March

28, 2000

SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of

Assembly.

CHAIR (Sweeney): Order, please!

On motion of Mr. Hedderson, seconded by Mr. Smith, Ms

Osborne was elected Vice-Chair.

CHAIR: I guess we are twenty-two minutes past our

deadline starting so we will get along as expeditiously as we can. The records

show 7:00 p.m. All in agreement? Good. Shall we set a time to adjourn?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Let's look at 8:30 p.m. and check ourselves

after that.

I guess the first thing we should do is this.

Minister, if you would like to introduce your officials, and then once we get

our component back we will have the Committee introduce themselves.

MS FOOTE: Good evening, I am Judy Foote, Minister

of Education. It is a pleasure to be here at the Estimates Committee. Joining me

this evening are, to my immediate left, Florence Delaney, who is the Deputy

Minister in the department; sitting next to Florence is David Lewis, who is the

Assistant Deputy Minister for Support Services; and next to David is Dr. Harold

Press, who is the Assistant Deputy Minister for the K-XII system.

Thank you for the privilege of being here to answer

your questions tonight with respect to what is happening in the Department of

Education. We have come through a challenging time, as most of you would be

aware, with education reform. I think as we go through the Estimates you will

see a reflection of that, certainly when you look at where we have come from,

having started off with twenty-seven school boards and now down to ten plus one,

if you consider the Francophone School Board. We have seen our enrolment peak at

a point in time in 1971-1972 at 163,000, in 1995-1996 it was 110,000 and next

year we are looking at 90,000 students in our system. As you can see, there are

some challenges posed for us in dealing with a dramatic decline in student

enrollment. If we look at ten years' out we are looking at about 60,000 students

in our school system.

There are a number of issues raised with that that we

all have to think about in terms of the number of school boards we have in the

Province, whether or not we should be trying to exist with that many school

boards, bearing in mind, again, the issue we have with respect to geographic

location in the Province and how best to respond there in terms of further

consolidation. As you know, the boards have the autonomy when it comes to the

organization of the schools within their districts. We have given them that

responsibility and they are doing a good job with that.

There are some questions, but you know when we talk

about change in the system there are always bound to be questions. Change is

never easy. We are seeing the results of some of that with some of the protests

that are happening now, particularly down in St. Alban's and Milltown, the issue

there, and we are looking at the Avalon West School Board as well, and of course

with the Avalon East School Board there have been some issues there.

I think by and large it has been handled very well.

The boards have done yeoman's service to this in terms of education reform, in

trying to ensure that we have an efficient system and a quality system where we

are offering a first-class education to our students. The government has done a

fair bit since the reform. Approximately $8 million in savings were achieved in

administration when we went from twenty-seven school boards down to eleven

school boards. We have been reinvesting the money back into the school system.

In fact, we put back $125 million when we looked at building some new schools

and a lot of renovations that were required, and redevelopments and repairs

throughout the system.

We have taken the money that has been saved as a

result of the consolidation and the savings in administration and put it back

into the system. We have also ensured that savings from school closures return

to the board for three years. No school board grant has seen any reductions as a

result of enrolment declines or fewer buildings.

I think if you look at what we have done with the

money that has accrued to government as a result of reform, that, in fact, we

have put it back into the system. There are still some questions out there to be

answered. We have, as you know, the Ministerial Panel which will be reporting

back to us by the end of March. We know that they will in fact be reporting on

time. The additional month that it took was as a result of certain extensive

consultations and a lot of people wanting to have an input into the consultation

process. They will be coming in with their report. We have had some preliminary

recommendations from them with respect to budgetary implications. Apart from

that, I expect there will be a number of significant recommendations along the

lines of the requested history course and whether or not that should be high

school versus junior high. A number of questions have to be addressed in terms

of the allocations of the teachers, recognizing that they have recommended - I

guess we will be putting back more than 300 teachers into the system when we

really could have removed over 400 teachers.

I think by and large it will be a good report, one

that when we have a chance to go through it we will be releasing it publicly. It

will be dealt with by Cabinet and then it will become a public report. We will

have to look at what recommendations we can enforce for this coming September

versus things that we will have to take under consideration.

By and large the school system is evolving as it

should. A lot of work and money has gone into it, and certainly there has been a

lot of challenges there, but challenges that we look forward to.

CHAIR: Thank you, minister.

We are still short one Committee member, but I would

ask right now, for the record, each Committee member to introduce themselves,

beginning with Tom.

MR. HEDDERSON: Tom Hedderson, Harbour

Main-Whitbourne.

MR. COLLINS: Randy Collins, Labrador West.

MR. SMITH: Gerald Smith, Port au Port.

MR. REID: Gerry Reid, Twillingate & Fogo.

MR. WALSH: Jim Walsh, Conception Bay East & Bell

Island.

CHAIR: Somewhere in the building is Sheila

Osborne.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Okay.

Before we proceed and start our debate, I would ask

each person as they speak to identify themselves for the matter of recording.

Just identify who you are before you start speaking.

Elizabeth, shall we call the first head?

CLERK: 1.l.01.

CHAIR: 1.1.01.

We start with the budget on the department and go

through the subheads. We will go to the first one.

WITNESS: Mr. Chairman, we are ready for the vote.

CHAIR: You are ready for the vote? I do not think,

hey, Tom?

MR. HEDDERSON: No, (inaudible).

CHAIR: Under 1.1.01, do you have any discussion?

WITNESS: No, that is okay for me.

CHAIR: All the discussion is carried under that

subhead. The floor is open for questions.

MR. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, this is just a

suggestion. It might be better that if anybody who wants to just move around,

let them just go through it item by item. Take ten minutes each around and

(inaudible).

CHAIR: Call their subheads at the end for total.

Okay. Who is first? Tom, do you have some questions?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes. Under General Administration

1.2.02, Administrative Support, was there a position added there, minister?

MS FOOTE: In .01, Salaries, there?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MS FOOTE: Actually there was a time lag in filling

some vacant positions. That is why you see the difference in the 1999-2000

budget versus revised - for example, the Manager of Financial Operations and

Systems Analysis - so that is the difference there.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under Information Technology, that

increased as well. With the Information Technology, is that equipment or

services - the purchase of new equipment or services?

MS FOOTE: Additional systems and development for

the testings and evaluation unit, and for student support services, so it is

more computerization of existing systems.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under 1.2.03., Assistance To

Educational Agencies And Advisory Committees, under 10., Grants and Subsidies,

what is the breakdown of that? What is included under that particular section?

MS FOOTE: There are a variety of different

organizations that receive support. We have a whole listing: the Newfoundland

and Labrador Women's Institute; the Council of Ministers of Education. That is

an annual amount that is paid; that is our contribution to that Council, which

is $34,500. We have the Canadian Education Association, and that would be

$25,800; the Federation of School Councils, $30,000; the Newfoundland and

Labrador School Boards Association, Industrial Relations Officer, one position,

$59,600, and that is a position that resides over with the NLSBA; provincial

membership in the Atlantic Provinces Education Foundation, and that is $143,900;

the Brother TI Murphy Centre, $276,000; the Nurses Studies Program, which is the

Nurse Practitioner Program that we support, $267,300, and the Children's Food

Foundation, which was $500,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: There was a jump in what was

allotted, and it was revised and is maintained. Was that a -

MS FOOTE: Remember we announced an additional

million dollars? That is what that was.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay.

CHAIR: Gerry.

MR. SMITH: Not at this time.

CHAIR: Jim.

MR. WALSH: Not at this time.

CHAIR: Tom, back to you again.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under Youth Services, 1.2.04.,

Tutoring for Tuition Program, the $295,000 there, is that what that is, that

there is still some outstanding money that needs to be paid?

MS FOOTE: That is the lag time between when we

would issue the vouchers and when they would be redeemed by the students.

We had budgeted $495,000; they took up $295,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: So, there is still outstanding

(inaudible).

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: Subhead 1.2.05., Corporate Planning

and Research, the research itself, and the evaluation, is that in the field or

internal?

DR. PRESS: That is both, actually. There are a

number of ongoing research activities on the go now, particularly a teacher

supply and demand study that was announced earlier. We have an educational staff

record which looks at teachers, the age, what they teach and so on. It gives us

some good information about who is in a field, what they are doing, and what

they are teaching and so on. There is also the high school graduation follow-up

survey which we do, and some other small things that take place.

