ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXII No. 21A- 2:00p.m., MONDAY, 14 MAY, 1984. Printed by the Offtce of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Sieve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. iDave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EV ANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOV NATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOW SKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, O.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vie SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Spring field Th ompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Chu rchill St. Boniface Aiel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emer son Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virde n Kirkfield Park Th e Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Os borne River Height s Flin Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP INO NDP NDP NDP NDP INO NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MA NITOB A Monday, 14 May, 1984. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Read ing and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Comm ittees . NON-POLI TI CA L STATEMENT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker. as Deputy Premier, I'd like to make a non-political statement. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Min ister. HON. M. SMITH: Today marks the swearing in of our new Governor -General for Canada.

The first woman ever to hold this position, Madame Jeanne Sauve comes to the task with unique qualif ications. She has been a work ing jour nalist , a Mem ber of Parliament, and Speaker of the House of Commons. In addition, as wil e, mother and esteemed frie nd, she has had experiences that bring her close to ordinary Canadians. We assure her of our loyalty and wish her well in her new role as Governor-General of Canada. As she enters her new post, we in Manitoba also take special pleasure in expressing our gratitude to the outgoing Governor-General, the Honour able Edward Schreyer, and to his family.

Their term at Rideau Hall brought a freshness and a new accessibility to their home for Canadians. All the family have served with distinction. We welcome them home to Manitoba for a few weeks well-earned vacation, and want them to know that the warm wishes of all Manitobans will accompany them in their new venture as the Honourable Edward Schr eyer becomes the Canadian Hi gh Commissioner to Australia. May you never forget us, and may your years of service in Australia be happy and fulfilling. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

On behalf of Members of the Opposition, I would like to join with the Acting Premier in wishing well Madame Sauve in her new role as Canada's Governor-General. We, too, share in the congratulations and good wishes that are being extended today to her as she embarks upon her new role. We would like to assure all members of the House and, indeed, the people of Manitoba, that we share in the loyalty that was expressed to her in her role as representative of the Queen in Canada.

As well, we would like to join with the Acting Premier in wishing well the Honourable Edward Schreyer as he embarks upon his new role as Canadian Hi gh Commissioner to Australia. Thank you very much. 722 MINI STERI AL STATEMENTS AND TABL ING OF REPOR TS MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nour able Mini ster of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. For the information of all members, I would like to present to them the Nineteenth Annual Report of the Manitoba Hog Producers' Marketing Board for the year ended December, 1983. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table Suppl ementary Information for the Estimates Review for the Department of Muni cipal Affairs. The Clerk has copies for all members. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before Oral Quest ions, may I direct the attention of members to the loge on my left. We have a former member and Speaker of this Chamber, Mr. Ben Hanuschak. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. In the gallery there are 21 students of Grade 11 standing from the Tuxedo-Shaltesbury High School.

They are under the direction of Mrs. Elliott. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Tuxedo. There are 24 students of Grade 9 standing from the Emerson School, under the direction of Mr. Hanuschak and Mrs. Norman. They are from the constituency of the Honourable Member for Emerson. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORA L QUESTIONS Premier's trip overseas - financing MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Acting Premier and it is with respect to a news release that was issued today by the government entitled, "Pawley in Europe on business trip. " 1t outlines a one-week series of meetings that the Premier has undertaken in Zurich and Dusseldorl. My question to the Acting Premier is, is the Premier visiting Switzerland and West Germany and other Eur opean countries to arrange for additional capital loans for our province or

Monday, 14 May, 1184 is it for the purpose of promoting bu siness developme nt? Which is the prime purpose of his visit? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Yes, Mr. Speak er, the purpose is twofold. They will be looking at investment potential from the Dusseldorf area and also dealing with a loan. MR. G. FILMON: The second question, who is accompanying the Premier on this particular visit? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speak er, I can take it as notice. The only person I know who is accompanying the Premier is the Minister of Finance. MR. G. FILMON: A further supplementary, Mr.

Speaker. What types of business development opportunities are being pursued in West Germany? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker. I cannot ident ify the specifics for the members opposite, but I can say that West Germany was identified as an area on a par with Hong Kong as a part of the world where there was potential, that is, people with money who were interested in investing in Canada and in some of the industries that are found here. I don't know of any specific projects. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that we have three Ministries in the government that have something to do with Bu siness Development or Economic Development, Industry, Trade and Technology, small business and Tourism - and I keep forgetting the Ministry of the Member for Lac du Bonnet - all three DG the m have some thing to do with bu siness de velopment and economic opportunities in this province. I am wondering, Mr. Speake r, why one of these Ministers or representatives of their department has not accompanied the Premier, if part of the rationale was business developme nt. HON. M. SMITH: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I'm very happy to notice that the member opposite has spotted the fact that we are giving very high priority to the economic thrusts in the government. But I would like to point out to him that in his listing of economic portfolios he has failed to mention the Ministry of Agriculture, Natural Resources, Co-op Development, Energy and Mines and Crown Investments; and just really want to indicate that we are giving very high priority to initiatives in all these areas.

In terms of who goes along on an international mission of this sort, it is our attempt to be very focused and frugal, in terms of who accompanies. I have undertaken to find out which individuals have accompanied the Premier, but you can be sur e that we will have appropriate representation, but to us in the middle of an important Session of the Legislature, it didn't seem wise to send every Economic Minister along with the Premier, but the expertise required is there and, as I say, I will undertake to get the names of the other people who are accompanying the Premier. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, I wasn't advocating that we send every Economic Development Minister and I certainly don't accept, that giving three people the job of one means giving greater emphasis to a particular area of the government's initiatives. But, Mr. Speak er, in view of the fact that the Premier is pursuing, presumably, economic development as part of the rationale for his trip overseas, what areas of economic development, what particular industry sectors or what particular types of opportunity are being pursued as he travels t.o these countries? HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, I've already answered the question in saying that I don't know the specific project, but it doesn't take too much imagination to think of the major industries that are in Manitoba that do lend themselves to outside investment. it's usually in the field of secondary processing of agricultural products or forestry products or minerals. However I will undertake to bring appropriate information to the House when it's the correct timing so to do. MR. G.

FILMON: If indeed this is such an important trip that the Premier has undertaken, why wouldn't other members of the Cabinet, particul arly the Deputy Premier, know the things that are being pursued, the types of industries that are being consulted and the types of opportunities that are be:ng presented to potential investors overseas? Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the Deputy Premier does not want to - or choose to - answer questions on the economic development side, perhaps I can pursue the other side of the rationale for the trip overseas.

In view of the fact that the current Budget projected a $488 million deficit this year, the third year in a row for this government that it is projecting an annual deficit in the range of a half billion dolla rs, are the North Amer ican capita l markets unable to satisfy our provincial needs for capital? Is that why they're going overseas to look at these foreign markets? 723 HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, the pattern for the past many years has been to develop a diversified portfolio of borrowings and to seek out the best possible deals in an international climate that is somewhat unstable and uncertain. lt seems only sensible that we should maintain this pattern of maintaining a diversified set of borrowings and to check out the best possible conditions in those different capital markets. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speak er, in view of the fact that the government is pursuing loans in foreign currencies, I presume, in foreign markets, and in view of the risks that are attendant with borrowing in foreign currencies, is the government as well pursuing the thought of hedging those foreign currency loans to eliminate some of tt.e risks? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, it has been the opinion on this side of the House that the best way to hedge in international markets is in fact to diversify, not put all one's loans into one area of the country, diversify them in terms of source, in terms of time and in terms of le ngth. MR. G.

FILMON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the various foreign currencies in which the government

MHday, 14 May, 1884 has pursued loans in the past have all been much stronger than the Canadian dollar, what safeguard is there to Canadians when all of these foreign currencies have been operating much more strongly than the Canadian dollar? In fact, we only stand to lose by diversifying since they're all currencies that are stronger than the Canadian dollar. HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, whether the member opposite likes to accept it or not, we do live in an international economic and trading system where there are ups and downs and relative differences that do occur from time to time, it's still our judgment on this side of the House that a diversified loan portfolio is the most secure way to protect the interests of the province. I guess from our point of view we see it as unwise to tie ourselves only to one capital market. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for - he disappeared - the Mini ster of Health. I'll wait until he returns, Mr. Speaker. Teachers - term contracts MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to address my question to the Minister of Education. Inasmuch as the government has popped through Bill 77 last Session, which has guaranteed a one-year tenure to teachers and also has guaranteed portability of senio rity, and I think the Minister refers to this as the portability of due process, I would ask what protection will be afforded to the two teachers that taught at the Peguis Indian Band now that they have been dismissed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, I'm not familiar with the issue that the Member for Morris raised. I'll take it as notice. Investigation re advertisement MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Community Services concerning what I think is a rather shocking advertisement in Saturday's Free Press about unwanted pregnancies and adoptions and abortions, etc. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to know if the Mini ster is concerned about advertising that is directed at young pregnant women, and I'd like to know whether she is concerned about the possibility of somebody trafficking and profiting on this type of activity. My question, to be precise about this advertisement is: Is she investigating the people and the process behind these advertisements? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the member would table that advertisement so I can see what it is he's referring to. 724 MR. R. DOERN: Yes, I will, Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to ask the Minister whether she or her department is familiar with the operations of one Joe Caulf ield and his organization or business which is called, "Couples for Open Adoption." MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I don't think a question dealing with the familiarity of a government department with a private individual is a suitable subject for Oral Questions. Would the Honour able Member for Elmwood wish to rephrase his question to seek information? MR. R. DOERN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, to the Min ister, I would ask her whether private adoptions are first of all allowed in the province, I assume they are; and secondly, whether they are regulated or mon[tored. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I still would repeat, I would like to see the ad that the member is referring to. But the other question I would present the Minister with the law as it currently stands on adoption as it's permitted in the province and ask if he has any recommendations he would like to make as to how that law might be improved or changed. MR. R. DOERN: I'll take that question as notice, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask the Mini ster again, is it possible for a person in the Province of Manitoba to be an intermediary between people who are pregnant and wish to give up their babies or are persuaded to give up their babies to people in other parts of the province or the country or the United States? Is it possible for a person to act as an intermediary and to actually make a profit by that kind of operation in our province in this day and age? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable member is asking for a legal opinion of the Min ister. Would he care to rephrase his question to seek information? MR. R.

DOERN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I've been called a Mini ster three times this afternoon, it's very flattering in deed, present co mpany exc luded, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister whether the Children's Aid Societies in Manitoba are in fact responsible for adoptions and whether they are the people who monitor private adoptions in the province. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I think the best way to handle this is for me to send the member the legislation that applies to adoption.

