LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CO-OPERATIVE DEVELOPMENT Time : 8:00 p.m . MR . CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (V irden) : Co-Operative Development , Resolution 40 l. (b) (l) . Call the Committee to order. The Member for The Pas . MR . RONALD McBRYDE : Mr . Chairperson , I wondered if the Minister wanted to comment first on the comments of the Member for Lac du Bonnet before I ask him. • • MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . HON .

ROBERT (B ob) BANMAN (L a Verendrye) : The Member for Lac du Bonnet, before we had adj ourned for the Private Members ' Hour , asked what the reserve regulations were . As of November 1979 when the regulations were passed , the credit union shall establish and maintain a general reserve equal to 3 percent of its loans . Now, in order to arrive at that particular figure , the credit unions have been asked to set aside a minimum reserve annually of 1/4 of 1 percent until the 3 percent is attained .

So that means that the sooner they arrive at the 3 percent , of course , they don't have to put away that annual rese rve any more , but up until the time that they hit the three percent , they will have to, over a ser­ ies of years , put away 1/4 of a percent every year . MR . CHAIRMAN : (l) (b) . The Member for The Pas . MR . McBRY DE: Ye s, Mr . Chairperson. I wanted to comment earlier , and I couldn 't get the floor, on the comments of the Member for Minnedosa on my earlier comments . And one thing , Mr .

Chairperson , is that my comments in terms of the credit union as opposed to the bank in helping to develop the rural economy, I think that even the Member for Minnedosa would agree that more of the local money stays in the local community through the credit union than through the bank , even though banks do relend money in the local area . The part that bothered me the most though , Mr . Chairperson , about the Member for Minnedosa 's comments was the misinterpretation of what I had to say . Because , Mr .

Chairperson, I don't believe in what the Member for Minnedosa talked about and sort of attributed to me in terms of government interference , government regula­ tion and government control. What I was talking about - and I know that the mem­ bers of the department are familiar with my comments on this before and generally react in this manner - is in terms of backup and support in the syst ems , and not in attempting to take control of local co-operatives but being able to give advice and assistance when that is need ed . And , Mr .

Chairperson , we would have never had the deve lopment of the fishing co-ops in northern Manitoba , nor I'm sure a number of the retail co-ops in northern Manitoba , if that kind of support service wasn 't there from government , because the local communities didn't have the resource and the expertise and the knowledge initially to establish these kinds of operations and these kind of functions . So when I talk about the level of support in government involvement , I am talk­ ing about government involvement in ter ms of a backup kind of service in terms of giving support to the communities .

And I mentioned , I talked previously in the Estimates and in the House , in terms of the way that you give that kind of support and advice, because there had been and there is always a danger of in giving sup­ port and advice and assist ance for the development of fishing co-ops and retail co-ops , of in fact taking too much authority from the local people who are doing it.

And then we had the example in one community where people referred to their co-op store as the government store , which doesn 't say very much in terms of their understanding of co-operatives , and it didn 't say very much in terms of the ap­ proach that was taken by the co-op develo pment peop le , at that particular incident in time . I think that has changed quite considerab ly , but at that particular - 2123 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 JX>int in time , it didn 't say much about the kind of assi stance that was being given. So , Mr . Chairman , I'm not sure of why the mind-set of the Member for Min­ ll:ldosa would as sume automatically when I talked about government ass istance that I was talking somehow about interference, because I think that 's sort of against the ta.sic principle of the co-operative movement and of the credit union movement where , in fact, it 's people doing things for themse lves .

What I was talking about , in terms of outside of Northern Manitoba , is that there are the existing cred it unions which probably don 't need very much assist­ ance from government , and probably our most exist ing co-operatives don't need much assi stance from governm ent , but where the need is still necessary is in terms of those operations that are just gett ing started where people are interes ted , that this is one instrument availab le . And certainly that has to be the role of the department in Northern Manitoba where I'm more familiar with, Mr .

Chairperson , in terms of if a community is looking at moving in a develop ment ventu re , what is the best instrument for them to use and to have the co-op people go and explain what a co-op can and ca n't do. Mr . Chairperson, I'v e disc ouraged some communities from using the co-op instru­ ment in terms of a retail store , because I said until you get the full support of the community , then there 's not much sense doing it . Because people are going to go to the other store or he 's just going to lower his prices for the first few weeks the co-op store is in existen ce, and everybody 's going to go there .

Unless people have a fu ll understanding , that 's what 's going to happen and have a commit­ ment to the co-op store before it 's ever started . There 's no sense a small group or a few people in the community starting it . Everyone in the community has to have a commitment or a good majority of people have to have a commitment to it before it 's going to work . So that is the kind of support and backup , and educa­ tion process. I don 't really understand the Minister 's reason for sel ling off at a very low rate the program that was developed .

Because certainly other depart­ ments of government give lots of assi stance in terms of curriculu m , to student s, and to schools in terms of what their department represe nts and what their depart­ ment does . I mean, there 's lots of school programs that probably wouldn 't get along without all the information that comes from the Department of Natural Re­ sources in terms of wildlif e and those asp ects from federal and provincial govern­ ments . So , Mr .

Chairperson , I think that the sale of co-op curriculum to inform students of the Co-op curric ulum was just an example sort of of the cont inuing downplay or the lack of emphasis given. And this is again the aspe ct, Mr . Chair­ person, of the government putt ing all its eggs in one philo sophy or one app roach to development of an area , and this government now, the present government of Manitoba , gives a grant to the Junior Achiev ement to teach young people in the schools how to be entrepreneurs and how to be free-enterprisers . And I guess that 's very appropriate , Mr .

Cha irperson , because it teaches them how to use government money to develop their own enterpri se . And , Mr . Chairman, that 's the way a number of businesses do devel op , so it is appropriate training for the young peop le , in terms of how to apply for various government grants etc . , to use government money to be entrepreneurs . But , Mr.

Chairman , then I think in the same manner , that people should be fully informed of how co-operation works economical­ ly , and how the co-operative and creait union movement works in our society , in a mixed economy like Canada , and a mixed economy like Manitoba , the role that the co-op movement can play . And , Mr. Chairperson , I suppose that 's part of my gener­ al philosphy or my general idea of educat ion, that people should be exposed to as many options , as many ways that things can be done , as possible .

For the same reason I support teaching people about labour unions in our schools, because people 'should be aware of labour unions and how they operate . It should be part of the education process .

And certainly private industry makes all kinds of material available to our schools in terms of sell ing their point of view and their economic philosphy etc. , and I think that it continues to be worthwhile for this Minister, and I am ple ased that he is at least not opposing , not act ively opposing the co-op curriculum that was developed and is giving some encouragement now from a dist ance, now that he has sold it off , but at least giving some encour­ agement from a distance for the use of this program , in which he was in direct contradiction for comments made by the member for Minnedosa from his chair, when he said that even the Co-op College had given up on that curriculum , and the Min­ ister contradicted the member for Minnedosa in that regard because the col lege has - 2124 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 not given up and is further developed and is trying to make that curriculum avail­ able on as wide a basis as possible . So those are my comments to this point on this secti on, Mr . Chairperson. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member from St . George . MR . BILLIE URUSKI : Thank you , Mr. Chairman, I was interested in the Min­ ister 's comments in respect to the reaction, or his perceived reaction to some of the school trustees in the province of Saskatchewan with respect to the Co-op Program .

Could the Minister tell us what his feelings are towards the program and how he perceives those react ions that he was al luding to by the trustees in Sas­ katchew an. Is that his feeling about the program that the department has sold? Is that one of the reasons that the government has sold the program, because of his agreem ent , wi th that type of reaction? Could the Minister give us his com­ ments with respect to that program? MR . BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, I guess we can go through it again.

I think we debated it pretty long during the last Estimates , but let me just say that the agreement that we made with the Co-op College of Canada , I believe , is in the best interests of not only the co-op movement in the province of Manitoba , and I might add after delib eration and after speak ing with the co-op movement in the province of Manitoba , this is one thing that 's been overlooked, that the Co-op Council of Manitoba , which is comprised of the Manitoba Pools , the UGG , and all the whole co-op system , recommended this particular move to myself. So , Mr.

Chairman, I think that we have the best of both worlds in this

part icular instan ce. For instanc e, they have indicated to us that there is a feeling that the people in Quebec have shown an interest in this series. They will now be possibly under­ taking the translation of this particular material into French, which again will help Manitoba in that we have made an arrangement that these materials will be provided over the next couple of years to us free of charge , and then as the pro­ gram is developed , all they will charge us is the cost of printing. So we bel ieve that it is a pretty good deal for the province of Manitoba .

We will not only be able to over the next number of years receive any books that we need in our school system free of charge , after th at , after they have finished some of the programs which were not finished and have expanded on some , for instan ce, into translation in other areas, we wi ll be able to benefit from that by only paying the cost of printing , which I think is very reason able .

The problems that we 've had , and we go into it aga in, is one department of government developing a particular curricu lum program and then tel ling the Depart­ ment of Education that you are now going to put that on the shelf , and that is obje ction. And interest ingly enough , it 's one of the obje ctions that the Depart­ ment of Education had with regard to this program , not only with this government but with the previous administration.

It is the same sort of thing that has come up now within the Department of Co-operative Development and the school trustees in the province of Saskatchewan and it 's sort of a reoccurrence of what happened here about a year and a half ago , and they are expressing some concerns . But I think that the agreement that we made with the Co-op College of Canada is a good one and I think that Manitobans will benefit from that because it 's a body which is made up of all the co-operative people throughout the length and breadth of Canada .

They have the resources , they have the people in plac e to promote th is, and I think that the co-op movement in Canada will benefit from this particular agreem ent . MR . ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I was interested in the Minister 's comments where he indicated that this move to transfer the course to the Co-op College was made after consultation with the directors of the co-op groups, council of the province of Manitoba .

Was that decision made in consultation with this group after the Council was aware that the government had totally withdrawn the program and shelved it and pressured the government then to do something about it , and this was an alter native to put the program back in some perspec tive , at least to sal­ vage something for the province of Manitoba and was this, at that point in time , that the government indicated that they would be amenable to that kind of a move , - 2125 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 at least to salvage something for the province of Manitoba? When was that deci ­ sion mad e? MR . BANMAN: Well, Mr . Chairman, the deve lopment and the dis cussions that we had , first of all with the cred it union movement and then with the co-op coun­ cil , was to ask if they had any interest in further developi ng and further promot­ ing this . It was felt by them that the best body to undertake this and endorse the gover nment 's move in having the Co-op College of Canada take it over, who have the resources to develop the program. MR . URUS KI: Mr.

Chairman, could the Minister indicate for my knowledge - maybe I don 't have all the available data available to me - how much of the course was not complete in terms of what is considered a total package , or were some portions a basic course complete and there were some additional parts of it not complete? What was complete and what wasn 't complete? MR.

BANMAN: There were certain portions of the kit that was supposed to go in the total package which had to be develop ed; and the other problem is - we foresaw it and as indicated later by the Co-op College - is that a number of the areas had to be upgraded and brought up to date, and that was a substantial amount of work involved with regards to that. So I ca n't give you a percentage of what was completed , but a fair amount of the books were completed , but the total pack­ age - I think there were some film strips , about another two-thirds of the film strips had to be completed .

Some of the work with regards to that had been done . But there were a number of things - updating - as well as a total putting together of the package that had to be done . MR .

URUSKI : The Ministe r then indicates , or at least can I take from his comments, and he may want to take it otherwise , that basically the data had been gathered with the exception of some updat ing of some of the latest material and some visual aids that were not complete in the course , but basically what one would consider the textb ook portion of the course was complete with the aids in terms of visual and pictorial data having to be added to the material . Am I being unfair in my judgment or asse ssment? MR . BANMAN: I'm advised , Mr.

