Manitoba Hansard — 21 May 1998 (Sitting 51A, 36th Legislature, 4th Session)

36-4-51a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

..... .. · . . . ·· Fourth Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVIII No. 51A- 10 a.m., Thursday, May 21, 1998

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Alben DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Anhur- Virden Steinbach Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Ponage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norben St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupensland Gladstone Crescent wood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Tunle Mountain Fon Garry Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C.

P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

3237 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 21, 1998 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to recognizing the honourable government House leader for Orders of the Day, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us this morning 27 visitors from Elmwood High School Adult ESL Program under the direction of Mrs. June Fahymko. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Concordia (Mr. Doer).

Additionally, we have nine Canadian History Studies students from the University of Manitoba under the direction of Dr. Kathryn Young. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this morning. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minis ter of Natural Resources (Mr.

Cummin gs), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. * (1010 ) Motion agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) JUSTICE Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Commit tee of Supply please come to order. This morning, this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Justice. When the committee last sat, the honourable member for Pembina had six minutes remaining in speaking to the main motion. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Chairman, certainly I am pleased that I can add a few more comments and put them on the record this morning. I thought at the end of my discussion the day before yesterday that I felt I was very close to persuading the members opposite to withdraw the resolution.

However, this morning in my discussion it appears that we still need to do a little bit of convincing, so I intend to use the remainder of the time that I have here to try and support that. Certainly from all the information that I have heard, that I have read of on Hansard that the opposition members have put forward, I submit to you that I see absolutely no reason why our minister should resign.

I believe that the members opposite are on a wild goose chase and are needing something to try and put on record which they feel could be helpful to them in a political sense but really I feel does not add towards the discussion at all. Further to that, I guess what disturbs me here is simply the fact that the members opposite are wanting our minister to resign and if I could use the analogy of, you know, trying to pick on one person and trying to find fault. I find that distasteful, and that is what I have sensed here for the last number of days is taking place.

It is sort of when one part of the body aches, the balance is aching as well. So certainly this morning, I feel that members opposite are looking for things to attack our minister and certainly have not found the evidence that they are looking for. It certainly is not out there. So I certainly, certainly could not support the resolution that they have put in place. Again, I would ask them to withdraw their motion, simply for once and all, admit that there is nothing here. Put it aside and let us move on. I know one of the members, I think it was the member for Bur rows (Mr.

Martindale), said at the outset here, he used the word "never," so I guess they are fairly intent on pursuing this direction.

3238 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1998 An Honourable Member: "Intransigent" is the our streets and cities and looked upon those comments operative word. as such, just as the effluvia that sort of floats up. Mr. Dyck: '" Intransigent' is the operative word" is what I have been told here. So I guess, again as I read, as I listen to what the members opposite are saying, I certainly cannot find evidence here which would supp ort the allegations that they are making and conseq uently I cannot support this resolution. Again, I would encourage them to withdraw.

So with those few words on the record this morning, I will conclude, and again, I would encourage them to remove the resolution that they have put on the books. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Chair, I would like to put a few comments on the record as well at this point in time, hotly in opposition to the honourable colleague's motion from across the table. An Honourable Member: Partly in support. Mr.

Radcliffe: Oh, well, I would not even go so far as to say that because I think what one must do is look at the entire record of the current incumbent Minister of Justice as an individual for whom I have the highest regard. [interjection] The member for Crescentwood is being somewhat facetious today in introducing some irrelevancies into the discussion, which is their wont, because although they may be very well-meaning individuals, they do tend to display a somewhat lack of research and scholarly academic approach to the issues which, I think, all these issues deserve-[i nterjection] I think that when you consider some of the major issues that our Attorney General and the Minister of Justice has done to represent our province- Mr.

Chairperson: Order, please. I have recognized the honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, and I am hearing other comments over and above his remarks. I would ask the committee's co operation. The honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs has the floor. Continue. Mr. Radcliffe: I noted some maunderings and mutterings from across the table, but I was doing my best to ignore them as just sort of emanations coming from those lowly things that carry the waste away from Point of Order Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Chairperson, you have been very good.

In fact, on Tuesday, twice you ruled that there was a point of order because members on the government side are not being relevant to the motion at hand. I would ask you to call the member for River Heights to order and to be relevant to the motion which asks the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) to resign. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for Bu rrows does not have a point of order, but again I would remind all honourable members-[ interjection] Order, please. I would remind all honourable members that there is a motion before us in committee- An Honourable Member: And a serious one. Mr.

Chairperson: -and a very serious motion, and I would ask all honourable members' co-operation to remain relevant. * * * Mr. Chairperson: The honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, to continue. Mr. Radcliffe: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think that when one does review such a motion as has been placed before us, one has to look at the totality of the picture of service that touches upon the individual involved.

I can say that when one looks at the record of our cur rent incumbent on such issues as gun registration, for example, and how our minister has represented our province to the federal authorities, who have been unreasonably trying to impress this doctrinaire of mentality on a reality in western Canada that is wholly inappropriate, one can do nothing but glow with pride with the efforts of our current Minister of Justice.

When one looks at the advocacy level, which our Minister of Justice brings to Treasury Board for support of ju stice issues, I can assure members opposite that they have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of on

May 21, 1998 LEGISLATI VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3239 account of our government. In fact, they would be very proud if they knew of all the efforts to which this current minister goes, and not to derogate, of course, from any of his predecessors, but the current incumbent is the individual who is under discussion at the present time. An Honourable Member: No, the motion is under discussion. Mr. Radcliffe: That is right, but I think that- An Honourable Member: Deal with the issue. Mr.

Radcliffe: Well, the issue deals specifically, of course, with the- An Honourable Member: Tell us what you think the issue is in the appointment of judges? Mr. Radcliffe: Well, that is true, and members opposite are trying to confine me to the specific issue and the incidents arising around them as understanding of the joint statement and the facts that gave rise to the joint statement by the Chief Judge the Honourable Judith Webster and our honourable Minister of Justice in the Chamber of recent date. I would suggest, with the greatest of respect again to members opposite, Mr.

Chair, that while they may have been knee jerking or reacting to statements by other officials who were on the judicial selection committee, what they are doing is relying on innuendo. They are relying on hearsay, and I am not sure, I know that the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) is very familiar with the rules of hearsay, although perhaps he has never had to practise them or apply them in the court on a working setting.

I know from his academic background that he would have been well instructed on what the rules of hearsay are and how the courts do have a prohibition against relying on rules on hearsay evidence. An Honourable Member: goose-remember that one? Hearsay for the Mr. Radcliffe: Indeed, indeed. Yes, the member for St. Johns is alluding to hearsay for the goose. The fact the rules for hearsay in our court system and our discernment of what is actually real and factual and truthful are that one cannot rely upon evidence that one has been informed by a third party.

One can only speak to what one saw themselves, one heard themselves or what the state of one's understanding is. To relay what somebody else tells you that they heard is wholly inappropriate, and honourable colleagues opposite are trying to reconstruct and I would suggest perhaps in good faith but on very ill advice. An Honourable Member: They are not our allegations. *

(1020) Mr. Radcliffe: No, but one must discern the quality of information upon which one judges one's actions and performs, and they are looking to exclamations or declarations from individuals who were not present at the encounter between the Chief Judge and our Minis ter of Justice. I think that is the discerning incident that one must look to if one is going to make any meaningful conclusions on this whole imbroglio between the Minister of Justice and the Chief Judge and the judicial selection committee.

In fact, what we have is a joint statement, cleared through deputies who were chosen objectively, who performed an arm's-length function, who performed it with dignity and respect to both offices, and that the Chief Ju dge of our province is a person who has respected tradition and remained silent because, in fact, judges in our province-the tradition Iongly held and strongly held was that judges speak forth on public issues from the bench, and, short of that, the custom in Manitoba has been that they shall refrain from any further comment into the public milieu. I know the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr.

Mackintosh) feels that they have the liberty to comment on administrative matters, and these are things that should be carefully scrutinized so that our judicia ry do not descend into the common marketplace or the political maelstrom and the winds and tides of fortune on the issues of the current day. The ju diciary must make every strong effort to try and remain objective and removed from the common fray, and to politicize the judiciary, I think, although members opposite may advocate that situation, would be a real derogation of

3240 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 21, 1998 some of the major institutions, major bulwarks of our judicial institution. So, first of all, I think in considering this issue, we must look at our honourable Minister of Ju stice's total record. Has this person been somebody who has been worthy and honourable and skilled to fill the chair that he sits in today? I would say without a doubt this individual performs those functions with distinction, with honour, with learning, with skill.

To point to this one issue of what was, in fact, a misunderstanding I think is very shortsighted, and I think that the process which was invoked mutually by the Chief Judge and the Minis ter of Ju stice to have agents to negotiate and to come to a conclusion of what was in the best interests and the recollection and the analysis of the incident in question has been very appropriate. I believe, Mr. Chairman, that this is, in fact, the ultimate word and conclusion that should be drawn from that incident. Mr. David Faurschou, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair The Minister of Ju stice (Mr.

Toews) stood up in our Assembly and gave a full and complete disclosure. So therefore, to try and make political mileage today on that issue when it has been completely, authoritatively and finally completed is, I think, terribly shortsighted.

I would suggest that the only basis upon which honourable members opposite could form any opinion other than their own maundering and imagination would be to react to the opinions of the head of the Manitoba Bar and the Manitoba Law Society, but, in fact, those individuals were only speculating, were only reacting perhaps to secondary-not to the judge's statement that was presented to the Assembly, not to the judge's statement that was made public. So to rely upon the comments of a third person [interjection] I believe the honourable member for Crescentwood, Mr.

Acting Chair, has a point of order which he wishes to make on this issue. Point of Order Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Mr. Chairperson, I appreciate the fact that the member for River Heights is at least attempting to be relevant to the motion in a slim way, and that is a change. However, he has now put false information on the record. The statement in the House was not a statement of the judge.

It was not signed by the judge and we have no indication, other than hearsay, that, in fact, the ju dge supports the statement, so he ought not to put incorrect information on the record, particularly as a minister of the Crown. It is very inappropriate for him to do so. The statement was a statement by the minister, and the minister claimed without any corroboration whatsoever that it was also the judge's statement. We have been waiting to hear the judge's actual written statement that she put to file some days before the minister made his damage control announcement in the House. The Acting Chairperson (Mr.

Faurschou): The honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, on the same point of order. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chair, with respect to my honourable colleague opposite's vain attempt to introduce a point of order, I would suggest, with the greatest of respect, that what he is doing is trying to introduce and to use my time for speaking as an opportunity to introduce his factual misinterpretation of the facts. In fact, what he was referencing was a dispute over the facts. It was not an indication as to process.