I don't know the detail but I don't think there can be adoptions of this sort that are legally recognized, but I would prefer to table with the member opposite the precise legislation. Home Orderly Service MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SH ER MAN: Thank you, Mr . Speak er. My question is to the Honourable Minister of Health. I would like to ask him, what is the time frame for the takeover

Monday, 14 May, 1984 of home orderly service or a similar service by the government? HON. L. DESJARDINS: If the honourable friend, Mr. Speake r, has asked me when we'll be in a position to deliver the service because there is no tak eover or cancelling any agreement or anything like that, we would hope that with the co-operation of everyone it could be a question of two or three months. MR. L. SHERMAN: Can the Minister advise, Mr.

Speake r, whether the department itself will be running this contemplated new service, or whether it is his intention to turn the operation of the service over to the clients of the service. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I don't think it's a question of turning it over to the clients. I think there will be more participation by the clients and service on an advisory board of scme sort. Also, there will be a mechanism put in place to give them a say if there are complaints, to look at the complaints.

Now, as far as who will run the service, the department itself, or it could be some kind of a Crown corpo ratio n. That ha sn't been determined as yet. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speake r, is it the Minister's intention to ensure that under the new system there will be an administration in place that is able to distribute re sponses and service calls fairly and equitabl y, and that it won't be operated in a way that caters to the vested interest of one particular client or receiver of the service or another? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I certainly would hope so, Mr. Speaker.

I think that the services are for all Manitobans, not just a group. I do recognize, though, that proba bly we will have to look at the situation of the handicapped people who up to now have been served by home care. lt might be that there should be a special program for them. I think there are many things that have been left outside of the Home Care Program to apply to them. MR. L. SHERMAN: A final suppl ementary, Mr. Speaker.

In the event that the development of the new service contemplated by the government forces the existing operators of the Home Orderly Service out of business, is it the government's intention to pay compensation for that loss of the idea and loss of the business? HON. l. DE SJARDINS: I don' t think the idea is generated with . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The que stion is hypothet ical. Does the honourable member wish to rephrase his question? MR. l. SHERMAN: I am aware, Sir, that the question is hypothetical. I am sorry that you caught that, Sir. I'll try to put it another way. Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister concur that the concept for delivering that type of service is unique in Canada - I don't know of any other province that has it, not to the same degree that Manitoba does - and that it was an idea and a concept that was developed by the Home Orderly Service Ltd., as it functions at the present time? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I think I would have to argue with my honourable friend that the concept originates with one group. I would say that, yes, we are probably as Manitobans pioneer the Home Care Program, and that is part of it.

I think that this group, this gentleman has delivered the service. Now the concept, I don't think the question of home orderly is something new, it was just developed lately. But to put my friend's mind at rest and at ease, and also the other Memb ers of this House, as I had stated earlier, we expect to co-operate. All the people that are presently working as orderlies Will be given the first opportunity; they will be hired if they could deliver the service. There might be some more demand on them to follow some kind of education or training.

As far as the gentleman himself, as I said, he has pledg ed full co-ope ra tion, and we will take into consideration the time that he has put in there and the time that he is giving us to co-operate and set this thing up. I understand that he intends to stay in business himself, that he has his private clientele with less number of orderlies, of course, needed. Peguis Indian Reserve MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speake r. My que stion is for the Minister of Highways and Transportation.

Can the Minister indicate whether the province funds 10 0 percent the cost of replacing the bridge that was burned on the Peguis Indian Reserve last weekend? 725 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, we have not had discussions with the Federal Government as yet on that, but I would assume that the Federal Government would be responsible for the funding of the replacement of that bridge. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I thank the Minister for that answer and I would ask the Minister that, should the province be responsible for any portion of the funding - which he shall determine - would he be making effor ts to claim that portion of provincial funding from the Peguis Band? Mr· SPEAKER: The question is hypothetical. Wou ld tl1e honourable member wish to rephrase his question? MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister assure the people of Manitoba and hold them harmless from costs incurred of repla cement of that bridge by deferring any costs on to the Peguis Indian Reserve? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Any costs that would be incurred by the Peguis Indian Band would naturally be incurred by the Federal Government; so we would have to have

Monday, 14 May, 1984 discussions with the federal level of government first to determine exactly what the cost-sharing would be and from that formula, then proceed with the plans for the bridge. But I cannot see that the matter that is raised by the honourable member with regard to deferral. would affect the Band itself because. of course. their funding is largely from federal sources at any rate. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Perhaps the Minister could then answer my question as to whether he can assure the taxpayers of Manitoba that the Province of Manitoba will not be unduly burdened through taxation for replacement costs on that bridge. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Certainly I can give the assurance to the honourable member that the people of Manitoba will not be unduly taxed by the replacement of that bridge.

There has to be a number of areas and matters considered when discussing this matter and that is that the bridge was in a deteriorated condition and would need replacement within the near future, at any rate, and the formula for costing or paying for the bridge on a reserve would be the same as would be under other normal situations. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Deputy Premier.

In light of the Minister of Highways and Transportation's last answer. where the deteriorated condition of the bridge would somehow seem to eliminate responsibility and assignment of cost for replacement of that bridge by people who decide to destroy that public asset, would the Acting Premier assure the people of Manitoba that no group of citizens in this province. when dissatisfied with the speed of replacement of any government asset, can take the law into their own hands with impunity, and will she assure this House and the people of Manitoba that such actions will not be tolerated? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, all factors will be taken into consideration in determining when and on what terms to rebuild the bridge. Legislation - appearance of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Government House Leader. Our Session is now just a little over a month old. We're well mto the process of Estimates review. As yet we have seen no legislation being brought forward by this government. Can the House Leader give us any indication as to when we can expect legislation to appear? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, as was previously indicated. it is expected that the legislative load that 726 members will lace at this Session will be exceptionally light and I expect that the majority of those pieces of legislation, in bill form, will be presented to the Assembly before the end of this month. Klinic Inc. funding MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable Minister of Health.

Can he confirm that the Provincial Government funds to a major extent, almost to the tune of $1 million, the organization known as Klinic, Inc., a health care facility on Broadway Avenue, a community health care facility? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: That is public knowledge, Mr. Speaker. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister of Health is enjoying this line of questioning, I'll ask him one more question then. Can he confirm that one M arty Dol in is the Executive Director of Klinic? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Yes, and he has been for a number of years and I think you should remember that from the time you were sitting in the Cabinet, that he was the Executive Director. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker. in view of the fact that Postal Metre No. 801186 is the property of Klinic, and this postal meter is being used to send out solicitations for a $125-a-plate fund-raising dinner for the New Democratic Party, can he assure the people of Manitoba and the members of this House that public funds are not being expended for this partisan, political activity with that postal metre? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: I certainly would hope so; I don't think that the commission has at any time - I'm talking about the Health Commission - ever financed these type of activities. it might be that the soliciting is to help pay some of the bills and that's a different matter. I'll have to check into that. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, if I may, I will table with the Minister of Health a copy of the envelope containing the postal meter imprint and the letter of solicitation.

The imprint on the upper left-hand side of the envelope indicates Dolin and an address in the Maples, so I'll just table that for the Minister's information. MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Order please. ORDERS OF THE DAY ADJOURNED DEBATE ON MOTION MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker, would you call the item on the Order Paper respecting the report of the Standing Committee on the Rules of the House?

MR. SPEAKER: Resolution in the name of the Ho nourable Go vernm ent House Leade r. The Honourable Mem ber for Pembina has 10 minutes remaining. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Friday afternoon when I was addressing this topic, I guess I was a little heavy-handed in my reprimand of the current Government House Leader. Mr.

Speaker, I have a small apology that I want to make, in that I didn't possibly tell the whole truth when I was indicating that the Government House Leader acted incompetently when he didn't communicate with his Government Whip to inform her that a scheduled vote, which comes at the first time Estimates are called, would take place on the Attorney-General's salary.

I was heavy-handed in blaming the Government Ho use Leader for not commun icating with other members of his party, particularly the Whip, to make sure that they would have the numbers here, to make sure the Attorney-General got his salary and not the $1.00 that he deserves; and I must apologize for not telling the whole truth on that, Mr. Speaker, because in tact the Government House Lea der was even at the Estimates at which my colleague, the MLA for St. Norbert, moved the motion to reduce the Attorney­ General's salary. He was even more informed of the issue than one might expect.

He was there when the motion was raised to reduce the salary and he failed to communicate to the caucus, to his Whip, the fact that this vote would take place at the first calling of Estimates, which would be at the earliest, Wednesday after noon at approximately 3:00 o'clock or Thursday afternoon when it took place, and having advance notice of that kind of a vote - which is a routine vote - as I said Friday. The House Leader, when he was the Assistant Clerk of the House saw th ose votes take place on a routine basis.

We had the Minister of Agriculture's salary go down to the price of a bushel of wheat one year, and those are not uncommon votes, Sir. Yet he, in his negligent handling of the affairs of the House and of communication within his caucus, didn't communicate the fact that that vote would be coming up. Mr. Speaker, that brings me to the point that we have been consistently making on this rule change.

We're talking about a rule change on a vote which can come up at any time in the operation of this House, a vote for which there is no notice, a vote which is spontaneous, a vote which can happen within two or three minutes in this House, particularly as we get towards the closing days of the House.

On this particular issue, in which the yovernment had two days notice that a vote was coming, 48 hours notice that the vote was going to take place, they couldn't muster sufficient numbers to carry the vote. lt was 22- 19 in favour of the opposition which would have reduced the Attorney-General's salary down to a dol lar at the end of 15 minutes. What is this government going to do when they are bound and strapped and straitjacketed by a 15-minute time limit which they will have when they ram this amendment to our House Rules through with their majority numbers. What they are going to have, Sir, is chaos.

With 48 hours notice they couldn't have enough people here to win a vote. How do we expect them to keep their numbers up as votes occur on five minutes notice on very short, immediate notice in this House? They will not have the members here, Sir, and do you know who they're going to lean on, Mr. Speaker? lt is going to be you, Sir, and as I pointed out on Friday, that puts you in a terribly untenable and unfair position because you are going to have to personally bail out and rescue this government when they do not have sufficient numbers here to defeat the opposition on a snap vote.

That could bring the government down, a snap vote lost by them. Sir, you will be called upon under this rule change to intervene on behalf of the government consistently, often and, I suggest, with no opport unity for the opposition to say you shouldn't do it. So, this rule change, Sir, is not a proper one. No. 5 on my list of opposition to it is the fact that it comes very closely after our French language debate in this House in which prolonged ringing of the bells stopped this incompetent government.

Now, Sir, if a rule change such as this is needed, then perchance we should be going this entire Session in seeing, indeed, whether the opposition rings the bells for untoward lengths of time to deliberately obstruct the House. You know, Mr. Speaker, if we take a look at what's happ ened in the month that this Session has been sitting, you will find that the opposition in the vote on Thursday deliberately lost the vote simply to get on with the Business of the House, the consideration of Estimates. Our members left to assure the government a majority vote.