Chairman, that about 50 percent of the kit information had been printed , and that there was another 50 percent requir ed. Some of the work had been done , but other stuff was still in the planning stage s. MR . URUS KI : With respect to the kit when - maybe let 's get into it and let's just find out , what did the kit entail and what was missin g from the kit? Is there a kit available ••• MR . BANMAN: We supplied everything we had last year . MR . URUS KI : To the members? MR . BANMAN: Yes. MR . URUSKI : Okay . So then, is that an updated one , or is that the one that was there at the time? MR .

BANMAN: That 's the only one we had and it was - if you want to call it an updated one - it was the only we ha d. MR . URU SKI : I see . What has been changed now since the Co-op College has had the kit? What changes have been mad e, or additions? MR . BANMAN: I'd have to get the exact di fferences for the member. MR . URUSKI : Pardon me? MR . BANMAN: I'd have to get that for you . I haven 't got those kits here . - 2126 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 MR . URUSKI : Could the Minister supply us the kit and how much of a di ffer­ ence there is now in the kit that is bein g supplied to schools? I gather the Minister gave us figures today that there has been an interest in Manitoba schools, and some of the program has been distributed to schools by the Co-op College . What di fference is there in the material that is being distributed now as it was then? Is there a substantial difference, or what is the difference? MR . BANMAN: I'm advised , Mr .

Chairman, that there are three staff men working in the Co-op College right now to complete the kits and complete the whole package and upgrade them . So , as far as I understand , that the kits per se that we 're talking about developin g and that were not develope d, have not been com­ pleted to date . What has been di stributed , and what has always been available to the Manitoba schools, are some of the textbooks which the honourable members received last year. I think the member remembers that , and they were distributed in the House to the membe rs .

So there is, right now, the updating and the final preparation going into that particul ar program. MR . URUSKI : The Minister talked about having a difficulty with respect to the Department of Education and the Department of Co-op Develop ment in being able to sort out the , I presume , jurisdictional or professional differences with res­ pect to who shall or who shall not promote the course in the schools.

Was there a basic program outlined , a course of ac tion outlined in the Department of Co-op Develop ment as to who shall promote the course and who shall carry out the distri­ bution of the material as it was being completed , the preparation of which was being completed? MR . BANMAN: The promotion of the book was carried on by the de partment . Every school di vision - and I haven 't got the numbers here , they are in Hansard from last year - were sent X number of copies.

I think one school division re­ ceived over two hundred and some copies of the textbooks , not of the final kit , and were told that these books were available , and should they wish any further information to contact the Department of Co-op Developmen t. The things that we have done with regard to co-op promotion in schools is upon request , and we do receive that , whether it be from Keewatin College or from whereve r. When people ask that we come and speak about co-ops , we come in to put on a little seminar for the student s, and so there is constant promotion going on .

But we did provide all the groups with the books , showed them what we had , and there were a number of people that did tour a number of the schools promoting the program. And I must stre ss here , that is as far as the Co-op Department went with regard to that . Now if the school boards in their wisdom do not wish to pick up that particular pro­ gram , then of course the promotion work becomes something that you can question whether or not it 's been effective or not.

But we feel that by having the Co-op College , which is not a government agency , go to bat and promote this, not only in the schools, but I think there 's a certain responsibility in here , if we have credit unions , whether the credit unions or co-operatives throu ghout the province who have a good membersh ip , I think it 's up to them and through the Co-op College , I think this can accomplish this, and I know the Co-op College will be talkin g to the different directors throughout Manitoba as well as some of the other prov­ inces.

They can app roach their own school boards and can approach the people in their areas with regards to the promotion of co-ops . I think that is in keeping with the whole sp irit of the co-op movement , to have people , who by the courage of their conviction , and their belief in the co-op system , go out and promote it. We made those books available , but I don 't think it 's up to my department to go out and twist arms and convince school boards that this is the type of thing they should be teachin g .

I think that there is a responsibility on behalf of the co-ops themselves to get involved , and I think that this responsibilit y has been given to them now through the Co-op College who are developin g a good package and will be able to go ahead and promote it very actively . MR . URU SKI : Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate whether initially when the department promoted this , whether the books were provided at cost , or were they provided gratis , and what is the situation now with respect to any - 2127 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 school division undertakin g a program. Would they have to buy the books or will the province supply the books that are required? What was the situation? MR . BANMAN: As I pointed out in the press release when we made the an­ nouncement in Saskatoon at the Co-op College of Canada , one of the , I think , benefits of this particular program is that over the next several years the Co-op College will provide to Manitoba schools that wish to avail themselves of this particular program, the material for no charge . In other words, the schools can receive this material without a cost .

Once the kits are completed , the updating has taken place, we are in the unique position to be able then to buy this mater­ ial from the Co-op College at the cost of printing . In other words, the updated material should be translated into French and we have some Caisse Populaires in the Province of Manitoba that would wish to use them, we will be able to , under the agreement , buy those books at the cost of printing.

Now the original distribution to all the schools in the province was at no charge to the schools at all , so that there were no restricti ons placed on anybody that didn 't want to come up with some money . That condition exis ts for the next couple of yea rs, that the schools who wish to use the material that we sold to the Co-op College will be able to avail themselves of that materi al. I think it is a good arrangement for the Province of Mani toba ; we can tie into it any increased activ ity within that particular Co-op College with regard to this promotional program.

In sp eaking to them , they have a number of people working on a few ideas of their own with regards to the curriculum developm ent , and if we can avail our­ selves at a relatively low cost to those ma terials, and should the credit union system as well as the co-op system here start aggressively promoting that , I think it is a good deal for the Province of Manitoba . MR . URUSKI : Thank you , Mr. Chairman. How long will the agreement the Minister talks about with respect to having the material sold at the cost of printing , how long does that type of an arrangement last between the College and the province?

Is there a specified period of time? MR . BANMAN: No time frame . MR . URUSKI : So unless there is a fundamental change in the textb ooks and the basic materia l, then the Minister indicates that the agreement is in perpe­ tuity . Or , you know, for the next decade , ten, twenty years as it is foreseen, there is no problem . Okay . Thank you . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR SAMUEL USKIW : Mr . Chairman, again , I have been very much amused by the further comments on the part of our Minister, with respect to accessi bility to the curriculum material for our school sytem .

The Minister is suggesting that the co-ops themselves should promote education related to co-operative develop ment in Manitoba. Wel l, you know, that may be proper, but then I think if he is adopting that position we would then have to delete whole sect ions of our present cur ricu­ lum , which I suppose one can interpret promotes non-cooperative economic develop­ ment in the province .

So really what the Minister is saying , that if want to talk about banking we wi ll feature the Royal Bank in our text , at public expens e, but if we want to feature the Steinbach Credit Union we shall do it at the credit union 's expen se . That 's rea lly what this Minister is saying . Wel l, Mr. Chairman, if you examine the text , and I haven 't examined a recent one , but one of the reasons why we went into this proje ct was we wanted to redress the imbalance that was al ready in the text , and the text dealt with banking as ban ks , not as banks and credit unions .

When they talked about the elevator company , they didn't say there 's Manitoba Pool Elev ators , which is a co-operative , and then there is Patterso ns , or whoever else . They featured a picture of a elevator that was esse ntially empha sizing the private sector, non-cooperative sector. The co-op sec tor is a private se ctor. But there is a built-in bias , has been over the years , within our school system for what used to be the case before the co-ops came on the scene in this province, and all we were trying to do is redress that - 2128 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 imbalance so that each side gets sort of equal play as an educational tool in the school system . Now the Minister is saying yes , we will continue to feature the Royal Bank , but if the co-ops want the credit unions ment ioned in the text they 've got to pay for it. That 's really what he is saying . Now Mr . Chairman, that's not good enough.

We happen to have a lot of people in Manitoba that participate with cred it unions, are owners of credit unions, tens of thousands of them , that I think dese rve a lit tle more than that , and you know I'm shocked because the Min­ iste r happens to come from a community that is heavily involved in the co-ops and the credit unions , for him to take that positi on; 352 ,0 00 credit union members in Manitoba , Mr . Chairman , and this Minister is saying they should have the major role in funding the educational thrust on co-operat ive develop ment . MR . BANMAN: No, I never said that . MR . USKIW : Mr.

Chairman, the Minister indicated ••• MR . BANMAN: You can get the books for nothing. MR . USKIW : The Minister indicated that if they wanted they can ask for them and they will have them at the cost of printing. MR . BANMAN: Nothing for the next two yea rs. MR . USKIW : That 's what he said this evening , they can have them at the cost of printing , and they can receive them from the Co-op College in Saskat­ chewan. But , Mr .

Chairman, unless you are wanting to continue the discrimination, that implied that we ought to delete whole pages out of our present text that emphasizes other types of economic activi ty , and I think that it is time that the bias was removed. Heavenly days, we 've got enough people interested in co-op develop ment to warrant a degree of balance in our school texts so that the student body knows that there are alter natives as to how they would want to participate in the economy in Manitoba . This is not available to them in a fa ir, unbiased manner today .

Now the Minister says, well, but if they desire it , we will telex Regina , and they might give it to us, or they will give it to us . Wel l, where is the role of the Minister? Where is the role of the government of Manitoba? If they want it? Education isn 't something that someone has to ask for; it has to be avail able , full and complet e. Mr. Chairman, it is ju st not sufficient to argue that it is available somewhere in Canada and on request it can be supplied . I think that 's a cop-out. We had the program establ ished ; this Minister disb anded it and , Mr.

Chairman, he says that he disbanded it on the recommendation of the Co-op Council of Manitoba . Well , Mr. Chairman, let 's recap that for awhile. Because when this government announced that they were going to disband or get rid of this materia l, so to speak , and I believe they used fairly strong terminology at the time , the Co-op Council met with the government and indicated to the government that they had been involved in preparing this material and pleaded with the government to continue with the proje ct. But when the government stood firm, Mr .

Chairman, and they came to realize that the only way to save this project is to put it in the hands of the Co-op College , ye s, that 's when they came back to the government and said , okay , if you don't want to continue , then we recommend that you give it to the Co-op College or offer it to them in the hopes that they would sustain some benefit for Canadians out of that ef fort that was made here in Manitoba . That 's the history of it, Mr . Chairman. So let 's not forget how this developed . Mr.

Chairman, I would like to know from the Minister whether he knows how he ranks with his sister province to the west in terms of provincial government in­ volvement in the area of a Co-operative Develop ment Department , the global dollars and cents figure? How does this Minister compare with other jurisdicti ons ; how does he compare with the province of Saskatchewan with respect to the amount of support the public is providing through their tax dollars for a co-op develop ment thrust? - 2129 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Logan. Did the Member for Logan want the Chair? MR . JENKINS: We ll, I thought the Minister was going to answer. If he is not prepared to answer at this time , then I'm prepared to •• Thank you , Mr . Chairman. You know, the Minister brought up a very interest ing topic in the discussion that we have been having here this afternoon and this eveni ng . He said that school trustees are not in favor of this program.

There are many programs , I imagine , in the school curriculum that are laid down by the Department of Education that the school trustees are not in favor of and they still have to teach them . We had a unique situation here , Mr. Chairman, in this province. We had a curriculum course prepared by Manitobans , printed by Manitobans , available for Manitobans .

