Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 27B (35th Legislature, 1st Session)

35-1-27b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session -Thlrty·FIHh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 39 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denls C. Rocsn Speaker VOL. XXXIX No. 276 ·8 p.m., MONDAY, NOVEMBER 19,1990 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERIL LI , Marianne CHEEMA, Gulzar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKA CH, Leonard , Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DO ER, Gary DO WNEY, James, Hon. DRI EDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARM E, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIE SEN, Jean GAUDR Y, Neil GIL LESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICK ES, George LAMOU REUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAU RENDE AU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTIND ALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda MITCH ELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUF ELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHAR D, Donald , Hon. PENNER, Jack, Hon. PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darr en, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VOD REY, Rose mary WASYL YCIA -LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITU ENCY Os borne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Rus sell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Aiel St. James Lakeside Charleswood lnterlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dau phin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendr ye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, November 19, 1990 The House met at 8 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-URBAN AFFAIRS Mr. Deputy Chairman {Marcel Laurendeau) : Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This evening, this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Urban Affa irs. Does the Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs have an opening statement? Hon. Gerald Duch arme {Minis ter of Urban Affairs): Yes , I do, Mr. Dep uty Chairperson . Mr. Deputy Chairman: You have the floor. Mr. Ducharme: Mr. Depu ty Chairperson, I am very pleased to introduce the 19 90-91 Estimates for Manitoba Urban Aff airs. I am now into my third year as Minister of Urban Affairs and look forward to the continuing role my department will be playing during the 19 90s.

We will continue to improve the legislative, financial and planning framework for urban Government in Winnipeg. No level of Government can operate effectively in isolation from the others. Many public issues requ ire the combined efforts of more than one level of Government. The current partnership between the City of Winnipeg and the Province of Manitoba is characterized by co-operation, co-ord ination and joint action when necessary.

The partners hip between the province and city strikes a balance between the local autonomy for the city on the one hand and the advancement of provincial interests and responsibilities on the other. Sometimes we disagree . Most of the time we compromise and act. Manitoba Urban Affairs is the vocal point for intergovernmental relations between the city and the province . This includes dev eloping and co-or dinating provincial policies that address major urban issues.

We administer financial assistance to the City of Winnipeg and prep are legis lative changes to The City of Winnipeg Act, change that would hopefu lly lead to more effe ctive urban Gover nment. We nego tiate and implement the intergov er nmen tal agr eemen ts and programs designed to improve the living conditions of our urban citizens. The City of Winnipeg Act is in the process of complete review by my department. In the last year, we have introduced legislation which strengthens the role and authority of the mayor.

Other provisions provided the city with greater flex ibility and established its own administrative structure and procedures. If the city is unhappy with the way the Board of Commissioners is functioning, it has fu ll legislative powers to change it. Lastly, we saw the abolishment of the additional zone. All municipalities in the Winnipeg region are now treated as equals. In the next Session of the Legislature, I propose to introduce other substantive amendments to The City of Winnipeg Act, particularly in the area of waterways and land use planning.

With respect to provincial grant support, I am again able to report an increase in the level of the total provincial grants provided to the City of Winnipeg by my depar tmen t, and $90 million available to the City of Winnipeg under the six- yttar urban capital projects allocation is fully committed as of 1 990 . This initiative has been successful. lt has allowed the city to plan its capital expenditures with prior knowledge of what the provincial commitment is. My department is currently preparing a provincial urban finance strate gy respecting the City of Winnipeg.

A significant component of this strategy is for the renewed urban capital projects allocation. My department is also respon sible for the success and the implementation of the renewed Core Area Initiative Agreement. This agreement is now into its fifth year, and there continues to be a steady level of activity. My department is implementing the Community Service Facilities Program and has approved in excess of 100 projects to date. This fiscal year will see furthe r development of the Core Area Initiative with the Portage Place Y, Pantages Playhouse Theatre and a number of other important projects.

14 63 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA November 19 , 19 90 The redev elopment of The Forks will be complemented by activities under taken by the riverbank en hance ment program , including a planned promenade that runs from The Forks to the Legislative grounds. Recently, I met with my federal and city colleagues to discuss extend ing this agree ment by one year. As a renewed Core Area In itiative begins to wind down, there are some critical problems outstanding in Winnipeg's inner city as well as in the older subur ban neighbourhoods.

These pro blems include Main Street, preservation of older suburban areas , the needs of our ur ban Native popula tion and infr astructure renewal. My JetJartment is developing an urban revitalization strategy to address these outstanding problems and provide a basis for future urban revitalization initiatives in Winnipeg. *

(2005) My de partment is also involved with the City of Winnipeg and the Headingley community to find a workable alternative to the community's request for a refere ndum on secession from the City of Winnipeg . The working committee has identified a st rate gy that may address the community's concerns as part of the City of Winnipeg . I am monitoring that strategy that was endorsed by City Coun cil and by the Hea dingley Taxpayers' Association. The Winnipeg Region Committee was established by my department in August of 19 89.

We want Winnipeg and its neighbours to understand each other's aspirations much better than they have in the past. We want them to work toget her, re solving re gional issues and concerns and implementing their solutions. I want to expr ess my appreciation to a very competent and prod uctive staff of 19 in my de partment, who have served this Government very we ll. I am satisfied that carefu l planning and budgeting continues to ensure that the Department of Urban Affairs achieves its mandate in an effi cient and effective manner. Mr. De puty Chairman, that concludes my opening remarks.

I would be plea sed to provide any additional information or an sw er qu estions concerning the resolutions of the Estimates. Mr. Dep uty Chairman : We thank the Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs for those comments . Does the critic from the official Opposition Party, the Honourable Member for Wols eley, have any opening comment? Ms. Jean Frle sen (Wolseley) : Urban Affairs is a small de partment, 19 staff, but it does have a considerable impact on 60 percent of the population of Mani to ba.

Par ticularly in its plannin g respo nsibilities and its planning capacities, I think it has the potential for a very large impact on urban issues in the Province of Manitoba. Through The Forks Renewal Corpo ration, the North Portage Dev elop ment, the Core Area Initiative and the pr oposed River bank Corpor ation , it also has considerable impact, a very dominant impact, on the development of downtown Winnipeg. So it is an important but certainly a small department. I think we see, on our side of the House, Winnipeg at a crossroads, and I think that is true for many people in Winnipeg.

I do not think that it is just people of our political persuasion. I think part of this is reflected in the tendency throughout the world, in a global sens e, that the world is moving to a series of city-state s. I think one of the big issues is whether Winnipeg, in fact, is going to be in this game at all, whether it is going to be in this league. In Canada, we have had increasing urbanization, in fact, probably much longer than we really recognize, since the 18 70s.

Since the 19 60-1 970s, I think what we have seen is Winnipeg consistently losing ground, particularly to Alberta, and even in the lasttwo or three years, to Alberta, I think, through internal migration and to Vancouver, particularly, as a result of immigration. The pace of that change in Vancouver and its impact upon Winnipeg , I think, is going to pick up in the next two or three years. Winnipeg is the key, I think, to the Province of Manitoba. If we lose the battle for economic development in Winnipeg, we are going to lose if for most of the province.

So I think the recognition of this by the City of Winnipeg, particularly in its development of a partnership through Winnipeg 2000, is a very important move. I think we all look for some very strong developme nts there and recognize the principles of that, that it is only by working together in partnerships that we at least have the opportunity to make some impact upon the fate of Winnipeg and hence of Manitoba. We have in Winnipeg, I think, a relatively stable population in terms of numbers. What we have is, everybody recognizes an increasing proportion of young people and particularly aboriginal people.

I think we have a real opportunity there. We tend to see it in terms of the economic demands that it makes upon the city and the province, but I think we

November 19 , 19 90 LEG ISlAT IVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 64 also have a real opportunity to make Winnipeg a centre for aboriginal government and for aboriginal peoples in the urban context. *

(2010) The problems I think are ones that many people will see, obviously core area. The Minister has talked about north Main Street, he has talked about the-1 do not think he used the term-but the so-called gray areas, the infrastructure of the older residential neighbourhoods. I think we all recognize that those are very much the problems that we have to face even in the next three or four years.

I see the Government in its stand in the election as addressing these the wrong way, through the development of megacorporation s, through a decrease in City Council and, it seems to me, through the absence of an aboriginal urban strategy. So I was glad to hear the Minister speak today about that. I would like to hear more about it later on. I think we would like to have some alternatives developed.

We would be particularly interested in civic participation and citizen participation in community-based development in Winnipeg, particularly interested in the development of Winnipeg as a centre for aboriginal peoples. I think one of the crucial things we have to look at in the next five years is the development of a downtown business plan for Winnipeg, a downtown development plan in conjunction with the city.

We have to see that the City of Winnipeg, I think in conjunction with the province, develop some long-term heritage planning rather than continuing to deal with heritage and urban infrastructure on an ad hoc basis. Most important of all I think we have to look for some new form of Core Area Ill. I know that there will be a Core Area Agreement, but some concerted effort by three levels of Government to the problems of Winnipeg's core and surrounding areas. Mr. Deputy Chairman: We thank the Honourable Member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) for those comments.

Does the critic from the Second Opposition Party, the Honourable Member for Crescentwood, have any opening comments? Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chair. I am pleased to participate in another go around of Urban Affairs Estimates. I remember fondly the debate last year with the same Minister. Many of the issues are the same. Although policy positions have changed on both sides of the House. We will be interested to have a debate with the Minister on issues such as the size of Winnipeg City Council, the

schedule that the Minister and his department anticipate for the implementation of the new policy, the extent to which the Minister intends to consult Winnipeggers about the form that new council will take, and also the relationship between the Department of Urban Affairs and the three corporations which have a tripartite relationship with the three levels of Government. I am referring to North Portage, the Core Area and Forks. Many questions have arisen over the past short while about the accountability of those corporations to the Legislature.

We know that the chief executive officer and members of the board of North Portage Development Corporation and Forks Renewal Corporation regularly appear in front of Winnipeg City Council or EPC. They have never appeared in front of a committee of this Legislature. I understand that is about to change, if so we welcome that. We will want to know from the Minister just how far along he is in assuring that will occur. The whole issue of grants to the City of Winnipeg is very important, because Winnipeg dominates Manitoba with more than 60 percent of the province's population.

That cannot be said of any other city in Canada in relationship to its provincial Government or the demographics of a province, which puts Winnipeg and its relationship with the Province of Manitoba unique. We will want to know how the Minister justifies the current level of grant assistance to the City of Winnipeg, how that compares with cities of comparable size, whether or not there has been a transfer of responsibility from the province to the taxpayers in the City of Winnipeg as a result of a miniscule increase in grants this year from last.

We will want to talk with the Minister about some important development issues. One that comes to mind is rapid transit for Winnipeg, if the department has any plans to develop the idea of the south-west transit corridor, if negotiations have begun with the Government of Canada and the City of Winnipeg, and if so where the Minister expects to take them. •

(2015) The Minister talks about the promenade from the Legislative Building to The Forks. We are very

14 65 LE GISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA November 19 , 19 90 interested in Riverbank Development, and there is money in the Estimates this year. We will want to know how the Minister intends to spend that money and what his long-range plan is. The Urban Native Strategy is absolutely vital. Anyone who reads the regular reports from the Social Planning Council of Winnipeg will know that between the years 1981 and 1986 the population of Winnipeg grew by 5.3 percent, the Native population by more than 70 percent in the same five-year period. This is a challenge for Governments at all levels.

