Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 32 (31st Legislature, 5th Session)

31-5-32

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL V OF MANITOBA Friday, 6 March 1981 Time - 10:00 a.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle Russell): If you will notice there was an error on the Order Paper on the time of sitting; it's 10:00 a.m. Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Memb er for Radisson. MR. ABE KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report same and asks leave to sit again.

I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Dauphin, that report of committee be received. MOTION presented and carr ied. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Labour. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement which I'd like to make and I have copies for yourself and for the members opposite. Mr. Speaker, Sunday is ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Can you just wait till we get copies? The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Sp eaker, Sunda y is International Women's Day.

The growth of March 8 as a day of special significance grew out of the struggles of the New York garment workers and out of the campaign by women of all political stripes for the right to vote. In recent years Canadian women have recogn ized International Women's Day by keying on various issues and problems whether they be social, economic, political, or legal. In Manitoba, women's gr oups and organizations have co ordina ted their efforts for a week-long focus on women. For example, tomorrow there will be displays in Eaton Place and Sunday afternoon a celebration has been scheduled at the Grant Motor Inn.

On Sun day as well, Vid eon Cable television will be televising 13 -1 /2 hours of special programming beginning at 9:00 a.m. Staff in the Womens Bureau and the Pension Commission of my department are participating in two of the shows. The Womens Bureau is holding an Open House later today in its offices at 24 1 Vaughan Street and on behalf of the women. I would like to invite all members to the Open House, which runs from 11: 30 to 2:30. I would be negligent, Mr. Chairman, if I did not mention the Advi sory Council on the Status of Women, which our government established last fall.

Members of this House will recall that a variety of womens' groups and organ izat ions had recommended the council be formed as far back as 19 72. I'm proud to be a member of the Progressive Conservative Government which responded to that legitimate request of many Manitoba women. I would also like to mention that Manitoba was one of the five pr ovinc es which contri buted to the Canadian Plan of Action which was submitted to the United Nations Mid-Decade Conference on Women last year in Denmark. Nobody can dispute that the role of women in society is changing.

Those changes in the labour force, in our educational institutes and within the family have been well do cumented. Women today are less willing to accept traditional roles and some may say, why should they?. Rather, women are trying to improve and to equalize their position in society. Mr . Speaker, our government is sensitive to the needs of women. Our concern for, and our understanding of, the special problems facing women is well kn own. Mor eover, we appr eciate the contributions of all women, those who chose careers as homemakers and those who chose careers in the workplace.

I would ask all members to join me in recogn iZing International Women's Day in congratulating women for their achievements and thanking them for their contributions. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr .

Speaker, I'd like to first as sure the Mini ster of Labour tha t all Members of this House, I am certain, join in with tho se cong ratu lations for women for the contributions they have made in the past and for the many contributions that they will make in the future, because if anything, I believe it can be safely said that the future is more promising for the women of Canada and the women of the world than is the past.

We are especially pleased to be able to join in with those many women in the Province of Manitoba who will be celebra ting the events surr oundin g International Women's Day, for it provides a focus to examine the contributions that women as a group have made for society. Those contributions are great and extensive. lt also provides a way in which to assist and work together to help new contributions to be made by women in society, but it is also an opportunity to discuss the problems that women face in society and as well it is an opportunity to examine the solutions.

For that reason, we join in with the Mi nister and his government and Provincial Go vernments thr ougho ut this countr y and the National Government in offering our supp ort for women in this very important celebration and our participation with them in this very important day. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion ... Introduction of Bills. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: At this time I would like to draw the honourable members' attention to the gallery on my 1409

Friday, 6 March 1981 right where we have 18 students of Gr ade 11 standing from the Daniel Mclntyre School, under the dir ection of Mr. Rohs. This school is in the cons tituency of the Ho nourable Member for Wellington. We also have 20 students of Grade 9 standing .. Nf"'from the Ken Seaford Ju nior High, under the direction of Ms. Roberta Carins. This school is in the constitdency of the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. On behalf of all honourable members, we welcome you here this morning. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposiliqn. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr.

Sp eaker, probably I can commence the question period on the same kind of friendly note as we just heard in respect to the statement that was given by the Minister of Labour by commending the Minister of Natur al Resou rces on his annou ncement this morning that he was giving consideration to an all party delegation and participating in an all-party delegation, federal and pro vin cial, to make representations to Wash ington pertaining to the Garrison project.

I would ask the Minister, in view of his ind ication this morning, whether or not he has urged Ottawa to in fact, in establishing any such committee to form it on the same basis insofar as rep rese ntation by members of Parliament and members of the Legislature. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr.

Speaker, the suggestion of a possible visit to Washington stems from the events in the House of Commons yesterday where unanimity was achieved which in itself is something encouraging in the affairs of this country these days, on a resolution put forward by Manitoba MPs, namely the Member for Lisgar, the Member for Marquette, calling on the Prime Minister to place the issue of Garrison very high on the list of priorities with the discussions next week with the American President. lt was the Prime Minister that indicated in response to that resolution that should there be a feeling that a visit to Washington of the type and nature described by the Leader of the Opposition would be helpful that the Federal Government in co-operat ion with the Provincial Government would be prepared to undertake such a visit.

Mr. Speaker, it would be the intention of course if such a visit were to take place to clearly indicate to our Ame�ican friends that on this issue it is an non partisan issue, all parties within the province and in the countr y are concerned about the possible offending waters tha t could be tr ansferred to Manitoba if the project proceeds. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Sp eaker, in addition to the Member for Marq uette and the Member for Lisgar and, of course, the Member for Selkirk lnterlake in the Federal House of Commons have joined in that all party spirit in urging such an all party delegation to Washington.

Further to the Min ister, has the Mini ster made any repres entations as to the provincial representation that might be expected or should be expected from the Province of Manitoba? MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I believe that question is perhaps somewhat premature at this time.

I would want to underline th,e hope and the very sincere hope is, of course, that our Prime Minister, who can on occasions be persuasive, can indeed have those kind of discussions with the President that would allay the fears of Manitobans on this question and that in that event may not necessitate the type of delegation that we are referring to, but should the occasion arise I'm sure that the honourable members opposite will be kept fully informed. MR. PAWLEV: Mr.

Speaker, it's widely expected that there may indeed be some further effort to increase the appropriation this forthcoming April in the Un ited St ates in the Cong ress by the Congressional supporters of Garrison to increase the appropriation. In addition to the measures that were mentioned yesterday in Ottawa and also by the Minister, does the Minister contemplate any other form of action in order to bring about a halt to any sudden increase in Garrison fundings as took place last year? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, the government and myself am certainly open to suggestions of precisely what further kind of action we ought to be taking. I think that it must be said, having satisfied ourselves that it is on the agenda in a priority way at the very highest level, that is in the discussion next week with our Prime Minister ar.d the President of the United States, that the action that is open to countries in dealing with each other in a civilized way are being pursued and being followed.

I'm well aware that the pressures for additional funding may accelerate in miq A pril and I think it is that date or at that time that Canadian Foreign Affairs Department, External Affairs Department and ourselves would be considering a possible visit to Wash ington to be able to speak dir ectly to the Appropr iations Comm ittee, the Forei gn Affai rs Committee of the U.S.

Congress in order to lend the strongest possible voice that we can in personal cont act with the Ame rican Senators and Congressmen involved in underlining to them the very seriousness of this matter, and that surely an incoming administration in our country to the south of us would want to take that into very grave concern as to its future relations with this country. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for lnkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN (lnkster): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister to whom the Manitoba Telephone System reports and I'm not sure whether the Minister of Transportation ...

Can the Minister of Transportation advise as to whether or not there have been any developments or any new changes in the status of the MTS . . . loan with respect to a futu ristic electroni cs project at Headingley? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nister of Transportation. 1410

Friday, 6 March 1981 HON. DONALD ORCHARD (Pembina): I'm not aware of any change, Mr. Speaker. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, if the Minister says he is not aware of any change, can he tell us that the last he is aware of is that the project is proceed with some hope of success or that the project is in danger of failing? What change from what? MR. ORCHARD: Mr . Speaker, if I understood the member's first question, he wanted to know if there was any change in the status of the loan to the project that MTS had made and I'm not aware of any change in the status of the loan.

The project I am told is very near the completion in terms of homes served, but as of yet is not completed with all of the homes having the type of services delivered that were intended and intended to give the Telephone System an opportunity to investigate the capabilities once that system is in place. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, with respect to then specifically the loan, does the Minister tell the House that the MTS, other than through paying it back themselves, are going to recover the loan, or is the loan in danger of not being recovered so that the MTS will be fully subsidizing this project? MR.

ORCHARD: I think it wo uld somewhat premature to judge whether the company is going to be in a position to repay that loan. That financial indication will become evident probably later on this summer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Thank you very much, Mr . Speaker, my question is a follow-up to my Leader's questions to the Min ister responsible for Water Resources. I would ask the Mini ster why the government did not request that the Federal Government place on a high priority the question of the Garrison when Mr.

Cyrus Vance visited Ottawa and met with Prime Minister Trudeau, as well when President Carter and Prime Minister Trudeau met in Ottawa? Neither of these times did the Province of Manitoba request that the Garrison be discussed. I asked the Minister as well, why the Conservative members in Ottawa did not lobby in Washington along with Mr. Sargent and Mr. Axworthy when they were down. As well, Mr. Speaker, I asked the Minister again - there were two delegations to view the Garrison last fall. Again Mr. Sargent was there, Mr.

Axworthy was present , the Opposition in Manitoba was present represented by myself; there were native groups, Mr. Speaker, there was the Action Committee against Garrison, Mr. Speaker, the NFU sponsored - I asked the Minister why they boycotted all these delegations and as well, miss the splendid opportunity to have President Carter and Mr. Trudeau discuss Garrison. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I really believe that we don't gain a great deal by attempting to inject a degree of partisanship on this issue.

But for the honourable member's edific ation, the entire opposition. the entire Conservative caucus was on site and inspected the Garrison project in 19 73 at the time that the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose thought it was some fish species. We walked, the entire Conservative caucus at that time walked along the banks of the McCiuskey Canal and looked at the Lone Tree Reservoir that was being built, that was in 1973. So I don't think we gain any Brownie points by attempting to suggest as to who is more concerned about the project and who isn't concerned; we are all concerned about the project.

The department, my department, was satisfied that the issue of the Garrison was on the agenda on the da y tha t the visit of President Reagan was announced several weeks. We confirmed it and we are reconfirming it to make sure that it receives the kind of priority treatment that it deserves. Members who have attended conferences realize that there are many subjects on an agenda and I can imagine that the American President's first visit to Canada will have many such issues to discuss. In different parts of the country it's Fisheries issues that we have been at odds with with our American friends.

I'm sure that the question of other important matters, important to different parts of the country will be discussed. We want to make sure that the issue that is important to Manitoba - Garrison - is on the agenda and is getting a fair heari ng with the new Am eric an President on his first visit to Canada.