It was not a comment on anything due to the order of the regulation of this committee or of the speech that I was making. So I would urge the Chair to dismiss this silly comment out of hand, because with the greatest of respect to the individual involved who presents it, I would suggest that it was ill founded, ill advised and inopportune. [interjection] Oh, not intemperate, no. Not intemperate. I would never accuse the member opposite of being intemperate. An Honourable Member: But lacking in substance. Mr. Radcliffe: As my honourable colleague says, lacking in substance. The Acting Chairperson (Mr.

Faurschou): Order, please. Have you concluded your remarks on the point of order? Mr. Radcliffe: On the point of order, yes.

May 21, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 324 1 The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): Thank you. On the point of order raised by the honourable memb er for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), it is clearly a dispute over the facts. He does not have a point of order. *** The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): The Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs is free to continue with his remarks. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr.

Chair, I think that if we are going to discern accurately what actually transpired between the two relevant parties, and this is the core and essence of the dispu te, we must go to the two virtual parties, the two actual parties who were present at the conversation, at the meeting in the office of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) , and there has been a definitive statement negotiated by agents, discussed by agents, exchanged by agents-[interjection] An Honourable Member: The truth negotiated in the back rooms. *

(1030) The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): Order, please. The minister is making his remarks. I would expect him to be off ered the cordiality of this comm ittee regarding his remarks. Just one point in regard to the time, an allotment is not used during a point of order. The minister still has 17 minutes remaining. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr.

Chair, I would urge this committee, and I would urge my colleagues here today to look to the truth, to look at what actually happened, what has been reported to us, not reading, trying to discern their facts from the banner headlines of the local journals or even retail of what individuals may have discussed at subsequent meetings of which we do not know what the parameters of those discussions were. We do not know what happened when the Chief Judge went back to the courthouse.

We do not know to whom she spoke in private, in confidence, and there was no transcript of those recordings and so therefore- An Honourable Member: That is why we need an inquiry. Mr. Radcliffe: Ah-and we have had the analysis of both individuals who were present at this encounter. Due to the traditions of this province of the silence of the bench, of our custom and tradition of how the bench do speak only from the bench, we can only presume that if the Chief Judge felt that there was a travesty of justice that went to process that, as my honourable colleague for St.

Johns has said, there would be a further emanation from the bench, and there has been none. Therefore, we have the assurance of the Min ister of Justic e that this was a statement to which both parties had addressed their attention and both parties have asserted that this was an accurate representation of their conversation, and that is the salient point, Mr. Chair, that they are recounting what they were personally involved in and what anybody else may comment on who was absent, who was not present at that meeting, is wholly, totally irrelevant.

They may have honestly held opinions, they may have-but, quite honestly, the opinions or the feelings or the recollections of the head of the Manitoba Law Society or the Manitoba Bar as to something that they were not present at is wholly irrelevant to this situation. Therefore, when one considers the overall administration of this incumbent on such issues as Bill C-58, as youth justice, as staffing for political [interjection] Bill 68, sorry. My honourable colleague for Gladstone (Mr. Rocan) corrects my nomenclature.

But nonetheless, on young offenders, on the whole very sensitive issue of human relations at Headingley, on funding for RCMP and municipal police funding, on sensitiv ity to aboriginal justice issues, one can only come to the conclusion that this is an individual who is eminently suited, eminently skilled to fill this chair. [interjection] Oh, and the honourable member for St.

James is trying to say that the Minister of Justice is responsible for fostering crime in the community, and I would reject that allegation totally out of hand as something that is erroneous, irrelevant and irreverent and- An Honourable Member: With those few remarks. Mr. Radcliffe: -and with those few remarks, yes. Thank you very much. I must beg the indulgence of the Chair in this committee and my colleagues that I will

3242 LEGIS LATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1998 now have to excuse myself to withdraw to another duty this morning. But I would urge colleagues opposite to see the error of their ways, amend this motion by withdrawing it out of hand and admit to us all that in fact they may have had a concern for public opinion and justice but that it was erroneously held and without foundation and not a scintilla of fact in this issue. So I would urge all colleagues to reject this issue out of hand. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): The honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs has concluded his remarks.

Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Mr. Chairman, when I found out that this motion had been placed in front ofthis committee, I felt I had to make a few comments with regard to this motion. It is a serious motion, and one cannot take something like this lightly. I would first like to say that, with regard to our colleague the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews), I believe and know with certainty, that the Minister of Justice is very well respected within his own department, has the complete support of all the staff within the Department of Justice.

He has brought in, along with his predecessors in Justice, many initiatives in the field of justice that are addressing today's problems of crime on the streets, in our cities and in the rural areas, and I think many of the initiatives that he has brought in and activated are very commendable to our Minister of Justice. So I would like to really begin by saying that he has in fact received my whole support with the initiatives that he has taken on.

Of course, being Minister of Government Services, there are many Ju stice initiatives within Government Services with regard to the capital spending that we are carry ing forward to ensure that crime is being addressed within the province of Manitoba and within our cities and rural areas. When I look at the motion, Mr. Chairman-and I do not want to spend a whole lot of time on it because I do not have too many points to make about it-the motion is quite simplistic, but I think totally unfounded. Mr.

Chairperson in the Chair When a motion like that comes forward, you would expect that there would be a sufficient amount of evidence that would be tabled to support making a motion of that type. However, with this kind of a motion on the table here today, based on the background that was used to bring this motion forward, I find that it is almost totally ludicrous that a motion could be made based on the information that is available today. The motion is basically based on speculation and hearsay. One knows that if you want to start a-a friend of mine who was in municipal politics at Ste.

Agathe said that when he was in the armed forces, if there was not a rum our started at ten o'clock in the morning, he would start one. Usually he was qu ite successful in getting the rumour spread around the entire base. Basically, I think we are looking at the same thing here with this motion. It is the fact that the basis for it is simply based on speculation and hearsay, in cases second-and third-hand hearsay, that does not really add any credence to the motion whatsoever. I would like to say that, with regard to the selection of judges, there is

an act in place that is followed, and I am fully confident and comfortable that the legislation that is there was followed through the process. Everything that has been brought forward from the opposition side has not been able to be substantiated and, in fact, is simply speculation, what they think happened. Mr.

Chairman, I would like to also say that there is probably a prime example of what is happening here that we could display, and there is a game that, when you get a number of people together, you sit them around in a circle in a room and the essence of the game is that the first person whispers a message to the first person sitting next to them and this message in tum is whispered to people around the room as you go around . Then, at the end of the line, the message is shared with the group, and it is compared to the initial message.

The surprising thing about this game is that the message gets totally turned around in terms of what the content is by the time it passes through this group of people. So this is what we have happening right here, is the fact that the message goes from one person to another person to another person and then the message comes out and it is misconstrued, it is changed. That is just from the simple fact of having this information passed along, and I think that this game that I am

May 21, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3243 describing is a perfect example of what has happened in this case. One person has told another person who has told a third person, and the message gets changed to the point where there is much speculation, innuendo. *

(1040) Everybody is standing out there making public statements based on hearsay. None of the people that were involved can support that. In fact, what the ministerial statement that my colleague the Justice minister tabled in the House, which was an agreement between him and the Chief Judge in terms of what the content would be, should be and is the final word in this whole saga that has been perpetrated by members across the way. There is just no point in even pursuing it any further. The message has been tabled; it is there. The facts are clearly laid out.

It is agreed to by the two people who had that conversation. Nobody else knows what that conversation was. From that point on, it was strictly based on hearsay as to what was being said. So, Mr. Chairman, that alone should be substantial evidence to render this motion totally-and should require the withdrawal of this motion, because there is not anybody in society today that basically, if individuals wanted to, they could easily, based on speculation, make some very damaging remarks about individu als that they are doing things that they ought not to do. This could be totally, totally made-up type of information.

But once that is said, it is very difficult to try to get that neutralized. I think that in this particular case with this motion is the fact that the motion is based not on evidence but on hearsay. I do not think it should go any further than to have it withdrawn from this committee.

Another example I would like to share is the fact that why this motion should be withdrawn is that when we deal with groups and they appoint representatives to speak for that group, there are two avenues that one must take in terms of being able to-if you are just meeting with the representative of the group per se, and they say: this is what this group has asked me to convey to you, that in order for a reaction to it and a positive action to what was being said, you need to have some sort of confirmation that there was an agreement amongst the group that this was indeed what that person was supposed to tell you.

So there is usually encapsulated in those comments by that person a written document or at least minutes that would back up what that individual is supposed to convey in terms of the message. So, from that point on, there is confidence that whoever is going to take that message and react to it, there is that supportive documentation there to back up that message.

If there is not that kind of confirmation by minutes or by written presentation, then one has to take what that individual said very carefully as to whether indeed one would even repeat the comments that that person had said, because there is no substantiated evidence there to support what that person relayed to you was indeed what that group actually told that person to say. So you go through this whole process of having this kind of information relayed, and one has to be very careful that it does not get misconstrued. Mr.

Chairman, this is what exactly has happened in this case, that it was based on what one person thought another person said. So you get this happening. Going back on that issue and this motion, I think it is a serious motion, but I think that one has to also realize that you cannot just place a motion like this on the floor based on hearsay. You must have some evidence to back that up, hard evidence. There is none; I contend that there is none. It is strictly hearsay and speculation.

So, therefore-! indicated earlier, I was not going to make too many remarks, my remarks were not going to be too long-1 think, based on that alone, this motion should do nothing else but be withdrawn from this committee because it is not worthwhile bringing forward, and in fact it is not even worthwhile documenting it on the books because it is strictly an incredible type of -it is not backed up by any kind of evidence. So with those few remarks, Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): Mr.

Chairman, I just have a few brief remarks this morning in regard to the motion we are currently debating. It is a motion which disturbs me to the most extreme. It is

3244 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May2 1, 1998 a motion that is based, as has been mentioned in the past, on hearsay and speculation and is completely without substantiation. Therefore, being it is most inappropriate, I would like to state at this time on the record that I encourage members opposite for their reconsideration of this motion, because I would strongly encourage them to withdraw. It is for their own credibility that the withdrawal of this motion would in fact go a long way. However, members opposite, that is certainly to their decision.

