Manitoba Hansard — 1 December 1988 (Sitting 89, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-89

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

G-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 89 - 1: 30 p.m., THURS DAY, DECEMBER 1, 1988. ISSN 0542-5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME CONSTITUENCY ALCOCK, Reg Os borne ANGUS, John St. Norbert ASHTON, Sieve Thompson BURRELL, Parkew Swan River CARR,James Fort Rouge CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights CHARLES, Gwen Selkirk CHEEMA, Gul zar Kildonan CHORNOPYSKI, William Burrows CONNERY, Edward Hon .. Portage la Prairie COWAN, Jay Churchill CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose du Lac DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell DOER, Gary Concordia DOWNE Y, James Hon. Arthur DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Emerson DRIEDGER, Herold, L. Niakwa DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon.

Riel EDWARDS, Paul St. James ENNS, Harry Lakeside ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood EVANS, Laurie Fort Garry EVANS, Leonard Brandon East FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo FINDLAY, Glen Hon. Virden GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa GRAY, Avis Ellice HAMMOND, Gerrie Kirkfield Park HARAPIAK, Harry The Pas HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland HELWER, Edward R. Gimli HEMPHILL, Maureen Logan KOZAK, Richard, J. Transcona LAMOUREUX, ll<evin, M. l�kster MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood MANDRAKE, Ed Assiniboia MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris McCRAE, James Hon. Brandon West MINENKO, Mark Seven Oaks MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon.

River East NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlotte Hon. Gla dstone ORCHARD, Dcnald Hon. Pembina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Ve rendrye PATTERSON, Allan Radisson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gilles Springfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI, Bill lnterlake WASYLYCIA·LEIS, Judy St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, December 1, 1988. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Bob Rose (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker , I beg to present the petition of the Winnipeg Canoe Club , praying for the passing of

an Act to Amend

an Act to Incorporate the Winnipeg Canoe Club . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for Native ' ) Affairs): Mr. Speaker , I have a ministerial statement which I would like to make. I have copies here for distribution. It gives me great pleasure to announce that an agreement in principle has been reached for a $10 million advance to the five Indian bands involved in the Northern Flood Agreement. As you are well aware , Mr. Speaker, prior to the election , our Premier (Mr.

Filmon) made a commitment to the five Indian bands to meet with them as soon as possible to begin the Intensive work needed to initiate the flow of funds under the agreement. As a result of those discussions, I am pleased to inform the House , after 11 years of long and arduous negotiations, an agreement in principle for this interim payment has been reached . This agreement, I may add, was achieved as a result of the positive and constructive environment established between the Government and the chiefs of the five bands .

I look forward to this continued relationship which we have been so successful to forge with the chiefs . The $10 million interim payment is subject to \ a mutual agreement with the bands based on p appropriate terms and conditions which will determine the final overall monetary responsibility of all parties to the agreement . These funds are an integral part of 't a settlement to compensate the bands for the impacts of northern hydro development . It represents a major breakthrough in these discussions which have been ongoing since 1977 .

These funds are an integral part of the settlement to compensate the bands for the impacts of the northern hydro development . It is my hope that these funds will assist the bands to broaden their economic base, improve the infrastructure of their communities and provide the employment opportunities for people of the North . *

(1335) At this time, Mr. Speaker, I am arso pleased to announce the appointment of Mr. Paul Jarvis as provincial senior negotiator for the Northern Flood Agreement. Mr. Jarvis brings to this position an extensive and impressive background in resource management and engineering . Acting on behalf of the Province, Mr. Jarvis will be entering into negotiations with the federal Government , Manitoba Hydro and the Northern Flood Committee . He will take a lead role in negotiating a fair and equitable settlement of Manitoba's outstanding obligations with all the parties . Mr.

Speaker , he has a wealth of experience in both the public and private sectors . Mr. Jarvis is president of P.E. Jarvis and Associates, a management and technical consulting firm. He has served as Deputy Minister for the provincial Departments of Energy and Mines , Natural Resources and Northern Affairs. In addition , Mr. Jarvis gained valuable experience for his new appointment as vice-president of Corp·orate Planning for Manitoba Hydro. ·· Mr. Speaker, the appointment of Mr.

Jarvis will be a cohesive factor needed to work toward the overall resolution of Manitoba's commitment to the bands at Nelson House, Norway House , Cross Lakes, Split Lake and York Landing . I am confident that the parties will ensure a full implementation of the agreement within a reasonable period of time. Let me conclude, Mr. Speaker, by saying one of the prime aims of this Government is to build a partnership with the people of the North. I regard this interim settlement as a tremendous opportunity to begin to build and strengthen on the achievement of which this Government has accomplished so far.

However, we are all aware that there are many changes or challenges ahead before we can reach this goal . The commitment to compensate the northern bands is long overdue . I will do everything possible, and I know I can count on "the support of all Members of this Assembly to ensure the negotiations achieve a satisfactory conclusion for all parties. Thank you . Mr. Herold Driedger (Niakwa): It gives me great pleasure to be able to respond to this statement that was made by the Minister just now. The fact that an agreement in principle ~as been reached, an amount has been determined upon, is very encouraging .

I believe the Minister referenced that the Government is stating that the achievements the Government has accomplished are laudable . I thi~k one thing that should be mentioned before we proceed any further is that 11 years of long and arduous negotiations were involved in this . This is not something that occurred just in the past six months . The negotiations have been in progress for a long time, both on the part of the bands involved, both on the part of the federal Government and both on the pijrt of all, of the provincial Governments .

Now, it i$ -ii'lso important to recall that even if conclusions can be reached in a six-month term, generally these conclusions are based upon M 0 emorandums of Understanding or perhaps a decision based upon different people making a commitment to 3660

Thursday, December 1, 1988 getting a conclusion . That , I think , is what this Minister • has indicated to us today . The commitment was made to reach a conclusion and essentially all people who are involved in this must make that same kind of agreement to come to a conclusion, that they mu1,t be able to make a negotiation commitment that wiH enable them to go to the next step . It is also important to recognize that in this particular principle here there are other bands in other areas of the province also subjected to similar kinds of either compensation requests, which have been ongoing .

Some of the occurrences or some of the events may have gone back many, many years , and it is only now that there is a collective will to try and address some of these needs. I trust that spirit of cooperation and the spirit of commitment that has been expressed here by the Minister today will also be continued to address the needs of the other outstanding negotiations that are waiting for some resolution as of this moment. •

(1340) Mr. Elijah Harper (Ruperteland): I would like to thank the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) responsible for the Northern Flood Agreement. I would like to tell this House and also the Minister that the agreement in principle does not mean anything until the agreement is finally finalized . I may say that when we were in Government we had been proceeding with $10 million advance negotiations just prior to the elections , as if we had an agreement in principle , and unfortunately we were unable to come to an agreement .

I might advise the Minister that we also had achieved an agreement in principle with the federal Government on the Treaty Land Entitlement which has not been acted upon. As a matter of fact, it was reneged on. This $10 million agreement in principle has still to be resolved by the bands themselves and this area is going to be a difficult task in getting the bands to settle in areas where a finality is reached . This is an area that I am sure the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) will be having · difficulty in reaching .

During the Hydro debate, we had asked the Minister responsible for Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) as to the position of Manitoba Hydro in respect to a Northern Flood Agreement, and we were not really totally advised of the direction the Government was going . As a matter of fac;t, when we were in Government , we had a two -pronged approach . One was to settle , item by item, issues coming from the band . As a matter of fact, we settled the Nelson River fishermen . We settled the Nelson .fishermen at Norway House. That was settled out, and also the Footprint Bridge and Nelson House were settled.

Those were as a result of the item -by-item approach that we took . In terms of taking the whole comprehensive approach to settle the entire agreement to put a quantum on the total settlement is something that is going to involve a tremendous amount of research and undertaking .

It is something that the Indian bands that are part of Northern Flood will have to take into cons ideration because this agreement , if a finality is to be achiev ed as a result of this $10 million advance , I may say th at if is going to take ma_ny years to settle , and I tha nk the Minister for ·annou ·ncing this agreement in principl e. I wish to support flis initiative, an initiative that we started .

I hope also that he addresses many of the other communities which are not part of the Northern Flood Agreement plans - South Indian Lake, Thicket Portage , part of the river system , the Nelson House community, the Cross Lake community - those areas that the Minister has responsibility for to make sure that those other people , their concerns and needs are as well addressed. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Would the House grant leave to revert back to Presenting Reports by Standing and Speci al Committees? (Agreed) PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mr.

Harold Gilleshammer (Chairman of the CommiltH of Supply): Mr. Speaker , the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again . I move , seconded by the Honourable Member tor Swan River (Mr. Burrell), that the report of the committ ee be received . MOTION presented and carried. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS BILL NO. 49-THE PUBLIC WORKS AMENDMENT ACT Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Government Services) introduced , by leave, Bill No. 49, The Public Works Amendment Act. •

(1345) INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions. may I direc t Honourable Members ' attention to the public gall ery where we have, from the Glenlawn Collegiate , ninety Grade 11 students under the direction of Mr. Al Thompson. This school is located in the constituen cy of the Honourable Member for St. Vital (Mr. Rose). On behalf of all Honourable Members , 1 welcom e you here this afternoon . We also have with us in the publ ic gallery , from the Fort Alexander High School, eighteen Grade 11 student s under the direction of Mr. Don MacMillan.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourabl e Memb er for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik) . On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here thi s afternoon . 3661

Thursday, December 1, 1988 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD AIDS Education Pamphlet Distribution Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): My question is to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) . Toda·y has been · proclaimed World AIDS Day. There is presently only · one solution to this very serious medical and social problem, and that is prevention . While we have made great strides in increasing public awareness of this tragic disease, educational programs are still sadly lacking in this province . The reality is that 50 percent of all teenagers are sexually active, with fewer than half using any form of prevention at all.

After months of waiting, we were very pleased yesterday to receive a copy of the AIDS pamphlet . Mr. Speaker, I have had the opportunity to review it. I would like to commend the Minister for the fine job done by his staff . The pamphlet is not only informative but it is also straightforward and honest . It dispels many of h the myths about the spread of this terrible disease. IJ But now that we have the pamphlet, it is very important that it reaches as many people as possible . My question to the Minister is this : how and to whom will the pamphlet be distributed so that maximum distribution may be achieved?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I thank my honourable friend for his encouraging comments on the AIDS pamphlet. We are hopeful that it will remain in individuals' possessions . That is why we put a hardcover on it and attempted to make it a more permanent pamphlet so that it is for use by more than one individual. To answer the distribution question, the Department of Education and my colleague, the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach), is assuring the distribution of the pamphlet throughout the school system .

Within the Department of Health, the distribution includes our regional offices throughout the province . Physicians and cli.nics and other public health facilities will have access I). to the AIDS pamphlet. We believe we have an adequate number to meet the demand that we foresee , based on previous demands for the pamphlet. AIDS Preventiion Programs Village Clinic Funding Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): With a supplementary to the same Minister , it costs this province $82,000 to care for and treat an AIDS victim .

The Village Clinic has been waiting nine months now for some word from this Government about a request for $50 ,000 to fund its AIDS prevention project . When is this Minister going to recognize the benefits of health promotion and prevention? When will he inform those who work at the Village Clinic that they will get this very necessary funding? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : My honourable friend asks a good question basis one of the organizations or one of the avenues through which the province is providing funding for AIDS education and AIDS prevention .

