Time: 8:00 p. m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 24 March, 1980 CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION MR . CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (V irden): Call the committee to order. We 're on 9. (b) (l) . The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A. R. (P ete) ADAM (S te. Rose): Yes, Mr. Chairman, I think in regards to licencing when a person loses his licence , his privileges, and has a restricted licence .

Now I know that this was probably a previous Minister, maybe a Minister at the time when we were in government , I'm not sure if the Minister could explain how much flexibility is there in the • • • We have a case in our area where a fellow was charged three times, I think it wa s, for impaired driving. MR . ORCHARD: How long ago Pete; how many years; what time span? MR. ADAM: Well it was prior to 19 77. And the last time his licence was suspended for five years.

Now the member has got a restricted licence now for driving a big semitrailer, working for a transportation company , and he has been two years without - he 's obviously solved his drinking problem entirely and he has been two years now with a very good record. There seems to be no flexibility there. I' m ju st wondering whether or not, does the regsitrar • • • He tried to have his case reviewed and he was refused. They would not consider his applica ­ tion for a reduction in the five-year suspension. MR.

ORCHARD: The five-year suspension is a statutory suspension which you only get if you have incurred two, I believe it is, two criminal code offences for driving while impaired within a five-year period. This chap would have had , as you say , three, eh? MR . ADAM: Well, I think that would be prior to that • • • MR . ORCHARD: And that suspension is statutory and there are no appeals to that . He 's gone as far as he can go in that he 's got a working permit that al lows him to continue gainful employment as a truck driver.

But in terms of getting driving privileges reinstated to the extent that he could operate his private car , that 's not possible with a five-year suspension, as I understand it. MR . ADAM: Yes, you know, the problem is there that if a person is, say, living 20 miles from his work or even less, how can he get to his work? Say , he lives five, ten miles out of town? MR. ORCHARD: Well , has this chap got a condit ional licence to drive to and from his place of employment? MR . ADAM: I am not sure on that specific point , whether he can drive or not to his place of employment. I ju st brought that up as an example .

There should be some flexibility, in my opinion, because if this fellow obtained a med­ ical certificate from his doctor that he no longer has a drinking problem, it seems to me that his case should be able to be reviewed again on the basis of the past two years of you know, the man was sick; an alcoholic is a disease, it is a sickness, and once you are cured of that disease the way we are looking at it now is that there is a minimum of five years before you are cured of an alco­ holic , that is what we are looking at.

I think that there are some cases here that there should be some flexibility where you can look at it, where they can be reviewed again. - 1499 -

Monday , 24 March, 1980 I am not saying that he can obtain his full driving privileges; I am saying that there should be some mechanism that the man can plead his case if he has supporting evidence from doctors to show that he is no longer having a drinking problem. By the way , he can drive wi th a big semi to wherever he wants to go , and , you know, he is not supposed to but he coul d. I would wish that was looked at .

Another instance is a similar case where a person loses his driving privileges and when he comes to reapply for a licence he has to take a driver's test and there are some people that have problems with literacy ; they are unable to read , but becau se of this they are discriminated again st. There is no way that they can come in and take the test. They are just afraid to go because they have to take an oral test, a written test, and they are unable to do it.

I know we go down the highway , we go down the streets, you see all kinds of signs now of when to walk, they don 't even put wal k, they put a little man walking across , they show little pictures now. They don't say , Deer Crossing the Road , they put a pictu re of a deer going across a highway where there is. --( Interjection)- - Well , the members are laughing but you know if he couldn 't read and he was in that kind of a situation, he wouldn 't be laughing .

He would be laughin g on the other side of this mouth or the other side of his face because there are people , and there are a lot of people, that are unable to go back and get a licence, not because of their own faul t, it is because they didn 't have the opportunity to go to school , as probably the Member for Portage has or the Member for Arthur. You know , if they ca re to laugh at people who have not had the same opportunity as they have had , well that is their prerogative. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Mil'\rledosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, on a point of or der.

I don 't think they were laughing at anyb ody. They were making a comment from the side and I think the Member for Ste. Rose has some valid points, but he is getting down into individual ca ses. If he wants to plead an individual ca se, he knows very well he can go to the Minister or go to the Motor Vehicle Branch and plead that ca se, and I don't think this is a forum to plead individual ca ses.

If he wants to gener­ alize on the suspension of driver's licence I think that is fine and dandy , because there are some grey areas and I agree with him on certain points but I don •t think he should get into individual cases and make a point of criticizing the members on this side for laughin g at him, because they weren 't. MR. CHAIRMAN: I am not su re the Member for Minnedosa has a point of order, but I wo uld direct all members if their remarks would be directed to the Chair we would cut down some of this back and forth chatter. MR . ADAM: Well , I was speakin g to the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: No, you weren 't.

The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose was talkin g with • • . MR. ADAM: Well , I could hear this laughter in the background when I brought up a certain case • MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: • where people have difficulty writing these tests or going in and taking this test, and I am just wondering if there isn't some other way that these people can take the test, becau se they are completely barred from going and taking this test because they are illiterate . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR . ORCHARD: Well , Mr.

Chairman , there are oral driver's tests available for people who are not conversant or read well enoug h. - 1500 -

lt>nday, 24 March , 1980 MR. ADAM: Yes, I would like to ask the Minister on the licensing plans for reciprocity of licensing , also the expanded dealer plates, could the Minister give us some particulars on what is happeni ng? MR . ORCHARD: Well , Mr.

Chairman, in terms of the reciprocity, it was agreed at the First Ministers' Conference that they attempt to reduce unnecessary regulation and over-regulation wherever possible, and the trucking industry was chosen as one indus try which could very well fit the bill, because we have ten provincial jurisdictions plus two territorial jurisdictions, all of whom may have somewhat different regulations in terms of such things as vehicle length, etc. , etc., weights and what not . They also have a num ber of different licensing agreements across the country .

The idea in developing a uni form licensing system is an effort to make the truck­ ing industry less subject to some of the dual licensing ; for instance, to free up the use and availability of the trucking industry's equipment for use in jurisdic­ tions in which they are licensed to carry on the business of freighting .

We have , on a tentative basis, agreed amongst the ten provincial provinces and the two territories to meet in September of this year to discuss the implementation of a Canada-wide reciprocity agreement involving all ten provinces and the two territo­ ries, and that reciprocity agreement will be basis what they call a mileage pro-rate system to establish the distribution of licensing fees to ju risdictions through which a trucking firm may operate. MR . ADAM: I thank the Minister for his answer and his explanation on my first question.

The second question that I had posed to him was the matter of dealer plates, expanded use of dealer plates; could the Minister give us a clarification on what 's happ ening there? MR. ORCHARD: Well , under the dealer plate , as it existed , they could only use the dealer plate for the actu al test driving of a vehicle for the purpose of demonstration for sale and that was causing some difficulties.

For instance, if one of the salesmen, per chan ce, went out and pi cked up. • • Let's say he went to a potential cu stomer's home to pick that person up to give them a test drive and he was involved in an accident on the way to that person's home , you are running into a grey area as to whether the driver wasn 't, in fact , covered and had a legally licensed and insured vehicle .

So , basical ly, some of the changes that were made to the dealer plates was to allow a little more flexibility in the use of dealer plates in the auto dealerships to al low the use of those vehicles by salesmen to pick up cu stomers, etc ., etc . MR. ADAM: The matter of licensing, I believe it comes under this depart­ ment, dealer licenses, does that come under the same? A MEMBER: Yes. MR. ADAM: The raising of the bonding rates has been increased and I believe it has caused some problems for some dealers, some of the smaller deal ers. MR.

ORCHARD: Well , basica lly , the dealer bond , I believe, was at $5 ,000 and that dealer bond has been increased to $15 ,000, and there are some pretty persuasive arguements for having it increased , particularly when you take into cons ideration the value of today 's automobile s. It doesn't take too much of an au tomobile • • • As a matter of fact , there are very few, I suppose , new auto­ mobiles that are worth less than $5 ,000, so a $5 ,000 bond wa s, by and large , ineffectual in dealing with new car sales. The used car is, of cou rse, a different st ory . You'v e got a whole range of values there.

So that was one of the reasons for increasing the bond from $5 , OOO to $15 , OOO , was in an effort to provide a little more per vehicle coverage, plus take in the possible situation of a mul tiple claim agai nst the dealership, where $5,000 would probably not cover one , let alone if there were two or three claims . And at the same time, the salesman bond was dropped . It was , I think , $1 .

OOO and it was dropped because a $1 ,000 bond has never been claimed on, No. (1) and No. (2) was a lot of t�ouble to get the bond for $1 ,000 and if there was a claim it probably wouldn 't cover the value of the claim if it was over $1 ,000.00. - 1501 -

Monday , 24 March , 1980 MR . ADAM: Does the Minister have how many numbers of dealers had to go out becau se of this, to close? MR . ORCHARD: We are not awa re of any dealerships that had to close. MR. ADAM: I' m referring to deal ers who sell trailers primariliy. There could be an exception here. For an automotive dealer, that 's a different thing. You know if you sell one car it's almost $10 ,000 or going close to it anyway . But I' m referring to the fellow that sells trailers, not mobile trailers, not the house trailers that have their own motors, I' m referring to a pul l-type trailer.

There's a dealer in our town that had to relinquish his dealership because of this change . He is no longer in business. So he 's been put out of business with this particular change . Probably selling trailers that were worth maybe $1 ,500 and a coup le of thousand dollars a piece, to load horses, these Ponys that they haul around , that kind of a trailer, but he 's been put out of business because of this change and it seems to me that there could have been some exceptions made here for this kind of a dealership.

As a result of the increase from $5, 000 to $15, 000 he wasn •t able to swing the bonding requirements or whatever it was and so he just went out of business . MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chai rman , I sympathize with the unfortunate circumstances that the Member for Ste. Rose has brought to the committee's attention tonight but the difference in bonding costs between $5 ,000 and $15, 000 is a little over $100 and it hasn't been a major impediment to anybody that we have heard from to date. MR . ADAM: It's not the $100 that's the difficulty. endorsement for $15 ,000 ; that 's the problem.

It's not the fee. deterrent; it's that the man has to be worth $15, OOO in order bonded to $15 ,000 .00. He has to have enough assets to cover . It• s to get the The fee is not a to be able to get MR. ORCHARD: In other words, Mr. Chai rman , this particular gentleman 's problem was not in coming up with the $100 additional cost for the bond , it was in fact getting a company to write out a bond on hi m, increasing it from $5, 000 to $15 ,000 .00. MR. ADAM: That's right. That 's where the problem is and it's unfortunate that a fellow was put out of business because of this. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Daup hin.

MR. JIM GAL BRAITH : Mr. Chairman, I'v e just got one comment to make and the Minister covered it pretty well al ready . It's dealin g with interprovincial licencing of trucks and semi trailer trucks. It's been brought to my attention in the Dauphin area that there are many trucks and truckers, some from Manitoba and some from Saskatch ewan , hauling hay out of the Dauphin area to Saskatchewan.

Apparently, they can haul a much higher load and a much wider load in Saskatche wan than they can in Manitoba and it sort of creates a few problems for them and I' m only too pleased to hear you say that you are working on these interprovincial regulations regarding loads and such , and I' m only too pleased to hear you say that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows. MR.

BEN HANUSCHAK : I note that, or at least according to my files and chec king the clerk 's office , the latest Annual Report of the Department of Highways which we have - and when I say which we have I' m referring to the one that was tabled or that ought to be tabled in the House under the provisions of the appropriate legislation - was for the fiscal year ending March 31 , 197 8. I believe that legislation does call for the Minister to table the Annual Report within the first 15 days after the House goes into Session.

Could the Minister indicate when he is prepared to table the most recent Annual Report, and that will be for the fiscal year ending March 31 , 1979, which certainly would assist us in completing our consideration of the Est imates? - 1502 -

Monday , 24 March, 1980 MR. ORCHARD: Well it sh oul d be printed. We had a small difficulty with the printer which delayed its introduc tion to the House beyond the statutory 15-day requirement. MR. HANUSCHAK: It is now approaching 30 days , which is much beyond 15 days , so perhaps we ought to defer the completion of the consideration of the Estimates until such time as we do have the Annual Report before us. Because I really do think, Mr.

