Manitoba Hansard — 5 July 1994 (Sitting 61, 35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-61

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker Vol. XLIU No. 61 • 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, JulyS, 1994 JSSN OS42·S492

NAME ASHTON, Steve BARRE'IT, Becky �STAJRS,S ruuon CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMIN GS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRJEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Trm, Hon. EVANS,Clif EVANS, Leonard S. Fll...MON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and PoUtical AftlUation CONS1ITUENCY Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley GAUDRY, Neil GD.LESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis St. Boniface Minnedosa c�scentwood Gimli HELWER, Edward R. IDCKES, George KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHI.JN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH. Gord MALOWAY,Trm MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCORMICK, Norma McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH. Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darre n, Hon.

REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry STEP ANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Point Douglas The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Morris Burrow s Sturgeon Creek Osborne Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Rossmere Kirkfield Parle: FlinFlon LaV�ndcye Fort Garry Swan River PARTY.

NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal Liberal NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC Liberal PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP

4510 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, July 5, 1994 The Hou se met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS RO�EPROCEEDINGS PRESE�G PETnnONS Canada Post-Unsolicited Mail Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of M. V andale, T. Tomasz, J. Hamilton and others requesting the Legislative Ass embly to request the federal minis ter responsible for Canada Post to consider bringing in legislation requiring all unsolicited mail and flyers use recycled materials. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABUNG OF REPORTS Renewing Education-New Directions Bon.

Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table for the House a document called Renewing Education: New Directions, A Blue print for Action. Mr. Speaker, I also have a ministerial statement. It gives me great pleasure to rise in the House today to present the gove rnment's plan for educational renewal, and it is entitled Renewing Education: New Directions, A Blue print for Action. It presents the framework for change for the renewal of our education system. Building a secure future for our children and our province requires a solid education.

We need to do everything possible to ensure that our children are prepared to be successful in today's competitive world. Kindergarten through senior years is the most crucial time for skill development The education received at this level is fundamental to each st udent 's abi lity to prosper bot h at the post -seco ndary level and in the work force. Government must take the lead in renewal. Our focus will be on literacy since it is the foundation of everything that an individu al requires to become a lifelong Ieame r.

Ensuring all students can read, write, think and compute at a high level is the goal of the educational renewal process. To make this happen, we will promote greater and more effective decision making at the grassroots of education, the schools and their communities. New Directions is a framework for action set out in six priority areas. They are esse ntial learning, standards and evaluation, school effectiveness, parental -community invo lve ment, distance education and technology, teacher training. Together, parents and communities play a vital role in education.

Parents, as a child's first teacher, establish the foundation for lifelong learning in their child ren. Many parents and community members want to be more involve d in shared decision making about educational programming and other school matters. •

(1335) Actions are required to enable parents to have a more significant role as educational partners and to create ways for all parents to become involved in their children's schools and schooling. Therefore, we will require schools to establish advisory councils for school leadership co mprised of parents and community members as requested by those same parents. We will require schools to include advisory councils for school leadership in developing school plans and divisional school budgets.

We will enable parental choice, within limits, in selecting the public school best suited to their child's learning requirements in order to increase flexibility of parental choice within the public school system. We will state fundamental rights and expectations of parents related to their indivi dual children. We will define basic or essential education and outline the core subject

4511 LEGISLA1TVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1994 areas that will be mandatory along with those sub jects that will be compulsory, kinder garten to Senior 4. When choices are being offered by the school, the local community will be involved. Within all sub jects, the required fo undati on skill areas will be literacy and communication, problem solving, human relations, techn ology. We will also enhance educational s tandards and evaluation to e nsure that all students in Manitoba can read, write , think and compute at a high level.

Standards of student achie vement will be developed in relation to what students need to know and be able to do at the end of Grade 3, Grade 6, Senior 1, Senior 4. We will move in a direction which sees effective le arnin g environments established uniformly and consistently in early, middle and senior schools throu ghout Mani toba. To do so requires us to acknowledge that schools are the most important organizational unit in the education system. Princi pals play a key role in all effective schools . Schools must be respo nsible and accountable to parents , the comm unity and the ministry .

Consequently, we will designate principals as the primary instructional leaders in schools and state their fundamental responsibilities and roles . We will require schools to develop and communicate yearly school plans. We will state the fu ndamenta l responsibility and roles of teachers, school boanls and the minister , and we will initiate sc hool reviews when necessary . Technology is rapidly changing our world. Advances in techn ology and the many ways it is used occur at a continuing, escalating pace.

To remain compet itive in the global economy, Mani tobans must be aware not only of how to use e xistin g technology, but must also learn how to use technology in new ways, to solve old and new problems and create new opportuniti es. To shape and co-o rdina te this, we will proceed with technology and distan ce education pro jects which provide prof essio nal develo pment opportunities for teachers . We will establish a provincial adv isory council on distan ce education and techno logy.

Teach ers, including principals , have a pivotal role in ensuring that students receive education and trainin g that provides them with the knowledge and skills req uired to partici pate in and contribute to a vigo rous and prosperous society. As a result of their direct contact with students, tea chers have the greatest impact on the teaching and learning that a student experiences in the cl assroo m and in the school. It is crucial, theref ore, that tea chers and principals be provided with the tools required to deliver releva nt educational pro grams to Mani toba students.

It is also critical that the tools teachers and principals acquire remain relev ant and current as education progresses . With these factors in mind, teacher certific ation in the province of Manitoba will be reviewed and reformed. This document outlines new directions, priorities and initial acti ons. In the fa ll, we will build upon these important be ginnin gs by defining specific time frames, policy changes, regula tory amendments and other implementation detail s.

Much of this change will be driven by the actions of our communities and by our collective willin gness to continually innovate and improve the education system for the benefit of all Mani tobans. It would be more prudent to make changes in an integrated, p lanned app roach over several years, so that all our citizens know that by the tum of the century, our education system will truly be the best in the world I invite all partners in education to wolk with me to renew education in the province of Mani toba. Together we can meet our obligation to present and future generations of Mani tobans.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. •

(1340) Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I would like to thank the minis ter for tabling his statement in the Chamber today. He has ce rtainl y used a lot of the right words in the d ocum ent, but our criticism is the fact that over the last six and a half years, they have not perf ormed any of the deeds nece ssary to get our education into the 21s t Century. We see these words, Mr. Speaker, as words to get this government past the next election, not to

July 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4512 get Manitobans into the next century in tenns of getting our kids ready. The gove rnment bas made three prom ises in education. They have promised to keep the funding level of education at the inflation rate . They have broken that promise. They have prom ised to provide grassroots democracy and autonomy to school boards and school divisiom. They have broken that promise.

They have promised in 1988 to revise the education acts of Manitoba, and they have not fulfilled that prom ise, so when we see a statement today in the HoWle, we will evaluate the gov ernment 's perf ormance on its deeds , certainly not on its words . Mr. Speaker, provinces across Canada are far ahead of this govermn ent in terms of real action at the education area.

Ontario bas just produced an action plan to deal with violence in schools, something we see wanting from this docum ent British Columbia produced three years ago a strategy to deal with protocol dealing with kids who are involved in the law and involved in social services and involved in the education system, again, nothing we see from this government in teiDlS of a real action plan. Certai nly, we see a total vision of curri culum available in other provinces , detailed curri culum strate gies to take the provinces into the next century. We do not see that in this docum ent. We see mo re consultations.

We see more deliberations . We see more studies. We see more good intents. We see good words , but no dee ds. The words about parents we certainly supp ort. We have been calling on this government to involve parents for the last six and a half ye ars. The govermnent's words ring hollow to us when they rolled back all the righ ts of the democratically elected school boards and made only one school division with the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and rolled back the autonomy of the grassroo ts.

They have no credibility because they have done nothing for grassroo ts, and they have done nothing to involve parents for six and a half years, as we have called fo r. Mr. Speaker, we believe that education and our schools are so important for our kids and our future. It is the first place that many kids can have the opportunity-their family is the first place and their school system is the second area of contact where kids can get the opportunities in life that are so important-the training, the skills , the absolute input to move forward and be successful . Kids need a healthy school system.

They need a saf e school system. There is a serious problem in our schools in terms of safety in our schools which is not addressed by this document. They need structure. They need basics. They nee d benchm arks, but they also need a curri culum that is articulated and a curriculum that will take our children into the 21st Cen tury, a curri culum in a changing world that provides a broad level of skills and a broad level of services to take our children into the next century. We also need to invest in our teachers.

You cannot on the one band expect teachers to go ahead and forward with new curri culum changes and on the other band decimate the curriculum program s. Just like distance education, they decimated the Distance Education branch and then they talk about advisory committees today on distance education. The words ring hollow to the actions of the government and the three ministers who have held that portfolio over the last six and a half years. Mr.

Speaker, we believe that there is something fundamentally wrong in our society when kids cannot get physical education and drama and music because there have been cutbacks in funding in our education system, the same week we put a cheque out for $5.3 million to the Wmnipe g Jets hockey team. How do we justify the morality of decisions that are being made by this govermnent of cutbacks in one area and operating blank cheques in another area? That is not an education vision. That is not a fai r vision for the future. Mr. Speaker, this government has bad three priorities in education.

One bas been to reverse the grass roots democracy of school boards which they have done through legislation. Two, they have had the vision of moving toward a two-tiered education

4513 LEGISLA11VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1994 system where certain kids who have financial abilities get better ed uca tion and better opportunities than other children. The third criterion or priority this government has had is that education is a cost. Mr. Speaker, we believe the public education system is not a cost. We believe it is an essential investment and we believe that we have to really provide an action plan, a real action plan to invest in our kids so they are able to meet the chall enges of the 21s t Century . This government has failed to do that and we believe our kids deserve much better. Thank you very much. •

(1345) Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we, of course, are going to read more thoroughly as time will pennit the blueprint that has been tabled for the first time here today by the Minister of Education (Mr. Manness), so I do not intend to purport to be able to go through it line by line and indicate what is positive and what is negative . From the minister's early comments introducing th is, I must say, and as the Leader of the Oppo sition has already indicated, certain thrusts of this blueprint look very positive indeed and long, long overdue .

The reaching out to the parents and the community members in new and inn ovative ways in a spirit of partnership, trying to build a community effort to better serve our students and their parents in our school system , is long overdue. Around this country, increasingly jurisdictions are moving to involve parents in new and different wa ys and the responses are good. It is an approp riate way to move and it is something that our caucus has been outspoken on for a long time, including placing before this House various resolutions and bills to that eff ect. Mr.

Speaker, what is interesting about this is that it ha s been six and a half years since this government took office, and what is interesting, if you look at the minist er's comments, he talks about specifi cally that all citizens will know that by the turn of the century our education system will truly be the best in the world. Coincidentally , that is about six years from now and this government has been in for six and a half years. Had they started with any idea what to do about education in this province , we would have that education system now.

