Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 28A (30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-28a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

TIME: 2:30 p.m. THE LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y of MANITOBA Monday, March 28, 19 77 OPEN ING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Honourable Peter Fox (Kild onan) : Before we proceed I should like to di rect the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 29 Army Cadets from Yellowknife, Northwest Territories. These cadets are underthe direction of Mr. Osted . They are our guests forth is afternoon. On behalf of all the honourable members we welcome you here this afternoon.

Presenting Petitions; Read ing and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Min isterial Statements and Tabling of Reports; Notices of Motion. INTROD UCTION OF BILLS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Munici pal Affairs. HONOUR ABLE BILLIE URUSKI (St. George) introduced Bill (No. 42)

An Act to amend The Civil Service Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Labour. HONOUR ABLE RUSSELL PAULLEY (Transcona) introduced Bill (No. 34)

An Act to amend The Labour Relations Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Health. HONOUR ABLE LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (St. Bon iface) introduced Bill (No. 44)

An Act to amend The Marriage Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Labour. MR. PAULLEY introduced Bill (No. 45)

An Act to amend The Vacations with Pay Act; and Bill (No. 47)

An Act to amend The Department of Labour Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BANMAN introduced Bill (No. 48)

An Act to amend The Liquor Control Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK introduced Bill (No. 46)

An Act to amend

An Act to incorpo rate "The Communi ty of the Sisters of the Holy Names of Jesus and Mary". OR AL QU ESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Oppositi on. MR. STERLING R. LYON (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, a question to the Fi rst Min ister.

In view of the fact that the unemployment fig ures for the Cit y of Winnip eg now stand at 17,000, representing some 7.4 percent of the work force, could the Fi rst Min ister advise what special programs, if any, his Min istries are considering with respect to youth employment programs for the summer, having regard to the fact that the universities and the other post-secondary schools will be emptying out fairly shortly, what special programs, if any, there are to assist these you ng people seeking employment in the workplace agains t this background of high unemployment fig ures at the present time? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Fi rst Minister. HONOUR ABLE EDWARD SCHR EYER, Premier (Rossmere): Well, Mr. Speaker, in addition to a program relating spec ifical ly to the inner city and in addition to the Public Norks construction program on which design work has been done, which can be advanced by the amount of several mil lions of dol lars. In addi tion to that there is the Student Employment Program which can be sized to the order of 2,000-3,000 specially created jobs. Those are about the three mainstays of special employment creation.

In addition to that there may be a measure -a nd I can only put it in a tentative way, in addition to what I've said - in addition to that in the budget address forthcoming on or about the beginn ing of the third week of April. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Op positi on. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Fi rst Min ister could advise if any of his ministers have taken special steps or have had special studies ini tiated with the private sector to determine what input the private sector as opposed to the gove rnment, could have in this employment program? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, there is precisely the prospecto,f am easure , that would be in the budget itself and, accordi ngly, it has to await the budget add ress. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the budget is not slated until the 18th of April, could the Fi rst Min ister not gi ve us some indic ation as to what steps, if any, could be taken for the young people who will be emptying onto that market prior to the 18 th of April? MR.

SCHREYER: Well what is certainly ready to be proceeded with, notwithstanding the budget, is the Summer Employment Program for students which, just off hand, I would estimate as being in the order of 3,000 to 4,000 job creation positions. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. 12 71

Monday, March 28, 19 77 MR. HARRY J. ENNS: Thank you' Mr. Speaker. I direct a question to the Honourable the Mini ster of Agriculture. I note with some satisfaction the Bill No. 23 bei ng introduced by the Honourable Minis ter of Health and Social Developme nt, the changes to the Marriage Act as being one of those design ated . . . MR. SPEAKER: Question , please. MR. ENNS: ... as an important piece of legis lation we will be dealing with. I ask the Min ister once again, can we expect this week introduction of the bill havi ng to do with land ownership? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter for Agriculture.

HO NOUR ABLE SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, hopefully , some time towards the end of the week or early next week. MR. ENNS: I thank the Honourable Mini ster for that response. I direct another question, Mr. Speaker, to the Honourable the Min ister of Renewable Resou rces and ask him whether or not he has any information or announcements to make with respect to the meetings held in Saskatchewan having to do with the problems around the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation? MR.SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter for Renewable Resou rces. HON OURABLE HARVEY BOSTROM (Rupertsland): Mr.

Speaker, I will have a report available after the meeting is held. We have not had the meeting yet. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I apologize to the Honourable Min ister. My information was the meeting was to be held on the 24th. Could the Mi nister indic ate on what date that particular meeting is to be held in Saskatchewan? MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, I expect the Min ister from Saskatchewan to be contacting my office today to final ize arrangements. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member from Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHN STON: Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Mini ster responsible for Corrections.

In view of the fact that a spokesman for the Winnip eg Police Department and a judge in the City of Winnipeg has di sputed the fig ures gi ven by the Min ister during his Estimates, is the Minis ter ready to make a clarifying statement in view of the fact that his statement has gone nationwide and if it is wrong it's put quite a cloud on the City of Winnipeg . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister for Corrections. HON OURABLE J. R. BOYCE (Winn ipeg Centre): Mr.

Speaker, the figure I used was put out by Stats Canada and I provided a sheet to the committee that is looking at my Estimates, and if I said once, and I think Hansard will show about five times, I said it was put out by Stats Canada. I said it to every reporter that phoned me over the weekend, except the one from the Free Press that I hung up on at ten o'clock last night. There is no di sagreement between the City of Winnipeg fig ures and our figu res. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Robl in. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable the Minis ter in charge of Transportation , I guess it's the Min ister of Ind ustry and Commerce. I wonder if the Min ister or the government can advise the House if they intend to make submission to the Canadian Transport Commission regarding proposed railway freight increases of 1O or12 percent which is projected for June 1st? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Industry and Commerce. HONO URABLE LEONARD S. EVANS (Brandon East): Mr.

Speaker, we seem to beforeve rfacing increased costs and I can assure the honourable member that we are forever pursuing the matter in various ways, but we will be doing whatever we can to make our views known to the proper authorities. MR. McKENZIE: I wonder would the Min ister or the government provide members of the Legislature with copies of their proposed submission. MR. EVANS: Well, Mr.

Speaker, depen ding on the nature of the rate adjustment in question, depending on the form that's provided for us, in some cases rate adjustments are made before any formal hearings; there may be agreement to allow certain changes to take place under certain statutes, for example. Passenger air fares, for instance, may sometimes go up without any formal hearing before the ATC. But if there is a formal presentation to be made I will be pleased to make a copy available to honourable members. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to another Mini ster, the Minis ter of Hig hways.

I wonder could the Mini ster of Hig hways advise the House if he or the government has proposed a date for weight restrictions on the hig hways in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Hig hways. HONOU RABLE PETER BURTNIAK (Dauphin ): According to the latest report, Mr. Speaker, that will be coming very shortly. To the best of my knowledge there has been no defin ite date set as yet. As soon as that is known it will be announced in the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WILSO N: Yes, a question to the Min ister of Labour. Would the Min ister confirm 12 72

Monday,Ma rch 28, 19 77 or explain that it was really his opinion only that the $50.00 an hour fee paid to Mr. Murdoch MacKay was a great deduction because I checked with the Law Society ... MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. WARREN STEEN: Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Min ister of Urban Affairs and ask the Min ister if he could report to the House as to the outcome of his meeting over the weekend with the City of Winnip eg officials regarding the Transit System deficit. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Finance. HONOUR ABLE SAUL A.

MILLER (Seven Oaks) : Well, Mr. Speaker, yes we did meet with the City of Winnipeg on Friday. I ind icated to them I would advise them today and what we have done is confirm that in fact in 19 76 the formula did call for the 50 percent of the lesser of revenue or deficit but we recognize that 19 76 was an extraordinary year, not a usual year, in that the Transit System did n't operate for about ten weeks and therefore thei r revenues fell consi derably. As a result of that we are not asking for an adjusted refund or adjustment on the amounts of money that was paid out by the province.

The amounts that they received they will be able to keep for 1976 and, as has been indic ated before in 1977 we are moving to 50 percent of deficit and we will review that policy to see how it works, at the end of this year. MR. STEEN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for another Min ister, the Minis ter of Publi c Works. I'd like to ask the Min ister of Public Works if he could tell the members of the House as to why approximately 95 percent of the fifth floor space in the Norquay Buil ding has been empty ever si nce the Department of Industry and Commerce moved out more than a year ago. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Publi c Works. Order, please. HONOUR ABLE RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I'll take that question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: I have a question for the Minis ter of Labour. Would the Min ister now be able to confirm that his government has paid his friend and NOP candi date, Mr. MacKay, over $100,000 si nce he took office. It was a question I'd asked earlier. -(In terjection)- $100,000.00. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. Order, please. The Honourable Leader of the Oppositi on. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, a question to the appropriate Min ister who might be in charge of this particular matter. It is reported that the Government of Manitoba has guaranteed a further loan to Minago Construction in Northern Manitoba of $406,000.00. Could the appropriate Mi nister advise if in addition to that loan any other grants have been made to that particu lar construction company. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Northern Affairs. HONOUR ABLE RO NALD McBRYDE (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, si nce the honourable member failed to gi ve notice of the question, I'll take the question as notice. MR. LYON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, have any grants been made recently to this construction company in addi tion to the loans? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Oppositio n. MR. LYON: While my honourable friend refreshes his me mory about his department would he find out in addi tion , Mr. Speaker' what the present state of that company is with respect to unpaid grants from the past and also with respect to further guaran teed loans up to the present time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Fi rst Min ister. MR. SCHRE YER: Mr.

Speaker, the question has been taken as notice in its substance, however, in case my honourable friend is sti ll in some doubt about the matter, it has been polic y of this Government to put funds to work to bring some opportunity for both work and training opportunity to people in those parts of the provin ce which have been so sadly neglected for so long. MR. SPEAKER: The Honcurable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: I have a question for the Min ister of Health. Would the Minis ter confirm that he agreed to a special grant of $5,300 to the Knox Day Care Centre in recent weeks? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I don't remember the exact amount but, there was a grant for no deficit, which was before the present day care program was initiated, and this is what the grant was made for, for that difference. MR. WILSON: If I heard right, this is for an old request and it doesn't mean that the Min ister is reversing his stated polic y of equal treatment for ... MR. DESJARDINS: No, Mr. Speaker, he did not hear right. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. JOH NSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I di rect my question to the Minis ter responsible for the operation of the Provincial Envi ronmental Commission. Before I ask him the question, I'd like to compliment 12 73

Monday,M arch 28, 197 7 him on his colour, it is a great improvement, and I apolog ize for not giving. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. JOHN STON: I apologize for not gi ving notice, I know the Min ister has been away. But it's been reported that there has been companies operating after the expi ration of an environmental order which allowed them to dump controlled waste either into the atmosphere or into riven'! or onto the ground. How many companies are operating with expired orders? MR. SPEAKER: Order for return. MR. JO HNSTO N: Well, Mr. Speaker, ... MR. SPEAKER: Statistical question. MR.

JOHNS TON: Well, allow me to ask the questi on. How many companies are operating with expired orders, in other words' with no control now? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Mi nes. HONOUR ABLE SIDNEY GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, just so there's no misunderstanding, it wouldn't be no control. What the honourable member is referring to is is that there would bean order granting a company authority to operate within certain and he is sugge sti ng that the limits for a certain period of time' order expires and they are continui ng to operate within those limits.