As I said on Friday, we did not do this for any particular love for the Attorney-General and for any particular desire to give him more than $1.00, because all of us over here believe that's all he deserves for the way he's handled the Attorne y-Gene ral's Department. Many say it's too much. 727 So, Sir, the opposition already saved this House probably several hours of Estimates time by pulling our mem bers out and allowing the vote to take place, because who knows how the long the government would have taken to get enough members here, to get above the 22 members we had to vote.

We might have waited a whole day for them to show up. And that, Sir, was on a vote which was scheduled, which they knew was coming, which their Government House Leader was there when the motion was put in committee and he cannot competently organize the government business to have communication with his Whip, to let her know that they need to have their numbers here for a routine vote. So, Mr. Spea ker, this amendment will not bring harmony to this House. This amendment will put you, Sir, in the centre focus of heated debate.

Every time the government comes to you and pleads with you for an extention beyond the 15 minutes to save their political hides when they have been negligent in having enough members in this Huuse to assure the carriage of a vote, as happened on Thursday of last week. You, Sir, will become the focus of much controversy because you cannot win. If you decide with the government, the opposition and the people of Manitoba will be against you. If you decide against the government, then you have all of your colleagues very upset and angry with you if you don't extend the 15-minute time limit.

You, Sir, are in a no-win situation and for your sake, Sir, I hope that mem bers in this House give careful

Monday, 14 May, 1984 consideration to letting this amendment to our rules die on the Order Paper. We can debate 1t for the rest of this Sessi on, but let it die on the Order Paper. Why do you want to put your Speaker, our Sp eaker , so much on the spot with such a bad amendment and one which obviously you cannot live with because on a routine vote scheduled 48 hours ahead of time, you couldn't muster the troops? So, Mr.

Speaker, if I can offer some advice, first of all, to the Government House Leader, please get your act together. commun icate with your Whip to let her know when you need people here for a routine vote on the reduction of the salary of a Mi nister which happens in Estima tes regularly and will continue to happen. Please commun icate with your Whip so that you're not delaying the Business of the House. Secondly, let this issue die on the Order Paper, Sir . Thank you. MR. H. GRAHAM: Can I have this matter stand, please, Mr. Speaker? HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker , I intend to move the House into Comm ittee of Sup ply. I believe there may be a disposition on the part of honourable members to dispense with Private Memb ers' Hour today. I would therefore move, Mr. Speak er, seconded by the Mini ster of Business Dev elopment and Tourism, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, and that the House continue to sit in committee through Private Members' Hour. Mr.

Speaker, it would then be our intention to adjourn the House at the conclusion of Committee of Supply this evening as we did last wee k until we resolve the procedural problem of how to adjourn when we don't have a Private Members' Hour. I believe, Mr. Speak er, the order for Committee of Sup ply in side the Cham ber will be tha t we will commence consideration of the Estimates of Education today; upon compl etion of that, move on to the Department of He alth, follo wed by Co-operative Development and Agriculture. In the

section sitting outside, I've been advised by the Leader of the Opposition that the order for consideration following Highways, and Municipal Affairs which have previously been announced, will be the Departments of Ho using, Go vernment Services, Employment Services and Economic Securit y, and the Department of Labour.

MOTIO N presented and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Comm ittee to consid er of the Sup ply to be granted to Her Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Education and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Highways and the Department of Mun icipal Affairs. CONCURRENT COMM ITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS & TRANS PORTATION MR. CHAIRM AN, C. Santos: Committee come to order.

We are in the Estimates of the Department of Highways 728 and Transportation. 7.1a\. 7.fh\ ::�ne! 7 lr.l together TransportatiOn uiVI::.Iurt, .:>aldfleS. UtnE::r Expendi tures and Rural Transportation Grants for the Disabled. The Mi nister wants to begin with a few remarks. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, I want to mention to the members that our Deputy Min ister, Boris Hryhorczuk, is in hospital and will be there for at least 10 days with a rather severe illness that overtook him on the we eken d, so we are going to be proceed ing without him and express condolences to him, and hope that he will be back as soon as possible. lt is a little bit of a blow for our program here but I am sure we'll be able to continue with as little inconvenience as possible. He's in hospital and I guess will not be released from hospital for at least 10 days.

I want to go over a few of the things that were said in the Estima tes and some information that the honourable members required. First of all, I wanted to correct some misi nformation given by the Honourable Member for Pembina, and I think that it's important that that be corrected and perhaps he will feel disposed to contact those radio stations, and so on, they provided the information to so that he could correct it for their benefit, and for the people of Manitoba's benefit, because I am sure he would not like to have misleading information out for the public of Manitoba.

The first point is that the total highway-users rev enue for'84-85 is projected to be $1 45 million; our total budget is nearly $200 million. Now the honourable member had said that the total revenues was $18 6 million and he was including - and this is where he unfortunately provided misinformation to the public - he included locomotive taxes, for example, which have nothing to do with highway use; and I want to mention specifically that he said that motorists in Manitoba will be paying $25 million more for the privilege to drive on Manitoba highways and re venues from the users of the highway system.

He made those references when talking about the taxes. That was where he was mislead ing the people because those total taxes, the motive fuel tax related to highways is only $20 million; the licence fees and so on, is $35 million; and the gasoline tax itself is $90 million when you take out aircraft and locomotive revenues.

So those are things that should be placed on the record and the honourable member should correct his statements to the public because it is very mis lead ing for him to provide that kind of misinformation; $90 million for gasoline tax, motive fuel tax; $20 million attributable to highways; licence fees and sundry, $35 million, for a total of $10 5 million.

Now those are figures that totally then would remove his argument that some $25 million, on the basis that there was $18 6.8 million in reve nue and $161 being spent on maintenance and construction, that there was $25 million - that's how he arrived at $25 million -w as taken out from revenues for highway use and put into the Jobs Fund. it's totally ludicrous, first of all, because his revenue figures were not correct; and secondly, the total spent on highways related expenditures is nearly $200 million, not 161.

We have to also run the licensing program, Motor Ve hicle Branch and all of the other areas related to Transportation and Highways in this province. He

Monday, 14 May, 1984 neglected to include those in his statements. I wanted to put that on the record. In addition, Mr. Chairman, I wanted to provide some information to the honourable member regarding the water bomber purchase. lt is a 15 -year lease. In terms of the economic benefit to the province, Bristol signed a cont ract with Canadair for the manufacture of flaps and rudders for all aircraft under the Agreement 29. The value of the contract is $6.5 million; employment impact, 84 stall years.

Then I mentioned that the probable operating cost was around $500,000; it's estimated to be from 400,000 to 500,000, so that was perhaps a little bit overstated. lt was based on 200 flight hours per season. The basic cost of the aircraft if it is not flown is approximately $100,000 for insurance and storage and so on. One other piece of inlormation that the member wanted was the basis for projections for Estimates this year in terms of the maintenance program and the increases that were assumed in the Estimates process.

I wanted to provide the Member for Pembina with a copy of that, as well as the information on the highway users revenues and the water bomber pur chase agree ment. He can see the in creases that were projected in putting together the Estimates this year. We have, from the experience and the contracts coming in so far, the maintenance gravel has been lower, much lower than estimated and that is a positive development. One other point with regard to the mechanical division, is that the projections year came in quite a bit higher than actually took place last year.

That meant, that because the prices have not accelerated to the degree that was assumed last year, we were able to proceed with accomplishing our objectives without having to incr ease to the degree that we would otherwise have had to. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I cer tainly want to thank the Mini ster for attempting to clarify how his government justifies robbing $25 million from Highway revenues and puts it into the Jobs Fund and still says it's creating jobs in Manitoba.

The Minister indicates that gasoline revenues are only 90 million, which are attributable to gasoline, the rest is for aircraft, etc., etc. The problem with that is, sir, that we have a $3.3 million budget to maintain airports. So you see the departmental spending must consider that in providing the airports you collect some tax revenues, same as highways. The Minister takes exception to lumping in the motive fuel tax. Well, I don't.

I did it specifically and on purpose, because if the Min ister took a look at the study that was made about what it's going to cost the province to replace provincial roads that need upgrading because of rail line abandonment, I think he'd find a figure of 50 million some several years back. Mr. Chairman, that's exactly why I left the motive fuel tax collected on railroad diesel fuel consumption in there, because what better place to put it then replaci ng roads requir ed to haul grain add itional distances because of rail line abandonment. There are no other costs of supporting the railroad in Manitoba.

There are no additional costs in the City of Winnipeg that I'm aware of for supporting the railroad in Winnipeg. But in rural Manitoba, there are costs of supporting 729 the exis ting railway system to the Department of Highways, to the people of Manitoba. That is, in the very least, through additional maintenance costs on provincial roads and highways that are used by longer­ distance grain hauls by farmers who must go to a more distant delivery point because their rails are abandoned. The Min ister of Agriculture is aware of it. He's got it as a problem in the lnterlake and we have it as a problem in our area.

That's exactly why I included that. That's exactly why this government, this Minister are very very negligent in paring, trimming and cutting to the bone, the highway construction budget. They've got revenues directly related to fuel consumption; they've got revenues directly related to the rail roads which have abandoned areas of rural Manitoba and increased the cost directly to the Department of Highways .J hrough, additonal maintenance in upgrading requirements on provincial roads and PTHs.

What is even worse, is that where the department has not spent the money that the government gleans from the railroads on fuel tax in upgrading those provincial roads which are required by the farmers to move grain longer distances, the whole, entire and complete c ost often falls on the mun icipalities which have no cost sharing on municipal road upgrading with the Provincial Government.

That's why I left it in there because it points out that this government has additional revenues; they're not spending them in a job-intensive department like Highways and Transportation which can deliver assets which the Premier, the Finance Mini ster say are good because you can incur a deficit as long as you've got an asset. it's good deficit, but they're bleeding off $25 million - it doesn 't matter which way the Min ister wants to try to weasel out of it - $25 million in highway revenues come in to this department and - only on construction and maintenance which I said in my opening remarks - only $161. 8 million are used on construction and maintenance.

You've got a $25 million slippage and where would it go, Mr. Chairman? Well, naturally, it's gone into the Jobs Fund the same as it did last year. The Department of Highways and highway users in the Province of Manit oba are paying 1/ 8 of the cost of the Jobs Fund in the Province of Manitoba.

