Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Thursday, April 5, 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 47

Arri I 5, 1971 The House met at 3:0() P.H. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. '1'11pt' 10J(, TR-I MR. SPEAKER: Before commencing this afternoon's proceedi.ngs,it gives me great pleasure to welcome to thE: galleries a group of grade IV students from St. Clare's High School ·in Carbonear. I am not aware of the exact number of students nor who their accompanyin~ in­ structors are. We also have in the galleries an undetermined number of students from another institution, Memorial rnivers~ty, I believe. I trust that the afternoon will be interestinr, and informative for all of you. HON. FRANK D. MOORES: (PREMIER): ~r.

Speaker, on a very serious note, I would like at th:1.s time to pay tribute to Mrs. E. John A. Barnum. In the passin!!; of.Mrs. E. John A. Harnum, wife of our Lieutenant Governor, Newfoundland has lost a dear and distinquished citizen. I move that this honourable House record our deepest sympathy and express to His Honour our sincere condolences on behalf of government and the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. Mrs. Harnum was a gentle and devoted wife, mother and grandmother. In later years she fought a courageous battle against ill-health but always found time for the less fortunate of our citizens.

Her dignity and humility has left 'an ah:lding impression with all those who knew her. Her passing last night at the age of sixty came as a great shock to me as I know :It has been to all Newfoundlanders. "I take pleasure in small things", she once said. Her fRm:lly was her life. lier career was provid:lnp, a well ord~red home. The former Phyllis Dowden of St. ,Tohn's, !-'rs. Haruum P/lS a quite, soft-apoken woman. She had become cnclc-ared and wcl l known to thowrnnds of our people> for her devoted work to charit y :md social motivated actlviti~s.

At Christman ~nd other times of the yeRr she went to instttut:lons of her o~n frre will.ToRcthcr with her hushand she vi.sited virtually every co1m,i11nity on the island. Mn;. llarnum was l'onourary Vice-presiclent of the N:ttiomd

April 5, 1973 Tane 1036

Chapter of the Imperial Order of the Daughters of the Empire, She was Honorarv Vice-ehaini11n of the C.-frl C.u-fdes of C11n11<ln and Honournry Pre3ident for Newfoundland of the C.frl Guides. She wai. also Honorary President of the Ladies Division of Bally Hally r.olf and Countr:1 Club. This ~reat lady has served this province well in C.overnment House since 1969. I was privileged to know her and Jl\-2 I was always touched by her sincerity and her dedf.cation and her dignity.

It is with great personal grief that I express to His Honour and other members of her family the most sfnr.ere condolences and I would ask the House to join me in paying tribute to this great lady. HON. EDWA'R.Tl ROBERTS: (LEADER OF THY. OPPOSITION)_:_ 1-'!r. Speaker, my coll eaguei; and I of course w:l.sh to :loin in the motion put by the Premier andthe words he used to express the feelinr,s we all have at the passing of this great, d~ar lady. Thi~ is twice, Sir, in as many months,that this prov1nre has mourned the passing of the Lady of Governll)ent House.

Lady Outerbridge died within the past few weeks and now Mrs. Harnum. Mrs. Harnum was a gracious chatelain at Government House, in every way. She added to the dir;nity and the graciousness of the royal presence in this province. As the Premier has said so very well, she was a lady in every sense of the word, a mother, a grandmother and a citizen who made a very real contrihution to this province. Our heFrts r,o out to llis Jlonour. This ,ms a terrihly sudden hcrc-Avement. Mrs.

Harnum had been in f.ll-hcalth for snme time as Wl' all kne1-•, h11t wh<-n I hPard the other nip.ht that she "'/lR taken to hospital, it was a suclden shncl: to me and I am sure• th,,t: to the Governor and to the members of his familv th:1.s c:i.me DS n vcrv sudden h] ow and their grief w;is nl l the p;renter. So, ,,,r <ln wi Rh tn he nssoci ntecl w:1 t:i the resolution • I :i.m very hnppy to RC COil cl :f 1-. Ml(. Sl'F/IF.l':I'.: TL k1r-; hr,•n hrn11r,ht to my 11tt.P11t'lnn t.h.,t alr.o .in the ') [' <) 1 •' d •

April 5, 1973 Tape 1036 IB-3 galleries this afternoon is the federal member for Grand Falls, White Bay and Lahrador, Mr. William Rompkey. I trust that your visit to this honourable House will be interesting and informative. QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS MR, NF.ARY: "fr . Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable the Premier. !lave the government t;iken any !'.ters to provide special ass:!stance for fishermen other than welfare benefits to those fishermen who~ unemployment i.nsur Jnce hcne fl ts have expired? MR, MOORFS: No, Mr. Speaker, not to my knowledge.

MR • . ~~ARY: A supp]cmentary question, Mr. Spcnker. Have the ~overnment made any representation to the Covernment of Cam1da or the Unemployment Insurance Commission to have the benefit period extended for f:1.shermen who~br?nefits have run out? MR, MOORES: The answer i.s yes,to the Government of Canada,and no,to the Unemployment Insurance Commission, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I may direct a question to the Premier. It is good to see him hack with us. Would the Premier agree to meet a delegation of students from the Memorial University of Newfoundland with respect to the Student-Aid Pror,ramme?

MR. MOORES: Mr. Spcnker, as J understand :It, the Minister of F.ducation and the ~inister of Finance are presently doing that rir,ht now. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question, I am aware that the two gentleman are meeting the de]egat:lon, I asked if the Premier would agree to see the delegation or 2 delegation. MR, MOORES: Gladly, Mr. Speaker. J am meeti,nr: quite a few of them right now. The th!nr: :Is that l would r;ladly meet with the delegation as well,:!f it is necessarv. J hope that evPryth!ng progre~ses favourably with the presPnt mcf't:lnr;. MR.

NT-:flf!Y: A (Jllesrinn for thC' honour:ib]f' the> Premier, Mr. Spe;iker. ls the hono11rahl£' t.lw PremlPr nwarC'. thnt: n r.roun of c:oncerned cit:lzcns are still w:1it:lnr: for his stat£'ml'nt that hr> nromh :Pd t.c> m;ike three wec>ks age, co11c c>rninf •, t.he dowutown complr x? 3692

April 5, 1973 Taoe 1036 IB-4 MR. MOORES: Yes, I am aware of that, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: A sur,nlementary question, Mr. Speaker. Would the Premier indicate when he is going to make this promised statement? ~. MOORES: When the decision has been made, Mr. Speaker. MR. F. ROWE: >"r. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the honourahle the Premier. In view of the fact that the Premier has expressed in this House, Sir, a wish to have the Straits of Belle Isle District established because of the problems of both sides of the Straits. Newfoundland side and Labrador side appear to be the same.

Will the Premier r,ive some consideration to extendinr, the terms of reference of the I.ahrador Royal Commission to include the Northwestern half of the Great Northern Peninsula? MR. MOORES: Mr. Sneaker, actually that will be for the commis5ioners themselves to determine. That was a r,ersonal observation on my part• I felt that because o(the link he-tween Labrador and the island part of Newfoundland, it would be desir~ble to have one mutual district, for the ohvious r.P.nsons of th<> r,:tp that exists between the t1,•o nt the present time. It would he the c:-onnnissioners decision as to if it is even done or not.

That was only a personal opinion on my part and I would not U.ke to say anything,certainly officall.y, that would have any bearing on th,:, commissioner's decision. 3G93

April 4, 1973 Tape No. 1037 NM - 1 MR. F. ROWE: Supple~entary que~tion to the honourable the Premier. Do not the government establish the terms of reference of such a - royal commission? MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, yes we have passed a b:fll to that effect,somc time ago. MR._J_.__~OlvE: Supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, Then cannot the ' honourable the Premier change the terms of reference to include the northwestern half of the Northern Peninsula in their terms of reference? MR. MOORF.S: Mr. Speaker, the bill is passed through the House.

If the honourable member want to bring in a private members' amendment or whatever one does in a case like that, I should be only too glad to consider it. I think it should have been considered when the bill went through. MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the honourable Premier, as Minist~r of Fisheries? There seems to be a bit of confusion toward the compensation for fishermen who suffered loss of gear during a storm last fall. I understand it only takes in a certain area.

I have had requests from Fogo District, similar fishermen lost gear in the same storm or other storms and it appears that they are not included. I wonder if the honourable the Pn,mier would clarify exactly where and how far and what areas it includesf ~J.!- MO_q_~E~ I wtmt to take notice of that question, Mr. Speaker, and as soon ns I bnve the info1~ation I will providL it. ~.:_F~ B,_()~-!E_:_ Mr. Speaker, in vi£'.w of my complete confusion now, I cannot - is th!' Premier sugr,estinr, that thC're WR.s a bill brought b~fore the House to <'stablish th~ T.:ihrndor Royal Commis!don? !:!.~• __ MOO_llF.§....:. Mr.

Speaker, 1 interpret whnt the honourable member was Rayfog was that the straits or the St. Barbe c:onst Area, I thour,ht he was talkinp; about the hlcctoral Jloun<laries Act. I apolocize in that cnse. 3694

April 4, 1973 Tape No. 1037 NM - 2 ~ _MQ~J{_ES: The terms of reference for the Labrador Royal Commission are such that hopefully, and this was dJscussed with the commJseioners before they actually started their work, it was · hoped that the recommendations for the southern part of Labrador and for Coastal Ln.brador, that the solutions to this particular problem would be such that they could be superimposed over the more rural parts of our province as well.

Now if it involves hearings in the province, the Northern Peninsula,for instance, I cettainly would support it and I would certainly talk to the head man on the commission about it. MR. F. ROWE: Well, Mr. Speaker, would the Premier be prepared to ·meet with me to talk over the possiblity of convincing the royal commission of tM.s? MR. MOORES: - - - ----·-· Yes, of course, Mr. Speaker. MR.

NEARY: Question to the Minister of Social Services: Is the minister in a position now to state what government policy is concerning the $30 per month that was a provincial allowance that was paid to the spouse of an old age pensioner who had not yet reached the age to receive the federal old age pension? MR. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, contrary to what happened during the last administration whereby this was deducted whenever there was an increase in Ottawa, that was the case.and contrary to any protestation!l regarding this government taking away, it is with great pleasure I can answer the gentleman that the spouse under the ar.e of, sixty-five will be allowed to retain the Ottawa incrc~se, bec/luRe it is only humane ancl proper that that be the case and it should have hecn instituted a lonr. while :1 go. '1-ffi. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, 1 s the rrem1 er aware then tbn t this will mean that the spouse of an old ar,e pensioner, who l1as not yet reached the age of receivinr, the fcdcrnl old n~c pension, that 3 G fl 5

April 4, 1973 Tape No. 1037 NM - 3 MR. ~E!JlY: this is a reduction of $30 a month? It ia a reduction. ~- MOO!_E~ Mr. Speaker, I am not quite sure what the gentleman is talking about. All I am saying is that the old age pension that has been increased, the people will be allowed to keep the increase and not have it deducted as was previously the case. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is not true. I ask the Premier to keep his facts straight. That is not true, Sir. 'MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, questions may he asked but not entered into debate during the question period. MR.

S!EAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island is quite aware of the rules that are to be followed during the question period and it is quite out of order for him to enter into debate if the answer - the answer to the question may be mtsatisfactory, however, it is not debatable. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could I ask the Premier a supplementary question? ~es that mean then that the $30 a month provincial allowances is r,oinr, to be dropped altogether? MR. MOORES: It is going to be less. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, maybe the honourable Premier - maybe I am not making myself clear to the honourable Premier, bt:t there was a provincial allowance of $30 in addition to the old age pension,for the 5pouse of a person who was getting the federal old ar,e pcns:lon but not old enough to get the old age pension herself , there was a $30 provincial ;illowance, Is that going to be continued or is it going to be dropped? MR._ MOO~ES: 'Mr.

Speaker, it is not only p,oing to be continued but the raise thnt the person receivinP, the old age &ssj!ltance r,cts will not be dcduc:tC'.d from the spouse as :It was done previously, for thogc ln need. MR._ NEARY: No, thot is not true. 369G

April I,, l Q7] T11pl'I No. 1017 NM - t, MR, MOORES: It will not be deducted and the increase from Ottawa will be retained by the other half. MR. NEARY: Supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In other words then, what the Premier is saying is that two recipents one of the old age pension from the Government of Canada and one of the ~rovincial allowance will now receive $205. Is this what the Premier is saying? Between them - MR.

MOORES: What I am saying, Mr, Speaker, is that the person who qualifies for old age assistance will qualify now for the full increase that they got from Ottawa and it will not be deducted for a married couple,such as it was in the pas~, and that the spouse will retain the same amount as she or he is receiving now. MR. NEARY: Well okay that is what I wanted to know. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the member for Labrador South. MR. MARTIN: A question for the honourable the Premier, Mr. Speaker.

First of alJ, in view of the fact th<1t the ler.;islation passed,regarding collective bargaininc for fishermen,is practically unworkahle, is the honourable gentleman aware of the problems involved? Secondly, what is the government prepared to do about brinr,:lng in amcndmC'nts to that act? MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, there is new legislation to come in on that particular subject bec_ause the other one was so bad. I cannot p,ive the member the detail of it now but I can certainly find out and when it is tabled, gladly consult with him on it. On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr.

