Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 35 (35th Legislature, 2nd Session)

35-2-35

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Second Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 40 Elizabeth II Publlshed under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XL No. 35-1:30 p.m., THURSDAY, MAY 2, 1991 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Leglslature LIB - Liberal; ND - New Democrat; PC - Progressive Conservative NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMM INGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRI EDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GIL LESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALP INE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MclNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon la Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

LIB ND ND LIB LIB ND LIB ND PC PC PC PC ND ND PC PC PC LIB PC PC ND ND PC PC ND LIB PC ND PC ND LI B ND PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC ND ND

1505 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 2, 1991 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEE DINGS MATTER OF PRIVILEGE Hon. Jim Ernst (Min ister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I wish to rise on a matter of privilege. Mr. Speaker, yesterday, Wednesday, May 1, in response to a question from the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), I provided the House with incorrect information regarding a housing project in Flin Flon. I rise now as this is my first opportunity to correct that information. I stated that the project was not approved because the sponsoring group did not have a site for the project.

Further investigation later yesterday revealed that the information provided to me by Housing staff was incorrect. On review of project details, the Flin Flon group was requested by the Department of Housing to submit an application under the October 19 90 Private Non- Profit Housing Program call for proposals, which they did. This request was made in large part out of a staff concern that there would be insufficient subsidies available under the Seniors RentalStart program to make the project viable.

Applications under the Private Non-p rofit Program, including Flin Flon, are presently being considered for the 19 91 housing program. Mr. Speaker, I apologize to the House for inadvertently providing incorrect information in this instance. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposit ion House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, that would not be a matter of privilege as, according to our rules, it would be followed by a motion.

We certainly would welcome any correction in terms of information, but this matter goes far beyond the clear misinformation that was put on the record yesterday and relates to a matter of clear incompetence and interference on behalf of this minister. While we may accept the correction of the facts, we will not accept the behaviour of this minister- Mr. Sp eaker : Order, please. The honourable member did not have a point of order. Point of Order Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, on a new point of order, I am becoming increasingly concerned about the abuse that the opposition House leader makes out of a point of order. Mr. Speaker, for some period of time now, I have been sitting here watching him stand to his feet and, on the guise of a point of order, entering into debate and making political commentary. I say that is a tremendous abuse of the rules in itself. Certainly every mem ber has the right to rise to his feet on a point of order when procedure is being brought into question. That is a legitimate right of every member of this House.

It is not the legitimate right of any member, particularly the opposition House leader, to rise on the guise of a point of order, enter into political debate and to attack. I say that is incorrect, and I ask the member subsequently-I ask you to bring him to attention indeed if he is to continue to abuse the rules in this fas hion. Mr. Ashton : Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order, if the government House leader had been listening, he would have heard that I was referring directly to the so-called matter of privilege raised by his minister.

If he had advised his minister correctly, he would have advised his minister that it was not in order for the minister to rise on a matter of privilege without a motion to follow. That is clearly against our rules. I rose on that matter, and given the fact that the minister was apparently not dealing with a matter of privilege, I had indicated that, while this side of the House had accepted the fact that the minister was admitting to misinformation, we felt the matter went far beyond that. Those comments related directly to comments that were placed on the record by the minister, Mr.

Speaker, and I have no intention of following from the government House leader's

1506 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 1991 words. I believe we are following the rules. We are asking the government to follow the rules- Mr. Speaker : Order, please. *

(1335) Mr. Kevin La moureux (Second Opposition House leade r): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, we in the Liberal Party welcome the apology from the minister- Mr. Speaker : Order, please. On the same point of order? Mr. Lamoureux: A new point of order. As- Mr. Speaker : Order, please. We will deal with them one at a time. On the point of order raised by the honourable opposition House leader (Mr. Ashton), which refers to the matter of privilege raised by the honourable Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr.

Ernst), the honourable Minister of Urban Affairs does not have a matter of privilege because he did not conclude his remarks with a subs tantive mo tion . The refor e , the honourable minister is out of order there. Point of Order Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, what I was going to suggest, and I guess it should have been to that same point of order, was the fact that the minister did not have a matter of privilege.

I was going to recom me nd that we treat it as a min isterial statement-b ecause he would have been within his right to mak e a min isterial stateme nt of that nature-and allow the two opposition parties an opportunity to respond to the minister. Mr. Speaker : The honourable member for lnkster did not have a point of order. MATTER OF PRIVILEGE Mr. Doug Martlndale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I rise at the first possible opportunity on a matter of personal privilege. Yesterday, May 1, 19 91 , in reply to my question to the Minis ter of Housin g (Mr.

Ernst), the honourable minister said, " ... with respect to the housing project in Flin Flon, the organization there was unable to provide satisfactory evidence that they had a site on which to build, ... " However, Mr. Speaker, I have a letter from Flin Flon Rotary Club to the Honourable Mr. Ducharme, Minister of Housing-f ormerly-that in fact they do have land. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie), that this House call upon the Minister of Housing to apologize to members of this House, the Flin Flon Rotary Club and the Flin Flon Housing Co. for misleading the House and putting false information on the record. Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House leade r): Mr. Speaker, are you seeking advice on this motion or are you ready to rule? Speaker's Rullng Mr. Speaker : I am ready to rule on this issue. On the ma tter of privilege raised by the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), I believe the House has just heard the remarks of the honourable Minister of Urban Affa irs (Mr.

Ernst) where he did indeed apologize to the House for misleading. As far as the Chair is concerned, this concludes remarks and is satisfactory to the Chair that this apology was acceptable, which we thank the honourable minister for. Therefore, the honourable member for Burrows does indeed not have a matter of privilege . •

(1340) TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Glen Flndlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the 19 89 report of the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation. I would like to also table the 19 90 Annual Report of Manitoba Telephone System; and thirdly, I would like to table the Thirty-Seve nth Annual Progress Review for the Faculty of Agriculture, University of Manitoba. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of all memb ers to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have wi th us today His Excellency Emma nuel Gondwe, who is a high commissioner from Malawi.

On behalf of all members, I welcome you here this afte rnoon. Also with us this afte rnoon in the Speaker's Gallery, we have Chief Raymond Swan who is a chief for the Lake Manitoba First Nations and also the chairperson for the First Nations Confederacy and the chairperson for the Interlake Reserves Tribal Council.

May 2, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1507 On behalf of all mem bers, I welcome you here this afte rnoon. Nous tenons a vous signaler la presence, dans la galerie, de trente etudiants de la quatrieme annee de !'Ecole T ache sous la direction de Giselle Poirier. Cette institution est situee dans la circonscription du depute de St. Boniface (M. Gaudry). (Translation) Also with us this af ternoon, seated in the gallery, we have thirty Grade 4 students from T ache School, under the direction of Giselle Poirier. This school is located in the constituency of the member for St Boniface (Mr.

Gaudry). (English) On behalf of all members, I welcome you here this afte rnoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Minister of Housing Resignation Request Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : Mr. Speaker, the Speech from the Throne last October said very clearly in this Chamber that Canadians, and indeed Manitobans, said no to the old style of elite accommodation and closed-door politics. Mr. Speaker, we were worried at the time the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) made the announcem ent of the Minister of Urban Affairs and Housing, when he made his Cabinet shuffle a couple of months ago, we said that returne d us back to the old closed-doors way of doing business. Since that time, we have seen through the torturous revelations of the Pines project that preferential treatment was used for some projects over other projects. Certain information was given to other projects in Charleswood and Flin Flon that no money was available when only one project was being considered for money.

Public money is being used, in our opinion, in a preferential way, contrary to all the information the government had available to it, for one project over other citizens of Manitoba to put public money in. I would ask the Premier whether he will practise what he preached in his Speech from the Throne, and say no to the old-style politics, closed-room preferential dealings and elite accommodations, and remove the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst), so that all Manitobans can have a fair shake at housing projects, just the same way, from one region to another? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr.

Speaker, I have believed, ever since I was a Minister of Housing, that one of the most important things that we do in respect to seniors in this province is to provide afford able housing, one of the areas in which Manitoba has an excellent record and has taken advantage of a whole host of programs that have been put in place by federal and provincial governmen ts throughout the past couple of decades. We have provided fine-quality, fine- stock housing for seniors in communities throughout this province. Whenever I go into sm all rural commun ities everywhere in the province, I visit seniors' homes.

I often find that they enjoy their housing, that they are very proud ofthe -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker, the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) is chirping away. He does not have either the courtesy or the courage to speak when he is entitled to speak, and he chirps away from his desk. He has not been asking questions on this issue. Others have been carrying the issue for him, because he knows that this government has a record of fairness in dealing across the board with all of them. The Leader of the Opposition -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker : Order, please. The honourable First Minister, to finish his response.

Mr. Fllmon : The Leader of the Opposition knows full well that this government has approved a number of projects under Seniors RentalStart. Since that very throne speech, approval was given to a project in Dauphin. I did not hear any complaints from members opposite over that. Approval was made to a project in Niverville. I did not hear any complaints from members opposite over that. You have heard in this House of the tremendous demand that there is from seniors in the St. James-Assi niboia area who have been lacking projects for seniors' housing for some time, who came out in the hundreds-- "(1 345) Mr.

Jerry Storie (Flln Flon): Why did the minister approve and solicit it then? Tell the truth. Mr. Fllmon : It was not solicited, Mr. Speaker, and I would implore the member for Flin Flon not to put incorrect information on the record-- Mr. Speaker : Order, please.

1508 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 1991 Mr. Doer: When I asked the Premier a similar question on Monday, the Premier answered that the zoning by-laws in the City of Winnipeg that were passed were the consideration of the land-use policies that the government utilized to make this decision. Winnipeg International Airport Report Recommendations Mr.

Gary Doer (leader of the Opposition): After that date, June of 19 90, the government received a copy of an advisory committee for the protection of the Winnipeg International Airport, July of 1 990, that had 23 recomme ndations against high-density projects, that indicated a number of economic factors to consider for the Winnipeg International Airport. The government received this document after the zoning decision of the City of Winnipeg.

I would ask the Premier whether he considered the information he had received about the economic impact on the International Airport when he went ahead and supported his Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst) on the approval of this project, or did he neglect this information in awarding the project that the Minister of Housing was obviously so intent on getting approval for? -(interjection)- Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Scattered applause. Mr. Speaker, I repeat for the memb er for Concordia, that project went through extensive public hearings and was approved by the City of Winnipeg with respect to zoning and land use.