I would like at this point in time to bring my perspective of the Justice minister and his abilities in his current role as Attorney General. I have had the opportunity to get to know him extremely well through an election and as a new member of the House. I have no preconceived understandings of the job description nor do I have any prior knowledge of Mr. Toews, the minister's ability, but I have come to respect him to the utmost highest degree. He certainly has the ability, coming from his experience and in his career and the understanding of the job to which he is tasked at the present time.

I think of no other person who has that experience and respect that our current minister does exhibit. I would like to look at- Point of Order Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): A point of order, Mr. Chairperson. I know from time to time we all get caught up in debate back and forth across the table, but I think that the person that is speaking deserves the respect of all committee members. So I would ask that you call those that are having individual conversations to order. Mr.

Chairperson: The honourable minister does not have a point of order, but I would ask the co-operation of all members to give the honourable member for Portage Ia Prairie, who has the floor, the due consideration for his remarks on the record. * * * Mr. Faurschou: I will not belabour the debate. It is my own personality that believes that one should be short and to the point in one's remarks. I would just like to ask the members opposite to be cognizant of the initiatives of the current Attorney General (Mr.

Toews) and what has been accomplished over his short tenure and his positions in regard to a number of pieces of legislation. I would like perhaps to draw specific note to the initiatives that have taken place in my own constituency, that having the only community crime prevention centre outside the city of Winnipeg in my constituency, and the support that has been provided for it by the current minister in this government. Point of Order Mr. Martindale: On a point of order, Mr. Chairperson, my point of order refers to the rule on relevancy in the Manitoba rule book.

Earlier in the Justice Estimates you ruled that members talking about policing issues were not being relevant, and I would ask you to ask this member to address the motion on the floor, which calls for the resignation of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews). Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for Burrows does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. I would remind all members of the committee that the motion, the way it is worded, allows a broad base in terms of discussion. I am making a serious effort to keep the members relevant on the motion, and I am listening very carefully.

I will draw the attention to members when I do believe that there is not relevance to the motion that is before us. But the honourable member for Burrows does not have a point of order, and I would ask the honourable member for Portage to continue. * * * * (1 050) Mr. Faurschou: It is not insofar a policing issue which I address. It is very relevant to the motion because the motion, as I say, is based on speculation and hearsay and draws into question the credibility of the current Minister of Justice.

This particular dialogue to which I engage at the present time is in fact very relevant on that point because it does speak to the credibility of the current minister in his initiatives and overall caring and understanding of community and his portfolio where justice and community are so much intertwined. As well, also I might mention the initiative in regard to the Young Offenders Act and that the

May 21, 1998 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 3245 minister has in fact attempted to gamer the federal government's attention to this particular piece of legislation and how only four provinces, including ourselves, supported it at the outset of that dialogue. But then the Province of Saskatchewan came on board after the terrible incident at North Battleford involving two young persons.

As I said, I will be short and to the point, but I would once again like to encourage the members opposite to reconsider this particular motion and to withdraw it because of its premise of being unsubstantiated and the credibility of not only themselves in this motion but the ongoing workings of this committee which are extremely important, and I would like to reiterate that as the perspective of a new member of the Manitoba Legislative Assembly. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Chairperson: I am going to interrupt these proceedings in the interests of making some progress for five minutes and call a recess for five minutes. So we will resume-the honourable member for St. Johns, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): It is extremely unusual for the Chair to unilaterally call a recess when there is no issue calling for a recess. There is no request, there is no matter that would suggest that a recess is in the interests of anyone, and I ask, Mr. Chair, what the reason would be for a recess at this particular time. There is a motion before the committee.

We have called for the question repeatedly, and the government continues to filibuster. Now why is the Chair seeking further delay in this matter? Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for St. Johns does have a point of order. * * * Mr. Chairperson: I would ask if there is unanimous consent of the committee in the interests of-or what is the will of the committee? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Well, I just wanted to put on the record that I was in fact the one who suggested a five-minute recess, but I am certainly prepared to continue talking at this time. Mr.

Chairperson: The honourable member for St. Johns, on a new point of order. Point of Order Mr. Mackintosh: Just as the Justice minister has corrupted the Chief Judge of this province-he corrupted her office-he now whispers in the ear of the Chair of this committee, giving instructions to the Chair to recess this committee. Shame, I say. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Mr. Mackintosh: Shame. Does he not have any respect for the office of this Assembly? Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The member for St. Johns is out of order. Mr. Mackin tosh: You go to order. Who are you? Who do you take orders from?

This committee or him? Shameful. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for St. Johns is out of order. An Honourable Member: On a point of order, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable Minister of Family Services, on the same point of order. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson- Mr. Mackintosh: I appeal the ruling, Mr. Chair. Mrs. Mitchelson: With all due respect, the member for St. Johns, I think I was recognized on a point of order, and I would like to have the opportunity to speak, maybe in a little calmer manner than he portrays himself from time to time. Mr.

Chairperson, I want to indicate that it is not unusual as a minister that has sat in the chair through the Estimates process, there are occasions when a

3246 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANIT OBA May 21, 19 98 minister does request a five-minute recess for very valid and legitimate reasons. Usually that is granted. I know that my critic and I do have the opportunity many times, sometimes to set just a short recess aside ahead ofti me, or there does come a point in time where a minister who has been sitting in the chair for a long period of time has requested a short recess for personal reasons. So it is not unusual, and I have in the past requested the Chair to ask for that five-minute recess on my behalf.

I think it has always been accommodated in a pretty fair and reasonable manner without people losing control and acting in a very inappropriate fashion and taking on the Chair of the committee in the manner that the member for St. Johns has. I think it is very unprofessional. It is very abusive. I would ask that you call him to order and ask him to apologize for the manner- An Honourable Member: Oh, really. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, I am trying very hard to bring some sense of order to this committee and have all honourable members recognize and realize that they should act like honourable members, not like-well, and I will not use any words, but I will indicate not like the kind of-1 mean, I would be embarrassed personally and be very embarrassed for my party if l had a member of our caucus acting in the manner the member for St. Johns has. I feel- Mr. Mackintosh: Oh, is that not something. You should be embarrassed with your minister. An Honourable Member: Make a ruling.

An Honourable Member: Yes, you are really moving it along, are you not? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I hate to be shouted- An Honourable Member: The Chair called for order. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable Minister of Family Services, on the point of order. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I hate to be shouted down by the member for St. Johns in his rude and unruly manner which he often portrays, not only in this committee but in the House.

I would ask that you call him to order immediately and try to get him to calm down a little bit and act in a prof essional manner, which is a manner I think that we were all elected in to represent our constituents. I would be embarrassed to represent my constituents that way. Mr. Chairperson: On the matter of the point of order, there is- An Honourable Member: Mr. Chairperson, I believe I had asked to speak to the same point of order, and I believe it is a custom that both sides of the table have an opportunity to do so. Mr.

Chairperson: On the issue of the point of order, there was-I recognized that the honourable member for St. Johns had a point of order, and on a new point of order, there was not-1 asked for unanimous consent to consider whether or not a five-minute recess would be in order. I have not received that. There have been some things that have been put on the record reflecting on this Chair. The honourable minister or nobody has influenced this Chair in this decision and what I asked for, and I want that perfectly clear to the committee.

That is a decision that was made by the Chair and, erroneously, I did not ask initially for unanimous consent. I accept all responsibility for that. I ask for the committee's co operation in bringing this matter to a resolve. We can listen to points of order here all morning. Now what is the will of the committee? I asked if there was unanimous consent for a five-minute break to bring this matter to a conclusion. Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I feel the committee is not required for-I do not think they require a five minute recess at this time, so Jet us carry on. Mr.

Chairperson: There is not unanimous consent for a five-minute break. ***

May 21, 1998 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3247 Mr. Toews: Before I make some additional remarks on this motion, I am wondering if the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) has had his say. * (1 100) Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, on the recent point of order which I was not recognized to speak on, although I had asked to do so, we have come to a point in this committee where the Chair unfortunately made a serious procedural error; he has apologized for that, and I accept his apology. My concern here is that there is apparently procedural disagreement which is seriously impeding the work of this committee.

It is our understanding that there is an agreement to go to a vote on this motion finally after a great long filibuster, that that is the agreement indicated by the government House leader. We are not prepared to negotiate the question of the minister speaking before a vote.

If the minister wishes to speak and to continue to filibuster and would finally address the actual substance of the motion, that would be fine, but procedurally there was a serious error and I accept the apology of the Chairperson on that, but it is something which we can hardly be expected to not react to, given the unfortunate precedent of the complete abandonment of the rules of this House for the MTS debate.

Virtually every time there is an issue of real substance, it seems that the rulings of the Chair do not appear to be consistent with the procedures of the House and, in effect, favour procedures which then go to the favour of the govern ment. So I appreciate the Chair's apology. I am sorry for the intemperate remarks of the Minister of Family Services (Mrs.

Mitchelson), who, I think, was reacting completely inappropriately to a very valid concern that any time the rules of a committee are broken by either party to the table or by the Chair, it must be raised very, very strenuously and very quickly because the only thing that protects the right of members to speak, the privileges of members, is the fair application consistently over time of the rules of this House. So I think the member for River East (Mrs.

Mitchelson), the honourable minister, ought to understand that any time procedural rules are breached, no matter by whom, we will react strenuously and quickly, and we will stop that procedure from happening, indeed, as has happened, and I am a grateful to the Chair to his apology. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for Crescentwood, I presume, was speaking on the point of order, and the honourable member for Crescentwood does not have a point of order. * * * Mr. Toews: Mr.

Chair, I do have a few additional comments to make, and I understand that it is the will of the committee that this matter go to vote as quickly as possible. So I will add a few more comments before that proceeds. I want to respond specifically in respect of the matter raised by the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) last date in dealing with the issue of the bilingual judges, and I think, again, illustrates how the member is willing to take certain basic facts and twist them beyond an acceptable proper

interpretation. The member indicated that there were, in fact, two bilingual Prov incial Court judges in this province, and that is correct, Provincial Court judges. He indicated that one was going on a leave, and that is correct. In fact, that was a concern that was raised with me in my responsibilities of ensuring that the courts have the appropriate resources, a matter that I have discussed on various occasions over the last number of months, not just with members of the court but other individuals as well. The second judge, he indicated, was doing report, but that the report was finished.

Therefore, this judge was now free for regular duties. Again, I have no quarrel with that. Unfortunately, the way the member twisted the facts is that he suggested that the reason I advanced the fact that this judge was doing this report and he was now free would be evidence in fact that we do not require another bilingual judge. In fact, I have been very clear in my statements that it is the results of the report, not the writing of the report, that caused the government anticipation that the implementation of the report, which I have had discussions about, will require additional French language services.