The Village Clinic, in terms of budgetary vote, has received a 24-percent increase in funding from this Government over the amount budgeted last year. That additional funding can be used by the Village Clinic for purposes of AIDS education. They have made specific requests for an outreach worker . That specific request was not acceded to. However, within the budget increase, I have indicated that they have the flexibility where, if they find outreach workers to be the most important new direction for them to ·take, they have that flexibility within their budget allocation . Mr.

Carr: That does not sound to me like good news for the Village Clinic in its request for additional funding. •

(1350) Coordination Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): What plans does the Minister have to make sure that the fight against AIDS and its spread in our community is coordinated? Does he have a plan and will he share it with us? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): My honourable friend indicates it does not sound like good news for Village Clinic, with a 24-percent increase in funding, budget year over budget year. That is a funding increase that organizations throughout the health care field would be delighted with, and is far beyond the increase that we have made available to other institutions .

In addition to that funding to Village Clinic, which is indeed supplemented by federal funding as well, the province has undertaken a rather ambitious campaign across the province in terms of the approval of six new staff positions , specifically in the regions, to assist throughout Manitoba with education and prevention programs for all Manitobans throughout the province . We, as I have indicated by tabling yesterday , are sending copies of the AIDS pamphlet to my honourable friend. We have reprinted the AIDS pamphlet .

It took longer than what I was satisfied with, but I think my honourable friend has already indicated he believes it will be an effective pamphlet, and that was part of the delay . In addition to that, we intend to undertake a rather ambitious media campaign early in the next year. Mental Health Care Rideau Park Amalgamation Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): With a new question to the Minister ot Health (Mr. Orchard) . Yesterday the Minister finally . .gave us some indication of what this Government ·rntends to do to coordinate the very serious problem in this province's health care system .

We were anxiously awaiting to see some of the details but, less than a day after the unveiling of his master plan , ~e hear speculation out of Brandon that consideration is being given to the amalgamation of 3662

Thursday, December 1, 1988 Rideau Park and the Brandon Health Centre, something that was not mentioned in his master plan . Such a move will likely affect the quality of psychogeriatric care for the patients who are currently at Rideau Park. Js the Minister considering such an amalgamation of health care services at Rideau Park and the Brandon Health Centre? ' - Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, the Rideau Park circumstance would have been an ideal area for honourable friends of the Liberal Opposition to take more than a half an hour to discuss the Manitoba Health Services Commission $1.4 billion budget, because I simply want to tell you that the situation at Rideau Park has been under negotiation with the unions involved . There are several and that is the problem . It has been somewhat of a disappointing arrangement that was facing us when we assumed Government.

Regardless of the outcome of the union negotiations , there will be 110 denigration of patient care and psychogerlatric quality · care at Rideau Park because, if my honourable friend is aware, that Rideau Park facility is downtown in Brandon. It is not part of the Brandon Mental Health Centre complex. It operates with a staffing and a philosophical mandate which is dedicated to improved psychogeriatric care for those residents. There will be no diminution of psychogeriatric care for those residents, regardless of the outcome of our negotiations . An Honourable Member: Hear, hear! Readmission Process Mr.

James Carr (Fort Rouge): I am glad to hear the assurances and reassurances from the Minister because, as he well knows, the kind of geriatric services available at Rideau Park are much different than those at the Brandon Health Centre . There is some concern In the Brandon community that through amalgamation there will be a loss of quality of service to those patients who may have to be readmitted . Will the Minister tell us if it would be necessary for a readmission process should that amal1;1amation go through? *

(1355) Hon. Donald . Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker , the Rideau Park Personal Care Home has, when I visited it some 10 or 12 weeks ago, at that time had a full patient complement . That full patient complement is --there on a permanent basis . That is their home and any indication that my honourable friend is making that those individuals who are currently residing at Rideau Park would be moved to the Brandon Mental Health ·centre is absolutely fearmongering on his part. There is no substance to that . Those residents are in their new home and will remain there . Job Losses Mr.

James Carr (Fort Rouge): We know that Ministers in this Government do not like Question Period because every time we ask a good question, they accuse us of of fearmongering . There is concern in the City of Brandon that an amalgamation of those two facilities could result in the loss of jobs of some . Will the Minister today in this House give his guarantee that there will be no loss of jobs in Brandon due to this amalgamation of services? · Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker , my Honourable friend talks about not wishing to face Question Period .

If my honourable friend had a broader understanding of the Rideau Park issue . something that could have developed during the debate of the Manitoba Health Services Commission estimates instead of taking a mere 30 minutes to pass the entire 1.4 billion budget, he would get full and complete answers and not constantly be having to have partial answers given in the time constraints that are imposed by Question Period . The whole question that he asked previous to this one about readmission to Brandon Mental Health Centre is a foolish question, and that is what I am pointing out to my honourable friend.

If he had an understanding of the circumstance at Rideau Park, he would not ask that kind of foolish question , and that foolish kind of a question does nothing but cause anxiety in my opinion amongst those residents. That anxiety is certainly not necessary . Now, Mr Speaker, if I could - Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Order . AIDS Pamphlet Distribution Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker , yesterday on late newscasts, it was projected to have 10 million people affected by AIDS in the world and 50 ,000 in Canada .

I think, notwithstanding any partisan politics, all of us are absolutely challenged by those projections in Manitoba - and in Canada and the world. I am pleased the United Nations has declared the day. I have been willing to be positive about some of the positive announcements of the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) , whether it was regarding mental health yesterday and some other issues but, quite frankly , I am rather disappointed in the answers given to the previous questioner on this very important issue , Mr. Speaker .

I do not believe the Government has a strategy on AIDS in terms of prevention, and I would like to ask the Minister what is his strategy to get this pamphlet out to the street kids. There are 1,000 to 3,000 street . kids in the City of Winnipeg who are not necessarily attending school, will not drop into the Department of Health's office, and many of them are using drugs, unfortunately, and that is the greatest source now of transference of this very serious disease between our young people in our Province . I would ask the Minister what is his strategy to deal with that. 3663

Thursday, December 1, 1988 Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend is well aware that a number of agencies deliver services to the environs , that those same youth he is concerned about-and legitimately so concerned about-are on the streets, the areas in which they are on the streets . The Village Clinic and others have the pamphlet and have the ability to provide that pamphlet to any of those youths at any time, Mr. Speaker, and that of course is one of the reasons why Government, ours as well as the previous administration, provides funding to those kinds of community delivery service agencies . •

(1400) AIDS Prevention Programs Village Clinic Funding Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker , we appreciate the Government is providing the same amount that was in the previous budget on f k the Village Clinic . But, Mr. Speaker, this situation has t P developed much more in the last six months than anybody ever expected and there are thousands of kids on the streets faced with this disease. There have been six youths in the last three weeks who have tested positive at the Village Clinic.

Why has the Minister not approved the budget for this year after nine months for the Village Clinic, and why would he not agree to extra preventative street workers to go out with the street kids to deal with this problem on the streets at their level, to prevent this disease rather than just dealing with it in the same way as he has in this House in the last five months? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr Speaker, last year's Estimates for the Department of Health had an approved funding for Village Clinic of slightly over $342,000 .00 . This year, Mr.

Speaker, contrary to the information my honourable friend just put on the record, the budget proposal is over $426,000 .00. Now, Mr. Speaker, within that budget, there is the ability for flexible use of those funds by ,. the executive and by Village Clinic . My honourable friend makes the case that things have changed dramatically in the last six months , and I realize that is something that my honourable friend would like to use as a reason for backing the demand for increased funding . But, Mr.

Speaker, we have significantly increased the funding to Village Clinic, as well as increasing the funding throughout the Department of Health in terms of providing all regions , Winnipeg included, with additional resources to reach those in risk and to reach people who need education and information on AIDS . That represents a significant increase in budget that we have dedicated towards the · AIDS education program in this provin _ce. Now, Mr. Speaker , we will always have the argument as to what is sufficient. and certainly I cannot indicate that we are overfunding AIDS education.

Neither was the previous Administration, but we have dedicated considerable additional resources to AIDS education and funding. Outreach Workers Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): I do not want to get into an argument of bureaucratic rollovers of budget year over year. Mr. Speaker, there is a serious health problem on the streets of Winnipeg, and it is dealing with the youth who are dealing with drugs, unfortunately , in our communities. Mr. Speaker, there is a projection that there will be 700 kids affected in the next three years if somethjng is not done.

My question to the Minister of Health, in the interest of the human suffering and also in terms of the very, very important cost realities of the Department of Health, does it not make more sense to put community outreach workers on the streets where the kids are to deal with this problem where it is at, Mr. Speaker, rather than paying for it three years later both in terms of human suffering and also in terms of the tremendous health care burdens in costs? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, that is a valid proposal that is currently being advocated by the Village Clinic, and I have indicated to my honourable friend that we have provided a significant increase in their budget this year. They have the flexibility within that budget to do just that .

If that is the most pressing need as assessed by the Village Clinic people, by the administration of Village Clinic, they have the flexibility within their budget to put those very outreach workers on the street addressing and discussing with those very high-risk individuals that my honourable friend has identified and making them aware of the dangers of drug use and shared needles and the dangers they incur if they practise unsafe sex. Mr.

Speaker, that flexibility is there and , if it is the pressing problem that my honourable friend believes, then Village Clinic has the flexibility to deliver that program and we have provided the additional resource that they can do that. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I know the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) is not suggesting the Osborne clinic, the Village Clinic, cut the nurses ·in their offices so they can put out outreach workers. I know you are not talking about cutting the people who go into the schools and work with the education system . We are not talking about redeployment of a lot of resources .

My question to the Minister of Health is, does it not make more sense to put community outreach workers with the clinic and with the community to deal with the 3,000 kids who potentially are using drugs unfortunately? To deal with the potential of some $30 million to $60 million that will be required in the -health care budget three or four years from now in terms of this tremendous epidemic, does it not make better sense for the Minister of Health to p~t those resources that are needed in the communi.\l,' · clinic , get onto the streets and start dealing with the kids? Let us start preventing this ·disease .

It is tragic in human terms; it is tragic in terms ef cost runs for the Health Department . Mr. Qrchard: Mr. Speaker, that is why we have increased the budget this year, not only the Village 3664

Thursday, December 1, 1988 Clinic but indeed provided additional staff resource for education throughout the Province of Manitoba through Regional Services. My ho;iourable friend is making what he considers to be a very valid point, and I cannot disagree with the general thrust of what he is saying. But we have increased the funding as I have said now for the third or fourth time, and the flexihility in funding is there to meet the most pressing need, as the executive of Village Clinic foresee it.

They have an extensive volunteer program, because certainly within their budget they do not operate their program without considerable volunteer effort. That volunteer effort may well be more appropriately used to reach those street children my honourable friend has mentioned . Village Clinic has increased resource and the flexibility to do that . Tender Proce88 Unfair Hiring Practices Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Connery) .

We, on this side of the House, have been repeatedly told from the Government benches that theirs is an open and clean Government. Yet yesterday in Estimates, the Minister and his staff admitted that not all service and consulting contracts are handled by tender call or proposal call . Will the Minister explain to the House how a Mr. Don Burdeny was issued a consulting contract without the benefit of <;lue process? Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of the Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): Mr.