And whether we're going to get close to 1,000 jobs out of the Jobs Fund that would have been created by leaving the money in the Department of Highways, in the maintenance bud get and in the construction budget, because you know the statistics that are there indicate $25 million would maintain, create and keep 745 jobs in the construction industry in the private sector. Those aren't there because this government has pulled the $25 million out and put it in the Jobs Fund. So, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister can attempt, as best he can, to explain this government's way out of it but they have pulled $25 million that should and could be spent in the Department of Highways, with not one single iota of difference on the projected deficit for 1984-85, simply by leaving the money in the Department of Highways, rather than putting it in the Jobs Fund. lt's as simple as that, Mr. Chairman.

That's the point I made; that's the point I will continue to make; that's the point the media carried; that's the truth of the matter and that is why the people of Manitoba have a right to know how incompetent this government is and how negligent they are of the Department of Highways and

Monday, 14 May, 1984 of rural Manitoba, and their callous treatment of people who live in rural Manitoba and depend on the Highways Department to get them from Point A to Point B. HON. J. PLOHMAN: There's just a couple of points on that, Mr.

Chairman, the two falacies in the argument; first of all, that the amount of revenue raised by taxes related to the highway system and transportation, has nothing to do with the expenditures of that department, just like it has for no other department, it has never been the basis for expenditur es and that is somet hing the honourable member should reconcile within himself and his caucus.

If he wants to look at his position with regard to, for example, expenditures related to Man Oil and the oil industry, when there's $2 1.7 million per year of royalties, the revenue that comes out of taxes associated with the oil industry, yet they wouldn't argue that it should be reinvested in the oil indus try. They have a great deal of problem being consistent in their approach.

In addition, the total spending dollars related to Hi ghways and Transportation was not accurate and those are the two issues that I took issue with insofar as the Member for Pembina's public statements, that his revenue was inaccurate and the basis that he was using for computing the $25 million was not accurate. So those are the two matters and no one is saying that there should not be, in order to maintain our highway system and improve it to the extent that we would like to see happen in Manitoba, that there should not be a greater investment.

From my point of view, as Mini ster of High ways and Transportation, I would be pleased to see more money into the highway system. However, the computations made by the honourable member were not accurate and those are the figures that I took issue with.

I think I should also mention that if the member wants to talk about rail line abandonment and the effects that that has on rural Manitoba, some of the preemptive work that we're doing there, because certainly you have to look ahead that there could be many additional branch lines slated for abandonment by the railways in the future if they have to upgrade them to full 10 0- tonne status and that is quite possible. We have to look ahead to that problem. What we are doing with that is investing money in rail car development, the lightweight cars, low centre of gravity that could be used on branch lines.

That hasn't been acknowledged and if the member wants to talk about this in total context, he should also include investment that the province we'll be making in that regard. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the Minister for his nonclarification because you know - he talks about being very interested and anxious to see additional construction in the department. The cold, hard truth is, Sir, that he failed. He didn't get extra money.

All this bravado about this bright, new, young Minister going to set the world on fire because the old dogs had worn out in the department there and we're going to replace this Mini ster with new fresh, young blood that was going to just get things going and, by golly, he failed miserably. He failed miserably, Sir. I guess it boils down to the old saying that you can't put a young pup on a hard road with an old dog. That's what has happened and this young pup has just got blown out of the water. 730 MR. CH AIRMAN: The Mini ster of Busi ness Development and Tourism. HON. S.

USKIW: I just want to point out, Sir, that I don't recollect any old dogs being in the Highways Department Min istry, not in the time of the previous administration or this one. MR. CHAIRMAN: May I remind the members of the committee, that speeches in the Committee of the Whole House must be strictly relevant to the item or clause under discussion. If we stick to this rule and then we go to the Minister's Salary, that's the general part where you can argue the general policy. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have to publicly apologize to my good friend, the MLA for Lac du Bonnet.

I was using the term "young pup and old dog" only in the colloquial way. I was not making any personal reference whatsoever and I would certainly apologize to him for his having any cause to consider that. Mr. Chairman, the Minister has missed the point. He says that never have the revenues of the department, the revenue s related to departmental use, been dedicated to highway construct ion. Sure, I'll grant him, he's right, that's never been done, but never before has it fallen so far out of phase than in the last two years with this government.

You see, the problem - it's not that I want to prolong the issue - with the Department of Highway's spending under this New Democratic Government is not the fact that the Mini sters haven't been able to put their message around the table and get extra money. First of all, there's a litany of errors on their side. They don't have any understanding of rural Manitoba because most of their members are from inside the concrete curtain, but that aside, Mr. Chairman, the problem the Department of Highways has had in the last two Budgets is the Jobs Fund.

They have had to come up with funds as has the Minister of Natural Resources which was given to us just a few days ago in the House; they've had to come up with money for the Jobs Fund. This is where $25 million of money that would not raise the deficit one nickel - this is where $25 million that should be used in the construction budget of the Department of Highways has gone. it's 1/ 8 of the Jobs Fund budget this year, increased from last year. No matter how the Min ister talks about it, that's the failure of the government.

They are pulling jobs out of the Highways Department, directly from the department and indirectly in the private sector because they've cut the construction budget. All to do what? -t o put money into the Jobs Fund. Why? Well, they can't put a big green Jobs Fund sign up on a Department of Highways construction project. lt would look a little silly because everybody knows that the government builds highways. it's not because of the Jobs Fund that they build highways, it's because they always have and always will. So they couldn't put up their nice little green sign.

Their propaganda machine could not work if this money was spent in the Department of Highways, so they gleaned the $25 million out of Highways and put it into the Jobs Fund so they can have probably 1, 500 maybe

Mondar, 14 MaJ, 1984 2,000 nice little green Jobs Fund signs throughout the province. Some of them will be on a curling rink where it takes an afternoon to install a ventilation fan but there will be a sign there. There will be nice little boothes in the shopping centres; there'll be radio adver tising. Next elect ion, we will be flooded with Jobs Fund advertising as we approach it. That's the problem this Mini stry has. it's got to fight against the Jobs Fund.

In its loss, two years in a row and under this Min ister, this young new Min ister, it's lost worse than it did last year because we've got the Minister of Finance on one hand telling us that things are looking better, things are starting to pick up in Manitoba, but this Minister didn't benefit from it. He had more money taken from him this year than last year, because the rev enues ,are up over last year in gasoline taxes, motive fuel taxes are up, the re venues are up. But yet his spending is down.

Revenues are up in the Motor Vehicle Branch; revenues are up in other revenue sources to the Highways, sundry revenue sources - they're up. But this Minister's budget is down. He lost to the Jobs Fund. That is what is so fraudulent about the Jobs Fund because the 1, 000 jobs they pulled out of the Hig hways Department, they don't net out the job creation in the Jobs Fund. They just simply say, so many jobs are created, they don't net out the 1, 000 that were lost in the Department of Hig hways and Transportation. That's the point I was making and that's the point, Mr. Chairman, that Manitobans understand. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to say, first of all, I disagree with the premise of the honourable member but I won't go any further than to introduce at this time Brian Johnston, who is the Director of Planning who is with us, and should be able to provide some assistance with our discussion on the capital program which we may get into today. · In addition to that, Dr. John Ray, who is the Director for Transportation Division who Is here and we' ll be proceed ing with Transporation Division shortly. So I welcome those members here. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(a); 7.(b); ?.(c)- pass. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I think we should get into a nice little discussion. MR. CHAIRMAN: We can go to capital expense. MR. D. ORCHARD: Wel l, yes, we could but I don't think we should, should we? MR. CHAIRMAN: it's up to you. MR. D. ORCHARD: Wel l, that's what I say. I think we should have a few questions on this, maybe. Mr. Chairman, last year's Estima tes book ind icated Salar ies - I think $594, 100 was the salary estimate for fiscal year ending March 31, 1984. In this year's book it's $708,000.00. Could the Min ister ind icate the additional $1 14,0 00.00? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, the reconciled salarie s show that there is $708,10 0 last year and this year $697,000 so there's a slight re duction in the salaries on a reconciled basis. MR. D. ORCHARD: The Minister miss ed my ques tion. In the Estimates book last year, it was printed that salaries were going to be $594,10 0, so did you add staff in fiscal year'83-84 that you didn't anticipate you were going to add at Estimates time? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, during the process of last year, Mr. Bill Janssen was added to the staff of the Transporation Division.

In addition to that, as of this year there was an addition of one other staff year as indicated in the printout that I've given you. That is for a Mr. Macdonald. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay. Now surely Mr. Janssen doesn't take us from 594,000 to 708,000 last year; that's 11 4,000. I don't think he got that much mone y, did he? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I've indicated two staff years and these are reconciled figures on ·the left side for this year's Estimates book. The two additional staff years there are the two that I mentioned. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now Mr. Macdonald, the Min ister indicates, is the plus-one this year. Where did Mr.

Janssen fit in? Was he a plus-one last year that should have been a plus-one this year as well? HON. J. PLOHMAN: My understanding, Mr. Chairman, is that there would have been two staff years that we're dealing with here, one added last year during the process of the year and one added as of April 1st of this year. MR. D. ORCHARD: So then, if we were to look at the SYs'83-84 at Estima tes time last year they would probably only show 16. Is this what the Minis ter is saying? 731 HON. J. PLOHMAN: That's my underst anding, Mr. Chairman, we're just checking now. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Now, can the Mi nister indicate the status of Mr. Janssen? You ind icate that he's on staff now. He was on a pers onal service contract or whatever the vernacular is now, at Estima tes time last year. Is he now on permanent staff? HON. J. PLOHMAN: He's on term staff. MR. D. ORCHARD: What is his classification and salary range? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Johnston is a Senior Economic Research Advisor at a salary of 47. 1. He works in the Research Branch primarily dealing with the trucking regulations. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Was the overexpe nditure last year basically covered internally in the department without a Special Warrant?

Monday, 14 May, 1984 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, it was largely from other expenditures. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay, I suppose the major issue - and two of them might come out and I might be in the wrong area for one of them - but the trucking re gulation would probably be the major one. We 've partially gone over that one and I don't think any more questions are in order , but could the Min ister indicate what other projects of researc h the Transportation Division are undertaking? They often have a number of very interesting projects on the go and the Min ister might want to share some of them with us. HON.

J. PLOHMAN: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, there are about 17 policy issues currently un der review by the Transportation Division including, right at the forefront, there would be the Churchill Initiatives working on the subagreements that have just recently been signed with the Federal Government which will entail a great deal of additional work. The Canadian Transport Commission review of rail interswitching regulations, - (Interjection) - no, in addition to that.

The Canadian Transport Commission review of The US Staggers Act of Canadian Shi ppers and Railways; the Transport Canada review of collective rail pricing; rail line abandonment hearings, of course, which the re have been several of in the last couple of years; the Rail Branch Line Rehabilitation Program; the Acquisition of Abandoned Rail Right-of­ Way; the Canadian Transport Commission hearings; the CNR Station agency closings in Northern Manitoba that members may be aware of; the legislation regarding transportation of dangerous commodities by rail; canola crushers of Western Canada; the rate parity and development incent ives; joint track usage; Marine conventions; Arctic Marine Services policy; Thunderbay rail capacity study; Vancouver rail access study; economic re gulations dealing with motor transport and reduction of operating hours of custom houses at border points.