MR. HEDDERSON: With regard to the teaching force,

there are some concerns being expressed about - I know, for example, there is a

bubble in chemistry, math, and that sort of thing, that started teaching in the

early 1970s, that will soon be on their way out. Is that part of the research,

to identify what type of teachers we are going to be looking for in five years

time?

DR. PRESS: Absolutely. There is always the

challenge in education, the balance between the kind of demands that are out in

the field and what qualifications and so on they would require and what the

supply is producing at the university. That is a challenge to do that. There are

always problems in certain areas such as math and science, in all areas. There

are also problems in certain regions of the Province in attracting people to go

to small, rural communities versus urban centres and so on.

Yes, we actually have two studies underway now to

provide us good, current, up-to-date information on two things: One is on the

demand side, where the jobs are, where the jobs are likely to be, and what areas

they are likely to be in. On the other side, it is in terms of what the supply

is producing, where the students are going, what they are trained in and what

they are likely to produce at the university over the next three to five years.

MR. HEDDERSON: You are doing this in conjunction

with MUN.

DR. PRESS: Absolutely.

MR. HEDDERSON: What about substitute teachers?

DR. PRESS: I am sorry?

MR. HEDDERSON: The substitute teachers themselves,

are you surveying them as well?

DR. PRESS: Yes, absolutely.

MR. HEDDERSON: So they are all included; it is not

only the teachers who are in the system.

DR. PRESS: No, it is actually the total supply

which incorporates those who are teaching, those who have teaching certificates

and are not teaching, and those who have teaching certificates and might be

teaching part-time as part of the substitute group.

MS FOOTE: I think one of the issues there, too,

that we are looking at is this whole issue around multi-level and multi-age

teaching, and whether or not our teachers are actually prepared to teach in that

environment. That is part of the discussion that is taking place with Memorial.

MR. HEDDERSON: Do you want to take care of that

section now?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Do them all the one time? Okay,

here comes my compadre.

Under Financial Assistance, the first

section there,

2.1.01,, Teaching Services, the 108 positions that are going to be let go, is

there any indication which type of positions or is it just from the general

allocation? Is it going to be classroom teachers, special ed teachers, guidance,

or is it just right across the board?

MS FOOTE: Well, we will wait on the ministerial

panel for that. What we asked them for was to give us some indication, in terms

of numbers, for budgetary implications. It will not be 108 teachers going;

because, if you read the press release that we put out, actually it will be

probably eighty or less. We are retaining more than 300 in the system. In

discussions with the panel what we asked for was in fact some indication of the

number, but we will wait for their report to tell us how that will pan out

across the system.

MR. HEDDERSON: Of course my curiosity is, of those

teachers - I know, for example, remedial teachers, reading teachers, are a must.

Has there been some consideration given for particular types of teachers to be

kept out of those 108?

MS FOOTE: That was part of the discussion that the

panel had in the consultation process, and I expect they will be making some

recommendations in terms of additional resources at the school board level to

deal with the issue of reading.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay.

Distance Education, that is just salaries there,

right, and that is pretty well standard across?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: School Board Operations, 2.1.02.,

with regard to the Grants and Subsidies, Regular Operating Grant and

Administration Grant, Minister, could you just tell me the difference between

the two of them or what is covered under each?

MS FOOTE: Under the -

MR. HEDDERSON: The Regular Operating Grant - we

will start there - what does that cover?

MS FOOTE: That would be all of their regular

costs, their school utilities, the lights, maintenance. All of that would fall

under Regular Operating Grant.

MR. HEDDERSON: And the Administrative Grant?

MS DELANEY: That covers the directors, the

assistant directors and the administrative staff in each of the boards, the

total administrative cost for the eleven school boards - or ten school boards, I

should say.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay.

With regard to the Operating Grant, does maintenance

come out of that, the maintenance of the schools?

MS DELANEY: Yes, maintenance of school buildings

does come out of that amount of money.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay.

What about something like air quality testing and

such, or follow-ups? Does that come out of that as well?

MS DELANEY: Yes, it would come out of the

maintenance grant. Sometimes, if the costs are substantial, we may fund it out

of the capital account.

MS FOOTE: For instance, we have spent $10 million

on air quality problems in the schools.

MR. HEDDERSON: In 1998?

MS FOOTE: That is right, and we have also now put

in our maintenance budget, $4 million for the next - there will be $12 million

in the next three years, and that will deal with issues of air quality as well

as repairing roofs and windows and general maintenance.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is included in the operating

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: The one thing that I was very

curious about was the repairs, because I know that in years gone by it came out

of the capital - like leaky roofs and that sort of thing - so now it is coming

out of the Operating Grants?

MS DELANEY: The minor repairs would come out of

the operating grants. The boards get about fifty-five cents - it varies, but

fifty-five cents on average - per square foot for what we call regular

maintenance. For a leaky roof, if it was a major job, that would come out of the

capital and it would come out of the new $4 million that we have provided for

that purpose.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay.

Under Student Assistants, there is an increase there.

What is that going to transfer into with regard to hours? Is the student

assistant going to go under review with regard to moving the student assistants

to the students, or remain assigned to the schools?

MS FOOTE: What that reflects there would be the

cost of recent reclassifications. The student assistants have recently been

reclassified.

MR. HEDDERSON: So it doesn't cover additional

hours, minister?

MS FOOTE: No, but you will see the increase there

in terms of the budget and the revised that was, again, responding to the

demand.

MR. HEDDERSON: The three-year deal that you offer,

is that reflected here as well? It is reflected, the three-year deal that you

have given the severely disabled, that they wouldn't be attached, right?

MS FOOTE: Yes, that is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: The decision on that, is it done

now as we speak or it is going to come up for review in the spring? Where does

it go from there?

DR. PRESS: We have a system in place now where

this will roll out in September 2000. The districts have already provided

profiles in January and February. The profiles are completed by schools and

revised in February. The district consultations with our divisional staff will

go on through March, and most of that is already completed now. The division

allocations will go out in early May, we hope, with the deadline around May 5.

The districts will notify schools which students meet the criteria for support

around May 19 and then the parents will be notified by districts in early June,

probably the first week of June.

MS FOOTE: By the way, our student assistant budget

is up 21 per cent over the past three years.

MR. HEDDERSON: This is what I was asking, I was

hoping that it would transfer into hours because there still seems to be an

awful crunch out there. There are not big differences, a child needing an extra

half hour or an hour or one and one-half hours.

MS FOOTE: I guess it depends on how you look at

student assistants and what the intent of the program was. Certainly the intent

was to have children become more independent instead of dependent. I am afraid

what is happening with the system is that children are becoming much more

independent and I think that is something we have to revisit.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is true in some cases,

minister, but obviously, by putting a student assistant with the severely

disabled for three years, it is an indication that the need is there for

full-time.

MS FOOTE: Yes, absolutely. That was the intent of

the program initially. If you were severely physically disabled or severely

mentally challenged that was why the program was put in place, but we are

finding today that they are looking for student assistants if they have behavior

problems. We have seen an enormous increase in the request in that particular

category.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is a real need, believe me.

MS FOOTE: Absolutely, but we should look at -

MR. HEDDERSON: There are some cases where a

student assistant with a child with a behavioral problem can be very productive.

MS FOOTE: Absolutely.

CHAIR: Do you have any questions?

MR. COLLINS: On 2.1.01, Teaching Services, it

says: "The 1999/00 Revised reflects funding for 26 pay periods; 25 pay periods

are budgeted in 2000/01." What does that mean, really?

MS FOOTE: That is the number of pay periods in the

year.

MR. COLLINS: That is just the way it works out for

that year.

MS FOOTE: Yes, there will be one less pay period.

MR. COLLINS: Under 2.1.02.10, School Board

Operations, Grants and Subsidies, is there a breakdown on what per cent of that

is spent, for example, to the different school boards?

MS FOOTE: It would vary from board to board.

MR. COLLINS: Yes. I am just wondering -

MS FOOTE: They are given the block funding to

cover their operating costs. Of course, the various costs of utilities and so on

would vary from board to board.

MR. COLLINS: I am thinking in terms of,

particularly with the Labrador board, the cost of travel, for example. It must

be a huge chunk of their budget.

MS FOOTE: Yes, there is a significant amount of

their budget that would go into travel, but that would be reflected in the grant

that they would receive as well. Maybe not to the degree that they would like.

MR. COLLINS: I am aware of that.

CHAIR: Sheila, do you have any questions?