So, here, on a very basic factual matter, the member takes the facts, twists them in a totally inappropriate manner to suggest

3248 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, I998 that I have somehow misled the House or misled the committee. Again, another example about how the member really is not interested in the facts at all. So I would just like to say, and perhaps it is the member who misunderstood, that the government anticipates that the implementation of the report done by that second bilingual judge will require additional French language services. In fact, this was a discussion that I have had with members of the Franco-Manitoban community.

So, again, I just wanted to illustrate that this is a member who takes facts, twists them, and then cites that as an example to show that my word is not as good as his. Well, if we need any indication of this member's word, I need only refer this committee to the editorials written in the Saturday Free Press, May 2, 19 98, page A I8, as well the Free Press editorial by Brian Cole, dated Saturday, January 17 , I998, at page A I2. The Saturday editorial of January I7 is entitled Tim Sale's Creative Counting. It is a wonderful analysis of the thinking of that member, and it certainly does him no service.

The second editorial-and I am not going to go through it; committee members can certainly do that on their own-indicated again an example of the weakness of when this MLA, the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), tried to twist facts regarding Manitoba's sunny economic horizon. So I would ask this comm ittee to discount any of the comments made by the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale). So if there is unanimous consent at this time, I am prepared to let this matter go to a vote. Mr. Chairperson: Is the committee ready for the question? Some Honourable Members: Quest ion. Mr.

Chairperson: The question is as follows: The committee recommends that the Justice minister now resign. Voice Vote Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Yea. Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Chairperson: All those in favour of the motion, please say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Chairperson: All those opposed, please say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. *( II IO) Mr. Chairperson: In my opinion, the Nays have it. Formal Vote An Honourable Member: A count-out, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chairperson: A formal vote has been requested by two members. This

section of the committee will now proceed to the Chamber for a formal vote. Comm ittee recess for a formal vote in the Chamber. The committee recessed at II: I 0 a.m. After Recess The committee resumed atii:5I a.m. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): The comm ittee will come to order. Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of a department. Accordingly, we shall defer consideration ofthis item and now proceed with consideration of the next line.

Before we do that, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce his staff at this point in time. Seeing none, we will now proceed to line one. Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, in this area of Estimates, we traditionally have a wide scope for discussion in terms of the overall administration of the department. I am very concerned that the minister appears not only to be at variance with senior members of the bar in their accounts of certain matters that we have discussed at

May 21, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3249 great length in this committee, but indeed at variance with his own words. Just before we broke to vote on the matter, Mr. Chairperson, the minister spent some time indicating that I had twisted the facts in regard to the need for a bilingual judge, and he indicated that this was somehow inappropriate because he had never suggested that the reason he needed a bilingual judge was that he had a ju dge going on leave and he had a judge undertaking work on a report. Mr.

Chairperson, I want to put on the record the minister's actual words from Hansard on Thursday, May 7, page 2754, a response of Mr. Toews: "We have in this province two . . . judges who are bilingual French and English. One of those judges is going on a leave of absence. Another . . . of those judges is conducting a review of French language services which we know will impact on our ability to deliver French language services in court.

The member would be the first to come to this House if we could not provide the adequate, constitutionally required French language services in a trial, and if that case was dismissed, I would get the blame. Yes, Madam Speaker, I need a French language judge and the people of Manitoba need a French language judge." Those are the words of the minister. He used the fact that one was going on leave as a justification for a judge being required in French language. He used the ju stification of a judge undertaking a report as a justification for having another judge appointed. Mr. Chairperson, those are his own words.

He is convicted by his own words. Indeed, that was his rationale in the House for saying he needed another judge. Then he has the temerity to speak in this committee as though these words had never been spoken. Now, there are two alternatives here. Either the minister genuinely forgot that he had said these things in the House, that he had used this justification and now attempted to back away from that because it was embarrassing, or he simply does not have any recall about what is true, and that is even more troubling, Mr.

Chairperson, because this minister said, I needed a French judge, and then he gave as a rationale for that need the fact that Ju dge Chartier was doing a report. Well, he has acknowledged the report is completed. He said Ju dge Gregoire was going on leave. That is true, perhaps next summer, in July or August of I 999, certainly more than enough time to have more French appointments to the bench if that was required by a regular and due process. Mr. Chairperson, this minister has difficulty recalling his own words, his own justification for things as important as the appointment of judges.

I think it is very clear why we have lost confidence in this minister's ability to administer and to see to the enforcement of justice in this province. So I wanted to put on the record the fact that the minister's words in this committee this morning are seriously at variance with the minister's words to the Hou se on May 7 on page 2754 of Hansard, Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Toews: Mr. Chair, in fact, those exact words indicate my position very, very clearly.

The member is suggesting that the issue with respect to the ju dge submitting the report and doing the report is the only reason why that judge was unavailable for other duties. In fact, what those exact words indicate is that in fact the study of French language services would have an impact on our ability to provide French language services. Again, this is a deliberate way of this member using the words to a very narrow

interpretation to his advantage and simply a misrepresentation of the very clear words that are there. Again, it demonstrates this particular member's ability to distort the meaning of statistics, or even words, or to criticize without being constructive. Now the member seems to enjoy a debate that does not get into the substance of issues, but simply to determine how many angels can dance on the head of a needle. That is what his forte is.

I prefer to deal with more substantive things, things that have relevance for the administration of justice in this province, and for this member to make that kind of suggestion, again, demonstrates the style of attack. I think, as I indicated earlier in my comments, the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) has been noted for that kind of attack. In the May 2 editorial of the Winnipeg Free Press, it is a very clear analysis of how this member takes certain statistics and totally twists

3250 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 21, 19 98 them so that they bear no meaning or no relationship to reality and then expects others to agree with his twisted

interpretation. In fact, those are exact words of the editorial in saying: "In any case, Mr. Sale"-and I am quoting here-"should be directed to spend more time outlining ways in which the NDP would build on the economic growth that is clearly taking place rather than twisting numbers to the point where they become meaningless." Again, this is exactly the same kind of situation that he is engaging here again. On the 17 th, again the point under the heading May 17-source is the Winnipeg Free Press-editorial entitled Tim Sale's Creative Counting, and again I am quoting that: Tim Sale is a desperate man.

As Industry critic for the New York- An Honourable Member: I think you got the date wrong. It is not May 17 . Mr. Toews: Oh, I am sorry, it is January 17 , 1998. As Industry critic for the New Democratic Party, it is Mr. Sale's job to criticize the government for whatever role it may play in helping to create jobs in Manitoba . So what it says: As he comes under greater and greater difficulty to find a problem, he becomes more and more creative. I think we all know what that is a polite way of saying about the member for Crescentwood. What they say is: Mr.

Sale's effort to discred it the Finance minister is a classic case of how to manipulate numbers to produce what you want to show. Again, in this committee he is taking one sentence attributing a very specific, limited meaning to it and then saying the minister is misleading this committee. In fact, I stand by exactly what I said, and if any further clarification is needed, my comments of this morning indicate exactly what I was stating, and what I was objecting to was the twisted way in which the member for Crescentwood engages in debate. The Acting Chairperson (Mr.

Tweed): The time being 12 noon, I am interrupting proceedings. The Committee of Supply will resume sitting this afternoon following the conclusion of Routine Proceedings. * (1010 ) ENVIRONMENT Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Good morning. Will the Comm ittee of Supp ly please come to order. This morning, this

section of the Comm ittee of Supp ly will be resuming consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Environment. It was agreed at the outset of the Estimates for this department that questions could proceed in a general manner with line items to be passed once the questioning has been concluded. Accordingly, I will open the floor for questions. Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Chairman, the last time we met we were discussing or just beginning to discuss the new initiative in terms of recycling, and that is the used oil recycling initiative.

In terms of the other recycling projects that are currently going on in the province, there is a levy on used tires, there is one on diapers, I believe there is one on liquor bottles, and of course, on containers. All these levies were I believe imposed upon the consumers in this province by the government. Now this oil levy, the money that is used to recycle oil filters and containers and so on, again, it is imposed upon the consumers by a nonprofit industry organization, the Manitoba Association for Resource Recovery Corporation. Can the minister tell us why there was a change and who initiated this process?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): am happy to report, Mr. Chairman, that the initiative originated with the industry itself. I do not know, I speculate I suppose that maybe the industr y seeing the kind of progress being made in provinces, western provinces especially, in areas of the waste stream, perhaps thought they would take the initiative rather than having something imposed on them, maybe design something that would be acceptable on their own, which appears to have been what happened.

There were discussions about six years ago between the Canadian Council of Ministers of Environment and the industry, and the process evolved up until early this year when a regulation at our government level enabled the industry through the MA RRC to carry on with its program. That is a brief history of how it came about. Mr. Dewar: Does the minister have a concern that this-well, it is a tax. Just the other day, I purchased

May 21, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 32 51 some oil and I purchased an oil filter, and there was a 50-cent levy that I had to pay for the oil filter and 30 or 40 cents for the oil. Is the minister concerned that this nonprofit group has the ability to place this levy upon Manitobans, and what exactly is a government's role in this program? Mr. McCrae: Well, of course, there are always concerns when you are developing something new or different. We want to ensure that the program is working the way it is designed to and achieving the results that are expected of it.

The expected results are something that are shared between the MARRC and the government. Under the regulation there are require ments for the filing of business plans and information with which the government can then make a determination on whether it is achieving the expected results. So, yes, we are into new territory, but in a way not so, because we have some experience in these other areas to which the honourable member referred. He made the mistake of calling it a tax, which I am very sensitive about, because none of this money flows to the government.

Of course it is going to get called that, and I have no illusions about it. I have no doubt that the honourable member will call it that for his own particular reasons, too. The point is we have found in the past with programs like this an initially grudging sort of approach by consume rs who buy a quart of oil or buy a filter or something like that, because, oh, boy, here is another new charge. But this program started with a fairly comprehensive commun ications package, and I think there is a pretty good level of understanding of what it is we are trying to achieve.

People do not like the idea that millions of litres of oil are sort of unaccounted for, and to think that those litres might be in some inappropriate place in our environment is on people's minds too. * (1 020) The time is right for this sort of thing, because people are quite willing to accept the concept that the polluter pays principle should be at work. In this case the manufacturers and distributors of these types of products are doing the right thing. There are the safeguards in place in terms of reporting, and all information respecting this is posted on the public registry so that-it is our program.