Speaker left the Chair. lleacl . II.,. Ml nes and Ern~r_r:y MH. BARRY: Mr . Chairman, when we leftth1s on Tu..-1:day I was finlsldnr, 1,ome commf'nts wiLh rcspcc :t to questioi1(; r111~ecl hy 1·hc honnurahlc r,C'nt lr·m.,n, J.P.1.cler of the Opposition . I bell.eve I had finished a 11 hu l l h,, l ar, t two flll "~ tiom,. ThP.!"-' C' rdern•cl to, flr r; t tl1<! control of the- .-idm.i1d'-'tratio11 ... ,. 0 ~ ,) tJ ,J I

April 4, 1973 Tape No. 1037 NM - 5 t-m. BAR!_)':over · the activity taking place on the Continental Shelf, the m;.nagement of th.e resource, The honourable Leader of the Opposition I believe asked what our government 1s policy was with respect to th!s. Basically• purely and simply it is that our government feel. , unless our province is in a position to manage this resource, to control the activi .ty on the Shelf, that our province and our people will suffe .r.

It is for this reason we have mentioned on several times in the past that it is not merely a matter.in negotiating with Ottawa., to get a division of revenue, to get a share of the royalties received. The province wants control over decisions effecting industr .ial spinoff • control over decisions such as where oil once found will be brought 3698

April .'.,, 197 3, Tap" 103H, Par,e 1 -- nph ashore, control over decisions such as we made recently with respect to the AMICO farmout, that preference be given to Newfoundland goods and services and.preference be given to the employment of Newfoundlanders in activity occurring on the Continental Shelf off Newfoundland. There will nlways be a c-erta:fn amount of federal input. Then~ w:IJl he,hopefully. fc-dcral customll laws applied, althour .h r:f r,h t now, for some reason or other, the f edera 1 r,overnmc-n t, the Liberal Government :fn Ottawa does not appear to be too concerned about this matter.

In other places in the world, they have gotten around the application of law problems by clesir,natinP,, such as in the United States they desi~nate an oil riR as a port off the country, with the automatic effect of having all the Customs LegislaUon, the Horkmens' Compenm,tjon Lcr,islntion, Safety Legislation and the 1-Iunicipal Law generally applyinr, to the activity on the Continental Shelf. This we feel is necessary also off our !'.hrlf. We- would like to sc·r proper cuEJtoms controls, we would likC' to see proper immir,r.iti on c-ontrols.

I .mr. not too famil :far wlth what is happ~n:lnr, immir,rationwise, but I do not bel:ic-ve the Federal Imrnip,ration taws are be:f.np, enforced on the Continental Shelf at the present t:fT11e, althour,h this possibly has very little effect, since when workmen come ai;horc then,of course, the proper :Immigration procedures have to be followed.

Ras:l .call.y, I think whoever ends up with control of the resource out there and management of the resource, tl1ere will always be certain areas of federal jurisdiction, the fishing _1ur:!r.cl:!ct:lon, the shippinr: and navig;it:lon, customs, :Immigration nnd so on,hut wr wnnt the l'rov:1.nce of Nc·wfci11ndlnnd to havP the f:1.nal say in how tltc rc•r.ourc<' is man;ir,cd. Thi~ is thE' m,dn term wh:!ch is presrntly under ner,ot:lnt:lon with Ottnwa. The honour,1h1c• the Leader of the Oppn!;ition al.so ask(:cl a C]UC'S ti on concc-rning tllf' l'e troleunl Adv:! 501")' r.ouncil ~•hich has hN'n rmncinnc.Pd.

Ile asked wh;t t was tald np; pJ ace here ;t!ld J. am lt:ippy to i;ny 3 G ~ !l

April 5, 1973, Tape 1038, Page 2 -- arb that there has been an Order-in-Council pnsscd recently, within the last week or so, creating this advisory council, setting out the membership and providing for a full-time director and I think a couple of backup staff. There has been nobody appointed yet. We are presently looking at, first of all, who we will go to and ask to volunteer their services to sit on this commission. We have broken it down into representatives of labour, industry, the fishing industry, the university and so on, to Ret representation from all areas of our economy and our society i.n Newfoundland.

We have not decided on the individuals, the actual indiv:l.duals who will be approached here yet,but this should be done very shortly. We are hoping that th:ls body will provide a better means of communication between government and different areas of our society that have a pRrticular interest in what is happening on the Continental Shelf. We hope this communication will work both ways.

We hope that it will be a way of c_onveying and explaining government policy to,say, the fi.shing industry and also we hope to get a feed­ back from the fishing industry, from business people and so on,back to government, to keep us aware of particular problems that our people might be concerned about. The last po:lnt referred to by the honourable the Leader of the Opposition was the power commissh>n or sevPral matters rclat:l.nr, to the power commission.

He nskrcl whnt rovernrnrnt policy wns with respect to future development, future r,enPrntinr, capacity, Basically, the power comm:1.ssion attempts to keep at all times a four to five year projection of future nPeds. In decidinp- which form additional generat:lnr. capacity w:111 take, the power commission has to make certain assumptions or anyhody makinr, pro_1cctions in thic. area has to make certain assumptions with respect to 1 for example, what the cost of fuel is ~oinr to be. Th:f.s is :Important jf they clc•c:i.cle on the t:hPrmaJ r.enC'r,1tor altcrm1ti.vc·.

Tlwy a]ic:o havc- to Joni: ;1t ~,!wt the c-cn:t of c.apltnl fr; J:fkC'ly to b<', not iust Lids y<'ar, but' two, thrc·c-, four or 3700

April 5, 1973, Tape 1038, Page 3 -- apb five yr3rs in the future, lt is n mnttcr of ~rtting n bnlnnre. The hyJro1•lc:-ctric 111 t1..•rnnt Ive fR 11tl rnctfvr ff thr• cost of Ci'lpital is clown and i( environmental considerations permit. but as the cost of capital goes up and it has r,onc up over the last four or five years, the last ten years I suppose if not lon~er, then the balance shifts in favour of a thermal generatinp, unit. However, as the cost of fuel ~oes up, then the operatin~ costs of the thermal unit increases, so that,

whereas you mir,ht have a lower initial capital outlay for a ther~al plant versus a hydroelectric development, you have to look at the long-term as well as the short-term and realize that

whereas the operating cost of a hydroelectric development is low,as the cost of fuel goes up the operating cost of a thermal plant increases. It is a matter of balancing out these various factors. The way the power comr,li ssion seems to be tending right now is in favour of future thermal gen!'rating plants, harring no unforesC'en ch;mge on the capital market or the cost of fuel. However, there is another factor that must be remembered,of course, and that is the availability of hydro potential on the island.

There are a number of are;is which are presently he:lnr, looked at and which (apart from the Lower Churchill of course) could be suitable for hydroelectric development. One of these :Is Cat Ann on the West Coast and ••• AN HON. }IEMBF.R: (Inaudible) MR. BARRY: Well, wherever •- if there is a hydroelectric development, :ft looks like this would prohably be the next area where this would happe;i. I think this nnswC'rs mo!'ll of the questions the honourable the LE"';ider of the Opposition had with respect to the power commis!d.011 C'---ccept for the met:ihership of the commission.

I unc1erstanc1 that the salary i s $6,500, I have to confC'r.s tbat J have not checked t:h-'lt point, Thal ls tlw f:!r.ure tlwt wi'ls ntC'nt:l.011Prl t·o me earl h·r nm! I will clwc-k :It :ig,1in. TlH'r ·e 11:is h<'C'll n,, :!1H'TC';1se to my ln1owlPd/·.C', nf'r (IC'crc:isC'. With

April 5, 1973, Tape 1038, Page 4 -- apb govenunent p~licy on this,I have to say there has been no decision made. One of the thinp,s thou,:h,and this I have not discussed with my colleagues, ,rone of the things that have been concerning me, not just with respect to the power con'ltnission but with tespect to the different authorities that exist as semi-autonomous bndi .es only indirec~ly related to government, I see a problem in y,etting communications. Ho,w do you r,et communications between government and the power commission, between government and othet like bodies?

There has to be some manner by which government policy is injected into these bodies. The idea of the commission, I think, was exactly that. You ha:d a power commission. If it' were functioning properly, j this would be the liaison between the government and the more or less autonomous body. I do not know if the commission has operated like that in the past. I suspect that it has not but :ff it has not, we are i?Oing to have to look and see whether there if. a need, either for change, for modification of the existinp, system or whether we go to 37 02

April 5, 1973 Tape 1039 another method of gettinp, this link between ,i:overnment and the commission or any other body. One way that has been suggestec is say to have the assistant deputy minister of energy sit in either as a member of the commission or as a member of the management team of the commission to keep day to day imput into the commission and to get feedback from the commission and government. As I say there has been no firm decision made on this and I cannot say any more than that at this time unless there are more specific questions. JM - 1 MR.

ROWE(W.N.): Would the hon. minister permit El question, Mr. Chairman? At the present time does the chairn:ian of the Powc-r Commission report to the assistant deputy minister of eneTRY or to the deputy minister of mines and energy or does he report directly to the minister? I ask the question because when I was responsible for housinp, in the Smallwood Administration,the chai.rman of the Housinp, Corporation used to take a very j1.1Undiced view of reporting to any officials.

He used to want to report d:1.rectly to the miuis l c.:r and of course the minister's time is so taken up that often, ar; the mf.nister has indicated, a semi-atonomous borly like that has a tendency jm~t to waffle around on the periphery of r.overnmcnt and there is not enour,h control over it. So in the caAe of the Power Commission, who cloes the chairman report to now,directly? MR. BARRY: Well, I think this lrns been one of the prohlel!IR :1.n the past.

The legislation crent:lnr, the Power Co1nmission and I imap,jne t.he lcr,islation crf.>atinr, the Ncwfounrllnn,t and Labrador Housinr, Corporation and others sets out, at lc-ar;t for the Power Commission, that the commission report to the 111inister. Now I suspect that what has happened int.he past is that this has bc,en taken literally althou~h there is no necessity tor taking it Jiterally,in my C'lphiion,becausc all it :I!> f!ayin,- is that the ministl'r is the one responsible for the Powf'r Com,nii;~don. 3703

April 5, 1973 Tape 1039 MR. ROWE(W ~: The chairmnn himself - MR. BARRY: Yes but this :Is something that has been chanp,ed,i°n the last few months in any event,with respect to the Power Commission and 'there has been no reluctance on the part of the commission to JM - 2 do this. My feelinp, is that the minister is not able to keep the day-to-day contact, to keep up on the every-day routine of the commission and this is exactly why you have assistant deputy ministers or deputy ministers. So this is the :Idea of creating the post of assistant deputy minister of energy.

Apart from responsibility for offshore development I anticipate a direct tie-in with the Power Commission and with other. energy related bodies in the province 0 and I do not think there will be any need for any le~islative change in order to achieve this. You could leave still the requirement to rrport to the minister and the minister merely designates which off:! ci.al receives the report and it is not necessary - it may have been a matter of status in some cases in the past or personal relations or something.but I could only speculate. MR.

NF.ARY: While the hon. minister is on the Power Commission,! wonder if I could put a couple of questions to him about the Power Commission's operation in Bishop Falls. The !louse will remember that certain aller,ations have been made about the Power Commission operation in Bishop Falls.

I rais<>d the matter :In the House a couple of weeks ago and the minister promised to get some information on it but since then I have had a piere of correspondence from a gentleman in !Hshop Falls, Sir, that I am prepared to table, givinP, me a list of some of the thinp.s that he thought were happening there thnt should not have be-en hnppening. Number one he said, "Whenever we P,O - ~.__llARRr: Could I n•arl out the onPs th;1t WC're initially madr and mnyhc if they coinc-irlr it would save time, here. I will r,o through thPm one hy one and rC'port on thr invcsliRations - MR.

NEARY: Yes, :f.f the ministc-r :l.s coverinr. the cnrpenter sent to

April 5, 1973 Tape 1039 Sandy Point in Norris Arm to work on the manager's summer cabin. Does he have that included? MR. BARRY: No, I cannot say that that is one which has been brought to my attention. MR. NEARY: Well, that is one of the points I wanted to raise and then there is the matter of company cars. The minister will be able to.answer that. There is one,about 1972 they decided to rearrange the commission yard into different sections. Well, I better wait until I hear the minister's list and then I will go over it and check them off against this one. MR. MURPHY: Another member wants to ask a question.

Do you want to get his too so Labrador North. you might an9'~er them all? The member for MR. BARRY: Let me handle the Power Cotranission,as this one will t:ike a bit of time. Could I have just a moment to fi,nd it? Mr. Chairman, some time ago allegations were made concerninp, Power Comm:fssion operntions in the R:fshop Falls officP. I have requested a report from the Power Commission, the managc-ment of the commission,with respect to the allep,ationn made. I W(,uld like first to go through what was aller,ed and then refer to the response of the commission on these and my own decision concerning the matter.

An individual who initially was anonymous but who has since contacted me directly-there is no need to P.lention the name'""" complained of mismanap,ement and abuse of public funds in the area.

The specific complaints beinr, as follows: First that the Power Commission personnel were hiring fric-nds and relatives and iRnorinR local people: secondly that Power Commission personnel were hir1nr, fr:lcncls of important pcopll• :In the Gr,,nd Falls Arcn while ir,noring people in the Bishop Falls Area,sur,r,esting that some students who h11d washed-out at university had been hired with the c-ommission simply \,('cause their fathers held the right po!iitiong in the 3705 JM - 3

April 5, 1973 Tape 1039 Grand Falls Area. Now possibly the most efficient way of doing this is to refer to them one by one.

