·~ Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, APRIL 28, 1976 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 52

,A,pril 28, 1976 The House met at 3:00 P.'-!. t•r. Speaker :In the r:hair. ~IT'.. SPEAKE?: Order, please~ Tape 2231 IB-1 PBE~ENTING PETITIONS: ~'T' • SPEAKE? : ~·P. P.OBERTS: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. t'r. Speaker, I would like to present a peti.tion, Sir, in behalf of a]moRt every single - or it has been signed by almost every single perRon ••ho lives in the Labrador portion of my district, ann I kno"! in presenting the petition I do so i.n behalf of every s:fng]e resident.

Sir, the petition states in its words succinctly 7 and at ]east as effectively as I could, its point, and perhaps the best ,.ray to outline the prayer of the petition is simply to read the form of the petition, Sir.

I reads as follows: "VIe, the resiclents of Labrador South kno~.' only too "'ell that the gravel road frol!' 1, '1\nse-;m-Clair to Red Bay - and if I may ann a l•'Orcl here for the benefit of l!'embers of the House 1vho m~ty not be intimately familar with that part of the Province, that is aJ 1 of the roan in the Province from the harder r-':!th Ouebec to the Pncl of the roacl, to the roan head Hhich is at Pen Bay - that the gravel roaif from I. 1Mse-au-f'la:fr to "~>er1 Bay is seldom if ever in good driving condition. During the Spr:fnr,,for example,it is always in clepJorahJe r.onclition.

At the moment it is in danger of becoming completely impassable :• "~.Je, the undersignP.d, believing that our provincial government has an obligation to improve livlng conditions in our part of the Province, most strong] y urp-e the government, particularly the ~<inister of Transportation and r:ommun~.cations, to ensure that '"e Labranor:ians get sufficient funds;one, to provicle and/or hire equipment to i!rain the roac1 im!l1eitiately and to 1<-eep it aclequately graded thereafter: two, to properly rebui.l (! and upgrade the road •rhere necessary anc1/ or rlesirable c1~tr1ng this Summer; and three, to purchase a sno"•blol·.'er for next year instead of reJyinfc on the present blast which has to be. instal len onto a Hough 70 loai!er which is used regularly during Summer majntenance anc1 construction!' 604ti

April 28, 1976 Tape 2231 IB-2 ~ 'R. ROBERTS: }!r. Speaker, before . I say a word or two with reference to the petition itself, may I point out to the Rouse, Sir, that this petition has been signed by 112 of the 132 voters in the community of L'Anse-au-Glair, by 186 of the 215 eligible voters in the community of Forteau including Buckles Point and English Point, by 122 of the 269 voters in the community of L'Anse-au-Loup, by 38 of the forty \ \ '1.. I 0 c\ in the community of Capstan Island, by ~ 109 of the 112 eligible voters according to the voters list in the community of West St .

Modeste, by 65 of the 96 voters in Pinware and by 36 of the 182 people eligible to vote in the community of :r.ed Bay. So I think it is obvious, Mr. Speaker, that H has the wholehearted support of the people who live in that part of our Province and that part of my district. Sir, a delegation from that area was in St. John's recently and the Minister of Transportation was good enough to see us, the delegation and ~yself,for an hour, an hour and a half. We had quite a thorough discussion of the points made in that petition. At that time I did not have the petition.

It has come to me subsequently with the request that U be presented. Let me say, Sir, that th~ minister listened sympathetically to the request made by the people who made up the rlelegation. Re gave us some satisfaction on some of the points. I would hope that he ~rould now upon further consideration be able to give more satisfaction and grant the requests which these people make because I think, Sir, the requests are both modest and reasonable and I think the case in support of them is unarguably sound. Let me conclude, lfr.

Speaker, by saying again as I have so often that I think it is of great importance that we in this House, particularly the Queen's ministers - if the gentleman from Tv1illingate U'r. Smallwood) '1-'0uld perhaps lower his voice, Sir, I could carry on. He has a voice that penetrates vrith great effectiveness and clarity. The point I was making, Sir, is that I think it is terribly important - 6047

.t t-pril 28, 1976 Tape 2.231 IB-3 ··~. OOOIW: ~~ . POBERTS: It is distrac tin g J say to the gentleman fro~ Harbour l'ain-Bclllsland ('r . J)oody). I agree with him . It is terribly i~portant that w~ in the House, Sir , and p~rticularly those who hol~ the Queen's comMission as ministers, pay ver y great heed to the just if:Uible neecls and le~i timate requests of the people of the Labrador portion of this Province. I am not in any way encourAging the sepa r atis t feeli ng . Indeed, Sir, I feel we must fi eht <tga:lnst H . ~ut the vay to fight aga:lnAt it , !"r.

Speake r, is by shoQ:Ing the people of Labrador that they can get,within the const 1 tutionaJ and pol itical frame wor k of the Province of Newfoundland and T~brador,a fair and an adequate response to their needs . I think !'ir , that this peti t ion makes such a fair and reasonable l.'equest and T would hope , ~ir, that the ~overnment this yea r out of the $45 million or ~50 million or ~60 million which the minister will have available to hJD for construction purpose!' ,wi.ll be able to find t he relatively rew c'

o) lars that ~· Hl he nce<'ecl te> satisfy the pr ayer of th:ls pet :I tion. 1 suppo r t it, ~ir, and I clo so wholeheartedly. near, hear : 6048 ,.

April 28, 1976. Tape 2232 RH - 1 MR. SPF.AK'ER: The hon. member for LaPoile. f1R. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I support the·•prayer of the petition presented hy the Leader of the Opposition in behalf of his constituents from L'Anse-au-Clair to Red Bay. That road, I would say, Mr. Speaker, that stretch of road is about the worst piece of road,I suppose,in Newfoundland and Labrador. The road is carved out of the side of a cliff. There are no guardrails. It is a very narrow stretch of road. It is very hazardous and very dangerous .

I am amazed that in the Wintertime they can clear the snow there at all to allow the traffic to get over it. Most of the time the road is blocked off. It is not the first time, Sir, that the problems concerning that stretch of road have been raised in this hon. House. Mr. Nike Martin,when he was the member for Labrador South,raised the matter, and I believe on one occasion persuaded the ~inister of Transportation and Communications to go to the Straits of Belle Isle to take a look at that stretch of road.

But it would seem that it was all in vain, that they still do not have the snowclearing equipment that is necessary to keep this road open in the Wintertime. The upgrading and the reconstruction of the road has not taken place.

I agree with the Leader of the Opposition, Sir, that if we are to prove to the people on the Labrador side, especially in the Straits of Belle Isle, that we are sincere and genuine in making Labrador truly a part of this Province, Sir, then I hope that the tiinister of Transportation and Communications will see fit to grant the prayer of the petition, Sir, which strikes me as being a very reasonable one indeed. SOME RON • }lEMBERS : Hear, hear! tffi. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. HON. J. MORCA.Iil: Mr. Speaker, j ast to say a few words on the petition.

The delegation I met with from Labrador clearly pointed out the need for improvements. In fact,last year I was in that area, not as a minister but as a member of the House on a different matter pertaining to the fisheries. I saw the road conditions myself. This government has spent substantial 6049

April 28, 1976. ~IR . HORGAN : Tape 2232 RH - 2 amounts of mohey in that area the past couple or three years - last year, $150,000, I think the year before $100,000 on that road from L'Anse-au-Clair to Red Ray. The engineering estimates to reconstruct the road to make it an all weather road, passable all year round and in good condition, the engineering estimates of cost is in the vicinity of $2 m:l.llion. Of course the population of Red Bay is approximately, I think, 500 people.

It is, looking at the cost and the population, it is very difficult to determine at this time whether or not this Province can afford to totally reconstruct the road and to - MR. ROBERTS: You are talking about the whole road - not just the

section particular to Red Bay. MR. MORGAN: I am fully aware of the road conditions in that area. I saw the road conditions, prior to the han. gentleman seeing the road conditions. MR. ROBERTS: No, no. ~ffi. HORGAN: The road from Red Bay - the worst

section of road is from Red Bay approximately eight to nine miles in the direction of L'Anse-au-Clair. That is the worst

section of road. There are no guardrails on the~road because the road is a narrow road. It is rough terrain and it is at the hottom of a mountain and hilly area. It is almost impossible to install guardrails without causing havoc with snowclearing operations,because the road is too narrow and the guardrails would be torn down each Winter l•7ith the ploughing Oflerations. So what I intend to do ,as indicated to the delegation from Labrador, is that I will be travelling to the area t>te early part of the Summer.

I will be holding a public meeting in Red Bay and clearly flOinting out to them that there is no substantial amount of money this year to enable a contractor to carry out the reconstruction of that road because of the really substantial cost, $2 million, and talking to them of the possibility of some alternate accommodations with regards to ade~uate transportation in that area. I will be doing that hy outlining to them '~hat the views of my department are at a puhlic meeting and to r,et the reaction. I am inviting the hon. gentleman from 6050

April 28, 1976 . Tal'e 2232 · RH - 3 MR. MORGAN: the area to attend that same meeting. SOME !!ON • MEHBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Nask.aupi. MR. J. GOUDIE: }tr. Speaker, I beg leave to p·resent a petition on behalf of some 814 residents of Labrador in six communities - the communities of Cartwright, Happy Valley, Rigolet, :!-tary's Harbour, Paradise River and Fox Harbour. T:he prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, reads as follows: '-'Whereas residents of Coastal Labrador only have air and sea transportation;

whereas ·sea transportation is only provided by Canadian National;

whereas Canadian National boats do not have the capacity to .transport residents between coiii!IIUnities beeause space is taken up by tourists;

whereas loca.l residents are herded aboard Canadian National boats like cattle and in most instances without sleeping acco111111odations; l;'herea .s Canadian National is subsidized by the Canadian taxpayer, we as Canadian taxpayers do hereby request that Canadian National boats be used only for the transport of local residents who use the boats as a highway.'-' 6051

April 28, 1976 Tape 2233 PK - 1 Mr. Goudie : That, Mr. Sneaker, is the prayer of the petition. And just in supporting the petition I might .add that it was, the petition itself, although the conditions have existed for a number of years, the petition itself was sparked by an

article in The Daily News dated 29th. of August,l975. And the petition was circulated by two residents, two people who are now residents of Happy Valley, Labrador, but were at one time residents of coastal communities, Ruby Durneau and Daphne Roberts, and they point out a number of things. They took a trip on one of the CN boats, the Motor Vessel Bonavista themselves to look into ·these conditions, on their own initiative, and point out a number of things they feel are wrong.

And that is, for instance, residents who haye to travel on CN vessels -were travelling with only sitting space available and in some instances there were not even chairs to sit on. People have to travel without sleeping accommodations, while deluxe and first class cabins are occupied by tourist or families of the crew taking round trips. And so on down the line. I ask, Mr. Speaker, that this petition be tabled, be referred to the Department of Transportation and Communications, and I request that particular department refer this petition to the appropriate Federal Department and support it as I do now. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. RON. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to indicate that approx .imately two months ago,back in February,when the Minister of Transport, the bon. Otto Lang was here in the Province and met with the ministers who are responsible for transportation in the Atlantic Region, that at that meeting the hon. Minister of Transport in the Federal Liberal Government,announced to us he intended to increase the ferry tariffs in the Atlantic Region, including the coastal boat services to the Labrador.

And, of course, we very strongly opposed that in a submission to the minister, not only the · increase in ferry tarrifs at:•J:OSs the Gulf and throughout the Atlantic

April 28, 1976 Tape 2233 PK- 2 MR. MORGAN: Region, the one to P.E.I. and Newfoundland, and from Yarmouth to Bar Harbour, in Nova Scotia. But very adamantly oppos~d any increase in the coastal boat services in this Province based on the fact that there was an obvious,substantial need, a desperate need,for improvement of these services. And the han. gentleman from Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) quite clearly pointed out in that petition the need for improved services.

So I was indeed pleased last Friday when I met with officials of the Department of Ministry of Transport in Ottawa that I was officially informed then that there will be no increase in the ferry tarrifs or the coastal boat service tarrifs as a result of our strong opposition put forward to the Federal Minister. So there will be no increase in the coastal boat tarrifs in Labrador. And now, of course, the pressure will be put on, and I say'pressure' because I am of the opinion as results of my meetings in Ottawa over the past number of months that we have to put pressure on to get results from Ottawa.

You can sit down and talk honey all you wish, and you will get no results, You need pressure and pressure. And if the hon. Minister of Transport in Ottawa wants pressure, the han. gentleman here could give him lots of pressure in the next number of months. The pressure will be on to have improved services in the existing coastal boat services in Labrador. And he will have lots of pressure over the n~xt number of days and weeks with regards to what we saw recently,the recognition in Ottawa that there are two different sections of Canada, if not three, whereby transportation policies apply.

Because the transportation policy of Central Canada is obviously now being applied to the Eastern part of Canada, and this •is quite unfair. It is quite unfatt and it is obvious it is going to increase regional disparity in this country. We see· the increase in our ferry rates across the Gulf,which is our link with the mainland, a part of our Trans-Canada Highway. No recognition of our opposition made earlier while the minister was here in the Province, not even consultation with this Province. I 6'053

April 28, 1976 Tape 2233 PK - 3 .Mr. Morgan: . happened, t .o be in Ottawa on Friday when tbe officials indicated that the information wi~l be given to me officially by the minister on Monday of this week, and I was unable to get the details of the increase in the ferry s.ervices, and whether or not there would be at that time any increase in the coastal boat services to Labrador. But I pressured them into giving me the information ba.sed on the fact in Newfoundland on Monday was a holiday.

So only because of that little factor I got the information Friday evening, but much to my surprise I tuned into the media on the weekend in this Province, 11-nd here was the East Coast Marine Ferry Services announcing the full details. The Minister of Transport in Nova Scotia, responsible 'for transpo .rtation,was not informed officially • I W!IS not informed officially except for the information I obtained late Friday afternoon in Ottawa as a result of a holiday here in Newfoundland. The tll.i:!l.ister responsible for transportation in

!lpril 28, 197fi. MR. MOR\.AN: Tape 2234 RH - 1 P.E.I. was not officially informed. Pure arrogance, the same kind of arrogance that the Ministry of Transport is responsible for Coastal boat ferry services in Labrador, the same kind of arrogance was also shown on the ferry service from Portugal Cove to Bell Island last week. NR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ Order~ I would request the hon. minister to confine hi.s remarks to the matters referred to in the petition. I realize that in so doing he may well comment on matters closely related.

