Manitoba Hansard — 9 May 1991 (Sitting 40, 35th Legislature, 2nd Session)

35-2-40

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Second Session - Thirty-Fifth Leglslature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XL No. 40- 1:30 p.m., THURSD AY, MAY 9, 1991 Printed by the Office of the Quee ns Printer. Province of Menltobe ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y Thi rty-Fifth Leglslatur e LIB - Liberal; ND - New Democrat; PC - Progressive Conservative NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARST AIRS, Sharon CERILLI , Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMM INGS, Glen, Hon. DACOUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARM E, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS,Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FIN DLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon.

HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R. HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MclNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon.

ST ORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste. Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charl eswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St.

Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY. LIB ND ND LIB LIB ND LIB ND PC PC PC PC ND ND PC PC PC LIB PC PC ND ND PC PC ND LIB PC ND PC ND LIB ND PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC ND ND

1834 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 9, 1991 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Routine Proceedings, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us today His Excellency Gorand Kapetanovic, who is the Ambassador of Yugoslavia. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

Also with us this afternoon in the Speaker's Galler y, we have ch iefs , cou ncil lors and representatives of the following West Region Tribal Council: from the Crane River Band, Gambler Band, Pine Creek Band, Valley River Band, Way Way See Cappo Band, Ebb and Flow Band, Keeseekoowenin Band, Rolling River, Waterhen Band and the President of the West Region Economic Development Corporation. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REPORT S Hon.

Bonnie Mltchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): I have the pleasure of tabling the Supplem entary In forma tion for Legislative Review for 19 91 -92 for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, Commun ity Su pport programs. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs, respo nsi ble for Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I have a ministerial statement to make, and I have copies for the House. Mr.

Speaker, the statement today is on behalf of myself as minister responsible for Northern and Native Affairs, as well as my colleague the Minister of Cultur e, Heritage and Citiz enshi p (Mrs. Mitchelson). I rise today to speak, Mr. Speaker, about the signing of an agreement earlier today to establish a gaming commission on the reserves that fall under the jurisdiction of the West Regional Tribal Council. Once again, this is an historic agreement.

Like The Pas Band, who signed a similar agreement in January of 19 90, this agreement will allow the people of the West Region Indian Bands to establish their own Indian gaming commission. I am pleased we have had such excellent progress on the issue of gaming on Indian reserves. With this agreement, Manitoba is continuing in its leadership role to find answers to challenges that face many provincial governments. Today's announcement is significant because it represents an agreement with an organization that represents mo re than one reserve, in fact, representing nine reserves and about 3,600 people.

This agreement has been achieved through a process of practical and constructive negotiation. A provincial negotiating team working under the policy direction of the minister responsible for Lotteries and myself has successfully negotiated this agreement with the chiefs and councils of the West Region Tribal Council. The leadership of these bands is to be commended for demonstrating leadership for their

part in the negotiation of an agreement that can serve as a model for future agreements with other Indian bands and tribal councils. I am proud that the Manitoba government, under the leadership of our Premier (Mr. Filmon), has taken a lead role in the establishment of the concept of gaming commissions on Indian reserves. The issue of gaming on Indian reserves in Canada is frequently a matter of legal conflict between provincial governments and Indian bands that receives considerable attention across the country.

It is significant, therefore, that Manitoba was able to achieve this negotiated settlement which can serve as an example for the resolution of this issue. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. * (1 335) Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Yes, thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, and I want to rise

1835 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 9, 199 1 and say that our party supports the agreement that was signed by the government and the bands. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr, Doer: If people have not had colds before, it has nothing to do with lip syncing, I can assure you. The very important precedent established by The Pas Band-and we are very proud to have the chief of that band in the New Democratic caucus-the precedent of establishing a co-operative approach to our gaming issues, I think, is not one just to congr atula te the gover nments but also to congratulate the First Nations.

There is a strong argument that First Nations, of course, have a tremendous unila teral jurisdiction in this area, and they are not under provincial control and jurisdiction as people, as First Nations that signed treaties with the federal government decades and years ago. We believe in a comprehensive approach to this issue. We believe that, not only should it be in the area of gaming, but also in issues like justice. We have another proposal on the table today for the Harmony Centre.

We are hoping the government will continue on a co-ope ra tive, Native self-gov ernment approach to corrections, to social services, to gaming, to education, to economic development and, Mr. Speaker, especially in the Constitution, where it is long overdue, that all Canadians recognize the inherent right of Canada's First Nations for self-govern men t and full self-government in our Constitution. We applaud the move today, but it is a very small step on a long journey that we must all travel together. Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): I rise today, and I want to applaud the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr.

Downey) and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) for making such a positive step. I think these steps are overdue. We have seen for the last 18 months what has happened during the Meech Lake crisis and the Oka crisis, and finally the people of this country have opened up. It is about time that we should start working and making sure that the Native commun ity of this country is given their rightful place in our society. I think, Mr. Speaker, it is not only the one issue.

As the member for Concordia has said, we have to make sure that the other issues which are equally impor tant -and above all the issue of the Constitution where the way the discussions are going, I think it will be again a terrible mistake, I think it is suicide, not to include the First Nations in that major step. I want to address one more issue here, which is very im portant, which the Minister of Health should take as special note, that the health care services for Native people in this country are worse than the Third World countries, and the statistics are very clear.

What has been happening as of 18 74, various governments have played this game, between the provincial and federal governments, and the issue has been ignored. They are at the bottom of the scale. I think it is about time that we should look towards all the issues and make sure that the issues of self-government-and ultimately make sure that people are given their proper place in our society. Thank you. * (1 340) TABLING OF REPO RTS Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): I would like to table, Mr. Speaker, the Supplementary Estimates of the Department of Urban Affairs.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Education System Train ing Programs Funding Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, today the government annou nced the other shoe in terms of their education programs in the province of Manitoba. They have decimated our public education system since January of this year, since they have had a majority government. What are they doing with the money that they are saving? They are putting it into tax breaks to corporations and other corporate training programs after cutting the public education system.

In the last Estimates, the commun ity college system, post-secondary education system, in this province had a decrease of $7 million and cutbacks from the Tory government. Today we hear that same money is going to go into corporations in the way of grants and training incentives. In other words, we are taking our public money for training and moving it over to the private sector. I would ask the Premier: Does he have any documentation at all to justify the cost benefit to Manitobans of privatizing our education system the way this Tory government is, just like Brian Mulroney is in Ottawa?

May 9, 199 1 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 1836 Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the program to which the member is referring is a reduction of payroll tax being paid by corporations who invest that money in educating and training their employees, and retraining their employees, to ensur e that they are capable of meeting the challenges of the new opportunities that avail themselves in this decade.

The reality is that, when this member was in a minority government, he supported the systematic reduction of the payroll tax because he recognized that it is a serious disincentive to job creation in this province. In fact, it is a documented destroyer of jobs in this province. We are having two positive effects out of this initiative. One is that we remove the disincentive to job creation; and, two, we have money in this province invested in educating and training our people.

Our human resource capital is the most important investment we can make, and by having corporations making that investment, it saves the taxpayer of Manitoba from having to make that investment. We went both ways, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the Premier did not answer the question. Does he have any documentation to support his cutback of $7 million in the public commu nity colleges and redirecting our public money to corporations? The Premier said that human resou rce developmen t is key thr ough training and development. We agree with that.

God knows, with all the cutbacks that have taken place in our public education system, I think we agree a lot more with his statements than he does in his own actions. Having said that, Mr. Speaker, how can he justify then cutting off all those job opportunities for training in the public community college system, which has a recognized 90 percent success ratio? Where can he show us a 90 percent success ratio for skill training and job opportunities as we had in the community college, which he has decimated? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, firstly, the member for Concordia is incorrect in his assertion of cutbacks.

If he will check the Estimates, he will see that public education in this province got increases, 3.5 percent to the public school system and some 3.5 percent to the universities. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, we, by virtue of this policy initiative, have two benefits. One, we succeed in reducing the payrol l tax being paid by the corporations of this province. It is recognized as a destroyer of jobs, that payroll tax. We are removing it systematically as his party supported when they were in a minority situation, I might say.

Finally, the record of those who do training in house, the private sector who train and retrain their own employees, has 10 0 percent success because those employees all have employment with that corporation as a result of that training carried on by the corporation. Mr. Doer: Well, as Brian Mulroney and the member for Tuxedo (Mr. Almon) privatize and Americanize our education system with tax breaks, let the record show that there was a decrease of $7 million in the budget dealing with post-secondary education and adult and continuing education.

Let the record show that this caucus voted against that decrease in the payroll tax requirement for corporations in the October budget. I would ask the Premier: How could he justify cutting that money out of commun ity colleges, which have had a success rate of not only training people but giving them skills that last through their lifetime? As opposed to corporations, when they close, the people are left with no skills except orientation that is now being subsidized by this government. How can you justify the public investment for skills over orientation programs in private corporations?

That is an erosion of our public school system, the erosion of skill development in our province and an erosion of our competitive situation in the world. • (1 345) Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, we are not making a public investment. Two aspects to this policy: One, payroll tax is removed from corporations, a payroll tax that has been demonstrated and documented to be a destroyer of jobs is removed from corporations; two, corporations are given an incentive to invest in training, upgrading, retraining their own employees for which those employees then have 10 0 percent success rate in keeping their jobs.

Pines Project Preferential Treatment Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows) : Mr. Speaker, in March 19 90, Flin Flon Rotary had applied for Seni ors RentalStar t fun ding . In April 19 90, Transcona Legion had submitted a completed application form and owned land. In April 19 90, the Elk's Lodge in Neepawa had submitted their

1837 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 9, 199 1 application. In April 19 90, Charleswood-Tuxedo Lions were turned down for second-stage funding in spite of having already committed 56 percent of their units. Will the Minister of Housing explain why preferential treatment was given to developer Bob Akman since his pet project was not submitted as an application until October 19 90? Hon. Jim Ernst (Mini ster of Housing ): Mr. Speaker, I have for days on end responded to the allegations of the member for Burrows. I have documented in the House.

If he wants the answers to those questions, he can simply read Hansard. All the answers are there. Mr. Martindale: The usual nonanswer from this minister. Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Housing table the 19 89 letter from Bob Akman, which allowed Rotary Pines to be given preferential treatment over four other non profit groups who had comple ted application forms? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, we have been through this process many, many times. I indicated to the House on previous occasions that the Rotary Pines initiated contact with the Department of Housing on February 23, 19 89.