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes, I have a couple. On 2.1.02.10,

in Regular Operating Grant, there is a difference from what was budgeted,

$69,938,600 and what was actually spent, $69,311,000. Was there anything lost

there or is that just the way it came in?

MS DELANEY: That is just our projected

expenditures for this year. In fact, it will probably be slightly more than that

at the end of the day. It will be closer to the $69,900,000 mark.

MS S. OSBORNE: Also, in terms of student

assistants, is it now a policy that, for the most part, they will be in place

before the close of the school year in June so that parents will know whether

they have an assistant or not?

MS DELANEY: That is clearly our intention.

MS S. OSBORNE: That is all for now. I will come

back again.

CHAIR: Tom, back to you again.

MR. HEDDERSON: 2.1.04, the Community Access

Program or sites, have we covered all areas, minister? Are there any more

proposed sites coming on stream for this particular year?

MS FOOTE: We have 119 sites in 108 communities.

Fifteen were added in 1999-2000. Let's look at the tab here to see if it

identifies it. Tom, I don't know. Do either of you know whether or not there are

additional sites that have been identified to be added?

MR. HEDDERSON: I was just wondering. There is more

money to be spent this year, Florence? Under Grants and Subsidies, we had $2.6

million and $1.5 million, basically -

MS FOOTE: Yes, in 2000-2001.

MR. HEDDERSON: I just wondered, are all the sites

actioned?

MS FOOTE: My notes do not indicate whether or not

there are additional sites but I would assume that there would be because the

agreement is continuing.

CHAIR: We could probably forward clarification on

that at a later date.

MS FOOTE: Sure. We can find out -

CHAIR: Is it okay with you?

MR. HEDDERSON: Sure, yes. I am just curious as to

whether or not they were all actioned and -

MS FOOTE: Additional sites, yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under 2.1.06, School Supplies, are

the graphic calculators included under that, minister?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is, it would be, yes. That is

the little bubble.

MS FOOTE: That is right, yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Further with regard to School

Supplies, I had some questions from some of my constituents regarding the grade

II language and the elementary science, I think, grade IV. With the language

arts, in a class of twenty you might have gotten six readers, six readers, six

readers. Is there a reason for that? There were no class sets as such.

MS FOOTE: Harold.

DR. PRESS: No, there were basically estimates

based upon what is a reasonable level of support for the language arts program

in each of the levels, and it is always a challenge balancing those two. The

language arts program is very expensive and by the time you get up to high

school and so on the language arts program learning resources are in excess of

$800,000 or $900,000. We have to judge what is a reasonable level of support to

provide students so that they have adequate learning resources to meet the

required curriculum outcomes in that area.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes. Harold, the reason I ask is

that they asked me to find out the cost of them. The school council has raised

some money and gone ahead and put class sets in the grade II class I know, both

in Whitbourne and All Hallows in North River. I just thought it strange that -

it was a good program, well laid-out, good objectives and that, and I thought

that for the sake of another few books it would have made a difference. Again,

it is just -

DR. PRESS: It is a case where, you know, all

children are not reading the same materials at the same time, so there is a

question of (inaudible) supply class sets so they can share them, so that some

students go on at a higher level than other students and so on. That is the

challenge, to ensure that they have the kinds of materials there that they can

reach the required curriculum outcomes.

MR. HEDDERSON: It was a more difficult transition,

I guess, for the parents because as the children moved ahead in the grades that

reader became theirs. They shared it with the whole class, and I guess the

parents were a little bit disappointed that that was not happening, but I guess

the program itself takes care of -

DR. PRESS: These are not textbooks. These are

readers that you will read one time and then go on to another reader at another

time. We believe that the children don't need a reader for themselves to keep

for eternity, that you keep it, read it, you achieve the learning outcomes you

require with that, and then you move on to another one and pass that along to

another child.

MR. HEDDERSON: The other one was the Grade IV

science, I believe. Some of the teachers were talking about - again, it is a

good program but the resources simply were not there.

I had one teacher talking about going out and getting

night crawlers off her front lawn to bring in to do an experiment, and bringing

in recipes, things from homes, and so on and so forth. The common complaint was

that it was a great program but the materials simply were not there that they

could easily go through. They had to go out, or go around the school, and get

the things. Do you have any comment on that, Harold?

DR. PRESS: What you described, I think, is a great

scenario. Going out in the garden, getting night crawlers and making it

adaptable to science curriculum, I think, is fabulous. Whether or not they have

the level of (inaudible) in the science program certainly is a challenge. What

we encourage is for people to use the science of the surrounding environment.

What you are describing actually is some good teaching.

MR. HEDDERSON: Minister, the graphic calculators,

it has been a struggle in the schools to have those. Obviously the graphic

calculators now are put into the schools because they are a necessary resource

for the math course that has been developed for - is it the one that was

developed for September past or the one coming up?

DR. PRESS: Currently.

MR. HEDDERSON: The current one that is right now.

DR. PRESS: And all future.

MR. HEDDERSON: I might add that we have had a

struggle in the schools, in most case, just to provide the instructor with the

graphic calculator. To see it put throughout the schools is certainly a step

forward, there is no doubt.

MS FOOTE: Actually, it is a credit to one of the

teachers who e-mailed me, Dennis Ivany, to ask if we would consider doing this

because the cost was something like $125 per calculator. What we will do is have

a set in the class for the teacher, as well as one for every two students.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, it is going to be allotted

out to the schools or to the boards? I know a principal who unfortunately, two

weeks before your announcement - or fortunately - went out and bought a class

set. He held on to the bill, he said.

MS FOOTE: We will go to tender.

MR. HEDDERSON: So you are going to provide them.

It is just going to be a supply that goes out.

MS FOOTE: We may have to do it through the boards,

because obviously they deal with all the schools, apart from the department

mailing it out to the schools.

MR. HEDDERSON: Is this going to be available for

every child or just for the class set?

MS FOOTE: There will be a set for every two

children.

DR. PRESS: These will be essentially school sets.

It will be up to the school to monitor them, to ensure there is no loss and so

on, and to arrange for this in supplementary courses they do. If I might point

out, it is not just the calculator. It also includes overhead projectors by

which you can use the calculator and actually put it up on the white board

behind you and actually do demonstrations for children and so on, which is

critical to this whole process.

MS FOOTE: The cost is such is that we have to try

to ensure they are returned to the school when the children are finished with

them.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is going to be the problem,

because all the break-ins that I ever had, guess what was the first thing that

went? The graphic calculators.

MS FOOTE: We have checked with the other provinces

who in fact have been providing these, and they found the loss to be very

minimal.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, if it is in the hands of the

school it should be quite alright.

Does anybody else want to pitch in? Sheila?

MS S. OSBORNE: On page 183, under Language

Programs, 2.2.02., all costs are recovered from the federal government. The

$406,100, that is not going to be recoverable, is it?

MS FOOTE: Where are you, Sheila?

MS S. OSBORNE: Page 183, under 2.2.02., on the

very last line there. It looks like the federal government - the anticipated

revenue is $2,001,500 and it looks like there is going to be an expenditure from

the Province of $406,100.

MS DELANEY: No, at the end of the day there will

not be a net expenditure to the Province. That is more the timing of when we get

the cash from the federal government. We will get the $400,000, but probably the

following fiscal year.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

CHAIR: Mr. Hedderson.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under 2.1.08., Capital, there are

blanks there. Again, I know there is money allotted.

MS FOOTE: I am sorry. Where are you?

MR. HEDDERSON: Subhead 2.1.08., Newfoundland and

Labrador Education Investment Corporation.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: The $125 million sticks out in my

mind. Is that covered somewhere else?

MS FOOTE: The money would flow through the EIC and

this would be the installment, $5,550,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is this year's?

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MS DELANEY: If I may, government has already put

$50 million of the $125 million into the EIC. The remaining $75 million, in

fact, will actually be borrowed money and provided to the EIC depending on the

cash flows. This is an additional $5.5 million over and above the $125 million.

MR. HEDDERSON: Has that money already been

earmarked, Minister, or is there a possibility of new schools yet to come out of

that? That is all earmarked, is it?

MS FOOTE: All of the $125 million has been

earmarked.

MR. HEDDERSON: In whatever.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Subhead 2.2.01., Curriculum

Development. In the high school, I know three years ago the reorganized high

school was put together. As a matter of fact my child was under those

regulations but a lot of the courses never materialized. Are there any pilots

coming up this year? What I am asking, Harold, or Minister, is: What is planned?

