----------- VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSF. OF ASSF:HBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. TUESDAY, ~~y 17, 1983 NO. 42 .

Hay 17, 1983 Tape No. 2213 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair MR. SPEAKER: (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. WINDSOR: MR. SPEAK .ER: STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS Mr. Speaker, The hon. th .e M:i,n.i,.ster of MJ "'1. Development. MR. WINDSOR; Mr. Speaker, it is my pleqsure to inform the House that as of today, Ma,y 17, the tou:r:i,st information centres administered by the Department of Development's tourism branch are openeq to the publi.c across this Province. For the information of the House, these centres are located at Whitbourne, Clarenville, Notre Dame Junction, Deer Lake and Port aux Basques.

The Department of Development also operates a touri.st information office in North Sydney, NO ~ a Scoti,q, Centres will be opened to the touring public for approximately six days at short staff, but all staff will be in place for the May 23 hol,i,d,ay, Centres will then remain open until September 30 of thi,s year with the exception of the one at Port aux Basques, which will be opened until October 31.

Another programme of the Department of Development will commence on June 1 ,wh .en tourist information officers begin their duti,es on Gulf ferries that are now operating and on other ferri,es as they are put into service, I would aqvise the House that this service will continue until August 31, 1983. MR,, NEARY: Mr. Speake:t'. MR:. SPEAKER: The hon, the Leader of the Opposition, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we welcome the fact 4723

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2213 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: that the parks will be open in time for the May 24 weekend which, as hon. members know, is really the first long weekend that people in this Province can - MR. WINDSOR: . MR. NEARY: opened. MR. WINDSOR: Not the parks, the chalets. - the chalets, rather, will be There is a difference. MR. NEARY: Yes, there is a difference. I notice the one in Port aux Basques is included in the group. There is not much else we can say about it, Mr. Speaker. If that is all the news that the administration has to announce today. MR. TULK: Is that the good news for today? MR.

NEARY: Is that the good news for today, Mr. Speaker? I do not know if it is going to help the students or the unemployed in the Province, Mr. Speaker. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Avlward) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, yesterday we were severely scolded by the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall), the Government House Leader, for the way,- we ask questions in this House. This is the people's House. I suppose we have a right to ask questions, unless the hon. gentleman would like for us to go down in the taverns and ask the questions. Mr.

Speaker, we are not getting very satisfactory answers, I might say, from han. gentlemen there opposite. Yesterday I dealt with the Buchans Task Force. Today I am going to deal with the report of the Task Force on the Baie Verte Peninsula. 4724

May 17, 1983 Tape 2214 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: Perhaps to the government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) to start out, Mr. Speaker, I will put a very simple question • I am sure he will understand the question. I think the question will be in order. I do not need to be scolded. The hon. gentleman does not have to get nasty about it or rude. All the hon. gentleman has to do is to tell the House how many of the fifty recommendations made by the Baie Verte Peninsula Task Force have been implemented to date? MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. President of · the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I did not scold the hon. gentlemen opposite for the way that they asked questions. I scolded the hon. gentlemen there opposite for the way their Leader (Mr. Neary) asked questions. I feel somewhat in the same frame of mind as the young people at the convention in Gander felt that there should be a leadership convention. Now, Mr. Speaker, with respect to that specific question that the hon. gentleman asked 1 .. - - rre let rre say this, that the Task Force was cornnissiorEd by this goverment and the Task Force's recommendations have been taken very seriously by this government.

And what we are endeavouring to do is to see that every recommendation which has practical application and can in fact be implemented,is in fact being implemented. And if the hon. gentleman has not noted the efforts that we have made on the Baie Verte Peninsula, .as well as over the rest of Newfoundland, but with respect to the Baie Verte Peninsula, I mean,he has a shining example of the way in --- - - --- which, through the leadership of the member for Baie Verte White Bay (Mr. Rideout) and the government, we dealt with the mine closure out there in the Baie Verte area. 4725

May 17, 1983 Tape 2214 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: He should have an 1_mderstanding as well with respect to the developmentand the way in which we are carrying on the construction of the Cat Arm project 1 he should have an idea of what this government's policies are when he reviews our fisheries policy as to what we are trying to do for the Baie Verte Peninsula as well as other places. He should have an idea,if he looks at the way in which the forestry policy of this Province has been conducted, as to what we are doing. Mr.

Speaker, we are doing every thing we can for the Baie Verte Peninsula as well as for all parts of this Province to see that it is developed and to see that there is some sensible way for resource development in this Province. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary. MR. NEARY: I just have to say for the edification of the hon. gentleman, that w::en we do decise to have a leadership convention 1we will not do a repeat of what the Tories did in Winnipeg, Mr. Speaker, we act more statesmanlike than that. MR.

HODDER: We do not wash our dirty linen out in public , Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: We do not wash our dirty linen out in public, Mr. S~eaker. I wonder i.f the hon. gentleman could be a little more speci~ic and tell the House what projects his ad:ninistration consider to be of a practical nature that can be implemented( Would the hon. gentleman give me an example of one or two projects 1 out of the fifty recommendations that were made by the Baie Verte Penin~ula Task Forcer that are actively being pursued by the administration? 4726

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2215 so - l MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I am obviously not going to answer general questions in specific terms with . relation to fifty specific recommendations. If the hon. gentleman wants to pose specific questions to me about this or about any other matter, if I can answer I will, if I cannot not I will take notice of them, and if I cannot answer immediately -and one of the other hon. ministers can, I am sure they would be quite happy to respond to him . MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: .. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, obviously the han. gentleman probably has never read the report. I doubt very much if the hon. gentleman can tell this House now - there are fifty recommendations - I am asking the hon. gentleman to get up and tell the House MR. MARSHALL: Twenty questions. MR. NEARY: - and just give me one example I will be easy on the hon. gentleman - give me one recommendation • ....... MR. WINDSOR: That is not a question- MR. NEARY: It is a question. Can the hon. gentleman tell the House one of the fifty recommendations made by the Task Force? MR.

MARSHALL: This is examination time, - -~- .... ____ \..._ .. is it? --- - .. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker. I asked the hon. President of the Council, the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall). MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, it is entirely within the right of the hon. Government House Leader to refer a question to any other minister, if it addresses an issue for which the minister has responsibility 4727

May 17, 1983 MR. NEARY: SOME HON . MEMBERS : MR. SPE~ER (Aylward) : MR. WINDSOR: Tape No. 2215 No, no. Oh, oh~ Order, please! SD - 2 The hon. gentlemen obviously does not want the information, Mr. Speaker, any more than they did in my Estimates. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, we just want to show the House and show the people of this Province just how little they know about what is going on. I will raise one myself. What about the research into the production of seal meat?

That was to be vigorously pursued by a high-powered salesman to be engaged by the provincial government to establish an international market for seal meat. Could the hon. gentleman tell the House if that was done? MR. SPEAKER: The han. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, that is under consideration and has been pursued by the Department of Fisheries and by the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan!. As a matter of fact, the hon. gentleman knows full well that the Minister of Fisheries and the Department of Development have made statements with respect to that from time to time.

Look, we are doing everything we possibly can with respect to the fostering of the sealing industry in this Province for the processing of seal meat and the enhancement of markets for the seal fishery. The hon. gentleman knows that full well. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: of the Opposition. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. Leader MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, obviously the hon. gentleman,like hi~ -coiiea~e ~ Mi~ister 4728

May 171 ) 983 Tape No. 22+5 so - 3 MR . NE ARY: of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) did yesterday, is just running a gigantic bluff. The actual fact of the matter is that it is confirming, Mr. Speaker, what we thought all along; that they have not done anything with this report or these recommendations. · What about recommendation Number 3(1~, that the government finance indepth research QY consultants into both the potential and the means 4729

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2216 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: . of implementing the potential tourist industry on the Baie Verte Peninsula? Could the hon. gentleman tell us what is being done about that recommendation? MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. MARSHALL: The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, we are doing everything we possibly can with respect to the development of tourism in this Province. It is under the aegis right now of the very energetic minister who has done a lot with respect to tourism in this Province, as well as tourism on the Baie Verte Peninsula.

I think the unfortunate part about all of this today is it just goes to shmV" that the hon. gentleman is smarting over the fact that he made certain remarks yesterday with respect to the offshore that were out of order, that he should not have made, and I made a certain comment on radio stations with respect to it and it has obviously resulted in an avalanche of abusive telephone calls coming to the han. gentieman telling him to act like a Newfoundlander rather than a Liberal 1 and he is trying to vent his spleen during the Question Period.

You know,we have done all that we possibly can with respect to tourism on the Baie Verte Peninsula 1as elsewhere; we will continue to do so. If the hon. gentleman has any questions concerning any specific programmes, I suggest if he really wants to find out information with respect to :tthe ongoing specifics of any programme 1 that he direct them to the minister responsible who very competently acquits his responsibilities in this area, the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor). SOME !ION. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: a supplementary question. MR. NEARY: The hon. Leader of the Opposition, Mr.

Speaker, any phone calls that 4730

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2216 NM - 2 MR. NEARY.: I had were very complimentary phone calls, by the way, people calling me rem lnding me that there are fort y-four members sitting on that side of the House, elected in a one-issue election and that was to negotiate an offshore agreement. And they are sitting back there now and yesterday it was confirmed - MR. WINDSOR: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : !1R. NEARY: Question. Order, please! - the point that was made yesterday is that this administration, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Question, question.

Order, please! - does not have a handle on what is going on. That is the significant point that was made yesterday. And all the calls, and I do not think I had any more than a half a dozen, were all complimentary. Now, Mr. ~peaker, the hon. gentleman invites ;me to be a li.ttle more specific on projects. Well, what about recommendation 3(2) in that report, that the feasability of expanding Flat Water Pond Provincial Park be investigated? What is being done about that recommendation, if anything? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: If ·the han, gentleman wants to, there is a procedure whereby if he wants to put real, specific questions that require answers :i,n detail, ail he has to do is put them on the Order Paper. He can either do one or two things, Mr. Speaker: He can put them on the Order Paper if he wishes to; he can d;irect them to the Il(:i,nister responsible if he really wants an answer; and, if he is dissatisfied with any of the answers, he can put them on the Late Show·, which has not been used for th.e past s:i,x weeks, MR, SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. 4731

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2216 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, surely these matters must be discussed in Cabinet and policy decisions must be made on this very important report of the Baie Verte Peninsula Task Force. I do not care who answers the question. 47J2

May 17,1983 Tape No. 2217 ah-1 MR.NEARY: Ttltn.t about Flat T·Jater PonQ. J?rovincial park? What action is being taken on that recommendation? MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): The han. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, just to show how badly the han. gentleman opposite is in need of information , he should know that provinciaL parks come under the aegis of my colleague,the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr.Simrns). He does not even know that. He does not know who is responsible for what.

He does not know who is minister for what • He did not know who is responsible for oil and gas a couple of months ago. He does not know who is responsible for Tourism,and now he does not even know who is responsible for parks. What a terrible display, Mr. Speaker, byt the Leader of the Opposition. The fact of the matter is that Flatwater Park, as well as all other parks in this Province,do come under my colleague,who is doing everything possible to expand these parks. And,in fact, I think, some increased effort will be put into provincial parks ·aver the next number of years as funds permit.

Obviousl y he is operating under that restriction. The han. gentleman can refer that question to my colleague at a later date perhaps. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, let it be recorded that the han. Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) leaped into the fray there a few moments ago and told us that we were afraid to ask him questions about these matters because we might get the information. So I put the question to the han. gentleman and what was the answer I got? It does not come under him,it comes under his colleague.