Chai!"lllan, that it would be of assistance to us if we had a report indicating the work which the department had done, which I take it is what the report is all about because from reading the letter from the Deputy to the Minist er, it contains the traditional, statistical , and descriptive summaries of highway construc tion, maintenance, and operation as well as the Motor Vehicle Branch activities and the Highway Traffic Board, etc. It may assist the committee in dealing with the Estimates in a more effective manner than we can now by not having the report for the last fiscal year.

Could the Minister indicate when he expects to table the report? MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the report was to be ready on I believe it was the 2lst , and it just has not arrived yet. MR. HANUSCHAK: On the 2lst, that was Friday. The Minister still hasn't answered my question. When does the Minister expect to table the report? MR. ORCHARD: They haven't advised as to how many more days it's going to take. They're scheduling indicated that the 2lst was an approximate delivery date. MR. HANUSCAK: Mr. Chairman, the 2lst went by.

I appreciate the fact that the 22nd and 23 rd were not working days but today ce rtainly was. Now surel y the Minister would have found time to inquire into the date when the report will be available. The House didn't go into Session until 2: 30 this afternoon. Can we expect the report tomorrow? MR. ORCHARD: Possibly. MR. HANUSCAK: Possibly. Well perhaps after the report is tabled tomorrow, that would give us some indication as to the manner in which we ought to proceed with the Estimates. Thank you , Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Recreation, Fitness and Sport. HON.

ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank you , Mr. Chairman. I guess before I speak I have to declare I have a ce rtain vested interest in the topic that the Member for Ste. Rose raised in that I' ve been an automobile dealer and the last time I checked , about a month ago, I still was, giving the time con­ straints of course all the members appreciate we have to put into this particular job.

However , let me say that I would like to just say that the changes made with regard to the dealer bonding as well as the dealer licencing are one which I believe are very positive, not only to the dealers that are involved, but also to the consumers. In this day and age when we are looking at automobiles costing a sub st antial amount of money , and I am talking now about not only cars or pleasure vehicles, I am talking about trucks and other things that can be bought by the consuming pub lic , by the farm population. Very often we approach figures far exceeding the $15,0 00 limit.

The other thing that the members of the Committee sh ould realize is that there are suc h things happening as conversions going on right now , which means that the dealer is responsible for insuring that that particular item that he or she is se lling is clear and free of liens and encumbrance s, and $5,000 wasn't nearly adequate to meet that particular responsibility. So I am glad to see that the Minister has moved in that direction. The other thing is that there was such a wide opinion and wide problem dealing with the use of dealer plates that really the authorities under many of the - 1503 -

M:>nday, 24 March , 1980 circumstances really didn't know where they were at with regard to trying to administrate that particular

section of the Act and the rules and regulations under which it was governed. So I think that both of these moves are pretty positive moves. I think you will find that the consumer is going to be well protected in this particula r instance. The motoring public will and I think it will serve to cut a little bit of the red tape and hopefully reflect on some of the benefits that the dealers will have and pass on to the consuming public in both consumer protection and decrease in the cost of doing business.

The regulations are pretty onerous with the old dealer 's plates, I think it is a pretty positive move and I want to express the ap preciation of the constituency that I represent, basically Steinbach and the auto mobile city, for the moves that they have made with regard to that particular as pect of the Act. MR. CHAIRMAN: 9. (b) (

l) the Member for Rossmere. MR. VI C SCHROEDER: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just on this matter of bonding , I think that is the type of thing that has some good news and some bad news attached to it. I think it is important for the protection of the con sumer that there be something like that and in probably more substantial amounts than there are at present.

On the other hand , I have frequently had complaints from small business people , who are just getting into business , who may well have assets but they don 't have necessarily a track record in that particula r business, who have a great deal of difficulty in getting bonding . They spend an awful lot of time trying to get it.

In the province of Saskat chewan, for instance, the Saskatchewan Government Insurance Corporation is involved in giving out bonds and I would certainly hope that in this province we could consider having the MPIC or some other public corporation get involved in there to alleviate that problem, because I certainly know of specific instances where people were unable to get into businesses because they were una ble to obtain those bonds and I see that as being somewhat unfortunat e. MR. OR CHARD: Mr. Chairman , if I might respond to the Member for Rossmere.

I am informed that MPIC in fact does offer bonding in the province. MR . SCHROEDER: When did they start that? MR. ORCHARD: I am not certain of the date on it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital . MR . D. JAMES WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to follow up the point that my colleag ue from Burrows had raised having to do with the Annual Report of the Department , and I think the Minister was a bit flippant with my col league , really didn 't give very much of an explanation and just said that a report will come some time, perhaps tomorrow . I believe , Mr.

Chairman, that he owes us a more thorough explana tion of the delay involved . After all the Minister is responsible for The Highways Department Act and probably a lot of other Acts as well, and it is a requirement of The Highways Department Act that the Minister shall within 15 days of the commencement of each session table the Annual Report. Now the Minister is clearly in breach of his own Act and perhaps we should ask him what disciplinary action he intends to take against himself and those responsible for not producing the report. So I would ask the Minister, Mr.

Chairman , through you , to give us a much fuller explanation of why this situation has come to pass and why the Minister allowed us to proceed with the consideration of his Estimates without having this very important document before us? MR. OR CHARD: Well , Mr.

Chairman , we had the report, the Annual Report, ready for printing prior to the Session , not too much prior to the Session but nevertheless prior to the Session , and we put out a tender, basis delivery within 15 days of the opening of the Session, and we got no takers on the tender when we offered that kind of a time limit, no one would guarantee delivery by that time, - 1504 -

Monday , 24 March, 1980 and as a consequence we had to take a tender with a somewhat later delivery date. That is an unfortunate situation and I can do none other than to apologize to the House for the delay in having that Report tabled. MR. WALDING: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't whether the House will accept the Minister's apology, but he is still a little bit vague as to the actual details of this printing. He said that it was ready prior to the opening of the House, which as I recall was on the 2lst of February. When did he in fact put it out to tender? How much time did he give various printing firms?

Perhaps he can explain to us how he did go about getting it printed and how the printer was selected, and whether any time limit was given to the printer or any delivery date promised by the printer? MR. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, as I mentioned we indicated that we needed the Annual Report within 15 days of the opening of the Session , which would put it approximately, if my mathematics serve me correctly , about the 2nd or the 3rd of March and no one tendered on the basis of that tight a delivery schedule. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, the Minister is continuing to be evasive.

When did he in fact put it out to tender and what was the date of the close of the tender? MR. ORCHARD: Well, the 15 days, I st and corrected. It wouldn't have been the 2nd or 3rd, it would have been somewhere around the 10 to the 15th, because you only consider , as I understand it, working days in calculating your 15-day lead time. We did not receive a tender on whatever the closing date would be basis calculation of 15 working days. In getting our tender and our prin ting accepted we had to accept a later delivery date , and as I say , you know, that is unfort una te. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, let me try the questions one at a time if it's a little too complicated for the Minister to grasp when I ask two questions at the same time. Can the Minister tell me the date of the close of tenders? MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the department didn't do the actual tendering. The Queen's Prin ter is the group that arranges the printing of annual reports. MR. WALDING: Can the Minister explain or give a date to the committee as to when the material was sent to the Queen's Printer? MR. ORCHARD: We haven't got that date here but it's available. MR.

WALDING: Can the Minister indicate whether it was recently , like in February or perhaps January, or was it a matter of perhaps more months ago than that? MR. ORCHARD: The deputy thinks it's somewhere towards the end of January , Mr. Chairman. MR. WALDI NG: I'd like to ask the Minister whether it is standard practice for the Queen's Printer to put annual reports out for tender or whether there was an instruction from the Minister to tender the printing of this document? MR.

ORCHARD: Well I can •t answer as to what is standard practice for the Queen's Printer but there were no instruction s from myself to tender it out. MR. WALDING: So as far as the Minister is concern ed, the Queen's Printer could have prin ted it himself. MR. ORCHARD: Well I had no objection as to who printed it , no. MR. WALDIN G: can the Minister inform the committee as to the tendering procedures by the Queen's Printer when it comes to the Department of Highways Annual Report? - 1505 -

Monday , 24 March , 1980 MR. ORCHARD: No, I don't have any details on their tendering methods, Mr. Chairman. MR. WALDING: Did the Minister receive from the Queen's Printer a delivery date for the annual report? MR. ORCHARD: answer for you. I didn't , but poss ibly my department did. That I can't MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, since the Minister has some of his senior staff with him perhaps he would be good enough to inquire as to whether that in fact happened? MR. ORCHARD: As I indicated the expected delivery date was the 2lst which is now past without delivery. MR. WALDING: I presume them, Mr.

Chairman, that the Minister or one of his senior staff would have approached the Queen's Printer immediately that deadline was passed and ask for an explanation, a new promise as to the delivery date. MR. ORCHARD: That was not something that had taken place today, it was something that we were going to do tomorrow morning. MR. WALDING: Well, Mr. Chairman , it seems it's rather a slap-happy approach to this very important document. Does the Minister not care that the committee is si tting to consider his estimates for the new year without receipt of the Department of Highways Annual Report.

Surely the Minister knows , or was advised, that within 15 days of the Opening of the House he was required to table such a report and in fact did not do so; and neither he nor his senior staff apparently contacted the Queen's Printer to find out the reason for the delay or even the new expected delivery date so that he could give an explanation and an apology to the House for his delinquent behaviour. MR. ORCHARD: Well I think that question is quite well put. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, to assist the committee I would like to offer the Minister a suggestion.

I'm sure that the Minister must have one or more draft copies of the annual report , a copy of which went to the Queen's Printer , and perhaps to assist us the Minister could send someone down to his office and bring at least two copies, one for the government side of the committee and one for the opposition and any other copies that he may have. Or if --(Inter­ jection)-- Yes , that I said and any other copies that he may have, yes, yes.

And if he hasn't that there's a photostat machine just down the hall and I'm sure that within a matter of minutes , the report is roughly about 200 pages , it wouldn't take him any more than 15 , 20 minu tes to photostat two or three copies of the report for the committee's use. MR. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, that would be a rather difficult order to fill at this time of the day. MR. HANUSCHAK: I believe that the door to the photostat room is open and I'm sure the Minister has a key to his own office and he could get a copy of the report from there which I'm sure he has, he must. MR.

ORCHARD: No, I don't have a copy in my office , Mr. Chairman. MR. HANUSCHAK: I'm sorry, I didn't quite hear the Minister. MR. ORCHARD: I don't have a draft copy in my office , Mr. Chairman. - 1506 -

Monday , 24 March, 1980 MR. HANUSCHAK: The Minister does not have a draft copy of his own report. That I find difficult to believe because if the report is following the same format of previous ones, the Highways Department Annual Report on Page II , has a photograph of the Minister - whether that's an essential part of the report or not I don't know, and then a message from the Minister , so it's his report. I'm very muc h surprised that he doesn't have a copy of a report for which he takes respon­ si bility for writing. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Johns was trying to • MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, just a point raised by the Member for Burr ows, it is really not conceivable that the Department of Highways wouldn 't have one copy of the report, more than the one which was sent out to be printed. I think the sugges tion by the Member for Bu rrows is pretty good. There must be an additional copy and if that could be laid on the table then at least anything that would benefit even for one day a review of it would be an indication of co-operation. I •m wondering whether there isn •t available somewhere one copy that's not being used of the report which was sent for publica tion. MR. ORCHARD: Well, Mr.

Chairman, we have one copy coming. MR. CHAIRMAN: 9.(b)(l). The Member for St. Vital. MR. WALD ING : Mr. Chairman, there was just one question. that I omitted to ask and that was when the Minister first received the draft copy of the annual report. MR. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think it was in the end of January or thereabouts. MR. WALDING : One further qu estion, Mr. Chairman, why does it take approx­ imately nine months to put together the annual report for the department? MR. ORCHARD: Well, Mr.