You know, the member alleges preferential treatment. These projects come in, go out, go back, go forth. There are discussions happening with a whole host of organizations who wish to have housing projects built for a variety of reasons. The fact of the matter is, it was initiated in February of 19 89. I became the Minister of Housing on February 10 , 19 91 . Min ister of Housing Resignation Request Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows) : Mr. Speaker, since the Minister of Housing is trying to practise Gang of 18 politics at the cabinet table and dishes out favours to his Tory developer friends, will he now resign?

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Pines Project Letter of Intent Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, amidst all the controversy and confusion that swirls around the Pines project, Manitobans are left with one dominant image. That is the image of a government that has given preferential treatment to some Manitobans over others and a government that is playing patronage politics against the provincial interest. We now un derstand that the go vernment accepted a Letter of Int ent as su ffic ient documentation to save a spot for the Pines project.

Can the Mini ster of Housin g give any other examples of treating Letters of Intent as application for funds? Is this policy written down anywhere to guide departmental officials? (1 350) Hon. Jim Ernst (Mi nis ter of Ho using) : Mr. Speaker, as I have tried to explain to my honourable friends on a number of occasions-and they are having some difficulty, I think, in understanding how the process works. The case of awarding of any housing project is not necessarily made on the basis of first come, first serve.

When you have the ability financially, fiscally to build four, five or six projects a year and you have applications in excess of a hundred per year-and that application list of a hundred is in a variety of stages of process. Some are available to be built quickly, others are not. Some take time, some do not. Some require zoning. Some require further development design. Some requir e mar ket analysis-a whole host of things related to those projects. The question is not a matter necessarily of who comes first but a matter of need, Mr. Speaker, and a matter that is dealt with by the government on a regular basis.

Seniors RentalS tart Neepawa Appl lcatlon Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, reasons for turning down proposals have only come to light with the knowledge that the Rotary Pines project has been accepted. We have heard over the last number of days that Flin Flon was too rocky, Charleswood did not have enough seniors and Transcona had already received the project, but the minister has not given us any reasons at all why the Neepawa project was rejected. Can he give us reasons today in the House? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minis ter of Ho using) : Mr.

Speaker, I have indicated on a number of occasions that I became the Minister of Housing on February 10 , 19 91 . Events that occurred prior to that time, I

May 9, 199 1 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 1838 am not necessarily intimately familiar with. I have indicated I am looking into that matter. · Pines Project Unit Deposits Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, one would hope that the Minister of Housing is aware of decisions that predated his ministry when he is making decisions that are involved in the same number of projects. Yesterday the minister told us that 10 4 seniors had given down payments for a spot in the Pines building. Can the minister give the House any proof at all that 10 4 down payments have been received? Hon.

Jim Ernst (Mi nis ter of Housing) : Mr. Speaker, when the application for Pre-Development Fu nding was provided to the Department of Housing, the Department of Housing was satisfied that there were 10 4 applications for $250 deposits for units in that project. Free Trade Ag reement Export Enha ncement Program Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin ): The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) has been fond of reciting what he calls to be positive impacts of the trade agreement on Manitoba, on Canada.

However, he has also admitted that it has not provided any recourse with regard to the Export Enhancement Program, which is an unfair trade practice by the Americans, to protect Manitoba producers. As a matter of fact, the agreement is harming Canada with regard to the requirement to open the borders and allowing American wheat to come into Canada for domestic markets.

We were pleased that the minister has indicated some concern about the opening of this border, and I would ask the minister, in light of those statements, whether he has in fact taken action with regard to commu nicating this concern to the federal minister. What action can he outline for the benefit of the producers in Manitoba that he has taken, and what response has he received from the federal minister on that matter? * (1 355) Hon. Glen Flndlay (Minis ter of Agricultur e): I am pleased to report to the member that back in February we met in Regina.

I raised the issue with the federal minister in front of the other provincial ministers. I spoke to him one Sunday afternoon about three weeks later, again ra1srng those concerns, and he expressed to me his concern about the Export Enhancement Program. Maybe the opening of the border would be an issue that could be used on the table to negotiate reduction of the Export Enhancement Program, and he would try to find some technicalities on which to hold it up.

I wrote the minister on April 19 , expressing those same concerns that the import permit requirements should be looked at very carefully, and we should not act until we were sure that we did not have some technicalities to hold it up.

They have addressed that, and they have looked for some technicalities and fou nd tha t ther e were not any legal technicalities on which to hold it up, and also, because we have increased our exports of many grains to the United States very substantially in the past two years, that we did not want to do anything that might interfere with that flow of grain to that very major market for us. We export to some 60 countries in the world, and the United States has now moved up to seventh place on the list of important markets for us to export a wide variety of grains.

The United States is first, second or third on many of our grains that we are exporting out of this country, and that is an important market. We are concerned about the opening of the border, but we believe, because you have to have end-use certificates or denature, the grain that comes in here, we will protect our producers in terms of being able to have fair and equal competition. Mr. Plohman : That answer does not deal with the terrible im pact that the Export Enhancement Program is having, the American unfair subsidies, on American grain.

I asked a simple question for the minister: What action has he taken since the federal government announced its intention? Just the other day he had said he was concerned. What action has he taken since April 19 , not the letter that he sent? Also, can the minister advise the House as to the date that the Mulroney cabinet is set to amend the Wheat Board regulations to in fact open the border to American wheat coming into Canada? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, the recourse on the Export Enhanc ement Program is the GATT process. The GA TT process Uruguay Round has been in place since 19 86.

I expressed many times in this House my concern of the fact that we did not

1839 LEGISL ATIV E ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 9, 199 1 get a resolution of the GATT process in December in Brussels in 19 90. I am pleased that the GA TT process is now back slightly on track with officials negotiating amongst the various countries. Hopefully, we can move towards resolution of the export subsidy problem not only from the Un ited States' point of view but from the European point of view, to protect our interests. I spoke to the new federal Minister of Agriculture yesterday, but I cannot give the member their time frame with regard to their Order-in-Council. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Speaker, clearly the Export Enhancem ent Program is a vio lation of the agreement. The minister has admitted that. GRIP Program Ellglbll lty Review Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): I ask the minister another question regarding the GRIP program, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that more and more farmers are raising concerns about the inequities in GRIP-and that is currently a serious problem.

There are many inequities in GRIP, and the latest we have is that farmers who have pulled out of crop insurance recently, after being in crop insurance for many, many years, are getting absolutely no credit for the good record that they built up with crop insurance during the years that they were, in fact, enrolled. I would ask this minister, in view of that inequity and many others that have to come to light and that I have brought to this House, will he ask for a major review of the impact of the crop insurance records on the eligibili ty for GRIP coverage?

Will he conduct that review in conjunction with consultation with farmers so that they can be assured that fairness will be placed into this program , which is not there now? Hon. Glen Flndlay (Minis ter of Agricultur e): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to report to the member that the sign up has gone very, very well. Today is the 9th, but I have statistics here to the end of the 6th of May. The sign up has been some 12 ,000 producers out of 1 5,000 who come through the door to talk, and that is some 80 percent of the farmers who have come through the door.

The number of new crop insu rance contracts signed this year is over a thousand at this point in time. I would also like to remind the member that, some two weeks ago, I made an announcement that we will have a major review of the crop insurance structure. It will take place this coming summer. Appointments will be made shortly, and all farmers and all producers will have an opportunity to have input to that review committee. They will make major recommendations as to how crop insurance is handled from here on. Aborlglnal Justice System Government Commit ment Mr. George Hlckes (Point Dou glas) : Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Northern Affairs. Aboriginal people in Manitoba have heard a lot of empty promises from this government. One of those promises was their commitm ent to work towards an aboriginal justice system dispensed by aboriginals. I say that this government's promise was an empty one, because one program developed by the Interlake Reserve Tribal Council, which would be a unique opportunity to move towards the system of culturally appropriate justice, has been repeatedly stalled by the provincial government.

Will this minister assure the House that these excuses will not continue and that negotiations will now go ahead in good faith, with the government making every attempt to deal fairly and reasonably with the Native Harmony and Restoration Centre? * (1 400) Hon. James Downey (Minis ter of Northern Affairs, responsible for Native Affairs) : Mr. Speaker, with respect, I am sure the member must have got the research done of the government previous to this administration, in reading from some of the record of the NOP government in their term of office, when he talks of hollow promises and lack of delivery.

As far as the details of the particular question, I will take it as notice for my colleague, the Minister of Justice and Attorney General (Mr. Mccrae). Mr. Hlckes: Mr. Speaker, to the same minister. The government has also refused to deal fairly with the issue of the per diems required to provide adequate services at the centre. Not once have any provincial officials formally negotiated with the Interlake Reserve Tribal Council regarding this issue, which is supposedly one of the reasons why the project was rejected by the government in the first place.

May 9, 199 1 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 1840 Will the minister now assure the House that the per di ems will be discussed and that adequate funds will be made available to ensure the success of this program ? Mr. Downey: Mr. Speaker, again on behalf of my colleague the Minister of Jus tice and Attorney General (Mr. Mccrae), I will take that question as notice. I am aware the minister is working very aggressively with the Indian leadership in this particular regard. Aborlglnal Programs Funding Mr. George Hlcke s (Point Do ug las ): Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is to the Premier.

Will the Premier consider using the $8 milli on that he is pumping into the Workforce 2000 project to ensure that adequate resources are available, not only for this project, but also for other vital programs for aboriginal people, such as the ACCESS and the BUNTEP programs? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier ): Mr .

Speaker, I believe that, at this point in the session, the demands of the New Democratic Party for spending more money have now exceeded some $20 million in a variety of requests that they have made for support to mu nicipalities, support to agriculture, support for education, support for health care, support for cultural areas, support for natural resources, additional areas and so on. Every day, as they rise in the House, they are spending tens of mil lions of dollars more. The fact of the matter is that this government has done-- Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): You just spent $8 million today on your buddies, $4.5 million on your buddies last week. Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the member for Concordia to calm down, please. He has had an opportunity to ask questions. He did not do a good job of it, so now he is trying to encourage his other people. I would ask him to calm down. This government has continued to make- Mr. Doer: Money for their buddies and $8 milli on for their friends. Mr.

Fllmon: If the member for Concordia has any further comments to make, I would ask him to stand up and not have his backbenchers ask questions. He can ask the next question. As soon as I am finished answering this one, he can ask the next question, Mr. Speaker. If he is embarrassed by the way his backbenchers are asking questions, then he can ask the questions. We have put $10 million into interim settlements for the Northern Flood Agreement. We have entered into agreem ents with aborigi nal commu nities for -(i nterjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable First Minister has the floor. Mr.