Inste ad, in their two terms in government , what they have done is everything possible to erode and undercut quality public education in this pro vince. The result today is that on the road, apparently , to Damascus they have had a con version and they are going to come up with a blueprint for action, they say. Where has the action been to invest in our children? Why, for six years, has this government seen and portrayed education as a social cost rather than an investment?

That is the way they have portrayed it and their actions-and this is laced with that word "action." Wel l, their actions in the last six years have spoken louder than the words today can get rid of. Those actions have meant that more and more people are losing faith in our public education system and moving toward independent schools. That is the wrong way to go. Mr. Speaker, I was particularly interested to see that this talks about working together in partnerships . Where has that spirit been in the last six and a half years?

Why has this government and this minister, in his short tenure in this position, done nothing but draw lines between the people in our commun ity who have an investment in education, draw lines between teachers, trustees, government, parents and their children? The appro ach of this gov emm ent has been one of division, and it has been an adversa rial one. Today, they are reaping the results of that attitude which is that we have a divided community.

Surely, today we know more than probably at any time in our history as a province that the key to successful government is not just understanding that we need to change but managing change, and you cannot manage change when you divide people. •

(1350) That is what the government has done for six and a half years. Now they talk. Now they talk , when they will not have to implement this in the next-they are talking about, in the fall we will come fo rward with time frames; in the fall we will

July 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4514 come fo rward with these things. Maybe we will have a good education system by the tum of the century. Well, Mr. Speaker, that is not good enough. In conclusion, we will , as I have said, study each and every recommend ation that is put fo rward in this blueprint What I look for from this minister to do and, believe me, because of the last six and a half years it is certainly not too late fo r him to tum the page and peihaps-perbap �t is what he is saying in this ministerial state ment.

We will look fo rward to him turning and building bridges, but it is going to take not just a change in policy but a change in atti tude. Thank you. ••• Bon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table, on behalf of the Manitoba Round Table on the Environment and Economy , the "What You Told Us" document on energy. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bm 225-The PubUc Schools Amendment Act

(2) Mr. Jack Penner (Emerso n): Mr. Speaker, I was wondering whether you would petition the House for unanimous consent to introduce Bill 225, The Public Schools Amendment Act, at this time , a private members' bill. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House to allow the honourable member for Emerson to introduce Bill 225, a private members' bill, at this time? Point of Order Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Second Opposition House Leade r): On a point of order, it was brought to our atte ntion last night that the member was wanting to introduce a bill.

I think it should be noted that we are doing it on leave for first reading so that we can at least hear where the government, partic ularl y the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Manness ), is coming from on this particular bill, because it is somew hat, pot ential ly, a ver y controversial piece of legislation. ••• Mr. Speaker: Order, please . I am simply asking a question now. Is there leave to allow the honourable member for Emerson to introduce Bill 225 for first reading? Leave? [agreed] Mr. Penne r: Mr. Speaker, this bill- Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable member, kindly move your bill first , sir, and then you will have an opportunity to tell us the pwport of the bill. Mr. Penner : I move, seconded by the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurende au) , (by leave) that Bi ll 225, The Public Sc hools Amendment Act (2) (Loi no 2 modifiant Ia

Loi sur les �les publiques), be now introduced for first reading and read a first time. Motion presented. •

(1355) Mr. Penner: Mr. Speaker, my comments will not be very long. I have been asked continually by people all across this province why it is necessary for parents to petition ann ually school divisions to allow for religious exe rcises and/or prayer to be held in schools, and the ann ual requirement is what the concern has bee n.

This bill will negate the provision for ann ual petition requirements and include in the bill a provision that will allow the parents to sign a petition and/or sign a document indicating that their child would be allowed to, or not allowed to, participate in religious exercise and/or prayer in school . Some of us happen to think that no matter what religious deno minations we are from or what part of society we are from, children should have the same rights as adults do in public participation in either re ligious exerc ises and/or prayer, specifically prayer in school.

Whether we as a society congregate and say prayers of thanks , and we do as a society, or whether we ask for guidan ce, as we do in this Chamber virtually daily, it is our right as human beings and as a society to jointly do that. This bill simply would indicate that the parents have the

4515 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1994 right to indicate when their children enter school to allow them to do this over a period of time. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker : Prior to Oral Questions , may I direct the att ention of honourable members to the Speak er's Gallery , where we have with us this afternoon His Excellency Noboru Nakahi ra, the Ambass ador of Japan to Canada. On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome yo u here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Education System Violence Prevention Programs Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Premier. After six and a half years and three Ministers of Education, we have a document here today. We have noted the three promises the govemment has broken in terms of education over the last six and a half ye ars. Mr. Speaker, a concern we have had that we feel is neglected in the statement from the govemment is the whole issue of violence in our schoo lrooms and the whole issue of safety of our students and teachers in the classroom.

It is certainly an issue that has developed more and more with the parents we are listening to, with the teache rs we are listening to, the trustees and students. Obviously, the funding reductions have pu t greater pre ssure on the teacher-pupil ratio. Incident reports indicate an increase of some 43 percent in the number of weapons -related suspensions in the W'mnipe g School Division, and 47 percent of the teachers in the Manitoba Teachers' Society report increased physi cal abuse situations in the cl assroom in the '92-93 school year.

I would ask the Premier, why is there no specific action plan on dealing with a saf e schoo l environment , which is certainly a priority of the parents whom we are listening to across Manitoba? • (1 400) Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, the issue of youth violence and violence in the schools is one that obviously is of great concern to all of us. I point out to the Leader of the Opp osition that he throws in gratuitous comments and remarks indiscrimin ately, such as all uding to the fact that this has something to do with the pupil-teacher ratio.

The pupil-teacher ratio in Manitoba is one of the lowest, if not the lowest in the entire country- An Honourable Member : It used to be. Mr. Film on: Is, is, is. So he has no solutions. He just has a lot of problems that he throws o n the table . Our Minister of Justi ce (Mrs. Vodrey) got together people from a wide cross

section of the com munity , teachers, parents, students themselves, people from Couections, counselling people , all sorts of people thro ughout the community , Justice people , to work on solu tiom. They put fo rward solutio ns, many of which are now being implemented. We have always held ourselves open to potential solutions to be brought fo rward. [interjection] Mr. Speaker, we have always put ourselves forward to solutions put forward by those who want to do that, in a positive way, not just in a way of bringing it fo rward for political sake. The Minister of Education (Mr.

Manne ss) has met with the stakeholders consistently over the last six months to listen to their conce rns, their ideas and their proposals on how to solve education. Mr. Speaker, there is a difficulty, and we will be open about it. The difficulty is that there are competing interes ts. I know from having met with the Manit oba Teach ers' Society executive fo ur years in a row that the onl y topic they consistently wanted to talk about was the amount of money that was put into teachers ' salaries-the only topic. They did not want to talk about violence in the schools.

They did not want to talk about all of these educational issues. That is a difficulty we are going to have to come to grips with. That is why this minister is puttin g forth a constructive

July 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4516 propo sal, a proposal that involves all people from the community, to tty and solve probl ems, not tty and make cheap politics out of them , Mr. Speaker. Mr. Doer: I cann ot count how many gratuitous comments were in the Premie r's resp onse, Mr. Speaker. The government has fa iled to deal with the whole issue of violence in the schoolrooms. Talking to teachers, parents, pupils, it is a major concern. To have us now referred to the Minister of Justice (Mrs.

Vodr ey), who was the fo rmer Minister of Education who did nothing on the protocol in Education, you will excuse us if we are asking the Premier for some action and not for words. Mr. Speaker, the government, the former Minister of Education, had a proposal from the school trustees , the school teachers, the principals, the superintendents across Manitoba, calling for an absolute protocol to deal with cross -government co-ordination to deal with problem cbildren in our school system who are also in contact with the health system , the social services system and other syst ems.

The government bas promised us . technical bureaucr atic committees, but has promised no action in the comm uni ty. When can we expect from the Premier, who has had three Ministers of Education, a specific action plan and protocol plan that is in the communities and in the community schoo ls on behalf of our kids in those communities? Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, when we consult with the stakeholders, with the parents, with the various people who have an interest in education, we get criticized because we are not taking action. When we take action, we get criticized by the Leader of the Opposition for not consulting.

We have done both. We have listened, we have consulted, and the minister is putting forth some concrete proposals that will indeed improve the ability of our schools to function and will involve parents in the process to a greater extent than they have ever been involved bef ore . Paren tal Involvement Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): We have been calling for greater parental involve ment in the education system for the last six years. [inte rjection] There are a lot of fo nner Ministers of Education now saying a lot of things across the way, Mr. Speaker, who did nothing when they were in office.

In 1990, the Premier promised-we believe that some degree of local autonomy is important to school boards in dealing with expen ditures of educational fu nds , leaving them to make the decisions locally and make them accountable to the local taxpayers and the local parents . Consultation is critical in ensuring this best education system with the local school boards. Mr.

Speaker, why should we believe the Premier today when he talks about involving grassroots parents when be broke his promise to allow for locally elected people in the school divisions to make the decisions back in the pre-election period in 19907 His word was not good then. Why is it good now? Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, all of the decisions that are the responsibility of local school boards have been made by local school boards .

I will not apologize to the Leader of the Opposi tion or to anyone for having put in place legislation that limited the amount of increase of taxes that they could put on the ratepayers of Manitoba. If be counts that as unw arranted interference, he is out of touch with the people of Manitoba. Home Care Program Drug Policy Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr.

Speaker, throughout the government 's so-called health ref onn, the governme nt has said that patient care would not be impacted negatively by their changes, yet we see line-ups getting longer, patie nts complaining in hospitals, nurses laid off, home care cut back and more cuts coming down the road .

4517 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1994 Can the minister explain-and we have government docum ents that indicate it-why he might be placing home care clients in jeopardy by invoking a new policy whereby home care attendants now administer drugs to patients , rather than nurse s who used to administer the drugs? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, over the last number of months, there have been significant developments in the whole area of home care and also in the whole area of the responsibilities and roles of members of the nursing profession in which we take great pl easure.

I am sure that the 18 ,000 or so recipients of home care in Manitoba will be pleased to know that they have an independent arbiter when it comes to disagree ments between themselves and the program with regard to levels of care, with regard to the kind of care they receive. I know from talking with representatives of the Manitoba Assoc iation of Registered Nurses that the announcement made by the Premier (Mr. Filmon) at the nurses' convention with respect to nurse-managed care is something they look forward to developing with us under the leade rship of Dr. Helen Glass and her commi ttee.

So we have made significant steps forward, I suggest, in the area of home care and in the area of changes, improvements in opportunities, for members of the nursing professi on. Mr. Cbomiak: Mr. Speaker, does one get the impress ion the minister is avoiding the answ er? Can the minister explain why the change in policy , why they are tinkering with home care again? We know what happens when this government tinkers with home care. Why are they changing home care? This policy is frankly ill egal, Mr.