This particular Government has been making promises to lead us towards an Urban Native Strategy now for a number of years. We see no evidence of it. lt still remains an unfulfilled promise, and we will want to question the Minister closely on the Urban Native Strategy. I will not take any more time of the committee in my opening remarks, Mr. Deputy Chairman, but I am certainly anticipating and looking forward to a fulsome discussion with the Minister through the Estimates. Mr. Deputy Chairman : I would like to thank the Honourable Member for Crescentwood (Mr. Carr) for those remarks.

Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of a department. Accordingly, we shall defer the consideration of this item and now proceed with consideration of the next line. At this time, we invite the Minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the Minister introduce his staff members present. Mr. Duchar me : First of all, my staff is Jim Beaulieu, my Deputy Minister; Marilyn Walder, my manager, Urban Revi talization; and Vern De Pape is manager, Administration and Grants. Mr. De puty Chairm an: Item 1.(

b) Executive Support:

(1) Salaries $220, 1 00.00. Ms. Frles en: I will just start out with asking about the $7,000 differential there in the managerial salary. Mr. Ducharme: That is your merit increases, MGEA. Actually, the Executive Support staff, I think it was about $16,400.00. Ms. Frlesen: I would like to ask the Minister about the Urban Affairs Committee of Cabinet. Could he give me an indication of how often that meets and what kind of discussions it has had this year, what topics? Mr.

Ducharme : First of all, when I became Urban Affairs Minister, I was not-1 know from a previous experience with the City of Winnipeg, when I was on the City of Winnipeg, I know with the previous administration we did not have too much luck in having a plan

schedule set aside each and every year, so one of my main purposes was to plan a schedule. We meet approximately four to five times a year, and we were hosted by the city on one. We alternate the host period. We set the agenda for every second meeting. Since we are meeting in December, the city will be hosting, and they set the agenda. In ours, to give you an example, we will be talking now in regard to their budgetary process, because remember they have to know by January or the middle of February where they are going for their year ending in March.

Mainly, we will be doing the monetary discussions in regard to the urban capital grants that, as I have mentioned, expire in 1990. We will be talking generally about what their costs are doing, what they are doing and what they expect will be happening at City Hall when they go to meet in January and do the budget in February. Generally, we discuss along with Ministers. What we do is, we make sure, if we are discussing items on the agenda, the Ministers are invited that are pertaining to those. On libraries, or say, on the environment, or on health issues, we will invite the different Ministers. Ms.

Frlesen : Actually, you were talking there about the City of Winnipeg official delegation and the Urban Affairs Committee. I was wondering particularly about the Urban Affairs Committee of Cabinet. •

(2020) Mr. Ducharme: What we do with the Urban Affairs Committee of Cabinet, if I have some legislation that I feel is ready to be drafted and to go through to Cabinet, I will run it through the Urban Affairs Committee in Cabinet first because, as you know, we have people on there who have sat in City Hall, which is probably a benefit now because they usually understand the aspects of that. As a matter of fact, I have included my Urban Affairs Committee of Cabinet to invite all now urban Members, because as you know we have a very, very new cast of urban people who certainly-they

November 19 , 19 90 LEG ISlA TIV E ASSEMB L V OF MAN ITOBA 14 66 have only attended one Urban Affairs Committee Cabinet and I will tell you they were certainly a very enlightening group. They put their discussions forward. To give you an example on that one, we discussed some legislation that we will be looking at for the next Session in regard to planning, and this type of thing. Ms. Frlesen : That is very much on an as-need basis then rather than a scheduled series of planning meeting. Mr. Ducharme: Generally we meet once a month. Ms. Frlesen : I am interested in your support staff.

Could you tell me who your E.A. and special assistants are, and what their respective roles are? Mr. Ducharme : My special assistant is Wendy Wolynec. Ms. Frles en : Pardon. Mr. Duchar me: Wendy Wolynec. Wendy has been with me for two and a half years. -(int erjection)- Well, she wants to know what their workings are. lt is on the organization chart. I have included both of them on the organization chart on the left. Wendy works with Urban Affairs but probably at this time spends more time on housing issues because of my previous background in Urban Affairs. My Urban Affairs would be working with Frank Clark.

Frank is my E.A. Frank has been with me for approximately a year and a half. He substituted Wendy when Wendy was E.A., and she moved up to my special assistant. Frank would probably be more along with keeping in light of urban affairs and working in my constituency. He would be my main constituency person, and Wendy would be my office person here. Mr. Carr: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I guess this is as good a place as any to talk about legislative initiatives. The Minister's Party, during the election campaign, promised to reduce the size of City Council. Would the Minister ple ase outline his Government's

schedule of implementing that campaign promise and just the nature of public consultation that he anticipates before the Act is introduced into the Legislature, and to give us as much detail as he is in a position to at this time? Mr. Ducharme: As you can probably appreciate, we got into the Session very quickly. We were told not to probably introduce any legislation this time unless it was absolutely necessary. Especially with Urban Affairs, I have kept that to a minimum. I am only going to introduce one small piece of legislation, or I hope I am intro ducing it, and that is the Ombudsman.

If the other two Parties will agree that I can introduce the Ombudsman, and agree to share the provincial Ombudsman, because now they must have the Ombudsman capabilities of their own. What I will be doing is, right after we are out of the Session, I will be setting up-and I have started to set up the process to have my staff look at a process for setting up a consultation.

What I felt is, we would consult and have public hearings during the '91 process and have it ready for the '91 Session so that we can deal with it so that the province remembers, and probably by the time we get to the summer they will be only one year away from a civic election so I would like them to know for the fall election and a long time before that.

Remember, after I go through my consultation process, whatever sizes you do, then you would probably have to again bring in the boundaries people to look at the boundaries if there are numbers established during that first process, because I felt that the boundaries people would meet and establish the boundaries based on numbers. I am talking about population numbers once the numbers have been set and after we have passed legislation in the next Session. Mr.

Carr: Does that mean that the Minister intends to introduce the legislation at the next Session of the Legislature after a round of public consultation, which means that he would be beginning to consult the publio-when?-in January, in February of 1991? •

(2025) Mr. Duchar me: The intention is either do it then or make sure I introduce-like I would have my hearings, or introduce my legislation in the spring of '92. I still have a little bit of room to move, that councillors would know where they are running six months hence. Mr. Carr: Now I am not sure. Does the Minister intend to introduce the legislation in the spring of '91 or the spring of '92? Mr. Ducharme : I would prefer to do it in '91 depending on the public hearings that I would have to have in the consultation process. I want to make sure there is lots of room for the consultation process. I do not know what the House Leaders have done in regard to when we are coming back.

14 67 LEG ISLATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITO BA November 19 , 19 90 That would depend on when we are coming back, because I would like to have that consultation process proceed and have good public hearings on a very contentious issue. Mr. Carr: Does the Minister intend to distribute a discussion paper in advance of the public hearings that will outline the Government's position in some detail so that when the hearings do arrive the public will have some sense of where the Government is going? Mr. Ducha rme : My staff has not got to that procedure yet in regard to our preparing.

I know I will be meeting-that would be something that we would again discuss with the Urban Affairs Committee of Cabinet and along with the colleRgues in the city to see which process we will use for the early months of '91. Mr. Carr: During the election campaign, the Minister either mused aloud, or the Premier actually included in a campaign announcement, that the wards would be of a pie-shaped nature. The Minister can correct me if I am wrong. I believe that was part of the campaign promise.

Is it the intent ion of the Government to fulfill that promise, or does he intend to offer the people, for their comment, a series of options which may include the pie-shaped wards. Mr. Ducharme : If we are going to have a full consultation, then I do not think the Government would go ahead right now or at any time and say that this is what they definitely want. I think the option level is what they would need. You know, if you are going to the public, you want to go to them with several options, or I do not think there is anything accomplished.

I think, as open as you are, you want to hear full process, you want to hear the pros and cons of community committees, you want to hear the pros and cons of-you are going to hear people give the results of the larger type of wards. I know it came up just recently when we were doing the planning. We have to make sure that any plannin g legi slation I am doing for the spring session, because as you know, I did furnish the Member with a

schedule saying that I am going in it as a varied

part 20, which is a large part of the Act. I will be introducing that in the spring Session. ltwill probably take a month and a half to two months. lt is going to be about a 40-page document replacing about an 80-page part of the City of Winnipeg Act. We have to make sure it would work both for and against no matter what type of size and city council you put in. There is no use me bringing in legislation and finding out that all of a sudden the people in the area are somewhere or other, something happens to the numbers.

I am saying that numbers, the shape, everything, the planning will be able to work with any of these configurations that you put in. Ms. Frle sen I was wondering if I could pick up on the City Council issue, the size of City Council. Have your research staff done any research on the implications of the impact of pie-shaped lots? Mr. Ducharme: No, they have not. Ms. Frle sen : Is it the intention of the Minister, in proposing the possible diminution of change in size of City Council, to do away with community committees? Mr. Ducharme : They are in the process. You can still have community committees.

That has not been discussed. I think that is the type of thing that will come up at your hearings when you are dealing with the numbers. Remember, you have some people that feel very, very strong feelings about things that should be looked after at community committees, and you have people that believe that community clubs and libraries and all these that they are used to for the last-not just the last 15 years, they have been used to them at the old council days when you had 13 separate councils, everything was handled through the local councillors.

So I think those people will come forward because when the previous administration brought in The City of Winnipeg Act and had 50 councillors, there was quite an uproar because people felt that they were going to be left without that identification. As a matter of fact, a lot of people were involved in that process. I think the full public hearing process is very important. *

(2030) Ms. Frlesen : Has the Minister discussed formally or informally with the current members of City Council this proposed change in the size of City Council? What kind of response are you getting? Mr. Ducharme : On an informal basis I have discussed it. The same as when I talked about reduction to 23, I talked on an informal basis with different councillors that you do have a dialogue with, discussed it briefly with the mayor and I discussed it briefly with some of the Members. I would say, if you want to know what the opinion is of the ones that I talked to, they probably felt

November 19 , 19 90 LEG ISLA TIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 14 68 stronger about reducing from 29 to 23 than they do from 23 to whatever. I am quite surprised that is happening; however, I think that is something that will come up. Each councillor will have the right to go to these hearings and make his point heard. The mayor will also have his opinion. I am sure they will have their ammunition as to why they believe it should be reduced or why they think it should be at 29. Mr. Carr: Just one more question this section, Mr. Deputy Chairman.

There were a number of very important amendments to The City of Winnipeg Act last year. l just wonder if the Minister can let us know how he thinks those amendments have worked in the operations of City Council? He has had some time to monitor and review the new process. Is he satisfied? Did we do good work last Session? Mr. Ducharme: If you are asking about the responsibility that we gave the mayor and what we gave the chairman, I think that the process of appointing your chairman-! think that has worked very well.

I think what it has done is made the mayor more accountable because he has selected the majority of his EPC. To see whether it is going to work in general, because you have to remember that you did have quite a change in what we know as a large membership in City Council, so we had a lot of new members elected in the past election. I am still convinced it is the way to go. I feel it is a better system than was in place before. I think now thatthe mayor is the EPC chairman, that has worked out much better.