I think that is being accomplished; it's being accomplished with the effort by all Members of Parliament, particularly all Manitoba Members of Parliament and I suspect and I know, all members of this House on both sides of the House, support all efforts that the government is undertaking to ensure that Garrison gets that kind of attention. MR. ADAM: Mr . Speaker, I know the Mini ster doesn't have to answer my question but I still ask the question. Why was this not placed on the ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The question is repetitive. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS.

JUNE WESTBURY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Health and I wonder if he would report to us on the threatened strike with the nurses at the Winnipeg Mun icipal Hospitals. I understand the Mayor of the City was in to see the Minister this morning and I hope that the Minister is trying to persuade somebody not to have the strike, which would so affect a number of the geriatric patients out there.

Perhaps he can explain to us the difference in the salaries that are being received by nurses other than City of Winnipeg nurses, effective Jan uary 1s t last and April 1st coming up, which make quite a difference in the salaries being received by other nurses and by the City of Winnipeg nurses. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, the two-year agreement signed with the nurses, with MONA recently, called for an increase over the two-year period, an end rate increase, of 43 perc ent. it compounded out to 43 percent, approxi mately 26 percent in various stages over the first year and approximately 15 percent covering various stages over the second year and then the 1411

Friday, 6 March 1981 compounded figure amounted to about 43 percent. The rationale for that has been explained I hope satisfactorily. it lay primarily in the need to bring the nursing wage level in Ma nitoba up to a more competitive position with that being paid in other provinces. I haven't been involved up to this point in time and don't expect to be invo lved in the discuss ions relative to the Mu nicipal Ho spitals, Mr.

Sp eaker, other than insofar as I have a responsi bility, of course, as Minister of Health to ensure that the 350 to 400 patients in the Municipal Hospitals, all of them long-term, chronic care patients, some of them polio patients, are cared for at the highest possible level of quality 24 hours a day now and into the future. I und erstand that the Cha irman of the Municipal Hosp itals Bo ard is consulting with his board members, with his administration, and with the city as to the next steps that should be taken.

The hospitals are operated by the city, as the honourable member kno ws, and I assume tha t city administration and municipal hospitals administration are hard at work on resolving this issue before it reaches a point of serious confrontation. Certainly in respect to the request or the appeal by the honourable member that the Minister of Health do what he can to persuade the parties involved to reach amicable and early agreement, I will do that, but I have to do it in a hands-off way. I'm not involved in the administration of those hospitals, it's a city responsibility.

I'll do what I can to achieve an amicable and early solution without interfering in that process, Mr. Speaker. MS. WESTBURY: Mr . Sp eaker, I appreciate the Minister's remarks. I wonder if he would confirm that at the present time the City of Winnipeg nurses are being paid at a rate fifteen . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. Questions of confirmation do not really add to the information requ ested in the Qu est ion Period. Would the honourable member care to rephrase her question? MS. WESTBURY: Mr.

Sp eaker, I would be interested to know, and I wonder if the Min ister would tell me, whether the January 1st increase that other nurses are receiving place the city nurses 15 percent below the average wages of other nurses and whether the April 1s t increase that they expect to receive will leave the City of Winnipeg nurses 20 percent below other Manitoba nurses. MR. SHERMAN: I can't advise the honourable member precisely on those figures, Mr.

Speaker, but I could put it this way, that were the city nurses to receive no increase, then by the end of the year the nurses who work for the Province of Manitoba would be receiving approximately 26 percent more than the nurses who work for the City of Winnip eg. The stag ing of those incr eases is included; implementation dates such as January 1s t, April 1s t, September 1s t, but I'm not sure of the precise percentage breakdowns in each case. it may well be that what the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge is suggesting is the precise mathematical ratio. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge with a final supplementary. MS. WESTBURY: In endeavo uring to clarify the position of the Municipal Hospitals in the minds of the public and not wanting to change the status quo, having worked against any change in the status quo, would the Mi nister tell the Ho use who pays the funding for the Municipal Hospitals excepting that they are administered by the city and belong to the city, who actually funds the costs of the Municipal Hospitals, please? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, there is a joint relationsh ip in terms of funding of the Muni cipal Hospitals.

I will take as notice that question of the honourable member and get her the pr ecise information on that, but the Muni cipal Hospitals don't fall into precisely the same category as the other hospitals in the province that are funded fully by the Provincial Treasury. The important thing I think to keep in mind here, is tha t the whole admini st rativ e and hiring arrangem ent at the Municipal Hospitals is a city responsibility and I know that the city is very concerned with the situation at the moment, where the nurses at the Municipals are concerned.

Our concern is that those 350 to 400 long-stay, chronic care patients receive the kind of nursing attention that they receive around the clock and I would take the occasion to reassure the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge and all Members of this House that the Province of Manitoba will ensure that this level of care and that intensity of care is maintained. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture. Mr.

Speaker, the Mini ster of Agr iculture dur ing Agricultural Debates indicated that he favoured the conti nuatio n of the pool system, the one-pool system, in milk pricing in the Province of Manitoba. Could the Minister advise this House as to what role he is playing in the current discussions with respect to breaking down that one-pool system back to the old system of two pools? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mini ster of Agriculture. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr.

Speaker, at this particular point, I have not changed position and have not been playing any role other than just discussing with individual dairy farmers, on occasion, what their feeling toward the situation is, but as far as I'm concerned, my position is the same and to my knowledge, the situation hasn't changed any from the time of Estimates. MR. URUSKI: Could the Mi nister ind icate what direction he is giving the Manitoba Marketing Council with respect to its involvement in respect to the negotiations that are presently being prompted by, I believe, the Milk Producers Marketing Board? MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr.

Sp eaker , do n't particularly give direction to the Natural Products Marketing Council. However, Mr. Speaker, if they want my opinion they are quite free to read Hansard or to contact me directly and I will indicate to them, 1412

Friday, 6 March 1981 as I have on an informal basis, but there has been no direction come from me to them. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, is the Mini ster prepared to intervene, should a change, a major change in the marketing structure of milk occur, be impl emented in the Province of Ma nitoba? Is he pr epar ed to intervene in movements in this respect. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Sp eaker, as the member is quite aware that the system is in pl ace for the prod ucers to pro ceeed thr ough their elected representatives to move in the direction that they feel is in the best interests of the produc ers and before any changes are made, have to be cleared through the Natural Products Marketing Council or in fact, don't have to be cleared but if producers want to appeal they can put their case before the Counci l, either the pr oduc ers or any one affected by a decision of the Board.

At this point I'm not aware of any move to the two-pool system that should be stopped. 1 und erstand that it's in the process at this particular time of being requested but not being moved on. MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nourabl e Memb er for Springfield MR. ROBERT ANDERSON: I have a question to the Minis ter of Highways and Transportation. In view of the unusually mild winter we have been experiencing, one of the mil dest winters on record, could the Mi nister report on the conditio n of our northern roads. MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nourable Mini ster of Transporta tion. MR. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the Member for Springfield, for his interest in the Winter Road Program. As he indi cated, the mild winter has indeed caused us some heartaches and some anxiety. The mild stretch in January delayed the opening by about two weeks and the sustained mild period in February, at one point in time, made it look as if our winter road haul would not be comp leted this year but to date, Mr. Speaker, with the last 10 days of more normal temperatu res for this time of the year, the winter road system is open and all roads are operative.

They're not, I would n't say in the kind of condition that they have been in previous years but they are all open and functional right at this moment, Mr. Speaker. MR. ANDERSON: Mr. Speaker, could the Minis ter report further, related to the condition of the roads, the status of the freight haul to this point in time. MR. ORCHARD: Well, the freight haul, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to divide into two areas.

The northern roads which are primarily all north of PR 39 1, the freight haul has gone excep tionally well on those to date because they weren 't closed as long as the roads on the east side of Lake Winnip eg and to date we have approxi mately 95 percent of the freight in on the northern winter road haul, with only about a dozen loads that are committed, left to be hauled. So we are very close, Mr . Speaker, on the norther portion of the winter road system to having our freight haul com pleted and the communi ty served by those winter roads.

We have a somewhat different situation on the east side of Lake Winnipeg, where we ran into quite severe problems during the mild weather and to date we have probably 75 percent of the freight haul com pleted into those communities including the two additiona l communi ties that were added this year to the winter road system, namely Red Sucker Lake and Poplar River. There are a few over a hundr ed loads, about 10 5, 106 loads, yet to go into the communities served on the east side of Lake Winn ipeg.

It is expected that with probably another week or better of good weather or similar weather to what we've had in the last few days, that haul should be comple ted as well, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Thank you , Mr. Speaker. With the absence of the House Leader, I wonder if I can add ress a question to the Acting Hous e Leader.

Referring to the Order Paper of last Wednesday, March 4, in dealing with Orders for Returns that were accepted in previous sections and not dealt with yet, I wonder if the Minister could undertake to make enqui ries and report to the House as to the reasons for delay in the filing of these Returns and a reasonable expectation period when they could be filed. I refer particul arly to the Mi ns ter , an outs tanding order sinc e May 16 , 19 79 from the Department of Agriculture and subs equent ones, the next one of which would have its first ann iversary this month. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Acting Government House Leader. HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'll make those inqui ries and advise my honourable friend. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour ab le Member for Churc hill. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

During the Estimates of the Mi nis ter of Transportation he gave me an assurance tha t he would ch eck in to dete rmine whether or not the re has been any government participation by either the Provincial or Federal Government in the construction of a winter road from Co-op Point to Brochet or Lac Brochet, the Mi nister took that as notice and advised me he would get back to me as soon as he could. As it has been a couple of weeks since that time and as he has such detailed in formatio n on winter roads available to him now, I'd ask him if he can provide me with that information. MR.

ORCHARD: The winter road that the Member for Chur chill refers to was a winter road pushed through by a private haul contractor and in any investigation that I have made, it is ind icated that no government funding went toward the construction of that wint er road, eit her from the Provincial Government or in deed from enqui ries we made, nor 14'13

Friday, 6 March 1981 from the Federal Government. That road was constructed by the cont ractor who undertook to deliver certain quantities of freight and he undertook it at his expense, Mr. Speaker. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker, a supple mentar y quest ion to the Mi nister on a somewhat different subject.

On January 13, 19 81, I wrote to the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism suggesting that the province participate in the In ternational Cargoe Handling Co-ord ination Association 15 th bi-annual conference in Edmonton, Alberta, on June 7 to 12 th, 19 81, which deals with the utilization of ports throughout the world. The Minister assured me, or wrote back to me, excuse me, indicating that he'd pass that request onto the Minister of Transportation. I have yet to hear from the Minister of Transportation as to the Provincial Gov ernment 's involvement in that par ticular conference.