Chairman, with the department we do all our work in-House and it takes a ce rtain amount of time for each division in the department to make their contribution to the annual report. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING : Does the Minister have a deadline for the receipt of these reports from various departments and can he tell us how many staff there are working on consolidating those reports into one annual report of the department? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR.

ORCHARD: Well, there's no additional staff which is deployed in the department specifica lly to the drafting of the annual report. As I say , staff within each division does the drafting and draws up the report as pertinent to their particular department, or function within the department. MR. WALDING: The other qu estion I ask then, Mr. Chairman, is there a ce rtain date set for receipt of those differing reports from differing sections of the Minister's department? MR. ORCHARD: We usually target for about a month before the House sits to have the rough draft ready for print. MR.

WALD ING : I ask the Minister then if he thinks that is not overly generous with time, from the Minister's point of view. He's speaking of something like ten months from the end of the previous fiscal year to having this draft material ready for his department, and by his own statement it is then ready in different sections. Presumably , there is some layout or editing work to be done by someone or some people in his department. - 1507 -

Monday , 24 March, 1980 MR. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, in terms of drawing up an annual report , a lot of the accurate and statistical information is not available unti l June and sometimes on into July, which does reduce the amount of vailable time by a couple or three months, I would suppose MR. WALDIN G: Well, given that there is a delay until perhaps June or July , as the Minister says, in gathering some statistical information, that still leaves six months to write it into a report from that particular section.

Would it not make more sense, particularly in view of the fact that members of the Opposition would be waiting impatiently for such a report , to put an earlier deadline on it, perhaps October or Novermber time, so that the Minister could get it to the Queen's printer with or without instructions for tendering and make sure that he had it back even before the opening of the sess ion, which is, in itself, an indeterminate time, Mr. Chairman , because as you know and the Minis ter knows, it's the prerogative of the Premier to set such a date.

And for the Minister to say a date such as some time in January or the end of January , not knowing when the Session is open, is to risk what has in fact happened here, not having the material ready for the opening of the Session , or within fifteen days of the Session. MR. ORCHARD: Well, certainly, in view of the circu mstances this year, an earlier deadline date is not only desirable but necessar y. MR. WALDING : Thank you , Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 9.(b)(l)--pass; 9.(b)(2) - the Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, could the Minis ter give us a breakdown of the es timated actual for the year ending March 31, 1980 for this item? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Mini ster. MR. ORCHARD: The requested vote is $1,994 ,0 00, which is a decrease of $1, 174 ,000. 00. The decrease is attributable to five basic areas. We have budgeted for an increase of $39, 70 0 in provision for payments of the driver licensing agents' commissions on a monthly basis, rather than the agents retaining the commissions as at present. We have a reduction of $28 ,0 00, which last year was a non-recurring cost in purchasing microfilm equi pment.

We have an increase of $117 , OOO caused by an increase in the number of commissionable transactions by the vehicle registration agents. That's to do with a normal increase in the number of vehicles registered, plus the fact that now commercial truck and trailer registrations are able to be given by MPIC agents in ru ral Manitoba. So we have a new category of registration functions which now has to be funded by flat fees, so that accounts for a fairly good portion of the $117 ,OOO increase.

We have budgeted for a reduct ion of the fee paid to MPIC for administration of vehicle registration system of $1,384,700. 00. That , in accordance with the 55-45 cost-sharing , and then we have an $82,0 00 increase as a provision for general cost increases. All of those increases and decreases give us a net decrease in this appropriation over voted 1979-19 8 0 by $1,174 ,ooo.oo. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , you '11 realize that was not an answer to my question at all. I asked the Minister for a breakdown of the estimated actual for the year ending March 31 , 1980. MR.

ORCHARD: The estimated actual expendi ture is $3, 153 ,00 0.00. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, to abbreviate the next answer, would the Minister say that the answer he gave to the question which I didn't ask , just before this last one, was related to the Estimates for that last year or to the Ac tuals for last year? --(Interjec tion)-- Well, no , even that doesn't answer it; when he says there is an inc rease or a decrease we still don't know the breakdown of the Actu al for the last year. That is the qu estion I asked: Not the total but the breakdown of the estimated Actu al. - 1508 -

Monday , 24 March, 1980 MR. ORCHARD: Those figures that I have gave him in answer to the question that he did not ask are in comparison to the voted amounts last year. MR. CHERNIAC K: Mr. Chairman, I do understand that. The reason I thought I would have to ask for a more extensive breakdown is that what was voted last year was $3,168 ,000.00. I am asking the Minister for a breakdown of the amount spent , which is $3 ,153 ,0 00 .0 0. It can't be very lengthy. MR. ORCHARD: There is a number of categories: thousand; MPIC Agents Commission - $863.5 Fees for Audit - $2.8 MR. CHERNIACK: How much? MR.

ORCHARD: $863.5 thousand; MPIC Administration Fee $1,7 70 ,000; Postage - $36.4 thousand; Private Mileage - $418.8 thousand; Insurance Reimburse­ ment - $1.5 thousand; Publications - $.1 thousand; Fin ancial Costs for Writeoffs - $29 thousand; Freight - $2.6 thousand; Travel Expenses - $14 thousand; Real Estate - $.5 thousand; and a reduction in Registration Plates and Stickers of $123 thousand; as well as $142.4 thousand which is a number of items involving the Driver Licence Is suing Costs , which range from fees to agent commissions , to postage, to private mileage, to advertising, to publications , etc. MR.

CHERN IACK: Two items mentioned , Mr. Chairman, I am not sure that I got them down clearly but I think the Minister said MPIC Commission - $863 ,0 00 .0 0. If he said that, could he explain the nature of that expenditure? MR. ORCHARD: Those are the flat fees paid to MPIC agents for the registra­ tion of vehicles on behalf of the Motor Vehicle Branch. MR. CHERNIACK: Is that the 60 cents or the $1.20 that he was referring to earlier? MR. ORCHARD: That is the $1.20 . MR. CHERNI ACK: $1.20 - that means that there was some 70 0 ,0 00 vehicles registered? MR. ORCHARD: That would be an incorrect calculation. MR.

CHERNIACK: Could the Minister give me a correct one, please? I said, could the Minister please correct it for me? MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, there are ce rtain functions which are paid out at a $1.20 per registration transaction; however, we have other transactions , which, if my memory serves me correctly , are worth only 70 cents per transaction, such as sn owmobile registrations. MR. CHERNIACK: So, 70 0,0 00 vehicles registered. Mr. Chairman, that then means there were more Is there that many in Manitoba? Over 700 ,000. than MR. ORCHARD: Well, Mr.

Chairman, when you have some of the 70 -cent payouts in flat fee commissions that would reduce from the 863.5. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I thought I heard the Minister say it is $1.20 per registration, $863,0 0 0.QO. I divided 12 into 86 and I got something over 7, and I just assumed that meant 70 0 ,000 registrations or more than that. Now the Minister says that some of these were 70 cent registrations; that means that there would be even more than I thought there would be because the 70 cent ones would add on more registrations. Now where is the arithmetic con tradiction? MR. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, 70 cent registration of snowmobiles would not add more registrations of motor vehicles. - 1509 -

Monday , 24 March , 1980 MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, how many vehicles were registered last year? MR. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, 863.5 are the flat fee commissions paid, bu t in the ins tance where a person mails in his registration directly to Aut opac and does not go through an agent there is no flat fee paid, so one cannot cor­ relate the 863 ,0 00 with the total number of vehicles registered in the province. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, it would be helpful if we could get answers to our questions. It would save a lot of time. My question was pretty clear.

I asked how many registrations were there last year. MR. ORCHARD: 712 ,0 00 , Mr. Chairman. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister for giving me that answer. One other item he referred to was , I think , Private Mileage - $418 thousand. I think that is what I wrote down. If that is what I wrote down , could he explain it? MR. ORCHARD: Private Mileage - $1.5 thousand. MR. CHERNIACK: Pardon? MR. ORCHARD: Private Mileage - $1.5 thousand. MR. CHERNIACK: Something like that, I sh ould think. What is that item? MR.

ORCHARD: Well, I would assume that that is mileage paid to personnel who have used their own vehicles in carrying out government business. MR. CHERNIACK: Did the Minister give me an item of $418 thousand or is it that I didn't hear it properly? MR. ORCHARD: I gave you a figure of $418.8 thousand for Plates and Stickers. MR. CHERNIACK: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister whether the Motor Vehicle Inspection Program comes under this item or if not , which one? MR. ORCHARD: Under Item (c) , Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows.

MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, could I ask the Minister whether he now has a draft copy of his Annual Report for the Fiscal Year Ending March 3lst , 1979? MR. ORCHARD: It is being delivered, Sir. MR. CLERK: The answer is yes. MR. HANUSCHAK: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: g.(b)(l)--pass. g.(b)(2), I'm sorry. MR. HANUSCHAK: Perhaps , Mr. Chairman, this might be an appropriate point for the Committee to rise to give it an opportunity to study the Minister's Report. MOTION presented and defeated. - 1510 -

Monday , 24 March , 1980 MR. CHAIRMAN: 9.(b)(2)--p ass; 9.(c)(l)--pass - the Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I would like to know if the Minister can give us some indication of the need for compulsory seat belt legislation , based on statistics which the department may have available. MR. ORCHARD: There are indications that seat belt legislation has been effective in reducing injuries in certain juri sdictions that have undertaken the compulsory use of seat belts.

However, it appears as if some of the statistics that are being presented may be somewhat confused in their validity in that the speed limits were also dropped in and around the same time that compuls ory seat belt legislation was introduced. As we see from statistics in the U.S. where the speed limits were reduced, they had very similar reduction in accident rates as to what we experienced in jurisdictiona where seat belt legislation was introduce d. MR. CHERNIACK: What jurisdictions in Canada have compulsory seat belt legislation? MR. ORCHARD: I believe there are four: B.C. , Saskatchewan, Ontario and Quebec.

MR. CHERNIACK: And do any of those have lower speed limits than we have on our highways? MR. ORCHARD: I don't believe so, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, assuming they have not, then the Minister indicates that their better safety record, better than Manitoba's, may be attribu table as it is to United States jurisdict ions where there is no compulsory seat belt legisla­ tion but where there is reduced speed limits. Is that the correct

interpretation of what the Minister said? MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I wouldn't want the Member for St. Johns to leave the impression that Manitoba is an unsafe place to drive, because Manitoba enjoys the second lowest accident rate in Canada, second only to Ontario. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I ce rtainly did not intend to leave such an impresssion. I just want to underst and whether it is sugges ted that reduced speed limits, with or without compulsory seat belts, create a better driving safety record on the highways. Is that what the Minister said earlier? MR. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, what I indicated earlier is that in jurisdic­ tions in the U.S. where the speed limit was dropped , their accident record and injury record reduced dramatically without having compuls ory seat belt legisla­ tion. In some of the jurisdiction s in Canada for which statistics are available they experienced , with compulsory seat belt legislation , at the same time or about the same time that speed limits were dropped , a reduction in accidents and inJurie s.

It is difficult when you have the two things operating at the same time to determine what the by itself or isolated effect of the seat belt legislation was in comparison to the isolation effect of lowering the speed limit. MR. CHERNIACK: Bu t, Mr. Chairman, in the four Canadian juri sdictions where the Minister is not aware of any speed limits that are lower than Manitoba's, there was apparently an improvement in the safety record, regardless of the fact that the speed limit was lower , but attributable then to the one factor and that is compuls ory seat belts. Is that not correct? MR. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, I was discussing with my Assistant Deputy and I missed the Member for St. Johns' point there. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, the impression I'm getting from what the Minister said was that in United States there was both a reduction in speed limit and compulsory seat belts in ce rtain jurisdictions and there was an improved safety record. In Canada there are ••• - 1511 -

Monday , 24 March, 1980 MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman , to correct the Member for St . Johns , in juris­ dictions where only the speed limit was dropped without compulsory seat belt legislation . MR. CHERNIACK : Then, as I understood it, in the four provinces of Canada where there was no reduc tion in speed limit but there was an introduction of compulsory seat belts, there was an increase in the safety record. Is that a correct statement? MR .