It is the honourable member's program. It is the oil company's program. It is everybody's program. Mr. Dewar: What is the government's role in this program? Do you have a representative who sits on this organization and, if so, who is that individual? Mr. McCrae: The government does not have representation on the MARRC board but, as I have pointed out through the reporting requirements and business plan filing and that sort of information sharing, the government is not outside the information sphere, as it were. Mr.

Dewar: So this organization reports a business plan, tables a business plan with the minister's office? Mr. McCrae: Yes. Mr. Dewar: Has that plan been tabled with the minister? I am interested in the revenues that are anticipated from this levy and what are the actions, the planned actions of this organization to try to recycle some of the-and again it has been estimated that there are 14 million litres of used oil that are discarded. It talks about the incredible damage that one litre of oil can have upon fresh water. If you can just tell us the long-term plan that this organization has to recycle this oil. Mr.

McCrae: The business plan is a public document, and if the honourable member would like, we can make it available for him. Everything that the program does is measured against that business plan which is subject to examination and approval by my department. The revenues to which the honourable member referred are subject to audit by an independent auditor whose job it is would be to look at those revenues and make a determination based on the business plan, whether the revenues are appropriate, too little, too much.

If too little, then the MARRC board would then be required to, you know, recommend changes, upward in this case. If there is too much revenue, then that also can be looked at and recommendations can flow from

3252 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 21, 19 98 it. It is not my program in this sense. I am very pleased that the government has an oversight function here, but the more we can get these sorts of programs that get the polluter involved in a solution to the problems, the better public buy-in is achievable. Mr. Dewar: Well, if an individual purchases an oil filter or oil and has some concerns regarding the operations of this organization, what type of recourse do they have if they have concerns?

I know it was brought to my attention that-again, there has been nothing confirmed, but apparently it is part of the recycling of oil filters that the oil itself would be extracted from the filter, but the actual filter, the paper filter and the metal container will be discarded. Now that is kind of a concern to me. Where would I go to verify that type of concern? Mr. McCrae: It is incorrect that the metal filters are simply discarded in some landfill somewhere. They are recycled too and the metal in the filter is recycled metal.

It goes to scrap metal people and is recycled into whatever uses those things are recycled into. With respect to the cardboard component of the filter, that too is shredded. It is the type of material that can be used to make things like those fence posts the honourable member is no doubt aware of or curb stops and that sort of thing. The Mi ller Environmental company is looking at possibly getting involved in re-refining of the oil. They may be doing that, but the oil presently, some of it is reprocessed into diesel fuel and some of it is re-refined in Saskatchewan at the present time.

It becomes a fuel supplement in the western Canadian market. So, basically, when you compare what is happening now with what was happening before, we have sure come a long way and we should be pleased about that. If the honourable member has any ideas that might improve what is going on in this area, his ideas would be welcome, I am sure, by us, but certainly, I am sure, also by the MARR C. Mr. Dewar: Is there an individual within the MARRC that someone can take their concerns to? I am pleased that the minister was able to deal with the issue of filters, but there may be other issues.

Because this is a nonprofit organization somewhat removed from government that is placing this levy on consumers, I just think there should be some mechanism in place so that people can raise their concerns and have their issues addressed. Mr. McCrae: I am very happy that the honourable member is asking these questions. We will provide him with the name and address and phone number of the executive director of the MARRC, so that he can share ideas or ask questions directly of the MARRC. We will make that available to the honourable member. Mr. Dewar: Thank you.

In the minister's opening comments, he raised the issue of the Environmental Youth Corps. Maybe the minister can provide us some more information regarding this initiative of the government in terms of the budget and how this is financed, which projects have been approved and a list of projects and so on, the budget for each, and how the corps is promoted in Manitoba? How would somebody-if you are interested in finding out some more information about this, where would you approach? The minister's office? Or is there a separate organization that would have information available? Mr.

McCrae: Funding for this initiative is approved on a year-by-year basis by the Sustainable Development Comm ittee of Cabinet, decisions for funding. This program is currently in its seventh year. Total funding to environmental projects for this fiscal year, 19 97- 98-no, I am sorry, last fiscal year-was $1 14 ,260. That was as of Jan uary 31 of this year. Intake of applications was scheduled for June 20, July 18 , August 22 and September 19 of last year. A total of 54 applications were processed involving over 7,700 youthful Manitobans.

There were 54 applications; 46 projects were approved; two were deferred; six declined funding. A total of 17 youths were provided employment opportunities in supervisory or project co-ordinating roles. It is a program to promote maximized local involvement and volunteer participation of youth between the ages of six and 24 in environment-related projects. In 19 97-98, there were 39,660 youths involved. That is fantastic, in my opinion, not because of what got done so much as what got learned along the way.

I have been believing for some time that, as much as the honourable member and I think our-1 should not talk about our generation because I think I am older

May 21, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MB LY OF MAN ITOBA 3253 than the honourable member; I have to be careful about that. I think the generation that follows mine, that generation is becoming better placed than my generation was and better informed, and that is really a hopeful thing for the future of environmental stewardship on our planet.

There is lots to be done and the more we do, the more we accept that there is more that should be done, but when I mentioned the 39,000 youths, that is the cumulative number of youths over the seven years, but that is a very big number of young people involved in environmental projects. Just think what they are going to teach their kids when they have families of their own. I think it is a very positive thing. The EYC, Environmental Youth Corps, provide Manitoba's young people with an opportunity to prepare for environmental challenges of tomorrow by helping them gain valuable education and experience today.

Just last week, I visited Neelin High School in Br andon and spoke to a class there. The teacher is David Barnes, and they are into various environmental programs. It is a whole semester where they have in high school one teacher who takes them through all of their classes, and they deal with environmental issues on their minds in all of those classes.

I had the privilege of addressing them and actually have them address me, because through the question and-answer time that we had, we all learned something-probably I learned more than they did, but that is not a bad thing either-and then at the end of the day they presented me with some paper and envelopes that they had produced right there at Neelin High School. So now if I write the honourable member a note in handwriting, I will put it on that paper, so that he will be reminded of what I said about Neelin High School.

A lot of the good things that happen tend to happen in the Westman area, and I think the member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) would probably agree with that, and some good things happen in other areas, of course, too. EYC encou rages youths to volunteer throughout the province for projects to improve and protect Manitoba's environment.

Obviously, at the amounts of these grants, nobody is going to make a great living on it or anything like that, so a big component of this program is a volunteer component which, when that is happening, you know you are really getting something done. * (1 030) The program stresses the importance of local action for sustaining the environment. Manitoba youths have increased their appreciation and responsibility towards their environmental surroundings, as well as learned the importance of voluntary community involvement.

I do not know how much more the honourable member wants me to tell him, but the types of projects include community enhancement, riverbank cleanup, water quality-you cannot just clean up the riverbank this year and then it is cleaned up forever because it gets to a point it needs more cleaning up-the projects around composting and recycling, protection of flora and fauna, restoring wildlife habitat, rehabilitation of the natural environment in local parks, wildlife conservation, tree planting.

The objectives of the program are to stimulate the implementation of local volunteer-based, action oriented projects that provide opportun ities for Manitoba youth to be involved in environment-related areas, to increase the level of awareness of and the need for protec ting and enhancing the environment and effectively managing resources, to increase the level of awareness of Manitoba youth of the importance of group- and volunteer-based efforts in the solutions to environmental problems and challenges. The application for this program is by way of an application form.

The form is to be sent to the nearest Manitoba Environment office. There are five of them throughout the province. The selection process for applicants is a two-tier process, where applications are first reviewed and assessed by regional scree ning committees. The final selection is made by a selection comm ittee comprised of representatives of Manitoba Environment, Manitoba Education and Training, and the Sustainable Development Co-ordination Unit. Eligible projects must address environmental quality concerns, including environmental protection, enhancement, rehabilitation, conservation, and resource management.

You have to be between six and 24. I do

3254 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 21, 19 98 not think the honourable member qualifies anymore, probably quit qualifying about a year ago. Each project has to have a clearly identifiable beginning and ending, and they provide hands-on experience for volunteering youths. Eligible applicants are charitable and voluntary organizations, environ mental organizations, service clubs and schools, local governments including municipalities, band councils and aboriginal organizations, and educational institutions and student groups.

So while there is an employment sort of feature to this, I do not think it is the main feature. I think that things I said about volunteering and so on are really a big part of this, and it has-while it is true that riverbanks get cleaned up and neighbourhoods get cleaned up and so on, there is a real education component here that is very, very important. Mr. Dewar: Now, in the minister's answer, I believe he said the budget is $114,000 for the program. Mr. McCrae: It is $200,000; $200,000 is allocated. Last year $114,000 was expended. Mr. Dewar: So how is this program funded?

Is it through general revenues or is it like the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund, which is money that originated from a levy placed on a consumer product? How is the program funded? Mr. McCrae: The disposable diaper and liquor bottle levies find their way to the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund and a certain amount is set aside for this program. Mr. Dewar: I would like to ask the minister to provide me with a list of projects and the areas that receive these projects, in which areas of the province, and the budget for each of the projects.

As well, who has the final approval when it comes to the granting of the youth corps? Who makes the final approval as to who receives funding or not? Mr. McCrae: Well, as I pointed out to the honourable member, in the regions of Manitoba there are these committees from Environment, Education and Training, and I forget the other one, but those committees make recommendations to the minister, me, and the minister then distributes the funds. So that is the process that is followed and, yes, the honourable member wants to know which projects and where they were, and we will get all that for him.

He asked me last day about the Grou ndwater Rehabilitation Program for the flood of 19 97. Do you want me to give you that information now? Mr. Dewar: Sure. Mr. McCrae: The honourable member says yes. So the number of wells-maybe I will just table the information and then the honourable member, if he wants, can ask further questions. The honourable member also asked about the Freedom of Information requests, and here they are. For the most part, they have all been granted and information provided. You can see on the document I am tabling the status of each of them. Mr.

Dewar: So the minister will provide me with a list of the projects and a budget for each one. How is the Youth Corps and the concept promoted throughout Man itoba? Again, I cannot recall seeing any type of promotional information. Maybe he can enlighten us as to how this program is promoted. Mr. McCrae: Just to clarify, the honourable member asked for a list of the projects and the budgets. What I am saying is I will give him a list of the projects and the amounts for each one. If he wants to break it down further with a particular one, then we could deal with that.

