PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 93 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, JUNE 3, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

June 3 1970 Tape 1095 page 1. The House met at 11:00 A.M. MR.CHALKER: Last week I gave a written answer to question asked by the hon. member for Humber East in connection with the cost of the Janeway ApartmeUt > Complex at Pleasantville. I have been informed by my staff that a mistake had been made in answering~the question and quite a legitimate one too. They advised me this morning that the building cost, plus architects fees, are the basis for unit cost computations. In this case the building cost was two million three hundred and six thousand dollars. The architects fees $165,000 making a total of $2,471,000.

The area is one hundred thousand two hundred and ninety square feet, which makes the unit cost $24.70 per square foot. I must apologize to the bon. House Sir for giving this information incorrectly but it was just an ordinary mistake that was made by the computing s~stem in our department. MR.CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, the answer given in the question as to the number of square feet is 49,450 and now the minister says the actual area space is 100,290, what is the explanation for the difference? MR.CHALKER: Mr. Speaker, I go on now with something else that I did not think would be necessary.

The floor plans because of the large size of the building itself shows only half the floor. In the original computation of the area a mistake was made in not multiplying the result of the area take off by two to get the area of the floor. Hence the area originally given has 49,000 square feet should have been 99,000 square feet. A more accurate check, and I think ~his will answer my bon. friend's question. The more accurate check on the actual area have increased this slightly to a hundred thousand two hundred and ninety square feet. This error is regretted.

The three floors of the three buildings were involved and the result in error distorted the unit cost substantially. Presenting Petitions: MR.W.SMALL~OOD: Mr. Speaker, l beg leave to present a petition from some of the farmers in the Rattling Bro~k - King's Point area. I might say Mr. Speaker, . . that essentially the'area from Rattling Brook down to Harry's Harbour taking in Rattling Brook King's Point, Jackson's Cove. Silverdale, Nick's Nose Cove.- 5900

June 3 19~0 Tape 1095 page 2. Langdon's Cove, and Harry's Harbour is essentially the only farming area . in Green Bay with the exception of a small area up around the Trans-Canada near the main road leading into Springdale. The prayer of this petition Sir, is for the construction or improvement of a road from the highway leading from King's Point down to Harry's Harbour over to a place on the point. This road originally was constructed by the farmers themselves without any help whatsoever from the Government and without any help from the Department of Agriculture.

But the road of _ course was never properly constructed and it is now in such a condition that the farmers are finding it difficult to properly work their land. I strongly support the prayer of this petit,on and ask that it be received by the House and referred to the department to which it relates. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: MR.SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, question No. 522, on the Order Paper of May 26, in the name of the bon. member for St. John's West. There is no municipal water and sewer system at Musgrave Harbour, they do not have a system there. Therefore of course the Musgrave Harbour Academy had no water system.

There was nb water system that they could join, ~here being no water system in Musgrave Harbour. When the department of Municipal Affairs was made aware of the situation at the school, the inadequate sanitary facilities, at the school the Academy. the department made grants available to the council to the Town Council of ~usgrave Harbour to enable them to pay the cost of removing night soil daily from the school. Then the department also arranged with the Town Council to install water and sewer lines to serve the Academy. This is not a water and sewer system for the whole community but just to the school itself.

They estimate t _hat this will take about six weeks to complete.

(3) Does not arise. MR. W, CALLAHAN: Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to question No. 403 in the name of tpe hon. me~ber for St. Joh~'s West on the Order Paper April 13, The board endeavours where possible to take farm land as security and in such cases of course no insurance is carried. In:•cases where equipment is • 5901

June 3 1970 taken as security insurance is carried. With the exception of two loans . where in the first instance the amount owed is very small then the second instance where the first insurance policy had lapsed and the borrower had been requested to reinsure. That is in two particular cases.

(2) The Board felt there was no possible opportunity to make recovery because (

a) of termination of farming op~rations (

b) illness,the board feels this outstanding balance should be written off. The balance was not indicated in the question it is not indicated in the Auditor General's report and it is not indicated in the answer. So I am not sure what the balance is but for the reasons given the board feels this balance should be written off in this case. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR.CURTIS: Motion 6. MR.MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to delay the House much longer on this issue. God Knows it has enough discussion over the past I think something like two months. But just following out of some remarks made b~ the hon.

Premier with reference to the great development in connection with the National Park, I might say "toTe sincerely hope that this dnes all come about. 1 would just like to refer to some statements made in the HOuse of Commons as reported in the Evening Telegram of May 28, 1970., by 'Hr. Jack Marshall, Progressive Conservative member for the District of Humber-St. George's St. Barbe.

And I just quote from this article: "There can be no agreement signed on proposals in the Newfoundland White Paper on the Bonne Bay Park nor the Northern Peninsula developments within one month." This is dated ?-fay 28, as promised by Premier Smallwood. Jack Marshall, P.C.,Commoas Member for Bamber- St. George's St. Barbe,was told by a department of Regional Economic Expansion committee,meeting here on Wednesday. Information came after Mr. Marshall had asked two questions on the matter in the House and pursued DREE Minister Jean ~archand and Deputy ~inister Tom Kent on the subject in committee. ~r.

Marchand rose in the House to ask Russell Honey,~arliamentary ~ecretary to Indian Affairs and Northern Development Minister Jean Chretien,of the Department; !f the department had been presented with the Newfoundland White Paper proposals? He was told that the department was aware of the 5902

June 3 1970 Tape 1095 page 4. paper's existence but was still strictly concerned with t~e Bonne Bay National Park Plan and not with a supplementary development. Mr. Honey said the only information he had on the si~ning of the agreement was what he had seen from Newfoundland in the news media. At present he said he was not aware that additional presentations had~been made. Mr. Marshall said he was met with ottly a smile and chuc~le from other members when he asked the supplementary question this time to Jean Marchand. He asked Mr.

Marchand if his department was aware of the - White Paper's integrated~development plarr and other facilities. In the committee meeting that followed the West Coast Newfoundland member pursued the matter and the deputy minister answered for Mr. Marchan4. The departmeat is only aware of the park proposal made to the No~thern Affairs Departmen~ Mr. Kent said. 1 It is known that other proposals exJ s_t but nothing can be expected to be done abo.ut them in the future. • I I It is impossible,Mr. Kent said,for an agreement to be signed within a month.

The plans which appear to be involved are too far reaching and involve too many other departments' 1 he said. Premier Smallwood and Resources Minister W.R.Callahan both said earlier in the month that Ottawa is ready to accept most of the White Paper proposals. And an agreement would be signed by the end of June. Mr. Marshall said that .it is -obvious that no agreement is ready to be signed." llfR.SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. gentleman, I want to remind him of a statemeat I made here the other day that I had never said or given the slightest suggestion of an agreement being signed within a month.

But that I had suggested the acceptance by the Government of Canada of the ~bite Paper proposals, not the signing of any agreements. I rose to a point of privilege here the hon .• gent.le~n surely accepts that. MR.HURPHY: I do Mr. Speaker, I a~ weli aware of it but still at this moment there is still some doubt, where the accepting of &· proposal and the si~ning of an agreement both basically mean the same thing. I mean we are going to accept this proposal within a month, but signing just becomes automatic I think. I think that we have got to be fair in this and aay alright I accept your p'l'oposal.

I am going to buy your house, I am going to pay you 5903

June 3 1970 Tape 1095 page 5. x dollars say, but the signing will take place well tomorrow, next week or the week after. But all I can say is,bn.this 1 that I certainly hope that the whole development will come through; I think everybody tn. the House does and there is no doubt in the world about our feelings on the matter.

But I would not like to have the impression that this thing is sewed up, this whole development, and that the park agreement I think could be signed almost immediately and I would urge this House and the Government in particular to let us get on with the job and get the Nat+onal Park and if we are so sure that this thing is accepted and being accepted by the Federal Government let us get on with the park now immediately and then the others will follow in due course.

That is the only words I have to add,Sir, because I think that every other phase is being discussed I was not at the famous meeting in Rocky Harbour or any other matter pertaining to it, I think there are a lot of matters that have been injected into this thathave no bearing on the National Park because I remember back three, four or five years before the statement was made in this House,that we had to vote to get a second National Park in Newfoundland and I think the great boast was in the House then that possibly we would be one of the very ~ew provinces that did have a second national par~.

So I think the national Park is what we want,let us get on with the job, get the park proposals signed up and then,if the Government is so sure that the others will follow,then they will follow in due course. MR.EARLE: Mr. Speaker there is not a great deal~hat I can add to this debate because it is one

section of the country with which I am least familiar although I have been down there on several occasions, in winter and in summer. Apart from all of the considerations on which we have been quarrelling across the House on this particular issue it strikes me that theee is one outstanding part which would have a great influence on the thinking of anybody that considered the development of that area.

I remember . when the bon. minister f~r Public Works was my colleague,on the other side of the House,he rightly, as member for one of the districts in ~hat area,took great exception~to,the fact that I was making a few rather sarcastic remarks at one time about the area. This was based on the fact t~at having driven down through there at that time, for the first time, seeing a roa~ign in-Deer Lake which indicated 5904

~b.. June 3 1970 Tape 1095 page 6. that there were 300 miles of road from there to St. Anthony, lt made me see red because I immediately had to mentally compare it with my district and the area of the country that I serve b~cause (300 mile!!-' we could not get thirty miles of road at that time. The comparison was so ridiculous, now the justification might well be there,in the fact that the large settlements like St. Anthony and so on,at the end of the road,and these had to be reached by some means or other but there is large territory that had to be gone through in order to get to these destinations.

But in my opinion there are other sections of the country which have equally important developments - in them where no such effort has been made t~give the people the sort of connections that they are entitled to just as much as the people on that part of the coast. Now, I do not begrudge,Mr. Speaker, I do not begrudge the people of t8e West Coast, the North West Coast particularly,anything that they are able to obtain. They are apparently hard working industrious people and deserve all the help that they can get.

And frankly I hope that they get the National Park and get the airports and the roads paved and all the rest ~hat is asked for in this particular debate. But at the same time we must not overlook the Province as a whole. I think the fact that this sort of pressure has been put on Ottawa for a particular area,and it is not at the request of the people in that area. The people apparently would be quite well •satisfied, would be very happy if they would get something of a relatively ' modest nature in the way of a goo~ National Park.

Now here again I feel that we can support the Government in so . far as the park itself should have more amenities, should have better facilities perhaps than any other National Park, because National Parks across Canada have all been upgraded over the years and we should go for the very most that we can obtain for that park itself. But to try to spread the programme to ~over such things as a completely pavedc•road all the way down the shore and therefore it is a part of these other facilities which are asked for.

It seems to .me to be completely ridiculous;and if I were anyone considerin~ it in Ottawa I '-Tould laugh at the whole id£a. I would laugh it out·of shop. Now rightly the . peo~le of that coast should get these facilities that are bein~ asked for or kind of being · bludgeoned out of the Federal Government by th~ use ~Qfl~

~ . June 3 1970 Tap~ 109~ pn~o 7. of the argument of the park. But this is not the place f~r them to get it this is not the method. The whole DREE programme,we are given to understand,is to provide this type of assistance and most certainly under the normal DREE programme other such thin~s as public works and fisheries and so on.

Wi~hin these votes there should he all the pressure that the Government can exert on Ottawa to get the assistance that they require, but not camoa;~age it by saying we will not give you a park or will not allow you to develop a park unless you come along with all these what I consider outrageous demands which they are making under that pretext.

I do not think it is the right tactic.! am quite sure that if I were approached in such a manner,it is like a salesman going to ,, a firm, a buyer,and saying;look you can only have this commodity if you buy another scarce commodity which you cannot get anywhere else." And it is the sort of horae trading tactics which from government to government is certainly unnecessary, should be unnecessary and should be completely abhorrent to the people who have been approached. Now this of course will be misinterpreted to say that I do not desire these facilities for that coast.

This is not correct under any stretch of imagination. I must repeat that the people in that area are deserving of every facility that they can possibly get as much as an~ other person or people in Newfoundland. But this is not the way to go at it. And at the same time,by so doing, to hold up the development of a park is also depriving them of what they might get with quite a reasonable approach. So they are the losers in two ways.