But the dividing line between closely related and by a great leap of the imagination related is one that I ask bon. members to impose upon themselves. MR. MORr.AN: Thank you, '"lr. Speaker. While I was may he getting away a small bit, Mr. Speaker, what I was trying to do was show that this matter is a federal matter. If the present attitude of the Federal Government towards the existing ferry services we have in the Province and the Coastal boat services, unless that attitude changes, then the han. gentleman's petition is going to go on deaf ears in Ottawa. That is what I am getting at, Mr.

Speaker. ~ut I can assure the han. gentleman from }laskaupi (IIr. Goudie) that representations will be made quite strongly from this hon. gentleman in Ottawa in the next number of weel's and months to have the Coastal hoat services to Labrador improved as they should have been improved the last number of years. SOHE liON. MEMRERS: Hear, hear~ HP... SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, my friend and colleague, the gentleman from Eagle River,is not in the House today. He is in his district attending a number of meetings on public matters.

So perhaps in his absence I could say a word or two to indicate that we very much support the prayer of the petition. Indeed most, if not all of the people who signed the petition, judging from the places read out by the gentleman from Naskaupi,are residents of the district, the constituency of Eagle River • . 6J/55

April 21'1, l<l7!\. Tape ?.234 RH - 2 HR. RORJ\RTS: In supportin~ the petition, Sir, may I begin by sayin~ I am really very, very pleased that <-~e hRve a Hinister of Transportation and Communications who pressures OttawR.. I have not figured out yet whether he is doing it in his personal sense, in his ministerial capacity, officially, unofficially, or in his capacity as the best dressed man of the year. But I am equally glad, Sir, I am equally glad, Hr. Speaker, that we have a Liberal Government at Ottawa,as he has reminded us,which responds - I say sorry? HR. noonY: I say we are glad - ~'R.

ROBJ'RTS: Yes, I am glad they are too. l,Jhen you see what the Tories did for this Province, Sir, you know why I am glad we have a Liberal Government at Ottawa. Mr. Speaker, the hon. ~lin is ter of Finance is not allowed to enter into debate,nor am I. If we could I would be very happy to debate it with him. In the meantime perhaps he would control himself as best he can. The point I am makinF:, Sir, is I am awfully glad we have a Liberal Government at Ottawa which responds in a meaningful way to the seductive tones with which the Minister of Transportation approaches them.

Now, Sir, the prayer of this petition is a reasonable one. I am not sure I would go so far,and I am not sure that even the gentleman from claskaupi (Mr. J. r.oudie) meant to go so far as to say that nobody should he allowed to travel - l·IR. HORr.AN : You will get more good news next week. }1R. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order! ~{Tt. ROBERTS: t1r. Speaker, the gentleman from Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) should control himself. I realize it is a struggle for him, Sir. But his seduction, his seductive tactics, Sir, should be aimed at Ottawa and not at me. I am not the ~1inister of Transport in Ottawa.

I have a better chance of being the Hinister of Transport in Ottawa than does he,but I am not nor do I expect to he. Now the point I am making, Sir, is that the gentleman from Naskaupi I do not think meant to say that nobody should be allowed to travel on the Coastal boats expect people who live along the Coastal communities and who must, as he pointed out, use the boats as 1 really,their 6Qi6 ··' •

April 28, 1976 . Tape 2234 RH - 3 I ITt . ROBF.P.TS: ~eans of transportation. I think they should be given priority. It is not a new problem. lt is a very old problem . It has cropped up on the Island. It has cropped u~ on the South Coast in the district of LaPoile, in the olrl district of Burgeo-LaPoile and the present district of Hurgeo­ Bay d'F.spoir . It cropped up with respect to Harbour Oeep often represented by my friend, the member for Baie Verte-h~ite Bay. l-lr. Speaker, let us also remember two other things .

First of all for the benef it of the Min~ster of Transportatioo , and so he will s end the pe tition to the right place , the Coastal boats are not operated by the Ninistry of Transport. They are operated by the CNR. That is the way the terms of union set it up . The Government of Canada foo t the bill . The CNR operate them and thus comments about the operating principles and practices should be directed to the CNR. I am not sure the Ministe r of Transportation anpreciates t hat . I want to remind him.

Second - HR. }10RCAN: The 'li nistry of Transport is responsible for transportation policy. ~!R • ROBP.RTS : Hr. Speaker, let the hon . gentleman contain himself . The c::m is operated by a boa~:d of (toverno r s who are appointed by t he Government of Canada . I would suggest, Sir, that the directors of the r.NR '~oulcl he very offt'nded - ~!P. • SPE.I\Kl:R : Order , please! Order, please! I should point out chat when peop le are speaking to petitions there shoul d not be,and incleecl cannot be any de~ate,and that interjections almost inevitably lead ·to debate and indeed constitute debate . MR.

P.OBERTS: Thank you, fu . - 6057

Arri.J ~r, 197(; Tare no. 2235 N'! 1 ~~ _119~GAN· A l'Oint of order, Mr. Sneaker. ~~~rE~: A point of order. ~!- HORGAf!:__ The hon. gentleman is misleading the House by saying that the repre~entations as indicated today by my friend from Naskaupi (I!r. r.oudie) should be passed on to the CNR. The CNR is acutally controlled hv the Ministry of Transport. Therefore , revresentations,as I earlier indicated,should be made to the Ministry of Transport which controls CNR. ::_~ SPEAKER: Order, nlease! HR. ROBERTS' Mr.

Speaker, to that point of order, hefore Your Honour makes a decision. ~~ ·--S~E~!R_:_ I ~~ould sur,p,est that on a number of occasions the Chair will certainly hear submissions,and on other occasions solicit submissions. I think there are some occasions where a matter is called a point of order where it is self-evident and that there would be no need to hear •ubmissions,and I think this is a case as such and that there is no valid point of order before the Chair. ~~E~T~: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I must defend myself against the allegation by the hon. gentleman I am misleading the House.

I am not even misleading him,and heavens knows, Sir, he is instantly easier to mislead on his record than is the House. The point I wish to make, Sir , is that the CNR operate these coastal boats and thi* is a matter having to do with the operations of them. The further point I wish to make, Mr. Sl'eaker. ~:-~-~CAN : Mr. Speaker, on a point of personal privilege. ~~p~~ER : Point of privilege. MR. MO~AN: If the bon. gentleman is going to stand in sul'port of petitions signed by thousands or hundreds of residents on the Labrador Coast.- SOI!E HON. ~!EMBE R S: Oh, oh! HR • SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR.

MORGAN: I take exception to the -

April 28, 1976 Tape No. 2235 NM- 2 ~-- _SJ'EAKER: Order, please! I must ask hon. gentlemen to my right,and indeed if there are any interruptions to my left, all hon. gentleman to please remain silent so that I may hear what the hon. gentleman is saying and then decide whether it is a point of privilege. MR. MORGAN: ------ Mr.

Speaker, the point I am making, if the hon. gentleman is wishing to stand and support a petition signed by thousands of Labradorians, a part of this Province, or hundreds of residents oft Labrador, I sincerely hope that he will refrain from abusing a member of the House of Assembly er a Minister of the Crown • . ~Jl~N_. _ _!:~ER: Order! Order! Order! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. MORGAN: In his statements he is abusing - MR. SPF.AKER: Order, please! AN HON. MEMBER: Sit dQWn boy where there is order called. MR._~_P~E~: Order!

Again this is an occasion where a decision can be made because I think it is self-evident and that no purpose would be served by hearing arguments. I hope hon. gentlemen agree with the general principle on which I am going here,and that is on some opportunities one will ask for,and certainly on many opportunities ~ne will be glad to hear,but there are some which are aelf-evident,and that there is nothing to be served 1 and in my opinion this is such a one and that there is no valid point of privilege ; a difference of opinion, but there is no po~nt of privilege. MR. RORERTS: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, and I am very grateful for your ruling. But the only thing I would say is that the hon. gentleman oppos1teiand I cannot say knowingly,but obviously,repeatedly is abusing these points in an effort to make points in di!lbate and I am aot permitted to reply to them,but let me say simply, Sir, that the hon. gentleman opposite has had none of his privileges abased, he has had none of his orerequisites of office abused, All that he has done, Sir, is

April 28, 1976 Upe No. 2235 NM- 3 MR. __ RQBERTS: P.xpose once again the reason why his seductive approach to Ottawa has proven so notably successful. Now let me make a fiinal point in supporting this petition, Sir, tt is one that I would direct properly and appropriate to the minister conc•rned. If he is concerned, if he is concerned about the travelling conditions which the people, Sir, on the Coast of Labrador must face. May I point o•t to him, Sir, two ways in which ~is administration, his government,as he is fond of telling us, as if he were the Queen, ean make a positive . contribution.

First of all, Sir~ they can increase the subsidy which they pay, statted by the Liberal Government,to the people who use Labrador Airways to travel by air, That subsidy must be increased and that will bring down the cost and many of the people, not just the commercial travellers but ordinary people going back and forth on the Coast use that, ae if the Minister of Transpor~ation is prepared to put a few dollars where his .auth is, Sir, let him do that. Secondly let him do something to provide airttrips instead of - MR. MORGAN: A point of order. Ah, sit down. Sit down. MR~ ~EAKER: A point of order has been raised.

MR • . !9.!fE_:_ You are the most pointless point of order. MR. MORGAN: It is not now relevant to the~petition tabled by the hon. meaber for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie). The rules of the House indicates that an bon. gentleman may comment on the petition in support of,or an the petition. The petition tabled by the bon. member for Naskaupi is not with regards to air services, none whatsoever. It is pertaining to the Labrador services provided by the coastal boat service of CN. ~ _ROB_!RTS: Mr. Speaker, if I · may to that point of order. The bon. geatleman opposite either did not hear the petition or has forgotten it.

Let me say, Sir, the point of the petition had to do with the transportation services made available,and let me say, Sir, that the minister opposite in speaking in support of the petition &QfiO .•

April 28, 1976 Tape No . 2235 ~.!-Rpl!_E,&T1_: w-ithout any objection from this side, Sir , 1~andered sufficientlv far away from the coast .al boat service to talk about the alleged arroganc e of the hon. Mr. Lang in Ottawa. the reaction of the Minister of Transportation in Nova Sco tia to certain events 1 to the fact that he had not been informed "off tc:ially " and other abuses of his - !1!·- ~RGAN..:_ A point of order. A point of or der . ~·~~~ERTl: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman opposite has raised two poin ts of order - I am sorry a point of order and a point of Privile~e t hat Your Honour dismissed without even calling on any~ ody other than the plaintiff to make his case, which shows how weak the case was .

Now Your Honour has asked for submissions from both sides on what - at least at first blush the bon. gentleman has stumbled across an apparent point of order, and all I am doing­ and le t him control himself-is attempting to show as I believe to be correct, that he has no more point of ord er than he has meri t in his ap~roach to the problems of transportation in this Province . I sahnd t , Sir, that 6061

April 28, 1976 Tape 2236 IB-1 "R. ROBERTS: tvhat I 'YYas saying wa,; precisely in point of the subject matter of the petition. All I wlsh to do is to make a sentence or two to conclude my remarks. If the hon. gentleman opposite, the member for Bona vista South (Hr. ~~organ), in his professional, personal, political, official, ministerial or even private capacity could just control himself and contain himself for a moment or two longer I shall conclude. ~- SPEAKER: Order, please: SOME HON. }1EMBE'PS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The point of order was with respect to the relevance of the remarks of the han.

Leader of the Opposition. In my opinion they were not out of order as being irrelevant. I was about to interject myself and caution him with respect to debate. I think I would ask him nm.• in concludinr; his remarks to bear that point in mind. _MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, ~r. Speaker. That makes three out of three for the gentleman opposite now, Sire Three strikes - he is out.

Let me saying in concluding, Sir, that if the hon. gentleman is sincere in his desire to improve transportation services available to the people of Coastal Labrador, everybody concerned agrees that the biggest thing that could be done is to provide airstrips. If talk could provide airstrips there would be one four miles long and 150 miles wide in Labrador. l"P • MORGAN : On a point of order, ~!r. Speaker. The hon. gentleman was just ruled - a ruling was just given by the Chair that the hon. gentleman in talking about airstrips tvas getting involved in debate. The hon. gentleman is now out of order again. }'R .

TlOR!mTS : To that point of order, ~'r. Speaker. As I understood Your HCinour 's ruling, you ruUng t,•as that I was not allowed to get into debate. Hell,that is common ground. But I would submit, Sir, that Your. Honour,as I understood and heard,made no reference to the fact that mentioning an airstr:f .p was out of order. . All I am doing is

,'.prU 2R; 1976 Tape 2236 TB-2 }I'. POBEllTS: makinr, an example. I said that H talk could buHd an airstrip the hon. l~inister of Transportation and Cmmnunications 'muld have had an airstrip in every co!ll1'lunity from Black f'.ocks,,<bich is the border, to Nain and He mi tth t even have one at Hebron or Saglek or even at Cape Chiclley.

I suhll'i.t, Sir, there is no point of order and that I should be allm,,ed - all I ''ant to do is flni .sh a sentence, Sir, if the bon. member coulc1 hut contain his sense of self i~portance long enough to Jet me finish it. ~'T' • SPEN<EP: ~'11. llOBET:TS: I 'I' • C.Pl' AKEr: f"1rfler, please! He is irresistible. T <lo not think the hon. gent] eman wall out of orcler in the case put folVarcl by the bon. minister. I would point out that this I ~muld have to check.

I would have to adjourn for a fe'' minutes to check,but it is my impression that althoup,h obviously "'e have rules Hith respect to petitions, that there is a certain c1iscretionary power in the Chair "lith respect to terminating not debate,but co~ent. I am not saying that there is. I am sayin? that it is 111y :l_mpression that there is,and if I were to use it then obviously I ~muld want to adjourn for a few minutes to be flttre.

But :If we cannot dispense with the couunents on the petition without frequent interrupt~ons and sHuations certainly leading to clehate, a situation which one cloes not expect to occur ann <.•hich should not occur in the presentation of peti.tions, then I would an_iourn for a feH ll'inutes to check what is my impression to be sure I was right before T"ak~ng such a ruling. The bon. Leader of the Opposition. ,.,., !'JYfiE~TS: ~hank you, Your Honour. That makes four out of four. The bon. gentleman iR hatting ''ell toc1ay. rr.