With respect to these first two allegations,the coimnission has reported that all hiring at Bishop Falls has been in accordance with standard commission hiring policy, that any position advertised is filled with the requirements of the position in mind, that hiring is on a .provincial and not on a regional basis or on a town basis, that reference to local people in the .Bishop Falls Arca being ignored is not substantiated by records that date back to January, 1970, where it shows,out of people employed,there have been eighteen employed from Bishop Falls, six from Grand Falls, nine from Botwood, four from Winsor, three from Lewisporte and three from Norris Arm. ~iith respect to the reference to important people, the · Power Commission informed me that they do not maintain any social calender.

Now I am satisfied with the response of the commission as to these two allep,ationz and I have decided that no further enquiry or investigation is necessary. 3706 JM - 4

April S, 1973 Tape no, 1040 Page 1 - MRW With respect to the third point,the allegation was that Pmfer Commission cars were being used for private purposes and that when people in the Bishop Falls area started complaining about the misuse of government vehicles, the Power Commission people had the decals removed from the side of the cars: The informant stated that the Power Connnission personnel were using the cars on off­ duty time, He suggested that there was also an abuse of credit cards inasmuch as they were being used for private purposes, The report of the commission was,to this: Personnel on call with radio cars are permitted limited use only, The commission has no record of any complaint either at Bishop Falls or elsewhere respecting misuse of commission vehicles, All vehicles requiring identification,as per commission policy,are so identified.

No identification has been removed from any commission vehicle required to be so identified. 1bere had been one reported incident of improper use of credit cards by an employee and the employee has since been dismissed. Tilis employee, although in operation, was not a resident of the Central Newfoundland area. MR. SPEAKER: Order please: TI1erc seems to be some disorder in the r,ti lleries. For the benefit of people who are in the galleries, it is looked upon with r,reat displeasure where any demonstration of disrespect for this honourable House has taken pl ace. MR. BARRY: With respect to thnt, Mr. Speaker.

I do not want to go into any detail. I would just like to point ou~ to the individuals present in the galleries that the privilep.e of the House is not preserved for the individuals who are in the House but because the individuals who have been elected nre representatives of the people of Ncwfouucllnnd. Tilis priviler,c is one that historically has been found necessnry to he prot~cted, One of ci1c ways iR by ~aiotaining order :In the r,;illcri.es. l\nsjc;illy it boil,; down to,disrespect for tl1e Chairman conducting the hcariugs in this houuurable House , :l.n diurespect for the people of Newfoundland. 3707

April 5, 1973 Tape no. 1040 Page 2 - MRW MR. F. B • ROWE : Mr. Speaker, with all due respect. There might be a certain amount of conversation in the galleries but I believe the matter that brought this to your attention was purely an acciaent. Something dropped off the rails. l do not believe it was any disrespect at all. It was simply something coming in over the rails. MR. SPEAKER: I think the point is well taken and the business of the House may recommence. MR.

BARRY: So with respect_ to the third allegation made, concerning the Power Commission, I have satisfied myself that the information supplied by the commission is adequate and that no further investigation is necessary. Another allegation that was made is that Power Commission pe.rsonnel had no regard for the spending of vast sums of money and stated as an example of this that the cotnmission transferred a gentleman from Whitbourne, just before Christmas, and that this gentleman stayed for some time in an hotel in the Bishop Falls area while awaiting accommodatio11 pcrsumably, following his employment.

The main complaint in this respect was that a qualified peraon from the Bishop Falls area, ng it later turned out the qualified person was the gentleman making the allegation, was avai .lahle, that had he been hired the government could have saved money in the way of not having to pay hotel bills, relocation expP.nses and so on.

In answer to this, it ·was stated that a position of driver-r,roundsman had become available last fall and as required by hiring policy and the union ngreemcnt, this pm,ition was posted ancl filled by the applic,-:mt wlw in the co1mni ssion 's judr,ment was best qualifi£>d to fill the position. The employee chosen was tr,msferred from Whi t~bournc to Bishop :Falls nnd strictly in accord:mce with t.hc commission's pol icy, wa'.-1 given fourteen 3708

April 5, 1973 Tape no. 1040 Page 3 days board and lodging at commission expense while finding suitable accommodations for his family, This is a normal practice.I would submit,in any industry. The total amount spent was $230.25-, I am satisfied with the information supplied concerning this allegation and I have decided that no further investigation is nec~ssary. It was suggested that there was a link between the landscaping of one of the senior company official's lawns and landscaping work that was done for the Power Commission last summer.

Apparently it was said that the senior official had his lawn done at the same time as the Power Commission,by the same company. The answer to this is that the Power CommiRsion had no contract in Central Newfoundland for landscaping in the fiscal year 1972-1973, I am satisfied with this. (7). It was suggested that line crews were apparently sitting around line shacks waiting for work. It wai:i nllcgcd that somethjng should be done about having a back-up crew wait1nB around at full pay. Ap,ain the commission states that this is completely unfounded.

Linc crews, when they, bcc:iusc of 11ns11lt..-h]c­ weather conditions cannot do field work, are ens~aged at servicing line equipment and tools or receiving upRrnding instructions. 111ere is no back-up crew nt Bishop Falls or anywhere cl se in thr system, The answer of the commission satisfies me on that point. (8). It war. stated thnt two examples of people who were abusing the helicopter - I think 1 have missed one. I am sorry.

I skipped one. (6). lt was claimed that there was serlous misuse of motor vehf .cl es and equipment by commissf on personnel and cxnmr,les stnte.d of this were: 111c use of pickups, mus_kegs, llki-doos and hclf ,r.optcrr. for huntinr. 11.nd fishing. TI,c r,Pntleman had .i film which w.ii. shown 3 7 0 ~)

April s. 1973 i:ape no • 1040 Page 4 to certain officials. I did not see it.

Individuals in government did see it, It purported to show employees of the Power Commission using the helicopter and a muskeg for hunting purposes, Now the commission with respect to this point stated that it had thoroughly investigated the claim and that there had been certain isolated and minor violations of commission policy wit~ respect to hunting and fishing, 1be management of the commission is satisfied that there has been no serious abuse of equipment by personnel, Any use hes been limited to equipment that has been in country on patrol and mine work and on return to base camp at Bishop Falls have brought out game and on many occasions this game did not belong to commission personnel but to licenced hunters in the area, While this is an abuse. a minor abuse of the commission vehicles. the commission policy is clear on this, Commission instructions have g-0ne out with respect to it and I am satisfied that it is not a matter seriou:. enough to require further investigation.

Another allegation was that there was mismanagement and waste of funds because of the renovation of a line shack, He said that there were three renovations 6ince 1970, Now there is a pretty extensive report on the building th~t has occurred on the comission premises out there since 1970, Without going into detail the commission has clearly set out that there has been no abu~e here. I am satisfied it does not require any further investigation on this point.

(10) The individual wanted a.1\ investigation to see what the costs are on n per capita basis for feeding men who are members of line crc>ws. lie sur,r,ci;tc<l th11t unused p,roceries are taken home by various members of the. crewt1 and nur,p,ested that groceries are specific11lly ordered with the intention of being tnl:.en home. lie also claimed al,u,:e of r.ovcrnme>.nt vehicles with respect 3710

April 5, 1973 Tape no. 1040 to this and stated an example whereby an he]icopter was sent in to a line crew in the woods with a couple of steaks and this was apparently done in order to justify bringing a moose back on the return trip. He cites similar examples whereby muskegs were reportedly abused in the same manner. The commission reports that the supply of groceries for line crews when on line patrol or maintenance are through the normal purchasing channels, contolled by the department sup~rvisors and foremen. The reference to the vehicles has already been referred to previously. This is being investfgated..

As I mentioned earlier, 1 am satisfied with the answer of the commission on this particular point. MR. SPEAKER: If the honourable minister would permit me? I have been asked by the heads of the delegation which met with the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Education to direct a message to the Memorial University students here,that it is ·the wish of the delegation heads or the chairman that the students now return to whatever activity they were at before tl.ey came to the House of Assembly. As far as the chairman of the delegation is concerned,the need for their presence in the galleries is now over.

They also express some concern with the behaviour of certain members. However, lf honourable members will join with me in saying,generally speaking, 3 7 :J. 1

Apr:fl 5, 1973 Tape 1041 Tn-1 that behavior of the visitors has been commendable. A couple of the small instances were far less severe than could have been the circumstances had students tended to be unruly,as students in some institutions have been over the years. I thank the students,on behalf of the honourable members,for their generally good behavior. MR. BARRY: That does not mean that 1 am going to lose all my audience, I hope. MR. SPEAKER: I am sure that the honourable member will retain many of the students. MR.

BARRY: Another allep,ation was wjth respect to the use of equipment by a specific cmoloyee, foreman of the commission,and with respect to ahm;e of sick leave privilPr,es by this individual. The commission has satisfied me that these allegations are unfounded. There was an allegation that government property was not being d 1.sposed of in a11 acceptable manner and he sugr,es ted that 585 salvaga::ltransformers were in one of the Power Commissions yards in the Bishops. Falls area.

According to him these salvagro transformers could have been disposed of and the proceeds applied to an operational fund rather than h<>ing left to rust. The commission informs me that materials, equipment or real estate no longer a· requtrement of operations arepassed over to purchasing or properties for disposn.J,as per commission policy. True, as they say, the commission has a quantity of transformers together with line hardware and other. material in their yard,which has been returned from thr- system for v.:irinus reasons. However, those materials wrrc not dN:]arecl s11rnlus t.o thr- operations.

There hils recently bcin~ b111lt an cxtenUon to the wan•honsc- f,1ci.Jitics tn be set up as a recovery storr section. Insofar as is economical, thC'se various mated:i1s :ire beinr, rPhahilit:ited :md tilken into inventory for future syt:tem rPqtdrcrncnts. Some of the mnterial has alrrady been recondttioned and rc-tnrnc-d to sc-rvlce. I am !lati.sfie.d with respect to th;Jt' al lcp.:cition. The informant,as n11mlwr fonl"tC'Pn :1lle~;1tinn,allegcd thnt 37J2

AprJl 5, 1973 IR-2 acc:f.dents involving power commission veh1clci; whfch were rr.ported]y caused by drunkenness had been covered up and were apparently repaired at government expense wiht no d1.sciplinary action taken against either of the drivers. Investigation reveals that this allegation is completely unfounded, that accidents involving either equipment or personnel are investigated by a committee.

In the case of vehicles, the committee generally consists of a supervisor of transport, a safety and traininr, supervisor and the supervisor of th~ department concerned and action is taken in line with policy directories.Safety is of paramount importance to the commission. Records and statistics arc published by them monthly and submitted to national and international safety committees for comparison with records of similiar utilities and other industries. Investigation of records indicates no such accidents as referred to by the individual concernPcl.

Another allP.gation was with respect to the same foreman usinp, Power Commission time and personnel to dismantle a couple of line carnps,and using them for h1.s own pdvate nroperty. Investigation reveals this allegation is unfounded as well. The sixteenth allep,ation was that :lrregul;irit1.es occurred concern:lnv, the sale of vehicles th:it were sold on 1m"as is,whcrc is" basis. It was statc•d that :if l'owcr Commission employees huy the vcldclcs, the VPhfclcs arc put :in fafrlv r,ood runn:inp; order before> the employc-es take- delivery of them.

Tt w11s stated that new tJrcs were beinc put on vehiclc-s just hcfore the cmoloyees took de]fverv of them. Further cl ;dm was that there W/Hl a closed door poUcy -fn this respect, th.:it office personnel h.1d the pick of the veldcle fleets thnt were to he sold nnd ff they express an int~rest in any of t hr V(•h :I cl es then al J other Power C:ommJ ssi nn Jl('ople do not have .:i ch:mcc-. The :lnformnl ion tlrnt T h.:ivc rcci-fved is that this nll er,nt Ion is i11correct, th,1t VPlif cl es,as oth<-r JT\,,ter:i..,11; 1,urpl us to onr'r:il-fons,are dispor;e<l of in accordance w-fth lnfd-down co111mis~:ion policy.

J h;_ivp a l-f1;t of thf' disnm:al. of vehicles from con11ni1;sion 3713 , _.,

April 5, 1973 Tape 1041 IB-3 records for 1971 and 1972. All units for disposal were advertised island-wide, made available for inspection and disposed of to the highest bidder. I have a list of the various sales, if anybody b interested. The un:1.ts sold to commission employees were on the highest bid submitted and no preferential treatment was given. With respect to number seventeen allegation.

It was suggested that there is willful and deliberate destruction of government property and cited as an example was one skidoo that was deliberately destroyed by Power Commission persGnnel,by having tires slashed and so on. This alleration is completely unfounded accordinr, to the commission. I am satisfied that their investlgation is suff:lcient to meet this allegation.

There was one other statement with respect to the gentleman not beinp, able to make his case to Power Commission personnel and to the fact that he was treatenc>d by a supervisor in the Bishops Falls area that if the complaints were registered that the gentleman would never ap:ain f!et ;:i _1oh with the Power Comm:l.ssion. lie also al] eged thnt one of the supervisors said thnt he would not stnnd for any political interference in the running of the Power Commission Site :1.n the :Bi shops Fa] ls area.