In addition there is in research and planning projects, the highway rail infrastructure costing study; the task force on motor carrier regulation which I mentioned earli er. These are research and planning. Transport planning network development and statutory grain rates issue; development and im provement of transport statistics. Those are some of the major studies that are ongoing at the present time.

There are a number of passenger policy issues as well that the department is involved with as well, dealing with air transport policies and so on, changes that are upcoming there from the Federal Govern ment ; Via Rail service cuts and a number of other issues associated with those areas. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, has the Min ister had an opportunity with the recent announcement federally to deter mine whether there is any impact in Manitoba of, I guess it's fair to say, a partial move to airline pricing dereg ulation, if you will? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, we did make represen tation at the hearings before this first phase was announc ed by the Federal Mini ster just last Thursday or Friday, I believe. We haven't had a great 732 deal of time to assess all of the impli cations and we will be making repre sentation before Phase 2 takes place. They've issued a numb er of major questions that they would like input from and certainly the Provincial Government will be very much involved in making presentat ions.

We are ple ased to see that the Federal Government has recognized the dif ference between Northern Manitoba and the nature of Northern Air Services, and the fact that remote communities require such service as an esse ntial service and are offering some protect ion. Howe ver, we would like to see some of the benefits that will be accruing to Southern communit ies, also take place with regard to Northern passengers as well. There are some impli cations of overlap of services that we want to look at there, questions that haven't been answered.

We are concerned also about subsidies to rural carriers, for smaller commun ities. That is one of the questions that the Federal Mi nister has ind icated they would like to have input from various jurisdictions, including the Provincial Government and it's perhaps one area that should have been answered before this liberalization, as they call it, was announced. So those are areas.

The stream lining of the re gulations, CTC is to report back within 90 days and I think that's a positive move, certainly one that we have advocated, that there should be rather a strea mlining of reg ulations, he says it would apply also to the trucking indu stry where a lot of compl icated red tape makes it very difficult for carriers to have their applications approved or even considered.

Those are some of the areas that we're going to be concerning ourselves with, in addition to the imp act on jet service to Brandon, for example, where a carrier now can exit from service without having to apply to the CTC if there is a similar service available - however, not the same service - then of course that would mean that perhaps a propeller service to Brandon would qualify as an existing service that could take the place of the jet service and that is of much concern to us. So we want to provide input on those issues and others to the CTC before Phase 2 which they have indicated will be considered now.

MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I'm not finished on this line of ques tioning on transportation. Mr.

Chairman, I haven't read the total announcement by the Federal Minister, but it didn't seem to me that there was any change in the method by which application would have to be made to determine routes to service different areas; and for instance for PWA to get into Montreal or Ottawa, they still have to go before the CTC. lt seemed to me that one of the potential advantages in the announc ement was that to go for a seat sale to major cities the airline didn't have to go through a several month period to get approval.

They could do it - if I understood correctly and the Min ister can correct me if I'm wrong - they can basically announce today, for commencing Saturday, that a seat sale is going to be on the go, and that freed om to price unused capacity appears to be freed up with this announcement. Would that be a fair analysis? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I think we should not lose sight of the fact that there is a two-year phase-

Metndar, 14 May, 1984 in period, so it doesn't happen immediately. During that period applications will still have to be tabled with the CTC but, once in place, yes, they will not have to make applications for reductions of rates but they will for increase. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Yes, a follow-up in regards to deregulation, I'm wondering if the department will be looking at some of the anomalies in the liberalized area, for example, in the North, I understand from the recent announcement, The Pas will be deregulated.

There is some question as to whether Flin Flon will or not, and Thompson will not be de regulated. The reason I raise that is because of the fact that Thompson, for example, has a high volume route to Winnipeg, much higher volume than, for example, The Pas and Thompson might actually benefit more from deregulation than certainly The Pas would. I'm a little concerned perhaps that The Pas might even lose a lot of the service it has under that policy.

I'm wondering if the information received from the Federal Government has clarified that to the department and also whether the department will be following up in that regard. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, there are certain areas that are close to the 55th Parallel where the diagonal is drawn across Manitoba for whether the service is inside the regulated area or outside in more of the southern area where there is liberalized regulations, if we want to call it that.

But they are not absolute and that means that we would have to make representation, make the case for including, under protection, The Pas and Flin Flon, for example, which may be closer to the line or actually outside of the regulated area. We will be making the case for those particular centres. MR. S. ASHTON: I was wonde ring whethe r the department will also be making representation for at least some partial deregulation, for example, along the lines that the Member for Pembina mentioned.

There are several different aspects of deregulation and, as 1 understand th e announcement, one being the allowance of other carriers, other categories of carriers, to service certain routes

whereas, for example, presently in the North you have regional local carriers servicing routes only. But I'm particularly curious as to whether it might not be possible, in those commu nities which will still be regulated. to achieve some better system of having lower priced airfares.

For example, because of regulation, some of the previous breaks that PWA had in the north whereby one could book seats one week in advance and save, 1 believe, about 40 percent on the airfares, they were told they could no longer do that, they had to follow . a two-week regulation and were no longer allowed to cut the airfares beyond their very high level at the present time. So, I'm wondering if the department will be looking at possibly making representations that would lobby for at least partial deregulation for some of the areas which will not be in the so-called liberalized zone. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: We ll, there 's no doubt, Mr. Chairman, that the department and I certainly will be very interested and concerned about protecting the service in those communities and, at the same time, providing some of the benefits that will incur to southern passengers that will not necessarily be available to people from the North. That is the whole question of overlapping of services that hasn't been answered at this time.

As well, we had indicated in our brief that any benefits that should accrue to passengers, with regard to seat sales, should apply systemwide so that all passengers would be able to benefit even in other areas of the province where the carrier may not chose to adopt a seat sale or a reduced fare. So, that is one of the areas that was not covered adequately in this announcement and will be an area of concern for us to address over the next number of months as the CTC holds additional hearings to have specific questions answered.

We will deal with those questions; we will also deal with those concerns that we have with the present arrangement. MR. S. ASHTON: I have two separate questions, but on a different aspect of the department that the Member for Pembina had. I have questions in other areas. MR. D. ORCHARD: Just on that northern air service, Mr. Chairman, If I followed what the Minister said, are the northern carriers precluded from this new pricing on seat sales because they're classified as northern service carriers? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Because they are situated, in my understanding, north of the diagonal line.

If that is their base then they are excluded from the liberal ized regulations. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay, the key word obviously, if that is their base, for instance, dealing with PWA which services The Pas, Flin Flon, Thompson, etc., now that wouldn't be their base so, therefore, would they be able to offer these seat sales under the relaxed regulations a year or two years from now? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That is the area of some uncertainy that we want clarified in the questions that were raised with the officials there at the time.

They were not able to conclusively answer that question, the areas of overlapping where the carrer was servicing other areas, but not located there. So we'd like to see that they would get the benefits in those areas. MR. D. ORCHARD: That brings up kind of an interesting point because, in discussion with PW A executive within the last year, I know they were last summer, I believe, planning a family fare - it was a real dandy deal to promote tourism into the north and - and they were having some difficulty, if my memory serves me correctly, getting that by.

Now that would be unfortunate if the regulations were tight enough that a carrier like PWA were restricted from announcing those kinds of seat sales to Northern communities because there are a lot of people in Southern Manitoba that, for instance, would like to see the whales in Churchill, etc., and the power stations on the Nelson River, and go fishing at Leaf and Lynn and Flin Flon and that sort of thing. I wish the Minister good deli berations in clarifying that area. 733

Monday, 14 May, 1914 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLA Y: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Min ister could give us an update on the proposed rail-bus service into those communities of Northern Manitoba that lost their passenger service a couple of years ago? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, subject to looking up more details on this questi on, th e rail bus demonstration project is scheduled to proceed this year under the auspices of the subagreement that has been signed with the Federal Government so that we are insured.

One of the reasons we wanted it included in that was to ensure that it would go ahead. There had been some difficulty in getting it off the ground, so to speak, and a number of concerns that the CN officials, technical officials and so on had with the operation of a normal Grey Goose style bus on the rails and, in terms of safety and operation, we are seeking to have those resolved as quickly as possible so that the demonstration project will proceed and then it will be evaluated from then on as to see whether it could be applicable to many other areas.

I would like to see, personally , that this would take place because there are many areas in Northern Manitoba that the construction of roads would be very costly and almost prohibitive and if there's a way to provide that kind of service without having to go to a costly new infrastructure, it would certainly be to our benefit, so we're very interested in it and attempt ing to get it moving as quickly as possible and we have some input into that, now that it is included in the su bagre ement that we signed with the Federal Government just last month. MR. D.

GOURL AY: I wonder if the Minis ter could indicate the areas that would be involved in the trial­ run period and would it be run out of Thompson, or just what is the proposed trial basis for this rail bus? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I understand, Mr. Chairman, that it will involve Thompson, Thicket Portage and Pikwitonei and the operation would be supported, in terms of maintenance and so on, out of Thompson. MR. D. GOUR LAY: How many buses are being fitted for the trial period, one or more than one? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, in order to try out the technolo gy there would be one for the first year. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: On a similar topic, in regard to the recently announced Via Rail cutbacks of agents and stations to a numb er of Northern communities, I'm wondering if the Min ister could indicate whether the government has made any representat ion to the CTC in this regard and whether it make a representation at the hearings which will be held in Thompson in June. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I mis sed the first part of the question, but if the honourable member is asking about the station agent closing in Northern Manitoba, if that was the ques tion, we are going to be making represen tation at those hearings and staff is putting together the proposals and positions, paper, for the government at this time. MR. S. ASHTON: I raise that concern, Mr. Chairman, because, certainly on the one hand, while the rail bus would be a much impr oved service, it certainly would be detracted from if the agents and stations were moved from some of the communities on the line.

My other question, very brief ly, is in regard to the Port of Churchill annou ncements; they, of course, tackled some of the lingering problems with facilities at the port and also the rail line. I'm wondering whether the department's doing any work in terms of the number of other handicaps the port has faced in the past, in particular, the problem with the length of the season which is a major concern in terms of the port, particularly the possibility of gett ing icebreakers put on the port; and also the continuing problem of insurance.

As the Minister is no doubt aware, there's been problems in the past in expanding the p ort season because of the unwillingness of Lloyd's of London to insure beyond the existing shipping seaso n, so I'm wondering if any work will be done to overcome those problems. 734 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, there is $550,000 in the sub-agreement to deal with studies related to Churchill, including the potential of lengthening the seaso n.