Speaker, and I will table the medical services act which indicates this policy of having home care attendants administer drugs is illegal. Why are they doing this? Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, it is a pretty important allegation the honourable member makes. I will be certain to follow up and ensure, if something illegal is happening, that it be stopped, and if it is not ille gal, that the honourable member withdraw his comments in that regard. I make no apology also for putting the patient first.

I wish the honourable member would explain himself once in a while when he puts his clearly defined, vested interest ahead of the interests of the patients in this province. He is going to have a lot of explaining to do in that regard. In any event, we also have a Home Care Advisory Council, headed by Ms. Paula Keirstead, whose recommendations we look forward to hearing and whose advice we look forward to hearing as they do their worlc, as well .

Again, I think that clients of the Home Care program would be pleased to know that such an advisory council is in existence, and we are inviting them, clients and staff of the program, to make their views known to the advisor y commi ttee. • (1 410) Mr. Cbomiak: Mr. Speaker, the only person first in this governm ent's agenda was Connie Curran , who was first in line to take her $4 million down to the States. My final supplementary , Mr. Spe aker: This policy was put in place before the minister even put in place his advisory committee s.

Can the minister outline whether or not he talked to the College of Physicians and Surgeons, the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses and all the other regulatory bodies before they put this policy in place , which appears to be very contradictory? It is the government's own memo that indicates that they have put this policy in place. Why are they jeo pardizing patien ts ' health without consulting with the regulatory bodies that are supposed to be looking after patients' health, Mr. Speaker? Mr. McCrae: I told the honourable member, Mr.

Spe aker, I would follow up on the one part of his question that actually was a question, and that was about the legality and the appropriateness of a particular procedure . I will follow that up, but when he wants to talk about who comes first, Connie Curran always comes into his questions.

July 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4518 He always forgets to mention Michael Deet er every time he mentions Connie Curran . Do not forget Michael Deeter is the person who sat around the table with the honomable member's colleagues when they were government here in Manitoba. Then he left his $1 40,000- a-year deputy minister position in Ontario to head up all the Connie Curran operations here in Canada. If the honourable member has any questions about Connie Curran, he can ask Michael Dee ter, his friend. Education System Social Programs Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education. I have now had a chance to review briefly the documen t, lea f through it. What was interesting- [interjection] Well , it did not take long. It is not much. It did not take long. My question for the Minister of Education: What has often been said by teachers and trustees-they have told us, and I am sure they have told the minister-is that, increasingly, health programs, social services programs and other social programs which government offers are having to be offered through the schools.

These things are being loaded onto the school system increasingl y, and teachers aild trustees are saying it is taking away from their teaching ability, because they simply do not have the resources to offer all of these programs. That has been a constant theme in the last few years of discussions with those groups.

There is not anything that I can see in this blueprint which speaks to that particular issue, and a real concern of all of those involved in the education system in this province is, what is the role of schools going to be as a community centre for the delivery of those services, and where will the resources come from to deliver those services? What partnerships, what reaching out is the minister going to do to those various departments in his government, to those sectors of our society, as they increasingly become participants in our education system? Bon.

Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, the member may want to pass judgment on the length of the document, but I want to assure him that six painstaking months were put into place with tremendous consultation across the piece to anive at the d ocum ent that was tabled today, in keeping with what the members, of course, have been calling for year after year, and that is, of course , greater consultation.

I am troubled by the lack of state sman ship approach brought foiWard by both Leaders of the opposition, because if anybody does any reading with respect to education ref orm, one of the first commentaries is to stay away from the politics of blame , beca use, of course, the politics of blame, in reality, do not do an awful lot to help the students in the public school system today. I have tried to do that. Mr. Speaker, the focus on the d ocum ent put into place today is litera cy. It is academic achievement. It is being able to comprehend and to read and to write.

The question brought foiWard by the Leader of the Liberal Party is no diffe rent from the question that had been put fOIWard by his party before, the member particularly for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray), who has asked the question over and over again-th e protocols with respect to the departments and how it is we deal with students who are medically complex or those who are overly aggres sive in the class room. Mr. Speaker, as I have suggested many times, that protocol with respect to departmental review of this subject is in place . I have seen a near-to- final draft on my desk as of last week.

Again, we are going to try and release that this summer. That is the same answer to the same question that I have given over and over, over the course of the last two months. Parental Choice of Schools Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposi tion): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of

4519 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1994 Education says he and his department have put six hard months into this. He will pardon us if we do not have a lot of sympathy. Maybe they should have put six hard years into this, which they have had and did not do.

My second supplementary question for the minister-and I will look forward to that report is specific to his Action No. 9, which is in the document and indicates that parents will have increased ability to enable parental choice, within limits, in selecting the public school best suited to their child's learning requirements in order to increase flexibility of parental choice . Can he be a little more specific on that? Is he talking about across-school-division boundaries? What happens to transportation costs in that regard? What impact is Mr.

Norrie's commission likely to have or potentially going to have on that type of an action plan? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, before I answer the question, I fe el compelled to acknowledge an awful lot of work that has been done by my predecessors in this government, who, through task force and indeed consultations, have gone throughout the education community to bring forward an awful lot of information that, again, is reflected in

part in this document Furthermore, specific to the question, the member wants to ask about the question of greater flexibil ity. We anticipate that, in some settings, there will be a reduction in the munber of school divisions and that there will be larger districts and divisions , but within that, we sense that students and their parents should have greater access to choice, but, Mr. Speaker, that does not mean free choice.

That means , in some cases, that if there is some additional cost, particularly associated with transportation, there may be some incumbency upon the parent to recognize part of that coSL That is what we are talking about Choice cannot always be free. Distance Education Advisory Council Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, one of the chapters in this,

Chapter 5, is Distance Education and Techno logy. We had a very thorough report done by an advisory committee which was released last Dece mber, in December of 1993. This report, in its Action No. 14, calls for the establishment of a provincial advisory council on Distance Education and Technol ogy. Mr. Speaker, it strikes me, without obviously having details, that we have had that committee, and they produced a report which was, in effect, a blueprint and set out key goals and time frames for distance education in this province. Why are we doing this again?

What is going to be the new role of this new advisory council? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, the member is not even part right. On this, there was a task force that was in place that brought forward recomm endations . One of the rec omm endations was that this advisory group be put into place to give recommendation to the government as to how the advent of distance education be brought forward into the future. That was put forward by the task force purely within the field of education.

What we have had happen over the course of the last two years is an incredible add-on with respect to other gove rnment services and indeed nongovernment services that all want to share the information highway. So we are trying to integrate this whole process through various ministries, but still within today's world, the advisory council with respect to education will certainly be put into place to focus purely on education. Domestic Violence Court Backlog Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns) : Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey).

Delays in the justice system in dealing with charges of domestic violence , which are almost

July 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4520 always against women, are of serious concern to Man itobans . On May 27, the Minister of Justice advised the House that the backlogs in the Domestic Violence Court were four and a half months, all in light of an objective of this government of a three-month backlog in that court. At the next sitting, the very next sitting on May 30, the minister said that they were actually eight and a half months. That is a difference of four months.

Now, yesterday, in an affidavit filed in the Court of Queen 's Bench executed by Judge Giesbrecht of the Provincial Court, there is evidence, ref erencing a transcript from the court, showing that a ma n charged with domestic assault, September 25, 1993, will not face trial until September 21, 1994, a delay of one year, Mr. Speaker, almost to the day. My question to the mini ster is, who are Manitobans to believe as to the serio usnes s of the backlog, a judge under oath or this minister'l •

(1420) Bon. Darren Prazoik (Minister of Labour) : Mr. Speaker, given that the member has ref erenced a matter, a parti cular case which the judg es' association is now pursuing before the courts with respect to Bill 22 and given that the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey), in her role as Attorney General, is not appropriate to be dealing with that matter, I will be responding to this particular issue, because it does fall in the realm of public sector compensation. Mr. Speaker, clearly, what we have going on with the provi ncial judges in Manitoba is very much a dispute with mo ney.

I say to the honourable member- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Point of Order Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, my question was as to the backlogs in the Provincial Court, not about judg es, not about their compensation. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member does not have a point of older. ••• Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, clear ly, backlogs, whatever their length of time in the court, are reflective of a labour relations issue that is now going on with provincial judges, and I think the statistics of court use supp ort that. Youth Court Backlogs Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns) : My question is to the Minister ofJustice (Mrs.

Vodrey). Given that the Minister of Justice has argued in this House that the backlog in the Youth Court is just five months, and given that I brought into this Cham ber an example of a nine-month backlog even with no trial, and given that Judge Giesbrecht swears in her affidavit that there is a one-year backlog in that Youth Court, who are Manitobans to believe? Bon. Darren Prazoik (Minister of Labour) : Mr.

Speaker, I would refere nce the honourable member to yesterday 's Free Press, where one Judge Ron Me yers in a particular speech indicated very clearly that because of their basic salary dispute with the provincial government, with this Legislative Assembly, they have, in fact, slowed down or are not going the extra mile to make sure that wodc is done. I would just indicate to the hono urable member that the number ofhoms that courts were sitting in Maich of 1994 ranged from 0.6 of an hour per day to a high of 3.6 hours in a day, and in April from 0.9 to 4.4 hours per day. Oearl y- Mr. Speaker: Older, please.

Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader) : Mr. Speaker, we are seeing a rather bizarre distortion of the rules when a minister-a minister is entitled not to answer a question, but it is rather unusual for another minister to get up and not only not answer the question but to deal with other matt ers. The member asked a very specific question on court delays. I would point out that perlla ps the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) might care to

4521 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1994 read Bea uc hesne in terms of the sub judice convention, which indicates that it does not strictly apply in terms of civil cases, and not only that, Beauchesne Citation 51 0, which indicates: "The Speaker has pointed out 'that the House has never allowed the sub judice convention to stand in the way of its consideration of a matter vital to the public interest or to the effective operation of the House '." I would submit to you, Mr.

Speaker, that it is quite in order for our member to be asking about court delays, and it is incumbent upon the Minister of Justice to pro vide answers in the public interest. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised, the honourable member does not have a point of order. Be auchesne Citation 420: "The Speaker has stated, 'Of course, the Chair will allow a question to be put to a certain Minister; but it cannot insist that that Minister rather than another should answer it' " ••• Mr. Mackintosh: It is fascinating to see how this government deals with its gross mismanagement of the court system, Mr. Speaker.

Provincial Court Vacancies Mr. Gonl Mackintosh (St. Johns) : Mr. Speaker, given that, unf ortunately, there are seven new judge vacanci es on the court brought by this government as of last Friday and in light of the backlogs, my question to the minister is this: When did this government, now near the end of its mandate , plan to re fresh the bench?- the min ister's words. When does the patronage really begin? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General ): Mr.