I think it must be noted that this can be utilized as an effective way to promote the Port of Churchill and I'd ask the Minister if he has taken the advice which was provided to him in tha t correspondence and has arranged for any provincial participation in that cargo handling co-ordination conference. MR. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, any time the topic of the Port of Churchill surfaces it is certainly this government and members of this side of the House who are indeed greatly concerned about the future of the Port of Churchill and its use and to give the Member from Churchill some further clarification, in conjunction with the Minister of Agriculture, the MLA for Dauphin, the Minister of Northern Affairs, we are in the process of attempting to arrange a conference hopefully in June of this year for the City of Dauphin, hosted by the Province of Manitoba, and inviting the Federal Transportation Minister and the Provincial Transportation and Agricultur al Mi nisters to that conference to di scuss the use of Chur chill particularly from the standpoint of this season's grain haul.

That is one effort that we've made in promoting the Port of Churchill. Further to the member's specific question about the upcoming Cargo Handling Conference, I am awaiting, Mr. Speaker, advice from my Department of Transportation and Research as to what types of display materials are available to better show off the capabilities and the potential in the future for the Port of Churchill. I expect a report from them shortly, Mr. Speaker, and if we can put together on what is rather short notice for that kind of a Cargo Handling Conference an effective and very positive display for the Port of Chur chi ll, Mr .

Sp eaker, we would certainly intend to do that and show to Western Canada and indeed to the rest of the world, who use deep sea ports, that Manitoba has a very positive and very excellent presence and future in the Port of Churchill to service offshore customers in grains and deep sea port facilities. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Hon ourable Member for Kildonan on a point of order. MR. PETER FOX: Mr . Speaker, I realize you have a very di fficult role and you contin ually keep admonishing members to be brief and to the point.

I also realized that our procedures allow us many ways of members of this Ho use presenting their points of view and if the Minister wishes to make a statement, I would suggest that he do it under the proper order of business where ministerial statements can be made. I'm sure that he is abusing the privileges of this House when he starts to give us a long lecture about what is happening. The question was very specific and all he had to do was give a short brief answer; instead, he went into a big elaboration. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please.

The point of order raised by the Honourable Member for Kildonan is well taken and I hope it is well taken by all members of this Cham ber who, each and every one, ha ve a tendency to make their own statements du ring Qu est ion Period rather than asking questions. The Hono ura ble Member for Churchill with a supplementary. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, the Member for Kildonan has made it very difficult for me to pursue one of my normal

preambles. My quest ion to the Min ister of Transportation is in respect to another su bject which is of urgent concern and that is the replacement of the MU -2 air evacuation aircraft. Yesterday, the Minister indicated that they had tested out an ai rcraft which was found to be unsuitable because it would not accommodate a stretcher. The Minister neglected to give us the specific name of that aircraft. I would hope he would be able to provide us with more detail as to when that test was conducted and the name and type of aircraft upon which the test was conducted. MR. SPEAKER: Order ple ase.

The Honourable Member for lnkster on a point of order? MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr . Speaker, I wish to rise on a point of order. Mr . Speaker, I noticed that you very carefully permit a question and two supplementaries, and I do not believe that should be used, that procedure that you have used should permit a member to ask three different questions as if it were a question and two supplementaries. I think that there should be an answer to the question, Mr. Speaker, but I think that all members should be aware that they cannot have three questions. They can have a question and two supplementaries on the same subject. MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Kildonan on a point of order raised. MR. FOX: I would like to indicate that I'm not aware that there is any rule written that we cannot have three questions. There is also no rule written that we can have supplementaries. We have had a custom in this House that has been going on for a long time and that was that members could ask a question and ask suppl ementaries. The problem that has arisen is that sometimes members do not wish to ask a supplem entary and would rather have anothe r question.

Now the Speaker is not aware whether it's a supplementary or another question and I think the common pr actice has been that we've allowed members to have three questions generally. 1414

Friday, 6 March 1981 MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Inkster on a point of order. MR. GREEN: On a point of order, I would like to give the Speaker notice, Mr. Speaker, if that is the rule and I understand it not to be, but if that is the rule I wish to give notice that henceforth I will expect you to recognize me three tim es and I will ask three dif ferent questions of three different Min isters. Now I think that is a complete abus e of the Question Period and I say so and I would ask, Mr. Speaker, that you not permit me to do what I'v e just given you notice I would do if my learned friend's

interpretation is correct. MR. SPEAKER: Order pl ease. The Honourable Acting Go vernment Hous e Leader on a point of order. MR. JORGENSON: The same point of order, Mr. Speaker. It has always been my understanding that the rule that we set down for ourselves was that a member would be permitted to ask a question and two supplementaries. By the very nature of the word, one would conclude that supplementary related to the original question. So I suggest, Sir, that the point raised by the Member for Ink ster is a proper one and should be adhered to. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Finance on a point of order. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney): Yes, Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order, I should simply point out to the House and place on the record what happened earlier this week which is contrary to the descr iption of the Honourable House Leader where you. Sir, did not recognize the Memb er for Roblin for a second suppl ementary and pointe d out to the Hous e that indeed it was not required by the rules to recognize him for a second supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

May I point out to the honourable membe rs that the us e of the Question Period is for the members of this Chamber. If the members of this Chamber attempt to abuse it, then we become subject to some of the points of order that are presently raised. If all members of the Chamber are co-operative and willing, I'm sure we won't have points of order being raised at this time on such matters. The prerogative of the Chair is the final one. I would hope that members would be courteous and attempt to follow an unwritten rule with respect to questions in this House. We now have two minut es left in the Question Period.

The Honourable Mi nister of Transportation. MR. ORCHAR D: Mr. Speaker, I'd like the opportunity to reply to the Member for Chur c hill's ques tion. The reply - and I must apologize to the Opposition Government Hous e Leader - this may take two min utes, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: would sugge st th at the Honourable Minister give a written reply in that case. The Honourable Member for Inks ter. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Sp eaker, with respect to a que stion to the Ho nourable Mi n ister of Transportation with respect to the Brochet winter road, can the Mi nister assure this contractor, who has done the work on his own to get a winter road through, that if the publi c ever builds a road there, he will not be precluded by the Motor Transport Board having given advance use -(lnt erjection ) Mr. Speaker, it's a very serious question - have not given advance use and exclusive use of that road to a carrier that has never carried any freight to Brochet. MR. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, that is a situation which of course is extremely hypothetical and at such time as the Province of Ma nitob a and our admin istration some 25 years hence possibly, builds a road to Lac Brochet, we will in deed gi ve consideration as we have to carriers wanting to unde.rtake freight haul into those communi ties. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Time for question period having expired, we'll proceed with Orders of the Day The Acting Government Hous e Leader. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minis ter of Health thatMr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the Hous e resolve itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Sup ply to be granted to Her Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment, and the Honourable Mem ber for Portage Ia Prairie in the Chair for the Department of Labour and Man power. CONCU RRENT COMM ITTE ES OF SUPPL V SUPPL V - LABOUR AND MANPOWER MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Lloyd G.

Hyde (Portage Ia Prairie): This Committee will come to order. We are on Resolution 88, on the Mi nister's Salary. The Member for The Pas. MR. RONALD McBRYDE: It is my understanding from my colleague that we will be dealin g with Workers Compensation under this

section as well; is that so? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I would need advice on that. MR. HENRY J. EI NARS ON (Rock Lake): Mr. Chairman, we are on the Mini ster's Salary now and the members have the li berty to make their final comments. -(Int erjec tion)- Yes, cover the watefront, and that's it. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: As I understand, when we get onto the Mi nister's Salary, we can discuss the whole issue. The Member for Churchi ll. MR. JAY COWAN: At the beginning, the Mi nister will reca ll and I think substantiate, we decided mutually tha t Workers Compensation would be 1415

Friday, 6 March 1981 discussed specifically under the Minister's Salary. That was a decision that was made mutually and the Minister, according to my analysis of the situation, was in full agreement with. So that is why I had suggested to the Member for The Pas that this is the appropriate

section to bring up problems dealing with Workers Compensation. We have, in fact, not been discussing those items and saving them for the Workers Compensation as per an agreement on the Minister's opening day. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: As Chairman, I'm not aware that any agreement was made at the time. I believe we are open to general di scussion on Resolution 88 and the Minister's Salary. The Member for The Pas. MR. M!=BFIYDE: Mr. Chairman, I don't really lil<e it when there is some sort of understanding that is not carried out, but I have no problem.

I can talk about whatever I want under the Minister's Salary and I can ask him questions about Workers Comp ensation under his salary, so I'll proceed to do that. I hope it doesn't upset the Member for Rock Lake, but I'll proceed in that manner. Mr. Cha irpers on, I would like to get ( 1) the Min ister's comments; (2) the Mini ster's policy direction and, (3) what his thinking is at this time in terms of Workers Compensation.

The Minister is well aware and it's been a problem raised many times in the past, but in regard to the disability, when a person is found to have a certain percent disability as a result of an industrial accident and that amount is fixed and a regular payment which is based on the person's salary at the time the accident occurred, a percentage of that. Anyway, it's fixed; at the time of the accident, a rate is fixed. As the member is well aware, many pensions now and many payments are indexed.

I mean, if you're on Social Allowance, you get an adjustment every once in a while; if you're a Member of the Legislature you get an adjustment based on the cost of living, etc. I wonder what the current thinking is and the current policy is and the current direction is in that regard. Will there be any effort made to index the disability pensions resulting from industrial accidents? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Hono urable Minister. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thomps on): Mr . Chairman, the review of the benefits under The Compensation Act and the board and the services are always of concern.

We have had a committee established to review what started out to be simply procedures. That review extended its tentacles into virtually the whole operation of the Compensation Board. I'm not sure what the Lampe Committee is going to recommend in that particular regard or if in fact they do but I would like to reserve my comments on whether we think we should put in an escalating type of a system. I understand, and I could be corrected, there may be one jurisdiction that does but I understand that there are really no other jurisdictions in the countr y that have indexed precisely those benefits.

I'm not saying that's right or wrong. I know that the Lampe Committee reviewed a lot of aspects of the entire system. I have assured the members that when that report comes down I'll make it public and it may in fact include some recommendations along that line. I have some indications of some areas which we discussed, I don't whether it was with the Member for Kildonan or Churchill during the Estimates; we did touch on compensation and certain aspects of it. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairperson, just to clarify it for the record on the 19 th of February the Member for Logan asked the Mi nister about Wo rkers Compensation and the Minister's reply was, "That's a bit of debate amongst ourselves. If it's okay with the committee I am quite prepared to talk about it now or under the Mi nister's Sa lary. it's not earmarked as a division within the Estimates so let her go anywhere now or at a later date if you want to prepare questions." So that's where the Member for Churchill got his understanding that it would be quite appropriate to discuss it here.

I wonder if there is a compilation of cases in terms of hard ship? I'm assuming that if somebody was injured 20 years ago with a fairly serious, like 80 or 90 percent disability, where they can't work now, what kind of a record is kept and is there the possibility of adjustments being made or does it have to be a legislative change in terms of all disability pensions being indexed or what is the current situation in that regard? MR.

