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September 26, 2012

40th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2012-Sep-26 (PDF)

L084 - Wed 26 Sep 2012 / Mer 26 sep 2012

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Wednesday 26 September 2012 Mercredi 26 septembre 2012

BOARD OF INTERNAL ECONOMY

MEMBERS’ PRIVILEGES

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

BOARD OF INTERNAL ECONOMY

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I beg to inform the House that, in accordance with

section 87 of the Legislative Assembly Act, the names of the following persons appointed to serve on the Board of Internal Economy have been communicated to me as chair of the Board of Internal Economy. The Honourable Dwight Duncan, MPP, is appointed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council from among the members of the executive council. David Orazietti, MPP, is appointed by the caucus of the government. Sylvia Jones, MPP, is appointed by the caucus of the official opposition. Cindy Forster, MPP, is appointed by the caucus of the New Democratic Party.

MEMBERS’ PRIVILEGES

Resuming the debate adjourned on September 25, 2012, on the amendment to the amendment to the motion by Mr. Leone arising from the Speaker’s ruling of September 13, 2012.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate.

Mr. John Yakabuski: It’s a pleasure to join in the debate on this motion of contempt that is placed before us as parliamentarians.

It was interesting to hear a little bit—and I’ll get back to that a little later—about the pleas from the government side that we should not be proceeding with this motion for compassionate reasons. I’ll give you a little history about Liberal compassion a little later.

Speaker, let’s talk a little bit about the history. The people in Oakville and Mississauga were clearly opposed to the gas plants being erected in their municipalities, in their neighbourhoods, from the get-go. That was made clear. That was spoken about in this Legislature, and it was spoken about in public opinion pieces. The citizens made their views pretty clear. But the government pledged to plow ahead regardless.

Now, 11 days before the election of 2011, the decision was made all of a sudden some morning that we’re not going to proceed—the decision was made two years ago to cancel the plant in Oakville, and we’ve waited this long for a resolution on that. The decision was made 11 days before the campaign in 2011 that they would not proceed with the gas plant in Mississauga. And yes, the Liberals will say that there were statements from both the Tories and the NDP at that time that they supported that decision that those gas plants shouldn’t be built. Well, of course we said that, because we had never said they should be built in the first place. That’s the crux of the matter.

Then we fast-forward a little bit to the estimates committee going on earlier this year, when the Minister of Finance admits at committee—a minister of the crown is considered to be under oath at any committee—that the decision was purely a political one, prompted and made by the Liberal campaign team. It was not made by the OPA, not made by an independent panel that came to the conclusion that this was a wrong decision that should be reversed. No, it was made by the Liberal campaign team just 11 days before a provincial election—a provincial election, I might add, Mr.

Speaker, that was highly competitive and resulted in a Liberal minority government. For the first time, Dalton McGuinty found himself in a minority Parliament as Premier, not a majority.

They’re wondering why this motion came to the floor in the first place. What option would the estimates committee have at that time, when a minister of the crown admits that a decision to cancel a power plant, resulting in a $190-million—and now we know from our energy critic, Mr. Fedeli, and his dogged detective work, that it now is at least $195 million to cancel and relocate the Mississauga power plant. Put yourself in the shoes of the folks on the estimates committee. Would they not be irresponsible as parliamentarians if they did not, at that time, demand to know what are the facts, what are the issues, what was the process that went into making this decision?

We need to have the documentation on everything that happened resulting in that decision to move that power plant. If they did not ask for those papers, Mr. Speaker, I contend that they would not be doing their work as parliamentarians. The estimates committee did what they are tasked and have sworn an oath to do here, and that is, the estimates committee is there to challenge and judge and analyze the estimates put forth by the government of this province. So they did what they had to do.

What was the result of their request to the Minister of Energy? A refusal to release the documents, which resulted in them turning to you, Speaker—turning to this Parliament and turning to you—and bringing forth a motion requesting that you would demand that the government release the documents. That was made, I believe, on August 27. Then you made your ruling on September 13, I believe, that compelled the government to release the documents on or before 6 p.m. on September 24.

The resulting release of those documents at some time in the early afternoon or around noon hour on the 24th then compelled my colleague from Cambridge, Mr. Leone, to proceed with this motion. What we saw yesterday from my colleague Mr. Fedeli from Nipissing was that irrespective of what the government said they would do and committed to you, Speaker, and to this Parliament—that they would release every single document related to the cancellation and relocation of those power plants—what did they do? They released a whole lot of redacted papers.

You know, we used to think about the electricity system as being subject to brownouts and blackouts, depending upon the circumstances, but it is now subject to whiteouts as well, because what Mr. Fedeli saw yesterday was nothing. You would think you were in a snowstorm with what he got as papers for the release of the documents concerning those plants.

We have no choice but to continue to press this issue. I hope that at some point the committee has the opportunity to delve much deeper into this issue, because it is the absolute right of the people of this province to know where $650 million of their money is going.

I’m flabbergasted at the approach of the government, that they would expect the opposition, on this side of the House, both us and the third party, to simply say, “Okay, thank you very much. You’ve decided where they’re going. We’ll just call it a day. We don’t really need to know what happened.” It’s sort of like if the bank robber gets up and confesses and says, “I did it. I’m sorry.” Do you think society is going to say, “Oh, no penalties for bank robbers if they confess”? Come on. I mean, this is just absolutely ridiculous, the approach they’ve taken.

But I understand their approach. I understand it’s the “Why pick on Minister Bentley?” approach. I want to make it very clear: This really isn’t about Chris Bentley. This is about the sad excuse for a politicized energy policy that has evolved on that side of the House. That’s what it is: a sad excuse. A sad excuse when you site power plants based completely on politics and un-site them based completely on politics. You make bad decisions and follow them with bad decisions totally for political reasons. That is not acceptable.

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Well, we’re off to a good start. We’ve got five sidebars going on over here. They’re talking while your speaker is speaking. Okay, the rules are going to change. We’re going to have a little quiet in here so we can listen. This is a very serious situation and I think people should be listening to this. It probably hasn’t happened in over 100 years, so I think a little quiet will be nice as of now. Thank you.

Continue.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. They don’t bother me at all.

Anyway, this is not about Chris Bentley. It’s about the government and what they’ve turned our electricity system into. Let’s just talk about the role of the OPA in this. Part of me is sympathetic towards the OPA. The other part of me is damned upset, because this was an agency that was supposed to take the politics out of the electricity system. That was the commitment by Dwight Duncan when he tabled Bill 100 several years ago, back in 2004. We were going to take the politics out of electricity. Well, we know that the politics have never been more ingrained in our electricity system than they are today.

I would suggest to the people of the OPA that you have been emasculated by this government. You have been neutered by this government. If the people at the OPA really cared about their own self-esteem, they would have resigned en masse and said this kind of interference in the electricity system is unacceptable—unacceptable.

There is not a single scientific, engineered reason for the decisions that this government has made. Not one. And what has it resulted in? Yesterday I heard from the Attorney General and I heard from the Minister of the Environment how we should just kind of play nice, that this is really unnecessary. This is $650 million.

Speaker, you weren’t here and I wasn’t here, but I was paying attention when the opposition brought forward a motion of contempt back in 2003. For what? Not for hundreds of millions of dollars possibly being misappropriated. No. It was because the government held the budget outside of the Legislature and the opposition felt they didn’t have quick access to the papers. That tied up this Legislature, because of them over there, for two weeks, from May 8 to May 21, 2003. They didn’t seem to think it was a problem then.

You know, it’s funny; you could be the most ardent supporter of capital punishment, which is what they seemed to be when it came to the Magna budget or the debate on Walkerton or anything else. They were the ardent supporters of capital punishment. But isn’t it amazing how all of a sudden you become an abolitionist when it is your head in the guillotine? That’s what happened here yesterday. The Minister of the Environment, the Attorney General—and I understand the Attorney General was having his Kingston day and he wanted everybody in the gallery to see—

Hon. John Gerretsen: You didn’t show up.

Mr. John Yakabuski: I was busy in caucus. Apparently, it went really well at your caucus, too; we’ll talk about that in a minute. So he had his guests from Kingston here, and he wanted to show what a statesman he was. Look, I love John Gerretsen. I think he’s a great guy. I don’t love you in that way, but you know which way I’m—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke knows that we don’t have cross-talks. You go through me, and try to keep the personal situation out of it. I’d appreciate it—and the Attorney General does not have to respond loudly to the member from Renfrew, okay? Next time, the Speaker will be warning.

Hon. John Gerretsen: On a point of order.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): It better be a point of order, I hope.

Hon. John Gerretsen: Could you make sure I get a copy of that last Hansard there, Speaker?

Mr. John Yakabuski: I withdraw. I withdraw.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Continue.

Mr. John Yakabuski: So I understand what his motivation was; I understand why he wanted to appear statesmanlike yesterday. But I wonder who was the statesmanlike person in the Liberal caucus yesterday.

What I find peculiar is that the Premier of Ontario decided he would rather go try to put the Liberal spin on this issue down in Oakville and tell the folks how wonderful he was that he spent $650 million of other people’s money to rid them of power plants in Oakville and Mississauga. He would rather do that than face his caucus yesterday afternoon, which is deeply divided over this issue.

They are worried because they know, when they go to their home ridings, that people are going to be asking them, “How can you justify X number of thousand cancer treatments, and how many thousand MRI treatments and how many hip replacements or knee replacements or cataract surgeries”—

Interjection: Hospitals.

Mr. John Yakabuski: —“or how many hospitals have you displaced because of your political decisions with respect to this power plant?” That’s why every single document, unredacted, must be made available to this House.

So when you ask yourselves then again about the decisions that have been made—we know that when the Mississauga power plant was cancelled, another stressed area of the province, when it came to electricity, was the Kitchener–Waterloo area and Cambridge. They didn’t move that plant there because they knew the pressure for a competitive bid process would have been so high, because there are other companies all looking to build a plant in that area. What did they do? They moved it to Sarnia.

Now what did they do with the Oakville plant? They know that the competitive bid process would come into play if they were going to site that plant where electricity was actually needed, so they put it at the Lennox site, in Bath, near Kingston. Speaker, that plant barely runs. There is no need for additional electricity generation in that area of the province—none. If you look at Lennox over the last several years, I guarantee that it’s less than 10%, probably under 5%, utilization. There’s no need for the power there.

But why did they make that decision? Because it was a quick and easy one. You talk about cynicism. Last week they’re telling us they need six weeks to deal with this issue, and all of a sudden they can come up with a new site at the eleventh hour on Monday morning. That’s when politics trumps policy, and that’s what has happened in this government.

A government that is on its last legs starts to make a lot of mistakes. They’re making mistake after mistake after mistake because they are desperate, and they will try to hide the facts or redact them. They will try to do anything so that the public doesn’t get to find the true motivation behind their decisions. That’s what’s going on here.