ORCHARD : In Ontario and B.c. they had their compulsory seat belt legislation introduced at ap proximately the same time that they lowered their speed limits in converting to the metric, metrification of the highways, and yes, they did enjoy a reduction in accide nts and injuries. But when two events happened at the same time it's difficult to isolate the statistical impact of one event in isolation . MR. CHERNIACK: How about the other two provinces? MR.

ORCHARD: I' m informed that in the case of Saskatchewan, they attri­ bu ted a reduction in injuries and acc idents solely to the introduction of compul­ sory seat belts. We don 't have information as to the province of Quebec . MR. CHERNIACK: Well now , Mr. Chairman , as I understand it, we have dropped the speed limit in Manitoba due to metrification. Can we assume that there was an improved safety factor as a resul t thereof? MR. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, we did have a reduction in fatalities of 8.1 percent and a reduction in injuries of 2.3 percent . MR.

CHERNIACK : So we now know that there has been an improvement which may be attributable to the reduced speed limits, since that is the only factor of change . If we tie that with an introduction of compulsory seat belt legislation then can we assume there wou ld be a further improvement in the safety records? MR. ORCHARD : Well, Mr. Chairman, that might be a fair assum ption to make .

And I say "might" because we only have one jurisdiction in Canada with similar driving conditions in which we can make a reasonably good comparison an d, even there, their before and after statistics are possibly not the most beneficial , but that may be a conc lusion that you could come to. MR. CHERNIACK: Is the Minister prepared at this Session to introduce compul sory seat belt legislation? MR. ORCHARD : No , I' m not , Mr. Chairman . MR. CHERNIACK : Mr. Chairman, moving to compulsory helmets for motorcycles, does the Minister have any statistics to present to us in that connection? MR.

ORCHARD : No , I don 't have any statistics on compulsory helmets. MR . CHER NI ACK: Mr. Chairman , the Minister may not have but does the Department not have statistics to indicate the advisability, or otherwise, of compulsory use of helmets? MR. ORCHARD: Well , Mr. Chairman , the Motor Vehicle Branch has that but we don 't have that information with us. 1 MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , I honestly don 't know one who knows more \ibout safety measures than Mr.

Dygala , who is in this room, and I' m just wondering whether the Minister could not learn enough from him to in form us about the results of investigations on the compulsory use of helmets without using specific statistics? - 1512 -

M:>nday, 24 March, 1980 MR. ORCHARD: My Assi stant Deputy informs me that in the States and in provincial jurisdict ions where compulsory helmet legislation has been introduced there has been a reduction in fatalities. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , has the Minister stepped up his informational program to encourage voluntary use of seat belts and voluntary use of helmets , and to what extent in dollars is he asking for more money for that kind of a program? MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, there is no provision for a stepped up wear the seat belt campaign in these Es timates. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, it seems to me that if there is an indication that it is logical that there should be an improvement in safety statistics because of compulsory seat belts and recognizi ng , as I do, that there are certain arguments against the compuls ory use of seat belts and recognizing , as we all do, that the government now does have a program to encourage the use of seat belts, I would like to suggest that the Minister should have a stepped up program, increased moneys for the very purpose of a strong campaign for voluntary use , in view of the fact that he doesn't want to make it compulsory and in view of the fact that he knows that it can't but be better to have that kind of a voluntary program.

I don't know just what item it should be in but I susp ect it should be in this item that we are now discussing. I would like to know why it is that there is no attempt being made to increase the funds available to provide for that kind of very worthwhile program which does not carry with it the unat tract ive features of compulsion? MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the member will recall approximately two years ago, I believe it was, the federal government undertook an extensive campaign nationally across all provincial juri sdictions to encourage the use of seat belts.

You might recall the pumpki n ad. and the egg ad., etc. and apparently they monitored that program before and after quite well and did not find a statiscally signif icant increase in the utilization of seat belts. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, it seems to me that if you cannot , by some form of sales method which the free enterprise system has taught is so capable for selling products of a useless nature , if we cann ot improve the safety records by encouraging voluntary use of seat belts, and by the same token voluntary use of helmets, then I marvel that the Minister without any justi fication rejects the thought of bringing in legislation for compuls ory use of these safety features. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister tell us how many vehicles have been tested for safety in the last year. MR.

ORCHARD: Last year , 39,000 . MR. ADAM: Could the Minister tell us the reason for turn signals on motorcycles? Could he give us an overview of why this was required? MR. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman , since the 1975 model year the federal government has decreed that all motorcycles sold in Ganada must be equipped with turn signals. Provincial enabling legislation was passed , I think a year and a half ago. It was not in sufficient time to forewarn the motorcycling public that turn signals were in fact required and implementation of that was delayed until this registration year. MR.

ADAM: Does the Minister have any statistics in regard to the safety features of the turn signals? MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the turn signal legislation was proceeded with for signal identification at night because at night, of cour se , hand signals are not nearly as visable as they are in daytime. - 1513 -

�nday , 24 March, 1980 MR. ADAM: The new regulation is going into effect on April lst, I believe. Is that correct? MR. ORCHARD : Yes. MR. ADAM: The act does not show signal lights as being required ; is a bill necessary? MR . ORCHARD : The legislation is in place to require turn signals . MR. ADAM: It is now in The Highways Ac t? This means that all those motorcycles that don't have turn signals will have to install them; is that correct? MR. ORCHARD : That's correct. Anything from 1975 on will have to have turn signals . MR. ADAM: And those prior to 1975 ? MR.

ORCHARD : Since that wasn't under the blanket legislation passed by the federal government , we are in the process of developing an exemption for 197 4 and prior model years. MR . ADAM: That legislation is in process now? MR. OR CHARD : Tha t's correct. MR. ADAM: For those vehicles prior to 1974? MR. ORCHARD : That's correct. MR. ADAM: The Minister is ask ing for $300,0 00 more on this expenditure. I see there 1 s two additional SMYs. Could the Minister explain why he requires the additional SMYs? MR. ORCHARD: Yes, Mr. Chairman , this is one of these very succ essful safety programs.

We have under taken a snowmobile safety course in the wintertime and a bicycle sa fety program in the summertime, and the bicycle safety course has met with a great deal of success. We are expand ing that bicycle safety training course this summer and that accounts for the additional SMYs. MR. ADAM: Could the Minister give us a breakdown on the increase in the $300 , 000 or ••• MR. ORCHARD : We have a portion of that in, of course , the salaries and wages, part of which is increased staff and part of it is general salary increase normal increments.

In terms of the supplies and expenses, our major increase is increased fees to our driver education instructors throughout the province. That accounts for $120, 000 of the increase . MR. CHAIRMAN: The llt:!mber for River Heights. MR. FILMON: Yes, Mr. Chairman , the Minister indicated that 39, 000 vehicles were tested in 197 9. Is that increasing or planned to be increased this year? MR. ORCHARD: That was about the same but we anticipate an increase this year , Mr. Chairman . MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman , is it vehicles that are over five years old, I am trying to recall what the pattern of recall is for testing? MR.

ORCHARD : It was vehicles four years old last year. - 1514 -

Monday , 24 March , 1980 MR. FILMON: Four years old and longer. Is there any intention to move that up into newer model vehicles? The reason I say that is that there are various things which the testing program tests that are not normally tested , such as headlight alignment and that sort of thing , that there is probably no other time at which that is tested on a person's vehicle and I think it serves a useful purpose. MR. ORCHARD: We intend to increase the inspection notice for vehicles because it has been , by and large, quite a successful program. MR. FILMON: Good. Okay, thank you , Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask the Minister about the Motor Vehicle Inspection Program and I suppose many of the ans wers to many of my questions would be in the report and had I had the opportunity to read it I wouldn't be wasting the Committee's time nor the Minister's time in asking the questions. Can the Minister confirm that this program was in effect last year and is intended to continue in effect in the coming year, this year? MR. ORCHARD: You are referring to the Vehicle Safety Inspection? MR. WALDING: Pardon? MR.

ORCHARD: You are referring to the Vehicle Safety Inspector Program? MR. WALDING: Yes, I believe in the previous report it was referred to as the Motor Vehicle Inspector Program. We are speaking of the same program, I take it? MR. ORCHARD: Yes. MR. WALDING: Can the Minister confirm that the program was in effect last year and will be in effect again this year? MR. ORCHARD: Yes , Mr. Chairman. MR. WALDING: Can the Minister give me the figures for the number of vehicles tested last year and the anticipated nu mber to be tested in the coming year? MR.

ORCHARD: Well, as indicated we tested about 39,0 00 vehicles last year and it is anticip ated that we are targeting for an increase of 15,0 00 vehicles this year. MR. WALDING: The Minister is expecting then about 54 ,000 vehicles this year? MR. ORCHARD: That is correct. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, would the Minister refresh my memory and tell me how many years the program has been in operation now? MR. ORCHARD: Approximately nine years is my understanding. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister now if he can inform the Committee, approximately how many vehicles have been tested in those nine years? MR. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, we will have to provide that information for the Member for St. Vital. - 1515 -

M;>nday, 24 March , 1980 MR . WALDING : Mr. Chairman , as I recall , when the program was first insti­ tuted that it was done so following claims that there were a certain number of unsa fe vehicles on the road. There were pressures at the ti me for the annual testing of all vehicles and that this wou ld cut down the number of accidents.

In order to save the expense of testing all vehicles on an annual basis it was decided to test randomly selected vehicles over five years old and then to compare the resul ts of those with a random selection of untested vehicles and to see if there was any benefit to the testing program. Now the Minister tells me the program has been in effect for nine years and I presume that some attempt has been made to check whether the safety program has resulted in a decrease in the number of accidents that those vehicles were involved in.

Can the Minister report to the Committee whether any such testing has been done , testing of statistics that is, and whether any benefit has been found and if so the extent of this benefit? MR. ORCHARD: Yes, Mr. Chairman, over a period of two years two groups of vehicles - one group inspected , the other group not inspected - over a period of two years it was found that the inspected group of vehicles had six percent fewer accidents. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER , Mr. David Blake : The Honou rable Member for St . Vital . MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, can the Minister indicate to us the numbers of vehicles involved , how many vehicles ; when he says six percent how many wou ld that entail. MR . ORCHARD: vehicles. Each sample group, Mr. Chairman , was approximately 7 ,OOO MR . WALDING: Seven? MR . ORCHA RD: Thousand . MR .

WALDING : I'd like to ask the Minister whether he feels that the 6 percent was statistically significant , and whether he has drawn any conclus ions from these tests; whether, for example , he feels that there should be more frequent testing or testing on a wider basis and whether that is the reason for the increase of some 15 ,000 vehicles to be tested this year? Does he feel that the annual testing of all vehicles would be a good idea, and does he intend to bring in such testing? MR . ORCHARD: Well , Mr.

Chairman , at a 6 percent reduction in accidents the program is cost-effective, and we are expanding it as I'v e said by 15,0 00 vehicles, and we hope to maintain that upper level or higher level of vehicle testing. MR . WALDING : I'd like to ask the Minister, with respect to the 54 ,000 , is he still working on an age limit of five years for the vehicles to be tested or whether he is reducing that age limit at all ; and whether this is what accounts for the additional numbers of vehicles, or whether the computer is actually turning out a larger percentage of the number of vehicles? MR . ORCHA RD: Well, Mr.

Chairman, we are testing four-year old vehicles this year. The majority of the random sam ple will be four years old, there will be some three-year old vehicles in that as well. Four year old and older, with the odd one three year old. MR . WALDI NG: I'd lik e to ask the Minister what 's the criterion for pick ing ce rtain three year old vehicles? MR . ORCHA RD: The same criterion , it's a random selection. MR. WALDING : If it' s a random selection then, Mr. Chairman, I assume that it's a random selection of all vehicles three years old and over. - 1516 -

Monday, 24 March , 1980 MR. ORCHARD: The majority of the selection will be in the four year old and older, and we will pull some three year old vehicles as well. The majority of the vehicles inspected will be four years and older, unless we have specific referrals by the police department. MR. WALDING: I still don' t understand the last point from the Minister about the three year old vehicles as opposed to the four and older vehicles. Would he explain why he says there are just some from the three year old group? MR. ORCHARD: When we proceed, Mr.

