LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 25 August, 1986. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presen ting Reports by Standing and Specia l Committees . . . Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR. F. JOHNSTON introduced, by leave, Bill No. 55,

An Act to incorporate The Royal Winnipeg Rifles Foundation; Loi constituant en corporation "The Royal Winnipeg Rifles Foundation." ORAL QUESTIONS MTS - PUNR, calling of re MTX MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Oppo sition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System. It's my understanding that representatives of the government and/or the Crown corporations involved are unable to meet in committee tomorrow morning.

I wonder if he can indicate whether or not the Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will be sitting tomorrow evening from 8:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. to deal with the MTS-MTX report. MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mini ster responsible for MTS. HON. A. MA CKUNG: Madam Speaker, in those matters of arrangements for committees, I defer to the House Leader. MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Madam Speaker, I had a brief conversation with the Opposition House Leader on Friday afternoon, at which time he indicated that they did not propose a meeting on Tuesday morning, but would rather have a meeting of the committee on Tuesday evening. - (I nterjection) - Well, whate ver. The Opposition House Leader is now saying that they have proposed Tuesday morning and that we didn't want Tuesday morning. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. HON. J. COWAN: All I'm telling you is that in the meeting in the early afternoon with the House Leader, he 3293 suggested Tuesday evening.

I told him I would take that under advisement. It is not our intention to have a meeting of the Public Utilities Committee on Tuesday morning, nor is it our intention at this time to have a meeting of the Public Utilities Committee on Tuesday evening. However, I would like an opportunity to discuss this further with the Opposition House Leader to determine when a mutually agreeable time might be for that particular meeting.

As you are aware and as we've indicated in the past, we have tried to work, whenever possible, on a consultative basis and in cooperation to set those meetings so that they fell in a time period which was mutually acceptable. We've been able to do so in most instances. I'm certain that we'll be able to continue to do so with those discussions this afternoon. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that a perusal of the prelimina ry transcript of question period on Friday clearly indicates that, on the record, the Member for Pembina stated a willing ness on our part to meet on Tuesday morning, and in view of the fact that, in my understanding, was not convenient for either the government or the Crown corporations involved, can the Go vernment House Leader now indicate what time has been allotted for the next meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources with respect to the MTS-MTX report? HON. J.

COWAN: No time at the present time has been all oca ted . I will enter into discussions with th e Opposition House Leader and the Member for Pembina, if required, this afte rnoon to determine when a mutually agreeable time might be determined. If in fact we can determine a mutually agreeable time, that would be the time of the comm ittee. If we can't, then it is always and has always been th e prerogative of the government's side of the House to call the committees, and we will call it at a time that is suitable. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, I wonder if I could ask the Government House Leader whether or not tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. is convenient for the government. HON. J. COW AN: I have alr eady stated that Tuesday is not agreeable to us, either in the morning or in the afternoon.

I have also alr eady stated that in the past when there were occasions as to a difference of opinion as to when the com mittee should be held, the Opposition House Leader and the critic responsible for that particular area have met with myself and sometimes the Minister responsible for that particular area to determine a mutually satisfactory time. We asked on Thursday or on Friday, we sugg ested there be a meeting Friday afternoon. The Opposition said that meeting was not acceptable to them. They've

Monday, 25 August , 1986 asked for Tuesday. We've indicated that is not a date that is acceptable to us. In the past, we have suggested meetings in this House that were not acceptable to the Opposition because their critic was not going to be here for whatever reason. We, in those instances, said that is fine, we will have the meeting deferred to a later date so that the critic can be present. We have done that out of a spirit of cooperation and attempting to find suitable times.

If, in the event, that is not possible, then it is up to the government side of the House to determine when the comm ittee will be held, and we will make that decision at that time. However, I don't want to pre-empt the discussions or prejudge the discussions. I look forward to discussions with the Opposition House Leader and the critic, if necessar y, this afternoon in order to determine if there is a satisfactory time. MR. G.

FILMON: Ma dam Speaker, again to the Government House Leader, in view of the fact that Tuesday morning or Tuesday evening is not acceptable to the government, is Wednesday morning or Thursday morning accept able to the government? HON. J. COWAN: It appears to be somewhat difficult for the Leader of the Opposition to understand what is being said to him. I am prepared to meet with the Opposition House Leader and the critic, if required, after the que stion per iod to determ ine when a satisfactory date might be scheduled.

That is how we have operated in the past and notwithstanding his maneuvering of this afternoon, that is how we will continue to operate. If in fact it is not possible for a date to be mutually agreed upon at that lime, then it will up to the government side of the House to determine when a date of that meeting will be scheduled and I will announce it accordingly . MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , it appears to be that the Government House Leader doesn't want to recogn ize that we would like to have the committee meet as soon as possible and are prepared to give a variety of different opportunities.

My question to the Government House Leader then is: what dates at this point in time are acceptable to the government so that we can proceed with organizing our timetable for this week to ensure that we know that there will be an opportunity this week to have a comm ittee meeting on MTS-MTX? HON. J.

COWAN: It shouldn't be necessary to remind the Leader of the Opposition that when his critic, for this particular commi ttee, was un able to attend meetings, we on this side, in the cooperative fashion in which we have become accustomed to working with the Opposition, deferred those comm ittee meetings so that individual could be present.

I remember the impa ssioned plea by the Opposition House Leader when it was suggested that we would have a meeting - I believe it was on a Tuesday - and the critic would not be available on Tuesday and he rose on his feet on a matter of privilege and he said we can't have that because these meetings have to be scheduled so that they can accommoda te members who wish to attend them.

All we are saying on this side is that we are prepared to continue the cooperative process which we have developed, notwithstanding the meanderings and the maneuverings of the Leader of the Opposition today to try to pre-empt that process, that we are prepared to attempt to continue that process whenever possible. If it is not possible, then the government side of the House will have to determine when that committee will be held. That's our responsibility.

But I would suggest rather than him running through a litany, day after day after day in the question period, he allow his House leader, who I assume he has confidence in, and his critic, who has shown himself to be most interested in this area and probably more knowledgeable than anyone else in that side in this area, to meet with the Minister responsible and myself to determine when a satisfactory date of meeting of the committee can be scheduled. If that's not possible, as has always been the case in the past, the government side of the House will determine when that committee should be held.

But I must tell members opposite as well that there is other business of this Legislature that has to be attended to. There are matters of much more importance to the general public in respect to the economy, in respect to The Farm Act, in respect to The Trade Practices Act, in respect to the type of legislation which we are bringing forward to benefit Manitobans, that must be dealt with as well. MTS -venture capital proposal re MTX MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, me thinks the Minister doth protest too loud ly.

My question for the Minister responsible for the Telephone System is: does he have knowledge of a venture capital proposal which is in the final stages of approval, in which MTX is prop osed to be an investor? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Min ister responsible for MTS. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I would be happy to inform the House more fully; if the honourable member can give me some details, I will certainly provide the answer. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, is the Minister indicating that he is not familiar with, has not been briefed on any matter to do with a venture capital proposal in which MTX is propo sed to be a partner? HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, the Manitoba Telephon e System is a corporation with 4,500 empl oyees. It has very extensive operations and I do not pretend to be conversant with every matter tha t is under th eir consideration at any time. If the honourable member would give me some detail, I'll certainly be prepared to look at those matters and give a fuller response. MR. G.

FILMON: My question is for the Minister of Business Development and Tourism. I wonder if she could indicate whether or not she has knowledge of a venture capital proposal which is 3294

Monday, 25 August, 1986 being prepared, in which MTX is proposed to be an investor. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Business Development. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Madam Speaker, I'd be glad to take that question as notice and provide information to the members opposite when I receive it. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please , order please . Order please. MTX - access to offices MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you , Madam Speaker .

My question further to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System is: on August 14, he announced the suspension and removal of Don Plunkett as President of MTX , does he continue to have access to MTX offices and is he one of the people who has been issued one of the new keys subject to the changing of the locks? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable M inister responsible for MTS . HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition should recall that Mr. Charles Curtis , the Deputy Minister of Finance , was named Acting Chief Executive Officer for MTX. Mr.

Plunkett was not suspended or discharged or removed from office . Mr. Curtis has been placed in charge pending the full audit and all of the investigations which we deem necessary in order that we know and can be assured as to what actions this government might take to provide effective management and to deal with those concerns that have been raised in the committee and in this House . In respect to the changes of locks in respect to MTS , it's part of their ongoing security operations. It started some years ago .

In respect to the concerns about MTX, the honourable member will recall that I announced in the House my concerns about protection of documents and those measures were taken to ensure protection of all the documents availability for the ACM P and the management audit. MTX - re Mr. Plunkett MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , given that Mr. Curtis has been named the Acting Chief Executive Officer replacing Mr. Plunkett in that role, what responsibilities , if any, does Mr.

Plunkett continue to have, and does he continue to have access to the corporate offices in which he was located in view of the fact that he has been replaced by Mr. Curtis in that capacity? HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker , the former CEO, Mr. Plunkett , will be assisting in providing Mr. Curtis with every assistance to ensure the directions that we have set for MTX , including a suspension of any new contractual invo lvements wher e th ere is not existing ongoing responsibility , is carried out. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, does that mean Mr.

Plunkett continues in his role and function , but merely reports now to Mr. Curtis - is that the way it works? HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker , in answer to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition 's question , it means that Mr. Curtis will be making the decisions on behalf of the MTX Board, that Mr. Plunkett will assist Mr. Curtis in any information necessary to effect that decis ion -making proc ess. MTX - suspension of activities MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, the suspension of additional activities , or a suspension of act iviti es with respect to MTX , can the Minister tell us, does this mean that MTX will not continue to develop certain projects such as the Line 1 system that they are currently working on? Wh at is entail ed by this suspension of activities ? HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker , in response to the question of the Leader of the Opposition, it is our concern that there be no new initiatives undertaken by MTX pend ing the management audit.

Where there are ongoing initiatives involving responsibility for completing undertakings , that matter certainly can proceed afte r review by Mr. Curtis and the board . MTX - shredding of documents MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina . MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System . Can the Minister assure the House that since the tabling of the sworn affidavit by Mr. Ferguson, that there has been no shredding of documents over at the MTX offices? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for MTS . HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker, as the honourable member well knows , I indicated concern in respect to preservation of documentation the same day that I announced that the RCMP were being involved in investigating the allegat ions contained in the Fergu son affidavit . There is a legitimate concern that in order that the RCMP may be ensured of having made availab le to it all documentation, that all docments be protected . I'm advised that those measures have ensured the protect ion of all available documentation .

I'm further advised that the MTX shredder - and there was a separate shredder apparently - is und er lock and key and has not been used. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . 3295

Monday, 25 August, 1986 The . Ho nour able Member for Pembina with a supplement ary. MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Spea ker, a supplemen tary. Could the Minister responsible indicate to the House which official of MTX has given him that assurance that all documents are now secured and - (Interjection) - none have been shredded? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister responsible for MTS. HON. A. MA CKLING: Madam Speake r, I commun icated with the Chairperson of the MTS Board and my concern for the protection of documentation and I was assured that those steps were taken.