Fllmon: We have put money into programs such as the northern Bachelor of Nursing program. We have put money into programs for support of aboriginal programs in education such as BUNTEP and ACCESS and those programs. We have put a program in place of recreation directors for northern Manitoba Native communi ties. All of these things were never done by the New Democratic Party when they were in government, Mr. Speaker, and they continue -(i nterjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, every time we put in programs for Northern and Native Manitobans that were never before put in by the New Democratic Party, they go on to other things because they are too embarrassed to address the things that they did not do when they were in government. Marianne Nyznak Home Care Program Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. One of my constituents, I have to use her name with her permission today-it is a very sad story.

Marion Nyznak, disabled mother of three, has been forced to stay at Seven Oaks Hospital for the last 18 days, not because of her own choice, but because she cannot get enough home care subsidy which is a necessity for her. It is costing $600 per day for a hospital bed, which could be saved, at least, by home care services at $80 per day. Can the Minister of Health tell this House why, when we have such financial difficulty, they are wasting $500 per day for a simple reason? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, if it was a simple answer to that very complex issue, it would not be before the House as my honourable friend brings it. There are difficulties in terms of working through the service provision of

184 1 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA May 9, 199 1 home care which, between, as I understand, the individual and the home care division, were unresolvable and resulted in this. Home care is willing, is mandated and has the budget to provide those services. Mr. Cheema: While the home care is manipul ating the whole thing, Mr. Speaker, Mrs. Nyznak may lose her three children because her legal counsel is saying, if she cannot go back home, she will lose her life.

Can the minister tell this House today and assure this House that she will get enough home care services so that she can go back to her private life, which has become a public life because of this minister's inaction? Mr. Orchard : I realize my honourable friend wants to make some political points in the House, but to make the accusation that this is- Point of Order Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Second Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, this is a very serious issue, and the minister is imputing motives from the member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema). I ask the Minister of Health to make a complete withdrawal. Mr.

Speake r: Order, please. The honourable member for lnkster did not have a point of order. * * * Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I made no accusation against the member for The Maples, except my honourable friend said this is my fault because I am personally, as Minister of Health, denying service, and that is rot. That is balderdash. Now, if my honourable friend the memberfor The Maples wants to resolve this issue for the benefit of the individual who he has identified in the House, he might want to talk to the home care co-ordinators who have attempted to provide this service.

He might find out- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Orchard : Mr. Speaker, what wild and beautiful rhetoric we have on that side of the House. Home care is quite willing to provide those services in the home. That is their mandate. They have the funding to do it. They have the ability to deliver the services and will do that. That is the commitment I give to my honourable friend and not because he raises the issue here in the House but because that is wha t home car e and this government, this ministry is attempting to do for those citizens who need that service in their homes.

We are willing and able to provide it. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, I, along with the home care services, did meet with Mrs. Nyznak in her house. That was in January, and the issue was discussed. That is why I said I have to use that name, because she gave me the permission. Mr. Speaker, this minister's department is so insensitive. They are wasting $600 per day. Last year, the minister said in this House that there is no deman d for home care services. They have underspent $4 million for the last three years. Why can he not simply do the decent thing, supply the home care services and save taxpayers' dollars? Mr.

Orchard: Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what the mini stry, the Department of Continuing Care is willing, able and wants to do, including in this case. It shall be done if they get over the difficulties of that service provision, which are not, because the department will not provide it. We have the budget. We have the personnel, and we have the ability to deliver the service and will. *(1 41 0) Racism Investigation Telephone Messages Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radlsson) : Mr. Speaker, in March we raised the issue of increased Ku Klux Klan recruitment in Manitoba.

Today, our concerns were confirmed with reports of a new, more offensive telephone message by the Klan. I am going to table a copy of the transcript from that answering machine. A parent told me today that KKK telephone numb ers are being circula ted am ongst school children, and they are being encouraged to call this telephone message. My question today is for the Mini ster responsible for Manitoba Telephone System. What steps has the minister taken to ensure that Manitoba telephones and answering machines are not being used to promote racial hatred? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minis ter responsible for the adminis tration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Mr. Speaker, I will endeavour immediately to find out the nature of the complaint that the person is raising and see what we can do as forthwith.

May 9, 199 1 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1842 Racism Investigation Telephone Messages Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radlsson) : Mr. Speaker, there was supposed to be an investigation on the KKK activities and their telephone messages. Has the minister sought a legal opinion, or has the government sought a legal opinion? If so, can he tell the House what can be done so the telephone can be shut down by use of the KKK? Hon. Clayton Manness (Acting Min ister of Justice and Attorney General) : Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Justice and Attorney General (Mr. Mccrae), I will take that question as notice.

Anti-Racism Programs Edu cation Programs Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radlsson) : Mr. Speaker, my final qu estion is for the mi nis ter of multiculturalism. Can the minister indicate whether there are any new programs by this government to assist schools in dealing with these type of racist incidents and racist attitudes in the schools? Hon. Bonnie Mltchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): I think part of that question could be asked of the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Derkach).

I am sure he would be willing to answer what is happening within the school division in his Estimates this afternoon, which he will be in. I do want to indicate, Mr. Speaker, that we have, over the last almost year and a half, seconded a person from my department in an initiative that the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik) and I have jointly been working on with the Manitoba Federation of Labour to look at ways of trying to combat racism within the workplace.

The Manitoba Federation of Labour and the government have these major concerns , and jus t yesterday I met with the Federation of Labour to get an update on how well they were progressing because we have put staff resources, seconded them over to the Federation of Labour. I am pleased to say that the work is moving along very well and that we will have modules that will be examined and will be piloted throughout the province over the next short period of time.

Those are things that I think are positive moves, that is, labour working together with government to ensure that we are developing ways in which we can combat racism in partnership. Home Care Program Gag Orders Ms. Judy Wasylycl a-L els (St. Johris) : Mr. Speaker, I am going to have to digress from the question I was intending to ask and tie into the home care issue, because the Minister of Health has suggested to us that, if we have particular cases dealing with home care, we should be meeting with and consulting with home care co-ordinators.

In fact, it has been my experience, the experience of the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) and others that, when we have attempted to go that route, we have been told that a gag order has been placed on those individuals and that we will have to go through the minister's office. I would like to ask the Minister of Health if, given his comments today, he is now prepared to go out of this House and lift the gag order on all home care workers and co-ordinators? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend is saying that there is some difficulty with home care cases.

I want to tell my honour able friend that I would have appreciated, because she started yelling from her seat when the member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema) was posing the last question, something about January. If she was aware of this individual's case in January, why did she not come to me to seek resolution instead of leaving it for three and a half to four months? Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Given the treatment of this government with respect to civil servants and its position on whistle blowers, I, Mr.

Speaker, and my colleagues will not put people in vul nerable positions of giving their names to the Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, will put her question now, please. Ms. Wasylyc la-Le ls: I would lik e to kno w specifically if the minister will issue a directive to officials in his staff in field line positions that they are able to deal directly with MLAs on constituency problems and casework issues so that we can get on with our jobs as MLAs? Mr. Orchard : Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend attempts to have it both ways.

She says there are these great pressing problems out there, but they

1843 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 9, 199 1 are not important enough to bring to my attention so I can seek remedy. Now who does my honourable friend try to fool with that kind of a statement? Either there is a difficulty which needs resolution-and I want to tell you that every time we have had a problem in home care drawn to our attention, we have investigated, and some of the action has been reinstatement or additional services or status quo or confirmation of the decision, because there has not been full information provided to my honourable friend.

Now she is suggesting that there are these cases out there that, if one would listen to her rhetoric, are just dire circumstances, and she is willing to let them not come forward to me in the normal process so that I can have staff appropriately investigate and deliver the services that she alleges are needed. Shame on her for leaving those people in that kind of circumstance. Ms. Wasylycla-Lel s: The Minister of Health has missed the point. We, as MLAs, are being denied the opportunity to do our job because, when we call into the field, we are being told to go through the minister's office.

Government Departments Gag Orders Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): I would like to ask the Premier, since this is now the second example of gag orders among his ministries, if he will take some action and ensure that all gag orders in all departments are lifted immediately? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, there are not gag orders in any government departments. We are following the policy that was set down by the New Democratic Party. If she wants, we will share with her copies of memos from Mr. Duhamel when he was Deputy Minister of Education under the former honourable Maureen Hemphill who- Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, members opposite want to have fun. This is Question Period. I will answer legitimate questions that are sincerely put, but if they want to just have fun and create a circus here, that is their business. St. James-Asslnlb ola School Division Enrollment lrregula rltles Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): The Auditor's repor t relea sed yes terd ay on the St. James-Assiniboia School Division found substantial irregularities at John Taylor Collegiate and laid blame, in no small part, at the feet of the St. James-Assiniboia School Division itself.

The report stated, and if can qu ote briefly: The division administration is responsible for ensuring adequate controls and accountability. In our opinion, these responsibilities were not fulfille d to the extent expected. Mr. Speaker, why, given this condemnation of the school division administration, has it been entirely left to that same administration to review further enrollment irregularities prior to 19 88? * (1 420) Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minis ter of Education and Training): It is true that the Auditor's report did make some recomm endations and did lay some responsibility in terms of the enrollment figures of the St. James -Assiniboia School Division. The irregularities that were found were found within the years that are highlighted in the Auditor's report, and indeed we are satisfied that there was no individual attempt on anyone's part to try and hide enrollment.

I have to indicate that school divisions have been using a system since 1 985-1 believe that was when the order went out from the Minister of Education at that time to institute a computerized program of enrollment figur es for each school division and for each school. That system has been in place. Indeed, it is found now that there need to be some corrections made to that system, and the St. James School Division, along with the Department of Education an d Training, is moving towards tight enin g up the proced ur es of reporting enrollment.

The department, by the beginning of the next school year, will have in place policies and procedures that will be developed appropriately to reflect appropriate enrollment figures in each school across this province. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Nonpolltlcal Statements Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, wonder if I might have leave for a nonpolitical statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable First Minister have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave. It is agreed.

---- -- - May 9, 199 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1844 Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that all members of the Legislature will be interested to learn of the birth last evening at 10 :1 0 p.m. of Jessica Elizabeth Praznik. Jessica is the daughter of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik) and his wife, Shelly, and a sister to Kaitlin. She weighed 7 pounds, 8 ounces. I am sure that all honourable members will join me in extending best wishes and congratulations to the proud parents and sister Kaitlin. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : Mr.