They are being put off on the final accomplishment for the things that we all desire for them and they are being put off on the immediate accomplishment of something which wouaa:be most desirable in the area. So I cannot for the life of me understand the justification for these tactics in this particular case. It is one· thing that Newfoundland has plenty of and needs to be developed in many sections of the province not ju•t that area alone. we have historical sites and we have beauty and we have tourist attractions. We hear of the Bonne Bay Park area and it is without doubt - most beautiful

section of the country, it is outstanding~y beautiful, 5906

June 3 1970 Tape 1095 p.age 8. but; there are many other sections of the country, I can name a dozen of them· that if not equally as good ate very close to it and s0111e in certain ways surpass it. Therefore, in justice to all Newfoundlanders,if theee is only so much gxavY to be spread it should he spread fairly,evenly. And I lUll afra:f,d that a tactic of this nature and this sort of an approach t -o a problem such as the :Sonne B-ay Park will preclude these serVices for otber sections of the country. Now, I hope and sincerely hope - 5907

June 3, 1970, Tape 1096, Page 1 -- apb MR. EARLE: I sincerely hope that the people in that area do get all the facilities that rhe Government planned for them but this must necessarily be a long range plan, it must take place over many, ~any years. It should rightfully be done under the new program of DREE, but to complicate this and delay it and to frustrate it, and to annoy the Federal Government people by going after it in this way to my mind is accomplishing absolutely nothing and will not get the desired end.

I would like to see the same sort of effort being made in a different manner for all sections of the Province. Any member who represents a district in this House can point out to the Government many things that need to be done in any

section that he represents. This generally should be spread as much as possible to do as much for our people in as many areas as possible but not go after it Whole-hog in one direct drive,just because the Government has the bit in its teeth and will not back away from this proposition. Let us get the park, let us get a decent park, the best we can possibly get with all the facilities we can get, but for heaven's sake do not just use the park as an excuse to develop the whole north-west coast. Let us do the development of the north-west coast in an orderly, sensible manner and let us get for those people an equal share of what they are entitled to as well as all other

section of the country. The area down there is beautiful beyond doubt, but there are long, long stretches of coastline with the road running along the coast which is desolate, bleak area. Driving down there on a windy day with the wind from the west, you are very often smothered with sand coming in off the beaches. Settlements are very sparse all along the way, with only little settlements here to there all the way down until you get down to the larger areas. This particular environment is not peculiar to that part of ~ewfoundland. There are many other

section of Newfoundland, particularly along the south coast where settlements are sparsely located and they cry Q,Ut and need the connections to be brought into the general contact with their fellow Newfoundlanders and fellow Canadians as much as any other part of Newfoundland. I feel that the Government should not be concentrating at 5908

June 3, 1970, Tape 1096, Page 2 -- apb this particular tin~ on one apoci!ic aroa and 1•t •o worked up and all hot and bothered about it, on what is in a sense an outrageous scale where they will very shortly or almost immediately have to return to Ottawa and say, " this is required somewhere else, that is required some- where else, and this must be done." 'The ~,treat danger is that, by approaching it in this manner and trying to force the issue under a national partnership, that many other sections of the country may suffer, and in fact, the people of the north-west coast may suffer because the authorities in Ottawa could very well say, " this is completely childish, we are going to withdraw from it completely." MR.

MYRDEN: Mr. Speaker, I will finish the debate if nobody else would like to have something to say. I would like to thank all hon. gentlemen . who took

part in this debate. I think it was very interesting and I cannot say that I disagree with almost anything they say because, I think we were carried away a little bit from the debate. I want to say very little about the white paper if it is possible to stay away from it. I would just like to say that the meat of this resolution was that this House regrets the failure of the Government of Newfoundland to proceed expeditiously with the establishment of the proposed Bonne Bay National Park. Now this is all we were :concerned with in this resolution Mr.

Speaker, I think that if I had known that it would take almost three months to go through the House I would have felt like withdrawing it as the Premier suggested because, yes, and the hon. Minister of Public Works suggested it, and the hon. minister and anybody else who suggested it Sir. I am not disputing that. Three months is almost too long to spend on anything, especially when you are getting only a few hours each Wednesday. I will right here say that I would like to thank all these gentlemen who took

part in this debate. It is not just a local issue any more, I think it has become quite national as far as Newfoundland is concerned. I know back home,.' and in Bonne Bay itself it is quite a realistic thing, they would like to go ahead with it. I suppose actually getting very mercenary about it, they would 5909

june 3, 1970, TApe 1096, Page 3 -- apb like to see some jobs created almost immediately. They know, and I think they feel rightly that there is $2 million in Ottawa waiting to be used. They have gone ahead with many of their own plans which I think are wonderful. This little pamphlet the people of Bonne Bay put out, what they say about Bonne Bay, just like Switzerland or Norway or Nevada, do not miss it, next time I will take my camera, my canoe, my climbing boots, my fishing tackle, my flower book, my paints, rock hammer, sail boat and scuba gear and stay all summer. Inside Mr.

Speaker, I think you will see a map there of the whole area, Trout River, Bonne Bay, Woody Point, Norris Point, right on down through past Rocky Harbour. I think they have some beautiful pictures there, giant lady slipper orchids, pictures of Trout River Pond which many of the bon. members know about, pictures going down through table land gulch which is an amazing sight, it is almost like another world. These are thing the bon. gentlemen know, most of them have seen them at one time or another in the Bonne Bay area.

I think actually Sir, staying away as much as possible we would like to get that national park as soon as possible. I think that really I have never heard of the like of Bonne Bay having so many welfare officers and I think that is due actually with very, very low employment there at the present time. We are not anxious actually to, or we are not actually inclined to say that we do not want a paved road, I think that all these bon. gentlemen will remember that just a few years ago the bon. member for St.

Barbe North and White Bay North and myself made a public statement saying that it was one of our top priorities actually to get a paved road right down the whole coast. I cannot see anything wrong with that, there is nothing wrong with it. There is nothing wrong with airports if they want to build them, there is nothing wrong with taking over the ferry service or developing the fisheries or the mining or the forestry.

That is all good, in fact, it is wonderful if we can get it for the coast, but like my bon. friend from Fortune has said, there are other places in Newfoundland I know when I say this, that do not have roads, do not have anything actually and we do not ~ant it all right away. We would like to make a start, this is the first thing, we would like to make a start 5910

June 3, 1970, Tape 1096, Page 4 -- apb on the national park. The national park will give employment. My bon. friend from Booavista South has quoted many figures there. As much es seventy~seven people in a summer, he has as high as eighty I think in the winter time. Now these are figures Mr. Speaker, that MR. BARBOUR: Ninety-eight MR. MYRDEN: Sixty-eight the bon. member says MR. BARBOUR: Ninety-eight MR. MYRDEN: Seventy-four and thirty-seven, I have the figures there, seasonal and permanent. This is a small industry in my district Mr.

Speaker, I think the only real industry we have is the fish plant and that is only seasonal, that is about two to three hundred people when they are working. We have now in Hawkes Bay other industry, but, Sir, this would be a big industry in our district and being very mercenary about it, we need it very badly. These people are anxious to work, they are great workers, they would go anywhere where they can get work and I know, I can understand the bon. member from Fortune when he says he was really surprised to know that there was 300 miles down through the St. Barbe Coast.

Well Sir, I must give the bon. member who preceded me and preceded the former member to, and that is the hon. member from St. Barbe North and I think rightly so, I think the people appreciate that. They know what he has done for that district and I believe honestly and sincerely that he is well known and well thought of in his own district. I know that, but, I am not interested right now Sir, in all the developments they talked of in the white paper. We are interested right now, this time of the year in fact, in getting most of our people to work.

I cannot see, and I cannot understand the reasoning really when there is money available, you know, just for instance, in the purpose of the national parks issue here they have; the parks are hereby dedicated to the people of Canada, for their benefit, education and enjoyment subject to the provisions of this Act and regulations,and such parks shall be maintained and made use of so as to leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations. Now I agreetoacertain extent that wilderness parks do not have much 5911

June 3, 1970, Tape 1096, Page 5 -- apb to offer, but we must also realize that ninety per cent of the people using these parks do so with trailers, camper trailers, tents and they enjoy the outdoors. We are not going to have much more left of the outdoors if we continue on, it is impossible. As far as I am concerned, I mean I would like to see a swimming pool, I would like to see a golf course but that is not necessary right at the present time. I would like to see more of a start on the national park.

I would enjoy it, I would enjoy probably a game of golf, I do some golfing but, there is not one out of a hundred in Newfoundland golfs. AN HON. MEMBER: What about the visitors coming in? MR. MYRDEN: The visitors Mr. Speaker, are mostly, and I say mostly from the island of Newfoundland. I do not think that he can dispute that. Most of the visitors in the national park in Terra Nova are from ••••••••••• MR. CALLAHAN: Ninety per cent of our park visitors in any year now are residents •••••••••• MR. l~RDEN: Right absolutely, no but we do not ••••••••••• MR.

CROSBIE: They play golf at home, they do not come to Newfoundland to play golf MR. MYRDEN: To play golf, or they do not fifty or sixty miles on the Ttans Canada to play a game of golf, they can stop in Corner Brook right there by the Trans Canada to play .a game of golf, they ean do the same thing in Grand Falls. MR. CALLAHAN: They should be provided anyway. MR. MYRDEN: We should provide all attractions, there is nothing," nobody disputing that if and when it becomes possible. We are anxious now to make a start on it. MR. CALLAHAN: So are we MR. MYRDEN: You see Mr. Speaker, as far as we are MR.

CROSBIE: You do not appear to be MR. MYRDEN: You see Mr. Speaker, as far as we are concerned there is $2 million in Ottawa and from the figures we •••••••• MR. CROSBIE: How much is here, how much is in our estimates? 5912

June 3, 1970, Tape 1096, Page 6 -- apb MR. MYRDEN: Nothing, not a cent MR. CROSBIE: Not a cent? MR. MYRDEN: Not a cent. Now I would also like to say - talk about the highroads program: The highroads program was given in this House a few weeks ago, not one highroad ~lr. Speaker, not one upgrading, anything in the St. Barbe South District. There is one mention and that is on bridges but there are more roads in St. Barbe South than the main road. There are many, many sections there that need upgrading. There has not been one bit of program.

I know the minister has said that he will be waiting for the national park and this is what we are hoping for. Actually I hope that the minister is right, that he will not have to spend that type of money if we get the national park money. It seems very, very strange that the whole of Newfoundland should get a roads program all of a sudden and not one cent being spent in the St. Barbe South district. I do not want to as I said before go into the white paper issue, but we have a few things to wind this up with.

I agree with most of the arguments about the roads and the airport, but I wonder if the minister has any knowledge when he talks about airports that there is an airstrip right now on the edge of the proposed national park. It was not mentioned in the white paper but MR.. CALLAHAN: Down by River Pond MR. MYRDEN: No, no, down by Portland Creek. It was built there by a private company and it has - there has been a four engined aircraft landed there; AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. MYRDEN: Yes that is right MR. CALLAHAN: We used it last summer MR.

MYRDEN: Yes, and it is quite usable now so that would cut out at least one airport, and that is right on the edge of the proposed national park. MR. CALLAHAN: This is not to the national park, this is for quick acces .s across the straits. 5913

June 3, 1970 1 Tape 1096, Page 7 -- apb HR. MYRDEN: Well this is fine HR. CALLAHAN: In fact it should go much further north MR. CROSBIE: There is nothing wrong with this airport MR. CALLAHAN: It is not an airport it is an airstrip. HR. ~ It is an airstrip HR. CALLAHAN: It is for light planes MR. MYRDEN: Well it is right on the edge, an airstrip, it is very, very solid and right down to rock-bottom actually. I would like to say Mr. on Speaker, to go/with this debate that many people all over Newfoundland have expressed their concern over it. They I think are most anxious to see something done.

I quote Sir, from some of the editorials " argument over the initial size of the Gross Morne National ~ark is almost superfluous since the area to which Government agrees is substantial.:• But the white paper over-did.things. Its contents were overwritten and its tone was that of s.n ultimatum. That is not the way to get things done." HR. SPEAKER: Order Please! I have to advise the hon. member that he must not read from newspapers commenting on any subject that is before the House. Now he can paraphrase it and give it as his own. MR. MYRDEN: Thank you Mr. Speaker, I will abide by your ruling.