DR. PRESS: For implementation this year we have

Grade I mathematics. We did kindergarten last year. We are doing Grade I this

year, and we will do Grade II next year. We doing Grades III, VI, and Grade IX

of language arts, which are fairly expensive to do because there is a lot of

original materials that have to be a part of that. Once we finish that, then we

will have the complete language arts - brand new - right across Grades K-IX. We

will also begin the development phase of language arts 1201 and 1202, which is

the first new language/literature programs in high school. We will implement

that fully beginning next year.

There were also a number of Francophone, French first

language, courses that will be implemented again this year.

Certainly one of the challenges for us has been

implementing curriculum. Our priorities have been - from the minister's point of

view - language, arts and mathematics. Let's get that through and focus on the

APEF language and mathematics basic skills, get that in place before we move on

to the other kinds of courses that we have.

MR. HEDDERSON: As I said, Minister, under

curriculum, it is something that is near and dear to me because I feel that the

curriculum is not moving ahead. I believe that you have it developed but I am

kind of disappointed that in this area there are not more funds. It is not that

I am looking for more money or anything but I would like to see the curriculum

jump a little bit quicker.

DR. PRESS: Well, there is an additional $1 million

which allowed us to do Grade IX language arts, which accounted for a fair bit of

that, and allowed us to do mathematics for this year and allowed us to do

another number of other smaller courses. In fact, the implementation has moved a

lot more aggressively this year than it has in the last three to four years.

MR. HEDDERSON: I am certainly glad to hear it. The

social studies -

DR. PRESS: Update?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

DR. PRESS: We are embarking on the development of

social studies through APEF but we recognize that we do not want to do - APEF is

moved in K through IX and we are very concerned that we don't develop very

rapidly K through IX and have to deal with implementing that all in one swoop. I

don't think that the schools could deal with that level of implementation. We

are moving fully with K through III in social studies, which should be ready in

about a year and a half. Then we are partnering with them - not fully

implementing - the elementary and intermediate, so if we are in a position to

implement the other areas at that time then we can move forward with that.

We should have the complete social studies - primary,

elementary and intermediate - in a good position to implement in the next three

to four years.

MS FOOTE: One of the issues we have is an $8

million price tag in terms of curriculum development by trying to implement it.

I think that is something you will see addressed by the Ministerial Panel as

well in terms of the time frame for implementation. Instead of developing

additional new curricula, to in fact work at implementing what we have developed

already.

MR. HEDDERSON: I know there has been a fair number

of pilots.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: There was a lot of talk in the

mid-1990s into where we are right now with semesterization, scheduling and very

novel approaches to implementing curriculum, but like I said, I just feel that

there has been a stalling that hopefully we can get beyond and move forward

with.

MS FOOTE: That is why we put in an additional $1

million.

MR. HEDDERSON: Which is very good to see.

At the high school level again, I heard in your

opening statement minister about the introduction of the Newfoundland history

course into the intermediate or into the high school. When would you know that,

or how are you going to go about it?

MS FOOTE: That has been part of the discussion

that the Ministerial Panel has had as they talked about curriculum in the school

system and they will, I expect, come in with a recommendation on where it should

rest. We will wait until we get the report to find out whether or not they are

going to recommend that it is junior high versus high, and if there will be any

other recommendation in conjunction with that with respect to an aggressive

program in the high school.

The objective is obviously to ensure that our students

have a better understanding of their history, and to do that you would almost

think that you would need to have a compulsory course. As you know, if it is

high school it is not compulsory, so I guess they will weigh the options based

on what they have heard in their consultations.

MR. HEDDERSON: Newfoundland culture was a

compulsory course at one time, so I guess you could put that kind of a handle on

it, but naturally in the intermediate it would be compulsory just by the fact

that it is part of the curriculum.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, I am encouraged. I wish it

was tomorrow but I guess we have to wait. I think you are looking at it over two

years and the money is there for it?

MS FOOTE: It would take that long by the time you

developed a text.

MR. HEDDERSON: The other thing about curriculum

development, I guess, is it is all right to develop it, but there is the

implementation. I think I picked up in the budget that there is an increase in

professional development. Is that curriculum directed?

MS DELANEY: Definitely.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is.

MS FOOTE: Absolutely. We have an additional

$900,000 there.

MR. HEDDERSON: Because again the question is it is

no good to put new curriculum in if the teachers certainly have not been

in-serviced, and that has been a challenge, there is no doubt about that.

MS FOOTE: That is right. We recognize that and we

have heard that.

MR. HEDDERSON: The other thing about curriculum is

that I am reading a lot about the spelling programs. Excuse me, I don't mean to

bring up spelling again or pronunciation or phonics.

MS FOOTE: Is that goose or Gosse?

MR. HEDDERSON: I know there are lots of programs

out there and I understand that you are probably under a bit of pressure to pick

this one or that one or whatever. Have you considered anything with regard -

because reading especially with remedial kids is an area that needs to be

addressed - to developing your own program in reading or taking on a program or

anything of that nature?

MS FOOTE: You have hit on something very near and

dear to me in terms of the literacy level in our Province. I get really

concerned when I hear of children in school and graduating who cannot read. One

of the things we are focusing on certainly is to ensure that our teachers get

more in the way of professional development in terms of knowing how to teach

reading, and teachers will readily acknowledge that that is a difficult area for

them. That again goes back to Memorial and the training they get when they are

going through the Faculty of Education. We have had discussions with Memorial on

that.

One of the issues we are faced with, of course, is

that there are always these wonderful reading programs, whether it is Bridges,

Reading Recovery or Spell Read Canada, and different boards have opted to

introduce different programs. I brought this up at a meeting with my Atlantic

counterparts because I saw it as an issue not just for Newfoundland and Labrador

but for the Atlantic Provinces and for the country as a whole. I am pleased to

say that, certainly in the Atlantic Provinces, we have undertaken to now look at

all of these different programs that are offered in the schools, to look at what

our other Atlantic Provinces are doing, and see if we cannot come up with some

kind of consistent approach to dealing with a problem of reading, whether or not

it is to identify a particular program that is offered or to find the best out

of the lot. It is part of an ongoing research project we have asked and

undertaken. As far as I know, Harold, that is under way?

DR. PRESS: Yes. We have hired a researcher now,

Suzanne Ziegler, and that study is underway and should be completed by this

fall. In fact, that is a concern of all four Atlantic Provinces and so on,

because you see these different emphasis, Reading Recovery, First Steps, Bridges

and so on. The question is what works, what does not work - maybe they all do -

and if they all work in some way, trying to define what it is they are doing

right, and trying to sort of bridge that, add value to that and integrate it in

some way into the school activities.

MR. HEDDERSON: I know that MUN had a successful

reading institute, I guess, at one time. Has there been any consideration given

to support MUN in research? Because I used to refer children to MUN at one time.

They would go in and register for Saturdays or something. It was a good program

and a good place to help children who were reading. The research is going to be

done, but is MUN going to be dragged into it as well so that they are able to be

part of it?

DR. PRESS: Yes, all the universities are surveyed

and are part of this particular research. Many universities are doing some of

their own research on top of that. MUN is involved in a number of different

projects and so on through its professors who are involved in teaching reading

and so on. Also a big part of this - one that has been recognized in this budget

- has been the professional development of teachers in this, and be able to

provide them with the skills and abilities to be able to teach reading and so

on. The significant focus of that professional development will be on reading,

and focusing specifically on primary to have the biggest impact you can on the

one part where you can really significantly make a difference on reading; and

that is in primary, prior to age eight.

MS FOOTE: In conjunction with that Tom, if I may,

of course there is the whole strategic literacy plan that we are working on as

well and recognizing that we really need to get to children even before they

start school. If you listen to what Dr. Fraser Mustard says, between the ages of

three and five is when children have the greatest ability to absorb. The

objective being that every child should know how to read before they graduate

from grade III. That is not the case today, and I think that is certainly a

focus for us, and that is where we are focusing our attention.

MR. HEDDERSON: Reading recovery in the

intermediate grades, in the high school grades, is very difficult, as you

pointed out.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: The professional development

obviously is the key, and I would much prefer to see our teachers with a lot of

different strategies rather than being tied into a phonics program or whatever

the case is.

MS FOOTE: Absolutely.

MR. HEDDERSON: As a matter of fact, I am quite

wary of these cure-all programs.

MS FOOTE: Yes, because of course it takes a

certain controlled environment for them to be successful and that is not always

the case.

CHAIR: Randy, do you have any -

MR. COLLINS: No, I am just (inaudible).