I'm satisfied that all of the documentation is being protected to ensure that the RCM P and the management on it will have those documents available to them. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina with a final supplement ary. MTX - re Mr. Plunkett MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker , I have a new question for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System. Given the suspension of Mr. Plunk ett as the Chief Executive Officer on the 14 th of August, would the Minister undertake to inquire of Mr.

Plunk ett whether in fact he was present at the MTX offices in the Trizec Building on Sun day, August 17 , from approxima tely 10:00 in the morning until 3:00 in the afternoon and determine for Mr. Plun kett what was the nature of his time spent in the office on August 17 after he was suspended as Chief Executive Officer? HON. A. MA CKLING: Madam Speaker, I will make inquiry of Mr . Curtis to determine what, if any, involvement or what knowledge he has of that matter and will respond in due course. MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Pembina with a supplement ary. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speak er, would the Minister as well inqu ire of Mr. Plunkett, who was removed as Chief Executiv e Officer, as to whether in fact he was at the office on the 17 th, three days after his removal on a Sunday from 10:00 until 3:00 in the afternoon and what the purpose? Will he ask Mr. Plunk ett that, not Mr. Curtis who wasn't there? HON. A. MA CKLING: Madam Speaker, I will ask those questions. I would like to point out that I am certain that Mr.

Curtis, in wanting to be able to be apprised of all of the involvements and all of the undertakings of MTX, would want to be fully briefed and I'm certain that Mr. Curtis will be able to give me that information. Cadillac Fairview Development re leased space MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Ellice. MR. H. SMITH: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Urban Affairs. I have recently found out that the North Portage Dev elopment, that Ca dill ac Fairview ha s given preference to national chains in renting space over local firms.

I would like to ask the Minister, is he aware of this? If so, what is he willing to do about it? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. I have not recognized the Minister yet with an an swer, and may I remind honourable members that it's not appreciated to have reflections on the Chair from members made from their seats. In fact, with the noise in the Cham ber, I did not hear the last part of the member's question and, as he well knows, asking a Minister whether he is aware of a situation or not is not a proper question.

Could the honourable member please rephra se his question and repeat the final part of his question? MR. H. SMITH: Madam Speaker , my question is: what is the Minister prepared to do to give local businessmen an equal opportunity to make money as operating leased space in the Cadillac Fairview Development as national chains? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. MR. G. DOER: Thank you, Madam Speaker , and I thank the member for the question.

At present, approximately 50 percent of the Cadillac Fairview Development on North Portage has been rented; 15 percent of that has gone through leasing arrangements to local business. The North Portage Board, working with Cadillac Fairview, has asked for a mix between national and local chains. There is no preferential rate, obvious ly, for national chains. It's the same rate for both national and local business. We are attempting to encourage as much as possible the mai nten ance of tha t mix in th e Nor th Portage development.

International Sports Exchange - re bingo licences MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. J. ERNST: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister responsible for Lotteries. Could the Minister advise the house if the International Sports Exchange has a bingo licence operating at the Italian Union Club, 430 Selkirk Avenue? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mini ster responsible for Lotteries. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you, Ma da m Speaker. 3296

Monday, 25 August, 1986 Yes, it's my understanding that the International Sports Exchange is lic ensed to run a lottery game. I will get more information pertaining to the particular licence and get back to the member. MR. J. ERNST: Perhaps the Minister can advise, then, Madam Speaker, if this organization has been under investigation by the government since September of 19 85? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: I cannot say at this point if the International Spor ts Exchange has been under investigation since 19 85.

Since I became the Minister responsible, we have had a numb er of complaints and we are now looking into the situation and doing a thorough audit. MR. J. ERNST: Has the Minister been advised of any alleged misuse of bingo funds or funds used for personal use in this regard? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: No. 1985 Ombudsman's Report re road construction MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My qu estion is to the Min ister of Hig hways and Transportation.

Madam Speaker, the 1985 Annual Report of the Ombudsman indicates that the government had to pay to a construction firm $86,0 12, because departmental officials had led the firm into believing that a road was going to be built in Northern Manitoba. My question to the Minister is: when was he made aware that this situation existed in his department? MADAM SPEAK ER: The Hon ourable Mini ster of Highways and Transportation. HON. J. PLOHMAN: It was very difficult to hear the member, Madam Speaker. I think he was asking whether I was aware that this situation did exist.

I'v e been aware of this situation since I took responsibility for this portfolio. As a matter of fact, the previous Minister had asked the Ombudsman to look at the situation that had been perpetrated by the former Conservative Government in this province. As part of their across-t he-board and callous treatment of work that was programmed by the previous New Democratic Government in this province, there were a lot of projects that were cancelled. In this case, there was a - (I nterjection) - hospitals.

The Member for Flin Flon is fully aware of what happ ened in Flin Flon and fully aware of what happened in Dauphin, where these plans were put on hold for many years. I can say, insofar as this is concerned, Madam Speaker, the contract was let by the new administration, the Lyon Government, and then cancelled before being awarded. That's where the problems arose and it has been dealt with. MR. D.

ROCAN: Madam Speaker, a supplementary to the same Minister. 3297 Can the Minister confirm that the Ombudsman made a recom mendation to Cabin et on February 23, 1984, encouraging the government to begin negotiations with the company in order to obtain a mutually satisfactory agreement regarding compensation? MADAM SPEAKER: May I remind the honourable member that it is a member's duty to ascertain the truth of a statement that he brings before the House. The Honourable Member for Gladstone. CRISP re social assistance payments MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

My question is to the Minister of Emplo yment Services and Economic Security . Is it the policy of his department to require CRISP payments to be deducted from social assistance payments? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Economic Security. HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker , that is a policy that has been in existence for many years. MRS. C. OLESON: In view of the fact that the City of Winnipeg social assistance allows these payments to be exempted, will the government stop penalizing low­ income families and allow similar exemptions? HON. L.

EVANS: Madam Speaker , I would remind the honour able member, when I said this is a policy that has been in existence for many years, it pre-dates our government and goes back to the Lyon years when tha t same policy was in effect. Un der the Lyon Government, the Lyon Government deducted the CRISP payments as well. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. HON. L. EVANS: I would say, Madam Speaker, that we have a very generous social security program in Manitoba which com pares favourably right across the count ry.

With regard to the specific question, I'll take the honourable member's question as a suggestion and we will consider it for some future action. Manitoba homes - radon gas MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Nia kwa. MR. A. KOV NATS: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I would pose my question to the Honourable Minister of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health. As many as 12 percent of homes in the United States may contain unhealthy levels of radioactive radon gas. Can the Honourable Minister advise the amount of

Monday, 25 August , 1986 homes in Manitoba that contain unhealthy levels of radon gas? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minister of the Environment. HON. E. LECUYER: Thank you, Madam Speake r. I don't have that kind of specific information. A year or so ago, I was made aware, as everyone else in Manitoba, of a federal study across the count ry, which originated with a study in the mining areas, more specifical ly, where housing projects were built up clos e to slag from mining ope rations, especially uranium.

Following that study, the federal department cond ucted a very limited sampling in a num ber of cities across Canada. That gave rise to a num ber of questions. The Federal Government has indicated that it would follow up to substantiate or verify this particular study , but we have received no update report on that particular study at this point in time. MR. A. KOV NATS: To the same Minister, Madam Speaker, does the province have a system of monitoring radon gas levels and what is considered a safe level? HON. E.

LECUYER: We have no system of monitoring radon gas, which perhaps the member should be aware of, is a naturally occurring substance in soil. It varies from one location to another, just like mercury or radiation in un derground water and many othe r substances which naturally occur in the soil. At this point in time, there is no established safe level guideline anywhere in Canada. MR. A. KOV NATS: To the same Minister, a final supplementary question, Madam Speaker.

Does the Province of Manitoba have any building code to take into account the protection against unsafe levels of radon gas, and what is being done to correct situations in olde r homes and older buildings? HON. E. LECUYER: The only information that we were able to glean from that report, Madam Speaker, was that the levels of radon gas anywhere in Manitoba were not of a level which one should consider serious. There are a num ber of measures that an individual can undertake to seal cracks in concrete where the radon gas seeps through; and it is up to each individual to ensure that his basement is properly sealed.

At this point in time, Madam Speaker, we do not have the resources to conduct in-depth studies of the level of radon gas which would be very costly and, as a I said before, all indications are that this does not pose any significant health threat in Manitoba. Manfor Ltd.- financial affairs MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a question to the Minister responsible for Manfo r. To the Minister, Madam Speaker, the report of Manfor was com pleted several weeks ago.

At that time the Minister comm itted to give us an interim report of the financial affairs of Manfor; does the Minister now have that report ready? Manfor Ltd.- layoff of personnel MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister responsible for Ma nfor. HON. J. STORIE: No, Madam Speaker, but I will undertake to provide that before the week's end. MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, there was a massive layoff at Manfor. The question to the Minister is: why are there no supervisory staff laid off in the cutting part of the mill? Why is it only emp loyees who are below the level of supervisory capacity?

Why are no su pervisors laid off at the mill? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, I don't know where the honourable member is getting his information but I can indicate that, when the layoff is completely in effect, there will in fact only be three supervisory personnel and eight hourly empl oyees remaining; and in fact supervisory emplo yees will be laid off. MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, maybe the Minister could give us a little bit of prior information. What does the Minister anticipate on saving by the shutting down of the mill?

What is the savings to Manfor and what is their projected net loss for this year, com pared to last year? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Spe aker, I believe I'v e indicated on a previous occasion that the layoffs are not going to substantially change the projected deficit position of Ma nfor. I have recently spoken with the Chairman of the Board of Directors and the chief operating officer and can confirm today that the layoff is not anticipated to create any significant change from the projections that were relayed to comm ittee in Ju ly. MR. J.

DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, is the projected loss still in the neighbourhood of $12 million, for Ma nfor? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speake r, I believe at comm ittee it was indicated that the cash loss would be something like $5.2 million. If you add depreciation and interest costs, that it would be somewhere in the neighbourhood of $12 million; but the cash loss would be somewhere in the neighbourhood of $5.2 million. Jobs Fund - forgivable loans and grants MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister responsible for the Jobs Fund.

I think it was three weeks ago I indicated to him that the Jobs Fund Estimates would be coming along and 3298

Monday, 25 August, 1986 my House Leader informs me that they will be some time this week. I asked the Minister for a list of the grants and loans, or forgivable loans that have been issued by the Jobs Fund before the Estimates, and I wonde r if the Minister will be providing me with that information. MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister responsible for the Jobs Fund. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Madam Speake r. I will do my best to ensure that information will be obtained by the member prior to the Job s Fund Estima tes. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: I wonder if the Minister would unde rtake to, while he was giving me the list of the MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. MR. F. JOHNSTON: . . . loans and grants, etc., the projects and, if possi ble, how many people were emplo yed by them. HON. V. SCHROEDER: If I can get that information beforehand, I will do so. Brandon General Hospital - effect of cutback of beds MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speake r, my question is directed to the Minister of Employment Services and Economic Secur ity.