The curricul um branch of the Department of Educat ion, and I know we are straying a bit , but since this topic is here , have curriculum courses in this province of books , courses that are prepared not by Manitobans , in many cases not by Canadians , but by Americans , by people in Britain , courses that come on here that often give a very biased view of what our current events are , our his toric events are . You know, children today are wanting information , and I think first of all mostly want information about their own country and , in particular , their own province. We have the opportunity here .

We presented a curriculum. It 's unfortunate that the Department of Educati on , and I think since the change of government, it reflected a new change in pol icy . There certainly was a change in policy , because since we were involved in government at the time in developing this course , there was never, to my knowledge - and I was not a member of Cabinet but there are three former Cabinet Ministers here - there was never this sort of complete rejection by the Department of Education that what the Department of Co-operative Develop ment was doing was not accept able .

It was a program that seemed to be in tune with the Department of Education at the time . There are many topics, as has been pointed out here today : The history of the trade union movement and how it operates with­ in society . You know, we want to prepare our children for the world society when they leave school . Our children leave school today , if they are in the academic stream , are the most ill-prepared for a job in society .

They have no job skills if they come out of the straight academic stream , and that includes the universities, if they come out of the B.A. and Bachelor of Science in the ju nior level . They have no saleable skills on the job market today . We are doing a hell of a lot better job out of our community col lege s. These people are get ting better jobs than those who we have sent through the straight academic stream . I say that the departments of education, not only in Manitoba or in Canada , but in the United States as well, have done one hell of a job with their curriculum , a hell of a job.

They can 't keep the kids in school because they are not interested , because what they are learning is Mickey Mouse stuff . They are not learning about the facts of life and this is how you are going to learn the facts of life , by having a curriculum that makes some sense to people . True , I quite agree that we should be teaching all aspe cts of society . But I'l l say that the banking society has made sure that in the textbook s, they are better mentioned . There is more mention of them than there is of other alt ernatives in our society . I have nothing against the free enterprise system . It works we ll.

This is a free enterprise system too . This is enterprise by people • MR . BANMAN: This is one of the freest forms of enterp rise . MR . JENKINS : I agree with the Minister ; it is one of the freest forms of enterprise that we have . It is people that are banding together to work for their own bene fit . But unfortunately it has been downgraded . It existed in previous governments before the New Democratic Party came in as - what was it - in the corner of the Department of Agriculture . I think that 's where it was.

My wife , when she first worked in this country after she came over here as a war bride , worked in the Department of Agricultu re . She worked for Mr. Darwin Chase and Edmond Brossier - I think Brossier was his name , close , something like that. She was a bil ingual secretar y for the chap from the Caisse Populaire . But - 2130 - •

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 it was just a little , sort of an adjunct atta ched onto the Department of Agricul­ ture , sort of forgotten, and went on for yea rs. The Minister gave us some interest ing figures , and I would like him to update them sometime before we are through with this department . I think he said that the figures , now we have approx imately 352 , OOO people who are members of credit unions and caisses populaires in the province of Manitoba , starting from 1975 which I think we started with 29 5,0 00 .

I would like the Minister to update those figures between 1976 , 197 7 , 1978 , 197 9 - his staff is here . Show the membership rise , show their assets. And I know the numbers of credit unions and co-ops , as the Minister has sa id , there have been numb ers of mergers within the past few years . I know that is true of the credit union that I belong to . The same thing , I would like an update on the co-op, how they have develop ed. Just how have they developed since 197 5? Let 's have a look at the figures. These are something that we wou ld like to see .

I would also like the Minister to - not only this Minister, but the Minister of Education last year , because I think we had a pretty good discussion last year in the Departm ent of Education on this program, and it 's unfortunate that they over­ lap into one department and then the other. But that 's nothing unique or singu­ larly that happens just in these two de partment s; it happens in many de partments because there is an overlapping. But just how many kits were di stributed? We heard that there were kits dist ri­ buted .

If I remember correctly last year , there were not that many kits distr i­ buted , when we look at the amount of kits that were available . So I would say to the Minister that perhaps we can have an update on just how many of those kits were distributed at that time . But again, I come back to this idea of curriculum. People within the teaching profession - I know I have one here - there are people who have lived within that ivory tower ana they seem to think that they have a sole God-given right to decide what curriculum should be .

And I think that if we want to make education inter­ est ing for our young people , we have got to open up the whole Department of Educa­ tion , the whole curriculum process , and get in all the aspects of our community life and national life and provincial life into that curricul um so that we make that time that children in that learning process, so that it is interesting to them. The programs and curriculums as they 're set up in today 's schools are as dull as ditchwater , the kids are disintere sted .

It is only because certain teach­ ers are innovative and they do certain things that are on their own outside the curriculum that impress children . But the curriculums that have been set up - and it was the same under our government , it 's been the same under every government I think since Day One - it 's been a dull, ditchwater sort of a curriculum.

And unt il we get - this just happens to be an example of an at tempt to try and bring some fresh ideas and some fresh thoughts, and flush out some of the cobwebs that are existing within the Department of Education and the curriculum branch and the curriculum commit tee . For God 's sakes let get out into the Twentieth Century. We 've been in the Nineteenth Century long enough , or Eighteenth Century . Our teaching methods are an attempt to try and keep our children within the schools. It 's failing . We are turning children out .

They are leaving the schools, ill-prepared for the world of work ; and we all have to go out there and work one way or anoth er, whether it 's with our han ds, with our head , or whatever it is. But we have to turn these children out into society, and these are our future generations. There has been some small measure of getting fresh ideas in, but unfortunatel y this government saw fit to throw this idea beca use , ideological­ ly , I think they were opposed to it .

Perhaps some of the text was a little too strong and I don't see the Minister of Economic Development here this evening , but I know last year he took some very strong exceptions to some of the examples that were used in the texts that were prep ared . I think that 's more than anything , the mental ideological block that the Progressive-Conservative Party had . Once they read these certain things , throw these things out , these are Bolshevik ideas, they 'll corrupt our young peop le .

My God , I have far more faith in our young peop le , that they will be able to assemble and assimilate all factors of our society , the whole fabric of our society , and make their own minds up . Surely to God we 're not going to just spoon-feed them , this pap that we 've been spoon­ -feed ing them with for the last hundred yea rs. Because if that 's what you 're going to accomplish - and perhaps the method of setting up this curriculum was the - 2131 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 wrong way , I don't know - they say hindsight is 20-20 , but to my knowledge there was no great argument at the time that this program was being developed at that time with the Department of Education. The argument seems to have come in sinc e we have had a Progressive Conservative government in this province , not before , and all of a sudden what was seemed to be a new idea in the curricul um branch here in Manitoba and the curricula that would be available has now bec ome taboo .

And I agree with the Member for Lac du Bonnet , the only way we could sal vage , the co-ops and credit unions could salvage this program, because the government was prepared to dump it and I'm sure if they hadn 't have gotte n 28, 000 they would probably have incinerated it . So they got 28 , 000 for a program that we spent approximately half-a-million dollars for. And a program that , by the Minister 's own admission , the Co-op College of Canada, the cred it unions and co-ops , even the caisses populaires in Quebec are tremendously interested in it .

So this was not a political hang-up that the New Democratic Party was on, try­ ing to preach their philosophy to the children of Manitoba . It was pointing out one facet of our society , that this is one way that people can proceed in their economic life . They can go on a strict one for the Member for Minnedosa , who is a banker. And I have friends in the banking industry , some I served overseas with an d I know them , they 're retired , they 're nice fellows .

But I can assure you - and the Member for Minnedosa said he belongs to the credit union too and he owes more money to the cred it union than he does to the bank - we ll, maybe that 's his way of gett ing back at the credit unions , I don't know. --(I nterjecti on) -- Right . I can assure you that my banker friends that I had down in eastern Canada were not members of the credit unions or cai sses populair es. They were real hard-nosed old bank ers, and I remember having many a discussion with them on the relative merits of their banking system and the credit union sys tem.

For some people it works , for some people it doesn 't work , but I think the choice should be there . And the only way that our young people are going to know that there is another alternative economic system of financial transac tions and being able to make your money work, is through credit unions , co-operatives and cai sses populair es. But many people don 't find out about this until later on in life , and the option should be there for our young people , so that they know that when they go out and start to work, that if they want a bank to do their financial transac tions they have the banking system.

And I say there 's als o the trust companies and the finance companies, they should be also within a curriculum , showing the relative merits. And I guess if we see what 's happenin g to the finance companies today because of the high money lending rate s, that they 're having to borrow from the private banks and then in turn pump another 6 or 7 percent on to p, they 're having to close their banks up. It 's a good job maybe the WHA folded up because AVCO, which was the presenter of that cup , may be wanting that cup back to bail them­ selves out . --( Interjec tion)- - Yes, me lt it down.

Maybe it 's not even pure silver at that. But , Mr. Minister, I say to you , and I say to your gove rnment , that you have muffed an excellent opportunity . This was just one small step toward broad ening the curriculum that is available to the children of Manitoba , and I think we were unique in that sense . We were the first government in the ten here across Canada that was making a small dent to make something else available to the children of our school system . And I would say that it shouldn 't just stop here .

There should be other aspects of our whole fabric of life that should be introduced into that whole curriculum system because as I'v e said before , it 's pap and dull as ditchwater and that 's why we ' re losing our children out of the school system. -- ( Interje ction)- - We ll, the trade union movement is another example, but that 's not the only one . The Chamber of Commerce should be another one because some of our students may want to become members of the Chambers of Commerce and Manufac turers ' Associati on, and I think that they should be there for them to see .

Junior Achievers - I think the government has put some money towards that. But industry does that too. Perhaps the co-ops and credit unions are a little bit slow on the job. Maybe they should be having a co-op or credit union achievers sort of a program. That is something that • • • But neverthe less , as far as the curriculum is concerned , I - 2132 - •

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 think that this is the responsibility - not of this Minister really - that respon­ sibility is a responsibility of the Department of Education and the Minister of Education. -- (I nte rjecti on) -- And when we get to the MR . CHAIRMAN: Order. One speaker at a time . MR . JENKINS: If the Honourable Minist er wants to debate this, he has his opportunity . I have 30 minut es. I don 't know how much time I have left , Mr. Chairman. --( Interjection) -- Oh , yes , but the program that we 're talking about was developed by this department . It was developed by this departm ent .

Maybe the Honourable Minister does n't realize it. And if he needs any elucidation on that I' 11 be glad to tell him how the program was developed . Perhaps he hasn 't. I have the time here within the time limit that I have , but he can sit down sometime when he 's having coffee with the Minister of Co-Op Development and --( Interj ecti on) -- We ll, the member wants to throw his snide remarks out , that 's fine . I could make snide remarks about some of the other Deputy Ministers that were here previously before , Orlikow and others. Some of them sat here for many years and slept pretty woolly-headed .

Because I'l l tell you something , Mr. Chair­ man, through you to the member there , that the most innovative programs prior to the strangling of the economy by this government in years previous was done by the Winnipeg School Division No. 1, they did the innovative programs , not the Depart­ ment of Educat ion. -- ( Interj ection)- - Those are the people . And they can't afford it , Mr. Chairman, because this government has seen fit to put education in the scrap heap where they figure it belongs .

And they have passed on the cost to those who are really creatures of this Legislature , municipal councils , school boards , they 're creatures of this Legislature , because they crea te, we create them. Their ju risdic tion is under this government and you 're starving them. And as long as they 're starved, there 's going to be nothing creative out there . But , Mr. Chairman, I think I have pointed out to the Minister the fallacy of what you have done .

