic Party. They want to destroy democracy, bringing in organizers from Toronto who do not even know people here, who put names on the list of people who do not even know their name is being put on the list, and they read word-for-word briefs that have been presented and written for them by other people to hijack democracy.

I make no apologies for being reasona ble, for being reasonable in setting democratic rules to the process, instead of acting like the New Democrats did. -(applause)- Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, they applauded General Jaruzelski as well in Poland. Mr. Speaker, the comments of this Premier are an insult to the 10 6 Manit obans who made presentations, the many more who would have made presentations if they were not cut off by this government.

I want to ask the Premier, since he did not listen directly to their concerns, I want to ask if he will listen to the single parents who came before the comm ittee, making less than $20,000 a year, and this government is going to be taking $1 ,500 out of their pocket. Will he listen to the many other Manitobans who came before the comm ittee and said, this legislation, Bill 70, is the most Draconian piece of legislation, the most vicious attack on working people in the history of Manitoba? Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, my comments are very directly an insult to the antidemocratic party that sits opposite us, and they ought to be taken as such. I will listen to all Manitobans. I will listen to those Manitobans who are struggling to keep their farms, to keep their houses, to keep their jobs. I will listen to people who are struggling to make ends meet, given some of the mo st di ffi cul t econ omic circumstances we face.

I will listen to Manitobans who are struggling because of the huge debt load put upon them by the New Dem ocr atic administration, of which all of that ragtag bunch are supporters and of which many of them were a part. Those are the people who have created the circumstances that have faced us with some very difficult decisions. Mr. Speaker, ultimately, having listened to all Manit obans, I am prepared to make difficult decisions, unlike New Democrats who speak out of both sides of their mouth. Mr. Ashton: I think the Min ister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Enns) put it in real terms, the real policy of this government, when he said during the committee hearings on Friday, he had to be there but he did not have to listen, Mr. Speaker. This government is not listening and the Premier knows it. Justification Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): My final question is to the Premier or the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), whoever wishes to respond, and once again is based on the presentations before the committee where many people said this will lead to unprecedented labour unrest in this province.

The latest statistics for the first six months of this year show the highest number of days lost to strikes in 10 years. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Thompson, kindly put your question, please. Mr. Ashton : Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) talks about bringing out the baseball bat. This government is the one- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Ashton: My question to the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness) or the Premier is: How can he justify bringing in Bill 70 which will destroy the harmonious labour relations climate, where we have already seen in the first six months of this year the highest strike rate under this Tory government since the last Tory majority government in 198 1 ? * (1 350) Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, if we want to talk about fomenting unrest and organizing demonstrations, all we have to do is look at the fact that the Manitoba Federation of Labour and the New Dem ocrats had to bring in organizers from out-of-pro vince to deal with this bill. That is right. I say this, Mr.

Speaker, these are, indeed, very difficult times in which only people who do not want to acknowledge reality can say that there should not be difficult measures brought in to face difficult times. We are the sixth province out of ten that has been faced with these difficult choices to make. We want the province to strengthen, to grow, to become a good place in which to invest and create jobs and opportunities for the future. In the short term , difficult choices have to be made. We have made them to keep faith with the people of this province.

July 15, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4598 Biil 70 Public Presentations Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I remember the Minister of Justice and Attorney Gen eral (Mr. Mccrae) flying in a crew from Minnesota so we could meet with them on the drinking and driving legislation. There was a special meeting for that, so let not the Premier condemn those who happen to seek advice from outside the province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier. The hypocrisy of the Premier comes through every time he opens his mouth.

The Premier and various members of cabinet, as he has done this morning, have often and repeatedly lauded the fact that Manitoba is unique in Canada in allowing public comment to committee stage before all bills before the House. For that process to be credible and effective, surely it is necessary that it represent an honest attempt to hear all citizens who wish to be heard. Mr. Speaker, can the Premier explain how arbitrarily disenfranchising hundreds of Manitobans in the middle of the night, at 4 a.m. on Sunday morning, is consistent with any concept or definition of democratic process? Hon.

Gary Fllmon {Premier): Mr. Speaker, I find it interesting that in his

preamble, the true colours of the member for St. James show as he always tried to block our passage of the toughest drinking and driving legislation in this country, and he continues to be opposed to it by virtue of his criticism of bringing in outside experts to help in the legal aspects of that bill. My response to the member for St.

James is very clearly that the democratic aspect of the process is to allow people to legitimately express concerns to assist in making changes that would strengthen and improve the bill, not to have them come in huge numbers, organized and orchestrated by the NOP, the Liberals and the Manitoba Federation of Labour, including bringing not out-of-province speakers but out-of-provi nce organizers to be able to filibuster, block and stifle the passage of that legislation. Tyranny of the minority is not part of democracy.

That is why we followed a legitimate democratic process that gave the opportunity for more than a hundred people to be heard and gave them the opportunity -(in terjection)- Mr. Speaker, everybody had the opportunity to come and be heard. Some did not choose-- An Honourable Member: At four in the morning? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Fllmon: They had opportunities on Tuesday, on Wednesday, on Thursday, on Friday, on Saturday, on Sunday. They had opportunities in the morning, in the afte rnoon , in the evening. Regardless of what shifts they might have worked, they had the opportunity to be heard, Mr. Speaker.

Premier's Comments Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): I think we have it now, Mr. Speaker. It is not the numbers that the Premier objects to. His party lined up hundreds of people for Autopac. It is the content of what they were saying that offends this Premier. They were not saying the right things. That is the bottom line. They were disenfranchised halfway through the process. Will the Premier tell the House today, explain his comment that they were not saying the right things, what they were saying was off the base of what the bill was about? They were all talking about the bill, Mr. Speaker.

The chairperson raised it many times. He kept it relevant. What does the Premier mean when he says he does not like what they said? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I did not say I did not like what they said. As usual, the member for St. James, in his smarmy way, is misrepresenting what I said. If he does that in court, I can understand why he cannot make a living as a lawyer. Point of Order Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs {Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, everyone in this House is su pposed to be considered an honourable member.

No one in this House ever attacks the professional qualifications of memb ers of this House, except the Premier of this province. He has attacked the professional qualifications of members of this House consistently, and I demand that he apologize. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader did not have a point of order, but I would remind all honourable members again, due to the fact of our watching public, that we do pick and choose our words very carefully.

4599 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 15, 1991 *** Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, I cannot imagine the hypocrisy of the Leader of the Liberal Party who last week maligned all rural Manitobans, saying thatthey did not have the ability to judge what was a good investment and what was not. All rural Manitobans did not have the ability to do that. That is the kind of hypocrisy that we get. The reality is-- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I will allow the honourable First Minister to finish his response, but I have not recognized the entire front bench. * (1 355) Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, every single person who signed up to be heard was given two opportunities to be heard at different times of the day in each case. Those people chose not to be there for those hearings. In the past, New Democrats have criticized us for holding public hearings only during the daytime. These public hearings were held du ring the morning, during the afternoon, during the evening and after midnight. It would not matter what shift people work, they had an opportunity to be there and be heard. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, let the record show that some 15 hours were heard after midnight.

Some presenters were called both the first and the second time after midnight, some at 2:30 and again at 4 a.m. in the morning on different mornings. Standing Committees Publlc Presentations Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): For the Premier (Mr. Filmon), can he give any assurances today, as we head into other bills going to committees in this House, ot her contr oversial bills heading to committee, that Manitobans seeking to make their views known to the committee will be heard at a reasonable hour?

I am speaking of all bills presently before the House, including Bill 68, including Bill 59, both of which represent bills no doubt in which large numbers of people will come forward. Will we have to put up with, and will Manitobans have to put up with this kind of arbitrary so-called democracy, whereby people's rights are effectively destroyed at 4 a.m. in the morning? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, let me assure the member for St.

James that all members of the public who wish to make presentation on bills, as is our custom, will be allowed to do so, will be provided with an opportunity to do so. Indeed, if they cannot be in attendance, certainly the government will receive briefs. Indeed, all members of the House will receive briefs, and they will be taken into consideration, as is the normal practice. Rest assured also that the government will treat every presenter with respect, not as the Leader of the Second Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) has, at least as attributed to her by her member for St.

James who said, and I quote, it is part of the record, that in the mind of his Leader, all rural members of this House are not smart, indeed are dumb. That is indeed what the member for St. James said. Point of Order Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, I was referring specifically, and I was speaking specifically to the rural member who is sitting across from me, the member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Connery). Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. * (1 400) Blll70 Public Presentations Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr.

Speaker, I have a follow-up question to the Premier, because I grow increasingly concerned as I hear this Premier describe why they enforced closure on the public of Manitoba on Bill 70 at four o'clock on Sunday. The Premier accused 10 6 presenters of filibustering. The Premier accused them of doing other than what has always been the tradition, to allow full and open explanation of their opinions.