If the mayor is not successful I think it will point that it is his mandate more so than what was before, and I think even if we have accomplished that so far until the system gets in place, then we have accomplished a lot. Mr . Deputy Chairman : Item 1.(

b) Executiv e Support:

(1) Salarie s-- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $51 ,500-pass. (

c) Administrative and Financial Services:

(1) Salaries $1 68,000.00. Ms. Frle sen : Mr. Deputy Chairman, I wanted to ask about affirmative action here in the department, first of all. What are the targets and how close are you to meeting them? Mr. Ducharme: To the Member for Wolseley, as you have to appreciate, staff is only 19. However, if you look across the chart, four of the five are women just below the Deputy Minister. That includes--and one is on temporary leave and that is Claudette Toupin. Ms.

Frles en : I realize that it is difficult in a small department, and I wondered what the Civil Service had offered you as targets in fact, not specifically in the employment of women, but the employment of aborig inal people and visible minoriti es and handicapped. Mr. Ducharme: I mentioned that we--1 will get you some numbers, but we have not been given any specific targets. I believe that we are probably at three of the four criteria that we do accomplish those. I think I know for sure that in our department-and I am just looking around-we have two visible minorities that I know of that are in our department.

Ms. Frle sen : Is there some particular reason why you have not been assigned a target? Are there other departments in that situation? Mr. Ducharme: I guess it is because we are better than most. I am just aware of what is in Urban Affairs. I know that in Housing we have targets, and I can get you those and we have accomplished the ones in Housing, so I am just saying that-1 guess because of the size of the staff. Ms. Frlesen : I wanted to pursue the policy review and development of urban grants. Could you give me an indication of what kind of policy review has taken place this year? Mr.

Ducharme: Maybe you could be more-are you saying, what stage are we at right now? Ms. Frlesen : I am looking at the Activity Id entification that says policy review and development in urban grants and administration. I am wondering what kind of continuing policy review you undertake. Are you evaluating, monitoring? Is there long-term policy development, or is it a combination of all three? Mr. Ducharme: I guess the best way to put it is that we are constantly reviewing all the grants. We are in a very major step right now because we are looking at the renewal of the $90 million six-year agreement.

The reason why we are looking at that is because we find it very successful, because then the city can receive their commitment and we will pay as we are billed. If they commit a project and it takes three years, that stays in that sum of money. You are not coming every year and working on it hat in hand and going through their capital. They submit

14 69 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 19 , 19 90 every year, but they also know that they can only submit up to that 90 million over that six-year period. Ms. Frlesen : I guess we have a chance later on to look at some of the details of that, but I wanted to know now about the policy review. lt sounds as though you are interested in renewing that kind of five year capital grants program. Do you have any different criteria that you are evaluating or looking to develop for another type of agreement? Mr.

Ducharrne: What we have looked at-it is actually a six-year agreement presently now, but we do look at their five-year capital. We know what is in their five-year capital to see what they can deliver in that five-year period. Where we are at now is the administration does negotiate between th� two administrations to find out where they are at and on what they are capable of doing, say for next year, what they are capable of doing the second year. What we are down to now, I think, is not so much the capital-we can always find projects. They seem to come quite freely.

What we are negotiating now, we are right down to whether there will be an increase in that 90 million. That is where we are at now. Ms. Frlesen : Would you give me some kind of indication of what the provincial priorities are going to be over the next six years in that area? Mr. Duch arme: If you look at what the provincial priorities have been in the last agreement-! think it is around 7 percent that we asked for, if any, or maybe not even that, that we asked. As a matter of fact, it would not be seven, it would be closer to $3 million of what we said we would like this in your grants for you to get to match.

We have stayed actually pretty close to what the city has requested. In other words, the city is a selection of individuals that have been elected the same as we have at the Legislature. They probably feel that they have their priorities of what they want to see. We have our priorities. I can give you a couple of examples. We were very, very-we would like to see something done more with the riverbanks. We have spent I thihk the last year convincing them that we would like them to participate. They have not committed themselves. We have committed 500,000 of that 90 million.

I think the only thing I got out of the-as Minister, our Government got ou t of that $90 million-remember we came in when most of the money was allocated-would be the termites that we had in St. Boni face. We asked them to participate, I think the Member remembers, the Member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) came forward and we negotiated that for the people on Youville in St. Boniface. There was a previous -(interje ction)- yes, there was a previous one, I guess it was the help of this Government that he was elected because we got rid of the termites.

We did not get rid of them, but we answered his question on termites. The other was the noise barrier that was put forward by the previous admini stration on Lagimodiere that was requested. Ours was the 500,000 Riverfront Corporation, and that is all that was really asked of the city. I am not saying that on the new agreement we will not ask for something, but I am saying right now we are negotiating the amount, and then I would say after that that we should get more into-if there are some projects that we would like to participate in. Ms. Frle sen : That is really what I am trying to get at, Mr. Deputy Chairman.

If this is the area where the policy review takes place, what kind of priorities other than riverbank development would you have for grants to the City of Winnipeg over the next six years, capital grants? Mr. Duchar me: If you are looking at global, I would like to maybe, now that we are involved in the transit problems that we have, I would really like to see a-1 am only saying that they are going through the studies now, and they just had some information put forward at the Convention Centre the other day in regard to the LRT comparable to the busways.

I am still not convinced that they have looked at all the alternatives and that they have looked at everything in regard to transportation. I think that transportation is probably going to be a very, very important key to the City of Winnipeg in the next few years to come. I, as Minister, would like to see maybe some type of, call it a transportation commission or something to look at transportation and not do it in ad hoc. *

(2040) I know our Government is concerned about the cost of an LRT. However we want to make sure that if you do go to a bus corridor down the road that it is adaptable to the LRT because it is going to be very important that these buses will only have a 20-year life span. You are going to have to go into other means of transportation, and if you look

November 19 , 19 90 LE GISLA TIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 14 70 throughout North America, most of them are keying in on the LRT, other than say Ottawa who has gone the bus route. Ms. Frlesen : So riverbanks and transit, what about community revitalization which has been an earlier priority. Mr. Ducharme: Yes, we have worked on three. We have been working continually on that and, as a matter of fact, we are looking at another area on revitalization.

Revitalization, as the Member is probably aware, has probably been one of the most successful of all the programs, because you do have people involved quite extensively in it. I will give you some numbers of what we did in Weston. We have Weston, we have Spence-M emorial, ws have Burrows-Shaughnessy, and the Transcona Centre is looking, and Fort Rouge area. lt is the Man itoba-Winnipeg Community Revitalization Project. lt is one that combines these particular areas. Ms.

Frles en: So that Riverbanks Transit Community Revitalization, these essentially then are the same priorities that you have had over the past six years. Is there any alteration or addition? Mro Duchar me: Not in the last six years. Riverfront Corporation was put in by this Minister and this Government, and also the transportation is just starting to be studied now, that it has been going on for the last couple of years.

Other than that, we will probably be looking at participating in-you mentioned earlier in your remarks that will take up quite a bit of time-setting up whatever you call the third agreement, if there is one. I think that will take a lot of time. I think we will have priorities under that agreement, because remember we did not participate in most of the large capital projects that were under the second Core. l imagine that will take quite a bit of time -(inaudible)- Ms.

Frlesen : Maybe we should all agree that we are going to call it Core Area Ill for the purposes of tonight, not necessarily recognizing that it is a Core Area Ill. Mr. Carr: I am interested in the direction that the Government is taking on grants to the City of Winnipeg. On page 14, we have three of them which are outlined. An Unconditional Current Programs Grant, an Urban Transit Grant and a General Support Grant, and it begs the obvious question and that is, what is this Minister's view on attaching strings on grant money from the province to the city?

There are funds here which obviously must be used for a particular purpose, an example: the Transit Grant must be used for that purpose, the Unconditional Grants not so. Where is the Minister wanting to move his Government? Do you want more or fewer strings in future years? Mr. Deputy Chairman : If I may, I am going to stop you for a second. Are we going to start hopping all over? lt is the next item. Should we pass (

c) Administrative and Financial Services:

(1) Salaries $168, 000 -pa ss;

(2) Other Expenditu res $29,000-pass. 2. Financial Assistance to the City of Winnipeg (

a) Unconditional Cu rrent Programs Grant $20,500,000.00. Mr. Carr: The question has been put, Mr. Deputy Chairman. Mr. Ducharme: I guess this is part of the process of negotiating, and I think you probably need, what I would say a balance between both the Unconditional and Conditional. I think that is something that-there has to be a balance for it. There has been no policy by our Government to put any strings. I know when I was on council I did not like someone coming to us, saying that we will give your transit operating grant if you do not raise the price of fares.

I did not like if they were coming forward and saying, we will agree to this capital as long as you substitute another capital. I think to just say that in any certain way-if I do have a priority, I think it would be up to myself or up to our Government to go to the City and say, here is one of our priorities, the same way as I have been trying to do with the Riverfront Corporation. We feel that-1 guess one that we have been negotiating on was Highway 75. We had X number of dollars put forward from Highways and highways belonging to inside the city limits.

Yet our Highways Department came forward with approximately $9 million in capital, and we said, would you put this up in your priority list if you will agree to the $90 million? That is what I say. Through negotiations I think that is how you probably sell your requests. Mr. Carr: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I am interested in how the department and the Minister determine what an appropriate transfer is to the City of Winnipeg. I would like to know, to begin, what percentage of the Winnipeg budget is comprised of a provincial grant? Mr. Duchar me: Seventeen percent of current and

14 71 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA November 19 , 19 90 8 percent of capital. Remember this does not include anything going into the Core Area Program. I am just saying that basically it is 17 percent of the current, 8 percent of capital. Mr. Carr: I can imagine that when the Minister was a member of City Council, he probably argued for lots more.

There is an old expression in politics that "Where you stand depends on where you sit." When the Minister was sitting in City Council, no doubt he was thumping the table for more from the province, and now that he is Minister of Urban Affairs, he probably thinks the grants are just fine. I would be interested in knowing how 17 percent compares with other cities across the country. I am not expecting that the Minister would have that information at his fingertips, but if he happens to know, I am sure the committee would appreciate the Minister passing that along.

If he does not know, I wonder if he would be so kind as to find out. Mr. Ducharme: I guess the Member is fortunate he did not have to sit in those positions as this Minister had to. I must say that it is the same as if you are a negotiator on any basis. You are going to always be going for what you feel. As a city councillor, I will come to the province and negotiate and, as you say, thump the table, but once I have left the table then it is a new ball game. Same as when I have left now and joined another table, I will thump the table at them also.

We do have some figures, but I think I could probably give you better if I outlined, because the figures have been used and then there has been letters of apology from the Cherniack Commission, for instance, the letters are used when they are going over the report. There were some figures used that the City of Winnipeg was a lot less on provincial grants than say, Edmonton, Calgary. We have figures to back others, and I could supply you with those figures. I will get you those. Mr. Carr: I am interested in the issue of transportation in the City of Winnipeg.

There has been a fair bit of debate about that in recent days. What is the status of negotiation over the southwest transit corridor? Has the Government made any ·(interjection)- Ms. Frlesen : A point of order, Mr. Deputy Chairman. I think we are still on Uncondi tional Grant. -(interjection)- ! would prefer to go through each one individually at this point. I am open for discussion, but I would certainly like us to agree upon it before we do it. Mr. Carr: lt does not matter to me. Mr. De puty Chairman : Item by item? We are dealing with Unconditional Current Grants. Ms.