Speaker, I would like to have leave for a nonpolitical statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable Leader have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Yes. Mr. Doer: I would like to have our caucus join with all members of the Legislature in applauding the father, mother and the new daughter of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik). We wish the mother and Jessica and the minister well with their new family that they have. Thank you. Mr. James Carr (Deputy Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, may I please have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member for Crescentwood have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Leave. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, I, too, on behalf of my colleagues, would like to congratulate the Minister of Labour and his wife, Shelly, and Kaitlin on the birth of the new child. This has particular significance to those of us who were on the constitutional task force, because we cannot ever arrange a meeting because of the pending birth of this child. Now that the Praznik household is in order, perhaps we can get on with the business of saving the country. Congratulations to the Minister of Labour and his family.

Hon. Darren Praznlk (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, if I may indulge the patience of the House for a brief moment just on behalf of- Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable minister have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Praznlk: Thank you on behalf of my wife, Shelly, and Kaitlin and Jessica. I would like to thank all of the members of this Assembly for their kind wishes to my family on this very proud day in our household.

There are many times in this Chamber where the partisan nature of politics puts us opposite one another, but it is times like this where we appreciate those very important things which are very near and dear to all of us. On behalf of my family-which has expanded a little in the last 24 hours-I want to thank everyone here for their best wishes. It is a tremendous day in our lives, and thank you for sharing your thoughts and your best wishes with us. Hon. Harr y Enns (Mi nis ter of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, may I have leave for a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable minister have leave?

Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave. Mr. Enns: Mr. Speaker, I would just lik e to acknowledge the grandparents of the new Praznik arrival who made all this possible. ORDE RS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St.

Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Education and Training. CONCURR ENT COMMITTEES OF SUPP LY SUPPLY-CULTURE, HERITAGE AND CITIZENSHIP Mr. Deputy Chairman (Marcel Laurendeau): Order, please. Will the Comm ittee of Supply please come to order. Today, this

section of the Comm ittee of Supply will continue considering the remaining Estimates of

1845 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA May 9, 199 1 the Department of Cu lture, Heritage and Citizenship. When this

section last met it was considering lines 6. (

k) Mu lticultural Gran ts Advisory Council $1,009,200, and the proposed motion of the honourable member for lnkster (Mr. Lamou reux), which reads: I move, that line 6.(

k) be omitted and that line 6. be reduced to $31,71 7, 10 0. Shall the motion pass? Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I want to speak on this motion because I think it is very important, especially how the members of the government have spoken on this motion and how they have tried to manipula te the whole thing. What they think about the multicultural committee, they think it is a big joke. I think they should look at their faces and read their own comments, what they have been doing.

They think that just visiting the multicultural community in the election campaigns will make you the -(in terjection) anytime. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Order, please. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, would you order the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) to keep qui et, because we keep qui et when he talks and we expect the same kind of courtesy? Mr. Deputy Chairman: Order, please. The honourable member for The Maples has the floor. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think it is very important to understand why this motion was presented.

The motion clearly indicates how this government has ma nipula ted the mul ticu ltural grants and how they have given them in the hands of a very political, motivated- their own appointed comm ittee, and how they have tried to use the mul ticultural commu nity for their political gain. They think that only visiting a mu lticultural commu nity dur ing election campaigns, having coffee parties, visiting their dances, meeting with five individuals in an age group is making them look good in the multicu ltural community. It is really sad.

That how they can stand in this House and this Chamber and criticize the member for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux) who has brought a very legitimate concern that this government is not doing what they are supposed to do and what they say-e xactly. For th em, mu lticult ur alism , as with man y politicians in this country, has become a big slogan, and many people abuse that slogan. They think that people do not understand. It is politically a very popular thing to do in the campaigns. When it has come to the real situation of delivering things, they do not live up to their promises. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I want to ask the min ister, they shoul d tell us what have they achieved in the mu lticultural policy. Have they fought the fight against racism? They have not even dealt with some of their own federal parts who are speaking not very good of the racist problem in Manitoba, and one example has been one of the members of the federal ring has been quoted saying that there is a possibility that the racism does not exist. I think somebody who thinks that racism does not exist, they are living, not in this country, but somewhere else. So this government has not done anything to fight racism .

Have they done to find the langua ge program-I mean the ESL language program was functioning so well. Now they try to take it from the Education board people, who know what to do, into the Culture and Citizenship program, which will ultimately give this minister more power to control the multicultural commu nity. That is a shame, and they think that nobody knows about that? That we have listened to them and then, when we are bringing the positive things and we are telling them what is wrong, you go off to, you spend your own time.

You are spending hours and hour s jus t dis cussin g something which is not there, and then you think that we are going to sit back and take that kind of harassment. I think that is a shame. What have they done with education in terms of schools, in terms of their education for racism? Have they made the program for during the school education program, which is the human rights program? Have they made it mandated? No, they have not done it. So what have they achieved in the multicultural policy? What is th eir record on the boar ds an d commissions of Manitoba?

How many people from minorities have they put on the boards? Just to name a few, other than the major positions, can they name more than two or three in a major board position where the decisions are made? Can you name? Have you met anybody on the boards and commissions from the visual minorities? Nil. That is your multicultural policy. If that is a policy- * (1 440)

May 9, 199 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 1846 Mr. Edward Connery (Portage la Prairie): You are a liar, Guizar. You are a liar. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Order, please. I would like to remind the the honourable member for Portage la Prairie that the word "liar" in the past has been ruled nonparliamentary, and I would ask the honourable member to withdraw that statement. I would like to remind the honourable member for Portage la Prairie that it was nonparliam entary, and I would ask him to retract that statement. Mr. Connery: Mr. Deputy Chairman, under duress I will withdraw that comment. Mr.

Deputy Chairman: Thank you. Mr.Cheema: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I have to thank the member, but it is not coming from my heart. It is not the first time that this member has done, has shown wha t is really un derneath, wh at his philosophy of multiculturalism is, how he would deal with the cultural groups and how he would deal with the minorities. I think it is very painful for him to-- Mr. Deputy Chairman: Order, please. I would like to remind the honourable member that we are dealing with the motion of the honourable member for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux) which is: I move that line 6.(

k) be omitted and that line 6. be reduced to $31,71 7,1 00. I would ask the honourable member to remain relevant. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I think my comments are relevant in terms of the policy. When a member of the governing party is speaking for the policy and they are part of the cabinet or part of the caucus, that reflects their policy. The policy seems very clear that it is just a lip service, and they do not want to listen to anyone who has ideas, they do not want to reach the commu nities, they do not want to reach to the grass-root commu nities to make sure that their values are represented.

They are not going to shut me down here, if I want to say something which is right. I am not going to be shut down by any member. They should make it clear, it is not the election campaign where they can make all these false accusations and get away with this. I am an elected member and I will abide by the rules, but I will also exert my rights in this Chamber. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that is clearly the kind of attitude which exists on the government benches, arr og ance and manipu lating the cu ltural commun ities, and above all, they have manipu lated our motion to the extent that it stinks.

It is very sad that in 19 91 , and after knowing what is happening in this country, what has happened with the- Mr. Deputy Chairman: Order, please. I am going to ask the honourable member to please choose his words very carefully. Some of the words that you are bringing up have been ruled nonparliamentary before, and I would really ask you to keep them relevant if we are going to have the proper decorum in the room. Mr. Cheema: Okay, Mr.

Deputy Chairman, if some of the words fall in the category of the grey zone, of not to be used in this Chamber, I will be very careful, but I expect the same thing from the members of the opposite side. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, what the mul ticultural commun ity, what the new Canadians, what the visual minorities want, they want simple respect, and that respect will only come if the members of this caucus will respect their values, respect their ideas, give them basic values of life, not lip service for what they have done with the multicultural grants.

This is a typical disorganization which has been given power to spend money there for their own political gain. This is a typical example. For me, in this House, to sit back and listen and then say, well, government is doing a good job, I think it is dishonesty. I am not going to be dishonest to myself, because if I am not going to be honest to myself, how am I going to do good for anyone else, so I think I am forced to speak on this motion, that this government is not living up to the expectation. This government has failed in many ways.

This government's own ministers and the episode of 19 88 is still very much fresh in the memories of people of Manitoba. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is very sad that when we come to this House, we take an oath that we will represent each and every individual in the best possible way, but if for political gain you are going to try to shut down a commu nity member or part of a Manitoba community or part of the visible minority because-you can shout at me, I am not going to take it.

I am not going to take it from any member because I do not do it, and I do not accept it because to bow before arrogance is to give preference to arrogance. Mr. Deputy Chair man: Order, please. I will remind the honourable member one more time that he has used an unparliam entary word again, and

1847 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 9, 199 1 that is "arrogance." It was ruled unparliamentary. I would ask the honourable member to withdraw that. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, basically I wanted to end up saying that I support the motion-- Mr. Deputy Chairm an: Order, please. I have asked you to withdraw the word "arrogance." Mr.Cheema: Okay, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if that word is unparliam entary, I will withdraw it, but basically what I wanted to end up-I wanted to say that the member for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux) has put the motion-t he motion's intent is very clear.

It is clear how that money could be used through the MIC. MIC is a body which represents grass roots, represents people who are concerned. They are not part of any special political group, and that power should be given to them. That is what the member for lnkster has said, and somebody to suggest that the Liberal Party-the party which has, in fact, formu lated the whole policy of mu lticulturalism-is going to try to cut the throat of the cultural policy? Is this the way politics is run in this country?

Is this the way the politicians run and have, you know, is that the way to decide things and shut somebody down ? Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am very disappointed, so very disappointed to see that after three years in this House, the attitude of some of the members of the government benches have not changed. I do not think it is going to change, that does not matter to me any more. What does matter is that people out there should know the truth and nothing but the truth. I support the motion presented by the member for lnkster (Mr. Lamour eux). Thank you. Hon.

Bonnie Mltchelson (Minister of Culture, He ritage and Citizensh ip ): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am somewhat disturbed with the comments that have been put on the record this afternoon. I believe that within the political process and what we experience within the Legislature on a day-to-day basis during Question Period, there are comments that fly back and forth across the House from the government's side to the opposition's side, and memb ers on both sides of the House sometimes are guil ty of making comments that mi ght in some way embarrass others on the opposite side of the House.

I do not think that any of us sitting in the Legi sla ture can abdicate resp onsibilit y for comments that are made. I believe that in the forum where we sit as politicians, those comments are made for whatever reason, and they are not made as a result of racist comments in any way. I do not believe that there is any member who sits in the Legislature, who has been elected to represent the constituents that elected them, who in fact would treat any one member of the Legislature any differently than another.