Speaker, when I first got into office, one of my concerns and the concern that has been raised by the Member for Selkirk (Mrs. Charles) over the quality of water in the Assiniboine and Red Rivers that flow through Winnipeg and eventually to Selkirk and the terrible conditions that they are in, we felt that a study very quickly to get us started on where to go as far as river clean up. We commissioned Mr. Burdeny to do a study on rivers in the City of Winnipeg. ~on Burdeny Hiring Mr.

Harold Taylor (Wolseley): Will the Minister of the Environment explain just what direction he received from the Premiers' Office to hire Mr. Burdeny's - consulting firm in this fashion, to the detriment of due process and to the disbenefit of other legitimate consulting firms? Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of the Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): Mr. Speaker, I resent the insinuation that the Member puts into Hansard . We have consultations with a lot of people before we do things, and we are looking for good support people . I will talk to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) , I will talk to Executive Council.

We have a lot of different people who we will consult with when we are looking for expertise.- (Interjection)- Yes, we have even talked to -the Member for Wolseley on some things. Mr. Taylor: Mr. Speaker, on a further supplement , can the Minister tell the House why favoured treatment has been given to Mr. Burdeny in that as a private consultan t. he was allowed to attend the recent CC REM Conferenc e of Environment a!Jd Resource Ministers as a delegate while he was only a private consultant? Why is it that Mr. Burdeny cootinues to have unfettered use of the Minister 's own office for his private use? Mr.

Connery: Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne and Hous e Rules prevents me from expressing myself as to what I think of the comments of the Member for Wolseley (Mr. Taylor). I have had- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please . Order! Not only Beauchesne's and House Rules, but me included . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Connery: Mr. Speaker, when Mr. Burdeny was doin g his report, we had some conversations in our office . Since that report, Mr. Burdeny does not have the use of my office . *

(1410) Winnipeg Police Racism Allegations Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): My question is for the Attorney-General (Mr. Mccrae) . Recently, a member of the Sikh community in Winnipeg made complaints about the treatment he received from the City of Winnipeg Police and that incident was brought to the attention of the Attorney-General in this House. Now, regrettably , another Sikh family has raised concerns . The allegation by the Jawanda family is that the husband, wife and six-year-old child were all taken into-custody, separated from each other and interrogated in a hit-and-run accident investigation in Winnipeg.

No charges were laid and it now appears that there was little basis for the allegations . Mr. Speaker , regardless of the merits of the case, the allegation that a six-year-old child was separated from his family, interrogated and shown handcuffs by police is extremely disturbing. My question is, is the Attorney-General aware of these allegations and has he had any discussions with police officials with respect to doing an internal investigation? Hon. James Mccrae (Attorney-General): I will get a report on the matter, Mr. Speaker, and report back to the Honourable Member. Race Relations Training Mr.

Paul Edwards (St. James): I thank the Attorney General for that commitment . Again for the Attorney General, what if any specific race relations training is given to police officials at the Winnipeg Police Academy? Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General): I will get the specific details for the Honourable Member. 3665 (

Thursday, December 1, 1988 Maintenance Enforcement Hours of Service Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Again I thank the Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae) and look forward to the responses. Finally for the Attorney-General, last week, I asked him to look into the use of an answering machine by the Maintenance Enforcement Branch. I asked about the use of an answering machine at the Maintenance Enforcement Branch to take calls from distraught women. He said he would look into it. Today, the answering machine is still in operation and the ' Maintenance Enforcement Branch does not take calls between 12:30 and 4:30.

Is this an acceptable level of service to the Attorney-General and , if not, will he immediately investigate this frustrating lack of service for this very vulnerable group in Manitoba? Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General): Mr. Speaker, certain problems present themselves when we are • dealing with sensitive family issues. The answering service the Honourable Member refers to has nothing whatever to do with any lack of financial or human resources in Maintenance Enforcement offices.

Some of the problems the Honourable Member would be referring to coming over the telephone lines would be confidential in nature so that a decision was made that client information should no longer be given out over the telephone. So the answering machine does allow the-these are very busy offices, as the Honourable Member knows. These Maintenance Enforcement offices allow staff to look after Maintenance Enforcement work that they must do, and there are times when people can call the office and speak with Maintenance Enforcement designated officers and others.

So the question the Honourable Member raises does not have to do with lack of resources. It has to do with the confidential nature of the kinds of inquiries coming forward . The Honourable Member is talking lack of service . Trapping Industry Compensation Mr. Elijah Harper (Rupertsland): My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Penner). As the Assembly knows, the current mild weather in northern Manitoba has delayed the trapping season and is causing hardship for many of the trappers and their families.

Also, in view of the increased cost of living from hydro rates, food, telephone and now milk prices which trappers face, will the Minister now consider introducing a special compensation program for the trappers this year similar to the drought relief programs being offered to farmers? An Honourable Member: Hear, Hear! Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): I certainly sympathize with the diffic'ulties ihat the trappers of northern Manitoba are facing this year.

The deep snows and the late frosts have certainly added a dimension to their activities this year that they have not previously experienced in recent times. I would suggest to the Honourable Member that most of the support that has been shown to prairie farmers has come from the federal Government and I can certainly, if he wants me to, take up this issue with the federal people and ask them if there is any kind of support mechanism that could be structured that they could make use of. Trappers' Association Grant Mr.

Elijah Harper (Rupertsland): I think the Minister has a responsibility to the trappers in northern Manitoba. I also note that the new wildlife policy that the Minister refers to has not been relea.sed publicly. Can the Minister explain why the grant to the Trappers ' Association is the same dollar amount that it was for the past two years in light of the claim by the Minister that the association has new and exparided · duties? Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): Well, the grant to the Trappers' Association is similar · to what it was last year.

The weather, as a matter of fact, that we have been experiencing this year is probably very similar to the kind of weather patterns that we had last year in Manitoba, and I should probably ask the Honourable Member because he was probably quite involved in decisions when that same type of request might have come their way when they were in Government . I might ask him what their response was to that same kind of request .

However, that does not preclude us from entering into discussions with, as I said before, our federal counterparts to discuss whether there is any vehicle available to offer support to the northern trappers. Trapping Industry Compensation Mr. Elijah Harper (Rupertsland): Since the Minister has failed to actually financially assist the trappers in this province, I wonder if the Minister could tell this House when he will be committing funds to assisting communities affected by the drop in fur prices and by the mild weather.

Also, can I expect an answer from the Minister on the Order for Return I requested on October 21, concerning the Government commitment to the fur trade? Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): I should indicate to the Honourable Member that I have met twice in recent months with the Trappers' Association, and the Trappers ' Association has indicated at both the meetings that they are quite pleased with the efforts being made by this Government and my department to enter into a new era with them.

We are discussing numerous initiatives that can be used to diversify the [ncomes of the trapping community in Manitoba, in_cluding certain aspects of tourism that might be c6nsidered for them. I think that has added an element of excitement. I am somewhat surprised tbat the Honourable Member opposite will now start pointing fingers at us, saying that we are not doing anything for the trapping association when he in fact himseif had the opportunity in the past to do so. 3666

thursday1 December 1, 1988 Seniors' Transport Service Funding Mr. Bob RON (St. Vital): My question is for the Minister who advocates for seniors (Mr. Neufeld). It is most evident indeed that In this House and in the cofnmittees that there Is a dearth of talent in this Go~ernment to d_eal with problems that affect over 60 percent of Manitoba citizens, namely, the City of Winnipeg . Last Wednesday, during a question to the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr.

Ducharme), I alluded to brochures distributed by Senior's Transport Service in the South End of Winnipeg on behalf of the Tory MP elect for Winnipeg South, in which federal support for seniors ' transportation was pledged as priority . Mr. Speaker, my question Is, did this Minister follow this up with the MP elect for Winnipeg South in order to liaise with provincial and federal support to save Senior's Transport Service from imminent closure, thereby depriving thousa _nds of seniors of this mos t personalized, inexpensive, efficient service? •

(1420) Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister responsible for Seniors): The Member well knows that this is a commitment or is a responsibility of the Minister for Urban Affairs. I have indeed discussed with the Minister of Urban Affairs on numerous occasions the transport services to South Winnipeg . I mentioned to the Member last week that this is a small portion of the seniors of Winnipeg and of Manitoba . When we come up with a plan for Seniors' transportation for all of Manitoba and for all of Winnipeg, we will report to the House. Mr.

Rose: Perhaps it is time they did liaison with their people who make similar promises as their provincial people. Provincial Payment Mr. Bob Rose (St. Vital): A question to the same Minister, on several -occasions, information has come forward iil this- House referring to a pledge of support for Senior's Transport Service from five defeated provincial Tory _candidates . Has this Minister , the Minister who advocates for seniors , had contact with these devoted individuals to seek their support in convincing the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr.

Ducharme) of. the necessity .of maintaining Senior's Transport Service for the long run, which he says he is dedicated to in Estimates, or at the very least make the fina l payment of the $37,506 on that pledge? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order please . Order. Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister responsible for Seniors): The Minister of Urban Affairs has on several occasions when I have been here explained to the Member that the responsibilities that we were committed to have been met. The responsibility may well be that with the city.

The Minister of Urban Affairs has repeatedly told this House that the obligation to which we had committed ourselves have been met. Mr. Rose: My final supplementary to the same Minister . I certainly hope that on behalf of the seniors of this province and indeed all seniors that this Minister will shortly start doing his job to advocate for those peopl e which he said was his job. Last Thursday I asked this Minister a question abou t Senior's Transport Service . Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have o question? Mr. Rose: Yes, I do, Sir. Mr. Speaker: Would the Honourable Member kindl y put his question now.

Winnipeg Seniors' Society Mr. Bob Rose (St. Vital): At that time, Mr. Speaker . he admitted that he had not discussed th is transportation issue with seniors. My question is, can he tell this House what arrangement he has now mad to meet with these groups to discuss this matter , and specifically the group known as the Winnipeg Senior s· Society , as alluded to by the Minister of Urban Affair s (Mr. Ducharme) in Estimates? Hon.

Harold Neufeld (Minister responsible for Seniors): Again , I will repeat that the Urban Affair s Minister has indicated that he tias met all the commitments that this Government has made and has met all the commitments that the Members who ral) in the last election have made . It may well be that the responsibility to the city was not quite met but th responsibility of this Government has been met. W will continue , Mr. Speaker, to work for the senior s. Contrary to what the Member suggests , we have been working with the seniors .

We have been working for the seniors and we will continue to work for the senior s. Manitoba Hydro Rate Policy Proposal Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): My question is to the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro (Mr. Neufeld) . Mr. Speaker , Manitobans are getting used to ever increasing costs of living under this Government . Well, Mr. Speaker, the most recent example is a 6 percent increase, the 6 percent increase that Manitobans are going to face , the minimum 6 percent increase that Manitobans are going to face under Manitoba Hydro according to the chairman of Manitoba Hydro .