Speaker, all I w1s saying, the sentence I have tried about thrice to get out of me is that if the han. gentleman, the )finister of Transportation anc1 f:om!'mnications ,is sincere in his c1esire to ~improve the transportation facilities available to the people of r.oastal T~abrac1or, (comma, for hjs 6063

t•r r U 28, 1976 Tape 2236 IB-3 •·r. ROBP."TS: bene fi t, we 1\re ~ti ll en the sane sentence) - !'I>. J'O!U~A.'~ : I mll s'!tow you what sincere is , if vou were man enough. t'l' •• JlOIIETtTS: l~ell, h e sa ys that he is sincere, Sir. I IJould say , Sf r, that talk js cheap . t would point out, Sir, that if he is sincere, t'r. Spea ker - ~~ . ~ORGAN: They are laughing at you in Ottawa, they are laughing! J1r. nonr.RTs: No . What they are laughing at in Ottawa, Sir, is n,t T,abrador. ll'hat they are laughing at in Ottawll is the hon. ~entleman , just as they are lau ghing in this Province at the hon. pentleman, and in this House and on both sides. What 1 am .· 6064

t,pdl 2P, 197(, Tape 2237 Il1-l ,.,. r n!mrT s : tryinr. t0 f'rty, ~·r. ~pe.ql. er, if tl Je hon. f;entle!"'rt.n C<'tllci bt1t contajn hill'se] f - and he :l.s riving a splenciiCI exan1ple, Sir, of wha.t Your Honour said t~hen Your Honour just ruled that co!T'ments from the nther siae ten~ to provoke debate. He is leadin~ me astray. I rerret th<1t. He is seducing me, f'ir. Jle is being seductive again. >'T'. HOP.GAN: T al'l be:lnr se<'luctive: t'T'. 1101\E:rTS: Yes. s;r, he is being seductive and it is not parliamentary to sRy what I wnuld appropr:l .a tely say d8ht not~. But let me say, t'r.

Speaker, to finish that sentence, that if the hon. gentleman is ":incere - Yl'. !'Orr.,<N: t'l'. POBEnTS: t1'. SPEAKEr : Take care now! Take care! If the hon. r,entleman - 0rder, please! Order, please! I am now clirecting the hon. gentleman to my left to remain silent and not to interrupt the Leader of the Opposition. 11'. llnlffi: Name him! Nal!!e hiJ'T1! And just to expand on that,as the han. gentleman knows every member has the right to be heard in silence. There are times when the T!!ember :Ins i sts upon that and then it is enforced. There are times "hen "' rne!T'her aJ lo~.rs or encourages interruptions.

I think there is a third case as ,,,ell. The th:lrcl situ,.tjon,I think,is the present one, ann that :Is Hhere the hon. gentleman speaking has not specifically said he t.rishes to be hear~ in snence, or has not said anything to the contrary, hut t<rhere i.t ts evic'ent that such interruptions.which at best are permissive, tend to disrupt the busi~ess of the House. That I think is the case here.

So I shall no" ask the han. gentleman not to :Interrupt the Leacler of the Opposition even if there is a permissive attitu<!e on the part of the J.ea~er of the Opposition. t'll . •ORGAN: Even if he :l.s as kin? for it? !<T> . ~PE.'\.KEl': Even jf he fs askinp: for it, yes. I'P. ROBETlTS: Tl•ank you, ~·r. Speaker. If this were debate, I would not only ask for it I t<•ould p:ladly g:lve it back with interest to hon. ?,entlemen opposi.te. He is not.• batting five out of five. Now the point or the sentence, R1r - I think th1s is the fourth time now - if 6065

April 28, 1976 Tape 2237 IB-2 ''R. r.OBE~TS: the hon. gentleman, the ~'inister of Transportation and CoJT!IT'unications, is sin cere in hiR desire to improve the transportat:l.on facil:l .ties available to the people of roastal Labrador, - comma, the same comma we had there before - then the best way that he can do that, Sir, since all concerned 1 knowJe~geable authorities agree that the most effective meanR of Improving the transportation facilities available to the people of Coastal Labrador :Is to build new airstrips, particularly in the communities between }'ary 's H.!!rbour and Nain 1which do not have any road connections at all, - col!l.ma, still in the same sentense for the benefit of the hon. gentleman - then, Sir, he can go to his colleagues and use his much vaunted. persuasive ability, this seductive ability, this ability to wheedle and to weasel and to get money out of things. ~'P..

SPEAKER: Orner, please! Order, please! I must direct the Leader of the Opposition to confine his remarks to the allegations in the pet:ltion,or matters closely related thereto,and not to his impression of the manner of executing of the duties of the hon. minister. NR. ltOBE"RTS: Thank you, }lr. Speaker, and I apologize if I was led astray by the hon. p,entJeman's seductive abilities.

But let him, Sir, qu:l,te simply let him F:O to his collear,ues in the cabinet and SAy, "Boys, let us put up a couple of hundred thousand dollars to build an airstrip or two this year." That will do far more good, Eir, than all the posturing and postulating and positing, Sir, that the hon. gentleman has tone. This government, Sir, have built airstrips - t fT'. HELLS: To a point of order. YP. SPEAKER: A point of order. t'R. \\TELLS: The hon. the J,eader of the Opposition :Is waxing eloquent. He has persisted despite the warnings from Your 'lonour in making this into a debate.

This is not a debate, simply some comment on a petition. So I ~mnld ask Your Honour to enforce this. HR; ROBERTS: If I may to that po:f.nt of order, ~r. Speaker. Let me say, Sir, that I am tryjnp: hard not to enter into debate 1 because as Your

April 28, 1971'> Tape 2237 rn-3 _·-r. ronET>TS: Ponn1•-r hall saicl.ancl Rl' the rule!' qui te cle;orl)l !'tate, that :Is not permittee\. 1 IJI'l ""erelv mald.nr a few coMment!' as requ; ret. - or as re~i ttP.~ un~er the n1,es. All I am sayin~. Sir, I may be s ayi np it el nrnPntl y and T rhank t he pentleMan frotn Kilbride (tlr . t•'ells) for his liOWintec hut deserve~ tribute, I 111ay be sayinp it e Jonuen tl y an d forcefully an~ effectfve)y but , Si r, I submit ~hat I am sayinp. iR quite in orde r. Your •Jonour has l>een quicl• to cal l an )I 1116mber to orc!er, ancl r igh tlv so .

I sub~it , Sir, that I am in order and I wo1ud like simply to concln<'e the very few r emar\>s I set out to make about fi.fteen l!':lnutes ago . 6067

April 28, 1976 Tape 2238 IB-1 ~~- SPEAY.EP: The point of order was with respect to whether the hon. member was in fact ~ebating the petition. I am not in a position to say that he ~•as debatinll: the petition. I ~·ould request him to bring hi.s remarks soon to an end. I am quite sure that the five minutes has expired. I have not timed it. r realize that there have been many interruptions. So I have not dra~~ that matter to the hon. gentleman's attention. But I would hope that that ~.;ould be the result. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. _ 'll . ROBERTS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I appreciate Your Honour's charity and generosity. I shall dra" my remarks to a close. I had largely finished "hat I wanted to say. Let me say again, Sir, that l'IY colleagues and I, including in particular the gentleman from Eagle Piver (}~r. Strachan), certain] y support a request that the people who must use the boAt service, the coastal boat service, be given an absolute priority, heca.use they must use it. To anybody else it is a holiday or a discretionary trip of some sort.

Let me say also, ~ir, that for the benefit of the minister's opposite,including in particular the rentlernan from Bonavista South (~r. ~organ) in his off1ci.aJ capacity, Sir, his ministerial capacity,as a man who represents the nueen,personally, directly and effectively, Sir, that the best way he can help the people of Coa.stal Labrador in his departmental responsibility is to find a few hundred thousand dollars and put it into airstrips. If he can persuade the Government of Canada with his seducti.ve wiles to put some money in, well and good. If not, Sir, then let him do the job.

This government, Sir, have built airstrips in Bonavista, in Winterland near Marysto~m and a number of other places throughout the Province, Some of them were carried on from the previ.ous administration but they have been UI'graded and paved since this administ -ration came into office, Sir. If the government of this Province can find money for those airstrips then, Sir, let them find a few dollars, a few hundred thousand dollars - that is all that is needed - for the people of r.oastal Labraclor. 6068

Apr:ll 28, 1976 Tape 2238 IB-2 ''T'. pnJIEPTS: I hope, Sir, iro cJosinp that when the ~'inister of rinance speaks in hi!' o~m 1n:lm:ltahle way to support that petition he will announce, Sir, that as Minister of Finance and as T'resirlent of the Tn'!asury Tloarcl that he feels 1'\0methim>, shouJ d be done about it and he wil 1 get it nonP right away. Hear, hear! S01'E llnN . ~~'BEP S : Hear, hear! - ~~. SPEAKE!!: The hen. member for La.Poil e. ''l'. NEAPY: ~·r.

Speaker, unl:lke the I.eader of the Oppos1. tion 1Jho seems to have his feathers ruffled today, Sir, I wotucl like to calmly and as hriefly as I can support the petition so ably presented by MY friend frol'l Na!<kaupi (1-'r. Goudie) on behalf of his constituent!'! who are finding H. very c'IHI'icult '":lth the present accommodations th<lt they have from Happv ' 'alley, J presume, ri~ht up the coast r:l p,ht up as far I'IS Nain. J prest1me thl'lt the coastal service that the member referred to originates mainJy in St. John's, maybe to a certain degree from T.ewisporte bnt m<li.nly froJT! St. John's.

T would 11ke to point ont to the Fouse, ~·r. Spe>aker, that this year :It is a bit of a new hall game because the ferry F:lll :1 <1m rarson wii 1 be operat:lnr, I unde>rstand, from Le1J1 !'!porte to TTappy Valley, from St. John 1 s to J,e1,•isporte to Happy ''IIlley, so it 1muld seem to me that so!'le cof the coastal boats now that are carryin~ the tourists, carrying the passengers - and I cln not think the memher me;ms to p,et dd of the tourist i ,nd.ustry in :-lorthern Labrador, heccouse . lop: cabins and clubs and tavern:> and so fnrth have opene~ in recent years in the cot111!!unit:les :In Northern L,J,racor.

It is just start:lnr to open up to the tcourist industry. T r'co not think the Jl!:ln:Jster means to ba.r that but '>ouJd l:lke to see tl1e peof)le - and rip;htly so - in Northern L11bratlor p:et preference. ~o T all' ~oinp- to Jl!a~- e a suggestion to the member and the minister. T do nnt know :If it is a practical sugfe!'ltion or not. I n~ r.o:lng to make a sup:p:est:lon alonp: the sa!'le lines that CN rlid on the South1-1est Coast, that they hrourht in these f'mal 1 type ferries, these 6069

April 28, 1976 Tape 2238 IB-3 ''~~· N'PARY: fast boa t s. ! c'lo not know what the distance is be~een Happy Valley and Nain . Is it 150, 200 miles? AN ItO!il. )!ID-!JIER: '!lore than that. 1-'R . NEARY: }lore thAn that. Pell it would be - AN HON. HEl1BEP: About 300. !~ . !lEARY: About 300 miles . 1 did not realize it IJas that far. llell then,my su!!gestion, Sir, may be impractical, t o get a fast boat to r.o from Happy Valley to Nain in one dav . It would not be possible to c'lo it, like the Runner for instance which leaves Port aux Basques, p,oes down to naMea and back apain in the same day.

It makes a round trip in one day . ~~. ooonv: It Js not the same Runner that left Bell 1sland the year before? 1' . NF.APY: No . And then you have the Sprinter. That is the one that is left on Bell Island, the Sprinter. 6070

A:>ri1 ?3, 1'176. l'R. nr:,\RY: ~H - I P.ur th:1t woulcl he IJOrth lookin? i.n.to, Sir, because I think vou are Jeoing to nrc•'! <1 riifferPnt tvnP of hoat, a fast hoat,because most of the people that travPl travt>1 jn t~e Summertime from Bappy Valley to Nain. They do not want to fly in the Sullll'lertime. They want to p,o by hoat. I presume it is chP"-p<"r and it is rrohahJ y more convenient because they t~ant to carry freight and carry parcels and so forth.

So I helieve what is necessary, Sir, nm1 that this ne'{ run of the Hilliam Carson is starting up this year and will probably continue, I think what the minister should concentrate on is to try to get the CN to either operate a service .iust from Happy Valley to tlain, back a.ncl forth, maybe a boat leaving Nain anrl one leaving llap;'y V"-lley at the same time,or just leaving Happy Valley, going up and ml'tl<inr: t'l-te return trip back,or p,et a different type boat rlesiF;ned for the ~ervice, r:et a faster boat that would r:ive the pe!'lple the service that they rightly cleserve on that Coast. MR.

ST'VN<FR: The hon. 'Minister of Finance. TTON. H. nonny: .Tust a few words, Sir, in support of the petition from my hen. friend from ~asJ.-aupi. The transportation problems on the Coast of Labrador art> somet'l-t1nr, that ~re certainly not new. They seem tC'I he hecoming more obvious. They are certainly beinr. brought more to the attention of the puh 1i c through the !louse and through the memher ,;ince he has i oinecl thF' TTonsP. 1 f!'el th<'lt the situation is one that shoulrl have been remedierl a Jon~, lon~ while BRO. It is a part of Canada.

It has been long neglected by the depart~ent responsible , hy the federal department responsible. I think that it is one that is really one of the cryinp, shames of ne~lect of a part of Canada that js one of the real frontier areas that rleserves attention "-ncl deserves consirleration. I should sav, Sir, in supportinr, it,though,that I woulrl li~e to say "- Horcl or two about the hon. the Leader of the Opoosition's comments rep;ardinp landing strips on the Coast of Labrador. I think that that is one of the most obvious and outstanding areas of neglect in this Province, one that shoulrl have heen looker!

Itt a long, long while ap,o, should have heen addresserl a long, long while ago, and I think for the first time is heing 6071

April 28, 1976. HR. DOODY: Tape 2239 RH - 2 addressed. I know that the Federal Department of Transport, the M.O.T., have had an assistance. The Northern Indian Affairs Department,' I think, have had a programme of assistance in northern areas in landing strip programmes.

This Province has never, despite all its representations to the Federal Government with the exception of last year when I think we, or the current fiscal year, we achieved a magnificent contribution of $100,000 from that nrogramme, In all the years of Confederation the service to one of the most neglected and one of the most deprived areas of Canada, one of those areas that are most needy in terms of communications, our first and only gesture from Canada in their Northern - and there is a vote for it. Every year in the Federal House of Parliament there is a vote, Your Honour, for Northern landing strips.

We have never been able, despite all the seductive wiles of all the various ministers involved through the years - and I would attribute that with great respect to our predecessors in the previous administration because I can assume that they made the same, or at least I would hope that they made the same,or even perhaps some of them or stridened representation and the provinces we have to get the sort of landing strip facilities that are necessary. ~nitoba has had its share. Saskatchewan has had its share. The major share of that vote has always gone and continues to go to Quebec. It is still going into Quebec.