Chairman, to an area for testing to have enough vehicles on the random selection to justify the location of the testing equ ipment there, in some areas we will have to use three year old and older vehicles, hence, we will have some three year old vehicles in the random selection. MR. WALDING: These ce rtain areas where the three year old cars would be included , can I ask the Minister if those would be mostly in rural areas? MR. ORCHARD: By and large, Mr. Chairman, in rural areas. MR.

WALDI NG: I'd like to ask the Minister now, whether the random selec­ tion process for the testing of vehicles is for all registered motor vehicles or just passenger cars and light trucks? MR. ORCHARD: The random selection, Mr. Chairman, involves passenger vehicles, truc ks , commercial vehicles and school buses. And this year there will be a special emphasis on the commercial vehicle selection to probably give us a higher percentage of commercial vehicle inspection than we have had in past years. MR. WALDIN G: Mr.

Chairman, does the Minister have a breakdown of the statistics for vehicles not meeting the standards of the safety program, say, pass enger cars as against light commercial vehicles, heavier trucks and school buses? Does he have a breakdown by category? MR. ORCHARD: I don't believe, Mr. Chairman, that we have a breakdown by specif ic category, I think we 've got statistics which indicate the percentage of vehicles that have failed the test through one safety criteria or another, and on an overall average it is approximately 59 percent of the vehicles are not success­ ful in passing the safety inspection. MR.

WALDING: 59 ? Mr. Chairman, I was waiting for the Minister to give me that breakdown. MR. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, we don't have that. That 59 percent is according to all vehicles inspected and we don 't have it broken down by passenger vehicles or cars versus truc ks versus buses. We have it but it 's not here. MR. WALDING: I'd appreciate it if the Minister would supply me with that information at his convenience, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to ask him also whether bulk liquid vehicles, such as tanker trucks are a particular category? MR.

ORCHARD: We don 't have a specific category for that type of commercial vehicle, but in the selection and as I indicated, we intend to have a greater selection of commercial vehicles with that as one of the target groups within the commercial vehicles to give us a handle on whether we sh ould be looking at increasing the inspection frequency of transport tankers that are on the highways. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, I' m mostly concerned with the safety aspects of tank trucks that would be carrying, perhaps , gasoline , propane , vinyl chloride and any nu mber of other explosive dangerous toxic or carcinogenic materials. Perhaps the Minister could give me an idea of how many vehicles of that type were tested last year and how many he intends to test this year? MR. ORCHARD: Of which category again? - 1517 -

tt>nday, 24 March, 1980 MR . WALDING: Of the tanker type of vehicle that might carry bul k gasol ine , propane, vinyl chloride, etc. , etc . MR . ORCHARD: We don 't have tanker trailers broken out speci fically in past statistics. MR . WALDI NG : Mr. Chairman, does the Minister have any estimate as to the percentage of such vehicles that were tested last year? MR . ORCHARD: No , we don 't have that kind of information, Mr. Chairman. MR. WALDING : I would like to ask the Minister whether vehicles of that type would fit into the same criterion as the other vehicles tested , i.e. five. years old or ol der? MR.

ORCHARD: No, I am informed there was no age criteria for commercial vehicle s. One of the problems that we 're possibly going to run into in terms of age is that the registration slip will show the age , or the registration year, the first time the tractor unit has been registered , but it will not necessaril y show the age of the trailer unit it self, the tank , or the compressed gas vehicle , so therefore we 're not using an age sele ction on the commercial vehicl es. MR . WALDING : I'd like to ask the Minister if there are any safety standards for such trailer units? MR .

ORCHARD: There 's several jurisdict ions here. The running gear itself is under regulation as to what 's available or what is required in terms of li ghting, brake capacity , etc ., etc . We have two different kinds of, let 's call them liquid tankers, on the road . There 's the liquid tanker which will carry the non -pressurized li quids and to my knowledge there is no specif ic standards for them in terms of construction or testing . In other words, a re-test.

When you get down to the compressed gas trailer s such as carry LPG propane , anhydrous ammonia, those trailers, if my memory serves me correct, are all certified under a Pressure Vessels Act which is a national Act , and they have to be , I believe , static tested on a two-year interval to assure that th ey 're in safe condition. In terms of the transportation of hazardous goods, the members will recall that prior to the dissolution of the parliament in December there was a bill on the transportation of hazardous goods which died on the Order Paper in Ottawa .

And in January of this year I attended in Victoria the provincial Ministers of Transpor­ tation's conference at which all the provincial Ministers, with the exception of Newfoundland and his Deputy was there, plus the two Territory Ministers were in attendance and a unanimous resolution was passed at that Transportation Ministers' conference urging the federal government - and at that time the election was in full stride so we didn •t know to whom we were making the recommendation.

But a unanimous recommendation went out of that conf erence urging the federal government to reintroduce their legislation on hazardou s goods without modification. In other words, exactly as it was presented , so that there would be an immed iate implementation of that hazardous goods transportation legislati on. And we only trust that our recommendation will be foll owed when the new parliament sits in Ottawa . MR.

WALDING: I'd li ke to ask the Minister whether that federal Act dealing with the transportation of hazardous goods included the transportation of such hazardous goods by road , or only by rail and water such as the federal government has ju risdiction over? MR . ORCHARD: No , it 's my understa nding that that legislation dealt with all modes of transportation of hazardous goods. MR . WALDING : One las t que stion I think , Mr . Chairman. When such a vehicle is called in for testing on this random basis, is it just the tractor part that - 1518 -

!ohnday, 24 March, 1980 comes in or is there a trailer attached to it and is that tested at the same time? MR. ORCHARD: The entire unit , Mr. Chairman, is tested. MR . WALDING: Thank you. MR . DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rossmere. MR . SCHROEDER : Thank you , Mr . Chairman . I have a question with respect to highway safety . I •m just wondering whether the Motor Vehi cle s Branch might have some statistics with respect to accidents per mile driven on divided highways as opposed to just two-lane highways. MR . ORCHARD: We don't have any current statistics comparing divided versus two-lane acc ident statistics.

MR . SCHROE DER : Thank you. Are there any statistics within the last number of years, for instance with respect to the divided portion of Highway 59 , be it up to East Selkirk or up to past East Selkirk as opposed to from that stretch in the road up to Grand Beach? MR . ORCHARD: Well , on that speci fic highway, Mr . Chairman, we don't have statistics availab le . But the province does have statistics comparing two-lane versus four-lane divided . I don't know for what year , but we can make those acciden t statistics available. MR . SCHROEDER : Yes, Mr . Chairman.

Could I ask the Minister for what highway he does have statistics and , if available , for what year? MR . ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman , I believe it 's only for Trans-Canada Highway . MR. SCHROEDER : Yes. If he has statistics available for the Trans-Canada Highway I would presume that he has to have something to compare them with, that is some two-lane highway. Is it Highway 75 or Highway 59 or Highway 44, which two-lane could he compare it with? MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor: The Honourable Minister. MR. ORCHARD: Well , Mr . Chairman , my understandin g is that it 's a comparison on Trans-Canada, the divided

section versus the undivided

section which proceeds from Brandon to the Saskatchewan border. MR. SCHROEDER : Thank you , Mr. Chairman. Could I ask the Minister whether there is a traffic count then on that particular highway, that stretch of highway between Brandon and the Saskatchewan border as well as a traffic count on summer weekends on Highway 44 and Highway 59? MR . ORCHARD: We have traffic count s, Mr. Chairman, on those areas. MR. SCHROEDER : Are they available now? MR. ORCHARD: No, Mr. Chairman, they'r e not available here th is evening, no. They're on master maps that we have. MR . SCHROE DER : Yes.

When might we expect to receive those figures? MR. ORCHARD: We can make those available in a couple of days. MR . SCHROEDER : Thank you . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. - 1519 -

Monday, 24 March, 1980 MR . ADAM: I don't know if I understood the Minister correctly to say ju st a while ago that in the vehicle inspection that was done at random, that there were more rural vehicles called in than there were urban vehicles. Is that correct? MR . ORCHARD: No , Mr. Chairman. MR . ADAM: What is the percentage? MR . ORCHARD: I don't have that breakdown here , Mr. Chairman. MR. ADAM: Wel l, then, how is this done then, by alp habetical order or the numbers of the cars and vehicles? MR . ORCHARD: Well , Mr .

Chairman, dependin g on how many vehicles we want to sample it pulls out every third or fourth, it's a random selectio n, every third or fourth or fifth vehicle in a run . MR. ADAM: And that would ap ply to the rural as well as the urban? MR . ORCHA RD: That's correct. MR . ADAM: It would be about 50-50 maybe? MR. ORCHARD: It would be close but I would suspect that it would be more urban vehicles than rural vehicles. MR . CHAIRMAN: g.( c) . The Member for St . George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI : Thank you , Mr . Chairman. I wanted to ask several questions based on the report that we have .

There are a number of factors or reasons that the Motor Vehicle Branch suspends drivers, one of which was the cancellati on of a probationary licence for conviction or accident involvement while driving on a probationary licen ce. Is a driver , a young driver when he rece ives his licence at the age of 16, is he or she on probation for a one-year period? MR . ORCHARD: That 's correct , Mr. Chairman. MR.

URUSKI : In what ci rcumstances, let 's say I' m that individual and I happen to be involved in a motor vehicle accident ; I was involved in a motor vehicle acc ident of which I am not held responsible and there were no charges laid , the damage is fairly substantial but no responsibility of mine , I get my driver 's licence in about two or three months after I' m involved in that kind of an acc ident , would I be called in for an interview or would my licence be suspend ed, making the assumption that those are the circumstances, as an example? MR . ORCHARD: Well , Mr.

Chairman, if I can reiterate the circumstanc es, it 's a 16- year ol d? MR . URUSKI : Yes. MR . ORCHARD: He 's within his first year of having his driver 's licence. MR . URUSKI : Within several months, yes. MR . ORCHARD: And within several months of receiving his first licence he 's involved in an accident in which there is substantial damage and there is absolutely no blame attributed to the junior driver , to the young driver . Are those the ci rcumstances that we 're dealing with? MR .

URUSKI : Now the point the Minister makes of no-blame , by insurance standards he is not held responsible , he is responsible less than 50 percent with no charges being laid or no convictions. - 1520 -

M:>nday, 24 March, 1980 MR . ORCHARD: Well , in a case like that , if the driver was not charged or convicted then there should be no action taken against his driving privileges. MR . URUSKI : Okay , I go on for another three months and then I'm involved in a vehicle acc ident of very, I would say, minor damage - minor by what I would say less than $200 - damage of which I have been held responsible for the mishap and still no charges being laid, in the same first year of probation.

How would the Branch consider that kind of a • . • no injuri es, no damages, no charges but there is some slight damage of which the driver would be held responsible for? MR . ORCHARD: Well , Mr. Chairman , MR . URUSKI : I' m not trying to lead you on. I' m just trying to give you • MR . ORCHARD: No , Bill , I never suspected you were trying to lead me on. The damage threshhold is $300 in an accident and should the damages be below $300 no action is pursued by Motor Vehicle Branch . Should the damage exceed that and he is at fault , then the Mot or Vehicle Branch will become involved at that time. MR .

URUSKI : What kind of involvement could one see in a case like that, in terms of would it be an automatic suspen sion, would it be an investigation or at least a call ing in, a show cause, or what would the involvement of the Safety Division be in a case like that? MR . ORCHARD: If I followed the member's question correctly , this young chap has been involved in an accident in which there is damage over $300 and he is at faul t. MR . URUSKI : Less . MR . ORCHARD: Oh, less than $30 0? MR . URUSKI : Less . MR .