Since the announcement recently of the cutback of 31 beds at Brandon General Ho spital and the elimination of 25-30 jobs, I wonde r what the Minister and his department have done to cushion the impa ct in our commun ity of the loss of th ose jobs, the elimination of those jobs. MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister of Emp loyment Services. HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker, I'm pleased to report that the City of Brandon has a very healthy economic situation and its employment rate and unemployment rates compa re favourably with the rest of this province. Frank ly, there is no negative impact.

As a matter of fact, I understand that particular institution is still hiring people. MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speake r, I have a new question for the Minister who claims that the elimination by attrition of 25-30 jobs has no negative impa ct on a commun ity, and remind the Minis ter that, if extrapolated on the population of Winnipeg, that amounts to some 350-425 jobs. Madam Speaker, that to me, would be . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. First of all, it's customary to address the Honourable Minister by the title of their department. May I also remind the member that question period is not a time for deba te.

Would you like to finish your question? MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, I apologize if I called the Minister something other than the Minister of Employment Services and Economic Security . In view of the fact that there's a clear impact on our economy in our community at the loss of 25-30 jobs, if the Minister hasn't taken any steps - which his answer seems to indicate - what steps will he take to cushion that impa ct in our commu nity? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister of Health. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Madam Speake r, this, the hiring in the hospitals, is usually done in a way that conforms with the directive of the Manitoba Health Services Commission. The situation is that the jobs are guaranteed. If that is the case, there is no layoff. So far, that's the policy of this government. If any hospital, on their own, will hire people over and above what is decided by the Commission, they're doing that on their own.

If that is the case, the only people who might eventually lose their jobs would be those people alone; and that is the only way we're going to have any kind of decoru m, any kind of order in the hospital, and we're not going to have the larger deficit that my honourable friends are so worried about sometimes. I think my honourable friend from Brandon should remembe r that. MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Brandon West with a final supplemen tary. MA. J.

McCAAE: Madam Speaker, my new question, which wasn't answered by the Minister of Employ ment Services and Economic Security, but by the new Minister representing Brandon, is the same question, and it goes to the Minister of Employment Services and Economic Security . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Mem bers can ask a Minister a question, they can't determine which Minister answers the question . . . A MEMBER: Or whether they an swer. MADAM SPEAKER: Or whether they an swer, you're absolutely right. The time for Oral Questions has expired. The last question was a repetitive question.

HANSARD CLARIFICATION MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Opposition House Leader. MA. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on a point of order, having just received Hansard from last Thursd ay. On Page 3205, you indicated to me that you had already recognized the Honourable Mem ber for lnkster again, so we have passed that order in the proce edings. This was in relation to my request 3299

Monday, 25 August , 1986 for yeas and nays on a motion to hear the Leader of the Opposition. On Page 3206, you, once again, said that apparently I did not hear you call on the Honourable Mem ber for lnk ster. Madam Speaker, I would ask you to peruse Hansard, which nowhere indicates that you had recognized the Honourable Mem ber for ln kster again, and perhaps acknowledge that to the House. MADAM SPEAKER: In fact, the time for a point of order is when the matter arises, and we did deal with that by calling yeas and nays . . . MR. G. MERCIER: You just received that. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please.

I recognize that we just received Hansard. I have not had a chance to look at it and certainly I try to conduct the Business of the House in as orderly fashion as possible for the benefit of all the members. On the other hand, it is not customary to reflect on decisions of the Chair. In fact, it's not proper at all to reflect on decisions of the Chair. Order please. I will cert ainly look at it and certainly if I have been in error, as I have done before, I would ask all members to forgive me for that. I did in all conscience, I know at the time, think that I had called on the honourable member.

We dealt with that situation expeditiously and I would like to leave the matter closed. HANSARD CORRECTION MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, I have a Hansard correct ion, Madam Speaker. On Page 3073 of Han sard dealing with the Estima tes of my department, I'm quoted as saying that a grant to the City of Winnipeg for the Alertmobile was $2,500.00. The figure should read $25,000.00. COMMITTEE BUSINESS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

I have received, pre sumably from our Caucus Room, a message to our Opposition House Leader regarding the preparat ion of Hansard when it deals with the Public Utilities and Natural Resources Committee. I appreciate the extra effort that was made by Hansard staff on two occasions now to provide an unedited draft when we have had a recall of the Public Utilities Committee dealing with MTS-MTX.

Madam Speaker, I wonder if we might be able to come to some sort of an agreement with yourself and your staff that if we are to call MTS hearings say in a circumstance of morning and evening, that we don't recall or reconvene the MTS hearings until we have received an unedited version, at least, of the previous morning 's proceed ings to check again answers, because always answers to questions tend to lead us to more questions and often times to reversals of positions on answers given.

So it's sort of important, Madam Spea ker, that prior to the recall of the Public Utilities Committee that we at least have an unedited draft of the previous meetings carrying on. MADAM SPEAKER: The honourable member does not have a point of order, and may I remind the honourable member that questions directed to the Chair are not in order. If he has any concerns of that nature, he should address it to the Honourable Government House Leader who then will discuss it with the Clerk's office and thereon. MR. D. ORCHARD: This is sort of like the caste system in India.

MADAM SPEAKER: May I remind the honourable member that we have longstanding rules of this House. If he's not satisfied with them, there are appropriate ways for dealing with that. ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker, I move that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consid er of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, seconded by the Minister responsible for Native Affairs.

MADAM SPEAKER: It has been moved by the Honourable Government House Leader, seconded by the Minister responsible for Native Affairs . . . MR. G. MERCIER: Perhaps, Madam Speaker, just on a matter of Business of the House, I could indicate to the Government House Leader that we would like to proceed with Private Mem bers' Hour. MOTION presented. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Madam Speaker, I rise on a grievance. Rules permit each member to have a grievanc e in each Session and I am exercising this option now, Madam Speaker.

The grievance relates to the handling of the whole Manitoba Telephone System by this admin istration. Over the last several yea rs, we've had a great number of concerns raised by members of this Opposition dealing with the Manitoba Telephone System and in particular it's subsid iary MTX. My grievance deals primarily with the concern of the emp loyees of the Telephone System, the corporation itself, th ose who are in charge with Mi nisterial 3300

Monday, 25 August, 1986 responsibility for it and also the government in its col lective control over this subsidia ry or Crown corporation. There are three areas of concern that seems to be bothering the government, Madam Speaker, that being the Mem ber for Brandon East, the Mem ber for Dauphin and the Mem ber for St. James. Those seem to be the principle concerns of this admin istration and their refusal to get to the truth and make sure all of the facts are made public to the people on the handling of public moni es and the public bus iness of th e Manitoba Telephone System. (M r. Deputy Speake r, C.

Santos, in the Chair.) Mr. Deputy Sp eaker, it is important that we clear the air for one of the oldest and lo ng-serving Crown corporations in the Province of Manitoba. It has an important history, that which exemplifies the Province of Manitoba and its evolution from a long time ago. It's played a key

part in the development of commercial and the good will in this province. It's been, in many instances, the forefront in development and new technology in serving the commun ity, whether it be in the urban area, the rural area or in the North. In fact, Manitobans have found gainful emplo yment there, have served the corporation extremely well over the years and, in fact, even though it has been a provider of service and not the innovator of new technolo gy, it has gone beyond what many would expect of people working for a Crown corporation in providing services to the people of Manitoba.

It is those people, it is that history of the corporation , it is the good will of that corporation today that we must ensure is protected, enhanced and returned to its proper place as far as the people of Manitoba are concerned. The reason I rise on a grievance at this time is that for the last month or two this government has refused to do any thing ab out the empl oyees, about the corporation or, in fact, the service provided to Manitobans. A great deal of uncertainly has now settled in over that corporation. A great deal of una nswered questions now exist.

A great num ber of problems are now emerging and all of these require an answer. But where are the answers? Who is going to provide the answers? Each Minis ter , sinc e the New Democratic ad ministration has taken office, has given certain information to this House. One wonders, in light of recent testimony by certain emplo yees, whether before committee or through affidavit, what the particular Ministers were doing when they were given responsibility for the Manitoba Telephone System? Is it they believe that nothing could go wrong?

Did they fail to ask the proper questions that one must when you're a Minister of the Crown? How did they prepare for their Estimates? Who was giving them information? I mean what steps were the Ministers taking? Having been asked a series of questions three years ago on certain aspects of the MTX opera tion, what steps did those Ministers or the Minister of the Day take to ensure that he had the correct information? This didn't happen once; it happ ened several times.

We've now had a series of three Ministers over a period of time each having been asked the same questions and each provi ding the same answers, but tho se answers don't square with the facts as they appear to 3301 be today. In fact, one wonders when you consider how this government has handled all Crown corporations since they have taken office in 1981, just on what basis they felt they could ignore the Telephone System, because in all other instances they have become heavily involved in the day-to-day affairs of the other Crown corpora tions. All of them ha ve gone on to lose money.

We look at Manfor; we look at Flyer - Flyer was a saleable entity when this administration took over. After many millions and millions of dol lars of losses, we had to pay someone to take it off our hands. There is no gua rantee that there'll be anything there once the current agreement expires. Yet this gov ernment, who appointed the board, appoint ed its political colleagues to the board, took a hands-off attitude. At least, that's the appearance. Then what were they doing as far as looking after the affairs of the taxpayers as it relates to this area?

Why did they not take a more important investigative role in this particular corporation? Why did they not ask the series of questions that were posed to each succeeding Minister? As I indicated, I believe that the government, which is now in a position of stonewal ling, is hurting an excellent corporation. Now, everyone who works at the Telephone System is being tarred with a brush that should only be touching a few. In assessing the information that is now coming forward, probably the single most important fact is, who will assess whethe r the information is accurate and correct?

No one in the public certainly will accept a private or a quiet investigation, whether it be by RCMP or by management consultants. Who is going to take the myriad of questions asked over all of these years, and compare the answers to the testimony given today and the testimony given in previous years? Who is going to do the figuring? Who is going to do the tracking? Who is going to be able to lay before the public a true and accurate picture to make sure that the true story of MTS and MTX is spelled out and laid before the people of Manitoba?

It's interesting to note that more information has flowed from the political process, questions in the House, questions posed by the Opposition, questions at commit tee, questions in the newspape r, than questions being asked by the mem bers of th e government. An informed Opposition is one thing. An uninformed government is frightening.

It would appear that, if the present procedure being follo wed by the government is to protect the seats of three Ministers, three Ministers who are vulnerable, three Ministers who, if the truth were known, may have to resign their Cabinet responsibilit y, is that the price of cover-up in this province? Is that the price of destroying - (I nterjection) - no, I'm not. Maybe, if the Attorney-General would like to listen, we'd give him some help in trying to formulate his strategy for his caucus. It's interesting that the RCMP has been called in to investigate certain allegations.