You look at Lennox; if you don’t need power in that area, where do you need it? Well, you need it in the western GTA. You need it in KW. You need it in other parts of the province. So how are you going to get it there? We’re not in Star Trek yet, and Scotty can’t send some lithium crystals or whatever they do to send the power down there. No. We’re going to have to build wires and towers and poles. It’s called transmission. So $200 million will be spent on transmission to move that power to where it’s needed—$200 million. Then they have the issue of, “Oh, what are we going to do with the turbines that they were going to stick in Oakville? Oh, we’ll buy them”—$210 million.

So how do you get out there? I’ll tell you. That’s what happens at Lennox: These turbines spin, but they don’t produce any power because we don’t need it. With their power policy, every time that we have a surplus here in the province, we see our water spilling over dams, two-cent-a-kilowatt-hour power spilling over our dams, while they pay massive amounts for their green energy subsidies that you and I end up paying for. Every day, we’re sending export power, for nothing—maybe a cent, maybe zero, maybe below zero—and paying premium prices for it because of the contracts that they have signed under the Green Energy Act.

When we asked for the records, the records that have been requested don’t even cover the decision to all of a sudden, at the eleventh hour, relocate this power plant to the Lennox property owned by OPG. Well, it would be probably adjacent to it; they’ll probably have to buy some property apparently beside the current OPG plant. It doesn’t even talk about the decision process that they went through there. So I think the next step for this committee, and why we have to have this committee working and get this motion struck so this committee can get to work, is so that they can get to the bottom of it.

They talked over there yesterday about good government and moving on. Oh, yes, we do need to move on, and the people of this province of Ontario would like to move on. But they’re not going to move on with some hocus-pocus excuses and a number game on the part of the government. They’re prepared to move on when they receive all of the information with respect to these decisions. They will then be prepared to pass judgment. At the next general election, the people in this province will have the right to pass judgment on this government and its record. They will judge them on, have they been truthful to the people? Have they been open and transparent as they promised?

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: Accountable.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Are they accountable to the people? Can we count on them when they say they’re doing something? Can we count on it to be the fact? The people will evaluate them and they will make a decision after the next general election.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate?

Ms. Helena Jaczek: I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, that my remarks will be somewhat less theatrical than what we have heard from the opposition.

Usually when I rise in this House, I say that I am pleased to address the business at hand, and I say that sincerely. I’m pleased to address government bills. I’m pleased to address a private member’s public business as it arises before us, because I see in those bills a genuine effort on the part of the member to try to advance life here in Ontario. I have to say today that I’m extremely disappointed to have to rise in this House. I’m disappointed with the amendment to the amendment—

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Sit down. We don’t need to hear you.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): I think, opposition party, that they showed you respect and listened. They might not have liked what you said, but they listened to you intently. I would expect the same courtesy to be given to them. The first person who yells out is going to get a first warning.

Continue.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We are now debating an amendment to an amendment to a motion brought by the member from Cambridge. We are not discussing, as I would have hoped we would, some of the important legislation to improve public services here in Ontario. Yesterday, we were supposed to have a third reading vote on the healthy homes renovation tax credit, something that will improve Ontarians’ lives and help our seniors. I was eager to vote on that excellent piece of legislation. We’re also trying to pass the Family Caregiver Leave Act, which would provide job-protected leave to help hard-working Ontarians care for ailing family members. But that’s not moving forward either.

When I was re-elected last October and it became apparent to my constituents that we were in a minority Parliament situation, many of them said to me, “Please, please, make this Parliament work.” I know that on our side of the House we’ve shown every willingness to make this Parliament work. What we see from the opposition is a concerted effort to derail the business of this House, the people’s business.

Now, let’s turn particularly to the issue of the power plants and the cancellation of both the Oakville and the Mississauga facilities.

I was very involved with the issue of where the power plant in northern York region would be situated. Certainly, when the public looks at major infrastructure investments in their community or adjacent to their community, they’re concerned. People hear terms like “megawatts,” and for some reason they find this intimidating. When I hear the term “megawatt,” I see turbines turning, and I see industry being supplied with a reliable source of power.

In the case of northern York region, there was certainly controversy about the location, adjacent to the Holland Marsh—perhaps not an ideal location, situated in the greenbelt. But the need for power was such in northern York region—for our businesses, for our residences—that overall, after many public meetings and much consultation, I’m happy to say that the York Energy Centre is now up and running; it has been for some six months.

And those who were extremely opposed at the time to the placement of that power plant in that location in northern York region have publicly acknowledged that, in fact, they do not see any detrimental effects, either to human health or to the health of the vegetables in the marsh. All is working as it should.

However, in the case of Oakville, it was determined that the public, the community in that area, was raising significant concerns. They were voiced by the community and by local elected officials, including the mayor of Oakville, Rob Burton; our own colleague MPP Kevin Flynn; and yes, of course, MPP Ted Chudleigh. Our government’s decision that was made in October 2010 for the project not to proceed was supported by Tim Hudak and the Ontario PCs, and I’d just like to quote and remind the members that on June 1, 2010, according to Hansard, Mr.

Chudleigh said, “The people of Oakville have told you they don’t want the proposed gas-fired power plant … and I agree with them.” So clearly, we were previously in agreement on the relocation of the Oakville facility, and I’m very happy to hear from the Minister of Energy that a resolution was successfully reached on September 24, 2012.

Now, when it comes to the Mississauga situation, there were many concerns raised over several years; in fact, since April 2005, when the Ontario Power Authority contracted with Greenfield South to develop and operate a 300-megawatt natural-gas-fired electricity generating station in Mississauga.

Over the course of the next number of years, particularly as construction got under way at the facility, community concerns were brought to the attention of the government, and all three of the political parties during the fall 2011 general election campaign turned their attention to this particular issue and they made the same commitment as we had made during the course of the campaign. Both the Ontario Progressive Conservative Party and the Ontario New Democratic Party made the same commitment. And the Globe and Mail of September 25, 2011, quoted Mr. Hudak as saying, “We’ve opposed these projects in Oakville and”—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Well, I guess you didn’t take me seriously. There are five people talking over there. If you want to hold court, go out there and hold court. I want to hear the speaker. This is a serious issue. Thank you.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Shortly after being re-elected, our government did announce its intention to relocate the Mississauga facility. In this case, there were some formal litigation proceedings under way, as well as confidential settlement discussions in relation to the cancellation of this project, and a resolution was successfully reached on July 10, 2012. I think what is so telling is that, immediately after that, the Minister of Energy released the documents that had been requested by the committee on estimates.

My other colleagues have detailed some of their experiences on the estimates committee. They were there between May 9 and July 11 when the Minister of Energy appeared before the Standing Committee on Estimates for the purpose of answering questions regarding the 2012-13 estimates of the Ministry of Energy. And while the minister answered questions relating to a number of issues, the committee members from the official opposition spent considerable time asking the minister questions relating to the two gas plants, which were to have been built in Oakville and Mississauga, respectively.

I think we should all acknowledge, as the Auditor General himself did, that it was a very difficult position for the Minister of Energy. The overwhelming majority of the questions asked by the committee related specifically to the ongoing outstanding legal proceedings and confidential negotiations. The Minister of Energy attempted to strike an effective balance between the committee’s authority to ask those questions and request those documents and the need to protect the public interest in the midst of highly sensitive commercial negotiations and litigation. He has a responsibility as minister of the crown, and it is different from the responsibilities that we have as members.

The Chair of the committee, the member for Beaches–East York, recognized the precarious situation of the Minister of Energy. In fact, he repeatedly ruled that, while committee members were permitted to ask such questions, the minister was able to exercise his discretion and respond to such questions in a manner that protected the interests of the province.

Mr. Prue, on May 16, as Chair of this committee, is quoted in Hansard as saying: “The minister has the right to decline either giving that documentation or giving voice to that documentation during his answering of the questions.”

And further on that day, Mr. Prue said, “I would advise that I’m going to allow the motion to proceed, but I would also advise—and I think the minister, being a lawyer himself, knows full well that he may choose to answer the question in such a way as not to prejudice the province in any way, and I would expect him to do so. That would be my ruling.”

The minister relied on the Chair’s repeated statements and rulings that the minister was permitted to respond to questions and document requests from committee members in a manner that protected the interests of the province. As a result, the minister wrote to the committee on May 30 and advised the committee that he was exercising his discretion and would not be able to produce the requested documentation as they were confidential, subject to solicitor-client privilege, litigation privilege or highly commercially sensitive.

Unfortunately, the official opposition ignored these flags that were raised by the minister. They showed no restraint, and on June 5, the member from Cambridge moved a motion to report to the House the minister’s failure to produce all responsive records pursuant to the motion of May 16 and to kick-start these contempt proceedings.

The official opposition and the third party have attempted to vilify the Minister of Energy, and they have implied that the minister hid or concealed these records. This is simply not true; let’s deal with the facts. The record shows that the Minister of Energy, at all times, was trying to balance two important yet competing public interests: the supremacy of Parliament versus protecting the taxpayers’ interests.

I think the proof, as I’ve already alluded to, is shown, because on July 10, when the minister announced that the OPA had reached an agreement with Greenfield to relocate the Mississauga facility and that the government had accepted the OPA’s recommendation to relocate the Mississauga facility to the Lambton station in Sarnia, he released the documents.

In fact, he directed his ministry to provide the committee with all correspondence relating to the Mississauga facility that was responsive to the motion of May 16, except for records that were subject to solicitor-client privilege, and these documents were provided to the committee. He was not trying to hide or conceal anything.

Now, we know that on September 13 of this year, the Speaker ruled that while a prima facie breach of privilege had been established, he would set the matter aside and ask the three House leaders to take it upon themselves to find a path that can satisfy the request of the estimates committee. I think this was a highly appropriate ruling. The minister himself clearly said he respected the ruling, and in a minority Parliament, it’s very appropriate that the three House leaders should meet and try to resolve the issue.

The Speaker clearly recognized that there were two competing public interests at play: the interests of the committee in exercising its parliamentary privileges, and the interests of the Minister of Energy in temporarily refraining from the disclosure of sensitive information in the midst of commercial negotiations and related proceedings. There was an opportunity for the three parties, through frank communication, to settle the matter in a way that satisfied the request of the estimates committee. The Speaker’s ruling clearly laid out that this was a unique situation, unlike other cases of privilege, that warranted a unique solution.

What happened since September 13? The House leaders met on four separate occasions to determine whether a solution could be found. On this side of the House, we had high hopes that the parties would ultimately reach a solution that struck a balance between the competing public interests identified in the Speaker’s ruling. The government tabled two separate proposals that would have facilitated the public release of the records, while accommodating the government’s concern about the ongoing commercial negotiations and related proceedings. Unfortunately, these proposals were not received in any serious way by the opposition House leaders.

In fact, last Friday, I’m informed that when our House leader asked the other two House leaders to attend a meeting, they stayed less than five minutes. They basically threw in the towel and made it clear they were not interested in negotiating, so I find it extremely disappointing, as I said at the onset of my remarks, that the opposition decided on Friday to walk away from the negotiations. Instead of trying to find common ground, as the Speaker requested, they left and used the time to spin the media with inaccuracies.