CHAIR: Sheila.

MS S. OSBORNE: I just want to ask a general

question. Can a policy be implemented whereby Memorial University could furnish

to high school principals the results of how the students from that high school

did, which would enable the principal and the high school teachers to know the

success or failure of certain programs that they have in the high school?

MS FOOTE: Do you mean students that go on into the

faculty?

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes, students that go on to MUN. I

have heard some principals talk about that and they say: We do certain programs

and we are not really sure how successful they are in the big picture, once the

high school students go on to MUN. They have said to me that they would like to

get feedback. I don't know if policy could be implement at the provincial level

or if there could be suggestions made or whatever, but I think it would be very

useful for high school teachers and the principal to know the success rate of

programs they had in the school: for instance, a math program or a language arts

program or whatever.

MS FOOTE: It is probably pretty obvious in some

instances, certainly in terms of the math program, that we are facing some

difficult problems there. The principals would certainly be aware that there is

an issue there. I think, Sheila, there are a lot of things around this that we

have to look at, and certainly one is whether or not we go back to public exams

again. That would give any principal an indication of how well the students have

done in terms of their acceptance into Memorial. That is part of the problem we

are facing now, that without that assessment process -

MS S. OSBORNE: There is no barometer. There is

nothing to measure and they don't all necessarily go in on a level playing

field. Even in St. John's some high schools - and we hear it on open line every

day now with each of the high schools lobbying to get the students and stuff

that some of them - obviously the programs are more successful, or they figure

that they are more successful than others. It would be nice if there was a

continuum to know, or we could go back to public exams and then everybody would

be alike going in.

MS FOOTE: Of course, the other thing is whether or

not there is actually a core program being offered, a consistent program,

throughout the Province that will offer the same - students would have some idea

when they are taking the program that then you could compare how well they do,

do a school by school comparison in terms of how well the students do.

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes. It would be nice, I think, to

have them on a level playing field going in.

MS FOOTE: I think it is important for us to be

able to offer that core, that balanced program, no matter where you live in the

Province.

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes, and it would probably cut out

the competition in high schools. We could close one then without them saying

mine is better than yours, that type of thing.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MS S. OSBORNE: We could rule out that particular

argument as to what one offers and what one -

MS FOOTE: No, there is an issue there.

DR. PRESS: We don't have a policy per se but there

is a lot of information communicated from the university back to high schools.

In fact, the university will often provide information back to boards on a high

school basis, and supply that information about how the students did generally.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

DR. PRESS: So they get pass rates -

MS S. OSBORNE: From a certain high school and so

on?

DR. PRESS: Oh yes.

MS S. OSBORNE: The breakdown, yes.

DR. PRESS: Yes. I don't know if that information

is supplied universally so I hesitate to answer from that point of view, but a

lot of information is supplied back. Some boards request how their graduates did

on a school by school basis so that the information is supplied then back to the

schools as part of an accountability those boards have. I think that really

works. I think the answer lies in what the minister talked about, in eventually

moving toward some kind of provincial examination.

MS S. OSBORNE: Universal.

DR. PRESS: Yes.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay. I was, actually, at a school

council seminar and I heard some of the principals there talk about when once

they offer certain courses or certain programs in the school they are not sure

how successful they actually have been because they don't get the feedback. I

suppose maybe they haven't requested it from the right places. I don't know.

DR. PRESS: I think some of these have been from

the initiative of particular school boards which have requested it, on behalf of

all their schools, and supplied it to the schools. I think some schools probably

may not even wish it if they had it.

MS S. OSBORNE: That is right.

DR. PRESS: Nevertheless, that information is very

good. Plus, they also do the skills inventory now which supplies good

information about how the schools did in mathematics when they got there. This

is for academic students only, but that provides good information back to

schools as well.

MS S. OSBORNE: It would be a barometer of what to

do. There is not much point of doing it if it isn't working, and we are

exhilarated if it is, you know.

MS FOOTE: That is why we are looking at school

level reporting, so we could report back to the schools how well the students

have done. In fact, then they could look at how well other schools have done and

they could do some comparison to see where their shortcomings are and where

their strengths are.

MS S. OSBORNE: Also an argument when they are

closing the school.

MS FOOTE: It will show their strengths and their

weaknesses. I think if you look at the number of programs that are offered, we

have an awful lot of local programs that are offered and I think what we have

done - the department is at fault here to some extent too - is that we have been

approving so many programs that at the end of the day, whether or not you are

getting that core academic program and then a variety of other courses, but it

tends to be that - and you know if you get students at Level III they will tend

to take what are called the easy courses. I think we have a job to do there to

try and ensure that when they are coming out of high school they are coming out

well equipped to deal with the university environment.

One of the issues that I know the panel heard in the

consultation process was that there are so many courses offered and the variety

is such that students are able to take that third year and it is a pretty soft

year.

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes.

MS FOOTE: I think that has to be dealt with.

MS S. OSBORNE: Also human nature when you are

there.

MS FOOTE: Absolutely.

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you.

CHAIR: I think we may be wandering off from our

Estimates a little tiny bit so -

MS FOOTE: However, it is good.

CHAIR: - we will get back on to this. The

conservation was great.

WITNESS: I thought we were moving them all

together.

CHAIR: That is what he was attempting.

MS FOOTE: He just moved them all together on you,

Tom.

WITNESS : I thought you were finished. I am sorry.

I apologize.

MS FOOTE: We were having a discussion.

CHAIR: We got sidetracked there a little tiny bit.

Nice try, Mr. Walsh.

Okay, who is next? Tom? Randy?

MR. COLLINS: Under 2.2.02., in the French

Immersion Programs, I know in Labrador West we had early and the late immersion.

Do you have early and late immersion programs on the Island?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. COLLINS: Have there been any studies done to

show if there is a difference between students who enrolled in the early

immersion versus the late immersion, and what the success rates are at the

competition of the immersion programs?

MS FOOTE: Randy, that has been a matter of debate.

If you had followed the debate with the Avalon East School Board, and whether or

not they should be offering early French Immersion versus late, I am not sure if

there are any studies that would show that there is any comparable difference in

terms of the programming itself and the final outcomes. Do you want to speak to

that, Harold?

DR. PRESS: Certainly the earlier you start, as

programs, the student will learn much quicker. The question is, will they would

catch up? If you start late immersion, certainly you can be fairly articulate in

French language if you start late and go through that program, as long as you

have opportunities to keep it up and keep current with your conversational

French and so on.

While, if you start early, you will likely have a

greater achievement at an earlier age, there is no reason why the late immersion

program cannot work equally as well.

MR. COLLINS: I just mentioned that because my

daughter did the late immersion program. Where it has been in Labrador West for

quite some time now, one of the comments that I have heard quite often is that

students who entered the early immersion program really did not have a good

DR. PRESS: Right.

MS FOOTE: That is part of the debate.

MR. COLLINS:

Whereas students who entered the last

they entered into a second language type thing.

MS FOOTE: It is part of the debate. My own

language is fine. Again, it is a matter of debate. It depends on the student, I

think, like in anything else.

MR. COLLINS: Okay.

CHAIR: Gerald, do you have any questions?

MR. REID: Not at this point. When we are ready to

(inaudible), I would like to have a comment before we close.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Sheila? Tom?

MR. HEDDERSON: Under 2.2.03., Distance Education,

is there any development of sites coming up, or any need for additional sites?

DR. PRESS: Not this year.

MR. HEDDERSON: What about the courses that are

offered, Harold? Are there any changes since last year, or just the basic?

DR. PRESS: No, not this year. What we have been

doing is looking at the Distance Education program generally to get some sense

over the kind of model that we are using, which is a synchronous model. What

that means is a real-time model. In other words, you have a teacher there who

has to be there and therefore your scheduling for the schools, particularly

small schools, has been a real problem for that.

What our challenge has been is to look at what other

kinds of models might exist. As the technology grows and Web-based technologies

come in the forefront and communication technologies become quicker, become

better for us, then we could look at new models. Our challenge in future will be

to look at how we expand this and use different types of technologies and use

different models in order to deliver a wider spectrum of courses to a larger

number of children.

MS FOOTE: It cannot be the avenue of last resort.

If we are going to offer it, it has to be in a good environment, instead of

children stuck behind the school stage somewhere in a room that is not

ventilated. It has to be something that is attractive to the student and the

teacher as well, who will be able to supervise.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under Student Evaluation and

Scholarships, this student evaluation here is just certification, is it? This is

not testing?