In terms of the people's awareness of the Environ mental Youth Corps program, our regional offices play their role, but not everybody in Manitoba finds their way into the regional Environment office, and we know that. Education and Training plays quite a role in making people aware of this program through the schools themselves, and I understand that is where the bulk of the promotion of this program takes place. • (I 040) Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Chairman, I would like to take a bit of time and ask the minister a

May 2I, I998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANIT OBA 3255 few questions about the department's role as far as the expansion of the hog industry in this province. The minister is well aware that the industry is going to grow, but it is not going to grow without controversy. There has been a fair amount of it throughout the province, and it does not seem to be coming to an end. We had the issues in the Interlake.

We now have with the plant being built in Brandon and some people wanting to expand into hog production in that area, not necessarily in the minister's constituency but the areas around it, there has been controversy there, people opposing the expansions-Netley Creek. Now we have the ones around Portage. There are many areas where there is controversy. When people come to us they are very concerned about expansion, and in most cases people say they are not opposed to the hog industry growing. They state quite clearly that they know the industry is going to grow, but they want it to grow in a sustainable way.

They are not even saying: not in my backyard. Bu t they want assurances that when a proposal is being made that they have the opportunity to have input and their input is also being taken seriously. I will refer particularly to the Netley Creek project where people said to us that-and they are concerned about the location of the proposed operation in that area. They have told us that they have come to the Department of Environment and raised their concerns, but those concerns did not appear to be taken seriously.

In fact, they were told that the project will probably go ahead, even though there is concern with the location of the site. The people in the commun ity have drawn up a map showing where the water table is and outlining what their concerns are.

So I would ask the minister how he sees addressing this to ensure that when local people have a concern with an operation coming to their area that they in fact are taken seriously and that the local input has an impact on whether or not an operation can establish in a particular area, and that the concerns of local people are taken seriously, particularly when they are concerned with the possibility of an impact on water supply. Mr. McCrae: The honourable member has focused on potential harm to water supply, which is what I believe is really probably the most important consideration.

I mean there are lots of considerations in an expansion of the kind we are going to see in Manitoba and have already seen. Of course, she is right that, coming from Brandon, I am very aware of the issues that arise when you have an operation of the magnitude of the Maple Leaf one coming to Brandon. I mean, I have heard estimates that hundreds and hundreds and hundr eds of new hog barns and expanded operations are going to be required to keep the Maple Leaf operation working at capacity or at reasonable levels in the city of Brandon to provide all that employment and all that economic activity.

There is more to it than simply the issue of the water, as the honourable member would know, in neighbour hoods and in communities, but dealing with the water part, we share that concern that people have. I mean, as a government, we need to do that. We want to see development in our province, but we also want it to be sustainable. That is why the previous so-called regulation we had for livestock manure and mortalities was seen to be, and indeed was, insufficient for the kind of growth we are going to see in livestock.

That is not only hogs but it is other forms of livestock as well, including the exotic ones that we have never really seen being raised in Manitoba bef ore. I know hogs are getting all the attention these days, but that is not the only area of concern. So what we came forward with was a new regulation which, in anticipation of the growth that was going to happen and because of the growth in the industry that was already happening, it was the right thing to do, given the concerns that the honourable member was talking about.

So the consultation process began something like 20 months ago and it was pretty widespread. Consultations included, near the end of it all, open houses in seven or eight Manitoba communities. Even at that late stage there were issues being raised that were addressed in the final touches to the regulation. So we are requiring, as the honourable member knows, the filing of annual reports, the requirement for the reporting of spills, set out in the legislation how much manure of different kinds is appropriate for different amounts of land to be spread on if it is going to be spread.

It does not allow spreading during winter months for the larger operations. From a scientific standpoint, I think there is comfort around the fact that

3256 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 21, 19 98 if this regulation is followed and properly enforced, that should provide the protection we need. Nonetheless, I think there is fail safe in the regulation that allows environmental officials to take an active role. Even with the prescribed amounts that are allowed, there may be certain environmental circumstances which would require a different treatment in a particular situation, and that is allowed for. The regulation also calls for proper storage facilities, whether it be lagoon-type facilities or the newer concrete storage facilities for manure.

So it deals with all of those items and ultimately we were able to achieve support for a regulated livestock environment, if you like, which other provinces that are seeing growth are looking pretty closely at what is going on here. It is interesting to note that in Saskatchewan and in Alberta, environment ministers there and agriculture ministers there are openly talking about how they do not regulate in these areas. In Manitoba we do. And where is all the growth happening?

Right here in Manitoba, and the reason, I suggest, is that our regulation makes good sense, not only to producers but also to ordinary citizens of our province. In order to be sustainable, you need to raise livestock in an environmentally appropriate way and in a way which is appropriate for the welfare of the animals. The major markets that Maple Leaf and others are working for, Asia, for example, those people are watching very closely at the conditions under which we produce product in our province, and when we are sort of state of the art, they know that this is a good place to buy their product from.

The extent to which you do it properly is noticed by those people who do business with us, so it is good business as well to do it right. I think I have covered most of that but the regulation. The honourable member is talking about larger issues too, and that is how some communities are still concerned. That does not surprise me because what was not stated in the honourable member's question is that there is an odour with the production of certain livestock species. * (10 50) The honourable member named a number of communities, but I know that Deloraine has had a look at this issue, Hartney.

Melita, the R.M. of Elton, right at the outskirts of Brandon and others in the process where communities are having a look at this and having debates. That is not a bad thing that these debates happen, but from an environmental standpoint our regulation makes sense. Now, from the other standpoint, land use, that is still something that municip alities are grappling with, but I think they are going to be able to deal with the issue a little better with a regulatory environment that makes some sense. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Chairman, the minister covered a broad range of things, and I want to say that there are other communities as well. I want to say that in my own constituency there is a hog production, one bam that is going up, and there are other areas as well. The minister says that it is because our regulations are so good, that that is why people are coming here. I think he has to recognize, too, that it might be just the opposite. I understand that in Saskatchewan-Saskatchewan tells me that their regulations are more stringent than ours.

Although they do want the industry to grow in Saskatchewan and they do want it to grow in Alberta, it is not as if they do not have regulations as well. So, Mr. Chairman, I think one of the reasons that we are having growth in the hog industry in Manitoba is that we have some of the cheapest grain in the country as a result of the change to the Crow and the transportation system, and people are looking for alternatives. The minister also mentioned that I did not talk about odour.

It is true, many people, one of the first reasons people think about when a hog bam is coming in is the fact that there might be odour, and it might have an impact on their quality oflife. A tremendous amount of work is going into controlling odour, but I worry about-when we control odour, if we can control odour, then people miss the other issue. For me, the main issue is the quality of water and the impacts on our water when we start to spread a large amount of manure. We have to ensure that, when operations are being established, there is adequate land base for the wastes to be spread.

But more than adequate land base, we have to ensure that the land base is of a quality that can absorb the wastes, and it is not going to end up running off and into ditches or going into the water table.

May 21, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MB LY OF MAN ITOBA 3257 A good example of that is what has happened in the Interlake. There have been some real disasters in the Interlake as far as where hog barns have been allowed to be built and have caused some real problems for the people. Of course, that has resulted in other people being concerned with hog hams coming into their areas. I do not think that you can ever be too careful in ensuring that things are being done properly to ensure that water does not become contaminated.

We certainly do not want to face, say, 20 years down the road, some of the problems that we have seen in the United States in areas where hog production has become so concentrated that it has had an impact on the quality of water. What I think we have to be doing is various depart ments have to work together, between Agriculture and Rural Development and Environment. I would want the departments to consider whether or not we could be doing a master plan of this province. We have all the technology available. We have soil types; we know where the water tables are across the province.

Why can the government not take the initiative to do such a thing and put out a map of the province? When somebody is proposing to build a hog operation of a larger size-and certainly we do not have to go to this extent when we have family-sized operations-but when we have a larger operation, we should be able to, as a province, say, okay, you are proposing a bam, we have the studies of this area. The studies show us that in this particular area it will just not be feasible for you to build a bam here because of certain conditions, but we can show you places on a map that are feasible.

By doing this, by working together with various departments, by working together with municipalities, I think that you could alleviate some of the problems that municipalities face right now because there are real challenges for municipalities, some that have zoning by-laws and some that do not. You have proponents of operations going from one muni cipality to the other and just moving over the border and causing some problems.

It is a major issue that has to be addressed, and I think that we have to look at ways by working together to ensure that when proponents of operations come to our prov ince that it can be developed in a sustainable way, that we can ensure that it will be economical for the people that want to build the operations, but it will be also sustainable for our communities, for the people who choose to live in a rural area that we are not going to be sacrificing the quality of life.

Now, we know that in other industries when there is not proper environmental regulations that there have been, if you look at the mining industry, for example, when things were not managed properly, problems have been created. So what we have to ensure is that we do not allow the same thing to happen in this industry. I know that quite often the government likes to say when we ask these kinds of questions, oh, wel l, you are asking the questions, you are raising them because you are against the hog industry expanding.

Well, I think that is very, very foolish to be saying those kinds of things because all of us know that the industry is going to grow, and farmers really have not got much choice. With the changes that were made to the transportation system, it really is not viable to grow grain just for export anymore, but farmers cannot change over completely to other cereal crops because they are an important part of the crop rotation. You have to be able to grow those crops.

So you have to look for another way to use the crops, and certainly there is a growing market for red meat in Asia, although I am not sure with things the way they are going in some of those countries right now, I am sure that people who are making investments in the hog industry are a little bit nervous right now with some of the things that we see happening in some of those countries right now as to whether or not there is going to be a market for the product or whether or not those people who are spending their money on red meat right now are going to be spending their money on other things.

The economy is just very, very unstable in those parts of the country, so I am not sure, I think we might see a decline in the revenues that people who are involved in hog production right now, and of course they are working on a very, very narrow margin. So those are the kinds of things we have to be really concerned about is looking at how we can do a plan for this province.

I would ask the minister whether he would consider taking on such a proposal whereby we would put in place a plan where we would look at soil types, water quality, water levels across the province and ensure that there is planning done, and there would

3258 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 21, 19 98 be more guidance for those people who are proposing operations and perhaps give some support to municipalities and alleviate some of the problems that we have as far as commun ity concern. *( 1 100) Mr. McCrae: I thank the honourable members of this committee for their forbearance as I double with their colleague the honourable member for Bur rows (Mr. Martindale). My problems are not over yet, but I do appreciate the honourable members' forbearance.

She is right that, while order is indeed an issue for communities and is basically something that comes under the farm practices legislation in our province, water is, I believe, the primary concern. Additionally, we do not want to ruin the land from which we are able to grow fine, fine crops in Manitoba. That is why agronomic principles are taken into account in the drafting of the regulation we have.