After a weekend of long negotiations, difficult negotiations, it was very interesting to hear from the Ministry of Energy that finally there was a settlement in the Oakville case. Shortly after announcing the settlement of the Oakville matter, the Ministry of Energy and the Ontario Power Authority released all 36,000 records that were responsive to the original motion of the estimates.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to make sure everyone knows that the Minister of Energy has attested, as an honourable member of this House, that these are the full and complete records. I think that that should be respected. I would hope that each of us, when we make a statement of that significance, would be respected. Unfortunately, it appears not.

Mr. Speaker, I’m so disappointed. This is about the politics of constant conflict, and we’ve seen this from the Ontario PC caucus over the past 12 months in this province. This is the party that opposed the first budget in the first minority government in years in Ontario. We question whether they even read it. This is the faction that voted to remove interest arbitration reforms from the budget, even though they had proposed these sorts of changes in their own platform, in Changebook. It’s the party that rang bells, filibustered committees and blocked legislation for months in the spring session.

Why are we here? It’s simple: The opposition is on a political witch hunt. I’ve known the Minister of Energy for 10 years, and he’s a man of great integrity. He has served as Attorney General of this province for four years. He has been a well-respected and honourable member of this Legislature for nine years. Before he came to this place, he was a member of the Ontario bar of the highest standing and reputation for over 25 years. He opened community law clinics and taught law classes in his spare time. He has put the public interest first, as the deal reached clearly shows.

The Minister of Energy gives of his time, as we’ve heard, with his community activities. Just last week, he came to the Whitchurch-Stouffville Chamber of Commerce for a breakfast meeting with that organization. The community of Whitchurch-Stouffville is very dedicated to sustainable energy policies, and there’s a co-operative group there that was extremely interested in hearing from the minister. I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that the minister spoke to that group for some 20 minutes and took a number of questions from members of the audience.

I am still receiving emails from people in attendance at that meeting about how grateful they were for the clarity with which he explained Ontario’s Green Energy Act—the value to Ontario, the jobs that it has created and the clean, sustainable source of power that we’re putting in place that is exemplified, in fact, by the range of energy options that we have created in this province.

As I said before, the fact that we are here debating an amendment to an amendment on a motion by the member from Cambridge disappoints me. It’s not what my constituents are expecting of the role I will and should be playing in this House. That role is to improve services and the quality of life of Ontarians, through thoughtfully considered government bills and through private members’ public business. It is a duty I think that we all need to think about long and hard.

Surely, there’s some room for some frank discussion, some compromise, some idea of putting the people’s interest first as opposed to the political vindictiveness that we see so often from the other side. It’s not what I was elected to do, and I think the sooner we bring this matter to a conclusion, the better for all Ontarians.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate?

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: I’m grateful to be part of this historic debate that I believe is going to fundamentally shape the way our Parliament and our government’s cabinet interact moving forward. I think that the previous speaker may be misinformed. It is within the people’s interest that we have this debate. It is within the interest of the people of this province that we find out how much of their hard-earned tax dollars have been mismanaged.

I’ve been listening intently to my colleagues from all political parties during this unprecedented situation. I’ve also listened to my constituents and many members of the public. In fact, as the education critic, I’ve heard from many of those who are in teachers’ unions, wondering why, at a time when they’ve been vilified by this Liberal government and asked to take a pay freeze—which we did support—they would actually have to watch this government effectively shred money.

It’s very difficult for people in the public to understand why $650 million and counting of their money has gone out the door, with little, if nothing, to show for it. And it is clear, Speaker, that without a doubt the cancellation of the Mississauga and Oakville power plants has cost those Ontario families hundreds of millions of dollars. As I said, and as many of my Progressive Conservative colleagues have said, we are now estimating that this decision by the energy minister, the Liberal campaign team and the Premier has cost Ontario families $640 million.

This is money that my constituents and many members of the public say could have been spent elsewhere. They say it could have been spent on MRIs. They say it could have been spent on other ways to help cancer patients. It could have been used in classrooms across Ontario. It could have been used for so many other reasons. But it is not, Speaker, because $640 million is now going out the window for cancellation fees and projects that will never see fruition. Speaker, that is very, very serious.

It’s also clear that in cancelling the power plants, particularly in Mississauga, those outside the traditional lines of decision-making in government—an unelected, unaccountable campaign team—made costly decisions for the people of our province.

Let’s put this into perspective. People who work on campaigns are all tireless individuals; we all know that. We respect volunteerism, particularly on political campaigns throughout the political spectrum because those folks are hard to come by. They’re diligent. They believe in something. However, they’re not entrusted by people in this province to make those types of decisions, of cancelling a power plant.

First and foremost, that affects our energy grid. Secondly, it affects the money that people send to Queen’s Park that they expect will be used in a responsible manner. They expect members of a cabinet, they expect members of the assembly, not members of a political campaign team, to make decisions about their money and power in this province. That in and of itself is a serious breach of trust, and if the member that just spoke from the Ontario Liberal Party cannot understand that, then maybe she should consider whether or not this place is her vocation or not. At the very end, Speaker, it is an inappropriate—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): I would suggest that we don’t have any personal attacks on the member from—it was kind of a bit of a stretch, so I’d appreciate it if we would stick to the issue. Thank you.

Continue.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Thank you, Speaker.

Simply, this is an inappropriate way for government decisions to be made. It was a project that cost literally hundreds of millions of dollars. It was entrusted to this assembly, and by extension to that cabinet, by the people of Ontario, and it was sadly mismanaged. To make matters worse, the decision by the Liberal campaign team was made mere days before a provincial vote.

We have a right in this assembly to ask questions, demand documents, probe this situation. That is our responsibility in the official opposition. It is our responsibility to the people of Mississauga and Oakville and to the rest of the province to get to the bottom of whether or not this was a vote-buying scheme. We have an obligation to the people of Ontario to protect their money. We have an obligation to talk about this government’s energy policy.

Now, when members of this assembly, most notably my colleague from Cambridge, Dr. Leone, sought information and sought answers from this government and its new minister on why the Liberal campaign team was quite frankly given extraordinary and exceptional powers over our electricity system, regardless of its cost to taxpayers, we rightly felt obstructed when that information was not given to us. We rightly felt, in the official opposition and I believe in the third party, obstructed, Speaker. We felt we were being denied relevant information for us to do our job.

After all, we are in the opposition to keep an eye on the government. That is why we are here. I hate to break it to members of the government, but sadly, Speaker, I think after nine years in office, they have forgotten why they’re there and why we’re here, and that is a sad testament.

That brings us to this point. We arrived at this point because the energy minister refused to adhere to the responsibilities that he was given, through the cabinet, to this assembly. He has a responsibility to give us information when it is requested through the committee structure. The Minister of Energy—and I want to make this very abundantly clear to members of the Liberal government—had a choice. He had a choice he could have made.

Chris Bentley could have shared those documents requested by Dr. Leone and others at the standing committee on estimates or what he ultimately chose to do, which was refuse to hand over the documents and inhibit the committee’s work, as well as members outside of that committee to do the work that they are expected to do and get to the bottom of this multi-million-dollar scandal.

Speaker, again, he had a choice. He could have done the right thing, the honourable thing, what was expected of him at the estimates committee, and handed over those documents to Dr. Leone. He chose not to do that. This is not the opposition’s fault. It is the government’s fault. It is the Minister of Energy’s fault. He chose to do that. He made the decision. He should be smarter than that. But he chose to do that, and we were left with whatever options we have in the opposition to get the information that we require.

Had the minister made a better decision—and I have a seven-year-old. I know all about talking to children about good decisions and bad decisions, like taking a pair of scissors to school, and when your friend says, “I want to have a fashion show; can we cut up the dress?”—that’s a bad decision when your child decides to do that. Trust me; I know. That’s a bad decision. I know what bad decisions are.

I hate to have to talk to the Minister of Energy as if he is my seven-year-old child. However, similar to taking the scissors to school to cut the little girl’s dress because they think it’s a fashion show, his decision on the Mississauga power plant, and then to conceal the information that we requested, was a bad decision.

He had a choice. He had a choice, and it was a clear one. He could have made a better decision and he would not have been in this spot. We would not be undertaking an unprecedented step today had he made a better choice. He would not have been found in a prima facie breach by the Speaker of the assembly had he made a better choice.

But we are here, because the rules of this assembly allow that. The rules in this assembly have been created to protect the opposition, the minority, from the tyranny of the majority, so that we are having abilities to protect our right to speak in this assembly, to ask questions in this assembly, to gather information in this assembly. After all, that is why we have been sent here. There is only one person who can be blamed for bringing us here to this day, to this contempt motion, and that, Speaker, is the Minister of Energy himself.

I’ve listened, as I said, intently to the debate. Members of all three political parties have had their opportunity to voice their displeasure with this unprecedented situation. I listened, for example, to the remarks of the government House leader, he of the now-famous quip that the Ontario Legislative Assembly is a kangaroo court. I think that is probably the saddest commentary I’ve heard since being elected here, that the government’s own House leader would resort to calling a duly elected assembly a kangaroo court. Speaker, he should apologize to every member of this assembly for that transgression. He should be held accountable for saying that.

That was the same member, Speaker, who said that there have been no redactions; there has been nothing hidden—no omissions. My staff member Justin Ferguson spent the last three days with another group of staffers from the Progressive Conservative caucus. I want to thank every single member of the Ontario PC caucus staff team who went through those 36,000 documents. They have been here 24 hours a day, the last three days, and you know what? Of just but two documents that I was given this morning are pages that say, “18 pages redacted, not relevant; 31 pages redacted, not relevant.”

Mr. John Yakabuski: That’s just two documents.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: That’s just two documents of how many pages that have been redacted in over 36,000 documents. And that government House leader has the audacity to stand in this place, call us a kangaroo court and then lie to us and tell us that those documents were not redacted.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Nepean–Carleton will withdraw that word.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Yes, Speaker, withdrawn.

But, Speaker, I also concentrated on the remarks by the Attorney General, the successor to the Minister of Energy. He wants this whole distasteful mess to just go away. He just wants to go to sleep tonight, wake up tomorrow and talk about some fluffy, happy thing—maybe it’s about wind turbines on Wolfe Island; I don’t know. But that’s what he chose to do and I think that’s really nice.

I think that’s really simplistic and I think that’s incredibly naive, because as I have said, his predecessor had a choice, a very clear choice: It was hand over the documents or obstruct and stall. He chose the latter; he made a choice. We’re here because of your colleague’s choice.

Now I agree that every member here comes to this place for the same reason: We want to do well for the people of Ontario; we want to put them first. We may have different ideas on what that is and how to make life here in Ontario better, but at the end of the day, right from wrong is pretty damn clear.

He had a choice: Hand over the documents or obstruct. He chose obstruction, and as much as I wish the Minister of Energy and the Attorney General well in their life outside of this place, and even inside of this place, I must say it’s incredibly naive to think that we can gloss over this historic breach of parliamentary trust. We can’t just do that because you want to; we are obligated to have those fulsome debates.