MS FOOTE: No.

MR. HEDDERSON: This is just a certification on the

scholarships.

Student Testing and Evaluation, subhead 2.3.02., the

scholarship exam is there and the chemistry, I believe. Were those the only two

that -

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: They are through the Atlantic?

DR. PRESS: Not the scholarship, just the

chemistry.

MR. HEDDERSON: The chemistry, I am sorry.

What is in the works coming up? Is that the only one

that has been developed to this point in time?

DR. PRESS: Yes. We are cooperating with the other

Atlantic Provinces for up to ten different tests in science, biology, chemistry,

geology, earth science, I think it is, two mathematics courses - we are the lead

Province in the development of provincial mathematic exams - two language arts

courses and two social studies courses. They are in the developmental process

and as they unfold it will likely be several years in the works before they are

fully developed and in a position for us to implement. The other part of this is

that we cannot implement the test until we implement the curriculum.

MR. HEDDERSON: Some of the boards have - I know

Avalon West has - common board exams.

DR. PRESS: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Is that across the Province? And

what kind of support do you give to that?

DR. PRESS: It is not universal, and we provide

support as we do in terms of our regular operation and teacher allocations. A

lot of them have the flexibility then, within their own organizations and school

boards, to design district-wide examinations or testing and so on.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is up to them?

DR. PRESS: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: There is no concerted effort, like

you said, from the department to coordinate it or anything like that.

DR. PRESS: No.

MR. HEDDERSON: The student information database,

where is that at right now? Is that complete? What system has been used? How is

it working?

MS FOOTE: The student information database?

MR. HEDDERSON: Does it exist? There is a database,

I know, because marks and that are electronically transferred now from school to

school.

DR. PRESS: I am sorry.

We have set up a new database this past year. We are

hoping to pilot test it over the next month and do some training with

principals. This is simply a way to input marks electronically and send them in.

We can then turn over the final marks probably two to three weeks earlier than

we have in the past. We hope to have this implemented partially this coming year

and implemented fully in the following year. Why it won't be implemented fully

this year is because not all schools are in a position to send their files

electronically and so on. It will require training, but it is well under way. We

are very pleased with how this is unfolding for this year.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, like I said, five years ago

or so they started. What system is being used now, Harold? Is it the same system

that you have built on?

DR. PRESS: Oh, yes. It has been in place now for

about four or five years.

MS DELANEY: By the way, we are trying to move in a

number of fronts in that particular area to try to reduce the amount of

paperwork between the schools, school boards and the department so that we can

do more of this electronically, including in the area of special needs as well

for the upcoming year.

MR. HEDDERSON: Student Support Services, special

needs - you are ahead of me, Florence.

MS FOOTE: She answered the question before you

asked.

MR. HEDDERSON: The ISSP inter-agency, of course,

is a big database that has been drawn up, I know. Where is that across the

Province with regard to the special needs children? There is an inter-agency one

that has been developed. Is that Province-wide? I am dealing with Mary Tucker

down in Avalon West. She has done a fair bit of work on it. Is that

Province-wide?

MS FOOTE: Is that the ISSP?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, the interagency one.

MS FOOTE: Yes, that is Province-wide.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is Province-wide, right. The

database, as I know, most of ours from that area go to Whitbourne. Are there

databases through the Province?

MS FOOTE: This is done in conjunction with all of

the school boards, so all the school boards would have centres where the

information would be collected and stored. That would be done in liaison with

the department.

MR. HEDDERSON: The pathways in the schools have

been a challenge. Are there any new initiatives this year with regard to any new

infusion of funds or any direction you are going to take or professional

development?

DR. PRESS: We have done three significant

initiatives. One is comprehensive professional development. We have done that

throughout the Province. We have also created an advisory committee where it

consists of most of the major agencies and groups that are involved in special

needs which come together three or four times a year to provide advice, to flesh

out ideas, to provide a commentary on the programs: on how well they are

working, and where they are not working, and provide guidance in that area and

so on. We have also created what we call a problem solving or working committee

with the NLTA. We have brought together teachers, program specialists in the

field, NLTA representatives, plus our own staff to really look at how this is

working, where we can provide additional support in this process and so on, and

where we can troubleshoot and so on. That is working quite well as well.

We are actually having our fourth meeting in April,

and we have done a number of things, including reducing significantly, I might

add, the documentation that is required, making it consistent across boards,

developing some parent brochures and so on. I think we have made some

significant gains with NLTA's work on this.

CHAIR: It is now 8:30 p.m. Would the Committee

like to break for five minutes?

MS S. OSBORNE: I do not think we have too much

more.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, it is just the - I have to get

a few questions for Dave over there. I can't have you go home without asking you

a few questions.

CHAIR: Okay, so you wish (inaudible) few more

minutes?

MS FOOTE: He is quite happy without the questions.

WITNESS: Time goes when you are just getting all

this information.

MR. COLLINS: He is getting information for

Question Period.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, I am giving away all my

Question Periods.

MS FOOTE: Yes, but you know what I am going to do

to you in Question Period.

MR. COLLINS: I am not asking a question in this

House for another month.

CHAIR: Sheila.

MS S. OSBORNE: Under 2.4.03, on page 187, the

Newfoundland School for the Deaf, how may teachers are employed at the School

for the Deaf?

MS FOOTE: How many teachers?

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes.

DR. PRESS: There are twenty-seven teachers, plus a

number of other specialists like an audiologist, a guidance counselor and so on.

I think the total is thirty-one.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

DR. PRESS: It has a student population of 103. It

is up since last year.

MS S. OSBORNE: Where are they accommodated? The

appropriations provide for the accommodation as well. Are they accommodated in

private houses throughout, or are they accommodated on site out there?

MS FOOTE: They have a residence on site.

MS S. OSBORNE: They have a residence on site.

MS DELANEY: The funding for the teachers' salaries

for the School for the Deaf is back over under 2.1.01, Teaching Services. The

amount of money that is under the subhead 2.4.03.01 is actually for the support

staff. That does not include the teaching staff.

MS S. OSBORNE: Is that 2.4.03.01?

MS DELANEY: 2.4.03.01 is the support staff for the

school.

MS S. OSBORNE: I was not questioning about that

because I noticed that there, that the salaries for the facility were reflected

under Teaching Services. I just wanted to know for information.

WITNESS: (Inaudible) comment. I know of a couple

of parents whose children are attending the school, and I would just like to say

that they have nothing but (inaudible).

MS FOOTE: Absolutely, it is a good facility.

CHAIR: Who is next, please? Tom?

MR. HEDDERSON: Post-secondary.

MR. COLLINS: Before we get to post-secondary -

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay, go ahead.

MR. COLLINS: - on the (inaudible). What is the

current demand for students for attending the veterinary school in P.E.I.?

MS FOOTE: I don't know the demand but, in fact,

our contribution enables us to see two students enrolled per year, eight in

total. It is a four year program. The contribution that we would make would

enable us to have eight students over the four year program. I don't know if we

get more. Can you answer that, Dave?

MR. LEWIS: In terms of the college, they take

sixty students a year. There are forty from Atlantic Canada and twenty

international students. In Newfoundland, generally, there are about ten

applicants for every student who gets accepted into the program. That number is

pretty consistent across all of the provinces, actually. We actually end up,

generally, with more than two. We pay for two and two Newfoundland students go

from here. A lot of students have residency, Newfoundland students have

residency in another Atlantic Province, and they are accepted as a student from

that province as opposed to Newfoundland.

MR. COLLINS: So if they are going to -

MR. LEWIS: They may, if they are undergraduate

(inaudible) diploma, for example, in New Brunswick, and they would apply from

there and be considered a New Brunswick student rather than a Newfoundland

student.

MR. COLLINS: How many seats do New Brunswick and

Nova Scotia have, do you know?

MR. LEWIS: I can't remember off the top of my

head. I believe Nova Scotia is somewhere around sixteen or seventeen. New

Brunswick and P.E.I. are somewhat lower than that.

MS S. OSBORNE: (Inaudible) Grants and Subsides

figure there that the students who attend would pay their own tuition and costs.

MS FOOTE: That just insures us at least.

CHAIR: Tom.

MR. HEDDERSON: Just a couple of questions. The

transfer from the Topsail Road campus to the main campus, what is the time frame

on that, and are we losing any courses in the transfer?