Now, I will ask the Premier directly: Is the reason they forced closure at four o'clock in the morning because 1 06 out of 1 06 said this government was wrong and that this Premier had lied to them when it came to collective bargaining, Mr. Speaker? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

July 15, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4600 Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Thompson has put his question, and I am sure he would like to hear the answer. Hon. Ga ry Fll mon (Premier ): Mr. Speaker, whether I di sagree or agree with anyone' s comments on anything that I or this government does, I will defend to the death their right to make those comments, believe me. Each and every one of those people has the right, if they still want to be heard, to have a written presentation submitted. -(interjection)- We have Report Stage on the bill. Mr.

Speaker, the point of the matter is that out-of-province organizers were brought in and put in names without even checking with people, in some cases, to fill the list of presenters to try and orchestrate a movement on behalf of the New Democratic Party. Despite all of that, they were still given an opportunity to speak not once but twice, and they chose not to be there to speak. They chose not to be there to speak. Under those circumstances, we have done our level best. Mr. Ashton: Mr.

Speaker, how can this Premier say to this House that he will fight to the death to allow people to make their views of concern when there were people in that room this morning who had been told they could come back on Monday, who had come from as far as Thompson, Manitoba, who came before that committee and were denied by the government majority the opportunity to express their views on this bill? How can he make that statement when he knows he forced closure- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, those people were not told by any member of the government or by the Clerk's Office that they could come and present this morning. If they were told false information by the New Democrats or the labour organizers who were brought in from out of province, that is a different story. We do not take any responsibility, and we say shame on the New Democrats. Mr. Ashton: Mr.

Speaker, if he had been there this morning, he would have talked to a number of people, including the woman who attended three times last week, was unable to be there on Saturday because she worked, asked if she could come in and was told there was a hearing Monday. She came in this morning fully expecting to present. My final question to this Premier is-and it is in regard to some of the presentations. I would like to ask him: Is he saying that the many people who came before that committee, who spoke from the heart, some of them in tears, including a woman who has ju st dec lared personal bankrup tcy, Mr.

Speaker, who now is going to be forced, as she said, to live off credit if she can get it, if this bill passes, is he saying that they were filibustering this bill? Is he saying that her comments were not relevant? Why did he cut off hundreds of more Manitobans like that woman presenting-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, I have no criticism whatsoever of all those who spoke on the bill. The fact of the matter is that the New Democrats and their farm team, the Manitoba Federation of Labour, are trying to suggest that somehow these other people were disenfranchised.

They were given the opportunity Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday, and they were called to be able to speak, and they chose not to be there on those cases. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the First Minister obviously did not understand what happened. People were called once between Tuesday and Saturday and called the second time Saturday night. If they- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Thompson does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. Hlghway491 Responsibility Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, this ques tion is to the Minister of Highways and Transportation. The Trembowla Cross of Freedom site is an historic cultural site north of Dauphin near Valley River. In 19 82, the form er New Democratic government designated the site as an historic site in recognition of the first Ukrainian service that was held there in 18 97. In 19 83, the road, some five kilometres, leading to the site was designated a Provincial Road No. 491 . Now on the 1 OOth anniversary of the Ukrainian settlement in Canada, this government is throwing away its responsibility for this road and turning it back to the municipality.

In view of the historic significance of this site, will the Minister of Highways announce today that he will not proceed with turning back this road to the

4601 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 15, 1991 mun icip ality and the turning away of his responsibilities for this road to this historic site, to the Ukrainian community and to all Manitobans? Hon. Albert Drledger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I explained the process the other day in this House. I can indicate to the member that each municipality has been sent a letter identifying certain roads. The next step in the process is that Doug Gourlay, who I have appointed to be the mediator, is going to be making contact with municipalities.

If they have certain roads that they feel strongly about, they can get in touch with the mediator. He will listen to their concerns. He will come back to me and we will sit down and see whether we can have alternate choices that we can consider. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that this minister and other ministers of his government have received resolutions from the Cross of Freedom Incorporated site, will this minister now change his decision, and will he acknowledge to this House today that he was not even aware of the historical significance of this road and this site when he made the decision to turn that back to the municipality? Mr. Drledger: Mr. Speaker, I have indicated that they have 13 districts within the province, and the districts were the ones that by and large gave the first suggestion in terms of roads to be turned back.

If there is a matter of major concern with the municipalities that has historic value, I am prepared to have a mediator sit down with them and look at options. If there is a choice that we can make, we will take it and accommodate them. Mr. Plohman: The mere fact that this government has chosen to take this kind of a decision on the 1 OOth anniversary of Ukrainian settlement in this country is a slap in the face to the Ukrainians, an insult to all Ukrainians and all people in this province. I want to ask the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs.

Mitchelson): In view of the fact that it was her own department through the Historic Resources Comm ittee which recognized the historic significance of the site, the freedom to worship that the Ukrainian settlers sought so desperately when they came to Canada 10 0 years ago this year, will this Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship tell her colleague the Minister of Highways and Transportation that she will not tolerate his offloading, that she will not tolerate this insult and put a stop to this nonsense, of this road change right now? Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

Hansard appears to be having some difficulty with the honourable minister's mike, so I would ask the House for a little bit of co-operation here so that the interject mikes will pick up the remarks of the honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation. Mr. Drledger: Mr. Speaker, the member obviously has difficulty hearing. I just explained what the process is that we have in place, and if there is a major significance to this thing, I am prepared to sit down with my mediator after he has met with the council.

We will take and consider the position and see whether we have other options. *( 14 10 ) Civil Service Appointments Independent Inquiry Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, day by day, the scandal surrounding this governme nt's hiring practices continues to grow, and we learn that the Premier has not been straight in his answers as far as the information he has been giving in this House.

He said, for example, thatthere would not be one, but two, independent inquiries, and they were presently underway, neither of which, we have said from this side of the House, in fact, can look at all of the implications of government hiring. Mr. Speaker, we have now learned that one of those so-c alled independent inquiries is not independent at all.

My question to the First Minister is: When the First Minister said that the Civil Service inquiry was independent because only a two-thirds majority of this House could fire the commissioners, he was clearly leaving the impression that it was the co mm issioner s who were conduc ting the investigation. We have now learned that it is notthe commissioners. How can he now tell this House that it is indeed an independent inquiry that is being conducted? Hon.

Gary Fllmon (Premier): If the member will examine all of the things that I have said about the many questions that have been placed on the issue, what I have said is that the senior staff of the commission are the same senior staff that were there when the Ne w Demo crats were in government, No. 1 ; and No. 2, the commission itself

July 15, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4602 can only be replaced by a two-thirds vote of this House. On both those counts, I say that the Civil Service Commission and its operations remain independent of government. I remind her that there are two separate investigations, one being conducted by the RCMP, and if she wants to suggest that the RCMP are not independent, Mr. Speaker, I would invite her to go and make that charge publicly.

Secondly, the investigation being done by the senior staff of the Civil Service Commission are the same senior staff that were there un der the New Dem ocratic administration which preceded us. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, it is very clear that they are not independent. They report to a deputy minister; they report to political hirings of this particular administration; they report to the Premier. They do not report to the Civil Service Commission per se. Point of Order Mr. Fllmon: The Civil Service Commission staff do not report to a deputy minister. They report to Paul Hart, the commissioner of the-- Mr.

Speaker: The honourable First Minister does not have a point of order. *** Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, can the First Minister tell this House how this is an independent inquiry when according to the Premier himself, they are reporting to a deputy minister? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, the investigation on all of the allegations that have been made will result in a report from the Civil Service Commission to the Deputy Minister of Family Services, the department in which the alleged inc ons is te ncies and irregularities were to have taken place. Mr.

Speaker, we will have that report given to the deputy minister, and the deputy minister will then make recommendations for whatever action is appropriate under the circumstances. Amarjeet Warralch Clvll Service Act Vlolatlon Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker,

Section 12(4) of The Civil Ser vice Act sta tes: "Excep t on the recommendation of the commission, ... no member of the civil service shall receive any remuneration out of the Consolidated Fund in addition to the amount that he is entitled to receive under the pay plan." Can the First Minister tell us today why no waiver has been given for Amarjeet Warraich and that he is indeed being paid as a member of the Manitoba Human Rights Commission when this is a violation of The Civil Service Act? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice. 5eech Gajadharslngh Publlc Inquiry Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, it should come as no surprise to the Premier that the patronage appointments of this government remind me of The Pines scandal, wherein day after day there were new revelations and new pieces of information, and day after day there was nothing but stonewalling and excuses from the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst). The Premier has now admitted that the inquiry into the activities of Seech Gajadharsingh is not being conducted by the board of the Civil Service Commission but by staff members, some of whom approved his appointment to senior positions in Family Services.