Speaker, as I have ans wered in this House previously, there were three vacancies and, as the members know, I have reported in this House bef ore, there are judicial nomina ting committees which are already operating to deal with those three vacanc ies. When I receive inf ormation from the chief judge reg arding where the needs will be for other members of the judiciary to be app oin ted, to have the judicial nomina ting committees appoi nted, this government will be acting. Youth Care Workers Training Program Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows) : Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Family Services will know that Manitoba is one of only two pro vinces in Canada that does not have a youth care worker training program in spite of the fact that the community has requested one . Red River Community College rated it No. 2 in their priorities for new programs, but it was not app roved.

Given that there is an increasing need for this professional training for youth care workers, can the Minister of Family Services tell us why this program was not ap proved, and what her government is going to do to see that it is app roved for this coming year, or next year at the very least? Bon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I have to say that I thoroughly en joyed the last 10 months with my responsibility as Minister of Family Services.

There has to be an understanding that it takes a littl e while to get up to speed on the issues in the department We have had a three -month session. It is really nice to know that the sessi on is coming to a close, so that we can look very proactively into the future and look at all of the issues that need to be dis cusse d, the issues that need to be reviewed and decisions that need to be made. So I look forward to the time between the sessions, when we can look at the issues surro unding youth workers and see what the future might hold. Mr. Martindale : Mr.

Speaker, that is a very dis app ointing answer, given that one of the senior officials in her department endorsed such a program. Group Bomes Closure Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows) : Two youth group homes have been closed in recent months. Two more are going to be closed.

July 5, 1994 LEGISLAnvE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4522 Can the minister tell us where these youth are supp osed to go? How can she rationalize a system that bas fe wer spaces, instead of more spaces, to deal with troubled youths in our society? Bon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Famlly Services): Well , Mr. Speaker, I have indicated many times in this House what our vision is for children and for families in the province of Manitoba. That is a vision that looks at family support, fam ily preservation and family responsibility .

We have put in place within the Department of Family Services, in this year's budget, a special family support fund of $2.5 milli on that will look towards keeping families together. I know there is an issue with those who are presently within the system that we are going to have to deal with, but what we want to do is focus on the future of the children and the families in Manitoba and try to make Manitoba a better place in which to live, reduce the number of children that have to be taken into care by providi ng the suppo rts right within the family for the children's sake .

Prime Motor Oils Environmental Clean up Ms. Marianne CeriD i (Radisso n): Mr. Speaker, the people of Manitoba, especially the people of no rtheast Winn ipe g, have had enough of hazardous waste management by Solvit and Prime Oil. I have photographs with me that show that the Lexington and Paris site bas standing water and oil and unprotected hazardous waste in banels, and an insecure area which allows access, where young people are known to be going into the site. Mr.

Speaker, this area or site for Prime Oil bas had a work order mentioning it since Decembe r 1991, and I would like to ask the Minister of Environment, given that he said on May 24, '94, that: "The whole area is being evaluated quite carefully to make sure we do not inadvertently overlook something", I would like to ask the minister, why was this Prime Oil site at Lexington and Paris Streets not included in the work order thatl mentioned in 1991, which required a cleanup of all Prime Oil sites ? Bo n. Glen Cum mings (Minister of Environmen t): Mr.

Speaker, if the member would care to share her infonnation with me, I could get her a more detailed answer. •

(1430) Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Speaker, this minister said that he was going to get tough on this issue in May, and we are still gett ing phone calls ask ing, for the neighbours of the site , when is it going to be cleaned up. Why, I ask the minister, bas this site not been cleaned up, as the minister bas been saying since 19911 Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, a very extensive classifi cation of the material and site was done to make sure that it was categorized and removed app ropriately and not mixed in a way that would create additional problems to those we already had.

Unl ess the member bas new inf onnation that I am unaware of, evaluation of the original Prime Oil site bas indicated that while we have a cleanup situation on our hands, we do not have an immediate and emergent problem. 1be contracts-we have been seeking to have the material cleaned up and have an estimate on the cost of cleanup of the land, and that will be followed through approp riately. Ms. Cerilli : Mr. Speaker, the issue is, why is this minister not aware of this contaminated site in northeast Wmn ipeg, when it is mentioned in the work order that was issued in 1991?

What is going on in this Department of Environment, and why- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member bas put her question. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, the member bas been known to bring inf onnation to this House before that was incorrect, when she reported a spill at Pine Falls that never occurred. Mr. Speaker, I will do my best to ascertain the validity of her con Cerns, and we will deal with them. New Directions Report Implementation Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education.

4523 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1994 If you take a look on page 34 of the blueprint on education changes, it states that changes will be incremental over the next six years . Implementation of some actions will be taken immediately. My question to the Minister of Education is, can the minister indicate to us today what actions the government plans on taking immediately, in particular for this coming September, the beginning of the school year! Bon.

Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): We will be beginning work on curriculum issues immediately , starting with the development of the curriculum framewoik K to Senior 4. Upon completion of the framework, woik will begin in the K to 12 curriculum areas, core sub jects , and essential curriculum learnings will now be new or revised and will be based on the framewoik. Woik will begin immediately to develop the Grade 3 diagnostic test, with a target for implementation for the '96-97 school year.

Wodt will begin immediately to provide schools and parents with information about the establishment of advisory councils for school leadership. A handbook will be available this fall. We will target it for release in October. We are woiking with a western consortia of provinces in the development of a common math and language arts curriculum, and we will be doing a spec ial review of special education programs starting in September of this year. Mr. Speaker, there are another three or four items. 1be member may wish me to provide them in a subsequent answ er. Student Consultations Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster) : Mr. Speaker, I am wondering if the minister can indicate to the House, because there are going to be some changes coming up for the September school year, what consultation there will be between now and then in terms of what the government 's plans are, because the minister, in previous questions that I have asked him with respect to students and input for the students , had indicated that the students would be able to have input after the blueprint was tabled.

I am interested in knowing if the Minister of Education has anything that is going to be happening between now and September in terms of meeting with his partners and the students of the province. Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training) : Mr. Speaker, this is the dilemma a government has , and, of course, opposition can have it both ways. Just a half an hour ago, they were screaming at us because we were consulting too much and not acting. Now they want to go back to consult. 1be reality is, we did take into account some of the preliminary findings as a result of the student survey .

That is why we have delayed, basically for the last week and a half, releasing the report. 1be member wants to know exactly , and I can tell him specific ally the emphasis. Students have called for a greater emphasis on English and language arts , more so than the members opposite . They did not even draw it forwaid in questions today, Mr. Speaker. Academics and literacy never came forwaid today in questions , but with the stu dents, it is a big issue, and the whole reform docum ent is based on that fact. Hiring Policy Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster) : Mr.

Spe aker, on page 22, it recommends in terms of the yearly school plan parental and community involvement, including involvement in hiring and assigning teachers , developing the school plan and the school budget. Is the government suggesting that local school advisory groups will be responsible for the hiring and the discipline and firing of schoolteacbe iS? Is there, in fact, some sort of a check? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training) : There can only be one employer.

There can only be one employing authority, and that will remain the school division, yet the guidelines that will be in place will call upon the local parent-community advisory group to have

July 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4524 some strong influence on those decisions at the board lev el. Winnipeg Airport Upgrading Costs . Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona) : Mr. Speaker, the Winn ipeg International Airport activity creates some 9,000 direct and indirect jobs and contributes over $430 million a year to the provincial GOP. 1be fe deral govemment is negotiating with local business inte rests to tum the airport operation management over to a local airport authority under a 60-plus-year lease arran gement.

Some other Canadian aiiports have been transferred, including Vancouver, which now charges passengers a departure fee of between $5 and $15. My question is for the Minister of Highways and Transportation. Since nearly 50 percent of all Wmnipeg airport aircraft movements are cargo-related, has the Minister of Highways and Transportati on raised the issue of fairer portioning of the local Airport Authority improvement costs , so that the travelling public will not be responsible for 100 percent of the future capital and operational costs of the local Airport Authority? Bon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation) : Mr. Speaker, the member full well knows tbat we discussed this in the Estimates process . He knows the answer. The Winnipeg Airport Authority has been put in place. It is an interim committee that is dealing with the issue. The fe deral government has put the whole process on hold, even though Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver and Montreal have aiJport authorities and are competing with us and are beating us right now.

If the federal Liberal govemment get on their way and get the new airport authorities in place with whatever new guidelines they want to have in place, get on with it, the Airport Authority can get on with the question the member is talking about. Mr. Reid: Mr.

Speaker, since there are over two million passengers a year and thousands of airline industry employees utilizing the Winnipeg International Airport, has the Minister of Highways and Tran sportation raised with the federal gover nment the fa ilure to include consumer and employee representatives on the local Airport Authority board during and after negotiations for transfer of the airport? They are not curre ntly included on that board. Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the member knows that I am leaving this evening or tomorrow morning to meet with the fe deral minister and other provincial colleagues.

Oearly, this issue will be on the table for discussion. Mr. Re id: Mr. Speaker, I am glad it will be discussed. Winnipeg Airport Authority Transfer Agree ment Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona) : Since taxpayers have already paid for the airport ope rations, will the Minister of Highways and Transportation ask the fe deral Minister of Transport, when they meet this week, to release the complete details of any transfer agree ment of the Wmnipeg International Airport to the business interests? Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation) : Mr.

Spe aker, the Airport Authority had a public meeting app roximately a month or six weeks ago, where they dis cussed with the community items of interest to the co mmunity. That will be an ongoing process if the Airport Authority is appro ved in the future. I think it will be very important to expanding the economic activity, both cargo and traveller activ ity, through the airport in Wmn ipeg if that Airport Authority can get underway.

I hope that the fe deral gov emm ent will see the light and create the oppo rtunity for the leaders of the comm unity in Winnipeg to have their airport be very competitive in the opportunities of the future. Port of Churdilll Governm ent Commitment Mr. Eric Robinson (Ruperts land) : Mr. Speaker, my questions are also for the Minister of Transportation. Repeatedly, we have raised questions during the se ssion concerning the western grain transportation system and also the Port of

4525 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1994 Churchill. As of this morning, again, there is no grain committed to the Port of Cllurchill, making it appear that Cllurchill may get even less grain this year than the levels in the past four years. I would like to ask the minister or the Premier (Mr. Filmon) whether or not either one has contacted the Canadian Wheat Board. H so, what commitment have they received from the Wheat Boanl so far this ye ar! Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation) : Mr.