MacMASTER: The benefits under The Compensation Act are in fact reviewed and upgraded every second or third year and I'm not sure whether the 20-year-old or 25 -year-old pensions fall in that bracket or not. The indexing of pensions per se and going back to do them, I'm not sure of any jurisdiction that's considering that entire process at this moment. MR. McBRYDE: Does that answer mean that the Minister is not considering it at this moment since there is no jurisdictions considering it and that it's something that the cost of which is just too high to consider? MR.

MacMASTER: lt hasn't been considered to date, the upgrading of pensions under all sorts of circumstances. Widowers with dependants and with no dependants are reviewed periodically and brought before the House. The indexing per se, I have to say to the member, has not been considered at this moment. MR. McBRYDE: Yes. On the same subject but a little bit different question, I wonder what the present status and the Min ister's thinking is in terms of compensation.

As I understand it, and I'm not an expert in this field and I'm not fully familiar with the exact nature of the Compensation Board and how they make their awards, but it's my understanding that, I guess you could say it's fairly mechanical, that is, it's determined tha t a person has so much percent inability to do what he was doing before, so he can only do half of what he did before or she can only do 75 percent of what she did before. I'm wondering what the current direction is in terms of the other effects, like a serious injury of 75 1416

Friday, 6 March 1981 percent disability or even a lesser, 40 or 30 percent disabili ty can have a pretty severe psychological, emotional im pact on a person and can affect their whole life. I think the Minister might be aware and I'm vaguely familiar with a couple of cases where, because of the disability and the accident, the case has evolved where in fact there has been quite a severe psychological effect.

I think that in one case that I'm familiar with in another province, the person was quite functional and able to work on a steady basis with probably less than a 50 percent disability, then for some reason or other turned to alcohol and their whole life just changed and the family life was ruined, etcetera, yet there was no way, I guess, to consider that within the disability.

The other aspect of it is that in the psychological and emotion al, it's an area th at's not clearly und erstood but certainly a physical injury does affect the emotional and psy chologic al state in some physical way which is not clearly understood. If your nerves are pinched, for example, with a spinal injury, the exact nature of the effect, in terms of emotional psychological, is pretty hard to pin down at the time the award is made. In another area of chemical poisoning or carbon monoxide where there's a brain defect, I mean it's almost impossible to determine the extent of the injur y in th at case.

If a person is slightly brain damaged and it affects, let's say, one side of their body and they can 't walk, you can see some physical effect. But you don't know if it has changed their ability to reason or ability to function, etcetera. It's very hard to determine, even with extensive testing, exactly what percent of the ability is lost. There are other physical effects that certainly have a strong psychological effect. If a person's sexual function is affected physically, then the psychological effect is very traumatic and all those detailed kind of aspects.

I wonder what efforts are being made by the Compensation Board and by this government and the Minis ter in terms of the exploration of those areas and in terms of the upgrading of the ability to deal with those kind of situa tions that we are becoming a little bit better to diagnose, a little bit better to determine the effect but still there's a long way to go; it's still a very vague area. I wonder if the Min ister could bring me up to date in terms of what the thinking is and what the dir ection is in that regard . MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, your percentage is to try and remember the questions that were posed. The percentage is established by and large by some of the supposedly best medical authorities that we have today and it's always a debatable point. Not always, but after years of dealing with compensation claims I know that people feel its 20 percent. it should be more, 30 or 40. But the people rely. we rely, on the best medical evidence and opinio ns tha t we can get to establish th at percentage. On the psy chological effect of an accident I couldn't agree with the Member for The Pas more.

I have been an advocate for years of the philosophy, and again, I agree with him on an unkn own degree of thought that I had; I couldn't medically, not being in the business, and I'm not sure that people within the business can determine . but I'v e always felt that there were other degrees of proficiency by a person after certain types of accidents. I' ve witnessed it, I've lived with it, I' ve been partner to many people who have been hurt very badly and I have also been a great advocate going back 25 years I suppose, of better rehab facilities, better rehab treatment.

I' ve often felt, and I must clarify that, from a layman's viewpo int, that a lot of people are back at work too soon. I kn ow of many instan ces where people have been severely hurt and in my opinion they are physically capable of work and yet they are not work ing. I know that it's in my expression, in their head. They just can 't force thems elves to go back into tha t situation again; they can 't test thems elves. There are those of us who dis regard that and go back.

You know, I was injured very badly myself at one time and I forced myself back into the scene and I thought that was the psychological way I should do it. It worked with me but everybody isn't made the same way and some people just can 't get back at it. I didn't precisely tell the Lampe Commi ttee what to look at but they certainly talked to me about some of my major concerns and rehabilitation of people that are hurt is well documented in the province.

If you wish to dig out, going right back to the days when I was very active the Manitoba Federat ion of Labour, I was always talking about rehabil itation and was never satisfied with reh abili tation . I'm reaso nably convinced that the Lampe Comm ittee has listened and that they may be making some very substantial recommendations as it relates to rehabilitation of injured workers in the Province of Manitoba. MR. McBRYDE: I would ask the Minis ter if there's been any specific action taken recently or whether he's waiting on the report before specific actions are taken. MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to play with words but it's been a demand of labour in the province and of others for many years that more emphasis be put on rehab. That's why it, I say with a great deal of inner self-satisfaction, I appointed that cor .1mi ttee. It's pro bably, and the Mem ber from Kildonan maybe remembers better than I do, but I think it's the first review of that type probably ever in the province. There might have been one in the Forties or the Fifties that I am not aware of. So, yes, I guess the bottom line answer is I'm waiting for that review and tha t report and th ose set of recommendations. MR.

McBRYDE: I guess one of the things that happens, Mr. Chair pers on, is that a person isn't totally familiar with the Workers Comp ensation system until they do have an accident and they have the experience of it. Then, sort of, after the shock of the accident and the beginning of recupera tion, etc., they start to look a little more closely at it and they can 't help but make a comparison between other types of accidents, like an industrial accident where you get compensation and let's say an automobile accident where you end up in court and get quite a su bstantial award.

Of course, that relates to the person's whole understanding of how compensation came about, because it was not possible for workers, generally. to get that through the legal system and through other means, to get fair and reasonable 14 17

Friday, 6 March 1981 compensa tion. So the public, through their governments, decided to get involv ed in the compensation system to ensure that there was some assistance for workers who had been injured on the job. But I wonder if the direction that the Minister ant icipates, will there be a moving closer to compensation that's available in the case where fault is proven in di fferent circumstances, and the compensation to workers who are injured on the job, where there is not that court possibility in terms of, on the part of the workers? MR.

MacMASTER: I'm not sure what the question is and I'm not being saucy, I just don't know what the question is. MR. McBRVDE: I'm asking the Minister if he sees that undef the Workers Compensation system, will it move in the direction of fault and of compensation or damages that are available to people injured in other ways, for example, in an automobile accident where they can go to court with it. MR. MacMASTER: I don't see see that happening at this particular moment.

Now, if we go back 25 years, we didn't see a Compensation Board Act either, so that type of coverage may be something in the future but the precise answer is I don't see it right now. MR. McBRVDE: One final area that is becoming more and more evident and I think the Minister has talked about this and my colleagues have talked about this in the past, but if the Min ister could update me, in the area of new compensatable injury or disease, I would like to know exactly how that's determined, like how are those decisions made?

How does it finally we end up that a new problem related to working in industry becomes compensatable? I'm thinking specifically of an incident that was talked about on the radio last night, or the night before, the effect of microwave on somebody work ing in industry, air traffic controllers and people that are working with this kind of radiation. The person in this particular case was from the States and the person was saying that for example, in the States that's not a recognized compensatable industrial illness or disease, or in that particular state it wasn't at least.

But for example, in Russia it was recognized as a compensatable disease. In this particular case, his client died from the disease that was directly related to his work and he thought it was probably the first death that was recorded from this particular illness as a result of industria l work, because in area s where it is recognized as a disease then they take the people off the job as soon as any symptoms appear, which is not necessa rily . . . There should be more preventive measures than wait till symptoms to appear.

But I assume from overhearing my colleagues in the past, and the Minister in the past, and previous Ministers of Labour, that there is an extensive effort to identify new problems, to improve the classification in terms of di seases that are industrially caused, that are directly related to the person's work. I wonder if the Minister could bring me up to date on how that decision is made and what efforts are being made to look at that and classify it and whether he has any information specifically on diseases related to microwave. MR. MacMASTER: Mr .

Chairman, the member made reference to the fact that allegedly a benefit is compensationable under the Russian system and it's not unde r the system in the Unit ed St ates or probably in Canada. I thilik you would find that the workers in Russia and similar to Poland, would probably trade that one alleged benefit for some of the freedoms that we have in our country, collective bargaining-wise and otherwise. How is a situation decided, or how is an ailment decided that it's compensationable? I can give you an exact example in which I was involved.

I was President of the Steelworkers in Thompson when a thing called nickel rash was occurring with the men working in the refinery. There was a period of time when it wasn't considered an ailment. The Union managed to convince the company to transfer some of these people and see what would happen to their hands and their arms and their necks. Lo and behold, and this is a difficult one because just literally hundreds of people work in a refinery and nothing happens to them, but the odd person it did.

Of course, I guess the argument in those days was that it was the individual and not the condition and that made it even tougher. We managed to have some of them transferred. I presented the case. They were good people. They deserved a job, for a probatio nar y period or other wise; give them a transfer to the mine yard or underground, or smelter or mill or wherever, and let's see what happens to the neck and the arms and the rash, which turns I should tell you, into scabs. it's very, very sore. They transferred them. lt worked well.

We then called in the Compensation Board, who reviewed all documentation, reviewed the cases, talked to the people. In a very short period of time anybody that contacted nickel rash, or eventually got nickel rash and was incapable of working to any degree, was put on compensation. From there came the step - I don't sup pose there's been a Compensation case for that, for God, I don't know if it would be ten or twelve years - there might have been the odd one - because we worked it into the ideal situation where the company then realized that here was a situation that affected certain people.

The second it showed up, the people were transferred out to similar jobs in other areas. So that ideally worked itself out. I suppose what you do, and it comes in different ways, asbestosis and silicosis, it took years years to establish some of these. A positive relationship has to be established between the worker and the environment in which he works. The Member for The Pas is aware of a member that sits in his backbenches who has talked to me about the relationship to the work he's had in his life as it relates to some of the ailments he has today.

I don't know whether we had ever established that but he and I have certainly talked about that. I guess the simplest way to say it is that if there is in fact some medical evidence before it's happening or some real evidence that can be presented to the company and employers and the Board, the Board then reviews it - sadly enough, it's usually in hindsight - reviews cases that have happened and tries to relate it in fact to the condition under which the person is working.

If it has been established that the person got that ailment, injury or whatever as it related to the job and the work he was doing, then it becomes compensationable. 1418

Friday, 6 March 1981 MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairpers on, I just want to comment on the Mini ster's first comments that he made. I was not commenting on the politi cal situation , I was just commenting that di fferent jurisdictions have different authority. I was not in any way saying that there was something preferable in the commu nist Russian sys tem , it's just that jurisdiction has reco gniz ed that disease. If it had been El Salvador that recog ni zed the di sease.