You have taken the opportunity to open up the Department of Education to fresh ideas , and we 're going to be sitting there with the same old ideas 50 years from now. I hope not . MR . BANMAN: We ll, Mr. Chairman, first of all let me make it understood that over half of the materials that were produced by the province , by the Depart­ ment of Co-Op Deve lopment , were dist ributed free of charge to the school system . So over half of it was distributed to the school system for them to look at and use and see how it felt it should fit within their system.

So we did not hold anythin g back from them, half of the materials went out to them. The member asked for some comparisons , how we stacked up with some of the other jurisdi ct ions . What has happened over the last number of years right across west­ ern Canada is the consolidation of some credit unions , as the member mentioned , and in some provinces it has been even more dramati c than here . And let me take for example the example of British Columbia , in 1975-76 they had 183 credit un­ ions ; in 197 8-79 they have 167 .

Manitoba had in 1975- 76 , 192 ; we now have 197· Saskatchewan had 249 in 1975-76 ; now have 236. So it 's very close and what 's happenin g really is that because of certain management problems and that , the smaller credit unions have amalgamated with the larger ones, so it does n't really mean that they 're not providing that service to the membe rs. But the membership numbers are up significantly . 1975-76, as I mentioned be fore, is 295 - and I'm rounding them off now for the members - 29 5, 000 ; 1976- 77, 317 ; 1977- 78, 33 2 ; and 1978-79' 351 .

Now, along the same line , I'l l give him the growth and the asse ts ; 1975, $638 ,0 00 ; 1976 , $782 ,0 00 ; 1977, $955 ,0 00 ; 1978 , $1 .14 billion. MR . JENKI NS: Just a minute , Mr. Chairman. MR . BANMAN: I'm sorry , I'm sorry, Mr . Chairman. MR . JENKI NS: There 's something wrong with the Minister 's addition here because he has a tremendous ju mp from - and that 's why I asked the Minister ••• MR . BANMAN: No, no , it 's million, I'm sorry. - 2133 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 MR . JENKI NS: The first figure you started out with you said $6 38, 000.0 0. I think you meant $6 38 millio n. MR . BANMAN: Million, I'm sorry. MR . JENKI NS : $782, $797 , was it? MR . BANMAN: $955. MR . JENKI NS : No, no , I mean the . . . MR . BANMAN: $782, $955, $1 .1 4 billi on. MR . JENKI NS : Thank you . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. The Member for Logan . MR . JENKI NS : Now, could we have the same figures for the Co-ops , for the same period? Does the Minister have those figures available? MR .

BANMAN : No , I haven 't got the assets here , but I can give you roughly the membership and the number of co-ops. In Manitoba in 197 5-76 there were 275 co-ops ; 1976-77 it dropped to 273 ; 1977- 78 , 273 ; 1978- 79 , 276 . And this com­ pares almost exactly with Saskatchewan - we ll actua lly , Saskatc hewan has dropped over the last four yea rs. MR . JENKINS: These are the number of co-operativ es. MR . BANMAN: The number of memb ers for 1975-76 was 117,0 00 ; 1976- 77, 12 3, 000 ; 1977- 78, 140 ,0 00 ; then we had a dramatic ju mp in 1978 to 185, 000 . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR .

USK IW: Mr. Chairman·, the Minister obviously doesn 't fully appreciate the impact of the effort that we were embarked on some three or four years ago, and the arguments that are being put forward in support of that effort here this evening . That particular illustration is just but one illustration that I out­ lined to him moments ago .

A whole host of things in the - and this is not the place to debate it obviously because it has to do with the Department of Education - but just as an exam ple , I noticed a document that was shown to me by a consti­ tuent where the teacher had to scribble out the word "stat e" and write in the word "province" because the material was obviously American material brought into the Canadian School system and wasn 't brought in with proper revisions , but they had to pencil them in.

Now this is part of our probl em , and when we looked at the curriculum proje ct relating to co-operatives and the history of them and their develop ment and a teaching aid within the co-op idea , we undertook that on the basi s that it was time that we had some input into developing our own school program, our own cur­ riculum , made in Manitoba , Mr . Chairman. And this is but a start in what we consider to be an important area of our economic life , and there is much more to be done . And , Mr.

Chairman, I don't mind admittin g to members of the committee that when we first broached the subject with educators in the department , they kind of raised their eyeb rows and they sa id, well, but you know you 're going to rock the boat a bit . It 's been this way for 100 years , and some people might not like the addi tions or the changes that you want to have the dep artment agree to. It was not an unexpec ted raction , but they were not of a mind to resist , Mr . Chairman, they were very co-operat ive .

The project was undertraken jo intly as be tween the Department of Education and the Co-op Department , and we have the former Minister of Education here , who was very much involved in that exercise . So when the Minister suggests that it wasn 't proper for one department to impose its sort of ideas or demands on another de­ partment , that is nonsen se . This Minister is implying that the dep artmental heads - 2134 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 will be the policy , the people that det ermine the policy for the government . Wel l, Mr. Chairman, we don't elect departmental heads, we appoint them , and they are to respond to the policies of the government that is elected from time to time . And perhaps this Minister doesn 't know that . Maybe he is of the opinion that he is elected in order that his dep artmental officials tell him what he must do in policy areas . I don't know. That certainly is not my perception of govern­ ment , Mr. Chairman.

So there is no room for anyone to suggest to me that policy decisions ought to be det ermined beyond the ministry , because what the hell is the ministry getting paid for, Mr. Chairman. That is his funct ion. Yes , he needs an awful lot of advice, and hopefully uses some good advice from time to time , but it is his responsibility to det ermine the policy and the direction that his department takes and that his government follows. So any bureaucra tic static has no bearing , Mr. Chairman, on where this province is going to go as far as I am concerned ; if I have anything to do with it, no, it has no bearing .

If there is a determination to move in a certain direction, the bureaucra cy 's role is to respond to that determination , and that is the proper political process , Mr. Chairman. Now, Mr. Chairman, the Minister should take a look at the province west of Manitoba , because that province has a population very much the same as ours, about a milli on people . Now their budget for their Co-op Development Program is some­ where in the order of $2 .5 mlllion , which is not a great deal , but you know, that compares very favourably to this Minister 's $826 ,0 00 .0 0.

I can't even recall the figure that it was at two or three years ago . But in any event , I know it was in excess of $1 .5 mil lion at one time . Now, this Minister has taken an atti tude that because we have a co-operative development department on pap er , that it would just be too much to scrub it , so we 've go to keep some sort of image or face for the people that want to partici­ pate in the co-op movement in this province. But that 's as far as it 's going to go as far as this gover nment is concerned , Mr . Chairman.

That is the image that I see in this Minister 's efforts and on the part of this government . It 's pure lip servic e. I don't know why we have a department because , Mr . Chairman , this could very well function back in the kitty-corner of Agriculture or some other depart­ ment because it 's back to status quo ante in terms of the ef fort that is being put forth forward in co-op developm ent . So let 's put things in their proper perspective . The province of Manitoba surely could afford more than what they are providing in these Estimates for Co-operative Developme nt .

I believe that there are suffi­ cient numbers of Manitobans very much interested in co-op develo pment and the cred it union movement , and that should be recognized more fully . Now unle ss , Mr. Chairman, this Minister believ es, as has been suggested to me out in the corridor, that maybe we ought to have a tag day for co-op devel opment so that his dep artment would have some money to function with, and that 's really the sum total of his effort as Minister of this department and it 's not good enough , Mr. Chairman, for the people of Manitoba . MR . BANMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I take certain exception to what the member has just said . You know, he bases his premise on one thing , and that is, the more money you put into something , the better the thing will happen. Mr . Chairman, he has been in the field long enough to know that ju st because you throw money at a particular thing , doesn 't mean that the results that you achieve are the ones you want to achieve . And I am tel ling the member now , I believe that I have a group of individuals in the co-op develop ment department that are doing an admirable job, are handlin g the si tuation very well ; we 're doing a good job.

MR . USKIW : Even with one hand tied behind your back. That 's right. MR . BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, you know, the problem is that you have to com­ pare apples with apples in this thing . He talks about Saskatchew an . We all know that Saskatchewan has , when we 're talking about the co-op movement , has many more co-op ' s than Manitoba has ever had . MR . USKIW : Why? - 2135 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 MR . BANMAN: Because , Mr. Chairman, that is where they were started or1g1- nally in the first plac e. The other thing that has happened in Saskatchew an, Mr . Chairman, and that has nothing to do with what the members were trying to ac com­ plish before , is that Sas katchewan was unique , unli ke Manitoba , where we have over hal f our popula tion in one la rge area .

And many of the areas , and I talk about Humboldt, Saskatchewa n, and many of the other small er towns , they had many more small er communities which did not have the different services open to them , which were open to the people in the province of Manitoba . But le t it not be said that the department la cks in providing response to the system as well as to people who are interested in the co-op movement because of lack of funds. We bel ieve we have a good unit that is working well together.

I should point out to the member al so, that a number of years ago , in 1974, we det ermined that we would le t the system itself do its own aud iting . That result ed in a major change in staffing . That was one of the major change s. We used to go out and do all the physical audits of everybody and it was understood , I bel ieve , by that administr ation , that what would happen when that facil ity was given over, that there would be a natural attrit ion of some of the staff, as it went on. Saskatchewan still does a certain amount of aud iting , and as a result is then responsible for higher staff ing.

But the interest ing thing , Mr. Chairman, is that the province of Alberta , which has almost exactl y the same number of cred it unions , has a few more co-operatives in their system, has just about the same staff compl ement that we do . So I don 't think we 're far out . I think that my staff is doing a good job in promoting the co-ops in the province of Manitoba. The fishing co-ops , as I mentioned be fore, have never done better. They are doing extremel y we ll , and we 're happy that they 're doing it on their own.

All the help we 're giving them is in audit ing and seve ral other things, but I think we have a depar tment here which the province of Manitoba can be proud of and I am sure that the co-op movement - and I think that 's the sort of the proof in the pudding in this thing ; you sit down and talk to the people in the co-op movemen t, which I do , Mr. Chairman, on al most a monthly bas is, are fairly happy with the direction that we 're going and the initiatives that are being provided and the response time with regard to that . So , Mr. Chairman, I will sit here and take some of the • -- ( Interjection s)- - MR .

CHAIRMAN: Order. MR . BANMAN : • • some of the criticism, but I think if you sit down and you talk to the cred it union movement , the Caisse Populaires movement , as well as the co-operative movement out there , you will find a gene ral consensus in that group that this government is doing something to help them help themselv es . I think everybody in the committe e real izes that 's what the co-op movement is all about .

As I mentioned before , I think it 's one of the freest systems of . free enterprise we have and we 're providing a good service to them - just because we 're not throwing all kinds of money at it , doesn 't mean that we 're not doing a good job. MR . CHAIRMAN: Corrections . The Honourable Minister of Community Services and HON . GEORGE MINAKER (S t. James ): Mr. Chairman, prior to the comments made by the Member for Lac du Bonnet , his last comments , I thought maybe , Mr .

Chairman, that we should be on page 40 of the Education Department deal ing with curriculum, developm ent , and program develo pment and support services , becau se , Mr. Chairman, the Minister has indicated that books are availab le that promote the co-operative movement and the credit union movement for the education system free of charge for the next two years and at cost thereafter.

I think the honourable members on the opposite side forget that we as a government do not fall into the trap that they did of disorganiza tion, where they had costs of education hidden in different part s of the departments of, say the Credit Union, or the Co-operative Devel opment Department , and they are promoting this same type of approach with our government - 2136 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 which we would not accept , because the Minister has offered the documents or the books to the Department of Education.