We have never been successful in doing so. But I would refer the han. the Leader of the Opposition and put it in the record of the House that in this year's estimates, in Transportation and Communication, as he asked my seductive friend, the minister responsible, to approach me as Hinister of "'inance and as President of Treasury Board, I would refer to him to page 105 in the estimates, landing strips, 1706-03-06, there is landing strips capital, $632,000. I think that you will find th"t that is the first time there has been."a substantial vote.

They 1.;rill. be spent in the Coast of Labrador or perhaps in Burgee, all of these places that have been neglected during the previous administration's twenty-five year period. SOME liON. :-!EMBERS: Hear, hear~ 607i

April 2R, l<l76. Tape 2239 RH - 3 NR . llOODY: The first move forward for the Province of Newfoundland, with hs own limited r esou rces , Hith our meager resources and capital wod~ s have found it necessary to delve into our own meager resources to prc>Vtde the transportation and communications system that has been p~ssed out from Ottawa for other provinces, Many of which are more prosperous than we have been . Rlanc Sahlon, for instance, on the Co~st of Labrador ,on the Ouebec border~tbis year has got its air strip paved .

That hanpens to he fortun ate enou~h,perhaps,to be on thn other side of the Quebec bord er. l~e on the Labrador side are not in that happy rasition . Perhaps some of the people there cAn correct th~t hv m;~l-in~ a tra<IP. with the Province of Quebec and give them a few hundred thousand square yards of terri tory and they mi~ht give us a few yar ds of pavement in exc~ange . I do not thin k the people in son

April 28 , 197(, Tape 2240 PK - 1 :tr. __ lloody: tlcw(o uncllan<l arc p-ccrared to make that sort of exchan~e, Sir . l~e •·dll stic!: with c-ur o•m small capital g rants and we \li ll try co (lo IL <>n <>Ur oom.if jt mc:ms f!iVin~ up our integrity ond our t<'rrito r y . llear, hear ! The hon . me~~er for Trinity-Ray de Verde. a r. Spe aker, I would just like to speak. a few wor d11 o f surrorL in th<.> petition presented by the member from ·~ a ~;knupi (!'r .

J. r.oudie) , and 1 hopP I am granted the sr.me latitu de :1s tl•e tlin ister of rln ance wns just r.r anted in supporting the petition . 1 ..,.ould simply like to say just one thing. ~lr. . ROBERTS: Las t year they budge ted $450 'Fre d' and spent ss ,noo. Yes, Sir , the budge t last year, Sir , was - $450 ,000 budgeted. l'P . ROllE : <;1,50 ,000 and the actual amount spent was - ''l' . RORE::':'S: S500. t"ll . ROI~E : $51)0, which gives SOllie indication Of the sincer1tv of th<' pr <.>scnt administ ration H" .

ROr.FJ!TS: Ami of th<' mi uis t c J; . -in I'Utti nJ: nirstrips in thj s particular l'rovi.nce and in lal> r ador . ~1 1 ' • W)I\CM-1: I only became mi nister last Fall . ' If' . RO''E: ---- Cut may 1 ju~c make one sug&estion over t he noi~;.-s P.l'l:matilly. from the ~!in ister of Transportation and Communications, MP. . MORGAN: Are vou ~oi n~ to support the pe tition, or what? vn . RO\'I: : :tr.

Spea ke r, I do not think the way to ge t succe~;~ful ne~otia tions or expendi~ures of money from Ottawa is to st:~nd in this llc>.tso and l:lsh out nt every oppo t tunity at va rious mlnl~tr r ~ in O tt~~. $0~!f. liON. '1£.'1\ERS: llea r, hea r! 11R. r:rn . .rr:: l~c> hRvo see n thi s ti.me and time and time and time Olj::tin. lo~e have scco it this afternoon - 6074

April 28, 1976. Tape 2240 PK- 2 l·ffi. HORGAN: Right: Do not say anything about Ottawa - lffi. RO\.JE: Now, Mr. Speaker, - MR. Sl'EAKF:R: Order, please! }'R. ROWF.: - I ask for the same - HR. }\ORGAN: - and their buddies up there. }fR. SPF.AKF.R: Order, nlease! I must direct the hon. !\entleman to the rule, no doubt well familiar, and that is that his remarks are to be on the material allegations of the petition, and obviously this well may lead to matters related, as long as they are closely related. The hon. gentleman did refer to latitu~P. of other soeakers.

I Hill point out that to the best of my memory when previous speakers spoke with respect to a different form of transportation, such as airstrips, it was as a development or an example of the argument of transportation, but I \~ould not wish to get into a discourse specifically on airstrips and specifically on a vote in a department of government, a specific estimate. These things are made as a comparison or as an example or to emphasize a point, as long as the point deals with the material allegations to the petition. That is v7'lat I wish to draw to the attention of the han. r,entleman. lfR.

ROWE: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. The whole question, of course, has arisen, you know, we are talking about the sincerity of the eedetal or the Provincial administration, and as an example in l'l74-1975 there were zero dollars spent for the landing strips, in 1~75-1Q76, ~450,0'10 estimated and the actual amount spent $50~. NoH this year He have $652,11'10, and I sincerely hope, Sir, that this administration Hill spend that estimate, and that it will. he an expenditure and not an estimate - snHE HOJo: . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. R01JJ\: - as has been the case in years gone by. l'-1r. Speaker, on a paint of order. 6075

Ar>rU 28, 1976 Tape 2240 PK- 3 1'?.. SPFI\KER : 1\ point of order. The hon . tinister of Trans11ortation :md Communi cntions. ~~~ . ROI-!E: ~ly son . thts is like the black flies of Labrador! HR:....!.J9_RGAi'<: l!r . Speaker, on a point of order . 'IR . ~Pf'AKT'R: A point of orde r. l'R . tfORCAN: The hon . gentleman is now debating an estimate heading in the r>epartll'cnt of Transportation and Communications . He are not on thr e-stimates of my departnlent. l-ie are supportin!l or commenting on the petition that was tabled in this House today by the hon . $(Pntleman f r on Na.-;k::~upi (Mr.

Goudie) . l~ e are not debating ±ndiVidual l'ubhcadings of estir.>ates, we are not d.ebating the amount of funds we spent on airstrips, we are supporcinr. and commenting on a petition . '1R . ROlli'RTS : --- --- '1r. !\penke r , to that point of order. tilL SPF'AKER: The hon . Lender of the Opposition. 'olr.

Speake r, the l'inister of Finance made an examplt!, I 1;1ay odd at the SJfC C.<; tion of his collear.ue from Donavista Sou th (!lr . '1o r ~an) , and all that my friend and colleague is doing is merely r eferring to the snme example , 1\nd if it is in order to make the ex~plr, and surely it must have been or the knowledgeable &entlem an from llonavista South :would not have made it, then, Sir , surely it il.s ln order to c~rnment upon it . The re is no debate. I only wish we could deh<~Ll' it .

Let ne s:~y, Sir , that the hon . gentleman from Bonavista South rentnds me exac t ly of what is r.oinp, on nt the Clearvie'~ Drive-in toni gh t, ~ m.:Jtter of transportation, n drive-in . The paper tells us that among the features that is playing tonight ''She is Seventeeu and 1\nldou~t", Si:-, 3ntl th:tt desc rib es the hen . gentleman . Let the debate carey on, Sir. 607~

AprH 28, 1976 Tape ·2241 ~· r. !';1'EL'.Kl'.l': Order, please! There is no douht that the l~st sentense or two the hon. Leader of the Opposition was not relevant to the point of order. Ill-1 Pith respect to the point of order, the bon. me!'lber for Trinitv-llay ile ~'erde (l"r. F.

Rowe) may ~in orcler to clevelop a point relevant to the petition, ~ay make a reference to this matter of airstrips, hut l1e tvoulc1 be out of orcler to develop a eli scourse on airstrips unless it 5.s <lone as a subsidiary arpnment or to emphasis a point. llut tn inst ?:ive a discourse on airstrips or on expennitures for airstrips woulc1 be out of orc1er, tmuld not be relevant to the petition. '!J'.. ROHF. : Thank you for the Jl:td clance, Yr. Speaker. I take 1 t that applte~ to any other tvpe of strips. Sir, there is only one other po:!nt that I 1vould 1;jncerely like to make in support:fng this petition.

That is that hon. minister'~ opposite refrain from publicly attacking Ottat.Ta and l'linisters :in Ottawa because it can only ieopardize any ongoing negotiations for the succe~s of the things that are called for in this very petition. ~· R. MORr.AN :· I, ike 0] d l'e-rlic11n? "0\olf.: Now 1 is ten, l"r. Speaker, tf they want to talk about Old T'f'r] 1 can I •'ill rape the l'inister of Fisheries in this House. l 'l'. ROBERTS: Is that in order 'Fred', is that in order? Seducing him is hut not rap:!np him. ~'T'.

POHF.: llecause J have held my tonpue pretty, pretty close] y i.n the last two or. three tveeks on that one. MR. POP.El'TS: To thflt point of order, Sir, 1f the hon. p,entleman t>."2S in orde-r- he ~'O U]d he seducin~ hiM not raping him, Sir. MP .• ROWE : ~~o~~T I thj.nk my poi.nt is ~rell tal <en, ?"r .. Speaker. ''T' . SPl'.i\VEI' : A point of orde.r. A point of order. ~~~ r.mm : _ ' ~ r. Speaker, could I just finish. I ,<J:!Jl f:in:fsh with one tolorcl. rm. HF:LLS: To a point of order, Hr. Speaker. The th:lng is p;ett:lnr, out of hancl :In the House.

The House today is becoming the tvorst kincl . of an example of what can and does happen :In this 6077

April 28, 1976 Tape 2241 IB-2 ><'R . HELLS; Chamber. I would ;<R!r Your Honour to brinp: ll'atters hack in hand . ~~- P~FPTS: To that point of order, Sir, I ap:ree for once with the r-entleman froT" K1lbr.icle (Vr. l-'ells) ann I would say that the Vouse has certainly had so111e Jevitatious m.oment,,if that is the rir,ht w>rcl.

Rnt I "':i 11 s ay, Sir, that tl-te ro.,ents of ll'Y colleague, which in turn 1e<1 to some comments by the Pinister of J'in;<nce,.,,hich in turn 1cc1 to some comments by me,all of wh:lch,I sugp;est,• 'ere. out of order, wE're proll'ptec1 solely and simply, Sir, by yet ;mother interjection frov: the pentlemnn from l1onav:fstA South (Hr.

Horp:an) 1who has . already been told by Your l!onour in no uncertain terr>s 1 in a statement that i.~ 1'1 prelude to beinr - the statement which His Honour made from the Chair is I'! prelune to naminp: a member - the hon. pentlell'an from nonavista South ("r. l"orglln) has been rl:frected to being ouiet except "'hen accordinp: to the rules he l'lay speak.

Sir, if "'e have str;<yecl,and I think we all have-and the House Leader is "'elJ-:>rlv i sed to brine it up -- I would s;<y, Sir, that I apolop::fze And JI'V colleapues clo for our share but, Sir, let hil'l l'lRke sure that his mm house :is in order and we wj] 1 take care of our side. It i.s thP p:entlel'lan from nonavista South (>~r. Horp.an), Sir, who h~ts toucl>e<l off th1s 11nseemly levity and, Sir, he has done so deRpite Your Honour's friendly but I'!Ccurate admonit1ons to he qui r>t except when <Jccorclinr to the rules he hl'ls the ri ~ht to spe<>k.

Or~er, please~ noes the l1on. l'linister Hish to speak on this point of nrner? ''R. ~·n~C:AN: To the point of orcler, 't"r. Speaker. ~ 1'. ST'"AJCET>: !Jn the point of order hrou~ht up by the bon. House Leader? VT'. ''C111.C:A.}i[: "v hon. col lea p.:ue, the House Leader. The point of order is that this actually commenting on, which is v.1hat ~,,e nre do1nr: riJ?:11t na>?,on the petition has become a dehate. And the hon. gPntl eman in the Opposi Uon has used points of order to r.et up llnd to ma~-e r1ispararinr rel!l,rlrs about l'le!T'bers of this side of rhe llouse of Jl.sseT"hly.

The hon. gentleman ~·>ho vas speaking in 6078

""rn 2B, 1976 TApe 2241 IB-3 •·p. rnorA~: <'O'IT11'entinp on ~ petition - a comment w1s matie bv my colleague, the "infster of Fisheries rerar d1ng Old Pet"lic:m . The hon . sentleman r~(errer to ret'lied that he was r,oiny. to rape the member.

Now these are the v Intis of com111ents t h:ot h1we heen made by the npposition this afternoon th~ r my hon. collearues, the House Leade r ,is referring to, that this is c.omnletely out nf or~er ~nd they shoul~ ~et back on the right h11se an~ lt>r ns refer to the petition :tnd not t(l a t'ebate nf the kine! ~·e art' no,., see i nr 1.n t.he Rouse . •-v. rmiF.: Tc> that point of onter, :•r . Speaker.

T v:>s - ~nd it is ohvious tc> everybodv in this Asl'el"bl.y - th~>t I ~<:as plead1n~ «ith this pov ern~n t to do certain trinY.s in order not to jeopardize any ony.oinP. nep,otiations ~1.th 0ttawa with respect to road buildinr, or anythiny, else. Tt was At th:tt point that three hon . gentlemen opposite leaped in with the Olr Perlican situ;otion,about whic h 1 had been utterly !!ilent for ten to tv{'lve c!avs, in spite of the fact that TIIY constitue nts ar~ climbing do~~ my back tryinp, tn r,et some answe~s and J hAve been ~ai nt aininp silence 1n ordPr ro try to ~et a number of people top.ether . 6079

RF - 1 ~!R. Sl' foAKf.P,: The point of order raised by the hon. the Honse Leader ann the comments of the han. Leader of the Opposition thereon are very valid. To a very large extent the rules of the House are legalistic. There are technicalities. There can be interruptions from the Chair everv fi.ve minutes. There can be points of order every few minutes. This may or may not hE>ve much effect on the House at all. To a very larp.e extent it is matter of self discipline. The rules obviouslv are there. They have to be imnosed.

They are to a large extent technical and legalistic. nuJings on points of order may come every few minutes, but that docs not nPcessarily improve the nosition of the House for the consideration of puhlic ~usiness.

The point I am making is emphasizing the sP1 f cli.sciplinc> which I think is essential, and pointinr. out that in f'lY opinion this 11ns heen lac kin~ durinp, the last t1~enty or thirty minutes or so • and askinp, all han. members on hath sides to practice it nm•' nnd to ~~:onflne remarks to the matters under considf>ration without interferences or nersonal remarks, The hon. memhf>r for Trinitv-Bav de Verde. SOHI. liON. l!l'HTIER: Hear, hear: lffi. l'. ROHE: Well, l~r. Speaker, I tvill certainly try to 1-1rap up my remar1's rm nuic1:1 y as possible if I do not have any interruptions from the otl1er siclP.