Frlesen : I realize it is an Unconditional Grant but is there any kind of audit, monitoring procedure or value audit on this money? Mr. Ducharme : On the $20,500,000, they use it for whatever-not by us-they will have now their own audit system. I do not know how we can trace it back because they can use it forever, for whatever they want. They can take 20 items and use it for 20, 30 items. We do not specify what they use it on. Ms. Frl esen: There would be no way from a provincial perspective of actually tracing this money at all? Mr . Ducha rme: I am sure they used our $20,500,000.00.

I would claim they did anyway. lt was not part of the surplus that they had over there. Mr. Daryl Re ld (Transcona) : I have a few questions, but they will be on the Urban Transit, if we are on that portion. Mr. Deputy Chairman : Not yet. We will pass the other one first. Item 2.(

a) Unconditional Current Programs Grant $20,500,000-pass; (

b) Urban Transit Operating Grant $17,726,500.00. *

(2050) Ms. Frles en: This is a grant that finances the deficit, is there a cap on this now, or are you contemplating a cap? Mr. Duchar me: There is a cap that is negotiated at the start of the year, and they will finance up to a certain maximum of 50 percent, a certain maximum figure and that will be it. Ms. Frle sen : The fare structure, to maintain a reasonable fare structure, what is the Minister's perspective on that? What is a reasonable fare structure? Mr. Ducharme: I guess fare structure would be what you are offering the public.

For instance, if you want to use a fare structure in Calgary-what is it, $1.1 0? There they have a light rail in Calgary and Edmonton, where here, I would say there is no comparison between the two services. Ms. Frle sen: One anticipates that the City of Winnipeg is looking at fare increases this year in its

November 19 , 19 90 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 14 72 urban transit. I am wondering, given that prospect, what the Minister considers is a reasonable fare structure. Mr. Ducharme: I have always agreed to, or always supported the City of Winnipeg's policies, that they recover 50 percent from the fare boxes. That has always been-and that is what they try to achieve. When I was in City Hall I approved that, and I would still say that is a pretty fair way to judge the fares. Ms.

Frles en: You would be looking at it from an overall budgetary perspective rather than from the perspective, say, of distance use or time use, that is, charging more as Ottawa does, for example, in rush hours. Mr. Duchar me: Those used to be looked at, but then of course you could do that with-if you looked at distances and your time elements, you would be looking at whether seniors should ride four to six, or whether they should ride seven to nine. You would look at someone who is way out at the other end of the city paying more. Then you would have to start looking at other services that they are away from.

They might not have the libraries, where downtown you have libraries closer. You might be looking at community clubs not as close. I think that transportation should be based on what it is at the full city level. Ms. Frlesen : Other jurisdictions do this, and I wanted to make sure that I understood the Minister, that he is looking at one fare for the whole City of Winnipeg. Mr. Ducharme: I have always supported the one fare for all the City of Winnipeg, and I am just saying that personally. That is the way I have been. I do not see the city moving away from that.

Even if they go into a bus route, as you are talking about or what they are talking about, I do not think you will see any drastic changes in the fare structure. Ms. Frlesen : My colleague from Transcona (Mr. Reid) is going to, I believe, ask about the overall Urban Transit. I am interested in the encouragement or lack of encouragement you might be giving to the construction of bicycle paths as a means of transport, rather than as a means of recreation. Mr. Ducharme: I just received some information from an individual. In the last few days I wrote him back. I have sent it on to the City of Winnipeg.

I guess I would say that I have-if someone would go to my office, they would think I have a conflict of interest. They will see my bike, but I have only used it back and forth twice. I think there has been consideration years ago to use along the hydro lines, and ways of providing transportation, but our staff has not made any suggestions to the City of Winnipeg on bike rights-of-way. Ms. Frles en: I think from a planning perspective, it is the kind of thing that will be within the purview of this department. ls there some reason why you have not looked beyond buses and light wheel transport? Mr.

Ducharme: If you mean by planning, remember that we look at the overall plan, and what they do specifically in that plan. I do not know if anybody came up when they did the transportation at the Convention Centre, I do not know, I have not seen the results. Who made presentations, whether anybody made any presentations on the bicycling path. I do pick up the occasional paper fr om somewhere else. I know I looked the other day, and I think the one that has provided the most bicycle paths is Seattle, and then there was another one in California. I have never actually looked at what they are providing. Mr.

Carr: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairman, I would like to get back to the subject of the southwest transit corridor. Could the Minister just bring us up to date? Mr. Ducharme: In regard to negotiations? Mr. Carr: Yes. Mr. Ducharme: We have not been involved in any negotiations, other than brief discussions with the federal Member. I have talked to one federal Member. The discussions I have had with the City of Winnipeg, of course, is that I did tour with Mr. Borland and a couple of councillors when we went to Ottawa. I spent the day in Ottawa looking at the bus route.

I did go to Pittsburgh, and I looked at the combination along with Councillor Lore ne and Mr. Borland because they do have probably the best combination in that particular city; however, in regard to monies or whether the province would commit, the province had made no commitment. The federal Government has made no commitment. I still feel it is unfortunate that the monies in the transportation were lost that were offered by the federal Government a few years ago. Mr. Carr: Well, the Minister is travelling around to other cities to examine the use of alternate sources of transportation, but what is his plan?

What is his

14 73 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA November 19 , 19 90 Government's position? Where does he want to take whatever vision he may have, and how does he intend to implement it? Mr. Ducha rme : I mentioned earlier, I had my priorities. I suggested that a form of commission to study into the possibility of what is the best transportation. I know what the best is; however, the best is the LRT system, but we would have to base on what we can afford, and we would have to base on what the reaction is with the City of Winnipeg. We also would have to look at what the federal people would bring to the table.

I do not think you are going to go into a transit system with out some help from the federal Government. Remember in Ottawa for the bus transportation, because I was wondering how they are getting their bus rights-of-way, and I understand that they say it is mostly provincial grants. But then they do not mention in his presentation, that I found out by visiting there, that they have had a lot of subdivision agreements where they have insisted on the subdivision agreements along the way providing the busways.

So they have provided the busways, and they pay for a lot of the busways as they do subdivision agreements. So it is something that you do not look into just by looking at the southwest corridor. If there was a plan to go into corridors, you would have to look and see on subdivision agreements and planning that could be an additional cost provided in those agreement s. Mr. Carr: Could the Minister tell us more about this commission? What will its terms of reference be? When does he intend to announce it, and when will it report its findings? Mr.

Duchar me: I imagine some of the priorities that we would have to look at is not just bus transportation and not just passenger transportation as we see it in transit; we would have to look at what you are doing with the roadways. We would have to look at it along with the City of Winnipeg. We would probably have to look at what the Department of Highways is doing at different areas where they come into the city.

I think that the commission would probably go out and review and look at the possibilities before we started addressing ourselves to spending $60 million to $70 million on one corridor, if that is not what you are going to do in other parts of the city. lt is very important that you look at what you are going to do for the whole city.

I guess what you would look at is, not that it was the greatest transportation, but you look at the WA T Study that was done in the '70s. lt did have a transportation and road system that was set in place and it was not adopted by the city, but it did provide some information that we are now using. lt is probably the one that suggested an inner beltway and people said, Oh, nol We do not want an inner beltway. If you take a look at what is happening around the city, you are now getting an inner beltway that nobody wanted. I mean you take a look at Bishop Grandin. You take a look at Waverley.

You take a look at the Charleswood bridge if it comes. You look at the Kildonan. All of this was mostly looked at in the WAT Study that no one wanted. I am sure that when they went to look and do this transportation, they probably looked at that study, and that is probably a lot of the parts they used. So I am saying that is the type of thing I would like to see. Mr. Carr: Can the Minister tell us when the commission will be formulated and just what kind of people he is expecting to appoint? Mr. Ducharme : No.

The reason why I say that is because, if you look at the city budgets, they are not looking into doing the transportation corridor until I think it is '94-95 so we still have some time to sit down and figure out who would be on that commission. I would certainly consult with the mayor and with the Department of Highways as to who would be the logical people to sit on it. Mr. Rel d: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, just to pick up on the point of the comm ission, so you say the provincial Government at this time is unaware or does know for sure whether or not you are going to have some input into who is going to sit on that commission to study the Rapid Transit for the City of Winnipeg. Mr. Duchar me : That is not what I said. I said I do not know who we would have on that commission. Mr. Rel d: Do you anticipate having someone sit on that commission? Mr. Ducharme : Definitely, it would have to be a co-operation between the City of Winnipeg and the province. *

(2100) Mr. Rel d: There are a couple of other areas that are listed under subappropriation and one of them talks

November 19 , 19 90 LEG ISLA TIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 74 about Handi-Transit. Could you give me a bit of background on that, please? Mr. Duchar me: The best stats I have are the ones that were used-1 just finished asking for up-to-date figures from the City of Winnipeg and they said the latest they have is January of '90. If you want some background on it, when the Handi-Transit was started, it was supported by the provincial Government and the city and there was a program being done, what we would call in-what do they call it, the southwest?

The Fort Rouge area was being funded at the same time and the previous admin istration withdrew their funding on that particular program. Along with the city they felt it was not offering the service to the total city area. We agreed to fund the Handi-Transit and we funded the extended Handi-Tra nsit. As a matter of fact, all I know from the figures I had in January earlier, the membership has been increasing and it has now been extended to cover anyone who cannot ride the reg ular transit.

I know by the membership it is moving quite extensively and the last numbers I had is that 75 percent of the people using it were seniors. lt is now available to everybody in the City of Winni peg and not just in the south, the transit system that was in place atthe time we came into office. Mr. Re ld: lt had been brought to my attention earlier this year by senior members of the community in which I live and which I represent, that they had some concerns about the Handi-Transit system in the area of its availability, in a time factor for the utilization by the people that need that type of service.

Also there are some cases there where the Handi- Transit was unable to provide service for these people on the return route. Mr. Ducharme: There were always problems with return routes and appointments to get onto the Handi-Transit, but we did bring in, along with the City of Winnipeg, the brokerage system using the taxis when it became very, very busy. That has apparently helped tremendously. I will provide all the figures and the stats on how popular the Handi-Transit has become. I can provide them to the Member, when I receive them from the City of Winnipeg. Mr. Re ld : I have no doubt that it is popular.

I think it probably would be good if the people who utilize the service knew that the Hand i- Transit was not available on the return trip, they knew that there was an alternative available to them. I do not recall, although maybe you could bring me up to date on this, whether or not you have done any advertising in that area to make the seniors in this case, the large number of them that use that service, aware that the alternative form of transportation is available for them. Mr. Duchar me: I will give you some figures. If you book two days in advance, success rate has been close to 100 percent for use.

I will give you some other figures. There is a folder that is put out throughout the city, and also to go back to the numbers-in 1988 the Handi- Transit ridership was 121,17 4, that includes the transit and the Unicity that they were using. In 1989 it was 206,494 and then what we have so far estimated, they figure with the numbers that they have been using the figure will climb to 272,768 ridership and most of that is in the transit and Handi-Transit system that has been operating. I am talking about the-no, it is not in the regular transit system.