So I have to go back again to the President of the Council, 47J3

May 17,1983 Tape No. 2217 ah-2 MR.NEARY: the acting Premier,_ Mr. Speaker, because I am sure if ministers attend the Cabinet meetings that these matters must have come up for discussion in Cabinet, Mr. Speaker. MR. TULK: Tell them to operate as a team over there. MR.NEARY: Yes, Tflhere is the team work? Does the right hand know what the left hand is doing? What about a provincial park or a privately subsidized park that was ·to be situated at the Eastern end of the Baie· Verte Peninsula? The Task Force noted that by governmental and local initiative there can be a viable tourist industry in that area.

Now what about that privately subsidized park? Has any action been taken on that,could the hon. gentleman tell us? MR.SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr. Speaker, what an exercise for the Question Period. You can drag out all sorts of questions from various reports such as the han. gentleman is doing now and ask specific questions such as he is asking now. I would suggest 1 if the hon. gentleman wants any specific respons~ he can place it on the Order Paper.

I can only say that the government is doing everything it possibly can in this Province,. on the Baie Verte peninsula and elsewhere, 4734

May 17, 1983 Tape 2218 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: to develop the Province in the best manner possible, including the provision of a park of the nature that the hon. gentleman referred to, and we shall continue to do so,but we are being hampered, Mr. Speaker, in our efforts to develop this Province because of a lack of financial resources. We have abundant resources but the returns from these resources hampers us. So as soon as we get enough funds to be able to respond to the recommendations in that report, as well as the recommendations in many other reports, we will respond to them.

Now, in the meantime, I suggest that the han. gentleman might like to get along to other questions of import to the Province such as the prime one with respect to the way in which we can enhance our resource development and get the optimum return to the people, which would bring about the very things to which he is addressing his question. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary question. MR.

NEARY: Obviously, not only does their right hand not know what their left hand is doing,but I do not think their right hand knows what their right hand is doing over there. I hope that the Ocean Ranger Commission of Inquiry report does not meet the same fate as the Buchans Task Force report and the one we are discussing now. Mr. Speaker, what could be more important, for instance, for this Province and the Baie Verte Peninsula than reforestation?

And one of the main recommen­ dations of the Task FJrce had to do with an intensive reforestation programme being implemented by the government on the Baie Verte Peninsula. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Task Force noted - and I am glad the hon. gentleman mentioned the 47:J5

May 17, 1983 Tape 2218 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: forest industry because now we are putt1ng the ball right back in his ball park again - that so little has been done to replenish the forests that the Task Force were very concerned about this. 'There are no signs of any attempts at reforestation on the Baie Verte Peninsula,' they said, 'although spruce buds are being taken from the Peninsula for reforestation elsewhere. Some of our informants believe that within ten years the supply of timber will be gone.' Now, that is a pretty critical matter, Mr. Speaker, and the hon. gentleman raised it himself.

And what is being done about this recommendation that an intensive reforestation programme be implemented by the government on the Baie Verte Peninsula? HR. SPEAKER (Avlward) HR. MARSHALL: The hon. the Presiqent of the Council. Now, Mr. Speaker, as anybody who is so close to his friends in Ottawa should know, it is the hon. gentleman ~·Tho should kno~T what has happened in the reforesta--·· tion programme. The reforestation programme was a programme that had been proposed by this administration and the previous administration as a means of regenerating our natural resources 47J6

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2219 MJ - 1 MR . MARSHALL: in this Province. It had been accepted and it was a very beneficial programme for about two or three years. After two or three years - four or _ five years at the very most- the programme in effect was cancelled so that we did not have the funds available in order to be able to do the necessary reforestation that our £crests need. Apparently, from the perspective of 1,700 miles away, just as they cannot see ice when ice conditions occur, so they expect trees to grow to their full length and full maturit y in five years.

That not only does not ha?pen anywhere in Canada, Mr. Speaker, it does not happen here.

The han. gentleman has the consummate gall to get up in this House and ask about reforestation programmes when at the same time he knows full well that we had a very imaginative programme for the reforestation of this Province under DRFF. , a very imaginative programme which both the federal and provincial governments had co-operated on, which had been a great contribution to this Province and one that we had wished would continue on year after year 1 but these wishes are in vain 1 as the han. gentleman knows,and the reason why we are not doing reforestation to the extent that we would like is because of the cutoff of this particular programme through no fault of ours.

So, yes, Mr. Speaker, we agree wholeheartedly with that recommendation as well as many recommendations of others,but in order to realize and to carry them out we have to get money, and in order to get money, Mr. Speaker, there are only two sources, from the people of the Province or from their resources. The people of the Province are already overtaxed as it presently exists and the only other place we can get money from is our resources. And can you imagine, Mr. Speaker, anybody with the consummate gall of the hon. member there opposite to get up and ask 47J7

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2219 MJ - 2 MR. MARSHALL: us what we are doing in those circumstances when he is supporting the very people who are trying to deprive us from a just return from the resources \vhich we brought into Confederation with us. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The han. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary. MR.

NEARY: The hon. gentleman really ~ut his foot in it this time,because recommendation }~mber 5 of the Task Force has to do with the setting up of a mine and a smelter on the Baie Verte Peninsula for the realization of silicon, to set up a silicon industry in La Scie. Now there is an opportunity for the government without bringing in national or international companies, and the Premier could show that he is not dicating the terms to any private company; the government can undertake to set up this mine and this smelter down there. There is a large deposit of silica there proven in the ground, Mr. Speaker.

The deposit is owned by the Crown. If the hon. gentlemen want revenue,why did they not act on recommendation Number 5, Mr. Speaker. We are told there aEe9DO,OOO tons of silcon that 47JB

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2220 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: can be extracted on the Baie Verte Peninsula And they are looking for revenue~ I bet you, Mr. Speaker, up to this very moment they did not even know that recommendation was in the Baie Verte Peninsula Task Force Report. They did not know. They should do their homework, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: They come into this House ill- prepared, they are unable to answer questions and then they get up and sulk in a rude and nasty - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The time for Question Period is for asking questions and receiving information. I would ask the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) to put his question to the hon. minister. MR. NEARY: What about this silicon ' industry where the government can get new revenue and new dollars can be generated? What are they doing about it? Or is the hon. gentleman ill-prepared, has not done his . - -· -- --· . -- homework, and the first time he heard of this proposal is now when I mentioned it in this House? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I am not the first Bill I know of in living memory to speak about silica. But, Mr. Speaker, the silica industry in LaScie; look the fact of the matter is there are problems at the present time with respect to markets, Once again it comes down to -- --- ... -' .. the hon. gentleman living in a airy-fairy world. He must realize in order to realize any kind of development there has to be capital, there has to be either public or private capital,and public or private capital depends upon the markets, public or private capital depends upon the attractiveness of the investment as it presently exists. 4739

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2220 so - 2 MR. MARSHALL: There is no way in which this government will not exert every possible effort to develop every possible resource,including the silicon industry in La Scie, but the fact of the matter is that world conditions are such th~t it is not immediately feasible. That will not stop us from operating and seeing what we can possibly do to bring it about, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! Before I recognize the han. member 1 I wonder if he will permit me to welcome to our public galleries twelve students and two teachers-Mrs. Warren and Mr.

Parsons - from the Curling Junior High School in the districts of Bay of Islands and Humber West. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Environment (Mr. Andrews). I understand the minister is out in the lobby If someone would tell him to come in, I have a question for him. I am satisfied to wait. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Environmentwas just out in the common room or out in the hallway,so I am satisfied to wait and pose my question to the Minister of Environment. MR. DINN: while you are waiting? MR.

WARREN: Minister of Environment. MR. DINN: 4740 Can you not think of another question No, I have a question for the Okay.

May 17, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : a question? MR. DINN: han. member to ask. MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. WARREN: Tape No. 2221 PK - 1 Order, please! Does the han. member have I will write one down for the Thank you. Order, please! Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Environment (Mr. Andrews). During this time of year most town councils are planning a clean-up programme. I understand the minister made a statement recently saying that he hoped that most councils would try to clean things up, especially for the 400 anniversary.

I am just wondering does the minister this year have on hand a larger supply of plastic garbage bags for the various councils throughout the Province than he had last year? MR. WINDSOR: MR. WARREN: communities. That is a deep question. It is important for the MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Environment. MR. ANDREWS: Thank you very -much, Mr. Speaker. I do not know horn many months and weeks we have been in the House now, but this is the first Oral Question I have had, and certainly a very serious one.

We have about the same number of garbage bags that we had last year, but we do not give them to town councils or municipal governments. Those garbage bags are for service .clubs, service· groups and the like. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary for the minister. Mr. Speaker, the minister said that garbage bags are given to service groups and organizations. In the 47~1 (' . ~ -~

Hay 17, 1983 Tape No . 2221 PK - 2 MR. WARREN: this Province - MR. MARSHALL: Mr • Speaker . . MR. SPE AKER (Aylward) : President of the Council . MR . MARSHALL: real small towns throu9hout on a point of order, A point of order, the hon. I think I could have raised this with respect to the whole Question Period, but to try to get the Opposition to be an Opposition and ask question s, I refer Your Honour to Beauchesne, page 131, Paragraph 358, with respect to Oral Questio ns. "Such questions should: be asked only in respect of matters of sufficient urgency and importance as to require an immediate answer.

" Now, Mr . Speaker, we do not usually invoke this, but when we get the types of question asked by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary), and then the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr . Warren) gets up and talks about garbage bags, asking about the delivery of garbage bags: 4742

May 17, 1983 Tape 2222 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: We have, in case the hon. gentleman does not know it, an economic condition in this Province that is of vital concern to this government. We invite questions with respect to the economy of this Province and the way it is going and the matters of general importance and resource development, but surely the time in this people' ' s House should not be wasted by questions of trivia such as those asked by the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) and the Leader of the Opposition {Mr. Neary) • MR. HODDER: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Aylward): To that point of order, the hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I would submit that the question is in order. This is one of the filthiest provinces in the country. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame! Shame! MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, recently I read an editorial in one of our newspapers which suggested that the provincial government should do as they do in all the other provinces in Canada, put garbage bins along the Trans-Canada Highway for people who are camping. We have campers who are using the sides of the roads, the areas are not policed.

Anywhere you go around this Province, you do not have to walk in the woods more than a couple of feet to find mounds and piles of garbage,yet there is no enforcement or policing of it, Mr. Speaker. So I would submit it is of urgency and the member opposite is just trying to waste the Question Period. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order. It is very difficult for the Chair to judge if a matter is of sufficient urgency, as stated in Beauchesne, Paragraph 358, so I will allow the hon. member his question : · 4743

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2222 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER(Aylward) : The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: I am surprised, Mr. Speaker, that the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) does not consider matters with respect to town councils and all little communities in this Province as urgent. Every town in this Province, Mr. Speaker, needs a clean-up programme and I am hoping that the Minister of Environment (Mr. Andrews) has taken the proper step of supplyinq garbage bags to the various organizations. MR. STE~\'ART..:.... Get the man from Glad. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Order, please! MR. WARREN: My supplementary question to the minister is: Is the minister's department going to assure that his department is able t.o supply sufficient garbage bags to all organizations in the various towns throughout this Province for·their clean-up programmes? SOME BON. MEZ.ffiERS: Oh, oh! 4 7 4 If

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2223 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): The hon. Minister of the Environment. MR. ANDREWS: Mr. Chairman, I will assure the hon. member that we will try to supply as many garbage bags as possible to as many service .groups and clubs around the Province that apply and ask for them. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education.