I repeat, that project is supported by the St. James Chamber of Commerce. I repeat, that project is supported by countless community groups and, in fact, has tremendous support amongst seniors who want relevant housing in St. James-Assiniboia. That project represents approximately 80 units of housing that are further away from the airport than are thousands of other existing units of housing. The point of the matter is to have a long-range development plan, an amendment to review by the City of Winnipeg.

That is what we have asked for so that, in the long term, we have plans with respect to various other areas of access to the airport. We continue to be dealing with a number of interested parties in having use of that airport, the Winnipeg International Airport, and we continue to find a great deal of interest in people who will be making use of that. The reality is that the project met criteria put forward in the program that was developed by the NDP, me t the criteria.

Numb er 2, it also has tremendous local community support, and No. 3, it has hundreds of people who have shown an interest in investing in the project to become tenants in the project. Under all those circums tances, the decision was made. Pines Project Approval Justification Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, nowhere in the three criteria that the First Minister me ntioned did he mention at all the transportation studies, the Advisory Committee for the Protection of the Winnipeg International Airport.

The number of recommendations and the analysis in that report talk about the economic loss to Manitoba and Winnipeg if that airport is jeopardized. Every recomme ndation in this report recommends lower density, lower development, more protection for the area around the airport, not greater density, greater housing and greater encroachment upon the airport area. Every statement in this document argues against the Premier's decision.

I would ask the Premier why he chose to go with this housing project when other housing projects were available for seniors, obviously needed, other community-based projects were needed, when all the evidence in terms of the economic potential for Winn ipeg and Man itoba argued against this proposal being approved by his government? Hon. Ga ry Fllmon (Premier) : We have consistently taken the position that the City of Winnipeg has the authority to approve projects, zoning, variances, and so on, within the parameters of Plan Winnipeg.

This was not contrary to Plan Winnipeg, Plan Winnipeg that was approved when the member for Concordia was the minister of urban development. This was not contrary to the city's wishes, despite the fact that all those criticisms contained in that report were placed before the public hearing process in 19 89. The City of Winnipeg took all of that into account and still approved the project. All of those arguments were made at the public hearing process. Mr. Speaker, despite that, the City of Winnipeg approved the project.

The project falls within the parameters of the program, Seniors RentalStart, that was developed and criteria created by the NDP government. In the normal course of approvals, it was approved, as was Dauphin, as was Niverville.

May 2, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1509 *

(1350) St. James Rotary Club letter of Invitation Mr. Doug Martlndale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, the last few weeks has brought the integrity of this government into disrespect. This government cannot be honest and straightforward. My question is to the Minister of Government Services. I have a letter written by the minister, dated September 24, 1990, in which he notes that the Flin Flon Rotary project would appear to be complete, but that, quote: Budgetary availability is limited.

Can the Minister of Government Services tell the House why, one month later, in October of 1990, he was phoning his political friends and asking the St. James Rotary to apply for the same program? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Government Services): Mr. Speaker, throughout the process of accepting different projects throughoutthe province, like the one in Transcona, the one in Dauphin, the one in Niverville, we do send letters out to people and tell them to apply under different, other programs. That letter went out. We told them to apply under another program. Mr.

Speaker, for the record, there is no way that this particular minister solicited any information to any project after that date. Seniors RentalStart Flln Flon Appllcatlon Mr. Doug Martind ale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Housing tell the House why the Flin Flon Rotary Club was told in September 1990 that there was no money available in Seniors RentalStart and that they should reapply under the Private Non-profit Program? Hon. Jim Ernst {Minister of Housing): Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated yesterday, I was not the Minister of Housing at that time, so I cannot do other than transmit information provided to me by the Department of Housing. I am advised by the Department of Housing, as I indicated in my statement first off today, that they had a concern that there would be insufficient, or could be insufficient, subsidies available under the RentalStart program for that particular project, particularly because of the fact that it is built on rock, as most buildi ngs are in Flin Flon. There is considerable blasting that would be required to service the site. Mr.

Speaker, the department asked them to submit an application under the Private Non- Profit Housing Program because the subsidies there are greater, considerably greater, than they are under the RentalStart program . To make the project viable, to provide afford able housing for the citizens of Flin Flon, that request was made. Charleswood Application Mr.

Doug Martlndale (Burrows): Can the Minister of Housing tell the House, when these two groups chose the Seniors RentalStart program, had their funding all in place, figured out how it was going to work, why the Charleswood-Tuxedo housing project and the Flin Flon Rotary were advised there was no money in the Seniors RentalStart when, at a later date, money was made available from the same program to Rotary Pines? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr.

Speaker, with respect to the Charleswood project, which again occurred well prior to my becoming the Minister of Housing, I can indica te that the Charleswood-Tuxedo lions Club was unable to garner suffi cient interest, signed-up interest, in the project. The program requ irements require 90 percent of the units to be signed up for prior to any approval to be given. They had considerably less than 50 percent of the people signed up. They were not told it was a question of funding; they were told it was a question that they had insufficient people available to occupy the units.

When there is no demand, we are obviously not going to approve a project. •

(1355) Plnelmuta Place Fee-for-Service Contract Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Attorney General. Mr. Speaker, I am deeply saddened today, because I wonder how man y times the white com mun ity is going to deny the legitim ate aspirations of our aboriginal peoples. For five years, dedicated people in the aboriginal community have been working towards the achievement of a culturally sensitive Native Harmony and Restoration Cent re . For five years, they have been encouraged, first by the previous government and,

1510 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 1991 more recently, by this government, towards the achievement of their goals. For five years, they have been investing their own dollars to the tune of about one-half million dollars, funds not easily come by to our aboriginal peoples. Will the Minister of Justice tell this House why, in a letter dated April 30, the government turned its back on the aboriginal community that is working towards this notable achievement? Hon.

James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The characterization of this whole matter by the Leader of the second opposition party is quite inaccurate, Mr. Speaker. I have before me the letter referred to by the honourable Leader of the second party. I have before me, also, a letter dated January 29, 1990, well over a year ago, Mr. Speaker, where it was set out that-and I will read the paragraph of the letter if you wish, your Honour. I must, however, point out that the provincial position is that we will pay for services provided at Pineimuta Place on a contract-for -services basis.

It is the federal government which will have to provide the necessary funding to develop those services. I believe that to be a very defensi ble position to take. On April 30, in the letter referred to by the honourable member, I set out the fact that the model that in its present form is not something that has been developed to the point where we are able to have that kind of a contractual relationship. Mr. Speaker, I might be given another opportunity next time around to go a little further into this for the honourable member. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr.

Speaker, it is very clear that, in the letter of January 29, 1990, he indicated a willingness to pay for per diem services. In the letter dated April 30, 1991, he shows an unwillingness to pay per diem services. In light of his own statements, in which he has said that the government caucus will do everything they can to make the case for aboriginal peoples in this cou ntry, for their ed uca ti onal ri ghts and requirements, why is he going back on his own words and not now supplying the per diem rates on a guarantee to this particular project? Mr.

Mccrae: I thank the honourable Leader of the second party for that question, because I am then given the opportunity to tell a little more about this particular matter. I wrote that letter in January of 1990. The advisors, the consultants to the Interlake Reserve Tribal Council approached me at a later date to ask me to expand just a little bit on that particular commitment so that they could use that commitment in their attempts to leverage money from the federal government. The question of our commitment to a per diem fee-for-service contractual relationship was subject to details being worked out.

The consultants had asked me to say to the federal people that it was simply a matter of details to be worked out. I want the honourable member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs) to know that the details we are talking about are not minor details; by no stretch of the imagination are they minor details. I made that known to the consu ltants. I made that known to Chief Swan and other chiefs from IRTC. I made that known to Grand Chief Phil Fontaine that these details are not minor.

Does the honourable Leader of the second party know that the difference in the per diem rate that we are talking about is the present rate of about $30 per inmate per day? The Pineimuta Place proposal suggests a per diem rate of about $126 a day. That is not a minor detail, Mr. Speaker. •

(1400) Aborlglnal Self-Government Government Commitment Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the Premier said earlier in this week, in Estimates, that he cannot commit to self-go vernment as a principle, because he does not know what it means. Well, this is what it means. It means letting aboriginal peoples take charge of their community when they are in trouble and treating them in a culturally sensitive and holistic manner.

Will the First Minister, in light of his commitments in the past to working towards the achievement of more rights for our aboriginal peoples, investigate this matter and undertake a full review, because the aboriginal community considers the actions of the Minister of Justice to be a betrayal? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): This government achieved a numb er of pr ecedent -set ting agr eeme nts with respe ct to the abori gin al community to devolve services into their control and authority. Working together with the Swampy Cree Tribal Council, established, for instance, the first

May 2, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1511 Bachelor of Nursing programs for northern and Native Manitobans, devolved authority over gaming to The Pas Indian Band, for instance, devolved authority for management of natural resources in a number of full management projects of natural resources, is working on taxation proposals with Scanterbury and many others to devolve authority to make them masters of their own destiny within areas of concern and service to their people.

We are working very strongly towards that, but it all has to be done within a framework of fiscal capability and constitutional responsibility. When we are looking at numbers, such as the Minister of Justice (Mr.

McCrae) just put on the record, which are costs that are almost four times what we are normally dealing with, $11 million over five years, surely, the leader of the second opposition party understands that we have a responsibility to live within the fiscal capability that we have and that, particularly where these are areas of primary federal constitutional responsibility, we ought not to be held responsible to just throw $11 million-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable First Minister that answers to questions be as brief as possible. Publlc Schools Act Review Publlc Participation Mr.

Dave Chomlak (Klldonan): Mr. Speaker, one of my major concerns wit h the mi nis ter's announcement of a review of The Public Schools Act is that it may or may not be open. In the past, this government has not listened to parents, students and teachers on the ESL or on the Cartwright program, for example. It is imposing a funding formula without the taxpayers having a say. Will this minister really listen and invite public participation, or is this an attempt to deflect criticism away from the government's cutbacks and taxing policies on property tax owners? Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I thought that the member for Kildonan was present in the news room this morning when the news announcement was being made, but obviously he must have missed something in the announcement. Mr. Speaker, this morning's news conference outlined very clearly that the four -member panel was going to be meeting with the commu nities in Manitoba, rural, northern and urban Manitoba, to look at changes that will be required to The Public Schools Act. I indicated very clearly that Mr.

Roy White, a very known educator in this province, indeed a member who has served on MAST, and a consultant in education now, is going to be heading up this panel that will go throughout the province to hea r wha t Manitobans and organiz ati ons throughout this province have to say about what they would like to see within the school act so that it meets the needs of today's society. Dept. of Education and Training Gag Order Mr.