You can see through the last couple of years how it has been so popular. If the Member could get me numbers or specific cases, the city has been very co-operative if they have problems with an area that they are not servicing properly. My intention is that they do have an operations advisory committee members who are Handi- Transit users that sit on an advisory board and tell them the pros and cons of what is happening.

If they have problems in certain areas they are addressed, so if the Member -(interjecti on) ! can provide you with a current list of the members that sit on there and I can also ask if you have anybody who wants to volunteer to sit on it, there is also a citizen member. There is a phone number of a citizen member on that, so there are means to get involved in the Handi- Transit. Mr. Re ld: I would appreciate that list and the opportunity to have-is that an up-to-date list? Mr.

Duchar me: I will get you a book and in the book it has a phone number that says: phone this number we will give you the complete list; phone this number if you want to be a volunteer. So there are two numbers and they will give you the list. We will phone for the list for you and get you the list. Mr. Dep uty Chairman : The questions are all answered--no. Mr. Rel d: I thank the Minister for this information. I think although volunteers are usually difficult to

14 75 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 19 , 19 90 come by we should be able to find some in this case to sit on that board. (Mr. Eric Stefanson, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) If I might go back to the LRT, Mr. Acting Chairman. The Minister stated that he favoured the LRT system over other methods of transit in the urban centres. He said he had viewed some in Pittsburgh and California. I believe he had mentioned those areas where he had viewed rapid transit systems.

Could you give us some ideas on why you favour that system over maybe the electric trolley system or the diesel bus, because I know that these areas were discussed during the rapid transit hearings at the Convention Centre this past week? Mr. Ducharme: First of all let us get it straight. If 1 had unlimited funds I would buy the LRT. The LRT is just-most people like to ride on a train. If you want to look at different services -(laughter)- they do, they like to ride on a train. If you take a look there are different types of LRT systems also.

If you want to look at LRT systems and I would take-they had the Member in from Calgary. To tell you the truth, Calgary would probably be the last type of LRT system that I would want to put in the City of Winnipeg. lf you take a look at it running down the trail, shooting along, unfriendly as can be, and high steps separating it from the merchants and from the people using it. You can get into systems in Pittsburgh and Dusseldorf, Germany has one that they have just- -( interjection)- yes, they have. They have a system there.

They have a system in Dusseldorf that is very, very adequate, because it almost combines the friendliness and it combines the area where it joins right in with every other transit, people walking by it. They are using it like a friendly system. About the only thing they do not do-they even have bicycles going around it. They do not grab on to the trains with their bikes, but they have bikes that join in with the tracks. The one in Calgary, for instance, is not what I would consider a great system. I know the individual was here for the convention and he was the host in Calgary for a day.

I did not consider their system as good as the one in Pittsburgh or the one in Dusseldorf. Mr. Rel d: Mr. Acting Chairman, if the province was to participate on the committee or the commission studying the rapid transit proposal for the City of Winnipeg, would you insist that the provincial representation look at the environmental aspects as well and take those into consideration for the implementation of a new system for the city? Mr. Duchar me: Definitely, and I will also look at the availability of what is going to happen with our fuel in the next few years.

That will also have to be another consideration. • (21 10 ) I think the environment, not only with the pollution of what we know as our diesel buses, but if you take a look at even the noise, the LRTs are so quiet that they have to ring bells when they get to crossings because people do not know they are around. I think that is a consideration, definitely.

That would be a major-1 mean if they were close that would be a way of really answering the question of whether the environment issue is sufficient enough to sway the minds of the people who are going to make that decision, but it definitely has to be a factor and a very important factor. Mr. Re ld: Mr. Acting Chairman, could the Minister tell us if there have been any efforts made to attain federal participation in the rapid transit proposal for the City of Winnipeg? Mr.

Duchar me: Only briefly at a meeting-when you are talking about other issues the mayor and I did talk to one Minister in regard to where the transportation amounts were at, and we did not get any commitment from the feds. We were mainly asking about where those transportation dollars were that were available years ago. The mayor and I were told that they expired, and if you were looking for any new monies, you would have to start the whole process again.

I think that would be something that you could do if you got a full answer, or if somebody had looked at all the different ideas on transportation and came forward and said to the feds, this is the best. This is what we want to do. I think that would be the time to go to them and say, would you participate in it. We are being told that in Ottawa the feds did not participate in their transit corridors so that is the answer Ottawa gives us. Mr. Rel d: I guess I have a concern being that I am from the northeast sector of Winnipeg.

When I hear the comments being made about developing the southwest corridor of the city, it causes me some

November 19 , 19 90 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 76 concern, and I am sure for the residents of that sector of the city from which I am from some concern as well. If the province decides to participate in the southwest sector transit corridor, in the long term would it look like the province would also participate in the development of rapid transit in other areas of the city in the future to come? Mr. Ducharme: You are being a little hypothetical on whether we are going to participate in the southwest corridor.

You have to remember that the reason why they are using the southwest corridor or that area is the availability of the track that is running along Pembina Highway. Not only that, but the traffic counts show that Pembina Highway is one of the few that is as busy going both ways at the same time.

In other words, busy going to the university and busy going downtown between seven and nine, and four and six it is busy both ways. lt is one of the few corridors that is like that, so they fe lt that was one of the corridors that would probably more than likely be able to pay its way because of that type of traffic pattern . I know that the Member is from Transcona. You would not have that type of traffic pattern that they do on Pembina Highway. I know that it is a busy street. I know that Regent Avenue is very busy. I would like to see Regent Avenue exp anded , but I do not know where they are at.

The City of Winnipeg is involved in that one . I have no idea. That is the reason why they are looking at the corridor southwest is because it is one area, with the population of the University of Manitoba, that is busy all the time. Mr. Rel d: I am glad you mentioned about the Pembina Highway counts because I think if you look at the access routes into the communities of northeast Winnipeg , there are many areas by which you can access those communities.

I am just wondering if the city, in conj unction with the province, has taken into consideration all of the traffic counts that would feed into these areas and based that total figur e on the traffic flow into the southwest corridor of the City of Winnipeg. Mr. Duch arme : We ha ve not taken into consideration any traffic count simply because the province has not been involved in the southwest corridor.

We have looked at presentations on the southwest corridor, but that is why I say that before you look at any transportation system for the City of Winnipeg, that you look at the total city and what you are going to need in the total city. I do not know whether they have made any of those counts in regard to your area. I know they have made them on Pembina Highway. I guess when they are selling that corridor in one specific area, that is the counts they are going to give you there. Mr.

Re ld: My last ques tion is: I ask the Minister to take into consideration the ques tion that I just made to him if and when the province does become involved in the area of participation in the rapid transit for the City of Winnipeg . Mr. Ducharme: I would suggest to the Member that if we are fortunate in getting our commission and the City of Winnipeg agrees to it, and we sit down and review the transportation system, then I know the Member will be there to make a presentation to that committee. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Stefanson) : No further ques tions. Item 2. (

b) Urban Transit Operating Grant $17, 726 ,500 .00. Mr. Carr: Yes, I just have one brief quest ion, Mr. Acting Chairman. The sen iors' transport system has been running in South Winnipeg for the last number of years very successfully, but it has had to close its motors as far as I know. Has the group approached the Minister for a grant? I know that there were some campaign commitments made in 19 88 to this organization. I do not know whether they were fulf illed or not.

Does the Govern ment have any intention in sustaining this very effective and very responsible group of individuals who are volunteering their time in order to move literally dozens of South Winnipeg residents around, or has the Government decided not to participate in any way to help them stay afloat? Mr. Duchar me: First of all, we have not heard from them for almost two years. I must say though that we have committed ourselves to probably-we even upped the funding of the Handi- Transit because it became so popular in the rest of the city. We moved with a four-year program into a three-year.

We moved our grants up on that basis because it became so popular. We fe lt that we would like to provide the Handi-Transit to whoever cannot take the regular transportation. Unfor tunately, the transit that the Member is

14 77 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 19 , 19 90 talking about is probably a very, very good syste m. However, it was not a system that was ope rating and looking after the city as a whole. We felt that if we were going to put those kinds of monies in, and what we did, we supp orted the previous administration. They had agreed that they would discontinue the funding to that particular area of the city and go in with an extended Handi- Transit syste m. That was in the city's budget and was discussed. I think we came in in May and we supported that.

We also supported the idea that we would move it up from four to three years . lt has worked out very well. Anyone in that particular area you are ref erring to who cannot take the regular transit and they do have a doctor's certificate, can ride the extended Handi- Transit like eve ryone els e in the City of Winnipeg . Not only that, you do not have to be a senior. You can be handicapped. You now can ride the transit based on your inability to ride the regular transit syste m.

I do not make any apologies for going into this program. lt shows in the figu res that we have been getting that it has bee n very, very popular. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Stef anson) : Item 2. (

b) Urban Transit Operating Grant $1 7 ,726 ,500-pass ; (

c) Gener al Support Grant $7,635,2 00.00. Ms. Frlesen : Mr. Acting Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister to give me some history on this. Why are there two unconditional grants to the city? Mr. Ducharme: This is the payroll tax offset, this one. Ms. Frlesen : I wanted to talk about the City of Winnipeg revenues and the opportunities for the City of Winnipeg to increase revenues. Is this the appropriate place, Mr. Acting Chairman, to discuss it? I could not think of anywhere else to put it. Mr. Ducharme : Mr. Acting Chairman, I have no problem for it to be done here . Ms.

Frlesen : There have been a number of suggestions lately to the Minister, either through the paper or through various other means, I think, to provide opportunities for the City of Winnipeg to increase its revenues. Some people suggested an increase on the income tax system, some have suggested alterations in the property tax credit and others have suggested various types of sales tax. * (212 0) I wonder if the Minister could give me some perspective on what the dep artment's, of what the province's interest in this is and what his long- term plans are? Mr.

Ducharme : Okay, first of all the Member is refe rring to the CUPE report. I read the CUPE report. Ms. Frlesen : One of them. Mr. Ducharme : Yes, I read that one and there have been sugges tions from City Hall repeatedly over the last 15 years on how they increase the revenues. I know that the chairman and I have sat, probably, and gone over those revenues when we were there at city hall. Probably some of us supported differen t revenues, increases , and diffe rent fo rms oftaxati on.

I gues s the view of our Government right now, at Urban Affairs anyway as Minister, is that I am saying to them that we think maybe they should get their own act together. When you start increasing taxes in the vicinity of 10 percent when we are telling all our agencies and everybody else to keep it at fo ur, you are just going to the same taxpayer, you are just going to his or her other pocket. I know that it is one of the things that the city is going to be addressing with us when they meet us in December. I have been warned ahead of time that they are going to be coming and addressing those types of issues.

They are probably going to talk about tax credits; they are probably going to talk about their water levies; they are probably going to talk business assessmen t taxes on small business es, large businesse s. I noticed even in the CUPE report, it is amazing how you can turn things around. They mentioned that a starter home in the City of Winnipeg has the same taxes as a starter home in the City of Calgary, but a starter home in the City of Calgary is $1 35,0 00 and a starter home in Winnipeg is $80 ,000 . I must admit our own Minister used that in his budget speech too, but that is how you use figures.