I am not aware of any cases, but I'm not sug gesting that that doesn't occur. The honourable member should be aware that when the Commission went into existence everybody was operating without orders and many still do; ther e are no clean envi ronment orders unless there is a new company going int o existence, an application has been made by somebody wishing limits to be made or a complaint is received, or something is done by the envi ronmental protection branch which brings that partic ular company before the Commission and that is done on a priority basis.

If the honourable member had a case in mind, I'd find out or I will have some information to him in a general way as a result of him having put the questi on. ORDER S OF THE DAY ADJOUR NED DEB ATES -SECO ND READI NG MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN : Mr. Speaker, would you proceed with the adjourned debates on second reading. MR. SPEAKER: Thank youAdjourned debate Bill No. 3. The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON: Stand' Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate Bill No. 4. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM : Stand, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Bill No. 5 as well. Bill No. 7. The Honourable Member for Portage La Prairie. MR. G. JO STON: Stand, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 18. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L.R. (BUD) SHERMAN: Stand' Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 20. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: Stand, Mr. Speaker. BILL (NO. 23) - INTE RIM SUP PLY MR. SPEAKER: Bill No . 23. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENN S: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I have a few comments to make on this occasion afforded to me by Bill No. 23, the Act which grants to the Government the proportion of funds, roughly a quarter of the dol lars that they need to carry on prog rams of government, including, of course, therein the proportion of funds the Mi nister of Renewable Resou rces requires, the Min ister of Northern Affairs, and as well, the portion of the $250,000 that this government is providing to the fishermen as a transportation subsidy to help ail ing fish ing ind ustries in Northern Manitoba. So, Mr.

Speaker, I believe it is appropriate that I take this occasion to bring to the government's attentio n, to the Min ister of Northern Affairs and hopefully the Minis ter of Renewable Resou rces who is not currently in his seat but who can avail himself through the reading of Hansard on this occasion. Mr. Speaker, I have been drawing to the attention of the government si nce the start of this Session, the serious di fficulties that have been encountered by northern fishermen with respect to their relations and thei r continuing operation within the framework of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation. Mr.

Speaker, I should like to make it very clear to members opposite that it is a particular position that I take with some caution. I am well aware, Mr. Speaker, that in a sense partisan politics has little room in this issue, in the sense that the record will very clearly indic ate that past administrations, past Conservative adminis trations, in concert with the present NOP admini stration, both worked co-operatively in bringing about some order into the marketing of freshwater fish in this provi nce. I make thatstat ement on the basis that I don'twant any impli ed suggestion to be left that we 127 4

Monday,Ma rch 28, 19 77 are now merely playing pol itics with the issue at the expense of northerners and particula rly our native people in Northern Manitoba who, in many instances, find the fish ing industry one of the few viable economic opportunities open to them. But, Mr. Speaker, what has happened to what was a hope shared by the then Conservative administration and carried out by the present NOP administration? The fish ing industry has gone downhill in the last eight years and that's not simply because I say so, it is because the statistics support it.

The fish ing industry that at one time harvested some 75 mil lion pounds of fish is now down to some 30 to 35 mil lion pounds of fish, if my general reading of the facts is reasonably correct. Mr. Speaker, we have agit ation within the fishing community rangin g from southern Manitoba to the northern areas as both the Min ister of Northern Affairs and the Min ister of Renewable Resou rces can, of recent date, attest to, ag itation of great concern among the fishermen as to their continued relationsh ip with the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation . Mr.

Speaker, I should like on this occasion to take the opportunity to table and present to the Min ister a petition that I received just recently, dated March 18 th, from the Gimli area, a petition listi ng some 28, 29 fishermen with the specific request that they be gi ven the privilege of opting out of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation. Mr. Speaker, I would like to read into the record some of their major complaints. 1) The fishermen indic ate that they have never had an opportunity to vote. 2) The Marketing Board was established to be a buying and selling desk only.

The end result was that they entered into a process ing situation which is far too costly. At the time of the initial concept of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation , it was estima ted that the cost of operating that selling desk, referred to in item No. 2, that of creating a buying and selling desk, would be of the order of $1 00,000.00. The result is that we have a $6 milli on process ing plant at Transcona that the fishermen of this province have to carry on their backs, so to say, Mr. Speaker, as a heavy add ition to the overhead costs to their product. The fishermen were told, Mr. Speaker, by a Mr.

Corney that the handling charges would be from one to one-and-a-half cents a pound. The end result, Sir, some seven or eight years later, is that even at the outset of the Corporation's activities the handling charges rose to 18 to 25 cents a pound and are currently running at between 40 and 50 cents a pound. Mr. Speaker, it is perhaps that handling charge, that overhead, which is placing the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation in its most di fficu lt position .

It is simply incapable of having the flexibil ity to compete in the foreign markets and international markets, mainly those of our neigh bours to the south, where we export 85 to 90 percent of our products to. The fishermen at Gi mli are concerned that the mere calling of a referendum will not solve the problem. They claim, Mr.

Speaker, rightly or wrongly, that a certain amount of discrimination exists within the operations of both Min isters involved, di scrimination as between natives and white fishermen, that in too many instances the native fishermen are, in fact, supported and aided with different kinds of programs, supp ort programs, subsidy programs, training programs, grant programs, that are not available to those relatively lesser numbers, the white fishermen fish ing on the southern lakes such as Lake Manitoba and Lake Winnip eg . They go on, Mr.

Speaker, to say that the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation's fi nancial statements are not clearly tabled. And, Sir, this is supported by none other than the Audit or-General in Ottawa who makes that rather serious charge that the Corporation's books are a mess and that after repeated attempts by Federal MPs in the House, attempts to getting the current report before them tor consideration , have been unable to do so. Mr.

Speaker, we are dealing with the Estimates of the Min ister of Renewable Resou rces and we sti ll do not have last year's financial statement, last year's report on the operations of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation. Now, Mr. Speaker, surely that is unforgivable. We already deal, in far too many instances, with things of the past. We are continuall y dealing with statistics as those provided by us a year ago.

But in the case of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation, Sir, we, not only we in opposition, not only the opposition in the House of Commons, but the Minis ter directly responsible for the welfare of the fishermen of this province, to this date sti ll does not have last year's, and I underline, Mr. Speaker, last year's Annual Report of the Freshwater Fish Marketi ng Corporation, which the Auditor-General had some pretty severe comments about i,ust recently. It is also of concern, Mr. Speaker, that the present Chairman, Mr.

Moss, has already ind icated to the Inland Fishermen's Association that there will be a decrease in the price of fish for the forthcoming spring and summer season. All the more reason, these fishermen, Sir, from Gimli state: All the more reason for these fishermen wanting to sel l to the free markets. . They also make the point, Mr. Speaker, that if the Marketing Board hinges on 29 fishermen leaving it, it would appear to be in a very unstable posit ion. Fishermen, they indic ate, Mr.

Speaker, would be content to stay with the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation if their prices would be in accordance with the free market prices. Mr. Speaker, I would like to table this petition that was sent to me from Gimli with the attached 1275

Monday.March 28, 1977 sig natures of what I gather to be most of the fishermen in the Gimli area, and make that available to the Mi nister of Renewable Resou rces, and ask the Honourable Min ister precisely what is his intentio n, what are his plans to resolve the situa tion . Mr. Speaker, conceptually there is no difference in the desire that both the opposition and the government has in promoting the best of all possible deals for our fishermen in this province. They dese rve it, Mr. Speaker, and they require it.

I could remind the honourable members opposite, and there are those who share my opinion, that perhaps we made a tragic error or a serious error when we allowed the Federal Government to move as forcibly as it did in so quickly di sbanding and throwing out what was left of the private sector in the fish ing ind ustry, throwing them literally, and I might add, with very little consideration and certainly no compensation, out of business and creating the large modern process ing plant that we now have in the constituenc y of the Honourable Min ister who is just now leaving the Chamber, the Member from Transcona, the Min ister of Labour.

We understand, Mr. Speaker, that there migh t have been that situation that sometimes develops where members vie for certain economic activity within their constituency. We understand that at that time between the two Messrs. (Paul ley, Pawley) , and I shouldn't mention their names in this Chamber, but the two members, the Member from Selkirk and the Mem ber from Transcona, that there in fact was some heated debate as to where that plant should be located.

After all, because of the senior position of the Min ister of Labour, his view prevailed and the plant was moved to Transcona, at the expense of the Honourable, the Attorney-General, who lost a process ing plant in Selkirk and, I might say, much more important, some 30 or 40 people lost their permanent employment opportunities at Selkirk with the closing down of the processing plant that was in existenc e in Selkirk. So much, Mr. Speaker, for a little bit of the party politic s that might have been thereat the decision as to where the plant should be located. Our position, Mr.

Speaker, at that time, and Hansards of the day will support it, is that we opposed that kind of centralization from Day One. We saw, we foresaw the kind of di fficulties that it would lead to. We could anticipate the kind of massive front-end loading onto overhead charges that the fishei men would have to bear and we could predict the fact that it could only add to the difficulties we would have in marketing our fish in a competitive market abroad, a market that is to a large extent, an export of nature. Mr.

Speaker, I must also say that in doing away with the private sector so completely at that ti me, we also lost some of the entrepreneurial ski lls that was necessary to market, particularly some of the more di fficu lt fish that our fishermen catch. Mr. Speaker, it doesn't take any great deal of genius to market our prime commodi ty, namely pic kerel fish or our good whitefish orsome of ourotherhighl y desirable species. Anybody that put them on a shelf had buyers coming to them and by and large buyers at a good price.

What we looked forward to in putting together the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation was that they would be assisting us, principally in selling some of our less desirable fish , some of the fish that is described as rough fish , the mullets, the catfish, the marias, carp, that we would develop through new technology, imported perhaps from Europe where many of these species are used as a very desirable food commodi ty.

That we could, instead of having these fish waste and, in fact, become a pollution problem on our lakes as the fishermen haul tons of these fish out of their lakes and simpl y let them rot on the ice , that with the aid of a government sponsored, indeed government subsid ized, government supported operation , that we would find markets for some of these species of fish to the benefit of our fishermen in Manitoba. Well, Mr. Speaker, that really hasn't come to pass, that really hasn't come to pass and we now have the situation , Mr.

Speaker, where, because of the heavy front-end loadin g that is required to carry the cost of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation and, Mr. Speaker, we're sti ll speaking in the dark, I haven't seen a report of this year's operation, we know that the report can't be all that promisi ng, if anything, it can only be more di scouraging. After all, the North Ontario fishermen have opted out of the operation. Now they di dn't represent all that much vo lume, but nonetheless any decrease in volume in that plant means hig her costs to those that are remaining.

We have very serious concerns being expressed by Saskatchewan fishermen and my understanding is that they are seriously debating the question as to whether or not they wish to remain in the board and, Sir, if they do opt out of the board, that means about 25 percent of the product now flowing through the plant will no longer come to the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation in the plant at Transcona, adding again a very sizeable increase to the overhead that Manitoba fishermen will have to bear. Now, Mr. Speaker, what do we do about it? And really, what is this government prepared to do about it?