It is my opinion actually ~nd I suppose maybe this could be right) actually it goes on to say that it has been made into a political football. MR. CALLAHAN: By whom? MR. MYRDEN: A political football. MR. CALLAHAN: Made into by whom? MR. MYRDEN: A political football Mr. Speaker, whether the minister feels that he is taking

part in it that is all right, but I am not saying whom right here, maybe we are all to blame. Maybe it has all gotten out of hand and actually it has been swallowed up by the white paper proposals. The political football Sir, has extended right from the Newfoundland Government to Ottawa. To ourselves too, we will include that. It is a shame- because I do not think that these people should be suffering for 5914 the thing that have gone on in this House especially during the last few - _,._

June 3, 1970, Tape 1096, Page 8 -- apb weeks. I feel that they are quite sincere when they say that they have . something to offer. I know they have Mr. Speaker, because, with their efforts on this pamphlet they have started a tourist industry themselves. They want to create something on the edge of that park that the people will be proud of and I want to say right here Sir, that as far as I am concerned I hope like the Premier said, that within the next two weeks there will be some statements from this House concerning the national park. According to Mr.

Marshall in Ottawa, here only lately in fact,he bas said that the park agreement maybe early in June. MR. CALLAHAN: Um, he is waffling now MR. MYRDEN: Early in June Mr. Speaker, and this is the man Mr. Speaker who I think deserves a lot of credit whether he is from another party or not. That does not make any difference, he is a very fine gentleman and I think he is sincere when he gets up there in Ottawa and tries to under- stand what is going on. MR. CALLAHAN: He is starting to see the light now MR.

MYRDEN: He says that as far as he is concerned there seems to be no hope that there will be anything done within a month or so on this white paper. I hope he is right, I hope we can get it, but he stated even more Sir, that he feels that something may be done in June. I think the bon. minister has stated publicly that something may happen before July on this national park issue. I hope he is right. MR. CALLAHAN: That is why I say the bon. gentleman in Ottawa is seeing the light now. MR.

MYRDEN: I hope he~right, I hope he can because this is all that the people in Bonne Bay and the people of Newfoundland want to see. They want a start. MR. WELLS: That does not include the a:Lrport and all that though MR. MYRDEN: That does not include the airports, it does not include the rest of it, but I hope I can be wrong there too. As the Premier says 5915

.,UIIC: jt A71V 1 .&.a.tn;a .a.u;,u 1 £a.~e ::J -- apt> I may never want to Tun down theTe because I may be ashamed of it, but I will neveT be ashamed of that because I would never be ashamed to ask for a paved road right down the coast. We asked for it.years ago. MR. CROSBIE: What about the roosters in Rocky Harbour? MR. MYRDEN: MR. CALLAHAN: MR. MYRDEN: MR. CALLAHAN: MR. CROSBIE: MR. CALLAHAN: MR. MYRDEN: Well, I am not going to get in any controversy oveT that The roosters have to have something to cTow about I would like to say MT.

Speaker, Tight here And the bon. gentleman will not feel like crowing Cock-a-doodle-do He will go hide his head somewhere Mr. Speaker, I would like to conclude this debate because I pTomised an hon. gentleman over there it would not be too long. I would like to say this in closing, 5916

June 3, 1970 Tape tll097 l'ap,e 1 JW MR. MYRDEN: that if anythinR possible c:an be done over thll next few Wt!i'ks to make a start on this National Park, I am ~ure that I will be the first in the House to stand up and congratulate the minister. We have had many differences but I do not think they have been that bad. I hope I can. I hope I can see these people go to work, because that is all I am interested in. Not whether it is going to be a personal triumph for me or for the minister or anybody else.

I think we should use common sense in this, and I think we should realize that the lives of people down there in St. Barbe South would be made a heck of a lot better if they went to work. They want to go to work Sir, and they want to see some mon~y spent in the area. I hope,Sir, that the minister will be able to make a statement concerning the Park, and we will all be glad to see it. Thank you Sir! HR, SPEAKER: Those in favour of the Resolution please say "aye," contrary "nay," in my opinion the "nays" have it. ON DIVISION: HR.

SPEAKER: Those in favour of the Motion please stand: The han. the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Hickey, Mr. Collins, ~lr. Earle, Mr. Wells, Hr. Crosbie, Mr. Myrden. MR. SPEAKER: Those against the Resolution please rise: The bon. the Premier, the hon. the President of the Council, the bon. the Minister of Labour, the hon. the Minister of Highways, the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs, Mr. Smallwood, the han. the Minister of Labrador Affairs, Mr. Hodder, Mr.

Strickland, the hon. the l-linister of Public Works, the han. the Minister of Finance, the hon. the Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources, the hon. the Minister of C ommunity and Social Development, the han. the Minister of Provincial Affairs, the hon. the Hinister of Public Welfare, Mr. Barbour, the hon. the Minister of Health, the han. Mr. Hill, the han. the Minister of Supply, Mr. Warnell. MR. SPEAKER: I declare the Motion lost. On Motion, that the House go into Committee of the Whole. Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! 5917

--r - Shall 805-01 carry? MR. WORNELL: Mr. Chairman, I just have a few observations to make on the debate which was in progress last evening. The hon. the member for Humber East made much of people listening to the thoughts of chairman Joe. And I am sure that equal attention perhaps is given to the thoughts of chairman Clyde. Mr. Chairman, my feeling is that there are two kinds of zealots, and you get them on both sides of the House. One kind knows what it is talking about MR. WELLS: I thank the bon. member for that. MR. WORNELL: And the other kind thinks it knows what it is talking about.

There is also another observation I would like to make, and this is in respect to. the hon . the Leader of the Opposition, a man whom I find to be a very fair and capable debater, and he certainly has a commendable and enjoyable wit. So when he was probably decrying the fact that he was not getting his due share of time, I felt like saying to him, "what you are Sir, speak,so loudly that you do not have to say it anyway." Now to get back to the arguments raised by the hon. the MR. SMALLHOOD: In spite of that shirt MR. t-lOR.."'ELL: Well he has a good Irish wit but he is departing now from the Emerald green - MR.

SMALLt-lOOD: He has gone north instead of south. MR. WORNELL: Yes. I think the hon. the Premier will probably notice that he is taking a lesson from some of his compatriots and near-compatriots. This is a tie which was donated"to .the cause. A very nice one. I notice that the bon. member had one on yesterday over there, the hon. member for St. John's East Extern, or was it the member for Gander? I noticed him sporting one, so I thought that I would be able to use mine as well. But to get back to the arguments,Mr. Chairman, I always try to make some sense, try to be reasonable, _try ~o · be .. 1ogical.

The hon. member for Humber East really castigated the Government last night, in not doing anything . 5918

for the farmers. If he had said that the Government is not doing enough for the existing farmers, that is the farmers that would make a viable industry out of their farm, then perhaps he may have been near the truth, if he had said that. But I will say this; that if you had all the money available for farmers, I would say that it would be used perhaps as a vehicle by the Opposition to further castigate the Government. Because I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that it would lead to more squandermania.

I am sure that people would come into this Government and put up all kinds of schemes, and they might think that they would be able to build a farm perhaps on the top of Gros Morne. They would get bulldozers, they would have the Government send out bulldozers, and they would clear land. And eventually they would . find that it would be all for naught. Loves labour lost. Because Sir, I do not think there is enough good arable land in Newfoundland for this Government . or any Government to worry its head too much about.

I believe- I know Newfoundland - I travelled every part of this country and I am not going to let any hon. gentleman take my experience from me. The only 'bit of good land that I have seen is on the West Coast, and perhaps on the Avalon Peninsula. There is Central Newfoundland. There is some good land there too. lnd down in the Diqtrict of the Ron. Member for Bonavista South yes! But let us be reasonable gentlemen, let us be reasonable MR. SMALLHOOD: And some river bottoms at the heads of some of the bays. MR. WORNELL: Some waddies I think they call them, the deltas or - No Mr.

Chairman, I think that we have to be realistic. We have an Industrial Incentive Act in Ottawa,at the moment under the Department of Regional and Economic Development. How many people are taking advantage of that Act? And the advantages that are available under that Act1 Not too many. Now I know that that perhaps does not cover farming, but it covers the processing of farm products. I am almost positive. It is a resource-based industry that would be covered by that Industrial Incentive Act, and what is more resource-based than say the processing of poultry, the processing 5919

.1.ape lf.LU:tl rage 4 JW of farm products, the tinning of beets, the bottling of beets. the tinning of turnip tops. That should be a resource-baaed industry, and I believe that anyone who wanted to could probably get assistance from the Industrial Incentive Act,from the Department of Regional Expansion. Now another point Mr. Chairman is this: Supposing we started a modern farm out on the top of Gros Morne. In the first instance you would have to buy all the expensive farm machinery, and that covers a lot of money l.fr. Chairman.

It was only last week, perhaps last Sunday night, that I was looking at a documentary where two farmers were interviewed, I think it was by Charles Templeman. One farmer was really into it in a big way. He was a big entrepreneur. And the question was asked;well how much money do you have invested in this farm equipment~ Oh well, I have $150,000 in this, and I have $40,000 in that, and so it· went until he was up to almost $300,000 in farm equipment. So in the next scene, they showed a run-down farm, A farm which had been inherited by these two brothers. They seem to be bachelors, although that may not be right.

But the old fellol-T was asked, how much he made. "Ah'; he said; "if I had to live off what I get out of this farm, I would starve. If I did not put away a few dollars in the good years, and invest them wisely, I would starve." Now that man did not invest in new machinery. He was saying that the only way he could keep it going at all was by buying used machinery. And then the question of skilled labour comes up. Now I have heard farmers from over around the Kilbride area tell radio announcers, radio interviewers, that they just cannot get their sons to work the farm.

The sons, he said, do not want to get up four o'clock in the morning and go out and chase the cows any longer. They want to stay up until four o'clock in the morning drinking beer or dancing, or something like that, and go to bed at four. MR. MURPHY: ------ Or chaae the girls. MR.. HORNELL: Now, these are facts Mr. Chairman. These are facts. We have to face these facts, and the bon. the Premier was · right, when he said that 5920

-· -~· - -· -.. . - ............ 11 av. • ... . , ... - "" regardless of how nostaglic our sympathies are, we cannot go back to the old days. It is progress - supposing we are marching into a straight jacket of oblivion - MR. SMALLWOOD: It is not even necessary progress, but it certainly is change. MR. WORNEl.L: It is a change Mr. Chairman, it is a change. But this is something which the reasonable man must admit. It is all right to score debating points, but in this Chamber we are supposed to use the debating time that we have to elicit· or . draw forth whatever truth we can out of a question.

And I am sure that the hon. gentlemen over there know how difficult it is to draw forth the truth in all cases. Now I have mentioned the terrific cost of farm buildings, farms, silos, machinery, fencing and so on. And I would say Mr. Chairman, that even if the -Government provi~ed all these things free, it would still be impossible to make a viable industry in farming in certain sections of this country. Because you are not going to get the right type of men to operate these farms, I raised that question before. I raised the question of having small industries in every settlement around this Island.

It is conceivable but it is not practical. It is like Christianity. It is conceivable but it is not practical in all cases. }m. SMALLWOOD: I do not think that-is a ·good illustration. MR. lolORNELL: The hon. the Premier has his views and I will have mine Mr. Chairman. Even with the best _ farmlands available - and even with the most modern machinery, farmers are finding it very difficult Sir, to make a reasonable profit. Now these are the points I had. These are the notes that I made. I will speak of Bay d'Espoir. I thought that Bay d'Espoir­ I Yemember the first time I ever visited Bay d'Espoir, 1945.

I said, what a beautiful spot for farming. Well actually its whole economy was based on the land. Now Bay d'Espoir is twenty or thirty miles inland from the 5921

outline coastal areas. They did not know anything about fishing. They used to build boats up there because they had a good lumber yard and a good boat-building yard there, the Roberts brothers. But the main industry Sir, was logging, and they had their own subsistent farming, but just to show you how a person can get the wrong impression when he is not qualified to assess the economic importance or the economic liability, or the economic potentiality of certain place, I said what a beautiful spot for farming. Okay!

I was just an observer like any other bon. gentleman - probably in those days I thought I knew it all - as you get older you then realize how little you know. So,when I became the member for that district, I went into it a little more thoroughly and looked at the ground, looked at the terrain. And I said;by gosh you cannot spread out here, the hills are too sloping. Very little farm potential did Bay d'Espoir have. I saw the hills but I did not realize - so all right. I got the hon. ~finister of Mines and Resources - at that time I think it was the hon. Max Lane. I got him interested.