I speak as a Mi nis ter responsible for Multiculturalism, and I do know that members of the New Democratic Party and members of the Liberal Party also, in times of anger and times when they feel that somebody has said something that is a little foolish or a little silly, have not made comments that might tend to attempt to embarrass members on the opposite side of the House. I guess it is not a very proud day for me as a Manitoban and as an elected member of the Legislature to believe that any of us would intentionally make comments that would be specifically racist in any way.

I certainly believe that all members of the Legislature are equal members of the Legislature. Some of us are on the government side and have the decision-making power, and the role of the opposition is to be critical of some of those decisions that are made. I honestly believe that every member who sits in this House has a concern and a desire to promote multiculturalism . We all may decide to do it in different ways. We might institute different programs.

We might put in place different vehicles that would fund our community, but there is no member on the government side of the House and there is no member in opposition that could come right out and say that they do not support mul ticulturalism , and there is not funding going and there will not continue to be funding, no matter what government is in power in the Province of Manitoba. * (1 450) I think that there comes a time when sometimes the comments that are made in this Legislature are comments that would not promote mul ticulturalism , and when we do not have people in elected office that believe that we are all here for the same purpose-and that is to represent the constituents that elect us, and those constituents come from all different backgrounds, Mr.

Deputy Chairman. I believe all of us are here because the majority of those people elected us and we want to do a good job.

May 9, 199 1 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 1848 I am somewhat disappointed that anything that is said, whether unparliamentary language is used in one context or another, that it is used by many members in many different ways, and that I do not believe the comments that have been made here in the Chamber by the member for Portage (Mr. Connery) or here in the Chamber by the member for The Maples (Mr. Ch eema), because unparliam entary language has been used on both sides.

I do not believe that the member for Portage La Prairie was making a racist comment, just as I do not believe that the member for The Maples was making a racist comment. Point of Order Mr. Cheema: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order. I will reply to any member's questioning in this House, and I will not take any abuse. I will not give, but I will not take any abuse. I want to make it veryclear- Mr. Dep uty Chairman : Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. *** Mrs. Mltchelso n : Thank you, Mr.

Dep uty Chairperson, and I just want to comment on some things that were said by the member for The Maples (Mr. Chee ma) just a few minutes ago when he talked about this government taking absolutely no action in regard to racism, in regard to English as a Second Language progr am ming, and in regar d to mu lticultu ral gran ts being pu rely politically motivated. I guess, I would challenge him to come forward and say that the 237 grants that were approved by the Multicultural Grants Advisory Council went to political friends of the Conservative Party.

I believe all members of the commu nity were served very well, and I do not believe that there is any one com muni ty out ther e that is solely, pu rely Conservative or Liberal or New Democrat because every individual within this province, I believe, has the opportunity and does take the opportunity to think for themselves, to believe philosophically the way they believe and vote the way they feel is right. There is not one comm unity, one mul ticultural commun ity, out there that does not cross all party lines.

I believe that all 237 of these grants that were al located by the Multicu ltural Grants Advisory Council were done in the best interest of the commun ity-e very organization that has probably card-carrying members of all three political parties and members who really have the best interest of their communi ty at heart. So I tend to take exception with some of those comments that were made. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in regard to racism and what our government has done, I have indicated in the House today and I will repeat again for the member for The Maples (Mr.

Cheema), that in fact the Manitoba Federation of Labour recognized that within the union movement, within the work force out there, there was racism. They came forward to government and indicated they wanted to work to eliminate racism in the workplace, and they ask government to join with them in a way of funding. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, rather than giving them just an allocation of dollars, we decided that it was very im por tant that someone from within government work with the Federation of Labour to help develop those initiatives; those initiatives that could be used throughout government could be used by the unions, could be used in the workplace, and used within the education system to provide ways and means that we could all work together in partnership to try to eliminate racism. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I met with the Federation of Labour yesterday.

They have made great strides in conjunction with government to put in place modules that can be adapted to government, to commu nity organizations, to the education system, to the unions and to the work force. I commend the Federation of Labour, and I also commend the staff person from government who has been working very closely with them. We will be piloting those modules over the next short period of time, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, so that in fact they can be changed or modified, if they need to be, so that there will be no duplication between what government is doing and we are not spending mo ney over again.

We will be worki ng very co-operatively throughout the province of Manitoba to ensure that all of us are sensitive to the issues surrounding racism and all are working together to try to eradicate racism . Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I want to talk a little bit about ESL, and I want to indicate that this is Multiculturalism Week in the province of Manitoba, in the education system. I had the opportunity, just at noon today, to be over at Point Douglas School

1849 LEGISL ATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 9, 199 1 with those who are taking adult ESL program ming at the school. All of the different communi ties involved had a cultural display set up. All of those who were taking the courses took great pride in presenting to me, as the minister, their culture, their heritage and explaining to me some of the customs, the traditions, the crafts and the activities that go on in their home country. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I do want to say that it was a very proud moment in my life, and I felt very good about the type of funding that we are providing to Winnipeg School Division No. 1 for adult ESL programming. I want to indicate that the students who were taking the progra mmin g were very pleasant, were very pleased and thanked me profusely for the money that we have put into ESL training. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have no hesitation in indicating to those students that there will be money for ESL programming in the province of Manitoba under our government forever.

For any of the opposition to indicate that we are not funding ESL, when we have a commitment of over $1 million in the Winnipeg School Division No. 1 for adult ESL training, I think, is absolutely wrong. They are sending the wrong message out to the community. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I wanted to put those comments on the record, because I was somewhat upset with some of the not-qu ite-factual information that was being put on the record by the member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema), and I wanted to clear that up. Mr. Connery: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, I regret my comments to the member for The Maples, but when the comments made by the member for The Maples are made, it infuriates me, and it infur iates me that he would insinuate that members of any party in this Legislature would be disrespectful and only give lip service to the mul ticultural commu nity. I was Minister of Labour, and I tell you I fought hard for the visible minorities, for all people in Manitoba, the women. I was in Affirmative Action, I worked hard and I was proud of my record, but he says point out one or point out two that you have done.

The Civil Service Commis sion that I appointed-two visible mi norities on that Civil Service Commission that I appointed. I never heard the Liberals once condemn us for the make-up of the Civil Service Commission, and we can go and on forever listing the boards, commissions, the visible minorities, the women from all nationalities, not just visible minorities, that we have put on. When the member for The Maples (Mr.

Cheema) makes those comments on the record, then he better be prepared to take flack, because I will not sit idly by while that member ma kes those comments about any member, and especially me or members of our party who are sincerely concerned about the multicultural communi ty. Thank you. * (1 500) Mr. Deputy Chairman: Is the committee ready for the vote? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Ben Svelnson (La Verendrye): Mr. Deputy Chairman, the member for lnkster, and in fact the Liberal Party, has put forward a motion to remove-I have a couple of short questions to the minister.

Could the minister tell us how many hours his council members spend on each allocation round? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am informed that for preparation time there is a lot of work that goes into preparing to provide the allocations. There are about three rounds of allocations per year; about 30 hours are spent per volunteer in preparing for the allocation round and about 42 hours per volun teer for the actual allocation, so a total of about 70 hours per volunteer. Mr. Svelnson : Mr. Deputy Chairman, I have another question for the honourable minister.

Does the council have any other functions to perform in addition to making al location recommendations to the minister? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I guess the one answer I would like to give is indicate that they are continually looking at and evaluating the program in terms of the communi ty response and listening to those out in the community for their feedback on how the allocations, how the process is going. Mr. Svelnson: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I just have one more short, brief question. Has MGAC been able to overcome some of the problems previously experienced by the MIC?

For example, you had mentioned the perception of conflict of interest, that type of thing. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think that, when we look at the perception of conflict of interest, MGAC has not been subjectto any criticism in that respect. The council members are not

- May 9, 199 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1850 chosen on the organization that they represent, but they are chosen based on their ability to deal with the entire mu lticultural commu nity, to look at all different projects based on the merit of the project and make allocations accordingly. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Is committee ready for the vote? Okay. The motion moved by the honourable member from lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux) before this

section of the Comm ittee of Supply meeting in Room 255 is: I move that line 6.(

k) be omitted and that line 6. be reduced to $31 ,71 7,100. All those in favour of the proposed motion, please say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Deputy Chairm an: All those opposed to the proposed motion, please say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Deputy Chairman: I my opinion, the Nays have it. We will now move on to resolution (

k) Multicultural Grants Advisory Council, $1,009,200. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnks ter) : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I must say right from the onset that I am very disappointed that the New Democratic Party-I had half expected the Co nservative Part y-to oppose this motion , but I am very surprised and amazed that the New Democratic Party is now on the record for supporting MGAC. And that is what the issue is all about. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : The member is blatantly fraudulent in his comments.

The member, if he did not understand his motion, we just did the member a favour, and he should really be quiet for a while, having made a mistake that he made just recently to delete a million dollars. We tried to do the member a favour and tried to do the Legislature a favour, because this was getting heated way out of proportion because of a dumb resolution. I think he should just drop it and let us get on to the department's Estimates. Let us start taking the high road and stop these cheap partisan comments. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Order, please.

I would like to remind the honourable member that the word "fraudu lent" has been ruled nonparliamentary, and I would ask the honourable member to withdraw it. Will the honourable member from Concordia (Mr. Doer) withdraw that statement. Mr. Doer: I will withdraw the word "fraudulent." Mr. Deputy Chairman: Thank you. *** Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chair person, it is unfortunate that the Leader of the New Democratic Party did not hear my opening remarks prior to introducing the motion. I can understand why he is somewhat sensitive to the issue, but I did want to comment in regard to MIC.

Regarding their last fiscal year, they were granted out $1,296,000. When it was switched over to the MGAC board that was appointed, I wonder if the minister can tell me why it was decreased. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, when the Multicultural Grants Council was created, there was an actual 3 percent increase in funding, Lotteries allocation to the multicultural commun ity, through this line. The fact of the matter is that within the money that was previously flowing through MIC the bingo days were included in that.

There is approximately $300,000 worth of bingo days that are not included in the line under MGAC, but they were included under the Manitoba lntercultural Council. Mr. Lamoureux: Maybe the minister can tell me if I am correct in making the statement that in MIC' s last annual report, '88-89- Mr. Deputy Chairman: Order, please. I would like to remind the honourable member that we are dealing with line (

k) Multicultural Grants Advisory Council, and MIC questions should be asked in the MIC section. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, MGAC gives out grants, took over the grant function from MIC, and what I am trying to establish here is, in fact, that there was a decrease to MGAC. Can the minister tell me if the annual report submitted by MIC that had different organizations receiving a total of $1.296 million-is that correct? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, yes, that is correct, and that was including bingo days which are not included in MGAC's line.