Dave Chomlak (Klldonan): In light of the minister's comments, I am wondering why this minister has placed a gag order on all people in the department from talking to the media, MLAs or the public, as far as I know, for that matter. I would like to table in the House a copy of a gag order from the Deputy Minister of Education saying that the media and the MLAs cannot be talked to by anyone from his department. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minis ter of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, we do have a communications director within the Department of Education through whom all the communications- indeed, all of the media know that they are to get their information through that source. It is not a new policy. It is a policy that was fol lowed by the form er government. Indeed, it is a way of ensuring that the information that is being given out to media, to others and to the public is consistent and is handled in an effective way. Dept. of Education and Training Gag Order Mr. Dave Chomlak (K lld onan): My final supplementary is to the Premier.

When I asked the Premier about censorship by this minister on keeping people from attending a public conference, he said the government does not condone censorship. That is in Hansard, March 15. Does this Premier condone his minister's gag order on the staff from Education and Training? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member's question seeks an opinion. Therefore , it is out of order. Will the honourable member kindly rephrase his question, please?

1512 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 1991 Mr. Chomlak: Is it government policy on the part of this governmen t to have gag orders on departments? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Absolutely not, Mr. Speaker. I can recall full well that the Pawley government regularly placed gag orders. The New Democrats, who sit there hypocritically on that side of the House, regularly placed gag orders on their staff throughout their period of time in government. They even gagged their backbenchers because they were so embarrassed by what came out of their mouths. Plnelmuta Place Fee-for-Service Cont ract Mr.

Cllf Evans (Interlake): My question is also for the Minister of Justice. The development of the Native Harmony and Restoration Centre is an attempt to establish a comprehensive and multidisciplinary demonstration of the traditional Ojibway peacemaker role. The development of this centre, Pineim uta Place, has been supported by all levels of government since 198 6, when the NOP Minister of Comm unity Services then agreed to pur cha se services developed by the centre on a fee-for-se rvice basis. I am willing to table that letter in the House today. My question is for the minister.

The minister talks that costs are the reason for not supporting this program. I ask this minister, in light that Native people in the system now are overrepresented in jails, why was this contract not honoured? Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I do appreciate the honourable member putting on the record that the policy of the previous government was precisely the same policy as the one this government has, and that is to contract on a fee-for-service basis for services supplied to the government of Manitoba.

The honourable member, though, ought to put on the record what cost he thinks this government should be agreei ng to wi th regard to a contractual arrangement. If the honourable mem ber is suggesting that the per diem rate ought to reflec t the cost of development of this centre, please let him say so now. Consultations Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake): Mr.

Speaker, I ask this minister: Will he tell this House why there was no consultation with the aboriginal groups involved before rejecting this proposal, why no one from NHRC was asked to pa rtici pate in the federal-pro vincial working group established to review the justice projects in Manitoba, and why no one from the NHRC was even informed that such a committee had been struck and was meeting to discuss their proposal? Hon.

James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I do not think I heard the honourable memb er say that it is the policy of the present New Democratic Party represented in this House that fee-for -service contractual arrangements paid fo r by the Province of Manitoba ought to reflect the development costs of Piniemuta Place. I would like to hear what his comment is on that. Mr. Cllf Evans: . . . consultation, I ask, why not? Fee-for-Service Contract Mr.

Cllf Evans (Interlake): Will this minister now explain to the House why he has provided no leadership on this issue and outline his reasons, besides cost, for rejecting the proposal? •

(1410) Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I think that was the honourable mem ber's last question, so I guess we are not going to get his position on this matter, Mr. Speaker. I have- Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House le ader): Yes, Mr. Speaker, it is not in order for the minister to engage in rhetorical questions in an effort to avoid answering very specific questions that were asked by the member. I would ask you to have him called to order, and I ask that you request he answer the question asked by the member for Interlake on behalf of his constituents. Hon.

Clayton Manness (Government House leader): Mr. Speaker, I would ask the member to cite anywhere in Beauchesne that says that the minister, in responding to a question, cannot provide a rhetorical question of his own in his response. Mr. Speaker, in reading the rules, I have never seen a prohibition against the type of question asked by the Minister of Justice. Mr. Spea ker: The honour able member for Thompson did not have a point of order.

May 2, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1513 *** Mr. Mccrae: Until we hear otherwise, Mr. Speaker, from the honourable memb er, we will assume that the New Democratic Party policy on this issue has changed, from the one which is our policy now, to a policy that says, developmental costs for Piniemuta Place or any other installation ought to be borne by the Province of Manitoba through fee-for-se rvice contractual relationships. With regard to consultation, Mr.

Speaker, I can tell the honourable member and all members of this House that I have been available to the consultants and to the chiefs of the Interlake Tribal Council on occasions when that kind of consultation has been called for. I have had repeated meetings with representatives like that. I have also discussed this matter with Grand Chief Phil Fontaine, and I have made my concerns well known to all of those people with whom I have met. Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Mlnorco Sale Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Energy and Mines.

We learned this morning that Minorco, a U.S. company, has put an offer to purchase Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting for $100 million. This is potentially a very good news proposition, but we have some questions for the minister responsible for mines. Contingent upon the sale is $80 million of money from the Government of Canada and from the government of Manitoba to assist HBM&S in environmentally upgrading some of the facilities in the mine at Flin Flon. Can the mi nister tell us if he has had any discussions with HBM&S, and how secure is the $55 million that is required to consummate this deal? Hon.

Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, we have been negotiating with Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting for some three years on this loan agreement. As far as we are concerned, from the Manitoba government, our offer has been on the table for some 18 to 24 months. It has not changed in that period of time. As far as we are concerned, the deal will go through, and the news we hear today will only enhance the agreement with HBM&S. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, we understand that the head offi ce of the company that has made the offer to purchase is actually in Denver.

Can the min ister tell us if he has had any conversations, or can he guarantee to the House that there will not be any head office jobs lost? Head office has recently moved from Winnipeg to Flin Flon, and can the minister assure us that those jobs will be securely placed in Manitoba? Mr. Neufeld: Mr. Speaker, I think it is rather unfair to expect me to have an answer to that question the very morning that an announcement has been made by Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting and Minorco. As far as we are aware, the operation of Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting will not change.

We have no knowledge of whether or not their headquarter staff is going to be changed. As far as we are concerned and until we know different, the operations of Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting will go on as is. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, we understandt hatthe offer expires on June 1. That means it will be necessary for the minister to give his guarantees of the $55 million to the company by then. Can the minister give us those assurances in the House today? Mr. Neufeld: Mr. Speaker, there are four parties that come to the table in this agreement.

There are the banks, there is Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting, there is the federa l government, there is the Manitoba government. As I said earlier, the Manitoba government's position has remained unchanged for some 18 to 24 months, and any delay in the finalization of these negotiations cannot be placed at the feet of the Manitoba government. Seniors RentalStart Flln Flon Appllcatlon Mr. Jerry Storie (Flln Flon): Mr. Speaker, we, in this Chamber, have known that the integrity of this government is in question for a long time.

Now the people in Flin Flon and other parts of the province are beginning to understand. The Flin Flon Rotary Club applied in March of 1990 for a housing project that is much needed in the community of Flin Flon. On August 3, after a meeting with the then Minister of Housing, the Flin Flon Rotary had not been told, it had not been suggested, that RentalStart was not the appropriate vehicle to apply for housing. In fact, in a letter dated to the minister after a meeting with the Minister of

1514 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 1991 Housing and two other cabinet ministers, they say, as far as we are aware, our application meets all the preliminary requirements. The Rotary Club has the experience and has the land. Can this Minister of Housing, the current Minister of Housing, explain to the people of Manitoba why the needs of the senior citizens in Flin Flon should not take priority over the needs of a project which has been described as a boondoggle by virtually everybody in the city of Winnipeg? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): I thought, Mr.

Speaker, that I had adequately explained earlier the circums tances surrounding the application by the Flin Flon Rotary Club. As a matter of fact, I spoke with Mr. Ahmad yesterday, the chairman of the Rotary Club. He indicated to me that he had resubm itted his application under the Private Non-Pr ofit Housin g Progr am . Staff, in going through the application, had some concerns with regard to the cost and the ability of the subsidies to make the project viable. Mr. Ahmad is aware and looks forward to the fact that, under the current Non-Pr ofit Housing Program considerations, his project will be chosen.

Those are under consideration at the present time. We will make a decision, Mr. Speaker, some time in the next while. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, the fact that this minister cleared the decks to support a project of his political friends does not negate the fact that the people in Flin Aon have not been dealt with honestly. After the August 3 letter, I had another letter from the Minister of Housing, dated September 24, still talking about the application under the RentalStart program. There was no honesty in the dealings of this government with the people of Flin Flon. My question is to the Minister of Housing.

In a project where three times the number of applicants compared to the number of units that were going to be built had already been secured by this group, how can the minister not believe that this is a priority for the people of Manitoba and the people of Flin Flon? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, I did not say it was not a priority. I did not say that the people of Flin Flon will or will not get a housing project. That matter, as I indicated earlier, is under consideration. Mr. Storie: My final question is: How long does it take for this government to get its House in order, to know what it is doing and to be honest?

Six months after the application, this minister is still misleading the people-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House le ader): Mr. Speaker, the member clearly said: "How long does it take for this government to get honest?"-to use his word. He said, to get its House in order, to get honest That is the greatest im putation of motive s, sugges ting tha t the government totally is dishonest. The member is cert ainly using the most unp arliam entary of languag e . I ask him to withd raw totally his statement. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House leader): Mr.

Speaker, if I might be of assistance to yourself and the government House leader, dishonest has been indicated, depending on the context, as being both parliamentary and unparliamentary. I would suggest to you, given the actions of this government on the Rotary Pines project and the Flin Flon Rotary Club, that it is totally, in this context, in order and an accurate assessment of this government. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable government House leader did not have a point of order, but I would remind all honourable members, one more time, that we should pick and choose our words very carefu lly. *** Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Housing, to respond. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, let me repeat, the Non-Pr ofit Housing Program, as the member should know, having been in cabinet when his party was in power, is a subject of a partnersh ip. It is a partnership between the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and Manitoba Housing.

Annually, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation provides an allocation of units to this province. That allocation came within the last month or six weeks. We are in the process now, knowing what our allocation is, of reviewing those projects that were submitted to us. We have in excess of 100 of those projects. We will be analyzing those projects in terms of desire, need, capability, et cetera, and when that has been concluded, we will make allocations. *

(1420) May 2, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1515 Farming Industry Debt Crisis Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) has repeatedly stonewalled on our questions regarding GRIP and the need to improve the program to meet the needs of all the farmers of Manitoba to deal with the inequities and unfairness in the program. Fortunately, he will not be able to say, later on, that these concerns were not raised with him and that no one complained, no one raised concerns. The fact is, we will hold him accountable in this House.