Nay T iust in closing say this, that it is, I suppose , in order for private members both on the government and Opposition side to take :'lny other government to tas~· on certain rolicy . Rut t·thPn a minist!'r of the Crmvn attach• another level of p:overnme.nt on a point about •Nhich he TTlav be negotiating wtth that government at that pi'lrticuJ ar til"P jt cr-~n onlv do this Province l1arrn. /Ill !'tl'l. l'l'lffiER: 11r.ar, hear! HR.

ROh'f.: The only thinr, that I aro sincerely retJuPsting the ministers opposite to c1o is to refrain from puhl icly attackinR ministers of the Crown in littm·m l"''caus<" t lwsP are the very people with v7hom they IJave to negotiate . Nmo during nn election it is a different matter. That is the only point 6080

April 2R, lq7fi. !"R . F. rcwr:: tl1at I want to makP. ~~R. ST'fAJan: The hon. member for "ogo. RH - 2 r.ArT. 1:. HE!SOR : ~lr. Speaker, in supporting this petition I feel I am rerhaps in a better position to be able to enlighten the Rouse on the transportation in 'lort"c:>rn Labrador especially. I can 11;0 hack, Sir, as far back as 1 Q31\ lvhen at that time the Department of Natural Resources under the Couunission of Government chartered the family vessel, the Winnifred Lee which operated at Northern Labrador services for nearly thirty years. HR. HICKMAN: Grand Bank. HR.

I•IINSOR: OriRinally owned at Grand Bank, huilt in Shelburne and built hy ' !r. nuffet, I think, of Grand Bank, I am not too sure cif that. llm~ever that service continued for more than tlventy-five, nearly thirty ye,n;. In spite of <.;hat the hon. members have said, since that time there has been a continuation of improveJTlents in transportation in Labrador. T,et me ;ust lead un to the present time. In 1950 - and that was way hack Hhen we had the <:vle leavinr: St. John's and made one trip per year into North ~Test ~iver, nne trip ancl that trip '-laS in July.

That was the only tri r th<lt the Kyle made into 'lorth \olest River, in the Hamilton River at all. However. nfter Confe c1erl'ltion the em~ took over the service. He still operated the little Hinnifred Lee , but we terminated at Hoperlale ;md vrent Nort'h as far as Hebron. Now flebron is approximately 1611 miles North of the further most settlement of Nain today. Then, of course, the CllR chartere d another one of our family vessels, the Trepassey. The Northern Labra dor service then was extended to Goose Ray. The ship leavinr, St.

John's terminated at Goose Ray, and we in turn picked up the servicP- there anrl went as far as Hebron and came back and terminated at Goo s e Ray. So 'Jhat you l1ad, you had two boats, the Southern boat terminated <'It ~oose Flay and the 'Torthern boat terminating at r.oose nay, one goinp, North and the other going South. That continuerl for a few vears. Then the service 'ws i.mnroverl apain 1-•11en they broup;ht in the Burgee nnrl put two faster boats 6081

flpri J 21\, 1 "7~'-. ~H - 3 til-(. I'JNSOR: in the ~'orthern service, the Tavenor and the Hoperlale. This provided a very r,onrl service anrl there were very little complaints from the people along the 'lort11ern Labrador Coast. Then we sa1v from the P.urgeo tn the Cahnt ~rrn1t.

/\oril 2R, 1976 Tape No. 221~3 NM- 1 r.APTAIN \HNSOR: Tt too started to service, a much larger boat, and . - --- - now of course this vear we learn that in addition to the other heats, the ~i_l_liam Carson will be operating th~t service. So. Sir. there has been a continuing improvement in the transportation svstem along the Labrador Coast, grant you not sufficient because more people are travelling today than ever before. But I 1muld agree with the hon. member who presP.nted that ryetition, that I do not think our local people are getting a fatr deal with accommodation on those boats.

Practically all of the cabin deluxe or first class cabins or deck cabins,what have you, are taken hy tourists and this is where I think ~~e should have an increase in tariff,toward the tourists, because, Sir - MR. HORGAN: 'l'Wo rates. CAPTAIN HINSOR: That is right. Because it is a tourist paradaise to - !IR. H0RC:AN: II gi veaway for tourists. CAI'_TA!_N_I ·~I_N~~~: That is right, absolutely, a pure giveaway where a tourist will fly dmm from New York, picJ.: up the CNR boat here and for $150 or less have ten days on that boat with free board , you know,and lodgings. It does not even cover the board.

CAP TA_I!i_~:!_I~~QR_:___ It does not cover the oil it takes to keep them warm. MR~--~~R~~ Two categories, resident and non-resident tickets. CAPTAIN HII!SOR: Yes,that may he a good idea. However, I just thought I would bring the House up-to-date on the improvement because I could not stand or sit here and hear the ministers and members accusing the previous governments and other governments of not improving the transportation system in Labrador. It has improved and I am a witness to the fact.

I navigated and operated the vessel for ten years rnyself,and I know what problems there are,and I know '~hat problems there were, and I know what problems there will 608·3

April 28, 1976 Tape No. 2243 NH- 2 CAPY~~ ~.'SQR~ continue to be. Now my hon. friend from LaPoile suggested that they might have faster boats. This can be done. There is no problem in operating a fast boat from Goose Bay to Cartwright one day, and the next day go back. Instead of every day you would have every second day. And the same thing applies to the Northern part. It may take two and a half days but those things may be in the future and I am sure it will be given consideration. So, Sir, I strongly support the petition and I am very happy that the hon. member for Naskaupi (Mr.

Goudie) has taken the initiative again, once again,because this is the not the first time. There have been many requests for improved transportation problems in Northern Labrador. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! ------------- MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. - ------- ~R:-~I~~~ Mr. Speaker, I just want to add a couple of words to this debate. I feel as Minister of Tourism I should say something with regards to the transportation problems in Labrador and especially with regards to the matter raised by my colleague,the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie).

First of all, Sir, I would like to say that this administration has aade repeated representations to Canadian National to provide bv charter a vessel on a tri.al baais,or as a pilot project,to cater to the people interested, tourists I mean, interested in going up the Labrador Coast and we have liteld many discussions with CN officials on it. I cannot say that Canadian National has expressed a great deal of interest,and are not opposed at all to the idea.

They agree with us that there is a very real potential and I think, at least my impression of those discussions are simply that funds have not been available in the past. And the other issue seems to have been the fact that they should do something to provide a link between Goose Bay, Lewisporte and St. John's before getting into what c:o1,1ld be termed,! suppose,a more luxury type of vessel. 6084

April 28 , 1976 Tape No. 2243 ~~· !liQ<~ t'ow that this has come about, the l~ill.iam <'.a!_!?_OE. ROing from St. John's to Lewisporte to Goose !lay, not~ that that is out of the 1~ay . I would ho pe that Canadian Natio nal can pursue fu rther , and hoo efully be successful in bringing about a kind of cruise ship which we can develop package tours for oeonle who are interested in J!,Oing up that Coast,and I can assure this hon. House, Mr. Speaker, that the surface is bare ly scratched in t his regard , Ther e are a great number of enquiries and a nrea t deal of interest in this kind of developmen .t. 6085

Apri.l 2R, 1971' Tape 2244 PK - 1 •·le jn our discussions with Canadian National have pointed out that certainly a vessel that could be chartered to go to th~ Labr;~dor Coast and be developed by way of package tours during the prime tourist season,could then be used to go South, cruise South ln Southern waters in the Winter. Mr. Speaker, if the great numher of people lvho have gone to warmer climates this present Hinter is any indication , than certainly the business is there for someone to tap. So I wouJd suggest that the problem of tourists usinp, the coastal vessels - }!R_,_ . ~Oim: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order. ~R. SPEAKER~ A point of order raised by the han. member for Trinity- P.ay de Verde. '!B. ROWE: Hr. Speal~er, J find the comments of the han. minister extremely interesting, but, Sir, he is completely irrelevant to the particular petition that has been presented to the House of Assembly. HR. MORGAN: You only want vour side to speak! !·'R • ROl.JE : ----- Just one moment now. On this particular side we have heen ruled out of order on a number of occasions as a result of noints of order raised by hon. members opposite in not being strictly relevant to the petition.

Now I find the minister's comments sincere and interesting and informative, but they are not strictly related to the particular petition with which we are dealing. So I just bring this to the attention of the Jlouse,and if the rules of relevancy are going to be applied they should be applied equally to both sides. HR. HICKEY : ~ 1r. Speaker, on that point of order. 11R. SPEAKER: ------- The han. Minister of Tourism speaking to the point of order. ~1R. J1I CKEY : ------ rlr.

Speaker, first of all, I find it astounding having sat hLre for the last hour and fifteen minutes ,and listened to all the jargon that has gone on in relation to this very vital subject lvhich has kept us np until this time. Certainly nohody wishes to cl ose off debate on this very vital subject. But, Mr. Speaker, I

April 28, 1976 Tape 2244 PK - 2 that I am not out of order at all, that the matter raised by ~1y fr1E'nd from Naskaupi (l!r. Goudi

e) indeed calls into question the ahnse of this space or the misuse of the serYice, the costal service going to Labrador, and. I am simply providing the !louse with information where my department and this administration has made som~ valiant efforts to sort that very matter out. SO~II' liON. MEHBFRS: Hear, hear! - - -·- IIR. HIC:KEY: And so, Mr. Speaker, if I might now just finish by saying - ~SJEAKF.R : Before the han. gentleman does that the point of order should be decided.

As I recall the allegations of the petition presented by the han. ~~ntleman from Naskaupi with respect to complaining of the service in that area and that residents had inappropriate or no accommodation; and that much of the accollll1lodation vas taken up hy tourists, a suggestion that tourists perhaps should not he on it,and the space reserved exclusively for residents or something very closely related to that: As I understand the hon. ll in i ster of Tourism's remarks,he is speaking on one of the several ~llegat l ons and that is with respect to the tourists taking the place of the re s idents.

So in that respect he is in order. Th:mk you, 1-'r. Speaker.

May I say, and may I not delay t l.e l;otise nny longer, s imply to my colleague from Naskaupi that I ;1 r ree \d t h hiM completely that many times this space, this vital spac e required by residents of Labrador is taken up by tourists, and t!lat hi s arr:ument indeed is a very valid one, and the issue is a very vi tal one, and I simply wish to point out to him that he has my support Rs '~ e ll as every action that we can take, and we will continue to pursue tile matter with rep,ards to the issue that I raised insofar as a special vessel to enter to tourists ancl to provide Rn improved service for the resid ents of Labrador th~~:oup;h the coastal service. 6087

April 28, 1976 TApe 2245 IB-1 r. Ar_~I~·:Sn..':.:_ ":~v I asl.: the l'lin:ister A question? ''ll. f'PT\N(f1': T think thAt to ap:ree would be perhaps a kind of r:t:ececlent . The hon. ~ember for St. John's North. l'r. Spe>aker, before we move on I have a petition of my ovn. I ;Jlll1ost feel like apolor,izing, l"'r. Speaker, for presentinl! a petition at th:ls late t:lme in. the afternoon. Hm•ever it is quite <'~n iw.port;~nt one. The prayer of the undersi1!fled, "The residents of the general ;>rea t·rlthin one quarter of a mile from the junction of Oxen Ponr1 !load anc1 T'resht·7ater Ro;>.c1 in the c:l.ty of St.

John's, humbly shoveth that '"'' oppose the p.:rantinp of a lounr.e J icense to Curtis Lill1it~d to operPte an establishment to sell spirits, beers pnd wines at 3lfl FreshPater 'load, ~t. .Tohn 's. Notice of intent to !lf'p1v fnr .'mch 2 l i c-.ense !lppe;,rec'l :!n the Yf'rch 2.7th j ,;,;ne of :l'he F.ven:ln~ Tele&ral". Tt is onr sincere hel ief th11t the result in traffic-. and parkinr pro

h) ems ,co!l1hinec'l t•ri th the fPnernl tncrease in evening and n1 r,httime act:l"ity in a resic'lentia] area, aJreac'!y overcrowec~ vdth senrice type hu!'iness establishments "'Otlld rec'luce the value of residentia) properties to an unjnsti fiah) e level. ''Tn vie<• of these circumstances we therefore pray that the license tdJl not he grantec'l a.nc:l your petitioners as are c'luty h<'tmrl ,,_,;1] ever pr~y." Nov, ~'r.

Spe~ker, this petition has heen si['nec:l hv practicflllv every householder t•ithin a radius of about nu<!lrter of a mile of this particulnr premises. 'fly checkinr the vnters list, even a cnrsory p.:limce, sho~•s that this M' nm;. ~:J". "'JWP: That is Stock"ooc'ls, is it? liT>. J. r.APTEP: Tt :! s the place knm.m as Stock1~ooc'ls now, yes. T"ere is 11 r;n•at fe;or that this ) oung:e license might be granted.

Thev are not afraid that ~ pre>Jiminary refusal by c:lty cormc:l .1 ll1enns the necessary ahsoJute refusal nnd therefore have asked Me as their 1!1emher tn cnlJ the attention of this legislature to tlds m~tter. NoP they are apainst the tr;offic hazards,as they point out,,nc'l partjcu)Rr1y what they are against i." having the rules chanp:ed 6088

,\pril 2~. l97f> Tape 2245 TB-2 ··p . .1 . rt.l'TI'": ·------- · In t he m1 r1c\l c n r the f'Al"'O. . :ost of rhl' people there h\1il t their bouse~ wlthin the li!st ren, fiftc(!n ve~ro; fully cxrec:tjnP to live in t he o::nhurh10. ThPv r1icl nor: elect to join the r.o1t!en l"ile. lt i~ not a onPstfc-n of the!"l .,eirJr ·'l<':tlnc;t thl' c:nnsUl'lption of spir1ts. Tt is rot " teetot;~Jers' petjtion ~v anv ~e~s. It is ner~ly th~t ~hey ••i11h thrir area to rPT"ain resiclent~~l Ancl 1.•ish to caD the :tttention of this 1crislnture ro t~at MAtter.

Therefo re T would her \e~ve to rut it on thP. t~tl•ll' of rh~s Ponse <~nd let it he r efe r Tecl to the relatl'!l. '"' ~l'fA~r": The hon . ••;nister of finAnce . ' 'l' , nornv: ''r. <:pe<~l<el", in sprakin~ in suppo rt of t he petition nnn on hl'hnl r of the tlepnrr,.ent to .. ·Hch 1t re]ptes,T can Assure tht' hon. Mf'm~er thi\t the n1tter hns hel"n clcalt ~.·ith . The city of St .