I would suggest to the honourable members opposite that if they have a dispute with regard to what curricu lums we are presenting in our education system, that they deal with that under the education system, not under this department , and that we 're not prepared as a government to hide the costs of education under this particular dep artment where they have at some time in the past , because we feel that we should present to the people of Manitoba where the true costs are and what they 're for.

They may go on for hours about the fact that these books should be provided and people from the de partment should go out and spend time in the De­ partment of Education and so forth.

I would suggest that if they have a complaint with regard to the school system and whether or not the co-operative movement and the credit union movement is included in our curricu lum at schoo l, they should discuss that and debate that matter under the Education system , not under this particular de partment , because the actual back-up material is available to the Education Department as has been indicated by the Minister that it's available for the next two years and thereafter at cost . I don 't see any disp ute that they should have with this proposal that the Minister is offering at this time . MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows . MR . BEN HANUSCHAK : Mr. Chairman , the Honourable Minister of Corrections just mentioned that if we have any criticisms to make with respect to the co-op education program , our criticism ought to be directed at the Department of Educa­ tion. Well, I would ju st like to refresh the committee 's memory , if I may , Mr. Chairman. As has been mentioned by a number of col leagues of mi ne, this was a unique program, this was quite a marked dep arture from the tradit ional education route that had been followed for the last century or more.

The Honourable Member for Minnedosa said it 's a brain-washing program . The unfortunate thing is is that the kids in our school system had been subjected to a brain-washing program for over a hundred years and it 's about time to develop a program that would enable and motivate the children to think for themselves and to resolve their own problems , which was the main thrust of the co-op education pro­ gram which we develop ed . And for that reas on, the development of a program was undertaken on a joint basis involving two departme nts , the Department of Education and the Department of Co-operatives.

I should also ment ion, Mr. Chairman , and I am sure you will recall this point having been brought to the committee 's atten­ tion last year, that there was also a third party involved with deve lopment of the program in add ition to the Departments of Education and Co-operatives , but also the teachers and the school boards out in the field .

And if the Honourable Min­ ister would check the first two or three pages of the co-op education program, the credits page , he will find the names of all of the schools and the school divi­ sions listed who participated in the piloting of the program and carrying it through its experimental stag es.

So , because there was a recognition of the need for input from the Department of Education , the educational leadershi p, the expertise and the co-ordination that the Department of Education was able to offer, and also a need for the involvement of a department which would be able to examine the program from a practical point of view in terms of its application to the day-to-day operations of a co-op move­ ment as it affects each and every one of us , and hence the involvement of a de­ partment of co-operatives.

And then of course the involvement of the schools, because they are the ones who are going to be ultimately responsible for the deliv,ery of the program and hence we want the feedback from the teachers in the system and receive their comments as to how well certain portions of a program have been design ed, what improvements could be mad e, etc. , of changes , and those have been done . Now, the Minister had mentioned that one-half the materials have been distri­ buted to the schools; they didn 't hold anything back , and the program is there for use by the teachers . That is true, Mr .

Chairman , but there is one very important ingredient lacking , and that was the ingredient which we had made provision for, namely , the provision of an in-service training program for the teachers who will be using the materia l, to demonstrate to them the most effective use of it, ways and means in which they could integrate the use of a co-op education program with - 2137 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 the teaching of other cours es; Social Studi es , well, it covered the whole range from Social Studies to Mathema tics and you name it, and the program related to all facets of our education program. Well , it 's that component which is presently lacking . It 's true , the material is there somewhere in the school system , but there is no one out there in the field to assis t the teachers in showing them how to use that material in the most effective manner for the benefit of the students in our schools.

The Honourable Member for Minnedosa had muttered under his breath when my colleague , the Member for Lac du Bonnet had made reference to the fact that Sas­ katchewan is spending $2 . 5 milli on in this department , and we something in the order of $800 ,0 00 , and so he said that , well , Saskatchewan has potash and oil . But , Mr.

Cha irman, I would like to point out to you that the reason why Saskat­ chewan is spending $2 .5 milli on , is not because it has potash and oil , it 's be­ cause the government of Saskatche wan recognizes the need to spend the type of money that it has appropriated in this particular department , recognizes the need , the role and function that the co-op movement serves in our society . The Honour­ able Member for Minnedosa says that they want to brain wash the children. Wel l, Mr.

Chairman, the co-op movement took root in Canada and the world long bef ore any department of education ever thought of includin g a co-op education program from the school system, and it managed to take root after centuries and centuries of being brain washed by the capitalist system. Neverthe less, the co-op movement was still able to take root and flourish. But the province of Saskatc hewan does recognize the need , it does recognize the fact that it does have quite an extensive co-op movement , but it also recognizes the need to further devel op co-operatives.

Now when the Minister says that, well , he meets with the co-op movement on a regular basis and the co-ops say , oh, they are pe rfectly happy , nothing more need be done . But , you know, Mr. Chairman, the Minister is speaking to the wrong people. The Minister is speaking to the wrong people . I have been a member of a co-operative for a quarter of a century . I'm a member of a consumer co-operat ive , a member of a credit union. I suppose as far as my own personal needs with respect to the co-op movement , I have what I want out of the co-op movement .

So if one were to ask me , is there anything more that I would want in the area of the deve lopment of the co-op movement personally , my answer perhaps , speaking as a man on the street , would be , "No, I am quite satisfied ." But , Mr. Chairman, what about the many areas in the province of Manitoba , in the remote communities and so forth , within which there is still a tremendous amount of work that should be done and can be done to develop the co-operat ive movement to enable people to work together in an atte mpt to come to grips with and resolve their own problems .

Those are the people that the Minister ought to be talking to , and not just the executive officers of the co-op movement becau se , as I have said be fore, those are the wrong people to speak to .

Now, the Co-op Education Program which this Minister gave away for less than ten cents a pound , less than the price of the paper that it was printed on and then says, well, it is also there in the schools for teachers to use , but without any at tempt , and we will follow this up with the Minister of Education ; we will attempt to det ermine what assist ance the Minister of Education is offering the schools to enable the teachers to effectively use this materi al. I am sure that I could tell you this right now, Mr . Chairman, that we won't find one dollar assign­ ed for that purpose in the Education Est imates.

So the material is ju st left there to lie and to die a natural deat h. Now, I would like to remind the Minister, Mr Chairman , that the Co-op Education Program, as my colle age the Member for Logan had mentioned , is a unique program ; as someone from the government side referred to it, as an Orlikow Development . Yes, it is true that Dr .

Orlikow was Deputy Minister at that time and certaintly was very much involved in the develop ment of this program , but I would like the Minister to know that this "Orlikow Development," as it has been referred to by a government membe r, has been recognized by a number of outstanding universities in the world , namely the University of Ottawa , the Harvard University , and the Uni­ versity of London, and by the faculties of education within those univer sities . The educational value of it has been recognized by those univers ities.

So it has received some world recognition, not to mention the fact that it was very very well received by a Commonwealth Conference of Directors of Youth Secretariats and , - 2138 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 in particular, by the directors of the youth secretari ats , or whatever their coun­ terparts are called , in the developing countries of the British Commonweal th.

Those people saw the validity , the effect iveness of the program, the manner in which it could be used not only in the schools, working with children, but that it also had an adaptability to it that made it useful for use in an adult education program and working with youth and working with young adults in a very clear , simple , logical, sy stematic way pointing out that the alt ernative to competitive is co-operation and fact that there are many proble ms facing society , economic problems and others , which could best and most effec tively be resolved in a co­ -operative way rather than a compet itive way .

These people from other countries of the British Commonwealth had recognized that, Mr . Chairman, which the Minister doesn 't - and I don't expect him to because it 's not his philosophy to recognize that type of a charac teristic of this pro­ gram , because that runs counter to the philosophy of the Conservative Party , as he has demonstrated by what he did with it , virtually thrown it into the waste paper bask et, as it were .

You know, he send s the program out to the schools and his colleague , the Minister of Education, is doing no further follow-up , and then the Minister of Co-operatives takes a look at the material remaining in his office and you know what he says, well, give me whatever the price of the paper is worth and you can have it . And that 's what he sold it for, for the price of the paper. -- (I nterjec tion)- - And as my col league , the Member for Elmwood says, likely in the process of offering it to the province of Saskatchew an, he added in the same breath, you don't want this, do you ••. MR .

BANMAN: To the Co-op College , not the province of Saskatchew an. MR . HANUSCHAK: To the Co-op College , very well. Ah, to the Co-op Col­ lege . I'm glad that the Minister corrected me on that , because I would also like to draw to the attention of the Minister and speak about the Co-op College . I would like to ask the Minister what financial assistan ce, if any , the Co-op Col­ lege receives from the province of Manitoba? Does it equal that of the province of Saskatchew an, exceed it , come close to it?

Because the province of Saskat­ chewan has in this year 's Estimates , $100 ,0 00 for Co-op College which, again , I'm not sure if the Minister is aware , but the Co-op College offers a co-op education program extendin g to all co-operators in Canada, and there are inany people from Manitoba who have been beneficiaries of the program or programs offered by it. It certainly deli vers a service reaching into our province . So it is indeed regrettable , Mr . Chairman, that on October 11 , 1977 , when this political party took office, that it adopted the att itude toward the Co-op Educa­ tion Program that it di d.

I have the impression , Mr. Chairman, that this Min­ ister, as perhaps his predecessor, just did not take the time or the trouble to enquire into how this program came to be , that they did not take the time to ap­ prise themselves of the fact that there was the involvement of many many schools and teachers in the school system , all of whom perhaps were not necessarily New Democrats, Mr . Chairman.

It wouldn 't surprise me if there were probably some who voted Conservativ e in the last electi on , maybe for the last time , but they may have voted Conservative , because there comes a time when those of us who care see the error of our way s. and we mend our ways. -- ( Interje ction )- - We ll , some of us don't err in that fashion. Some of us have voted NDP all along and will continue voting NDP. The Honourable Member for Minnedosa says some of his best supporters are co-op people . I wouldn 't doubt that . Some of my best friends are bankers , so I wouldn 't ••• But , Mr.

Chairman, it is regrettable that here was a program developed which had received worldwide recognition, and to have this Minister virtually dump it in the waste paper bask et , the product of far more than what may have been shown in the Estimates over the years while we were governm ent . There were thousands and thousands of hours and time and effort put forth by teache rs , of their own time , in the preparation of mate rials, in the review of mater ials, in the preparation of lesson plans , which they did on their own time , to effectively present the mater­ ial in the classroom.

And if one were to attach a price tag to that , a price tag to the effort that was put into the deve lopment of the program, not in the Depart­ ment of Educat ion, not in the Minister 's office, not in the Deputy Minister 's - 2139 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 office or in the Cabinet room, but out in the field , there are countless of hund­ reds of thousands of dollars worth of time and effort put forth , an immeasurable amount . All of that effort put forth by the hundreds of teachers out in the field , this government has chucked in the waste paper bask et , and that is regrettab le. MR • CHAIRMAN: Member for St . George . 1. (b) (1) --pas s; 1. (b) (2) --pa ss; 2. (a) (1) --pass . The MR . URUSKI : Thank you , Mr. Chairman. breakdown in the expenditures there? Could the Minister give us the MR .

BANMAN : 19 permanent SMYs , including the director, 10 devel opment officers , chief of finance and control, and three accounting clerks and four sec­ retaries. The $20 ,0 00 increase is due to the provisions in the GSI and the annual increment s. MR . URUSKI : Mr. Chairman , there is a slight drop in terms of the grant assist ance. Could the Minister indicate what • MR . CHAIRMAN: That 's one item down, to the mem ber. MR . URUSKI : Mr . Chairman, we may as well deal with the entire area, then we will just go through it . MR . CHAIRMAN: 2. (a) (l)- -pass. MR . URUSKI : No, Mr .