I ask the minister today: With the current debt crisis that exists and the cash flow crisis this spring, as a result of the nondeficiency announcement that was made by the federal minister just two weeks ago, can the minister indicate to this House and explain to this House his actions in response to that nonannouncement, in light of the debt crisis that exists, and whethe r he has asked for debt adjustment legislation from the federal government as well as an immediate deficiency payment which was not announced two weeks ago and is needed? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr.

Speaker, the member talks about a debt crisis in Manitoba. I would like to inform the member that, through the mediation board, a lot of debt situations have been resolved to the farmers' benefit, with the vast majority of farmers being able to stay on their farm in some restructured fashion. The overall debt load of the Manitoba farm community has dropped from about $2.1 billion three years ago to about $1 .8 billion today. That is a fair response of the farm community in terms of reducing their debt load, and clearly there is a cash shortfall at this period of time.

Last fall, we called upon the federal government for interest-free cash advance, which they have put in place. They have announced that interest-free cash advances will be in place again for 1991. They have announced a reduction in the premiums for GRIP. They have announced a number of initiatives that are going to help the Manitoba farm community, and the government of Manitoba has put some $43 million in its present budget to deal with the situation of Manitoba farmers in terms of paying the GRIP premium. Farm Protection Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, how can this minister stand in this House and say there is no problem out there, the debt situation is easing and that no deficiency payment is needed? If the minister is not going to ask for a deficiency payment, which he is indicating to this House, will he, to deal with the debt crisis out there now, proclaim those sections ofThe Family Farm Protection Actthat deal with moratoriums to enable farmers, who are now being pressed off their land despite the fact that the mediation board is there, to put in place this debt legislation, The Family Farm Protection Act, to protect the farmers? Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. Glen Flndlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I would like to make the member aware that farmers outright own 80 percent of their equities, so there is not a horrible debt crisis out there. They own 80 percent of their equity. Many farmers are well positioned to deal with the situation they are facing today. We have constantly talked about this problem, and farmers do not like to come back every year and beg for an ad hoe payment, year in and year out.

They came forward over a year ago through a task force process saying, we want some structured predictability to our future; that is why we want GRIP; that is why we want a safety net mechanism that will allow us to have some predictability in terms of our price support. Farmers want that. Farmers have it in place, and we are very pleased to be able to put it in place for them. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Mr.

Speaker: On Tuesday, April 23, I took under advisement a poin t of order raised by the honourable government House leader alleging that the words, and I quote: "we cast aspersions on the Minister of Agriculture" used by the Leader of the Second Opposition during Question Period cast asper sions on the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay). The Leader of the Second Opposition indicated at that time that she would withdraw the words when the minister withdrew the allegation that she was casting aspersions on Manitoba farmers.

I had already ruled that the Minister of Agriculture had not imputed unworthy motives by his use of the words mentioned. In fact, the Leader of the second

1516 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 1991 opposition party came perilously close to reflecting on a ruling of the Chair. I would refer members to a Beauchesne citation on language which, I believe, also is relevant to the question of imputation of motives. It is citation 486, and I quote: "It is impossible to lay down any specific rules in regard to injurious reflections uttered in debate against particular members.

Much depends upon the tone and manner and intention of the person speaking, sometimes on the degree of provocation which the member speaking had received from the person alluded to." In this case, I am ruling that there was no imputation of unworthy motives and that there was no point of order. However, as I have asked many times before, members must be careful in the choice of their words in the heat of debate or Question Period. Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I would like to apologize to the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay), because I think it is appropriate.

I was shocked by the use of his words, and that is what led me to do what I did. Quite frankly, that is no excuse for using unparliamentary language. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would like to thank the honourable Leader of the second opposition party, but I had already ruled that there was no point of order. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, before I move the motion to go into Committee of Supply, I would ask you to petition the House to determine as to whether or not we might waive private members' hour today. Mr.

Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private members' hour? Is it agreed? No. There is no agreement. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, we then will continue to deal with the Estimates in the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship and also the Department of Education and Training. I therefore move, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion presented. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE Mr. Jerry Storie (Flln Flon): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to use this opportunity, as the rules provide, to grieve. Mr. Speaker, it is sometimes frustrating to be a member of the opposition and not have the kind of open opportunity you would like to have to ask the questions. It is unfortunate, as well, or perhaps fortunate from an opposition perspective, that this government is so incompetentthat it leaves so many targets that my colleagues in every area of responsibility continue to have endless questions about the bungling of this government. Mr.

Speaker, I wanted to take this opportunity, after the tabling of this budget, after the fiasco we have just seen with the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst) with respect to the Flin Ron Rotary Club senior housing project, to express my dismay, my frustration and my anger at the current government's arrogance and attitude toward the people of northern Manitoba, and indeed the people of the province of Manitoba. I wanted to start by talking about the current fiasco that the former Minister of Housing (Mr.

Ducharme) and the current Minister of Housing are involved in, because regardless of the excuses we have heard from the Minister of Housing, this is and has been a deceptive exercise from the beginning. There can be no doubt in anyone's mind that back-room politics have determined who received funding under the RentalStart program in this instance, and in at least one other instance, Mr. Speaker, and that is lamentable.

It is also regrettable that the First Minister has chosen, on too many occasions, to ignore the unacceptable behaviour of his ministers and chosen to do nothing, has chosen to take the coward's way out and not respond to the questionable-and perhaps that is the polite way to phrase it-behaviour of his ministers. *

(1430) I want to say again that this project, the Flin Flon housing project, has a long history. The group that is involved in proposing this project has an excellent record. The Rotary Club already operates seniors housing in the community of Flin Flon. They applied in good faith to the RentalStart program on March 1 of 1 990 after doing considerable groundwork in the community of Flin Flon, determining that there was a need for seniors housing. In fact, in their initial

May 2, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1517 survey of interested seniors, there was three times the demand for the number of units that the Rotary Club was proposing to build. That is an initial survey-an incredible number of people. Mr. Speaker, I want to point out to the Minister of Housing, who has chosen to support his political friends, that unlike the people in Flin Flon, who have many different housing styles available to them as a matter of choice, those choices are not available to the people of Flin Flon.

In Flin Flon, there was no equivalent project to the project that the Rotary Club was proposing to build. So we have a group legitimately believing that the government was sincere, applying under the RentalStart program in March of 19 90, believing that their application would be dealt with in an honourable and straightforward fashion. Was the government honourable? Was the process legitimate? Was it above board? Well, Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt today that the answer is no. The application was on hand. The Department of Housing officials had contacted the Rotary.

They had made the necessary information available to them. On August 3, after meeting directly with the Minister of Housing-not some official, but the Minister of Housing-the chairperson of the Rotary wrote to the minister and said, as far as we are aware, our application meets all the preliminary requirements. The Rotary Club is a necessary experience as well- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would ask the honourable Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Dacquay) to come take the Chair, please. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) Mr.

Storie: It has not only the experience, but the manpower and finances, and I quote, the company owns appropriately zoned land necessary for this proposal. Madam Deputy Speaker, here is a group of people who were trying to do something for the community of Flin Flon, thought they were dealing in a legitimate way with the government of Manitoba and as of August 3 believed everything was on track. He had met with the Minister of Housing and two other ministers of the government.

They received a letter dated September 24 from the then Minister of Housing in which he says, while the staff have confirmed that your organization's project proposal would appear to be complete, we must advise that our budget process is under review. As you can appreciate, there are a number of worthwhile projects on file while the budgetary availability is limited. Madam Deputy Speaker, this is some month and a half now, almost two months after the August meeting.

The Flin Flon groups still believe that the RentalStart program is available for them, that their project meets their criteria, that they are going to get funding, but what happens. The Minister of Housing then starts soliciting. I do not know what other word you can call it, when he calls up another group and says, maybe you should apply. It just so happens that the person he called is also a political friend of the individual. Some months later, of course, we find that Flin Flon is not getting a project either under RentalStart or the Non-Profit Housing Program which they have been channeled into.

Now we find that the project is going to the political friend of the Minister of Housing. Madam Deputy Speaker, what is even more frustrating is in a community where there is significant need for senior housing, where there is no like project in the commu nity, no like accommodation for seniors, in a community where the appropriate land is zoned, where there are no zoning objections, where there are no apparent conflicts, where there is significant demand, the minister chooses to fund a project of his political friends in an area where there should be no such project.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we have heard a litany of groups come forward and say this project should not have been approved, from the Chamber of Commerce to the airport to residents groups. There can be no justification for the treatment, the way this government has treated the people of Flin Flon, the seniors of Flin Flon and the Rotary Club of Flin Flon. Madam Depu ty Speake r, this is simply unacceptable. It is unacceptable. It shows a level of incompetence and a level of ineptitude, a level of arrogance that is unheard of. It is equally frustrating to see the Minister of Housing (Mr.

Ernst) get up and apologize when he has put misinformation on the record only when he is caught. He seems to have no regard, no regard for the feelings and the work that is being done by groups that are not affiliated with the minister himself.

1518 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 1991 Madam Deputy Speaker, it would be nice to think that this was the only slight, the only injustice this government has perpetrated on the people of northern Manitoba. Clearly, it is not. I will talk in a minute about the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger) who has begun his assault on the people of northern Manitoba. I should say, it is quite ironic. The minister is wagging his finger at me. The minister was one of the people involved in the meeting on August 2 or August 3 in Flin Flon.

Madam Dep uty Speaker, the Minis ter of Highways and Transportation and the Minister of Northern Affairs and Rural Development (Mr. Downey) were also in attendance at this meeting when the Minis ter of Housing met with some representatives of the Rotary Club and perhaps some other Conservative colleagues. This is not the only slight. The fact is that this government has turned its back on northern Manitoba in the most callous and serious way. Perhaps the more insidious attack on the people of northern Manitoba has come at the hands of the Minis ter of Health (Mr.

Orchard), who has introduced for the first time, a user fee on the people of northern Manitoba, a user fee of $50. Every time a person who needs medical attention-and I quote-needs medical attention, the people of Manitoba are going to pay a $50 user fee. Madam Deputy Speaker, I was flabbergasted to say the least when the Minister of Health and the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) attempted to defend this policy by suggesting somehow that the people of Flin Flon, the people of northern Manitoba had equal access to medical services, that somehow the Northern Patient Transportation Program, in itself, made up for all of the differences between the vast distances that people in Flin Flon, Snow Lake, Shamattawa, Churchill and the rest of the area covered by the Northern Patient Transportation Program have to cover. Madam Deputy Speaker, nothing could be further from the truth.