I believe he sent someone down. They had a little farm potential, but not too much. So last year I got the present hon. minister interested in it, and he sent the field worker '- Mr. Scott I think his name was, down to Bay d'Espoir, and they made a thorough survey. ~ty recollection of it is that there was only one area, and that was about ten miles in from Milltown, ten miles north of Milltown, one area - where you could really start a farm on a commercial basis. Now that was about in by Bernard's Brook - Right away Mr. Chairman, I knew then that the difficulties that one encounter~ in trying to start anything.

You see I had heard about this American who started a farm there in Bishop's Falls, or around Bishop's Falls. And I figured, well all right, if that fellow can do it, why can not someone down in Bay d'Espofr do it? I knew that Bay d'Espoir was crying out for an industry of that type. It is almost impossible -but anyway the only thing that we can do,as I see it, is to make available the information that we have in the Department of Natural Resources and AP,riculture - make available this information, and also make available the information regarding any aid, any grants that we can give 5922

rag~ ' people who are interested in starting farms. And let the people of their own initiative start these things. I do not see that the- -Government is supposed to have the answer to all the economic ills of this Province. It iB absolutely crazy to expeet it. Now Mr. Chairman, another point I was going to make. Yesterday 1 threw out a suggestion for the preservation and saving of the hides of caribou and moose. Not one hon. gentleman took me up on that, not one _ hon. gentleman said, well that is a good idea. There must be a small industry there up to say $100,000. It could be.

Here it is right before their noses. And another thing is canning. I am sure that you could start little canning industries in various parts of this Province. One bas to think of I think it was Mr. Evely, down in Comfort Cove, and he is making ~ a viable thing of canning turnip tops and well as other things. And 1 believe the bon. gentleman over there will certainly agree, that you could have turnip tops grown in almost anyone's back yard.

So I feel that if you _had a territory with enough people, say a population of about 5,000 people, and got as many as possible interested in growing turnip tops, right there at that particular season is the basis for a small industry. That is just 5923 JW

June lrd., 1970 Tape nu 1091 •... ' Hr. Woraall. turaip tops. How, if you have a small canning induatri, there are 1181lY thinsa: you could can beeta, potatoes, can carrots. 1 suppose there is no reason why you could not cllft turnips. _ S«t, I tldftlt, Hr. Chairman, that we should &11 get our heads together •• Kll. KUBPHY: With "teference to cBDDing. What happened to our local cBDDing plant? Is that still in operation? 1 am just wondering, 1 think, the •• KR. WORHELL: Mr. Chairman. 1 am slacl that the han. gentleman reminded me becauae I intended to mention that yesterday.

I remember, around the 1930's, Campbell& soups came here. Campbell• soups came here and they opened up a canning factory Oft't by Mudge' a, you "temember. where Bowring• use to keep their shipa on the Southside. Now, that went out of buaineaa. For what reuon, I do not lmow. There was also a canning factory atarted at Petriea Point by Connors, that was the late Senator Coanors. KR. SMALLAOOD: Mr. McClean. MR. WORHELL: Oh, McClean, I • aorry. I thank the hon. the Pruder for aetting the record straight. I thousht it vaa Connora. Wall, Hr. Chairman. there ia another thins. you see, that has been tried.

They_ were canning, I be~ieve, ... 11 herring at Petrie& Point. low why that folded, I do not lmow. It muat have been because they clid not uk.e profit and no busineaa is gains to continue, Mr. Chairman, on loaea •• MR. SMALLWOOD: Lack of •upply ••• MR. WOllHELL: This is atill a valid reuon why the plant closed up. So, when we are here debating iaauea, I think, what we should try to do Hr. Chai't'llan, ia to collect all the id8u tliatl ve can of the forty-two •IIbera who are here and cut out this vilification and name calling back and forth. Let us get our heada together and try and do samethins for levfoundland.

Thank you very auch. 59 2 4

June 3rd., 1970, Tape no 1098 Paae 2 Mil. CALLAHAN: Mr. Chainua, with raapect of vhat the boa. ••bar hu been aaying about attempting to do aoaething asriculturally in varioua areas of the Province. it might be useful for the House to know that last year on Bell Island, on an experimental basis. with the request of my colleague the member and the Bell Island Association. we atatioaed a student on Bell Island to try a ... 11 experiment. We assisted about 100 people, one atudent in agriculture. One of our subsidized students. We assisted about 100 people in ploughing and with advice.

They purchased their own seed, their ova fertilizer, their own lime~ They planted their ova crops and out of the 100 who were interested at the .,meat, 60 or 70 carried on, and on the baaia of our small investment of $4,000 to $s.ooo. they turned out aomethiag between $25,000 and $30,000 worth of crop&. We consider that to have been a 'ftry auccesaful experi111eat. So, there is &01111! field, Mr.

Chairaum, for that kind of thins and indeed the word hu gotten around and this suaaer we propose to put five student& in the field: one on Bell Island, becauae the au.ber of people interested has doubled from 100 last year to 200 this year. We have had requests and propoaala put up by the Bay d'Espoir Development eoa.ittee. I think my bon. friend from Hermitage has just referred to that. Alao. by the Port au Port Developiii!Dt Association, by the St. Brides and Cape Shore Develop.ent Group or the Placentia Bay area,inCluding BranCh and alao by a group from St. Mary~a. St. Mary's Bay.

Ve propoae to enlarge the experiaent thia year and to put five students in the field, because we do ~elieve that there is a field for self-help, providing, and this is where l depart from what WlY hoD. friend from Fortune lay aaid last night. There ia a field for self-help.

It ia feasible provided, I auppose, really three things: provided aome basic assistance, provided the willingness of the people to put in aome hard work theuelves and provided that they are prepared to do that under direction. · For au individual to set out, to proVide hi118elf with his needs froa a amall plot of ground without any help. without any di.,.ection, without any advice, I think is practically . ~ . . , 5925

JUDe Jrd., 1970 Paae 3 Tape no 1098 Mr: Callaha. uaworkable before it starts. It ie dead before it sta~ts. But on a co-operative basis, through a development committee, through an asricultural society such as the case on Bell Island last year, where they put the proposal together aod decided what their objectives were, decided what their needs were, and they came with a soUDd, co-operative approach to the thing to us. It was possible for us to give them some really minimal help, in a sense, because they did 110st of the VOTk, ad it was possible for them to have a good result and they, in fact, did.

They saved themselves a lot of 110ney, I think aad provided theaselves with some necessary activity in this case and gpt, I thiok, a great deal of satisfactioa out of it. This year, with a limited amoUDt of 110ney available, we will supply' students 1D the five areas that I have .eutioaed. We will establish de110ustration plots to illustrate the uae of insecticides, herbidides, fertilizers, new varities of vesetables, cultural practices in ngetable, h,- aud pasture production.

The students will work UDder the direction of the fieldman foT the particular area aad the progr .. will be carried out as I have said in extremely close co-operation emd really through the developaeat association in each case. Nov, Mr. Chairman, that is a far cry from either co~~~~~ercial agriculture or the old type market or subsistence 1titchen,gardeu variety.

I think it is possible to do somethins :Ia a liaited way, essentially, as aD extension progr .. along the lines 1 have just described, but I think it,in · no way, should b~ taken to aeaa that this will be the basis or caa be the baais for a c~rcial, asricultural industry. It is a--s of providing to people, alaost a hobby, a useful hobby, a self-help facility by which they can save soM 1110ney emd as I have said, usefully use their time, if they have time available to thea emd at the s... time, perhaps. save some 5926

, .. :Iuoe 3rd., 1970 Hr. Callahan • Tapa DO 1098 Paa• 4 .oaey. It is not to be taken as aoythina that can be the basis for a coaaercial, aaricultural venture. Mr. Cbaiman, last evening, I tried to rise on two or three occasions during the discussion of this

section of my estimates. I am afraid that each time the spirit moved .. , it apparently moved your Honour to look the other way, and I did not get a chance to say then some things that, perhaps, should have been said ill the context of last night's debate. I think I must disabuse the committee of any idea or suggestion that the Government, through ita agricultural policy, are paying attention only to one or two specific areas, the two that have been mentioned; namely, poultry aod bogs. Nothing, Mr.

Cbairun, could be further from the truth abd the estimates bear it out, and I draw the attention of the committee to these eatimatea, in the whole. We will be going through and looking at individual iteu, but I will ask the co•ittee now to bear ia Iliad. as we go through the whole picture, as it was presented lass night Which was aot a true picture and as I will preaeat it now. So, we can see it in the rouod and we will see that the case pat forward last night beara, in fact, Mr. Cbaii'II&D, ao relation to the true situation.

The ~. the member for Humber East built or attempted to build a case oa two eaaential poillta: ( 1) a aeries _ of what I might call, iab.lttered 0 even acurriloua lettera to the newspapers, attacks, pecaonal attacks and attack& oa policy, attacks on everybody and aoybody. That was the first thing; and (2) •• Mll. WELLS: Made those attacks •• MR. CALI.AIIAN: But that waa one of the bases for the argument and the boa. gentleman raleed it two or three U.11es during the eveoiog aod demanded aoavera aod deaaoded repliea.

And (2) hi.a quite uofouoded aod uo­ aupported coateation to which I have juat drawo reference; aaaely, the c:ooteation that the Govem•nt an intereated only ia the poultry aad hog raiaiog aspects of agriculture iD thu Provilice, aod I iDtend to deal with both 5927 ·I

June 3rd, 1970 Tape no 1098 Paae s Hr. Callahan. points~ I think to the satisfaction of the co-.ittee, in shoving the co.aittee that in neither case was the bon. gentleaan on good ground. How in respect of the first, Hr. Chairaan, I will be brief. I do intend to be unkind to the gentleaan to whoa be referred as the author of aa.e of these letters to the newapapers. I think that poor mao's situation is mirrored in his writings.

Let .a only say that, as the former Deputy Minister of Agriculture, be did initiate the arrangeaent with Newfoundland Poultry Producers Lillited to purchase their equipment and the correspondence ia in the files of the department, Hr. Chairman. There is no suggestion in that correspondence of anything improper, no augeation of any probleu.

It was aiapJ.J a aatter of the Government decidins, as a aatter of policy, in order to facilitate aspects of asriculture in this Province, to provide public facilities which rather than be tied up by l111ited companies, by private operators, would be available generally to the people participating in the asriculture industry. So, the GoverDJ~eDt owning property at Pleaa&Dtri.lle, which bad been leased to tbia company, and the Govel'llii8Dt wishing to obtain this property back in order to make it a public facility rather than a private one, had to .aka ao.e aettle.ent with the then occup.ers of that property.

So, the offer was made to that company to parchase their installed and ~rating equip.ent at ita depreciated coat and it is as simple aa that, Hr. Chairman - no impropriety, no akulduapry. It 1a as ai11ple u that, Hr. Chairman. It ia a simple matter of reimbursing the owners of the equip.ent for the equipment as it had been installed in that public property. Then following that the opening up of the property and the .. uip.ent to any poultry producer to use, as .the •aber of a newly for.ed co-operative. Jlow, Hr.

Chairman, we have hundreds of co-operatives in this PI'O"Iince, indeed .ore than twenty per cent of the entire population of this Prori.nce in one way or another are connected with co-operative&, whether 5928

JUDe 3rd. • 1970 Tape no 1098 Paae 6 Mr.

Callahan. it ia producer co-ops or conswaer co-opa or credit uuions or whatever they aay happen to be and the cardioal rule of a co-operative.is that any .ember of the public who qualifies by putting down his initial ahara capital and abiding by the reaulations or agreeing to abide by the resulationa and the by-laws of the co-operative. which he does by implication• when he puts down his initial share capital and agrees to provide any additbnal capital that be may have to subscribe over a period of time~ ~Y doing that,any citizen may become a seaber of a co-operative and no citizen may be barred from becoming a member of a co-operative on any ground 'that conflicts with that position.

The rishts and responsib~lities apply equally to .uy person who wishes to join. Co-operatives are co~letely open and. Mr. Chairman. there should be aod there is no restriction or no barrier that cau be placed against a persoa vbo wishes to join a co-operative that has not been placed against anyone wbo already t. a Mmber. Co-operatives are open to anyone as I say who qualif:J'ea~:." Yirtue ··of asreeing to the re&ulationa. by-laws. as they are laid down.

In this case. as we are doina right across this Province. we are trjjog to perauaG!farMrs. people in the agriculture industry,in the same vay. u I have indicated already in respect of these saall experiaental'~' operations that we have uudertaken. Certainly the best chance, and I think the only chance of having any agriculture in this Province is by virtu..: . of co-operation,. of supply IUD&ge.ent and of first class 11erchandise. If we do not have efficient co-operative operation and co-operative supply unaaeaut or aarketing and fir-e class efficient merchandising. our agriculture will simply not compete. Mr.