Now that the minister has had the submission from the students at Memorial University re student aid for some time, I wonder if the minister can indicate what action she has taken to date with respect to implementation of the recommendations made by the student body at Memorial with respect to student aid? MR. SPEAKER: MS. VERGE: The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, yes,I met with representatives of the Council of the Students Union at Memorial University last Tuesday, a week ago today.

The university students earlier asked for sufficient time to prepare a brief commenting on government's proposed changes to the student aid programme. They specifically asked to have time after the finish of their final examinations . To aqcommodate that request I told them that they could have until May 9, which suited them, and on the next day, on May 10, a week before today,we had a meeting when I, along with a couple of other representatives of government, spent some two hours with a group representating the CSU at the university.

I told the students at the meeting that I would be giving copies of their brief, with their recommendations, to all the members of government, that their recommendations would be fully considered before government finalized its decisions on the changes to our student aid programme to take effect september 1, 1983, that I expected that we would be able to 4745

May 17 , 1983 Tape No . 2223 NM - 2 MS . VERGE: carry out that process within a couple of weeks,because it is important that we provide certainty as early ~as possible for students who will be applying for aid to study in the Fall . I am now part way throuah that process of consultation and perhaps another week 474 6

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2224 MJ - 1 MS.· VERGE: or two will be required before final decisions are made, at which time the decisions will be communicated to the general public as well as the CSU of Memorial University. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): The hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: I take it,then,from the minister that this is only in its very initial stages, that it has not gotten to the Cabinet yet. The minister indicated that it was passed out to members, this sort of thing, so I take it that it is in the very initial discussion period,that it has not yet reached Cabinet? MS.

VERGE~ MR. SPEA..T{ER: MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker. The hon. 'the Minister of Education. Hr. Speaker, I think as much has been done as has been physically possible in the week since the brief was submitted and was presented to me in a two hour meeting. I expect that Cabinet will make final decisions,with the benefit of the recommendations from the csu,within a couple of weeks. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Can the minister indicate what the major thrust of the recommendations were,whether it was to change the eligibility criteria or whether it was to - AN HON.

MEMBER: . \'lhy do you not read it? Go read it. MR. LUSH: I know the answers. I know the answers very well. I know what the decision is going to be. -or whether it was 4747

!ltay 17, 1983 Tape Mo. 2224 MJ - 2 MR . LUSH: particularly with respect to reducing the ceiling loan? ~as that the major thrust of the recommendations? MS . VERGE: MR. SPEAKE R (Aylward) : MS. VERGE : Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of ·Education. Hr. Speaker, as the member opposite for Terra Nova (Mr . Lush) has said himself, he has a copy of the CSU brief to government on the subject of student aid. Be can read it for himself. I think all hon. members were supp lied copies by the CSO. I do not think I am really the best person to highlight the students' submission.

Suffice it to that the CSO has •,o~ritten a comprehensive brief addressing all aspects of government's proposed changes to our student aid plan as well as other features of a student aid plan, and the CSU has commented on the gener al employment picture of this Province and has noted the difficulties 4 7 tt 8

May 17,1983 Tape No. 2225 ah-1 MR. VERGE: of graduating students finding employment in our Province. It is a wideranging document which addresses many aspects of the student aid programme. The recommendations are summarized in the brief. I do not think hon. members would want me to take the time required to read all the recommendations. MR. LUSH: "'lhat is the major thrust? MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, the CSU can tell you directly what they intend as their major thrust. What I would say is simply my

interpretation of a document which the member has and can read for himself and interpret for himself. MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! The time for Question Period has expired. MR.HODDER: MR.SPEAKER: the member for Port au Port. MR.HODDER: A point of order. A point of order. The hon. Mr. Speaker, I will not point out the fact that there are only five ministers missing today but I would like to ask the House Leader opposite about the Minister of Environment (Mr.

Andrews),who had to be called into the House, who was skulking around the precincts of the House during Question Period,and the Minister of Forestry (Mr. Power) 1 who was outside of the House all during Question Period and did not come in. Is this a new tactic by government. or is it that they get up here but they do not have the nerve to come into the House of Assembly for Question Period? MR.SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, the hon. Minister of Environment. MR.ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker, that is certainly no point of order.

I was outside of the House right here, but within the precincts of the House,doing some government business,probably on your behalf . 4749

May 17,1983 Tape No. 2225 ah-2 MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! To that point of order, I. rule there is no point of order. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: Development. MR. WINDSOR: The han.

Minister of I am pleased to table the annual report of the Harmon Corporation. · The main role of the Harmon Development Corporation has been and continues to be its commitment to encouraging the establishment and expansion of industrial enterprises within the Harmon area and its support for industrial growth in the Stephenville area in general• During 198l-82 1 the Corporation experienced the effects of the economic recession, as did other sections of the economy 1 with a number of properties vacated and company closures resulting in a number of job losses.

Despite the economic downturn, the Corporation has been actively pursuing a number of new development and promotion initiatives designed to encourage and support the location of new operations and create jobs in the area.

The most notable of these initiatives have been the Corporation's research into the feasibility of establishing an international trade zone and its subsequent realization ,, its support of Fishery Products Limited experimental stock fish processing operations which resulted in 135 jobs of five months duration, its·continuing efforts in support of a limestone mining operation for the Port au Port Peninsula which could become economically viable in light of the potential requirements for concrete structures for the offshore, its recognition of the 4750

May 17,198 3 Tape No . 2225 ah -3 MR . \VINDSOR : tourism potential Qf the area and its continuing efforts to support and promote specific tourist attractions such as the Stephenville Festival of the Arts, and its decision to renovate one of its buildi .ngs into five sections to provide incentive to very small businesses starting up. Over the past year the corporation has provided services to a large nwnber of companies requesting specific site information, research, production and market information on specific business opportunities. In the year ahead the Corporation 47J1

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2226 JV - 1 MR. WINDSOR: will continue its approach to diversify the economic base of the area with a number of small industries and will intensify its activities in promoting the international trade zone. That is the first one, Mr. Speaker. I might as well table the second one. These are the annual reports of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation for the year 1981 and '82. I am pleased to lay before the House these annual reports for these fiscal years. They are being submitted in accordance, of course, with

Section 34 of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation Act as amended. Members will,no doubt, be subjecting these reports to a thorough review; I would like to highlight just a number of the activities of the Corporation over the past two years. Consolidation of all housing bodies in the one agency known as the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation: This involved amalgamation with the St. John's Housing Corporation and dissolution of the St. John's Housing Authority.

Implementation of a provincial building lot subsidy programme for Corporation owned land developments throughout the Province has put serviced land on sale at market rates. The Corporation assumed responsibility for the development of industrial parks in which·governm~nt has a financial interest. 4752

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2226 JV - 2 MR. WINDSOR: The Corporation introduced a rural mortgage lending programme to provide financing to those individuals unable to obtain funding through conventional lenders or other sources for the purpose of building a home. Some 430 subsidized rental housing units were constructed and occupied bringing to 3800 the number presently under administration. Further development of residential land in Mount Pearl continued as 292 single fami~y building lots were placed in a sales position in Parsons Meadow,while contracts were awarded for a further 290 lots in Powers Pond.

Agreement was reached with the Federal Government on the development of an additional 443 residential building lots in this development. Industrial Park activity saw servicing commence on Phase 3 of the Donovan's Industrial Park consisting of 53.6 hectares,and on Phase l of a 36 hectare development at Country Road in Corner Brook. Work was completed on the servicing of Area 2 of the O'Leary Industrial Park consisting of some 15.6 hectares. Some 570 loans approved under the Federal/Provincial rural and remote housing programme for an expenditure in excess of $23 million.

Some 476 commitments issued under the provincial home ownership assistance program carried a dollar value in excess of $500,000. 1900 commitments delivered by the Corporation under Federal Rura], RRAP amounting to an expenditure of approximately $10 million. 585 units financed under the rent supplement program provided reduced rents for 4753

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2226 JV - 3 MR. WINDSOR: qualifying senior citizens. It is my pleasure, Mr. Speaker to table these three reports. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Any further reports? The han. the Minister of Public Works. 4754

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2227 NM ·- 1 MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I would like to tabl~ in accordance with

Section 4 of the Public Tendering - ..... Act the tenders awarded other than to the lowest bidder. I ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, in an ongoing effort to provide information to the Opposition, in spite of themselves, I want to table the answer to question number 23, a question from the han. member for Bellevue (Mr. Callano), a very important question, Mr. Speaker, asking what the earth shattering, total cost of my trip to Chicago in December was. I know that is of great urgency and public importance. MR.

HODDER: What about your trip to New York? MR. WINDSOR: I have hot been asked that question. If the han. gentleman asks me that question, I might answer it. MR. WARREN: How about your trip to the Voisey Bay fish camp? MR. WINDSOR: The total cost of the trip was $865.60, Mr. Speaker, which I think was somewhat overstated since I stopped in at a mines ministers' conference in New Brunswick along route. The other half of the question was what did I do there_ I addressed,first of all,the Chicago Rot.ary Club at their invitation, which "is - not only one of the largest clubs in the world, Mr.

Speake -r, I think tnere are something in the order of the 2200 in the Club - MR. HODDER: You are getting some arrogant now when you are answering questions about your travelling. MR. WINDSOR: - but it also is the parent club. Chicago is Rotary One, it is the parent club of Rotary Clubs around the world and it was certainly an honour and a pleasure for me to have that opportunity to address some 300 businessmen. 4755

May 17, 1983 Tape No . 2227 NM - 2 MR. l'l!NDSOR: As a result of that there have been numerous enquiries coming to our Department of Development for information on development opportunities in the ·Province. In addit .ion to that, while in chicago I spoke with the ERGO Metals Company of Chicago, formerly Ana condo. AluminUm of Louisville, Kentucky, who hon. members will know are presently involved in a joint feasibility study to establish an aluminum smelter in our Province~ So that,! think,justifies that.

The second earth shattering question is the names and salaries of executive assistants and parliamentary assistants and the whole bunch of them. MR. HODDER: That is the sort of q.uestions you put on order papers. I MR. WINDS'O;R: T.hat is very important stuff, Mr. Speaker, and I table that information as well. 4756

May 17, 19B3 Tape 222B EC - i ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Motion 1, Budget Debate. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Motion 1, Budget Debate. Last day, the hon. the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) adjourned the debate. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, if it had not been my turn to speak, I would have gotten up on the last point of order where reference was made to the absence of some ministers in this House,and suggested that

whereas the difference on this side of the House is that some of our ministers are perhaps not here, I would say all of the members over there are not all there. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. CARTER: So that perhaps would outline the difference. We are now back on the main motion ... --- ~~- - .... of the Budget .Debate. We were treated to a rather lengthy seven day ordeal by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) and, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to suggest at this time that considering the numbers in this House on the government side, that we take advantage of our numerical superiority to make some changes in the rules of the House. I think, for instance, where the Leader of the Opposition is a recognized low-life, he should be allowed to speak for no more than five minutes. The oth~r, you know, 'mawmouths' perhaps could get six minutes. I think that this would be a great change, a very refreshing change and a very necessary one. However, the exact amo~t of time allotted to people should probably be less than it is now.

I understand that I have half an hour. I intend to try to use most of it but I can assure hon. members that it is not necessary for a person to have any 4757

May 17, 1983 Tape 2228 EC - 2 MR. CARTER: more than about twen~y to twenty- five minutes unless it is a very major bill indeed. I do notice, Mr. Speaker, that our budget alone, of all the ten p7ovinces of Canada - and, well, the -11th jurisdiction, the federal 4758

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2229 SD - 1 MR. CARTER: government, ~ur budget comes nearest to balancing itself. We do not quite balance ourselves and, of course, when you take capital expenditures into account we are seriously out of balance. Ann I do not entirely agree with the distinction between current and capital but it is a recognized accounting procedure and therefore I will not quarrel with it at the present time. But even if you take our total borrowing this year and consider that to be our deficit , it is still considerably less than any of the other provinces in Canada.