I ask the Honourable Mi nisters involved, the Min ister of Renewable Resou rces particularly, that this has to be one of the principal concerns that's on his desk at this particular time and I would hope that we could engender some kind of a debate in this Chamber we offer him pretty clear support in whatever moves he intends to take in this direction, if they can in fact improve the situation. 12 76

Monday,March 28, 19 77 There is little solace coming from me in seeing the Freshwater Fish Marketing Board destroyed. I particu larly don't look forward to seeing a facility that was put up largely at public expense, some six milli on dolla rs, standing empty. On the other hand, you know, I cannot turn a deaf ear to the kind of requests that are coming, not just to me but they are comi ng with regularity to the government side, to the minis ters involved . I would sugge st, Mr. Speaker, that we look about for some pretty serious solutions. I might sugge st to the gove rnment, Mr.

Speaker, that the eat Board would not function for one day, one week, if it operated on the same premise as the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that we have enough reason to understand that many of our other marketing boards, such as the vegeta ble marketing boards and the di fficulties we had with that would not operate and did not, in fact, operate without buildi ng into it some relief valves and some safety factors. Now Mr. Speaker, it may well be that we don't require the services of a government controlled board to sell our prime fish .

Perhaps we can look for ways and means of marketing those products with which we have no dif ficulty moving, for which we have sales people continually knocking on our doors, in fact, fact, offering very attractive contracts to our fishermen for that product. Mr. Speaker the real rub comes in, is that pic kerel fish for instance, are sel ling today in Winnipeg for $1.00 to $1.15 a pound and the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation is paying their fishermen 63 cents or 64 cents a pound. Now they just simply cannot accept that as being just and, Mr.

Speaker, nor can I and I would hope to think that most honourable members opposite can't see that as being just . And if you allow that situation to conti nue to any extent, in fact it has continued too long know we may be throwing out the baby with the wash basin and everything when we should be worrying about how we can correct the situation before it gets out of hand. It may be, Mr.

Speaker, that we look upon the special problems that we have with respect to transportation, with respect that we have to species of fish, with respect to how we can move these fish in the north, that we look to the northern fisheries as di stinct from the southern fisheries , I don't know, Mr. Speaker, I'm not privy to all the facts and all the information that the Min ister of Renewable Resou rces has. It may be, Mr.

Speaker, that as a governmental decision, just as they had decided that the northern fisheries is worthwhile supporting to the tune of $250,000 annually in help of offsetting some of the expensive freight charges, that we look at the northern fisheries as di stinct and as separate from those of the south. Mr.

Speaker, I suspect that if the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation could incorporate into its structure some loopholes or some abil ity, some flexi bility, I shouldn't use the word loopholes, I say flexibil ity, that would encourage and would attract back some of the entrepreunerial skill s of the free enterprises into the busi ness, then in many instances some of the species that are now totally ig nored , totally unmarketable, could in fact be marketed. Mr.

Speaker, I sug gest to you that much like within the operation of the Wheat Board, in fact, it should be a lesson to those who sometimes sugge st that all products, all cereals whether it's flax, wheat, etc., should be marketed solely and in monopoly through the Wheat Board should think twice about because, in the Wheat Board structure, although it is a very large and one of the major marketing corporations that we have, marketing board that we have on the Prairie provinces, there is sufficient area tkere for the private trader to excercise his particular ski lls in moving tons of rapeseed to spec ialized markets in Japan, in finding and locating those special ized seed markets for some of the specia lty crops that we grow.

I would sugge st even those that the Min ister of Agriculture tried to peddle to Cuba at a loss like black beans. But, Sir, over the years the private grain traders, the private seed house have been able to perform a very useful function to the farmer, the prairie farmer on the Prairies, by find ing these markets, finding cash markets for tke farmer and allowing these markets, these products to be sold off board or alongside the operations of the Wheat Board. We don't have that, Mr. Speaker, with respect to fish.

And I'm sug gesting that we could learn a lesson from what is happening , or how the grain farmer has learned to co-exist both in the free and the open market with some of his production and as well as live with the totally controlled market, orderly marketing syste m, in other areas such as the major grains, wheat, barley and the cereals that we grow. Mr. Speaker, I'm throwing these sug gestions out to the Honourable Min ister as hopefully constructive bits of advice.

I would like to think that we could come somehow to grips with the situation without seeing the destruction of the Freshwater Fish Marke�ing Corporation as such. Mr. Speaker, let me be very clear about that. There is no way that we should allow the situation to resort back to pre-board days. We cannot allow the indi vidual fishermen to be prey to the economic clout that the purchaser had in pre-board days. I sug gest, Mr. Speaker, that there have been some sign ificant changes take place within the primary producers that we should also be aware of.

The producer, that is the fisherman, is no longer quite as helpless as he once was. In most instances he has su ccessfu lly evolved into a co-op marketing structure. On most lakes, with varying deg rees of success, the fishermen have banded together in fish ing co-ops, and I speak particularly of the co-ops that I am famili ar with such as the Lake Manitoba Fish ing Co-op which is a highly successful fishing co-operative and it has had a good record in terms of the handling of its affairs in terms of the paying 127 7

Monday.March 28, 1977 out of dividends to its fishermen, and in terms of receiving the very best possible price for their product for not "a" fisherman but for the group collectively. And so, Mr. Speaker, the situation isn't quite the same back home at the lakes as it was, say, in 1965 or in 1968 or '69, in the pre-board days. There is a better organization on the lakes within the fish ing community and surely with that better organization, if we take and we are bold enough to exercise some pretty serious surgery on the board as it now stands, and Mr.

Speaker, I do not accept for a moment the fact that it is a federal board, that it is a federal creature by nature, by legislative nature, that we can afford to just take our hands off it and not concern ourselves with it. Sir, we represent, right here in Manitoba, the bigge st part of the board. We represent fully 50, 55 percent of what goes on with respect to the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation. To have the Min ister sug gest that because the agreements were sig ned with the federal authorities that leaves us with only one board member on that board puts us in a very poor driver's seat, well then, Mr.

Speaker, then again let's call for a surgeon. Let's call for serious surgery because the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, the fishermen in northern Manitoba, the fishermen in southern Manitoba are very di sturbed to the extent thatthey are petition ing the Min ister to opt out. And, Mr. Speaker, I quite frankly sugge st that we owe the fishermen in Manitoba something better than merely acquiescing to that request. Opting out and having no better alternative, quite frankly, is not good enough for the fishermen in this provinc e.

I would sug gest that the Honourable Min isters consider very seriously calling for the very highe st level of conferences with the other authorities. If Saskatchewan is meeting with the Min ister in the next few days, fine. I would suggest that we better bring in somebody from Alberta. I would suggest that we better bring in the federal authorities and I suggest that we better sit down and see what we can do with respect to a situation that is not getting better. Mr.

Speaker, one of the reasons why it is not getting better is because the pressure to sell outside the board, in my judgement, is increasing not decreasing. It's just in the last few months, for instance, that you know the markets, traditional markets in the southern United States that were fed by Mexico have been closed to them. The border has been literally closed partly because of the devaluation problems of the peso, partly because of internal problems that the Mexican government has seen fit to exercise for reasons of their own.

But I am told that within the last few months major markets that were suppl ied by fish in the Houston, Arizona, New Mexico area have been closed. And there are buyers, right now, buyers that have been dealing with the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation for the last month and a half that are wandering around this province with contracts of a milli on, two milli on, three milli on pounds of fish at very attractive prices. At very attractive prices. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I'm not prepared to let these buyers loose on our fishermen and to kind of revert back to the days where one buyer of whom we may not have full facts and full information, or indeed have full trust in, should be allowed to make the ki nds of arrangements that could in the long term, be detrimental to our fishermen but I'm sugge sting, Sir, that we could use our central selling desk concept in this area. I sugge st that the Board has demonstrated a woeful lack of flexibil ity in dealing with these people and I'm sug gesting, Mr.

Speaker, that markets are going for the wanting whiie our fish , in many instance, are not being fished or are in fact rotting on the ice of our lakes. Mr. Speaker, I use this occasion to bring this matter to attention of the Honourable Min ister with the hope, with the sincere hope, that he will in the next few days, particularly in his meeti ngs with these people from Saskatchewan consider the seriousness of this nature and recogn ize that something very worthwhile, you know, may be going down the drain unless some corrective steps are taken at this particular time.

And I would ask the Mi nister to use every imagina tion possible in recognizing the need for restru cturing, for reorganizing and for rethinkin g our co-operation and our participation in the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Speaker, I think we should thank the honourable member for expanding on the speech he gave during the Estimates of the Min ister of Renewable Resou rces for the benefit of the House and not only repeating his comments there but repeating some of mine and some of the Min ister of Resou rces comments at that particular time. Basic ally, though, Mr. Speaker, what the member has recommended to the House this afternoon is basically what the Min ister of Renewable Resou rces has been pursuing.

The member was quite correct when he indicated that the legis lation sett ing up the Fish Marketing Corporation and the involvement of the province in the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation was drafted when he was the Min ister of Resources, brought forward by ourselves when we became the government and I remember the honourable member getting very upset when we attempted to claim credit for that legislation. And he got very upset and said, "That's my legis lation.

It was drafted when I was in office and you people are just bringing it forward." And I don't think the member di sagrees with that or would have any argument with that particular statement. One problem, though, with the member's comments, he said that certainly it's not correct to use 127 8

Monday, March 28, 19 77 the fact that it's a federal agency and a federal board which we have one representation on, as an excuse, but I would submi t that neither is it quite fair to make comments that appear to put the blame on the Province of Manitoba fully for the functioni ng of that board and the fact that their reports have not been made available at this time, and thei r management and their reporting is not what it should be. When the legisla tion was brought forward in terms of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation there was certain serious problems within the fishing ind ustry.

The province agreed that action shou Id be taken and I don't thin k there was any di sagreement between either side of the House on the establishment of the corporation but I guess on hindsi ght the honourable member is saying - and I'm a little bit concerned here because I agree with him on quite a few of the points he made and that doesn't always make me feel comfortable, to agree with the Member for Lakeside - but the authority we gave over to the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation has not been used in the manner that we feel has been most beneficial to the fishermen of Manitoba.

And I suppose that one of the problems has been the setting up of a very large plant to process fish with a high capital input into that plant and with the unwillingness of the federal authorities to write off some of the capital of that plant so that in fact the cost of the capital and the high cost of processing comes out of the pockets of the fishermen in Manitoba. And this is a fairly serious mistake but again we're looking back on it it, at a mistake that somebody else has made.

In hindsight, I think that governments and industry are learning that sometimes it's not the best to go with a big plant, with a big processing, with centralized facil ities , but to go with smaller faci lities and decentralized faci lities. And that is the directi on, certainly, that we have been attempting to move in in economic development in the north through a number of departments, to get away from huge processing to small process ing in areas where in fact there is highest unemployment, so people can take advantage of those opportunities. So, Mr.

Chairman, I can't di sagree with the member because in those days, not being a Cabinet Min ister, I was able to go out in a protest march and protest agai nst the moving of the Selkirk plant from Selkirk to Transcona, from a smaller plant to a very large and very elaborate plant. But I don't think that there is a disagreement that there has to be some co-ordination and some central marketing. There doesn't necessarily have to be central processing but there has to be some form of central marketing to protect the best inte rests of the fish ermen.