It's also interesting that the Atto rney-General who had no

part in th ese proceed ings suddenly appeared as defence counsel for the Government of Manitoba at its hearings of the comm ittee last Thursday night. Having known of his prowess as defence counsel for people accused of criminal acts in the past, it's rather interesting that they would appoint the Attorney-General to step into the

Monday, 25 August, 1986 breach to take over the defence of the government in these particular proceed ings. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Attorney-General on a point of order. HON. R. PENNER: Yes. It's a serious point of order. I would hope that the Member for Fort Garry has enough good char acter and good sense to apologi ze for the remark. He has ch aracterized me as having appeared at the committee as, and I'l l even quote his words, "defence counsel for the Government of Manitoba." I appeared as a member of the comm ittee, as an ML A, having been appointed by our side.

I took no part as an advocate for the Government of Manitoba. I partici pated in no way in that committee in any other way than as an MLA. To impute to me a motive of having attended the commit tee to defend the Government of Manitoba is not consistent with the record, is not consistent with the role I have consistently played as Attorney-General, is a slur on my chara cter, and he should apolog ize. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Does the Mem ber for Fort Garry want to speak on the same point of order? MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There was no intention to slur the Attorney-General.

In fact, I complimented the Attorney-General when he was in private practice on his good offices of being able to defend those accused of criminal acts. My indication was and I saw the proce ed ings of the particular comm ittee, that the Attorney-General kept interrupting the questioning of government witnesses before the comm ittee. It had all the appearances of defence counsel in a criminal proceed ing. But if the Attorney-General is worried that this was the impression convey ed, I can do nothing about it.

I will th ough apolog ize for any aspers ions on his cha racter , because I do not intend to cast aspersions on his character. In fact, I have never at any time, either directly or indirectly, intended to cast aspersions on his chara cter. If the Minister has taken it as a personal affront or an aspersion on his char acter , then I withdraw those remarks. We have now before us a multitude or a plethora of investigations. We have, appointed by the government, an inquiry conducted by the RCMP as it relates to the alleged criminal activities.

So, we have a series of RCMP officers or perhaps it's an officer cond uct ing investigations, interviewing and reviewing the testimony or comments by certain empl oyees. They may or may not lead to criminal ch arges. We have, if the information is correct, an inquiry being condu cted by certain officers of the Law Department of the Manitoba Telephone System. We don't know on what authority or on what basis the Law Department is conducting its inquiry.

One can assume that they are not assisting the RCM P in their investigations, because we were told that the RCMP were conducting their own separate investigations, totally independent from any other activity. So, we have those, the Law Depar tment, who would appear to have been involved in the creation of MTX and some of its dealings, carrying on an investigation and discussion and apparently trying to uncover facts as it relates to certain allegations within the corporat ion.

It would appear that they're in a conflict, because they are a party to the proceed ings that have led up to the current discussions and problems with MTX. Yet, it would appear that they are talking to staff members, trying to find out certain facts, a clear contradiction, a contradiction too that is not lost on the emplo yees in the Telephone System. They must choose to tell the truth, tell the truth to the RCMP, tell the truth to their empl oyer. But remember, a lot of these were not people who were involved in the final decisions or the political­ making decisions.

So, they are now being investigated by a second group, namely , the Law Department of the Telephone System. We also have a legislative committee that is, in theory, reviewing the corporate act and providing information on a whole series of questions relating to the affairs of MTS and MTX. We have empl oyees coming before that committee who are attempting to answer questions that may or may not be within their jurisdiction, who may be attempting to provide answers for their political masters. It makes it very difficult for them. It makes it alm ost an impossible situation for the empl oyees.

We also have a management audit or a management review being conducted. An extensive qrea was outlined in the Chamber by the Minister responsible for MTX, and a subs equent press release was announc ed, outlining these extensive reviews. The question here though is: who will they be answering to? Will they be talking to the same people?

If they are, who then will they be comparing their notes with, the Law Department of the Manitoba Telephone System, the RCMP, the legislative comm ittee, because it is important in all of this to unc over exactly what is fact and what is fiction and, no doubt, management is conducting its own internal inquiry. Now the brunt of all of this inquiry are the emplo yees. Who is to coordina te all of that information to ensure that the true story is coming forward? In fact, what we have is a defensive operation by senior management of the Telephone System attempting to provide their version.

It would appear, from the allegations to date, that it is some senior management who have perhaps caused the problem for MTS and the MTX. If they are now involved themselves, or through their agents, in conducting an investigation of certain staff members, where does that place the staff? In a very difficult and almost untenable situation. In all of this, who is going to protect the innocent? It would appear at the last legislative com mittee meeting of MTS and MTX, a number of lawyers were present. They may not have been representing the government.

I suspect they were representing certain members of the staff of the Manitoba Telephone System. Is it now turning to the point where every time someone gives testimony to any one of a number of investigative processes within the Telephone System, that you need your lawyer present? If that is the process that is now in existence at the Telephone System, then all one can say is a sense of paranoia, a sense of fear is now pervading the whole structure. How then, under those circumstances, can we get the truth and the facts? How can the public be sure that the correct review of this whole process has been conducted?

Who is going to protect the innocent 3302

Monday, 25 August, 1986 employee? Who is going to give support to management? None of this will do that. The Minister might say, well , management terms will uncover all of the necessary problems or the RCMP will find out whether there is any criminal activity or condu ct; yet what about the total overall operation? No one is there to coordinate it. Maybe it's being coordin ated from the political level. If it 's being coordinated from the political level , who then is investigating the politicians? We know that three Ministers are at risk in this government.

We know that the current Minister is having problems getting answers to his own questions . Quite frankly , if I was the Minister of the Crown , I would want to know the correct and accurate truth and know whe ther or not there is any basis to the allegations and I would want to have a true and thorough airing of the whole process.

Quite frankly , I don 't understand why this government , and particularly this Minister , is afraid to have a full and open inqu iry because the key in all of this , politician s come and go, but we deal in public trust and public con fiden ce and not once has this governmen t done anything over the last six to eight weeks to ensu re pu bl ic confidenc e in the Telephone System - in fact, they have destro yed p ublic confide nce in the Telephon e System - and it is impor tant tha t they reform the system , en sure that all the problems have been examin ed and solved to rebuil d the public 's trust and confi dence in the employees and the Telephone System .

Now , t o further compound the problem of the employees and the protection of t heir rights is the comme nt by the Min ister of Hydro in the House on Friday when he referred to two employees name d in correspondence with the Minister for the Telephone System as hacks and flacks . Could anyone wond er how people will be treated , if they come forward , by the politicians or senior management in this particula r so­ called review or investigation of the Telephone System ? In fac t, if they honest ly believe there was nothing to hide, then why are they treating employees in that fashion?

Quite frankly, it ' s a shabby display of leadership ; in fact , it's an abdication of leadership . They are disregarding the interests and the rights of the employees because it's not for now , it's the right of those employees , whoever they may be, who would like to throw some light on this whole process , who , quite frankly, might be talking out of turn as far as one of the superiors are concerned and their career might be jeopardized .

It's a deplorable state when a Minister of the Crown refers to employees of Telephone System, who are attempting to get to the bottom of things , as accusing them of being hacks and flacks. Does that give confidence to those who are working in the Telephone System? I suggest not . It's interesting that the Premier keeps referring to a call for an independen t inquiry as something akin to a Star Chamber . Well, I recall my history on the Star Chamber when I was attending at law school and I'm sure the First Minister has forgotten his history as it relates to the Star Chamber .

In fact, if he has forgotten , perhaps his reading of the editorial comment in the Free Press over the weekend might reacquaint him with the true facts of what a Star Chamber is. He ind icates that an inquiry , requested by the Opposition , is similar to that of a Star Chamber or an inquisition. But history will show that a Star Chamber or the inquisition operat ed in secr et. What 's the g overnm ent doing with their inquir y? They are conducting a St ar Chamber. They are operatin g i n secre t. They are afraid to open thi s whole process to publ ic scrut iny. A Star Chamber acts arbitr arily.

Just l ook at the conduct of this government over the last six to eight weeks . Can you say they 've a cted with any logi c, with any plan , anythi ng but a positive sense? They would and have acted arbitrarily . One day it 's up, next day it's down , then w e'll do thi s, then we'll do that , then you can subp oena , no you can't subpoen a, you 'll get all your information , just give us your question s in writing while we're still getting it. My goodnes s, Mr. Deput y Speaker , talk about arbitrary! Their conduct gives one more credence to the concept th at they are running the Star Chamber .

That's why it is so imp ortan t and uppermost in th e Premier's mind . They ar e th e perpetrator of the Star Chamber as it relat es to thi s whole question of MTS and MTX . The inquisition or Star Chamber relied on tortur e. I will not imply that this government is indu lging in th ose aff airs. But their conduct, their lack of concern for the image of the Telephone System and , in particular, tho se employees who have worked hard for it, h ad not hing to do with this affair , in fact would lik e t o make sure that the good name of the telphones are cleared, perhaps that is a form of tort ure .

The y are afraid to let the light com e in. They are afraid to allow t estim ony under oath. It doesn't have to be befor e a judg e; it can be before just a general person who has the authority to subpoena, to prepare , to research, who has legal counsel to make sure that the prop er decor um of the proc eedings are protected and evidence is given under oath . Now the First Minister was quick to appoint a Star Chamber to clear one of his Ministers for his reputation . He appointed the former Chief Justice of the Court of Appeal to make an inquiry into the affairs of one of his Ministers .

According to the First Minister , that's a Star Chamber inquiry with all kinds of public display and all kinds of input and dragging it through the media and everything else like this. If you look at the activities of the First Minister in appointing a Commission of Inquiry in that instance and you look at the words and deeds of the First Minister in the last two to three weeks , one wonders where his consistency is. He doesn ' t have any consistency. If a public inquiry is a Star Chamber , then he owes a large apology to the Member for Transcona because he appointed a Star Chamber to investigate him. But , Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the real Star Chamber and its tactics are carried on by the government. We are talking here about the question of public accountability at the political level and at the management level of the Telephone System and at the staff level. I believe that most are honourable people and responsible people . They would like a full public accounting of the words and deeds that went on to make up this whole sorry mess of the MTX-MTS affair . It's interesting.

The government has gone from damage control by moving all their political appointees and Ministers in charge to try and contain this particular problem to one now of burying the problem , stonewalling, attempt ing or refusing to proceed with a proper, full public accountability process. One wonders 3303

Monday, 25 August, 1986 if this government kn ows any thing about public accountabil ity. Perhaps the truth will come out and find that they should be accountable for their actions, or actions conducted on their behalf. Probably that is what they're afraid of, and that is why they want to bury this whole program. If they have nothing to hide, then why not a public inqu iry? That will bring out everyt hing. It will show that there are no problems; it will show there were no kickbacks; it would show that there were no shoddy management practices.

Yet, the two inquiries launch ed by his admin istration are to be kept secret, to refuse access to the public, to refuse access by the media and to refuse access to other elected officials in this province. So one can only assume, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that they do have something to hide, that they are afraid of the truth and, in fact, the conduct of this First Minister and his party is that of a star cham ber in trying to suppr ess the whole question of MTX and MTS.