Speaker, our inf onn ation at this time is about 190, 000 tonnes of grain has been committed through Churchill to South Africa. We also hear there are rumours of other potential sales. We certainly hope that they materialize, so that we can have 400, 000 or 500, 000 or 600,000 tonnes of grain moving through Cllurch ill. We certainly have written the federal Minister of Agriculture saying that the Manitoba Liberals had co mmitted a million tonnes to go through the Port of Church ill, and we expect them to be able to achieve that ob jective. Thompson Airport Governm ent Commitment Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson) : Mr.

Speaker, the fe deral government 's policies on transport are causing major conc erns, not only in terms of Church ill, but in terms of airports. In fact, the Minister of Transport fe derally is talking about a scorched-earth policy in terms of transportation, and it can affect Man itoba, including, in particular, the Thompson airport, which right now is on the chopping block when it comes to the air traffic control tower. I would like to ask the minister, as I have done previously on this, and perhaps ask the Premier (Mr.

Filmon), as well, if the provi ncial government will take a strong stand against the devastation that woul d be wrought by the federal Liberal government 's policies in terms of transportation. Will they take a strong action to defend the Thompson airport, the Port of Churchill and the many other vital transportation services in Manitoba? Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation) : Mr.

Sp eaker, I can certainly assure the member for Thompson that we do take a very strong position and try to defend the interests of Manitoba on all the various issues the federal Liberal government are undertaking that will negatively impact us. I want to assure the member we have written the fe deral Minister of Transport saying that for the good of safety and for economic development in Thompson, there is strong support for maintaining that tower. I do not know what the fe deral decision will be. The Minister of Labour (Mr. Pramik) has also written the federal Minister of Transport on the same initiative .

We are very disappointed. because we are not getting answ en to any of the letten we have sent to the federal government I have sent some 15 since I have got into this portfo lio. I have only got answen to four. As we well know , we sent a fairly strong letter on the 9th of June, and they have not even acknowledged it yet. So if that is the way they consult with the prov inces, that is not a very good way to govern, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker : Time for Oral Que stions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Bon. Jim Ernst (Governm ent House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, in discussi on amongst House leaden, we have agreed to go into Committee of Supply to continue to consider the concurrence motion in Committee of Supply . So I would move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majest y with the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair. • (1 440)

July 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4526 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY Supply-Capital Supply Madam Chairperson (Louise Dacquay): Order, ple ase. Will the Committee of Supp ly please come to order. The Committee of Supply has been considering the fo llowing resolution: That the Committee of Supply concur in all Supply resolutions relating to the Estimates of Expenditure for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1995, which have been adopted at this session by the two sections of the Committee of Supply sitting separately and by the full commit tee. Mrs.

Sharon Carstairs (River Heights): Madam Chairperson, I have a question that I would like to ask of the Minister of Highways (Mr. Findlay). I have over the last few weeks had a number of letters from constituents with respect to the underp ass on Kenaston. Some of them have been in favour; some of them have been opposed. What has been consistent through letters, however, was their desire for some kind of process that they could indicate cle arly, that they could have their input into this final and ultimate decision of this construction.

Will the Minister of Highways outline fo r us this afternoon exactly what stages of public involvement will be required in the final decisions to build the underp ass? Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Tnnsportation) : Madam Clair, the membe r puts me at some kind of a disadvantage to ask me to answer that question because it is really an Urban Affairs issue. The Minister of Urban Affairs (Mrs. Mcintosh) deals with the city on any matters related to the prov incial government and stree ts and bridges inside the Perimeter.

The Minister of Highways deals with those roads that, as the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) knows we have had that discussion in Estimates, are outside the Peri meter primarily. Yes, on occ asion we get . involved in cost sharing with the city on specific items like that portion through St. Norbert and the bridge over the La Salle and the four Ianing of the Broo kside portion close to the Perimeter. That is the role the Minister of Highways plays . But it is an infrastructure decision involving the three levels of government: city, province, and fede ral government.

The relationship in terms of what to do and how to do it between the province and the city rests in the Ministry of Urban Affairs. So it does not help the member, but that is the jurisdiction of responsibilities we have in this government. Mrs. Carstairs: Madam Chairperson, it is very clear that substantial amounts of provincial money are going into this pro ject. In add ition, during the Highways Estimates the minister indicated that his department was consulted and would be consulted when infrastru cture pro jects specifically deal with roads and that type of proj ect, which this certainly is.

Now, the Department of Highways itself does have a series of protocols. It has public meetings, it ensures that there is an environmental impact assessment if one is warrante d. W ill those kinds of controls still be put into place in this particular pro ject? Mr. Findlay: Madam Chair, I cannot answer much diffe rently, other than to expand a little bit to the member. Yes, we were involved in some technical aspects, but the city en gineers ultimately are responsible in this situation, and I cannot say specifically who or to what extent we were involved in any consultation process with the city en ginee rs.

It would only be in a secondary position with them . With regard to environmental process, again you would have to ask the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst) or the City of Wmnipe g. We have a process with our roads that are under our jurisdiction. Yes, where an environmental license is needed we obtain it. There are several steps along the way to make a decision to get to the construction phase. I am sorry , although it might sound like a cop-out it is outside my responsibility and jurisdiction.

We are only called in on some basic technical as pect, and in terms of whether-the member wanted to ask whether I think a pro ject is important to the overall transportation sector for Manitoba-! would have to say fo cussing on getting traffic to and from the airport and to our trucking tenninals and to our int ennodal centres is very important in a transportation sense. Now how

4527 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1994 that is done , that is a broad question, involves a lot of players . Mrs. Carstairs: We ll, this is exactly the concern that many of the people writing to me have , that the Department of Highways is not going to do its normal processes that they would do in a provincial highwa y setting, that the City of Wmni peg does not have the same sorts of rules and regulations guaranteeing that there will be the pub lic mee tings and the environmental assessment , nor does the fe deral government, because it is monies that are going to be used in the Oty of Wmn ipeg .

So the concern is that the whole public participation is going to fall through the cracks, that no level is going to conduct it. Can I ask the Minister of Highways if he will take it upon himself to meet with the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mrs . Mcintosh) and the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummin gs) and if so possib le, lay before the Oty ofW mnipeg their concerm that public processes be put into place to guarantee that there is public participation. Mr. Findlay: Madam Chair, again, I just want to remind the member we are not dealing in a provincial highway here, so we cann ot institute our processes on them .

I will follow up what the member suggested, that between Urban Affairs and Environment and Highways we should look at the issue. It is probably fair to say that there might be something falling through the cracks here, and we will discuss it and look at how the p rocess will be handled from here on. Mr. Clif Evans (Inter lake): Madam Chair, leading off with the Minister of Highways, I would just like to ref er back to Estimates what was discussed during Estimates with regard to Riverton Boat Works. I have read through Hansard and also had an opportuni ty to meet with the proponents, with Mr.

Thorsteinson and his family, with regard to the Hans ard and the documentation. Mr. Thorsteinson has indicated that he would certainly app reciate meeting with the previous minister. He also asked me to pass on his comments to the previous Minister of Highways who did what he could to assist Mr. Thorsteinson, and they are very , very grateful for tha t. However, this is an issue that has been longstanding. The previous minister who is well aware of it, and my colleague who I thank for bringing this matter up to the now-Minister of Highways (Mr. Findlay ), Mr.

Thorsteinson would in fact like to dis cuss the different possibilities, and after reading Hansard , that there may be. We do want to get the fe deral people to the table and that has been the difficulty. The minister may not be aware of the fact that the fe deral member of Parliament for Portage-I nterlake has also been made aware of this. Riverton Boat Works has not received the answ ers that they are looking for from his office.

Whether the minister is aware of that, whether there has been an y correspondence from the member of Parliament for Portage-I nterlake or not, I would certainly hope there might have bee n; if not, I do have some correspondence that I would like to share with the minister. The now-member of Parli ament, Dr. Ge rrard, had indicated thr oughout the pre-election days that they were going to resolve this matter once and for all and bring it to light.

I would like us to worlc together on this with the minister, and I think that a meeting between the Minister of Highways and myself and the Riverton Boat Works and a member of Parliament that if we can get together and somehow look to resolve this whole matter and bring everybody to the table , put the questions and the answ ers together about how we can do it, I think it has been too long standing of an issue, people 's lives have been altered because of this issue.

I certainly fe el that support from this minister and perhaps getting with the member of Parliament to e nlighten him even more as to what can be done, I would appre ciate comments from the minister. • (14 50) Mr. Findlay: Madam Chair, I became aware of this issue through the Estimates pro cess, and certainly the fo rmer minister, Mr. Driedger, was involved in terms of discussion and ongoing proce ss here . What I have learned is that it is certainly a very difficult situation for Mr. Thorsteinson.

I am sure the member opposite is fully aware that the province is not involved in any direct way in this circumstance. Mr. Thorsteinson

July 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4528 bad a direct contract with Public Works Canada, in other words, with the federal governm ent, and he has made certain allegations , comments, and I am sure they are true or very close to true , that design specifications were not what they should have bee n. He in curred certain expenses, and when he tried to get reimbursed from the federal government, the dispute started to arise . AB time went on, it would appear that Public Works Canada either stopped talking or never did talk to Mr.

Thorsteinson in any constructive way about trying to resolve the circumst ances that he was in with the contract that he bad for building a tug. The situation, as I know it right now, is that Mr. Thorsteinson has launched legal action against the fe deral government. But the member for the Interlake (Mr. C. Evans) is saying he would like to still talk to the federal government, and, yes, I am sure that Mr. Gerrard made all kinds of promises during the election period. Now all of a sudden he is elected, and what is he doing to follow up on his promises to have it resolved? [interjection] Yes, zero.

I am not aware that Mr. Gerrard has responded to us as a department directly in any sense, and it is difficult for us to get involved if the fe deral government will not come to the table because they are the people that have the issue with Mr. Thorsteinson and Riverton Boat Works . I am prepared to worlc: with the member opposite to see if we can do something to bring the federal government to the tab le. I do not know what all the truth and facts are here . I certainly know that Mr.

Thorsteinson has been severely hurt financially because of this process, and I think it goes all the way back to 1987, if I am not mistaken, 1985. So we are talking close to 10 years now, and there has been an outstanding issue of monies that have been held back by the federal government as a result of the contract and the dispute , which is, I am sure, serious business for Mr. 'Iborsteinson.

So the department has, I can assure the member, tried in all its ways and means to achieve some discussion between the two parties, but the federal government, to my knowledge , at this point, have consistently and continu ally refused to discuss the issue at all, and whether Mr. Gerrard will become active and try to bring the two parties together, I cannot comment for him. I can only say that we will continue to do what we can from my office to get Mr.

Gerrard to take some leadership with his government to resolve the issue for his constituent, but, you know , I fe el almost helpless, basical ly, in the circumstance , and I am sure the MLA for Interlake (Mr. C. Evans) also fe els somewhat helpless. We have got a fe deral government that has dug their heels in versus a constituent who fee ls very frustrated in the process. Mr. C6f Evans: Thank you for those comments , Mr. Minister.