Bingo days are allocated to the commu nities and there is no con crete number. Obvio us ly, the Man itoba lntercultural Council must have, at the time, had reports back from the commun ities that indicated

1851 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 9, 199 1 how much bingo allocation there was, but that was included-it is not included. When the money was transferred over to the Multicultural Grants Council, the line that was there for direct grants to the commu nity increased by 3 percent. Mr. Lamoureux: I guess the bottom line is MIG did distribute $1.296 million, and then it was decreased to-we ll, the organizations, I do not know if the mi nister wants me to read. I can read every organ ization that received the money, and the total-and she is nodding her head-co mes to $1.296 million.

That is money that went out to the mul ticultural commu nity. That is the question. Is that the money that went out to the multicultural commu nities? • (1 510 ) Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think I have this. When the money was transferred over to the Mu lticultural Grants Council from the Man itoba ln tercultural Counc il, the Man itoba lntercultural Council had some reserve in money. They had money that they had not allocated for some reason, and rather than transferring money over to MGAC through the transition, they allocated all of the money that they had in that year. Mr. Lamoureux: So, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the minister then is saying that, in fact, they did distribute that $1.296 million to the multicultural communities. Is that correct? Mrs. Mltchelson: If I can correct the comment that I made then that bingo days are included. In fact, in that fi gur e that the member for ln kster (Mr. Lamoureux) is quoting, yes, that was the money that was allocated, but some of it would have been money that was held from previous years that was not allocated. The Manitoba lntercultural Council wanted to clean up their account before it was transferred over to MGAC. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, there is carry-over every year, and the point of the matter is that last year in MIG they did distribute out that number of dollars. Now following, when MGAC took over, the amount that was distributed to the different organ izations-and that is carry-over also-was $1,009,200. Is that correct? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chai rperson , I cannot give an exact answer. I can give a complete explanation of this when we come back or a little bit later.

What I am saying is, because I do not have in front of me what the Lotteries allocation was to the Manitoba lntercultural Council previously, I do not have that figur e in front of me. I will get that information and I will provide it. What I am saying is, the money that was allocated to the Manitoba lntercultural Council was X number of dollars. They may have granted more because they had a carry-over from the previous year or because they had a reserve fund because they did not give out all the grant money that they could have in previous years.

What I am saying to you is that the Lotteries dollars that went to the Manitoba lntercultural Council had a 3 percent increase when they were transferred over to the Multicultural Grants Council. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, MIG still has a reserve fund, and they are not making contributions to the mul ticultural commu nity in the same fashion in whic h they are.

What I am suggesting to you is the fact that the minister, once taking over the distribution of those grants-and it is in black and white in the Annual Report on MIG and it is in her own budget-t here is a cutback of close to $300,000 wher e the mu lt icu ltural commu nity received $300,000 less in contributions from MGAC over MIG. If that is not correct, I would like her to explain in what fashion-why is it not correct? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the reports, as the member indicates, are in black and white.

I will indicate that the Manitoba lntercultural Council may have spent more, but they cleaned out their bank account, and any money that had not been spent from years before was allocated by the Manitoba lntercultural Council. The allocation from Lotteries increa!'led by 3 percent to the Multicultural Grants Council, so there was a 3 percent increase in funding. (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) If I can put some figures down on paper and show them to the member for lnkster, maybe he can understand then, and I will attempt to do that. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, does the minister have at handthe '87-88 MIG Annual Report, and if so, what was the amount that they allocated at that time? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I do not have that. I will get that information and provide it. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I cannot think offhand, I know that in fact it was less than 1 .296 for the previous year, but hopefully we will be able to get those figures shortly, because before we

May 9, 199 1 LEGISL ATIV E ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1852 pass this line I would like to discuss it. Maybe if the minister can tell me why, if she does not want to admit to decreasing the funds from MIC to MGAC, then why is it that she chose to freeze it for this year? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, all of the umbrella groups-and MGAC is one of the umbrella groups, it is the mul ticultural umbrella group, the Manitoba Arts Council is another one, the Manitoba Heritage Federation is another one, the Manitoba Commu ni ty Se rvices Council was another one-they all received a zero percent increase this year in funding, so they were not treated any differently from any other umbrella group. It was a time when-in very difficult financial times we were able to maintain the funding to all of those umbrella groups, but there was no increase to any other umbrella group.

MGAC was treated exactly the same as every other group. Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radlsson): I think the point that both my Liberal colleague and I are trying to make is the way that mu lticultural granting in this province has been politicized. I guess I just want to say that I support the concept of transferring back, granting authority to a communi ty accountable agency. I do not care what you call it-t hat is not the issue; but that is the point that we are trying to make. The question I would like to ask the minister is-I am gla d that the member for lnkster (M r.

Lamoureux) has a copy of the MIC report from its last year that it was granting grants. I would like to ask the minister: When was the last time that MGAC reported back to the communities with a record of who got the grants and how much they were? Mrs. Mltchelson : Mr. Acting Chairperson, that would be through me as minister. I believe that information has been asked for, and it will be provided. Ms. Cerll ll : It has been asked for by the committee? Mrs. Mltchelson: No, by the opposition members. Ms. Cerll ll: I would think that it is also of interest to the communities.

I would think an organization that is giving out grants to government organizations is publicly accountable and should be putting out an annual report, when they are granting over a million dollars to different communities. That is part of the point that we are trying to make. I understand that when MIC had the authority for grants they reported back to the commu nities three times a year. Can the minister or her staff verify that? Mrs. Mltchelson : It is my understanding that through their Annual Report they would have reported that to the community. I cannot confirm any other report to the commu nity.

They are an independent organization, and in fact if they did that I am not aware. I do know that they reported through their Annual Report, and the question that arises is a good question. We will certainly take into consideration, including in our departmental Annual Report the activities of the Multicultural Grants Advisory Council. Ms. Cerll ll: Okay.

Another way tha t it is demonstrated, the way that this whole procedure has been politicized and is seen and that I would say is causing mo re problems in ethnocultur al commu nities than having both the advisory function and the granting function with MIC, is that the grants are approved by the minister in a way that they were not before. Can the minister show letters from MGAC that would indicate that they are the ones that are sending out the letters to the commu nity groups, or I can ask the question: Where do the letters come from that appr ove gr ants to the commu nity organizations? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, MGAC makes recommendations to the minister on what grants should be allocated. There is ministerial approval of those grants. MGAC sends letters out ind icating tha t they have reco mm ended to governmentthat a grant be approved, and ultimately the letter comes from the minister. * (1 520) Ms. Cerllll: I would appreciate then, when the minister is preparing the package which we have been asking for now almost a week of a report on MGAC grants, that she would include some sample letters. If she likes, she can exclude the names of the organizations, but to have some sample letters.

I would also like the research done to show the procedure and letters that were sent out when MIC had the responsibility for that. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, MIC, at that time, had the responsibility, and I believe that the member for Radisson could get that information from the Manitoba lntercultural Council. I do not

1853 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 9, 199 1 have copies of the letters that the Manit oba lntercultural Council sent out. They would have those copies, and she could ask them for those. Ms. Cerll ll: Another area where there is some concern with the way that the process has been politicized and changed is the whole area of conflict of interest. When MIC had the granting function, they were very careful that there was some conflict of interest protection by the members who are involved in reviewing the applications.

Can the min ister explain what the conflict of interest guidelines or cautionary measures are now with MGAC? Mrs. Mltchelson : Mr. Acting Chairperson, they would be the provincial conflict of interest guidelines that all provincial government would be held accountable to. Ms. Cerll ll: I am not in a rush. I would like the minister to explain the process that is used by MGAC. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I can supply a copy of the Provincial Conflict of Interest Guidelines, and those are the same ones that are followed by the Multicultural Grants Council. Ms.

Cerllll: My understanding of the purpose of Estimates is that we would like the information on the record. I would like the minister to put the procedure on the record, please. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I will get a copy of the Pro vin cial Conflict of Interest Guidelines and read them into the record as soon as I can possibly get a copy of that. Ms. Cerllll: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, there were some specific procedures that MIC used to address the whole question of having members with an interest or knowledge or contact with a community group that was applying for a grant, so that there would not be a problem with them having input into the grant application or approval process. Can the minister assure us that these similar guidelines are followed, and can she provide some proof to the committee? Mrs. Mltchelson : Mr.

Acting Chairperson, I can absolutely assure that those same procedures are followed, that people do not-if there is a community allocation being made, they absentthemselves from the room. I do know that. That was what, I believe, the Manitoba lntercultural Council did. I do not know; I cannot confirm that completely. I cannot- just as I do not believe the Manitoba lntercultural Council could-provide any proof to the member unless I was actually sitting in the room myself going over those grant applications. I could not provide any proof in this instance either. Ms.

Cerll ll: What happens in MGAC now with the applications after they are reviewed? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, they are filed. Ms. Cerllll: I will go on to a third area which I believe is showing the problems with having MGAC function as it does to al locate gr ants to mu lticultural commu nities-that they are missing out, are not able to provide the same kind of community development function that MIC did. What kind of co-ordination -can the minister give some examples of how MGAC has helped to co-ordinate groups that are applying for funds?

If there are two community organizations that, for example, are wanting a grant to hold the same kind of workshop, these commu nities would be brought together and we would save some money, and also there would be the benefit of having that cross-cultural component to the workshop. I know that M IC, when they were responsible for approving the grants, that was one fu nction that they were able to provide. Mrs. Mltchelson : Mr. Acting Chairperson, I think that cross-cultural awareness and commu nities working with commu nities is a great idea.

I do not necessarily know whether it has to be done by a funding body, or if, in fact, that should not be the role and the responsibil ity of gover nm ent, the secretariat, the Manitoba lntercultural Council and all of the com mu nity organizations promoting working together and putting applications forward. I know that each application that comes in is analyzed and assessed, and the allo cations are made accordingly. Ms. Cerllll: To the minister's knowledge, is there any contact between MGAC and MIC on trying to do that kind of co-ordination when grants are being applied for? Mrs.

Mltchelson : My understanding is that in order for information to be obtained on commu nities applying for grants, that, in fact, the staff at MGAC has been in contact with the Manitoba lntercultural Council to get that kind of information.

May 9, 199 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1854 Ms. Cer llll: Can the min ister explain some examples to show that MGAC has been involved in doing that kind of co-ordination work with MIC? Mrs. Mltchelson : Mr. Acting Chairperson, I would have to go back to the staff at MGAC, get that information and provide it. I do not have it here in front of me. Ms. Cerllll : That brings me to another question. Can the minister explain why the staff person from MGAC is not here? We have been dealing with this line item for a couple of days now. Is there some rule that I do not know about? Mrs. Mltchelson : Mr.