Manitobans now know that the Premier has been stalling on a true, full and impartial inquiry, because he and his colleagues do not want more details to come out publicly. My question is for the Premier. How many more revelations will it take before this Premier does the honourable thing and calls for a public inquiry? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, any and all allegations are being examined by both the RCMP and the Civil Service Commission senior staff.

I believe, and I think most people believe, that those independent groups-and the staff are very much independent, because they are not even appointed by a particular government. They have been there and they served the New Democratic government that preceded us. Those are being fully investigated. If he has any other information that he wants to share, I am sure they would be pleased to investigate any allegations that he wants to bring forward.

4603 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 15, 1991 Amarjeet Warralch Appointment Suspension Mr. Doug Martlndale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Premier why this government has not acted on news re ports , particul arly the immigration events and the suspension of Amarjeet Warraich from the Human Rights Commission. Why has he not suspended this appointment? Hon. Gar y Fllmon (Premi er) : Mr. Speaker, primarily because the imm igration events are matters that come under federal jurisdiction. They are being acted upon by the federal-the RCMP in their investigation, that is the primary purpose.

Those allegations, with respect to influence peddl ing, with respect to breaches of the Immi gration Act are being fully, thoroughly and completely investigated by the RCMP. Clvll Service Positions Competitions Mr. Doug Martlndale (Burrows): What is the justification for this Premier continuing to refuse to reveal whether there are any competitions for Civil Service positions at a time when this government laid off hundreds of long-term employees and budgeted millions for severance pay in the current budget? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, we have revealed in a variety of manners in response to questions where there have been cases in which there was not a competition. We have indicated that, and we have indicated where there has been a competition. We have been very open about it and in the case, for instance, of I believe it was seven allegations made in the Winnipeg Sun, only one of them . involved an appointment without competition. That is the way in which this matter has been reviewed, thoroughly and completely and all the information put on the table. Antlraclsm Programs Media Campaign Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radlsson): Mr.

Speaker, it is unfortunate that under this government, racists in the province are having a field day. In our schools, in our universities, hospitals, workplaces, organized racism is on the increase. White supremacists seem to be protected under the law with this government and victims of racism are not. My question is forthe Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship.

Will the minister act to implement a media campaign that was requested by the Manitoba lntercultural Council and many other groups that will counter racist attitudes, power relationships and educate people as to the systemic discrimination abundant in our society? Hon. Bonnie Mltchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, I am sure there are many initiatives that could be undertaken and, in fact, will be undertaken besides a second media campaign.

There seems to be a fairly effective media campaign that is ongoing right now, and I believe the federal government is participating in that media campaign. I do want to indicate that one area that the Manitoba Federation of Labour and the government have been able to work very co-operatively in is the area of racism where the Manitoba Federation of Labour realized within their organization and within their labour community that there was racism. We have participated with them as a provincial government in developing several modules.

We seconded a person over to the Federation of Labour for a two-year period to work co-operatively with them to develop eight different modules that will be used within the workplace, within government and throughout the community to ensure that we are working in a co-operative fashion. I want to commend the Federation of Labour for recognizing the problem within, and also our governmen t in res pond ing to and work i ng co-operatively with them. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Nonpolltlcal Statements Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, wonder if I could have leave to make a nonpolitical statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable First Minister have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? An Honourable Member: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave. It is agreed. Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that all members of the House will be saddened and will join us in expressing our condolences to his wife, Kay, and family of Bill Ziprick on his untimely passing this past weekend.

July 15, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4604 Mr. Ziprick is our former Provincial Auditor and died at the age of 71 on Friday. He was born in Inglis, Manitoba, and served in the Canadian Army and the Royal Canadian Air Force before becoming initially chief accountant for what was then the Manitoba Power Commission, prior to joining the Auditor's staff of the provincial government, ultimately rising to Provincial Auditor status, a status he held for some 12 years from 1971 to 19 83.

Following his retirement from that position we were very pleased to have him accept the appointment as chair of the Manitoba Health Services Commission, a position that he served the province in with great honour and with great capability for the past three years. Certainly on behalf of all our colleagues in the Legislature I extend to his wife, Kay, and his family our sincere condolences. Mr. Leo nar d Evans (Brandon Ea st) : Mr. Speaker, may I have leave for a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Brandon East have leave to make a nonpolitical statement Leave?

It is agreed. * (1 420) Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, I would join with the Premier in extending from this side of the House our condolences to the family on the passing of Bill Ziprick. We had just learned about it, and we are very shocked by his passing. He was indeed a very fine person. I had the privilege of working with him from time to time on various kinds of projects. He was a man who was always ready to go the extra mile in working on behalf of the public of Manitoba. He was always willing and ready to take on extra duties.

I re call him, too, as being a very level-headed person, very friendly person, and one who was ready to laugh even in the middle of a lot of turmoil and difficulties. So, indeed, the people of Manitoba have been very well served by Bill Ziprick. We are very, very sorry to learn of his passing and certainly would extend our very sincere sympathies to his family. Thank you. Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, do I have leave? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Leave. It is agreed. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the Liberal Party, I would like to join in the condolences that will now be extended to the Ziprick family on the loss of Bill Ziprick. Bill Ziprick, as the Provincial Auditor, was one of the more high ranking members of the Civil Service who saw his job very clearly as being totally apolitical in the sense that he was to report on the expenditures and the budgets and the means of the way in which government spends their money under a number of administrations. For that, he has been applauded in the past and will be continued to be respected in the future. Mr.

Ziprick also made himself available to those of us who, as new opposition members, knew very little about the Provincial Auditor's function. I contacted him so that he could explain it to me as a former Provincial Auditor, and he spent the time with me to give me the information and to let me know the breadth and the depth of that particular function. I will always be personally grateful for his time commitment to me at that particular time.

So to his wife and to his family, I extend our sympathy because although 71 seems in our lifetime to be a long span of time, now it is being considered considerably less than the normal life span to which we should all be entitled. *** Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, may I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable minister have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Leave. It is agreed. Mr. Stefanson : Mr.

Speaker, on various occasions, we take the time and opportunity to acknowledge the high calibre of pages we have serving us in this House and, certainly, their strong academic performances and their comm unity involvement. I would like to take a moment today to acknowledge one of our pages, Mr. Hadley Archer, who recently graduated from Westwood Collegiate and was the recipient of the Member of Parliament Award for St. James. He was also the recipient of the St. James-Assiniboia School Board Award for high academic standing.

He also received the Robert Kel low Scholarship, and he was acknowledged as outgoing president of Westwood Collegiate.

4605 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 15, 1991 So I am sure all members of the House join with me in congratulating Hadley and wish him well in his future endeavours. Thank you. Thank you. *** Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if there would be leave to revert to motions for a moment. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to revert to Introduction of Bills? Is there leave? Is there leave to allow the honourable Minister of Justice to introduce a bill? No, leave has been denied. Committee Changes Mr. George Hl ckes (Point Douglas): Mr.

Speaker, our caucus moved some comm ittee substitutions, by leave, to the membership of the Standing Committee on Industrial Relations during the weekend meetings. As was agreed during the weekend meetings, these same substitutions will now be moved in the House. I move, seconded by the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Industrial Relations be amended as follows: Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), moved at 1 :1 7 p.m., Saturday July 13; Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), moved at 1 :17 p.m.; Thompson (Mr. Ashton) for Wolseley (Ms.

Friesen), moved at 11 :36 p.m.; and for July 14 , Wellington (Ms. Barrett) for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), Broadway (Mr. Santos) for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman). I move, seconded by the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Agriculture be amended as follows: Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans), for Tuesday, July 16, 19 91 at 10 a.m. Mr. Speaker: Agreed? Agreed. Before recognizing the honourable government House leader, the honourable member for lnkster with committee changes. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): Mr.

Speaker, with committee change, I move, seconded by the mem ber for Crescentwood (Mr. Carr), that the com position of the Stand ing Comm ittee on Industrial Relations-if I can start over again. Our caucus moved some committee substitutions, by leave, to the mem bership of the Stan ding Comm ittee on Indus trial Relations during the weekend meetings. As was agreed during the weekend meetings, these same substitutions will now be moved in the House. I, therefore, move, seconded by the member for Crescentwood (Mr.

Carr), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Industrial Relations be amended as follows: moved at 12:06 a.m., July 14 , River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs) for St. James (Mr. Edwards); and moved at 3:43 a.m., July 14, St. James (Mr. Edwards) for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs), for the Saturday, July 13 meeting. Mr. Speaker: Agreed? Agreed. Mr. Edward Helwer (Glmll): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Agriculture be amended as follows: Steinbach (Mr. Driedger) for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Rose), and Niakwa (Mr.