I have appreciated the approach taken by the New Democratic Party on this whole issue because I think it is important to their communities, just like ours in Progressive Conservative ridings, where there is so much agricultural activity going on these days. This is a good thing, and we just want to make sure that we do not burst this balloon that we have going. I have been approached specifically by one of the ministers in western Canada to find out what it is that we are doing so well here in Manitoba with our environmental regulation because they are starting to hear some things about it.

We have, I do not think there is any doubt, the most effective environmental regulation oflivestock manure anywhere in the country. They are coming to us, and they are asking us what it is that we are doing. There is a good chance that they may want to emulate some of the things we are doing here, so I appreciate the things the honourable member has said. I believe that the department and the government are very well aware of the concerns that are there, but I believe also the regulation that we now have in place will have the effect of protecting the water resource that is so precious to life on this planet. Ms.

Wowchuk: The minister talks about reaching out and talking to people, and we have done a fair amount of that. One of the issues that was raised with us-and, Mr. Chairperson, you will be aware of this because it is an issue that was raised in your constituency, and that is that there are many, many lagoons that are not listed and are not being monitored. So I would ask the minister whether it falls under his department to ensure that all waste lagoons that are built are registered, what steps his department is taking to catalogue, to make a list of lagoons, and whether or not they are being inspected.

We are told that they are not. I would ask the minister whether or not he has adequate staff to ensure that this is happening, and what steps he is going to take to resolve it. Mr. McCrae: Mr.

Chairman, I think the honourable member did in her initial remarks make some specific references, and if she might repeat them we could deal with them, but we do need spec ific ref erences here because we are just as concerned as she is if there are any breaches going on or any flouting of the law or anything like that because, frankly, from an industry standpoint it is important and, obviously, from an environmental standpoint it is important.

If there are specific examples of issues that are arising in certain areas where there are not inspections and there are supposed to be or someone from the department is just simply allowing things to go on that are not supposed to be going on, I would like to know about that specifically, because we will track them down and deal with those issues. Ms. Wowchuk: I have not seen the specific sites, but what has been brought to our attention is not new sites that are being built but sites that have been there for some time and sites that are not being monitored.

The people of the area are worried about increased production, so then that means increased pressure on existing lagoons, and they want to see it addressed. So I will get for the minister maybe a little bit more detail and have a discussion perhaps with the member for the area, and we can see that the issue is corrected. This is not an attempt in any way to try to control somebody's production, but it is an attempt to ensure that where there is production that it is not going to increase in a way that is going to again have a negative impact on the area but also on the water supply.

I think that we have to get these kinds of things under control

May 21, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3259 and, if people are aware of them, that the department should follow up on them. I guess the other question to the minister was: does the minister have adequate staff? I know there has been a cut in envi ronmental staff. Is the minister comfortable that his staff level is adequate to monitor and keep on top of all the increases in lagoons and increased hog production that we are going to be seeing over the next little while? Mr. McCrae: I am in complete agreement with the comments of the honourable member.

There are existing operations that may grow to the point where they will come within the bounds of the regulation. Even smaller ones, if there are conditions that exist that even a smaller operation can create an environmental hazard, we are entitled under the regulation to do something about it. It is those areas I think, those specific cases that may indeed become issues. The larger, brand-new operations, the new operators are not uncomfortable with the regulatory requirements.

They are prepared to make the investment, to put in place the appropriate mitigation facilities, appropriate lagoons or storage facilities. They are prepared to do it because obviously there is expected to be return on their investment and they can look after that. But, yes, no one regulation takes care of every single thing. I am not foolish enough to think that everything is looked after. I believe the challenge is indeed going to be to ensure the department gets the appropriate resources. I think we are appropriately resourced right now, but we will not be if the growth continues.

We do have plans to add six additional people to the task, as we were discussing with the honourable member for Selkir k (Mr. Dewar) last day and, if the growth gets beyond even those expectations that there are right now and we need more enforcement capacity, more inspection capacity, that is something we are committed to addressing. Mr. Chairperson: Before I recognize the honourable member for Swan River, I was wondering if, with leave of the committee, I could say just a very few words about it seeing that my constituency is involved somehow. Would there be leave? Agreed? Some Honourable Members: Agreed.

An Honourable Member: I agree as long as you do not abuse the privilege, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairperson: I will not. I just wanted to comment very briefly on the possibility of a couple of places or a few places that were in some way abusing slightly or otherwise the environment. I had those put forward to me at the time in my constituency, and I did have those places checked out. I was given two names by the same people that she was. I checked out those two. One was a newer place that did have a problem, but the people from Environment were already working on it right from the beginning.

The second one, indeed, did not have a problem. I have not had anything else besides that brought to my attention. * (1 1 10) Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, I want to move on to another topic briefly. Although I know that this is a very important topic, the expansion of the hog industry and the way we are going to manage the environment as the industry grows, but the minister is aware of time. We all have time restraints on the amount of time we can spend on Estimates, and I want to take a short time to discuss another issue. It is an issue that I raised last- Mr. Chairperson: Order, please.

A vote has been requested in the other committee room. We will recess and proceed to the Chamber for the vote. The committee recessed at 11:11 a.m. After Recess The committee resumed at 11.49 a.m. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. This comm ittee of Environment will resume consideration of the Environment Estimates, and I believe the honourable minister was speaking at the time. Mr. McCrae: I believe I was just wrapping up. The members from the New Democratic Party were raising very important issues related to the expansion of the

3260 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 21, 19 98 livestock industry in Manitoba and the accompanying environmental concerns. We have talked about those, and I think we are basically on the same track in this regard. The caution I am taking from the comments is to ensure that we are properly resourced as a depart ment to enforce this regulation, and we fully intend to do just that. Mr. Dewar: I would like to, as well, ask a few questions regarding the new regulations.

Perhaps the minister can just highlight some of the changes in terms ofthe regulations, the new amendments and so on, if he could do that for us now. * (1 15 0) Mr. McCrae: Yes, Mr. Chairman, if I can get hold of this allergy of mine that is making me sneeze all the time the last week or so. [interjection] Well, I am going to do that, too. The new regulation, which came into effect April 1, deals with all the major aspects of the livestock industry as it relates to environmental protection. It deals with storage of manure. It deals with animal units.

It identifies how many animal units are the sub ject of this regulation, so that if you are producing something below a certain level of animal units, then you are not deemed automatically to be an environmental hazard. You still cannot escape environmental protection measures even if you are below the 400 animal unit threshold. It deals with the reporting of spills. It deals with the filing of annual reports respecting your manure management plan. It deals with winter-spreading. So those are the areas of concern for people concerned about the environment. Indeed, scientific concerns are addressed.

Once you take all the politics and rhetoric away, you are still left with some scientific environmental issues, and I think that we have dealt with them in a responsible way in this regulation. Mr. Dewar: The 400 animal units, I understand that this is different for different animals. As it relates to hogs, what size of an operation would fit into the 400 animal unit requirement under the new regulation in terms of winter-spreading? Mr.

McCrae: I can make available this afternoon for the honourable member a table of all the different kinds of animals and how many animals would be caught, as it were, by this regulation. Mr. Dewar: I know there was a public review of the new regulations, and I attended a meeting in Portage. There were a number of producers there. The format of the meeting I think made it difficult for a lot of the producer s to put forward their concerns, but what are some of the things that the department has heard from producers in terms of these regulations?

There was a presentation made and there was a table set up with the regulations, and then there was the opportunity for producers to talk to some of the environmental officers there. I listened into different discussions, and there were some individuals there who were saying, you know, these regulations are going to mean the end of the industry. There was some of that mentioned in terms of the winter-spreading and so on. What is some of the feedback that the department did get from their public review of the regulations? Mr.

McCrae: Some typical-type feedback, and you get the other side too, some typical comments were: well, the winter that you are prescribing in the regulation is too long; you are not being realistic on that. What is a spill? How much do you have to spill before it is a spill? If you spill a cupful, is that something you have to report? We had those kinds of commen ts, and, yes, this is going to ruin the industry and that sort of thing. At the end of the day though, the consensus, I believe, is reflected in the regulation. I do not think the heavy hand of government is evident anywhere in that regulation.

We had farm people coming forward and saying, well, this is going to be too tough; you are not giving us enough time to adjust our practices, so we looked at those areas as well. Some people more on the environmental side of the argument would say, well, you know, your winter is way too long or you are way too short-way too long, I think. Anyway, you are allowing too much spreading in the winter, so you would get both sides of it.

May 21, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 3261 I think there was a genuine effort on the part of the people working in the department and the members of my caucus, my colleagues, who ultimately had some input as well, the genuine effort to get the right balance there. At the end of the day, I think when you hear from outsiders that we have got the toughest scenario going, it is encouraging on the one hand, but I think that some of the concerns were evident simply because in the draft stages of this, it was not clear what was going to be the end result, so people certainly wanted to get their concerns in.

The small operators, for example, are you going to do away with the family farm with this kind of regulation? Obviously, that was not what our intention was, and our firm belief is that is not what is happening here. I have met personally with individual farmers. I met with commun ity representatives who had concerns. This was as we were leading up to the end of it, but at the end of it all, the announcement was almost anticlimactic. It was done at the Winter Fair in Brandon.

Yes, we were noticed with the announce ment, but in a positive way overall, and I have had very little correspondence since this regulation was proclaimed, pro or con. Mr. Dewar: I recall one of the concerns raised by a producer. Again, I was just sort of listening in on some of the conversation, and he said, well, you know, it is fine to ban winter-spreading, and I think it is a good idea, but it does not lessen the quantity of manure that is produced by the industry. If you do not spread it in the winter, you know, they have to store it, then it has to be spread at another time, I guess.

What actions are you, maybe yourself, and the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), taking in terms of research? We have heard this when we are out there meeting with people that there could be more research done on this to try to recycle some of this waste that literally is going to be billions of litres. I would suggest that it is produced every year by the livestock industry. Well, pigs, in particular, but it does not only include hogs, of course, it is all types of livestock. Has the minister looked at the capacity of the province to absorb this quantity of waste? Mr. McCrae: I think it is fair to say yes.

Agricu lture, Environment, everybody involved from the government side of it is looking at a virtual redoubling of production in our province. That means there is going to be a redoubling of animal manure in the next very few years. Now, I understand we will be able to pick up on this a little later as we proceed. I will maybe hold that thought and we will talk a little bit more about it. The member did ask for information about the Environmental Youth Corps. I have a document here which I will table so that the honourable member can get it. It sets out all the different projects. Mr.