I would have mentioned that as a fact, just to show that each jurisdiction has di fferent ways of dete rmining what diseases are compensatable and what diseases are not compensatable. From the Mini ster's other comments. I sort of have the uneasy feeling that it's still basically up to the worker and the worker's union to begin to make some effort to recognize a new proble m when it exists.

Of cou rse, if you have a strong, effective union then you have that kind of action; if you have a person that's working in industry that is not yet unioni zed or where the union is not that effective in the area of health and safety and compensation matters, then the person is left pretty well on their own hook. I wonder if there's any kind of aggressive policy being est abli shed by the Workers Comp ensa tion Board or by this government or the Mini ster to seek out, explore. sort of to be in the vanguard in terms of saying.

"This is a disease that - like this problem seems to be happening in this plant alone and it might be only a few people are effected by it," like the Mi nister 's example, but to have a way to quickly deal with it on the part of the province and the part of the board so that it doesn't have to drag on for a long time or that it doesn't depend upon somebody else to make it happen.

But the first time that there's any kind of a pattern de ve loping or a dis ease appeari ng, that there be a way to investigate it quite fully at the start, so it doesn't have to drag on lik e asbestosis and other things did for such a long time before they were proven. I wonder if there is any agressive effort on the part of the board or this gover nment. MR. MacMASTER: Your board is constantly reviewing trends, as the member has said. I suppose that's one area that I'd forgotten to mention.

They are constantly dealing with other jurisdictions right throughout North America as it relates to other trends and other new established compensationable accidents and diseases. MR. DEPU TY CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Kildonan. MR. PETER FOX: Thanks, Mr. Chairman. I have a numb er of areas that I want to touch on because I missed them due to the fact that I was called out and had to also attend the other comm ittee for a while. The first question I'd like to ask is if the Mini ster can ind ica te how soon we' ll get the Workers Compensation Board Report?

Also, in respect to Workers Com pensation - I' ll put a coupl e of questions together so that he can deal with them. In respect to a hearing imp airment, the Mi nister of Environment, I believe, just recen tly ga ve some paramaters that they were looking at in regard to the environment as to what is determined as pollution. 1 know that having personal problems in this particular regard, often you get a letter saying there's imp airment there but it's ins ufficient to be compensable.

I just wonder whether the Mini ster could give us some rough guidelines as to what are the paramaters within which this di sability falls, because if a person isn't aggressive, he's not going to get the service that he requires. The disability may not necessarily be compensable but nevertheless it is a disability and it creates a problem. If there are no other solutions to it, does a person have to stay in this no man's land of not being compensable, and not being able to get real redress and at the same time having a problem. That's one area.

The other question that I wanted to ask: I had ind icated to the Min ister some concern in respect to the relationship between his department and the Health Department in respect to domestics and so on. I'm wondering whether he's going to get an answer back to me on that and there were a numb er of other questions that he took as notice and I'm not aware that we have received the answers to them. So if he would check with his staff they may have them ready now.

There was also an area in the Training and Development Branch - I had to leave early - 1 wanted to ask the Mini ster, in respect to special incent ives in the private sector to employ female apprentices, could he explain to us what that special incentive is and how it works. In the area of new trades apprentic esh ip, tool and di e maker was ind icated as being one.

Now, all the other trades had, I would imagine, some certification because when the graph was made out as to how many certificates were issued, how many apprentic es and so on, there was ind ication that either there had been a grandfather clause or something because people had certificates. In the tool and die maker area, there was none. I'm just wondering, does that mean that tool and die makers were never certified before and if we're going into this apprenticeship program, will they all be certified only in the future, or what is the position of the Labour Department in that regard?

One other question in respect to pre-employment orientation: I don't believe we got any figur es on how many students from the various schools had been put out for pr e-emp loyment training or orientat ion. What kind of indus tries were the y inv olved in, aside from the construc tion areas, because I do know that they were also involved in the packing house indus try but more in the trades area, that is the po werhouse area and the carpentering and the electri cal and so on. I just wondered whether we could get a brief description of that.

Now I know the Mi nister may not have all of this information at his fingertips and I'm prepared to trust him that he'll pick it up if he hasn't and submit it to the comm ittee at a later time or else to myself or any other member of this comm ittee. MR. MacMASTER: The report on the Compensation Board, the Lampe's Report, is at the printers. Hearing loss is in fact compensable. I know it's a difficult area. I know there are some great debates about the percentages that should and should not be allowed. The Health Department thing, I tell the Member for Kild onan I will get that, that our relationship to the 1419

Friday, 6 March 1981 Health Department and the people that are working there ... I'll get that. I'll get it documented, I'll give it to him, I tell him that. The tool and die trade - the member's asking it's going to be a possibility for people that have been in that kind of work, as others do, to take a shot at writing the exam. And yes, I can assure him that will take place. lt isn't right there now; we've just proclaimed it as a trade and we have the curriculum established.

We have the committee established; I've appointed the reps on the Advisory Committee. it's going; the same with the mold and pattern worker. We'll do the same with that. I can assure him that both of them will have the same opportunities as others. The numbers in the pr e-employment categories at the schools - I'll have to get those numbers for him. I just don't have that. I have to tell the member in all honesty I do n't know of any outstanding questions, maybe he can think of one. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kildonan. MR.

FOX: One question flows from the answer and that is that tool and die makers have never been certified previously? That's one, and secondly, let me also ask him in respect to one female apprentice as a power engineer, could he inform the committee as to what category of power engineer? I understand power engineers as someone who qualifies for steam, refrigeration and electrical power engineer, or is this specifically related to Hydro's needs as an operator in respect to a power station operation? MR. MacMASTER: it's strictly related to Hydro.

The tool and die was not a certified trade by Manitoba in the fact that Manitoba didn't have a curriculum or a course, there were certainly tool and die tradespeople working in the province. The burning need for that, I think, was obvious to all of us. We just didn't have that trade established in the province and had to get on with it, if for no other industry, and there's lots of others, it was the aerospace industry. They were just crying for it.

As I said to the member before, I am blessed with being in a good position now, not as good as I want it to be, but where I also have something to say about immigration. We're aware that an awful lot of the tool and die people, some of the best in the world, came from Germany and from Europe and this is what industry has done over the years. My philosophy is pretty simple. I think there are a hell of a lot of Manitobans that can be trained, and some of them are already in the workplace that would love an opportunity to upgrade themselves.

Some are out there, young people, middle-aged people, who want to get a shot at a trade that's going to be there for a long time. So it's established now and I can assure the member that there will be opportunities for those that have worked in related work to write for that exam or - I just don't know the exact system - how you can cut in at the fourth, third years' worth and upgrade yourself and write for your ticket. MR. FOX: Will the Minister indicate whether people who have been in the trade and are established and may not necessarily want to write the written exam ...

Is there a grandfather clause involved in respect to some established tool and die makers who are now jou rney men, have been at it and will not necessarily want to write for a certificate, can they get a journeyman's ticket? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, I'd rather not guess at it. I'll get the answer if there is a grandfathering claus.e, the same as we had with the Miners Apprenticeship Progra,m when it first came in; a whole raft of people became tradesmen in that particular trade. I'll find out and get that answer. MR.

FOX: One question the Minister omitted and I know it was inadvertently, was in respect to the special incentives in the private sector to employ female apprentices. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, I suppose it's an incentive but it's in a different way. it's not an incentive given the company, it's incentive in the fact tha t we pay the pers on's salary and I don't remember the number of weeks, but it works its way out of it as time goes on, and I can get those figures for the member.

But it has similarities to the New Careers Program where we do pick up the bulk of the salary when they are first coming on line and it works its way out of that, and I don't have that exact

schedule in front of me. But it's not an incentive to the comp any per se to hire somebody, it's an incentive by the fact that we're paying the salaries to the company if in fact they'll employ the person in meaningful - and put them through the appropriate procedures. MR. FOX: Does that mean that the employer will receive the amount and pay the apprentice or is it the other way around, the employee will receive the incentive, whatever amount it happens to be? Further to that, Mr. Chairman, how is this particular incentive publicized?

Is it publicized at the school level or are the emp loyers informed, or is just the ind ustry informed so that people will be aware of this particular incentive? MR. MacMASTER: All three parties in the province are aware of it. The Federal Government, of course you are aware, is quite deeply involved in this and I thought it had been reasonably well advertised. MR. FOX: lt may be, pot�sibly I'm not reading enough industrial news because I wasn't aware of it until I noticed it in the Minister's Report. But I would appreciate a . . . MR. MacMASTER: Schedule. MR.

FOX: ... a schedule, yes, that would indicate where this is. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Logan MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I believe this is a part where we deal with the Workers Compensation and I have some questions to the Min ister with regard to compensation. I think I raised with the Minister last year and perhaps the year before the thought of an expanded information service, for the Workers Compensation, dealing with making workers aware of what they should do if they are injured, how to file for their 1420

Friday, 6 March 1981 claims and things like that. We do n't have that problem that much in organized shops but where I think the real problem lies is where people are working in unorgan ized places. I know that we have booklets and such going out, pamphlets, and while they serve a certain purpose. Mr. Chairman, - a number of years ago I think the Wor kers Compensation did a little bit of TV adver tising; mainly it was entailed with safety, I think, at that time.

But I think that what the department and the Compensation Board should be looking at is not only safety but also a program entailed with telling people how they would file their claims, emphasizing, - I think the Minister has already said when we were discussing Workplace, Safety and Health that people are becoming more aware, even when they get a sliver or a splinter, that they report them. That is one of the messages that we seem to have to be able to get across to the people.

I just wonder if the Minister has explored with the visual and audio media, mainly T.V. and radio, they have public service spots that they have at times, if the Board has explored that. I mean that would be one way of doing it, of being able to get that visual message, which seems to be in today's world the best way of getting to people, because if people see it, it's repeated at various times - we only have to look at the great battle that's going on today between various companies in the same field. Some, well I can throw one out for instance.

The T.V. battle is going on today between Pepsi-Cola and Coca-Cola and surprisingly enough, the sales of Pepsi-Cola are increasing because of the message that they are getting across to the public on the testing of drinks. I'm not here to tell you which drink is better than the other. But I think and I feel that the Board itself would be doing a service to the working public of Manitoba if they thought a bit about that type of a program and perhaps not concentrate as much on the written word as they have in the past. Has the Minister given any thought to that or the Board? MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman. the member is correct that there are more pamphlets going out, more being distributed throughout the province,

Part 1 or Part half of one, whatever that is. What the member is really talking about is part of the concern that I had as a Minister responsible for that Compensation Board and that's a good chunk of the reason why that Lampe Comm ittee was established, (

a) to give us some recommendations in conjunction with the Compensation Board and all the briefs in the hearings and everything else that they heard on how to get the message out more, how to make people aware, how to pound it into people's heads that they should in fact report accidents. You know. we have talked about it for years and years and years. I hear, as I travel around the province, more people saying they are now doing it.