My question to the Minister is, the Manitoba Hydro Board has received a new rate policy proposal from Manitoba Hydro which includes a reclassification of the rate groups . Part of that paper recommends an increas e in the proportion of costs allocated to residential consumers, which would add an additional burden over 3667

Thursday, December 1, 1988 and above the 6 percent general increase that Mr. Ransom has referred to and the Minister has confirmed is likely, which would add another 2 percent or 3 percent to that figure . Can the Minister confirm that Manitoba Hydro is in fact looking at a revised rate

schedule which would add a burden to residential consumers? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister responsible for The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr.· speaker, for greater clarity , I will come back to the House with information on that question. Public Utilities Board Minister Intervention Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker , I can confirm for the Minister the fact is that Manitoba Hydro is proposing that, and , my follow-up question-it was a test, he failed . Mr. Speaker, my further question is to the Minister . The Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro (Mr.

Neufeld) has indicated that the Public Utilities Board will be setting the rate for Manitoba Hydro, that it is the Government's intention to present that to the Public Utilities Board . Given the fact that the Public Utilities Board has on more than one occasion recommended higher rates be charged to consumers, ii the Public Utilities Board makes that recommendation, will this Minister give the House the assurance , and the people of Manitoba the assurance , that he will Intervene to protect Manitoba consumers? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister responsible for The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr.

Speaker, just a few short weeks ago, there were a few Members in the House who wanted to get off of other Members ' mailing lists . I would like to get on the mailing list of the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie). He obviously gets information on some areas of my jurisdiction before I do. Specifically , to his question, Mr. Speaker , that is hypothetical and , when the time comes, we will deal with it. Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired . SPEAKER'S RULINGS Mr. Speaker: I have a ruling for the House .

Yesterday I took under advisement a point of order raised by the Honourable Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) respecting the words, and I quote , " My honourable friend may wish Government to make that suggestion ," spoken by the Honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) . I have carefully reviewed Hansard and, in my opinion, the Honourable Minister was simply making an observation . Those words do not , in my view, impute bad or unworthy motives to the Honourable Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock). The Honourable Member, therefore, has no point of order. NON~POLITICAL STATEMENT .$ · Hon.

Donald Orchard (Minister of He.Ith): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might ask leave of the House for a non-political statement . Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, December 1 has been chosen by the World Health Organization to be World AIDS Day, and yesterday I had the opportunity to send to each Member of the House a Manitoba Health brochure , pamphlet with a safety pin attached which ·is the logo that we have worked up in cooperation with the community to attempt to make awareness of AIDS more clear to Manitobans and the safety pin , or course, is to denote the symbolism of "pin your health on safety ." In other words - An Honourable Member: Good , we wanted to know what that pin stood for. Mr. Orchard: Yes, that is what the pin stands for. Mr.

Speaker , I know that all my honourable friends in this Chamber on both sides of the House, in both political Parties as well as my colleagues in Government, wish to have the greatest level of success in the worldwide battle against the AIDS virus and its infection of the general population at large . In that regard, we each have a role to play as legislators and as citizens of this province in making people informed and factually aware of the disease, its method of transmission , its risk to the general population, how to avoid the incidents or the individual infection with the virus .

I think in that regard , Mr. Speaker-and I thank my honourable friend, the Deputy Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr. Carr) . That was exactly the kind of succinct information we attempted to put forward in the AIDS pamphlet. I think that will be easily read and easily understood by all Manitobans who have access to the pamphlet, and I am certainly hopeful of the widest possible access to that pamphlet. In addition, we want to make the same simple message and direct message available in our media campaign .

I look forward to continued cooperation of all Manitobans who are involved in the battle against AIDS , from the professionals down to the volunteers who are assisting the people of Manitoba in this very, very important battle . Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr) have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): You read my mind, Mr. Speaker, before I even asked for it. What a Speaker! I would like to associate myself and my colleagues to the words of the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard).

There is nothing in this whole world which is more non partisan than disease . Disease has its own way of selecting its victims. In the case of AIDS, there is a way to control the spread of that disease. It is incumbent upon all of us in th!s Chamber and throughout the Province of Manit~lta to lend our efforts to making the education available to all Manitobans, particularly to young people, who are perhaps more vulnerable than most to the scourges of this disease . We have already said today that we congratulate the Minister aoo the Government on the publication of the pamphlet .

We think it is presented in such a way and in such language which is simple and straightforward, 3668

Thursday, December 1, 1988 but carries an important message to all those who will see it. Those of us on this side of the House would pledge our own efforts to assist in any way we can to ensure that indiv iduals do whatever they can in their own small way, and as legislators, to ma1<e 'sure that Manitobans are best informed . In this case, information is the best protection which is available to all vulnerable Manitobans . •

(1430) Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for Churchill have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): Mr. Speaker , I wish to associate myself with the comments by my colleagues from the Liberal Party and the Government with respect to the importance of this day today, World AIDS Day.

AIDS, like any emerging public health threat, provides a significant challenge to not only the medical profession but to all individuals to work together to find ways to deal with the threats of that particular disease as well as, more importantly, find ways to prevent that disease from occurring . As we stand in this House today, there are hundreds of individuals in Manitoba who are out talking to people , talking to their friends, talking to individuals , hopefully talking to young people on the streets about AIDS .

I think part of our comm endations today on World AIDS Day must be focused outside of this House and outside of the significance of the day itself , and onto those individuals who, not only today but day by day, undertake that work on our behalf . Hopefully , there are thousands of such ind ividuals across Canada , and tens and hundreds of thousands of individuals throughout the world who are undertaking that work on an ongoing basis because this particular public health threat demands that sort of attention. It is one of the major health challenges , as the Minister has indicated , that confronts us.

It cannot be won by any one individual; it cannot be overcome by any one Governmen_t ; it-cannot be overcome by any one nation . That is why today World AIDS Day is so important in that' battle. We associate ourselves with efforts all across the country and all across the globe with respect to · what is happening today to combat that disease. I hope that we are able today to focus not only on what is being done , but perhaps what should be done .

I know that the Minister will want to look at his own policies and find ways they can be improved, as every policy can, and build upon the strengths of that policy as they now exist .

I hope that World AIDS Day will lead us to the development of a national policy on AIDS that then will flow into perhaps a worldw ide policy on AIDS, because we are not going to be able to deal with this very significant worldwide public health threat on our own . ·1 am pleased to be able to associate the New Democratic Party caucus with the other caucuses who have acknowledged those challenges and , hopefully , when we have these sorts of days in the future on an annual basis, we will be able to remark upon the progress we have been able to make by working together and , more importantly , work ing with thos e individuals outside of this House to combat this disease.

ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move , seconded by the Honourabl e Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) , that Mr. Speak er do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty . MOTION presented and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with th e Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr.

Gilleshammer ) in the Chair for the Departmen t of the Environm ent and Workplace Safety and Health , and the Departmen t of Workers Compensation; and the Honour able Memb er for St. Vital (Mr. Rose) in the Chair for the Departmen t of Cooperative, Consumer and Corpo rate Affairs , and the Department of Finance . •

(1440) CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-ENVIRONMENT AND WORKPLACE SAFETY AND HEALTH Mr. Chairman, Harold Gilleshammer : I would like to call the meeting to order to consider the Estimates for the Environment and Workplace Safety and Health . We are on item 1. Administration and Finance . (

c) Planning , Research and Evaluation :

(2) Other Expenditures $62,300-pass ; (

d) Community Relations:

(1) Salaries $136 ,200-pass . 1.(dX2) Other Expenditures $59,200-the Member for Wolseley. Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): Just an explanation from the department on how that money is used . Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of the Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): It is the same thing , transportation , communication, supplies and services, other operating . Mr. Taylor: I understand the general things it is used for, but can I have an indication of what sort o f community relation prog rams are invo lved in this area ? Mr. Connery : You said community relations , or communications? Mr.

Taylor: Community relations , what sort of program s are there? Mr. Connery: Basically printing of broch ures and putting out for things that we are doing . Mr. Taylor: Right, but are there specific programs? For example , those brochures that the Minister refers 3669 J

Thursday, December 1, 1988 to, what is it in aid of? It is specifically , for example , telling people about the new Environment Act, or is there something about the hazardous waste disposal? I thought that came under the corporation itself . What I am trying to find out is just what sort of programs are you telling people about , and in what fashion? Mr. Connery: Anything to do with the Hazardous Waste Management Corporation would be funded under the Hazardous Waste Management Corporation . Other things to do with The Environment Act or whatever in brochures is the community relations that we have . Mr.

Taylor: Do the staff officials not have, Mr. Chairperson, a list of the programs for this fiscal year they are funding, the sort of message they want to get across? I understand generally how it is being used , but I am trying to find out for what precise purpose . Mr. Connery: A, for instance , would be the Radon Guide, similar to what we are doing in Workplace Safety with the water . We are going to be printing up some material to send out to people . An Honourable Member: About the lead? Mr. Connery: About the lead in water , yes. That is the sort of thing that is involved .

There is also a public registry through the library for Clean Environment material and so forth . Mr. Taylor: Thank you very much . I have no other questions in this area . Mr. Chairman: (1)(d)

(2) Other Expenditures $59,200- pass. (

e) Financial and Administrative Services :

(1) Salaries $509,800 - the Member for The Pas. Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): I want to know about the Affirmative Action Program within the department . Have you got quotas or targets established? J Mr. Connery: I think the goal in all affirmative action programs is to at least ensure that people in the affirmative action represent the kind of a balance that they have in society . While I said before , goals are kind of rather-I do not know how to explain it. Once you get to a certain point , you then want to quit the program . That is what I am saying.

If you set a goal and then once you achieve the goal, you quit the program is not what I want to do. If there is more than that through affirmative action, that is fine . Mr. Harapiak : You say you have no goals or targets, but have you been making any progress then in getting women and Native people and disabled and minorities into positions of, some of them , into management and some into other areas? Mr. Connery: I guess, Mr.

Chairman , when we get into the Civil Service and our Civil Service people are here, I would assume by the time the Opposition said was allocated to these depa rtments, that we wilf° be into Civil Service this afternoon and they have figures that we are prepared to make available to Members so they can see that progress is being made, so we can show them the figures . I think that is the appropriate place where we could do it for all of us. It is not just in Environment that we are concerned about with affirmative action . It is all departments in the Government and Crown agencies and in the private sector . Mr.

Harapiak: There has been a reorganization within the department. Has there been any reduction in Clean Environment staff in this area? Mr. Connery: For one thing , there . has been no reorganization . There has not been ·so ;· in that aspect , no. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pas_~.? . Mr. Taylor: I have one question and this question I will be asking in

Section (e)(2), the question applies to each

section . The question is, does this department employ warrants in which - I am not sure they understand the question , but a warrant being a certain amount of money set aside for operational and/or emergency purposes but which is not detailed in a budget and which is at the call of the officials and not the Minister? Mr. Connery: Nothing . •

(1450) Mr. Taylor: Nothing like that at all in any of the sections of this department? The question then is , if an emergency comes up and action is taken - we are talking operational activity now-beyond what is normally been budgeted for, how is this handled? Mr. Connery: It would either be funded internally , depending on how large of an incident it was or go back to Treasury Board . Mr. Taylor: Could the Minister just explain "internally funded " ? Does he mean taking from other accounts? Mr. Connery: On an interim basis and then go back to Treasury Board . Mr. Taylor: For a top-up? Mr. Connery: Yes. Mr.