I believe Quebec's is $2.5 billion Ontario's is something over $1 billion and on and on it goes. Even a small province like New Brunswick, I think, is some hundreds of millions of dollars out of kilter. So it is with great pride, Mr. Speaker, that I support this government, I support their budget. There are a few minor changes, obviously, one would want. I think we all do not agree entirely.

Perhaps there would be a slight change of emphasis that I would like to put in,but I still think the government who have put together this budget and shown the amount of restraint that they have shown deserve a great deal of credit. Now, I have half an hour to speak and the Budget Debate as well as the Address in Repl~ - -·-· all~ a member to speak on at length about practically anything under the sun. I find it difficult to imagine what would be classified as irrelevant. So it is hard for me to know where to begin.

I could perhaps begin with the beginnings of Confederation, the infamous National Convention,and I could refer to a public debate that took place here in St. John's not too many months ago when the speaker suggested that there had been unwarranted interference by both Great Britian and Canada in the National Convention. And I do not think he made the following points 4759

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2229 SD - 2 MR. CARTER: but they should b~ made in support of his suggegtion. F~r 47CO

May 17, 1983 Tape 2230 PK - l MR. CARTER: instance Confederation was put on the ballot paper, not by the request of the National Convention, but by the authority of the Commission of Government at that time. The wording itself on the ballot, because I remember seeing one, responsible government as it was in ~ as it existed I believe was the phraseology used, as it existed in 1932 1 that recalled the days of the dole. Then , of course, there was the second referendum. Confederation was defeated on the first referendum. But the powers that existed then decided to hold a second referendum.

And I suggest that if the Confederation suggestion had been defeated on the second referendum there would have been some excuse dredged up to hold a third referendum. Anyway, I still think that the second referendum was made necessary only by the participation of Mr. Smallwood. I think if he had not been on the ·scene Confederation would have come a lot more quickly and a lot more si!ll!l .othly. So rather than hold him up as the Father of Confederation I suggest that he delayed Confederation. It is not the first time I have suggested . • ~ . J\. this, I am prepared to argue this any time anywhere. ~ -.

I could perha~s mention the. new industries that the Liberal government brought in, Valdrnanis, the chocolate factory, the rubber factory,it was boot licking good, the battery plant, a whole lot of factories. By the way, while I am mentioning these factories and the -· -·.. .... Smallwood regime, I might mention that I have heard it said that the recently discovered diaries of Adolph Hitler are probably quite accurate because in them he sa::s, 'Smallwood - - ·--- was a great man'. Or have I got it backwards? Maybe it was Smallwood who said, 'Hitler was a great man•. 4751

May 171 19'83 MR. BUTT: MR. CAR-TER: Tape 2230 Turn it around. That is right. Pi< -2 I see we have just recently had a Liberal meeting in Gander and they chose as their theme, one of the grossest ther.1es that they· could possibly have chosen 1 The :ruture Is Ours 1• Not only are they 4762

Hay 17, 1983 Tape No. 2231 ~!J - 1 MR. CARTER: anxious to have the past and the present, they would like to have the future as well. lm d one might well ask what Liberal philosophy consists of. It is completelv hankrupt as far as I am concerned and consists simply in seizing the government and sharing the spoils. Who was it said, 'To the victor belongs the spoils,'? A well known member of this House.

I think if the young so-called Liberals, if they wanted to take a genuine interest in politics they should immediately divorce themselves from the existing Liberals and hope that they soon reach the dustbin of history. On the matter of philosophy I notice that the Premier has just written a new book. I have not had a chance to read it all yet but I have had an opportunity to hear it reviewed by no . less a person than Michael Harrington and he gives it a very good review and I would hope -that we will have some more publications from our Premier.

It is amazing to think that someone as busy as himself was able to find time to put together a book because if we judge from what Mr. Rowe has been saying about writing 1 it is supposed to be very difficult and very time consuming. It has taken him several years to come up with a book. If our former Premier had ever written a book I imagine - I am just casting about for a title - he could have called it The Rake's Progess perhaps and it would not have been a treat as in agriculture. The former, former Pr~mier, Mr.

Smallwood, I think has written a number of books, one that he did want to write,I do not think he ever got around to i t 1 was Kings and Presidents Who Have Met Me. Now if the present Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) could write a book, what could he call it? ~~e and the Mifflin Report. 4763

May 17, 1983 Tape No . 2231 MJ - 2 MR. CARTER : But I see the Leader of the Opposition (~tr . Neary} more as a poet than as a author. I think he could perhaps rewrite so me of the popular son gs, for instance, he could start off: Oh, what a libelous morning/ Oh, what a blackmailing day/ I have the shiftiest feeling/ Everything is going my way . Or he could have tried another one,a familiar one: Oh, Johnny Doyle/ The bribes the bribes are calling/ From Panama/ And down the seamy side - and so on . SOME HON . MEMBERS : Ba, hal MR . CARTER: To get back to serious concerns, Mr.

Speaker, there are two big topics that have come out of - not so much out of the budget,but out of the period of the budget. One 4 7 6 {+

May 17, 1983 Tape 2232 EC - 1 MR. CARTER: is the topic of education and the other is the topic of health and I would like to spend a few minutes on those. Now that some of the dust has settled on the teacher's strike, a couple of observations may be .made. I had the opportunity to speak to a number of teachers during that dispute and it is unfortunate that some of the underlying issues did not surface. One of the underlying issues - and it has been an underlying issue for certainly the last ten, possibly the last twenty years - is the matter of the authority of the teacher in the class­ room.

The teacher in the classroom, in my view, does not have very much authority. Now, the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) has gone on to great lengths to suggest that not only should education be available to everyone, but he and many others have suggested that education should be compulsory, that you should learn willy-nilly. And it has reached the almost absurd stage where a person is almost forced to go through high school, or to go through school.

And that means that some teachers or many teachers, probably all teachers, are saddled with two or three drones in the classroom who do nothing but hold up the work of the class and would be far better off out of the classroom, in fact, out of the school system altogether.

Every one of us can think of an example or two of people who had no desire, no wish to attend school, no aptitude and no interest, and yet had to be sort of ·looked after by the school authorities because they were not of the school leaving age or whatever and they became a charge on the school system, and the teacher just does not have the power to~et rid of people who will not learn. Now, I met a teacher from New York, a Newfoundland girl, who teaches mathematics in 4765

May 17, 1983 Tape 2232 EC - 2 MR. CARTER: New York, and I asked her did she have any trouble, was she teaching at a fairly rough school in Ne~ York? And she said, yes, it was in a rough district in New York. And I ~aid , 'What sor t of problems did you encounte=?' ~' she said, there ,.,ere only two things that she \'lOuld not put up with, one was a cheat and the other was a 'mouth ' and she said if she had ei ther a cheat or a 'mouth ' she threw him or her out and that person did not get back . And she ran a very tight ship , 47 G6

Hay 17, 1983 Tape No. 2233 SD - 1 HR. CARTER: a very successful mathematics class and I think that she probably had the right idea.

The other point I would like to make about teachers is that there are some- and unfortunately there are not many, I guess it is just ·the way people are made - there are some outstanding teachers, not very many, only a handful, but everybody knows who they are, every school board knows who they are, every student certainly knows who they are and I believe that some way should be found to reward them and I mean reward them massively, -- give them great big cash bonuses as long as they stay in the classrooms.

I think it is a great pity that a person who shows some ability in a particular field is then promoted automatically - MR. TULK: Are you talking about merit pay? HR. CARTER: Merit pay, yes. And I cannot put together a set of rules or guidelines for that but r think it is long overdue. HR. TULK: It is very difficult to determine. HR. CARTER: Very, very difficult, very hard but just because it is hard does not make it any less desirable.

I think every hon. gentleman here would agree that if there was some equitable way of giving massive doses of merit pay to superb teachers as long as they stayed on in the classroom, I think that they would all approve of doing it. Now, I do not know how you do it, r­ really do not, but I will put it out for hon. members to consider. And I think it is well worth considering. I think a number of us have perhaps read the book p·eter Principle which . suggests that people who have shown an ability in one field are automatically promoted and if they show ability in that 4767

May 17, 1983 Tape No . 2233 so - 2 MR . CARTER : field they are promoted again and they keep on oeirtg promoted until they get to a level which they do not desire to be at or are not effective at and it is unfortunate. I think a good teacher who has shown ability in a classroom should be kept in the classroom . I think a good te acher is probably a priceless asset and should be treated as one . Now the other point I wanted to make was on the topic of health. And here a number of people, members opposite, have talked about cutbacks in Health, in fact, the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr .

Roberts), as far as I am concerned, lied to this Bouse when hG said that there were cutbacks in health. a:e knows better, he ought to know better, he was the Minister of Health. He was the right -hand man,proba .bly the left -hand man for the former, former Premier. He has been in and around government for many, many years, too many years, I think. He is a very intelligent person, a very qualified able person, he is apparently a very successful lawyer and yet 4768

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2234 NM- 1 MR. CARTER: a person of that ability and that standing is able to get up in this House of Assembly, and,as far as I am concerned,just lie to the House and say that there have been cutbacks in Health •. There have not been cutbacks in Health. The Health budget has gone up by some, I think,lO or 12 per cent. The Health estimates came into our committee,when we discussed the estimates in Committee,and the minister and his officials--in fact the minister brought in a great many officials, who were v~ry, very free with information.

We have made it a practice in our committee to not only hear from the minister but to hear on questions of fact from the minister's officials. So if you ask how many hospital beds are there in a particular hospital, the minister is not required to answer that. He may say, "Well, I will refer that to. one of my officials. " · It is the official's business to know exactly how many beds and a half there are in a particular hospital and how much the average cost per bed is. All this statistical information is not surely the department of the minister.

His officials have that at their fingertips and the officials in the estimates on Health were extremely co-operative. A great deal of information was forthcoming. Anyone who wishes to read the Hansard of thos.e particular estimates may do so, and will, I think, agree. And yet an hon. member could lie · to this House and say that there are cutbacks in Health. It is intolerable, it is - MR. HODDER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNi·cholas) : A point of order, the han. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman who is speaking on two or three occasions now has said that 4769

May 17, 1983 Tape No . 2234 NM - 2 MR. HODDER : thenember for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) has lied to the House,or told lies. I heard h~m once myself and hon. members on this side heard him say it twice. Now the member knows that that is not parliamentary. He is obviously flaunting the rules of the House deliberately, I do not know for what reason, because I would have thought that the non. gentleman would have thought more of the rules of the House than to stand up and use unparl~arnentary language, something that is totally out of order, ,Mr . Speaker. MR. CARTER: To that point of order. MR.

HODDER: I am not finished, Mr. Speaker. And I would ask, Mr. Speaker, that th .e member for St. John;s North (Mr. Carter) withdraw the remarks that the member for the Strait of Belle Isle lied to the House. ' MR. CARTER: To that point of order, ~. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER . (McNichol·as) :: To that point of order, the hon. member for St. John;s North. MR. . CARTER: I must argue at some length. 4770

May 17, 1983 Tape 2235 PK - 1 MR. CARTER: The point of order is well taken. I understand the han. gentleman disagrees vri th my suggesting that the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (.Mr. Roberts) has told a lie to this House, yet if I am unable to mention this fact, Mr. Speaker, I a m seriously curtailed in my freedom of debate - ··p.R. !•JJ..RREN: "vi thdra,.,, withdraw. MR. CARTER: - because - MR. TULK: He has to withdraw it. MR. CARTER: Well, Mr. Speaker, to a point of privilege then. I am quite concerned about this. On a point of privilege, on a point of personal privilege.