With respect to these all~r,ations,the supervisor referred to was contactPd and his version of the incident 'I-ms that he stated to the r,entleman making the allegation that ;:ill final decisions concerninr; h-frinp. of personnel ar.e made hy the m;magement of the commiss:lon and not by the supervisor involved.

It was further indicated to thr. ind1virl11.:1l, when he s;ifcl tlwt he> woul.cl r,o to r,ovcmmcnt, th;it in the p;1~t, :tp.,rt from furtlwrfnr. rc>r111c>sts hy certnin fndivid11nls for PmPloymr.nt, the formrr ndm1.nlstr:ition :ind the rresent :ir1m1nistrat-fon had exertc>rl no pressure wh;itsoever on the rommfssion resprctinr, hfrinr, rrartice. Thr. ~cn~]PmAn enclrd up Ids 11.]l~r.ations ,-dth the- statcmnnt tlrnt ff no action were taken thf'n he was t:ikinr; t.hesr rharr,E's to the Lr:1der. of the Opposition, to the news mcrli :t nn,l he would nlr;o suppl v the ff lm thnt he had to 37:t4 I

Ar>ril 5, 1973 Tape 1041 I 11-1, thf' tclcvf:;fon Rt11tio11s in !st . John 1 R nnrl to nnyt,ocly <•1 flC who .,.,as interestr.d. Now, l have ~one throup ,h each of the nllerntions fodividually and in detail discussed them 'lolith Power Commission personnel. The choice that I had to make was 1.•hether I accepted the answers of the Power Commission manai:ement or whether further investigation should be undertaken. It is my decision that no furthe r invest1gation is needed and that these allegntions have been met. 3'1J 5 I

April 5 0 1973 Tape No. 1042 NM - 1 MR.

BARRY: One other point, the individual making the allegations contacted me directl~ by telephone, identified himself, discussed some of the matter and made it clear to me that he was making the allegations, his wording was, "I would not make these allegations had I not been refused employment." On further investigation,! learned that this is an individual who had applied for a position, had not obtained it, had filed a grievance with his union and the grievance had been 'processed in the normal manner, the u~ion were not supporting the gentleman and were not supporting the gentleman's position any further,and the union was satisfied with commission policy and decisions in this respect.

So I came to the conclusion at a very early state that the allegations were made by a disgruntled employee. But that I felt would not justffy a scanty or no investigation into the matters. The matters were investigated in detail and I am satisifed that there is no abuse of the nature alleged by the informant. I do not know if there are any further questions the honourable members might have with respect to this, MR. NEARY: Mr, Chairman, the minister cannot just brush off this very serious matter by saying that these allegations were wAde by a disgruntled employee, MR. BARRY: I did not do that. MR.

NF..ARY: Sir, I saw the film. Eight millimeter fHm, we screened it one day in the office of my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition. It is some pretty po,Jerful evidence, Sir, damnRinr; <>vidence. It j s right there before your very eyes the kind of thing th:H was r,oing on, the kind of abuse and misuse of Power Commission equipment in r.enlral Newfoundland. The minister just cnnnot brush it off. I wlsh the m:lnister had carric>d out an 1ndepcndcnt invest:lr,ation into this whole affair Sir, instead of asking the officials of thP Power Commission to investigate themselves.

Jt is just like thcsayinn, you know,we used 371.6

April 5, 1973 Tape No. 1042 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: to have when we were growing up, "Ask me brother if I am a liar," sort of thing ~ I wish the minister had done an independent investigation Sir, because this particular gentlem~n is prepared to give evidence under oath that these things did happen. Now we will probably never find out, Sir, if the minister is satisfied, Obviously from the information that we have heen given, there was a little hanky panky going on. AN HCN. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: The film, the gentleman says, "Mr.

Neary whenever you need the film it is available." As a matter of fact, the Executive Assistant to the Minister of Finance saw the fil~. Sir, there were some pretty serious allegations made and . maybe it is a good thing that they were, Sir, because now the min:1.ster may be in a position to correct any wrong-doing that was going on. Just to give you an example, Mr. Chairman, talking about the moose, I will not use any names, I will table this piece of correspondence, Sir. It is March 15, Bishop Falls: ''Mr.

Neary, reparding the film I showed you early this week, our transmission line supervisor and our leading hand went into our line camps September 27 to get h:f.s moose and they were unsuccessful and returned again September 29 and on October 5, our ground maintenance crew were told to go to our line camp and repair it and watch for moose for our supervisor leading hand and a fd end of theirs. However, we saw no moose that week and on October 7 we came back home.

"l>n October ]0 we were told to go back to our line cump nr,ain, which was located on Hinds Plains on the tr:m:.mi .ssion line leading to Corner P.rook and on October 11 we were. successful and killed our first moose. "The next day we saw nothjng but on Friday, October 13, we 3717

April 5, 1973 Tape No. 1042 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: shot our second one. The moose we shot so far was for the leading hand and his friend and 11 then he mentions another man's name,"still did not have his. Our leading hand then told us that Mr.~so and so"would bring in some grub for us on Saturday, October 14 by chopper. This would be a good excuse to bring the chopper in and he could have the leading hand go up to the chopper and have a greater view to see the country and locate his moose. "The r,rub was brought in to us, al though we had enough grub on hand to last about two more weeks.

After the chopper came back from searching the countryside ., the leading hand said that there were some moose we could get on the way out in one of our machines. Mr,.1tso and so"then took a set of antlers aboard the chopper and returned to Bishop Falls,to drive one of our trucks to Buchans, to bring the moose out. "Sunday, October 15, around noontime ,on the way to Buchans, we spotted our third moose, Our leadinp, hand brought the moose down with one shot and now we had Mr." so and so's"rnoose.

"I was then told by the leading hand to take the muskeg and go ahead to Buchana and telephone Mr." so and so''collect and tell him we had l1is 111oose. Also I did this from the Irving Service Station in Buchans 1 about 3:45 P.M.,when Mr."so and so "answered the phone, I told him we had his moose, He replied; 'Did you get the one I wanted?' I told him I did not know, when I asked the leadi11p. hand what·moose tlie supervisor wanted, he said, 'That in okay. We got the one he pointed out to me from the chopper.' "Mr."so and so''an:ivcd in lluclwns 11hout 6:00 P.M.

We then proceeded to Bishop Fall i; and on 11rdval we cleaned out the truck that we tr11nsported the inoosc home' in: also the muskeg that we brought the three moone off the line with."

April 5, 1973 Tape No. 1042 NM - 4 MR. NEA'R.Y: Now, Sir, that is well documented. MR. MORG~: Was the season opened then or closed? MR. NEARY: I do not know whether the season was opened or closed. I could not care less. This was the taxpayers money that was being used for this, Sir. It does not matter to me, Sir, whether the season was opened or closed, Maybe they are getting them out of season, I do not know. But, Sir this is well documented. It is pretty powerful evidence, Sir, and I think'it was sufficient to warrant an independent investigation.

That is my opinion, Sir, there were one or two other allegations that were \ made that the honourable minister did not answer. One I mentioned earlier before the minister rose to provide the information, MR. BARRY: They were not brought to my attention. Any that were brought to my attention were investigated, MR. NF.ARY: Fine. Well would the honouable minister n1ake a note of this so he can investigate it? The gentleman says that the Power Commission carpenter had to go to Sandy Point, Norris Arm, and work on the manager's summer cahins.

As far as the grub is concerned, Sir, here is the allegation made about that, ''Whenever we go to our line camp, we buy the best of grub and plenty of it. Also I know this is hard to believe, we also buy about $50 to $60 worth of pickled er.gs and wieners, When we return home the grub that is left over is d:f.vided up a!Tiongst the men in charge. Consequently their store bill is pretty low. 'One of the line foreman l' thf R :f A another alle2ation.

"Had h:f s line crew take a diesel motor from the yard and load it into his truck, covered with a tarp so that the people outside the yard could not see it, and had it taken home. lie used this diesel motor for a year and last fall it finally gave out. lie nlso had hi5 line crew dismantle it nnd brjn~ out two construction shacks which he now ha!; on his propt\rty, wh:f ch was done on c-ompany 37t!l -

April 5, 1973 Tape No. 10112 Ml<,_~:!-_l{.l:_ tim~.• 1 I do not: know if tlint IA l l11tf•cl 1n thr~ inventory there that the minister ment:I oned for disposal. MR. BARRY: I mentioned that. NM - 5 MR. NEARY: Here is another one, M~. Chairman. in my opinion enough to warrant an independent investigation. We are going to have independent investigation · into the building materials on Bell Island,which is a legitimate thing. Why not have an investigation into this scandal in Bishop Falls? Listen to this, Mr.

Chairman, the minister says he is satisfied with the explanation, "Also Chawmont Engineering returned three ski-doos they had on loan from the commission. Pieces were removed from the ski-doos so they would appear that they had to he wrote off, When this was done the ski-doos were put into the dump in the commission yard. After they were placed into the dump,they were taken home and the pieces that were removed put back on them and they were okay again." Mr." so and so ''was one of the men who did this, also one linesman." A pretty serious accusation Mr.

Chairman; but notsufficient for the minister to have an independent investigation - ask the Power Commission officials to investigate themselves" 3720

April 5 • 1973 Tape l.043 l'K - 1 AN HON. Ml•:MnER: Why not? t~!-_NF.A!_'t'...:_ Why not? Does it make "Hense? AN HON. MEMBER: Absolut<.'ly not. MR. NEARY: It does make sense. nAlso in 1972 they decided to rearrange the commission yard into different sections for each crew. They hired on temporary help to do this. When it was partly done one superviser was not satisfied, he wanted it done his way. It was changed to his way. The contractor who was putting up the fence was pretty near finished when Mr. Hobbs, the Chairman of the Commission, arrived from St.

John's and cancelled the whole thing. 11 Listen to this one, Sir,"Since I started work'~this gentleman says "Since I started work in 1970"and remember this is coming from a former employee of the Power Commission, Sir, and I presume he knows what he is talking about. The man did not strike me as a fool. He seemed to _be a pretty r.ensible Newfoundlander, common sense. Maybe he is disgruntled he did not get a permanent -1job with the Power Commission, I do not know.

But I would certainly like to find out if these allegations are true. 115ince 1 started work;' he said, 1 in 1970, the line crew that I was with usually played cards eight months out of the year. Last fall they decided to add a second line crew to help the first one," To help them to do what? To play card? They figurrd the first crew was over-worked. They figured they were over-worked, Hr •. Chairman, and hr said; "When I mentionrd this to the, Progressive Conservativf's they did not fil"<'m to lik(' it.

The l.:fne shack that we stayed in, Sir, where they played thc-se cards for eight months out of a year,was renovated thre(' timc>s in the past two years." Well it must be like the Waldorf-Astoria by now, Sit, wall to wall carpeting, card tables and all. 11 Thc>y did not s~em to like· it," he- said,"thr Uno shack we r.tayeci in w:is r(>novatf'd tlirrC' times in thf' past two yf':1rs at a ')" '> 1 tJ I I ' _.._

April 5, 1973 1'ape 1043 PK - 2 cost of about $30,000 this year alone." That could have been saved, Sir, and given to the students that we saw here this afternoon. nTwo line supervis~rs and one line foreman and crew spent six months trying to change shackles on transmission line 204 and could not do it. It is still not done." The point I am trying to make here, Mr. Chairman, these are - I am going to table this piece of correspondence, Mr. Chairman. I.t is the only copy I have.Could Your Honour have it xeroxed and - MR. BARRY: Have a copy made fer me. MR.

CHAIRMAN: TI·,e honourable member for Bell Island may present the document to the honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. However there is no provision for tabling of documantR in - MR. NEARY: I want to get a xeroxed copy made, Sir. That is all right,the honourable minist~r knows .the name of the gentleman who made these allegations. Presumably the honourable minister has it, 11 J .L.C." The point I am trying to make, }1r. Chairman, that these are pretty serious allegations, well documented.

Since these allegations were made, Sir, I have had a number of phone calls, three I think it was, three phone calls from residents in Bishop's Falls verifying that the allegations Lhat were made,that the facts given by the gentleman were correct. Yet we hear the minister here in the House this afternoon read out a report from the officials of the Power Commission discountinp, the allep;ati .ons. Well, Sir, sonwbody is right and somebody is wrong. I am not saying that the rower Commiss:I on is wronp,.

I am not condc-n11:;inr, the- Powc-r Commission j n any way I am not going to condemn the gentleman who made th<'" allPgat:lons. nut I st:111 think, Mr. Cha:1,rman, that this matter is .sprious enoup,h to warrant an independent investir,ation. I would l.i.ke> to ask the minister if he would reconsider this and in order to clear the air, to clarify the matter, to remove all of the suspicion from one s:lcle or the otlwr, to get tl!C' facts, to get at 3722

April 5, 1973 Tape 1043 PK - 3 the truth of this matter,that he reconsider and appoint an independent committee to look into this matter of the allegations that have been made in connection with the Power Commission operation in Bishop's Falls. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable the member for Labrador South. MR. M. MARTIN: It is not too often, Mr. Chairman, where we have an opportunity for opposition solidarity here. Many times I think many more times than not I have been in total disagreement with what my honourable friend for Bell Island has had to say, but in this respect I support him one hundred per cent.