A lot of work has been done under similar conditions in the Scandinavian countries, particularly in Finland, and we would like to have access to the technology that is available there and seek to apply it to the Churchill situation with the view that the season could, indeed, be extended by two to three months which, of course, would change the economic projections for that port immens ely.

So that is a major area of study under the subagreement and we'd like to see that proceed as qu ickly as possi ble and perhaps have a demons tration project with some of Canada's icebreakers to show that it could be done and it will, of course, have an imp act on how potential customers for Canada would react to shipping through the Port of Churchill; right now, of course, there's some reluctance.

Dealing with the insurance problem, also with the fact that they feel relatively insecure in coming into the port later in the season when they perhaps would not have assurances that they're going to be able to get out of there. Those are the kinds of things that we have to work on. I think, on an international basis, to demonstr ate to the world that this can be done, that the port can be used through a longer season and, once that has taken place, we believe there will be a change in the attitude of customers toward using the Port of Churchill. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(a), 7.(b), 7(c) - Transportation Division.

The Memb er for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: One has to make sure everybody understands what's going on.

Monday, 14 May, 1984 Mr. Chairman, the Mini ster mentioned abandoned railway rights- of-w ay. Could he ind icate what government policy is on the disposal of those rights­ of-way? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The abandoned rights-of-way, one subdivision has been turned over to the province for turnover to the local landowners, that is the Carman subdivision, I believe. That is the only one that has been tu rned over from the Federal Government at this time and I have indicated personally to the Federal Mini ster, and we've done it through correspondence as well, that we would like to see these exped ited.

Right now, as I said, we've only gained title to one piece of land, one right-of-way at this time. MR. D. ORCHARD: What's the cost on turning that land over to the adjacent farm owner, to the landowner? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I believe the price that was agreed on was $75 per parcel. Maybe the Minister of Agriculture has something to add to that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minis ter of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, the Ho nourable Member for Pembina should be aware that there is likely to be a fairly extensive cost to the public with this transfer because there will be cases where there are adjoining landowners in which there may have to be a split in the line that is going through or in between those properties, and we are looking at ways in which to transfer that land, but likely we may be faced with some fairly hefty surveying costs because the amount of land that is to be returned will certainly not be worthwhile to the landowner to pay for the surveying cost, but our intent is to go that route.

The honourable member should be aware that ther e will likely be some fairly significant costs borne by the treasury of the province in order that these transfers take place. I'm assuming the Honourable Member for Pembina supports that move and notwithstanding his continued comments vis-a-vis deficits and the like, stili is prepared to support such a move. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, not only do I support it, I initiated it. Now, can I ask the Minis ter whether this would be the area that we could discuss his transfer of the dangerous goods section? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I imagine, Mr.

Chairman, that this could be discussed at this point since it's no longer in the department and therefore there is no appropriation to deal with it other than that - this would be an appropriate time. MR. D. ORCHARD: My first question, Mr. Chairman, the act we passed last year, has that been proclaimed? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, it has not, due to the fact - and I should say why it hasn't been proclaimed at this time.

At the time that the act was put together, there was some urgency because the Federal Government was indicating, pressing with it that they were ready 735 to go forward with theirs and with their re gulations. Ho wever , the reg ulations whic h wou ld apply, for consistency purposes, to all provinces have not been proclai med officially by the Federal Government. Therefore, there is some delay in the proclamation of our own act because those regulations have not been forthcoming. They're tied up in the Justice Department federally at this time. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, did I understand correctly from what the Mi nister said that the provincial regulations have been drawn and are ready for passage and implementation when the act is proclaimed? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Ye s, that is correct . The regulations are based on the draft federal reg ulations which of course have not been officially adopted as yet. MR. D. ORCHARO: Where does that leave the policing, if you will, of dangerous goods on our provincial highways? Are the old standards, the old regulations applying? Is that what's being used now? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That is correct.

Nothing is changing with regard to the enforcement of regulations until such time as the new ones obviously come into effe ct; we cannot proceed to begin enforcing new regulations without of course their being officially in effe ct. MR. D. ORCHARD: Why is the department, when it's the Department of Transport, rel in qui shing its responsi bili ty of overseeing the transportation of dangerous goods and putting it into Environment and Workplace Safety? You know, you had developed the expertise in that department, theoretically to follow developments in transporation.

I ask the Mini ster, is he satisfied that that expertise and that emphasis on safe transportation will be there with a relocation from the department? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We ll, the expertise, as the honourable member indicated, had been developed in communications with the industry and so on. However, because of the delays and really those delays could be quite lengthy , we have no way of knowing whether they would become a priority suddenly with the Federal Government to bring them forward.

With the situation as it is now, with the leadersh ip race that is going on and so on, we have no reason to believe that it's going to happen imminentl y. Therefore, we felt it would be more efficient use of the pe ople involved with the office that was established to have them offering their expertise and advice to The Dangerous Goods Handling Act that is being developed , which in many ways, is very much related to the tra nspo rtation of dang eous goods, very sim ila r reg ulations and provisions and

definitions and so on. So they would be working in that area until such time as they were required to have an office dealing with transportation of dangerous goods. Then that would be reassessed at that time whether it should be a separate office or whether it should be part of the overall enforcement of the handling act as well as transportation of dangerous goods. So it was felt at this time that they could be utilized there more efficiently.

Monday, 14 May, 1984 MR. D. ORCHARD: Are the - I think if the Minister's - I don't know where it is, but I thought it was in here that there are three people involved. Are they going to continue with their job? Here it is. Transportation of Dangerous Goods minus three. Are their jobs secure over at Environment? HON. J. PLOHMAN: There is still some uncertainty as to exactly how they would be placed, in what relationship, and that is being worked out at this time. MR. D. ORCHARD: Do I take it that these three transfers out and over to Environment may be final tranfers where there is no job security involved? HON.

J. PLOHMAN: The basis on which they were transferred, of course, would be that they have a position upon transfer. However, the exact placement would be something that I think the honourable member would perhaps find it more productive to deal with. I'm not suggesting that he cannot ask the questions here, but just in terms of their placement, that could be dealt with when reviewing the Estimates of Environment, Safety and Health. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, the point I'm making is that the Min ister is saying, we haven't got our act proclaimed, but we've developed expertise which can be useful in the monitoring of dangerous goods tranport in the province. Now, he's indicated in his opening remarks that they'v e been tran sferred to the Department of Environment, Workplace, Safety and Health who are in the process of developing a dangerous goods act, yet he seems to ind icate that the re may be no establ ishment of expertis e over there to handle dangerous goods transporta tion, that these positions when trans ferred may not be secure, etc., etc.

I simply want to ask the Min ister, if in fact those three people are not continued in their capacity as dangerous goods transportation perso nnel, who's going to look after the ship in the Province of Manitoba? Would the Min ister not think that it would be somewhat inadvisable after the length of time the Federal Government has worked with the province to develop a dan gerous goods tran sportation act which has some semblance of uniformity across Canada to end up in the Province of Manitoba with no expertise on the transportation of dangerous goods?

I don't think the Mini ster or the government would want to see a lack of emphasis on transporation of dangerous goods. I know the Min ister can't give me the assurance here because it's not going to be his department but there must be some desire on his part to see that that expertise stays in place. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Yes, I would agree with that assu mption that there must be that expertise in place. lt may be necessary on the temporary basis at least to redeploy them and use them, as I said, more efficiently at this time because of the gap in the proclamation of these regulations and adoption of these regulations by the Federal Government.

There is also consideration to possibly amalgamate the two acts, transportation as well as the handling of dangerous 736 goods and therefore the necessity of having that int eraction. lt could still take place if they were in a separate office, however I think it would be more efficient if they were involved in the process, and that is one of basis for the transfer.

However, it's not carved in stone that they would stay with the same responsibilities during a time when they really have no follow-up on enforcement and so on, and dealing with inqu iries and so on, that they would be doing in that office when the act hasn't been proclaimed as yet. So, during a period of time we feel that is more efficient use of the staff. I would hope that the expertise would remain in place, that if there is federal-provincial involvement, involvement with the CCMTA and other organizations from other provinces, co-ordination, and so on, that they would still be involved in that kind of work.

However, it would not be, in my estimation, their full-time responsibili ties. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, just as a closing comment. Far be it from me to attempt to -w hat would you say - chisel in stone a position for Mr. Shafransky who is one of the three, I understand, that is involved with transportation of dangerous goods. I have had some discussion with your predecessor about Mr.

Shafransky in that capacity, but I think that the people of Ma nitoba are expecting some leadership from governments, regardless of polit ical stripe, in the enforcement of regulations in safe passage or safe transportation of dangerous goods. I certainly don't think it would be a very welcome comment on this administration, who give us seat belts, motorcycle helmets as a safety measure, to abandon - and I'm not suggesting you are - but to ever see the case where a

section of government to deal with the transportation of dangerous goods and developing expertise in that regard would no longer be part of the government format and government expertise because of a desire to reduce and fall in line with deficit reduction, etc. I think the people of Manitoba have come to expect a leader ship role in monito ring transportation of dangerous goods, and I wouldn't want to see this Minister and this government lessen that role that was started up some years back. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well then just a final comment, if that is getting close to the final comment from the honourable member.

I just want to say that he should not assume that this is in any way a downgrading of the importance of the transportation of dangerous goods, far from it. it's a closer working relationship in an area very closely related which I've mentioned. I would, for one, be very very concerned if there was not continuation of this kind of priority in the years ahead as the act is proclaimed and the regulations are in place. However, in the absence of that taking place, I've indicated why the transfer had taken place at this time. MR. CH AIRMAN: 7. (

a) Transportation Division, Salaries- pass; 7.(

b) Transport ation Division, Other Expeditures-pass; 7.(

c) Transportation Division, Rural Transportation Grants for the Disabled. Mr. Min ister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I want to comment on that, please. Just a short comment on Rural Transportation Grants

MondaJ, 14 May, 191t4 for Disabled. There has been an increase in the priority of this area this year by our government, an increase of 50,000 there in the Opera ting Grants but, in addition to that, another 50,000 that is found in Acquisition/ Construction of Physical Assets, Other Projects, down below 8.(e), another 50,000 there which is included for the HandiVan purchase, so we have a total of $10 0,000, or approxim ately 60 percent in crease in this appropriation to reflect our government's priorities for the provision of handicapped service throughout rural Manitoba.

I know that the honourable member will feel very pleased about that having seen that imp lemented shortly before the last elect ion. We are now servicing approximately 20 percent of rural Manitoba with this program. MR. S. ASHTON: I have a brief question related to Thompson who proposed to have a HandiVan. As the Mini ster probably knows in Thomp son they had hoped to put in an application last fall but, because of changeover in city council, they had to delay that somewhat. As a result, they mis sed out on the dead line for the Federal Capital Gr ants for HandiV an applications.