Acting Chairperson, it is not usual for the chairp erson of any um brella organization that distributes funding on behalf of government to appear in the Estimates process. If there are specific questions that are asked-j ust like the chairperson for the Arts Council or the staff from the Arts Council are not here. If, in fact, information is required, I can ask for that information and bring it back, but it is not usual for that kind of thing to happen. Ms. Cerllll : How many staff are there with MGAC? Mrs. Mltchelson: There are two positions for MGAC. Ms.

Cerllll: It would seem to me that it would help the process if we had those staff present. I would think though that the staff from the secretariat might be able to provide this kind of information. Mrs. Mltchelson: We can certainly get the staff from the secretariat to get that information pulled together and provide it. Ms. Cerllll : Back with respect to the process that is used at MGAC to allocate the funds, what provisions are in place to ensure that there is fair distribution of resources? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, each individual application is analyzed and assessed based on the communi ty support and the type of application that it is. In fact, the decisions are made, as I have indicated before, that allocation is made based on the amount of dollars that there are and trying to distribute it fairly. Not every application is for the same dollar amoun t, of course. In fact, each one is judged on its merits individually. There is discussion and allocation is made. If, in fact, a commu nity organization is unhappy with the decision that has been made, they can appeal.

They have appealed in the past, and some of those appeals have resulted in allocation of funding and some have not. * (1 530) Ms. Cerll ll: I would also, with the package of information that the minister is preparing, to include something that would describe the provisions that are in place to ensure that there is a fair distribution of resources. As well, I wonder if the minister could describe the appeal process that is followed. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Reimer): Order. If I could just remind honourable members that the member for Radisson has the floor.

If you would like to carry on a discussion, then you could possibly move to the back of the room . Mrs. Mltchelson: Every letter that goes out with a grant or a denial of grant indicates that there is an appeal pro cess on that letter. If, in fa ct, a commu nity organization feels that they want to appeal the decision, they can either appear in person or make a written submission to the council and that appeal will be heard at the next meeting. Ms. Cerllll: So the appeal goes back to the same group that was looking at the previous application? Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes. Ms. Cerl lll: What has been the basis?

I understand we had some discussion the other day about appeals that had been made to MGAC. I am wondering what were the grounds for the appeals that have been received. Mrs. Mltc hels on : Obviously, the commu nity organization would have felt that for some reason they were not given a grant, and they would have indicated that they would like to be reheard, that they had more information to provide. So that process would be followed. Mr. Acting Chairperson, I am also informed that there is allocation of bingo days, as I said, to some co mmuni ty organ izat ions.

One com mu ni ty organization indicated initially that in fact they felt they could get enough volunteers to run a bingo evening. So they were given some bingo days and then I guess after assessment of that, they indicated that they probably could not find the volunteer support to run a bingo. So they came back to MGAC and asked, in fact, whether instead of bingo days they could have just a straight grant. That was heard and that decision was overturned. They were given a grant.

1855 LEGISL AT IVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA May 9, 199 1 Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I think if we had the list of grants that have been allocated and a report which I will be pleased to get, but if we had of had that before the Estimates process, I think we would have seen that there are some commun ity organizations that have had a drastic reduction in the grants that they have received.

I think that just the fact that we do not have that information-we have been asking for it for days-is an indication of how this mul ticultural grants process is being contr oll ed, of how it is no lo nger accountable to the com mu nity. There is no accountability to anyone but the minister. I know that there are community groups that are raising issue with that. I find it surprising that this government, which always claims that they are open government, will not release this report, which used to be released annually to the critics or to the public.

When we called for the report, we were referred to the minister's office. This is not an example of open government. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, if I can just indicate that the yearly grant allocations are prepared at the close-off of the year end, which is on June 30, so there will be a full report for this year. I can provide last year's report to the member, but until the full year's report is done, I cannot provide that informat ion. So that information will be provided. I will get a copy of last year's grant allocations so that they can be looked at by the member and questions can be raised. Ms.

Cerllll: I guess the point is that MGAC has been functioning for three years now, and that there has not- Mrs. Mltchelson: No, no. Ms. Cerllll : -not been- well, more than one year for certain, and there has not been a report back to the community. (Mr. Deputy Chairman in the Chair) I would like to pursue the point that the minister raised with regard to bingo days. I understand that there are two opportunities for communi ty groups to receive fundraising opportunities. One is the bingo days and the other is a straight grant.

Can the minister explain the difference in how decisions are made of which one a group will get? Mrs. Mltchel son: As I indicated earlier, there is so much grant money to go around and there are so many bingo days to go around. I think the communi ties are asked through the application process whether in fact they would accept bingo da ys or whether they want a straigh t gr ant allocation. So they are given that option to indicate. If, in fact, they determine that they feel they can get the volunteer component pulled together to run a bingo, then in fact they might possibly receive a bingo day.

If they indicate that they do not want bingo days, they are never forced to take bingo days. Ms. Cerllll: So I am still not clear. How is the decision made? There is one application process, and it is up to the committee to decide if it is-- Mrs. Mltchelson: It is up to the commu nity, on the application form, to indicate whether they want straight grant allocation or whether in fact they would consider bingo days. If they say no, they do not want bingo days, we do not force them to take bingo days. We look at a direct grant allocation. Ms.

Cerllll: What is the difference in the amount of money that can be allocated between a bingo and a grant? Mrs. Mltchelson: We can never guarantee what the exact dollar amount will be generated through a bingo day, but we look at an average bingo evening of being about $2,500. It might be more or it might be less. It depends on the turnout at the bingo event that evening. Ms. Cerllll: Is there a regulation of how many bingo days an organization gets, or are they given one time and then they have to reapply? How does that work? Mrs. Mltchelson: There is no set numb er.

I suppose it depends on the size of grant they are asking for, whether they do want to work bingos or not. They may be given anywhere from one to five bingo days to work. Ms. Cerllll: What is the maximum amount that they can get if it is a grant that they are asking for? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, there is no maximum. It is up to 50 percent of the eligible expenditures. Ms. Cerllll: It can be 50 percent of any size project or activity? Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes. Ms.

Cerllll: I guess what I am trying to get a clear idea of is if there is a difference, first of all, between the amount of money granted to an organization if

May 9, 199 1 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 1856 they are getting straight grants, as opposed to the amount that they are receiving if they are receiving bingos. I know what it is like to work bingos. I bet that a lot of the commu nity groups are not that thrilled with working bingos. It is a lot of work and often not that pleasant. So I am trying to get an idea of the split then between organizations, as well, if there are certain organizations that seem to be receiving grants more frequently or if there is a mix between one-som etimes they receive a grant and sometimes they receive bingos. Mrs.

Mltchelson : As I indicated before, if the application form thatthey send in indicates that they will take a grant or bingo days and it does not matter to them, then they are the commu nities or the organizations that are considered for bingo days. If they indicate they do not want to do bingo days, then we just look at a grant allocation, or you can get both. Ms. Cerllll : With the information that the minister is going to provide, will it indicate which commun ities are doing bingos and which are not? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, we can indicate what communi ties do get bingo days, but we cannot tell you the exact dollar figure that they made. That information would come from Lotteries. * (1 540) Ms. Cerllll : Is there a penalty for commun ity groups or have there been any problems with commu nity groups that are working bingos with having the number of volunteers required? Mrs. Mltchelson : I am informed it has happened occasionally, but not that often. Ms. Cerl lll: What happens to the com muni ty organizations that do not have the volunteers required for operating their bingo? Mrs. Mltchelson : Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, that is done by Lotteries, because Lotteries allocates the number of bingo days-so many are allocated to MGAC, some are allocated to the Arts Council. The Sports Federation has some bingo days, and they allocate them to the comm unity organizations that they serve or represent. Any com mu nity organ ization, whether it be sports, arts, mul ticultural, if in fact they do not have the volunteers, the bingo night still runs, but the commu nity organization does not get the funds from that bingo day and the Lotteries Foundation sits down and tries to work with them. That happens throughout.

Those are the rules and regulations of bingo days. Ms. Cerll ll: Is MGAC involved in negotiating on behalf of or mediating or advocating on behalf of the groups with the Lotteries Foundation when there are disputes about bingos? Mrs. Mltchelson: From time to time, my office gets calls from all different organizations, as I said, whether they be arts or sports or whatever, if in fact they have not had the right number of volunteers. Those are the rules that are set down. As I indicated, nobody has to accept bingo days if, in fact, they indicate on their application that they do not want bingo days.

By indicating that they will accept a bingo day, they are making, in essence, a commitment to generating the volunteers within the communi ty. I know that, in some circumstances, there might be an evening or there might be some unusual circumstances that does prevent that. Part of the responsibility of accepting a bingo day throughout the commun ity is to generate the volunteer enthusiasm to go and work that bingo evening to receive the revenues. Ms.

Cerllll : I guess the point that I would like to make from all of this is that often what happens is it is the smaller community groups, the ones that are possibly less organized, that have difficulty in meeting the rules for the bingo. The question I had asked earlier is, what are the consequences to these groups if they miss their bingo? Mrs. Mltchelson: As I have indicated, if they do not have enough volunteers, they do not generate the revenue. They do not get the revenue of that bingo evening. Those are Lotteries Foundation rules.

I have indicated that the first appeal that ever came to MGAC was a community who had said on their application that they would accept bingo days. The committee made the determination that they would allocate them a bingo day. They appealed back to MGAC, because they said, on second thought, we do not believe that we can find the volunteers to run the bingo. So, in fact, MGAC then gave them a direct grant rather than having them have an unsuccessful bingo event and not generate any revenue. Ms.

Cerllll: Is there any effort by MGAC to try and co-ordina te groups that are having problems, needing bingos to- who, if not MGAC? Is that

1857 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 9, 199 1 happening with smaller communi ty organizations that are having problems getting together for the bingos? Mr. Deputy Chairman: I am going to have to call you to order here a little bit. We are dealing with the Multicultural Grants Advisory Council, and I do believe that the bingo days fall in more under the Lotteries programming. Mrs. Mltchelson : No, it is in order under- Mr. Deputy Chairman: I will decide if it is in order. Mrs. Mltchelson : Yes, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, in fact I have indicated clearly that if a commun ity organization does not feel that they can generate the volunteer component in their communi ty to run a bingo day, they say on their application, we do not want bingo days. We do not force them to take a bingo day. So I think a commu nity is well informed when they indicate they will take a bingo day.