Cha irman, let 's deal with the item and then we 'll go through them all when we are finished our discussion on it. MR . BANMAN: That particula r ass istance was provided to the Co-op Housing Association of Manitoba in an agreement which was struck a number of years ago where we started off at $50 ,0 00 .0 0. It was agreed , after a succession of yea rs, that it would be dropping off at the rate of $10 ,0 00 per year, so this year we have provided $30 , OOO , next year $20 , OOO . 00 . The grant was des igned for the promotion of the co-op housing field .

They are now als o dealing with the Manitoba Co-op Promotional Board , which is providing them with some assis tance for special studies and things like that . MR . URUS KI: The assist ance in its totality is to the Co-op Housing • • • MR . BANMAN: One grant . MR . URUSKI : The one grant to that group . Mr . Chairman , in the de velopment and regulation of co-ops and cred it unions, have there been any credit unions that have been absorbed or got into financial di fficulty and were absorbed into other credit unions, or actually have had to close their doors in the last year? MR .

BANMAN: There were a number that were absorbed , some in northern Mani­ toba as well as a few in Metropolitan Winnipeg here. MR . URUS KI : case may be? These would be credit unions , or caisse populair es , as the MR . BANMAN: It is only in the credit union movement . The caisse popu­ laires have been pretty strong and we haven 't seen too many difficulties in the last little while in that particular section. MR . URUSKI : Mr .

Chairman, how involved does the department become in areas where credit unions have run into some difficulty, I'm presuming , in terms of extendin g cred it and not being able to handle their accounts receivable and keep the cash flow going? How involved does the department become? - 2140 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 MR . BANMAN : We ll, in 1974, when the legislation changed , the responsi­ bility to ensure that the stabilization efforts and that the accounting procedures were proper and that their managemen t was in place , was to a large extent , handed over to stab . fund . With the implementations of the regulations of the bill that was passed in 197 6, I believe , '76 or '77 we passed a bill in the Legislature which real ly , in many instances, made the bill conform with the new corporate legislation that was passed at that time .

It now gives the stab . fund even more authority with respect to the controlling of credit unions that are in difficulty , and as the member will app reciate , very often there 's a combination of problems - a problem with the board of directors , not good managem ent . To make one of these credit unions tick properly , you need sort of a, what I call a three-way joint approach to it and that 's a good membersh ip , a good board of directors and good managem ent . If one of those is weak , they seem to have problems .

But the credit union and stabilization fund is now dealing with those problems and we , per se , do not get involved unless they ask for our particul ar input on it . We do , to a certa in exte nt , monitor and help them out wherever we can , but the responsibility as far as providing the funds and see ing that the mergers and everyt hing work out properly is the stab. fund 's responsi bility . MR . URUSKI : Mr. Chairman, who keeps statistics with respect to mergers and closure s, if any , and what statistics are available?

There is no annual report required by legislation of the Department of Co-op Developme nt . The Loans and Guarantee Board and the Co-op Promotion Board are the two that are tabled annually in the Legislature . What type of statist ical data does the department keep on co-ops and credit unions, or is that primarily done through the Stabilization Board? MR . BANMAN: No, we do keep a record of the number of amalga mations and corporations, if you want to call that, between credit unions . We also receive articles of revival , notice of intent to dissolve and things like that.

Those figures can be dug out for the members and presented to them if they wish to have them. So the de partment does keep track of all that. MR . URUS KI: The information on disso lutionment and incorporation and starting up would be available in the de partment or could be presented as statis­ tical reference of some picture of change . Would they have actual information , not only numbe rs, but in a community breakdown , or is that not really done? MR . BANMAN: Not really .

I guess we could provide you with all that if you wanted it because we do have the file on that , but it 's provided just sort of in a block number. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose . MR . A.R. (P ete) ADAM : Mr. Chairman, on that particular point , the odd time that the credit union will be in financial problems of some form or another, is there no expertise or assis tance available from, say Co-op Central, that goes out on a regular basis to see how these credit unions are doing , because it seems that the problems that arise come up too late .

Isn 't there some way that it could be set up that these things could be stopped or reduced before they get to a point where the cred it union is unable to cope with it? Like , for instan ce, their stand at Portage la Prairie - probably the Member for Portage may have brought this up , I don 't know, I wasn 't here - but the Portage la Prairie Credit Union had some problems last year. They suffered quite extensive loss es. They 've had problems in trying to change over to computerized systems or something , and they ran into a great deal of trouble .

This is really what I am referring to , whether there isn't some way that these things could be - it seems to me that what 's happened in Portage la Prairie is an ongoing thing for the whole year. It seems to me that this is the type of situation we would be monitoring more closely , and if central has the expertise to do it , why are they not doing it ; if they 're not responsible for doing it , why shouldn 't the department be doing it? Should there be more Planning and Research in this area , because I see there doesn 't appear to be any funds allocated for plannin g or research or anything . We - 2141 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 know that the entire department has been wound down consider ably . going out of existen ce, I don 't know, but when I look at the figures the total figures for this year, which in real dollar terms is about real 1977 dollar terms - wel l, I'l l let the Minister answer , and maybe a few more questi ons on some other are as. Maybe it 1 s for '77 and $661 , 000 in I could ask MR .

BANMAN : One of the problems which the credit unions have had , and I gue ss contributes to the problems of the Dauphin Credit Union , as well as some of the others , and that is the problem of the large commerc ial loans . The credit unions do very well in handling them , the sma ll car loans , the personal mortgages on your hom es, and deali ng with individuals , and have people loans ' officers to deal with that .

When you 're starting to talk about half a million dollars or a mill ion-dollar loan, and if you'l l read the history of the Dauphin Credit Union, that it 's really one thing that got them into their real jackp ot , that they lack expertise in deal ing with these large corporation loans , because they have to be monitored very closely and there has to be a certain amount of expertise with regard to this.

What has happened now is , with the expanded powers that have been given to this stabiliz ation fund under the new regulations which were passed in November of last year , they have set certain limits on the size of loans that can be passed by each individual credit union, depending on their stability and their managerial capab ilities , so that there will be a check by the stabiliz ation fund before a certain cred it union , let 's say , who has not a good reserve ratio, issues a $250 ,0 00 loan to some commercial enterprise . That is one check in which they hope to avoid the type of problem the Member for Ste .

Rose is talking about . But you have to realize that managers , boards of directors are making loans . If the loan is made, the moneys have been dispers ed . The member will appreciate even if you have a first mortgage , there hasn 't been a proper appraisal done on that . That 's after the fact, and there is no way that the Stab Fund , or the government , or anybo dy , can come back on a thing like that. There has to be good manageme nt ; there has to be a good board of directors and , as I mentioned before , a good group of citiz ens that are concerned about what 's happenin g to their credit union.

But there is a mechanism which has just been put in place which hopefully will avoid the proble ms of these large loans going out without having the proper scrut iny . And , as I mentioned , that seems ·to be the area where most of the credit unions got into trouble . They can handle the small personal loans , some of the farm loans and that , but it 's when you 're coming into the big loan areas that they lack the expertise and have got into prob lems . Hopefully , this system which has now been introduced by the Stab Fund will help to serve as some check and balance on the whole system . MR .

ADAM: Then I understand that each credit union , depending on its asset s, will be allowed to make loans up to a certain point . I'm talking about my own experience in deal ing with di fferent banks and , you know, they 'll say , "We ll, the manager is al lowed to go up to $10 ,0 00 before he • • • otherwise , if you ask for a larger loan than that , he has to get in touch with head office ." MR . BANMAN: If I could ju st add , that 's precisely what we ' re talking about . It will be basea on the management strength, the board streng th, the assets of that particular credit union.

The checks and balance that the member is talking about with tradit ional banking institutions , I think if you 're coming into a loan dealin g with several hundred thousand , very often Winnipeg won't even handle this, you get it cleared at Montreal or something . And what is happening here is that a board of directors with the manager could okay a half a million dollar loan with nobody having a second look at it.

Hopefully , this system won't slow the process down that much, but will provide that little bit of expertise that maybe in some of these high commercial loans is required to make sure that depositors in that area and that cred it union are not brought down to their hands and knees by one particular loan . That 's what they ' re hoping to achieve by set ting certain guidelines down , depending on the management of the credit union, the asse ts, the amount on deposit and what they have in the reserve s. - 2142 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 MR . ADAM: Mr. Chairman , I know that , say , if large borrowers come into a bank , they would spread the risk out between different banks maybe to handle a particular loan, and I'm just wondering , why wouldn 't the credit union do that? Why wouldn 't they widen the risk? Say that there may be more than one credit union involved . It seems to me that more people would be involved in that kind of a loan. There would be more safeguards if there were more branches involved , share the risk but on a wider base . MR .

BANMAN: If the member will reca ll, I think it was about two years ago the announcement was made - as a matter of fact , I think I have the dis tinction of having the first loan through the Niverville Credit Union in Ste inbach in Manitoba through the new Northlands Bank , which is owned by the co-op movement in Canada , and that bank is to provide precisely what the member is talking about , the higher risk commercial loans , which the cred it union locally feels they are not big enough to handle .

It might be an enterprise that 's a fairly large ent erprise , and you have a credit union maybe which has $10 million asse ts, does not have the funds at the present time to deal with it , will then refer that to the Northlands Bank. And what happens at that time , is that the expertise from the Northlands Bank , including the people who are involved in commercial !endings on a day-to-day basi s, as well as the funds that are dedicated to that bank , are shared by all the credit unions right across Canada .

So there is a vehicle which has been put in place and is starting to operate to try and help smaller communities which might have a big enterprise in it that the local credit union cannot help . So , there is a mechanism coming in place and I understand it 's starting to work fairly well. MR . ADAM: Mr . Chairman , I wonder , in regard to Credit Union Centr al , how solvent is the Central? And what about the reserve , where is the reserve placed? With Credit Union Central? MR . BANMAN: It 's on deposit with the stabil ization fund - I mean with the Central, I'm sorry. MR . ADAM: How solvent is Central?

What is the expertise at Central? MR . BANMAN: The expertise at Central are pretty good . They 've just strengthened them. As a matter of fact , they hired the Assistant Deputy Minister of Finance from the province of Manitoba , Mel Anderson , several months ago .

They • ve also brought in one or two people from Saskatch ewan and are right now building a pretty good group of solid people who have financial background and who know what the system is all about , and are at tempting , in co-operation with the stab fund to build up and have the reserves built up and proper management put in place with regard to the whole system. MR . ADAM: Yes, well, Canadian Indemnity are they? I don • t think the credit unions are Like as far as deposits are concerned? covered by MR . BANMAN: I think the member is referring to the Canadian Deposit Insuranc e. No they are not a member. MR .

ADAM: So that means that the security of deposits with the credit union, any loss of •••• MR . BANMAN: If I can just interject here . Apparently the stabilization , and this is the delineation of authority out there , the Stabilization Fund is not, I understand that the Central is. So the Central which has the funds on deposit is a member of the Canadian Deposit Insurance group. MR . ADAM: What about , I want to find out , as a depositor, I'd like to find out how strong Central is with their reserves? How can I get that information? MR . BANMAN: Mr.

Chairman, it is public information, the member could get an annual report from the CCSM . They put out a n annual report . - 2143 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 MR . ADAM: Is it in the annual report here . MR . BANMAN: No they put out there own annual report , the Co-op Central is the association of all the credit unions in Manitoba and they put out their annual report and you could see exac tly how much was on deposit and what the assets of all the credit unions were ; it's all in their annual report . MR . ADAM: All their reserves? How long have they been doing that? Or have they always done that? MR . BANMAN: Well it 's an incorporated body , they have to provide it to the ir members hip , so as far as I know, they always have. MR .