Chairman. the simple fact of the aatter ia that the Govern~~ent took back the property vbic:h it had inherited from the ·u.s.A.F. at PleaaantYille. co.,enaated the operatiag liaited company of the tt.e for ita aquip•nt - the GovemMnt could have gone and purchased other 5929

JUDe lrcl., 1970 Tape DO 1098 raae 7 Hr. Callahan. equipment at much higher costa, which could have beea rather silly, useless, a waete of money - compensated the company on the basis of the audit value of the equipment,depreeiate~aad turned the facility into a public oae and this was followed by the re-organization of the poultry company into a eo-operative which is completely open to anyAproducer who vbhes to join. Now, Hr. Chairmaa, the hoa. gentleaaa raised a question of the so- called adssiag equipment or the equipment that was aot there or the inventory that was not produced or aot doae. HR.

WELLS: That was Mr. Hurray's claia aot alae. HR. CALLAHAN: I realize that, Mr. Chairaaa. I have said that already. Thill is the second point that was raised froa the letter that the boa. gentleaan read last night. HR. WELLS: It has been spread all over the newspapers ia the laat aiz .mths. HR. CALLAHAN: I realize that and let me say that, you kDov, life is too short. I have aot the time end I do not iatead to reply to every crackpot thing that is written in a letter to the newspapers. You kaov, I would do aothing else. HR. WELLS: I agree vith that. MR. CAJ.IABAR Well, the boa. patleaan HR.

WELLS: But it is hardly crackpot ••• HR. CAI.I.ABAN: The bon. gentlellllll, last night, ukad why there had been DO replies, and I aa telling hi• nov, Mr. Chaiman, that there have ben all mamaers of things written and published end, no doubt, will continue - to be all aaDDera of thiDgs vrittea and published and whether they are true, false or iadiffereat, perhaps, is difficult for the editors of a ... papers to deteraiae, but the face is that they do set published end the fact~ also is,Mr. Chairman, that nobody has tiM to keep up with this 5930

JUDe Jrd., 1970 Tape DO 1098 Pa.. 8 Hr o Callaha. nuff ad to be contiDually tryiDg to ~te with it, acl I do DOt illteDd to try. By virtue of the fact that the boD. geDtle..a raieecl the point ill this Bouse last night, I -now replyillg to it. I - replying 110re to hia tha to the letters o I do not ill tend to try and reply to the letters. Kr. Chairman, in respect of that particular matter. the inventory or lack of it 1 wire buketa mel other utensils • I want to aay two things: the firat thing is that the instruction was 1 indeed 1 given to a fol'lll!r llllllapr wh~ by the way baa been quoted as alao feeling that there were things which should 'DOt•·bfta happened. It ia part of 5931

HON. W, R. CAl.LAIIAN (Hinilster of Mines, Agriculture & Resources): s group. The former manager as I understand it from the records was instructed to make the inventory, but no inventory was made. At the point at which the first letter to the editor appeared in the newspapers, an instruction was issued through the deputy minister, to the Farm Products Corporation, to go back and to carefully examine the entire situation as regards to that inventory. So an inventory was made Hr.

Chairman, and it was balanced in the light of new purchases or obselete equipment and all the rest of it, and in fact, and I make this statement now, and I hope I will not have to make it again_. 1n fact, not only was the value of the purchase verified, not only was the equipment in fact there, Hr. Chairman, but after the balancing, adjusting had been done to allow for new equipment purchase, new equipment obtained, there was in fact slightly more in the way of those particular assets than had in fact been agreed in the purchase.

So rather than not get value for the money spent in respect to that particular item, there actually was slightly more value than was required to be provided for the amount of money spent. And I would add to that Mr. Chairman, that in the first instance in any event - MR. CROSBIE: Affidavit supplies or what? MR. CALLAH~~: The hon. gentleman wants affidavits Mr. Chairman - I gather he is doubting what I have just said. He doesn't accept what I have just said. If affidavits need to be prepared, we will have them prepared, but I can go back prior to that Mr.

Chairman, and tell this House that the purchase,as I have said already, was on the basis of the audited value of the entire equipment in that building with the depreciation applied. Now there is an audited statement, there is an audited account, and if that is not enough, I do not know what i~. MR. WELLS: Is there an audited inventory? 5932

MR. CALLAHAN : Mr. Chairman. the auditor took account of the property in the building with the best advice of the officials of the Government as to its value. and that is what we have paid for. MR. WELLS: But was it the property as listed in the books of the company, or was there an - HR. CALLAHAN: Mr.

Chairman, I have just said while the bon. gentleman was out. that we have gone back and I am prepared to assure the House, and I do assure the House, that on the basis of the normal inventory done I agree somewhat later, but done as it should have been done by a former manager. who subsequently departed the scene, on the basis of the inventory done. something slightly in excess of the required value was received for the money that had been paid. MR. WELLS: This should have been said when these letters were in the paper. MR. CALLM~: Mr.

Chairman, I have just told the bon. gentleman that there had been dozens of such letters. I have been confronted by the gentleman who has authored some of them. As a matter of fact by three gentlemen who have authored some of them on two or three public occasions. One of them was before the Standing Committee on agriculture of the House of Commons. last year down in the Hotel Newfoundland, on I think a Wednesday evening.

And I was told at that time there were going to be action - there were going to be charges brought, and they were going to land in court, '"" and there were going toAwrits taken out and there were going to be all kinds of things. I had another consultation at the University about two months ago on the same thing. And the whole tenor of the remarks made ther~ in a public place,to me. as I have said already, was intemperate, embittered, and scurrilous. And I told that gentleman there publicly in that place Mr. Chairman, what I thought of him. So I have answered these charges several times in public.

I have never seen any record of my having replied to them. MR. WELLS: Never anywhere have I seen any • MR. CALLAHAN: \~ell 1 am simply informing the House, the Committee Hr. Chairllan, 5933

..J UllC ..J t .1.-, I \J rage 3 that I have been confronted in public with the press there by some of these charges, various charges at various times. Now I have said what I had to say in this Committee and in this House and I d; not intend Hr. Chairman, to get into it again. JW Now Mr. Chairman, I have said that the Government feel that the only way we can have any success is through formal co-operation. Now we realize Mr.

Chairman, that the farmers in this Province, in much the same \-lay • I suppose, as farmers in other provinces, but perhaps more so because as the hon. the hon. the Premier pointed out last night, that commercial agriculture has come to be in this Province at a time when costs and expenses and credit and everything else come at a much hiF;her cost than they did1 say, fifty years ago when other provinces perhaps lo~ere growing agriculture. So we have come into commercial agriculture in many respects at the roughest possible time. And we realize ~tr.

Chairman, it is not possible for farmers to supply themselves easily if at all, with all the things that are needed to have a first class modern viable agricultural industry, whether it be big or small. And it must almost necessarily be big. So the policy for several years very simply has been that if farmers will come together - if they will indeed co-operate, form themselves into producer organizations - MR. CROSBIE: They only need six,is it not? MR. CALLAHAN: Six or seven I think Mr. Chairman. We will enable them by the provision of facilities to operate on a viable and efficient basis.

So in addition to providing the public egg-grading facilities at Pleasantville, we have provided similar facilities at Bishop's Falls. We have purchased the equipment for similar facilities on the West Coast. And in addition to egg-grading facilities, we have provided for the Eastern Farmers Co-op, vegetable processing facilities at Pleasantville, and for the Central Farmers Co-op., vegetable processing facilities at Bishop's Falls, and we intend to provide similar facilities for the l-lestern Farmers Co-op., at Corner Brook. 5934

June J, 1!:1/U Tape f/1099 Page 4 JW and ceTtninly in the CorneT BTook area. MR. CROSBll~: What about the CodToy ~rea? The Codroy Valley. MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Chairman, we do not intend, nor cad we afford indeed, to provide processing facilities everywhere. They must be central complexes, because even as they are, they will not be used anywhere near-as they are established,anywhere near capacity.

They will need to be subsidized in their operation for periods of time, but we feel and we hope and our studies indicate that,over a relatively short period of time, they should be able to operate without subsidies, or at least on the basis of decreasing assistance. And at the moment we think two or three years is sufficient to get them into operation on a viable basis. MR. CROSBIE: Why Corner Brook? Why not say Stephenville Crossing or somewhere down there? MR. CALLAHAN: Because Corner Brook Mr.

Chairman, is the principal market area, and it is also the principal distributing area - the principal distributing point on the West Coast, and in addition to that, Corner Brook is a DREE special area. There is to be an industrial park in Corner Brook. There is to be an arterial road which will connect both with the highway and the port for all the various reasons, all the economic reasons, and all the reasons of transportation, central location. There are many reasons for deciding to go into Corner Brook, and Corner Brook is where we have decided to go. We could Mr.

Chairman, if we had lots of money and lots of a people and lots of producers and4 good market say in the Deer Lake area, and another in the Stephenville area, and another in the Codroy area, and another in Robinsons. We had those situations all over the Province. We could be in a position where we would have to supply these facilities in many places. But as it is, with the population as it is, the -distribution of population as it is - the economics of the situation,for many many reasons Mr. Chairman, we have to operate obviously on the basis of centralized facilities. And this is why Bishop's Falls was chosen.

This is why Corner 5935 -:l

Brook, the Corner Brook area, I am not sure where in Corner Brook as yet - we hope in the new industrial park in the Maple Valley orea, This ia why Corner Brook is the obvious place for a third processing facility. In addition to eggs and vegetables Mr.

Chairman, we also, if we are to make a success of the hog industry, and to take full advantage of what we have been doing with the swine station in the supply of hogs from ~hat facility, lf we are to enable farmers in Central and Western Newfoundland satisfactorily to participate, because there are some in each area now participating, but with some difficulties MR. CROSBIE: Some are not allowed - MR. CALLAHAN: No Mr. Chairman, it is not a question of some not being allowed to. It is a question of transportation costs. We have - we are producing Mr.

Chairman, at this swine breeding station, animals which are in certain critical respects disease-free, And we supply them to farmers on the basis, and this is the policy as it has been, and as it is at the moment - on the basis that these animals will be returned for slaughter to the Provincial abattoir which is Federally ~pproved and inspected, and where the proper pathological work can be done on the carcasses and on certain vital organs to ensure that there is no breakdown, that there is no deterioration - to ensure that the disease-free standard is being maintained. ~. CROSBIE: l.fuat about custom-killing?

MR. CALLAHAN: Custom-killing is a vastly different proposition from what I am talking about Mr. Chairman, not only that, custom-killing,in a sense, would work completely against what we are trying to do in creating a disease­ free, very high grade pork product. MR. l·1ELLS: Does the abattoir buy the grown pig - The abattoir,in effect, buys them back ~~- Chairman, and sells them and repays the farmers at a price which floats according to the Toronto market price. MR. tVELlS: In effect the provincial abattoir is, the only purchaser of pork products - 5936

MI. CALLAHAN: The only purchaser of pork products of animal• supplied to farmers under agreement from the swine station. • MR. WELLS: That is what I said. The only purchaser for hogs that have been previously supplied by the hog purchasers. MR. CALLAHAM: That is right. That is part of the agreement, and the reason as I have said, is that it is the only Federal Government approved inspected facility where we have the additional facilities for the pathological work that must be done. MR.

WELLS: So the persons in Western Newfoundland who buy the disease- free piglets or whatever they are when they are small - they must bring them back - MR. CALLAHAN: There has been a bit of a wrinkle in that in this sense - that we have been satisfied with one or two slaughter-houses have been pretty good. They more or less have been up to standard. MR. HELLS: Where are these? MR. CALLAHAN: I am thinking of one in particular at Summerside on the West Coast.

And while it is not possible to have,at the moment to have animals slaughtered in the slaughter houses certified, as the animals down here would be certified, we have been trying to get to that. And we have asked for the certification of certain slaughter houses. There are fees involved and there have been some. problems involved, and I do not think we have been able to achieve it yet. I think there were several places that we wanted approved. MR. WELLS: Has the Government considered an abattoir say somewhere like Deer Lake or Stephenville Crossing, or some central location west of Deer Lake? MR..