In instances where they have second thoughts and they do not want bingo days, MGAC has listened to their appeal and has indicated to them, well, no, we will give the bingo day to someone else that might want it and feel that they can find the commu nity support, and we will give you a grant instead of a bingo day. Ms. Cerllll : This will be my last point on this issue, I think, but the point that I am making is that for the smaller organizations, they require the services of MIC which had that co-ordinating function.

This points to another reason why it was important to have both the commu nity liaison fu nction of M IC and the granting function together, that a lot of these kind of issues of co-ord inating for bingos or co-ordinating for workshops could be done. I hope that the minister would take that into consideration.

I hope that there will be some thought that often what will happen with the structure that exists is that the comm unity groups that are well organized and larger and established will be the ones that will receive the grants and will be able to follow through with putting in the applications, and that the services of MIC are very valuable to the commu nity. Maybe to finish off, I will ask if the minister will make a commitment to looking at how the granting functions of her department and the commun ity co-ordination functions of her department can be better co-ordinated. Mrs. Mltchelson : Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, we do have a Multicultural Secretariat now in place that will be co-ordinating intergovernmentally. We have an advisory body to government, which is a corn munity advisory body elected by their commun ities through the Manitoba lntercultural Council.

As a result of their experience in distributing grants to the commu nity, and as a result of them being elected mem bers to represent their commu nity, I am sure that if someone within their communi ty and within the organizations that they serve as the elected member asked them, as the elected representative, where they might go to obtain a grant they would, I am sur e-I have every confidence that they would direct them to the Multicultural Grants Advisory Council which could, in fact, deal with their grant request. We, as a government, have made a decision. I know that we could go on for hours.

I know that the Liberal Party and the New Democratic Party do not believe we have made the right decision, but we will agree to disagree on that. We believe that the money through MGAC is being distributed to the communi ties in a fair way. As I have said in the past and I will say again, it will be the commu nity who ultimately makes that decision, and they will base their decision on what political party they vote for in the future based on all of the things that either the government or the opposition, they believe, can do for them. We believe that we are moving in the proper direction.

I guess it will be up to the commu nity to determine that, but we are going to continue along with the Multicultural Grants Council. I know the opposition will continue to oppose our decision to set up the grants council, and that is what the Estimates process is all about, actually, for you to bring forward your concerns and for us to explain why we have moved in this direction. I believe I have explained fairly clearly, and I do want to indicate that our decision has been made. We can still debate it. That is the prerogative of both sides, to debate and to discuss the issues.

I just believe that the 237 organizations last year that received funding were treated in a very responsible manner by the Multicultural Grants Council and, as I said, we as a government have made a decision. We are going to continue to fund the multicultural community through this mechanism.

May 9, 199 1 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 1858 Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I hope the minister is not misunderstanding why we are raising these issues. The purpose is to show that the commu nities, to some extent, are more confused by the way that functions have been separated. Now the minister is saying that when community organizations want to apply for a grant they also have to go to a third body, which is the Multicultural Secretariat. All of these things were previously co-ordinated under MIC, and I think the commu nity groups were starting to become very familiar with the process.

I think, for political reasons, this government has decided to dismantle that process and create their own. One of the problems we see with that is these groups are no longer arm's length. They are under the direct control of the minister, and I think there are a lot of communi ty groups that see a lot of problems with that. * (1 550) Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if I just might comment on that, because it must have been for political reasons that the NDP, when they were in government, set up a task force at the cost of $1 00,000 to look at how the mul ticultural groups should be funded.

If, in fact, that admin istration was extremely happy with the way the Manitoba lntercultural Council was granting that money, then they would not have set up a task force and mandated them to take a look at the Man itoba ln tercu ltural Council and to recommend something to the NDP administration on how that was working. There would be no reason to set up a task force and to spend $1 00,000 that could ha ve gone out to commu ni ty organizations for very worthwhile projects to second-guess what the Manitoba lntercultural Council is doing.

I know that the member for Radisson was not a part of that government and that decision-making process at that time, but I cannot help but believe that there might have been political reasons for setting up that task force. Ms. Cerllll: I promise this will be my last point. If we are going to talk about unnecessary task forces, I look forward to the minister describing what the mu lticultural task force that she is proposing in this Estimates book and with the white paper to develop a mu lticultural strategy, why that is necessary at this time when we have had MIC and their racism report.

I think this minister has created a lot of money into bureaucracy that could have gone into the commu nity far more than the previous government. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chair person, if I could just comment, there is no new task force. What in fact we have committed to the community is to establish a multicultural act. That is exactly what is going to be done through the process of the white paper and a consultation with the community. I would hope that both opposition parties would support the introduction of a multicultur al act for the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Lamoureux : Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I have a number of questions. First of all, our overworked research department was quick to get me a copy of the '87-88 Annual Report of MIC, and I wanted to report to the mi nister in fact what they had distributed out in that year. At that time it was $1 ,090,000- Mr. Deputy Chairman: Order, please. I would like to remind the honourable member, we are dealing with the Multicultural Grants Advisory Council. If you want to discuss MIC we will discuss it under MIC at that time. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, what I am referring to are the grants, and the grants that have been going out to the multicultural community. The grants that have gone out to the multicultural com mu nity in the last number of years have decreased under this administration. Now, the minister has said that they have not decreased under this administration. I would like her to be able to tell me what grants MGAC gave out in their first year that would have put them ahead of the '87-88 Annual Report of MIC of $1 ,090,000.

If she is able to do that-and I do not think she will be able do that-but if she is able to do that then to explain to me how it is or what associations from MGAC received a total of over $1 .29 million. Mrs. Mltchelson: I know the member is going back to annual repor ts when we were not even government.

I would hope he would allow me the opportunity to pull together all of the information that I can and present it to him in a manner whereby he can understand that in fact there has been an increase in funding, an increase in the Lotteries allocation to the multicultural community through grants over the last two years. Mr. Lamou reux: We are talking about two organizations, one, MIC; one, MGAC.

1859 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 9, 199 1 An Honourable Member: You cannot compare them. Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, you can compare them. You can compare them quite well. In '87-88 they spent $1,090,000 on the enha ncement of multiculturalism in the province of Manitoba. In '88-89 they spent $1.29 6 mil lion. Un der her Estimates, since it has been changed over to MGAC, they spent $1,009,000. So her previous arguments of the reserve fund, and if we take a look at the history of MIC, you will see that the grants were increasing under the former administration.

This administration cut the grants to the multicultural commu nity, and if the min ister-she nods her head no, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. I could read into the record each contribution that MIC made out. You will find that the total, at least-unless the annual report is wrong or I am reading it wrong-com es out to $1.296 million. I am wondering if she could do the same thing for MGAC which will show it over $1.296 million. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will get that information all pulled together.

I cannot sit here and compare until I have the financial people do an analysis and bring that forward so that it is clearly understandable to the opposition. All I know is that allocations from the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation to MIC were less than what Lotteries allo cations to MGAC are. Lotteries allocations, dollars from the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation to the Manitoba lntercultural Council, were less than what Lotteries allocations to MGAC are. We can sit here and we can argue about this back and forth, and the member for ln kster can say there was a cut, and I can say no, there was not.

He has figures in front of him that he believes can indicate there was a cut, and what I am saying is I can pull together all of the information going back to the grants that were provided from the Manitoba lntercultural Council that will indicate that, in fact, there has been an increase. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister talks about revenue coming in as opposed to actual dollars being spent in the multicultural commu nity, and that is how she is trying to justify what is, in fact, a cut of money from MGAC. I will wait and hopefully I will not have to wait too long-- Mrs.

Mltchelson: I cannot get that before five o'clock this afternoon, but I will indicate that even if we have moved on to another line, I will make the commitment that I will read into the record and provide copies even if we are on another area. I would even give leave at that point in time to come back and discuss it further. Mr. Lamoureux: With that type of an offer, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think it is safe for me to say okay, I will wait for it, and we will have the discussion. We will have to defer the discussion of the cuts until she has it before us.

There were 237 organizations that received the funds last year. Can she give me, in terms of percentages, when those grants were approved? What was the percentage of the grants that were approved in what time period ? Does MGAC approve 25 percent of them by such and such date, another 25 percent, or when are the grants approved? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, there are three grant allocation times, or three allocations throughout the year- April, August and December. There would be a greater portion of grants go out earlier in the year.

There would be mor e applications at the beginning of the year and probably a greater percentage of allocations, and I am going to provide that list. So you can see-b ut I am told probably a greater portion of the money is approved at the April allocation than at the other two. * (1 600) Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, can the minister tell me if the same timetable was applicable to MIC? Mrs. Mltchelson : Mr. Deputy Cha irperson, I cannot know, and I think that kind of information would be readily available from the Manitoba lntercultural Council.

I think they could indicate to you how many grant allocations they had per year and at what point in time they made decisions on those allocations, what percentages. Mr. Lamoureux: Can the minister tell me what percentage of the letters of approval would have been out for the different mul ticultural organizations by the August distribution? Was it 50 percent, 60 percent, 95 percent? Mrs. Mltchelson: I will get that information and provide it. Mr.Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I wanted to move on to something that is probably a bit

May 9, 199 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 1860 sensitive, but I feel somewhat obligated to ask this line of questions. There was a time period when the chairperson of MGAC-or let us get a better idea- when did the chairperson of MGAC, the first chairperson, resign? Mrs. Mltchelson : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, there was an Order-in-Council around October 30 of 19 90, when the form er chair of MGAC was app ointed as executiv e di rector of the Multiculturalism Secretariat. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I will leave the Multicultural Secretariat's position alone for now and we will go into debate on that when we get to that line. I did want to ask the minister: Does the government have any polic y that once appointments that government has made-and I do understand that the chairperson at the time was a candidate for the party-is there any policy on whether or not a candi date or someone who becomes a candidate for the government or for a political party that they have to resign the position? Mrs.

Mltchelson: No, people do not have to resign their positions when they run for political office, and I do not think-I think if you ask the question of the former government, there were probably people that were on different boards that ran for political office. I do not believe they would have resigned. There is not a policy that there has to be a resignation but, in fact, there were no allocation meetings during the period of time, during the election campaign, so there were no decisions that were made at that point in time. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Deputy Chair person, the minister previously had told me that the allocations were made in April and August. They are not made in August? Mrs. Mltchelson : Those were the deadlines for applica tions to be in-in Apri l, Augus t and December. The grant

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-2-40
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Volume / chapter	35th 2nd hansardpdf 40.pdf
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