I also listened to the Minister of the Environment. He was interesting because he decided to spend a lot of time name-dropping Conservatives, and he also name-dropped a lot of New Democrats, to be fair. He said, “Oh, my goodness, these Conservatives would just be so upset that today’s Conservatives will be doing this.” I can tell you, I was sitting in a caucus meeting yesterday when one of the name-dropped Conservatives he was talking about sent another one of my colleagues a note and said, “You know what? We should not only have these guys in contempt, but we should have a confidence motion and boot them out.”

I’ve got to tell you that the Conservative family in Ontario has never been more united. The Conservative family in Ontario is ready to govern this province. The Conservative family in this province would never do what this government did and sacrifice $650 million of taxpayer money for what you’ve done and put our energy grid in Ontario at the brink. You have put more politics into our power system than any government in previous incarnations.

So to the Minister of Environment, who used to be a government House leader, I must say, I was never more displeased from hearing someone—who I consider a statesman in this House—want to gloss over a situation as serious as the one before us.

Let’s put this, again, into perspective. It is a chaotic mess at their government’s own doing. They did this; they had a choice. It was they who made the campaign decision to cancel the power plants. It was they who wasted $650 million and counting on a politically motivated, election-driven decision. It was they who refused to hand over the documents to this assembly when those documents were requested. It was they who were found in breach of the rules when they refused to hand over the documents, and it was they who redacted, omitted and hid documents once the Speaker ordered that they comply.

Speaker, it is very clear we are here because of them. I showed you the pages that have been redacted, and I am reminded again of the words of the government House leader, who said to us that they weren’t redacted. Well, they were; I know that he likes to play with the truth, but there you have it. After all, it is they—and I cannot say this enough—who are responsible for this contempt motion.

To the Attorney General’s point again, we all want to do what’s best for the province, but in this case, you and your government failed utterly and miserably.

I cannot answer why the Minister of Energy, the Liberal campaign team or the Premier made the decisions that they did. I can speculate that it was more about winning seats in the GTA than it was about good energy policy here in Ontario. I can speculate that it was more about winning seats than it was about bringing affordable energy to the seniors in my riding, who are having a very difficult time paying for it. And I think it was more about winning seats in the Ontario Legislative Assembly than it was about their so-called pride-and-joy green energy program.

I cannot answer why the Minister of Energy and why the Premier and the Liberal campaign team chose to withhold documents from the Standing Committee on Estimates, but I can speculate, Speaker. I think it was because they didn’t want to be caught mismanaging our energy system at the expense of about $650 million, at a time when we’re asking teachers and doctors and every other public servant to take a wage freeze, which we support. But my gosh, it’s awfully hypocritical when you go out and—I’m going to send the Minister of Finance a shredder just so he can start shredding money—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member will withdraw that one word, please. It’s unparliamentary.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Withdrawn, Speaker.

I can’t answer why the Minister of Energy, the Liberal campaign team or the Premier thought it was a good idea to redact, omit and further hide additional documents after the Speaker’s ruling. But again, I can speculate, and again that’s why we’re here.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Please do.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: I think they don’t want to get caught, to the colleague from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke. I think they want to contain this embarrassment.

You have to understand that, after nine years in office, this government has become incredibly entitled. They find the opposition and any stakeholders or communities that are opposed to their agenda as irritants. They’re incredibly arrogant and incredibly entitled. That is why we have had to pursue this rare, unique and unmatched situation at the assembly.

This hasn’t been done in over a century, and it’s for good reason, Speaker: because any responsible opposition, like the one Tim Hudak is leading in the Ontario Progressive Conservative Party, is going to take its time, do its due diligence and make sure that we get this right. This is an extraordinary measure because these are extraordinary times.

You cannot just take $640 million and put it through a shredder and expect the people of Ontario to ignore that, and expect the people in the opposition to roll over. You can’t expect that; these are too-important times. We have to get our economy back on track. We cannot afford to mismanage more money.

Speaker, at a time when we’re assaulting rural communities, just like mine in North Gower, with wind turbine developments that aren’t wanted, this government decides to play fast and loose with the facts on a major power station in Mississauga and a major power station in Oakville.

Now, if we want to talk about people, like the previous speaker did from the Ontario Liberal Party, and putting people first, then she would understand that this decision by our caucus and the third party is an important one, because we have the right to get that information. We have the right to ask those questions. We have the right to speak on behalf of the people who feel so disenchanted by this government. Speaker, we’re going to continue to do that.

I would expect after today that this Liberal government will hand over those redacted, omitted and hidden documents and give them to Dr. Leone’s committee and send this immediately to the finance committee so that we can get to the bottom of it and find no more surprises, and know once and for all how much money they have wasted.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate?

Mr. Bill Mauro: As I was reflecting on my remarks and what I was going to say about this last night, Speaker, it occurred to me that it has been almost nine years to the day since I was elected into this place. I would almost always start my remarks on whatever the issue may have been that we were debating by saying that I’m pleased to rise and offer my comments on whatever the issue may have been.

I will tell you that I am not necessarily today pleased to rise and offer my comments, but I do feel, as a member who has been here for nine years representing my riding of Thunder Bay–Atikokan, that it’s almost incumbent upon me—and I would expect on other members in this place—to rise, even though I’m not pleased to do so. But it’s almost incumbent upon all of us to rise and put our comments on the record on this particular issue. The reason I say that and phrase it that way is because I see this, and I don’t—

Interjection.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): I believe that the government gave you the courtesy of listening to you.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: I’m just coughing.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): I’m sure you’re coughing. The rest of your party would want to listen to this serious issue, and I would appreciate a little decorum.

Mr. Bill Mauro: Speaker, I thank you for that. I would ask maybe next time that it occurs if you could just ask to stop the clock.

As I’ve said, I feel it’s incumbent upon all of us to put our remarks on the record on this particular issue. Now, the opposition—the Conservatives and the NDP—will not agree, but I see this issue as just completely one that is politically motivated. I know that they don’t agree with that. They’re on the record as saying they don’t, but both the Conservatives and the NDP are engaged in concert, I would say, in an exercise that I see as completely politically motivated.

Sometimes, when you come into this place, this being one of those days—and I say this with some reluctance—you have to sort of hold your nose and inject yourself into an issue that you would prefer not to. I thought, “Maybe I’ll just stay away and not be bothered with this,” but I don’t think that we have that particular choice.

The member who spoke just before me, Speaker, talked about how the electricity system has become too political, in her words. I would love to just use my 20 minutes speaking about the Conservative record when they were in government and the electricity system in the province of Ontario. I would love to spend more time reminding people about how, in 2002 or 2003, their attempt at privatization led to disastrous outcomes, and how they artificially capped the price on everybody’s bill that showed up at their door every day.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Point of order.

Mr. Bill Mauro: Stop the clock, Speaker.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Stop the clock. Point of order.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Speaker, I believe that the motion before the House is a contempt motion, amended twice. There’s an amendment and a sub-amendment. It is not about policies of a previous government or anything else. It’s about a contempt motion directed at the Minister of Energy of this government. I would ask that the member from Thunder Bay–Atikokan speak to that motion.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): I appreciate the point of order, and it’s duly noted. If I feel that the member has strayed too far, I’ll certainly inform him. At this point, he’s on the line.

Mr. Bill Mauro: Thank you, Speaker. As I mentioned, the member who spoke just before me referenced politically motivated electricity decisions, and that’s why I would remind people only that they artificially capped the price of electricity in 2002 and 2003 because they didn’t want to deal the issue of electricity pricing, and they were hiding the real price on people’s tax bills and not allowing people to see the real price on their energy bills that came to their house. I could talk to that for a long, long time and would love to.

Speaker, this is, as I’ve said, nothing more, in my opinion, than a personal assault—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Stop the clock again. The member from Renfrew, the member from Simcoe–Grey, if you want to talk out loud, I suggest you go outside, not here, not across the floor. Last warning.

Continue.

Mr. Bill Mauro: So as I’ve said, I see this as nothing more than a personal assault, which is why I feel it’s necessary to speak today on the integrity and on the character of a member of our caucus who’s been serving this place with distinction for over nine years. I see it as nothing more than that. It’s unseemly, in my opinion. Quite frankly, I think it’s distasteful.

We’re not talking about education here. I’ve listened to the other members talk about what we could have done with the money. I’d love to sit here and debate at length our record on education compared to the record on education—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Thunder Bay–Atikokan is drifting. Stay to the issue, and I won’t stop the clock on that one.

Mr. Bill Mauro: Thank you, Speaker, but clearly they have raised the issues of education and health care in their remarks, and I would expect the same latitude to address it. We’re a government that has hired 10,000 teachers, many of them new and young, newly graduated teachers—15,000 nurses. The list goes on. So we would love to have that debate at any time they’d like to and compare records.

Speaker, to be clear, this is a Conservative motion. They’ve brought it forward, but I want to address as well—I wasn’t here yesterday when the NDP spoke to this, but I was told that the leader of the third party made a remark about them seeking the truth. I’ve noticed now that they are sitting down there, Speaker; they are not coming forward, I guess some attempt to stay above the fray on this contempt motion.

But they clearly spoke to it, and I’m told the NDP leader said, “We’re seeking the truth,” which in my mind is a very clear and direct attack on the integrity of the member, saying the same thing, that what he’s done to this point is not truthful and that it is not fully transparent. So, in my opinion, while they’re attempting to stay above the fray—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): I will ask the member to sit down, and I will not stop the clock. In his reference to the third party, it’s within their ability to say they want to seek the truth. It wasn’t a personal attack on the member, as you stated. I’ll ask you to withdraw that. Don’t shrug your shoulders. Withdraw.

Mr. Bill Mauro: Withdraw.

Interjection: Thank you.

Mr. Bill Mauro: You’re welcome.

Speaker, I’m going to read the motion, if I can, just so that people who are interested in the issue know what it says:

“That the matter of the Speaker’s finding of a prima facie case of privilege, with respect to the production of documents by the Minister of Energy and the Ontario Power Authority to the Standing Committee on Estimates, be referred to the Standing Committee on Finance and Economic Affairs, which is hereby reconstituted as it existed on September 9, 2012; and

“That the committee shall be authorized to meet at the call of the Chair, and shall report back its findings and recommendations no later than November 19, 2012.”

And I understand now that one of the amendments is changing the date on that, I think, to November 23. So let’s sum up what they are suggesting and saying.

They are saying that at committee, the Standing Committee on Estimates, when they requested documents, they were not submitted to the committee in a timely manner. They are completely ignoring a ruling of the Chair, the NDP member who was the Chair of the Standing Committee on Estimates; they are completely ignoring the ruling of the Speaker that very clearly articulated that there are two very obvious and apparent competing interests here and that the minister was completely within his rights and his obligations on behalf of all of the people in the province of Ontario in the way in which he addressed the issue.

Now, Speaker, I’m going to read for you—I’ve got four minutes before we break here, but I want to read for you what the Chair of the Standing Committee on Estimates said in terms of the release of the documents—the timely release, or the release at all, of some of the information contained in there. This is what Michael Prue, the NDP member from Beaches–East York, who is the Chair of the Standing Committee on Estimates, said on May 16.

He said two things. He said the minister has the right to decline either giving that documentation or giving voice to that documentation during his answering of the questions. On its face, that doesn’t mean a lot until you hear the second part, which explains why he ruled that way.