I guess that until we hear from the city on what they figur e their wants are, and we will see their list, I am looking forward to seeing their list. We have had brief discussions with them however, other than probably one meeting with the mayor just before he talked to the Chamber of Commerce, he brought up some of his wish list. We will see them when he brings us it in December. Ms. Frle sen : Could the Minister elaborate on his earlier state ment, "the city should get its act together"? Mr. Duchar me: I think no offence to the people who serve on City Council; it is all tough right now. I am

November 19 , 19 90 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 78 saying that they are elected to do their priorities. They have to sit down and do their own budget. They have now got that power at EPC to sit down and do their own budget. I think it is up to them to go through the budget and not rely on coming to us in January and February and saying: I thought we were going to get X number of dollars from you as an increase . I think they are going to have to sit down and start figuring out where their priorities lie. l still believe that it might be differ ent in this budget structure.

You remember the controversy last year in the spring when they were pulling money out and putting back in, and that is the system that council seems to use . The biggest concern of ours is their heavy expenditur es; they have increased their capital expenditures. Their capital expenditures have risen.

Their debt costs have risen, I think, close to 40 percent in the last two or three years. last April when they filed their budget, and we have to approve their capital borrowing to the provincial Government, there was a letter that went out from our Depu ty Minister of Finance address ing that situation, saying: watch your capital because you might get to the point where your grading might be affected. We have asked them to come back to us with their plan. We have not seen that yet. Maybe that will be something else they will bring to us in December.

Remember, it is tough for a council and why I say "until they get their act together", council can go and look at a capital budget and pull out $1 0 million and it does not really affect their current costs because they do not pay any interest on that capital until next year anyway, so it is not so easy to do it. You cannot do it all in one year. You have to have a plan to reduce your capital for two or three years down to the $75 million or $80 million that they now speak of. If they do that, well then over two or three years it will show that you can do it and you can reduce your capital.

That in turn will reduce your current expenditures. Ms. Frlesen : I think we would certainly agree with you that the extensive capital spen ding, particularly in suburban deve lopment, is one of the factors in the City of Winnipeg's current problems. I am still looking for solutions to the situation that Winnipeg has, particularly in its core area and in, sort of the second ring of urban development. Do I understand you to say that at this stage you have no long-r ange plans and that there has been no planning in the depa rtment to offer any alternatives to the city for revenue raising? Mr.

Ducharme: I would say that we have no alternatives for them. We are working on it now, and we would like to see their proposal. We have our own. We have some proposals that I take to Cabinet and Urban Affairs Committee Cabinet. We do have a proposal. However, that proposal will go through Urban Affairs Committee Cabinet first and might not be approved. Howe ve r, you did men tion the sub urban growth-we ll, you have to remember that I was on City Council and through that series, I approved probably in the vicinity of $200 million under two Core Area Agreements over a 1 0-year period.

That did not go under suburban growth. That did not go under suburban areas. Some people now are making more demands of suburban growth, but you have to remember that there has not been-if you take a look at the cheapest lands de veloped in the last five to 1 0 years, this has been the southeast

section of the city and the south part of the southwest

section because of the main lines that were put in. That is where the city devel oped because that was the cheapes t area to develop, other than if you had some large areas in the City of Winnipeg in the core area, but unfortunat ely you do not have large parcels of land. I think that, when council is looking at those subdivision agreements, they will look at what they have to recapture, but you have to re member, and I must say it again, suburban sprawl was not in the City of Winnipeg. You want to take a look at sprawl, take a look at the outlying areas of the City of Winnipeg , or the East St.

Pauls, Springf ields and that, and the one or two-acre parcels that have been developed, and that is what you call real sprawl. There has been no deviation away from Plan Winnipeg of 1986, none whatsoever. There has not been any expansion beyond the urban limit line. They have made some changes from industrial to residential. However, that is a p lan that went through the public hearing process. That was the plan that was agreed to by the previous administration in 1986. That is what the city stayed with.

Sure, they have asked for amendments and I know previous administration and this particular Government did not approve any. Howe ver, now they will go through the Plan Winnipeg and they will go through it all.

14 79 LEG ISLA TIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 19 , 19 90 * (213 0) We have asked for them to have public hearings, go through the public hearing process, review Plan Winnipeg again because it is ne cessary to look at it every five years, and we will ask them to go through that public hearing process. Maybe during the Plan Winnipeg, you will find that is how you will get through your alternate methods of development through that particular process. We are hoping that process to be completed by, I think it was '92. The city has said that they are going to proceed with that process of reviewing planning. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Eric Stefanson) : Item 2. (

c) General Support Grant $7 ,635 ,200-pa ss. Resolution 14 1: RE SOL VED that there be granted to Her Maje sty a sum not exceedi ng $45,861 ,700 for Urban Affairs Financial Assistance to the City of Winnipeg for the financial year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 91 -pa ss. Urban Policy and Agr eemen t Management: (

a) Salaries $447,9 00 .00. Mr. Carr: Is this an appropriate place to discuss the North Portage Dev elopment Corpo ration? Mr. Ducharme: lt is right on the next page if you want to get to that. We have 234 right over on the next page . The Acting Chairman (Mr. Eric Stefanson) : Shall the item pass-pass. (

b) Other Expenditures $14 3 ,80 0-pass ; (

c) North Portage Redevelopment $234,000 .00 Mr. Carr: Mr. Acting Chairman, I have a series of qu estions on the North Portage Deve lopment Corporation. I would like to begin by asking the Ministe r when he expec ts the North Portage Develo pment Corporation's chief exe cutive officer and the members of the board to appear in front of a Legislative Committee? Mr. Ducharme: I am surprised this que stion came up. What I did was I am negotiating with the House Leader right now to find out what committee it is to appear on. He will tell us and I am sure we are going to be appear ing during this Session.

I told the Member I think in private conversation that I would be writing the Members after I discussed it with the shareholders. I did write Dr. Arnold Naimark on the public accountability of trilevel corporations. In my letter I said as a result of these problems and concerns expressed by Members of the Manitoba Legislature, on July 31 , 19 90, the Manitoba Minister of Finance (Mr. Mannes

s) requested a special audit. Then I mentioned that through that we would like him to appear as chairperson of the board and the chief executive off icer in the North Portage Dev elopment Corporation, appear before a provincial legislative committee. Questions would be posed concerning the mandate and activities of the appropriation. There would have to be an understanding that confidential inf ormation prejudicing either of the third parties would not be-or a commercial undertaking might not be available. lt might not be available for him to discuss with the Members.

I have asked him to appear, and I will be advising him when the House Leader has told me the committee that it will appear on. I will be req uesting the chairperson to appear. Mr. Carr: Mr. Acting Chairman, this is a step forward . There are millions of Manitoba tax dollars which have been unaccounted for over the last five years , dating back actually to the first Core Area Agreemen t. lt goes back furth er than that. I would like to thank the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme) and also the Minister of Finance (Mr. Mannes

s) for this important step forward . Accountability af ter all is the name of the legisla tor's game in many respec ts . We are responsible for the expend iture of some $5 billion a year through the Estimates of this Government, and it is our role, as Members of committee, to ask intelligent ques tions the best we can to ensure that that money is being well spent. We have not had that opportunity with monies spent through the Core Agree men t, through the Nor th Por tage Dev elopment Corporation and also through The Forks Renewal Corporation. I welcome the co-operation of the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness) and the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme) to ensure that Members of this House have the same opportunity to ques tion officers of these agencies that city councillors have had for many years. I understand that all three corporations will be appearing in front of a legislative committee, North Portage , Core and The Forks Renewal Corporation, is that correct? Mr. Duchar me: Of the ones I have requested would be-<� ne is from The Forks and one is from North of Portage.

As the Member appreciates, the Core Area is accountable for all their monies, and it is accountable at this particular committee here.

November 19 , 19 90 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 14 80 You can ask any specific expenditures on Core at this particular meeting, and we will give any of them to you. We have lists of all monies spent by the Core Area, and we fel t that the Core Area is a term type of-u nlike The Forks and the North of Portage, it goes on and on and on for a long period of time. They are not as accountable at this committee as the other two are . Mr. Carr: I am sorry, I missed that. Mr. Ducharme : They are more accountable at this committee than the other two. Mr. Carr: Mr.

Acting Chairman, much of the last Session of the le gislature was dominated by ques tions about the North Portage Corporation, and in particular the Place Promenade , let us call it debacle, that req uired the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) to ask the Provincial Auditor to do an extensive audit. Has the Minister read the Auditor's report? Mr. Ducharme: Yes, I have read the report, and I did go over some items briefly with the Minister of Finan ce. We felt tha t becaus e of the recommendations of the Auditor, it was the reason why we wrote the letter to the two, North of Portage and The Forks.

You have to remember that the Auditor said in his repor t he found no fault with North Portage Dev elopment's administration. He did point out the main problem was a lack of public accountability in the way the corporation was fi rst estab lished . However to clear the air, that is why the audit was brought in, and he did mention in his Auditor's report that he sugges ts maybe they could appear before a committee. I think the Member is correct in saying the Minister did act. He did ask for the audit and I know that the Auditor interviewed the Member. The Member knows that they went through the whole process.

The North of Portage was very, very open when they went to the office . They were . They were very, very open with them when the Auditor went to the North of Portage's off ice. There was no refe rence anywhere in the Auditor's report that anyone was reluctant to give him inform ation. The only information they were concerned about was information where they are dealing with a third party.

If they are dealing with, say, Cadillac Fairview who is also deal ing in other sites of the City of Winnipeg , there are some rental accommodations that they feel are of a business nature, and they should have some confidence in the way they deal with their clientele . Mr. Carr: Mr. Acting Chairman, in the Auditor's report there was no reference made to all of the background financial material from which the Aud itor made his ultimate jud gmen t on the expen ditur e of some $2 3.7 million in the construction of Place Promenade.

Is the Minister at all uncomfortable with the reluctance of the Auditor to make any of that background information public, and would the Minister support a request to the Provincial Auditor so that the air could be cleared , to use the Minister's words , tha t all of the background financial informa tion be submitted for legislative review? -(i nterjection)- The Acting Chairman (Mr. Eric Stef anson) : Order, please . Honourable Members, we are trying to have a discussion here. If you would like you can carry it on in the hallway. • (21 40) Mr. Ducharme: First of all, the Auditor is impartial.

The Member can appreciate that. You have to remember though that the basis for this special audit mainly was to deal with Place Promenade. That is probably why the judgment was that we would bring them forward to come to the committee so that the Members can ask those types of questions dealing with their financial matters. I think through that process, like every other corporation provincially, I am sure that the people who are involved in the North of Portage will have no problem answering those questions. Mr. Carr: Mr. Acting Chairman, I am interested in the vacancy rate at Place Promenade .

Can the Minister bring us up to date on what those figur es are? Mr. Ducharme : The verbal vacancy rate that I have-and we are having a meeting on November 30 at North of Portage-was around the 20 percent factor. There are areas in the City of Winnipeg that are ev en higher. The only problem is when you are discussing vacancy rates, the same time when you were discussing vacancy rates last time in the House, I was asked the vacancy rate and I told them it was 20.

When you are doing rent improvements or when you are doing rent for September 1 say, and you have 30 people lined up for 30 new suites, you could end up getting 30 vacancies in September, notice in September that you are leaving in October.