MS FOOTE: No. In fact that is one of our most

successful offerings by CONA and the demand for the graduates out of that

program. In fact, I would say close to 100 per cent of the students in all of

the programs are employed full-time upon graduation. In fact, I think in some

cases you have 30 per cent of them who get employment before they even graduate.

It is a very successful program, and the only course offerings in the Province

would be through CONA for those particular programs. We are moving on that

immediately.

MS DELANEY: It should be ready in September 2001.

MS FOOTE: All the renovations and everything

should be ready for September 2001.

MR. HEDDERSON: For September 2001.

MS S. OSBORNE: (Inaudible) campus over here.

MS FOOTE: Yes, Prince Philip, on the Parkway here.

MR. HEDDERSON: One of the other biggest areas is

the Student Aid. I would just refer you to 3.4.03. The extra $11 million, what

is it for? I was hoping I could get a question for Dave there but I can't hit on

one, can I, Dave?

MR. LEWIS: The bulk of that is made up by three

categories. Approximately $3.5 million is for interest subsidies. That is paying

the interest on loans while students are still in their course of study because

they don't start repaying until six months after they have graduated. The

interest subsidy is $3.5 million. In loans remission there is an increase of

$2.5 million. I am talking in terms of increases now, not the absolute amounts.

There is an increase of $2.5 million on loans remissions. Those are for students

who have graduated on a timely basis. There is a portion of their loans

forgiven, so the increase is $2.5 million. There is another $4 million as an

increase in risk premiums.

MS FOOTE: The risk premium, that has to deal with

the default rate of the banks. In fact, they have increased their premium from 5

per cent to anywhere from 10 per cent to 12.5 per cent. It is an additional cost

for us.

MR. HEDDERSON: The interest relief for the

provincial and the federal are different, I believe. Are there talks of...?

MS FOOTE: That was the discussion of course, the

harmonization, and we thought that we would have - in fact, we signed a one year

deal with CIBC thinking that we would go forward with the harmonization. Then,

when the banks pulled out of the Canada Student Loan program, it left us high

and dry in terms of the harmonization efforts. I doubt if there will be any

harmonization now, but we are moving forward in terms of still trying to get a

deal with the bank for the provincial loans portion.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay.

MS DELANEY: We are doing a review of our student

aid program. One of the issues we will look at, as part of that review, would be

the differences between the interest relief provisions of the federal program

and the provincial program. Despite harmonization, that is something we will

look at in our own review.

MR. HEDDERSON: Florence, with the remission too, I

have gotten a lot of complaints from students regarding the difficulty - I

think, David, you said it right there, the timely - in that review were there

any thoughts, do you think, of easing up on the requirements there?

MS FOOTE: Do you know what the requirements are,

Tom? Do you know what the requirements are?

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, ten semesters is it?

MS FOOTE: They have to complete their program. If

it is a four year program, they complete it in the four years, plus a year. Part

of the problem we are facing is that you have students out there who tend to be

floaters so they will do three courses and they will maybe take five or six

years to complete their program, but they have ninety days to apply for the loan

remission. If their loan is, what, $22,000?

MS DELANEY: If their loan is about $35,000, their

debt would be reduced to something over $22,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: I know (inaudible).

MS DELANEY: So in essence, if they are eligible

for loan remission we, in reality, virtually wipe out the provincial debt. They

would only be left with their Canada student loan portion for the most part. If

you completed the four-year program in four years you would virtually have no

provincial student debt. You would only have your Canada Student Loan debt.

MS FOOTE: Tom, we recognize -

MR. HEDDERSON: That

part I like, right?

MR. COLLINS: (Inaudible) reimbursement for

parents, (inaudible).

MS FOOTE: There is a problem there and I guess it

goes back to, again, the information itself. It is available, it is in their

material. They do not read the material. I mean, you know and I know, when you

were a student how much did you read of the information that was actually given

to you? Then, by the time it is brought to their attention by someone else, they

are probably late in applying. We are undertaking to do a much more aggressive

campaign in terms of making sure students are aware about the loan remissions

program, but all of this is part of our overall review of student aid: the

interest relief, the loans harmonization, the student loan portion, all of it is

under review. When will we have that review finished?

MS DELANEY: We hope to have the review finished by

mid- to late summer. That is our current target.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, the target. I would like to

see it in Levels II and III, you know, before the students get out of high

school. You know what I am saying to you, that you are right, and I agree with

the closing part of it.

MS FOOTE: Making the information available.

MR. HEDDERSON: My daughter is coming out of grade

XII this year and if I mention loan remission to her I think she would look at

me like I had two heads. It is just one of those things where I think

information and disbursement of information is most important.

MS FOOTE: Absolutely.

MR. HEDDERSON: It would go a long way.

MS DELANEY: One of the things that we do hope to

do this summer, even though the review is ongoing, is to get out a number of

fact sheets, to get some information out in the paper as well, so that students

are aware of the program, because in fairness to students, it is a fairly thick

book that they get, that is the guide to the student aid program. As the

minister indicated, most students probably do not read that so we need to

reinforce some of the messages.

MS FOOTE: We are going to put together a fact

sheet anyway and I said I will share it with the Liberal caucus. I will make

sure that -

MR. HEDDERSON: I would appreciate it.

MS FOOTE: - your caucus gets it as well so you

have all of the facts that you can distribute to your own constituents.

MR. HEDDERSON: I would appreciate it. The last -

go ahead, Florence.

MS DELANEY: By the way, the only other point on

the loan remission program is that in total we are currently spending $5 million

per year for this upcoming year, and that amount will escalate significantly

over the next four to five years -

MR. HEDDERSON: As they graduate.

MS DELANEY: - as more students graduate and

therefore become eligible for loan remission. So -

WITNESS: Last year (inaudible)?

MS DELANEY: Yes, last year our cost was $3 million

for that program. This upcoming year it will $5 million, and it will escalate by

MR. HEDDERSON: We are catching on.

MS DELANEY: - several millions of dollars in the

upcoming years, so it is a fairly generous program.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes. The last thing on the

post-secondary and one, again, that deals almost with my own constituency -

because I have a lot of seasonal iron workers, boiler makers and so on - they

are looking for welding Alberta B tickets and those sort of things, and they are

running into trouble with lineups. Because in their off season, especially

probably from November to February or whatever, they come to me and I have made

a call over as a matter of fact. It just something that I would bring up. Where

would you go with that? Because it is probably only a three- or four-week course

but they go in and they find lineups of probably fifty or a hundred people. Do

you do it on -

WITNESS: Or the timing is not right. (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, the timing is not right. Is

there any thought going into this particular group of people to make sure that

in what I call the off season, when they are not on a project or something, is

it by demand that you offer the course, and however many sign up, and then see

if you have the funds? Or is there any coordinated effort with regard to these

groups? It is not only welders, but pipe-fitters or anyone who is looking for

different tickets.

MS DELANEY: My understanding is that the college

is offering that fairly regularly. In fact, a student is free to go in and write

the exam without actually doing the training, so therefore if the individual

feels that he or she is capable of doing a certain welding test, for argument's

sake, they can go in and actually do the test without doing the actual training.

I only found out that myself just recently in fact. So I think that is something

that we can deal with the college to make sure that they get the information

out, that even though there may be some waiting list for the actual training

program itself, students can go in and actually do the test without having to

wait.

MS FOOTE: Can they do that at any of the campuses

of the college?

MS DELANEY: As long as they are offering the

welding program at the individual campus.

MR. COLLINS: I think also the apprenticeship board

is pretty involved in that as well.

MS DELANEY: Yes.

MR. COLLINS: I know that for a lot of things that

Tom mentioned the timing is critical, because if a course is offered, say from

September to November, that is part of the peak season for construction, and

then they are off for, say, five months, with not much to do and no

opportunities to find a job, then the training should be geared during that

period of time for certain occupations to -

MS FOOTE: If I am hearing right, they can go in at

anytime.

MR. COLLINS: Yes, but the problem is that is okay

for the person who can do the exam without doing the training.

MS DELANEY: What I will undertake to do is to

contact the college and make sure they advertise as to when the courses are

available, when the testing is available, so that way there if anybody is

interested in taking the course and/or taking the test alone, he or she would

know when it is available and at what sites.

MS FOOTE: I guess Randy's point is that it is not

available in the off season.

MR. COLLINS: Yes, there have been problems in the

past, I don't know if there are now.

MS DELANEY: They are doing it now.

MR. COLLINS: I know when I was on the

apprenticeship board that was a regular complaint from some occupations.

MS FOOTE: We should make a note of it.