When the corporation came about those fishermen had organized themselves into co-operatives. They had organized themselves into co-operatives with advic e and assist ance from the previous government and their co-operative development branch. Some of those were successful and some of those failed although a big issue wasn't made of the failu res because it was understood that some of those, in fact, would fail. But those fishermen that had organi zed themselves into co-operatives, and into successful co-operatives, had some protection in the marketplace. They were getting fairly reasonable returns on th eir fish.

Those fishermen that had not organi zed themselves into co operatives, that were sti ll completely dependent upon private fish companies and private fish buyers, were in an extremely di fficu lt situation and the fishery was in very serious trouble. So the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation didn't benefit the co-ops, people organized into co-ops, as much as it benefited the fishermen who were unorganized at that time. The member made reference to the utilization of experts in the fish business and I think that there is some merit in that sugge stion.

But I can recall when the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation was set up and the independent fish buyer at The Pas was appointed as an agent for the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation, I got calls from all the fishermen in my constituency sayi ng, "Why is that such-and-such-and-such being appointed in thi s new corporation when he's the one that's been using us all these years, and taking advantage of us all these years?" And there was a very strong reaction to the use of those people.

Now I'm not critical of the fish buyers or the fish companies at that time because they are in a very very tough and competitive industry and the only way they can make a buck was off the back of the fishermen and that's how they made a buck. So in order to survive they had to operate in a certain manner and that's the manner that they operated in. As a matter of fact, the corporation has hired the indi vi dual I got all the calls from, again , and he's now a regular employee of theirs so they have that expertise.

There's a little bit of difference now that the expertise or the fish buyers or those that used to operate in the past, are now a little bit more controlled and a little bit more affected by the fishermen. That is the fishermen are a little bit more on top and the old-timers are a little bit more in a professional role but not in a controlli ng role, in an advisory role, in a technical role, but not in a controlli ng role over the fishermen. So that is, I thi nk, a fairly positive thing, that these people can be u,sed as long as they're on tap for the fishermen but not on top of the fishermen.

Not in control of what the fishermen do. The member made mention also of the transportation and that transportation costs have increased very greatly. And this is one of the serious problems. The fish prices haven't increased very greatly; the transportation costs have increased very greatly. I think that in the last five years, for 127 9

Mond ay,March 28, 19 77 example, air fare has gone up something like eig hty percent, if I can recall the fig ures, in the transportation of fish. And another federal Crown corporation is also part of the problem. The Canadian National Rai lway and the way they function in hauling fish, the manner in which they deal with the fish-haul, has been a detriment to the fish ing industry in northern Manitoba. And that other Crown company should also be brought to task and pressure put on them to deal in a more appropriate way with the fishermen. Mr.

Speaker, I think that we apprecia te the repeat ofthe Honourable Member for Lakeside and his comments. I know that he would have to be the one to comment because I don't think the Leader of the Opposition knows very much about the fisheries industry or about northern Manitoba in general MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. McBRYDE: ... but the Honourable Member for Lakeside, in his previous capacity ... MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR.

McBRYDE: ... has some understanding of that si tuation and I'm sure that the Min ister of Resou rces appreciates the advice and sugges tions from the experienced Member from Lakeside who.has recommended a number of things that the Min ister of Resou rces is already in the process of doing, and I'm sure that the Min ister of Resou rces welcomes the opportunity to explain what he is doing to fight on behalf of the fishermen of Manitoba so that they have the opportunity to earn a decent living, to be productive, and to feed and look after their families. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister for Renewable Resou rces. MR. BOSTR OM: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'll be brief for two reasons: one, I'm just recovering from the flu; the second, the honourable member has heard my opin ions on this matter more than once, I believe, as well as other members of the House. We had a rather lengthy debate within my Estimateson this particular topic, at which time I expressed some of the things that we are doing, indic ating that we have been holding meetings regularly over the last couple of years.

In fact, within two months of bei ng appoi nted Min ister responsible for fisheries in Manitoba, I had contacted the Min isters of the Federal Government that would have anything to do with fisheries, including the Min ister of Indi an Affairs, the Minis ter of Fisheries, the Honourable Romeo LeBlanc. And in my meetings with them, within that first two months, I outlined all the things I saw at that time as bei ng the problems associ ated with the operation of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation.

I must say to date that we've had a number of meetings since, a number of presentations both by myself, indi viduall y, and jointly with the Mini ster from Saskatchewan who is also concerned about the operation of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation. And to date, Mr. Speaker, we have not had a great deal of success in getting reaction, decision by the Federal Minis ters to assist the fishermen of Manitoba to improve their lot.

We argued and negotia ted for months to try to get them to ag ree on a transportation subsidy for northern Manitoba fish and finally we had to go on our own in this area even though it is clearly understood, and I believe clearly accepted by all members of this House, that the Federal Government defin itely has a responsibil ity in this area, and should be indeed assisting the fishermen of Manitoba. However, Mr. Speaker, we saw a gap there that had to be fil led and we had to step in to fill that gap to help the fishermen of northern Manitoba be able to conti nue to make a living from that industry.

We have made a number of other representations, some of which were to satisfy problems that Saskatchewan had and those that were joint problems that Saskatchewan and Manitoba felt should be rectified . And, Mr. Speaker, I don't believe either provinc e is satisfied with the way the organization is structured. The board of directors is not that representative in the way it is appoi nted of the fishermen and the producing provinces. Manitoba for example only has one director on the board and, Mr. Speaker, we have made representation that there should be more directors on the board representing Manitoba.

We hope that having more directors on the board, that this would assist in getting a better voic e in the operation of that company. Mr. Speaker specifica lly on this the Minis ter from Saskatchewan and myself came together on a proposal last year to the federal Min ister in which we recommended that the board composition be as follows: That five fishermen-di rectors be elected on the basis of production representation. This would gi ve Manitoba two to three directors on the board alone. There would be accordi ng to our recommendation only five federal appointees,

whereas now, Mr. Speaker, they are all appoi nted federally - even our appoi ntee to the board is only nominated by the Government of Manitoba and is then named or appoi nted by the federal Cabi net. The third recommendation we made is that there be five provincial appoi ntees on the basis of financial accountability. And, Mr. Speaker, Manitoba according to the agreement with the Federal Government in 19 69 - which was signe d, I believe, by the Honourable Member for Lakeside and certainly promoted by his party before their defeat - our present agreement only allows us one 1280

Monday,March 28, 19 77 director on the board, as I said . This would gi ve us, with five provi ncial appoi ntees on the basis of financial accountabil ity, two to three directors in addition to the two or three that would be elected by the fishermen themselves. So, Mr. Speaker, this would greatly improve Manitoba'a Manitoba's representation on this board which I believe at the present time is lacking because we only have the one member and his opportunity on the board to push the polic ies and the programs that the Provincial Government wants him to pursue is very limited.

In the area of assisting the fishermen directly, Mr. Chairman, we made a number of proposals to the Federal Government, almost all of which were not even considered to date. For example as I already mentioned, we made a proposal on behalf of the fishermen for transportation assistance. This was rejected so we went on our own on that one. We also asked for a cost-shared program. This was also supported by the Government of Saskatchewan.

We asked for a cost sharing, federal provincial, with the provinces all participating on a program of price stailization which would be a temporary thing until we got the corporation back on track and to gi ve that credibili ty back to the fish prices and the fish markets so that the fishermen could get out and fish and feel comfortable about being a fisherman again . Mr.

Speaker, recognizing the need for improvements to capital facilities in all of the lakeside stations and in all of the lakes of northern Manitoba and remote areas, we also proposed that we have a prog ram of capital improvement, of fish-handling faci litie s that would be cost-shared, federal provincial, with the provinc es participating with the Federal Government. This also to date has not been accepted by the Federal Government. We asked for a program, Mr.

Speaker, just as the honourable member said he had hoped, the corporation when it first was started, one of the hopes was that it would really market the rough species of fish. Naturally as the honourable member indicates, it is not that di fficult to market those varieties of fish that are high quality, high in demand by the public, high in demand by the export sales, but it is very di fficult to market our less desirable species. Mr.

Speaker, we had said that the promotion and marketing of these species must not necessarily come, in fact should not come, from the pockets of the fishermen who are primarily fish ing the high quality species. They need not necessarily pay the cost of marketing the lower-priced and lower-quality species. We propose, Mr. Speaker, that this should be the responsibili ty of the Provincial and the Federal Governments. We proposed , and I had concurrence on this from our gove rnment, to cost-share on a program of product deve lopment and promotion, Mr.

Speaker, and the Min ister from Saskatchewan was in agreement with me on this and we made this proposal to the Federal Government. And this is another one which has not been accepted to date. We also proposed to the Federal Government that they write off the outstanding depreciation and interest charges on the Transcona plant. The Transcona plant at the present time is a total debt to the fishermen within the area of the corporation. They must pay that back under their existing arrangement. And Mr.

Speaker, we make the case that this debt should be written off, the fishermen should no longer be burdened with the debt of the Transcona plant, that it is too onerous a debt, given the fish prices as they presently stand. The net incomes of the fishermen have been dec lining steadily since the corporation has been established. The fishermen of Saskatchewan and Manitoba, theirnet incomes after taking off thei r expenses have been decl ining. They have not been increasing. And Mr.

Speaker, part of this is the fact that they are paying off a debt which is the huge plant in Transcona which comes off every pound of fish that is harvested within the corporation area. We are presently negotia ting on all these poi nts that I just mentioned with the Federal Government. I am meeting with the Min ister from Saskatchwan next Monday. The Honourable Member for Lakeside had asked me earlier today when I would be meeting with the Mi nister from Saskatchewan, and I just checked with my office after the Question Period and a meeting has been arranged for Monday next. Mr.

Speaker, we will be coming together with a common position on these points and others to present as soon as possible to the federal authorities responsib le. And Mr. Speaker, I concur with the honourable member that there is a danger here of the corporation losing its credibil ity with the fishermen and we must act quickly and we are going to be pressing this point home to the Federal Government that they act with haste as well and try to come to a reasonable solution to the problems faci ng the fishermen. And it will take some funds, Mr.

Speaker, it will take spend ing on the part of both Federal and Provincial Governments to assist solvi ng many of the problems that are facing the fishermen today. Mr. Speaker, I would certainly expect and appreciate the support of all members of the House in my fight to help the fishermen of this province. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGE NSON: Mr. Speaker, I just want to make a few brief comments in response to what the Min ister of Northern Affairs and the Mi nister of Renewable Resou rces have been saying.

It seemed to me the tenor of their remarks, the impression they created, at least in my mind, is that at all costs we must save the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation and to heck with the fishermen. It is the corporation and the concept of so-called orderly marketing that is important, 1281

Monday.March 28, 19 77 rather than the fishermen themselves. I suppose that that is to a large extent the reason why the corporation is in dif ficu lty because they have refused to recognize some of the changes that have taken place and they refused to recogn ize one very point at the outset.

And I recall during the course of the debate on the setting up of the corporation , when I sugg ested that rather than confiscati ng or expropriating or whatever they did to all the fish process ing plants along the lakes, located in strategic areas which would have obviated the necessity of high transportation costs, that they follow the example of the Wheat Board and simply license those plants to act on behalf of the corporation .