Well, as I indicated in the beginning, my grievance rested and related to this government's conduct on behalf of the people of the Province of Manitoba, the ratepayers who provide the sources of revenue for this particular Crown corpora tion, but more important ly, the good name of the Telephone System, its management and the people who work in it, and nothing to date by this government has done anything to exonerate them and clear the air as it relates to that whole system. It would appear that there are some problems in that structure, but what steps have they done to resolve them? Nothing.

They are covering it up. They intend to keep it hidden and, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I, along with my colleagues, will take every step possible to make sure that it becomes public and those who are responsible for this sorry affair are, in fact, dealt with in due process. That is not deemed a threat. It is merely an attempt to clear the air as it relates to a good corporation and a lot of good emp loyees and to get a lot of bad political people off their backs and allow them to take responsibility for their mismanagement. Thank you. MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is a motion on the floor that the Speaker now leave the Chair and that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Supply to consider of the Supply to Her Majesty. QUESTION put, MOTION carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supp ly to be granted to He r Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for Bur rows in the Chair for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recre ation; and the Honourable Mem ber for Kildonan in the Chair for the Department of Government Services. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - GOVERNMENT SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, M.

Dolin: Being in comm ittee, we are on Page 80 dealing with Resolution 76, Item 2.(

g) Gimli Properties - the Mem ber for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister list the tenants of Gimli Ind ustrial Park? Have you got a list of that? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Government Services. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I don't know if the Mem ber for Turtle Mountain wants the complete list, that I should go through each, or whether he wants to have a copy of the list tabled? MR. CHAIRMAN: Tabling is fine. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, I could table a list as of March 31, 1986. We'll get copies made of that. It's being made, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ROCAN: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could just tell us if there have been any additions or deletions in the last few years, any changes? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, there's always, Mr. Chairman, some turn over. I couldn't give all of them. Of course, there is one additional lease that has created some controv ersy there, that had been a subject of some questions during question period dealing with the Gimli Dragways and Dimar Training Systems which is a new lease this past year. So that is one new one. Ap parently , there have been a few other small companies that have come and gone as it is typical on a yearly basis.

MR. D. ROCAN: Mr. Chairman, has the National Research Council renegotiated for a new lease at Gimli? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, one of the tenants as of March 31, 1986 - stratospheric studies using balloons; that is still what's going on as of March 31, 1986. According to the information I have, our staff person who is directly in charge at this time, Mr. Stu Ursel, will be here shortly and he can just reaffirm to me that is still the case.

I realize th at there were some reductions and cutbacks in National Researc h Council activities by the Federal Government that impacted on Gimli, as well as Churchill and other areas, but I'm not certain whether this particular one was one that was impa cted by the changes. MR. D. ROCAN: Could the Minister indicate what is the usage factor of the total facility and how much space is left available; how much room is still available over there? HON. J. PLOHMAN: My un derstanding, Mr. Chairman, for'85-'86 was that the industrial space was about 75 percent occupied. MR. D.

ROCAN: I also noticed that Canadian National Rai lways are still in there. Is that school still carrying on and for how much longer? Is there a lease, like a 5-year lease, 10- year lease, or what is there for that? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would have to ask for a repeat of the comp any. MR. D. ROCAN: The Canadian National Railw ay. HON. J. PLOHMAN: They are still occuping approxima tely 79, 902 squa re feet and they are 3304

Monday, 25 August, 1986 continuing with that operation to train engineers at that facili ty. We understand they are very interested in continuing that operati on. MR. D. ROCAN: Could the Minister indicate what efforts his department is making to make sure that the park is fully utilized? HON. J. PLOHMAN: This is an area tha we are looking at on a continuous basis. The manage r, Jim Dunlop at Gimli Properties, is always working with pros pective new tenants for the space there.

I'm not certain that there's been an aggressive marketing campaign to attr act tenants and I can explore that a little further in a minute. At the same time, the member is probably aware that we intend to pursue the option of turning over this whole complex to the businesses there over a period of time and in an orderly way, an orderly process. We believe that it is not a feasible operation tor the government insofar as the outlook is concerned.

There is a rather high heating cost, energy cost there, a high cost of servicing that area, and it's just not fea sible to assess the tenants the kind of rates that are needed to break even on that operation. We feel it is better that we start pursuing the privatization option and that is exactly what is being done at the present time. MR. D. ROCAN: It appears as though there's a pretty heavy concentration of personnel with over $1 .25 million in Sala ries allocated to that one property. Can the Minister indicate how many personnel are involved, and what is the nature of the employment for most of them? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: The hono urable membe r is referring, I believe, Mr. Chairman, to the 53 SY's at Gimli Properties, 46 being in the technical area and six being administrative support and one managerial. Now, just for clarificat ion, is the member asking what kind of classificat ions there are for the technical people, the vast majority of the staff? Is that the question? MR. D. ROCAN: Just the nature of the emplo yment for most of these people. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that there is quite a wide variety of positions in that technical area, including all the way from grounds keepers and cleaning staff to cooks and storekeepers. I mentioned maintenance staff, people who are waitresses and so on the for the CN - (I nterjection) - no, I'v e got cooks - providing service for the food outlet there as well. MR. D. ROCAN: I notice that there is no recovery from other departments in this particular operation. Is that just an oversight, or can the Minister indicate what the recovery factor is in the operation of the park? HON. J. PL OHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, this is primarily a revenue-gene rating area, because we're dealing with the private sector businesses. There is very little activity there from government departments. There's the odd use of the Aspen Lodge for meetings and so on by departments, but very little. 3305 MR. D. ROCAN: Could the Minister indicate what is the total income from the various leases in Gimli Park? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Total income yearly revenue from the industrial leases at the park is some $800,000.00. MR. D. ROCAN: Has the Minister considered tendering the cafeter ia facilities out to the private sector?

I'm led to believe, also, that he has given some consideration to contracting out the maintenance portion of it. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we, as I said earlie r, are looking at the overall picture with regard to the privatization of Gimli Prop erties. In that context, the cafeter ia is also being looked at insofar as turning it over to the users or to another company who might want to run it, but that will be part of the total proposal with regard to Gimli Properties. MR. D. ROCAN: Who's responsible for the day-to-day operations at the park? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Pardon me, Mr.

Chairman, was the question the day-to-day operation of the park? MR. D. ROCAN: Yes, the operat ions at Gimli. HON. J. PLOHMAN: We have a manager in charge and that is Jim Dunlop, not Harvey Smith as was previously thought. MR. D. ROCAN: Who is the executive director of property management? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The executive director is Stu Ursel, who was here and we're just trying to locate. Because of the delay, because of the grievance by the honourable member's col league, we weren't certain how long that would go on, and he's very busy, so he went back to some other work and will be coming shortly.

The director himself is Keith McMillan, who is on sick leave at the present time, recovering from a set back. MR. D. ROCAN: I would hope that every effort is taken to increase the utilization of the park. If that can be achieved, it would appear that with a 20 percent or 25 percent vacancy rate, there is a possibility of it being a viable financial operat ion. I'd like to ask the Minister if he could tell us the approximate numb er of persons who are emplo yed there by the tenants. Are there any figures on that? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I'm advised tha t the re are approximately 200 emplo yees emp loyed by the private sector - 17 4 full time and 26 seasonal and part time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, I believe the Minister said just a moment ago that probably we're looking at 75 percent utilization of the area. He was referr ing specifically to the industrial area of the complex. I guess this refers to the housing units that are 50 percent occupied. Could he upda te us on what

Monday, 25 August , 1986 the occupancy rate is on the rest of the properties there then? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I did indicate, and the member is correct, that industrial space was 75 percent occupied. Manitoba Housing has taken over the Aspen Park housing complex. So we are not involved with the running of that at the present time. Mr. Chairman, the rest is the airport, and I don't know how you would arrive at a utilization factor there, at least, at this time.

I'll check that information, but if the mem ber ha s specific questions about othe r particular functions at the park that he would like to know - the utilization occupancy rate - then we could get that for him. Mr. Chairman, it's just referring to the fact that Air Canada occasionally uses the runw ay. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Not too often we hope. I was surprised when you mentioned that Manitoba Housing has taken over the housing units. Does that mean they are still endeavouring to have them occupied or is that a case of them being moved or just disposed of in other ways? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, as I indica ted during my opening statement, our efforts continue toward the divestiture and privatization of this complex. As part of that, Manitoba Housing has taken over the housing component and is renovating the homes for sale as condominums. MR. G. CUM MINGS: I'm also inte rested in the Mi niste r's com ments regar ding privatizati on. An example of where it didn't pan out, in my opinion, is the Rivers' situation. Are we looking at literally granting these properties to suitable tenants? Because of the overhead that's involved, is that what would possibly attract even new clients to come in?

Is that the direction the depart ment is moving, or have you already developed a plan, or is it still just in the talking stage? HON. J. PLOHMAN: In terms of the sta tus, Mr. Chairman, I was just thinking about the question in terms of why or how it could possibly attract private tenants to take over ownership of their particular area, or new businesses to locate there. The fact is that we can't charge the kind of rents and leases that the government should be charging for heat and for space, because of the inefficiency of the heating system, the way it is, with central heating. It needs upg rad ing.

It was put in place during the war. In many cases, it's antiquated, very inefficient. Many of the buildings are very antiquated, certainly no thought of energy efficiency. I'm not reflecting on the decision­ makers of the day but the hangars and the space there, they're just sieves. It's impossible to continue to charge, to even attempt to charge the actual cost of operating those facilities because the businesses would go out of business if we charged, and so we have to run a deficit on them.

There was an attempt to raise the heating cost, for example, to realistic rates, but we found we just could not do that because there were so many in arrears. Yet there's no incentive for those private companies to do any improvements to those buildings because they don't own them. What we're looking at, of course, is to negotiate with them and with the R.M. of Gimli to take over this as an industrial park and to discuss with the tenants the best way to do it.

That is ongoing at the present time and we hope to have a reco mmendation for consideration by Cabinet with regard to final decisions being made within the next few months, realizing, of course, that there's more than one department involved here, particularly Small Business Development being very involved in this whole process. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Regarding the deficit, how does one arrive at what the deficit is? Do you su btract 800, 000 from the bottom li ne, which is total expenditures of 2.3 million? - (I nterjection) - I'l l let that go, Mr. Chairman. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, the total revenue that is derived is not only from the rental of space, which is the 800,000 I qu oted earlie r, but also revenue generated by Aspen Lodge and CN Training School, and for seminars and banquets that utilize the facilities. The total revenue is 1. 853 million and the expenditu res are 2.336, so the deficit, then, is $483,000.00. Do those figures match with what you have? MR. G. CUMMINGS: I'll have to take the Minister's word for it. The bottom figure is the only one I've got in front of me, 2.3. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I have revised figures, penned-in figures, and I just wanted to ensure that they were consistent with what the member had, Mr. Chairman. MR. G. CUMMINGS: On the tur nover of properties, the recreat ional facilities out there, Aspen - I don't know whether they're referred to as part of the Aspen Properties, or how you designate them - but the recreat ional facilities that are involved, if this becomes privatized, will they be turned over to the community or will they stay the respo nsibility of the department? Are they presently part of th e depa rtment's responsibility?