I do believe the honourable minister is dismissing this thing much too fast. There is a real danger in having civil servants investigate themselves. I speak here from some experience in this matter because,wcll the honourable gentleman for Bell Island was recounting the story of the helicopter and the moose, I can recount a similar story almost word for word that actually happened to me while I was a member of the civil service, under orders I might add.

What we are asking civ:11 servants to do when we arc asking departments to investigate members of tht>ir own department, if these allegations an~ correct and they are guilty, then you are asking them to condemn themselves, and it is r,oinr, to be a pretty stronr, individual who is r,oing to p,c:-t up and do that. There is nothing at ,,11 wrong in having an indt>pendC'nt invt>stigating body, perhaps from the Dc.>partment of Justice even,t.o look :fnto thf"sC various allegations whc-n they comc,for two vory r,ood rc.>asons. First of all, if the allegations nn• correct, then justice should be done.

Secondly, if they are not correct, then the> partiC's who an" char.gee! should he r,ivrn an opportunity to clc-,,r thc-ms<>lvc-s thro11r.h .R third party. 1 woulcl al so l:lkc- to point out to the- honourable- nu:>mhers on the other si.1I<' simil nr ini;tancc>s thnt 11::ippencd :in the last year 1111<! n--hnlf wltli rc-gnrd to m;it·Lrn1 that we're> h1·our.lit up and subsequc-ntJy tun1t•d into wh:it in commonly \mown mi political foothnlls. I r<'fer 3723 .

April 5, 1973 Tape 1043 PK - 4 to the first case in the Department of Highways when they were charges of neglect and irresponsibility on the part of highway's personnel, specifically in this case in the Straits Area,and people who were in supervisory positions responsible for that operation.when we brought the matter to the attention of the minister last year and the year before,we were told -that departmental investigations have proven that our allegations were incorrect and that we were only playing politics.

Similarly with thl" now defunct, thnnk h!:'ovens, the D!:'partment of Labrador Affain1, when we were tryinr, to r.<>t an officinl investir,ation of the food shortages on the Coast of Labrador. The minister responsible at that time took it upon himself to phone his own departmental people in Labrador and ask them to say yes or no whether or not these charges were correct. And of course the answer he got back was "no, there is lots of food on the Labrador Coast;'and this was not the case at all.

It has only been since that we have been able to get an indevendent investigation on the coast,to look into these charges,that we have found that in most case!': they are in fact correct. So I do not think we should dismiss these things too suddenly without lookjnr, into them thoroughly, simply because the opposition has brought th<"m to the attt>ntion of the r,overnmc-nt. I do believe that in justice to the people who are chnrr,ed and in justice to th<' public whose money is beinr, spent,that some third body should be able to be appointed to investigate this mattC'r.

There are a couple of other thinr,s that I have to say with regard to the estimates beine debated here,hut I will take another opportunity and let the minis.ter rPspond t0 th is particular matter. MR. BARRY: --------- Mr. Cbalrrnan, whC'thC'r intentionally or not, there are crrtnin matters h<'inr, distorted lic> 1·e. Tlw first thing is that th<> lndivi.duals ar,,tinst whom the allc•r.,,'ltions wl'rc> made did not invc-st:lr,atP themselvc>s. Thf' invt'stigation w,1s carried out and my requc-st was directc>d to th«:> manap.c-rnent of the- l'owc>r Commjssion - AN 110N. MrnHER: l n .. ,t1<lihl e. 3724

Aprtl 5, l'H3 1'llp t· l 01, :I PK - S !_1R.~]l.J~;_ 'l'he inv,•stinntion wue cnrrfod out by tht> mnnnr,emt•nt who operate out of St. John's into the Bishop's Falls Area of operation. Now the honourable the member for Labrador South warned me against dismissing this matter tQo fast. Mr. Chairman, this matter was raised first to my attention, it was not raised by the opposition, it was not hrour,ht to my attention by tht- opposition it was brought to my attention by m<.>mbers of government.

The opposition may have latched on to it at a later time for their -.., own purposes but this investigation was commenced following information conveyed to me by members of government. These allegations were received on January 16. 3'7? !:'. .. , ~

April 5, 1973 Tape 1044 IB-1 Since that time I have requested an initial report from the management of the commission. In the init1al renort - I believe I mentioned it in the House when I received that.and I do not forget the date, approximately three weeks or a month after - in that initial report there were several matters on which I wanted further answers. One was with respect to the use of vehicles and company equipment for the hauling of mooi;e. There was another one, I do not recall exactly what it was. I think it is the creel-It card ahuse. r wanted further details on this.

The proh]em that I h;id,as I Raw it,ns minister renponsible, was to cfocide,as I mentioned before the honourable memhers ra:lsed the po:lnt, was to decide whethrr the facts as alleged warranted a further independent investigat:lon. Now, why did I ask that question? Why did I not immediately say, "Investigation! Let us r,o. Because I think that as minister I have a responsibility to not only the officals of my department. I should point out that these are not c:lvi] servants -either that we 11re referrinr: to here.

These are members of the Power Commission.For all intents and purposes,! suppose the same thlng,llut the honourable member was referr:lng to civil servants. I felt and I still fee] that I have a responsibility to ensure that investigations are not carried out agai~st officals unless there is good reason for the conduct of such investigations because,regardless of whether people have something to hide or not, it does nothlnp, for morale of puhlic employees to have the sceptre of investigation hanginr, over them.

Now, this is why I had to first decide from the ficts al]egcd,was there a need for an independent investip,ation? I pointed that out the last time thnt I rose in the House that that was the dPcision I was cnnsiderinR and thnt was the decision that J had to make as minister responsible, after p,oinr, into the details,and J have. The commission has admi. l ted, in the case of the comp:my vrhtrlcs,th.it there- w:it; some .ih11sp. There wns some minor isolated ah11i,e. I think th:1t,altho11gh I 1101 not :;n :mv way condol.inr. it, J 3726

Arrll 5, l<J7J 111-2 think it is an unders tan dab le abuse, knowin~ hc-w our people 1:1 ve, knowing the moose mythology that is followed, He had his moose tied on out there in the woods somewhere and he was going out to get it and if the vehicle were passing along in that direction, on the way back, he would try to get his moose brought in.

Now, I am not condoning that but I am saying that that or any of the other matters raised following my investigation and following what I felt was the only fair thing to do for the people against who the allep.ations were made, I fe]t the first and the only fair way of proceeding was to first 8sk them to explain the allegations made against them. To do that to one, is that not the fair thing to do? It is a normal course of events. Our courts follow the same procedures. They ask you to plead. Now, I got an explanation.

This is exactly the same procedure that is followed in the Department of Justice :1.n decidinr.; whether a criminal charge is go:lnr.; to he laid. They do not lay a criminal charge based on a me-re aller,at:lon. The chnrr,e :l.s first investigated. The question here was, "Was further independent investigation required?".

Now, :If the only :lnformat:1 .on I could r;et on it were from the people against whom the allegations were made, then J would probably have had to conclude that the only safe course to take would be to have ar independent invr.st:fgation,but the management of the Power Commission lai.d :It on the line taking the responi;:fbil-fty,as they have to take as management,and assured me that they were satisfied, nfter j_nvestir;ation of thf' al]er,ations,thnt there was no serious nhuse.

From the questions thnt I nsked,after henr-fnR the al]egat:lons, I w.1s s.tt is fi C'd then• w.1s no i;c-r:I ous :ibuse :md on that I m:ide my <IL·dsion that :m fnclr.pcndrnt invcsl:lr;ntion w:1s not warrantecl. I nm 11nt s :iving tk1t I am infnll:flile. T am not s,1V:lnr, thnt ·Jam noidtlvc- th11t 1 mn correct <•r sure that I mn correct. Al] that I 111n say .Ing is tl111t c,n ha1:inc:e J de, not th:lnk th :1t we c :111 evc-r rr0c.0ccl on tl1L• bns:f!'; of callinp, for invest .lrati.ons on mere allep,ntJons. 3727

April 5, 1973 Tape 10li4 JB-3 I stress the fact that I do not dismiss these allegations because they were made by a disgruntled employee,on his own admission. I did not. I could have done that. I did not do it. It would not have been the fair thing to do. It would not have been the oroper thing to do. J did not do it. I looked into them and I concluded, makinr, the decision ;md accepting responsibility as min1'1ter, I concluded thnt there was no need for a further independnnt investigation. Now, J am wllJ inp, to take that responsibility. I may be wronr,; I do not think that I am.

But I think it would be damagin~ to morale, not just the Power Commission, I am talking about our public servants generally, the employees of government. As ministers and I submit,as members of tl1is House we have a responsibility to protect our empJovces, to make their working condi.tions as favorahle as they can be m:tde, not accepting abuse for the sake of improvinr- morale, hut neither submft ting them ton continua] series of witch hunts based on alleentions only. Now, this :Is where you hnve to p,et proner hal nnce. It 1 s not always the easy th:lnr, to do.

J hnve made a decision in this cnse; I do not think that I nm wrong. }Ill. MARTIN: I thank the honourable minister for his exp]anati.on. I am prepared to believe that the thi.ne was handled fairly and properly. The quest:f.on that I wouJ d put to the honour11ble minister is this; having convinced himself that there is no need for a further investigation, should a subseqt:ent investigation prove that these nllegntions or any part of thc~e allegations were in fact correct, is the- honourah le the min:! stc-r prrpared to tnkc- tlrnt responsih:i 1:1 ty upon himiwl f?

MR._ J'.,\l<f,Y: I am not sun• what you arc s:iyinr,. Ain T prepnrrcl to take ,·lrnt rcspons:fhi 1:1 tv 11110n myself? ~f!l. HARTIN: J.ct me clarify it. Mr. Chairman, the honourahlr> the 111:fnistcr I th:! nk hns nrocecrlccl :In the pro1H•r manner. I ar,rec that '1-'e sh0ul d do 3728

A'!)ril 5, 1973 Tape 1044 TB-4 everything in our power tc- mai~tain a high standnr .d of morale f.n the civil service or amonr,st the employers of nny r,overnment ar,cncy. In thts case the m:lnister has investir:ated and proven to his own satisfaction that there is no need for a further invest:f.~ation of the matter. Should any subsequent investigation prove that certain allegations already charged are in fact corre .ct allegations . and that these parties or some of these- narties are in fact fuilty, 372D

April 5, 1973 Tape no. 1045 Pagel - MRW Mr. Martin. is the honourable minister prepared then to take the responsibility for having dismissed it at this time? MR. BARRY: What do you mean. am I prepared to take the responsibility? I just said as minister I take responsibility for what happens in my department. MR. MARTIN: Just for the record. MR. BARRY: As the minister responsible for the Power Co111D1ission0 I take responsibility for what happens in the Power Commission. If it should happen that it is revealed that this was an incorrect decision:

(1) I will ask why that happened and there will be certain responsibilities all down the line.persumably;

(2) The course that I personally will follow then,as I have to follow from day to day, is submit myself to the wishes of the Premier as to whether or not he still has confidence in me,following that decision,for me to retain the post of minister. lt is as sjmple as that. If I be wrong, then a question of whether my error in judgmentwere serious enough to make my further continuing as minister questionable. It is as simple as that. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I realize that the minister is on a sticky wicket. But, Sir, the - AN HON. MEMBER: I waa not in there after the moose. MR.

NEARY: No, Sir, J realize the mi.nister was not after the moose but some of his colleagues may have been using government helicopters and planes to fish, and catch 1noose. MR. HICKMAN: I, as one of the honourable" minister's collr.ai,ues, ask that the hon. member for Bell Island withdraw that remark. MR. NEARY: can prove it. MR. HICKMAN: MR. NEARY: No, Mr, Chairman, I will not withdraw that remark. I Then prove it. I cnn prove it that government pla11cs and helicopters were usc<l by minister::; to go on fishing expeditions last year. I am not point:lnr, ~t the honournl>le 111:ln:lste-r. 3730

April 5, 1973 Tape no. 1045 Page 2 MR. HICKMAN: Nor me, nor anyone else, MR. NEARY: If the hat fits him, he can wear it, MR. CROSBIE: If there are going to be charges made, Mr. Chairman, let us have which minister and when? MR. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: MR. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: MR. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: MR. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. CROSBIE: Oh, come on! Come on! Either that or just bluff out of it. Mr. Chairman, the - The honourable member should withdraw that statement. The honourable member will not withdraw it. Produce some proof, Yes, I will. Or the honourable member is a liar! Order please! A total liar!

MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I ask the Minister of Finance to withdraw a uonparliamentary remark that he should not make in this honourable House. MR. CROSBIE: Not bloody likely! MR . W. N. ROWF.: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. We went through this yesterday. The hon. Leader of the Opposition was directed by the Chair to withdraw an unparliamentary rernark,which he did ,to the satisfaction of the Chair if not the honourable minister. I would subm.i t • Sir, that the same rule, applies to the Minister of Finance. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, I will withdraw the appr.llation that the honour.:1hlc gcntlem,m is a liar and sny thnt he i!i a coward nnd a scoundrel, unless he produces proof of what he is saying. MR. NEARY: ----- --- Mr. Chairm;in, I a1n not r,olnr, to go to the mat with the honour,,hle minister. I think everybody is aware in this honourRblc House, Sir, who is r,uilty of name callini. We just trnw 3731

April 51 1973 Tape no. 1045 Page another example. I would like to ~emind the honourable minister, Sir, of the scandal on the Gander River. Let us have that. We can talk about that. We will deal with that later, the scandal on the Gander River, the love nest. MR. BARRY: To a point of order, Mr. Chairman. There is a rule of relevancy here. I do not think that there are any generating facilities on the Gander River or any contemplated or any allegations of moose being hunted on the Gander River by Power Commission employees • MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I am afraid that the kind of hunting that goes on on the Gander River is not relevant to this debate. But, Sir, the honourable minister is on a sticky wicket. 3 MR. CROSBIE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. Is the honourable gentleman r,oing to produce and make an allegation against a minister, that he used eovcrnment aircraft to go on fishing expeditions,or is he not,becnuse he made that statement and he can either back it up or withdraw thnt statement. There are eighteen or nineteen government ministers.