My ability to speak and debate freely in this House is ?eriously curtailed when a member gets up and delibera~ely misleads this House. Now, I do not think there is any question - now this is a point of privilege - MR. WARREN: MR. CARTER: state it. MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : or to the point of privilege? MR. CARTER: Name him! Name him! - and I am at liberty to Name him! Order, please! Is this to the point of order On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. On a point of personal privilege, Mr. Speaker. I am suggesting that my right of debate - MR. SPEAKER: Order, crder! Order, please!

I want to get this clear. Is this a point of privilege?c MR. CARTER: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege. MR. CARTER: A point of personal privilege. 4771

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2235 PK - 2 MR. SPEA KER (r.icNicholas ): The hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: I am stating my point of personal privilege. I am saving that mv right, my ability to debate, or any hon. member to debate in this House is seriously curtailed when he cannot point to a clear, and as far as I am concerned, a deliberate presentation of misinformation. MR. TULK: Say lie. MR. CARTER: A lie, yes, a lie. I am saying a lie, a deliberate misinterpretation of the estimates, of a government department.

When someone suggests that there have been cutbacks when there most demonstrably have not been cutbacks, then I think I am at right, I have a perfect right to comment on this fact. MR. TULK: Use the word? MR. CARTER: And I am using the word, Mr. Speaker, a lie, that the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) lied to this House. This is my point of privilege. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am making this point of privilege. I will sit down in a moment and you may deal with it as you see fit and as you surely may.

But I point out that the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle, as far as I am concerned, misled this House when he spoke about cutbacks in health. There were no cutbacks in health, there are no cutbacks in health, there has been a 12 per cent increase. And, you know, the two facts do not jibe. So there, Mr. Speaker, I am in your hands. MR. HODDER: To that point of privilege, Hr. Speaker. 4772

May 17,1983 Tape No. 2236 ah-1 MR.SPEAKER (McNicholas): To that point of privilege. The hon. member for Port au Port. MR.HODDER: Mr. Speaker, it is not a point of privilege it is a point of order and it is something that has to be dealt with by the Chair. One of the cardinal rules of this House of Assembly is that one member cannot say that another member lied. HR. TULK: Or deliberately misled the House. MR.HODDER: The charge deliberately · misled the House is also out of order, Mr. Speaker. But I do not know why the han. member is resorting to this particular tactic.

It has been a most uninspiring speech that he has been making, I suppose crafted to entertain his colleagues on the other side of the House, and now he would like to make some sort of a point by calling a member who is not in this House a liar. Now, Mr. Speaker, the allegations on health care are well-known across this Province,and if the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) feels that the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.Roberts) is wrong when he alleges that health care services have been cut back that may be his opinion,but he ·does not have the right to say that the member lied.

It is a very serious offence to name a person for lying,particularly on an issue as broad as this one. Mr. Speaker, on any issue a member should not be allowed to say that another member lied or deliberately lied or misle~ the House. Mr. Speaker, I ask that you ask the member for St. John's North to withdraw the remark and if he does not withdraw the remark,then Your Honour has other remedies I am sure he will impose on the member for St. John's North. 4773

May 17,1983 Tape No. 2236 ah-2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (McNi cholas): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: I believe the proper procedure here is that first of all Your Honour has to rule whether or not the member for St. John's North (Mr.Carter) made a prima facie case,that his privileges were breached. I believe that is the first thing that has to be ruled on.

Now once ­ Your Honour rules on that,then on the numerous occasions that the hon. gentleman - I use that term loosely - the han. gentleman accused my colleague of deliberately misleading the House or lying to the House,then these numerous statements have to be withdrawn, Mr. Speaker. There were at least four if not five times the hon. gentleman violated 'the rules of this House, made these statements under the disguise of a breach of his privilege. Now, Mr.

Speaker, whether the han. gentleman is limited in his vocabulary so that he cannot find other teEms that is the hon. gentleman's problem, that is not the problem . of this House. So I would submit the fi~st thing that has to happen is that Your Honour has to rule whether or not the han. gentleman's privileges have been breached, and I have no doubt what the outcome of that decision will be, and then Your Honour will have to on each time not once - 4774

May 17, 1983 Tape 2237 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: the hon. gentleman should not be allowed to get away with just getting up and saying, 'If I called the hon. gentleman a liar, I withdraw.' Each time that he did it he has to withdraw, each time he accused my hon. colleague of deliberately misleading the House. Each one has to be withdrawn in turn, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. McNicholas): Order, please! The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL : Mr. Speaker, I will not take up the time of this House by speaking on this point of order.

Your Honour knows what procedure applies with respect to this. If,in fact,Your Honour rules that there has been a breach of the rules of the House, he invites the_hon. member to withdraw and the hon. member gets ~ chance to withdraw, and if the hon. member does not withdraw then the Speaker has the authority to act. But, I mean, I do not think it is right if somebody gets up on a point of order - it is a disorder in itself to get up and expostulate as the hon. gentleman did. All the hon. gentleman is doing is trying to consume the time of the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter). MR. NEARY: Is that so? MR.

MARSHALL : So I will not, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: I am trying to rise the decorum of this House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I rule there is no point o£ privilege. To the point of order, I would ask the hon. the member for St. John's North to withdraw his comments. 4775

May 17, 1983 Tape 2237 EC - 2 MR. CARTER: Obviously, Mr. Speaker, I am in your hands, so I certainly do as you direct. There is really not much more I can say about it. I think you have covered it quite MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. McNicholas): On a point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is not good enough. Your Honour knows that, the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) knows that. The hon. gentleman did not withdraw the unparliamentary statements that he made, Mr. Speaker. MR. HODDER: He must say, 'I withdraw.' MR.

NEARY: All he said was, 'I am going to follow the directions of the Chair. He has to say, 'I withdraw', Mr. Speaker, under the rules of this House. MR. MARSHALL: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL : Your Honour asked the member for St. John's North to withdraw, he said he woUld do as you 4776

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2238 MJ - 1 MR. MARSHALL: directed and that seems to me to be full and sufficient. HR. NEARY: No, Sir, it is not. MR. MARSHALL: And in any event, Mr. Speaker, we cannot be bullyragged by the oppressive people on the other side. '·1R. HODDER: MR. MARSHALL: If Your Honour - It works both ways. It works both ways. It is .working both ways now, Mr. Speaker. Your Honour, has directed the member for St. John's North to withdraw, he has withdrawn and I think that is a full and sufficient disposition of the matter and that Your Honour should ask for the business to continue on. MR.

HODDER: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEKAER (McNicholas): To that point of order, the hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speake~, the member from St. John's North did not withdraw. He played with words with a great smirk on his face and I think that is an affront to Your Honour and I think the member is required to withdraw his comments. MR. SPEAKER.: Order, please! To that point of orde~, I understood the unparliamentary remarks that the hon. the ~ember for St. John's North made were withdrawn. The hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I do not have too much more to say, I have covered most of the points that I wished to cover. I would like to suggest that the - MR. NEARY: t~e will remember that one. 4777

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2238 MJ - 2 MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, do I hear a threat from the other side? Is this what we have to put up with every time we get up in this House, listen to threats from the other side? MR. NEARY: Bring up a point of order. MR. CARTER: I will not bring up a point of order, there have been far too many points of order brought up already but I will just simply say, Mr. Speaker, that it is a very sad day in this House of Assembly when one has to even entertain threats from the other side, from any side, left, right, bottom or top. So, Mr.

Speaker, the two main points that I wanted to make was the one about Education and the other about Health, that as far as I am concerned there have not been cutbacks in Health and on Education,the point that I do feel that outstanding teachers can and should be given massive bonuses to keep them in the classroom because one superb teacher, as I say, is a priceless asset and I think - the Clerk notifies me that I only have three minutes but I think I have covered pretty well what I wanted to cover and I thank han. ~entlernen for their attention. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. LUSH: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. 4778

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2239 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, that is one of the poorest speeches I have ever heard in this House. The hon. member talked about the time limits and suggested that certain members should be given five minutes, and six minutes and in any event,nobody should be given more than twenty-five minutes. I certainly understand why the han. member would say that, Mr. Speaker. MR. TULK: He would be down to thirty seconds. MR. LUSH: He would be down to about fifteen seconds if we followed the criteria that he would set. But, Mr.

Speaker, it was one of the poorest speeches, one of the lowest speeches 1 I think 1ever given in this hon. House. I wish it were a good speech because I generally like to respond to some of the things that hon. members say. But, Mr. Speaker, there was nothing said other than abuse and I am not going to respond to abuse. That is all the hon. member raised and the speech ~d nothing in content,and its description, its adjectives were nothing but abuse. It is unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, when we have to sit and listen to that kind of nonsense, to that kind of a low-level speech.

One would have thought that the hon. member could have given a speech better than that, an hon. member who has been sitting in this House for some time, .one would have thought that he could have dealt with this budget rationally and intelligently. And, Mr. Speaker, after hearing the hon. member give his philosophy on education there is no wonder he is not the minister. There is no wonder he is not the Minister of Education.

There is no wonder he is not the Minister of Education when he does not believe in the concept that everyone has a right to education, that he would apparently administer an I.Q. before kids came to school 4779

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2239 NM 2 MR. LUSH : and those who fell below a certain level would not be allowed to enter school. He talked about in every class there are two or three drones. Well, Mr. Speaker, that happens to be the situation in the House of Assembly as well. There are two or three drones in the House of Assembly. But, Mr. Spe .aker, it seems as though he would sacrifice our educational system for what he refers to as those two or three drones.. I. am afraid that is not a philosophy that would be accepted by the educators of Newfoundland,or the educators of Canada, or the educators of the Western world.

So, Mr. Speaker, it does not warrant discussion really other than - MR. TULK: Do you have a feeling that his I.Q. test would become a family test eventually? MR. LUSH: It would probably be li.ke wealth. So, Mr. Speaker, it probably points to why the government is moving in this direction with student aid. But ,anyway, we will not comment on that. Hon. members have that to live with. They have to get up and say whether or not that is. the philosophy of education that they espouse, the one that was given here today by the member for St. John's North CMr. Carter) , 4780

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2240 JV - 1 MR. LUSH: where we administer IQ tests and those people who fall below a certain level or those people who come from acertain socio-economic situation are not permitted to be educated. Mr. Speaker, what a philosophy of education! l hope that it is published for the people of Newfoundland so that the teachers living in the han. member's district will know what to do with the han. member. As I have said, with a philosophy like that in this progressive age, Mr.

Speaker, chere is no wonder that the minister did not hang on to that portfolio very long -I think about three months, ·was it? MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. LUSH: Three months.And with that kind of philosophy that he has espoused today, Mr. Speaker, . it is very easy to understand why that minister had that portfolio pulled away from him and someone else with a little more progressive thinking had to be put into that portfolio, B•ecause God forbid, Mr. Speaker, God forbid if that minfster was allowed to put his theory of education into practice.