I'd like an explanation in that area. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we're talking mainly of the pool that was operated there over the last number of years and has been shut down at the present time because it is an inefficient operation. Anyone familiar with the operation of indoor pools knows that they are very costly to operate, and particularly costly when they're constructed without the kinds of considerations for energy saving that would be built into modern pools. So that one was very costly to operate.

We felt that could not continue, that the Provincial Gove rnme nt could not conti nue to subs idize a community to the amount we were were subsidizing that area for a pool. Nowhere else in the province does th at kind of thing exist. So we have taken - (Inte rjection) - Well, the operation of the town centre in Churchill is certainly one that we are putting in a lot of money. In most of the areas of the province, we don't see anything like that, where the province is responsible for the operation of pools in communiti es. 3306

Monday, 25 August, 1986 So what we have done is to initiate discussions with the R.M. and the town and the recreation authority to have them agree to shutting this facility down and us getting out of this obligation, not perpetuating it into infinity. What we've done is a three-year arrangement, Mr. Chairma n, where we would provide the Gimli Recreation Comm ittee - the Interlake Recreation Committee - with a $10 0,000 grant for three years, which is about what we were paying every year for subsidizing the operation of that pool, and then we're out of that obligation.

They will use that towards the capital costs of constructing a new faci lity and we will no longer have any obligations. We thought that was a fair way to dispose of that obligation on the part of the province. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I caught most of the answer. Was there a time period for the involvement? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Three years. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Comparing the list of tenants presently and from the report for 1985, I notice that the Winnipeg Sports Car Club is not listed as one of the present tenants. I think the Member for Portage wanted to ask some questions in this area but are they now sub- lessees? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the list that we just provided would show the Winn ipeg Sports Car Club as a lessee. The member should look down on the page MR. G. CUMMINGS: It's listed under Gimli Motor Sports Park; is that the organization that has replaced it? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I have a list of monthly and yearly revenue from each tenant there, as opposed to the industrial tenants that were given, that the member asked for earli er. This one provides the revenue list

whereas the one that we just gave answered the question that was posed by the Member for Turtle Mountain, or the Member for Ste. Rose - I don't recall - with regard to the lessees at the complex. There are a couple of others, I guess, that are not included in that list that are part of the whole Gimli Complex. The Winnipeg Sports Car Club is still one of those. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Could I ask for a brief description of what is being done, what our responsibilities are in the area of the kitchen services and facilities. The member said you were talking about cooks. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Aspen Park Lodge. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: Is that the only area that there's a connection in that area? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that's the operation of Aspen Lodge and it's primarily for CN use but there's also, as I said earli er, seminars and weddings and so on that use the facili ty. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Is that facili ty, in itself, self­ sustaining? HON. J. PL OHMAN: Mr . Chair man, tha t, again, probably for various inefficiencies because of the size of it and energy costs, the way it was set up, is not currently making a profit by itself. Mr.

Chairman, there was a comment made earlier that the Member for Portage wanted to talk about, the Gimli Dragways, and so on. Is he intending to do that this afternoon or are we going to stay and . . MR. G. CUMMINGS: He will be here. If you would agree to answer a question, we can make sure that he would be here. I'm not trying to hold it up. I had a note here that I couldn't und erstand. I'm prepared to pass that area. MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the Minister be willing to come back to the specific question for the Member for Portage at a later time? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Agreed . (g)(1) - pass; (g)(2)-pass. (

h) Alterations, Furnitur e, Furnishings and Incidental - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: There's no staff listed in this area. It looks like a recov erable. Is this a purchasing and redistribution department? How does this department operate? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Purchasing small furniture items for the departments and it's fully charged back. A lot of these things are unplanned for. They're required during the year if something breaks, or a replacement is necessary. So, considering overall government needs, it's quite a small amount. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: This may not be the precise area in which to ask this but it's certainly a related quest ion. Under purcha ses for the depar tment, how is the system set up for equipment and furniture purchasing? Do suppliers approach the government and ind icate that they have a product, or does the government put out tenders? Do you have a list of known suppliers? I understand that is, in some cases, the manner in which this department operates. If that is the case, how does one ... MR. CHAIRMAN: If I could suggest to the mem ber, that item is specifically dealt with under 3.(

d) Supply and Services, Purchasing. So if the member would like to wait under we get to 3.(d), it would seem to be appropriate there. That seems to be a legitimate area to deal with this item. MR. D. ROCAN: Fair enough, oka y. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further questions on (h)? MR. D. ROCAN: Oka y, pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(h)( 1)-p ass; 2.(h)(2)-p ass. 2.(

j) Technical and Energy Services, (j)(1) - the Member for Minnedosa. 3307

Monday, 25 August, 1986 MR. D. BLAKE: I would imagine it would come under here. What happened to the solar heating project we had on the roof here a few years back? Has that been covered previously or has that been dismantled and disposed of or is it still up there? What happened to it? Mr. Doern isn't here, so they can't really hoist him on it. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that the member's colleague, when he was Minister in 1980, discontinued the use of that particular operat ion. It's been donated to the University of Manitoba Engineering Faculty . MR. D.

BLAKE: We've no other solar heating projects that the government has undertaken? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Not formal, no. MR. D. BLAKE: Are there informal ones? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I don't know whether we util ize solar energy in any of our - (In terjection) - well, I unde rstand there's a solar air-to-air heat exchanger in one building in Brandon that utilizes solar energy. MR. D. BLAKE: There's a fair chunk of money in Salaries. How many empl oyees would we have in this department under Technical? HON. J. PLOHMAN: There are 12 in the supplementary information, Mr. Chairman.

The members have been provided with the list of SY's. There's one manag er, 10 technical persons and two, down to one this year, admin istrative support staff. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I'm interested in this area. There doesn't seem to be a lot of capital available, and there seems to be a fairly healthy transportation budget, approxima tely $1 ,700, $1,8 00 per staff. How does this department operate? Solely in the area of advice?

Because very often energy conservat ion, while advice and planning and technical information is useful, it very often comes down to the point where you can have all the technical information in the world, but if you don't have a budg et you can't do as much with it as you'd like. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the pay-back period for projects to be eligible under this program was six­ and-a-half years, six years. Most of those have been com pleted over the last six or eight years.

Under this program, most of those that would pay back in that period of time have been actually unde rtaken and com pleted and are now paying dividends. That's why we continue to see substantial savings and reductions in heating, as well as in the advice area where the staff would be available to conduct seminars or advise privately or whatever the case might be with building managers the ways that they can reduce their energy costs. It certainly has paid off considerably over the last number of years.

But the staff are also involved in any major upgrading projects or major renovations to ensure that the energy component is well-r epresented and the best decisions are made to reflect the kinds of requirements that are needed to experience savings. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I guess my question is still open to some degree. The Minister is saying then that any capital that would be needed would have to come under some other

section of the budg et in order to implement recommendations of this department. HON. J. PLOHMAN: That's right, Mr . Chairman, primarily un der the capital area where it's large expenditures, and the smaller ones which have been done, I guess, under Mai ntenance and Physical Plant. MR. G. CUMMINGS: The quali fications of the technical people, then, these should be quite highly qualif ied people that are listed under the nine technical people. Could you give me an idea of what we've got hired there? Engineers? HON. J. PL OHMAN: Engineers and technologists, I understand. If you want a breakdown, I can get it. MR.

G. CUMMINGS: No, I don't need to know that. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Building Sciences, I'm advised, technical people. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Transportation of 19 ,000 has jropp ed by $1 ,600.00. Are these people no longer needed on site? That is still a substantial budget. Does that mean they're not travelling as much or does it mean just an economy in travel? HON. J. PL OHMAN: Mr. Chairman, their work is by no means reduced in terms of getting out to the various areas where their responsibilities lie, where the buildings are. They have to ensure that they do not stay in a centralized way, that they do get around.

They will and they have. The reduction in this area merely reflects their actual expenditures of the last numb er of years. I'm advised that the area is expanding in the area of Workplace Health and Sa fety in terms of air movement, air qual ity. Because of the high-energy kinds of buildings tha t are being built, there are now other problems that are creeping into the system with the lack of movement of air and the area of smoke and how to clear it out of buildings so that the air is not polluted for non-smokers and for everyone.

I don't think air conditioning has been a high priority, at least in the Legislature up to this time, but probably air movement in here is one area we should look at. So that's the kind of thing. They are doing a lot of work and kind of shifting the emphasis in the area of workp lace health and safety kinds of concerns, but there has been no downgrading of the priority to get out to the areas of the province where they're needed. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I guess the question flows from what the Minister just said then in terms of leased buildings.

I know this isn't the department that would be responsible, but it's a question I would like the department, if there's somebody here who could assist, because it's a question that falls almost under all areas of Government Services where buildings are involved and we have a lease. 3308

Monday, 25 August, 1986 How is that handled between the department and the owner of the building where it's deemed to be insufficient? Is it simply an implementation of the rules and the owner is expected to live up to the regulation? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I'm not so sure of the question, but primarily if the question is the responsibility of the government once they lease a building or the owner of the building, the fact is the owner of the building is responsible for providing a proper environment for the leaseholders; which is the government .

If we're not satisfied, or the employees aren 't satisfied with the conditions , if there's problems arising or if we feel that there would be problems, then we do the kinds of testing and instrumentation to prove our point and to demonstrate to the owner that something has to be done about it. That's where we would use our technical expertise . MR. G. CUMMINGS: The reason I asked that question is that there is some confusion in my mind about the informatio n of the Workp lace Health and Safety regulations. The government must be subject to its own rules, regulations and inspe cti ons.

Does this department merely supply information, or is it also involved in , as you say, the testing concerning complaints once they've come up, or is it an ongoing program whereby we are going around ahead of Workplace Health and Safety people and in effect , may be doubling up on some of the work? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, my unders tanding is that there is no doubling up of responsibi liti es. The Government Services environmental people react to situations, both before or after. Environment and Workplace Safety and Health are involved in situations with employees.

So there isn 't an area there of duplication . They will usually act before Workplace Health and Safety on the basis of the testing that goes on, to ensure that there are proper step s taken. But occasionally there are areas where there are violations and so on, and then Government Services has to follow up with the owners of the buildings , the leased buildings, and/or if it's our own buildings, to take the necessary steps to remedy the situation which we do as quickly as we can and as quickly as financial resources will allow. There is some flexibility shown .

However , I don't think it's more than is shown to the private sector, basically , from inspections . If they know that the government is undertaking measures to correct the situation , they will usually give you time to do that. MR. G. CUMMINGS: First of all, I think if the chart that's shown here between'79-85 is any indication of the improvement in the consumption of energy in the buildings in the province, then certainly we've accomplished a fair bit in reduct ion of energy and I compliment the department in that area . On the six-year payback that was referred to, what is happening now?

Is that about as far as it is economically practical for the department to go? In other words, is six years considered to be the opt imum payback period before it starts losing efficiency in terms of dollars versus energy costs? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman , this six-year standard has been accepted right across Can ada; it is not unique to Manitoba . There are other situations where there would be a payback in six years , but now we're getting into major expenditures and major savings, obviously, if there is payback in six year s.