Taylor: Thank you. That is the only question I have. Mr. Connery: Before we go on, Mr. Chairman, if the Member wants to know what we are doing in Community Relations an~ wanted a list of some of the things, those types of brochures , we would be quite pleased to give · it to him. Mr. Taylor: No. Mr. Chairman: 1.(e)

(1) Salaries , $509,800-pass ; (e)

(2) Other Expenditures, $136,400-pass . 3670

Thursday, December 1, 1988 Item 2. Environmental Management: Consists of activities intended to prevent environmental health hazards in places where people live, work or engage in their leisure time activities and to detect and eliminate any such environmental health hazards ; to prevent safety hazards in public places and ensure the 1 detection and elimination of any such hazards which do arise; to protect and enhance existing uses of the environment and to preserve long-term use and enjoyment options for future generations . (

a) Environmental Control Services:

(1) Salaries $3,000,900-the Member for Wolseley. Mr. Taylor: If we could get a little explanation, Mr. Chairperson , of the distinction of the roles between the Environmental Control Services and the Environmental Management Services . Mr. Connery: It is r_ather difficult. They are so close together that I have had trouble at times . The control is more-I should introduce Mr. Orcutt , he is the Director for the Control. It is licensing and so forth on the management side and inspection and so forth .

If we were going up to Hudson Bay Mining, for instance, to do a testing , it would come under Control. ii we are looking at, for instance, the hearings at Roblin-Russell , it would come under Management. That is the kind of distinction between the two. One is ,the licensing, and the other is the inspection and enforcement sector in the Environment Control Services . Mr. Taylor: Just to clarify, the hearings though that are being carried out for the potential potash mine in the Roblin-Russell area, would that not come under the Clean Environment Commission itself? Mr.

Connery: The Clean Environment Commission is under this department . It used to be the Clean Environment Commission could initiate hearings on their own. There was a change when the new Act came under it, took away some of the authority of the Clean Environment Commission where they did things on their own. Now they respond to the Minister, requests from the Minister, to hold hearings, and that is where they get. their-then they report back to, it would be the director in certain instances.

The director can make a decision on a Class I or Class II proponent, and a Class Ill of course, it comes back to the Minister for the Minister's decision. In the Class I and Class 11, if there is an objection, they can be appealed to the Minister . So in any Class I or Class 11, the Minister 's Office does not get involved at all because wtien you become that person who might have to make some adjudicative decisions later on, you try to keep at arm 's length . Mr. Taylor: So what you are saying is the Clean Environment Commission is not independent to the degree that it was.

It functions more as, if you would, a division of the department. Is that a correct definition? Mr. Connery: It is an advisory body. As you know, there are members on it and they have staff of their own . I think there are four or five staJf, permanent staff . Stan Eagleton is the chairman of it. The Clean ' Environment Commission makes recommendations to the Minister as to what they think are appropriate when it comes to licences and that sort of thing . They are all public reports . . Mr. Taylor: In that the Minister brought up the Class I and Class II licences, he is the appeal body for those licences?

Is that correct? Mr. Connery: Yes. Mr. Taylor: Thank you . In the case of Class 111, you have the ability to issue the licence without the benefit of the Clean Environment Commission recommendations? Mr. Connery: No, I would like to explain it. We would ask in a Class I or Class II proposal , the Clean Environment , if it was necessary to have a Clean Environment hearing, to conduct the hearings and make the recommendation to the director, which would be Norm Brandson, who is the Director for Management, and then he would make a decision .

If the proponent or objectors then were not satisfied with the recommendation, they can then appeal back to the Minister . But in a Class Ill , the Clean Environment reports to the Minister and the Minister makes the decision as to what to do. An Honourable Member: I understand that the hearings are obligatory . Mr. Connery: Yes, the hearing is obligatory, as it has to be at a Class Ill event . Mr. Taylor: You are saying for a Class Ill , it is obligatory to have the impact assessment conducted and cannot be waived by the Minister? Mr. Connery: It has to take place . Mr.

Taylor: The last point, just to clarify, Environmental Management Services is licensing, and was there j ' another function in there? " Mr. Connery: Yes, there is licensing and monitoring and setting of standards . Mr. Taylor: And the setting of standards? Mr. Connery: Setting standards and monitoring. Mr. Taylor: Those are the only questions I have for the moment on that. Mr. Chairman: 2.(aX1) Salaries $3,000,900 - pass. 2.(aX2) Other Expenditures $542,600 -the Member for Wolseley. · •

(1500) Mr. Taylor: In both areas, as a common question for Environmental Controls and Environmental 3671

Thursday, December 1, 1988 Management, we have a new Environment Act in place . It would appear from time to time to have a need for a very thorough review of environmental standards of various sorts . The Minister and I have talked in the House and we have talked in private about this . The question I have is, given what it appears to me anyway a change in orientation on environment across the society, is there a need for additional resources to be able to handle environmental responsibilities on the part of this Government? Mr. Connery: Well, we are handling it.

I think every department in Government would love to have more resources and do more things, but we are handling it. Mr. Taylor: I would suggest there is one heck of a lot of juggling going on. I am not convinced how well it Is being handled . But the issue is that we do not see any significant increases in any four of these budget lines, Environmental Control, Salaries and Other Expenditures , and ditto for Environmental Management . These are very tiny increases that would appear to be based on inflationary increases only.

The question I still have is, is the capability there in the department because, other than allowing for inflation , there is a virtual freeze? One looks in gross terms at these numbers . Mr. Connery: Well, there is always room for increased numbers and to be able to do more things, there is always that potenti,il there. As we see in Question Period , other departments being asked , no question , every department could use more resources and do a lot more things that we would like to do. But of course , as you know, there is a constraint on money. We just do not have an open bank account.

Hopefully, we will get the economy going where a lot more money is coming in. We will have more money for all of our departments . Mr. Taylor: I recognize the want to do more things and the desire to do more things, but this is a department that has to do some things if there is going to be adequate protection for people, if there is going to be sufficient protection for the environment in general.

The question in my mind is, did the Minister in the Budget formulation process put it forward either to an internal committee of Cabinet or on the Cabinet table itself that he did need more resources for this department, or did he just accept the fact of this Government that there was to be no growth in most of this department? Mr. Connery: Yes, we are proponents for the environment , but internal discussions that we have with the Treasury Board and the Cabinet and so forth are not discussions that we take outside of those rooms . Mr. Taylor: Thank you .

I do not wish any details of it and I understand what the Minister is -saying about Cabinet confidentiality . I will put it in more simple terms . Did he request more resources for this .·department or not? Mr. Connery: That is still internal information that we are not going to discuss at this point . Every department would like more, I am sure, additional staff . The Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) would love to build more hospitals, a lot of things we could do, but we have to operate within bounds of the money that we have available and that is priorizing and setting priorities . Mr.

Taylor: The reason for the questioning is that it is more critical for some departments than others and the reason for the questions is, just where was the priority setting by this Government in various areas? It would appear that the environment certainly did not take a very high priority in the real scheme of things, notwithstanding many of the beautiful words and phrases that have caught on just recently. Mr. Connery: Well , I take exception to the misinformation that this Government is not concerned environmentally . As you have seen with the Round Table that we have, the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) beiog the head of the Round Table, the only province-where the Premier has taken upon himself to be the chairman of the Round Table . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Chairman: Order, please . We will be pleased to give all Members a chance to ask questions . Mr. Connery: Well, once again the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) likes to yip yap from his chair and, if he has a sensible question, I wish he would put it. Mr. Taylor: It has been suggested by the Deputy Minister to the Environmental .• Council that there is underfunding of this department , and his sentiments and mine concur in that.

I know it is a case of there are difficult times and always shortages of money but , when one hears that at the Environmental Council, when one feels that , when one sees the ability to respond notwithstanding the wishes and the good intentions, I think it is a fair question to ask the Minister , is this department adequately funded? It would appear not to be so. Mr. Connery: I think the Honourable . Member should know that it is just like your own home . You have so much money to function in and there are always many more things you would like to do, but you do the best you can with what you have.

I think we have excellent staff and I think they are doing a good job for the Government and for the people of Manitoba. I am very pleased with the environmental staff . Mr. Taylor: Mr. Chairperson , I am not sure if it is under this line, but it is right in this general area. I am looking for a-if the Minister cari provide our committee with a status of the enforcement orders for northern mines , specifically as it relates to air pollution , and how many are under appe~I. how many are complete, and are any being re".cvnmended for deferral? Mr.

Connery: That information is not here today to h~ve the exact numbers of anything specific . Mr. Taylor: Yes, amongst others is the status of the order for HBM&S for acid rain pollution, and what is the status of the enforcement order on that one? 3672

Thursday, December 1, 1988 Mr. Connery: There is by regulation , and they are in compliance for the regulation now. The new regulatio n states that by 1994 they have got to reduce it by close to 30 percent . The provincial quota Is 550 kilotonnes per year of SO2 emissions. HBM&S is within those. There has been a concern raised to me by the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) . When it is an issue al health , we unmothballed one of our monitors and we have ordered HBM&S to install two more , as we mentioned the other day, so that we can monitor them just to ensure that it is safe .

Now that smelter will not be able to come up to the levels required in 1994 without rebuilding it, and we are looking at probably $140 million to rebuild that smelter. Without that smelter, Flin Flon is non-existent. Mr. Taylor: Right , and just to clarify, Mr. Chairperson , the Minister says that HBM&S is in compl iance on SO2 emissions now? Mr. Connery: They are in compliance at this time . Mr. Taylor: Okay, thank you . Are you able to give that information for any other of the northern mine smelter operations? Mr. Connery: I say they are all okay. This is not 1994 , as you know.

There are going to be some reductions for 1994 under the regulations , as they are in existence for today . Mr. Taylor: Mr. Chairperson , have there been any waivers given , any deferrals so that compliance can be said to be reached , and has there been any communications from the Minister of Energy (Mr. Neufeld) in that regard on behalf of any of these mines? Mr. Connery: Our departments are in consultation over mines at all times , and whether, as you know , Hudson Bay Mining is going to court over being in violation of one of. their regulations . Mr.

Taylor: My specific question is, has the Minister of Environment received any form of communication from the Minister of. Energy and Mines to deviate from the standards in any fashion for any of the northern mine smelter operations? Mr. Connery: ·No. · Mr. Harapiak: I just wanted to ask a question on the water quality in the . area of Pelican Rapids and the Shoal River. I was in that community recently and he said that there is an awful lot of waste comes down that river In the spring · of the year. Is there any monitoring done on-that river? And who is responsible for monitoring it?· Mr.

Connery: That is one the staff say they will have to check on and we can get back to you on it. I am not familiar with it. Mr. Harapiak: In the community of Pelican Rapids , it is the Shoal River. Mr. Chairma'n: Item 2.(a)(2)- pass . (

b) Environmental Management Services :

(1) Salaries, ,$2,614 ,800-the Member for Wolseley. Mr. Taylor: To what degree are offic ials in this unit investigating the state of the art as far as stand ard settings in other jurisdictions ? Mr. Connery: · As far as emission levels and that sort of thing in other jurisdictions? Mr. Taylor: Mr. Chairperson, emission levels, lead levels and air lead levels and water lead levels , and blood . Mr. Connery: That, Mr. Chairman, is an ongo ing basis where our department is going to conventions and programs and dealing with the federal Governmen t.