We want to know which minister, when, who he is making the allegation agaiast,and let us have the charge made? MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, when we get to the Budget Speech, if the honourable minister is still the Minister of Finance, he will get the answer. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the minister, in his explanation, was rather inconsistent and so was the minif ;ter - MR. CROSBIE: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: There is no point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR, CROSBIE: There was a charge made here today against some unknown minister. lie went in government helicopters out fishing.

Now we want to know,if that charge is going to be made, a~ainst which minister, what are the p:n:ticular.s, or we wish it with drawn. This fa a nonsubstantiated ~Pneral Rlatcment. 3732

April 5, 1973 Tape no. 101,5 Page MR.NEARY: Kr. Chairman, we already have chnri:ee. We already have very serious allegations and charges made in this House about corruption - MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! MR. NEARY: I am speaking to the point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! The honoursble member may address himself to the point of order but may not digress into any other matter which may be sub judice at the present time. 4 lie may direct himself to the point of order but only to the point of order. MR, NF.ARY: Mr.

Chairman, my reply to the honourable minister who raised the point of order is this: We already have on the public records, Sir. In the verbatim re~ort for June 27, 1971, it will prove this,of unsubstantiated, serious charges and allegations made in this House, that were not proven, that di.d not have to be proved. Nothing was <lone about it, Sir. They are still on the rPcord. They were charges made against me as an individual. It is a shot­ gun approach, Mr, Chain~an, that I used, I did not zero in on anybody. If the minister is guilty, if the hat fits him, he can wear it.

I have no intention of withdrawing it, Sir, because I will deal with the matter later when I .im speaking in the Budget Speech. MR. OTTENIIEJMER: Mr. SpeakP.r, may J. spenk to that point of order as well? The hon. gentleman for Dell Islantl made a statement that some ministers or minister had used the government helicopter for private fishing expeditions. MR. NEARY: Or planes. MR. OTTEN1lElMER: RiRht, hc.licopters or planes or boats for fishing and/or hunting. I sugr,est, Mr. Chairman, that this in effect is an accusation that n minister has used hin office dishonestly or i~i defrauding the 37~3

April 5, 1973 Tape no. 1045 Page 5 Crown because any government helicopter or aircraft is obviously to be used on government business and not for one's personal sporting activities. I would, therefore, suggest, Mr.Chairman, that the hon. Minister of Finance's point is well taken. The honourable gentleman should either prove that statement or withdraw it.

If not, eighteen or nineteen people are left under the blanket accusation which in effect is one of abuse,for personal reasons, of public funds, If any minister use a helicopter or aircraft not on the public service but for his own private interests, then that is in fact an abuse of public funds. What I would suggest is that the honourable gentleman should substantiate it, who and when,or else withdraw it. I do not think it is right, Mr. Chairman. As a matter of fact I do not think "right" is the right word. I do not think it is allowed under parliamentary procedure that that be left as is.

The honourable gentleman should either substantiate it or withdraw it. MR. W. N. ROWE: May I speak to the point of order. I do not quite honestly, Sir, having observed _ the proc~edings in this House for a number of years, see any point of order. One of the ministers or members might wish to raise n point of privilege or point of personal privilege or privilege of this House if they so desire. As far as the point of order is concerned, it has never been raised in that form in this House all the while that I have been here.

I remember very well two or three years ar,o the present Minister of Social Assistance was mal,inr, a simili'lr charr.c agninst the government, unspecif:f .cd, a general charr,e of the same n:tture. I can dig up the llansards if the Chair directs me. AN IION. MEMBER: February 27, 19 - MR. W.N ROWE: Well I do not recall. It was when we were in the administration. There was no point of order taken. There was no point of priviler,e taken at that time. As far as I can see, Sir, 3734

a April 5, 1973 ,II there is no point of order. l't!~re is disor.-\er as far ·-as the p - - procedures of 11 th:l!s !louse are conce'l:n~d. It is up to any member in this House if he wants to i-aise ··aiiy other point ;:- Then, too, Il l he will have to take the consequences of his own acti0l1 in ,E that regard, la far as order is concerned, Sir, I •-suhmit there • • ,II is no_point of order. $1.1 i, R MR. BARRY: The point of oi-der is p1,1rel'.y and simply t!_l:at allegations have been made "fl'ich would re'flec~ upon - the honour o\ members on this side of the tlouse.

This is clearly, according to "uHI Beauchesne, contrary to,page 131: ttNo member can b-e NJ.lowed to ·-attribute any t 1~tent to insult othet! ot to question ~he honour ;, :: of one or ••• 11 Tb.f's is the most cowardly Il l 373 , ,q I <. I I 'JI I I II k 111 I I :, I I Il l :: ll I I • . I ~ :'. ·- J ,ii

April 5, 1973 Tnpe 1046 method of cloin~ it, by t hrowf.np. out n bl nnket n1lep,ation that could refer to any member of this hon. llouR<?, If the hon. member ls takinr, that position,thrn he should hnve the courap,e to set out whom he is referrinr, to and be prepared to prove it or else with­ draw unequivocally the comments made. MR. ~EARY: To determine what I am.talking about,! will document my evidence at a later date. MR. BARRY: Until that is done, Mr. Chairman, it should be retracted. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please!

While the hon. member may document his evidence at a later date,the n1legation at the_ present time is unsubstantiated and the citation pointed out by the hon. Minister of Mines and F.nerr;y is quite correct,and I will repeat it for the record. "No memb~r can be allowed to attribute any intent to insul l others or to riuestion the honour of one. 11 The hon. member's statement is interprrted by the Chair as falling within thnt prescripti.on and the hon. member i!: therefore called upon to retract that statement. MR. NEARY: Retract what statement, Mr. Chairman? MR. MARSHALL: This is absolutely intolerable.

We have seen the likes of this going on since this session started. I am speaking on the point of order, Mr. Chaiman. If the hon, the member for Rell Island :J s not prepared to \.Tithdraw his aller,ations and imputations ar,ainst the honesty of people on this side of the House,then and in that event he can take the consequcncf's,but we are not r,oinr, to continue on in this vein for the next two or three yenrs. MR. NF.ARY: (Inaudible). MR. MARSHALL: ------- ~-- Oh yes, you will hear more. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Rell Inland npoke ,to a point JM - 1 of ordc-r whic:h had bc<'n brought to the :ittention of the Commf.ttcc Prcsumahly .it that point hC' knew whC'n•of he spoke. However, to refresh 3736

April 5, 1973 Tape 1046 his memory and to indicate what is demanded to be withdrawn 1 it is the allegation that certain government ministers used government aircrafts and/or helicopters to conduct private fishing trips, and these charges have been unsubstantiated by evidence and he is called upon to retract them. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, since when in this hon. House do you have to·retract a true statement, a statement of fact? When do you have to retract it? In the meantime,Your Honour has made a ru]inr, - MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the hon. member take his seat please?

The hon. member is called upon to retract and he is ar,ain, as two or three days ago, not to be permitted to circumvent the point of order nor that which he is called upon to do,by prefacing his retraction or otherwise with a long speech. The hon. member is called upon to retract and nothinr, else. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, may I ask Your Honour a question? What about the - MR. CIIAJRMAN: The hon. member is cn11cd upon to retract. MR. NEARY: No, 'Mr. Ch.,irman, I will not retract because it is truc.

It is a true stntl•ment and we have a precc-dent on the record, Sir, charr,cs made by the 'MinistE'r of Soc:! al ServicE's again!=it me that were unsubstantiated on the records. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member will again resume his seat. The precedent of .Tune, last year, is of no conscqu('nce whatsr>ever to this particular discussion. It is :l.rrelevaut and the hon. memht>r has been r,iven r:rcat leawny and the hon. member is obviously very provoked. MR. NEARY: All rir,ht, Mr. Chainnan, I will retract and I wHl deal wl th the m:itter under the cstirn:ites when we r;et to that depart111Pnt.

Now, Sir, if I may he permitted to carry on,nnd we wil 1 dC'al wJ th. that precedent whe_n the report co111cs in from the judic1~1 C'n411:lry,and I hope the hon. mfni~ter then will iet up 37~7 JM - 2

April 5, 1973 Tape 1046 and talk about the integrity of this House and the members of this House. Well we have rules of this House on either side - MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member should direct himself to Head 1101(01). The hon. member has just retracted a sta~ement and he is now going into irrelevancy by raising the point of debate again. The hon. mernbr.r should direct himself to 1101(01). MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, whnt I would like to have in this hon.

HouAC' now, I would lfkp to have it before we p.,ss the vote of this departreent,is the lor,, I would like to have the loi of all the time that was flown by government hclicopters,especially the Power Commission in Central Newfoundland for the last year. I would Jikc to have the lor,s tabled, Sir, before we deal with this vote. I th:l.nk the committee has a right to have that becaus~ certain allegations - MR:_ ll_A~: To a point of order, Mr. Chairman. I would be prepared to find out where to obta:ln the necessary logs.

I do not know if they arc :Inextricably tied up wltl1 ll1e operations of the aircraft but if they arc not, if it is hurnnnly poss:lble I will undertake to try nnd hnve these lop,s trible:cl for the Power Commission helicopter. llowcver,I think it is irrelevant and out of order at this time to refer to the logs of all r,overnmcnt aircrafts,and I ask that it be restricted - MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to have the logs of all the aircraft that were used by the Power Co~mission,giving a 11st of the ~crsons who were takr.n aloft aboard helicopters and aircraft, the purpo!H' of the trip, the number of miles flown by tlw:,c- td rcraft, the number of houn; th<>y W<'H' ;1loft and the names of nl l the passenr,r.n: Hho were carried on these- flir,hts. MR. llARRY : - -~-- - ·-- ---- !low many yenrs hack tlo we h;i\·<' to r.o1 MR. m:ARY: Just sJnce .Tnnuar)• l, l 972. Mr. Ckiirrnan, I am asklnr, the C]llP!,tions.

SJ r, the minJster used the flimsy excuse that these allegations that were made by what .,ppears to b~ a decent, honest JM - 3

April 5, 1973 l'npe 1046 Newfoundlander could not be investigated because it might nffect the morale of the employees of the Power Commission's operation in' Central Newfoundland. Well, Sir, my answer to that is this,that if they are not investigated by a independent committee under the Public Enquiries Act that :f.t will be more damaging to the morale of the employees of the Power Commission in Central Newfoundland. Mr. Chairman, let me point out that the allegations, the charr,es that have been made are not ar,ainst all the employees of the Power Commission.

It is only against the supervisory staff and the officials of the Power Conmd.s5ion. Sir, if the minister does not investigate it then the hourly paid employees of the Power Commission in Central Newfoundland feel that they are entitled to the same fringe benefits. MR. BARRY: Who was accused of playing cards for eight months out of the twelve? Who was accused? The supervisory personnel. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chair.man, if the minister does not investigate it, then the hourly paid employees of the Power CmrJ,dssion in Central Newfoundland should be given the same fringe bcnr,fits,as they are taxpayers too, Sir.

If a supc-r.v:lsor or an administrator or an official can use the r,ovcrnmcnt helicopters to go moose lmnti.ng or go fishing, then the same priviler,e should be extc•nded to the hourly paid employees. I would say,if it is not, Sir, then that would damage the morale of the employees of the Power Commission because I would say, Sir, that nincty-eip,ht per cent of the employees of the Power Commission in Ccntr:il Newfoundland are not in,olved hut unfortunnte] y wlwn somebody throws a handful of mud, Sir, you never know whc-rc- it is going to hit nncl they arc all t:;irred with the same hrush.

Now I will deal with tlic, do not worry I will dC"a] with th:it matter. When we r,et the lop,s in this House we wLll flnd out all ah()ul that. happen to be an eye witness to one of thei1e fi.shing expeditions and I could name the minister. If the Chairman h;id to push me muc-h further, T would have n.imC"d ldm, not only 011c hut two. One fnrltmntf'ly is res1r:nc•cl from thr. House now. r:ut, 3739 .TH - 4

April 5, 1973 Tape No. 1047 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the minister is inconsistent with the policy of the Tory Administration. Sir, does the minister know that at the present time there is an enquiry going on where civil servants are being paraded out in public? Yet the minister says, ''No, we cannot do that to the poor old employees of the Power Commission; but we can do it to the.employees of the Department of Social Services. MR. BARRY: Have I got time for a smoke? MR. NEARY: No, the minister does not have time for a smoke. I am going to wind this up now. So the government is inconsistent, Sir.

They make their own rules only when it suits them. I would suggest that in this case that the minister is taking the easy way out.