God forbid that many of us here today probably would be denied an education. Many han. members here sitting would be denied an education. Mr. Speaker, that is a terrible philosophy that the member enunciated here today, tt is too bad that the teachers' of this Province could not be here today and hear that han. member espouse and articulate that philosophy. The other important item~ that he referred to was health and he said that there were no cutbacks, Mr. Speaker, that there were no cutbacks because there was a 12 per cent increase. It seems like I am able to make a similar analogy in that situation; 4701

May 17, 1983 Tape No . 2240 JV - 2 MR . LUSH: it seems rather similar to the EFP programme where the government had been saying there were cutbacks and there were no cutbacks in any of them . Mr . Speaker, all of them had increases - 8 per cent, 6 per cent. Mr . Speaker, there were no cutbacks, so Mr. Speaker, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gand er . Hon . gentlemen cannot have their cake and eat it too . They were the people who were cutbacks on the EFP 470 2

May 17, 1983 Tape 2241 EC - 1 MR. LUSH: but now when the case was reversed and we said there were cutbacks in health, no, no! But I suppose they will be able to devise a scheme somehow to say that a 12 per cent increasein health in Newfoundland is not a cutback

whereas 6 per cent and 8 per cent increases in EFP are cutbacks. They will be able somehow to come up with some sort of convoluted logic to be able to say that increases at the federal government level are cutbacks but they are not cutbacks in Newfoundland. MR. TULK: Cutbacks are not cutbacks in Newfoundland but increases by the feds are cutbacks. MR. LUSH: Yes. But, Mr. Speaker, they cannot have their cake and eat it too. I was not the person who said there were cutbacks in health. I did not say it. MR. TULK: No. MR.

LUSH: It was the Newfoundland Hospital Association, it was the Newfoundland Medical Association, it was the people who are running the hospitals in this Province who said there were going to be cutbacks. I did not say it. I can only listen to these people, Mr. Speaker. I am not working in the hospitals. It was they who said they are going to have to close down beds. It was they who said they are going to have to cut back the health care in this Province. I did not say it, Mr. Speaker. But now, Mr. Speaker, hon. gentlemen are stewing in their own juice. MR. TULK: That is right. MR. LUSH: An EFP programme, Mr.

Speaker, that gives an increase is a cutback. And now when people say that there are cutbacks in health, Mr. Speaker, they are cringing and they are fuming and stewing in their own juice. Mr. Speaker, they deserve it. It could not happen to a better crowd. They have asked for it. If they were more reasonable, if they were more rational, if they were 4703

May 17, 1983 Tape 2241 EC - 2 MR . LUSH: not so anti-ottawa and ruled this Province properly, maybe they would not get these things flung back in their faces . But , Mr . Speaker, this is what is happening . Every way they move, Mr. Speaker, they are getting themselves deeper and deeper into trouble . Because they can have cutbacks but the federal government cannot. The federal government cannot have cutbacks~ The federal government cannot be caught in this economic bind, it is only the provincial goverr~ent. Well, Mr . Speaker , it is time that these hon. gentlemen stood up like a government should.

It is time that they assume some responsibil it y for running this Province . It is time that they stood up like a government . It is time that they stood up like men and took it on the chin and acknowledged the fact that we are living in rough economi c times and not try to blame everything on the federal government and not try 4704

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2242 SD - 1 MR. LUSH: to ~uggest that in one case where there is a cutback it is an increase, or when it happens on the federal scene when it is an increase, you know, it is a cutback. So, Mr. Speaker, that is the place they have gotten themselves into now and it was they who started it by going all around this Province, by talking about the cuts in the EFP programme here when there was not a cut there was an increase everywhere along the board. And they opened themselves up to it.

There were cutbacks, they said, in health services, in education services when there were increases all along the way. But now, Mr. Speaker, when somebody suggests that a 12 per cent increase in Newfoundland represents a cutback, oh, no, no, that is not a cutback. DR. COLLINS: Would the hon . meriitrer perrni t a question? MR. LUSH: No, Mr. Speaker, because the hon. gentleman will get his opportunity to speak. He will get his opportunity to speak and he can do that. DR. COLLINS: I just want to make sure you do not inadvertently mislead the House. MR. LUSH: Not deliberately misleading the House - well, maybe - DR.

COLLINS: I said I did not want you to inadvertently mislead the House. MR. LUSH: DR. COLLINS: MR. LUSH: And I am not inadvertently - That is what you are doing. But, Mr. Speaker, maybe there is a case where - I do not know how to explain it - maybe there is some formula which says, 'If it drops below 10 per cent maybe that is a cutback. Maybe if it drops below a 10 per cent increase and that is a cutback' • Maybe that is the convoluted logic they have used. But, Mr. Speaker, han. gentlemen know the situation. Wh .en they were going around this Province, all Cabinet Ministers 4705

May 17, 1983 Tape No . 2242 so - 2 MR. LUSH: talking about the ~utbacks in the EFP programme anc the general increase , I think, in the EFP programme \vas somewhere up around 10 per cent. That was the general increase.

And then when the Newfoundland Hospital Association and the Newfoundland Medical Association suggested there were cutbacks with respect to health care in this Province everybody got on their high horses exclaiming, 'Bow can a 12 per cent increase be a cutback? ' Well, as I have said before and I will finish on that point, one can ask the same question about the EFP programme .­ how can a 10 per cent increase, a general increase of 10 per cent,or put in the specific areas of health and education, how can a 6 per cent or an 8 per cent increase be considered a cutback? Now, Mr . Speaker, there were cutbacks though .

If hon . gentlemen opposite want to argue about the semantics, we can talk about the real cutbacks, and I am looking at the member for St . Mary's - The Capes U1r. Hearn), who got up and said that he supported this budget. Well 1 let me tell you there are very few 4706

May 17, 1983 Tape 2243 PK - 1 MR. LUSH: people in this Province who agree with him. There are very few people in this Province outside of the hon. gentlemen opposite who are forced to get up, Mr. Speaker, by their colleague to try and get out a few words of support, to try and weasel these words out somehow that they support this Budget· Because there is no support for this Budget anywhere in the Province. Anywhere in the Province, Mr. Speaker, there is no support. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: Who supports a Budget that offers no hope for the unemployed? Who supports a Budget Mr.

Speaker, who offers no hope for the 50,000 people in this Province who are unemployed? Who supports a Budget where there are no special programmes for the youth of this Province who are now coming out of universities and other post-secondary institutions in the droves, Mr. Speaker, but no work, cannot find any work to go back to their schools next year? · They c~nnot find any work to get money to go to uniuersity. They cannot find any work to get money to go to the trade schools 1 yet knowing when they ·go back they have to borrow more money. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is what this Budget has done.

It has offered no hope to the unemployed, offered no hope to the students of this Province yet knowing when they go back to school in September they have to pay more money for their fees and they have to borrow more money. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the philosophy of education and it hinges d~ngerously 'it hinges dangerously' on the philosophy that w~s enunicated just a few moments ago by the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carterl, moving, Mr. Speaker, to a philosophy of education where only 4707 -,.

May 17, 1983 Tape 2243 PK - 2 MR. LUSH: the rich are going to be able to attend our unver~ity and our other post-secondary institutiom. That is what this Budget did, Mr. Speaker. That is what it did, forcing our students to go deeper and deeper in debt! our middle-class students and students from the lower levels of society. That is what we have proportioned them to do, denying them an education and forcing them into debt. Our most valuable resource, Mr. Speaker, and this is the policy that the Province nm-1 has. It is a rather strange policy too, Mr.

Speaker, a rather strange policy making it more difficult, making it more financially difficult for a student to get an education and yet this is the government that advocates a policy of Newfoundlanders fir~t. Newfoundlanders first! That certainly would seem , Mr. Speaker, to be quite contradictory, a government that advocates Newfoundlanders first and yet we do not make the areas of training easier, we are making them more difficult. A province that advocates Newfoundlanders first and instead of making education ~ore accessible , instead of making training easier we are making it more -difficult.

And certainly, Mr. Speaker, that flies in the face of logic to be advocating a policy of Newfoundlanders first and then making everything difficult for them 1 making it difficult for them to train, setting up the MED school here in St. John's, Mr. Speaker, when we can set it up in other parts of the Province. T~at is another contradictory item with respect to this government of Newfoundlanders first. Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member mentioned that the Liberal party had no philosophy or he,at least,did not seem to understand it.

I can tell you if the Liberal party advocated a policy of Newfoundlanders first we would not be giving it lip service. ~·!e would not 4708

/ May 17, 1983 Tape 2243 PK - 3 MR. LUSH: b~ just drawing up local preference policies and re9ulations, Mr . Speaker, we would be putting the training p~s in effect so that our Newfoundlanders could go and train and then they would get their jobs by right . 4709 .

May 17, 1983 Tape No, 2244 MJ - 1 MR. LUSH: We would set up the proper training programmes for them and we would not raise the fees, and we would not raise the loan ceiling either to make it more difficult, Mr. Speaker. We would lower that loan ceiling so that they could go in and train knowing that they are the most valuable resource and knowing that when they are trained, Mr. Speaker, they are going to bring dollars into this Province, they are not going to join the ranks of the unemployed.

That would be the philosophy of the Liberal Party, providing the training for our students to train themselves for future jobs in the offshore and in other areas of the labour market and then opening up the areas of finance, making that easier so the students would not have bear such a financial burden. That is what the Liberal Part y would do. That is the difference Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: MR. LUSH: You should be ashamed to utter those wares .

And I am not ashamed to utter those words for the people of Newfoundland, for the thousands and thousands of students who right now want to go back to university, want to go back to Trades School and cannot find a job to earn any money to go back. It is the han. member who should be ashamed and maybe he should let the students of this Province know how he feels about this, these thousands of students who are out there now frustrated, Mr.

Speaker, not knowing which way to turn to look for a jobknowing that next September they have to borrow almost double the money that they borrowed this September, That is the hope, that is what this budget offerred the students of this Province • So ha~ can anybody support this budget, Mr. $peaker , a budget that hits the students of this Province, that hits the educational system of our Province? Agovernment that says, 'Newfoundlanders first, 1 4790

May 17, 198 3 Tape No. 2244 MJ - 2 MR . LUS H: a government that is ~nviting people to go back to post secondary institutions next year to join t;h,e Class of '83. Mr. Speaker, what a contradiction of policies. Here we have, 'Newfoundlanders first,' and yet they cannot train. We are making education more difficult for them, 'Newfoundlanders first.' · Now,here we are inviting them all to join the Class of '83, they cannot find a job to make money to be able to go back. And they understand the realism of th .e economic situation of today.

None of these students complained when their fees were jacked up by 5 per cent, there was not a whimper from any of the students in this Province, they accepted that. But then, on top of that, Mr. Speaker, came the change in regulations. And that is not all, Mr. Speaker, really, they have done. They have made the eligibility criteria very, very difficult but l w~ll not get into that this evening because l want to say other things • Mr. Speaker, this budget has very little support throughout Newfoundland.

It has no support with the me .dical people, it has no support, or very little support, in education,particularly with the students, it has 478 1

May 17,1983 Tape No. 2245 AH - 1 MR. LUSH: nosupport in the business community because there is nothing in this to stimulate the economy, nothing in it at all, Mr. Spea~er. So what is in this budget for hon. members to support? What is it t~at they are so proud about? I do not hear tto many of the hon. gentlemen in the papers or on the electronic media singing the praises of this budget. They do it in this hon. House where they think they might not be quoted because they would be ashamed, they would be ashamed if they knew that they were quoted on any broad scale in terms of supporting this budget.

There is nothing in this budget for anybody to be proud about, particularly our students, our hospitals and the unemployed. There is nothing in this budget, Mr. Speaker, to be proud about. The hon. gentleman from St. John's North (Mr. Carter) was very proud because we came closest to balancing the budget than any other province in Canada. He was very proud about that. Well, Mr. Speaker, probably all hon. members would be proud about it if we could believe it. What did the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) tell us last year? He told us that we would have a surplus of $5 million.

Now,is the hon. gentleman saying that he finds this budget more credible this year, that he finds more credence in the minister's statement this year than last year when the minister said that we were going to have a $5 million surplus? What happened? It was something almost close to a $5 _0 million deficit. And this yea:r; we are saying something is going to be a $24.4 million deficit or somewhere in that area, over $20 million. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is the question of credibility with this budget.