ADAM: Because , you know, it seems to me that I've tried to get this information from individual credit unions ; I've never been able to get that infor­ mation. They come in and say ; it doesn 't matter how much money you 've put here , you can deposit as much as you want and it 's safe , you don 't have to be restricted to $20 , OOO in a chartered bank . You know, they tell you , and I say ; well okay show me , and they say ; we ll we can't do that . So I am just wondering why I can 't go into a credit union and say ; how safe are you?

I only deal with credit unions , I've cut out the banks because they make too many political contributions . I don't have a dollar in a bank anywhere because they make too many po litical con­ tributions . So I want you to tell me that my money is safe . You are the Minister responsible for my money . You got rid of your best Deputy Minister of Finance, so you said . MR . BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, given my few doll ars in the credit union out in Steinbach I know that the guarantee that the member speaks of is up to $20 ,0 00 , I would have to make some further enquiries , but as far as • • • MR . ADAM: In the bank?

MR . BANMAN: No, in the credit union also. MR . ADAM: Oh no , oh no-. I am dealing with at least four credit unions. Okay . They all tell me the same story , that it is unl imited . You 're deposits and your savings and your chequing accounts with a credit union is unlim ited , and that is where you should place your money . But I would like to go into a credit union and be able to obtain that information right there , and I don't seem to be able to do that . I would ask the Minister "Why not?" and I think that I have a valid point ; that 's an absolute valid point .

You know , the manager says ; "O h, you don't have to worry" but then you see the credit union in Portage la Prairie had a very very difficult year last year , I'm not saying they are going bankrupt or anything , but they 've had some very di fficult problems to overcome there , and I don't know whether they have overcome them , or whether they will be able to overcome them this year or not. MR . BANMAN: We ll, Mr . Chairman , I guess all I can say right now is that if member requires some pertinent inf ormation with regard to how CCSM is operating , it 's ju st down the street here .

They 've got a new build ing there MR . ADAM: I have no connection with them. I don 't deal with them. MR . BANMAN: Mr . Chairman, I suggest you call Mr. Hanson , who is the Chief Executiv e Officer over there , and I am sure he would he just too happy to give you all the information that you require . I should point out that the Stab Fund ensures the deposits in the credit union and in the 75-year history of the credit union movement in the province of Mani toba , no depositor has ever lost any money . MR .

ADAM: Yes, well the Minister, ju st a few minutes ago said that the maximum in the credit union was $20 ,0 00 .0 0. That seems to conflict with the information that I have received from a number of credit unions . Every one of them , in fact , told me the same thing . - 2144 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 MR . BANMAN: The Central , as a member of CDIC, has the insurance of the $20 ,0 00 depos it , but the stab. fund guarantees the dep osits MR . ADAM: Up and above that? MR . BANMAN: • all the deposits in all credit unions . I just don't want the member for Ste. Rose to hold me responsible if we get a 1929 crash, but as I mentioned , even during the tough times during the Depressi on, in the last 75 years, no depositor in the credit union system in Manitoba has lost any money . So I think it is a pretty good record and I think they are doing a pretty good job. MR .

ADAM: The Minister brought up quite a point , he 's expect ing a 1929 crash . MR . BANMAN : MR . ADAM: likely to get it . tell us No, I didn't say that. Because of the policies in Manitoba , you know, we are just No, I will move over to something else . Could the Minister MR . CHAIRMAN: Order. One speaker at a time . MR . ADAM: housings have department? Could the Minister give us any inform ation on how many co-op been undertaken this year and have had assi stance from the MR .

BANMAN: We provide assi stance in personnel , and as far as the grant is concerned , through this and through the Co-op Promotion Board , to CHAM, which is the sort of sister organization through which everybody works and one of the pro­ blems that has happened is because of the higher vacancy rates in the province faced in the apartment business is the fact that a number of these are really struggling right now to stay alive , and we have undertaken to give them some money through the Co-op Prom otion Board to do a study with regard to some of the aspects and some of the difficulties that they face.

Right now they are looking at winding down their operations in the near future and trying to concentrate on making the ones that they have right now viab le , and that includes the one in Brandon, which is having a high vacancy rate, as well as several in Winnipeg here . They are struggling with trying to make them go.

They are also deal ing with CCSM who provided some interim financing for them and they are als o dealin g with CMHC , who will have to make out the final payments and who have provided a major portion of funding and loans for these particular groups , but there are a number that are struggling right now and are trying to rectify the problems. MR . ADAM: Does the Minister have any figures, Mr . Chairman , on how many projects were started this year or did he answer? I don't know if I caught that . Have there been any new projects this year? MR .

BANMAN: There are about 19 co-operatives dealing with housing in the province of Manitoba and right now we are in the process of trying to assist them in surviving . I think , under the present conditions , when we have vacanc ies in the province of Manitoba everywhere , I think to start up new ones wouldn 't be the direction we want to go. I think it is up to the department to try and help out and strengthen some of the existi ng ones rather than marching headlong into some other problems .

Out of the 19 some are in various stages of complet ion, I think they are just about all done right now, but now we are going to have to see if they can remain viable and remain in the marke tplace. MR . ADAM : So then I take it that there have been no new project s in 1979, that what we are doing now is completing previous programs undertaken in previous yea rs. Is that correct? - 2145 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 MR . BANMAN: That 's right . There 's a number of vacant homes which 'we are trying to sell as well as apartments being rented . MR . ADAM: I see . People that had to move out to Alberta or Saskatch ewan to find jobs? Isn 't that true? Okay , I'll let it go for a while . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR . WILLIAM JENKINS : Thank you , Mr . Chairman . Some of the questions that I was going to ask have been asked by the Honourable Member for Ste . Rose . The Minister stated that the Stab Fund of the Central is now in the position to monitor.

Was the financial di fficulty that the Portage la Prairie Credit Union , that got itself into financial difficulty , were they in this financial difficulty before the Legislation was changed last year , which I believe the Minister stated that the Central • MR . BANMAN: Yes . MR .

JENKINS: .now does a monitoring to see that there is no over-extension of a financial transac tion by a local , and I would like to know if the credit union in Portage la Prairie which evidently , I think the Minister said , got into financial difficulties to the tune of about $3 million , if that was prior to the Legislation or has it happened since the Legislation was changed?

And if it has, has the Minister then, and his departm ent , reviewed the legislation to see if there are some weaknesses in it that doesn 't allow the proper monitoring of financial transac tions to make sure that credit unions do not overextend credit of the magnitude that the Minister was talkin g about before . I would al so, while we are here , I would like to ask the Minister just under what sec tion we could dis cuss his reports - the two reports which he files with the Legislature - he could nod his head , under the Minister 's Salary , I imagine would be the proper place?

And I just throw out to the Minister for a sugge stion and it doesn 't have to be very elaborate , but it does help for members in opposition, since you people have all the information and we have to ferret it out , that perhaps a very simple report of the department next year, I throw that out for the Minister and the members of the Treasury Bench.

I am not going to hold you to a date but I hope you would have the report prior to the discussion of your esti mates, because the single lines that we see here in the est imates are , you know, I mean it describes briefly what the department is doing , but really we come into this est imate procedure in this de partment cold , all we can do is look at last year 's estimates , the debates and proceedings which took place in the Committee , but we really have nothing of what the ac tivities of the de partment were for the year 1979 to 1980. The Minister has that information .

That 's one of the unfortunate things that we have under the Parliamentary system and the Cabinet procedure . Even members of the backbench of government don 't have that informa­ tion unless they get that information through a Minister , and having served at a local level of government , information is free to all members and that 's perhaps one of the weaknesses of the Parl iamentary system that we have to go through a debates procedure looking at Estimates here . When there is no report , we really don 't have anything to measure the department 's activity from one year to another.

I me an, all we have is, well here we have a half a page , unless we go through a tedious procedure here to find out exactly what the de partment is doing , and I throw that out , not in severe criticism of the Minister because I don't believe it was done when we were government . But I think that there should be something for us to have a look at , to compare what did your department do in the last fiscal year as compared to the other year . You know, what were the activities?

We really don 't know what the ac tivities of the department were because we just get what information that • • • You know, if we don't ask the right question s, we don 't even get the answers because we don 't even know what 's happenin g . I would suggest that the Minister think seriously on that and it doesn 't have to be anything elaborate , it can be something of this type here and the reports would come out from the two boards that are required by legislation to report . I'm not saying that you should be required to report but I just would say that it - 2146 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 would make the job of all membe rs , and I speak for members in the backbench on the other side because they are in the same predicam ent . The Member for River Heights wanted • I know he 's an executiv e ass istant , not to you I believe , but to another Minister.

He maybe has a little better channel but there are other members in the Conservative caucus that perhaps would like to ask some quest ions, and I think the whole budget procedure is • • • I think all members , regardless of which side of the House they may be sitting upon , we have no report and we have really nothing here to discuss except these few lines that we have in here . With that, I'l l let the Minister make his reply . MR . BANMAN: There is no legislative requirement , but we did last year , Mr. Chairman , put out a small report . I guess the staff and myself are on the same wavelength as the member is.

They wanted to expand somewhat on that and hopefully within the next couple of weeks we will have a report . Unfortunately , it 's not on time for this particular Session . Next year we 'll endeavour to try and get that tabled towards the beginning of the Session so that if Co-op Development happens to come in one of the first or second estimates , then we can have that for you . So we did put out something small last year ; we hope to expand on it a little bit and we 'll be tablin g that in the Legislature very shortly .

The other question that the member has is that the regulations under which the Stab Fund now has additional authority to move on items which they think are of concern to them and safeg uard the credit union system in the province were passed in November, so that it be after the events that the member is referring to. MR . JENKINS : Then the Minister is saying that the statute that we passed last year and the regulat ions coming into force came into force in Novembe r. MR . BANMAN: In november ; after the fact. MR .

JENKI NS : After the fact , so hopefully , what we have seen happen at Portage la Prairie will not occur in the future , and of course , as the Minister said , wel l, there are things that • Even banks sometimes get themselves over-extended . I'm not in the position of my friend from Ste . Rose ; I belong to the Credit Union, but I don 't belong to four of them. But I think the questions that he asked were ones that were valid and • • • -- ( Interje ction)-- The Member says he 's spread out pretty thin. We ll, I don't know ; I don 't want to pry into his financial affairs and it 's none of my business anyway .

But I thank the Minister that he and I are on the same wavelength as far as this report and it 's just unfortunate that we didn 't have that report . I know the Minister is not required to provide it, by legislat ion, but it does make the Estimates procedure much easier for us to discuss the Minister 's department and , after all , we have an interest in seeing ju st what is happening in the department and if we don't have any type of report , then we really have nothing to ju dge just what we can , as I said before , ferret out of questioning .

With that , I'l l raise my other questions I have under the Minister 's Salary . MR . CHAIRMAN: 2. (a) (l)- -pass - the Member for St . George MR . URUSKI : Thank you , Mr. Chairman. Is this the appropriate place that I could speak about the Loans and Guarantee Board , the next one down? MR . BANMAN: I think in discussion with the Member for Logan, we were going to leave both the Co-op Loans and Guarantee Board and the Promotion Board to the Minister 's Salary , if that 's okay with the committee . MR . URUSKI : Oh. MR .