Here’s what Mr. Prue, the Chair, said: “I would advise that I’m going to allow the motion to proceed, but I would also advise—and I think the minister,” that being the Minister of Energy, “being a lawyer himself, knows full well that he may choose to answer the question in such a way as not to prejudice the province in any way, and,” further, he goes on to say, “I would expect him to do so. That would be my ruling.”

So, Speaker, clearly the Chair of the Standing Committee on Estimates, as well as the Speaker, has acknowledged that there are two very clear competing interests here when it came to the submission of the documents at any point. Everybody gets it.

Now, here’s where we find ourselves. The minister subsequently has released and provided all of the documents, 36,000 pages, so here’s where we get to the point. Some of them have talked a bit about pieces being redacted. Speaker, my goodness. Commercially sensitive information should be released? Solicitor-client privilege should be released? That’s what they’re saying. I would find it interesting if members of the press gallery were here, and maybe next time we’ll see some motion from one of the parties opposite that’s going to say that the press gallery, when they do a story, are going to have to reveal their source to us. I don’t know where this goes.

Everybody understands that there are reasons for keeping some of that information away from public scrutiny. Everybody gets it. Here’s what I would say if you want to solve it: Step outside the legislative chamber, a member of either party, and make these same allegations outside of the confines of this chamber. Step outside and say that the Minister of Energy has not released all of the documents, when he says very clearly that he has. Step outside of the legislative chamber and say that he hasn’t done it. Not only has he done it, but he’s gone further than that.

Not required, he has provided a personal attestation to the fact that he has released all of the documents that were required. He’s done that. He’s done that.

Interjection.

Mr. Bill Mauro: Well, do it. We’ll look forward to it.

We’ve given the example of the press gallery—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): I thank the member from Thunder Bay–Atikokan. He will continue when this starts again at 10:30; he has the floor.

This House stands recessed until 10:30 this morning.

The House recessed from 1015 to 1030.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate? The member for Thunder Bay–Atikokan has the floor.

Mr. Bill Mauro: I’m pleased to continue today, Speaker, with my—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Forgive me; I have a point of order. The member from Nepean–Carleton.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: I know all members will be very excited to see that Jean-Marc Lalonde, from Glengarry–Prescott–Russell, is here. I just want to say a quick hello to the former member.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I guess I’m supposed to say that that’s not a point of order, but I would be remiss in saying the Speaker always acknowledges former members. We do thank the member for bringing that to our attention.

The member from Thunder Bay–Atikokan will have a few extra seconds to compensate for that wonderful introduction of Jean-Marc Lalonde.

Mr. Bill Mauro: Thank you, Speaker. I’m pleased to continue my remarks. I think where I left off before the break was that, in fact, the 36,000 pages, all of the documents, have been delivered, which leads us to the obvious question: Why continue with the motion? If the minister, with a personal attestation, has delivered 36,000 documents, which he says is all of the documents that were requested and delivered, why, then, go forward with the contempt motion? Because, as I said at the beginning of my remarks, it is nothing more than a personal assault and pure politics. It’s a Conservative motion, supported by the NDP; it’s nothing more than personal.

I also think it’s important for people that are interested in this particular motion—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): That’s better.

Mr. Bill Mauro: Speaker, I think it’s also important to let people know, who may be interested—I don’t know how many really are. None of the press gallery is here. I don’t know how many people watching this on television are truly interested in this personal, personally motivated motion. But what it has meant is the entire House—it’s important for people to know the entire House has basically been shut down. No government legislation is being introduced or debated. No private members’ legislation can come forward.

I know that all members here, all 107, short of cabinet, take great pride in being able to introduce private members’ bills on behalf of their constituents or on behalf of the entire province of Ontario. No committee work is going forward—all shut down for what? Completely—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Renfrew is warned—one and only.

Mr. Bill Mauro: Speaker, the member from Renfrew was warned before you were here. Now we’ve got a new Speaker and he’s been warned again. He’s getting multiple warnings. But anyway, that’s all fine.

No committees, no private members’ bills, no government legislation: This particular motion has shut everything down. It’s important that we share with people how long this contempt motion can actually shut this place down, because this motion allows all 107 members of the Legislature to speak for 20 minutes each on this particular motion—20 minutes each. Each amendment allows each of 107 members to speak for 20 minutes. There have been two such amendments. Two amendments times 20 minutes each is 40, plus 20 minutes each on the original motion.

Now, that assumes, of course—and I know members won’t like to hear this—that there are no further amendments put on the floor. Any member at any time can put another amendment on the floor, so each time there’s another amendment, another 20 minutes is allowed per 107 members of the Legislature. Clearly we’re in a situation here where the Legislature has been shut down. No relevant debate is going to take course on anything but this particular motion. It’s important for people who are interested in this to understand that.

Here’s where I go with that, and I want people in my riding to know that: 107 hours and growing. I’m going to make a prediction. I’m going to make a prediction today that at some point—what’s today? Today is September 26. I’m predicting that somewhere along the line here—I think it’s going to be the Conservatives but it might be the NDP; I’m not sure—before 107 hours of debate has transpired, one of them is going to stand and invoke a closure motion. It’s just a prediction. They’re going to invoke a closure motion, non-debatable. Nobody will get to debate the closure motion.

That will, at some point, end this, because I think they’re going to come to the conclusion that enough is enough. I think they’re going to do that.

What it will mean is that when they do it, it will mean that they themselves are shutting down debate on a motion that they brought into this Legislative Assembly, because I think at some point the light is going to go on for the opposition parties that they probably feel, “Okay, the jig is up. We’ve exacted what we’ve attempted to do,” and what they’ve attempted to do is nothing more than take a pound of flesh, publicly, in a very public way, in a very personal way, from an individual member of this Legislature. Today is September 26; that’s my prediction—

Mr. John Yakabuski: Point of order, Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Point of order, the member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Standing order 23(

i) prohibits a member from impugning the motives of another member of this House. What I just heard from the member from Thunder Bay–Atikokan does exactly that. I would ask him to withdraw that.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’ve been doing my utmost to listen carefully, over some volume, and I personally did not hear unparliamentary language and impugning motive, but I take the member’s concern seriously and I will listen intently to ensure that it does not take place.

I would also ask again, while I’m speaking, that people do not speak and that we bring the tone down. I’d appreciate that.

Member from Thunder Bay–Atikokan.

Mr. Bill Mauro: Thank you, Speaker. I want to congratulate the member for that interjection. He managed to stand in front of the cameras and get it all out without smiling. I’m not sure how he did it, but he managed to do that. I can’t stand and respond to it without smiling, because it was very interesting.

Anyway, I want to recapture: That’s my prediction. At some point, one of the Conservatives, maybe an NDP but—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): There are people I’d like to rein in, and if they would actually self-discipline themselves, we wouldn’t have this problem—including those who are not in their seats.

Mr. Bill Mauro: Speaker, I’ll just recapture—I’ve only got a couple of minutes left—what I think is going to happen here on this debate. At some point, the opposition, likely the Conservatives—maybe the NDP, but likely the Conservatives—will invoke a closure motion to limit debate. It’s a non-debatable motion. They will invoke it to limit debate on their own motion that they’ve brought into this House, because at some point I think they’re going to come to the conclusion that they can’t do anymore. They can’t exact a pound of flesh from an individual member more than they already have.

The point will have been made. It may be the wrong point to try and make. That’s just my prediction. It’s September 26. I hope I’m wrong. We’ll see where this goes, because on our side of the House, as I’ve said at the beginning of my remarks, I think it’s incumbent upon individual members to rise and speak to this. I’ve got 20 minutes on the amendments. I’ve got 20 minutes on the sub-amendment. We’ve got 20 minutes on the original motion. If there are further amendments, all 107 are allowed another 20 minutes, so there’s much to do.

This is really a serious issue. This is very, very serious. There will be casualties. There will be casualties as a result of this approach, but personally I don’t think it’s going to be the casualties that the opposition members may have expected. I think what you’re going to see is a bit of a recoil from members of the public, those who may be following this—and I’m not really sure how many are, but for those who are, I think there will be a bit of a recoil. My goodness, they’ll look at this and think, “Boy, what are these people doing to each other? What’s the cause? Why would they do it? What’s the result?”

If anybody is out there watching this debate, you would have to think that anybody who is seriously considering running for political office, whether it’s at the municipal level, whether it’s at the provincial level, whether it’s at the federal level, whether it’s as a public school board trustee—you’d have to think that anybody who’s giving any consideration to that, who is following this debate with any closeness, and I don’t believe too many are, would have to probably step back, pause and give some consideration or reconsideration to whether or not they really want to go forward with this, because the way that people in this chamber are treating each other, since I arrived here in 2003, is not getting any better.

Mr. Grant Crack: Point of order.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): A point of order from the member from Glengarry–Prescott–Russell.

Mr. Grant Crack: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Merci, monsieur le Président. C’est une grande journée pour moi aujourd’hui. C’est Glengarry–Prescott–Russell day. I’m very, very pleased to have six of the mayors and a number of members of council and other members from my riding here to witness a historic event here at Queen’s Park. I’d like to welcome them all up here.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I thank the member for his point of order. Indeed, it is not a point of order. I know that we do recognize our guests—except under these circumstances, we’re not doing introduction of guests. Since that wasn’t a point of order, they weren’t introduced.

It is now time for further debate. The leader of Her Majesty’s loyal opposition.

Mr. Tim Hudak: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for this opportunity to lend my voice, as the MPP for Niagara West–Glanbrook and the proud leader of the Ontario PC Party, about the breach-of-privilege motion that stands before the House today.

I want to begin by saying how utterly regretful it is that we have had to come to this point, to the point where a minister of the crown, somebody entrusted with billions of dollars of investments and taxpayers’ money, is on the verge potentially of being found in contempt of the very Ontario Legislature that he is here to serve, in contempt of his colleagues in his own party and the parties on the other side of the House, and thereby in contempt of hard-working taxpayers across this province.

It has not been, as I understand, since 1908—104 years ago—that we’ve come this close to finding someone, let alone the energy minister, in contempt of the Ontario Legislature. It should never have come to this, but it has. Taxpayers have been ripped off, potentially to the tune of $650 million. Documents have been buried, hidden from MPPs.

I know it has got to be a concern for the energy minister’s colleagues—their privileges were abused, just as they were for Mr. Leone, the member for Cambridge, or any of us in the Legislature—that documents were hidden from view. And it’s an ongoing concern: They continue to be hidden from view.

I won’t apologize for this for one minute, that the Ontario PCs are going to stand up for taxpayers, stand up for MPPs, and say, “No more.”

The sad thing is, it’s the Premier himself, his energy minister and his cabinet colleagues who are the authors of their own misfortunes, the indirect authors of the motion before the Legislature today—an extremely serious motion. It’s their actions, their choices and their ongoing deliberate decisions that have created this mess: a mess in the assembly, a mess for taxpayers, and a huge cost—again, up to $650 million that ordinary families and businesses are going to have to shoulder for decades to come.