I think that if that policy had been pursued at that time - and I don't say that just because I made the suggestion - but if that policy had been pursued at that time, they would not have had that tremendous white elephant sitting over there in Transcona, that plant that the Mi nister sug gests is eating up all of the profits of the fishermen, there is no question about that.

I recall last year asking the Mi nister during the course of the consideration of his Esti mates why it was that fishermen were getting 60 cents a pound, I believe it was, for pic kerel fil lets at that time, and they were retailin g over the counters for something like $2.50 at that time. I believe that today that they are much more than that. And his answer was a classic. His answer gave us some insight into what the Mini ster of Agriculture had been contemplating for the dairy farmers.

He said that it was because of the high capital costs at the plant of Transcona that had to be paid by the fishermen that the corporation were not able to pay them more for their prod ucts and sell at a lower cost.

Well, I drew a picture for the Min ister at that time in which I reminded him that had the Min ister of Agriculture had his way with the crocus plants, it would not have been inconceivable that in four or five years' time the same question could be asked in the Mini ster of Agriculture's Estimates as to why it was that the farmers were getting perhaps $5.00 a hundred for their milk and it was retailing over the counter for over $1 .00 a quart. He gave the answer to the reasons why the dairy farmers and the opposition in the House were so opposed to the construction of that plant.

But that is the kind of folly that we get into from time to time when you are wedded to a dogma and the theory here being that orderly marketing is the marketing of a product through one desk. That to me is the most disorderly kind of marketing that you could possibly im ag ine and because the present government are wedded to that kind of philosophy of marketing, there is no hope that the situation in the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation is going to improve to any great extent.

The Minis ter apparently takes a great deal of satisfaction from simply sayi ng, "Well, we are rTJaking representations to Ottawa on this and that and the other thing" and that the fact that they are making representations on behalf of the fishermen of this province, that that is sufficient. We have had enough experience in this provinc e to know that anything that is domi nated by the Federal Government is not likely to be acting in the best interests of western Canada.

We have had too many experiences to believe that a corporation run by the Feds is going to have any great interest in making any improvements that will be done to the benefit of the fishermen in this province. Oddly enough the people of Ontario have opted out of the plan for very good reasons, for the very reasons that a good many fishermen in this province are talking about doing the same th ing. I suppose that we can talk about the mess that the fishermen are in as a result of this concept of the marketing of fish - not a great deal is going to be done about it because the plant is there.

I agree that if there is a possible chance of getting the cost of thatt hing written off, it might be a tremendous help to the fishermen. That may be one avenue but I don't hold up much hope that the Federal Government is going to ag ree to do that sort of thing, unless of course the Min ister strategically applies the pressu re to the government about the time that there is an election booming on the horizon, a federal election that is. That may be one way of making sure that at least they will listen to you and at least they will make promises which they probably will not keep.

But it does seem to me that increased representation on that board is not going to solve that problem. Mere bodies on the board in numbers is not going to change the fact that the big di fficulty that lies in our inabil ity to market fish for the fishermen at a profit to the fishermen is the fact thatthey are burdened with the capitalization cost of the plant itself and until that problem can successfully be resolved there isn't, I don't think, much hope that a great deal can be done.

The Min ister also mentioned that there was a problem in the marketing of the rough species of fish that were taken out of the lakes and I find that a little bit diff icult to understand. In these days where we know that there is a considerable amount of research being done, that the researchers have been unable to come up with the processing or the development of a product that is and can be readily saleable and indeed eagerly sought after by customers. I find that very di fficu lt to understand. I wonder what they are doing over there in the way of research if they are not working on that particu lar problem.

It seems to me, and I don't know whether the present government or the Min ister has brought to the attention of our researchers the necessity of attempting to come out with some produce that is saleable. I say that if the Min ister hasn't, then I sugge st he should. And if he has, then I sugge st that he should keep after them because apparently the kind of research that is being done is 128 2

Mond ay,March 28, 1977 not materially assisting in the marketing of the rough species of fish because if that had been done, the problem would not exist at the present time. I sympathize with the Mi nister and the problem that he has inherited but I do invite him to take advantage of the suggestion that was proffered by the Member for Lakeside.

The.entrepeneurship of the private indi vidual who - I hate to even mention this - who might want to get a bit of profit out of marketing that product or doing something with it may be the best way of solving the problem, that the gove rnment is not too high-bound in their determination to prevent people from making profit, then I think that there is an avenue that could be found to help the fishermen of this province. I hope the Minis ter will take the sug gestions that have been made, not only by myself but the Member for Lakeside, to heart because this is a problem and the answers to which must be sought.

We believe that a departure from the rigid concept of marketing by the government only could be tried out to see if it would work, to see if success can be achie ved. I am convinced that, gi ven an opportunity for some material gain - which again is something that I hate to mention to this government - might be the answer to the problems of the fishermen. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Fi nance will be closing debate. MR. MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, I want to thank meers for exped iting the moving of this bill and just for the record, when it was first introduced there was a question about the arithmetic and the figures that were shown on the bill, were they right or wrong. I believe that the Member for Ri el will now agree with me that the fig ures were indeed right, it was simply a question of 25 percent of what, and I think he concurs that in fact it is 25 percent of the total of the Main Estimates less the Statutory Appropriation which is not voted upon, and therefore the amount of $275,737 is correct and does indeed represent 25 percent.

That's the only comments, Mr. Speaker, and with that I hope the bill can now, with leave, perhaps get Third and final reading. QU ESTION put and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter. MR. MILLER: I would move, Mr. Speaker, seconded by the Min ister of Hea lth, by leave, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chai r and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider and report on the following bill for Third Reading: Bill No. 23,

an Act for granting to Her Majesty Certain Sums of Money for the Public Service of the Province for the Fiscal Year Ending the 31s t day of March, 19 78. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Ways and Means, with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair. COMM ITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it the will of the Committee to proceed with the bill? (Agreed) (Bill 23 was read and passed .) Bill be reported. Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. The Chairman reported upon the Committee' s deliberations to Mr. Speaker, and requested leave to sit again.

IN SESS ION MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan . MR. JENKINS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose, that the report of the Committee be received . MOTION presented and carried. BILL NO. 23 was read a third time and passed. ADJOURNED DE BATES -SECOND REA DING {Cont'

d) MR. SPEAKER: Bill No . 25, the Honourable Member for Robl in. MR. McKENZIE: Stand, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 26, the Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. JAMES H. BI LTON: Stand, Mr. Speaker. BILL (NO. 29) -AN ACT TO AM END THE SNOW.MOBIL E ACT MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 29, the Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZI E: Mr. Speaker, we have reviewed this piece of legis lation that is before us of certain amendments to The Snowmobile Act and certainly have no basic problems with the new legislation and the amend ments to the Act.

The snowmobiles are certainly filling a very useful role in our socie ty today, especi ally amongst the people in the far north. I think it is our duty as legis lators to make sure that all possible ways and means are supplied to them to solve some of their transportation needs at this time. 128 3

Monday,March 28, 19 77 The only one concern that I would have with the legislation, Mr. Speaker, is in regard to the problems of snowmobiles running down wildlife in certain areas of the province, when we start to relax the legis lation that we have had on our records and has achieved such a high rating across Canada where Manitoba is considered to be, if not the best, one of the leading provinc es in the legislation regarding snowmobiles.

And the reason that I bring this to the Min ister's attention is the fact that British Columbia has seen fit already to ban certain areas from snowmobi les completely in that province due to the fact that those that are using them basically for recreational purposes are running down wildli fe and destroying it in its natural habitat.

A lot of people, especially young people with snowmobiles, think maybe the fun thing to do is to chase a fox or rabbit with a skidoo until it lies exhausted but it certainly is not fun for those who are conservationis ts and those who believe in the wildlife, that it has a place in our society. So, with those few remarks, I congratulate the Min ister on the legislation and we look forward to seeing it in Committee and maybe some amendments there would be worth considering regarding the controls on certain areas, hunting areas, for skido os with our wildlife. QUE STION put and carried. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Mi nister of Health, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair for Health and Social Deve lopment and the Honourable Member for St. Vital in the Chair for Corrections and Rehabilitation. 12 84

THE LEG ISLATIVE ASS EMBL Y of MANITOBA Monday, March 28, 19 77 CONCURRENT COMM ITTEES OF SU PPLY ESTI MATES -COR REC TION S CHAIR MAN, Mr. D. James Walding (St. Vital) : We have a quorum gentlemen, the committee will come to order. I refer honourable members to Page 33 in thei r Estimates Book, the Department of Corrective and Rehabilitative Services, Reso lution 64(

c) Probation and Parole Services, (1 ) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Swan Riv er. MR. JAMES H. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, I feel that the fi rst order of business is that possi bly the Min ister might gi ve us some clarification as to the news reports on Friday's meeting. They were conflicting to say the least, and I think if he could gi ve us a comp lete understanding so that it can be properly reported to the press, this horrible mess that we find ourselves in, it would be well worthwhile at this stage. MR. CHAIRMAN: I wonder if that dis cussion migh t not better take place under the next section, Care and Treatment of Juvenile Offenders,

section (d) . Reso lution 64(1 ). The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: I wonder if the Min ister would care to gi ve us an explanation, there is a lot of money involved here, a larger staff and what they are all doing. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BOYCE: One of the reasons why we, perhaps, are in this position was that we did n't want to pass too much until the Member for Swan River was here.

I gave out two pieces of information, one was kind of a synopsis of the programs that are offered within the whole ministry and another one had some figures that I received from Stats Canada on March 14 th as they reflect what they see as the crime rate in the City of Winnipeg relative to juveniles. Now that particu lar piece of information was pick ed up as if I had released it, they were my figures, which they are not. Butt he item itself is the next item. If the member has some specific questions relative to probation and parole and the rest, we can perhaps add ress ourselves to those, Mr. Chai rman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan Ri ver. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Min ister for his kind remarks but what I'm concerned about at the moment is what are we going to be spending $2,3 98,000 on in the way of Salaries? Where is that? MR. BOYCE: In this book, not this book but this whatever you would call it, a report, from Page 10 on it shows you where the di fferent staff are deployed . You will see that last year the complement was 16 4 staff man years and it's the same for the next fiscal year, there is no increase in staff.

The increase in dollars is largely because of the negotia ted agreement with the MGE A. But as I mentio ned on Friday, one of the reasons why the Di rector of Probations has been successful in containin g his staff at this level, at the same time improving the service, is by initia ting programs and I enunciated those programs including voluntary probation officers in the communi ty and with community correction committees. There are 50 voluntary probation officers and 10 0 volunteers operating in probations in the province of Manitoba.

The people who have been located in the communities who can be of assistance rather than, for example, fly-in people in remote communities. MR. BILTON : Are they paid out of this item? MR. BOYCE: Some of them are paid an honorarium of $20.00, yes. MR. BILTON: Well the thing that concerns me, Mr. Mi nister, is that I'm just wondering if that figure isn't just out of line? Here we're spending over $2 ,000, 000 in salaries and Other Expendi tures is only $466,000.00.