14 81 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 19 , 19 90 Also, the vacancy rate-us ually people do not like to make vacancy rates public, because they do nothing for the market situation. They do not help when you are renting a block to start issuing vacancy rates. To be honest with you, I do riot think the Member is doing-if he is really concerned about the Promenade , I do not think discussing vacancy rates helps it. We are faced with the building, the building is always going to be there . I know the Member suppor ted the North of Portage urbanization. He knows that he supports that. He has for years supported North of Portage, said that urbanization-he wrote an

article that it was necessary for the downtown. I know you support that, and we know the risk factor when you are dealing with urban revitalization. -(i nterjection) No, but when you are dealing with it you do have a high risk factor and I think it is something that you are going to have. Remember the Promenade--(in terje ction)- 1 can read that sente nce-the Promenade is one part of the North of Portage. I do not think the Member would question Prairie Theatre Exchange . A lot of money went into Prairie Theatre Exchange. These are the type of projects that you need when you are revitalizing the downtown area.

If it was not a high risk factor, the Governments would not be in it, I will tell you, because nobody else would be in it. lt is something that we have to do. lt is one way of building the downtown area. Mr. Carr: If it was not a high risk factor the Government would not be in it? Is that what I just heard. Mr. Ducha rme : That is correct. We would not have been in it in the first place. Mr. Carr: So the Government was only it because there was high risk? Mr. Ducharme: Because urban revitalization is usually high risk. lt does not pay its way generally for a long time. Mr.

Carr: There was not much risk for Imperial Dev elopments obviously. In spite of the fact that the project went broke, Imperial Dev elopments by all accounts did quite well. Can the Minister tell us just how well Imperial Develo pments did out of the project? Mr. Duchar me : If the Member is saying that a developer, who probably lost an equ ity position of $2.4 million plus another further $2 million in security money, forfeited when he lost ownership, did well, I do not think I could really answer any better than that. Remember, this was not the Government that was involved in the original signing of that.

We could question the previous administration's involvement in it. However, if you look at what was available for No rth of Po rtag e, you wan ted the housing componen t in it, and everybody talked that the housing component was very necessary for North of Portage. I think that it was not that bad an arrange ment. You still have the building, the city and the province have not lost anything, the building is still there .

The Auditor's Report showed that no one has taken off with any monies, so I am saying to you that I think we are going to have to watch how the building is progressing, how the vacancy rate will compare to other private vacancy rates in the City of Winnipeg and, if it gets out of hand with what is happening in other buildings, then I guess we would have to show concern at North of Portage. We know what the vacancy rate is like in the City of Winnipeg. Martin Bergen' s buildings, for instance, are showing the same types of vacancy rates. Mr. Carr: Mr.

Acting Chairman, I would like to establish the vacancy rate at Place Promenade . Cognizant of the Minister's remarks that it is not in the interests of the corporation to broadcast the vacancy rate, having said that he told us what it is. lt is 20 percent. Is the Minister prepared to let us have a look at the rent rolls to verify that figur e? Mr. Duchar me : I would say that you could probably ask that ques tion when they appear at the hearings. Mr.

Carr: I will, but it should go on the record that each time I have asked the corporation for a vacancy rate, they would not tell me what it was, three , fo ur, five times over the last number of months. I am gratified that the Minister, tonight, has told us that the vacancy rate is 20 percent and encourages us to question executives of the corporation to verify that. Have I got that right? Mr. Duchar me: Yes, I said to you earlier the verbal that I have is in the 20 percent range and you could ask that question when you appear at the hearing. Mr. Carr: Glad to have the Minister on the record in that regard .

November 19 , 19 90 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 14 82 What is the monthly shortf all of Place Promenade currently? Mr. Duchar me: I do not have those specifics. You will have to ask that again. I think the Member-1 know he is on the line of North of Portage, but I think it best be questioned. I would not want to give you particulars. I would hate to make the million dollar shortfalls that people are criticizing them for, and I am not going to commit myself to numbers . I do not believe I want to get into numbers. You can ask those questions. Mr.

Carr: Fair enough, I would be glad to enter into a debate with the Minister on this, but if he does not have the numbers available I appreciate that. We will ask the Nor th Por tage Development Corporation. Ms. Frlesen : I wanted to ask the Minister about the policing of north Portage, because one of the things that has happened in the whole North Portage Devel opment is that we have converted public space into private space and that there are now essentially private police forces security agents policing that area.

I am wondering if the Minister has any comments on that on a philosophical basis, first of all, and second of all, what kind of comments has he had from the gen eral public on the activities of the security people , security policies, at north Portage? Mr. Ducharme: I have no problem with them hiring private police people to look in the areas. The City of Winnipeg , we knew that anytime you do have a place like North of Portage or The Forks, there will be a gathering place. I think that is the respo nsibility of the City of Winnipeg to act and look after those areas .

However, I have no problem with private working along with the public police. Remember, the private will only probably hold the individual, and then the police come and then they use the police, because really the private have very little power over what to do with the individual. Then they will go on from there to the police, and then they will be hauled into the police station and they will deal with detectives. They will use the police force . So private sector really is only to watch what is going on. • (21 50) Ms.

Frlesen : If that were the case, then I think that might be a reasonable policy, although I am concerned about the conversion of public space, that is, Portage Avenue , our main street, into essentially private space, privately controlled. ! think that is a philosophical issue that we would all want to look at. There are, for example as I understand it policies in north Portage which prevent the taking of photographs. I have see n, mysel f perso nally, security guards prevent, in this case ironically an East German tourist- this was before the fall of the wall-taking pictures inside north Portage.

Would the Minister have any comment on that? Mr. Ducharme: I am not aware of that. Again you are asking for specifics that probably you could ask the chairman when he appears at the committee. You could ask him about that. He would probably be more aware of what their specific policing is for Cadillac Fairview and their ranters and for the common element areas. Remember that there are probably common elemen t areas that maybe North Portage is responsible for. There are areas that Cadillac is responsible for. Maybe he can give you that information. Ms.

Frlesen : Can I fo llow up then on the IMAX Theatre, which is, I guess, the sub-appropria tion we are looking at. I understand there were , originally, proposals for IMAX to develop more films than the original one for the opening. Is that still the case? Where does that come in the budget? Mr. Duchar me: I was not involved in the original IMAX, but I understand that there are profits being put away for establishment of that fi lm producing. I do not know how they accumulate it, and I would not know what the amount would be at the present time. An Honour able Memb er: Share in profits? Mr.

Oucharme: Share in profits. I do not know what the amount would be. I guess we would have to ask-we will look for it. Ms. Frlesen : I am wondering, too, what kind of provisions were in there for that film to be made in Manitoba and those sorts of issues. Mr. Ducharme: I was not involved when that was originally done so I do not know what-a gain that is something to be asked of the North Portage Theatre Corporation. There is a footnote in the financial statements: "Contingency Fund and Film Fund. The Corporation has entered into an ope rating agree ment with Manitou Theatre Management Limited and IMAX

14 83 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 19 , 19 90 Systems Corporation to establish a contingency fund to cover any def iciencies incurred by the theatre ope rations, and a fund towards future film productions. Interest earned on the fu nds is divided equ ally between the Corporation and Manitou Theatre Managemen t Limited. One- third of net theatre revenue and one-th ird of film rental revenue is appropriated yearly towards the film fund ." Ms. Frlesen : What state is that fund at now?

Is there any respons ibility on the part of the province to ensure that it actually does become a film rather than a fund ? Mr. Duchar me: I have some figures here , but I would ask the Member to ask that when the North Portage comes forward. There is some listing in here , but the numbers to us-1 would not want to throw them out. I think that maybe you could get them to answer that when they come. Ms. Frlesen : Mr. Acting Chairman, it is a procedural point at this stage. I do not have any more ques tions on North Portage. I wanted to move on to The Forks, as a subsidiary of North Portage.

Is this the appropriate place to do it? The Acting Chairman (Mr. Stefanson) : I would think it is appropriate to deal with The Forks under this

section as well. Mr. Re ld: Mr. Acting Chairman, just for a point of inform ation, I am not totally fa miliar with the Place Promenade which I believe was part of the North Portage development. Could you tell me something about the Place Promenade, the accommodations there. Is it- The Acting Chairman (Mr. Stefanson) : Do you want to pull your mike a little closer, please ? Mr. Rel d: Is it rental accommodations or is there a condominium type deve lopment in that complex? Mr. Duchar me: lt is a rental accommodation. There are also some subsidy accommodations in there . Mr.

Reld : Has any thought been given or any studies been done to determine whether or not there is feasi bility in deve loping that for condominium use? Mr. Duchar me: First of all , the Member must realize why the North Portage purchased that building back and why they did not allow it to go for for eclosure. lt was in the hope that they get the building to proceed to an equ ity position and then put it on the market place. The idea is not to hold on to the building. If the North of Portage had their way they would be selling it today. However, the whole idea is to sell it when it is profitable to do so. Mr.

Carr: Reg rettably, one of the consequences of the North Portage Dev elopment has been the massive vacating of the south side. Not only that, but if you look at the north side of Portage Avenue towards Main Street next to the North Portage Dev elopment, you will see that there are literally tens of thousands of vacant square footage for lease or for rent. The North Portage Corporation has within its mandate and within its budget $1 .2 million to spend on the south side of Portage Avenue . Up until only a few months ago, I believe not so much as a penny had been spent aside from consultants' reports.

Can the Minister bring us up to date by telling us how much of that $1 .2 million has been spent to date and how? (Mr . Dep uty Chairman in the Chair) Mr. Ducharme: The Member is correct. They did hire a south side co-ordinator, and he was hired by North Portage to deal with the aspects. He is to come back with a report. I know we will be dealing with it again on the 30th at our North Portage-1 think the purpose and objectives was to provide and direct incentive for landlords to improve the physical quality of the building. He was to assist and recruit many new tenants for the presently vacant space.

He was to encourage present tenants to improve, expand and redevelop their premises. He was to pr ovide a catalyst for ongoing co-oper ative promotion of the ar ea. That report will be coming forward. I am not aware, other than consultants, that they have spent any additional money. First of all, the incentives that have taken place to date out of that for the south side , was the co-ordinator, Mr. Hart Mellan, has been hired as I said by North Portage . A $700,000 Portage Avenue South Side Improvement Program was approved by the North Portage board on August 28, 19 90.

The program provides $1 for every $2 provided by the owners to improve the exterior store fronts as well as the interior premises to accommodate leasing to new ground floor tenants. There is an application that was provided to all the south side peop le, if they want to apply for that South Side Improvement Program. North Portage has recommended in the

November 19 , 19 90 LEG ISLA TIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 84 Corroleus Report-the report has issued a proposal call for escalator connections to the existing skywalk syste m. Successful propone nts will have to demonstrate if substantial additional investment will be made in their property as well as identifying the benefits to adjacent property lines. He has asked for a proposal call, so there will be a proposal call on the escalators.

As you know, or are not aware, our community police office at 378 Portage Avenue opened on October 17 through the co-ordinating efforts of the Downtown BIZ and the City in support of North Portage. There is also a merchants' activity park to be located in the vacant lot at 400 Portage Avenue as recommended by Council's ad hoc committee on the south side. South side story awaits approval by the Board of Commissioners. They were supposed to approve that some time in October, and the completion of the concept and plans were fa cilitated by the Departm ent of Parks and Recreation.