ORCHARD : Well , there shoul d be no involvement by the Motor Vehicle Branch if it 's less than $3 00, Mr. Chairman . MR . URUSKI : That's pretty well the procedures that are handled . Have there been many instnces of suspensions of probationary drivers of the younger category, and I presume that any one who would have his lic ence suspended and be reinstituted would be on probation after his suspension ends . The first year after he has a remission of his licence as a result of his suspension, he automa­ tically is on probation for a y ear . Am I correct in that assumption? MR . ORCHARD: If his licen ce. MR .

URUSKI : There are two categories I am referring to. There is the young age driver who is automatically on probation for a year when receivin g a licen ce, and then, is there not another category of one who has been under suspen­ sion at one time and rece ives his driver 's privileges back? He or she automat­ ically then also is on probation for a year . Is that the way the system works? MR. ORCHARD: I believe the system works this way : That upon reinstate­ ment , his reinstatement licence, call it that, is a probationary lic ence in which he must go through a twelve-month probationary period. MR .

URUSKI : Would the department have statistics of how many of the probationary licences of the younger age are called in, in terms of for offences dealing with traffic offences , acciden ts, and the like, in a year , of new lic ences issued? Would there be statistics , say , last year I think there was a • • • I - 1521 -

M:>nday, 24 March, 1980 don't know whether the Annual Report says how many lic ences were issued . I would like to know how many licences were issued last year in 19 79, new licen ce s. MR . ORCHARD: The number of new lic ences last ye ar, and these are rough figures, approximately 30 ,0 00 new licences last year. MR . URUSKI : Of those new lice nces , how many would be in the age category of 16 to 17 years of age? Or is every new licence put into the probation , regard­ less of age of the driver? MR .

ORCHARD: If it 's the first time that lice nce has been issued , regard­ less of age, they are on a one-year probation. MR . URUSKI : So then there were 30 , OOO . Of 30 , OOO new lice nces how many would have been calle d in within , well, we would have to go back now to 197 8 to see how many were called back in 1979 . MR . ORCHARD: As a ball park figure , it 's somewhere in the 3,0 00 lice nce mark, or roughly 10 per cent. MR . URUSKI : Roughly , then 10 percent of the drivers are .

Of those drivers who are called back , what kind of driver improvement are they requested or told to undert ake before their driving privileges would be reconsidered or reinstated? MR . ORCHARD: Mr. Ch airman , I am informed that there are basical ly three steps , increasing in severity, shall we say. All of the 3,0 00 , upon reinstatement are interviewed by our driver lice nce safety personnel to assure that , let 's say, they have learned from their sins of remission and omission.

The second step , if the driver tester upon that interview believes that that driver would benefit from a defensive driving cour se , he will require that person to take the same . And then following that, may require a re-examination of that driver before allowing him his driving privileges back . MR . URUSKI : Of those 3,0 00 that have been called in, of the first-time drivers, would there be an estimate or statistics to indicate how many of these 3,0 00 were involved in alcohol-related convictions? MR . ORCHARD: That figure is probably not availa ble , Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI : I see . MR .

ORCHARD: If it is available , we will make it available to the Member for St. George. MR . URUSKI : Having as many years expe rience as some of the staff in the branch have , would there be a prognosis as to. Is it a la rge proportion or is it a smaller proportion in relationship to the normal suspensions that go on throughout the year? MR . ORCHARD: As a very rough guess , it would be less than the 20 percent of those 3,0 00. MR . URUSKI : Of those 3,0 00 . MR. CHAIRMAN: 9. (c) (l )-- pass - the Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI : Thank you , Mr. Chairman.

Have there been many new commerc ial driving schools operating in the province within the last year? Have there been new facilitie s opened? MR . ORCHARD: Not that we 'r e aware of, Mr. Chairman . - 1522 -

�nday , 24 Mar ch , 1980 MR . URUSKI : Mr. Chairman , I understa nd that the Motor Vehicle Branch does and ce rtifies, if that's the correct word, the instructors as well as testing the vehicle , the training vehicles, for the road worthiness. Is there any , and I think the report says "practices and ethics of commercial driving schools"; has there been any offences or any what one would consider unethical practices carried on that the branch is aware of?

And if so , how can the branch , and how does the branch deal with any unethical practices that may occur , such as overcharging or the like , of unsuspecting new driver students? MR . ORCHARD: There have been very very few complaints but there have been the occasional complaint about molestation of the trainee , and any complaint that the department has received in that regard , they have followed up with a suspen­ sion of that particular •• • where it 's proven. Where the charge is proven, that instructor has been suspen ded . MR .

URUSKI : The suspensi on, and instructor can take what kind of forms? what has actually occurred ? that's one case , the suspension of an A permanent suspension from driving or MR . ORCHARD: It wasn 't a permanent suspensi on, Mr. Chairman . It was a suspension for a given period of time. MR . CHAIRM AN: 9. (c) (l)- -pass ; 9. (c )( 2)- -pass ; 9. (d) (l) - the Member for Fort Rouge. MRS . WESTBURY: Mr. Chairman , relative to the Taxicab Board, I was wondering what, if anything, the Minister feels that he is able to do about the situation at the Winni peg International Airport and the supply of taxis there.

I realize that the airport comes under the Federal Transport Commission and so on, but this is a local problem and it 's a serious problem for people coming in on the planes late at night . And is the Minister proposing to make any proposals to the federal Minister or to the Taxicab Board ? MR . ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman , the Taxicab Board has identified that as one of their problem areas, let 's call it, and the airport si tuation is a somewhat unique one in that there was a ten-year service contract let to one taxi firm in the City of Winnipeg to pick up passengers at the airport.

Any taxicab company can off-load passengers, but only the one with approximately 200 vehicles has the contract to pick up passengers at the airport . That contract, Mr. Chairman, is to expire in the beginning of 19 81. The board is cu rrently investigating the taxicab airport service offered in other cities. We have obtained for the Taxicab Board through my office, the service agreement that is in use , for instance, at Calgary International Airpo rt . We have statistics available on the type of contract and the service provided , etc., etc ., at the Edmo nton Airport.

And the board is actively pursuing methods by which the service hopefull y can be improved and some of the complaints and some of the problems that have been encountered over the past few years at the airport hope fully can be eliminated at the expiry of this present ten-year con tract with the renewal of a new contract for taxi service to the airport . MRS . WESTBURY: Mr. Chairman , I have been at the airport when there hasn 't been one single cab there from that company and of course , acting on their leg al obligation, another taxi has let off people and have had to drive off.

And of course this jus t compounds the annoyance of being a passenger coming off one of those flights. Now I wanted to suggest that even if the one company with the greatest number of cabs was to receive a renewal of the contract, perhaps in the off hours when their drivers are not prepared to be there it could be made open to one of the other companies. It •s possibly an alt ernative that could be looked at and the other companie s may welco me . MR . ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman , that is one of a number of options that may well be available . There is some indication as to the potential value of a corral - 15 23 -

Monday, 24 March , 1 98 0 system, for instance, where anyone who so desires can go in and , with the use of a credit card type identificat ion pla te, have access to depl aning passengers and pay for the privilege of having that service available via a computer billi ng system charged up by the use of their entry card through the corral system.

There are a number of variations of taxi service that are in use in various places in North America and the Board right now, the Taxicab Board, is getting a pretty good handle on the potential systems that are available and hopefully will be able to come up with a system that will service the airport properly and , at the same time, have an eye out on not only just the passenger but also the taxicab industry and its many members as well. MRS. WESTBURY : Mr. Chairman , through you , ple ase .

I would just like to suggest that if you 'r e taking a count of the number of people needin g cabs at the present time, you should realize that an awful lot of the people coming in on late flights and the charter flights are now arranging private transportations so they won 't be dependent on taxis, so any count that's taken at the present time or over the past winter wouldn 't be a true count . People are driving out there and leav­ ing cars for people coming in. MR . ORCHARD : That's true . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose . MR . ADAM : Mr.

Chairman , I wonder if the Minister could tell us how many members are on these different boards, and who they are ; and if there is a backlog in any of these departments, particularly the la tter. MR . ORCH ARD : We have , Mr . Chairman, ten members on the Licence Suspension Appeal Board . They have successf uly reduced the I think there was about a four or five month backlog at least a four or five month backlog of cases in front of the Licence Suspension Appeal Board ; and they are now in a position where they are offering the hearings within the 45 -day period of the temporary driving certificate .

They'r e right up-to-da te. travel? MR . ADAM : Does the Board sit throughout the province, wherever, they MR . ORCHARD : That 's correct. MR . A DAM: Could the Minister read the names of these people on this Board? MR . ORCHARD : We have Ronald Johnson as Chairman; Grant Holmes as Vice Chairman; Gerald Brown from Wawanesa ; Frank McClymont of Thompson ; Barton Dowler, Dauphin ; Susan Hoplock, Winnipeg ; Tom Hannesson, Winnipeg ; Rene La Coste , LaBroquerie ; Eleanor Hainsworth, Winnipeg ; and I don't have an address on Al Stechishin. MR . ADAM : Winni peg? MR . ORCHARD : Stechishin, Winnipeg , sorry. MR .

ADAM : And on the other boards? MR . ORCHARD : On the Highway Traffic Board , we have four members : Al Mackling as Chairman ; Michael Capr i, Winnipeg Vice Chairman ; Frederick Manness and Herman Buechler as members. In the Highway Transport Board we have five members : Al Macklin g as Chairman ; Fred Wood , Vice Chairman; Howard Mitchel l, Adolf Sabeski and Roy Ramsay, Winnipeg, as members . And in the Taxicab Board, Mr .

Chairman , we have : Brian Jakobson as Chairman ; James McTaggart , member; Geoff Dixon, member ; George Provost , counc ill or, City of Winnipeg is the City's member ; and Inspector Wes Langley of the City Police De­ partment as the Winnipeg City Police member . - 1524 -

Monday , 24 March, 1980 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MR. FILMON: Thank you , Mr. Chairman, in speaking to the Taxicab Board, as the Member for Fort Rouge indicated, I too, have ce rtainly had many comments an d, in fact , complaints from constituents about the problem of taxis , not only at the airport but throughout the ci ty. I noted with interest that the Taxicab Board was interested in bringing in dress code uniforms or something of that nature. I think the problem is one of lack of competition wi thin the taxi business in the city.

On two occasions on a business trip I came into the city late at night , in the 1: 30 -2 :00 in the morning range , and there were many people deplaning at the time. There were many people in need of taxicabs and there were not nearly enough taxis at the airport, despite the fact that that's a pretty low period of time for service, pretty low usage. There's absolutely no reason that I could think of that the taxis were not out at the airport.

When I asked the people at the airport , the taxicab drivers , the response was they didn't want to waste their gas in going out to the airport in case there might not be somebody there to use the cab. It seems to me that they put it on the reverse, that the customer should wait for them, and they sh ould have no responsibility to be out there to service cu stomers that are waiting. And, by and large, my experience in dealing with taxicabs in the city is of that natur e and I believe, Mr.

Chairman, that what we should be endeavouring to do is to increase the number of licences that are available within the city ; to increase the competition and through better competi­ tion increase the service, and I'm sure that you will find that you don't have to institute dress codes, that those people who want to get more business and wanted to do a better business will make sure that the drivers are properly dressed and attractive to the customer so that there will be cleaner cars and all those things will come along.

I don't think it's a matter of further regulating the business by bringing in such things as dress codes, but rather by increasing the competi­ tion and letting those who are better able and more willing to serve the customers set the standard for the rest of the business. And I sugge st , rather strongly , that the Minister look into that, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows. I believe he had the Chair, if not , then , the Member for St. Georg e, if not , then the Member for St. Vital. The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I wanted to find out from the Minister and I would like him to indicate how many provinces have instituted the class licensing system? MR. ORCHARD: Nine provinces have instituted the class license system , Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: With the exception of which? MR. ORCHARD: Newfoundland and I'm informed, Mr. Chairman, that they're in the process of instituting a class license system. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, recently the Motor Transport Board held a hearing on an application of Grey Goose Bus Lines to reduce service to a number of rural points througout the province of Manitoba, points in the sout hwestern portion of the province, in the western portion, northeast of Winnipeg through to Grand Beach - that was probably the greatest cut in service from a daily service they were attempting to cut to weekly service - and some cuts into Northern Manitoba and into the Interlake of a re-scheduling of buses, possibly not as great a cut in service as to the Grand Beach area.