But they do involve major expenditures so they are usually combined and integr ated with renovation requirements for other purposes , whether it be fire and safety upgrading that's required , as well as handicapped access or whatever . When there are major changes being made , then of course the changes in the design for energy savings are incorporated . MR. G.

CUMMINGS: That confirms what I was wanting to get at because there are other departments that are not - it could be taken from what was said before that all six-year payback projects were in fact up-to-date and that 's not necessarily the case then - the Department of Education would be a good example, also, where another department is faced with six-year payback problems and where it gets into major expenditures, simply is not embarked upon on an across-the-board basis. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: When the member is talking about the Department of Education , I'm not certa in whether he's refer rin g to universities and community colleges or whether he's referring to the schools. If he's referring to the schools, well obviously the member is aware, I'm sure that that's a different jurisdiction. So we're not referring to the schools. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I understand that , but I bring it up to point out that it is also of course a child of government funding and what's good for the gander is good for the goose.

I was interested to know how far Government Services had gone with its own buildings in this kind of situation. I'm prepared to pass that one, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: (iX1)-pass; (iX2)- pass . Resolution 76: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $109,306 ,100 for Government Services , Property Management , for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1987-pass. We now move to Item 3, Resolution 77, Supply and Services 3.(

a) Executive Administration - the Member for Ste. Rose . MR. G. CUMMINGS: I have no questions under Executive Administration . MR. CHAIRMAN: (aX1)- pass ; (aX2)- pass. (

b) Fleet Vehicles - the Member for Ste. Rose . MR. G. CUMMINGS: Can the Minister or can the department explain what areas we provide vehicles for? For example, if you get out into some of the other departments , do all Deputy Ministers have vehicles? What is the base criteria for looking at a department and deciding if there will be vehicles available? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, there are two questions there: one is a very broad question , one's a very spe cific question . 3309

Monday, 25 August, 1986 Deputy Ministers, by position, as part of their job description or their terms of employment, have a government vehicle with certain specifications that are somewhat different, but not elaborately different than the average fleet vehicle, as are Ministers.

Other than that, I believe there are a number of positions that are designated as positions that would be eligible for a government vehicle on the basis of the position; but we're trying to get away from that as much as possible and get into the allocation of vehicles on the basis of the low-cost option or the most efficient and effective kinds of transportation for government employees. So in terms of that, there is a utilization factor that would be applied.

If cars are not being utilized to the extent that they should be to make it the cheapest way of providing transportation for that individual employee, then we will put them on a lower priority listing for repriorization to other positions that are created from time to time, other areas where it would be more efficient to have cer tain emplo yees uti lizing a government vehicle, as opposed to being paid private mileage or mileage for the use of their private car .

So there has been quite an extensive review of that area and an effort made to repriorize vehicles, to remove them from individuals who are not utilizing them to the extent they should be utilized, and redeployed; so that we are not expanding the government fleet. Over the last couple of years, it has stayed relatively static. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I guess part of that question then is, the government is paying 32 cents a kilometre for the use of private vehicles, what is the rule of thumb where a number of kilometres is a minimum requirement for a staff vehicle or for staff to have a vehicle? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, they figure around 19, 000 or 20,000. I'm just advised 19 ,000 kilometres where it would be cheaper to al locate a government vehicle than it would be to pay mileage. MR. G. CUMMINGS: How much is it? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The figure was 32 cents. MR. G. CUMMINGS: What would it be for private vehicles? I'm making an assumption there. Is that the figure that's used for comparison? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, for private cars for government business. Mr. Chairman, I don't have the answers to confirm whether the 32 is correct and I will get it. I'm not sure what it is at the present time.

I'm advised that it may be 26 cents per kilometre. MR. G. CUMMINGS: In looking at the maintenance

schedule tha t's here, as part of our add itional information - and this is a very good breakdown, having had a little bit to do with the operation of a public facility for maintenance of vehicles, I'm interested in these fig ures. I find them a little bit, I pre sume, misleading in terms of looking at 2,500 vehicles and you go down and look at alignment and brakes, for example, where you have 4,500 operations performed or tune-ups and electrical of 4,500; and yet you go down to winterizing and you see that only half of the fleet would have been winterized.

Tire repair - would not have purchas ed much more than one tire per vehicle. I wonder if some of those figures could be rationalized. For example, every time alignment and brakes are referred to, is that not necessarily a full alignment and brake job or does "a" alignment plus "a" brake job equal two opera tions, which therefore jimmies the total? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I understand, Mr. Chairman, that is where there's a doubling up of functions that take place. We would count the operation twice, that each operation would be reflected on the statistical information.

It also could reflect minor work on them, rather than major brake jobs, for example. MR. G. CUMMINGS: The shop, I take it, is an authorized autobody repair shop or Autopac repair shop, pardon me? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I didn't get the question. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Is the shop an authorized Autopac repair shop? I see $1,5 00 autobody repairs and I'm wondering if those are Autopac jobs. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. MR. G. CUMMINGS: One footnote says that there's a reduction in fuel costs because of the efficiency of the vehicles.

Has that been a steadily declining figure as the department is experiencing turnover or is that a recent phenomenon; I'm asking for a general comment here to try and get a feel of what is happening in the department. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I'm advised that this has been a continuing phenomenon, that there's been a reduction in the consumption of fuel because of the downsizing policy; and we still have some areas where I feel we could make some headwa y.

I have to work with a few of my colleagues, perhaps with myself in the Highways Department and Natural Resources in some of those big four-b y-fours they drive around, but I still think there's some areas there where we could be downsizing some of the vehicles; but there's been a substantial downsizing over the last five or six years and that is reflected in the reduction in costs. Of course, this year a double benefit because of the reduction in fuel costs on a unit basis, per litre basis. MR. G. CUMMINGS: What is the department's policy regarding purchase of vehicles? How is the tender set out? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I just want to reflect the reduction in consumption. In 1983-84, the average was 16. 7 litres per 100 kilometres. It went down to 16.5 in 1984-85; and this, 1985-86 to 15 .5, so that kind of a downward trend; and if we were to look before 19 83-84, it would have been much higher even. The policy for purchasing - there's tenders on low bid to meet the specifications, is my understanding for the general fleet vehicles. 3310

Monday, 25 August, 1986 MR. G. CUMMINGS: Are those bids always tendered within the province or are they from wherever a tender would be offered or from head office of the supplying company? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, they are tendered through any dealer who wants to bid and, of course, the price varies with the dealers or in terms of what the dealers want to or are prepared to take for a margin or a loss, depending on what they 're trying to do with their business, and get their volumes up in terms of how little of a margin they may want to take, so we do get a variance in the kinds of bids that come forward . The policy that we adhered to is that they should be North American manufactured . MR. G.

CUMMINGS: The second part of my question was: are they all Manitoba purchases, the dealerships , and , therefore, the supplier all Manitoba based? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman , the dealers that have bid, expressed interest, are all Manitoba dealers . MR. G. CUMMINGS: I guess I should have phrased the question differently. What I want to know is does the department have a purchase-Manitoba policy, first of all, with the vehicles ? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, there's no formal policy that we will not purchase cars by dealers outside the province, I don 't believe.

However, the dealers that we have listed are all Manitoba dealers , and we don 't have any interest expressed, so we never had to have a policy. We have a Buy Manitoba Program which applies a differential interest or a variance from the low bid.

From time to time where we have a Manitoba manufacturer , a second low bidder to an out-of-province bidder, we will at some time consider the tax benefits that would be lost if we were to go to the outside bidder and we'll sometimes award to the Manitoba bidder in manufactured goods, but we're not dealing with that situation since they're not making cars in Manitoba here . MR. G.

CUMMINGS: Then it's safe to assume that what the department has then, in terms of vehicles, do we have a buy Canadian not necessarily in the manufacture - I understand we're talking North American vehicles - but then if there were a tender to come from, say, a large Ontario dealership , it would not out of hand be discarded? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, I would assume they would have a dealer in Manitoba and it would be the dealer in Manitoba that would be quoting. MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)(1) - pass? MR. G. CUMMINGS: No. I still have some questions regarding the servicing of the vehicles , the garage services portion . MR.

CHAIRMAN: Well , perhaps the time being . . . MR. G. CUMMINGS: If you wish to adjourn to go back to the House, then, that's fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, the time being 4:30, it's time for Private Mem bers ' Hour. We will interrupt the procee dings and return at 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY - CULTURE, HERITAGE AND RECREATION MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: This

section of the Committee of Supply shall be deal ing with the Estimates of the Department of Culture , Heritage and Recreation. We shall begin with a statement from the Honourable Minister responsible for the department. The Honourable Minister. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I have copies of my statement, when a Page is back , for distribution. Mr. Chairperson, I welcome this opportunity to present my department's Estimates, and to review the events and achievements of the past year on which these Estimates are based.

The direction articulated by this administration in the Speech from the Throne is based on the principles of fairness and equality for all. It holds dear the value of the individual through the belief that each member of this society deserves equal respect and dignity , and has the right to the same opportunities as the next person . Mr. Chairperson, these principles reflect a fundamental concern for quality of life , and they are no more appropria tely applied than to the department such as Culture, Heritage and Recreation.

The Speech from the Throne also spoke to a commitment this administration has made to the enrichment of our communities through the promotion of multiculturalism and heritage resources. To further this ideal, this government calls on Manitobans from all walks of life to continue to develop a tolerance and respect for one another through deepening cross­ cultural awareness. All of us must be sensitive to a province composed of many peoples , and to the fact that many of us have come to Manitoba with rich and varied values and experiences. Equality of access and opportunity is rooted in an openness to one another .

Mr. Chairperson, the achievement of this equality of access and opportunity in the area of Culture, Heritage and Recreation will be more effective if it occurs in direct response to ongoing community consultation and participatio n. Our commitment to this cooperative interaction with the community is reflected in all program areas of my department . Manitoba has been experiencing a resurgence in the arts over the past number of years . We are indeed fortunate in this regard because our sense of identity will be strengthened in good measure by those people with the capacity to express to us our own condition .

However, Mr. Chairperson, I would like to stress that the province is in a partnership with other levels of government in sharing responsibility for sustaining a creative and productive cultural community . The recent federal report of the Task Force on Funding of the Arts 3311

Monday, 25 August, 1986 has recogn ized that there are not adequate resources in the system for artistic growth and has called on the funding partners to increase their share of direct funding for these activities and operations by some 5 percent per year. I am pleased to note that recent Statistics Canada information and other studies show that Manitoba's support for art and culture has continued to grow and outpace national norms.

Yet there are many cultural needs that have not received adequate support, and I hold the position that continued support by the province and other levels of government is essential to the continued well-being of the art and culture in Manitoba. Mr . Cha irperso n, I rais e concern ab out the commitment that the Federal Government holds in this shared respo nsibility for cultural funding. At the federal level, I note that over the past two years there has been a net funding decrease to the cultural area of some $45 million. To Manitoba, this translates into direct job and cultural opportunity losses.