The fact is that the people of northern Manitoba, to access adequate medical treatment, to access the best diagnostic services that the people of Manitoba have come to expect costs them considerably more than any other Manitoban to access equivalent services. The people of South Indian Lake, as an example, have no hospital in their community. To access any kind of medical services, to have a wound sutured, to have a prenatal test done, the residents of South Indian Lake have to use the Northern Patient Transportation Program.

Pregnant women, people with diabetes, senior citizens who want to get some kind of medical attention are now going to be asked to pay $50 every time they use the Northern Patient Transportation Program. Madam Deputy Speaker, it is not a simple matter of getting a friend to drive you to the nearest hospital, to the nearest doctor. There are no roads in many of the communities in northern Manitoba. They have no alternative but to use air services. They have no alternative but to use the Northern Patient Transportation Program.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the people in northern Manitoba routinely-routinely, routinely, routinely pay $1 00 to $1 50 to access a single medical service available to 600,000 people in this province free. Now, increasingly people are being asked not only to travel to Winnipeg for CAT scans or IMRs or mammography scans or ultrasound, they are now being routinely asked to stay over another day because the line-ups are too long, the waiting lists are too long, they cannot get in for treatment.

They cannot see the doctor on the appointed day, so they now have to incur, not only the hotel accommodation costs for one day and the food costs, they have to incur those costs for a day or two days. Madam Deputy Speaker, I have written to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). He should not be naive about what health care costs northern Manitobans, but he apparently is. I wrote to him recently about a patient who was covered by the Air Ambulance and the Nor thern Patient Transp ortation.

Not including the costs of accommodation and food, that individual received a bill for almost $400 of extra costs that other Manitobans do not have to pay. For people who have serious illnesses, for people who require continuing medical care, medical treatment, the costs of this user fee is not going to be $50 on an annual basis, but it is going to be hundreds of dollars, perhaps as much as $500 or $600 or more. *

(1440) Madam Deputy Speaker, we are not talking necessarily about people who can afford $50 the first time, let alone on a continuing basis. Many of

May 2, 199 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1519 the people in my constituency, in the Flin Flon constituency in northern Manitoba are poor. Many of them survive on subsistence lifestyle. Many of them do not have acc ess to employment opportunities. This measure, this user fee on Northerners is going to not only cause hardship, it is going to cause deaths. People are going to die because they cannot access medical services. They are going to say, no, I cannot afford as a senior another $50 this month to see my doctor, to get the medical treatment that I require, to go and see a specialist, my doctor.

This is the most callous, heartless and unfair thing any government could have done and this government did it. It is not only an attack on the health of Northerners, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is an attack on the principles of medicare, one of which, perhaps the most fundamental of which is access to adequate medical services, the right of Manitobans to at least access the best care that we can provide in the province of Manitoba whether that is technological care or specialist care. It is being undermined by this user fee. Let us call it by no other name. Never mind the synonyms. Never mind the euphemisms.

This is a user fee. It is being charged against the people who have at present the least access to adequate medicare. It is unconscionable and it is going to come back to haunt the members of this government. The people of northern Manitoba are not going to stand for it. Madam Deputy Speaker, I wish that the litany of insults against northern Manitobans and against the people of Manitoba ended there but unfortunately it does not.

The fact of the matter is, besides the slight to seniors in Flin Flon, besides the slight to all of the people who need medical services in northern Manitoba, this government attacks our young people in northern Manitoba, a clear attack by eliminating programs such as the Northern Youth Corps, a program that provided literally hundreds of jobs to young people in northern Manitoba in communities where there are no other employment opportunities.

These young people do not have the good fortune or the misfortune depending on your point of view, I guess, of having a McDonald's or a Burger King or other fast food outlets on virtually every corner. They have no employment opportunities. The few positions that were created by the community councils, by the nonpro fit groups in those communities were the only jobs these young people had. What did this government do? It slashed the program. It cut it out entirely. It left community councils without the youth and exuberance of young employees to help provide community services.

It left young people with no support during the summer, no employment, no money. It is a callous cut. Madam Deputy Speaker, of course they cut the funding for CareerStart. Now they are going to say they are going to create as many jobs, but what they have done Is in effect make it quite certain that many nonprofit groups are not going to be able to hire young people in CareerStart positions this year because they do not have the funding. Another group of young people who would have been, and have been in the past, employed in their local communities are no longer going to have that opportunity.

On employment they have attacked young people. Madam Deputy Speaker, in educational services they have attacked young people in northern Manitoba. We lost 14 positions in the Keewatin Community College. We have seen the elimination of northern employment service offices in Flin Flon and Leaf Rapids. We have seen millions of dollars in cutbacks to ACCESS programs, limiting the number of professional opportunities that people in northern Manitoba have. Madam Deputy Speaker, again, the people of northern Manitoba are not like the people of southern Manitoba.

There are very fe w educat ional, particularly post-seconda ry educational opportunities, available in northern Manitoba. Most communities do not have three universities and a community college as there is in the community of Winnipeg. Madam Deputy Speaker, the cutting of these programs, the ACCESS programs and KCC programs, is not only a hardship, an immediate hardship, it is going to create a long-term problem as Northerners attempt to cope with their economic realities and with their prospects for the future.

I believe that the government of Manitoba has lost the confidence already of the people of northern Manitoba, and I think that the people in rural Manitoba are clearly suspect. We have the government floundering on issues such as GRIP

1520 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 1991 and rural development. We have an agricultural economic policy, Madam Deputy Speaker. The North has not only suffered in terms of the government's attitude toward service in the North, but it has also suffered as a result of the government's inability to put together any kind of economic agenda in northern Manitoba. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) was only a moment ago, Madam Deputy Speaker, chastising me for not speaking on the recent announcement that HBM&S is to be purchased by Minorco.

Madam Deputy Speaker, of course I was aware and had received the background documents from both Inspiration and Minorco long before the Minister of Finance was aware of it. There is some good news contained in that, but it would be folly to suggest that the government had any hand in the current transaction that is occurring between Minorco and Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting. Madam Deputy Speaker, the fact of the matter is, and the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) referenced it today, this government has sat around essentially for three years without leading this proj ect to conclusion.

I have said on other occasions, that is a failure of leadership-a failure of leadership. We hope now that because HBM&S and Inspiration Resources may be able to salvage the modernization project by selling HBM&S to Minorco, because Minorco is prepared, it seems, to undertake to provide the guarantees required by the Bank of Nova Sc otia, that we will see the commencement of this project.

I want to put on record, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the commencement of this project at this time, while it is a relief to the people of Flin Flon should it actually occur, which it appears it will, the fact is that the people of Flin Flon have suffered for two and a half years, almost three years, due to the uncertainty of the modernization, but they have also suffered in a more direct way because many of the problems that are being experienced in the immediate environment of Flin Flon are directly due to the lack of modernization. *

(1450) Madam Deputy Speaker, since this government was approached in 1 988 to conclude an agreement, the people of Flin Flon have suffered through now-this will be the fourth summer of extremely intolerable levels of fugitive gases coming out of the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting plant.

They have suffered from unnecessarily high levels of sulfur dioxide in the community , because the modernization would remove almost 90 percent of the fugitive gases that escape into the immediate area of the city of Flin Flon and 25 percent of the sulfur dioxide that is emitted on a daily basis into the environment in and around Flin Flon. This government and this minister, if they had had the initiative, could have solved the problem in a much more expeditious fashion if they had wanted to, if there had been a modicum of leadership, but there was not.

Today, HBM&S is being sold to Minorco, a new company, a company that already has mining interests through a subsidiary in North America, but there are still some questions. The deal, of course, is still contingent upon the bank and Minorco being able to finalize an agreement, a loan condition. It is conditional upon the federal government living up to its meagre commitment of $25 million, and it is conditional upon the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) finally dotting the i's and crossing the t's and writing the letter of commitment by the Province of Manitoba to the modernization project.

Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, maybe the minister can tell me right now whether that letter has been written, but I certainly hope, given the very short time frame that Minorco has to conclude this deal and the importance of the deal, that the Province of Manitoba today will write the letter of commitment so Minorco knows where the province stands, and that the commitment of some $55 million will be available, and that there will not be so many conditions attached by this minister as there was in the Lynn Lake situation so that this project continues to drag on. We remain hopeful.

The government, and least of all the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), cannot take any credit for the fact that HBM&S has managed now to secure financing under very difficult circumstances. I want to remind the minister that had the province shown leadership two years ago when copper prices were high and HBM&S was at that time profitable, it would have been a lot easier to come to some agreement, certainly with the Bank of Nova Scotia or any other financial institution. -(interjection)- Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, the member for Portage la Prairie (Mr.

Connery), the member who continues to chirp from his seat, the back row now, says, what did we do? I can tell the minister the first

May 2, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1521 time I met with HBM&S when I was Minister of Energy and Mines, I made a commitment that we would have our money on the table, and at that time we also had a like commitment from the federal government. I can also tell the minister that when HBM&S came to us in September of 19 87 and could not find a partner to begin the development of the Callinan mine, the Province of Manitoba said, we are there and we are prepared to-in fact did own a 49 percent share of the Callinan mine. That is where we were.

If the minister wants a little bit of a lecture on what the previous government-the former minister, the now discredited member for Portage la Prairie-did for the North and Flin Flon, I would be happy to entertain him any time he wishes. Madam Deputy Speaker, I suppose the inability of this government to develop any vision, any understanding of what the North is and what it could become is equally as evident in the most recent actions of this government. I have outlined some of the things in the budget which attack the progress that has been made in northern Manitoba in health, social services and educati on.

They are now attacking a more fundamental requirement of people in northern Manitoba. last week, the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger) had to answer questions from my colleague the member for The Pas (Mr. lathlin) about cutbacks in transportation services, cutbacks in the ferry services being provided to the people of Cross lake. Only a couple of days later, Madam Deputy Speaker, I received a call from the people of South Indian lake who are having their ferry services cut by some 30 percent, cut by one-third on the Fridays and Saturdays during the open water season.

These people, people in South Indian lake are isolated. They have few opportunities to get the goods and services to meet, attend events as it is during the year, and this minister is now cutting back the basic right of people to access, to leave the communities in northern Manitoba. Madam Depu ty Speaker, I have now also received a copy of a letter from the Deputy Minister of Highways indicating that the winter road program, the program that provides access to northern communities in the wintertime-there is no road during the summer. There is no vehicle traffic into many of the communities.