CHAIRMAN: 2. (a) (l)- -pass ; 2. (b ) (l)- -pass; 2. (b) (2 )- -pass. 2. (a) (2)- -pass ; 2. (a) (3)- -pass ; MR . URUS KI : Mr. Chairman , could the Minister give us the breakdown on the salaries and staff man years , whether there has been a change from last year . - 2147 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 MR . BANMAN: Eight permanent SMYs again : the director, three audito rs , one inspector , two registration officers , and one secretary for staff support . The staff man years are identical to last year and , agai n, the increase is GS! and annual increments . The other expenditures are stationery and telep hones. One of the reasons for the sl ight drop in that is that last year we had to print all the new Credit Unions and Caisse Populaires Acts and that we don't have to do this year because we have a sufficient supply in stock for the coming yea rs. MR . URUSKI : Mr. Chairman , the services provided in both (

a) and (

b) by the sta ff, how do they differ and what are their respective roles? If the Minister would like to • • • MR . BANMAN: The staff under (

a) is basically develop ment officers , people that are out in the field dealin g with the fish co-ops ; (

b) is the regulatory function. In other words , we were talking about the stat istics . We are the registrar for the Province of Manitoba , so that the dis solution of credit unions and estab lishment of credit unions , have to be filed with the Province of Manitoba, that we keep proper control of it .

This particular department is one which does the filing of regulations and looks after the distribution of the regulat ions , as well as the enforcement to make sure to have a good liaison with the CCSM, to make sure that everything is running properly with regard to the regulations and the stat utes , with regard to annual reports and all the other things. MR . CHAIRMAN: 2. (b) (2)- -pass ; 2. --pass . Resolved that there be granted to Her Maje sty a sum not exceeding $694, 200 for Co-operative and Credit Union Development and Regula tion, $69 4, 200--p ass. Resolution 42, 3.

Acquisition and Construction of Physical Assets --pass - the Honourable Member for Logan. MR . JENKI NS: Mr. Chairman , I wonder if the Minister could give us an idea of what this appropriation is for. Last year there was no money for Acquisition and Construction of Physical Asse ts ; what are we buildi ng or acquiring for $56, 300 this year? MR . BANMAN: I believe , Mr. Chairman , last year it was covered under existing old capital authority .

With regard to this particular item, there is some money included for the Seymourville Consumers Co-op in the area of loans and it als o provides a provision for another $50 ,0 00 of, I believe , a loan guara ntee, and it gives us certain capital authority for funding for this coming year . So it 's not like we 're building something but it 's providing loans to a few co-operative assoc iations. MR . JENKI NS: Then I' 11 raise the same question that I raised with the Minister of Labour when we were dealing with his Estimat es, because he had the same thing . I think this is a misnomer.

You know, unless we inquire , we see here Acquisition and Construction of Physical Asset s. Well , Physical Assets is some­ thing that you can take a hold of and feel and see ; we 're talking about loans .

I suggest to the Minister that next year when you 're preparing your Estimates, and I suggest this to all Ministers if this is what you 're doing in all departm ents, if this is grants and loans, well, then I think that 's what it should be listed as in the Estimates, not as Acquisition and Construc tion of Physical Assets , because it 's misleadin g and it 's misleading to Members of the Assembly and it 's certainly misleading to the press and members of the public at large when they pick up a copy of the Estimates of Manitoba and they see , lo and behold , we have • We ll, here is one right here , but I guess we • • • We ll, here we have Acquisition and Construction of Physical Assets in Cultural Affairs , and perhaps when we get there we 'll find out that it 's maybe grants for something else .

But it 1 s something that I think the Treasury Bench should be looking at because I think it is a bit misleading to the Members of the Assembly that you have a line in here , Acquisition and Construction of Physical Asse ts, and then we find out it 's either loans or grants. - 2148 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 MR . BANMAN : I agree with the mem ber. MR . CHAIRMAN : 4. (2) (3)- -pass - the Member for St . George . MR . URUS KI: The Minister indicated that $6 , 000 was for the Seymourville Consumers Co- op . That 's under a guarant ee , I presume . MR . BANMAN: Which is an exist ing loan. MR . URUSKI : Pardon me? MR . BANMAN: Which is an exis ting loan . MR . URUSKI : Ye s, you 're guaran teeing . MR . BANMAN: It 's not a guarantee , it 's a loan . MR . URU SKI : The Department of Co-op Development has made a direct loan to the Seymourville Co-op? MR .

BANMAN : Through the Loans and Loans Guarantee Board . MR . URUSKI : Could the Minister explain that for my benefit of understand­ ing , Mr. Chairman, the background of that and how does that come about in terms of a direct loan? MR . BANMAN : Mr. Chairman, I understand that this is a loan . This author­ ity will provide us moneys for loans . There will be $1 million under the Capital Supply Bill , I think, which will be coming forward , which will give us authority under the guarantee sect ion, so this deals strictly with the loans , the other ones aeal with the guarantees . We have a number of others .

I think if you will refer to the Co-operative Loans and Loans and Guarantee Board Annual Report , you will see that the loan is to Seymourville Consumer Co-operative ; the others are guar­ ante es, so the outstanding guarantees at the end of March 31 , 1979, were $618 ,0 00 .00. We are asking for slightly more ; we will be coming to the House to ask for slightly more so that the Co-op Loans and Guarantee Board have some money to provide additi onal loans.

But right now, we are asking for $56, 300 , which basically covers $6 ,3 00, roughly , for the Seymourvill e loan and $50 ,0 00 which will be allocated possib ly to some other fishing co-ops that need loans . In other words, we don 't have the same thing that we have in, for instance, the Manitoba Develo pment Corporation, which has been voted authority , I think , some­ thing like $60 million, which it never used . We don't have that provision in this. In other words, we don't have voted authority that we have never used .

The way I understand it is that some of it had lapsed and , as a resul t, we have to provide for it in our yearly Estimates. MR. URUS KI : So in the event that there are no loans issued , therefore the $50, 000 would lapse and the outstanding • MR . BANMAN: That would come back next year again. MR . URUSKI : Now, in what cases would the department itself - like , the Seymourville Co-op, and maybe the Minister wants to comment on that one - get involved directly as the lenders? MR . BANMAN: Under the provision of the Act, but I don't think that 's what the member wants .

Let 's use the examp le of some co-op get ting into some diffi­ culty because of some accounts receivable that have gotten away on them because the manager hasn 't been exerc ising tight enough control. This could be used to help them over the interim while one of our develop ment officers moves in to try and help him straighten out the problems . We even have a number of consumer co-operatives in northern Manitoba , aside from the fishing co-ops, which we deal with on almost a weekly basis to provide managerial expertise and auditing - 2149 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 expertise . So if one of them would find themselves in a problem , rather than closin g them up and then trying to start over aga in, this would provide them with a loan to maybe help them get back on their feet. So it 's not big money but it , in very many instances , could possibly , like in the Seymourville case , probably help them out of a tight spot and keep the co-op going . MR . URUSKI : Ye s, Mr . Chairman, and the 50 , 000 is what one would consider a reserve in terms of MR . BANMAN: An uncommitted loan authority , if you want to call it that. MR . URUSKI : Uncommitted loan.

The Minister or the department doesn 't feel that any further amount is nece ssary or there will be addit ional capital voted in the Supply Bill of $1 million where their guara ntees are outstanding of some $618 ,o oo.o o. So you have an additi onal , roughly , $350 , 000-$ 400 , 000 of available capital there , where you 're looking at roughly $500 ,0 00 of reserve capital in the event , either for guarant ee. Is there flexibilit y in that capital to either use it for loans or guarante es, or is there a stipulation on that voted authority? MR . BANMAN: No.

The way I understand it, we are asking here fo•r $56,000 on loans and we are going to be asking for $1 million on guaran tees . That is legislative authority and I stand to be correcte d , but I don't think you can juggle between the two because this is what we vote , as a Legislature . Of course the member will appreciate if some emergency should arise in September, or some­ thing , we could always go to the special warranty .

But the department , based on how the fishing co-ops are doing , how the co-op system generally is doing , figure that this is leavin g us enough room to deal with any other problems that could arise . MR . URUS KI : We ll, Mr. Chairman, we 're on this issue -- (I nterjecti on)- ­ Mr . Chairman, they 're tied so closely together to the Loans and Guarantee Board in this area as well. Have there been many applications in ••• ?

Since the report covers - wel l, it 's a year old now, the report is a year old - have there been many applications under the Loans and Guarantee Board in the last 12 months that are not shown here? Have there ·been additions? MR . BANMAN: No, Mr. Chairman , not in the last while. MR . URUSKI : So that I'm given to understan d that the only guarantees that are being carried on by the department are those as shown in the report for the year ended March 31, 1979 , or have there been some additions? MR . BANMAN: With the exc eption, I should note one exce ption.

We provide a guarantee for the Northern Co-op Service s, which ••• MR . URUSKI : It 's shown here . MR . BANMAN: Yes. Which was extended again for the new year. It 's on an annual ba sis. What they do is they go out and buy fishing net s, motors , and as they sell that they pay off the loan, so that has to be renewed every year and that will be renewed again this year . MR . URUS KI : Yes , okay ; I think I understand it. But in terms of new co-operatives the amounts basically are not changing of what you 've got in terms of guarante es.

You 've had guarantees two years ago of 953 ; you ' re down to slig htly over 600 ,0 00 . The numbers of co-ops, if I understand the Minister correctl y , have not changed . The dollar amounts of each guarantee may vary somewhat. MR . BANMAN: Yes. The Wes tMan Media Co-Op, I don't know if they ever drew down , I'd have to do some checking , but I don 't think they ever drew down on that guarant ee. It was put in place but they never used it . So it says a can cell a­ tion, they never really used it. - 2150 -

Tuesday , 8 April 1980 MR . URUS KI: Yes , that 's understood , that it 's not neces sary that the cred it union call in any of the money or have to use it but the guarantee is there in the event that it 's desired ; I understand that. That it 's not necessary the government actu ally has to pay out money to a lender that a credit union or the co-op goes to . But the amount , as I understand the Minister indicat es, has not changed or remains at roughly the $600 ,0 00 mark. MR . BANMAN: That 's right . MR . URUSKI : Okay .

Then can I ask the Minister if the guarantees have stayed or actually been reduced , of what necessity is the government required to ask for, say , a doubling of the guarantee that is theirs? MR . BANMAN: Mr . Chairman, as the member will realize , a number of years ago some of the northern fishing co-ops got into some serious trouble . Our devel­ opment officers are meetin g with several different co-ops. Some people are looking at possibly reviving one or two of them .

I guess all I can say is that we feel this will give us enough elbow room to move , if we have to move, on some of them and I think it would be - what should I say? - not right for me not to indicate that we are hopeful that maybe we will have some new ones coming on stream or reactivated and therefore are asking for money . I guess we could have left it as special warrant but I think , in all respect to the Legislatu re , I think that it 's the correct procedure to follow. The members will appreciate that there could be one or two that are reactivated and hopefully we can accomplish that . MR . URUS KI: Yes, Mr.

Chairman. There was certainly no criticism meant on my

part in terms of whether you should vote or not . Certainly if there is the likelihood of some co-ops being reactiv ated , or some new ones starting up where guarant ees would be necessary , that provision be made for that . Are there any applicat ions now be fore the board that are still pending? MR . BANMAN: I don't believe so . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for St . Vital . MR . D. JAMES WAL DING: Mr. Chairman, in answer to a question by my col­ league from Logan. I believe I heard the Minister say that the reason there was no amount under this appropriation last year was that there was some carry-over from the previous year. Gan he confirm that, please? MR. BANMAN: I'd have to get back to