I'd like to ask the Min ister, first of all, whether the province would be able to, either compensate for that or whether there's any indication that the Federal Government may, in fact, reinstate a similar program and provide further capital assistance to HandiVan applications. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, we were able to take advantage of the UTAP Pr ogram for the acquisition of five HandiVans costing about $28,000 each. With the application of the UT AP grants the cost to the communities was less than $4,000, approxima tely $3 ,8 00.00.

That , coupled with the in put from the province and the federal UTAP funds, we were able to purchase those vans. That will be a large gap. We are informed by the Federal Mini ster of Transport that there is a program to replace that. He's had difficulty getting that - and I don't want to speak for him - but my indication is that he has had difficulty getting that through Federal Cabinet and, the refore, it has not been forthcoming to this point.

However, we are continuing to encourage him to pass a provision program such as that so that we could in the future draw down on that for a program such as rural transporation. We are told by the Federal Min ister that handicap transit is a priority with the Federal Min ister and, ther efore, we have some hope that there may be some help there. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(c) - do you want to pass this or not? The Member for Thompson. MR. S.

ASHTON: I just want to say very briefly that it would be great ly appreciated by the Thompson group, because they certai nly had hoped to meet that deadline for the UTAP Program. it's an excellent proposal on their part and the big gap right now is in terms of capital funding and whatever pressure the Mini ster 737 could bring to bear on the Federal Government would be appreciated. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 7.(

c) Rural Transportation Grant for the Disabled ­ pass. Resolution 101: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1, 213 ,900 for Highways and Transportation, Transportation Division for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1985- pass. 8.(

a) Exp enditur es Related to Capital Assets, Cons truction and Upgr ading of Provincial Trunk Highways, Provincial Roads and Related Projects. The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to ask the Min ister about some PR roads in my constituenc y. I noticed the other day in the Orders -in-Council, there was reference to 352 in the Municipality of North Cypress. Does that mean that the Minister's department has sorted out the problem to do with the right-of-way, the design of that road? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairm:m, I imagine the honourable member is ref erring to the Arden, to PRs 575, the acquisition of right-of-way project that is included in the printed Highways project. MRS. C. OLESON: Well, I'm not sure. The Municipality of North Cypress and the Municip ality of North Norfolk were attempting to contact the Min ister over a problem on 352 with a farmer. lt went diagonally across his land and he wanted the road to follow the road allowance as had been surveyed some years ago.

But I guess probably when the road was built in the first place, circu mstances were much different from what they are today and he wanted to be able to use his land. Now, has that problem been addressed ? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That has been addressed in terms of the input from the rural municip alities. They would like to see us continue that road up, I believe, a mile and then connect 353 across where there is a gap at this present time and remove the use of that diagonal across the property that the member is ref erring to.

However, there is no priority at this time to taking over that sect ion of road that would be a contuation of 353, and tying that together could be a consideration at some future time. 1t is not at this time and we had indicated to the mun icipalities that we'd like to proceed with the design that was put forward originally.

I have indicated that to the munic ipalities and have rerCJived recent phone calls to the effect that they're still concerned about it and would like to have another lc.ok at it and have asked me to take a look at it when I'm passing through that area sometime in the near future, and I intend to do that. However, until such time as we would make any changes, the intention is to proceed with what we had indicated. MRS. C. OLESON: Perhaps while the Minister is driving on that se ction of that road north of No. 1, he'd take a little jaunt south of No. 1 on 352 south of Sidne y.

Monday, 14 May, 1984 He'll find that that road - I mentioned it before when the Member for Lac du Bon net was the Mi nister - the road grade is down instead of being elevated and you can imagine the problem with school buses and so forth. So that road is a great concern to some of the people in my constituen cy. Also, on the subject of problems concerning roads in that area, No. 350 where it crosses No. 1 at MacG regor, there was a problem with the Town of MacGregor over the route that was being taken. Has that problem been resolved? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Ye s, there was a desire to eliminate the jogs on 350, originally north and south of Highway No. 1 on 350. There was agreement previously with the council. However, that has changed and it is still a matter of some discussion to work that out with the council. MRS. C. OLESON: I think the main concern with straighten ing it out was north of No. 1 where it crosses railway tracks at several locations. I think the town are quite happy about that part, but where it was proposed to change route south of MacGregor, there was concern about that. So I understand that still hasn't been resolved? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, that's correct. The whole issue hasn't been resolved at this time but our staff are working on that in consultation with the local muni cipalities. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you. Now, going over to Holland on PR 449, the A. M. of Victoria, in conversat ion with them, they raised the point that would like some work done on that, but they were telling me that whenever they broach the subject, it would be a major problem to change the road all at once, but they're not in any hurry to see a major change. What they would like would be some start at it.

If you'll notice what a jogging road that is, the land there is very very hilly, it goes down into marshes. The problem is with road maintenance. with extremely high hills, with ice, there is a problem with school buses. They asked me if I would just mention it to you so that sometime in the future you would be looking at the road with an eye to cutting down the hills. HON. J. PLOHMAN: In terms of priority, just looking at it on the map, I respect the safety aspects and the concerns that the member might have there and that has to be looked at from that point of view.

In terms of the overall grid it would not fit into priorities for upgrading. We have not had any recent corresp ondenc e that I'm aware of from the muni cipalities about that road and there are no plans at this time to undertake any major changes to that road at this time. MRS. C. OLESON: We ll, they asked me to mention it to you. So consider it mention ed that you've heard from them. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Thank you. MR. D. GOU RLAY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Min ister could indicate how much money is being budgeted for the upgrading of the Swan River Airport this year? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I just want to clarify. Was the honourable member asking about how much was being allocated for upgrading or operating? MR. D. GOURLA Y: For im provements to the airport facility, ru nway and so forth. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I kn ow the honourable member is aware of the problems that are associated with that program. There is no mone y at this time allocated for the upgrading, chiefly because of the legal problems that have been associated.

They seem to have been resolved, but they are not resolved and because of the landowner and his tower and the court cases that are involved there, we would like to have that cleared up - well, we'd obviously have to have that cleared up - before any further expe nditures are unde rtaken at that airport for the paving of the runway that was begun in terms of construction I believe, in 19 81. So at this time we are awaiting the resolution of those matters before budgeting additional funding for it. MR. D.

GOURLA Y: If the court case or the problem area that the Minister refers to is cleared and straightened away in the near future, would there be any funding ava ilable to unde rtake some of the impr ovement work in this fiscal year? HON. J. PLOHMAN: As it stands now, Mr. Chairman, the project itself has not been included in the program because of these matters.

Now if that should change before the completion of the construction season, it would have to reflect a repriorized decision and that is not being contemp lated at this time. lt was largely not included because of those legal problems and because of the fact that we have a great demand on our Budget from many sect ors and we felt we could not include it with that matter unresolved and, therefore, would not make it a priority, because of that. 738 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Before I start I would like to ask the Minister if he would convey my own personal best wishes to his deputy who is hospitalized at this time. I realize that he has staff there that are well able to provide him with some of the information I may req uire, so I would like to start by asking one or two general questions. First of all, out of the last year's Highway Program, in total, how many projects that were scheduled for completion last year have not been completed? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Jus t for clarification, is the honourable member asking how many projects that were scheduled for completion or were schedu led to be undertaken last year, because obviously there was a large amount of carry-over each year, there always is, and so ... MR. H. GRAHAM: Those that were scheduled for completion.

Monday, 14 May, 1984 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Again, I guess, it's just a matter of semantics, but the projects that are included in the Highways budget are never scheduled for completion, depending on a number of circumstances, but the carry­ over from previous year is quite high and there will be a lot of work to be completed this year on the carry­ over program. I can go through carry-over projects.

I imagine the honourable member is aware, from looking at the Construction Program outline, of the details of the carry­ over program, and those were the ones that were scheduled last year and were not completed and, therefore, carried over into this year for many reasons. If it's acquisition of land, of course, the honourable member is familiar with some of the difficulties that can be associated with that area, as well as some construction projects that require some additional work to be completed this year.

I don't know exactly what the honourable member would like for an answer, in terms of detail, because we have that detail provided, in terms of the carry­ over program. MR. H. GRAHAM: Basical ly, I wasn 't asking for individual cases. I was dealing maybe in percentages. Was the scheduled program of last year 90 percent complete, 85 percent? I just wanted a general figure. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I don't have those figures. I could tell the honourable member that the carry-over program for this year is about 30 percent of the total of work that is scheduled to proceed this year. MR. H.

GRAHAM: Then is it correct to say that about 30 percent of the money that was allocated last year was not spent? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, that wouldn't be the case, 30 percent of this year's money will have to be allocated for carry-over projects from last year. However, the amount of money that was expended last year was very close to the cash flow budget that was established and that would have included last year's projects plus carry­ over from the previous year. MR. H. GRAHAM: Another question and, again, it's dealing in general terms.

On the estimated expenditures on projects last year, did the majority of them come in under budget or over budget in the tendering process? HON. J. PLOHMAN: In terms of percentages, again, 1 could not give the honourable member, unless we took some time to work that out and look at all of the bids that were in, but if the member is looking for some general trends, we were generally pleased with the tenders that came in last year, and that many of them were under the engineer's estimate.

Of course, that helps us to proceed a little farther along the line than we would otherwise be able to do, so that has been encouraging from last year's situation. MR. H. GRAHAM: I thank the Mini ster for that very general statement because, I think, to assess the health 739 of the construction industry you have to look at the tendering process and if the majority of the jobs were coming in under budget it would indicate to me that the construction industry was not in a very healthy position.

Probably contractors were out desperately paring their estimates, trying to buy themselves the job, so that was basically one of the reasons for asking the question but, if the general trend was slightly under budget, it would indicate that the Mini ster had maybe a little extra money to play around with and that would lead me to the next question. How many projects were undertaken last year that were not included in the program that was tabled with the Assembly last spring? HON. J. PLOHMAN: There was a project that had right­ of-way in the program and there was some construction done on it. MR. H.

GRAHAM: The information isn't urgent. Could the Mini ster table those at sometime in the next 10 days or so, give us a list of those projects that were not in the construction program that was tabled with us that were done last year? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we can provide that. That is really repriorized proje.cts that were not included and I think we should have a record obviously of them so we can provide that information. MR. CHAIRMAN: 8.(a) - the Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr.