I would in closing on that topic, the minister is leaving tonight or tomorrow with respect to the ministers ' meeting in Calgary, the opportu nity, hopefully, may arise there to speak with the fe deral minister there on this topic. It would be greatly appre ciated if the minister, knowing of course the

schedule and the timetable that he has, could mention it and if he could agree, and I would be more than willing to do as much of the mediating between this minister, between Dr. Gera rd and Mr. Thorsteinson, into getting together, at least as a start, with the four parties to see exactly what kind of a direction we can take. I will contact the minister after he has returned from Calgary to see if he bad any luck with the federal min ister. I will also contact him to discuss perhaps-! will try and reach Dr. Gerrard and see if we cann ot get together in a common place here or wherever and discuss this with Mr.

Thorstei nson. If the matter could be resolved, not only Riverton Boat Works , but the family itself could get back up on their fe et. They are turning contracts down now. They are still being sought after to do worlc:, and they cann ot do anything because of this situation. AB far as the legal action goes , and we discussed it on Saturday, they are willing to negotiate that They are willing to negotiate as far as putting it away as long as they have some ass urances, put it off to the side until we get some assuran ces and then we can discuss it, and if nothing comes out of it, then go from there again.

4529 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1994 I would like to very quickly go over some of the roads and maintenanre- Mr . Findlay: Madam Olair, the member has me at a great disadvantage. My material is back in the office, and he is going to ask some very technical questions. I thought I was on in a half an hour, and I was headed out to get it. If he would like to ask questions elsewhere for two minutes while I go get the inf onnation-[inte Jjection] The Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger) is here to bail me out, so I will go get my material and I will be right back. Mr.

Clif Evans : Madam Chairperson, I would like to ask the Minister of Natural Resourc es, while I have the opportunity, a few questions. I would like to actually begin with the LGD of Annstrong. They have written to the minister and have sent a resolution requesting, resolved that council request the Minister of Natural Resources to detennine a route for a controlled outlet for Dennis Lake . I realize that we had met with the minister a couple or three weeks ago-I app reciate that-on peliukan bass drains in Nedey Creek.

In previous dis cussi ons with the previous Minister of Natural Resources, we had discussed an outlet for Dennis Lake . I think where council is wanting to move on this is to determine, with the govemm ent's help, where best an outlet fo r Dennis Lake could be achieved through the co- operation of water resources and the Natural Resources department and council. The other issues and the other drainage issues in the LGD of Annstrong, of course , are important and are still important.

The minister, in his discussions with the reeve, had indicated just which way they are going with this, and council is satisfied with that. The latest resolution, and it was somet hing that was brought up again to the previous Minister of Natural Resources-with a positive response, I may say . Now the question is, when all of this is going to get done and well and fixed, Dennis Lake outlet is still going to create a prob lem. Has the minister discussed this part of the request with his department at all, and will he? Hon.

Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources) : Madam Chairperson, nonnally when the member for Interlake asks a question, I usu ally say no first off, and then I will come back and get around to discussing it. He makes reference to the LGD of Annstrong and the problems that they have bad, and be is correct that we met in my office a while ago. Concerns wer e brought forward. There are portions of the Interlake where the drainage system leaves a lot to be desired, and a particular case with the LGD of Annstrong and Dennis Lake-a lot of history in many of these cases as well.

I had indicated at that time to the LGD council that I personally did not fe el receptive to taking the Dennis Lake flow and putting it into the Netley Cree k. The Nedey Creek itself, Madam Chaitperson, is a problem by itself. We are looking at a long-range capital program to start on the Netley Creek drainage system. In fact, I am waiting with staff, but we have not had time yet to develop the longer-t enn capital program in terms of how well staged some of these-I went through with staff the other day. We have approxi mately 20 of these pro jects that are sort of into the mix , half done.

Wasbow Bay area is another one. We have the Dennis Lake issue; we have the Netley Creek issue . We have a series of them thro ughout the province . Councils in many cases are rightfully getting frustrated because there is not enough capital money to take and, maybe, not even to do one total project because some of them are pretty expensive, so we try and do a little bit here and a little bit there. As a result , I am not satisfied with that approach necessarily. I think councils are entitled to at least know what the general picture is. •

(1500) Having said that, I want to say that my personal preference is, in the Dennis Lake particular case, to take that water straight east and tie it into our drain system going east tow ards the lake instead of going into the Nedey Creek process . I will not arbitrarily just make that decision. I think when I met with the reeve and council, I

July 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4530 suggested we look at these options . I am prepared to define these options more specifically with the LGD of Armstrong, together with Water Resources, logistically looking at the thing from my perspective as a layman, unless my Water Resources people convince me diff erently . They have the same sort of fee ling that I have, that we should take the Dennis Lake water east to the provincial drainage system. We have enough other systems that flow into the Netley Creek run, and those are the ones that basically affect the LGD of Annstrong as well.

I personally prefer to have this split. I am waiting for Water Resources to come fo rward with more specific recommendations, and I will not do that just arbitrarily. We will take and meet with the LGD of Annstrong again once we have a little bit more specific inf ormation , and we will respond to them directly by letter and carbon copy the member. Mr.

ClifE vans: Madam Chair, I want to thank the minister for that because about two and a half, three weeks ago I did go out with the reeve and some of the constituents who live in that area and who have lived there for ever and ever as they say, and that was discussed between council-some of the councillors were there and a fe w of the constituents and the reeve and myself, and we went over that whole area.

What I am hearing in the minister's idea is pretty well close to being the same as what they. are saying , and I think if the minister's staff and council or the reeve could get together on that, but also bring in the constituents whose ideas basically are the ones that we are throwing about with the LGD to bring to the attention of the minister. I would certainly want to see that. Mr.

Driedger: Madam Chai rperson, I want to give assurance to the member as well as to the LGD of Armstrong that, as this session winds down and we have a little bit more flexibility in terms of our time , you know the ministers from their offices, that it would be my intention to go out first-hand and have a look at the situation. It is always easy to have resolutions on the desk and have people expressing wishes; I find very often that by going out and looking first- hand you have a much better feel for it.

I want to assure the member that I will be out in that area dming the course of the next fe w months and do a first-hand look at it. I will not do it quietly. I will let the LGD of Armstrong know, and we can talk about it. There will be action and a course of action develo ped, and I will let them know what it is. Mr. Clif Evans: I just want to offer the invitation to the minister that if he is going to be coming out to look at the drainage systems in the Interl ake , I offer him the invitation of stopping in and visiting with me, and pedlaps I can show him a fe w other dandy drains that we have in the Interlake.

The invitation is always open to the minister. An Honourable Member: Give him a tour. Mr. ClifE vans: I will be glad to give him a tour. There is no doubt about it. On another ma tter, this is on fishing. The minister received a letter June 22, or the letter was sent June 22 to the minister's office from a Henry Traverse. It is with regard to a director 's authorization permit. Can the minister enlighten me on these permits? Can he indicate just what has to be done by app licants to receive such a licence? Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, the member has me a little at a disadvant age.

I wonder if he could clarify the licence. He made ref erence to it the other day. I have been trying to fo llow up the corre spondence in my office, which was faxed and not fax ed. I did not have a copy of it yet, so if he could clatify this a little further , I am prepared to answer. Mr. ClifE vans: Madam Chaiipers on, I will read the letter for the minister. It is from Henry Trave rse. He is president of Goodman Landing Fisheries.

His request is: your assis tance in obtaining the permit decl ared above for the purpose of selling fish directly to the Gim1i Fish Madcet For your inf ormation , the fo ur of us fa mily members hold quotas on Lake Winnipeg, and currently there are no liens on any of our existing equipment that are provided by loans through CEDF.

4531 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1994 Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, the member is asking for my assistance; apparent ly, the individual is as well. I believe the individual probably knows that the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation is the one that issues licences to allow the sale of that. My department cannot do tha t, because that is under the jurisdiction of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Co1p0ration and licences of that nature have been issued.

If there is any further difficulty with it, they should apply to FFMC; and, if there is difficulty, they can get in touch with my office, and we will pursue it further. Licences of this nature have been issued. However, I have to say the member should possibly maybe check with FFMC himself. There is a lot of history with the Freshwater Fish MaJketing Corporation in terms of the marketing schemes, the rough fish, the whole issue itself. In fact, I just sent a letter to the fe deral Minister responsible for Fisheries and Oceans today.

I just want to tell the member that I wrote a letter to the fe deral minister because we have a bit of a convoluted system in terms of authority for the administration of our fisheries. It is under fe deral jurisdiction, and for us to implement any changes at all, we have to app ly to the federal government, the fe deral minister. It goes thro ugh the system there. It has sometimes taken up to a year before we have a decision.

In this particular case with the licence , if the member wishes to advise them, app ly directly to the marketing board; and, if there are further difficulties , they can get back in touch with me or my deputy. Mr. Clif Evans : Madam Olaiipe rson, in closing with this minister on that, I discussed this with Mr. Traverse yesterday. He had indicated to me that he discussed it with the director of Fisheries and nothing of that was made mention. So, when I discuss this with my constituent, I will certainly mention what you have said and indicate what you have said, and we will go to Freshwater and find out.

If I could get back to the Minister of Highways (Mr. Findla y), I might throw a little bit of a curve to the minister on this one. Some years ago, my honourable colleague the critic for Highways and myself had the terrific opportunity of going up to Steep Rock at the request of some constituents out there with respect to the turning lane and the curve approaching 329 to Steep Rock. Now I am not sure whether this minister-or his department has made him aware of the request-is aware of the correspondence or not, but it is the junction of 239 and Highway 6.

Previous to the turnoff, there are some danger ous S' s-curves-and, of course , with the development in Steep Rock, a wonderful development in that area, the traffic is increasing. My family and I have the opp ortunity of going there now. We have been going up there for the last couple of years. I travel that road a lot, of course, and I find it very, very dangerous and treacherous. If the minister can enlighten me as to what his department might do on this or if the minister will get back to me on this one, I would appre ciate one way or the other, or if he wants to ask further, ask me any questions .

An Honourable Member: First and fore most, how is the fishing? Mr. Clif Evans: The fishing is absolutely excellent. Mr. Findlay: Madam Chairpers on, did the member say 329 and Highway 67 An Honourable Member: 239. Mr. Findlay: Madam Chairperson, 239 and Highway6. The member, I understand, is ref erring to the junction where you make a left turn or a turn to the west of Highway 6 onto 239. An Honourable Member: Towanls Steep Rock. Mr. Findlay: Towanls Steep Rock, yes. I would have to get back to the member.