Chairperson: The time being 12 noon, I am interrupting proceedings. The Committee of Supply will resume sitting this afternoon following conclusion of Routine Proceedings. EDUCATION AND TRAINING The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Edward Helwer): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply has been dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training. Would the minister's staff please enter the Chamber. We are on Resolution 16 .4. Suppor t to Schools (

a) Schools Finance (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): The staff who are here today have all been here before. Do they need introduction again or are they-okay. I have, for tabling, copies of some documents that were requested earlier. One is to all superintendents, all school divisions, districts, chairs and boards of trustees. It is about the Criminal Code offences and teachers who have been charged. The other is chairs, boards of trustees, superintendents, all school divisions, et cetera.

Again, on the similar topic regarding the reporting of people who have been charged or convicted. So I have three copies of each, and I leave them with the Clerk. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I had left a question with the minister's staff with respect to some financing questions, whether or not there had been any capital

3262 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 21, 19 98 requests come to the minister's department from the Transcona-Springfield School Division with respect to the vocational program at Murdoch MacKay Collegiate. I am not sure whether the minister has that information here with her today, but perhaps she can bring us up to date on that issue. Mrs. Mcintosh: Indeed, the member had asked that just prior to conclusion yesterday. The PSF people are not here with us today, but they did provide this information for the member.

Five-year capital plans submitted to the Public Schools Finance Board by the Transcona-Springfield School Division for the past two years have not identified nor have they requested any facility requirements for vocational programming at Mu rdoch MacKay. In the 19 99 to year 2000 five-year capital plan which was recently subm itted by that school division, they identified and prioritized the requirement of a classroom in the metal labs program for the year 2000.

This request along with all the other requests from school divisions around Manitoba wiii be subject to the PSFB's normal assessment and its normal prioritization processes. * (1010 ) The Public Schools Finance Board staff, Mr. Chairman-! have just been informed that staff is available from the PSFB. If we do require them, they can be brought in, but in the meantime I indicate that that staff will be meeting with school division officials in the next several months to discuss not ju st this topic but the other capital requests from Transcona.

So, in short, this is the first year there has been a request, and the request is for the 19 99-2000 year and is in the process of being examined, assessed. There is no answer at this point that can be provided. Mr. Reid: I thank the minister for that answer. It is my understanding that the Public Schools Finance Board people will likely be meeting with the Transcona-Springfield School Division representatives at the end of this week or perhaps early next week to deal with the issues that I have been raising here with the minister.

I know the minister says that she has her staff available, but I do not have any other questions in that area, and I hope that the meetings that the two parties are having very shortly will be fruitful and that we can move forward with the resolution of the problems that I have identified here with the minister over the course of the last week and a half with respect to the Springfield school problem, an overcrowding situation, and also with respect to the upgrading of the Transcona Collegiate institute, because I know it is important to both communities that those programs take place, not only for the safety of the students, but also to make sure that their learning is done in the best possible environment for them and to allow them to be creative in their own ways as young people in our communities.

So I thank the minister for the answers that she has provided. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): Item 16 .5. Training and Continuing Education (

a) Management Services (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $485 ,900- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $222,50 0-pass;

(3) Adva nced Education and Training Assis tance $1, 1 82, I 00-pass. Item 16 .5 .(

b) Labour Market Support Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $447,800-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $14 8, 700-pass. Item 16 .5 .(

c) Adult Literacy and Continuing Education (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $328,4 00-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $10 I ,300-pass;

(3) Grants $1 ,074,500-pass. Item 16 .5 .(

d) Youth Programs

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,252 ,200-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $391 ,200-pass;

(3) CareerS tart $2,480 ,800-pass;

(4) Youth Commun ity Partnerships $4,325 ,000-pass;

(5) Partners for Careers $300,000- pass;

(6) Less: Recoverable from Rural and Urban Economic Development Initiatives ($3,900,000)-pass;

(7) Less: Recoverable from Northern Affairs ($200,000)-pass. Item 16 .5 .(

e) Workforce 2000 (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $377,20 0-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $95, 700,000-pass;

(3) Training Supp ort $1 ,400,000-pass.

May 21, 19 98 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA 3263 Item 16 .5.(

f) Stevenson Aviation Centre

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $337,5 00-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $869,80 0-pass. Item 16 .5 .(

g) Apprenticeship ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,464, 1 00-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $486, 1 00-pass;

(3) Training Supp ort $1 ,000,000-pass. Item 16 .5.(

h) Employment and Training Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $3 ,13 7,800-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1, 200,900-pass;

(3) Training Sup port $4,300,600-pass;

(4) Making Welf are Work $4,850, 300-pass;

(5) Less: Recoverable from Family Services ($600,000}-pass. Item 16 .5. 0) Canada-Manitoba Labour Market Development Agreement

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $5, 226 ,000-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $433,0 00-pass;

(3) Training Suppo rt $48,662,000- pass. This is under 16 .4.{

a) Schools Finance

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $789, 800-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1 52, 700-pass;

(3) Property Assessment $2,090,400-pass. Item 16 .4.(

b) Education Adminis tration Services {1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1, 19 9,600-pass; {2) Other Expenditures $435, 1 00-pass. Item 16 .4.(

c) Schools Infonnation System (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $300,400-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $506,50 0-pass. Item 16 .4.(

d) Schools Grants ( 1) Operating Grants $56 9,9 14 ,800-pass; {2) General Suppo rt Grants $19 , 19 8,600-pass. Item 16 .4.(

e) Other Grants $2,05 1, 000-pass. Item 16 .4.(

f) Teachers' Retirement Allowances Fund $67,272 ,900-pass. Item 16 .4.(

g) Manitoba Education, Research and Learning lnfonnation Networks $5 13 ,300-pass. Resolution 16 .4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $664,4 25, 100 for Education and Training, Supp ort to Schools, for the fiscal year ending 31s t of March, 19 99. Resolution 16 .5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $8 1 ,88 1 ,400 for Education and Training, Training and Continuing Education, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 99. Item 16 .6. Support for Post-Secondary Education (

a) Council on Post-Secondary Education

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $6 14,300-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $248,5 00-pass. Item 16 .6.(

b) Universities Grants ( 1) Operating Grants $2 14,365 ,600-pass;

(2) Faculty of Management $889 ,000-pass. Item 16 .6.(

c) Commun ity Colleges Grant ( 1) Operating Grants $55, 65 1 ,300-pass;

(2) Inter Universities North $822, 1 00-pass. Item 16 .6.(

d) Post-Secondary Strategic Initiatives Fund $1 ,000,000-pass. Item 16 .6.(

e) Access Programs $6,484, 700-pass. Item 16 .6.(

f) Stude nt Financial Assi stance

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1, 43 1 ,500-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $629,900-pass;

(3) Loans and Bu rsaries $6, 19 1, 600-pass;

(4) Interest Relief $1,1 00,000-pass;

(5) Debt Reduction $480,000-pass;

(6) Scholarship and Bur saries Initiative $5,000,000-pass;

(7) Manit oba Learning Tax Credit $1 5,000,000-pass. * (1 020) Resolution 16 .6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $309,908,500 for Education and Training, Suppor t for Post-Secondary Education, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March 31, 19 99-pass. Item 16 .7. Expenditures Related to Capital (

a) School Divisions $23,687 ,600-pass. Item 16 .7.(

b) Universities $1 1, 340,000-pass.

3264 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 21, 19 98 Item 16 .7.(

c) Community Colleges $2,245 ,600-pass. Item 16 .7 .(

d) Less: Recoverable from Capital Initiatives ($2,400,000)-pass. Resolution 16 .7: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $34,873,200 for Education and Training, Expenditures Related to Capital, for the fiscal year ending 3 I st day of March, 19 99-pass. The last item to be considered for the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training is Minister's Salary. At this point, we request that the minister's staff leave the table for the consideration of this item. Item 16 .1. Administration and Finance (

a) Minister's Salary $26,300. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Chairman, we have been here many hours in Estimates. There are never enough hours in Estimates. I would not like to leave on the record the indication that we had not wanted to look at the many areas that had to be passed over very quickly in Estimates this time. Hope springs eternal that we will at some point have the time to look at all sections of the department in equal amount. I want to thank the minister's staff for the many hours that they have put in, not only in the Chamber, but in waiting for attendance at the Chamber.

I would like to thank the minister for the many materials that she has tabled, often with great, timely ability to table them, but I also want to remind her that there are several documents that remain untabled that were promised. So we look forward to receiving those at a later date. I think, to conclude, my colleague from Transcona has a final question. Mr. Reid: I have a question for the minister.

It is a letter that I received from a young lady in my constituency, Patricia Sawicki, with respect to the Bachelor of Education program and Educational Assis tant Diploma program at the University of Winnipeg, where she graduated. It is my understanding that that program has been expanded. This young lady had registered for the four-year program, and that program has now been expanded to a five-year program. She is presently working full time and going to school part time as a mature student. She was only allowed to take 24 credit hours a year.

Now this program has been expanded to the five-year program, which puts her at great disadvantage. It is my plan to send a letter over to the minister today with respect to this issue, so the minister can see the detail that Ms. Sawicki has written to me on.

I am not sure if the minister has the inf ormation available with respect to the program expansion, but I am just wondering: was there any consideration given to those students that were currently enrolled in the program that perhaps they could have been grandparented in the sense that they had already had enrollment in the program before it was expanded to the five-year program so that they would not have been put at a disadvantage with respect to their education?

I do not know whether the minister is able to answer that question here today, but I will give her the opportunity to comment on it and perhaps come back with some further research when I do write to her later today. Mrs. Mcintosh: Ju st for clarification, you are talking about the Bachelor of Education program at the University of Winnipeg. No? Mr. Reid: Ms. Sawicki was writing to me in regard to changes to the Bachelor of Education program, and she had worked as an educational assistant for six years. In June '95 she graduated with an Educational Ass istant Diploma program at the University of Winnipeg.

Now she has been involved in the program for some time obviously as a mature student, but while she was in the middle of her training, the program was expanded from four years to five years. Mrs. Mcintosh: I will follow up on what the member said, just a short comment. The faculties of Education for the degree program in education are moving to 15 0 credit hours as opposed to the 12 0 they were, and that was at the request of the Board of Teacher Education and Certification.

That request was put to the ministry some years ago by BOTEC, and subsequently the University of Manitoba moved arbitrarily to the 15 0 credit hours. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Chairperson, in the Chair

May 21, 19 98 LEGISLATI VE ASSE MBLY OF M

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-4-51a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 4th hansardpdf 51a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	c5e6fa9c74f1b74d5fff2ca1b0cd6b798bc18972

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