Reimer) for Emerson (Mr. Penner). I move, seconded by the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Industrial Relations be amended as follows: Emerson (Mr. Penner) for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine)-this was at6:35 p.m.; and Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) for Emerson (Mr. Penner), at 1 :1 5 p.m. on July 13 . I move, seconded by the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Industrial Relations be amended as follows: Lakeside (Mr. Enns) for Assiniboia (Mrs. Mcintosh), that was moved at 12 :53 p.m.; Niakwa (Mr.

Reimer) for Riel (Mr. Ducharme) at 2:07 p.m.; La Verendr ye (Mr. Sveinson) for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer), at4:45 p.m. ;Assiniboia (Mrs. Mcintosh) for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson), at 11 :05 p.m.; River East (Mrs. Mitchelson} for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik), at 4:03 a.m.; Riel (Mr. Ducharme) for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), on July 14 . I move, seconded by the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Industrial Relations be amended as follows: Niakwa (Mr. Reimer) for Lakeside (Mr. Enns), at 10 :04 a.m .; and Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey) for Assiniboia (Mrs. Mcintosh). Mr.

Speaker: Agreed? Agreed. ORDE RS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, my intentions today are to

July 15, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4606 call a small number of bills and then move into Estimates for review. Firstly, I would ask whether there is a willingness to waive private members' hour? Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private members' hour? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No? Leave denied. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, would you call the bills in the following order? Firstly, Report Stage, I would ask that we do the report stage of the bills as listed; secondly, Second Reading, Bill 75; and then the bills in this order: Bill 4, Bill 59, Bill 68. Then, Mr.

Speaker, I will move the motion to go into Estimates. REPOR T STAGE Biii 8-T he Vltal Statistics Amendment Act Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): On behalf of the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer), I move, seconded by the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Downey), that Bill 8, The Vital Statistics Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les statistiques de l'etat civil, reported from the Standing Committee on Law Amendments, be concurred in. Motion agreed to. Biil 12 -The Court of Queen's Bench Small Clalms Practices Amendment Act Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae), I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), that Bill 12 , The Court of Queen's Bench Small Claims Practices Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur le recouvrement des petites creances a la Cour du Banc de la Reine, as amended and reported from the Standing Committee on Law Amendmen ts, be concurred in. Motion agreed to. • (1 430) Biii 36-The Legal Aid Services Society of Manitoba Amendment Act Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae), I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), that Bill 36, The Legal Aid Services Society of Manitoba Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Societe d'aide juridique du Manitoba, reported from the Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendm ents, be concurred in. Motion agreed to. Biii 52-The Family Maintenance Amendment Act Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae), I move, seconded by the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Downey), that Bill 52, The Family Maintenance Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur !'obligation alimentaire, as amen ded and re ported from the Standing Committee on Law Amendments, be concurred in. Motion agreed to. Biii 60-The Law Society Amendment Act Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae), I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), that Bill 60, The Law Society Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Societe du Barreau, reported from the Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendments, be concurred in. Motion agreed to. SECOND READINGS Biii 75-Th e Manitoba Employee Ownership Fund Corporation and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness), that Bill 75, The Manitoba Employee Ownership Fund Corporation and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi constituant en corporation le Fonds de participation des trav ailleurs du Manitoba et modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, it gives me pleasure today to introduce for second reading, Bill 75, The Manitoba Employee Ownership Fund Corporation

4607 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 15, 1991 and Consequential Amendments Act. The act has as its primary purpose the establishment of the Cr ocus Inves tmen t Fund, a labour -dir ec ted investment fund whose express objective is to establish a unique vehicle for broadening employee ownership of Manitoba companies. The internationalization of business is forcing small, open economies like Canada's to undertake a rapid restructuring of its industrial relationships.

This is especially difficult in western Canada whose economies are sensitive to national monetary and fiscal policies motivated primarily by economic conditions in central Canada. New business venture opportunities in western Canada are a long way from the interest of Bay Street investors. Also in western Canada, export commodities are priced externally by global market factors. Mr. Speaker, in vestmen t deci sions ar e fundamental to any industrial restructuring.

One goal this government has und ertaken, as an important component of the economic renewal strategy announced during the last provincial election, is the repatriation of critical investment decisions. We want to empower Manitobans with the knowledge that they can draw on their existing capacity as savers and investors of capital, to influence provincial economic growth in a positive way, to create jobs and to sustain our standard of living.

Through a long-term capital retention strategy, we hope to harness the contributions of individuals, organized labou r, small business, indus try, institutional players, such as pension funds, Crown corporations and other public sector associations, to overcome some of the shortcomings of traditional sources of investment in our economy.

This government views capital retention initiatives such as employee ownership as mechanisms through which Manitoba companies can attract and retain talented, qual ified personal , impr ove workplace relations, raise capital through loyal and patient investors and empower employees to exercise greater local ownership and control of their own economic future. As an economic policy tool, the employee buy-out mechanism envisioned and enabled by this legislative framework we are introducing today is expected to provide a hopeful alternative to plant closings and layoffs in certain circumstances.

For example, wher e co rporate me rger s or consolidations, retiring owners, or the unavailability of nec ess ary expansion capital threaten the continuation of Manitoba businesses, acquisition of the enterprise by its employees may hold the best promise for job retention and creation and for community development.

As an ins tr umen t of capital retention, the employee ownership fund complements other economic renewal initiatives directed at local capital market formation, such as the series of HydroBond issues, the creation of the Vision Capital Fund, introduction of the rural community bonds and the establishment of the Manitoba Mineral Exploration Expense. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) Before proceeding to a thumbnail explanation of the bill, Mr. Speaker, I would like to give due credit to and acknowledge the contribution of the Manitoba Federation of Labour.

As a government, our relationship with the Manitoba Federation of Labour is severely stressed as you know by Bill 70. However, putting those differences aside for the purposes of the present discussion, I would like to give credit to that organization for focusing substantial resources on an economic renewal ini tiative which is intended to em power all Manitobans with the capacity to positively influence economic progress in this province. The Manitoba Federation of Labour from 19 88 to 1990 participated in a federally funded worker buy-out project, sponsored by the Canadian Co -ope rative Association.

The detailed design of the tax-advantage d, employee ownership vehicle proposed for use by the Crocus Investment Fund is derived largely from the research undertaken in support of that project. With the keen interest the government of Manitoba has in respect of leading the way toward broader local ownership in the Manitoba economy, a very important convergence in the policy agendas of organized labour and government lies before us.

Perhaps this initiative will help us begin dialogue about the challenges that government has in common with organized labour and lead us away from a preoccupation with issues in which we differ, such as wage settlements in the public sector. The rapid changes and the challenges imposed by the new world economic order must be

July 15, 1991 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 4608 addressed. The government of Manitoba is in agreemen t with the Feder ation of Labour in acknowledging that employee ownership can play a positive role in the industrial restructuring process. Madam Deputy Speaker, the concept of incanting employees with equity and of sharing profits with employees is not new. In the United States, em ployee stock ownership plans have been operating for years.

While em ployee stock ownership plans have served as a primary vehicle for man ufacturing sector buy-outs in closure situations in the United States, the absence of large labour-dir ected equity pools in that country limits their applicability. In Canada, several provi nces, Quebec, Sask atchewan, and Briti sh Columbia have authorized labour-sponsored investment funds and assisted their capitalization through the provision of investment tax credits such as matched by the federal government.

However, these investment funds have not been designed to provide for direct ownership or control by emp loyees of the companies whose stock has been purchased by the fund. The uniqueness of the legislative framework bef or e us today lie s in the cou pling of a tax-advant aged, labour investment fund with an employee benefit trust vehicle which is the deferred profit sharing plan to which owner's equity can be transferred to employees in a transaction which is itself nontaxable.

In short, Madam Deputy Speaker, Bill 75 and the incorporation thereby of the Crocus Investment Fund is uniquely progressive in its purposes, which are: 1) the direct control of its investments by the employees affected; 2) the leveraging of traditional sources of financing which are normally reluctant to assist employee start- ups or buy-outs; and, 3) the co-ope rative mo del of governa nce, one shareholder, one vote. " (1 440) As a prototype or model for encouraging broader ownership of Manitoba businesses, Madam Deputy Speaker, we expect that the loyal opposition parties will be supportive of this initiative.

I note with interest that the government of Ontario has recently announced its intent to follow Manitoba's lead and to establish a fund based essentially on the same principles as those enabled by Bill 75. In terms of the mechanics of the bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would defer detailed discussion of Bill 75 to committee, but I would like to very briefly outline the mechanics of employee ownership as envisioned in this act.