It could be in the program, but I would prefer to talk to st aff about where it is at before I comment to him. • (15 10) Mr. Clif Evans : Madam Chair, I did want to put it on the agenda for the ministe r's staff. It was on another piece of paper and I was not able to discuss it with his staff, but I definitely would appreciate an answ er on that. This is since 1990-91 that the

July 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4532 req uest has been in, and it could be very, very dang erous. I do have some questions. I have been bringing up some of the highways in my are a to this government, to the previous Minister of Highways. I have done it through letter. I have · done it through discussing it with him in private. I have done it through questions. I have done it through Estim ates, and really not to the satisfaction of, of course , the constituents and myself . I would just like to question the minister on some of these and where it is it.

I would like to begin with Highway 234 from Highway 8 to Pine Dock. When the previous minister receive d the portf olio of Minister of Highways in the changes in the fall, I had indicated to the Matheson Island community and to the Pine Dock community and the community of Riverton that one of the ways that we should deal with this issue is to write to the minister requesting a meeting to get suppor t from the diffe rent communities that are involved. Those letters and the petitions and whatnot were sent to me, and I brought them to the minist er's office directly.

I believe this would have been in early, early fall. Madam Chair, I just want to enlighten the . minister on 234. It is a road that was upgraded to Beaver Creek, widened and upgraded and left at that, but now the traffic on that road has increased so much over the years. The winter road service is used by that road. The peo ple come from Bloodvein, from Island Lake, from Berens River. They use that road in the wintertime . The transfer company uses that road throughout the year. The communities are growing. They are using that conti nuously through the year.

There is a proposal in place that an entrepreneur is looking at building a fishing resort in the Pine Dock area. It is going to increase the traffic even more with tourism and that. Over the past three to fo ur years the community has requested and requested to discuss this wi th the minister. I understand that the response, after the minister received the letter and the petitions and whatnot, he had indicated to my office, I believe, and to the communities that there was going to be a meeting with a certain engineer.

In checking with his department I was led to believe or told that there were some personal problems within that, which is fine. This is going back some months now . Again, I received calls, the minister 's office received calls just in the last three days about the treacherous condition of 234 right today and last week. The strange part about it was I received some calls on Thursday, I called his office to express the wishes of the constituents, and as I get home they are pulling a truck, a three-quarter ton truck right up to the top, right up to the cab in mud, that they had to pull out of 234.

They had to go out and get it, because that is how much it was stuck. I know the minister hopefully has some answer fo r me right now on it. Mr. Findlay: Madam Clair, I know the member has a lot of highways that he is concerned about. We are doing some work on some of them . The LGD of FISher, we have certainly been meeting with them, and I think we have an agreement that is going to flow there. The one he is talking about, 234, I do not have any further comment or any other additional comment .

I think I would like to talk to the member privately so we can get from him his version of where the major proble ms are, because we are talking a fairly long road here. We are probably talking-dare I say?-80 kilometres. It is a long road. I am sure before we are finished here today he is going to ask about probably another 80 or 100 kilometres of road. There may be justifiable reasons fo r raising all these roads.

I will give him some answers where I have infoim ation, but on this one I would prefer to talk to him privately about the conditions of the road to see if it jibes with the inf onnation I have received through the department so that we can appo rtion our scarce resources in a fashion that meets the greatest nee ds. Any MLA that comes to me on the roads , give me the road or the two roads that are the highest priority , the ones that must be done , because we cannot do four or five. There just are not enough reso urces to go around. I would ask the member on this one-he is saying that the traffic count is way up.

We always collect traffic counts every year. I will check

4533 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1994 today . I do not have the numbers in front of me. I will check to detennine whether those highway traffic counts have really gone up in reality or whether we have taken them in the wrong place . I would like the mem ber's input on that so that we can detennine where we would do some work if some work is not already being scheduled on 234. I know he has som e more and we will have to determine where the greatest prior ities are for those ones that are not curre ntly on a program. Mr.

Clif Evaos: Madam Chair, I will do that with the minister, but there were indications from the minist er's office th at there was going to be a meeting with an engineer-! do not have his name in front of me-to discuss it with the communities and myself, if so be it. Basically, what they are saying also is that the continued maintenance of the road is very important. They are not asking for asphalting from Highway 8 to Pine Dock. They are looking for some improvement on the road, up to some provincial standaids , so this is basically it.

I will be glad to get together with the minister, but I would appreciate the minister following up with his staff as t o who was supposed to be meeting. The administrator of the Pine Dock community just told me last Thursday, she bas not beard a word from anybody for months. The minister says that I have a lot of roads in my constituency and that is true. I have been asking on these roads since the very first Estimates process that we were able to do after the election in 1990. I am always asking and I will continue to ask the status or the proposals for these different roads .

I would like to come back to the Minister of Highways. I know some of my colleagues have questions. I have a meeting with some constituents and the Minis ter of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey) and the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings) in a few minutes , so I would just like to ask the minister just how far the proposal on 325, the new portion that bas been proposed from Highway 17 west, where is that at and how soon can we see progression on that new road? Mr. Findlay : Madam Chair, I pr esume the member is talkin g about the proposed new extension of 325 straight easterly to Highway 17.

We met with the co-op in the area who is talking about putting a new location at the junction of325 and 233. We have talked to him about the extension of the road and it would be about-it would look to me like about 10 miles from the existing 325 all the way east to 17. I understand in the community there was some concern that we were not going to go all the way, we would just rebuild about three miles worth, but the commitment of the de partment is to build all the way through from the bend in 325 straight through to Highway 17.

That is the process the department is on in terms of getting the environmental licence and then proceeding to land acquisition. So the process to rebuild that road-and I believe it meets the desire of the community to do that-certainly the co-op wanted the first three miles built to their new location. Now if he is talking about a different section, you let me know. •

(1520) Mr. Clif Evans: Madam Chairperson, I am talking about the propos al not from 233 and a couple of miles that the co-op and other proponents are talking about, because 325 west of 233 is another matter altogether and is an issue that the R.M. of Siglunes and LGD of Grabamdale are looking at. We are talking about the proposal that bas been to the minister previous and now. The min ister's staff bas been discussing this with Mr. Ernest Abas and Mr. Mel Ross about from Highway 17 west, connecting it to 325 there, a straight new road being built directly through. Mr. Findlay: That is what I am talking about. Mr.

ClifEvaos: Yes, but you are talking about the other side , coming the other way. Mr. Findlay: Madam Cllairpe rson, he is talking from 17 east. I am talking from the west side going to the same location. We are talking exactly the same portion of road. If the member had a map in front of him , he would see there is a jog in 325 straight north of Sleeve Lake , and from that point all the way to Highway 17 which I think be is talking about, we are committed. We are in a process of trying to obt ain an environmental licence , and then if we obtain the environmental

July 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4534 licence , you move to land acquisition on that new road. An Honourable Member: . . . thought that was done already. Mr. Findlay: No, I am telling the member that is the process we are in at this time, acquiring environmental licence, which should not be too diffi cult 1ben we get into land acquisition for the new road. It is a road that curre ntly does not exist . I am sure we are talking about the same stretch. Ms. Norma McCormick (Osborne) : I have some questions for the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger) .

I would like to fol low up where we left off on the Land Inf ormation Centre in the Estimates pr ocess. I want to get some specific inf ormation on Remote Sensing and the Land Inform ation Systems outlined in the app ropriation. I am interested in finding out what is the dupli cation, overlap or co-operati on between the worlc of the Linnet Graphics group and the people who are cunently in the department doing what ap pear to be some related activities. Can the minister advise me, what is the relati onship of these activities within the department to that which is conducted by Linnet Graphics? Mr.

Driedger: Madam Chailpers on, I will try and do a little bit of background history here for the member. 1be net concept was developed I tbink -and the reason I have a rec all about basically bow this thing evolved was because we did an opening yestelday in the town of Steinbach of a geographical inform ation centre , a very positive thing, but the concept with Linnet was deve loped, oh, I think in the '70s. In 1986, this concept was actually developed a little further in terms of establishing a geographical information system.

Other provinces have tried it at various levels and it bas not been successful. 1bey have fai led. Since '86, this thing bas evolved to some de gree where ultimately there was an agreement that was arri ved at between Linnet and the provincial government. The provincial government is a 24-percent shareholder in the Linnet operati ons. We have input in terms of bow it is run, and there is some funding that is indirectly involved through the departments.

It used to be basically under I, T and T, the Information Services component with Linne t, and during the last budgetary process, the decision was made that it woul d be transf erred to the Department of Natural Reso urces . Since that bas happened, we think-and this is not patting the department on the back, but we have been very positive in making progress in terms of where we are going with the whole inform ation sy stem to the point where the individual from the Crown Lands Branch, my director, Jack Schreuder, is the one that is basically co-ordinating the inf ormation system .

By and large , why the decision of government was to move it into Natural Resources was because of the Crown land component and my department who basically have a lot of this geog raphical inf ormation. So since that time it bas evolved in my view very positively. We have a specific direction. We are trying to get other departments . We have a committee set up of deputies that basically are worlcing at getting all the various departments to sort of be a player in this.

There bas always been a certain sensitivity in the debate over the period of time in this House about the inf ormation that basically with Linnet is going to be public information, does anybody have access to it, and that. That is a thing that bas been dealt with because the information can be put into the system and it is still the control of the department No inform ation will be released until the department fee ls it is proper to release it.

This was a concern as we went into that system all the time, and departments are very possessive of their inf ormation, but basically the concept from my lay man's point of view in terms of what is happening with the geographical inf ormation system is that- I will just try and give an example . We have Manitoba Telephone, we have Manitoba Hydro, we have the Department of Highways, the Department of Natural Resources, Energy and Mine s. Each department has accumulated their own information base, you know , geographic inf ormation, et cetera.

Actually it seem s as if it is duplication and the inf ormation is not available for those that need it and that is why I, like I say again,

4535 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1994 from a laym an' s point of view feel ver y enthusiastic about the approach of what we are doing with Linnet and this inf ormation system because it is now p ut into a general system . The departments still have control over it, but at least it can be accessed by municipalitie s, by governments , by indiv iduals, that inf ormation which is available to the general public. I am just trying to give a little bit of background because when I first got into the department and I was handed the responsibility of Linnet or the inf ormation services , I was in a jungle .

I did not know what I was starting with, but I fe el much more comfortable now. We have very qualified people by the name of -the Director of Crown Lands, like I mentioned Jack Schreuder, and Alvin Suderman who has also been very busy with developing the inf ormation system. So when we did the opening yesterday in Steinbach, in the environmental off ice , everybody was very enthusiastic. The agricultural component which also ties into this system has been opened up in Carman.

We are looking at establishing a few of these inf ormation systems in the Department of Natural Resources, so the system is moving fo rwanl and the positive side is that, by and large , Linne t is out there matketing it to the general public. We have sold the inform ation system to Saskatchewan. We have Alberta and Quebec on-line that want to buy into our system and buy the technology. It is being matketed on the international basis, where we have big customers in the Asiatic countries that are basically looking at buying this technology and into the system.