But the federal Government , all through CCREM of course , is an excellent one and many subcommittee s of CCREM that are dealing with a lot of waste and so 1 forth . That is an ongoing process . Mr. Taylor: In speaking to the committees of CCREM , is this Minister satisfied with the whole thing in regard to the CCREM committees , as it relates to specifically standards review standard setting. Mr. Connery: It has been a good effective proces s and there are other - you know , CCREM can establish different committees . These are not necessarily the only comm ittees that can be establ ished if there is a concern .

There was a concern raised on radon , and Manitoba took the lead to take an information package back after the semi-annual meeting to talk about and bring forth recommendations for standards for radon , for the construction of new homes and for the repair or radon proofing of homes that have already been built. *

(1510) Mr. Taylor: Has the Minister had his staff in any way review the practices of various municipal jurisdictions , not just the City of Winnipeg, as to the practice of dumping of stree t and road snow removal operations , the dumping of said snow on the banks of rivers and on the rivers themselves , the frozen river surfaces ? Mr. Connery: The Member would know if he would have the document that the other Party got , that was one of our departmental ones , would know that it is one of our concerns to deal with the City of Winnipeg . Maybe I should give you a copy of mine .

Why not have everybody know what we are discuss ing with the City of Winnipeg? But you must already know , being a city councillor. You know the issues that are there. It was just a list of the various issues, environmental issues , that we want to discuss with the city. Putting snow on to the rivers is a concern with the city, but we have nor come up with a final - we will deal with that first and then provincially we can move . ~ut I do not think it is that widespread in the rura l areas that I am aware of. Mr. Taylor: I understand that the Minister is saying his department is reviewing it right now. 3673 'I

Thursday, December 1, 1988 Mr. Connery: Well, we are in the process. We want to meet with the city and, as you know, the Environment Act gives us a lot of leeway. But I do not think the snow removal really-jurisdictionally, we have the authority, do we? It is a grey area but , even if it is grey, that does not mean that we will not address it and work with the city and with other jurisdictions to do the right thing . Mr.

Taylor: The concern has always been one of bank stability on my part but, during the time that I was on the Rivers and Streams Committee , the snow removal dumping sites were taken off any of the fragile banks. Now it is more a case of pollution that we are talking about. The snow dumping is not being done on unstable banks . That is a change in practice and a step in the right direction.

The problem is the committee trying to deal with it has not got the authority to deal with the pollution aspect and that is why I am looking to the leadership of his department, and it is specifically the biggest one being salt, but other chemicals as well. Mr. Connery: I think the Member would recognize though that if huge amounts of snow were piled in vacant fields or whatever, with a quick spring thaw, we would see a lot of that water moving and eventually get back into someplace else.

If it is salt , it would either seep into the soil in the immediate area, which would then render it probably useless, or it would eventually run into the rivers through the sewer lines , or just through ditches and so forth. Mr. Taylor: I would ask the Minister that before he deals directly with the city, if he has his staff review standards that are being employed in other jurisdictions and, for example, one only I can give you, is Ontario which has a requirement of setback. There is no dumping on the rivers .

You have to be back so many metres so that when the thaw comes there is a percolation effect through the soil and the water effluent reaching the river is not in the same condition as the melt water . Mr. Connery : At that point, and I think the Member would agree, that when you designate certain pieces of land for snow dumping, and because of the corrosiveness, the salt in the snow, you are saying that we are prepared to render a piece of land fruitless for production after. That maybe is better than putting it on riverbanks .

I mean, if you are going to have - either that or we will ban salt on the roads and I do not know if that is-we do so many good things environmentally, but you have to weigh the total consequences of it and sometimes you can do things that really in the long run are more detrimental. Mr. Chairman: 2.(b)(1)-pass; item 2.(b)

(2) Other . Expenditures $729 ,200-pass . 2.(bX3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations $133,600-the Member for Wolseley. Mr. Taylor: Oh yes, I see where you are here. All right. Mr. Chairman: Does the Member have a question? Mr. Taylor: The question is, recoverable from whom? Is it from other departments or is this from other Governments? Mr. Connery: It is other departments of the Government. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Mr. Connery: Just an explanation, like the Ward Lab, for instance, is under Environment. 1/je have fees, and we do charge other departments . Mr. Chairman: 2.(b)(3)-pass . 2.(

c) Dangerous Goods Inspectorate Training $183,000-the Member for Wolseley. Mr. Taylor: Mr. Chairman, I assume these are the charges for people to do the training and, if so, how are those people hired to do that trail]i .ng? · · Mr. Connery: This is a three-year Government federal program that they are paying the provinces to do the training for the dangerous goods part of the Act. The Fire College is doing the bulk of the training. People have gone out, we have discussed it before about the RCMP, the numbers of RCMP that have been trained.

He also made the suggestion that we in looking for these culprits who are dumping hazardous goods that we ask other jurisdictions such as Highways to keep an eye out for it. Mr. Taylor: The question is, to what extent are consultants used within that $183 ,000 and how are they hired? Mr. Connery: None. Mr. Taylor: Thank you. Pass. Oh, pardon me, I have one last question . On the end of the very last question on Tuesday was related to training about the handling of dangerous goods and I have here Hansard from Tuesday .

The question goes as follows, that is: "Is the Minister aware that not all federal staff are taking the training for the handling of dangerous materials such as PCBs, and the example I can show him is the recent air handling of PCBs from Winnipeg International Airport to Georgia, in which the military staff and the military NCOs could not be guaranteed by National Defence that they had had any training in dangerous goods whatsoever. " Is he satisfied with that? Mr. Connery: 1· am satisfied that the process was done carefully and appropriately. It was done under the previous administration . They were notified .

It was handled in the proper process but the military - we do not have jurisdiction over the military as far as the flying . I ani'not in favour of PCBs flying . I said that in the House . We asked the previous Minister, federally, Mr. McMillan , who is now defeated, to ask with his counterparts to put a moratorium on both water and air mi;,vement of PCBs. 3674

Thursday, December 1, 1988 Mr. Taylor: That was most unfortunate . . . but, as I said in the House , I suggested that was Devine justice striking, and that is De11ine as in the Premier Devine of Saskatchewan . ' The point is, does the Minister concur with the fact that federal staff do not have training and that the military is fully exempted? I am asking him to show leadership by requesting the new federal Environment Minister, whoever he might be, to insist that military staff, coast guard staff, etc., have training in the handling of dangerous goods before they handle them . Mr.

Connery: The training of federal people comes under the federal jurisdiction . The only people who we have trained are the RCMP who come under federal jurisdiction . It is an arrangement. The RCMP, as you know , are put here . I do not know all the arrangements , but these are the only federal people who we are being responsible for train!ng . There are other federal people who are involved in the environment. They are trained by their own level of Government. Mr. Chairman: 2.(c)-pass . 2.(

d) Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management Corporation $2,200,000-the Member for Wolseley. Mr. Taylor: The question to the Minister is, we are going from a zero appropriation or special appropriation, I suppose, that filled in the blank to get the corporation going to an appropriation of $2.2 million. How does the appropriation expect to spend $2.2 million this year when it is a rather small operation and we will not be seeing any concrete put into the ground for the new hazardous waste treatment plant that has been talked about? •

(1520) Mr. Connery: There was about $300,000 last year. The money was achieved through financing, through the Department of Finance . This is the first year that they have come through the Estimates process for their funding. The Hazar ·dous Waste Management Corporation undertakes quite a few different things . There was some transfer of people from the Environment Department over to the't-taz~rdous Waste Management Corporation . I think the Member is aware of that. They have the waste exchange . They work with people to indicate where thfly can take the product to, say, Samia for disposal, where it can be held .

They did a lot of work with the PCBs in coordinating and picking up and consolidating little amounts into one area . Of course, with the open houses and the site selection, this is quite a process . We can assure you we are not going to be wasting money. If it is not all used this year, we will use it next year. This is not a cheap process to locate a site, the publicizing of it to ensure that all people are made aware of the location and timing of these open houses because it is something that people who are not aware or not knowledgable about worrying.

When people find out what the site is all about, then the concern dissipates very quickly . We anticipate the hazardous waste site employing some 20 to 30 full-time people. These are very good jobs . I think small _communities would be very happy to get them . In fact, there are some communities that , are indicating that they are having an interest in it. Other communities say, look , we do not want it. Mr.

Taylor: A last question in this area, before concurrence , I would ask that the Minister provide a more detailed breakout of the $2.2 million for this Crown , corporation operation so that further questions cou ld be asked . I would also take him up on his earlier generous offer of being in receipt of his status report on environmental items with the city. I will take it right from his hand. I will not just find the thing somewher e else- Mr.

Connery: I appreciate the Honourable Member for suggesting that he would not just pick it up if I had laid it down and went for a cup of coffee and when I came back and it was gone . I appreciate that offer. Maybe I should give him a copy of it, it would only be fair. . We can give you a breakdown of the $2.2 million . I did have one, had asked for it some time ago from the Hazardous Waste Management Corporation for my own edification . I was looking for it the other day and I could not find it.

So we will redo that document and we will give you a breakdown of Salaries and - (Interjection)- yes, maybe I left it somewhere and maybe the NDP can show it to you . We will provide that for you , that is no problem, I would be pleased to . There is a whole list of activities that we can, for the Member . We can photocopy this and give you a copy of the 1 various activities they do. It is your corporation as well as mine, and you should have that ability . Mr. Harapiak: I just want to make a comment.

There were many questions we need to ask in the area of dangerous goods inspection also in Manitoba , hazardous waste but , in the interest of saving time , I will pass on them . I just want to make a comment. Public meetings were held in connection with the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management Corporation . and I was pleased with the cooperation of the staff there. They are much more cooperative and much less sarcastic than the Minister responsible for th e department.

I think if the Minister maybe consulted with his staff much more, maybe things would roll along more smoothly than they have been but I would pass that . Mr. Chairman: 2.(d)-pass . Resolution No. 59: Resolved · that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $9,136,900 for -Environment and Workplace Safety and Health . Environmental Management, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March 1989-pass. 3.

Clean Environment Commission : Through publi c meetings and hearings, makes recommendations for Environmental Licences to limit and control adverse environmental impacts from developments; carries out investigations of environmental matters of interest and 3675

Thursday, December 1, 1988 importance throughout the province to provide policy and legislative advice to the Minister; and assists in the resolution of environmental conflicts through the provision of environmental mediation serv ices . (

a) Salaries $225,900 --;-the Member for The Pas. Mr. Harapiak: I just wanted to make one comment . ·I think it is unfortunate that one of the Clean Environment commissioners was let go after she contacted her Member of the Legislature to let him know some of the interference from the Minister, and I think that the way that she was informed of not even getting a letter till after it was in the paper is not a proper way of doing it.

I would hope that the Minister would expand on the Commission and have someone from northern Manitoba , because as it stands now there is nobody on the commission from northern Manitoba so , when he is looking at making his next change or making some changes on it or expansion , I would hope that you would consider somebody from northern Manitoba . Mr. Connery: I appreciate the comments of the Member for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak) . We did not let anybody go. As you know , the terms were expired and people are replaced or renew their appointments . I guess we thought Swan River would be considered North .