I presume that he's aware of the board's decision, is he aware as to what the final outcome of the board's decision has been in this case? MR. ORCHARD: Well, now, I'm not absolutely certain on the sp ecifics. As a matter of fact, I'm not certain if the board has made a final decision in all - 152 5 -

Monday, 24 March, 1980 cases of the applicatio n. I am aware that in certain of the routes , that the bus company voluntarily agreed to introduce, le t' s call it a stepped -up service

schedule not to what they had prior to their applicat ion, but above what they were wanting to get down to; and they tried to accommodate as much as they could some of the unique problems that were going to be created with their original proposal , and they reinstated ce rtain days of schedulin g . MR .

URUSKI : Has the Minister got anyone in the department who does an assessment and the implications of this type of service-cut on to the rural communities that may be affected , because I know that the general complaint that has been made by the public to bus reductions has been that there has been very little notice and the notices that have been put up, in terms of notification of passengers that the routes will be cut are where the ticket vendors are being sold.

I pre sume that in many instances the ticket agents, to some degree , if there is a very small flow of traffic to purchase tickets from their area where people would maybe buy the tickets in Winnipeg and buy a return ticket that they'd have very littl e ticket traffic , that the public that uses the bus service is not adequately and that was borne out in some of the hearings - adequately notified .

Is there a way that the Minister or if not his dep artment, the Depart­ ment of Economic Development is able to assess the impact of those service cuts and to be able to, at least , advise or intervene in the hearings on behalf of the travellin g public as an intermediary because the board , of course , sits on behalf of the government and hears the sub missions.

But there's no one with the expertise to, at leas t, come before the board on behalf of the motorist or the users of the bus system to be able to provide impact analysis as to what the implications are of such cu ts , other than, of course , the members of the board , and do they have, if there's no one in the dep artment , does the board have the expertise to be able to assess the implications of certain cuts and the long-term effects on rural Manitoba? MR . ORCHARD: Well , Mr.

Chairman, the board , who is charged with the res­ ponsibili ty of dealing with these applicatio ns, part of their mandate is to ensure that service to the rural communities is maintained at an adequate level.

Now, there is a discretionary area in there as to what constitutes an adequate level of service , and should they need , should they not have internal ly, and they do have some expertise internally to asc ertain the potential impact on communities affected by the reduced schedulin g , should they not have sufficient expertise within their board or immediate dep artment to which the board is a membership, they have available a fairly competent research group in transportation in the Department of Economic Development .

They are charged , as I say, with a mandate of assurin g that any reduction in service to the communities is a legitimate request ; that the company asking for that kind of a reduction in service is, indeed , sufferin g fairly substantial losses before they would allow the abandonment of scheduled service into some of these communities or a reduction of scheduled service. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St . Vital or the Member for St . George. Pleas e, if you will put your hands up , because I don 't know whether you 'r e coming on again. I have to look at a bunch of pages.

Just signal , then we 're clear . The Member for St . George. Have you got the floor or not? MR . URUSKI : Mr. Chairman, I presume that you will be keepin g a list of who picks up his hand , and then you will have a list and there should be no great diff iculty there. Mr. Cha irman, to follow along the lines that the Minister has indicated , I presume that the board from his answers are able to uti lize the expertise in the Department of Economic Development .

I wonder what policy di rec­ tion does the governemnt give a board of this nature in terms of • • what concerns I have is that while the overall profitability of the indus try or the situation here in Manitoba, primarily Grey Goose and they have the majority of the running rights throughout the province, the profitability may be fairly healthy, while in some lines the passenger counts may be not what might be considered totally profitable , and there would be losses incurred on them. I am hoping that - 15 26 -

Monday , 24 March, 1980 the government direction is that the board does look at cross-s ubsidiz ation within the total industry so that certain communi ties , while the lines may not be profit­ able in certain areas, that there is, from the point of view of service, cross-subs idization within the indust ry as they have, in effect, the total running rights of the monopoly of providing the service throughout the major portion of Manitoba. If it is not Grey Goose, then it is one of its subsiduaries in the Brandon area and the like.

I am hopeful that that kind of direction from govern­ ment is very clear to the board and I would like that confirmed. MR . ORCHARD: Well, Mr . Chairman , in viewing these applications the board has the mandate not ju st to consider the individu al run per se , but just the combination of factors which the Member for St. George is mentioning . It 's much similar to the situ ation that we have with rail line abandonment .

They'r e very similar in nature in that if you forewent or reduced the level of service strictly because of the economics to a given point or to a given series of points along the run, you may well drop that particular bus service. But as with rail line abandonment, any reduction or application for reduction of scheduled bus service must take in to pur view the area served , not ju st the specific line of communities .

And the board is keenly aware that they should consider an overall picture , not only from the standpoint of service, but from the standpoint of profitability and revenues derived elsewhere within the syst em. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for St . Vital . MR. WALDING : Thank you , Mr. Chairman . I have a couple of questions to ask of the Minister . First , following up earlier qu estions on taxis , I would like to ask the Minister why pricing for taxis is given in fractions of a mile. MR . ORCHARD: Is the member wanting to know why it isn't metrificated? MR. WALDING: No, Mr. Chairman .

Any time there is a change in the cab rate, it's given as $1.25 to get into the car and then so much per seventh of a mile or eighth of a mile, or something like that. I would like to know why the price is given in those terms, fractions of distanc e. MR. ORCHARD: I don •t really know. It 's a longstanding meter measurement that's been in existence in the taxi industry for some time. MR. WALDING: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I am sure that the Minister realizes that it's not a meter measurement because the meter continues whether the cab is moving or stationary or whether it's going fourty miles an hour or zero miles an hour . Would it not be simpler to give the rates for taxis in terms of time rather than some artificially computed distance? MR . ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, as the Member for St . Vital has correctly pointed out, the meter continues to run whether the taxi is moving at forty miles an hour or sitting still.

And the meters compute fare on the basis of two criterion, time and distance travelled, and that accounts for the more rapid advancement of the meter when one is going f ourty miles an hour than when one is going ten miles an hour. MR . WALDING: Well, Mr. Chairman, I wasn 't aware of that. I'l l have to check it the next time I get into a cab, but it was always my impression that meter kept ticking over according to time only, and that it was not distance related. However, the other qu estion I had was on a different topic and it was either the Traffic Board or Transport Board.

I wanted to ask the Minister if he had received a report from either of those boards having to do with billboards along­ side of highways. MR . ORCHARD: No, not recently , Mr. Chairman. - 1527 -

boards sors, roads. advise lt>nday, 24 March, 1980 MR . WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I was under the impression that one of those had given a report with recommendations to one of their Mini sters predeces­ having to do with the rather unsightly nature of bill boards alongside I would like to ask the Minister if he is familiar with that and can he what the recommendations in that report were. MR. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chail"lllan, that was a committee which reported in 1975 or 19 76 , and I suppose as a direct resul t of that report we have what is known as what 's the specific term on that? - the signing committee which recommends certain signing standards, which hopefu lly are universal across Canada. MR. WALDING : Mr. Chail"lllan, I wonder if the Minister would be prepared to follow the lead that Prince Edward Island has made in banning all bill boards from the countryside.

If he has ever travelled in that province , he will recognize the dif ference immediately that there are none of these unsightly and rather distract­ ing billb oards littering the main roads. And as a tourist at traction, it really makes a big difference as a source of attraction, I am sure , for some of the many thousands of visitors that Prince Edward Island enjoys . I would li ke to recommend to him that he give consideration to aboli shing many of these billb oards that litter our countryside, and I use the expression advisedl y.

I am not suggesting that information signs say, at the cut-off to a villa ge or a new town be abolished but so often mile after mile along the main highway there are billboards that really mar the tourist attractiveness of this province. MR . ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I think probably except for the complete ban of billb oards which, if I understand the Member for St.

Vital he indicate s Prince Edward Island has undertaken, I would suggest that the Province of Manitoba has probably, over the past several years , probably taken stronger initiat ive than most other highway departmen ts in assuring that bill boards are not placed helter skelter at random throughout the province. And I think he will find the incidence of new billboards appearin g on our highways is indeed very very rare .

Now I will make the distinction there of the jurisdiction unde r which we exercise control over bill boards being the PTH, PR road system throughout the province and contrast that to within city limits of Winnipeg where we are not the traffic authority to establish the billboard signing criterion. But by and large, in rural Manitoba, I would venture to say that year to year very very few billb oards crop up beside our highways. And the intent of the signing committee is to provide some semblance of uni formity and we do.

For communities, for instance, have a standard sign which will indicate the number of services and the variety of services that are available within that community. For instance, the symbol for the hotel or the resta urant symbol, gasoline and service station, washroom, telep hone , hospital sysmbols . Those will become part of our , let 's call it our community signing program, as time procee ds. Those, it is intended , will hopefully replace the desire by many entrep reneurs in the various communities to have their own billboard advertising the ir particular hotel placed a mile outside of the town.

By and large , I think we 'v e had a reasonably good program assuring the pristine beauty of our highways and our countryside. MR . WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I know that the Minister doesn 't have jurisdic­ tion over the urban areas as far as signs are concerned and I was not referring to those. I was referring only to those in the countryside. I accept his statement that there has not been the indiscriminate plac ing of new signs. What I am asking him to do is to get rid of those that do exist . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MR . FILMON : Thank you , Mr . Chairman.

Re ferring to the Highway Traffic Board, I would suggest the Minister give consid eration to changing the powers of the board , particularly with respect to the traffic matters within the City of Winnipeg . It 1 s been my experience in having gone before the Highway Traffic Board on a number of occasions on behalf of the city reque sting changes to the speed limits or requesting installati on of overhead pedes trian corridors, that I can •t - 1528 -

�nday , 24 March, 1980 think of any good reason why the board ought to have jurisdiction over the City of Winnipeg . In particular, the expertise that is being presented is normally that of the city's traffic engineers who are dealin g with urban transportation and traffic problems, and their expertise is probably at least equal that of the provincial technical people who make presen tations to the board and advise the board . In fact, it 's probably greater because they are dealin g with those urban traffic considerations and transportation considerations on a day-to-day basis.

Beyond the advise of the technical expertise of the highway traffic engineers or the urban engineers who make presen tations, the decision as to whether or not to grant a reduction in speed limit or an increase in speed limit or an installa­ tion of an overhead pedestr ian corridor boils down in many respects to a political decision, and there is no question that the Highway Traffic Board ult imately, in considerin g both sides of an issue , sometimes doesn 't always side with the best technical advise given but makes a political decision.

And it seems to me that the control or the political decision-making shoul d rest with an elected body as opposed to an appo inted body such as the Highway Traffic Board, if a politival decision is indeed going to be made after consideration of the best advise avail­ able from the urban transportation enginee rs . And because of that I think it should rest with the elected body who is responsible for all other traffic matters in the City of Winnipeg , and that is the City of Winnipeg Council. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rossmere. MR . SCHROED ER : Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Several weeks ago I had talked to the Minister with respect to the Licence Suspension Appeal Board holding hearings outside of the City of Winnipeg . This is a recent innovation within the last several years, and what is happen ing is that individuals in rural Manitoba are being forced to go to spec ific places ; that is, in eastern Manitoba, people from Pine Falls , people from Al tona are required to go to Steinbach . A lot of those people have no trade connect ions whatsoever with Steinbach . Their connections are with Winn ipeg.

Their connections are with other centres , and in times past they used to be able to go to Winnipeg to have their appeals heard. I am not oppos ing the idea of having a rural ce ntre in which to hold these hearings and in which to give people the opportunity to come to the hearings. But what I am suggesting , however, is that it is unfair to the many rural people who would find it more convenient to come into Winnipeg , to force them to go to Steinbach .