So after what has see med a very, very long slow start, we are at the stage where progress is being made and as more acceptability of all components and departments, in terms of what we are trying to accomplish with it, I fe el pretty good about it . Ms. McCormick: Thank you to the minister for that history lesson, but I am still confused about the relationship between Linnet and, for example, Remote Sensing and Land Inform ation Systems.

These are still a department of the Natural Reso urces department How does Linnet serve the Department of Envir onment, for example, Department of Natural Resources and the utilities you have spoken of! Does government purchase service from Linne t, or bow are those relationships defined? •

(1530) Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, I certainly am not critical of the memb er for raising the question as to the relationship because that was one of the confusing points that I had. With us having 24 percent of the equity into Linne t, and Linne t is basically an arm of another company , it is a complicated structure. By and large the arran gement, we are on the verge of signing another agreement again, another yea r's agreement with Linnet as we do on a yearly basis, where we wodc out a wodcing agreement between government 's Economic Development committee , my department and Linnet.

It is based on providing inf ormation, feeding information into the system and providing certain funding for that. For that funding that goes into it, we get inf ormation and do not have to buy it, but Linnet basically, when they marke t this, we get that percentage of equity that we have . We get some of that money back. The whole purpose initially was to est ablish a good inf ormation system plus a big job creation factor, I think .

I will try and get the specific information as to the number of employees because I do not have my staff here, but ultimately the target is something like 200 people will be employed under the system here in Winni peg. It is supposed to be a very beneficial program and, at the same time, have major economic benefits jo b-wise as well as something that can market and get money back from elsewhe re. Each department is challenged for a component within their budget, I believe , that should tie into the inf ormation system to provide that to the major control system of inf ormation, which basically is Linnet.

I do not know how further to explain the concern as to the agreement unless I basically bring forward the total agreement and that is being wm:ked on right now . Ms. McCormick: In preparing for the questioning in this area I did search through the Corporations

July 5, 1994 LBGISLA'TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4536 branch, so I have a fairly clear understanding about Manitoba as a minority shareholder, about ID. Systems and the other sort of principal shareholders , but what I now thank the minister for having a better sense of is the access of infonn ation that is gathered under the umbrella of Linnet is now available to Manitoba. It is almost a quid pro quo that you put inf onnation in and you get it back in a better fonn. Another area though I am curious about is the direction that the department is then moving.

Is it likely that some of these activities that are currently done under the auspices of the department will eventually move out of government into Linne t, or do you see that we will retain things like the land inf onnation system, the remote sensing, that government will still continue to do some of this, or will it be progressively devolved into the external corporation? Mr. Driedger: Madam Chair, the way I see this evolving is, it is an ongoing thing that will never really stop. The realms of possibility are endless in tenns of what you can feed into the system.

For example , if you take the city of Winnipe g, ultimately the whole infrastructure system , their sewer, their telephone lin es, hydro, everything ultimately can be th ere; and, for example, if somebody wants to develop a business, whatever the case may be , they can go and buy this inform ation, a privat e corporation or a muni cipality, and get all the inf onn ation they need related to ground, to water aquifers. This is what we were stressing yesterday in Steinbach when we did the opening.

Where we have a lot of interest in establishing bog operati ons, the individuals or the municipality can tap into this inf onn ation and find out where the water aquifers are, all the infonn ation on that , the soil types in tenns of developing a storage facili ty, and ultimately this just keeps building. Where it ends, I do not know, but there is tremendous potential in tenns of this thing evolving further . I could see an ongoing role for government to continually be part of that , because we have the inf onnation base that basically is required in a lot of cases . Ms.

McCormick: You talked about a growth of employment within the linnet system . Are there currently provincial civil servants sec onded into Linne t, or is all of the staff year growth to be outside of the Civil Service? Mr. Driedger: Madam Chaitperson, initial ly, there was not secondment, but I think some of the infonn ation people went to work for Linnet and are paid under their structure. At the present time, for our participation in the development of the infonn ation system with the Linne t, my director of Crown Lands is playing a very active part, as well as Mr.

Sud erman, so we have people who are basica lly working with th em . So part of the contribution is in kind in tenns of participating with the company. I am not trying to oversimplify it. It is relatively complex, the kind of agree ment we have , but from the average layman's approach to it, without getting into all the details, I think it is very positive. I repeat again, the potential for this thing as it evolves is just in my mind very positive and limitless in tenns of what can happen there . Ms. McCormick : Madam Ch airpers on, I just want to move on to a question about the Remote Sensing unit.

The ob jective of the unit is: "To provide a Provincial Topographic Inf ormation Program in support of management of provincial natural and related resources and the carrying out of environmental assess men ts." Now, for example , an activity like this, who would do it? Would it be the staff in the Remote Sensing unit who would actually perfonn this activity? Or would there in some way be some link back with linnet for that? Mr. Dried ger: Madam Chairperson, I am not quite sure if I understand the question correctly.

I just want to say that the infonnation from my department, for example, resources in tenns of es pecia lly my Crown Lands people, the geographic inf ormation that we have on file-I mean, it is not like we are starting something new . There is inf onnation that has been developed over a long period of time, and this inf onnation, then, is basically fed in.

4537 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 5, 1994 The system is o nly as good as the information that it gets, and this is where from our department being very supporti ve, we are feeding all the information that we basically have into it and encouraging the other departments to do the same thing so that we have a complete networlc.

I might just say that initially, people like maybe Hydro and Telephone were a little hesitant about whether they wanted to play a role in this, but after the an nouncement yesterday in Steinbach, the people from Hydro were very enthused and fee l that there is a trem endous advantage that can be gained by everybody using the same inf orm ation database. As more feed into this system, and they still have control of it, much of this inform ation, by and large, is for everybody 's use.

I mean, it is not some thing that-why would Hydro not want to share much of the inform ation that they have with Telephone, or vice versa, or with other government departments , when people need inform ation? It is an evolving thing, by and large, but it is getting to be more positive all the time. I do not know whether I have answered the question really in terms of everybody has to give inf ormation into there. My department gives what it can. Other departm ents do the same thing. Ms. McCormick: I think we are getting close r here.

What I was trying to asce rtain by using the remote sensing activity as an example is how the inform ation gathered through Natural Res ource s activity is then fed to Linnet for the benefit of private industry and fo r other governm ent activit y, so I am getting a sense or at least a better sense , that the activity which goes on within the department bec omes part of the broade r inf ormation base that is amassed by the Linnet syst em. So I am prepared to let it go at that. I would just like to ask another couple of questions with respect to the progress of the tender package on the Manitoba Lowlands pro ject.

I am just curious if the minister can advise me of the status of the joint advisory committee and th e selection of the tender for the contract for th e Manitoba Lowlands . •

(1540) Mr. Driedger: Can the member indicate , is this related to the next national park that we are looking at, the options that are there? Madam Chairperson, I want to say to the member that initially there were three proposals that were being sort of conside red.

A committee was set up between the fe deral and provincial gov ernments, and they ul timately reported to the provincial deputy minister of my department and the deputy minister of the fe deral government, who then basically, based on the report that was made, then made recomm endations to myself and to the fe deral minister as to which areas were to be considered When the reference was made to the parlc in the Wil liams Lake area, which is one of the areas for consideration, at that t ime the grou p, as this inf ormation came forward through the system , fe lt that because the W illiams Lake area specifically as part of the Thompson nickel belt that goes right through there-and I want to say that by and large the nickel finds in that p articular area in Will iams Lake , first indications are that is higher of quality than even at Thompson.

So the challenge, I guess, that government of the day faces federally and provincially is where do you basically-to me it is not a competition between environment and the mining industry but people perceive it to be that. That is not the case .

Rather, anticipating the controversy that it could have gotten to be, if we had not excluded a portion of it, not all of it, but that portion which is part of the Thompson nickel belt, that we would exclude that portion of it to avoid the kind of conflict, because first of all, the fe deral government in establishing a national parlc is very sensitive that they do not get into all kinds of big rhubarbs. We are in the process of est ablishing the Churchill Park national park; even that is moving very slowly because of all the things that have to be dealt with.

So it was felt by everybody through the system that we should exclude that portion that has the high nickel quality in it and, at the same time, realizing that within certain areas there we have the bat caves, certain very special areas that we

July 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4538 will be designating under the Endangered Spaces program which, you know, based on my advisers, we can take and isolate those and put them aside. So it is a matter of basically evolution to this point. I get criti cized severely by some of the environmental groups that we have just caved in to the mining industry. That is not the case at all, but I think in the best interest of moving this thing fo rward, I think the course of action that we have taken is justifiable, at least I have a comfort level in tenns of using a common sense approach to it. Ms.

McCormick: It see ms to me, Mr. Minister, this is one area where we have the tremendous potential for using the geogra phic inf ormation system data which is gathered up in tenns of laying out the technical requirements for the selection of a site . My question was intended to elicit information on what is the status of the process for tendering the Manitoba lowlands criteria, and who is in fact in control of that p roces s?

I have a sense now that you are saying it is quite a slow process, but I was just curious about finding out from the minister if in fact that joint advisory committee has a mandate to continue, or is it now a process which is back in the control of the federal and provincial govemm ents? Madam Chairperson: The honourable Minister of Natural Reso urees . Mr. Driedger: Madam Chairperson, I was not trying to play favourites here by talking with Mr. Speaker. Because he is a gentle man that basically calls the shots in this House, when he asks a question I feel compelled to sort of give him a short answ er.

To the member and her question, the next step that basica lly is taking place after the recommen dations came forward, both my provincial department and the fe deral Parks department have put out a tender for consultants. That p roces s has just basically concluded and I am waiting for the recommendation to come fo rward in terms of the consultants that will do the next stage of the studie s, basically. So it is moving fo rward.

I believe because the federal govemment was involved, we had to tender this on an international basis, and I think we even had some consultants appl ying from as far away as Mexico, et cetera, but I just have a preliminary indication that there is a variety of app lications that came forward and a recomm endation will be coming fo rward to me, I expect, within the next 10 days fo r the consultants who will then continue on in tenns of doing what has to be done . Ms. McCormick: That is what I was looking for in tenns of an update of that process.

Now, just one other area, I wanted to question with respect to the status of the agreement between the Department of Natural Resources and the association of private landowners in provincial parks. Can you give me some indication as to the progress of the negotiation of an agreement with respect to these services that these people get? Mr.

Driedger: Madam Chair , the member opens a whole Pandora 's box here with the kind of question, a lot of history that has basically been involved here with the private landowners and provincial parks-this is what we are talking about, right? -because some of these people have been living there for a long, long time before the provincial parks got established. When I took over t

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-61
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 61.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	c55cc40e4d17412c81dac7fece0e7b11d63dbf0b

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