Now the winter road system is being attacked by this government. This government now is prepared to say, we are going to stop people from bringing supplies, much needed supplies into our communities in the wintertime. These supplies are trucked in over winter roads because it is cheaper, it is easier to organize, and it also provides some employment for maintaining the roads during the winter period. Madam Deputy Speaker, we see a tax on all of the services of the communities in northern Manitoba, and now we have the most fundamental transportation being attacked as well. We see attacks on the young people.

We see denial of the right of the people in Flin Flon to have a seniors project. Is there no depth to which this government will not sink? Is there no basic level of service that people are entitled to in other parts of the province? Madam Deputy Speaker, the people in northern Manitoba are frustrated and they are growing angry. We are losing our economic base.

We are losing our services, and I think the unfortunate news for members opposite, for this government, the members of Treasury bench in particular, is that that disappointment, that frustration, that anger is going to start to creep across the rest of Manitoba. It is out there already. It is out there in small communities, communities like Cartwright, for example, that are losing their school because this Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Derkach) has underfunded now in three consecutive budgets the educational services provided across the province.

Madam Deputy Speaker, there is a growing disenchantment with this government, and it is being led by an understanding that there is no integrity; there is no integrity of members on that side. It begins with the Premier (Mr. Filmon) who continues to defend ministers for doing the indefensible. It continues with ministers who do not tell the proper facts in this House, and then defend decisions that were made behind closed doors and without due process. When the people of Manitoba no longer have any faith in the integrity of the government, the government is finished.

That is the point we are at with the current government. Madam Deputy Speaker, they are here quite apparently to serve their own political purposes and no one else. They are here to serve their own political friends apparently and no one else. They

1522 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 1991 are here to serve certain regions of the province, certain interests of the province, rather than the whole province which they were elected to govern. The frustration which I feel and which made me rise as a member to grieve today is being felt by thousands of Manitobans today. I want to remind this government and this House that since the election of the Conservative government in September of 19 90, there have been more demonstrations on the front of the legislative steps than in the entire seven years of NDP administration.

There has been demonstration after demonstration after demonstration, opposing the callousness, the disregard that this government has for the people of Manitoba. I was one of those people who was trapped in the arrogance and the fear of this government. -(interjection)- The demonstration-and the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) says, well, all inspired by the NOP.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to assure the member for Sturgeon Creek that neither I nor any of my colleagues inspired or conspired with any of the students involved in the demonstration that was held here a little more than a month ago to demonstrate. They are demonstrating because this government is now creating a situation where their tuition fees are going up 20 percent. Their tuition fees are going up 20 percent. There are classes that are being cancelled, their class sizes are increasing. They did not need any help from either myself or any of my colleagues in the opposition.

They were demonstrating because of the callousness of the government. I wanted to refer as well to the approach that this government is taking with a whole plethora of problems that confront them. This government continues to deal in the back rooms, this government continues to deal only with its political friends and with its own agenda, rather than the agenda, the legitimate agenda, of other people in the province of Manitoba. So what does this government do when it is faced, when it is confronted with someone who disagrees with them? Well, the answer is that they lock the front doors.

They lock the front doors, and they make sure that nobody can enter the gallery who opposes them. That is how they respond. Madam Deputy Speaker, I have been a member for 10 years, and that is the first instance where the government of Manitoba has chosen not only to lock the doors and deny people entrance to the gallery but has refused at the same time to address the concerns of the people who were demonstrating in a forthright way. ..

(1500) I, on another occasion, protested the fact that individual members' rights were being sacrificed to protect this government's perceived agenda, and I object as well to that. One of the hallmarks of a good government, which this government clearly is not, is the ability to listen. This government has failed to listen on virtually every major crisis that has faced it since the election in September. Madam Deputy Speaker, we can talk about the nurses, we can talk about the nurses' strike.

We can talk about the government's unwillingness to sit down and discuss with the nurses the legitimate problems they were facing in the workplace. We can talk about the government's unwillingness to involve nurses even in their own management of their own pension plan, their own superannuation plan. We can talk about the government's unwillingness to talk to students. We can talk about the government's unwillingness to listen to their own constituents in the main, who are concerned about agriculture in the province of Manitoba. The Minister of Agriculture (Mr.

Findlay), as an example, continues to ignore the pleas of the farmers of Manitoba to revise, replace the GRIP system with a system of income support that works for farmers. They continue to ignore that. The Minister responsible for Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) has, in effect, abandoned the North. Perhaps we are blessed in that respect, because he comes up very seldom any more because, frankly, he is not welcome, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Derkach) has refused to listen to the education community on every significant issue affecting education.

The Minister of Education refused to listen to the Manitoba Association of School Trustees or the Manitoba Teachers' Society on the issue of funding to private schools and continues to divert public funds in the millions of dollars to private schools while schools in Cartwright, and other areas of the province, public schools, are closed. The Minister of Education refused to listen to the University of Manitoba Students' Union when they

May 2, 1991 LE GISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1523 reques ted an appointment, in fact, nominated people for appointment to the University Board of Governors. The Minister of Education has refused to listen to the advice of his own committee when it comes to changes that are required in our high school program in the province of Manitoba. The Minister of Education refused to listen to teachers and school divisions when he changed the calendar year of the schools, Madam Deputy Speaker. -(interjection)- The member for Dauphin (Mr.

Plohman) reminds me that the minister refused to listen to safety experts, the Manitoba Association of School Trustees again, and others, when it came to the privatizing of student transportation in the province of Manitoba. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst) refuses to listen to, I guess, logic and common sense when approving housing projects, but finally and ultima tely, the blame for the confusi on, the blame for the increasing arrogance that we see on the part of members opposite, by the executive of government, the blame clearly lies with the First Minister (Mr. Filmon).

Madam Deputy Speaker, we recognize that the First Minister is paralyzed by fear of losing control. We re cognize that he has di sm is sed unceremoniously, I might say, two of his Executive Council members, the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) and the member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Connery).

We understand that puts him in an ex tre mely tenuous situa tion, but someti me leadership is required and sometime, at some point in the history of this government, the First Minister is going to have to overcome his fear, his cowardice, and he is going to have to take a leadership role and remove some of the cabinet mem bers who have displayed continuing arrogance and continuing inability to make decisions in the best interest of the people of Manitoba.

He cannot continue to duck and avoid questions about competence, because ultimately, not only will his party pay the political price and his government pay the political price, but the people of Manitoba are in the meantime paying an extremely high price for the raging incompetence that we see on the part of the government opposite. Madam Deputy Speaker, finally, I want to say that the northern part of this province is not the only one that is losing in all of this-not the only part-nor is rural Manitoba.

The fact of the matter is that this province is losing, because while we have a government that seems to be intent on foste ring its own very narrow political agenda, we have a government that is refusing to recognize the symptoms of an extremely precarious economy. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) Since this government was elec ted, the unemployment in the province of Manitoba has increased by some 21 ,000 people. Since this government was first elected in 19 88, almost 22 percent of the manufac turing base in the province has disappeared.

Since this government was elected, we went from a province where the per capital private investment was the second highest to a province where the per capital investment is now the lowest in this country. Even the province of Prince Edward Island has more private per capita investment than the province of Manitoba. We see no economic initiative. We see a government that seems completely oblivious to the problems that our economy faces and therefore the problems that we all face as Manitobans. The government has been given ample choices.

They have been given alternatives, and the choices they are making are to the detriment of the province, and that is lamentable. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Ch air for the Department of Education and Training. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUP PLY SUPP LY- CULTURE, HERITAGE AND CITIZENSHIP Mr.

Deputy Chairman (Marcel Laurendeau) : Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This aft ernoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply me eting in Room 255 will res ume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. When the comm ittee last sat, it had been considering item 2.(

e) Historic Resources: 2.(e)

(1) Salaries, $970,000 and item 6(

d) Hi storic

1524 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 1991 Resources: 6. (d)( 1 ) Grant Assistance, $834, 700 on pages 31 and 34 of the Estimates book and on pages 38 and 39 of the Supplementary Information book. Shall these items pass? Mr . Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am wondering if the minister can give me some type of a breakdown on the Community Museums Grants, who is receiving what. Hon. Bonnie Mltchelson (Mi nister of Culture, Her it age and Cit ize ns hip): Mr. De puty Chairperson, there are 90 community museums.

Twenty-five of them receive a grant of $1 ,500 per year and 65 of them receive a grant of $3,500. Mr. Lamoureux: The St. Boniface Museum, how much would they be receiving? Mrs. Mltchelson: $3,500. Mr. Lamoureux: Has it been frozen for the year for all the differen t museums then? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, since about 19 84 or '85, these grants have been the same. It is a formula-based grant based on the size of the museum. Mr. Lamoureux: Moving down to the Heritage Grants, there was a substantial reduction in the line.

Does the minister want to comment as to why that is, or what the change has been? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Dep uty Chairperson, there has been a reduction of about 20 percent in the operati ng grants to the commu nity heritage organizations. These are provincial organizations based mainly in Winnipeg. Mr. Lamoureux: The last thing I wanted to talk on in this particular line was in regard to Heritage Building Grants, and this would probably be the appropriate line to ask in terms of the theatres that were being closed down last fall.

I am wondering if the minister can give some type of an update in terms of what is going on with those two theatres. *

(1520) Mrs. Mltchelson: There has been a consulting engineer who has done a feasibility study on mothballing these theatres, and we have not got the final report yet. Mr. Lamoureux: Was anything done to the theatres over the wintertime to ensure to minimize the winter elements? Mrs. Mltchelson: There was nothing done over this past winter, no, but in fact the report was to look at the feasibility of how those theatres could be maintained throughout the winter months. Mr.

Lamoureux: I would think that it might be somewhat beneficial for the committee, at least the committee in future sittings, that we get some type of an idea of how these theatres have depreciated over the last winter, so that we are better able to get a better understanding on future buildings that we might run into this type of a problem in the future. I ask the minister if she has any intentions or any plans on doing just that, going in and taking a look and comparing how it came through the winter. Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes, we will do that. Mr.

Lamoureux: I would ask her for a copy of the results, the damage that has occurred over the winter. Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes. Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): Well, I have been saving up questions for three years. I hope I can get them all in in the next hour and a half. Actually, I will try notto duplicate questions that have already been raised, and I hope you will bear with me if there are any duplicate questions, and try to follow some areas of interest being pursued by my colleague the mem ber for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen).