The first step in the Manitoba strategy to increase the participation of employees and other individuals in the ownership of Manitoba companies is the creating of a government- and labour-sponsored mutual fund, the Crocus Investment Fund. This fund will be prescribed under federal income tax legislation providing individual Manitoba investors with a matching 20 percent tax credit from the federal and provincial governments to a yearly maximum tax credit of $1 ,400 per individual.

The legislation before the House details the operating principles and restrictions of the fund and will, I am sure, be reviewed prior to introduction of the act for third reading. The second step, unique to Manitoba, is the structuring of a tax exempted trust vehicle for passing control of ownership through to employees of participating Manitoba companies and devising a prototype trust structure to act as an acquisition vehicle.

The intent has been to avoid immediate taxation of the employees, avoid all taxation of the trust, permit the em ployees to finance the acquisition on a tax free basis, and to allow for control of the corporation by the em ployee shareholders on a one-worker, one-vote basis. Again, the legal research conducted on behalf of the Canadian Co-operative Association has been extr emely useful in devisin g such a trus t mechanism. The mechanism for accomplishing the above, Madam Deputy Speaker, is the Canadian equivalent to the United States employee stock ownership plan and the deferred profit sharing plan.

As an employee benefit plan, the deferred profit sharing plan is itself nontaxable and will service as a mechanism through which owners' equity will be exchanged for payment financed by the Crocus Investment Fund.

Madam Deputy Speaker, to kic k-start the capitalization of the Crocus Investment Fund, the government of Manitoba will purchase $2 million in share capital of the fund, potentially providing a further $2 million by way of loan agreemen t depending upon how successful the fund is at attracting nongo vernmen t inves tmen t from Manitoba employees by way of payroll deduction and from individual investors who will be attracted by the provision of the investment tax credits.

4609 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 15, 1991 So, in

summary, Madam Deputy Speaker, the government is very excited to be introducing this employee ownership initiative as a key component of its larger economic renewal strategy. It is hoped that as Manitobans grow in their appreciation of how their own capacities can be channelled in support of positive economic growth that we can together begin to address the myriad of challenges facing us as we attempt to retain a quality of life which is envied in other parts of the world. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Biii 4-The Health Services Insurance Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 4, on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), the Health Services Insurance Amdnement Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'asurance-maladie, standing in the name of the honourable member for lnkster. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): Madam Deputy Speaker, I had adjourned debate in order for our Health critic to be able to debate it today so it can go on to committee. Mr. Gui zar Ch eema (The Mapl es) : Madam Deputy Speaker, I am very pleased to speak on this Bill 4, The Health Insurance Amendment Act. I will be very brief in my comments and in terms of the contents of the bill.

As the minister has put forward this bill to correct some of the problems and one of the major problems which was identified last year with the abuse in terms of the taxpayers' money in one of the clinics, I think this bill will be very helpful to correct tha t pro blem. In fact, a simi lar amendment has been brought forward by the member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs). Madam Deputy Speaker, this bill, as the minister has said, will deal with a number of issues.

I will go through a few of the issues which are quite important in terms of the agreement previously signed under this act, as referenced to the Medical Review Committee. The present bill will continue to follow those guidelines, but if there is no agreement, then the Lieutenant-Go vernor, by Order-in-Cou ncil, can appoint thre e individuals, three mem bers, to investigate if there are disparities in terms of the practice of a given physician and to recover monies which, if they find those funds, were given to a physician when that individual did not fit the norm for the practice.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I personally have, and from our party, no difficulty with that as long as there is a clarification made who will be those three members, what will be their qualifications, how the selection will be made, what will be their term of reference and how they will operate. Will they operate on a similar formation as the Medical Review Committ ee, or will they be looking at different aspects? I think that needs to be clarified and, during the committee hearing process, would like to have some clarification.

Also, there is one aspect in this bill which says that the Hea lth Services Comm ission can investigate, by notification to a given practitioner or a given facility, the pattern of practice, go through the books, and also the other matter relating to the financial aspect. That needs to be clarified in terms of what will be the time frame, how that physician or facility will be notified and how much time will be given, because you do not want everybody to be suspicious all the time. Somebody could walk into somebody's office and say, I want to see your books.

That may not be practical, and that may not be possible. I think that needs to be clarified in this act, which I find quite interesting. Certainly the intention is a good one, and we have no difficulty with that. The other aspect of the bill which we really like is the inclusion of the facilities other than hospitals which provide the necessary care. I think that will be very helpful.

Madam Deputy Speaker, there are a number of other aspects I think need to be heard in detail from the various groups who are interested to make presentations and at the committee stage will have more input without going further and spending time in the second reading. We will be very open, but we do support this bill in principle. There may be one or two areas I have expressed concern in, and I am sure the minister will be able to explain those things so that we can have a good handle on this bill.

As I understand, the passage of this bill is very im portant, because we have combined both departments, Health Services Commission and

July 15, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 4610 Manitoba Health. To give the legal authority to the Health Services Comm ission, we must have this bill. I think it should go through the committee stage as soon as possible. With that, I will end my remarks and will be very open here for the public and make sure that the views are heard and some of the clarifications can be made. Thank you. Madam Depu ty Sp eaker: The honourable Minister of Health, to close debate. * (1 450) Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Health): Thank you. Madam Dep uty Speaker : The honourable member for Thompson. Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): Yes, I will just make a few comments. I know the Minister of Health is going to have a few additional comments afterwards, Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to indicate that in bills such as this, in comparison perhaps to some of the mo re controversial items this session, I would note that we have been moving such bills to committee probably in a more orderly way than we have in many other sessions. I know there are a number of members who have been here as long as I have and longer.

One of the more unfortunate aspects on a lot of bills, and I do not mean to call them routine bills, because this particular bill might be described as more routine than other bills, but it is still obviously of some substance. Any bill before this Legislature, any bill that has come this far has to have some import, Madam Deputy Speaker. I think it is fortunate in this time that we are able to follow the committee process in a more orderly manner and, in fact, in a few minutes, unless the minister plans on filibustering this bill on second reading- Hon. James Downey (Min ister of Northern Affairs): Never. Mr.

Ashton: Well, the Minister of Northern Affairs says never. There was an occasion earlier in this session where there was a bill that was ready for passage through to second reading where the minister decided that he just could not restrain himself and had some comments. I do not know, Madam Deputy Speaker, if that will be indeed the case on this particular bill. In fact, I hope in many ways it is not, because there is a time for lengthy debate. I am the last one to lecture members about speaking extensively, I suppose, after on another bill this session having spoken six or seven days.

I did want to make the point, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I think this is the process that we are following on this bill that should be followed on far more bills than has been done in the past. New members may not be aware of this, but traditionally many bills such as this have been held until the last day of the session and then passed. In fact, in many sittings, I have seen where we end up in the situation that bills are passed through second reading, go to committee, go through the report stage and third reading on the same day.

I have seen many occasions where we run into difficulties where there are amendments that are brought in at comm ittee without notice, Madam Deputy Speaker- Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I must draw to the attention of the honourable member for Thompson that indeed the Clerk has drawn to my attention, and in double checking with Hansard, that you indeed are declared to have spoken to this bill. You took the adjournment for the honourable member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis). Mr. Ashton: I was not aware that would be counting as my speaking, Madam Deputy Speaker. I apologize.

I was just indicating, once again, we are willing going to pass this .... Madam Deputy Speaker: I thank the honourable member for Thompson for those remarks. The honourable Minister of Health, to close debate. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Healt h): Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to thank my honourable friends for their contribution, to indicate to my honourable friend the member for The Maples (Mr.

Cheema), I believe that the concerns he has expressed at debate on second reading have been covered off in terms of the composition of the Medical Review Committee because, in essence, the amendments that are encompassed in Bill 4 have been signed off, if you will, through a negotiating process with the MMA and with the College of Physicians and Surgeons as a second partner in that medical review process and the Manitoba Health Services Commission, so I think they have covered off any of the concerns my honourable friend might have.

In terms of inspection of other facilities, of course, we are following procedures that are in place in at

4611 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 15, 1991 least a couple of other provinces because we have had circumstances where the system has been improperly billed for services not performed. I think everyone can appreciate and agree that we should be only paying for services that are properly delivered and needed medical services today because the financial constraints we face and every province faces just dictates that kind of logic. I thank my honourable friends for their comments to the bill.

It has been about seven or eight weeks that we have had it, and now we can get it to committee and allow Manitobans to continue with their presentations. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Madam Deputy Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading of Bill 4. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Madam Deputy Speaker: Agreed and so ordered.