There's no qu estion in my mind; union leaders tell me, individuals tell me, that people now in fact are getting to that point where, the heck with it, if it's a twisted finger, rather than just wrap an old rag around it, they go and do something about it. I suppose when I was younger, I was as guilty of that as everybody else. I wanted to get the job done, get finished. and get out of whatever bad spot I was in and get away. The Lampe Committee, I'm sure, dealt with that very precise thing. We wanted some very simple things done and of course some complicated things.

We wanted to make Ma nitobans aware of their rights, make sure they knew what they were and make sur e that they knew that they should be reporting them, and make sure that the procedure in getting a claim established is simple and understood. I don't know the last time when the member looked at a Compensation form but to a lot of people who have never bothered with those types of forms, it looks like one of the new Federal Income Tax forms.

You know, it's sort of baffling to a lot of people and I know over the years many people have said, the hell with it, it's only a cut finger, I'm not going to bother even filling it out.

So that was part of the role of the Lampe Committee, to find out from people, as they travelled around the province, how aware they were of their rights, and then do some thinking about how their rights should be established and how people should be made aware of it, and to get their procedures pretty simplistic so that the average working man and women in the province can fill out a form and feel comfortable that they are not tied up in such a jungle of bureaucracy, that something is really going to happen. MR.

JENKINS: Well, I think what the Minister has said is quite true, that the safest thing that you can do if you're injured, and it doesn't really matter how minor the injury is, is that you report the accident, and that if there is a complication, that you get a claim and a claim number.

I think that is the big thing and 1 hope that the committee, when it reports, will have dealt with that. it's one that I have been very interested in for a number of years because I think that many of the problems that people come to ML As with, after the fact, is that many of the problems were the inability or the lack of care of reporting and actually getting a claim established.

That has been a real problem and if the Lampe Commission comes up with something, I certainly hope that the commission, when it reports, will deal with that aspect, because I think that one of the problems is to get that message out to the people. And if the Min ister is saying that through his travels through the province, that people are doing this more and more now, are reporting, that is indeed good news. I imagine he, like I, will not be satisfied until 10 0 percent of the people are doing it. That is a real problem that we have, getting that message across.

Tha t is why I sug gested, and I have suggested, and I guess as long as I'm here I'll keep suggesting that we keep working at it and I hope that the Minister will. There is another problem, too, that I have raised in the past . I raised it when we were government; nothing was done, and nothing has been done.

I raised it with this government, and that has been, has there been any thought of establishing rehabilitation centres for people who are disabled so we we can work them back into the main workforce stream, because many of the people are not able to go back to the type of employment that they were employed in previously. I think Ontario has been able to do this quite well because they've been able to set up, from what I understand, rehabilitation centres where they retrain people to make them able to get back into the workforce. Just where and what stage are we in Manitoba at the present time? Are we just 1421

Friday, 6 March 1981 using the Rehab. Centre here in the City of Winnipeg at the Health Sciences Centre or are we anticipating setting up centres at various parts of the province? it might be better if we could take these people away from the environment where they were and set them out into nice areas where we can set up the type of workshop where we could rehabilitate them. Some people may not be able to go back to the type of work that they were involved in. What kind of training programs have we got at the present time?

What is the Board itself thinking, and the Minister, with respect to setting up of rehab centres here in Manitoba? MR. MacMASTER: Well, I don't know at this moment the total need for the word rehab centres. I have said just in the last-half hour that rehabilitation is a pretty high priority with myself. I have never kept it a secret; I've been talking about it for many years. The Lampe Committee is aware of that being a pretty strong personal desire of myself that better rehab services be provided to injured people in the Province of Manitoba.

I have reason to believe that the Lampe Committee will be dealing with that issue pretty reasonably. MR. JENKINS: Has the Board itself done a study of the rehab ilitative services such as they have in Ontario, with the thought maybe of - if there were places available where we could send some of our workers that were injured for rehabilitative services, if there were places available in the Ontario system MR. MacMASTER: I kn ow that our Board is certainl y aware of what facilities and what opportunities are available for injured workers in other provinces.

I suspect that they think that they're reasonably satisfied with what they have in place now in Manitoba. I suspect that, by practise, because the last twenty some-odd years I've been involved, they have been updating them a little bit, but no great dramatic change in rehabilitation services in the Province of Manitoba. Again, I'm sort of pleased with myself I guess, that the Lampe Committee was established and that I certainly made the message loud and clear that I have a little more than passing concern in the rehabilitation systems that are in place. MR. JENKINS: Thank you Mr. Chairman.

Has the Minister met with the Injured Workers Associat ion? I believe that they were requesting that there be some financial supp or t for this ass ociation from the Department of Labour. Now, I'm not asking the Minister to declare a policy or anything, but has this request been made of the department? They seem to be having difficulty since their only sustaining funds it seems at the present time are from memberships and a small grant that they've received.

From what I understand, they're finding it very difficult to carry on their organization, and I just wondered if they had been in touch with the Minister on this problem. MR. MacMASTER: I've met with the In jur ed Workers Association on different occasions. I think at one particular time, and I'm guessing that it was a year-and-a-half, two years ago, they did in fact ask for financial assistance and it was declined at that time. I think I've displayed a little more patience, if you wish, with that particular organization than my predecessor of five or six years ago.

As the amusing story goes, the difficulties he had with some of that particular group in his office - and we sort of smile in retrospect when we remember the difficulties he had. The organization in question has been talking to governments of all stripes in this province for I don't know how many years . They made some pretty strong representations to the Lampe Committee and that's really all I can say about that particular association at this moment. MR.

JENKINS: Has there been any research by the Board into lost time being avoided by companies paying full wages to employees to have them sit around, rather than go on compensation in order to avoid having their premiums raised? it's a problem. I know it happens. it happened where I worked at one time. I don't know how it is now, because I haven't been there tor a while, but it was a problem. Employers thought that rather than have workers go on compensation, they would rather have them at work, than being paid on compensation.

I blame the employee just as much, because it takes two to tango in that sort of deal, but I just wonder if this sort of a practise is still going on and whether the Board is lookin g into that and has made any research to see if that this sort of practice is not on the rise, but is being discontinued. MR. MacMASTER: I don't know that they're doing any research into it. I know that it was a fairly substantial problem that I was involved in myself many years ago. I can't say 100 percent that it's not taking place, particularly in the northern mining communities.

I know it's nothing like it was 15 years ago, and by and large, I think the practise has ceased; now you can always find an exception or two to that. As union leaders we sometimes had difficulties with our members, company employees, telling us in no uncertain terms what to do. They were quite satisfied to be doing what they were doing. They were happier to be where they were.

They were convinced they were better off where they were and they sort of told us where to go, so it was quite an edu cation pr ogram that we had to go through; education process with our executive and our union stewards to try and get the message across that the person in fact, wasn't doing himself a favour or really the company a favour, by being there. I don't believe it's a widespread practise anymore.

There may be occasions where it takes place and it's sometimes a little difficult with the employee who dogmatically says, this is my life, my business, keep your nose out of it, sort of thing, and sometimes much more harshly. MR. JENKINS: Yes, I agree with the Minister. This is one of the problems that we had in the past and quite true. The unfortunate thing is that sometimes that injury, by the fact that it was not reported in that way, later led to complications that made it very difficult for the person to get compensation and that is the reason that I asked the question.

I hope that the practise is pra ctically vanished. However, I wouldn't swear that it has, but nevertheless if the Minister says he thinks there is less of it going on, let's hope that he is right. 1422

Friday, 6 March 1981 There are some other questions that I have that are not dealing with Workers Compensation. They were with others that kind of slipped my mind at the time and I just want to throw them in at this time. Ho w close do es the department work with the Winnipeg Technical Vocational High School and the Composite High School here in the Province of Manitoba in recruitment of young people into the apprenticeship system? MR. MacMASTER: I know that our apprenticeship people are working very closely with all the colleges and schools, the Department of Education and the entire system.

I can't tell the member just how close, but I know that in the last few years we've been advocating a great deal of that. I've been on a bit of a kick, and a lot of the department now is getting on it, where we're trying to get the message out that university isn't the only way to go, tha t to be a tr adesman is a very professional, credible way of life. Maybe it's easy for me, because I was one myself, but I just believe that very strongly.

I really also bel.ieve that the whole future of our country depends on us educating people to the fact that if little Johnny wants to be a pipefitter, that's a da mned good pr ofes sion. lt shouldn't be frowned on by the neighbours. I guess there's as much education to do with the parents as there is with the kids. You walk around, you don't hear too many people saying that my son is going to be an electrician or my daughter is going to be a painter, but you sure hear a lot of people bragging about little Johnny is going to univ ersity - doesn't really know what he's going to be but he's going to university.

I don't think that's absolutely, necessarily the way that society has to go. When you look at what's happening in our countr y with the major massive developments that are going to be taking place in the near future, our country depends on it. Ifs a heck of a good way of life for young people to be encouraged to get into it. MR.

JENKINS: Yes, I agree with the Minister; that was one of the problems that we had when I was on the Winnip eg School Boa rd , was to get the recruitment of young people to go to the Winnipeg Technical Vocational High School. lt unfortunately seemed to have a bad reputation, that that was where people who couldn't make in the general academic stream had to go. But that is not the case because we turned out some very excellent students out of the Winn ipeg Technical Vocat ional High School. We turned out some very excellent students out of the R. B. Russ ell, which was a juni or vocational high school.

I just wonder, in the main, where do we get our recruits for the apprenticeship programs in Manitoba? Are they in the main from technical vocational schools, composite high schools or are they from the general academic schools, or if there has been any research into that? If the Minister doesn't have it available, I would be quite happy to have him give me that later on. MR. MacMASTER: Certainly the technical schools are great advocators of it and the more people are made aware of what they are and what they prepare you for. there are more people coming to them.

But I think we're going to see - I guess I'm just a believer in my own philosophy but you're going to see more parents encouraging their young people to go that route. So it's a combination of a lot of areas now but certainly the technical schools are being just exactly what they are, advocators of that, and the more people become aware of what's available there and what future those young people have, the more people naturally are going into the trades. MR. JENKINS: That's quite true, Mr .

Chairman, and I think that school boards, not only just the Minister, but Boards of Education have to be great advocators of technical and vocational education because I think that is a field that we have neglected.

I know that the costs of these types of schools are more expensive than the ordinary straight academic stream but if I can give you an example, I remember when I was a member of the Board of Education of the City of Winnipeg, that we visited technical and vocational schools in Eastern Canada, the Eastern United States and the City of Buffalo, which was at that time about the size of metopolitan Winnipeg with 12 ... MR. MacMASTER: That was before the Sabr es and Gil Perreault. MR.

JENKINS: Before the Sabres, yes. lt had 12 senior high schools and of the 12 senior high schools, six were technical-vocational senior high schools. The boys and girls that went there, many of them while they didn't go into the trades, they went on from there to university, especially in the chemical industry and they got very good grounding in those schools in order to carry on and go into university. I believe the City of Toronto also does the same thing with its senior technical-vocational schools, which has a five-year program as an entrance to university in the technical industries.