In the case of the Canadian Broadcasting Corpora tion, for example, some 75 jobs were lost. The position of the Federal Government on matters related to culture is unclear , particularly with the recently imposed 10 percent tariff by Canada on im ported books. Mr . Chair person, Manitoba will not support any trade negotiations which weaken Canadians' and Manitobans' capacity to develop the skills and systems to strengthen our cultur al identity through the expression of our culture to ourselves and the world.

If we are to see continued growth of a strong and vibrant cultural community in Manitoba, the Federal Government must restore and increase its investment in Canadian cultural activities. Mr. Chairperson, my department will continue to act as a catalyst to assist the community in the vital role of arts as an integral

part in the commun ity. Manitoba is at the forefront in the assistance of expanding cultural and artistic interests and skills and integrating them into the communit y. Not only is it necessary to facilitate more cooperative efforts with community arts councils, education groups and municipal representatives, it is equally important to raise the level of arts awareness in the commun ity, particularly with childr en, the reby developing an expanding future audience for the arts. The first step, Mr.

Chairpers on, in this endeavour is our sponsorship this fall of a major arts education conference intende d to instill a commitm ent in participants to play an active role in the integration of the arts into their communit y. The status of the individual artist is a concern I have voiced on numerous occasions. Most artists exist below the poverty line, and we need to improve their economic standing in our society.

Recent reports show that Canadian artists are second only to pensioners with their lowest national revenue category of earnings, while the average income of full-time visual artists was less than $8,000 in 1984, and only half of that coming from the sale of their art. In response, Mr. Chai rperso n, recent increases in the resources of the Manitoba Arts Council have witn essed a benefit to artists, as well as helped nurture a healthier environment for their works.

Furthermore, departmental programs, such as tour sponsoring, summer events and cultural industries, have contributed to artists' creative and economic we ll-being. The Cul tural Resources Branch in particu lar has impr oved opportuni ties for Manitobans to study, create, produce and exhibit cultural products, and to pursue excellence. Mr. Chairperson, over the years my department has enjoyed a lo ngstan ding, cooperative wor king relationship with the major cultural institutions in the province. In the environment of government cuts to culture, support to institutions has been maintained.

In large part, this is due to a recog nition of their valuable contribution to cultural life in Manitoba. Continued operating support to the Centre Cultural Franco -Manitobain, the Centennial Centre Corporation, the Museum of Man and Nature, the Ukrainian Cultural and Educ ation Centre, the Brandon Cente nnial Auditorium and the Winnipeg Art Gallery will underline this admini strat ion's commi tment to cult ur e and heritage initiatives in Manitoba. The diversity of our culture is most evident in our ethnocultural existence.

Our culture is a true celebration of the many and varied values, lifestyles, languages, legacies, experiences and lessons gained from many diverse peoples. We believe this diversity is a positive force, an asset, to the rich and colourful fabric of society. In support of ethnocultural groups, money has grown in the past five years to more than half-a- million dollars from the $13 5,000 alloc ated by the previous admin istration, and is accompanied by a commitment to effectiv e dev elopm ent and implementation of multic ultural policy through community consultation and participation. Mr.

Chairperson, my department, in concert with other provincial organizati ons, has substantially increased resources to expand programs and services in the commun ity. We are jointly committed, along with the Mani toba Arts Council, the Manitoba lntercultural Council, and the Manitoba Heritage Federat ion, to ensure coordina ted planning, funding , information sharing and communic ation in order to provide awareness of the government's compr ehensive policy while maintaining a clear deli neation of roles and responsibility.

Flowing from both voiced community need and identified initiatives framed by the Canada-Manitoba Subsidia ry Agreement on Communications and Cultural Enterprises, my department is undertaking research tha t focuses on the Ma nitoba crafts people and booksellers. Studies are under way in both areas to determine, cooperat ively, the appropriate public policies and strategies in supporting and promoting the creat ion and distribution of Manitoba crafts and publi cations.

Preliminary statistics from federal-provi ncial research efforts indicate that cultural activities constitute a labour -intensive industry and provide a high return of dollars to the community from ancilla ry businesses which are stimula ted by the presence of cultural activities. This unde rscores the social value of such activities and also empha sizes the scope and magnitude of the economic impact generated by the cultural sector on both the provincial and national economies. Mr. Chai rperson, on April 1st of this year, substantial amendments to The Amusements Act were proclaimed.

These amendments provide . . . MR. J. ERNST: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. 3312

Monday, 25 August, 1986 I'm having difficulty hearing the Minister because of the noise from the opposite bench. Would you ask them to come to order? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you. I'd like to thank the Member for Charleswood for drawing my own colleagues to order. Mr . Chairperson, let me start again with some comments on the amendments to The Amusements Act. These amendments provide the - (Int erjection) - Sure. These amendments provide the legisla tive authority for the clarification of home-use video products and built-in protections for both the consumer and the industry.

Negotiations are currently in progress to establish an interprovincial agreement allowing the Provinces of Manitoba, Ontario and Saskatchewan to es tablish mechanisms whereby ho me-use vide o products can be classified jointly and cooperati vely. It is belie ved that this agreement will result in reducing potential costs to the industry and the consumer and that the proposed system will ensure that the consumer has easy access to reliable information on film classification. On Ma y 12 of this year, Ma nitoba Day, two annou ncements were made with a great sense of pride and accom plishment by my department.

On that day, the 11 6th birthday of our province, I had the pleasure to announce the establishment of my department's Annual Cultur e, Heritage and Recreation Awa rds Program. The impetus for the development of this program came from the various communities served by my department in their desire to reward excellence and achie vement and to pay tribute to Manitobans who have made significant contributions to the preservation of heritage and the development of arts and recreation in this province. On Manitoba Day, I also had the pleasure to announce the proclamation of The Heritage Resources Act.

This statute will bring the preservation of heritage into the realm of ordinary Manitobans. Powers are now available to local governments, supp orted by grant assis tance, to preserve the tang ibl e legacies of yesterday that are a testament to the varied cultural expression of modern society . Once again, Mr. Chairperson, the principles of local control, respect for the values of the local resident, and a concern for our quality of life go beyond rhetoric. By leg isla tive and progr am matic ac tion, heritage preservation is no longer confined to the heritage professional and academic.

This valuable inheritance is being appreciated as a community asset by all Mani tobans. At this crucial time in our province's history, when rapid change is affecting every aspect of society, these precious link s to our past assume even gr eater significance. We have a responsibility to protect the best of them now. Futur e generations will not have the same opportuni ty. The effect of The Heritage Resources Act is evident in five grant programs that were announced to assist communi ties in actively preserving and promoting their 3313 heritage thr ough designation, restoration and prote ction.

The five programs are: provi nciall y designa ted heritage building gr ants, municipall y designated heritage building gr ants, commun ity commemor ative plaque grants, oral history grants and archives capital facilities grants. Support of the new heritage legislation is by no means restricted to financk.I allocation and assistance. We have lau nched a two-phase heritage awareness campaign whose objective is to instil! and encourage greater awareness and a sense of pride in our heritage as a legacy linking all Manitobans throughout time.

While Phase I of this campaign focused on the new legislaton promoting our heritage as a precious gift that is "worth keeping-worth sharing," Phase II will carry this message into the community and encourage all of us to conserve, interpret and com memorate our collective past. Tantamount to our efforts of historical preservat ion of years gone by are our efforts to better understand what can be done to enrich the daily lives of Manitobans now and in the years ahead. This year, Mr.

Chairperson, I will apply my commitment to community input in the area of recreation and leisure as I consult with Manitoba communities in order to gauge public opinion, attitudes and concerns. This information will help shape new strateg ies and initiatives for future implementation. During this series of consultations, we will be assessing the participation in and need for recreat ion activities which go far beyond those of fitness and physical activity. Recreat ion has become an integral facet of the basic "health and well­ being" of all Manitobans.

It is a critical element in ensuring tha t Ma nitoba is a go od place to liv e. Recreat ion has an almost unlimited potential to develop life skills and to promote and maintain healthier and independent lifestyles, thereby giving commun ities the tools for revitalization and self-sufficienc y. Our society, as it is transformed by technological cha nge, mus t be able to provide mean ingful opportunities and activities within our commun ities, which sponsor individual creativity and life-long pursuits.

The dynamic changing base of our social and demographic structures alters the nature, quality and scope of activities del ivered by the department. To be responsive to these needs, we must engage in a reassessment process that will identify users and ensure that our program structures meet the needs of all age groups, backgrounds, economic levels and regions. This admi nistration realizes its responsibility to provide the assistance, leadership and recog nition that is so essential to the coherent development and maintenance of a system for the del ivery of recreat ion services.

This is particularly true in respect to the volunteer who provides the main source of energy, to power the provision of direct - (I nterjection) - recreation services. A MEMBER: That sounds pretty good Judy , but when are you going to stop picking on the Mennonites. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Mr. Cha irperson, our support of the contributions of volunteer organizations inclu des consu ltative services to commu nity organizations and leadership training opportunities for full-time staff and volunteers. - (I nterjection) -

Monday, 25 August , 1986 Mr. Chairperson, I should point out to members opposite that my husband is a Mennonite and he's certainly a strong ND Per. A MEMBER: There are hun dreds of thousands of us. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Mr. Chairperson, programs of communi ty activities are essential elements of life if people are to keep their sense of purpose and achieve happiness in a complex society. That is why my department has provided support in the area of volunt eer board development to raise the competency level of volunteer boards that relate to this department. Mr.

Chai rperson, an area that has an intrinsic role in the education and development of people in the community is the continued support of Manitoba's public libraries. In light of our perpetual search for new ways of enhancing individual and col lective access to information resources, we have increased the operating grant to the City of Winnipeg Libary System from $2 to $2.33 per capita. This represents a $1 85,000 increase. As well, a supple mentary grant will help the Winnipeg Public Library augment its book collection. Again this year, Mr.

Chair person, my department is providing capital grants to rural libraries, assisting them to improve their facilities. These grants have permitted rural libr aries to avoid shutdo wns and remain in operation without crippling maintenance costs. In closing, Mr. Chairperson, I wish to acknowledge the many individuals throughout Manitoba who direct their efforts and channel their creativity into the development of Cultur e, Heritage and Recreat ion in our province. Mr .

Chair per son, with continue d Pr ovi ncia l Government support and rejuvenated commitment from the private and public sectors, these activities will no doubt continue to flourish because of the interest and cooperative efforts at the local level of each commun ity, a contribution that enriches all our lives. Thank you, Mr. Chai rperson. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair now calls upon the critic for the Opposition to make his reply if he so desires. MR. J. ERNST: I thank the Minister for her statement.

It was rather all encompassing and, as a matter of tact -(Interjection)- I said "her." I'm going to peruse Hansard and find "her." Mr. Chairman, before I was rudely interrupted by the Member for Lakeside, I want to say that the Minister's statement was rather all encompassing. As a matter of fact, she intended to, I think, almost go on as long as the Member for Fort Garry before her, but he on a grievance, of course. Mr. Chairman, I think, by and large, all members of the House support, in principle at least, the basic statements of the Minister relating to her department.

Certainly , we are all in favour of the arts, of the performing arts. We suppor t them in a variety of ways, Mr. Chairman, and particularly the Member for Arthur ,