Are you satisfield that this sort of expend iture is doing the job that should be done and if you are satisfied, why are we in the mess we're in today, as reported by this statist ical set-up we've got here? MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Min ister. MR. BOYCE: Well, once again I wouldn't place too much credence on that statistical set-up that you have there. We'll go into the details and there's virtual ag reement between the figures that the City of Winnipeg pol ice have and our staff have.

But you will notice that every expend iture that's relative to the operation of the staff, the programs that I just referred to have increased from $926,000 to $1 ,300,000 so there actually has been an increase in the amount of r,noney available to deal with voluntary probation services in the community and, hopefully, the Di rector will be able to implement more community probations in the next fiscal year. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chai rman, I ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. I would remind the honourable member that he should direct his remarks to the Chai r and not directly to the Min ister.

The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: I ust said Mr. Chairman, prior to your remarks. I think I know my place in this committee without being prompted by yourself. But at the same time, I have read this, Mr. Minis ter, over the weekend. Mr. Chairman. I beg your pardon. And thi s is academically set up and written as 12 85

Monday,Mar ch 28, 19 77 though someone was somebody was writing a book. It tells us nothing a,t all as to exactly what you're doin g . Yo1/r e planning, you're planning, you're planning and all the time you're-y ou told us this last year - and all the time you're planning, look what we've got here. When is your planning going to end and when are we going to get some action for the money that's being spent? MR. BOYCE: Well we're not only planning. Yes, last year I told you we were planning and during the year we did it. We di d an awful lot of things.

For example, in the City of Winnip eg just two weeks ago we finalized a lease at 303 Kennedy Street which will be able to provide 24 hour services as I sugge sted we would be doing. The Director has gi ven me a list and advises that some of the things that we are doing, not just talking about, is family therapy and, of course, in trying to ... I would much rather deal in lay terms too. I agree with the Mem ber for Swan Riv er. When you talk about family therapy, that's, you know, kind of out of a textbook perhaps, but it's dealing with families who have youngsters in dif ficu lty.

Under the Probation Act, probation officers can deal with the total family. They are trying to help people who, for some reason or other, haven't developed the skill or the employable, you know, usable tools for employment, they call it lay skill s. It seems strange in this day and age that with education being so access ible, there's still a good ly number of people haven't got even a completed junior high school and they have no academic training and they have no trade training. So this has been initiated. They deal with the indi vidual in trying to get them to participate in society, if you will.

One of the things that has been worked out pretty well as far as the details are concerned, is a community restitution program. There was some attention gi ven that recently in the press as far as what they are doing in Winnipeg in the schools. There's community work activities that are done also through probation and then, of course, the other services that are performed by this particular group are bail supervision and parole supervision. So, you know, these things are now being done, they're not just talked about. There are some things that we contemplate hopefully being able to do next year.

Some of it though is in the area that will not be resolved until we know with more defin iteness as to what direction the Federal Government intends to take with young people in conflict with the law. The Associate Deputy Min ister just returned from a meeting of Deputy Min isters in Regina and he advises that it is the intention of the Federal Governmentto introduce this legislation in the fall. In the meantime they want to once again go back to the community to talk to the provincial jurisdictions and other interested groups in the community as to what direction it should take. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan Ri ver. MR. BILTON: I believe the Mi nister mentioned a few moments ago, Mr. Chai rman, that the number of staff ... I did n't catch it but there is an increase of $300,000, that's added staff is it to what you had last year? MR. BOYCE: No, no, 16 4 staff last year, 16 4 staff this year. The increase in dol lars is relative to the negotiated agreement with the Manitoba Government Emplo yees Association. MR. BILTON: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

I too examined last year's Estimates and the talks on it and there was a lot of emphasis on planning and I'm sti ll not clear as, when he talked about planning and accomplishme nts in the coming year, he mentioned something about 303 Kennedy as a step forward.

I wondered if he had done any consid eration to an educational process indic ating to some of the young offenders ... that we look at the justice system and try to explain to them what justice is because I can't help but feel that a lot of them, when they shopl ift from someplace like Eaton's or The Bay, think that they are getting even with the "haves" of society,

whereas if it was explained to them that really what happens is large businesses that they shoplift from really don't lose any money. They are really taking advantage and ripping off eve ryone because what happens is they simply take the mil lion dol lars they lose for shoplifting and add it on to the cost of the products and so, therefore, we all are payin g for di strust.

I think so many of the younger people that I've talked to seem to have this chip on their shoulder that they're getting even with somebody by shoplifting from these major department stores, when really they're costing all of us money and I think the word justic e because so many ti mes you see the parents come in to court, "Oh where did I go wrong ?" and we all know it's more complex than that. But when you start to talk to these young guys and girls, of course, they have a wrong educational thrust as to what is justice.

It would seem to me that if it was explai ned to them that they're ripping off all of us and not the big department store by their antics then we would be a lot better off. I just want to generalize on one more thought along this vei n. It also occurred to me that when, and I guess we're not supposed to talk about those fig ures in this section, butthe Min ister did gi ve us this report and when we get to that

section I would like to ask him whose paper this was on and who was it prepared by? I realize they're government figures, but somebody had to put this together. Was it somebody in his department? Also the Min ister had mentioned that the figure, up to the end of 19 76, was far worse than the 7,900 it was approxi mately 13 ,000 or 14 ,000 I believe. I'll have to check Hansard and see if that was.correct. 12 86

Monday,March 28, 19 77 But when I started check ing into my area that I represent, which is probably one of the areas that has a very large juvenile crime rate, it was found there isn't one program that government has to support drop-in centres or something for the kids to do and everyone of them you talk to says, Wi nnipeg has nothing to do. Winnip eg is dead for juveni les. And when you start to examine it, at one time we used to have - and we're talking about a concept - at one time we used to have drop-in centres in our schools, they ran out of funds, they're closed .

Why doesn't this Min ister approach the Mini ster in charge of lotteries and say, drop-in centres, recreation for the youth is recreation, we should have some of these programs supported by the lottery fund. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. In accordance with Rule 19

(2) I' m interrupting the proceed ings of the committee for Private Members' Hour and will return to the Chai r at 8 p.m. this evening. 12 87

THE LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Monday, March 28, 19 77 ESTIMATES -HE ALTH AND SOCI AL DE VELOPMENT MR. CHAIR MAN, Mr. William Jenkins(L ogan): I refer members to Page 34 of their Estimates Book, Reso lution 65, line four, Medical Program, $86,540,000.00. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: I wonder if the Minis ter can tell us what the Harry Medovy Residence near the Children's Hospital will be used as. I understand the resident interns who reside in this residence so that they can be on call around the clock at the Children's Hospital have been gi ven 30 days notice to vacate these premises.

I have another question dealing with the optometric services. It seems to me that this government has not negotiated with optometrists for quite some time. It is getti ng to be exceed ingly di fficult to attract optometrists into the rural area.

For instance, in British Columbia, optometrists are receiving $1 8.00 per service, this was established on January 1s t, 19 76; Saskatchewan optometrists are receiving $1 6.7 5 established January 1s t, 19 77 and $1 7.75 as of January 1s t, 19 78; Alberta they are receiving $26.50 January 1s t, 19 76; Ontario $17.0 0 May 1s t, 19 76; and Manitoba is only at $1 0.00 and this was established April 1s t, 19 71. I am wondering if the Min ister has gi ven any thought to negotiating with the optometrists.

As I say, it is getti ng exceed ingly difficu lt to attract optometrists into the rural areas because they want to remain in areas where there is a very large demand for their services. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 65, line four, the Honourable Min ister of Health. MR. DESJARDllNS: Mr. Chairman, the Harry Medovy building, forthe people on call, they will sti ll have the fifth floor, the last floor of that building, while they are on call, to live there. So there are no problems at all.

It will be going on for awhile, there are some pe ople living there and arrangements were made with the Health Sciences Centre and that is their responsibility but there doesn't seem to be a problem at all. The optometrists, what my honourable friend says is true, there has been a problem with the optometrists and I think most of the provinces have the same problem . It would appear that they changed their fees and they are actually, in fact, extra billing. It comes to the same amount of extra billing because things are not covered .

This is being di scussed and I was directed by Cabi net to bring in a proposal and it might be that we will have to make some changes to protect the public in this and also to pay a fair amount of fees to the optometrists. MR. BROWN : I don't know if I understood the Mini ster correctly. Did he say that there was only going to be one floor that was going to be occupied at the Harry Medovy? Cou Id he tell us what this floor was going to be used for? MR. DESJARDINS: It is for the people while they are on duty. It is a living quarter, it will not be their permanent residence but pretty well the way it is used now.

It is for the people while they are on duty, that they could stay there and there will be beds I imag ine and so on and this is what is going to happen. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 65, line four-pass; 65, line five, Pharmacare $5 mill ion-pass; line six, Ambulance Program $1 ,31 9,000-pass? The Honourable Member for ineland. MR. BROWN: I wonder if the Min ister can explain this expenditure. There seems to be no increase and I wonder if this means that there is going to be a cutback in services because certainly the cost of service is increasing.

Another question that I would like to ask the Min ister: Are patients covered under Med icare when they have to be transferred from one hospital to another or from a hospital to a personal care home, or vice versa ? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minis ter of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend should remember that this has nothing to do with the PAT, with the northern ambulance, we've covered that. This is a per capita grant to the municipal ity; it is not picking up any deficit or any budget.

It is an arrangement that we made, it was fairly liberal, fairly generous at first, to allow these people to get going . They were allowed to purchase a vehic le, to use it for a communications system and they pretty well use it the way they wish. Some municipal ities can take the funds to cover - it is not under Med icare - but to cover transportation from one hospital to the other, but that is up to the municipal ity or the di strict. It is strictly a per capita grant. MR. CHAIRMAN: 65, line six-pass; 65, line 7, Other Health Services Programs $1 50,000.00. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR.

BROWN: I wonder if the Min ister could explain the $1 50,000 for other services. MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, there was a certain amount of money last year for the proposed pilot project at the Youvi lle Foundation , that is with the Grey Nuns involving hospitals in that area, espec ially the personal care beds. No program has been approved yet, there has been a delay because the program wasn't advanced enoug h. There has been some delay on the part of the nuns 12 88

l Monday,March 28, 19 77 and also government and this will be re-opened, nothing is being done for the time bei ng, and in a few months this will be re-opened again and this will be to develop the program, there will be $1 50,000.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: Line six-pass; Reso lution 65: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $224,8 40,000 for Health and Social Deve lopment-pass. I would now refer honourable members to Page 27, Reso lution 58(

a) Min isterial, the Min ister's Compensation , Salary and Representation Allowance. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: Mr. Chai rman, we have spent almost two weeks examining the Estima tes of the Department of Health and Social Development and the time has come to move to other departments if we are to examine all of them. The Minis ter of Health has answered many questions and on many occasions we have been in agreement with his answers.

In the past eight years we have seen many universal and comprehensive health care programs which has created a demand and which this government, or any government for that matter, would find impos sible to fulfil!. The present Min ister has inherited a nightmare from his predecessors and their advisors. I doubt very much whether he will get the support from the present government to bring some control into a program, the cost of which is absorbing a greater portion of the enti re Budget every year.