There is one person from Swan River on the Commission but the Member does not think that is really to be considered a northern representative . We are not opposed to keeping an eye if somebody decides to quit or terms run out to look for somebody from Churchill , Thompson , Flin Flon or The Pas. I guess those are the areas you consider to be northern and Swan River is not considered to be North . I am not saying that in a negative way, I am not trying to be smart . It is just I am looking for some advice . Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? The Member for Thompson . Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): I would like to add to the comments of the Member for The Pas. Having been contacted by one of the commissioners who was let go, by Mamie Hendren , I think the way she was ) treated was very shoddy . I think what she did was the appropriate thing given the circumstances and I, quite frankly, am very disappointed that this Government in announcing its new board , it publicly stated that it wanted its own stamp on the board .

I just hope by that it does not mean it wants a rubber stamp , because I think the way in which Mamie Hendren was treated , as I say, was very shoddy and I quite frankly do not feel it did the Minister and this Government any good in terms of trying to give any assurances to people who are concerned about the env ironment that it does have any genuine concern, because I think we need more Mamie Hendrens on the Clean Environment . Commission . She was not afraid to state her mind, state her concerns, and that is what we need on that commission.

I think one of the black marks on this- Government's record this Session , in terms of the environment, is going to be the way it has turned the Clean Environment Commission, as I said , into a Government stamp , but I think a rubber stamp . Mr. Connery: I cannot disagree with the Member for Thompson . We should have made a phone call the same day when we released the news release . We mailed letters the same day that the news release was out but , as you are well aware, it would probably take two or three days to get there , so we should have made a phone call at the same time the news releases were out .

I accept the criticism. Mr. Ashton: I was saying I am not just concerned about the way she was informed . I think she should have been left on the commission. There was plenty of opportunity to put new people on the board . There were openings on the board . I think you lost someone that had a very genuine concern for the environment and someone who was not afraid to speak her mind . .I feel that is a loss. I know her personally and a lot of people in Thompson do.

She is very highly respected, and .1 think the Government would have done well.t o leave her on the board even though she may have been outspoken in her criticism in terms of the Minister 's action on that one particular occasion . I think that is an asset. I think she is not afraid to stand up to anyone, including people who would be making presentations before the commission . That was my reference as well, not just the way she was informed but the fact that she was let go from the Clean Environment Commission . *

(1530) Mr. Chairman: 3.(a)- pass. 3.(

b) Other Expenditures $129 ,800-the Member for Wolseley . Mr. Taylor: Just one question to the Minister, Mr. Chairperson , given the new Act in place now, can the Minister provide a rationale , and I do not ask him to provide it now, but to provide a written rationale before concurrence as to how he expects the Clean Environment Commission to operate , given the new Act in place and its major increase and its workload? So what I am looking for is a rationale of this small budget increase and how he expects it to operate, given its rather more significant workload .· Mr.

Connery: This is one department where it is pretty difficult to accurately budget for the expenditures because we do not know all of the various proponents that are going to come forth . If there is need for additional monies, we would have to go back to Treasury Board . That would be the process, just to go back to Treasury Board . We are not going to not have inquiries because we have run out of money . The inquiries will be done as necessary under the Act, so we would have to go back to Treasury Board for additional money. Mr.

Taylor: What assurance does the Minister have that he will gej the money from Treasury Board if they are that slll)tt of money? Mr. Connery: It is a statutory requirement. There would tie no concern. I am not afraid that we would not get our money. Mr. Chairman: 3.(b)-pass . 3676

Thursday, December 1, 1988 Resolution No. 60: Resolved that there be granted • to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $355 ,700 for Environment and Workpl ace Safety and Health, Clean Environment Commission, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March , 1989-pass . 4. Manitoba Environmental Council : Provides •~dvice to the Minister with regard to environmental problems and concerns . (

a) Salaries $53,800-the Member for Wolseley. Mr. Taylor: Here we are again with an organization that has a flat situation as far as budget , has a very tiny increase for salaries. How can the Minister, in good conscience, leave the Environmental Council in this sort of a status? Mr. Connery: It is not a large amount of money. I have to concur with the Member. I think our staff do other things. There are staff who are available for consultation with them . In fact, I am meeting with the Manitoba Environmental Council this Saturday . It is their annual meeting.

We have fully replaced the-I should not say replaced, pardon me. We have reappointed, and the appointments came from the Environment Council themselves . I am not satisfied that we have affirmative action the way it should be on that council but , since it represents groups and groups make that decision, they do it, that is their representative . I asked Mr. Rollo to ensure that we had a good mix of all walks of life , whether it be visible minoriti~:,; . Native people , women . There are not enough women on the board to satisfy me. They have to be concerned about the environment .

Naturally they should be on there, but there are a lot of women who are very concerned about the environment . The Member for Selkirk (Mrs . Charles) , I think, was on that commission , quite concerned about the environment , and I appreciate that . Mr. Taylor: Has the Minister up to this date finally concurred in the recommendations of the appointees to the environmental council beyond the small numbers that were recently of Mr. Rollo, his exec and a few others? Mr. Connery: l(you would have about three days ago been in ttie House and heard me muttering , I had all these letters to sign to go out.

They have all been contacted by phone ·because the letters were not going to get there in time for Saturday . Mr. Taylor: What are the numbers? Mr. Connery: I think it is in the area of 50 or 60, somewhere like that, but we can give you the list. Mr. Taylor: Nowhere near the 100 it used to be. Mr. Connery: These were the numbers they gave us. I think 100 is an awful large body to try to be effective but there are committees and different groups who can work. Mr. Taylor: The Minister did not recommend a lower number to the council? Mr.

Connery: Yes, we think that the numbers were high, but we did not come down with severe restrictions on them . We have talked to them and I think we have a good rapport. As yoti know, the last meeting of the Environment Council, I was not able to . make because I was in Ottawa on an: emergency meeting . My Deputy came home early. He was able ·to leave . I was chairman of the meeting . He was able to leave and addressed the Manitoba Environment Council. I will be speaking to them this Saturday and we will be spending three or four hours with them . Mr.

Harapiak: Just on this Environment Council, have there been any recommendations to the Minister to take a different direction in the whole area of Rafferty Alameda? Mr. Connery: They have not to me that I am - I cannot remember . I can almost say I am positive, but I hate using the word " positive" because the amount of mail that goes through you can always miss something and not be aware .

If the Member wants, we can check our files . f Mr. t-tarapiak: I would appreciate getting that I information because the Wildlife Federation would be part of that council and the Canadian Wildlife Federation came out in opposition to it. So I would think there would be consistency in the Wildlife 's opposition to that proposal. Mr. Connery: I do know that the Member for Niakwa (Mr. Herold Driedger) was on the council and they did bring it to the previous Government's attention thal there were PCBs in boxcars that were not acted on. Mr. Chairman: 4.(a)-pass ; 4.(

b) Other Expenditures $13 ,800-pass . Resolution No. 61 : Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $67,600 for Environment and Workplace Safety and Health . Manitoba Environmental Council, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March , 1989 - pass. 5. Workplace and Worker Services: Consists of activities to prevent safety and health hazards in all places where people work and to detect and eliminat e these safety and health hazards . To provide assistanc e and services to claimants respecting worker s compensation claims. (

a) Workplace Safety and Health :

(1) Salaries, $2,752,700 - the Member for Radisson . Mr. Allan Patterson (Radisson): Just give us a moment here please, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: Certainly . Mr. Patterson: The responsibilities of this depart ment are strict. Mr. Connery : While the Member is getting prepared . I would like to introduce my staff that is here. We have Jerry Spiegel from Planning and Research ; John McNevin from the Worker Advisor; Jane Riewe from Workplace; Jeff Bawden; Ron Glassford, who is the 3677

· Thursday, December 1, 1988 Director ; and Wolf Boehm, who is our finance person for the whole Environment and Workplace Safety . Mr. Patterson: I was given to understand we are going to go to the Workers Compensation after the Environment. But it .is immaterial to me if-where are we here? Mr. Chairman: On Item 5. Workplace and Workers Services (

a) Workplace Safety and Health :

(1) Salaries $2,752,700-shall the item pass? Mr. Patterson: I would just like to ask, Mr. Chairman, this item at the bottom of the list for " plus general salary increase of $124,000 .00.2 I would assume that the general salary increases are in the salaries and would have been up with the totals . Mr. Connery: Yes, the big increase here is because the first was put in after-this is the MGEA contract. Okay, this is the new contract. Mr. Patterson: I note the reduction in staff years here for professional and technical of roughly five staff years.

I assume that professional/technical would include the various inspectors in the whole area of Workplace Safety and Health. It has been more or less my understanding of what one heard generally speaking over the past years since this Act came in that one of the problems is a lack of sufficient inspectors to really keep on top of things and see that some of the things that have happened do not get repeated. I just feel some concern about staff reductions in this particular area. Why, for Instance, would they have a reduction in construction Inspection and the training activity? •

(1540) Mr. Connery: We felt the department at that point could provide the service that was required . Mr. Patterson: I must apologize . I do not have the specific piece of paper in front of me that I had as a reminder but, at any rate , one of my colleagues brought up the question of inspectors for the automotive body , . shops, particularly in the spray painting and so on. I p forget the particular chemical that is in these last drying paints now that is quite toxic-isocyanates .

I think the regulations for controlling these are satisfactory, but I understand there are many small, shall I say, hole in-the-wall body shops out in the country that, you might say, are getting away with not having full protection for their workers. Mr. Connery: There has been no reduction in that area. Mr. Patterson: Where is the reduction specifically? Mr. Connery: Two in the construction area: There was one related to a reduction of support in the Government sponsored sector activities . There was one to the deletion of a specialized client services to employer and worker groups .

It was four year~ and 30 weeks . Mr. Patterson: What do we mean by the Government sponsored sector activity and the training? Is the reduction related specifically to inspectors? Mr. Connery: It was related, in one of them , through the health institution sector . There was a deletion there . Mr. Patterson: But not an inspector? Okay, thank you, Mr. Chairman . Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Mr. Harapiak: Mr.

Chairman, it is surprising to me that there would be a reduction in the number of staff when at the time there are more responsibilities being taken on, with the WHIMIS regulations coming on and new health regulations. I had been told that there are people who are seeking-before f get into that, the Act, it says there should be a medical doctor on staff . The last time I raised that question , the doctor had not been hired yet. Has that position been fille_d at this time? Mr. Connery: No, that is a valid criticism. We. have not been able to fill that position, it is not ;m easy one to fill .

We are attempting to fill that position . Mr. Harapiak: You do intend to fill that position? Mr. Connery: Yes. Mr. Harapiak: There are schools who are calling for safety and health symposiums which were put on for the last two years . This year , I am told that the courses that are being put on by the Health and Safety Department have been reduced in quality from a two day course to a one-day course . The department is not able to fill all of the requests that are coming forward . They are saying that it is not their responsibility .

It is a responsibility of the Manitoba Teachers' Society or the Manitoba Association of School Trustees . Can the Minister tell me if it is because of the shortage of staff that they are not able to fulfil! these requests that are com ing forward? Mr. Connery: To date , there has been-the staff have given me the numbers-39 have been held and there were about 1,300 participants . Because of the interest , we are expanding and carrying it out more . We feel that we will cover the needs of the training . Mr. Harapiak : So they are able to fill it?