John's ''11nidpnl rouncil hnve nlrear1y se-rvecl nor1ce thar they ar e not rc·-,rnn~t1v~> to till' .,rrl ic;~tio" for n liq11or 1 icense. /l.s the~te intlicntic-n~t h11vt> hePn subtllitted to the department.o r co the l.iquor l lrc-nl'lnt' C.n~issinn, thev have responded t o the sentimcnt6 of citv 1 c:tr teU the hon . r:erhcr that his pet :I tioners have been ~~tisriecl to tht' ~~~t of my vnowled9e,that there is no intent of j I'S\11nt' such 11 1 icen!'e •""'' t-herP ••ill be no such J icense :1 ssued r'c:;opi rl." thP nuT"hPr of teetotaler!' :In thilt particul ;n: pArt of the rlrv or ~L.

Johr's . 'IR. t1F.ArY: You can l!.O home happy now, "John" ~ '11 . ll(l('I)Y: As fM the yolt'en 1'\ile th1.ny ,I thin It t hat is an absoluPlv del lph tfuJ exprl"-~s~.on, S:lr, ancl I intend looking out there .,r<>in clurin" the next fe<·' clays to seP. what great jnclustrial !.ll'pulses h:~vto cl1('t.~cecl thnt clescr:!pt:lon. 60"89

!' April 28, 1976 rn-3 t<I'T!CE!'\ nr ~ ·nTION: The hon . ~'in is tar of J ust ice . ''r . l\J>f.AKF.!': l..."': nirJ<''A.!>l: T :>iva notice that T will on tomorro~o.• ask leave to introduce the follo..,inr hills: A bill, "An Act To A men~ The Penistrat:!on Of r-.eeds Act . •· (1\ 111 ~o. t.O) • ~hill, wAn Act q esp~ctin~ Queen' s Counsel Anc Pre c e~ence At The liar.' · (Rill 'l<'. 41) ~m. Sl'P.AKftl.: Th<' hon . ''inister of F:ln:,nce.

"' J)()(lf)\': "r. ~f'PAkPr, T pive notice that t ~1J1J r-n to111orro~· ask 1P:wl' of the hon . 11oul'le to intr<"t4uce a hill, "An Act To Anthodze T!u• Prov ince To "nrlcrt:1h<', "rr:mi7C Ancl l':mar,e J.ottery Schemes. " (nill No. 42). The:c~e are variac! and wonde r ful sche~~~es there.

T also, Sir , r,ive notice that 1 will on tomorrow ask leave to 1110ve the House :I nto a Col'llllittee of the '·Thole to consic1er certain re1:ol ution,; re) acing to the Guarantee of the r epaynen t of bon~s or dt>henturcs is1:uer1 by and the r.ua rantee of the repayment loans made to certain local ::tuthoritje.s and rnunici.pal it ies .

Sir, I pive nc:>tice tht>t I Hill on tomorro1~ ask leave to move the llouse into a co,.,.,:luee of the !~ole to coru::lder certain r P.soJ utions in rel "tion tr thP rrnntinp, of suppl eMent<~rv ,;uppJ v to ll~r Najesty for the financi11l year en<'ine the 31st of ~·,.rch, 1n11\. ' ncl they m•rlec.terl ro rut ".n . there l>ut that is a .Jn!'tjc~ rer:1 rt~nt error,rot ~ne. 6090

April 28, 1976 Tape 2246 PK - 1 'IR. SPT' AKER: ------- The han. ~'inister of Transportation and Communications. ~!r. Speaker, I give not:i ce that I will on tomorrow ask leave of the House to introduce a hill, "An Act To /\mend The Department of Transportati;n and Communications Act." (Bill ~1 o. 1,3) The hon. Minister of Tourism. Hll. T. IIIC I<F.Y : Mr. Speaker, I eiv e notice that I lvill on tomorroH intr oduce a bi ll, "An Act To Adopt A Fla g For The Province of ~lewfoundland." (Pill No. 39) ORAL QUESTIONS: ''R. SP!'AKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. ----- -- ~~R. S. NEARY: lfr.

Speaker, I do not know who is speaking for the hon. Prem i er in the !louse this afternoon, but whoever is speakinr, for the hon. Premier would he care to enlighten the House on the Province's attitude towards the new Federal Energy Strategy ¥aper that ,.,as tabled in thE' llouse of Commons yesterday wherein it sup;p,ests that gas may rise, that hydro might get the short shift, anrl that the offshore Federal development looks bad, and that heating fup] may increase by twenty-five cents a gallon. Has the Province heen notified? Does the Province know anything about it?

Will the Province he fightinp; this, objecting to it? When the people read 1t this morning in the paper they nearly had a stroke. But will whoever s peaks for the Premier tell us what the Province is going to do about this. ~ 1R. SPEAKF.R: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. ~1R. R. HELLS: Hr.

Speaker, the Province has not yet been offically notified nor have we received anything from the Federal Government as yet, and a check was made before we came into the House this afternoon , and neither the office of the Premier nor the office of the Minister of Hines and Energy,who is at a meeting in Quebec today, has been notified. Hhat I can say is that the reports in the Press l·Jhich, of course, '~"'- have all read are cause for grave concern.

It \Jould appear, it is especiall;ll concerning to see the Federal statement on the matter t-f offs :wre oil and gas which would seem to indicate that in the mind of the Federal Government there is a lack of priority

April 28, 1976 Tape 2246 PK - 2 Mr. Wells: ----- on the offshore oil and gas off the Coast of Labrador particularly, \~here OU't information is that there is a strong possibility, and a very real possibility that in the next five years comrnerical quantities will be found. It would,of course, take approximately seven, eight to ten years to develop these, but we are extremely optimistic and our advice is that there is grounds for optimism on that score,anc1 we are ''isturbed and concerned if the ne\IS reports are correct that this seems to be down-played.

We are also extremely concerned that we who are great potential producer of energy, partjcularly in the form of electrical energy,that this does not seem to, if the press reports are correct, does not seem to have been given the priority that we. •..rould wish to see. He are concerned also that the Federal Government seems to have lost sight of the fact that sometimes national steps are necessary to ensure that energy is ~eveloped in the provinces, and it is disturbing to the Province ;md to the government, and I have no doubt, ~1r.

Speaker, to all Ncvrfoundlander ·s that 1ve seem to have a balkanization taking place in where one province can lay down strictures which controls and hampers the development of another province. And certainly I believe and we believe th2t this is happening in Newfoundland. Increases in the cost of gasoline and all oil products are inevitable, but we intend to f·ight and oppose them \vherever we can, recognizing nonetheless th<'lt over the years they are bound to go up, I think, nollo<1y could argue that that is not so. }ffi. NfARY: Not by twenty-five r.ents a gallon. lffi.

WELLS: - - ---- And not by twenty-five cents. And we will do everything in our pmver as a g:overnment to oppose this, and, of course, we have to say this bearirg in mind that the Federal Government is of course tlw fi.nal power and authority in Canada on these matters. But every 6092

fl.pril ?fl, ]()71i. Tane 2247 Rll - 1 r-:1'. l.,ffiLLS: repr~sentation which can he made,anrl every stand which can he taken by the Province of Newfoundland to keep the prices of these necessary goods cln;m and in line \ i th IJhat people can afford to pay granted their neerls, this step lvill be taken by this Province, Mr. Speaker. There are certain areas we recognize also where there is waste.

Obviously in the coming vears '"e recognize tl1at l!e are going to have, for example, I think as a reonle to he less <VastefuJ.,of energy. 'Rut there are certain areas, particularly in the area of home heating oil and this sort of thing,where in th<' climate in ~1hich "'e live 1ve must have heat, you know, we cannot say ,, • ., ;,re iust not l'njnB to use energy. 1 ~e can use it efficiently and 'le acce[lt thCJt. But there is a point bevond which we cannot go. We must 1 l ilV~"' <'nf'rp,v supplies if 1ve are to continue to live and produce in this cnnntry. There is one also very iMportant thing, 'lr.

Speaker, and that is devPlopment. There :is no ~Yay that lYe can even begin to help and foster t'w clevel opment of this Province industrially lvithout energy supplies. Fr. do not accept any position where we are going to be cut hack in the r i r~ht to r!evelop anrl the ability to develop by ref\ulations of the Fec1eral GovPrnment. The strongest j)Ossihle st;md will be taken, 11r. Sj)eaker, on t ;l <'St' issues and I hope with the support of everyone in the House and e>veryonp in the Province. llf! • • l'l'A n;p : The han. memher for LaPoile. l\1', ' :E!\JW: ''r. Speaker, a sm>p1 ementary questton.

It is all very well, f-ir, 1-1hat the minister said in reply to my <Juestion. I thank him for thl' stntPment of j)nlicy of the government.

Jlut would the minister not ap:ref' that it "ould be in the interest of the Atlantic Provinces at this moment, t l•e have-not provinces, if Newfoundland - if the other provinces ~dll not dn ]t - if Newfoundland would take the initiative to join with the other Atlantic Provinces in demanding of Ottawa that they immediately tee up " ferleral-provincial conference, tl-tat the Atlantic Provinces join forces tP f i.s>;ht ap;ainst this pol icy that apparently will be adopted by the r.overnment of Canada, not just talk about it, if necessary to put a 6093

;\pril 21l, J'l76. "ffl.:"lf!I.RY: TafJe 2247 1U1 - 2 resolution fonvard from this House to go and join with the other Atlantic Provinces, 1 et NewfouncHand take the initiative? Does the minister not thi1:1k that this 'muld be a ~rorthwhile proiect for the government to under­ take at this particular moment? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~!inister lvithout Portfolio. "R. WELLS: It may ~rell be. I do not discount the suggestion at all, .Mr.

Speaker. ~t may well be. h'hen the full text and intention of Ottmva is communicated to the Province, which I am sure will be in the next day or two, then obviously the government is going to have to consider every possible avenue,and also in the normal course of things the government will he learning the approach and the views of other provinces in Confederation and particularly the provinces most closely concerned - all provinces are closeJy concerned - but particularly the provinces whose problems are more similar to ours.

This may mean an approach or co-operation .rith all or any numher of provinces lvho may wish to co-operate ldth us in any representations being made to Ottawa. But certainly we do not discount the sur,gestion at all, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: '1R. RORERTS: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Hr. Speaker, a question which I believe should be addressed to the }Unister of l'inanc-e, hut possibly it should go to his colleague, the t!inister of Industrial Development, whichever minister is responsible for the r.overnment 's dealings 'vith Atlific Inns Limited. I believe the Crown corporation is Hotel Holdings Limi ted.

But anyway,I believe it is one of the two ministers lvho is responsible. My question arises out of a tender call which appears in today' s issue of the Evening Telegram lvhereby tenders are invited for certain expenditures in respect of new electrical services and electric heatinR i.n the Hotel Port aux Basques in Port aux llasques which of course is owned by Hotel Holdings Limited and operated for them, as I understand it, by the Atlific firm. l!y question, Sir, is this: Are the government liahle? Will they be involved in any expenditure ns a result of this tender call? If not, who will pay for it? 6094

.1\r>rll :>~ . 1"71\. T'lf'P ??lo7 1!!1 - " The hon. 'i.nister c>f fina nce . " I' . H. nnnnv: "r . Soc11l·er , nll T ~an SO'IY is t!ult since the Oeparttne n t nf J>in;mcC' is resfl nn::.ih lc for ~! . T . I' . C . ,throu~h whom t1tese PE'OPlt> tiP.Al , 1\:tVe l'l'lt hi.' en consulter! n r i nvo l veri in this ten der call, I al'l onl y asSUf"C t '•a t c:1c l\rl1fic peorle <>r the ll<>liday tnns pcoole chensclve s wi.ll 'lccept r••::.nn:'l::>i.'-:1 1 i ty fnr it .

T "no•..t nnthin~ of it other than what is in the !':>ncr . 11<> ce rtai nly h11ve nor h<>,..n conRu] tc<'l or asl<ecl for any f'llrticipation nr anyt'l lnf. . ~ · 1• . C:PfAKF.r: : A llltnnl ementarv . ThP hon . J,eader of the nnposi.t:lon . A surrlC'tnentary . "r. Sn<'A"'ker. i. f I could . l thank the mfni fi ter. rou ld thP l"inist er undertake to have inquiries made ~<'i t h ~ vinN t n ftndinr I'Ut h<.'c;~use w~:ilc tl,l' con trRct bet•>Pcn Hot el l'nlclin~s 'ln<! t' •" /ltlili.c firm t o ~"Y \·noP]et!2e "Ol.S neve r bee n ratifie (l t>uhlicl•r, it hn~ h ~'<'n m11dr rul•l j c . As 1 rec;~ ll it , 60.95

.~prH 28, 1976 '1'11.pe 2248 If.-1 "R • T>Ol>f.l'.TS : vou l<no"'• there is 11 pos!dhil1ty that the p.overnment nl.ght be ] iable for sol!'e expenc1itnre even though they may not have been consulted in advance. So wou1 d the minister undertake to have it looked into by the appropriate officials with a view to letting the House have the information tomorrow or Friday? ~"R. SPEAKETl: The hon. l'injster of Finance. }~. noonY: I am grateful to the hon. Leader of the Opposition for hringin~ it to my attention. 1t is somethi.ng that I w:lll certainly Jook into.

It is something that I am very intere~ted in and I certainly will find out ahout jt, VP, POBF.TlTS: ~. SPEAI<FP: ~1 r, HOnDER: Th;mk you. The hon. member for Port au Port. A C1Uestion fnr the hon. ~iinister of "'ransportati.on and rommunjcations. noes the Departmeftt of Transportation avd Communi.cations have any p]ans to rep]ace the R'ippens Jlridge this Summer? The hon. "inister of Transportation and Communications. }'1'. }<OPGAN: J'r.

Speaker, as a result of the question asked by the same hem. gentlel'lan yesterday in the House, I have instructed the enp,ineer5ng staff of my department to take a look at that bridge tnday or tom~rrow, as soon as possible,and to give me a report with regards to the safety aspect of the hridge,and upon receiving that report a decision wiH be tnilc1e with regarcls to the possible replacement of same. _I"'. rmnnEP: J. supp.le!!'ent11ry, Mr. Speaker. noes the minister remember that I St'oke to him about that bridge some t,'O •veeks ap.:o and that it is the only hridpe leading from my diRtrict?