In 19 69 the total Budget of this department was $82,226,946.73; in 19 70, the first year of an NDP government, this rose to $1 09,021 ,999.42; 19 71 saw further increase to $1 46,907,000; in 19 72 there was a further increase to $1 72,81 2,770.00. By this time the department had more than doubled , and the rate of inflation was low those years. Since then the costs have skyrocketed to where we now have a budget of $430,026,800, and this does not include this year's supplementary Estimates. In 19 69, we did not have a long waiting list of elective surgery.

Health care was excellent and all the provinces of Canada were envious of the health care del ivery system in Manitoba, a deliv ery system in which the providers of health care played an extremely impo rtant role. Prior to this government taking over we had sufficient acute care beds and an orderly flow of patients to alternate care facilities. Seventy percent of personal care patients were covered by government assist ance. In the eight years of the NDP Government they have spent a total of $2,2 86,838,396, and what do we have for this two and a quarter billion dollars, Mr. Chai rman?

We have Personal Care Home Program almost comp letely subsidiz ed by the government, but no beds. We have a similar subsid ized Nursing Home Program, but no beds. We have free Med icare Program - the pride of the NDP Government - but no beds. Hospi tals are jammed with elderly patients awaiting appropriate care. Patients in their acute bed hospitals are occupying enough beds to create two or three acute hospitals. And what is your answer, Mr. Mi nister? The answer seems to be to build another extensive acute care bed hospital. Everything is free, Mr. Chairman, free, but nothing is avai lable.

This government seems to be following cl osely what other socialistic countries have done in health care, and special favourites seem to be Sweden and Great Britain. Where are these countries now? Social ized medicine and social ized policies have brought these countries into serious fiscal difficu lties. Proof positive that governments cannot be everything to everybody. Sweden, Great Britain and Manitoba have all experienced grave battles with the chief providers of health care, the medical doctors, because of interference in the health care del ivery system by bureaucrats.

Bureaucrats have di srupted the orderly flow between various health facilities creating hugs backlogs of elective surgery and long waiting lists for nursing homes and other facil ities. We are more than pleased , Mr. Chairman, that the Min ister finally has decided to provide a place for children in need of psyc hiatric treatment. This is long overdue, and a former Min ister of Health under the Conservative Government told me that they had set aside $4 milli on for a hospital for mentally di sturbed chi ldren and we are pleased inde ed that this is about to materialize.

There seems to be no provisi on, however, for adolescents who have come into conflict with the law and who need psychiatric care. This poses a grave problem for our judge s who find there is no place where they can recommend treatment for these adolescents. The whole field of psychiatric care seems to have had a very low priority with this government. If this were not so, then why would the Selkirk Mental Hospital lose its accreditation ; a mental hospital that once was acclaimed as one of the best in the country, a hospital in which many a psychiatrist received his training.

There seems to be a se rious deficiency in this field. It was a great disappo intment, Mr. Chairman, that the Min ister co1.1ld not answer the questions that I asked on community cli nics. We have eleven community clini cs in Manitoba, and it is obvious that the Minis ter has never evaluated them. I know the Min ister inherited these from his predecessors, but he stated that he would gi ve cons ideration to more cli nics of this type if he was asked to do so. This, Mr. Chairman, without any evaluatio n .

Other provinces who tried this concept have phased out community cli nics because the cost does not justify their existence. Saskatchewan had twenty-six and then phased out all of these except for two. Why do we insist on continu ing programs that obviously are not practical and do not justify the Is it expenditure? because this government, rather than acknowledging mistakes, contin ues impractical programs? The Minis ter stated that there was a 19 percent increase in senior citizens over the age of 65 in the 12 89

Monda y,March 28, 19 77 last ten years. He also stated by the year 2000 one in five persons would be over the age of 65 in Manitoba. This poses some very serious problems and requires long range planning immediat ely. We know that many of the problems we have today are because of a lack of housing for senior citiz ens. The Min ister talked of enriched senior citizens' homes and I agree there is a great necessity for this. I hope that immed iate attention will be gi ven to this problem and a long range program developed.

If we do not proceed with creating more housing and alternate facilities, then our problems will rapidly worsen. That is, free comprehensive universal medicine and person care programs with absolutely no space avai lable. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJARDINS: Well, Mr. Chai rman, I was bracing myself for quite a rebuttal of criticism of my Estimates.

I'm di sappointed in a way because I don't think my honourable friend paid attention while we were going through the Estimates, either that or somebody gave him some notes that he had prepared before the Esti mates and even though we've covered that in the Estim ates he decided that he would make his final speech anyway. Now, my honourable friend seemed to be criticizing the amount of money that we spend but I don't know, all through my Estimates the members of his party and himself have never critici zed one program - that has been a change - but not one program that we should abandon, not one.

It was more this, more this, even in day care. It was more of everything. There is not one that my honourable friend stood up - or anybody across - and said, "Don't have that program." Well, Mr. Chairman, if there is going to be serious criticism of a department of the money spent, I think that the least that the party could do, the critic of the Estima tes should point out and say, 'This you shouldn't do," and this wasn't done. Now I will not accept again these general statements as my honourable friend so often wishes to make. I've challenged him on another occasion before and I'll challenge him again.

He has said there was personal care, no beds. That is a ridiculous statement. There is over 7,000 beds. I explained to my honourable friend, I gave him the figure that there were more personal care beds herethan in Alberta and Ontario. I have told him that. I have also announced last year a five-year program for the beds that will put another 700 beds or so. I've told him that. I've told him that we are negotiating and we might have more facil ities at Deer Lodge. He knows that, he supported me in that, and he's saying that there's no beds.

I also stated that, yes, there were some people in the hospitals that were in acute beds that could be in personal care beds. I admit ted that last year, and I could not build a bed from one day to the next. I'm saying that this is not new. I'm saying that ...

I have clippings that I can bring and show my honourable friend that the same thing, the same speec h, you could make it every year, and it's a good thing you can make that speech, because the minute that you stop making the speech it means you have no control, it means that you are spending all kinds of money, there is no breaks, nothing, and it means that some people will generate more revenue by probably putting more people through there. I am not saying that we could not use more beds, and I'm doing everything possi ble to do that, and my honourable friend knows. I to ld him last year what should be done.

But just two years ago my same friends were saying there were not enough acute beds. And my honourable friend, if he's going to be honest, has got to remember that the way this was practically imposed on us because of the costsharing formula with Ottawa. The cost-sharing was only on acute beds. My honourable friend must remember that in a province where the Conservatives form the government, in Ontario, the Min ister had to go around and close beds - and they haven't got more beds than us- close beds. So I'm saying if my honourable friend agrees with me, let him say it.

I know that there are many areas that I was fairly weak, that we haven't been doing enough, and we tried to rectify it. We've announced what we're going to do and try to do and so on, but that should be recogn ized. I'll be the first one to admit that, and I would like to receive some constructive critici sm. But this is not constructive criticism and not as strongly - I guess he's afraid that I'm going to challenge agai n - butthis question seemed to insin uate there has been interference in the health field, and that I say is poppycock. That is nottrue again. I repeat, again, this is not the case at all.

There is more - I repeat more - di scussion and dialog uing with people in paramed ical and in the medic al profession and the nursing profession than ever before, in many times more, many ti mes more. Well, you might not believe it but you don't take the trouble of finding out, because I could substantiate that. I can gi ve you all the facts. It is true that at certain times ... there is a strike going on in Transcona, the people are not very happy with that.

There has been other areas, and when the fee sched ule came up last year there was some difficu lty and there was di fficulty with the bus drivers, and there was di fficulty with a lot of people, and that's the only place when we were talking about fees. And it's bound to be. There has always been that fear of what will happen, because that is what the government wants. I've repeated many ti mes certain statement of what I felt, the relationship of the medic al profession and other professions, and I tried to make it quite clear that there was no ide a of trying to control them at all.

Now the clin ics, my honourable friend is very di sappoi nted because I could not tell him how much was spent in the clin ic. I can tell him, I can give him the budget of the clin ic, I've offered that, I gave 129 0

Monday,Mar eh 28, 19 77 him that, but that's not what he wants. He wants to make a comparison. Well, if we want to make a comparison we would have to take the private clini c also and make a comparison; and my honourable friend has not seen - I think he's seen one clini c and he's making statements like an expert - the least he could do is go and see a few of those clin ics. Does he know what it's all about? Does he want me to close the Churchill clin ic? Would you like me to close that Churchill clini c? No.

Would you like me to close it? -(l nterjection)- All right, but you made a stateme ntthat weshould close ... Would you want me to close the Churchill clin ic? The Leaf Rapids clin ic? Now how can you firid out whatthe cost is, if they weren't there, what would you do if they have no facil ities like Lac du Bonnet and so on. These people would have to be transferred here.

That is where we had problems with the PAT Program because it was exaggerated, more people used it because the facil ities weren't there, and I want to build the north and build the area instead of having an ai rlift to Winnipeg and bring the people to Winn ipeg . And that is not the way to do it. We've had a good di scussion. I guess we all made a few statements that were partisan, but I think in general in my years in the House, espec ially before an election the debate has been less partisan and I don't want to introduce it at this time.

I think that there's a lot of programs that we made, so I'll refrain from that. Now, I said that I wou Id try to gi ve you some information and try to answer you questions re the lotteries, and you have in front of you a set of fig ures. The first one is to try to gi ve you - and this is not audited, I tried to get this to the best of my abili ty to certainly gi ve you some information and comparison, if you wish. I'm very happy.

We had an extremely difficult year last year, there was no backing includin g the press, where there were a lot of di fficulties on this, that everybody was attacking us because we were trying to get - (I nterjection)- Oh, I'm sure we'll have time this evening, I'm not trying to ram this down your throat. I want you to look at it and if there's any questions. The first chart you'll see in the middle of the page right after Total Expend iture, you'll have Net Reve nue from Ticket Sales, and the Estimates for 19 76-77 is quite high. As I said, it is a difficult situation now.

You have so many lotteries where at one time there was only one, and the Corporation "A" or total community involvement is not involved in that. That's the Go lden Sweepstakes, they're running their own affair. They keep all the money. There is no money going to government. The Manitoba Sports Federation with the Sports Toto is doing the same thing. Then the Corporation "A" or the Western Lottery-Manitoba Distrib utor, Inc.? There's a partnership that will get some revenue also, and this is the revenue that you should have in 19 76-77. The Loto Canada, we shOLJld get a few dollars out of that.

That's not in there at all. Now the second sheet is to gi ve you an ideaof the transferof funds over the year. Now I think that's self-explanatory. You will see that there is balance of the year' it is estimated that we should have - in a few days - it should be a little over $2 milli on and that will be transferred from the Manitoba Lottery Commission to the Special Fund and then divided, and my department will get 25 percent of that. The last page is to gi ve you an idea of the lottery this year. I've tried to make it as comprehensi ve as possible, to giv e you the information.

I feel that it was a tough fight and I know that there was a lot of ridicule last year, some of the members of the press were not too helpful. I am convinc ed that we did the right thing' we've got a bigger share. Fi rst of all I've seen so much greed in this, I can tel l you now that if there was a vote - if we had to review and I was a supporter of this lottery I'd vote agai nst it, to be honest with you. Then I think it's a shame the way that we've multip lied lotteries all over the place.