I contend Sir, that the only way that this matter can be cleared up, the only way that the suspicion can be removed from the employees of the Power Commission in Bishop Fn.lls {because right now you have the innocent probably suffering for the gu:1.lty, Sir I I think if it were investigated you would find out that there is only a h:rnd­ ful , only a handful of the employees of the Power Commission who were misusing the equipment and helicopters and the cars and their credit cards and what have you.

I think for that reason alone, Sir, it is imperative that the minister nppoint an independent enquirY, under The Public Enquiries Act. They do not hesitate, Sir, to set up a public enquiry on other matters. Why not this one? It :f.s a pretty Rerious matter, Sir, some pretty serious charr,es have~ been made. The minister elects to take the easy way out by brushing :ft off, by saying, "No, it will only hm·t the morale of the employees.'' I would say,on the contrary, Sir, if the minister does not carry out an invrstir,ntion it would cause ~mrse damage to the morale of the employees In that operation.

I think it should be done, Sir, to clear the aj r. There may be nobodv p,uil ty ,but let us find out. 3'7~0

April 5, 1973 1'npr. No. 104 7 NM - "J. MR. NEARY: Maybe this gentleman is a crackpot. I do not know. He did not strike me as being a ~ool, Sir. I have given the minister a copy of the letter, the case seems to be well documented. The minister now has the letter in front of him. There are certain charges and allegations made in this letter, Sir, that the minister did not deal with this afternoon. MR • . BARRY: One or two. ------ MR. NEARY: No, there were more than one. I hope the minister will follow through on it now and investigate the additional charges that have been laid, Sir.

This letter was written on March 15, When the gentleman in question first came to see the minister I believe it was hack in January - January 16. This letter was written on March 15, Sir, which proves that further evidence had come to the surface to indicate that certain things were going on in the Hishop Falls Power Commission operation that should not have been happeninr,. I hope the minister will investigate.for instance ,the Power Commission carpenter had to go to Sanely Point, Norris Arm, and work on the manager's summer cabin. The m:f.nistcr did not deal with that, Sir.

There are a numbP.r of other unanswered questions. As far as the cars are concerned, Sir, I do not think we got the full answer• I will just read what this r.entleman says about the misuse of company cars.

"There are five company cars, unmarked, unm1ed by Messrs." so and so, s0 and so, so and so, so ;ind so, and the minister has the list in front of him) "which are used hy those pC'oplP named,in the most cases hy their families,as well as :ifter hours." "Some people around Central Newfoundland were talkinr: ahout this - hnw the Commission employees were usin~ Commission cars, so now 1.•hen the Commission buys a nr.w cnr, tlu~y <lo not paint thC'm the Po,.•,, r Commi?.sion colour, so th£' people when they sec these cors, 3741

April 5, 1973 Tape No. 1047 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: think they are owned by the drivers themselves. They have five cars like this now. The same colour they were when they left the automobile dealer. When the people were talking - one car that is still beinr, used by Mr." so and so, ''that was painted Power Comm:lssion yellow and had the Commission sign on it, had the sign removed and was painted green to look like his own car. This car is being driven by Mr: so and so"right now." . Well what nhout that? Why were the colours changed? Why were the names taken off the doors? Why?

The minister did not give us an explanation for that. Did the minister know that the names had been taken off the cars? If so, why were they removed? What is wrong with having marked cars? MR. BARRY: Any cars that are supposed to be marked are n~rked. MR. NEARY: But are not all the cars operated by the government departments, crown corporations, are they not marked? The only unmarked car that I know uf iS the one that they had down in the motor pool - MR. BARRY: The one that Al Vardy used? MR. NEARY: No, the one the Minister of Soc:lal s·erv:f.ces used for six months.

That is the only unmarked car that I know about. In the Power Commission they have all unmarked cars now. Why? Why can they not be marked? MR. HARRY: Inaudible. MR. NEA"R.Y: The minister does not know the answer to that now. MR. BARRY: I d<.· not know th~ answers to the recent allegations. MR. NEARY: Well did th<! minister. ~ive instructions to have the names removed from the cars? !-fll. BARRY: No • MR. NEARY: Well, will the minister undertake to have the cars Have the n:imes put· back on them? marked ar,ain? Mn. 11/\'RRY: No.

The 111ini!.ter wHl undertake to find out what the pol:lcy 1'.1, whnt th~ r.:ltuat:lon l•; wilh exfst!nr, veh:lcles,ond report to the honour:~hle 111em\•l·1·. 3712

April 5, 1973 Tape No. 1047 NH - 4 MR. NEARY: All rigryt, that is _fair enough. When -will I get the answer, Mr. Chairman. MR. BARRY: As soon as it is available. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, -we are passin,:r. the estimates of this department right now. Can the minister go out and get on the phone and find out why the cars are unmarked and come back and let the committee know before we pass this item? MR. BARRY: There is a list of allegations set out there. I have a note addressed to the Power Commission now,requesting their explanation of the matters rajsed - would this be acceptable to the honourable member? MR.

NEARY: Yes, okay,Mr. Chairman, I am an agreeable chap. I do not mind waiting for a day. I hope it does not take the minister forever to get me the answers,like some of the questions we have asked in this House, we have not got the answers yet. So if the. minister can give me th1.s information in a day or so, I will be quite happy with it. MR. BARRY: As soon as possible. MR. THOMS: There is another - MR. Il/\RRY: Could I refer to one thing? MR. THOMS: Yes, sure, go ahead. MR. HMRY: Just one ooint I do not think I i:hould let r,o pass without commentinp; on. The. minister did nc,t take the easy way out.

The easy way out for the m:lnistcr would be to pull a Ponti .us Pilate and to refer it to an enquiry 11ml to wash his hancls ,,nd take no responsibility that would be the easy way out. But I felt there was a certain responsibility to the employee: ; of the Comminsion, I did not take the easy way out, I made a decision. Now I do not think thot is the easy way out. MR. THOMS: Mr.

Chairman, dud nP, last year, the r.ovcrnmen t carried out what they called a restructurinr, pror,ramme and I have• al rrady statecl in this TTousr.accorcllnr, to my estimation, this restructurin~ pror,rnmme cost nppro xim:itr.ly $1 million. 3743

April 5, 1973 Tape No, 1047 NM - 5 !!R-!.._JJ!OMS: Now during this restructuring pro2ramme, or as soon as it was announced or shortly after, within the minister Is department . we had,the deputy minister was retired at an early age, an early date. I wonder if the minister would give us the reason why this deputy minister was retired? Give us how many years and how many n1onths before this deputy minister arrived at the ay,e of sixty-five which is,I believe, the normal retirement age?

Tell us how much this minister received per month,because in the estimates of last year we had three deputy ministers listed .. ta total sum of $61,819. This was for three deputy ministers. Their salaries were not broken down. So I wonder could the minister give us that information and at the same time he may give us the total cost that this early retirement will cost our province? MR. BARRY: Well I should lnention that this is the prerogative of the Premier,as to the appointment or dism:!_ssal of deouty ministers. This is not the prerogative of the ministers of the departments, as 1 understand it.

This was done prior to my goinp, :tnto the portfolio. 1'he reason for the retirement, again I can give you what I believe the reasons to be, I cannot give you what the reasons of the Premier are. It was thf'. Premier's decision and it is his discretion and that is it. But I have already commented in the House, I think it was earlier this session or last session - this sess:f _on, on this point. I feel that a person who has put in as many

April 5, 1973 Tape ]048 PK - 1 years as this deputy minister had should not be just flung out into the street. I felt that the people of Newfoundland are prepared to recognize obligations they have or to show appreciation to conscientious p~blic employees who have made a great contribution to the province,as this deputy minister had. But I could see personally,and this is the factor that I brought up which had not been brought up, this thing was trashed out last year in great detail.

The factor that I brought out was that I can see a time when it becomes necessar} in a department,when you want a change, when you want an overhaul of the department, when you want a shaking-up of a department, when you want reviews of policy, moving into new policy areas where you have,and this is not a criticism of a particular individual, we are all like this. Individuals have certain,hangups would be the colloquialism for them. They have certain likes and dislikes, certain biases and prejudices, certain areas they are knowledgeable in and mainly conce!ned in.

When you want to get a new approach to a department,then it m~y become neces~ary to change the top person the re. This happens in businc-ss. The same thing,as far as I am concerned,can happen in government. Now with respect to the other question the dc>puty minister's salary that you referred to, n salary of $21,600 a year. The pre~cnt age sixty-two years of ar.c, pensionable at sixty-fivc. This individual as I have mentioned beforc is a veritable encyclopar·dic of past practices and hackr.round s on various l~Rislatiou and policy previocmly implcmentc>d. The pPrson is on call to the minir:ter whc-n required .

Ba!'lically I think th:! s an!;wer::; the questions and any othC'r questions the honourablC' member wants. · !_~~ _ _'fllOi,fS: Why was hC' retired? I _1ust state-cl that. You will have to ask the PrPmic-r hc>cause that :Is the Prc>m:lc>r's discretion the choice of deputy m1nisters, rcqt1<>sting dc>puty mi11istc>r11 to retire. J do not know.

April 5, 1973 Tape 1048 PK - 2 MR. ROWE~ They nre nppointed by Order-in-Council surt>ly, 1 f the honourable minister will allo~ · me, they are dismissed by. Ordc-r­ in-Council. So although it is recognized in practice as the Premier's discretion, the Order-in-Council applies, So all members were involved in it. MR, BARRY: The decision was that the department was moving into new directions and that it would be desirable to have a change in the management of the department and that decision was made. MR. THOMS: Why this particular deputy minister'? \~y was that not follow all the way down the line? HR.

BARRY: Because it was not felt necessary. MR, THOMS: Well was there something wrong with the policy of the deputy minister? Was he incompetent? MR, BARRY: I think I have already _ answered that. MR. THOMS: No you have not. No. MR. BARRY: Do you think it is fair to start going into the life style of a particular individual here and of a person who is not able to defend himself and make allegations of incompetence against a public employee. MR. THOMS: I am not making an allegation. I am trying to find out why the deputy minister was - MR. ROWE, W.N. On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

The honoucable member asked a question,"Was he incompetent?" The minister gets up and says he made allegations of incompetency. I would ask that the honourable mi.nister not make that statement because it is not true. It is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter which is not in 1fact true,from the record. MR. BARR.RY: He asked the question. MR. CHi\IRMAN: Order, plea~ie! The matter of debate between the two honourable rnembc-rfl as to who ulid what and how one or the other of the mc-mhl'rs unclc-rRtoocl wh1tt tlw c1uest:l.on or thr. nnRW<'r ~mR 1a not a point of or<l<"r. 3716

April 5, 1973 Tape 1048 Pk - 3 MR, BARRY: I have no idea whether the previous dc-puty mf.nister was or was not incompetent. None. MR. NEARY: salary? ?-ffi. BARRY: Do you have any idea why he is being paid the full What would the honourable member suggest should be done 9 assuming that the decision - MR. NEARY: On a point of order, Mr, Chairman. I am not suggesting anything. I am asking the honourable ministPr a question. MR. BARRY: Tha~ is no point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: That is a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CIIAIRHAN: Would the honourable iremhecs wish a ruling on that point of order? MR.

NEARY: No, forget it, Mr. Chairman. MR, BARRY: Once the decision was made that the deputy minister of the department is to be chanr,cd. Now that decision was made. Then what do you propose should ~e done with the previous deputy minister? Slung out with no salary7 Fired after a long and faithful service to the province? Ile wao paid full salary. lie :'.s on call. His particular background and experience and knowledge is still availablP to the provtnc£>. I consider that - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. HR. BARRY: Consider what? lie never workc-d under me-. MR. THOMS: ThPrc" :ts a reiu;on.

There is a reason and W(' hnve not r,ot it. MR. __ RO\-~ W.N._ I !!lean the honourable minister mir,ht dr,1w in all the red herrings he wants to about what do you sugr,cst we do with thi s man hut the obvious relevant point, Mr. Chairman, is that hc-re is a man who is f\Cttinr, paid, I do not know what,$20,000 11 year? MR. BARRY: $21,600. MR, ROWE:J__ W.N._ $21,600 a year. Now it is not unpr£>cedented for a rlC'puty m1nj stC'r to br removr.cl from that post and kc-pt in the• govc-rnmc-nt m' rvicc- :l.n 11 valuahlc- cnpncity. For c-~rnmp]C', th<" formc>r 37 ,17

April 5, 1973 Tape 1048 PK - 4 deputy minister of Justice, Mr.·Grcene was made - AN HON. MEl-IBER: Inaudible. HR. ROWE, W .N. I do not know what·happened there. Well that is not a reel herring that is a red , whatever they are up there - in any event, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Greene now serves a very valuable­ I would say, in my opinion a more valuable st"rvice now in whid he is given specific projects to attend to. The EPA deal was one of them, for example• 11e did an excellent job, applauded by all sides. I think he is probably involved in the - .AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible . MR. ROWE, W.N.

That may be a point, He might have been in disagreement with the policy. I am talking about the legal aspect of it. MR. NEARY: Is the honourable minister expecting the - HR. __ ROWV:2... W.N. Well now if I may be permitted, my colleague will restrain his outrage. MR. CIJAIJUIAN: Order please! The honourable th<> member for White Bay South has a rir,ht to he heard in silence, both honourable members to my r:f~ht and to my left. MR. ROWE,_W.N. Rir.ht, Mr. Chairman. But the point is that men who have put in long years of service have a great contribution to make to the government service.