I have had calls from school divisions who say they cannot have their request filled . The department feels it is not their responsibility , that is, putting on courses that were put on in previous years . Has there been a change in policy for filling safety and health symposiums? Mr. Connery: No. Those figures I quoted were WHMIS training courses . There will be health hazard courses starting in January. Mr. Harapiak: There is one issue that has been raised today and given profile because of it being declared World AIDS Day. Has this subject led to a lot of difficulty in the workµlace?

How is the department dealing with requests ·'6r injuries that may become-by needles or some other form of injuries in the workplace? Mr. Connery: Our department is going to be co sponsoring a program with the Department of Health starting in February . 3678

Thursday, December 1, 1988 Mr. Harapiak: On the WHIMIS regulations, they came into effect on October 31. Has it been necessary - I am not sure what the proper term is-to lay any charges or lay any orders against any organizations because of the regulations? .. Mr. Connery: I was carrying that in my briefing notes for about four months, waiting for a question like that io happen . Actually, the regulations do not really come into real play for 90 days after October 31. So really it is about the end of January before they really come into effect. Mr. Harapiak: But if there is any new material brought in between now , that is in effect now , from my

interpretation of the Act, that is for existing workplaces when they come in that they have 90 days to make whatever changes are made. But if there are some new materials coming into place that Act is in effect at this time . Mr. Connery: There have been no charges laid and I think the Member full well knows that WHIMIS is a very, very complicated and complex legislation along with the health hazard regulation . It is going to take a little bit of time to make sure that people are informed . We do not want to come in and people are not even fully conscious of all the things they have to do.

So we would rather work with businesses to ensure compliance. At some point in time , if companies are trying to get around it, t.tien of cou rse we will , and the regulations are there , but it is more working towards compliance rather than walking in and starting to lay charges right off the bat . Mr. Harapiak: Does the Minister feel that his cutting off the Labour Education funding is restricting the ability to educate the public on the whole WHIMIS regulations? Mr. Connery: It has been brought to my attention that there has been no reduction in the delivery of their programs .

As far as I am aware of, there has not been. Mr. Harapiak: I have been told that there have been reductions because all they have on is one staffperson. So there has been· ·a reduction and there are people ·out there who are crying for information on the WHIMIS regulation, and there are people especially involved in the agricultural Jield asking for seminars to be put on, and there is nobody available to put seminars on in rural Manitoba. •

(1550) Mr. Connery: There are a lot of private groups that are able to put on thes ·e seminars . The Manitoba Safety Council is getting into that sort of thing beyond just the driver training . They are getting into safety in the workplace, but theirs is a fee for service and of course they do have a charge . Naturally , people would like to get all of it for nothing but I do not think the Governments have to do everything for all people . If there is a need of that , it can be purchased . So there is no need for people not to get the training . Mr.

Harapiak: There seems to me some confusion in the health field as to how the blood samples are handled that may contain hazardous material , blood sample s from hospitals to labs. How are they supposed to be labeled? Mr. Connery: I do not have that detail here. We can get that for him . That is getting right into the fin e deta il of how to label it. That information can be supplied . Mr. Harapiak: There is confusion with the people who are involved in that field .

I was told it would be good if the Minister would be able to come up with a definitive statement of how this should be labeled because there is confusion in the health care field on how that is supposed to be labeled . Mr. Connery: The health · care sector committee is disc ussing it tomorrow . They are aware of the concern s and are working with it. Mr. Harapiak: Could I meet with the Minister and be briefed on it after it, because there have been quite a few calls on this particular item? Mr. Connery: We can supply the information to the Member, that is no problem . Mr.

Patterson: Just trying to refresh my memory, o ne other item , going back to inspectors, we had a letter, and unfortunately anonymous or unsigned, so I do not like to give too much credence to this type of thing. On the other hand, I have mentioned this specifi c incident and location . Just last month , in one of the rural towns, this individual had called in to the department to inform them of a construction site ol some roughly half a dozen or so violations of the Act , and was told they would have the inspector for that particular area be right out .

Roughly a week to 10 days later, the inspector still had not been out. I will give the letter to the Minister today or tomorrow . That is what rouses concerns about the workload of the inspectors and are there suffici ent number s of them , particularly to cover all the rural areas . Mr. Connery: We set priorities as to what areas but, if it is a week or 10 days , it seems to me that is far too long . Who knows , did it get lost? That is always possible . If you supply us with the information , we will follow up on it to find out why it took that long . That is not an acceptable period of time . Mr.

Chairman: Shall the item pass? Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): Mr. Chairperson , to the Minister , I am not too sure ii this might be the exact location that I should be asking this question . It is regarding Workers Compensa tion and applica tions put · forward if that is okay ? Mr. Connery: Sure. Mr. Lamoureux: The question that I have is, I h ave had a great number of constituents in my own area who have made application for workers compensation . In many cases, because of their unspecific injury , they had been put on a waiting list or been continuously 3679

Thursday, December 1, 1988 put off. I have one individual who is documented every time he has called Workers Compensation and has been told virtually every time that they are seeking further information . I have six or seven such constituents , and it raises a lot of concern with myself and the process . Maybe the Minister can explain to me how it is people who are in need, because after all they hav·e commitments that they have to make, mortgage payments or whatever it might be - they were unfortunate enough that they have to go on workers compensation .

I am sure that they would like to go back to work but they are continuously put off, at least in their view that they are being put off. Mr. Connery: I get many complaints from people on workers compensation , and we are really not into Workers Compensation at this point. We will be getting into it when we have staff coming forward right after we finish this which. hopefully, we will get done today. We have a process and we have people over there who will help you . Have you talked with Bryan Weibe from the Workers Compensation? Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, I have been in contact with Bryan Weibe.

Actually, the last couple of times he himself has not even given me a call. I guess this is where I really have some sympathy for the claimants because I am getting the same reasons that is given to the claimants . I understand that there might be a backlog of applications. I do not have that great an understanding of exactly how it works but I have been lead to the impression on several occasions that it looks as if some type of decision was going to be determined and , once that time period has lapsed that I was assured of, nothing has happened . I would do a follow-up call.

Of late, I have not had return calls . Maybe so that we can continue going on to other sections, if the Minister is not initially aware of it, if I should maybe submit the names to him and he would look into these six or seven cases on these constituents ' behalf . Mr. Connery: I would be pleased to but I personally never get involved with a case for anything . As you ~ · know, the Compensation is a hands-off department or it is supposed to be. We deal with regulation and legislation and my really only role is to appoint members to the commission.

There has been a larg!:! backlog and that is why we appointed three more appeals persons to the commission to get that backlog cleaned up. Hopefully, by the end of March , we will be in a current position . As you know, we have hired a new CEO over at Workers Compensation . There were many department heads who were gone. We did not have anybody in Finance , Rehab . We just really had a rudderless ship over there which just added to chaos . The morale of the people was bad. I think we have in Graham Lane an excellent CEO. He is starting to rebuild it.

The size of the Workers Compensation Board ·is quite a large one so you just do not turn it arou11f:l overnight. It is going to take us probably another year before we really get it humming. I am very optimistic that with the new legislation that we are 'bringing in which makes it more specific , getting people into rehab as you knpw. I was very adamant last year in Opposition that 18 months was too long for somebody to wait to get into rehab and the commission agrees with that.

So we have been working very closely with the commission, with the implementation team to bring Workers Compensation back into the 1990s and be an effective organization . Now we will always have some complaints from people who feel they were not adjudicated with properly , so someone who is turned down naturally is not happy. But we have the process and if we have the process in place and if the adjudication is done properly, those workers injured in the workplace will be dealt with in a fair and , hopefully , quick fashion . Mr. Lamoureux: In terms of process .

I have been led to believe that there has been a change in the way a claim is being processed, that no longer are people phoning in. They are phoning in to someone who handles all telephone calls and they .are not · going to be talking to the councillors or the ones that are actually looking after their case. Is that true? Mr. Connery: Quickly Kevin , could you, sorry-the Member for lnkster. I was just looking at this note . Mr. Lamoureux: A claimant who is submitting for Workers Compensation , if he phones in, is he able to talk to his or her councillor? Mr.

Connery: That is a detail I would have to get from our staff. The process-now I do not know, the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) wanted to raise a couple of questions in Workplace ~afety. He has gone to another committee that he wanted to. Are there more questions on Workplace Safety? I do not want to close it off so that I want to leave it open for the Member for Thompson to ask his questions on Workplace Safety, but I do have staff here from Workers Compensation. When we get into that kind of detail, then we are able to give it. Mr. Harapiak: The Member for Thompson had questions on Workers Compensation .

He is a critic for it and he wanted to make sure that he was called back when - *

(1600) Mr. Connery: Then, if that is the case, we can try to finish off the Workplace Safety . Is it the intention that we finish Workers Compensation today? Is that the idea? What about Civil Service? Mr. Harapiak: I have nothing further to say at this time . Mr. Chairman: 5.(aXI) Salaries-pass; 5.(aX2) Other Expenditures $715,700-pass . 5.(

b) Wor.kf!r Adviser Office :

(1) Salaries $357 ,000- the Mem6er for The Pas. ' Mr. Harapiak: Is there a full complement of worker advisors at this time? Mr. Connery: Yes. 3680

Thursday, December 1, 1988 Mr. Harapiak: Who is handling northern Manitoba? Mr. Connery: It is in the process of being filled. I guess they have been going up from Winnipeg and we are in the process of doing that. •. ' Mr. Chairman: 5.(b)(1)-pass; 5.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures $51, 500-pass. Resolution 62: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,876,900 for Environment and Workplace Safety and Health, Workplace and Worker Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, I989-pass . 1. Administration and Finance (

a) Ministers' Salary $10,300-the Member for Wolseley. Mr. Taylor: Before passing this, I have two questions of the Minister. It relates to his own office's operation. Can he confirm that the situation now, in the sense of support staff for office, that he has now gained three secretaries and the Deputy Minister's office only has a single secretary, which is a change? Mr. Connery: I have two secretaries and then there is a part-time secretary. There are two with the Deputy Minister . There are five secretaries in the office. Mr. Taylor: Can the Deputy Minister confirm that he has two positions still? • Mr.

Connery: Yes, he has. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Mr. Taylor: Shall we have the Deputy Minister at the table to confirm that? Mr._ Chairman: The staff are not permitted to attend at the table at this time. Mr. Taylor: I have a further question . In discussions and on Tuesd~y, . .upon questioning from another .Member; the Minister had said that he has an executive assistant and a special assistant.

I have information that there is a third position that comes under the Minister's direct purview and that is a departmental liaison officer, hired on by the Minister himself and then all the paperwork had to be gone through by the staff post facto to legitimize that hiring on. Can the Minister make a comment on that? Mr. Connery: We were short-staffed because of the number of portfolios. I have hired one additional person to help coordinate the work of the Minister 's office. Mr. Taylor: Well then to say the least, Mr.

Chairperson, I would suggest that the discussion that took place on Tuesday afternoon between the Minister and the Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) when the responses were decidedly misleading, because there is not just an E.A. and just an S.A., there is also a department liaison officer on a full-time basis, I might mention, somebody hired out of the Minister's own constituency and hired in a most irregul ar fashion. I wonder if he would like to make a comment about that. Mr. Connery: We were look ing for

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-89
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 89.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	c63243c6b38597e1c7d008ef70b84bd38cb7a791

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