Biii 59-The Workers Compensation Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 59, on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik), The Workers Compensation Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les acciden ts du travail et diverses dispositions legislatives), standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). Is there leave to have the bill stand? Stand. Bill 68-The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act

(2) Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 68, on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst), The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act (2) (Loi no 2 modifiant la

Loi sur la Ville de Winnipeg), standing in the name of the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen). Stand. *** Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Madam Deputy Speaker, would you call one more bill, please, before I call the Estimates motion? That would be Bill 51 . Biil 51 -The Pharmaceutical Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 51 , on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), The Pharmaceutical Act (Loi sur les pharmacies), standing in the name of the honourable member for lnkster. Mr.

Kevin Lamou reux (ln kster) : Madam Deputy Speaker, I, too, would like to see this bill go into comm ittee today, and in fact adjourned debate so our Health critic could have the opportunity speak to it and get it into committee. Mr. Gui zar Ch eema (The Map les) : Madam Deputy Speaker, I must apologize that last Friday I was not here because we sat in the committee on Thursday night until 3:30, and it was not humanly possible to be here and speak on this bill, but I will be very brief on this bill also because this bill has really come after five or six years of consultation.

I had the opportunity to meet with the Pharmaceutical Association, and they are in fact very pleased with the bill. I think the bill basically replaces the previous act in almost entire formation and will give, basically, new meaning to the disciplinary process, including streamlining the procedure to allow for the informal resolut ion of compla ints and to subject the corporation to the disciplinary process and also make some sanctions significantly now up to as much as $25,000 for people who will be in violation of this act.

Other than that, Madam Deputy Speaker, this bill is very much-t here are a lot of factors in this bill and we have no difficulty with most of them. There are a couple of questions I have, but I will leave it till the committee stage and make sure that we hear from the Pharmaceutical Association and other individuals who are concerned about this bill. They can come forwar d and mak e some recom mendations.

One aspect which is quite important, we must consider that places where there is only one physician and there is no pharmacy, the provision will be made for that physician to operate a pharmacy and as long as the dispensing is done for his own patients. I think that has been addressed to some extent in this bill, and I think that is a very positive step. There was some criticism that may be ignored, but that could be taken into consideration whenever there is a need, and I think specific application can be made.

July 15, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4612 As, I am aware of that, there has been consu ltation with MMA, with the College of Physicians and Surgeons and various consumer groups and most of them are very pleased with the bill. It is almost after 21 years, this bill has come forward in a major formation. Our party will support and, without wasting any further time, will look forward at the committee stage and make sure if there is clarification that has to be made, if there are any minor amendments which the minister is going to bring or the other party or we may have, I will look forward to that stage.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for letting me speak on this bill. Madam Depu ty Sp eaker: The honourable Minister of Health, to close debate. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Health) : Madam Deputy Speaker, I simply thank both opposition parties for their corn ments on this bill and look forward to discussion at committee stage. Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading of Bill 51 (The Pharmaceutical Act;

Loi sur les pharmacies). Is it the will of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Madam Deputy Speaker: Agreed? Agreed and so ordered. House Business Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): I would like to announce that the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections will be called Thursday, 10 a.m., in Room 255, to consider motions that may be referred tomorrow or the next day. Madam Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Rural Development (Mr.

Downey), that Madam Deputy Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into committee to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. • (1 500) Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for Fitness and Sport; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for Department of Labour. CONCURR ENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPL Y SUPPL Y- FITNESS AND SPORT Mr.

Deputy Chairman (Marcel Laurendeau): Committee of Supply, please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the Estimates of Fitness and Sport. When the comm ittee last sat, it had been considering item 1. (

a) Fitness Directorate: (1 ) Salaries, on page 7 4 of the Estimates book and on page 84 of the Supplementary Information book. Shall the item pass? The honourable minister, you wanted to introduce another - Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the admin istration of The Fitness and Amateur Sport Act): Justforthe benefit of the members who are here today, there is Mr. Jim Evanchuk, who is dir ector of our Fitness Directorate, and Janet McMahon is our senior sport consultant with the Sport Directorate. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): I am interested in the task force that you are establishing.

Could you give me some more information on that and when you expect it to report? Mr. Stefanson: I just wanted to clarify procedurally how we are going to handle. That question, I assume, is referring to the task force with the Manitoba Sports Federation, which I would be prepared to answer at this time, but since we are under the Fitness Directorate, maybe we should work through the Fitness Directorate and then move on to Sport, if that is agreeable. These are two separate directorates. Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I have a few policy questions in terms of the major direction this department is going to take. I first must say that this is the minister who has definitely put a first Manitoba policy for Sports, and I think that is a positive step. At least people will know where this government wants to go ahead, but I am a little bit disappointed, as I was during the budget time, how this government has cut almost $7.96 million of the budget for this department and the funding they were giving to the Manitoba Sports Federation.

Can the minister tell us how he was able to justify, or who made the decision in the cabinet to cut funding at that level of almost $8 million? I think that really tells a story that maybe the minister is serious,

4613 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 15, 1991 but his cabinet colleagues may not be serious about the Manitoba Sport Federation's role and how they will play a major role in the future. Mr. Deputy Chalrman: Order, please. Could I ask the honourable members if they wanted to ask any questions pertinent to the Fitness Directorate? If not, possibly we could pass the Fitness Directorate and then deal with the Sport issues. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we can ask questions on all those things. This is basically a policy question. It could fit into any place. I have no difficulty. Mr.

Deputy Chairman: We have been dealing, the honourable member for The Maples, with line by line, and at this time, we are dealing with the Fitness Directorate: (1 ) Salaries $1 1 7,800. The questions that have been put forward so far by the honourable memb ers have been towards the Spor ts Directorate. If there are no questions in the Fitness Directorate, possibly we could pass that. Mr. Cheema: Which page is that? Mr. Deputy Chairman: Page 74. It is on page 84 of your Supplementary. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, can the minister tell if there are any positions that are still vacant out of this department?

Mr. Stefanson: There are three positions, and they are all filled, the same number of positions as last year. * (1 51 0) Mr. Cheema: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, can the minister tell if there are any positions that are still vacant out of this department? Mr. Stefanson: There are three positions, and they are all filled, the same number of positions as last year. Mr. Cheema: Can the mini ster give us the qualifications of these individuals who are part of this directorate? Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, I should have said at the outset, when we did start the process at the end of last week, we spent about the first 20 minutes on Fitness, as you will recall. The member for Radisson (Ms. Carilli) had several questions. I did go through the three employees at that time. I could certainly repeat it. I went through their qualifications, their background and their academic qualifications and so on. It will be in the record. Mr. Cheema: I will read Hansard. Basically my concern is tha t-I am not questioning the individuals' capabilities.

I just wanted myself to be familiar with their qualifications in terms of so their role fits into this Fitness Directorate, and I just wanted to be aware of that. Other than that, I do not have any questions on this

section if you want to pass. Ms. Friesen: Looking specifically at Fitness then, is the focus of the department on the training of leaders only, or where does-what I am looking for really is the way in which the department wants fitness to develop in the schools. One of the broader purposes of the department is to relate to other departments, recreation, education, health, et cetera. Most of your report, as I read it, on fitness talked about leadership development and rather community development in fitness. Could we talk a little bit about connection with the schools? Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, the Fitness Direc torate at the post-secondary level does support through a funding grant to the Faculty of Physical Education and Recreational Studies at the University of Manitoba.

It also does get involved at the elementary level in terms of supporting, again as the honourable member suggested, the qualified fitness leaders to ensure high standards interacting really with the Department of Education in terms of some of the benefits of fitness, increasing the awareness and encouragement in terms of ensuring that fitness and physical education activities are an important part of the educational system. Ms. Friesen: Is the department then involved-I was not sure how to interpret what you are saying. You said, fitness awareness, elementary schools. Are you actually training teachers?

Are you providing extra courses? Are you involved at the level of teacher training at the University of Manitoba for elem en tary school teachers, or is this post-qualif ication training? Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairman, we will participate in in-services through the educational system but basically on an as-requested basis. We will also provide resource material on fitness and fitness awareness to the schools and educational facilities. The participation at the actual school division and school level is on an as-requested basis. Ms. Friesen: How many school divisions have requested that in the past year?

July 15, 1991 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4614 Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairman, special area groups, I am informed, convene in the fall, reparticipate in those functions and provide both verbal and resource material. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairman, special area groups, I am informed, convene in the fall and we participate in those functions and provide both verbal and resource material. Ms. Friesen: How many school divisions?-is the question. Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, it is open to all the school divisions and most participate, but we could certainly undertake to actually give a direct quantification to the honourable member. Ms. Friesen: That is what I am looking for. I am looking particularly for the relationship between the use of this service in the urban areas and in the rural areas. School divisions which claim, for example, that they do not us ually have access to specialization or to certain kinds of specialties, I am interested in whether they are using this program and to what extent.