And certainly I have very frequen tly in the past year been involved with people who would have found it more convenien t to come .in to Winni peg than to go to Steinbach , and I'm just wondering whether the Minister would consider changing the policy to give people the freedom of choice. MR . ORCHARD: Well , Mr. Chairman, the member did draw that to my attention and we are trying to see if that is easily resolvable .

There is some problem with schedulin g if you have a strict freedom of choice and maybe what has to be done in each case is where the hearing is schedul ed, possibly having the applicant indicate which centre he would like to have his hearing held in, rather than having, as the member puts it, a freedom of choice for a hearing because you might have difficulty in indeed schedulin g the various hearings if you allo wed strict freedom of ch oice. Maybe you can allow freedom of choice in choosing the location. MR . SCHROEDER : Yes, Mr.

Chairman, that's exactly what I was asking for, freedom of choice in locating the hearing where one goes be fore this particular board . And currently there is in fact an application for these hearin gs. One of the questions on that applic ation is, "preferred choice of hearing" and there 's three locations , Thompson, Brandon and Winnipeg and it does not matter that we put an "X" in the box "Winnipeg" , we find that in fact people are requ ired to go to Steinbach . So I would certainly hope that the Minister would look into that. Another area under this

section dealin g with the Highway Traffic Board is the matter of signs alongside our major highways and this would again come under the jurisdicti on of the Highway Traffic Board. It seems to me that in the last several years there's been a proli feration of advertising materials alongside our major highways and I' m just wondering whether - 1529 -

�nday , 24 March, 1980 there 's been any kind of change in policy . Up until , I wo uld say, 1978 our highways were remarkably free of that sort of material, the billb oards and flashy stuff that you used to see only on American highways, where now it seems seeing them here in Manitoba, and I •m just wondering whether there's been a change in policy with respect to allowing these things alongside our highways. MR. ORCHARD: No, Mr . Chairman. MR.

SCHROEDER : Coul d I then ask the Minister how many applications for such billb oards have there been before that board in the last year, possibly in each of the last five years, so we have some indication as to any trend? MR. ORCHARD: We 've got, Mr. Chairman, a category cal led "miscellaneo us" which has as part and parcel of that category, signs , weight restrictions and limited access designations. In 1978 we had nine appl ications for those combination of miscella neous applic ations and in 1977 we had 17; and in 19 76 we had 15, as we did in 197 5; and 32 in 1974 .

So it would appear as if indeed those kind of applications are decreas ing, part of which is the sign portion of that, and I can 't identify how many of the nine are speci fically signs or how many of the 32 in 1974 are specif ically signs , Mr. Chairman. MR . SCHROED ER : Yes, Mr . Chairman. I' m just wondering whether the Motor Vehicle s Branch has detected any increase in unauthorized signs along our roadways. MR . ORCHARD: There has been no significant increase drawn to our attention, Mr . Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Crescentwood . MR. WARREN STEEN : Yes, thank you , Mr. Chairman.

My colleague, the Member for River Heights, was mentioning to the Minister that he thought that decisions made by the Highway Traffic Board were often political decisions and should be made by elected persons rather than appoi nted persons . I' d like to ask the Minister a political question. Is it his intent to follow the precedent set by his predecessor and that is to continue on with Mr. Mackling as the Chairman of the Highway Traffic Board or perhaps make a new ap pointment at some time in the future? MR. ORCHARD: That is a very political statemen t, Mr. Chairman , or a very political que stion, Mr. Chairman.

MR. STEEN: I said it was political . A MEMBER : Is that a political answer? MR . ORCHARD: That is a pol itical answer . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. He was on the list quite some time ago. MR . URUSKI : Mr. Chairman , the Minister recently granted an increase in taxicab fares in this province after several months of procrastination, after he was, as I understand it , given a recommendation by the board . Could the Minister indicate his reasons for dela y in announc ing that increase? MR . ORCHARD: Well , Mr.

Chairman , whenever one has the rather interesting proposal of agreeing to or disagreeing wi th any rate increase , I think rather than having it branded as "p rocrastination" I think it is incumbent upon the respons­ ibilities of the office to ensure that a number of factors are checked out, in the en d some of those factors to do with the benefits to the user-pub lic ; and if assuring the user-public has been well served and will be well served with a price - 153 0 -

Monday, 24 March, 1980 increase is procrastination, then, Mr . Chairman , that is quite a different defini­ tion of procrastination than what obviously members in the NDP Party have. MR . URUSKI : Mr .

Chairman, then given the Minister 's answer of indicating he wanted to review the reasons for the increase and whether the service will be affected and what effect it will have , could he also indicate what review he und ertook in the case of Grey Goose Bus Lines in their application for reduction of service throughout the province of Manitoba , which affected I would say six or seven Tory constituenc ies in southwestern Manitoba and western Manit oba along with the Interlake and eastern Manitoba?

What studies did he and his office undertake to examine the impact of those kinds of service cuts on the people of rural Manitoba? MR . ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, to-date recommendations for reviewed and renewed scheduling of Grey Goose Bus Lines has not crossed my desk. MR . URUSKI : Well , Mr . Chairman, the same board , as I understand it , or virtually the same members of the board make recommendations. Since the Minister held the recommendation of the taxicab board , could I ask him whether he held the recommendation of the Transport Board? MR . ORCH ARD: Mr .

Chairman, I haven 't received the recommendation of the Transport Board. MR . URUSKI : Yes, Mr . Chairman . The Minister att ended a interprovinc ial Ministers ' meeting on, I believe , on Transportation in Victoria last mo nth. Could he indicate what the nature of the discussions and the outcome of those meetings were in Victoria? MR . ORCHARD: As I indicated earlier on , Mr. Chairman, the establishment of a reciprocity agreement for the trucking industry across Canada was the first item on the agenda.

The Ministers agreed to have presented to them in their annual meeting in Toronto in September a program of pro rate reciprocity. That is being undertaken by the CCMTA to provide us with that proposal . MR . URUSKI : What kind of reciprocity - pro-rate? MR . ORCHARD: Pro-rate reciprocity, Mr. Chairman . As well we , as I mentioned earlier , unanimously urged the federal government to reintroduce their dangerous commodities leg islation in it s existing form without amendment to assure rapid passage of same .

And we discussed and increased the funding level to the CCMTA in order that they may undert ake the presentation of the Pro-Rate Reciprocity Agreement for the trucking industry to our September conferen ce. MR . URUSKI : reciprocity means? Coul d the Minister , for my benefit , explain what pro-rate MR . ORCHARD: Pro-rate recip rocity means operating rights in three provinces will establish travelled in each jurisdiction a percentage of his ju risdictions through which it has running rights. that a trucking firm with on the basis of the mileage licensing fee to each of the MR .

URUSKI : Will that require the trucking firm to have separate lice nces in the three provinces or in the province of which its head office is maintained? MR . ORCHARD: No , Mr . Chairman. MR. URUSKI : Yes, Mr . Chairman . I'd like to know, no what? Will it requ ire nei ther or what will it require then? - 1531 -

Monday , 24 March, 1980 MR . ORCHARD: It will not require the truck to be licensed in each juris­ diction. MR . URUSKI : Mr. Chairman, I' d like to know then , what will it require of the trucker? Or what will be required? MR . ORCHARD: It will require the trucker to purchase a plate in its home ju risdiction.

If it has running rights in other provincial jurisdictions, by virtue of purchasing a home plate and pro-rating the aforesaid fees for that home plate to the jurisdictions in which that truck will operate, that is the require ­ ment of the trucker to obtain li cence in the juri sdictions in which it will operate. MR . URUSKI : Mr . Chairman, is there any discussion with respect to the increasing of weights with respect to int erprovincial haulin g? MR . ORCHARD: Well , Mr .

Chairman, there are no moves to immediately raise the weight limits but a sub-committee of CC MTA is of course always meeting and discuss ing the uni formity of weights, trailer lengths, etc ., etc ., throughout the province and that is an area that is always under discussion with an eye on standardization across Canada. MR . URUSKI : How much of a differential in standard truck weights is there between the three prairie provinces and British Columbia? Are the weights of these four provinces fairly unif orm? MR .

ORCHARD: In speaking of the Trans-canada Highway, there is very little dif ference between the four western provinces. MR . URUSKI : And how does that relate to the province to our east , Ontario? MR . ORCHA RD : Ontario does have a higher TVW , Mr. Chairman. MR . URUSKI : Are there many trucks that come into the province of Manitoba being legal in the province of Ontario and are overwe ight within Manitoba? What procedures do they follow? MR .

ORCHARD: Well , that's a problem that we have but it 's not as much our problem as it turns into the trucker 's problem because he has to become le gal when he reaches the Manitoba border . MR . URUSKI : Mr. Chairman, okay , when the Minister says legal , the Manitoba authorities are not conc erned with what the trucker does with his cargo, the onus is on the individual haul ing from Ontario wes tward to make whatever arrangements are necessary . Is that well known in Ontario? MR . ORCHARD: Yes it is, Mr. Chairman. MR . URUSKI : Fine, thank you. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows . MR. HANUSCHAK : Mr .

Chairman, with respect to signs, the signs advertising services of private entrepreneurs place d on shoulders of highways , who provides the sign? Is it the dep artment or the private entrepreneur whose business is advertised? MR . ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman , in the provision of the standard signing which, as I indicated earlier , will indicate if restaurants are availabl e, if hotel and motel services are available , those signs are available , are standard , and are paid for by the communities reque sting them. - 15 32 -

Monday, 24 March, 1980 MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, I' m not referring to those signs . I am referring to signs naming one particular private entrepreneur advertising his business mounted on the shoulder of the highway. MR . ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, can the Member for Burrows give me an example? MR . HANUSCHAK: There 's one on the Trans-canada Highway, or it was there a few months ago . --( Interjectio n) -- No, not blueberries for sale nor strawberries but advertising a campground , a private campground . I think it 1 s called the Westwinds Campground . MR . ORCHARD: My understanding, Mr. Chairman •• MR.

HANUSCHAK : As I recall it, the name of the campground app ears right on the sign and it's mounted on the shoulder of the road in the similar location to where you would have a sign erected to direct travellers to public ly-owned campgroun ds. MR . ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, those signs are requested of the Department of Tourism. They are provided by my dep artment . We charge the Department of Tourism for the sign and its installation and they charge back the private entrepreneur for the costs that they have incurred from our dep artment. MR .

HANUSCHAK: Well , if I may make a suggestion to the Minister, I think if he would examine those signs, he would find that there is somewhat of a similarity in its appearance between the sign of the private entrepreneur , and I am referring particularly to the campground operator, the private one and the public one. The colors are similar . I can't recall off-hand what other similar­ ities there were on the sign but it would seem to me, Mr.

Chairman, that particu­ larly a traveller from out of province and un familiar with our signing symbols , would not really know whether that's a publicl y-owned campground that's being advertised or a private one . So what I am suggesting to the Minister is that he take that matter und er advisement and that he do come up with some form of a sign which would distingui sh a privately operated facility from a public one . MR. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, I would suggest to the Member for Burrows that any visitors visiting this great province of ours, upon entry of the province, if they were to call intdl a government tourist bureau, that they would pick up information on the tourist facilitie s that are available , plus they may will pick up a copy of the road map . And on that road map is indicated all the government campground s. MR . HANUSCHAK: Well , yes , I believe that it is shown somewhere , al though I doubt There 's a very very tiny one . There is a la rge picture of the previous Minister and I believe of the present one , too.

In fact , I think the present Minister , he 's in color, the present one , which would indicate a little bit of extravagance on the part of this . • • My point is that there should be a clear distinction between the signing of a publicly owned facility and a privately owned facility and that the two signs should not bear the similarity which may, for the benefit of the Chairman · and particularly for the benefit for the Member for Portage , who appears to be at a loss as to what my point is.

But the question was directed from him, and so it appears that there are some members of the committee who are very anxious to know what my point is. That is my point, that I feel that there should be a distinc­ tion between a sign mark indicating the presence of a publicly owned