When last year the minister told this Province, told the people of the Province that we were going to have a $5 million SUrPlus, that turned into just about a $50 million deficit. So, Mr. Speaker, that certainly is 47n2 I .;,;

Ma y 17 ,1 98 3 Ta pe No. 22 45 ah-2 MR.LUSH: not accurate forecasting. And who is-to say that it is more accurate this year-?We hope it is. But I cannot swallow .it hook, line and sinker as easily as the member fdr St. John's North (Mr.Carter) does. I cannot do it. Mr. Speaker, again I ask the question who . are the hordes of people out there who support this budget? Han. members know very well that there are no large numbers of people out there supporting this budget. As a matter of fact,there are very few.

People are really in despair because this budget offers very little hope for this coming year , for this fiscal year. What it is, Mr. Speaker, of course,is it follows the trend of the right-wing · budgets in Canada today, of the . ~ory budgets. That is what it is. 470 3

May 17, 1983 Tape 2246 EC - 1 MR. LUSH: It is a Tory budget, Mr. Speaker, and that is what is wrong, of course, with Canada today. It is very difficult: I would no -t;-want to be iri the .-federal Liberal Government today, trying to direct this country when the provincial governments, of course, are predominantly Tory, going in a right-wing direction, Mr. Speaker, wpere we get cutbacks and layoffs _ and slash backs. That . is what it is all about. And this is a right-wing budget and it will do nothing for the people of this Province.

And the quicker, of course, the people of this Province realize a right-wing budget is no good for this Province, and the quicker the people of Canada realize a right-wing · budget, the better for all concerned. MR. CARTER: What kind of a budget would you bring down? MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, what the hon. gentleman would do is develop this Province, this is what we would do, develop it, ~~. Speaker, develop our primary resources. We would have the offshore swinging, Mr. Speaker, by now. MR. TULK: And the Lower Churchill. MR. LUSH: And the Lower Churchill, and I could to on and on.

We would have this Province moving. That is what we need, Mr. Speaker, We need new leadership in this Province today, we need somebody with a new vision, we need somebody who can see the problems of this country and of the provinces of Canada 'and we need somebody who can change things, somebody who is willing to get down to brass tacks, Mr. Speaker, and change things. We have had enough of these right-wing Tory budgets. So, Mr.

Speaker, that is what is wrong with this budget, it is a right-wing, Tory budget full of cutbacks, slash backs, layof£s, That is what the people of this Province have to tolerate over the next year and longer, because it looks like this government have become tired, no initiative, no energy, no political will, 478ft

May 17, 1983 Tape 2246 EC - 2 MR. LUSH: no courage to do what has to be done, Mr- Speaker, in these harsh economic times; All they can do is sit back and blame the federal government. Instead of developing their own policies, instead of trying to develop what we have, they are just sitting back and letting the Province drift further and further into an economic mess. That is what is happening. And the hon. gentlemen know that is what is happening. They do not know how to handle it, Mr. Speaker, they do not know what to do and they have given up on governing this Province.

They are about the equivalent now of a municipality. That is what they are, Mr. Speaker. They have reduced themselves to the equivalent of a municipality within the federation of Canada. This they have done, of course, through their insidious attacks on Ottawa, their confrontation attacks, so that the people of this Province have given up on them. They know there is no hope, they know that they have no plans to develop this Province. Well, Mr. Speaker, it is time that they started. I notice now that they are getting their pictures taken witn the ministers giving money for roads and this sort of thing.

Maybe they think this is the beginning 4705

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2247 NM -1 MR. LUSH: of the new era, this is the beginning of their developmental programme, their ~olicies for development, getting their pictures in the paper with ministers, Mr. Speaker, for doing highways that they had as much to do with as I have to do with the cruise missile. So, Mr. Speaker, that is the kind of things we see.

When there is a place to make a political point, to gain political advantage, the han. gentlemen are ~lways there on the periphery, right ready to jump in.and get their pictures in the papers with federal members giving out money, and the monies1as I say, that were given out for whatever projects, han. members opposite had as much to do with as I have to do with the cruise missile. But, Mr. Speaker, this will tell their mentality, this will demonstrate their level of concern for the Province in terms of developing this Province econonrnically. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I wanted to get on to roads and municipal affairs since this is the Budget Speech, so I will spend a few moments on them. We have asked the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawel for a list of -.the roads that are going to :Oe paved and constructed in this Province over the next few months. He insists that he is not going to give us that list1it looks like. What we have to do is keep our ears tuned to the radio and our eyes: glued to the paper and watch han. members opposite announce the li.ttle bits of road that are going to be done here and there. What a policy, Mr.

Speaker, for developing transportation in this Province. What a policy for developing transportation! What a policy for developing 4786

-- May 17, 1983 Tape No. 224 7 mr 2 MR. LUSH: the resource areas of this Province! What a policy when one has to tune in on a Saturday morning and hear the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgant announce two miles of roads going to be reconstructed down somewhere in Bonavista South, and someone else somewhere else. What a policy for developinq the transportation system of this : Province. So that is where we have come to, Mr. Speaker, that is where we have arrived in this Province. That is where we have arrived. That is their concern for developing the transportation system in this Province.

That is their concern for developing the resource areas. Remember that great transportation policy of this government, to develop roads, to construct roads in areas with resource potential? Mr. Speaker, it is going anywhere else but. The only place ·-- . ---· it is going is in those areas that have voting potential. That is where it is going. resource potential. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. LUSH: It has nothing to do with ---- ,/_ Voting po~:ntial ~~ ~ resource. Yes, it is resource potential all right, physical resource potential as opposed to natural resource potential and primary resource potential. But, Mr.

Speaker, that is what this budget is all about, hen. gentlemen can get up and say they support it, but I 'WOuld like to hear more hon. gentlerren get up and say they support the high levels of unemployment in this Province, the high levels of unemployment this budget is going to create. That is what I would like to hear them talk about. MR. SPEAKER (;Aylward)_: Order, please~ The hon. member's time has elapsed. 4787

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 224 7 Nl:1 ~ 3 MR. LUSH: ·. Mr. Speaker, just as a concluding statement, I would like for them to get up and say that they support the cutbacks with respect to student aid in this Province and all of the 4798

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2248 11J - 1 MR. LUSH: anxiety and the financial burden that it is going to impose on the young people of this Province. HR. RIDEOUT: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : White Bay. MR. CALLAN: Baie Verte - White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. The hen. the member for Baie Verte - I ah.rays follow the member for Yes, and the hen. gentleman will always be doing that too, Mr. Speaker. r1r. Speaker, I vepy seldom interrupt anybody on the other side when they are speaking. I assume that the gentleman from Bellevue (~1r. Callan) will have the same courtesy, but if he does not, Mr.

Speaker, it does not really bother me. I will plough on and make my few remarks as best I can, but if he wants to be courteous then he can be courteous. Mr. Speaker, I spoke only three or four days ago when the non-confidence motion was on on the Budget Debate and I outlined all kinds of reasons then why I supported this budget and this administration, I do not propose to elucidate again today those reasons, b~t I do want to take a few minutes, Mr.

Speaker, to speak on something else that is very close to me and to talk about for a few minutes - and I have noticed it for a couple of days in this House ~ one of the most cowardly acts of parliamentary procedure that you could ever see an bon. gentleman take

part in. I am talking,of course, about the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary). The Leader of the Opposition for the past couple of days, Mr, Speaker, has tried to engage in the process of asking questions to ministers who he knows very well are not 4799

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2248 MJ - 2 MR. RIDEOUT: responsible for th,e particular fields of policy or the particular questions that he is asking. Now, he makes a very grave mistake nine times · out of ten, ninety-nine and a half times out of one hundred he makes a very grave mistake 1 because he directs his questions. to the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) 1 who is a well versed gentleman in all government polic~ so he makes the mistake most of the time. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : member for Port au Port, A point of order, Mr, .Speaker, A point of order, the hon. the MR. HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, the hon, member says that the Leader of the Opposition is directing his questions to the wrong person, Now, Mr, speaker, who would it be more appropriate to address your questions to than the assistant Premier, the Government House Leader, the President of the Council? Now, Mr. Speaker, I would think that th,e questions that he is referring to in his speech, which were on the Baie Verte Task Force, were questions which would have been discussed in Cabinet.

The best man to answer those questions would have been the Premier who is not in his seat today 1 so therefore he asked the Government House Lea .de:t;, When the Question Period went on, Mr, SpeakeT, and we did ask a question of that minister,he did not give us a satisfactory answer. so if th,is is a parliamentary government where the Cabinet makes the decisions,th,en the Government House Leader, the President of the Council , the Deputy Premier should certainly be the person to answer those questions. 4800

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2249 SD - l MR. SPEAKER (A ylward) : Order, please! To that point of order, there is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. The hon. member for Baie Verte - White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. - I chose deliberately not to respond, Mr. Speaker, just because it is a deliberate effort to waste time. The fact of the matter, Mr. Speaker, is that the Baie Verte Peninsula Task Force was set up under the responsibility of the Chairman of the Resource Policy Committee of Cabinet 1 who happens to be the Minister of Development (.Mr. Windsor)..

When that hon. gentleman got out of his seat today to answer questions ~what did the Leader of the Opposition (~r. Nearyl say? I hope the media picked it up, Mr. Speaker. What did the hon. gentleman say? 'I do not want any response from this gentleman'. This is the minister directly responsible for this · report. This is the minister, Mr. Speaker, to whom the six or seven people on the Baie Verte Peninsula Task Force answer.

This is the man they make their recommendations to, this is the man who takes them to Cabinet, this is the man who goes and looks for funding for them; this is th .e man who asks the Cabinet to implement their recommendations, Did they ask this man the questions, Mr. Speaker? SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. MR. RIDEOUT: No 1 they did not. They wanted, Mr. Speaker, the med.i:a to report that, this · gen tleiiJa .n did not get a chance to answer, that hopefully they could get somebody else to answer who might appear on the sur:l;ace. not to know what he was talking about. That was the game plan, Mr.

Speaker, but they got sadly mistaken because the President of the Council (Mr. MarshallL 1 as usual, knew 4801

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2249 so - 2 MR. RIDEOUT: exactly what he wa -s talking about and knew exactly what this government has done as far as the Baie Verte Peninsula Task Force report goes. Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to go into some de.tail on the fifty recommendations in this report and let us see where this government stands. I wish I could have answered the questions, Mr. Speaker. Let us see, Mr. Speaker, where this government stand on the fifty recommendations. How many recommendations in this report relate to the Government of Canada, Mr. Speaker? How many? Twenty out of fifty.

Forty per cent of the recommendations in this report, Mr. Speaker, are relative to jurisdictions that directly falls under the Government of Canada. What has been their response, Mr. Speaker? MR. HODDER A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. RIDEOUT: You see, Mr. Speaker, they do not want to hear it but I will get my thirty minutes anyway. MR. SPEAKER (Ay lward} Order, please! for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: A point of order, the hon. member Mr.

Speaker, if 40 per cent of those recommendations deal directly with the federal governrnen~ then I would suspect that the han. member's friends in the federal government on the Opposition benches will ask those question. For the 60 per cent that refer to this particular government, it is up to us to ask questions about them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Sit down. Sit down. MR. HODDER: And he said that that minister was the minister who is responsible for Baie Verte.