We have to keep up and now it's not winning $1 00,000, it's milli ons of dol lars and so on; all across you have you have a battle going with the Provincial lottery and the Federal Government and so on, so it is a very di fficult thing. We've tried to get a steady income. Even with our partners in the Western Canada Lottery Foundation it's been tough because there's been less direction from the provinc es and everybody. The corporation wants to make money at all costs, no matter what. Now we've resisted that.

We might have been even more successfu l - but we haven't - and I'm talking about those under the Manitoba Lottery Commission now. We have accountabil ity which we di dn't have before. We have a larger share going to the Provinci al Government and to the partners, and I can say that they've had enquiries in different provinces, for instance, Quebec had an enquiry and exactly what I prophesized here last year happened .

They've had a di strict, a middle man made up to $900,000; and there was a ki ckback in the study, then there was a kic kback per di strict of $5,000 to the Li beral Party, the then party in power in Quebec and this is a kic kback on donations. And we can't have this here because there has been no politic ian in this ata ll.- (lnterjection)- 1 beg your pardon? Well maybe it was money down the drain, I don't know. This is why it wasn't very popular at one time. We have got a lot of work to do, to keep on doing in this but we hope that -(l nterjection)- Beg your pardon? Eh? That's right. That's right.

And I can say that the government is getting away from that as much as possible, that the $5 tick et, I have an announcement that I will make that we are working with the Western Canada Lottery di stributor, that they will run that and they will get more of the funds on that and the government will be out of that too, probably retroactive to January 1 st. And they will run the lottery and the government will be less 12 91

Monday,March 28, 19 77 involved but we certainly will monitor it to see that the policies are continued and that we need full accountability. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Hon ourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HEND ERSON: Mr. Chairman, I am very glad to hearthat a Minis ter admits that they are going to get out of the lotteries. I wish to heck they had never been into them. I am glad that I kept my stand all the way through and I don't believe in running lotteries, taking money away from local organizations to be spread around wherever governments like to spread it for political advantage.

I would like to make a few remarks just before closi ng about the way the Min ister and his department has handled the care home out at Manitou . I think it has been very very bad because they met there earlier on and they told those people that they were going to get a home - that's before the present Minis ter was in - and those people out there went out and worked hard, done everything that was necessary to get the home. Then later on they started to change their policy.

The Min ister or his officials di dn't have the guts, we could say, to go out there and tell those people that they weren't going to gi ve them the home. They sent out of a couple of girls that were just told to gi ve certain answers which was just a way of sayi ng that it is not goi ng to happen and the government can't come out and face you on it.

Now Manitou has moved a way back and these older people that worked hard, done so much, were even going ahead and raising money locally, are left very very di sappoi nted and they think that the government handled it very badly because if they had to be di sappoi nted, they would have been far better off if they had been disappoi nted right on the fi rst. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 65. The Honourable Mem ber for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, to deal with the lotteries it will take a little time for us to dige st this statement that the Min ister presented. I wish he could have gi ven it to us on Friday.

We would have had a chance to review the thing and come up with some details. But I have a few questions, Mr. Chairman, that I would like to raise to the Min ister at this time regardi ng fi rst of all the .... MR. CHAIRMAN: You have 40 seconds with which to raise those questions. MR. McKENZI E: Well, do you want to call it 4:30, Mr. Chairman, or do you want me to carry on? MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour being 4:30, according to Rule 19 (2) of our House Rules, I am leaving the Chair to return at 8 p.m. th is evening. 12 92

I THE LEG ISLATIVE AS SEM BLY of MANITOBA Monday, March 28, 19 77 PRIVATE MEMBE RS' HOUR MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Private Members' Hour. Fi rst item is Private Members' Resolutions. Reso lution No. 12. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. (Stand) RESOLU TION NO. 8 MR. SPEAKER: Reso lution No. 8 by the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. The Honourable Member for Lakeside has fifteen minutes. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I am happy to see the return to the House of our blackbird Socialis t, as he likes to call other members from time to time, and obviously it was on my mind as I began to address the Chair, Mr.

Speaker, because there was a particular comment tht that I wanted to pass on to my honourable friend, the Min ister of Min es and Natural Resou rces, on this question having to do with the convenient and very appropriate change of position by his government and by his Min ister of Agriculture with respect to the land-lease program which is now, Sir, being called the land purchase program.

And of course my honourable friend, the Member for Portage la Prairie likes to thrash out on all sides of this question , sugge sts that the Honourable Members of the Official Opposition have only belatedly come to grips with this matter and any chastisement on our part of the present government for not doing what was sug gested on this side of the House in its first instance and expressing some lack of enthusiasm for his resolution before us as being opposed to the government's position , or the government's new position in this election year on the question of the government purchasing of lands. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if I recall, I started out my few comments on this resolution in the last week or the last time this resolution was before the House by pointing out to honourable members opposite how under ti mes of stress or particularly when election day comes closer and closer at hand, then in fact the members opposite are well aware that certain Social ist principles have to be bent somewhat in order to make their position more acceptable to the electorate. I believe, Mr.

Speaker, I ind icated at that time or drew the attention of the members of the House at that time to a subject that was current at that time last week or a few days ea rlier to that, how the Labour government in Eng land for instance, in Great Britian, was in fact very very astutely demonstrating that capacity that Socialist friends had to adopt quite frankly in a free and open socie ty and in a democratic soci ety because Socialism of course simply isn't compatible with freedom as most Manitobans know it and simply isn't acceptable to the majority of most Manitobans.

And that statement, Sir, that I have made in this House in 19 69, in 19 70, and every year hence and I will conti nue to make it, and my honourable friends opposite only reinforce that statement, that posi tion, by doing what their First Min ister had told them they would have to do from time to time, particu larly as they approach an election, that is that they would have to bend their princi ples. And l ind icated, Mr.

Speaker, in those few remarks that the truth of the matter, and that of course is something that they cannot at this late day in the game hide to the electorate, that they do not believe in what they are currently doing. They do not believe in gi ving back to private ownership a valuable resource which they consider should be in the hands of the public at large through the duly-elected government. They simply do not belie ve it. I know that the Min ister of Min es and Natural Resou rces does not believe it. Of course they di splay a unique kind of balance on this very question even today.

For instance while it is political ly unacceptable for the gove rnment to be getting more and more land into public ownership and so therefore have made this change as announced by the Mini ster of Agriculture, they are sti ll not prepared to do it in the north.

In the north where I and other members of the Land Committee sat in Thompson, the request from so many about the possibi lity of freeing up and returning and providing title to land, to either long term land residents, to business entrepeneurs who want to establish businesses and who find it di fficult from time to time, not impossi ble but di fficult from time to time, to arrange for the kind of financing that is necessary to establish busi nesses and so often that financing is encu mbent upon having title to land in order to get access to the moneylenders of this province or of this country to enable that business to flourish.

However I would ask the question. I can we ll remember and the recorded transcripts of the day will underline it, the Min ister of Mi nes and Natural Resources particularly made it very clear that there would be no relaxation at all of any Crown lands currently held by the Crown in the north reverting to private ownership. Well, you see, Mr. Speaker, up north although that question is of concern to a number of people, it is not a major political question as it is down south.

So down south the same Min ister, the same government, is prepared to, on the eve of an election, change a basic policy to acknowledge what I and other members of the opposition have been telling him. Down south it is still very much a matter of concern to the majority of farmers in particular and, Mr. Speaker, I sugge st, as many non-farmers as well. It is simply not acceptable, other than for specifi ed , needed government projects such as highways, drainage ditches, schools or other public projects. It is simply not acceptable to have the 12 93

Monday.March 28, 19 77 government in the business of buying up land. I make that as a flat statement and I believe what the Min ister of Agriculture has done is he has demonstrated his acceptance of that fact by changing and even calling the program by a diffe rent name. It is no longer called the land-lease program. It is now called the lease-purchase prog ram. So, Mr. Speaker, I suppose and I think I ind icated to the Honourable Min ister at the time that I should be somewhat flattered by that posit ion.

I also tell the Honourable Min ister and the government that it is too late because the true colours, the true colours of his government, are evident to too many, are evident to many. And while I have the Honourable Min ister of Mi nes and Natural Resou rces in his seat, I will remind him of a statement that he made that I will try to recall without the benefit of Hansard, that in a previous debate dating back possibly some three sessions ago .... You see, Mr.

Speaker, I can appreciate and I can acknowledge that the position that the honourable members have and in fact hold truly when caught in a less sensitive time of electioneeri ng, when they are prepared to state their position on such basic and fundamental things as the public vs. the private sector. For instance, I can respect and I can understand fully the major criticism that this government has always had of the forestry complex in The Pas.

The di fferences have not been on the question of the conception of the program or in its need or in its viab ility, even although that might have been questioned at one ti me. The singl e big gest di fference that separates us from them is simpl y that if upwards to a 10 0 percent of the money is necessary to begin the venture, then surely the public should retain the control and the ownership of the venture. That is a position that has some integrity, a position that can be understood by people. It can be understood by myself.

I suggest it can be equally well understood that if a project requires necessary ski ll in a highl y competitive industry, in an industry that the number one requirement (

A) is to have the necessary expertise of producing the product; and (8) to marketing it around the world, it is necessary to have those entrepreneurial skill s that today only the private sector can sati sfactorily produce. So I make no apolog ies for the fact that yes, a previous administration went into an operation largely funded by public money, because I will say to this day that if the private entrepreneur were running that corporation, it would not be running $6 milli on in the black. It would not be running $6 mil lion in the black. -(Interjec tion)- Well, the Min ister says it is ridiculous.

But that is not really what I wanted to say because I can recall in the ongoing debate about that question, having asked the Honourable Mi nister of Mi nes and Natural Resou rces at one time that that theory and that understandable position from my Social ist friends opposite certainly should also apply to an operation like Simplot.

For instance, if the largest amount of public money went into the setting up of the fertilizer plant in Brandon, no matter whether or not that plant paid it back, as they in fact have in advance of time, that by carrying over that same argume nt, the Simplot plant should today be run as a public ly-owned Crown corporation . And then, Mr.

Speaker, I also remember getting up and asking the questio n, "And why would they need to differentiate if the public is prepared to put up $1 00,000, $200,000 to set up a viable economic farm unit, buy the land forth at farmer, set him up on that farm - and then you are going to gi ve it back to him? That is where your credibili ty backs down because there isn't a single man herethat has some credibil ity and some concern about his personal integrity, who can tell me that they in fact would be prepared to do that. And that, Mr. Speaker, is what the farmers of Manitoba understand.

That is what the people of Manitoba understand, that it is posturing, it is electioneering posturing on your part now to sugge st that you believe in the private ownership of farm land. You do not believe in it and you are not prepared to put into the hands of an indi vidual farmer $1 00,000, $1 50,000, or $200,000 and then on very gratuitous terms, allow him to reap the rewards, the benefit of that, having set him up in business. No more so than they were prepared to do it for Simplot, no more so than they were prepared to do it for CFI. Now all I am asking, Mr.

Speaker, is for the honourable gentle man not to insult us in terms of our conception of their approach to things. We know their approach. Also, do not accuse us of scare tactics or of electioneering when we have to underline the basic and fundamental di fferences that differentiate the honourable gentlemen opposite from ourselves. Sir, we believe very, very deeply that it is a fundamental fact of life that i

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-28a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 28a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	c7b04226f4680e2b11924f636bffb05069d84d79

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