Quite frankly, Speaker, listening to the debate across the way, they can’t blame the power plant fiasco, they can’t blame the jobs crisis, they can’t blame the debt crisis—they can’t blame anybody but themselves that we’ve come to this point.

Today’s motion isn’t simply about the government squandering hundreds of millions of dollars—although that is an important point—of burying information and hiding the truth to save seats to maintain a loose grip on power.

But importantly, too, as we consider the motion standing in the name of the member for Cambridge—this contempt motion before the House, based on the actions of the energy minister, the Premier, the Liberal campaign, is signalling to job creators, to investors, that the current government of Ontario is entirely incapable of being entrusted to manage complex files like the province’s $15-billion energy sector.

While they were busy burying documents, trying to save Liberal seats, that meant that they spent time on these distractions and not on the basics of providing reliable, affordable energy and ensuring we can create jobs in the province of Ontario.

There are many costs to the actions of the minister being framed by the contempt motion today. But let’s not forget the cost to ordinary, hard-working families, the 600,000 women and men who woke up this morning with no job to go to, who have seen their energy bills soar, who have seen companies vacate this province, because they took their eye off the ball to provide reliable and affordable energy to the province of Ontario and to fuel our economy.

So they seemed try every measure they were able to discover of keeping documents away from the MPPs on the committee, of keeping documents from you, Speaker, and members of the assembly. While the Ontario Liberals were focused on their own jobs, they forgot about the jobs of millions of Ontario men and women today, who can’t fathom that up to $650 million has been blown to save Liberal seats. It is going to cost us jobs and drive up hydro bills for average, hard-working families.

While the government was more concerned about digging a hole to bury documents and stalling on information about who made the order, why they made the decision and the true costs of cancelling the power plants in Oakville and Mississauga, tens of thousands of Ontario men and women lost their jobs. Hundreds of thousands more have sent out their resumés every day, over and over again, knocked on doors—can’t find a job in this stalled economy. One of the drivers is runaway energy prices, and a signal to job creators and investors—businesses today—that these guys can’t run the show.

They can’t handle their internal squabble and they can’t look out for a $15-billion energy sector that is a prime driver of our economy.

For the Ontario PCs, everything starts with creating good private sector jobs. Unfortunately, as the motion before us speaks to, the same can’t be said for many of the members opposite. This is Ontario, where energy supply has always been a strength; it’s been a competitive advantage. For 100 years, we had lower energy costs than competing states and provinces. That made beautiful cities like Brantford—where I come from—Niagara, Hamilton, the manufacturing heartland not just of Canada but of North America. This was an incredible strength.

With these types of ad hoc decisions made on the spur of the moment to cancel power plants for short-term communications advantages, they’ve now saddled us with among the highest rates for job creators in Canada and North America. We’re on a path to having the most expensive energy of any state or province.

This is the tragedy: that they have turned what has been an historic strength for our great province into a major shortcoming. Now we see with the conduct—just trying to get some basic documents about how they arrived at these decisions—they have completely politicized the energy process. They put Liberal seats ahead of jobs for regular, hard-working Ontario families.

So do you want to know why we’re bringing this forward, Speaker? Well, we’re standing up for hard-working taxpayers. We’re standing up for the rights of MPPs to do the job that they’ve been entrusted with; for the people of the province of Ontario, the voters, to bear scrutiny on the government’s decisions—and that’s of all parties. It’s incumbent upon the Liberal members, too, to hold their ministers to account.

And then, when a committee of the Legislature votes to see these documents, to see them try to bury them, and still we have—what?—2,000 documents that have been obscured—I guess the technical term is “redacted,” basically hidden from view. Hopefully, in the time this debate takes place, those documents will be forthcoming. The House leader, I did hear, said that they’re going to make all the documents available. About 2,000 have not been available yet, so hopefully we will pursue that.

Let me address another important aspect of this, too. As this very motion was being prepared by Mr. Leone in the event that the Speaker’s order was not followed, the energy minister made an announcement that seems to reflect the type of thinking that resulted in the Mississauga and Oakville cancellations at the cost of $640 million. The minister announced a new deal with TransCanada to build a plant in Lennox and then, I guess, to ship the energy, to transmit it, from eastern Ontario to the southwestern GTA.

I have concerns that some of the elements behind this motion—about short-term communications, political interests ahead of economic interests, the interests of taxpayers or those of MPPs—are reflected in that decision as well.

Between Oakville and Mississauga and the Lennox plant, we already have the Pickering nuclear generating station, we have the Darlington station, let alone the Lennox generating station itself, which is Canada’s largest oil- and gas-fuelled electricity generating station, and, I know from the comments of the member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke this morning, a tremendously underutilized station as well. If it was indeed in the best interests of taxpayers to send the hydro from eastern Ontario to Mississauga and Oakville, through all those current generating stations, why then not use the capacity of the Lennox generating station to produce that power instead of this deal, Speaker?

Why Lennox? It’s an important question. This Premier, his minister, his campaign team did not even attempt to explain. This motion, then, would give the finance committee the availability, the opportunity to ask those questions on behalf of taxpayers as well.

Sadly, a cynical pre-election seat-saver had nothing to do with delivering reliable, affordable power to the people of the province, which is one of the most important points in governing and one of the most important jobs of the energy minister, who chose to bury documents instead of taking on that important duty.

Sadly, in the procedures we’ve seen that we’re debating in the Legislature today, the documents that have come before the House as a result of the contempt motion coming from the committee, this government’s decisions have turned natural gas into a four-letter word. This is an important supply of power in our province. It has enormous potential. We see what can happen in the shale gas not too far from our borders, beyond Lake Erie, and this government’s political decision-making has turned natural gas into a dirty word. We disagree.

The $640 million, $645 million, $650 million, whatever—when we get all the documents we’ll find out exactly what it is, but between $640 million and $650 million—could have built two Highway 7s. It could have extended subways here in the city of Toronto. It could have built hospitals, like those in West Lincoln, in Cambridge and other parts of the province.

Interjections.

Mr. Tim Hudak: Fergus, Milton.

Not only have they abrogated the rights of members to see documents, even in their own party, not only do they continue that by trying to bury documents—it still happens today with 2,000 unavailable documents. The complete waste of $640 million that they could have invested in subways, in hospitals, in MRI machines and in our highways to move our economy forward is an incredible tragedy.

In addition, a very good reason why this debate should continue in the finance committee for further investigation: Confidence in investment in this province of Ontario is on the line. Why would somebody who can invest in another state or province invest in Ontario if they think that big decisions like these hydro plants are made by campaign teams, are made on the whim of the Premier, if they think they can change, after six years of heading in one direction, to the opposite six days before an election, or whatever it was? What does that do for investment in our province?

What does it do for the long-term job creation picture? The economic vitality of our province is on the line. That’s why this is so important.

Our commitment to holding this government accountable over its mismanagement of the energy file is evident by the fact that our inaugural Paths to Prosperity white paper, the very first one, was about affordable energy, ideas to keep prices under control for entrepreneurs, businesses, industry, households and taxpayers alike, to ensure a reliable, sustainable system that brings jobs back to the province of Ontario and so families can afford their bills.

Speaker, I commend the members in the PC caucus who have brought forward some very passionate, serious speeches here today on this historic debate. Former President Harry Truman once said: Don’t give them hell; give them the truth, and they think that’s hell. That’s what it’s all about.

The truth of the matter: Between $640 million and $650 million wasted to save Liberal seats; an ongoing attempt by the energy minister and those in the Premier’s office to hide documents from MPPs of all parties; 300,000 manufacturing jobs lost and no sense of contrition, no apology from the government for this abuse of taxpayers’ dollars. They shrug it off.

They say, “Well, we got a few plans right; we got a few plans wrong.” The incredible arrogance, the lack of contrition and the lack of understanding of the violation of the rights of MPPs and taxpayers and the impacts on the vitality of this great province of Ontario is beyond them. We’ll stand up for it. We’ll fight each and every day to say, “No more. It’s time for a change in course.”

We have tremendous potential in this province. We want to see that potential unleashed: a private sector economy that actually leads Canada again, world-leading, driven entrepreneurs, companies that I would have compete with anybody around the world and not lose a wink of sleep because I know that Ontario workers are among the most productive worldwide. They’ll win every time.

I’m proud of the folks here in the assembly. I’ve known many in all three parties for many, many years. I know they’ve been sent here for the right purpose. I know where their hearts are, and I know in their gut, in their heart, they know the actions of the Premier are wrong, they know the actions of the energy minister are wrong, and they know a signal needs to be sent that we cannot conduct business in the province this way.

Speaker, throughout this debate and in the time forward, the Ontario PC Party will stand up for those taxpayers who are struggling, paying more and more and seeing so much money wasted; taxpayers who believe, and families who believe, that better days are still yet ahead, that this great province of Ontario can actually lead again, that we will have a strong manufacturing sector, a strong resource sector, a strong services sector, that we can build this province and grow.

How do we do that, Speaker? We do that by making Ontario open for investment again, sending a signal of confidence, sending a signal that when someone is entrusted with the reins of a file as important as energy, a Premier who’s supposed to watch over those files, that, first and foremost, it will be in the interests of bringing jobs to our province, in the interest of taxpayers in the province of Ontario, not the interests of the Ontario Liberal Party and the campaign team, but to actually make decisions on files like energy with a single focus of making Ontario grow and lead again, to bring jobs in our province.

Speaker, we don’t apologize for standing up for those principles. We’ll fight for those principles each and every day, principles that say energy policy should encourage investment into infrastructure, the best rates and the best quality for the families who have to pay the bills, a sensible energy policy that looks to the long term, that recognizes these investments, our infrastructure that lasts from 20 to 100 or more years, billions of dollars that require responsibility in judgment. A look to the long term: What will this mean for jobs?

What will this mean for investment and the future vitality of our economy, not short-term political interests to advance the careers of some Liberal campaign team, no matter who they have to clear aside to get their way?

An energy policy that’s about affordability and reliability and that builds on strengths in our province in nuclear energy, in hydroelectricity, that builds on the potential of natural gas, but put in place in willing communities—sensible decisions for the long term, and not the short term, and an end to unfair, huge subsidies for feed-in tariff programs that are imposing projects on communities that don’t even want them and are driving up prices to the taxpayer.

Affordable energy; lower taxes; a regulatory environment that says we’ll get behind businesses to help them create jobs again and get out of their way; modernizing labour rules to bring them out of the 1940s and into the 21st century; infrastructure like subways—not ripping up roads—that will break gridlock and help people get to work and spend time with their families: That’s what this is about, Speaker. Those are the principles ahead—and a government, sadly, that after nine years has lost its way, that sets all of these considerations aside for short-term decision-making based on communication advantage, coupled with trying to bury documents.

We are proud to stand up on behalf of taxpayers, stand up on behalf of MPPs, to say this: Put the documents on the floor. Let’s move forward and let’s build an energy system that will power jobs in our province of Ontario, not elect more Liberal members.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Further debate? The Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The member for—

Mr. Jim McDonell: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): A point of order: the member from Glengarry—

Interjections.

Mr. Paul Miller: Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Yes.