First, on the grant system, I am just wondering if anybody has asked yet, for a complete list of all grants for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, and if not, could we get a complete list with last year' s ex pend iture and this year's proposed? Mrs. Mltchelson: No one has asked for that, and yes, we can provide that. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Thank you.

I understand when Estimates adjourned earlier this week that my colleague the critic for this department for the New Democratic Party was asking about the depth of cuts in this area, and has noted, as we all have, that Historic Resources has probably taken a deeper cut than any other area in this department, and was asking the question why this branch more than any other. What is the reason? What is the strategy or planning behind it all? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think I was just starting to indicate that the nature of the branch's work has changed considerably over the last five years .

You know , as The Heritage Resources Act- I know the member for St. Johns was very instrumental in having that act introduced

May 2, 1991 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1525 and proclaimed. I think over the last five years the role has changed, more the role of a facilitator of community initiatives rather than direct services to communities. Ms. Wasylycla-lels: I am not qu ite sure I understand the response, since I do not believe we had ever envisaged that the work would become less, that there would be less of a role for govern men t as time progressed from the introduction of the legislation.

In fact, I think everyone envisaged increased awareness and increased community activity requiring, if possible, and given the circumstances of the day, an ever active and increasing role on the part of government. So I am still not sure on what basis-and I note also that the minister has made this statement in her opening address, that the Historic Resources Branch is now more able to focus its efforts on its core services and responsibilities. On what basis can she make that statement, and how can she explain reduced role for government in this very important area? Mrs.

Mltchelson: Over the last five years there have been, I guess, about 15 municipal heritage advisory committees that have established very successfully throughout the province. There will be one staff person in the department dedicated solely to be working with these advisory committees. These committees will be determining what the needs are for her itage development in the communities and, in fact, we will be assisting, we will be maintaining the core functions that have been done in the past. Ms.

Wasylycla-lels: let me go on to some specifics then in terms of the cuts in this branch, a big cut in te rms of st aff un der the Pr ofe ssiona l/Technic al categ ory of His toric Resources, and I believe the footnote references that. I am wondering if the minister could give us more detail In terms of precisely which positions were cut and the names of the individuals who lost their jobs. Mrs.

Mltchelson: I can indicate what positions have been cut, but I think it is premature at this point to be indicating names of people because of the process that has been put in place whereby some people are opting to take early retirement, and there are other options available to staff. We do not have a final list of the names of people at this point. If someone does take an early retirement, that might mean an opportunity for someone that has received a layoff notice to fit into that position, but I can give the positions.

There is one word processor operator, one heritage resource offi cer, three archaeology officer positions, one vacant position in archaeology, one position in architectural history, one position in history, and one in museums. Ms. Wasylycla-lels: Could I ask for a little more detail now with respect to the one heritage resource offi cer? What was the specific area of work for that person, or the expertise of that individual? We are trying to get a sense of what is being lost by this cutback. Mrs.

Mltchelson: Maybe just for some clarification, I guess they were heritage resource offi cers in archaeology, and there were four positions there. Ms. Wasylycla-lels: Sorry. Again a clarification then. Are you saying that it is not one heritage resource officer and three archaeology officer positions, but-perhaps you could give us a breakdown again. Mrs. Mltchelson: Okay, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, one SY in administration, four SYs in archaeology, and one of those was a term position, one SY in architectural history, one SY in history, and one SY in museums. Ms. Wasylycla-lels: Okay.

With respect to the four archaeology of ficer positions, could I have a clarification of what specialties those people had, or what areas they were responsible for? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, there was one person doing heritage awareness, and the others were doing discretionary projects such as site excavations. The one at Churchill West was completed this last fiscal year. •

(1530) Ms. Wasylycla-lels: On the last point of the minister, is she saying that the project in Churchill was completed and there was therefore no further need for an individual to cover off the North in terms of archaeological developments? Mrs. Mltchelson: This was originally envisioned as a four-year project, and last year was the last year of the four years, the Churchill West Peninsula survey. Ms. Wasylycla-lels: Is the other position you mention as heritage awareness, does that mean

15 26 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 19 91 there is no additional resources in terms of heritage awareness, or what is left? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, there has been a lot of data that has been collected, and we still will be able to continue along with this process. With the advisory councils that have established themselves, 15 different advisory councils throughout the province and the one resource person who will be delegated to working with them, we will still be able to continue with Heritage Awareness. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: Could I also ask for the clear description of the loss of the other three positions, the architectural history position, the history position and the museum position. What specifically were those people involved in? What areas of expertise? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the two positions, the architectural history position and the history position, were both doing research work for the Manitoba Heritage Council, and in fact we will still be able to continue to do research. We may have to limit and specialize the types of research that we can do. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: Was one of these positions devoted in large part to Native history? Mrs. Mltchelson: The one person did do research on Native history but not exclusively Native history. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Could the minister tells us, the loss of eight individuals in this branch is very significant in my mind. I am wondering if the minister could tell us what is the impact on services and service delivery as a result of the loss of these eight positions? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, we will be able to maintain the basic services such as designation, impact assessments and support for the Manitoba Heritage Council and work with the Heritage Advisory Committees. We will not be undertaking any major digs at this point. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Jus t a com ment with a ge neral qu esti on. I am getting increasingly concerned about the blow to this whole area in terms of the province of Manitoba.

The minister seems to be indicating that this government has chosen to go back to providing only what they must absolutely provide under the letter of the law, under The Heritage Resources Act, and has withdrawn from many of the broad based, community outreach-type activities that go hand in hand with any real commitment to legislation with teeth. The minister says in her opening speech that there has been an increase of heritage awareness and then draws the conclusion therefore they need less resources.

However, I would assume that if there is an increase of heritage awareness, then one certainly needs a Heritage Awareness Off icer-I believe that is the righ t title-and from my experience there was always demands on staff. I always felt that staff at that time were being overburdened and coming near to burnout. I am worried that this loss of seven, eight individuals, really eight positions, will have a very serious impact on the energy level of remaining staff and on the ability of this whole area to reach out in creative and innovative ways, working with the community on heritage projects.

I sense that there has also been- there is a contradiction in terms of the minister focusi ng, or says she is focusing, on enhancing aboriginal and northern multicultural aspects of heritage of our province, and yet some of the cuts seem to directly im pact on those areas.

It seems rather than meeting those original objectives, where the minister is working at cross purposes, I am just wondering if that is the case, has the government, because of the fiscal situation, chosen to go back to providing a bare-bones service that they absolutely have to, under the act, and pulling out of many of the other areas with the expectation and the hope that communities will do it on a volunteer basis entirely? Mrs.

Mltchelson: I guess, with the act in effect now and with the community support-and I want to commen d the communi ties and the advisory councils that have taken the initiative, have looked at the value of the Heritage Resources in their commu nity and established themselves-those advisory councils will be able to apply to the Heritage Federation for project grants. I think it is incumbent, or I suppose I might say very much commendable, that there are people out there who are aware of the value of heritage that, in fact, they understand the needs of their community.

If there are specific projects, and the needs are different within different communities, if there are projects that they do want to undertake, they can apply to the Manitoba Heritage Federation and receive funding to do those projects. *

(1540) Ms. Wasylycla-Lels : The other area I wantto point to that seems to contradict the assurances that the

May 2, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1527 minister is giving us today is the outcry from all of those organizations that received sig nificant cutbacks from this government. There has been public comment, there has been concern expressed on the part of a number of organizations. I am wondering if the minister can explain the rationale behind the reduction in grants to those listed in the press release that followed the budget. I believe there are about 10 major organizations that have received cutbacks. I would like to know-what we have now is what they are reduced to.

What was the original grant for each of those organizations and what was the rationale or the form ula used in terms of the cuts? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we have had one call from one of the organizations, and they were all informed as the budget was released that in fact there would be reductions to their operating grants. We are going to be working with that organization that called, but obviously with all of the organizations we will be me eting and discussing ways we can work together to ensure that they can maintain services.

I do want to indicate that there has been basically around a 20 percent reduction to all of those org ani zati ons. In fact, we did not ask the organizations out there in these difficult times to take any greater reduction than what the branch took administratively within. The decisions were made and they were difficult I have indicated before , none of these decisions were easy decisions, but within the department there were reductions. We did not ask any external organization to take any greater reduction than the department or the branch had to take. Ms.

Wasylycla-lels: Is the minister saying that a straight percentage was applied across the board regardless of needs and dem ands facing the organizations? Was it a straight 20 percent cut to all of the organizations listed, regardless of any other fact ors, criteria? Mrs. Mltchelson: I guess when we look at the overall budgets of the organizations that did receive a 20 percent reduction, I guess the impact would have been anywhere from about 4 percent to 10 percent of their total budget-the reductions. It basically was 20 percent to all of the organizations.

As I indicated, we will be working with them on an individual basis to see how they can continue to operate and work with the department along those lines. Ms. Wasylycla-lels: Does the minister have a contingency plan if any of these organizations are not able to fulfil! their responsibilities? Mrs. Mltchelson: I guess we felt, as I indicated, the organizations that we fund would have to share in the responsibility of these really difficult economic times. We were faced with a challenge when there was no growth in revenues in the province.

We have indicated already that our decision had to be the priorities of health care, Family Services and Education, and that many departments had to share in the responsibility of reductions. In fact, this was one area that we asked to share and not accept any more responsibility than the branch within the department did in reductions. Over a period of time and over this difficult year anyway we will be working very closely with them to help them to cope through the difficult situation. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: What is the actual reduction for the heritage building grants? Mrs.

Mltchelson: There is no reduction in the heritage grants. The difference is just a carry-over from monies that were not paid out from the previous year. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: The reason I am asking is it is listed in the press release under the category of grants reduced. On page 2 it says Heritage Building Grants $400,000. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Dep uty Chairperson, that should not have been on the list then, because I think it was $85 ,000-$ 485,000 was jus t a carry-over. Ms. Wasylycla-lels: On a few other minor issues, where is the proposal involving St.

Boniface Historical Society and the Grey Nuns in terms of their longstanding work in that area? Mrs. Mltchelson: I have met several times with the committee that is involved. They have submitted a proposal to us, and we are at this point in time-Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we have not received a formal request from them, but they would be eligible under the Heritage Building Grants program. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Ju st a question on the question of burial sites, there is a note in the Estimates book on it. I am just wondering if the minister and this government have finalized an aboriginal burial policy? Mrs.

Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we are still working with the Native community on the

1528 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 1991 human burials policy. We have asked for their input and to date have not received that back from them. We have a resolution that has been drafted and it is presently being considered by the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs. Ms.