CALLAHAN: No. t~at we would hope to do, and this is what I am leading to Mr. Chairman, what we tried was in an interim way and we expected to arrive at this, but it did not happen at the same time that other things 5937

happened. In other words, some farmers in Central and WeAtern Newfoundland, wanted to get animals under the SPA quota. and rather than frustrate them. we decided that in advance of any facilities out there,.or any massive transportation subsidies, or at least any massive amounts of money to be used for transportation subsidies, we would try to get certain slaughter houses certified. So that two things are going on parallel lines. The matter of getting the slaughter houses certified slowed down somewhat - and the lack of vetenerians. MR. lmLLS: Are they of a quality that need to be certified? MR.

CALLAHM~: Yes, we think so. Particularly some of the ones that we have built,t~ recently in recent years. They are small, but they are very good. Public Health are in it too, but not in relation to animals as animals. But in any event we got a bit behind in trying to make these arrangements, and in the meantime we did let some farmers have some animals in the hope that the other thing will be ready in time. And this did not happen and this has created a problem for one or two farmers as the bon. gentleman may know. So Mr.

Chairman, what '1-Te hope to do is in addition to the vegetable and the egg-grading - the vegetable processing and egg-grading sides of these complexes is also to put some slaughtering facilities in that same complex, and not separate it from it for the obvious reason that it is more economical to have it there. The same management, the same administration - part of the same complex. And I think we will have to do that perhaps rather quickly, again providing funds. He do have in the Estimates, in these Estimates Mr. Chairman, as the House approves, some starter funds for the facilities on the \Vest Coast.

We hoped to have it last year, but we had to finish off the one in Central Newfoundland for the beginnings of a complex at Corner Brook. It might be on a quite smaller scale or somewhat smaller scale, but really we have now, and we have had for about a year, a very competent agricultural engineer - something we never had before. And we are 5938

looking at tho pro11poct of aome kind ot modulAr daailln buildinn that could easily bo added to it, But the point is Mr. Chairman, that these faci}ities are being provided near the principal market and distributing centers around the Island, entirely at public cost. They are being turned over to the New­ foundland Co-op services for co-operative operation at a nominal fee. We are providing assistance. MR. CROSBIE: Who are "they" by the way? MR. CALLAHAN: Ne~~foundland Co-op Services Mr. Chairman, are the grandfather organization of the ·· co-op movement in the Province.

They are the top co­ ordinating body to khich are elected - at the annual meeting events yes - directors representing all the co-ops in the province. MR. CROSBIE: They have no relationship with the Government? MR. CALLAHAN: No relationship whatever with the Government, except in this respect Mr. Chairman, that we continue to give them an annual grant which will appear in the Estimates ~ we have in this past year to help them with their organization, loaned them two of our senior co-op men who are long-term employees, to assist in various aspects of their operations.

And we are assisting them to a degree, not providing the working capital, but assisting them to obtaining working capital in respect of the complexes already in existence at St. John's and at Bishop's Falls, and I haveno doubt we will do the same in respect of Corner Brook. We also give them assistance for at least the first couple of years on their overhead and running expenses. So all these things Mr. Chairman, are done in the hope and expectation that farmers will indeed come together and work together, and we think they will.

But the essential objection and the only objection t~~~- we hear _ re~lly, is from persons such as the writer of the letter of the bon. gentleman referred to last night and two or three others, who continue to tell the public we are independent farmers, and we are being done in by this foul Government, who 5939

JUDe .}' 1'1/V ·rape 11 1U~'1 are insisting other farmers do this and this and this. And the simple answer to them is, that if they want that same assistance Mr. Chairman, they are quite free to join. They cannot be prevented from joining, that they have the rip,ht to join on the same basis as other farmers who are naw in these co-operatives. So there is not very much to argue aboutiD that. But these are some of the things that we hear.

This is the kind of thing that is casting shadows on what we think and what we are convinced and what I hope this House, this Committee now will be convinced, is a good approach to this problem, of trying to put the agricultural industry we have, which I suppose is the smallest in Canada, but then we are the smallest or next to smallest province in Canada. But I hope the Committee will agree that this approach,Mr. Chairman, is perhaps the only one that can put agriculture in Newfoundland on a sound viable efficient basis. And this is what we are trying to do. We are not discriminating against anyone.

We are saying to the so .. -called independent farmers, if you want these particular benefits, the only way you can get them is in concert with others like yourself. So please come in if this is what you want. But if that is not what you want, and you want to stay out, please do not knock what we are trying to do. Please do not say that it is fraudulent or that it is discriminatory,or that it is unfair. Now Mr. Chairman, I want to make some reference to remarks that were made here last night, and to carry on in a sense briefly as to where the hon. the Premier left off.

Because I have some feeling from things that have been said here - things I have heard on the radio and on television last night, that th~position or approach or philosophy,as annunciated by the leader of the Government last night~has not been very well 'understood. Let me say this Mr. Chairman, that very recently the Canadian Agricultural Task Force, which worked for · three years, about three years, under the head of MacDonald College of McGill University, presented its report to the Government of Canada 1 last Fall. And that report was just made public about a week ago.

And there are many thi1gs in that report - there are many recommendations in the report, frankiy~Mr. Chairman, there are so many, and so many implications to the findings and recommendations that I think it is going to take some time to sift it nut 5940

June 3, 1970, Tape 1100, apb MR. CAL~: And indeed the federal minister already has said that it might take another agricultural congress and all that that implies, eight or nine hundred or one thousand peopleftom all over Canada spending days sitting down looking at and reading and trying to assimilate and understand papers.done by committees which would take the task force report and break it down again as was done a year ago on its preliminary proposal. We are not alone when we say that we do not completely know yet what the effects will be. One of the things the task force said Mr.

Chairman, and I think we can accept them as an authority, is that while twenty per cent of the population of Canada,in this year, todayJare involved in agriculture, are part of the agriculture community in this country, twenty per cent of the people of Canada, . one-fift~, four million or so, that by 1990 the per centage will be down to four per cent. From twenty per cent now, down to four per cent twenty years from now.

Now, as we said last night, there will be people who will wail, moan, groan, who will regret it, who will feel that they better quickly stop the world and get off, and would if they could but , the fact.Mr. Chai~is , that this is the trend DOt only in this Province . but in this country and all over North America, for all the reasons that were spelled out last night.

The trend is, and what it is leading to is, that within twenty years instead of one-fifth or twenty per cent of the population of Canada being bound up, involved economically and in their lives with agriculture, in twnety years time it will be only fo~r people out of every hundred in this country and the population of course will have grown considerably at the end of those :twenty years. So Mr.

Chairman, it is not unrealistie, it is not disloyal, it is not any slur on agriculture, it is not derogative, it is not unsympathetic to agriculture to look at the facts as they are and to say that this is in fact the trend. Nobody has said.Mr. Chairman, do not plant potatoes. 5941

~une ~. 1~1v, 1ape ~1uv, rage ~ -- apn Nobody said that all the farmers of Newfoundland who are ·(some of them right now)planting potatoes should not plant any potatoes,that they should atop. Nobody has said that we cannot grow . root crops. MR. CROSBIE: What are you doing to help it, that is the question? MR. CALLAHAN: I will get to that Mr. Chairman very shortly MR. CROSBIE: Good man! MR. CALLAHAN: Nobody has said do not grow potatoes, that we cannot grow potatoes.

Nobody has said do not plant root crops or that we cannot grow root crops, because the Government know better I think than .. anyone what we are doing in those respects. We have said essentially~Mr. Chairman, that the old idea,of everybody with a potato patch behind his house,is not going to be revived and secondly, unless ••••••••••••• MR. CROSBIE: Everyone agrees on that. MR. CALLAHAN: Unless you have an efficient and I might say well financed, vell equipped agriculture industry with good,efficient marketing and merchandising you cannot survive. One of our basic problems,Mr.

Chairman, up untill now,and it will persist,is that as far as pota~oes are concerned we are sitting cheek by jowl with the largest, the biggest potato~producing industry in Canada,in the Provinces of Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick. They can produce cheaper than we can produce because of sheer volume. They produce huge surpluses which they have up till now been able to dump in here at their whim and it is pretty difficult in that context Mr. Chairman for us to survive.

This does not mean as I said, and I repeat, it dOes not mean that we cannot do anything in respect of potatoes or other crops or indeed of anything else. I will say this, there is a growing philosophy across this country, there is a philosophy which is running more and more through policies of the Government of Canada which filter right down to farm credit corporations and other agencies. what is kn~~~.

Chairman ' as the principle of comparative advantage which says in effect that if New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island on a cost benefit basis, on the basis of sheer economics can produce potatoes, more, better, cheaper than ve can produce them, then we should not be producing them. 5942

"une .J, utu, ·.1.ape .uvu, .Paae 3 -- apb They aey the aame thinR about •18•• the aeme thing about milk and the same thing about beet, the sama thing about aheep, the aame thing about anything. MR. CROSBIE: Would the minister pemit a question? Is that not the same theory as the Gordon Commission ten or fifteen years ago. We can all make a better living in Ontario, so we all move to Ontario is it not? p. CALLAHAN: I cannot disagree with the bon. gentleman's suggestio~ Mr. Speaker.

I think it is, but what bothers me, and what I feel, and what we have said time and time again :~·-at Federal-Provincial conferences, at the agriculture congress, at Federal-Provincial meetinRs, at meetings here, at private meetings, in correspondence, and everywhere that we get the chance to say it, to the Standing Committee of the House of Commons, we maintain and we continue to maintain Mr.

Chairman that applied strictly across the board as the economists, the technologists, the technocrats• the computers wish to apply it, the principle of comparative advantage runs diametrically up against the whole primciple of Confederation, the whole principle of equalization, the whole principle that a youngster born in the city of Ontario should have really no greater opportunity than a youngster born in Flatrock, or, to put it the other way round, the child born in Flatrock should have as good • ~. chance as the child in Ontario. We think it does, we think that there are limits to this thing Mr.

Chairman, just as there are limits to what Mr. Gordon proposed, to which the bon. gentleman has ~eferred,which from an academic point of view, from a high economic point of view?no doubt, and I think everyone will agree. was quite accurate - a quite accurate assessment of our problem in this country. Are we going to wind up Mr. Chairman with all the people living in the centre and nobody on the extremity. I suppose we could have lots of national parks in that event and that is all we would have.

We have attempted,with some success I think, and I hope with more success, to on the one hand persuade, show the economists that they aEe right until you inject the human factor and then we have attempted to 5943 build on that and say that there are areas in agriculture where we can be

" . · June 3, 1970, Tape 1100, Pa1• 4 -- apb extremely successful, where the comparative advantage is in our favour. This I think is what the bon. the Premier was saying last night Mr. Chairman, that there are areas where we have proof that we can excel. There are things we can do better in agriculture in this Province than you can do them in other Provinces - in other parts of Canada. We can have not only in one year Mr. Chairman, two or three years ago, but four or five years running the best pork products, ~- the best output of pork products in terms of quality in this whole country of Canada.

That we have gotten into a position where we can export and successfully compete in eggs, that there is very much we can do in the revitalization of the sheep industry. There are things Mr. Chairman, that we can do extremely well. Now there is something that we can do that ve may not do extremely well, but which we are not going to cut off tomorrow and say, " okay, we agree all the potatoes will be produced in Prince Edward Island or New Brunswick." We right now only produce at the most thirty per cent of our requirements of potatoes. AN BON. MEMBER: Thirty per cent? MR.

CALLAHAN: About thirty per cent, somewhat less than thirty per cent. AN BON. MEMBER: How does that compare over the years? MR. CALLAHAN: Well I would think it is much lower if you look at the other years Mr. Chairman from the point of view of market value, but from an agricultural - a commercial agriculta~l point of view, and this is what ve are considering really .;. our potato"production is about thirty per cent of ·what we consume and it is worth about $1 million a year.

Now the attitude I think that ve take on this very simply is . that,if we can produce $1 million worth of potatoes for our own consumption,that is $1 million we do not have to export out of the Province to pay for some­ body elses potatoes. If we can increase that ve should. lbe question that arises Mr. Chairman is at what costt If it comes to the point that even with the $1 million recirculating in our own _ Province, it is costing us more to have our own potatoes,then we have arrived at the knub of the problem.

I do not think it will happen in quite that way, I think it will be the same kind of slow attrition that is · 5944

happening elsewhere in the country unless. unless we get into the efficient, viable kind of situation I have mentioned and we can cut costs, we can still put a good product on the market that can compete, and unless we have coordination with the other Provinces and some understanding some basis of understanding so that we can control this dumping factor - because there should be some compensation for that. This Mr.