Mr. Jim McDonell: Thank you, Speaker. I just wanted to rise and to introduce my much older brother, who is in here with the mayors from Prescott, Russell and Glengarry today. I just want to welcome them to the House. Thank you.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): As the member may or may not have heard earlier, that indeed is not a point of order, but we definitely welcome your guests here, particularly your brother, and—stop the clock.

I also would thank all members for their patience during these particular moments under a very serious debate. I also remind the members that we’ve been relatively respectful and quiet during this debate. I expect it to stay that way, and I will act to make it that way.

The Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities, with new time.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: Thanks, Mr. Speaker. The member opposite closed by saying, “We don’t apologize.” Maybe that’s a very good place to begin. I don’t think his party does apologize.

Having come from a minority who lost jobs, I’m a little more hypersensitive than some other people, maybe, than I should be, having lost jobs, having grown up in a country where being gay at 14 or 15 makes you a little sensitive. Sometimes I hear attitudes that I think are just poorly chosen words, opposite, about that.

When I watched the debate on Bill 13—well, I’ll choose my words carefully here—it was clear that a lot of members opposite didn’t have the kind of sensitivity to create the kinds of schools and safe places we did.

When I watched the member from Newmarket–Aurora launch a campaign on the McVety show—someone who has said things that destroy the self-esteem of many young people—

Interjections.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: I don’t use that language, even though I think people are wrong, because the language we use is important. It is important. While I may have profound disagreements, I may be uncomfortable with the language and attitudes about people like me—and some of the people that some of the members opposite associate with—I should treat you with respect. I shouldn’t allow you to live in a place where some human characteristic that you have means that you’re implicitly thought lesser of because of some others.

Interjection.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: You know, sir, I did not interrupt you, and I would like the same courtesy.

Many of us in this House come from a municipal background: Ottawa West–Nepean, Leeds–Grenville, Nipissing. One of the differences, and I think we should learn, and there’s a lot of object lessons today for us here—the first thing I was taught by an older member of city council was, “Glen, whatever you do, no matter how passionate you get about something, you never ascribe motive to another city councillor or the mayor. Never assign motive or ascribe motive.”

Part of that, in most legislative councils, is that we know each other. We know Chris Bentley as passionate, as someone who has devoted his entire life to law and justice and upholding the law: 25 years as a passionate lawyer, donating his time, working on civil litigation, working with folks as an Attorney General, as a Cambridge and University of Toronto educated professional. This man is everything that we aspire to be as MPPs. This is a man who has put in great sacrifice. We know this man is not contemptuous of this Parliament or the law.

It is in the knowing that all members here know each other. I’ve become quite good friends with the House leader of the New Democratic Party. I was up in his constituency; we know each other. Ms. Munro from York–Simcoe has become a personal friend; I know her to be a woman of extraordinary character. The reason that we have this extraordinary privilege in this House, to act almost with the weight of the law and a court on each other’s reputations—the reason that we are called honourable members and we have this exceptional privilege is because we know each other.

In the same way that I was wrong and apologized, and I have now gotten to know the member opposite and have respect for him—because we now find out we have personal friends. His roommate is a great friend of mine who speaks very highly of him. He’s a young gay man who talks very highly of his passion and his sensitivity, and I think it is in that knowing that we exercise these extraordinary privileges.

What I find so profoundly sad is that I’m part—let me just go back a second. Anne Swarbrick is a friend of mine; she never mentioned what Bob Nixon did. We all knew Anne Swarbrick. Anne Swarbrick left this place and went to run the Toronto Community Foundation. She continues her personal commitment to public service.

It is so that we treat each other honourably—we don’t just assume innocence when the member for London West actually signs those documents and says, “I’ve given you everything. I’ve complied with the law.” That is his personal integrity and honour.

We are asked, Mr. Speaker—and you are asked—to measure in the knowing, in the familiarity. In that knowing, we have to exercise extraordinary powers. I do not believe that there is a single member opposite who actually believes that the member from London West is in contempt of anything. As a matter of fact, you know that when people pass on, we all stand up and pay tribute to them. When new members come in, as they often joke, having been a rather recently minted MPP, we all stand up and applaud for them. That is the tradition of the House that, in my mind, is on the line here.

We are held to a higher standard. We all know Mr. Bentley is an honourable man. He is a lawyer; he is a man who has taken great sacrifice. We know his wife, Wendy; we know the family. He has not done anything wrong. He has complied with the Speaker’s order, and we know him to be of character. And that is the way. So, people—

Mr. Randy Hillier: Just following McGuinty’s orders, I guess.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: The member from Lanark–Frontenac–Lennox and Addington is saying he’s following the Premier’s orders. That is both insulting and offensive and is a great disservice to the seriousness of this process, especially coming from a member who blocked the Sergeant-at-Arms, undermined the authority of the Speaker with the member from Haldimand–Norfolk to block the proper execution and removal of the member—who truly was contemptuous of this House—from being removed under order of the Speaker. This is the man who is now lecturing Mr. Bentley and this party. I cannot ever imagine the member from—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I am going to ask the member to stay as focused as he can under the circumstances. I understand the to-and-fro and the emotions that are involved in this, but I’m going to ask all members to just tone it down and stay focused, please. Thank you.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: Mr. Speaker, I think I’m very focused on it. The member for London West has always respected the Speaker, he has always respected the law, and because you know that, you have the responsibility to act responsibly.

Imagine your reputation. Imagine you were as honourable a man as Chris Bentley is, without the benefit of an impartial adjudicative body. This is no time for partisanship, because you have dropped the clothes of partnership and you have put on the cloak of judgment, and with that comes a much higher standard of responsibility.

Mr. Speaker, you know and I know there is not an iota of truth, there is no evidence base that Mr. Bentley, the member from London West, has done anything but uphold the law and, more than the law, the finest traditions of this House.

Can you imagine if we had held that same standard to the behaviour of some of the members opposite, who banged desks and disrupted and undermined us and the Speaker, who actually really interfered with the process of this House? We didn’t. I’m very proud to be of the party of Dalton McGuinty and Bob Nixon.

I want to say something to my friend the House leader and my friend over in the New Democratic Party: I think this is something we share. I think of the tradition of Tommy Douglas and Stanley Knowles as great parliamentarians. If they were sitting in this House, they would not support this nonsense. They wouldn’t. I appeal to your better nature to not descend into this kind of nonsense and character assassination where someone doesn’t have the benefit of a lawyer, doesn’t have the proper adjudication.

The members opposite spend a great deal of time intimidating in many ways, in my

interpretation of it, by referring to the horrible consequences that they were prepared to bring down by abrogating and not upholding the proper traditional standards of this House and the treatment of them. Because the only thing that Mr. Bentley, the member for London West, has to fear is an inappropriate execution of a judicial process. We can debate power plants, we can debate financial policy, we can debate all kinds of things about whether governments did things that are right or we have good policy, but this isn’t about that, and when you confuse that, you do a great disservice to this House.

This is about someone’s reputation, about their conduct as a member, about their conformity and respect for the law and the process.

I listened carefully to the member opposite, and I would make a personal appeal to him, because I do think he’s a man of good character and I think he’s a fair-minded person. I think if he was, upon reflection, asked, “Would you like to be like Mr. Hepburn from my own party, years ago, who rather knee-jerkily moved a motion of censure in this House which was successful and which hurt a member opposite? Do you really want to carry on and be the third in the tradition of Mr.

Charlesworth, who wrote a personal letter to a member here and was called before the bar down here and humiliated as a journalist?”—that’s Victorian. That’s back with buggy whips and Jack the Ripper. This is something out of our past. We certainly have evolved, Mr. Speaker, to a higher standard of law and civility. We have human rights charters that—

Mr. Gilles Bisson: It was King Edward.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: Sorry, King Edward and the Edwardian period. I have no doubt that I make mistakes sometimes. Mr. Speaker—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order, please.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: You know, I can tell my appeals to the better nature of my friends in the NDP obviously fell short if we’re down to debating which king or queen was in charge at the time. It must be cold comfort to the member from London West, who knows how seriously his reputation is held by the members of the third party if that’s their response to an appeal from me, who considers you a friend, to behave in an adjudicating way.

I don’t think we understand the gravity of this. One of the things that we have as a great privilege in this House is that we can stand up and say anything about anyone without fear of litigation, charge or court. We cannot be charged in civil court while we sit here. That is an extraordinary privilege. As a matter of fact, there are very few people, and almost no one in Ontario, who hold that kind of privilege.

I have to tell you, where this is going and where this House is descending to is deeply sad. I think it will give people of great character in public service, of Mr. Bentley’s stature, great pause before they ever think about seeking elected office if their reputations are so easily open to being made fodder in a partisan political game. It is particularly sad, too.

Then we get into these, quite frankly, somewhat fallacious arguments around confidence. The Leader of the Opposition, the member for Niagara West–Glanbrook, made the statement that somehow, you can measure the impacts of this by investor confidence, that money will run out of this province. Well, Mr. Speaker, that’s true: Taxes are 18% lower than they were under the party opposite. Direct foreign investment: That money that he’s talking about has actually got a measure; it’s called direct foreign investment. It is at an all-time high. We are second only to California.

We have passed Massachusetts, we have passed New York, and we have passed Illinois. We have passed all the other large-scale regional industrial service economies. We attract more private capital each and every month in this province than we ever have before.

So let’s take his standard of capital investment as confidence in the competence of this government and the efforts of the member from London West, the Minister of Energy. By his own standard, the market continues to vote in favour of this government economically, because people put more capital here than anywhere else in North America save California. I’m happy to take all of these standards that they keep throwing out that have absolutely nothing to do with the matter—even the standards they throw at us that have absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand.

It just saddens me. It saddens me because we are not just taxpayers, as the party opposite says. We are not just consumers; we are actually citizens, and we forget that. My grandmother would always get upset when people were referred to as taxpayers. She said, “I don’t have a taxpayer certificate; I have Canadian citizenship.

I came halfway around this world and I sacrificed a lot.” She used to tell me about what it was like growing up in eastern Europe, where there was no organized government, where her brother and sister were killed because they were pressed into armies and where there was no civil authority, no reliable courts, no Legislatures and no justice. She said, “The taxes I pay”—and she paid taxes. She had nine kids. Her husband had a stroke. She was the only person raising them. She used to talk about the civility. When I chose to go into public service, she was really impressed.

She said, “Our family for generations could never put someone in elected office because there was no office to elect anyone to.” There were no courts. Then we pay a relatively small price. I am more affluent than my grandmother’s dreams. I have more money to spend. Every time my father used to complain about his taxes, my grandmother used to look at my father and say, “Ron, you are richer than anyone else ever in our family. You have health care, you have everything. Show a little bit of respect.”

We are a generation that is so privileged, and we have such important challenges that should be occupying the House at this time. This is not, in my mind, what the people of Ontario want us to be doing. They want us to be working on the seniors’ bill. They want us to be working on jobs. They want us to get back to work.

All of us are sent here. We have to make our case to tens of thousands of people—in my constituency, about 160,000. Our character is constantly being judged. I have gone through an election every year I have served in this House. If I can’t pass the good-character test of my constituents, I don’t have the privilege to serve here. Well, Mr. Bentley has passed that character test over and over again. Mr.