I can tell the member that that han. gentleman,who is now absent, the Premier is the person responsible to the ,people of this Province and in his absence the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshalll is responsible. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. 4802

May 17, 1983 MR. RIDEOUT: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Tape 2250 EC - 1 To that point of orQer, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! To that point of order, the hon. the member for Baie Verte - White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Just briefly to the point of order. I am not going to make any great response because it is only a deliberate attempt to cut into my time, but for somebody in this House to get up and cast aspersions about the Premier being absent when they know very well he is in his district attending a funeral, Mr. Speaker, is despicable. MR. HODDER: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: To that point of order again, the hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr.Speaker, I cast no aspersions on the Premier being absent. I said the hon. gentleman who is now absent , in his absence the House Leader (Mr. Marshall), as happened today in the House of Assembly, is responsible. He is the Deputy Premier, the President of the Council, the Government House Leader and,goodness knows, a minister without portfolio, the minister responsible for the Petroleum Directorate and, Mr.

Speaker, if this is a parliamentary government and these Task Forcerecornmendations are as important as the member opposite says,then, Mr. Speaker, obviously . the hon. member is the best person to answer those questions. MR. SPEAKER: White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Order, please! I rule there is no point of order. The hon. the member for Baie Verte - Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 'Recommendation number one, that the road network on the Baie Verte Peninsula be upgraded immediately and pavement be laid over a planned period of 4B03

May 17, 1983 Tape 2250 EC - 2 MR. RIDEOUT: time.' What have we done, Mr. Speaker? Fleur de Lys, Coachman's Cove upgraded and paved, Seal Cove upgraded and paved, Burlington road under reconstruction, the Westport road under reconstruc­ tion, the Ming's Bight road under reconstruction. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Recommendation number one, Mr. Speaker, relates to this particular government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Recommendation number two, Mr.

Speaker, 'that there be a review of the present pro­ cedure for the issuing of crab harvesting licences.' Does that come under this government? No, Mr. Speaker, but we have been fighting it with the people of Fleur de Lys and the people of LaScie and with the people on the Task Force and with the people on the Baie Verte Peninsula Development Association, we have been fighting the federal government with them so that they could put some licences down in that .area. We have been doing that for the last three or four years and we will continue. So recommendation number two, Mr.

Speaker, does not apply in terms of juris­ diction to this particular government. Number 2:2, 4504

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2251 JV - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: "'that any crab licence not prosecuted full time be rescinded t' Mr. Speaker, that again, obviously, is a recommendation applicable to the federal government; 2:3 that four crab licences be issued to fishermen on the Baie Verte Peninsula who will offer to catch for the LaScie plant, federal, there is not much we can do about it, Mr. Speaker, only .support them as we have done; 2:4 that indepth research be conducted into the overall potential of the LaScie plant,especially in the canning and the processing of secondary products and by-products·. Mr.

Speaker, this government has put a lot of dollars and a lot of time and a lot of research into that particular recommendation over the last number of months. There has been a crab processing licence issued for LaScie . The only problem with issuing a processing licence is that we do not have the ability to issue a harvesting licence, so we have gone along with that particular recommendation and we have supported National Sea Products in LaScie in their effort to upgrade and expand into other species the facility that they already have in LaScie.

I do not want to be accused of missing out on .anything here three phase power to be brought into Wild Cove. I guess, Mr. Speaker, that can be said to be a provincial responsibility. We have a programme in place whereby we cost share the bringing into areas in the Province three phase power for industrial development. We have gone to the particular operator in Wild Cove and said that we are prepared to cost share as far as we can the implementation of this particular recommendation. So that is a provincial responsibility,we have taken our responsibility seriously 4Rnc. u 1.; v

May 17, 1983 Tape No . 2251 JV - 2 MR. RIDEOUT : and we have gone to the company and said, 'Look here, we have a programme to help you out on that. If you are prepared to go ahead with it 1 we are prepared to look at the utilization of funding as far as we can from provincial resources.' The potential of the fish plant at Fleur de Lys. Well, the fish plant at Fleur de Lys I have already addressed, Mr. Speaker . There is a crab processing licence issued for that facility by this government; there is a groundfish processing licence 4806

May 17, 1983 Tape 2252 PK - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: issued for that facility by this government, so this government have done all it can with the jurisdiction that it has over licencing as far as that facility goes. '2:10 - No less than four crab licences be issued to the people at Fleur de Lys.' Again I have already dealt with that. That is a federal responsibility. 'That the Provincial Department of Fisheries research the viability of additional fish plants and feeder plants on the Baie Verte Peninsula.' We have done that, Mr. Speaker.

We have looked at Nipper's Harbour, we have looked at Pacquet, and we are presently looking at Seal Cove. And we have had extensive discussions over the last number of months with · the operator on the Baie Verte Peninsula, with National Sea, with tying in an integrated fish processing operation on the Baie Verte Peninsula. And I am very happy to say, Mr.

Speaker, that we are meeting with g~eat success, and that those places that have been identified by the Task Force, I believe that we will be able to accommodate the recommendations that the Task Force makes. 2:12, 2:13, 2:14, and 2;15 are federal, 2•16 - ar~ifical dryers. We have received only recently a proposal from a group of private businessmen on the Baie Verte Peninsula about installing not only artifical dryers, but also solar dryers on an experimental basis on the Baie Verte Peninsula. So that is presently being assessed by the government. Now, Mr. Speaker, I can go on through all of those.

But what I want to say is this - MR. HODDER: What about recommendations 2:20, 2:21, 2:22, 3:1, 3:2, 3:6 and 4:6? MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman would undertake to give me leave to continue, I will undertake to go through each one of them. Is that the understanding? 4807

May 17, 1983 SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. RIDEOUT : .MR. WALSH: MR. RIDEOUT: Tape 2252 Oh, oh! Is that the understanding? By leave! If the hon. gentleman will PK - 2 undertake to give me leave 1 I will go through each .one of them. MR. HODDER: No, I am not going to give you leave. MR. RIDEOUT: No? But I will go back to some of the . ones that the hon. gentleman mentioned, Mr. Speaker. He mentioned 2:21. I believe it was 2:21 he said. MR. HODDER: 2:20. MR.

RIDEOUT: '2:20 - that research into the production of seal meat be vigorously pursued and that a high-powered salesman be engaged by the provincial government to establish an international market. 1 • Now, Mr. Speaker, this government have had very expensive discussions w:i.th the Canadian Sealers Association on the util:i.zation of that half-finished facility at Fleur d~ Lys - half-finished not because of us, Mr. SJ?eaker, half- finished because of th.e Government of Canada. And we have told them,e<e provincial Min:i.ster of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) has told them, we have told them that we will be of assistance ~n any alternatives that the Canadian Sealers Association put forth and they have exl?resaed a keen interest in it, a very keen interest in it, and we have told them that we will be very interested .tn any assistance in any way we can,in any J?roposal that they put :f;orth . to operate Fleur de Lys. Because it is o~vious, ~. Speaker, that ~e federal government do not want Fleur de Lys to OJ?erate. That is obvious. But seal processing, Mr. Speaker, comes under this . government 1and this government have told 4808

May 17,1983 Tape No. 2253 ah-1 MR. RIDEOUT: the people on the Sealers Association-~-1ark Smallr' the President, Harold Small and others- that we will do whatever we have to do to make sure that Fleur de Lys becomes a seal processing centre if that is the route that the Canadian Sealers Association want to go. We have encouraged t~em with money, we have encouraged them with financing, we have encouraged them with research and we are continuing to encourage them up until this day to utilize the half-finished facility in Fleur de Lys. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I can go to others but before I run out of time there are a couple that I want to make particular reference to. The Leader of the Opposition(Mr.Neary) got up today and talked about the silicon operation in LaScie. Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition failed to say that there were samples taken out of that silicon deposit in La Scie and sent away to prime silicon users in the world and the report came back negative~ there were too many impurities in the silicon. Was that mentioned in the House today? SOME HON.MEMBERS: No. MR.RIDEOUT: No.

That was a recommendation that this government did not do anything about. What about the prime recommendation of this report, Mr.Speaker, that this government extend the mandate of the Baie Verte Peninsula Task Force so that they can continue to evaluate and make presentations to government about which of those recommendations,if any, can be identified and take off with. What have we done about that, Mr. Speaker? Did we neglect that? Did we give that up? No, Mr. Speaker, we extended their mandate~ They now have an indefinite mandate to continue to evaluate the things they have identified here 4809

May 17,1983 Tape No . 2253 ah -2 MR .RrDEOUT: and to identify th~m and come to us· and say, 'Can we proceed with this? Do you have somebody in mind to proceed with this? Have you identified an entrepreneur to proceed with this? 1 tve have extended their mand ate. We could have let it drop, Mr . Speaker . We could have put the report on the shelf and let it gather dust . That is not the way this government operates , Mr .Speaker , so we extended their mandate and they now have a mandate that continues on for as long as they deem necessary . To deal with the minister who is Chairman 48~0

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2254 NM - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: of the Resource Policy Committee of Cabinet, the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor), and the other four or five minutes who -make up the Resource Policy Committee of Cabinet: What did we do about the recommendation in here on tourism, Mr. Speaker? We heard the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) mention that briefly today. He did not say anything about the fact that there is a development officer now in the process of being seconded to this group so that they can develop a tourism package for the Baie Verte Peninsula.

He did not talk about the development of a trail,similar to the Viking trail that will be called the Dorset Trail 1 that will lead from the Trans-Canada Highway to Fleur de Lys 1where there are Eskimo carvings going back over 2,000 years ago, the first miners ever to inhabit the North American Continent. He did not mention that, Mr. Speaker.

The Leader of the Opposition got up here today in an attempt to try to do something similar to what he has done here on a number of bther days 1 and that is to leave a little insidious message with the media who will go out and make a report on the Baie Verte Peninsula -Task Force that government has forgotten about it, that qovernment has done nothing abou~, that government does not even know about it exists. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I will tell you something, the people in Baie Verte are going to know because I am going to make sure that the questions and the answers are sent out, as well as the comments that I have made here today, so that the people on the Peninsula know the little games, Mr. Speaker, that the Lioe-ral Opposition makes on their backs. That is what they are going to know, Mr. Speaker • 4Bi1

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2254 NM- 2 MR. RIDEOUT: Like the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) got up in this House, Mr. Speaker, only last week and he took his little darts at work sharing at the asbestos mine in Baie Verte. He did not come -right out and say it, Mr. Speaker, because he wanted to walk that little,thin line, he wanted to walk that fence, Mr. Speaker, he wanted to do that, Mr. Speaker. He did not say too much lest he might find himself at odds with the union,for example.

Because everybody knows,as I aaid in this House last week, everybody knows that there is a collective agreement between the employer and the representatives of the employees, and if you are going to have work sharing, then both groups have got to agree to work sharing. The collective agreement says you call people back by the seniority that they have in the previous operation. I did not put it there, the government did not put it there, it was put there at the agreement of employer and employee. So to get up and talk about work sharing and leave out half the material is just not fair, Mr. Speaker.

It is not fair to the people who have the report what the han. gentleman says, and it is not fair to the peo~le on the Baie Verte Peninsula, who from time to time may have work sharing mentioned to them. 48i2

May 17, 1983 Tape No. 2255 MJ - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: t-lhen it was mentioned to me, Mr. Speaker, I did not mince any words whatsoever. I just went back to them straight,as I do all the time,and I said, 'Work sharing is a great concept. I am in favour of work sharing,but unless your representat~ve, which is the union, and the employer, which is the company, can sit down and work out an agreement on work sharing 1 I cannot tear up your collective agreement, the Government of Newfoundland cannot tear up your collective agreement.' So why ~hould we, Mr.

Speaker,try to leave the impression that we can just for pure political purposes? So that is the kind of thing, Mr. Speaker, that is really not fair about his use of this very excellent report • That is t