Chairman, I just have one question. it's a broad question - a lot of these PR roads, there are big stones sticking out of them - is the Mini ster going to hire a bunch of students or something to at least take those big rocks out of these PR roads? it's an escalating problem? If were not going to fix them, let's pull the stones out of them. Hire some of these unempl oyed kids and . MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Min ister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, we don't have a specific program to deal with - I'm treating this seriously, obviously there is a problem with the condition of many PR roads, a lot of them taken over from municipalities over the years and have not been upgraded. Our problem. as the dragging operation takes place, a lot of the stones of course come out but we haven't isolated this as a specific problem that needs addressing in an isolated fashion. it's an ongoing thing that we attempt to do obviously through the regular maintenance. MR D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman. the Minister received a c< ;>Y of the road information program of Canada, an evdluation of the extent of su bstandard roads in Manitoba. lt was prepared by the trip Canada for the Canadian Construction Association. In the process of summarizing the findings in here, was there any area that the Minister found the research, the numb ers to be not accurate according to the departmental analyses of that report? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we have done our own evaluation of the road system and a lot of the

Monday, 14 May, 1984 in forma tion was passed on to the construction association so a lot of their figures were derived from departmental figures and we feel that they are generally reasonably accurate. MR. D. ORCHARD: I guess that fits in with part of the

summary where they indicate that the findings are based on Mani toba Department of Hig hways and Transportation informa tion. In that regard then, the recommendation and of course it's pretty easy to recommend when you're not res ponsible for raising the money, but the recommendation was for a five-year $10 0 million additional construction program.

Now did the Minister find any fault with the construction industry estimate that that $1 00 million a year improvement program would support an estimated 2,975 construction jobs and jobs in the related fields of equipment, manuf acture and supply of materials production and transportation. HON. J. PLOHMAN: We generally agree that for every job created, direct job in the construction industry, there's approximately 2.5 indirect jobs that are created in support activities. There's no disagreement with the assumptions that are made with regard to job creation as it relates to highway construction. MR. D.

ORCHARD: We ll then, I guess, Mr. Chairman, then if there was $25 mill ion add itional in the construction Budget, the Min ister would indicate that he doesn't have too much problem with about 745 jobs being available to the construction industry and to the Manitoba economy . HON. J. PLOHMAN: We ll, we've as I've said, indicated that the figures and I haven't comput ed that figure from $25 million whether it would result into 750 jobs, but there would be a significant job im pact and any increase in government spending in the construction area.

We recognize that, it would certainly go to the construction industry and associated support industries. We realize also that highways in this province as in most provinces if not all, as in the United States as well, that they are deteriorat ing in terms of the existing system and the ability to keep up with the new construction. We don't disagree with those figures in terms of the need to address the problems associated with their highway system.

With the associated problems in funding re garding our deficit and so on, we are unable at this time and other priorities as well, it's very difficult to provide the kind of funding that is desirable for the highways system. Howev er, as we've ind icated, have provided some expansion ther e and have put other priorities in many cases somewhat ahead of the need to upgrade our highway system.

On the other hand, we feel we're doing everyt hing possible, realizing that· this is a cumulat ive problem that has resulted through many many years of underfunding to the highway system that has resulted in the condition of our roads being somewhat less than we would like to see them. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I guess that is a fair assessment. I guess the next question would be, 740 does the Min ister consider it a priority to in next year's Budget, to try and resolve that problem and get more construction dollars. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Certainly from my point of view, as the Minister of Highways and Transportation, I consider that a priority and will be making every effort to have as many dollars in the construction program as is feasible under present conditions, acknowle dging what I have said that there is a problem with maintaining our highway system to the condition we would like to have it. We will also be making every effort to have additional dollars allocated in this area if the situation arises eve n during the current fiscal year. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, a question that the staff may have to look up.

Could they indicate the traffic count on PR No. 239 in the Steeprock and I want to take this opportunity to thank the former Min ister of Municipal Affairs, the MLA for Ste. Rose, for his

part in announcing the Main Street Manitoba Project for the Town of Morden which enabled the Department of Highways to then

schedule the work on Stephen Street to get that street upgraded. A very necessary project, a project even though it's temporarily disruptive for the communit y, is one that is very much appr eci ated by the residents of Morden and by myself as the MLA fortunate enough to represent that area. I might also point out to the Min ister that that is the sum total of construction in my constituency this year. I don't particularly want to make that a major issue, although, in going through the scheduled construction for fiscal year'84-85, I find there are seven major projects going on in the Minister's constituen cy.

That is largesse beyond what is normally expected for a Min ister, not even the MLA for Lac du Bonnet was that generous to him self when he was Min ister for his time. I suppose, in no small way, this sort of demonstrates what was confirmed during meetings that I have attended in Dauphin, that the ML A, indeed, is in trouble up there and is attempting to buy his next election. lt seems to come with transportation portfolios because we've got the Honourable Federal Min ister trying to buy his federal seat. MR. CHAIRMA N: The member please stay relevant to the item unde r discussion. MR. D.

ORCHARD: My goodness, Mr. Chairman, I don't know how more relevant I can be. There are seven const ruction projects scheduled in the Min ister's constituenc y. We are de aling with construction estima tes, we are dealing with political problems the Minister has in his constituency , and we are dealing with an analogy of a Federal Minister who is buying his re-el ection, as we think this Minister is buying his re-ele ction.

At the height of accusation, when I was the Highways Min ister, Sir , I was accused of packing dear old Pembina Constituency with road construction dollars that was unheard of, and I think I only managed two projects in any one year. Here, this fellow, this Min ister respo nsible for highways patronage in the Dauphin Constituency has mana ged a grand total of seven in one year. All that demons trates to me, Mr. Chairman,

Monday, 14 May, 1984 is the kind of problerr. this fellow has in getting re­ elected. I have to say that, in looking at The Pas Constit uency, there is hardly anything scheduled, so he must be relatively safe, the Member for The Pas but, then again, I notice in the construction budget for The Pas that they are taking over the Umpherville Road, and I wasn't even aware that was a numb ered road. So maybe the Member for The Pas is in a little trouble up there after all. So, Mr. Chairman, I want to congratulate the Minister for a very astute use of taxpayer dollars in making sure his constituency is well constructed.

I wish him luck in trying to persuade the people that's reason enough to re-elect him, but anything I've had to do with Dauphin Constit uency, I can only tell him I don't think that is going to be quite enough to get him re-elected. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I don't kno w whether the honourable member wants an answer to those comments. MR. D. ORCHARD: Of course I do. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: With regard to 239, into Steeprock, right into Steeprock, the count is 16 5 vehicles per day. it's a somewhat greater number along the way because of the Falconer plant, that is Steele Brothers lime plant that is in that area, as well, which is not located right in Steeprock. So there is a larger number that would terminate at that point, some distance. Well, I don't have that but I know there's a lot of traffic that stops at that point, so there would be additional numb ers.

However, I don't have the num ber, this is right to Steeprock, 165 vehicles, and is the subject of a great deal of truck traffic, heavy traffic, and of some concern and urgency in upgrading that particular road. In terms of the other roads that the honourable member has referred to, I don't know that there's seven contracts. There may be th ree or four in my constitu ency, but in looking at the whole area, District 8, the funding is about on par with other years. MR. D. ORCHARD: How is it in District 3? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Of course, the honourable member is aware that some of the other areas that he may have been in volved with in the southern areas in his constitu ency would have received their rather higher priority over the last four years and there has to be an effort to attempt to balance these out in terms of the needs of the various areas and we are attempting to do that. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, is the department putting on special buses to take District Office staff from districts like 3 to Carman office and other areas that have been bereft of construction for the last couple years and moving them up to the Minister's constituency so that those people aren't unemp loyed all summer and don't have additional costs of transportation? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the same procedure would be used in terms of moving staff from certain districts to other districts that would have been used 741 when the member was a Minister previously.

There were many districts that sometimes do not receive the same kind of funding that others do and, of course, this is always a problem that the department is able to deal with in moving crews to where they are most needed at any particular time. I don't think that the member would be reco mmending busing as a most efficient util!zation of the worker's time. There would probably be better ways to do it and these will be looked at if there is more efficient use of those staff in various locations throughout the province. The same methods that were used in previous years would be utilized at this time. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 8.(a) . . . MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, we are not just going 8.(a), 8.(b), etc.; we are going to do the whole works. MR. CHAIRMAN: No, we are taking one item at a time. MR. D. ORCHARD: When did we change, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: I am calling 8.(a), if you are finished your questions, we can go to 8.(b). MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, as I asked you, when did we change the rules, because I believe when we dealt with 7., we dealt (a), (

b) and (c), and we dealt with all areas back and forth and then we passed the whole works. MR. CHAIRMAN: We are . . . in our committee. If you want to take everything altogether, I will have to call them all. Does the member want that? MR. D. ORCHARD: That's the way we have been going; I thought that's the way you called it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Let me then do it properly. 8.(a), 8.(b), 8.(c), 8.(d), 8.(e)( 1), 8.(e)(2), 8.(e)(3) - Expenditur es Related to Capital Assets - 8.(

a) Construction and Upgrading of Provincial Trunk Hig hways, Provincial Roads and Related Projects; 8.(

b) Aid to Cities, Towns and Villa ges; 8.(

c) Work in Unorga nized Territory (Recoverable from Canada); 8.(

d) Access to Remote Communit ies; 8.(

e) Acquisition /Construction of Physical Assets: 8.(e)( 1) Other Projects, 8.(e)

(2) Northern Development Agreement - Canada-Manitoba, 8.(e)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Northern Affairs - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, my colleague, the MLA for Min nedosa, who unfortunately couldn't be with us today, would like to extend, on behalf of municipalities involved with Highway 250, the very kind and congenial invitation to the Mini ster to go out with them at some time in the future this summer to tour Highway 250 to see the kind of needs and sort of forward plans they would like to discuss with the Min ister in upgrading PR 250 as one of the major highways that is involved with upgrading required because of rail line abandonment. Because if the Minister checks the map, he'll find that the area

Monday , 14 May, 1984 in and around PR 250 is one that had substantial abandonment take place in it, so just on behalf of my colleague, the MLA for Minn edosa and the councillors and reeves in that area, I'd like to extend that invitation to you. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I look forward to accepting that invitation, Mr. Chairman. I might add that there are three projects in the carry-over program that the member is aware of on 250.

In addition to that, there is a grade and gravel construction contract on 250 as well for this year's program, so the views of the 250 Association have not gone unheeded in developing the program over the past numb er of years. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, earlier this afternoon in question period we had a discussion with the Minister on the Peguis bridge that was burned. The Mini ster indicated - I'll stand corrected if I'm not indicating his answer correctly - that he believed the bridge was primarily federally financed.

Could the Mini ster confirm that or indicate what percentage, if any, is provincial funding in that bridge? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I'm told that, under normal circumstances, that would be a 50-50 bridge. MR. D. ORCHARD: So the province would b