The honourable minister has said that this gentlt>man who is, I would not call him a friend of m:fne but I am well acquainted with him. lie seemed to know a considerable amount about wliat was r,oinp, on in the area of the mineral resources in the province. Whether th<> minister agrcC'd with h:f,s policy or not :fs really irrelevant hec:a11sc• he could have been put in a position, Sir, as spc-dal advis<>r to ll1c• clr>partm<'nt or to the l~OV<'rnmcnt - AN HON. MJ:r-!liER: Inau<l:fhle. MR. }{01•!1-:, __ W.N._ Yes, lw is~ I will mc-ntion that point in p:issinr,, Mr.

Chnirrn:m, But Ill' could hav<' bet"n put in a position, a full t1.me position whc>r<' h<> ndvlr;(•<l on factual matt<'rs and this sort of thinp, which (.ould have> h<•1•11 of grent benefit to thr province•, II<' could have 37,18

April 5, 1973 Tap<:> 1048 l'k- 5 been taken out of a policy-making role. Now the ministf'r said he is on call. I would like to know when was the last time the minister called him up on the phone? How many times since the minister became minister has he had this gentleman in his office to ask him questions, to confer with him, called him on the phone? Any other officials in his department might have had him involv<:>d on certain projects and this sort of thing? I mean how often is this happening really? I would say it is not happening at all.

We have a role in this House to play, Sir, and it is to protect the public purse,and here is $21,600 being thrown out - MR, BARRY: Inaudible. NR, ROWE, W.N. Oh, listen to it. Listen to it, Mr.Chairman. The students were down there worked up to a fury · as a result of the parsimonious attitude of the Minister of Finance. MR. NEARY: lie hid away when the studt-nts came. AN HON. HElIBER: Inaudible. -- -- MR. CHAIPJIAN; Order please! MR. ~WE!_ W.~ Did you call order, Mr, Chainnan? Anyway I used to tliink the Minister of Finance had some AN HON. MEHBF.:R: Courage. MR. ROWE, H.N. Guts. But they went out of him, Hr.

Chairman, since he joined - MR. Cl!AU.MAN: Order please! The honourable member has certainly made his point, He may have been provoked into m1tkinr, his poi.nt by the Hini ster of Finance. llowc-ver1 the l1onour.1ble meuber h : as kPd to direct himi,c] f to Head XT - 01-01. 3 7 ,19

April 5, 1973 Tape 1049 MR. CROSBIE: I do not have to take this, Mr. Chairman, MR. RO\:)E(W.N.):_ No backbom.' left. Anyway, Mr. Chairman, our role in this House, the primary role we have here whr.n surply is going throur,h is to try to protect the public purse, Now $21,600 thrown out the wJndow rcally,as there is no other way you can paint the pjcturr really,and this applies not only to the minister's department but to other departments as well, fJsheries I believe and one other, two others really. Surely this man could have been kept on at work.

It would. have been better for him probably, from a psychological standpoint,doing his work and contributing to the province and certainly it would have been better from the standpoint of the p,overnment. I am sure that they would have gotten a good value 7 for their money paid,from this gentleman, So the point that my colleagues have made and which I am making here now is that it seems to me to be kind of reckless to throw away what has been called an encyclopedia of knowledr,e in this particular field.

As long as he is not required to come into work or not readily available and this sort of thing,well he is not really going to be performing that type of a service.

It is obvious that the minister,if something comes up the minister is going to refer it to his existing officials and they are going to cope with the problem and the existing expertise in their department is goin~ to try to cope with it, Really they are not goinr, to go after a man who may he in the province, he may be overseas, Surely he is not required° to hanr, around here twenty­ four hours a day waiting for some phone call whtch may come three years from now, Mr. Chairman.

So what they have done in this case,as well as in the other cases,is really wasted over $20,000 of the public money in each case • I do not think the minister - it was not the minister who did 1.t, it. was the r,overmnt'nt who did it,lcd by the Premier who JM - 1

April 5. 1973 T11pc 1049 JM - 1. in practise has the right to dismiss or hire deputy ministers. So the minister cannot be held directly, personally accountable on this but the point should be made here,that it is a waste of money. I suppose we are talking about what? Well . over $100,000 a year ,are we? Of public money wasted, men who have great human resources,as the term is, men whose human resource could be made use of by this government.

If the government did not agree with their particular policy ben:l they could take them out of policy making areas and put them in purely factual areas using their encyclopedic knowledge that the m:!nistcr has referred to two or three times. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister would tell us if there is any political patronage in his vote for George McLean? MR. ~ARRY: Not a copper. MR. NEARY: Not a copper. MR. BARRY: Not a jot, not a tittle, not a copper. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister could tell us who publishes the newsletter, the offshore newsletter we get every month? MR.

BARRY: Do you like it? MR. NEARY: No, I do not like it, Mr.. Chairman, because it does not provide any valuable information. It might be all right when we discover oil and gas. MR. BARRY: What? We have been having raids from all over the province ahout our ne-wsl.etter, compliments have come in from all across the island and it is done very simply, It is don1~ by Mr. Cahot Hartin who is providinr, valuable servjce to the province,as my lc~al adviser,and a lot of the work is done by a very competent and ca.pahlc younr, lady whom he ha::; as secretary, Mrs.

Gail Stack,who actually docs much of the sort:!nr. of matcrJ.n.l hcrscl r am! types it up and is di. rector, editor, prodt!ccr and writes the c-clftorillls :md the whole works. Rut I think he- is 3751

April 5, 1973 Tape lOl19 providinr, a r,ood service. Tlte main idea is whc-n we report say information on what is happening in the North Seafit is not because we are sayinr, this is what is r,oinr, to happen out here tomorrow but it is to let businessmen see the sort of services that are required by oil companies, to let them see the sort of action that is going to he available and that is available in the course of exploration. This is beinp; done and all the comments we have had is that this is a very useful report and I personally think it an excellent idea to start it.

JM - 3 The hon. member for Bell Island had a couple of questions. lie wanted me to p;l't into them the other nir,ht, MR. NEARY: Yes, that js rir,ht. On the monitorin~ down in St. Lawrence and the oituation in Buchans, Sir. MR. BARRY: Yes, I have some inform3tion on all that. I do not --- --- - know if it is the snme order hut the hon. memher asked for the qualifications of our director of enerr,y resources. This iR Mr. Stephen M. Millan. The position was advertised nationally, last December.

There were thirteen applications received and selection was made by the department 'on the basis of professional qual:l.fications, the extent ancl relevance of experience, recommendations supplied by former employers, univc-rsities nt which the candidates stuclf Pd, personal references etc. and on personal interview. Mr.

Millan recc-ivi:d the nachP.lor of Science, first class honoursi in r,t>o]or,y,at un:lversity. lie has completecl nc;i<lemic work for his Ph.D. and i~ currently conn] cting his d1<'s:I s. ll<' hns extensive cxp<'ri<'nce in t lw offshore petrol c>um resource cvnl.untion fie] d and also operational experience. lle was an nrca gco.1.or,ist with a large petroleum company with particular responslbilities for Eastern Offshore Canada at the tjme of recruitment, a very capable individual with the most attractive appl1cat1on that was received.

We set out to attr;ict h:lm to NC'wfoundl ;iml an<l we did and I think we nrP p,oinf~ to rct very r,no,1 service- frorr thin 1nc11vidual. 3752

April 5, 1973 Tape 1049 Now wjt~ respect to St. Lawrence,we received representation from the union at St. Lawrence concerning the need for an additional radiation monitor. The situation has become a little confused because of the fact that as far as we can understand this is one of the terms that is being negotiated with the company now, the need for an additional radiation technican. AN HON. ME'MnER: (Inaudible). MR. BARRY: Yes, we have gotten this indirectly. I do not know. It has not influenced p.overnmen~ policy here.

One of the problems that have arisen here is that as far as we can make out there is a shortage of equipment that is required for the necessary work to be done here. At the present time suppliers of some of the equipment have increased their prices very substantially for equipment which although it was sold as having the same characteristics as the older equipment, that is the et1uipment now beinr, used, has been shown to have different characteristics which are not at present accrptabJe. It is a technical problem in gett:fnr, proper additiom1l equipm<>nt. Alternate suppliers are beinp; looked for rir,ht now.

This i.s,hy the way,information I. have rc•cdved from the Mines Inspccti.on Division. ThP equipment involves the process of nir irnmplinr, which :Is one of the functiom1 carried out hy the radiation technican. C.ovcrnment pol:f cy has:! cally :Is that we recor,ni zc nnd we nre sympathetic. with the views of the union conccrninr, the need for governml'nt involvement and government supervision of the rarliDt:lon monitoring. The feed-back we have r,otten from the union is that th~y are not 3 r•J r· 3 .. j • 'I JM - 4

April 5, 1973 Tape 1050 prepared to have this become a company task. Mr. Dnvid Rex,if I am correct - I am pretty sure thnt I am - is an emoloyee of government who just r,~ccntl y ,a couple of months ago - this :Is Tll-1 one of the problems that the union came on - he had some probhims because of his status.

He w11.s on a contractun] bas:11, for the last three or four years or something and only in the last couple of months has he been brour,ht on full-time as a full-time civ:11 servant and there was some nroble111 with his salary and fringe benP.fits and stuff and his cl;:issification that the union were concerned about at the time. This has been straightened out and Mr.

Rex I know is doing a good job down there and the union have expressed satisfaction with the work he is doing but at the same time they did sugiest that there is not sufficient monitor:lnr,,in their opinion,during the night sh:lft,and this is what is ~ausinr, the concern. The mines insrection division have been asked to look into this.

We arc going to h;:ive to make representation to Treasury Board once the rcoort of the m:lnPs :lnspcC".tfon d:lviidon ns to the need for an additional technician is received. llas1cally our government policy is that whatev<"r 1s necessary to ensure thnt the proper s;:ifety standards arP aill1ercd to will be done. I ment1onP<l the equipment problem just because if you r;et an additional tc>c-hn1d,m, then there is additJonal equinmcnt needed and there nppears to he some snarl-up there in ohtafn1nr, thi~ nt the present time.

Another quest.ion th.tt the honourah] e member asked wns with respect to Advocate Mines,nnd he referred to them as ast ,estosis problem:. I am not quite clear :If it was a problem. Well, the report that I have received from the mines :Inspection division is that there are dusty areas in the mine, and concentrated. A recently completed dust survev,coverinr, the nlnnt from Octoher, 1972 to March of 1973,shows th:at co11dfticmn r,Pnrrnllv nrc verv mnch improv<-rl. There 1irP 11 11miterl n11111IIC'r of lll"'IIH 'v.•ldc-h n•q11fre f111tl1t·1 · 11 ,odlfic11tlon (lr f11rtlwr "'l'ripment 3751

Aprll '.:>, 1973 1'llpl' 1050 111-1. installations to reduce the dust ioad to acceptable limits. In most of the areas where occasional high readings are encountered, this is often due to lack of attention on the part of personnel employed in the area. For example, some part of the dust extraction apparatuF may require removal during the performance of a normal maintenance procedure and a system may be temporarily rendered :Inoperative until that

part is replaced. This type of failure of the dust contr~l i;ystem is r:lr,ht down the human side rather than the equ:lpment side. Attempts have been made and are continuing to be made to eliminate this type of failure and this is being carried out by traininr, prop;rammes which appe;ir to be productivc,and the company is being requested to provide a programme

schedule for the installation of the remainin~ dust control equipment and the details fo their programme to mainta:ln salubrious working cond:1 tions for their employees. So, the mines inspection division is on top of the situation there. They anpcar to he satisfied that the proper steps are beinr, taken to keep the dust at the proper level in the mine. I do not know if there :Is any other th:lnr, ari1:dnr, out of this that ·the honourahle member nd.p;ht have. I would he glad to try and nnswer it. The honourahle member also raised the matter c.oncernin~ Ruchans, thP. ta:l.lfngs affluC'nt.

Now, this conics directly within the scope of tlic Dc:-nartment of Provincial Clean A1r, Water and Soil and also the Provincial Aff;1.irs and Env:I ronment. Also, the Federal Department of fjsheries has an import here. So, our department would not hllvc ,,ny renorts concerning the pur1 ty or lack of toxicity of the liquid nfflur.nt from the tailinp,r; poncl at Buchans. T,dlinr,s whJch wrrC' in-ftf,d .ly lwinr, flung out to the lnke have hcrn -fmpo11nrlecl fli11c-C' 1966,at the r<:'quest of th<:' Feder:ll 1lepart111<'nt of Fish<'rics.

As an .isiLI(• herc,1t ir; in one wnv fortunntc t.hnt they have J,cen, bec;iuse i.t nppcnrs thnt this is one t,f the Buchans ta1lings,.:ind one of the most prospective :trc;i!J for bari tc th:it ,,_,c now have -f n the: province is th<' Id r.h 7 I':' r:-'. 3 .) ,)

April 5, 1973 Tape 1050 IH-3 barite content in these tailings This is presently being looked at to see· if this cruld be commercially developed. This as you know is the so callc>d heavy mud that they use in dril linr, operations offshore. There are a number of areas where this is found but the taiJin~s from the lluchans mine contain a very hir,h content. Unfortunately up until 1966 this was beinr, lost by going into Red Indian Lnke. So, they have impounded since 1966 and since that time the Federal Department of Fisheries have been monitoring the flow and the purity of