So rural and northern ones versus the participation rate of urban schools. Mr. Stefanson: We will certainly undertake to provide the honourable member with that detailed breakdown. Well, again, as part of a resource, Mr. Deputy Chairman, the Blueprint for Action for Children and Youth in terms of the benefits in participation and fitness is available, and apparently well utilized by school divisions and schools throughout our province, but in terms of the very specific question the honourable member asked me, we will provide the breakdown of who really has been participating. Ms.

Friesen: Thank you, and does this department have the capacity to operate with French school divisions, or with immersion programs? Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairman, most of the resource material is available in both official languages, but in terms of the language capabilities of the staff, that is not the case. The written material primarily, most of it is available, but in terms of service in the language provided by our staff, that is not the case. Ms.

Friesen: I wonder if the minister would like to reflect on that, particularly in view of the Gallant report, which suggests there might be French school divisions. I wonder if that is something you might want to consider in the future, particularly if the kind of training that you say you are giving is awareness training; essentially it is workshopping, it is oral presentations. I guess what I am asking is, do you see a need for this department to develop those capabilities or to have them on contract? Mr.

Stefanson: It apparently has not been a problem to date, and the teachers in those various communities have been co-operative in working with the department in translation and so on, but in terms of the ongoing fulfillment of the program, that is something we will take a look at. Ms. Friesen: In the second part of your first answer some time ago, you suggested elem entary education or at least teacher training in that area, and you have a contract with the University of Manitoba for, what? I wonder if you could expand on that. Is that research or is that also in the area of training? • (1 520) Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, it is fitness and leadership development at all levels. Ms. Friesen: That is, you contract out your responsibilities to the University of Manitoba to conduct these in the schools. I do not understand what the University of Manitoba is doing for this contract. How much is the contract, by the way? Mr.Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairman, courses are conducted throughout the province not only at the school level but at the community level for anybody who wants to become an accredited fitness leader. The funding for 19 91 -92 being provided is $60,000. Ms.

Friesen: Is this an annual contract, or do you have a five-year contract, or is it arranged each year? Mr. Stefanson: It is annual, and we do it annually. Ms. Friesen: Could we look at the other areas of school participation?

It seems to me that the research I have read on this, and it may certainly be some years out of date, is that it is at the junior high school level that you lose the fitness, that the elementary school children, generally, where you emphasize the department's emphasis was, is less of a problem, although presumably by grades 5 and 6, there are some problems there, particularly with girls, and that over the years that continues. The gap widens in fitness participation and in levels of performance between males and females.

4615 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 15, 1991 Should there not be an emphasis or at least some focus upon the high school and junior high school levels? I wonder -the department has obviously had long experience and research in this-what your thinking is and what your priorities are in that area. Mr. Stefa nson : Mr. Deput y Chairman, the honourable member is certainly correct that the drop-off, I guess, really escalates at the end of the school years. One thing we have been doing is working with community groups, with municipal organizations like the City of Winnipeg.

In fact, we are in the process of working with them in terms of the Fit-4- Fun program and making sure that the opportunities do exist at that stage to participate in recreational, fitness and sport activities. That involves working co-operati vely with Sport, with Health and with other departments of government, which is being done. In fact, that was part of the Sport policy announcement, was the interaction of all of those departments. Ms.

Friesen: I recognize that the gap does increase after children leave school, but it seems to me that you have the opportunity while they are in junior high school and high school to educate, to develop participation, develop skill levels, in a variety of areas that you do not necessarily have after school. Also, while they are in school, you have relative equality of access to facilities, which you do not necessarily have after people have left school, and their economic condition becomes perhaps more significant in affecting their rate of participation. Mr.

Stefa nso n: I probably agree with the honourable member that I think at the young age in the early school years it is an opportunity to help make fitness a way of life, and clearly we are working towards doing that, working with other departments, working with the Department of Education under a student leadership program, a quality daily phys. ed. program, encouraging teachers themselves to become role models and leading healthy, active lifestyles and so on. Certainly we recognize the opportunity and the need that exists there, and are working towards that. Ms.

Friesen: Could you tell us a little more about both of those programs? I am particularly interested in that one that you call the quality daily fitness activity-was that it?-because in fact students after Grade 5 simply do not have daily physical education in our schools, and by Grade 12 in fact, in some high schools, they do not have physical education at all. Mr.

Stefanson: The quality physical education is really a committee of teachers from throughout the province representing physical education, and we interact with that group in terms of many of the issues that we have already discussed here this afternoon in terms of involvement, awareness, value of fitness and so on, so they provide a vehicle to enhance the whole program. Ms. Friesen: What exactly do you do? Do you call the meetings? Do you write the agendas? Do you provide the research? Do you offer training? Who initiates these? What is the role of the department here? Mr.Stefanson: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, we meet, on average, quarterly with them, more often at their initiation. I gather they are a very active and involved group, but we are meeting with them approximately quarterly. Ms. Friesen: The other area that you mentioned you were working on was student leadership. What is the role of the department in that? Mr. Stefanson: Part of that is interacting with groups such as, an example would be the Interlake Municipal Recreation Association, in terms of our department working with them, in terms of the development and involvement of use in fitness, fitness programs, and so on. Ms.

Friesen: So that is not working in the school system, it is working with municipalities. Mr. Stefanson: Our primary contact is, in this particular case, with the municipal organization but it does not preclude and ultimately leads to involvement, certainly, with the school divisions and with the school, but the initial contact is the municipal organization. Ms. Friesen: You have given me the example of a rural municipality, what about the city of Winnipeg? For example, is this a broad-scale policy or is that just for rural areas? * (1 530) Mr.

Stefanson: It is correct that the one I referred to is a model of rural Manitoba. We do work co-opera tively with the City of Winnipeg. I mentioned a while ago about an initiative that we will be announcing and working on this fall, a Fit-4- Fun program with the City of Winnipeg. Certainly, through their Leisure Guides, other publications, we

July 15, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4616 use their services. They provide a very useful vehicle to get to the community and to interact with the schools and school divisions. Ms. Friesen: I started out on this line of questioning by looking at your statement that you interact with the education department and of your activity in fitness in schools. The answer I got was that you contract out the post-s econdary to the University of Manitoba and that you had this quality daily program and studen t leadership progra m.

Student leadership does not seem to involve many schools from the answers that I have heard so far. The quality daily program essentially means meeting with, four times a year, at the initiative of teachers in Manitoba. It does not seem to me to be attacking the issue of the decline of fitness in the junior and senior high schools, of the declining time that is al lotted to fitness, particularly, in senior high schools, and of the gap between male and female fitness levels by the time they leave school. Mr.

Stefanson: I want to assure the honourable member, and I guess I took part of it for granted, unfortunately, that the directorate does work very closely with the Department of Education in terms of encouraging the utilization of our resource material, in terms of encouraging participation of the youth in the various programs and events that we are a part of, whether it is Canada's Fitweek, or whatever events take place, and some of the other things we touched on in terms of interacting with the teachers and so on.

Certainly, I do not want to unde rstate the importance of that, really, the delivery of most of the programs in the school system we have talked about are through the Department of Education. Our department does work closely with them in terms of the whole issue of awareness, involvement, and so on, and recognizes the importance of doing what we have already discussed in terms of making sure that fitness becomes a way of life. Ms. Friesen: Physical education and the teaching of physical education is something different than fitness awareness.

The department's responsibility is for fitness awareness and the promotion of fitness. I wonder if you could tell me if you are satisfied with what is happening in the Department of Education? You know, you can Uaise all you like and offer them all the materials you have, but the impression I have, and I do not know if you have any further research on this, is that in fact conditions are deteriorating in the schools, certainly in terms of time allotted. Now I am not necessarily arguing that time allotted translates directly into decline in fitness. It may not, but I do not know.

I am looking for some information from you on this and what your response is to the Department of Education. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I guess, if anything, the awareness and receptivity of schools and school divisions are continuing to improve, grow and increase, I think, as society in general, so there are tremendous opportunities in terms of working with the school divisions and the Department of Education, which in fact we are doing, as we have already touched on in terms of awareness.

The school divisions have a function and a role to play through physical education, participation and awareness, but it goes beyond that into community events and families, so back to what I talked about with the honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Carilli) when we first started, really, in our view, it does straddle several departments. Education is unquestionably one of the most important; Health is certainly one of the most important. As our staff indicated, if anything, there is much more of an awareness and appreciation for fitness and healthy lifestyles.

Clearly, we have seen tremendous growth in that area in the last several years, anticipating that that will continue to be the case, so we will continue to work and strive for new ideas and new initiatives with departments like Education, Health and so on. Ms. Friesen: Just a last question before I pass it over to the member for Radisson (Ms. Carilli). What is the state of research on this? You must keep the numbers from the Canada fitness test, for example, and apply them to Manitoba. Does this department or does the Department of Education do its own testing?