Bentley, the member from London West, doesn’t just represent Chris Bentley here; the member from London West represents a whole bunch of Londoners who see him as one of them, who sent him here to represent their character. Mr. Bentley has never done one thing to make them embarrassed or ashamed, and I wish we could all say that. I can’t. But motives are important. All of us have family. All of us have been victims of horrible things said about us that we can never prove.

The member from Newmarket–Aurora was quite rightly offended, and I was really shocked when I saw a horrible letter circulated about him that was unsigned, that no one takes responsibility for, because how does he defend himself? If we don’t have his back—and this party stood behind him and said that was wrong. I would like to know one day who did that, because he has a family, he has a reputation and he’s a person of good character. He shouldn’t have to put up with that, and we were all rightly outraged. So how do those same people play that kind of poker game with the member from London West’s reputation? How do you do that and hold yourself to that standard?

It would be gracious if you did what was asked last Friday, which was to resolve this between the House leaders. That lasted five minutes. Mr. Speaker, we were asked, and you asked us as a government to try to work with those folks. We expected that was going to be hours of conversation. We didn’t expect this was easy. This is difficult, one of the hardest things. All of us who have been mayors—the member from Nipissing, the member from Leeds–Grenville, the member from Kingston and the Islands, the member from Ottawa-Nepean—all know, those of us who have been in municipal politics, that you have these tensions.

You want to tell the public everything. Having sold the hydro utility, I was constantly called on the carpet to tell all, but you’ve got to protect the value and assets of those utilities, which means you can’t put proprietary information out there. These power bills were at the very centre of proprietary information.

The party opposite, when it privatized and deregulated power, dropped the value of the assets by several billion dollars, which created a liability. So we don’t have to take great lessons from them on protecting the value of public assets. That’s obviously not a part of it. You have to be transparent. This is the people’s money. This is the people’s Legislature. It’s not ours.

Interjections.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: They’re all getting a bit chippy now.

My point was this, Mr. Speaker, my point was simply this: You made mistakes on hydro. Some of your hydro policies were colossal failures. We have made mistakes. Some of the things that we have done have been failures. You don’t build a province on every success. You try things and they don’t work out. So let’s keep some perspective here, and a little humility. Why don’t we try to behave to at least the standard of a small town council and not ascribe motives? If there isn’t evidence of wrongdoing—and there really isn’t evidence that there wasn’t compliance with the Speaker’s order or with the orders of the House.

It takes a huge amount of time to assemble 36,000 pages of documents that are legally sensitive. I have looked at them. I don’t see a lot wanting. I don’t see much substantive that’s missing. Both the president and CEO of hydro and the minister have signed off on those. Unless we have evidence to the contrary, it is our responsibility to take their word as honourable people. Mr. Andersen and Mr. Bentley are honourable people. We should take their word. We always have. Why would we change that now? We have an opportunity to be better people here. We really do.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Point of order, go ahead.

Mr. Jeff Yurek: I’d just like to announce that I’ve got some clients here from the ODSP office, down from St. Thomas, who are here to see the minister and make a statement to the media. I’ve got Dave Kerr, Wendy Lafrance, and Richard Sitzes, and on top of that, other community volunteers and organizers here for the visit.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): It being close to 11:30, this House stands recessed until 3 p.m. this afternoon.

The House recessed from 1124 to 1500.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate.

Mr. Frank Klees: Speaker, it’s not often I would refer to the Toronto Star in my speeches in the Legislature, but I think it’s appropriate that I begin with this quote from the editorial in the Toronto Star today: “Instead of trying to convince skeptical Ontarians that these decisions were mere ‘missteps’ and things aren’t as bad as they seem, McGuinty and his energy minister ought to come clean and issue a frank apology for what is, at root, a political fiasco driven by electoral considerations.”

Speaker, the issue before us is a very serious matter, and you ruled in your ruling on the point of privilege that was put forward by my colleague Mr. Leone that there is in fact a prima facie case of privilege.

Now, for the benefit of my constituents who have been following the debate here, I want to refocus this debate and remind us all what this debate is about, because I heard from members of the government over the last two days references to intentions to impugn the personal integrity of the Minister of Energy, many suggestions that somehow, because we are raising this important point of privilege and pointing out what the implications are to our ability to do our work as members of the official opposition whose job it is to hold the government accountable—I want to make it very clear that no one in this place has even suggested that the personal character of the Minister of Energy should, in any way, be questioned.

No one has questioned his past performance as Attorney General. No one has questioned his career as an attorney. We are here to speak to the point of privilege that you, sir, as the Speaker, ruled was in fact a legitimate point of privilege for the members of this House.

I want, for the record and for those who are observing this debate, to read your conclusion: “The Standing Committee on Estimates was unquestionably entitled to request the documents sought from the Minister of Energy, and in the end the minister had an obligation to comply with the committee’s call for those documents. The committee did not accept the minister’s reasons for withholding the documents and persisted in its demand during an extended period of time.

“I am therefore satisfied that a prima facie case of privilege has been established.”

Speaker, we want to thank you for that ruling because at the heart is the ability of this chamber, the members of this Legislature, to do their job.

I want to also read into the record from O’Brien and Bosc, where there is a distinct differentiation between a point of privilege and contempt of the Legislature: “It is important to distinguish between a ‘breach of privilege’ and ‘contempt of Parliament.’ Any disregard of or attack on the rights, powers and immunities of the House and its members, either by an outside person or body, or by a member of the House, is referred to as a ‘breach of privilege’ and is punishable by the House.

There are, however, other affronts against the dignity and authority of Parliament which may not fall within one of the specifically defined privileges. Thus, the House also claims the right to punish, as a contempt, any action which, though not a breach of a specific privilege, tends to obstruct or impede the House in the performance of its functions.”

Speaker, the reason we are debating today is not because of any individual’s character or reputation; it is specifically because a committee of this Legislature attempted, for months, to get important documents that it felt were important to its work, and the Minister of Energy repeatedly refused to produce those documents. The committee relied on this House and the rules of procedure to have access to that and, unfortunately, that’s what it took.

We would not be here today if the Minister of Energy had simply complied with the request of that committee months ago and provided the documentation that involved a multi-billion-dollar transaction in this province. Multi-billions of dollars are at risk on the green energy policy of this government. The Minister of Energy chose to hide, not to disclose, the documents. That’s why we are here, and I want the people of this province to know that’s why we are here.

For any member to stand in their place and suggest that somehow this is a personal attack shows, once again, what this government’s focus is, and it’s not transparency and it’s not accountability; it is all about putting up a shield between what the public deserves to know and what it wants the public to know. What are they hiding? That’s the question.

This is against the backdrop of a file I know quite well, and it’s called Ornge. Speaker, for months we have been conducting hearings on the Ornge scandal in this province, and what has the government done? At every turn, we were obstructed from access to information. The minister repeatedly told us she didn’t know anything about it, and yet eventually, after a great deal of effort, after demanding that documentation be produced for that committee, what did we find out? We found out the minister knew full well.

There was document after document that disclosed that there were briefings of the minister, the Premier and staff from the top down to the bottom. And guess what the government did? They did nothing, and multi-millions of dollars were wasted in the health portfolio.

Now we have a very consistent demonstration of a minister of this government who, rather than be transparent and rather than work with the committee of this House, chose to use every excuse not to disclose that documentation.

I repeat again, Speaker—and to those who are observing this debate, understand what members of this government are trying to do when they suggest that somehow we are disrespecting honourable members by simply following the rules—had the Minister of Energy produced the documents for the committee when they were asked for, we would not be here, and the Minister of Energy would not be facing the prospect of this House voting a contempt motion and declaring and demonstrating to this House that we, as elected representatives in the Parliament, representing our people, our voters, the taxpayers of this province—that they still have responsible people who will represent them and not take no for an answer from a government that wants to hide important information.

It’s about preserving the credibility and integrity of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario—that’s why we are debating this—not a personal attack against any individual member. It’s about what the minister, in his capacity as Minister of Energy, chose to do, and that is to not disclose information.

I had a very interesting meeting with someone whom, over the years, I grew to respect highly. His name is Walter Kimmerle. He was the president and CEO of Berkim Construction. He was an individual who came to this country as an immigrant; chose Canada, as he told me, because of the prospects of a democracy that would be stable. From time to time he would call me, because we emigrated from the same country, his family and mine. He and my father were friends, and they would often talk about why they chose the difficult path to immigrate to this country.

They both knew what it was like to live under a government that was essentially a dictatorship and essentially held its citizens in contempt, and they made the decision to choose Canada and Ontario.

Walter would often call me, and he’d want to talk politics. I’ll never forget the last time I saw him—because he passed on at the age of 80 last April. The last meeting I had with him, he said, “Frank, I want to give you some advice. The next election you go into, your party should have as its motto ‘Accountability and transparency for Ontario.’ And I’ll tell you why.

The more I see what is happening, whether it’s at a provincial level or whether it’s at the federal level of government, the very institution that should be there to protect citizens is more interested in preserving its power rather than representing the people who have elected them. If that’s the direction that we’re going to go, Ontario and Canada will be no different than the country we left.”

He said, “We’re taking for granted that we have a parliamentary institution that has as its core the cornerstones, if democracy is to function effectively, of accountability and transparency.”

Speaker, over the last number of months those words have become incredibly insightful. I think they’re very, very relevant to this debate. I’ve heard a lot of talk about partisanship. It’s interesting how, over the last number of months, every time we in opposition raise an issue about how the government is not doing its job or we expose a lack of oversight, we expose a lack of accountability, we challenge the opaqueness of how the government is doing its business, we are accused of partisanship. How many times have we heard the Premier stand in this place and say, “Well, in answer to the member, of course that’s a partisan attack. We have the public interest at heart”?

I raised a point of privilege with you, Speaker; I don’t think you agreed with me at that time, but maybe eventually, one of these days, you will on this issue, because I believe it is impugning motive to a member in this House when someone is allowed to stand in their place and say, “What you’re saying is partisanship and what I’m doing is in the public interest.” I still fail to understand how an honourable member is allowed to get away with that.

Look, all of us are here. We may not have the same political views, we may not have the same philosophical views, we may disagree on how we get from here to there or how we would serve the public interest, but because we disagree I don’t believe gives anyone in this place the right to suggest that our motive is wrong. Our motive is what is in the best interest.

I will accept that the Premier and every member in the government has pure motive, but I will also reserve the right to disagree with how they get there, and I will also disagree, right to the last ounce of debate in this place, that what the Minister of Energy did for months on end by ignoring the will of the committee that was asking for information—I will disagree that the minister did the right thing and acted in the public interest. The public interest is always based on accountability and transparency.

The minute that any member of this House or any member of any government or any bureaucrat at any level of government chooses to suggest that the public is not mature enough to absorb the information that is all about them, we are on the brink of losing the very essence of what democracy should be: open and transparent and accountable. Government is there to serve the people. Government is not there to set its own standard of performance. We have a responsibility, the official opposition, to ensure that we can go back to our constituents and tell them what we did to hold the government acc