Chairman, was one of the principal reasons for the proclaimation very recently of the natural fa~products Natural Products Marketing Act and the appointment of the farm - the Newfoundland Farm Products Marketing Board. That board not only will serve as an overseer of supply management schemes in this Province, it also will board­ mate with other boards in other Provinces and with the new national marketing council to see that we do have some protection against dumping from other places. The House might be interested, I have mentioned potatoes Mr.

Chairman, about one half million sacks last year of $1 million, turnips about the same, half million sacks $1 million, cabbage 8,000 tons, $1 million, other vegetables about 500,000 sacks $1 million. 1001 000 pounds of wool $60,000. 11 million dozen eggs $5.5 million, 2 million pounds of beef worth $1 million. Poultry meats, two and one half million pounds worth three quarters of a millio~. One half million pounds of lamb worth one quarter of a million dollars. 3 million pounds of pork worth $1 million. MR.

SMALLWOOD (J.R.): Have the bon. minister go~the figures showing the numbers of persons getting a living out of those classifications? Mlt-. CALLAHAN: Not a breakdown Mr. Chairman, but generalq I can give the figure. Just to conclude this, whole milk, one and one half million gallons worth $1,725,000., blueberries, 2 million pounds at twenty-five_cents a pound one half million dollars. 15,000 mink pelts worth $200,000., and that is around Mr. Chairman, roughly $15 million. Now that production gives a full or part-time livelihood to some 3,500 people in this Province.

I say full or part-time because, actually I think the full time figure would be closer to 2,000 people. Now we~ 5945

. June 3, 1970, Tape 1100, Page 6 -- apb in our context Mr. Chairman, we only have one half million people in this Province MR.CROSBIE: I am trying to list the number of people, how many did you 1ay? MR. CALLAHAN: 3,500 full and part-time, 2,000 full-time. We are oDl.y the equivalent,population wise,of a medium size North American city. As the Premier said,somewhere recently 1 we could drop down in the suburbs of Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver and they would not know until the next morning,until they heard it on the Open-Line Show or somebody told the Newfoundland Government.

We are not very big, and 2,000 persons in this industry full-time or a 3,500 person industry full and part-time which I think would work out to something over 2,500 full-time jobs is not to be sneezed at. If ve are doing it on the basis of keeping in this Province the $15 million which otherwise would be going elsewher~then I think we are getting a double benefit. So that is somewhat Mr. Chairman, the story. MR. SMALLWOD: Has the minister asked -would the minister yield a moment. Would it not be a good idea if he.were to ask the- mJ staff­ Mr.

Power and his staff to make a study of the multiplier effect of 2,500 jobs in agrieulture,how· many others would as a consequence be enabled to make a living because there is a multiplier effect in agriculture. I doubt if it would be one for one, but it might be half of one to one or even quarter of one to one. If it were quarter of one you add another 600 or 700 persons who are making a living and this runs all through our society. Every job means another job or half a job, or quarter of a jab or even two jobs or three, depending on the multiplier in a particular classification.

This should make a fascinating study. MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Chairman, indeed we have some general figures and 11e are right now act\lally, working through the Agricultural Economics CoUIIdl is it? AN HO~ER: The Canadian Agricultur~ Economics Research Council .t 5946

· June 3, 1970, Tape 1100, Page 7 -- apb Canada. MR. CALLAHAN: The Canadian Agriculture Economics Research Council of Canada right now Mr. Chairman are doing a study for us. MR. SMALLWOOD: But they - the - - ~ - they will apply formuli and the yardsticks of a national character

whereas our own people have done it in dozens of occupations and they were thoroughly familiar with the local criteria, the local yardsticks. MR. CALLAHAN: I will be pleased to avail of the assistance •••••••• MR. SMALLWOOD: Have them check the others. MR. CALLAHAN: Of the economic development people Mr. Chairman, and let me say· this too, that in - I do not want to ge into detail at this time, but in a very massive submission to DREE, we have had to have this general kind of information and we now have to and are getting specific information in order to support this submission we made there.

It may be that some of this is being done, but I certainly will as a matter of interest refer this to our economic and research branch people. I am told incidentally Mr. Chairman, that the generally accepted multiplier, the average accepted multiplier in agriculture is about 2.4. Whether that applies •••.••••••• MR. SMALLWOD: Is what? MR. CALLAHAN: 2 • 4 MR. SMALLWOOD: Two and one half to one MR. CALLAHAN: Roughly two and one half to one. 2.41. But that is national and involves equipment manufacturers, fertilizer~ companies MR. CROSBIE: Dairy farmers MR. CALLAHAN: All kinds of things.

It is not reliable obviously in our case. MR. SMALLWOD: Two and one half to one. It would be that nationally yes. In the United States it would probably be a little higher. MR. CALl.AHAN: It probably would, although on the Prairies Mr. Chairman, where ~Ju have the delivery of wheat this would go right down into the railways, the shipping comple~a ••••••••• 5947

June 3, 1970, tape 1100, Page 8 -- apb MR. S~~LWOOD1 And in the U.B.too MR. CALLAHAN: And in the u.s.aa well, but in Canada, I think that would probably be vastly inflatable. Mr. Chairman, I had begun to aay that we are not telling our farmers in this Province to get out of root crops, indeed we are doing just the opposite. By building these agricultural complexes, very large ebments of whieh will concern themselves with whieliwill handle vegetables, will process vegetables, we in fact are saying just the opposi .te to what was suggested 5948

June 3rd., 1970 Tape no 1101 Page 1 Hr. Callahan. here last night by .y bon. friend fro• Buaber East. We are saying to faraers, in this Province, do produce. Produce all you c:an. That ia where the tale hangs. But that is what we are saying. Produce all JOU c:an, and we will give you, free of charge, these facilities whereby you could put a better product on the market for the consumer. So, Hr.

Chairman, to suggest that we are trying to discourage root cropping at a time when we, in fac:t, are spending very large amounts of the public: funds to put in complexes to process root crops is to say the least a little silly. Hr. Cbairaan, we have first class root crop faraera in Newfoundland today. You can go right across the Island. The gentleman who was in the sallery last night, I do not see hi• now, Mr. Legg~from Robinson~ is one of them, lie and his brother. We have them in the B1111ber Valley - the Atkinson& and others. You go up into Cormack.

I was up there the other day - the people like the Upwards, Pearce Upward and his son or dawn into Bishop's Falla, in the new Woodale area. People like Bill Barnett or Tom Brown in Lethbridge who by the way, Mr. Chairman, bas the biggest single acreage under crops in the Province. Then you come eaat and you set down into Lethbridge, &8 1 have just .aD.tioned and then you COlle on east, and you get down into the St • .John'• area, the Avalon Peninsula - the MacDonald&, the Lestera and others who were mentioned here last night. Mr.

Chairman, we are not talking about them, wha we talk about the day of aabaietence agriculture being done. These are people who still are growins. We are producing, but Mr. Chairman, there-are also people who are finding i~ tough. I doubt very much that without the asaiatanc:e progr ... that exist, (and I will get to them now, because I have been asked about them again this moring) none of these farmers, the best farmers ~ have in this Province, the ones I ban just mentioned, the Legges, the Upwards, the Atkinaona, the Browns, the Barnetta, the Hac:Donalda and the Leatera ~noue 5949

Juu 3rcl. • 1970 Tape llO 1101 Paa• z Mr. Callahan. of thea could exist without the uabtance programa that are provided, and in terM of what we are doing - these people. Mr. ChairMDo are in abed farming. I should say that. So• of thea are in dairy faraing.aa we.n aa root crops. Soae of thea have some livestock. as well aa, root crops, but they are baaed on root cropa.

They are baaed on large areas of land. and the expense that goes with it • the probleaa that go with it and aa I say. they could not exist without the senerous assistance prosrama that we have 1 which I should say, we would like to aake if we could do it even aore seneroua. Bow to refer again. Mr.

Chairman, to the queation of whether we are concerned at all about root crop farains, we say this: that out of tbe estiaates 1 which we are now considering for the division of Agriculture. ancl if we add in 1 which ia not shown in these wtea, an aaount of IIODey in the CoiiiDUDity ancl Social Devalopaeut Vote for co..anity pastures, we add the two a.ounta together and we aat ao..,here in the area of about $1.4 aillion, you will find, Mr.

Chairaan 1 that nearly $1.2 million ia dewted to activitiea 1 proar ... , uaiatance of all kiDde that ia clirectecl apecifically ancl solely toward• the aasiatance of root crop far.tns 1D thia P~vince. The only aipificant aount of 1110uey that ia there ia the votes at all that ia not directed to that end ia the $250,000 allocated for ho& breeding. 'rhat ia the only aipificant uaount. There are other ••all amounta. But what it co•• down to, Hr.

Chairaan, ia that eishty-five per cent or Diaety per cent of the total wte of the clivision of Asriculture, aa nov preaented in the Houae, ad it ia not too far out of line with lAet year's estimate&, is directed towards crop farmins and baa nothias whatever to do with either poulJty or with hose. I - sorry that the bon. the Mllber for Hu.ber East ia not in hie aeat, becauae thi• waa his tour de force ~ut · nisht. Thia vaa his principal ars-nt that there ia no concern for a root crop ~ara. M I aay asaill, Mr. Chaiftlllll 1 eishty-five to ninety per cent of tbe' 5950

June 3rd., 1970 Tape no 1101 Paae 3 Mr. Callahan. budaet of the divi1ion of Aariculture of the e1timate1 of the diviaion of Asdcultun, directly and indirectly, provide for root crop faraing and the committee will see that, as we go through the estimates and this is why I have already asked the committee, and I now aak the committee again to bear thia in aind, ill the round, in the whole, as we go through the individual it.... I am talking, Mr.

Chainum, about everything from agricultural education, where we, in this progra .. over a nu.ber of years, aent I think 109 students, agricultural students of to uaivereity and paid for everyone of them - 109 students in relation to our, again I say it, small agriculture iuduetry, I think is a lot of studente. We have paid their entire expeuees. I think we paid their travel, their books, their tuition, their living allowaacea, board - w p&J it all Mr. Chaiman, ..

Bow .. uy of these people, I wonder, would COM back and be involved in hoB production or egs production - how a&nJ of the 1091 I would say DOt a half cloaeu, Mr. Chair.an. Virtually, everyone of the etudeuts baa. come back and gone into agricultural pursuits other tha poultry and hos production. So that 1e anothez: indication, Mr. Chairun. The bon. seutleman was quite wrong laet night. Be aimplJ did DOt 1aunr what w waa talking about. I will tell the bon. sentleun asain or bas he been liatening? Will he tell the far.ers what he hal beard?

Wtll he IOlOUt and tell the farmers the kind of thins we heard hoa hia last nishtT MI. WELLS: '.I listen to the famere. I do DOt tell them, because I do DOt bow anythins about fam1.11a. I listen. MR. CALLAHAN; Mr. ChaiZ'IIIIl, the bon. aentleman can recopize facte, when th8J are preeented to him. At leut, I hope he can. Mr. Chair.an, boll. gentleMn on the other eide are a curious lot. Tbe7 only accept the answers they want to accept. if the aDIWIIrs. ~hat they pt are not what theJ anticipate or hope for or pr~ for, then~ Mr. Chair..., 5951

JUDe lrd., 1970 Tape DO 1101 Kr. Callahan. the answer to the facta are wrong. The uevera are wrong. There ia no truth in them, and they are just UDacceptable. Well this is, I suppose, nothing new for an opposition, but it is new for an opposition to reject everything a everything that is provided to them in the vay of information that does not completely suit their predisposition as to what they will accept. MR. CROSBIE: We were just about to congratulate the tdnister of his ••• Hll. CALLAHAN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I • glad that I said what I said, because consratulationa from the bon. gentle..a would 81DOUDt, somehow, I do DOt think realistically, but s011ehov to some small tiny degree - the · last thing I want is congratulations from the bon. gentleman. 1 aay again, Mr. Chair...., the vast bulk, eighty-five per cent, at least, of the vote thia year, as last year, for the division of Agriculture baa nothing whatever, absolutely nothing whatever to do with either poultry or bog production and in addition to that. Hr.

Chai'fll81l, as I have just aaid, 109 students, agricultural students were sent to an agricultural college of whoa leas than one-halt dozen, certainly leas than one-half dozen have COlle back and become inwlved in bog or egs production. So the bon. gentle..a is quite wrong on that. MI. WELLS: Give us the figures. MR.. CAI.LABJ.N: In terms of land clearlas ·;, wht·c:h is our biggest~ .tngle expense, Hr. Chatman, it should be DO aurpriae to the committee that bog raising and poultry production do not use land except the land which the buildings are on.