What has happened over the last five years in fitness testing for childr en aged-what?- 12 to 18 , junior and senior high? What is happening in Manitoba in terms of that gap between male and female participation and fitness levels? Mr. Stefanson : There certainly are statistics available on the traditional Manitoba school fitness program, but as has been indicated through the directorate, the whole criteria and statistics and development of the assessment is in the process of

4617 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 15, 1991 being changed. Our directorate has been involved in that. We are anticipating that to occur by this fall and would then work with the schools and school divisions in terms of implementing that.

We can certainly provide the traditional numbers in terms of how the program was conducted before through the Department of Education, and we can undertake to get those for you in terms of showing how the participation and how the level of fitness has been, but as is indicated, much of that has almost turned off some children participants and so on because of the nature of the evaluation and so on -(interjection)- That is right. I mean, in terms of some of the things that- there is a growing awareness that fitness goes beyond many of the traditional types of things that were done in the past.

It, like everything else, is changing, and our directorate is involved in helping to change the whole assessment program. • (1 540) Ms. Friesen: Do you mean you are moving away from the Canada fitnes s test to something developed in Manitoba, or is this a new type of Canada-wide assessment program? Mr. Stefanson: It is a Canada-wide program. Ms. Friesen: It will be in place when? Mr. Stefanson: The first pilots will be this fall in locations to be determined, Mr. Deputy Chairman. Ms.

Friesen: Does that address students right up to age 18 , because Canada fitness tests, we certainly do not see them much beyond about Grade 8. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairman, there will now be four age categories to more appropriately reflect the needs within those categories, 5-8, 9-1 1 years, 12-15 years and 16-18 years. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster) : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I just have a few questions for the minister regarding the Fitness and Sports.

One is in regard to--1 know I watch very little television, but I can recall seeing commercials where we see that Participaction, and I believe that is the federal government's commercial. Does the province advertise fitness awareness at all through any media outlets? Mr. Stefanson: There is no generic advertising. Certainly when there are events like Canada's Fitweek and so on, we are directly involved in those. We are also involved in the airing of 13 half-hour family Fit Parade programs on MTN in conjunction with Manitoba Blue Cross, Manitoba Milk Producers' and Pace Setter Sports. Mr.

Lamoureux: The Fitness Directorate is to reach out to all Manitobans. I can appreciate the effort going in through MTN, but I am curious as to the rest of the public that might not be watching MTN, and how the provincial government tries to reach out to those individuals. Do they enter into conversations or negotiations, for example, with their federal counterparts to get what they belie ve is a priority to stress the importance of fitnesses, whether it is walking along The Forks or whatever it might be? Is there anything else that is done to ensure that all Manitobans are receiving that very imp ortant message?

Mr.Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairman, certainly we collaborate with the federal government, meet with them on occasion and so on. In terms of their generic, their general advertising, we really are not directly involved in that. I mean we are at the table in terms of discussing fitness in Canada, but there are several very specific initiatives that affect all Manitobans that we are involved with: Canada's Fitweek, and participating of 600 commu nity groups from throughout the province; the Rural Fitness Leadership Development Program that has 553 fitness leaders involved.

Canada's Fitweek, in 19 91 , actually had 500 events with 134,000 participants from throughout the province and 202 communities, so certainly it is something that is province-wide. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, you know we heard a lot of discussion in debate about fitness awareness for our younger peoples which is very important, but another major concern is, of course, the adults in the communities.

One of the concerns that I have is trying to get the 25 and older, if you will, participating in more events, whether they are a quick walk, a jog, sports, whatever it might be, like the Chairperson himself quite often does. Has the directorate looked at anything or any new initiatives that would target that 25-and-up age category? Mr. Stefanson: Yes, we have , Mr. Deputy Chairman, and that is exactly the age group, the 25 to 44. The Fit- 4-Fun program is being developed and, I mentioned it earlier, will be announced and

July 15, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4618 put in place this fall, and it is targeted particularly at that 25-and-u p, 25 to 44, age group. Mr. Lamoureux: That is a positive thing to hear, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. The other question I have is in regard to the community clubs themselves. Is there anything that the directorate does for the local community clubs? You go to any community club and there is always a core group or a core number of volunteers who are so very essential for every comm unity.

Is there anything that the directorate does in terms of advising, making presentations, sitting in on some of these community club meetings or at least offering their services to the community clubs currently? Mr. Stefanson: We interact with community clubs upon request directly. We are not interacting with each and every community club. We do interact with the City of Winnipeg and utilize their Leisure program and their Leisure Guide, and we interact with the various regional organizations representing central Manitoba, Norman and Westman and so on.

So there is certainly the vehicle and the opportunity, and those commu nity clubs have access and availability to our resource material, participate in some of the specific events, whether it be Canada's Fitweek or other events the department undertakes, but we do not interact with each and every community club directly. Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radlsson): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, 1- Mr. Deputy Chairman: Order, please. Could you bring your mike forward if you do not mind so- Ms.

Cerllll: When we left off the other day, I was just starting off in addressing the whole issue of fitness programming development in the province, and I was making the comment that a directorate with a staff of two people that has a mandate for the entire province has got a pretty hefty task ahead of it.

I know that there are some wonderful programs being offered and there has been a lot of success, but I guess what I was getting at is that there is a lot more to be done and there is a lot more that could be done, particularly from a health perspective as we are trying to, I think, move from a sickness medical model of health towards a wellness model of health which would encourage and emphasize prevention. I see that there is a huge role for fitness and fitness professionals to play in that.

I would like to see more of them employed in government, and I think all of the wonderful things that are going on could be done more and could be expanded particularly in the rural areas. • (1 550) One of the things I wanted to ask related to that is, how does the Fitness Directorate relate to the Department of Health? What is going on out there? Who is doing it to try to get this emphasis on wellness as opposed to the medical sickness model? So I am referring to any kind of co-operation betwe en fitness profe ssionals and medi cal services. We heard that there are programs being offered with seniors.

I am wondering if there is anything being done with seniors homes. I am not asking just what are the staff with the directorate doing, but I am sure that they would have an understand ing of what is going on in the communities throughout the province in this area. Mr. Stefanson: I am just going back to the honourable member for Radisson's comment about the staff numbers and the concern with that. I think certainly an important part of the department's role is the building of partnerships and the interaction with communit y groups and commu nity organizations.

Clearly, there is a tremendous resource and vehicle there for our department to utilize in terms of awareness of fitness benefits, involvement and so on. I am not suggesting that at some point there might not be a need for additional staff support but clearly, probably one of the best things the department could do is building these partnerships and getting the people who are actually in the communities, in the organizations and so on, directly involved in fitness, fitness awareness, fitness programs, and so on.

In terms of the interaction with the health, we do interact with the regional health co-ordinators and the regional health divisions, again, in terms of specific events, of resource material, of building on fitness encouragement and awareness through those individuals who are right in the field in terms of the delivery of the health programs. So they are a resource for our Directorate to utilize. Ms.

Cerllll: The idea that we have two people who are to liaise and co-operate and to co-ordinate with communi ty clubs, seniors homes, Parks and Recreation, YMCAs, schools- being realistic, there could, I think, be a lot more done. You said in response to the memb er for lnk ster's (Mr. Lamoureux) question, that there is interaction bet ween com munity clubs and the Fitness

4619 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 15, 19 91 Directorate. Can you be mor e specific? What kinds of interaction? What other than providing resource material is happening in terms of say one group, commu nity clubs? Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Deputy Chairman, in terms of the com mu nity clubs, as I ind icated to the honourable member for lnkster, our link is more through the municipal recreation directorate in terms of the leadership training and involvement in terms of the fitness programs and fitness awareness, that they are our link to the actual community clubs.

Now in terms of the resource material that is available, that is available to all community clubs and becomes a working tool and guide for them at the community club level. So that is our link to commu nity clubs. Ms. Cerllll: So back to the point I was raising earlier about who in the communities is addressing the issue of working towards wellness models, working towards integrating fitness as a prescription, rather than drugs, when we are dealing with particularly stress-related illnesses.

So we are starting to look at lifestyle, and I think that there is a lot of education that could go on with the medical professionals. I am wondering who in the community is addressing that need. Mr. Stefanson: I think, as we discussed when we started the Estimates process under the Fitness Dir ectorate, it ultimately co mes down to a co-operative effort. It is not any one single department's sole responsi

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-2-85a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 2nd hansardpdf 85a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	c54fb9a26b152f0eeac5d28a6a4bdf6a60f0e597

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).