A group of south side merchants through the co-ordination of North Portage- ! am saying, that I think they mentioned that they ha ve also -and this is a lette r from North Portage-m et with the Works and Operations Committee to address the need . They have no money, so I imagine we will get our figur e . -(i nterjection)- As a res ult of that improvement program they have opened up one store, and we do not have the figures from that yet. Mr. Carr: I think, Mr. Depu ty Chairman, I asked how much had been spent. Mr. Ducharme: I think by what I read they are ready to spen d it all.

The Member might laugh, but he just asked a question in the House a couple of days ago, and I just gave him the information. Mr. Carr : The Minister intends to propose the idea that there ought to be one downtown redevelopment corporation. This was an idea accepted by his Party during the most recent election campaign. We will not take any pride of authorship. The Minister and his Party have accepted the idea as a good one and we accept that. Can the Minister let us know how far along the concept is with the partner s at the city and the federal Government, and when we can expect an announcement? •

(2200) Mr. Ducharme: First of all, I know that the Member would like to take corn plete credit for that, but it can go back to 19 88 when it was first discussed by this Member. Obviously he wants to take credit, and I do not mind as long as something good comes of co-operation with Governments. lt is very unusual we get those kinds of eo-operations. I am willing to let him take his credit for it because he did push it a little bit, but this Minister did mention it first. I have written the other two shareholders.

I have asked them for their co-ope ration and their commitmen t to ad dr essing the issue and amalgamating the two. To be honest with you, we are on record, and I agree with the amalgamation. I think that would be the right place to go now. If for anything else, it would be because of the misun de rstanding out ther e that the North of Portage is competing with The Forks for projects. That bothers me as a Minister because anyone who has been involved in the North of Portage and The Forks knows that is not happening because they are two diffe rent mandates altogether. Unfortunate ly, that stays out there.

If it means we are going to resolve that situation about people thinking that, and if we could admit it, maybe it is time now, there might be som e dollar s on administration costs, and there might be times that some of these projects that people thought were coming to The Forks, maybe the North of Portage can make use of them, all the best. I have gone on record, and without speaking out of track, in a meeting with the federal Minister, he did say that he probably favours a combination of the two. Mr. Carr: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, lssie Coop recently resigned as chief executive officer of the North Portage Dev elopment Corporation. What was his salary at the point of his resignation? Mr. Duchar me: I believe it was $1 40,0 00 a year. Mr. Carr: I understand he was not replaced by another chief executive officer . Mr. Duchar me: No, he was not. Mr. Carr: Therefore the corporation now is being run by a gener al manager? Mr. Ducharme: That is correct. Mr. Carr: What is his salary? Mr. Ducharme: I would not want to give you that salary, I would be guesstimating.

I know what vicinity it is in, but maybe you could ask the chairman when he comes forwa rd.

14 85 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITO BA November 19 , 19 90 That was very, very adamant, when lssie Coop left, as a Minister, that we not rehire at this present time, a chief executive office r. Mr. Carr: The Minister was involved in that decision then? Mr. Ducharme: I was advised of that decision, that they were going to have that meeting. My people who sat on the board came to me and said they were discussing the situation. They asked me what my opinion was, and I told them I did not want the chief executive officer to be hired at this time. Mr.

Carr: Does the same logic hold true for The Forks Corporation? Mr. Ducharm e : We are not losing the chief executive off icer of The Forks Corporation. Mr. Carr: Okay, we will get into that discussion in more detail when we discuss The Forks. Is there any evidence that North Portage is, in any way, hindered by the absence of a chief executive of ficer? Mr. Ducharme : I would not believe so. Mr. Rel d: I have a couple of ques tions going back to so me earlier comm ents by the Ministe r concerning the type of rental accommodations in Place Promenade .

Earlier statements indicated there was a 20 percent vacancy rate in there. Could the Minister give me some indication as to what the rental fees are for these accommodations in this building? Is there a range in there? If there is, could he give me a high and low figur e? Mr. Duchar me: You would probably have to come to the meeting when we bring forward the North of Portage board. He could answer those questions. I do no t know wha t the range of the ir accommodations is. All I am told is that they are in the moderate range, whatever that means. Mr.

Rel d: Is that the Minister's statement, the moderate range, or that the manager for the- Mr. Duchar me: That is what I am told by my staff. lt is in the moderate range. Mr. Re ld: I am trying to get a feel for what moderate means. Moderate to others is not the same thing. Mr. Duchar me: I would sugges t that you ask and you get the specific figur es because there are different types of suites in there , if you have been in the building. There are some suites that have two bedrooms, two baths, it can be shared by two people working. They can give you those figur es.

I would sugges t you ask them when they come forward. Mr. Re ld: With the 20 percent vacancy rate figur e that was given, could the Minister give me some indi cation as to wha t proportion of the accommodation is subsidized that is vacant versus the non-subsidized portion? Mr. Duchar me: No, I could not give you those fi gures. Mr. Rel d: Will those figu res also be available from the- Mr. Duchar me: No, I guess- Mr. Re ld: I will rephrase the question. lt is a bad ques tion. lt was worded poorly. I will reword it for clarification purpose s.

The figur e 20 percent in the vacancy rate was stated earlier by the Minister for that particular building in the rental accommodations. What I would like to know is, what portion of the units, the 20 percent vacancy rate, that are subsidized are going vacant versus those that are non-subsidized? Mr. Duchar me: I could not give you that informa tion. When I mentioned subsidies, I am pretty sure-and I have to recall when we opened the place, I opened it in '88--1 believe there was a couple of handicap suites that would get rental supplements. I could be wrong. Mostly it is geared to straight rental income.

How many of the suites are subsidized, I would not know. If you look at the block, it would be mainly called a private rental accommodation and very little subsidy is in it. Mr. Re ld: So it would be best for us to get that information when they come before committee? Mr. Ducharme : Especially when you are talking about vacancy rates. I told you that the verbal information I received was 20 percent. However, I have not confirmed that, and I will not be able to confirm it until we may meet with them in November, or you can confirm when they sit down with you at the table.

If you want to know how many suites are available or what the prices are, you could ask them about the price of suites because that is common knowledge . If somebody asks, how much do you charge for your suite, you could fi nd out and you could say, what is the range of your suites. They are dealing in the private sector. They do have a rentalsman looking after it.. lt is a private

November 19 , 19 90 LEG ISLA TIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 14 86 business looking after it to rent their suites for them. If you phoned up and said, how much you charge for your suites, they will gladly tell you. Mr. Deputy Chairman : Item 3. Ms. Frle sen : I wanted to tal k about the amalgamation issue. I agree with the Minister that The Forks and North Portage are perceived as competing for the same kinds of projects. I also agree with him that they are not, in their mandates, competing for the same kinds of projects. I wonder how amalgamation is really going to solve that issue of perception.

I have a numb er of concerns about the amalgamation issue. One is that it seems to me to be creating a megacorporation that is going to look at the development of downtown Winnipeg in the absence of a develo pment plan by the City of Winnipeg for downtown. * (2 21 0) The second thing is, it seems to me that it is taking the development of downtown Winnipeg further away from citizen participation. I wonder how the Minister would respond to those issues. Mr. Ducharme: Well, first of all, I never suggested that youwould take it from citizen participation. Your board could be a combination board.

Your boards from the Forks could work in separation of the ones that are on North Portage. They can work together; however, I think maybe the original mandate of The Forks was that The Forks-a nd the previous ad minis tra tion is the one tha t signed the agreement-pay its way. However, because of the success of The Forks, people maybe now have a ne w idea on what The Forks should be: no development. I know the Member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) sat on The Forks.

She knows the original concept was that it should pay for its way at some time, even if you develop just the existing buildings and made use of them to pay for the rest of the park-lik e setting. You know you hear rumours that some people would like to fi ll The Forks up. You hear rumours that maybe if you are going to do development-and there is still some development left in North Portage-that is where some of your cash flow will come from . Maybe the idea is to develop a little more than North Portage to help pay for the parklike setting that you have at The Forks.

I am sure before a def inite agreement of putting them together-we did ask our administration in early September or late August to come back in two or three months to give us the pros and cons of putting them together. We have asked for that. I think that North Portage now could probably deal with less administration than what they had before. I think maybe they should have to gear towards mor e of a ma rke ting situation and not a development situation. So maybe it is a good time to combine. I do not know. I guess the real problem is that people now perceive The Forks as a different type of program.

They think it should be only a park; and, if you are going to have only a park, then there has to be other means of making The Forks pay. They cannot pay under the existing structure that we have. Ms. Frlesen : At this stage, I was really looking at the amalgamation of the two corporations. So the kind of structure that you are envisioning at the moment could incorporate two separ ate boards, two separate kinds of goals? Mr. Duc harme : You can have the same corporation with two boards.

You can have two boards that might have different ideas on what they think The Forks should be and what the North Portage-you could have people with different interests, because you do have The Forks as a different mandate. The Forks is a different type of development. People more and more everyday perceive it as a differen t type of development. Ms. Frle sen : In these two corporate boards or parallel structures, or whatever eventually comes out of this, is ther e any pot ential ? Are you considering any kind of ele ction of board members, or are you looking still at appointed board members? Mr.

Duchar me: We have not gotten to that. I think that when you are dealing with boards, the Govern ments have a direct policy input. I see noth ing wrong with the way they have been appointed. I have no question about the way they have been appointed. You could maybe look at some other method of getting some other citizen members to be involved. However, the members that we have had on North Portage and on The Forks, this is the way they have been appointed. They have been pretty good people. Ms. Frlesen : I am ready to move on to The Forks. Are the other Members of the committee? Mr. Dep uty Chairman: Item 3.(

c) North Portage Redev elopment.

14 87 LEG ISLA TIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 19 , 19 90 An Honourable Member : No. Wait a minute. The Forks is under this. Sorry. While you were out, we agreed to have The Forks under here as a subsidiary. Ms. Frlesen: The Forks is coming to the end of its fi rst five-year plan, and I am wondering what pr oced ures are being put in pla ce for the development of a second phase for The Forks. Mr. Ducha rme: The same procedure that it was before-that is, they asked people to give proposals on what they felt should be in The Forks area.

I would really, myself personally, if you are asking me about the provincial Governmen t, I would like to see the three buildings developed. That is the Johnson Terminal, even the B & B Building and the high stack, the steam plant. I would like to see those three buildings deve loped. I am saying: Dev elop them with a means that they can at least pay for part of The Forks, because that was the whole idea of it. If we do not use those buildings to help pay for the res t of The Forks, then there is going to have to be a totally new mandate established by the three partners.

As the Member is aware, it cannot rely on the Market by itself, and you would not want to fill up too much more of the other property. lt is a beautifu l site. So I am saying that I would like to see those three developed so that they pay for part of The Forks. Ms. Frlesen: I understand what you are say ing about the self-su f ficie ncy of those particular buildings. Is the Minister prepared , and does he know if his partners are prepared , to look at a new mandate for The Forks in the second five years? Whatever period. Mr.

Duch arme: I would not be wise to tell you that we have not discussed it; and , if you are going to have a new mandate, then I guess what you do is go out to public hearings again and hear what the people have to say. I do not know whether the Governments would be ready to put new monies into The Forks. As the Mem ber is aware , there has been approximately $26 million or $27 million put into The Forks dev elopment, and I do not know whether the Gov

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-1-27b
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Volume / chapter	35th 1st hansardpdf 27b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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