As far as land clearing is concerned, it is completely Uaneeeaaary. MR.. WELLS: Land clearing is the biueat expense? MI. CALLAIIAlf: Land clearins is the bigpst,aingle expeue we have Mr. Chairman. When we talk about land clearins, we are not simply talking about the 5952

JUD& 3d., 1970 Tape ao 1101 Hr. Callahan. aJDOUDt of money, the subsidy paid to fanaen in boauaes. We are talking about pasture lands broP,ght into production and maiataioed. We are talking about bog lands which form part of them and in these votes, we have $100,000, $65,000 and, 1 think, $100,000. MR. CROSBIE: $265,000. Hll. C.ALLARAN: So there is $300,000, just about ia that alone and that, Mr. Cbainum, does not include the subaidy on l1111estone. It does not illclude other land fertility prograu. It does not iDclude agricultural surveys. It does not include equip .. ot demonatrations.

It does not iDclude our purchase and supply to farmers 1at either reduced costs or no '~ cost.,of specialized equipment, which they could aot afford themselves. Hr. Cbairaan, as I have aaid, the boo. gentle .. o, siaply, do not know what tbay are talkiDg about. ~· CROSBIE: Ninety per cent. It is not niDety per cent. Hll. WELLS: Would the bon. minister perait a question? HI. C.IOSBIE: Not aywbere near it. MI.. WELLS: Before he sits clown so we can ban this tbiDg cleared. Pap (40) of the estimates. The land c:leariDg, the 110st that there is for root crops, the most is $142,000.

It us under Itea 815-05: Maintenance of Equi~nt, Tranaportation of EquipMnt, Fuel and Oil, Wages and Travelling, Subsidized Land CleuiDg ~ - $141',100. Up above in Benlopment, 815-04: Blueberry ·, Fu-r Faru, Pasture Lauds for Allimals - $55,000. Boslauda, $100,000. I do not mow what they are doiDg with thea or whe-re they are beiDg used or if there is auy root cropping iD thea or not. The aost that there is 1a $142,000, _·.possibly, plus a portion of the $100,000 UDder boslands. Bog breediDs alone - hog breeding alone, apart fr011 all the other aubaidies ad &ftrythiDg else, bog breeding alone is $249,000.

Nov how can •• Hll. CAI.IJJWi : The bon. gentleaan agaiD is only listeniDs or is only hearing vbat he wants to hear. I just sot through saying, but I have not sat·• 5953 .

Juoa 3rd., 1970 Tapa no 1101 Pas• 6 Kr. Callahan. Mr. Chairman, that eighty-five per cent of the funds are de~ted to root cropping. 1 did not say that. Hl. CROSBIE: You implied it. Hl. CALLAHAN: I said, very clearly, Mr. Chairaum, twice and now this i8 the third time. The bon. gentlemm claimed last night that all we were concerned about was poultry and hogs and I am saying, and I have just said tvica and I will say it again, that every farmer in this Province, I suppose, without exception who baa livestock also h .. root crops.

It is mixed farwdng all the way except iD some cases in respect of poultry and perhaps bogs. But moat farmers have mixed farming operations. They depend upon ourcoamunity pastures to pasture their cattle or their animals for a large portion of the year while their own lands are free to grow grass or perhaps even to grow crops. The point is that we are talking about farmets engaged 1D root crops who have other activities, mixed farming activities and without the assistance of root crops could not exiait, Mr. Chairman, because take that out of their operations and the rest of it could not hold itself up.

You cannot take root crops out and say that 80 and so is not setting any help with his cattle or take his cattle out and say that he is only setting help with hie root crops. It is mixed fandDg, Hr. Chair.an. Ve do not have predominant farming operations in this Province. p•obably MR. 'WELLS: Is it true that 3,000 acres"' vi~l supply all the potatoes the Province needs 'l Hl. CALLAHAN: It all depends on what one means by probably wath. MR. 'WELLS: Vell economic size fams and 80 on. MR. CALLAHAN: I do not know. You would have to have 3,000 acres. You would have to provide for rotation.

You would have to have first class ideal conditions. You would have to have the equipMDt . 1111d, of course, you would put out of production . every sull farmer who now is dravillg ••• 5954

June Jrd •• 1970 Tape no 1101 Mll. WELLS: I • not talking about one farm. I a not talking about one fara. I aa talking about eighty 1 fifty acre farms. Mll. CALLAHAN: It. perhaps. could be done on 6,000 acres in ideal conditions with everything that I have mentioned available but tbe difficulty of that is that you would close out every farmer who is srowiag potatoes. HR. WELLS: No! No! enlarge the exisitiag ones. MR.. CALLAHAN : But they are all over the Province. MR. WELLS: Sure, enlarge them. Bow many are there? MR. CALLAHAN: Well that is another situation. Thea it becomas uaeconomic.

This is the problem we went through last night. MR. CRIJs:\IE: No sensible answera. MR. CALL \BAN: This ia the problea we weat into laat night where tha land is 1ot available in sufficiently large quantities for the farmers to have a vlable operation. Mll. WELLJ: A farmer tells me that he can 1ll8ke an economic go of it on fifteeen acres, now suppose he baa fifty~ Be says that it would be wonderful. HR. CIOSBIE: Baa the minister finished his remarks. MR. CALLAHAN: No, I am not. · Mll. CROSBIE: Can somebody alee talk this afternoon, or ia the ainiater soiag to keep it up the whole afternoon. Mll.

CALLAHAN: No, I have not too much longer to go. It now being 1 p.m. the committee recessed until 3p.m. 5955

PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 94 4th. Session 34th. General A$St!mbly VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, JUNE 3, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

June 3 1970 Tape 1102. page 1. The Committee of Supply resumed at 3:00 P.M. MR.NOEL: Before the committee resumes I am sure bon. members would like me to express a word of welcome to the wives and directors of the Uoi~ersity Extension Services of Canada who are in the Speaker's Gallery. These ladies are visitors to our shores. They come from points between Nova Scotia and Calgary. I am sure bon. members would like me to express a word of welcome on their behalf. And also to Rev. Jesperson from Fogo. You are very welcome! MR.CALLAHAN':' As the song ~oes,and so it is to conclude and to finish.

I would like to add a few points to what I was sayin~ this morning when the committee rose, by way of completin~ a general review of the policies the operation of the division of Agriculture. As the committee rose, Mr. Chairm,n. I had just indicated the size of the agriculture industry in relation to the poPulation. The employment factors involved therein, generally speakin~ the value of the industry to the Province, pointing out what we must do in the first instance,as the hon. the Premier put it last night, to lay stress upon .the thin~& we can do well~ the things in which we have the best chance of success.

But that is not to say that we· stop everything else, that we discourage everythinr. else, because we do have opportunities for success, perhaps at a somewhat lesser degree,relatively speakfnv in other areas. I also Mr.

Chairman had indicated that,contrary to some thin~s that were said here last night,on the other side of the House, contrary to the impression that was given, that the Government are concerned only with one or two particular aspects of ~griculture, That the great bulk of the estimates, of the votes, the monies provided to the division this year,as last year and the year before,and I would think next and the year after that, and the year after that, will be devoted to the sectors of the commercial agriculture industry other than the poultry sector and the hog sector of the industry.

That is true in these estimates as it was last year and as it will be certainly next year. I have said that if it were not for the various assistance programs (and this is not unique, of course ~r. Chairman, in this Province. It is done across Canada. It is done in .very country that has a~riculture) if it were not for these assistance programs of various kinds,from assistance to students to 5956

June 3 1970 Tape 1101 pa~e 2. all the other on-goin~ assistance programs These other sectors of . a~riculture,other than the ones to which reference particularly was made, last ni~ht,could not in fact survive. Indeed the only sector of agriculture in this Province · tdday does not ~et assistance, except in so far as it has the use of public grading facilities, packaging facilities, and the facilities that are necessary to provide for co-operative supply management, fhe only sector that does not get assistance in the usual way is the pouLtry industry.

And I would think that very soon,in relative terms,~he hog industry will be next on the list. It will not get assistance because it has the best change of quickly becoming viable. It is in the other areas, in root crops and mixed farming,Mr. Chairman, that the assistance is necessary and will go on into the foreseeable future. Now what kind of assistance are we talking about? We are talking, Si' about the students that I mentioned this morning, 109 students, to date,whose entire agriculture education has been provided for, paid for,out of public funds.

We are talking about various grants to organizations, societies. We are talkin~ about the testing and re-testing programs for bovine tuberculosis and brucellosis, for compensation for the purchase of reactors,for the operation of marketing facilities in St. John's and at Bishops Falls, slaughter- houses, community storage, land fettility schemes, supply of agricultural limestone. The farmers buy at $2.00 a ton but it costs the depart ment to purchase anywhere from nine to eighteen dollars a ton. For the impro~ement of livestock, for bonuses on pure bred sires.

For subsidized veterinary service~ which the farmers pay a token amount, for land preparation, for land clearin~ There is no where in Canada today, Mr. Chairman,we have heard about the difficulty of obtainin~ land for agricultural purposes.--There is no where in this country, perhaps no where in the world,I do not know, certainly in Canada there is no where where ladd is made available as freely and as easily, for agricultural purposes,as it is in this Province.

And not only is the land made available virtually free of charge but in addition to that,once we provide the land,we provide assistance for the clearing of the land. We not only give the land,Mr. Chairman. we pick up a very large part of the lam! 5957

June 3 1970 Tape 1102 page 3. clearing cost.

In addition to the bonuses for land clearing, there are bonuses for farm roads, there is provision made for access, for the improve- ment of old fields, the excavation of farm storage and, as I have said in this House before, the most important I think single beneficial program, in terms~ of its size, in terms of its impact there,is the community pasture policy of this department,whereby vast areas of pastureland(and we will have nearly 70,000 acres, I think, fenced, under that program by the end of this season) whereby these lands are made available on a regional basis for our farmers so that they can pasture their animals in securtty,with protection,with veterinary attention,without hesitation, without concern,they can put their animals on these pastures, leave them there for six or seven months of the year and in the aeantime their own grass crop,of course,is saved and may be used for winter feed.

I will not at all get into the problems that has been solved for many, many communities,Mr. Chairman, b~ vittue of the fact that the animals can be taken off community roads, taken off open pasture near communities and put in enclosed pasture,saving a lot of problems,a lot of heartaches for the communities and of course,~at the same time savin~ extremely heavy losees,as there used to be for farmers.through animals being killed on the roads. Now all these programs, Mr. Chairman, aim to assist, do assist the bulk of our farmers, the great numbe~of them.

The fact that I mentioned this morning,for the reason I mentioned this momning namely, that the great number of our farmers are in mixed farming and each of the components of their operations, whether it he root crops and livestock, or root cro~s and dairy or root crops and poultry or whatever, each of the components,obviously,is necessary to a viable operation.

And where there are viable operations, generally, they are based on a mixed activity,and what we do in respect of one or more of the activities,in which a normal farming operation may be keeP en~aged,of course,helpa the others and help /the particular farmer viable. So Mr. Chairman, what we come down to is we have what visitors to this House,from great farming provinces,may consider quite small, and it is small, by comparison, yet by our standards important. We have an industry which does employ some 3500 people,which does prbduce $15, $16 million annually,value of 5958

June 3 1970 Tape 1102 page 4. T products and which thereby keeps these dollars revolving i~ this Province,giving a viable livelihood to our people rather than the dollars being exported some where else. And Mr. Chairman, it is not so,(and I gAve the committee the figures this morning)to say,it is aot true to say, that the root crop or the mixed farming segment is unimportant. It is equally untrue to say that we are not concerned with it.

The programs that I have just enumerated, taking up the great bulk of the estimates of the division, I think ~ndicate that very very much emphasis is placed on that general sector of agriculture in this Province. There is one other thing,Mr. Chairman, I told the committee ~esterday we were in the process of re-organizing the forest service. We are also in the process of re-organizing the division of agriculture.

And tentatively we see the aew division, the new look of the division in this light that it will be composed of components dealing with land development, crop production, with animal health, with livestock, with marketing and food technology, with cooperatives,of course, add very importantly with extension.

We hope to get into the department specialists in these various areas and rather than have the expansion of one area which can expand quickly hel~ back because the same officials are dealing with an expanding area and with one which is perhaps . at static, that kind of situation, which is what this point in time we more or less hav