Heavy trucks are going over it and for two weeks now nothi.ng has been done. And all throu)!:hout this time I felt that there hac been a survey rlone and that 0fficials bad gone out there. "~ SPF.f.¥F:r: The hon. 1-'fin:fster of Transportation and Communicati.ons. Mn. MnRCAN: }!r. Speaker, the hon. gentleman did !T>ention it to me in paf'sinp; approximate] y a week a!!,o, a '!<•eek and a half aF:o, and at that 6096

flrrn 28, l'l76 Tare 224 8 IR-2 l ' T>. li()P~fiN: t j1'1e 1 referreil H to the Hel<l '"orkers of my ilepartment, not the enrjneerinp staff, to take a lN'k nt the bridge ann the indication there vns that the briclpe is passable 1\nd now the question has to be determined by the en~jneerin? staff. The people workinp in the fie]d ;~re not engineering staff, I am talking about enp.ineering staff from the lteac1 office here in St • .John's to take a look at the brirl.~e and to determine 1.f jt 1.s safe or not. Once that report is in a deds:lon w1.JJ,. be Il'ac1e. 1 '1'.

SPT'AKE": Before recognizi.I'Ig the bon. ynemher for Le1d.sporte it hRs been nra1·m to TI'Y attention that Fr. nermot Roche, the chail'l'lan of the <'Oll"Tl11nity council of Branch, St. l'ary's Bay,and a number of the g"ntleMen who are members of the counciJ are in the !louse of Assembly ancl J know that all hon. MeMbers "'ouJcl like to ,,,e]come them. Hear, hear! J.~. SPEAKEr>: 'T'he hon. member for Le~Visporte. ''1'. ~\fl-1TTF: } 1r. Spe1'1<er, I have a rmestion for the hon.

Yin:l .ster of Transportlltjon and rotTII'Iunications, Sores \veeks R.go the minister i.nilicated to thP House tl,at the four Atlantic provinces ~Jere going to fltta'"" ,..jth a proposal with reparc~ to upgra.clin~ the Trans-C'anaclas or ii!'proving the Tr:mF-r:anadas in all four Atlantic provinces. Nm·· the lllinister seell'S to have chanp:er:1 h:l.s vleH w:l.th respect to this joint ilpproach ancl he is s;~yinp that Newfoundland roads are worst than other Athmd.c prov:fncPR anr' ~Ve need action here. J ~mnrl.er if he could explain this seeming inccmsistency in his approach to nttl'va?

"~ . ~pen~:er,it ,,•as "' Ph:ile ago,in fact ~'arch l.O,~·men rhe "inisters responsihle for hiphwavs in the At]ant:fc repion mnr1e n ioint sllhmi!lsion to fltta~ul. ancl to the federal min:fster, the hon. Otto T.Pn?",and it Pas for a reconstruction and upgrading and in Ro!'le c:nf'es t-.•inn:fnp; or paraJleJ i.n~ of the existing primary road systc>M in the AtJ;mtic: rPg:f .on. In onr case the pritl'al:'v road systelT' ·i"' the TrR.ns-r.anf!cla :H f'hHav. Ahnut approximately ten d:'!ys ap,o I 6097

:\l'lrll 28, lfl71\ Tape 2241'! Tll-3 ,.,.. ~!ORGAN: r~ceive~ a ~esp~nse, in f~ct All the m:!nisters responsible , :!n this C'ISC Hi r'n·•ay~< "'in i ~<ters, receive<' a response froll' the i'e.!le.r P 1 min :1 ~<ter 1-·hich was :!n!le<.'t> in ,.-v vie•·• not a pe>sit:!ve re11ponse and ne>t a nerattve resp~n se . It waR l'lerely an ackne>~~lefel"ent of o11r subnds~<ion l"ade to h:lm. "pnn rccl"ivinr that,:mcl upon ~iscuss:lng with Ill)' coi.Ulterparts 5n the At l l\nt 'lc rPp.ion that I f~:>J t - AMI J fee) the support c-f rw ('ol) eag ues :!R w:!th me as ~~cll.in fact if not all the Province - t ha t ~'P.

"• founcllan c! is a ~<eparate case froll' the rest e>£ the Atlantic rer i on. f'ur C<!se is 111uch ~<tronper to have something Clone ilTlll\ecl:!.ntely. l'pe>n recop-ni?.in~ tl•at T net 1-·ith the e>ff:!ctals of the fet!eral Ministry of Transport lal"t Priday :md suhl"ittP<I to thPM nur case.an~ when J say 'our case: Ne~·fountllan<'l ' s ca~<e, alone . "'he fact that for examrle in 1970 there lo.'ere 2,000 tTI\CtOT · tTAilers lef t the ht>at.R in ?art aux nasnue!l an<" went to the hi~hways, l07fl.

T.n t 0 75 - these are firttres suppliecl by f'N -that fi.p,ure was ine rens~:>d to 21,snn trAct~r-tra:!lers, heavy vehicle ~raffic.

The p rojection~; of "'1'1 hv 197~ is t hat there will be 57 ,flOO tnctor­ trailers lenv:lnY, on An annu~l ha~is from the boats in Port a ux 1\a~QI!CS ClntO t he hi fh'ays. ~lo1.· tyinft this also :lnte> the f<.ct that just recen t ly we snw An inc rease o~ the truc~in ~ rates from North ~yrney to ArpentjA.:tnd no jncrP~se in the trucking rates cow:ln~ into Port aux Basques ~·hich reans no"' all the trucking, practkall y 100 per cent of all the truckjn g •>ill now come to Port aux ~as11ues, ~>•h:lch ll'ean5 further he~vy vehicle ~lume on our hivhway . 6098

Ap ril 28 , 197 6 Tape 2249 PK - 1 NR. HORr.AN: 1\nd any travelling motorists in this Province who travels our Trans-Canada from St. John's to Port aux Basques must surely recognize the desperate need for some reconstruction of our Trans-Canada Highway. So based on these factors we feel as a Province that Newfoundland's case is indeed a case over and above the rest of the Atlantic Region. So on that basis vie are going, if you "ish, separately, but still •~ith the other Atlantic Region.

Now as a result of my meetings last Friday in Ottawa,the Federal Ministry of Transport officials who are in the Surfar.~ Dj vision, with the Hif',h~Yay Division of the Ministry of Transport in Ottawa, top level officials, they will be coming to Newfoundland arriving approximatel y ,I think it is the first or second week in ~'ay, the second week in May, they are coming down to travel the Trans-Canada llighvay with the engineers from my department from St. John's to Port aux Basques.

Well my engineers can shm~ them the bad points,and they can also recognize them themselves, so they caiJ p,o hack and make a report to their minister and hopefully r e co~enrl~ng that something can be done immediately. And tyinb this in to the fact also that we have seen two reductions recently since the 1st. of January, t <YO reductior~s by CN's rail freight movement, v1hich means more freig[)t onto the roads, tying all of this in that, T think the officials also recognize in Ottawa now that something has to be' rlone _.

So I am hoping that as a result of the officials coming from Ottaw a taking a firsthand look, making a report back to their minister th.~ t we can p.;e t something rlone here in Newfoundland immediately, and t~hen 1 say immerlia tely, hopefully commencing this year. ~m . WIIITE: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. :··1n . SPEAKER: ------ ·--- A supplementary. The hon. member from Lewis-port. ~1 R .

WHITE: Could the r!inister of Transportation and Co~unications indicat e ••hether or not he is going to wait until this Federal study is completed before trying to do something about the deplorable conditions of the highway as it exists now,or is he going to get his 6099

P.pril 28, 1976 Tape 2249 PK- 2 MR. HHITF.: ----- officials to fix up son1e of the bacl spots along the road? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~finister of Transportation and Communications. HR. HORGAN: ----- ~lr. Speaker, I will gladly answer that question. The fact is right now in this Province we have 2,700 miles of rough, gravel road winding,dangerous, hazardous gravel roads used by school buses and other means of transportation in the rural parts of the Province, either secondary roads or roads connecting in some cases smaller type communities like out in Branch and St.

Hary's Bay, a typical example, I mention them to my colleague; 2,700 miles on the Islandpart of the Province, also 600 miles of what we call a tote road across Labrador. Now the estimate of cost of the engineering staff of my department to do these roads on the Island part of the Province right now, to do them, reconstruct them to a level for paving, and then pave them, 2,700 miles of road will he $700 million. Now looking at Labrador and the

section down there,adding it on to that cost, and looking at the fact that there is need for many areas of the Province new construction, of a road going into a place v1here there is no road now, but to reconstruct existing roads and pave them,and to build new roads is going to cost close to $1 billion. Now if we have to supply that need and demand,how can we possibly afford as a Province to carry out the reconstruction and upgrading of the Trans-Canada Highway that is now needed? So the best '"e can do, ~1r.

Speaker, to answer the hon. gentleman's question, the best we can do is carry out some preventive maintenance, if you wish, maintenance whereby we can do some surfacing of areas which is really at a level right now that we can retain. Rut most rarts of our Trans-Canada, for example, I can refer to a

section from the Western boundaries of the National Park into Gander, there is no point ~- n resurfacing it, It has to be totally reconstructed. Now in that kind of outlay of funds this Province cannot afford to do it. The most that we can afford to do is maintenance,of some just basic resurfacing work. And we will ~ttempt with our maintenance crews this year to do some patching and repairing in areas where we 6100

April 28, 1976 Tape 2249 PK - 3 MR. MORGAN: can do it in a feasible t'lay, IIR. \lliiTE; f1R. SPEAKER: '!R. \<Jl!ITE; A supplementary, Hr. Spe<tker. I l'lill allo•1 the hon. gentleman one further supplementary. A supplementary to the minister. 6101

/'.prU 28, 1976 Tape 2250 IB-1 Hn. WHITE: HouJd the rn:lnister incJjcate t.rhether or not he has follo.,,ed up on his suggestion in the Pause a few Feeks ago, that he may impose a limit, prohahly a half-load or something like that on the Trans-canada Jli gh"'ay. Has he rene any further with that thought? "1<. SPF.AKl',P: The hen. ~'inister of Transportation and Coll1111unications. ~"R. HORGAN: ~'r.

Spea.ker, T menti.oned earH.er that that W<!S a consideration ;mel T <!lso innic<!ted to the officials tn 0ttat ,'a that unless some action Pas taken to improve the situation wl)ereby some improvement was made to our Trans-canada Highway ,and if the volume of heavy vehicle traffic further :l.ncreased ,and it looks right nmv a.s if 51: wHl further increase, there is a possibility that some action w:IJ J be talren w:l.th regards to restrictions which means restrictions on the eross maximum weights and the axle t•Teights. Now T <ll'l sure every hon.

F;entleman of this House realizes ~mat the consequences of that means,if ~~e do that. It means that it is going to be a cost to the consumer, a cost to the shipper first, and a cost to the consumer he cause - if the hon. gentleman for LaPo:!le (}'r. Neary) vlill listen - if 1t is forced back on the rails, if people have to pay the rail rates. And the rail rates right now are higher than those hy the truckers. The service provided by the rNr> is aJ.so not near 1\S good as that being provided by the trucker. Th;,t is the main reason for the fre:l ght volume going on to tire, go:lnp, onto the roads.

So if Fe restrict the Trans-ranac'ta Highway with refards tr­ rnaxiMum gross wej phts 1 1.t is f'O:Ing to be a severe blow to the Province. llut aeajn I emphasize that if nothing is forthcoming from Ottawa, if they rln not recop;nize our sjtnation,wh:l .ch is a desperate one - and 1 am 11.t this po:lnt now ~ore confident and more hopeful that something will be done - but if the response after further negotiations is still hepatjve, if it is negative after many negotiations and talks occur, that t.'e ~rill have to Jook at the possjbility of placing restrictlons.

That is •mat I said a fe~' 'Weeks ago and I still retain 6102

ArriJ 2R , 1976 Pnp.e 2250 '[~-2 !'1' . "f'I'GA)! : th.'lt I'Ol'ition. !:PEt\J{f.!'l: I recorn:lze the hen. member for Tr:lni.t y-1\ay de Verde ,,ntl thPn the hon. tr.etnher for L~>1'o1) e. "r . Spe;okt>r, 1 wonder if the llouse LeAder could thro" some lipht on the c!ec.ision th11t h:u• been macle by Newfoundland and t .. "lhradnr ll y~ro to aw•r<! :> contr<~ct to a certain contractor fot: the hu fltl:lnr of the transmission line fron ('hurchill Falls to r<nppy ~'n ll cv.

T unclerE;tanc' that the r~dsion hi'IS been macle, ~ut it has not been announce<' yet because some c!et11il!'1 have to be clarifiecl P]th rC'~pect to 1-:lr:ln e prefE'rences for '\e..-foundlande rs. ;JO'-· in vie~· of tl 1e f:~ct thnt .1 ()nehec firn has tenclered the lowest bid,are Ne l'n c-ountPr inp prohleru; with respect to hnv1.ng h:ldn!t preference for il'cvfounriJander!l on tl'te building of that transmission Hne and is :It In any way reJatec' to onroin~ ner.otiations with the ':lnes ancl F.ne r~y ' '1nister of C)uebec ~·ith rP spect to the recnU of power frol!' Quebec? •1". ~PF.AKEP: The hon . ·u;ni ste r "-'ithout Portfolio.

The position of the p,overnn:ent is, ''r. Speaker, thRt In even• •·;av ~o~herever pos:::ib:te it ill part of any contractual arran$te11'Cnt that 'H' make thAt wherever possible Newfoundland labour from Helo!foundland 11nd LPhra~c-r, vo11 kno..,, J nhour frotr this Province, be usee!.

Thet:e are tlii'CURRio ns r,o1np c-n on tl d E; ?nd it ,,,ould he preMature to say anyth ing ;>hout ther:o l'lt th i s tir>e nnt11 t h ~>y are sorted out . 1\ut they are not pn rt of Rny k:lnd of plityoff on ;my other tlllltter or nep,ocintion tak:ln~ r l?ce ~fth the Pr ovince of Quehec, not Rt all . 8ut it ill povern~nt'R intention to secure best possihJe tP.rros nnd every possible safeguarc' ·•he rever possihle , "r. Spe:tkc r, t hat Ne,nountll.Anders nnd Lab raclorjans n(>cr. .'\ Stlppl ementary , "r. Speake r. SPF.I'J:Fi' :. T recogn i?.e t'le hon. !"ember for !rinHy-Ray de Verde fnr 11 ~unp lementary. "l' .

T'nt,rr: T thank ti- e r>in'l.ster f()r ans~·erinr the seco nd part of the nne,t :l nn ,hut the fj r ~>t part hasi cally Pas:t~re we encount e ri nr. any r eal 6103

April 28, 1976 Tape 2250 I'B-3 ''1'. rnm-:: serious prot>lems ,,,Hh respect to hir:fnr, practice preferences for NePfoundJ anders? Probably the ~'in:!ster of Finance could answer this. The hon. ~'inister of Finance. ~., nonnY: T r'a' .' be ab1 .e to help because T ,,,as in on a discussion on the pi!rticu1ar contract that the hen. member refers tn.