So I agree with the Minister, it is not a type of course for those who can't make it in the academic stream; there are some very good students that go there. My two boys went to the Winnipeg Technical Vocational School. They also subsequently went to Red River Community College and graduated in the technology. So I think that it's a good course; it's one that I believed in and it's one that I advocated and I still advocate; I think it's a very good course.

Speaking about incentives, are there - and these are not incentiv es just for the women in the workf orce - are there any incentives to the apprentices going into the program , financial incentiv es from the pr ovince in the field of apprenticeship training? I know there used to be at one time. I just wonder if it's still being carried on. MR. MacMASTER: I'd rather not guess at it; I just don't know. MR. JENKINS: Well, if the Minister could find that out and he can let me know at a later time. That, Mr. Chairman, pretty well sums up what I have to say about the Workers Compensation.

I hope that the report will soon be available. I'm sure that he's looking forward to receiving it; I know I am. I'm sure the Member for Churchill is looking forward to receiving the report. I want to thank the Minister for the answers that we received. I think we've had a fairly good discussion of his Es timates. We're not always satisfied with the answers that we receive but then 14 23

Friday, 6 March 1981 that's part and pa rcel of the whole pr ocess of examining the Estimates in any department. MR. MacMASTER: I'm not always happy with the questions. MR. JENKINS: The Minister says he's not happy with the questions. MR. MacMASTER: Not always. MR. JENKINS: That's fair ball; I think it's true. I just want to raise one other issue with the Minister. I hope that his department is going to look into - he's promised that they would - look into seeing if these young people who are working have adequate insurance coverage.

I'm talking about the young boys and girls who are working as entrepreneurs on their own. I hope that the Mi nister and his department will look into and see that these young people do have adequate insurance coverage in case they are injured. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (1)(a) - pass. The Member for ChurchilL MR. COWAN: Just aa a side note. If possible, the Minister should have told us at the beginning that he wasn't always satisfied with the questions and perhaps we could have done something about it, although I doubt it, seriously.

I'd like to talk a bit about Workers Compensation and have been waiting to do so throughout the Estimates, having been given an indication at the beginning that this was the proper area in which to discuss the matter. I'd like to talk first about the injured workers association. lt's an association that we are all familiar with and when I say we, I think I mean every individual member of this Legislature has at one time or another had some contact with that group and representatives of that group.

I think I could also say without fear of much contradiction that probably every Member of Parliament and every municipal officer from time to time has had contact with them; they're a very active group and a very dedicated group and bring forward, among many ideas, some very good ideas from time to time. One of the representations which has been made to me consistently by representatives of that group is in respect to a statement that was made by the then Labour critic under the previous administration.

The Honourable Member for Fort Garry was at that time Labour critic and he had indicated when discussing this matter, I believe in Estimates, to the Honourable Mem ber for Transcona, who was the n Labour Min ister, that this gr oup should receiv e some recognition. There was an implication; perhaps I should rephrase that. There was an

interpretation by represertiatives of the Injured Workers Association that that meant monetary recognition by government and they have asked me on numerous occasions to bring this matter to the attention of the Minister. I believe we have in the past and I that it's probably appropriate at this time to ask him if he has considered that option on the part of the government and if so, if he can provide us with any update as to his thoughts in respect to providing some financial funding for the Injured Workers Association to allow them to continue on in their efforts. MR.

MacMASTER: Mo netary assistance has not been considered. MR. COWAN: Well, perhaps the Minister could be more explicit in his comments. Does that mean that they are not going to consider it? Does that mean that it is out of the question right from the start, or does tha t mean th at there is an option for consideration of the same and that the Minister is willing to take that back to his department and to his colleagues? MR. MacMASTER: I'm always prepared to receive justification for assistance from my department.

I have not been satisfied yet, that in any conversations that I've had with the Injured Workers Association that justification is there at the moment. MR. COWAN: Well perhaps the Mi nister can provide us with some insight as to how he perceives the function of the Injured Workers Association with respect to his own portfolio.

I'm not asking him to give us a wide ran ging treatise on the Injured Workers Associat ion, but does he perceive it to be playing a useful role in providing information to the government and provi ding representation to the government in acting as a lobby group and in that way as a pressure group on the government, regardless of their political stripe?

Because as the Minister indicated, it does not matter which political party has the government at the time, the Injured Workers Association is going to make their repres enta tio ns just as st ringently and just as strongly as they have in the past and will in the future. Perhaps he could provide us with some of his own observations on what role that group plays, because that would have an important effect on whether or not he would see justification for funding to be an option to them. MR. MacMASTER: I suppose my rationale is very similar to previous Ministers of Labour for years in the province.

I'm quite happy to receive the Injured Workers Associat ion, listen to their presentations, take from it, what I deem as possible to review and look at. I have arranged numerous appointments for individuals associated with that association with the Com pensation Board, to review their cases , to present their cases, and that really at this moment is the limitation that I see as the role of that particular organization. MR.

COWAN: The Minister perceives it to be a self financing organization which has taken upon itself the resp onsibility of lobbying different Minis ters, different government offials, different elected officials and other persons on behalf of individual members. Is that a correct analysis? The Minister indicates that it is. I'm not so certain that those remarks won't be taken by the ass ociation in the futur e to be interpreted as a commitment to funding, although I can assure him that they're not intended in that way. But it is a question that they'd asked me to bring forward on their behalf and I have done that.

Perhaps in the future they will be bringing it forward to a government of a different stripe who will have to deal with that problem, make those decisions at that time, as to whether or not they find that request to be a justifiable request. I think the record should be clear on that. 14 24

Friday, 6 March 1981 In regards to Workers Compensa tion, we have heard a great deal of discussion lately about the acces sibili ty of records by the emplo yees who are appear ing before the Compensation Board . by persons repres enting those emp loyees, and there seems to be some difficulty in gaining accessi bility to records that are kept by the Workers Compensation Board on behalf of - that's the wrong phrase, excuse me are kept by the Workers Com pensat ion Board on cases which they are actively considering or inactively; not actively conside ring.

I would ask the Minis ter if he can provide us with a policy statement as to what records are accessible to a worker, what records are not accessible to a worker and if he can provide some inside as to why those decisions have been taken? MR. MacMASTER: It has been a standard practice across our country that the records are, in fact, confidential.

Boards in all jurisdictions will argue it for a variety of reasons, but one of them - they feel that the doctor's opinion will not be as candid, open and as honest if they know that it's going to be reviewed in relationship to the intri cacies that take place when you're trying to establish a compensation form. Whether that is valid or not .. I kno w there was just recently a court ruling in, I'm guessing, I think it was British Colum bia, for a particu lar in di vidual, on a particular set of circums tances, where they felt that the indi vidual should be permit ted to look at his file.

I don't know whether that will, and I can 't remember whether it was British Co lum bia, be received in that jurisdiction as meaning that all files in the future are open. I do know that the Lamp e Commis sion was presented with that

part icular prob lem . I expect, kn owing the three individuals involved in that commission, that they'll deal with the majority of problems that they are presented with, and it's going to be interesting to see what their viewpoint on that is. MR.

COWAN: I'd like to discuss this in a bit more detail with the Min ister because it is an area of some concern and I think the Minis ter hit the nail on the head, if I can use a colloquial, when he said that the reason the records are confidential and the reports are confidential is that doctors - and 1 don't mean to single them out - other persons, that would be making representation to the Board would not be as candid, open and honest.

I think those were his words; cand id, open and honest; in respect to providing opinions, if they felt that there would be an opportunity in the future for those opinions to be reviewed by the in di vidual who was making the appeal or making repres entation to the Worker s Comp ensation Board for a compensable claim. I think that is a problem.

I think that the doctors should be candid, open and honest and I think that the doctors have a cl ient-patient re lations hip, a doctor-patient rela tionship, a do ctor-client relationship with their patients, and that when they say some thing to the patient in respect to their injury. in respect to what they are going to say before the Workers Comp ensation Bo ard , they should be willing to say that to the Compensation Board as well. There is only one way to check that.

There are only two people that are privy to that information, one is the doctor and the other is the patient, and I would hope that the patient would be able to check what the doctor is saying behind the closed . that can't happen because the patient can't get access to the doctor's remarks that are made at the hearings. I would ask the Mi nister if he agrees with that assessment, and if he does agree with that assessment, is he willing to do something about it? MR. MacMASTER: I th ink you ma y find , in prefacing the remarks I'm not saying that is a closed file, no pun meant, sort of a situation in my mind.

It's something that I' ve been aware of for a long time and have mixed opinions on. But there is a very real possi bil ity that after hearing th ose types of presentations, and I know in fact the same case that the member has presented, maybe he prepared the presentation for someone who made that to the Lampe Commit tee, but those types of words were presented to the Lampe Committee when they were travelling through the Province of Manitoba. I think in fairness to them, we should let them see - on an overall basis, they have reviewed the entire system pretty th oroughly.

They ma y have some pr etty revolutionary sort of recommendations to make and that may be one of them. I guess in answer to the question, if it is, I am prepared to deal with it. MR. COWAN: Well, just to assure the Min ister, I don't recall having written any representations for that comm ittee, so I don't beli eve that was the case. However, I may have had discussions with people who were making representation to that comm ittee, not about their repres entation but about the general problem.

But I can assur e him that the problem is a grassroots problem that has been brought to my attention by numerous persons who have had to deal with Work ers Compensation Boards and have found this to be an impediment to what they believe to be their right to full information. If we can use the term that's band ied about too much, freed om of information , or perhaps it's no t bandied about enoug h, I don't know. But the fact, is this is certainly an area wh ere they do not have freed om of. information and yet the in formation that is being compiled is about them.

There is no reason for them not to have freedom of that information and access to that information. So it's an area that I believe demands attention. I don't know what the commi ttee is going to say on it; I don't know if the Mi nister kno ws what the committee is going to say on it. However, regardless of what the comm ittee has to say on it, the Minis ter has to make a decision. If the comm ittee does not deal with the problem at all, then the Minis ter has to make a decision whether or not he wants to init iate action.

If the committe e does deal with the situation and they say that this is fine, that in fact the system is working and it is an appropriate syst em, then the Min ister has to determine whether or not he wants to accept that recommendation. If they make the rev oluti onary recommendation which would be that this system is not working, that people should have more access to information - and I use revolutionary because that's the word the Mini ster used - then he will have to make a decision as to whether or not to act on that decision.

So the fact is that the decision is going to boil down to the Min ister in the end, no matter what the comm ittee says. 14 25

Friday, 6 March 1981 I would be somewhat hesitant to ask the Minister's opinion on this if that committee was still in the process of compiling their report and developing their recommendations, because that could definitely steer the results of their recommendations. lt could definitely have an impact on their recommendations. However, that report is in; it's before the printers and therefore any remarks that are made today at this time will have no impact on the recommendations of the report. They have been decided; they have been discussed and they have been made.