MR. COLLINS: What they were looking at then, I am

not sure if they moved in that direction or not, was to be more flexible in the

times that the courses are offered. I know you can work as an automotive

mechanic, a millwright or a machinist for five years as long as you work the

required number of hours and go and write your inter-provincial without ever

being in school in your life. A lot of the training that Tom was referring to is

sort of specialty training where you probably do not get the opportunity to work

at it until you actually get the training. So it is not something you can write

without going through the training program itself.

MS DELANEY: My understanding is that in fact some

of that training is currently ongoing even right now at Prince Philip Drive.

They have a regular

schedule of training and they have a regular

schedule of

testing as well. So it has been on the go all winter.

MR. HEDDERSON: Just to get back to my question,

Florence, the coordination of it. Obviously you are saying it is coordinated

from the colleges -

MS DELANEY: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: - and they would come probably to

you for funding or if they had -

MS DELANEY: No, it would be part of their

operating grant or in some cases the students may be sponsored under the Labour

Market Development Agreement or may be sponsored by an employer, so they do not

come to us for the funding.

MR. COLLINS: A lot of times too now I think some

of the construction unions have set up their own training programs.

MS DELANEY: Right.

MR. COLLINS: That way they can accommodate their

own members, at least.

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MS DELANEY: We will speak to the college with

respect to at least getting the information out as to what programs they do have

available, when, and what the testing

schedule is, and at what sites as well.

MR. HEDDERSON: I appreciate it.

One last question on the Literacy, Library and

Information Services, page 194. I think we have already, minister, had a

discussion on literacy. Mine is the early intervention, there is no doubt about

it. The funding does not seem to be there for it. It is encouraged and I think

all the research points to it. I think I made the same pitch last year. That

does not stop me from making it this year.

MS FOOTE: Sure.

MR. HEDDERSON: With the spaces becoming available

in the schools as the decline continues, again, I cannot overemphasize the

importance of these programs and tie it in with your libraries as well. I know

the money that was allotted, was talked about, has been for books. I am sure it

is not only for books because the libraries, where they are in operation, do

offer early intervention programs for children who come in for reading circles

and so on. The only thing I am saying is that I would like to see a lot more

emphasis placed on the early literacy and having the children coming in well

prepared and ready to take on the system. I know from our conversations that

that is where you are as well.

MS FOOTE: Absolutely, and this is why, of course,

there was $500,000 put in for the literacy in last year's budget. This year

there is an additional $1 million. We are working very closely with the national

literacy secretariat so that they will match that $1 million. So we will have an

endowment fund there of $2.5 million that we should be able to do a lot more

with. That will all be in conjunction with the release of our Strategic Literacy

Plan.

MR. COLLINS: I just have one final question. In

section 3.1.06, Skills Training Projects-Offshore Fund, concerning the 1999-2000

budget to the revised budget and to the 2000-2001 estimates, there seems to be a

big difference in the budget and the revised.

MS FOOTE: Do you mean .06, Purchased Services?

MR. COLLINS: Under Purchased Services, yes. Sorry.

MS FOOTE: The money was allocated, but there was a

delay in refurbishing the safety and survival training facility in St. John's,

which is on the south side. So you can see that it is back in the budget for

2000-2001.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS FOOTE: There was a dispute over the property

title there. That is what caused the delay.

MS S. OSBORNE: I had a couple of calls actually,

not a lot, but they did concern me, about single mothers who are out there going

to school and getting their courses completed in time to qualify for the loan

remission. It seems that it takes them a bit longer. They are not floaters, as

you say, but they are people who because they are taking care of a baby, or two

children, or whatever, at home that they have to go home and take care of them

in the night as well as get their study done. They found that three courses are

the maximum that they can do. Is there any thought of giving any extra leniency

to them in the time frame?

MS FOOTE: We certainly have not factored them into

the program. One of the issues that did come up with respect to single mothers

was - Florence, you might want to speak to this - in terms of the double amounts

that were being allocated to them and whether or not, in fact, we should be

taking back one of those amounts. Was that was for living allowance or

accommodations?

MS DELANEY: Living allowance. Even under the

Canada-Newfoundland Student Loans Program now, students will not be able to get

student aid, in fact, beyond the length of the program plus one year. Therefore,

regardless as to whether you are a single parent, or married, or a single

student, you will be expected to complete your program in the length of the

program plus one year. So not only, will you not be eligible for loan remission,

you will not, in fact, be eligible for student aid if it takes longer than five

years to complete a four year program. I think there is a real concern on behalf

of all parties that you have to make sure that the students get in and get out

within a reasonable period of time.

MS S. OSBORNE: From the folks who have called me,

they are finding it a bit more difficult than, say, a student who did not have

the responsibilities of children at home. They find that it is too hard to do

the five courses in the semester, that it is easier for them to do three. I

don't know if they came -

MS DELANEY: I guess that is the reason why you

have the one year time that would be allowed, because most students, you would

expect, would go in and try to get through the program actually in the length of

the program, which is what most of us would do. I guess the one year is provided

for single parents which would give them that extra year, recognizing that they

may have some difficulty in completing the program in the actual length of the

program.

MS FOOTE: Actually, an additional two semesters in

some cases. It could be three if they go in the summer.

MS S. OSBORNE: The other question I had to ask is

this. Students who are attending schools outside the Province - like law schools

and things on the mainland - the amount that they can get here, the amount they

are eligible for here in a student loan, is quite a lot lower than what the

students in New Brunswick, say, could get for going into UNB or Dalhousie in

Nova Scotia. The amount of loans that are available to them here does not meet

with the amount of expenses that they encounter when they get there.

MS FOOTE: It is based on need, it is based on

income, on your parents' income, whether you are dependent or independent, the

contribution your parents can make, and whether or not you earned any money

yourself. All of that is factored in. I don't know that we are any different

from the other provinces in that regard.

MS S. OSBORNE: I think of it in terms of the

maximum that you can get. I think -

MS FOOTE: The maximum you can borrow.

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes, I think there is a bit of a

discrepancy there.

MS DELANEY: That may be the case, but the Student

Aid program right across the country is cost-shared with the federal government,

where the federal government provides up to 60 per cent of the students' need,

and the maximum that the feds provide is $165 per week. Therefore, if additional

money is being provided in other provinces it would be over and above the 40 per

cent share. Students are concerned with the high debt load. The concern would be

that if you give them more money than what is absolutely necessary then you are

encouraging them to incur more debt and they will have even greater difficulty

in trying to deal with that debt at the end of the day. There is a balance that

you have to try strike.

MS S. OSBORNE: The one that I know is not trying

to get more debt load. Actually, it is my son. He is twenty-eight now and he got

a student loan for his second year of going to UNB and when he got there he was

a lot short. We had to sort of fill in, and when he compared with the other

students that were there from New Brunswick -

MS FOOTE: Was he a lot short in terms of the cost

that he was incurring?

MS DELANEY: It may be the eligibility.

MS S. OSBORNE: No. The eligibility and stuff, you

know, (inaudible).

MS DELANEY: It may be a situation whereby when the

student aid people go through the assessment they would look at the cost, they

would look at parental resources, they would look at the student's income, and

they would take that into consideration in determining how much student aid

would be available. Maybe, in your particular situation, the child was not

eligible for maximum student aid because maximum student aid in this Province is

$275 per week.

MS S. OSBORNE: I will check with him and find out.

I didn't know all the logistics, I didn't ask him, and that just occurred to me

when I saw the student loan that he had called and said what is provided there.

I don't know if he spoke with other students from here who went up as well, but

he did say to me that what is provided here is quite short of what they are

provided there. Actually, he is a fair bit short.

MS DELANEY: We will do the comparison with other

provinces if we haven't already done that as part of our detailed review.

MS S. OSBORNE: I appreciate that.

That is it for me.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.2.02 carried.

On motion, Department of Education, total heads,

carried.

CHAIR: Thank you very much for your attention and

diligence tonight. It is a little bit past time.

MR. REID: Minister, I would like to make a comment

before we leave. I have been having a fair bit of dealings with your department

in the past year on a school we have been building on New World Island, and I

would like to thank them for their cooperation and their support. In the past

year they have done a good job. Thank you.

MS FOOTE: Thank you.

MS S. OSBORNE: That doesn't mean you will be

getting a second school.

MR. REID: I don't need a second one.

MS FOOTE: You will get your resource centre.

AN HON. MEMBER: You are not getting one either.

On motion the Committee adjourned.