The letter which vlent out from the m:ln:lster responsible, the ~~i.nister for ~'i.nes and Ener~y,of •·•h:!ch I receiver:! a copy,was most exp11cit as rep:arc!s to instructions to the F.yt1ro penple, that the most ill'portant overall ancl overricl:lnr, con11:l.deration vras that ldrinp, practices be geared to the necessity of h:!rin!! Nevrfoundlancl and Labrador res:!c!ent!', that th:! s 1-•as to he il priiT'ary cons1deration and it has to he one that has to be con!<:!c:leren Ht all times. The lm•est tender is item one, but that can be conl'ideren only in n context of the h:lr:!ng of '<eFfoundlanders.

It has to be clemonstrater:'l conclusively th11t there are no Ne,.rfoundl ancl peopJ e avai Jab] e, Newfount!land and Labrador people available before any alternatives are consi~ered T.•hether it is from ()uebec or ~'assachusetts or wherever. Th:ls has been laid drvm, stipul at eel, printer! ~tnd poured out. I must sav there h~s heen tr~mendouF emphasis laid on it. As the hon. House Learler hHs sRid it has not been i.n any way connectec:l with anv niscussions that !'Ore ~oing on novr. It has been simply in the context of the construction site.

That has been someth1np that we ran into considerable trouble vith in the past, the construction trades industry, the labour people have laid it on us pretty heRvily and we have been very, very careful abont it. I hope that 6104

t\p rtl 28, 1976 Tape No. 2251 NM - 1 MR. nOODY: that if anv memher of the House hears something ---· .. ··- to the contrary that they will inform us about it so that we can correct it hefore it ~ets out of hand because I think it has happened in the past. ' !P.. SPI\AKER : The han. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde,a supple~entary. '!!':.:... _R!_l]'l!:_:_ I thank the ministers for their answers, Sir. '1_R.!.. .JiEARY_·. That was all answered a week ago. The hon. member should come in the House. MR. RO\-TE: I have not missed a day of the House , Mr, Speaker. Anyway I will not be distracted.

This obviously applies to the prime contractor. Hould the same rules apply to all sub-contractors~ MR. DOODY: No. No. HR. ROHE: Thank you. ~., __ SPE_~_!:R: The han. member for T..aPoile. ~-·--l'£~RY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Industrial nevelopment if he would bring the House up to date on the repairs to the damage at the Marystown Shipyards and also inform the House if the Marys town Shipyard 1~as successful in getting the Guiana ships contract~ f:!R.:._ S_!'~~~-~. '- The hon.

Minister of Industrial Development. ~!:R-· __ _ L!~~R_!_r.M'i.' The shinyards will he back in operation in a matter of a week. I guess I can give the House the details of the cost for the actual damage that was caused and the cost of putting it back into shape at a later date. On Guiana I cannot ~ ive any answer at this moment. He have not had a firm response.

He have had trouble dealing with the people in the last nu111ber of ~1eeks. l.Ye have encouraged them in making up their minds that they come to the Province and visit the Shipyard, look at the facilities , be aware of the extent of our capabilities, and I anticipate that that will. 6105

April 28 , 1976 Tape No. 2251 Ntl - 2 MR. LUNDRIGAN: I would not want to go into any great amount of detail in talking about another jurisdiction,but we have been a little discouraged that they ·have not been more prompt in making their own decision.

Certainly it is not because of the lack of support received from us or the lack of information that we have communicated to them. 1f1e put together an excellent package involving the Export Development Corporation, involving the Fisheries Colle~e. involving the Shipyard itself,naturally, and we are quite proud of the presentation on the contract bids or the bids that we have'made.

I do not want to go overboard on liBking any comments on it because when we started to look at the prospects for the Guiana contract or the Guiana shrimp boats,we were almost aware of the fact .that the chances of getting the contract would be pretty close to zero. At this stage we can still only sav that it is only a possibility we might get the contract,and in making any comments public you always give the impression to the people in the area that there are prospects beyond what in fact are realistic.

So until lJe get a firm answer from them I do not want to even give any impression that there is a clear prospect to achieve any kind of a formal relationship with them. But to sum up the - MR. - -~~_!.L1mOD: Have those people been invited to come at the expense of the Shipyard, or are they expected to pay their own way and come to Marystown? HR,_ LUNDRIGAN: I think we have made some kind of an offer to them to help them themselves. ~--~~LHOOD: Make them an offer they cannot refuse. ~- _L_~DRI_GAN: ~vell,we have done that pretty well, Your Honour.

We have helped or indicated a level of assistance to help them come because they are a - MR. SMALLWOOD: Treat them like kings when they get there. :t_~ •. L~R.!_G~...:.. ~vell certainly. That is typical of Newfoundland. 6106

April 28, 197(i T.Ape No. 2251 NM - 1 ' 'fR . _ ~UN~~.Q_~: Anvthinr. but that, of course, ~1ould be not like ~lel~foundland and I think we have taken more interest and devoted more of our energies to the Harystown Shipyard as a government than would he normally expected. I am disappointed that we have not been able to fetch and lay on the table more formal contracts and I hope that that will change. But to sum up again, there is not a formal decision made by the government. They are a new government,! might add.

The government is only as an independent government less than a decade, And I guess they have p,ot their ~m problems with decisions and allocation of funds and they have the growth problems as well,and we have p,ot to be a bit patient. They have got to maKe their own decision. 1-Te are not as competitive in some ways as we should be. ~ot as l~e should be- I might add that because of the qualitv of the product that we can deliver we are not in the same ballpark as two or three other people who are interested in the contract.

Rut nevertheless we have done everything even to the point of encouraging them to come here, look for themselves and realize that by associating 1~i th the Province in a package arrangement which involves training as well that they are going to be in a much better position in the long in developin r. the long term fisheries policies. SOME HON. MEHRERS: Hear! Hear'. ~IR_. ~P_F:_A~~: The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question, would the minister tell us then apart from the Guiana ship contract rossibility,what contracts do the Marystown Shipyards have at the present time?

Are any ships vresently being constructed or will he constructed once the repairs to the damage are complete? Are there any contracts at all now for construction of new ships for the Marystown Shipyards~ Is there anything on the table at all? 6107

April 28, 1976 Tape 2252 PK - 1 tlR. LUNDRIGAN: Beyond what has been there the last three months or, yes, I would say relatively speaking three months,except for the repairs to the tug which we gained a number of weeks ago from Hanitoba, I believe it was, and the normal repairs, and other types of repair work that we are attracting under normal circumstances, the answer is , no.there are no new ships. We have not made any ne1v contracts.

The last contract of a formal nature of a new ship was the one that I announced 2bout three months ago, two and a half months ar,o ,which really is our own trm~ler that we are indirectly building ourselves. !1R. NEARY: ----- Euildin~ it on speculation. HR. LUNDRIGAN: Well speculation, the bon. member might suggest , but we are quite confident that there is certainly no risk in the spectulation. But the answer is that there is no new contract that we plan to table today. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPF..AKER: ------- This being Private Members' TJay we proceed to Order 7, and the adjourned debate thereon.

The hon. member for Terra Nova. '1R. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, in speaking to the motion put forward by the hon. ·Leader of the Opposition, Hr. Speaker, this addresses itself to the future of this Province. It seeks to offer the government a method and a procedure of ascertaining what are the prospects for economic growth and development in this Province. The resolution asks that a select committee be established to collect, gather, organize, and collate rP levant information so that appropriate criteria and strategies may be adopted which will give this Province a sound economic base. ~lr.

SpPaker, this is a large resolution. It is a noble and a magnanimous re so lution,so much so, Nr. Speaker, that I feel almost inadequate to the tasks at hanc:' namely,to intelligently and rationally to debate the full impact and consequences of this motion. Yet, 6108

Tape 2252 PK - 2 1!:.·...1!.' s h : " r. SpcAI:er, thP intE>nt of the motion is so vecy simple , so very prn ct"lcal :llld so vPr y vital. The mo tion demonstr ates concern, rrofound concern, nlmoRt anxiet)' about the future of t his Prov ince , 111('1."foundl:md and Labr atlor. This motion is asking,where t~e are going? How fnr \o1C can (1;0? /Inc! how <lo we propose to get there?

In other ..,ords, vh:tt are the econooic prospects for t his Province? lt is nl'lkinr. for a re- examination of our economic develop­ ment to date, nnd from there to set up goals and object ive s ccmrat ihle t,;ith tht- skills nnd lifestyles of our people . ~lr . Speaker , this motion is not merely a call or a plea to ~o vernment for reaffirnation of faith in the fu ture plans and for a disclos ure of i t s (lcvclopm('n t plam; , and how the r,.overn~tent plans to achieve thee: . This resolution is a call for all of us in chis !louse to reaffirm faith i n ourselves as a peop le.

This motion is a call fo r .111 of us to rcaffirn our faith in this Province . As necessary as thIs is, Nr. Speaker , :J.s nece ssar y as it is co crea te a feelin g of o~ timi:::m, hope and asp i ration in our people this is necessary and llrsi rable . f.ut this motion goes heyond the romanticizing and t he pi!Uosoohi?.in~ anci t heorizing . This motion is asking t hat ""'e take .l hard practic:tl look at our economic potential to determine what ! L can ~ rocluce in the way of cmployntent to the application 6109

April 21l, l97fi. HR. LITSH: Tape 2253 RH - 1 of industrial expertise and new technology that is presently availahle to us • Through a select committee, Hr.

Speaker, to gather, collect and organize all pertinent and relevant information respecting the growth and development of this Province, through discussion and dialogue with the people of this Province, to talk with our people, to discuss with our people, to gather new ideas for the proper and efficient development of this Province, to develop goals, aims and objectives and consequently establish criteria and strategies for the sound development of this Province - a noble re~olution, ~r. Speaker, to say the least. But what will be its fate?

This, I thought,lvas a resolution that woulcl take us all beyond partisan politics. This could he the one resolution that could bring this House together in a unified fight for the growth and development of our Province. How can one disagree with the principle of this motion? How can any patriotic Nel~foundlanders, Labradorian not vote for this resolution? If you disagree with the committee idea,then one would have thought that the government members and other Opposition members would have advanced some other method.

But all I have heard to date basically is an outright condemnation of the motion by government members. The hon. member from LaPoileO~r. Neary) agreed, I think, lvith the principle but disagreed with the method. lle instead proposed a productivity council to encourage and promote ],etter productivity among our people. But he does seem to ligree with the principle. The hon. member from Twillingate(Mr. Smallwood) has indicated that he will support the motion. He agrees with the motion in principle. But all He get from the government members is an outright condemnation of the principle even of this motion. The hon.

Minister of Mines and F.nergy in his now famous speech of gloom and doom did not do very much to leave us with any hope, with any asptrations, ~Vith any faith in our Province. The bon. member from Kilbride(Hr. Hells), I think it was, when he was speaking to this resolution, and I am not certain of what I am saying - AN 110N. NEHBF.R: He did not speak to this resolution. l".R. LUSH: He dicl not speak to this resolU.tion? Well, I want to make a 6110

Ap-cil ?.1\, 107f>. ~IR . LOS I' : Tape 2?.53 Rll - 2 point an}"•ays . llut 1 will hacl·traclc fr.om that one.. there is one hon. member here ~-1ho said that there. was no need fo.r such a coll11Tlittee hecause al 1 ~f.ILA . s knew the neerls of their district . No~' that is a very nar.rot~ loov. (It this resolution here, to sugge st that all H. Jt .A.s knOI·I the needs of the "'istri.ct. r am not at All intimating or s u~gestin~ tha ·t all ~1 - R .A.s tlo not know thP. neecls of the l'list r ict . Jlut this is much bir,per than that .

F.ven if it were not so, that there is no way of brtngin~ tor.ether the infomation that H .R .A.s have of their districts . The re is no tilay . There is no channel of communication . There is no forum whereby we can bring together and colate All of thes ·e ideas that w-e might h ave abou.t our districts . lie can r,et here and t:'!lk about them, but there is still no channel, no svstcmatic wav of hrjnning these ideas together. So t his motion goes rnuc~ larger than just talldng about the li.ttle !,its of infomation that we indeed ourselves mip.ht i(not·i about our districts .

ThE' point I wanterl to make, and I hope I can be for ~i ven for t his, hut 1 want to hrinl!. in thi.s poi n t; t!le member from Kilbride(! 1r . \~ells) I~<IS f'rnh;thly talkinr, ahout ariothet noint l>ut 1 do want tp Ulle it . J think at on<' point - a·n('l T ;ust forget "hat it was that he Na:s talking to - hut " he h'ill recalJ, 1 thin1 ; , usi:np. th<' analo~ of the sinl•in~ man or the sunken mJtn In tallt;in<t Rl,out th<' kind of treatment thnt wP.. r.et from Otta~a, jf y()u Hill . He was poi ntin~ out chat 6111

~nril 28, 1976 IB-1 ' fP . LPSH: - --- we were not f!ettinr - l·!hat ~hal] I say? - the proper methocl of funding from nttawa. T think T·7h<lt he s<Jid in esF;ence was that the fec'leral roverml'ent 's strateries to eliminate rerional disparities and inequities have faHecl to enahle th:1.s Province to attain a Jevel of services <md proi111ction that wonlc1 result in producing nev1 income an<' continuec e!!'fllovment. 1 thi.n~· that is the irlea that I f.ot in another situation. ~117. HRLLS: If the hon. member '··ilJ pemit me. 1'1'.

T.T1SH: Sure. '"T'. ~JmLS: "'he fec'lera] government hail improvefl services, there is no que!'ti.on about that, vastJy in Newfounclland or provided the money to c'lo sn. ~' o questi.on. But what T vas takinr. exception to was there does not see'" to have been tn me over the years the right kind of effort made to transpJ ant, if von wi 11, some of r.anada' s productive industry into this ne"' Province of N e~·foundland Hhich 1ve <>ere in 1949. This is where I felt 'me' used the analory of the m<>n dm-m in the water, that they would holrl hi s heRcl above but never realJy help him out.

I felt th:ls is somethinr, that possibJy oup.:ht to he impresserl upon. )m .. ~TSH_: __ I sort of r,ot the impression too,riphtly or wrongly, that you '"ere illt>o mak inr inference!> about tbe transfer of P"vments that Pe were r etting prohahJy not <'irecte<',or the n"EF. fundt> <lnd the T.TP pro ;ec:t s M>d alJ of these, n