Further to that, the Minister says that he is going to deal with it. Actually, he said if the committee makes a recommendation he's going to deal with it, but I would suggest to him he's going to have to deal with it no matter what because it's a problem. I would like to know from the Minister, because he says he is of a mixed opinion on this subject, what benefits he sees to opening the books more, to opening the records more, and what disadvantages he sees outside of that which he had suggested was a disadvantage earlier and that was in respect to the candidness of persons making reports to board? MR.

MacMASTER: Mr. Cha irman, I use the Minister's rights in this particular case and say I'll deal with that at the appropria te time and I don't think right today is the day to debate the pros and cons of that and try and boil it down to a decision. MR. COWAN: I think we may have to have that discussion again and I know I can't force the Minister to answer the questions and I accept that he does have a prerogative not to answer the questions if he so desires, but I would wish we had been able to get more answers to that.

On the question of assessability of records and the Workers Comp ensa tion, are there any outside agencies or persons not directly related to the case and not empowered by an individual who has a case before the board, who can gain access to the records of the Workers Compensation Board? MR. MacMASTER: I don't think so. MR.

COWAN: I did n't think so either but I'm certain the Minister is aware, or if he is not aware he should be made aware now, that there is a group and I don't have my detailed information available to me right now, but I believe it is called Equifax, which has sent out circulars to employers suggesting that they have access to Workers Compensation records on employees. Let me explain what I remember that correspondence to say and to assure the Minister that I think I can get a copy of it if I don't have a copy available now.

But what it says - it's a circular to employers - and it says that the employers, by subscribing to this service, will be able to have information given on specific employees for which they request information respecting their time off work, respecting any claims they have made to Workers Compensation in the past. The implication is, because it was sent to Manitoba employers, that it is a Canadian service although I'm not certain whether that group operates out of here or the States.

I would ask the Min ister if this situation has been brought to his attention and if so, what action he has taken in respect to in vestigating where that information is coming from? MR. MacMASTER: lt has never been brought to my attention, Mr . Chairman. MR.

COWAN: Well, having brought the matter now to the Minister's attention, I'd ask him if he could check with his department and check with other Compensation Boards across the country to see in fact if they have experienc ed any difficulties in respect to the leakage of information and to see if they can come up with some analysis as how this firm is able to provide this kind of information.

Further to that, I will try get a copy of the circular to the Mi nister ao that he can have that before him when he makes those investigations. lt is an area of some concern and as the Min ister says, he's of mixed opinion on the accessibility of information to the employee, but I'm certain that he is not of a mixed opin ion on the accessibility of information originating from Workers Compensation cases to other employers or to persons outside of the actual case and that this an area of serious concern in that respect.

I don't expect the Min ister to have the information before him now, but I would hope that he would be able to provide a list in the near future of those industria l dis eases which are consid ered to be compensable industrial dis eases by the Workers Compensation Board and if he can provide some statistical background as to how many cases in each area have been accepted by the Board and how many cases have been rejected by the Board. We can get the accepted figures fairly easily from annual reports, although they don't break them down into specific diseases.

They do in certain instances but the breakdown in the reports does not go far enough to provide the detail which we need. However, what we don't get is the number and the types of cases which are not accepted, and I think that's important. Now I don't expect the Mini ster to have tha t information before him now; I hope he can transmit to me by correspondence at a later date, so that we can have it for discussions in the future. But I would ask the Minister now if he can indicate how it is the Board decides whether or not a disease which is suggested to be industrially related will in fact be compensated?

What criteria do they use to extend whatever list exists now to accommodate new information, to accommoda te new data and to accommodate new cases that come forward to it? MR. MacMASTER: I think a lot of it relates to experiences in other jurisdictions; a lot of it relates to established documents that do in fact verify that something can and should be consi de red compensable. I think a lot of it, unfortunately, relates to past tense, of those who have had problems and it's been established that in fact it was di rectly industrially related. MR.

COWAN: If there were an industrial disease that was new to the Board and representation was made to the Board for compensation for that disease, they would do a literature search of what had happened in other provinces? They would do a literat ure search of what happened in our own province and then using that information, they would attempt to determine whether or not there was justification for a decision on their part to include that in their list of compensable diseases and in fact 1426

Friday, 6 March 1981 to compensate those individuals that made the case to them. Is that the proper analysis? The Minister indicates that that is. The problem with that system is that the individual who is making the case each time must do so on an ad hoc basis. In other words, it is up to the individual worker to prove the case. Now, the Board will do the research but the fact is that the individual worker must first make representation to the Board that he or she believes that they have a compensable disease, and that does involve a lot of time and a lot of effort and a lot of work.

That's one of the areas, by the way, where the Injured Workers Association can provide some great assistance, but that's an aside, as well as the labour organizations. I don't mean to belittle the effort of the di fferent organiza tions that have made represe ntation on behalf of workers to the Board in the past; they all have an important role to play.

But I think the department has an important role to play as well, and that role is to try to get one step ahead on the situation and start to develop a list of diseases which they believe to be compensable and then make that list known, because as the Minister knows, we are in an area now where the advancing technology and advancing knowledge is of such a nature that we are going to see more and more of these sorts of cases come forward, and if the Board has to decide on every instance in an ad hoc way, they are going to get bogged down in trying to make that decision.

So, we'd like to see something more positive in that respect. · I noticed the hour is fast approaching 12:30 and I don't mean to prolong the Estimates, although we would like to make a couple of concluding remarks. But I wanted the Minister to know and to give him this assurance, that we don't mean to prolong the Estimates unnecessarily but we did want to talk in some detail about Workers Compensation because we believe that it is an area of great concern to the Min ister. He's indicated in the past that he's very concerned about it and it is one area where I think we get the most calls as individual MLAs.

I don't know about the Minister but I know I get more calls about Workers Compensation cases than about any other specific area. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The hour of 12:30 having arrived, Committee rise for Private Members' Hour. SUPPL V - CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS AND ENVIRONMENT MR. CHAIRMAN , Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This Committee will come to order. I would direct the honourable members' attention to Page 31 of the Ma in Est imates, Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment, Resolution 38, Clause 3. Corporate Affairs, Item (aX1) Salaries - pass - the Honourable Minister. HON.

GARY FILMON (River Height s): Mr. Chairman, if I may, I did give opening remarks on the Corporate Affairs area in my opening statement, but in the House on Tuesday, I believe it was, or Wednesday. I was asked a question about whether or not the Astra Trust Company and the ReMor Mana gement In vest ment Corporation have been registered in the Province of Manitoba. I stated at that time that I did not believe they had been and that I would look into the matter and bring it forward with my Estimates, so I have the information.

The Astra Trust Company was incorporated under federal law and of course, these federal corporations are automatically required to ensure public deposits under The Canada Deposit Insurance Act. Federal trust companies have the fundamental right to carry on business in any province. However, if they had wished to come into Ma nitoba , they would be required to be registered under Manitoba law. No application for Manitoba registration was received by the Corporations Branch.

With respect to ReMor Ma nagement Investment Corporation, it appears that this company was involved in many types of activities and had they sought to solicit public funds or issue securities in Manitoba, they would have been subject to review and su pervision of the Secur ities Commi ssi on. Similarly, if they had wished to engage in mortgage brokerage activity, they would have been required to be registered under The Mo rtgage Brok ers and Dealers Act and for the purpose of such registration, their activities would have been closely scrutinized.

They did not endeavour to expand their activities in Ma nitoba and ther efore are not regist ered in Manit oba. There's no record of any enqu iry regarding registration in the records of the Registrar of the Mo rtgage Brok ers or the Securities Commi ssi on. In 19 77, the Corporations Br anch received an enquiry as to the availability of the name "ReM or", the name was reserved for that company for a period of five years. However they did not proceed with a registration application. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1) - pass; (2) - pass; (a) - pass; (

b) Insurance Branch,

(1) Salaries - pass; (2) - pass; (b) - pass; (

c) Securities Commission,

(1) Salaries - pass - the Hono urable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure if this is the precise area, but I wanted to raise a couple of questions with the Minister. One is that we had a problem a year or two ago, with travel agent companies or corporations going bankrupt and this as you will recall caused some considerable inconvenience to Ma nitoba citizens, wherein one particular case, the travel agency went bankrupt and I think people were stranded and/or lost the amount of money that they had invested in their holidays. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please.

I think, to the Ho nourable Mem ber for Elmwood, this was discuss ed under The Consum er Protection Act, under Item 2, Consumer Affairs, as of yesterday. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I assume that the Securities Commission has as a responsibility, the checking of corporations or should have the checking of corporations, Manitoba companies that are establishd, to see that they are properly financed and to see that they meet certain minimal standards.

Now I think that's more than corporate - it is or course consumer protection, but I also believe that the Securities Commission is the organiz ation and 1427

Friday, 6 March 1981 the proper heading under which the establishment of those companies and their monitoring and their actions are considered. Presumably that is the intent of this particular Commission, oth erwise an ybody can set up a company and do whatever they like and we'll then worry about consumer protection, so I think it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. So I want to just say to the Minister . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Mini ster on a point of order. MR.

JORGENSON: My honourable friend presents a plausible argument, however, last night at the insistence of the Leader of the Op position, that matter was allowed for dis cussion unde r the preceeding item, and my honourable friends are not going to have it both ways. You're going to discuss it under one item or the other. And it was discussed last night. Questions were asked, similar to what my honourable friend is asking right now and those questions were answered.

And I think, sir, that we have simply got to determine what item certain matter s are going to di scu ssed and having determined that, then stick to that item, and having passed that item, then you go on to another one. That item was discussed last night and answers were provided to the very questions that my honourable friend is asking right now. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Johns on a point of order. MR. CHERNIACK: Yes, Mr . Chairman, just on the point of order.

What was discussed last night by the Leader of the Opposition and not on his insistence, but on the basis that is was properly before us, was the question of the deposits that have been left with furniture companies which had become bankrupt The point I believe that the honourable member wishes to discus s is the role of the Secur ities Commission, its investigatory and licensing powers. And I too want to discuss it, not in relation to travel agencies, but in relation to another aspe ct of consumer protection. Now it may well be, Mr .

Chairman, that we have interlo ckin g and over lapping areas, but the honourable member who was not here last night - the Honourable Member for Elmwood who was not here last night - neverthless plans to discuss this under the role of Securities Commission. And I who was here last night, also want to discuss the role of the Securities Commi ssion in that aspect of consumer protection where it has jurisdiction. And I submit, Mr . Chairman, that it's a proper case to do it. MR. CHAIRMAN: I can see nothing wrong that we follow that type of questioning.

The only thing that I suggested to the Honourable Member for Elmwood, was that the particular questioning that I could see was going to happen had been thoroughly discussed yesterday -(Int erjection)- On the trave

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-5-32
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 5th hansardpdf 32.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	c6d92b0f3b1571966ac0cd5110f371a1b335fc72

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