Wasylycla-lels: While we are dealing with aboriginal issues, and relating to the reference in the Estimates book about the 75th anniversary of the Women's Suffra ge, the minister knows that there was concern among aboriginal women about being really ex cluded in the sense that it did not acknowledge the later date when aboriginal people were given the right to vote. Has the minister addressed that in any way and made any plans or commitments to the aboriginal people to commem orate the anniv ersary of aboriginal people getting the vote? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I know that the 75th anniversary commemorating women getting the vote was a monumental occasion, and I think there was mention made by both myself and by the Premier (Mr. Film on) that in fact we know that it was not all women. It was aboriginal men and women at a later date that did receive the vote, and I guess we would have to wait for the appropriate anniversary to commemorate something like that. I would imagine that would be done, given that it was all aboriginal people, quite possibly in conjunction with the Minister responsible for Northern and Native Affa irs (Mr. Downey). Ms.

Wasylycla-lels: I have a question on the re duc tion un der Other Expendi tures in Communication from $75,000 roughly to $63,000. What would the impact of that be? Mrs. Mltchelson: We have maintained enough budget in that line to go ahead with one or two technical papers and about five pamphlets this year. *

(1550) Ms. Wasylycla-lels: Will this reduction or any other of the reductions in this branch have any impact on the ability of the department to respond on a fairly prompt basis to public inquiries? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, there may be a minimal im pact. We do not get a lot of requests for primary research, and if it is research that we already have, we should be able to provide that very readily. I suppose it would have to be refe rred if it was primary research to libraries or to the Archives. Ms.

Wasylycla-lels: Could the minister indicate how many inquiries this branch receives and how long it takes to respond to each one? Is that possible? Mrs. Mltchelson: I guess that kind of information is not tabulated, but I am told that there are about 12 calls per day requesting information and it is able to be handled in a very timely fashion throughout the department. Ms. Wasylycla-lels: On a new matte r. The application for the World Heritage site, where is that and how is it going? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the research is done, but we are delaying the proposal at the request of the LGD, which is waiting for the establishment of the national park. Ms. Wasylycia-lels: A couple of questions on these specia l edukit projects. The first one, Discovering Manitoba Architecture. Could the minister indicate the cost of this project, and if and how it is being cost shared with the Department of Education? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is not being cost-shared by the Department of Education.

It is our initiative, but we have worked with the educa tors throughout the province in the development of the kit. It is in production right now. We do not have a final figure, but the kits cost approximately $5,000 to $6,000 to produce. Ms. Wasyly cla-lels: The Nor thern Native Lifeways project to me sounds like quite a useful and innovative project. Why is it si mply limited to school-aged children? Why not for the whole public? Has that been considered in terms of its broader usefulness? Mrs.

Mltchelson: I guess what we wanted to do was start off with children at the earliest possible stage, and I think that we can build on that in the future. Ms. Wasylycla-lels: Just a couple more questions in this area. I just want to clarify, under Community Heritage Grants, the reduction from $701 , 700 to $506, 10 0 is the sum total of that reduction list. Is that what is listed in that press release, or are there additional grants not listed in the press release, or additional organizations that received reductions? Mrs. Mltchelson: That is the total list. Ms.

Wasylycla-lels: Then finally, on Heritage Building Grants, I have just noticed that there is

May 2, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1529 actually, in your own detailed Estimates, a reduction from $485,400 to $400,000. Could the minister explain that? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the $485,000 last year was a carry over of $85,000 from the previous year that was put into last year's figure. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Can the minister tell us if she has made the forecas ting, or whatever, to know whether or not she will be able to accommodate all requ ests from mun icipalities in terms of that $400,000, or what kind of a waiting listthere will be, or what kind of projects will be put on hold?

Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is a very popular program and there will be applications, I am sure, in excess of the number of dollars that will be available this year. I suppose there will have to be some priority decisions in that respect. It was a program that we were able to maintain this year but we were not able to increase funding for. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Would the minister be able to tell us how many projects or requests may not be able to be accommodated this year? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, we cannot give an exact prediction, but I do know from the applications we do have in right now, we would be able to accommodate all of them. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Could the minister give us her assessment and analysis of the problems around Barber House? •

(1600) Mrs. Mltchelson: I think we are satisfied, Mr. Deputy Chairman, that the funds we have given to Barber House have been expended properly, and we are just waiting now for the city's assessment because of the inquiry that they have asked for. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: I will have to move on to the next line. Mr. Deputy Chairman: 2.(

e) Historic Resources: 2.(e)

(1) Salaries, $970,000-pa ss; 2.(e)

(2) Other Expenditures, $1 99,300-pass. 6.(

d) Historic Resour ces: 6.(d)

(1) Grant Assistance, $834, 700-pass; 6.(d)

(2) Grant Assistance - Capital $400,000-pass. We will now move on to item 2.(

f) Recreation: 2.(f)

(1) Salaries, $272,000-(pass); 2.(f)

(2) Other Expenditures, $1 60,400-(pass). 6.(

e) Recreation Grant Assistance $1 ,028,000. Ms. Wasylycla-lels: The first question I have is, I want to know if the Piney Blueberry Festival is getting its grant. Mrs. Mltchelson: I am not quite sure how to respond to that question. Would the member like to provide a little more in-depth explanation? Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: No, but I am really curious to know if the Piney Blueberry Festival got a grant this year. Perhaps you will have to take it as notice. Mrs. Mltchelson: We will have to check the grants list, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Now to a more serious matter, the reductions in this branch.

Again a significant reduction in terms of staff, from nine to seven, and I am wondering again, in the context of this being a fairly stretched-to- the-limit branch of the department, if the minister could tell us precisely what the loss of those two positions means and on what basis the decision was made to cut those positions. Mrs. Mltchelson: One of the positions was a clerk who basically managed the stores, and the other one was a position dealing with rec policy. We are in the final stages of that development and that position is now no longer needed. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: Does tha t me an the recreation policy is done and its public unveiling is immin ent and we will soon know what this government's views and philosophical approaches to recreation are? Mrs. Mltchelson: We are coming very close. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Could the minister tell us when we might expect the release of the recreation policy? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deput y Ch airperson, I certainly cannot give an exact date, but I will indicate that it will be shortly. (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: Could the minister explain the three-year time lapse from the point where a fairly major consultation process had been done and a major paper done and a sig nificant policy statement drafted to today? We still do not have a policy statement. What has transpired in those three years? What was wrong with the original recreation policy paper, and what changes to that we can expect? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairman, I think that probably with the changes in government, there

1530 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2, 1991 were some changes in philosophy and what we felt recreation would be. I do know that there is a national state ment that we agree with, tha t recreation is all of those things that people do with their leisure time to enhance their quality of life. I certainly agree with that concept, but I think the direction that the former government was going in was more providing or indicating that it was government's responsibility to provide recreational opportunities for all Manitobans. I guess, my philosophy would be a little somewhat different.

I think there is a local government responsibility, and I think recreation is very often driven by people's individual choices for the types of things they would like to do in their leisure time. I think the branch should be providing a leadership role, but I do not think we as a provincial government should accept the sole responsibility or the prime respon sibility for recreational opportunities. I believe there is a major responsibility on behalf of the local government and the local community to determine what their needs are.

We can provide leadership in many ways, but we are not going to be the sole deliverer of recreation throughout the province. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: I certainly do not recall the first policy statement on recreation or the draft that was put together un der the fo rmer NDP administration stressing that the province assume all responsibility and, in effect, play a big brother role in this area.

I recall the major theme of that paper being one of providing equ itable access to recreational opportunities for all Manitobans, particularly dealing with groups in our society that have experienced systemic barriers and have a great many obstacles in accessing recreation opportunities, particularly aboriginal people, seniors, the disabled or members living with disabilities, women, visible minorities, and so on. I still believe and the NDP believes that is still a major area that has to be addressed in a recreation policy.

Can the minister indicate to us if that emphasis will be still followed by her government, and what kinds of action plans she is looking at to address this whole area? I know she has not released the paper and cannot give us specifics but some broad themes of polic y sta tement and appr oaches this government intends to undertake. Mrs. Mltchelson: I guess I could continue along the lines as my last comments whereby it has taken us three years and probably will be a few more months before we introduce our recreation policy, but I do not think we as a government have stood still.

As far as attempting to address some of the aboriginal issues, I think the northern recreation directors pilot project that we implemented, which to date has trained 23 Northerners to go back into their own com muni ties to provid e recrea tional opportunities for those communities, is a very positive step and one that has been very well received in the northern and Native communities. They are all Northern Affairs communities, and that is very positive. I think it is a major step in the right direction.

I guess another thing that we have done is put in place the Recreation Innovation Fund where, if there is a comm unity need, they are able to apply to that fund and access some dollars based on what they believe and what they feel the community's needs are. So, in fact, we have not stood still. We are still continuin g to work at impr oving recreational opportunities throughout the province of Manitoba. I guess over the last three years there has been a fair amount of consultation with community groups and organizations.

We have been talking with the local governments through MAUM and UMM to see what the problems were in the Recreation District program. I know the member knows that is a program that has been in place since 19 72, and there are concerns within the community that there is not enough flexibil ity in the program. It has been almost 20 years and every once in a while programs have to be re-evaluated. We have to look at ways that we can make it more flexible to meet the needs of the communities, so we have been working in consultation with them. That consultation is still ongoing.

We are looking very shortly at putting in place a change to the Recreation District program that will attempt to meet the needs of the communities out there in a better way. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels : It would seem to me that any change in terms of the grant system and the funding formula, and any new initiatives that would seem to flow out of a policy statement on recreation, would require some additional resources and staff. Yet in this budget we see a reduction.

May 2, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1531 What kind of plans are in the works to ensure that resources will be there to address a new policy on recreation? Would it not have made more sense, even though the paper may be completed and therefore a recreation consultant is not needed to draft a paper, to hold onto that position for the work that will flow out of a new policy statement? Mrs. Mltchelson : I think that our Regional Services people will be able to be a major player in assisting communities in working with us to put in place the new district grant program.

Indications are it will be announced with the phase-in over the next year so that the access will come in the next fiscal year for the new program, because I think there will be a fair amount of work to be done with communities in evaluating what types of districts they want to form as a basis of providing recreation to their communities. So it will be announced. We will be working with the communities, and Regional Services will be able to help to deliver and establish the new program. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: I am wonder ing if the min ister, in preparing for the release of her recreation policy and thinking about reorganizing and putting in place new initi

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-2-35
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 2nd hansardpdf 35.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	c76959f4c68ed4ddfde69319e87662bac215d1cd

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