PDF Version

May 1,

SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Jim Bennett, MHA for St. Barbe, substitutes

for Andrew Parsons, MHA for Burgeo La Poile.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Dale Kirby, MHA for St. John's North,

substitutes for Gerry Rogers, MHA for St. John's Centre.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Kevin Pollard, MHA for Baie Verte

Springdale, substitutes for Dan Crummell, MHA for St. John's West.

The Committee met at 5:30 p.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Littlejohn): Good evening, everyone.

I want to thank the minister and his staff for returning for this evening. In

the essence of time we are going to begin.

Dale, you ended at 3.1.02. If you wish to pick up from there, you may begin,

and you have ten.

MR. KIRBY: Thanks. Dale Kirby, the great historic District of St. John's

North.

I just want to go back to a couple of things we were discussing last time

that I have had a number of contacts from, I guess, the interested public since.

The Cultural Connections Program, if I wanted to find the line in the Budget

where that was cut, or where the budget is for that right now, where is that

again? I think we covered that

MR. JACKMAN: It would be on 2.1.02.

MR. KIRBY: In 2.1.02. Okay, just bear with me here now.

That is Assistance to Educational Agencies and Advisory Committees. What

portion of the current funding listed under 2013-2014 Estimates, what portion of

that is for Cultural Connections as a whole?

MR. JACKMAN: Cultural Connections, there is $874,000 left in that.

MR. KIRBY: So, $874,000 is what we are and the total amount we had for

the previous year was?

MR. JACKMAN: We took out $250,000.

MR. KIRBY: It is $874,000, less $250,000.

MR. JACKMAN: No, no. There is $874,000 remaining.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. The previous year there was

MR. JACKMAN: Basically, about $1 million. Yes, a little over $1 million.

There is $874,000 left in it. It has been reduced by $250,000.

MR. KIRBY: It is reduced by $250,000.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: There were three programs in that, correct?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: One was ArtsSmarts.

MR. JACKMAN: ArtsSmarts, the Visiting Artists Program, and the School

Touring Program.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. What do we have this year for ArtsSmarts?

MR. JACKMAN: We have $150,000.

MR. KIRBY: What did we have the previous year?

MR. JACKMAN: They had $225,000.

MR. KIRBY: The Visiting Artists?

MR. JACKMAN: There is $50,000 there, and there was $75,000.

MR. KIRBY: The School Touring Program?

MR. JACKMAN: There is still $110,000 there, and that was cut by $50,000.

MR. KIRBY: Cut by $50,000?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. So there was $160,000 there last year.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, that clears that up for me.

There was another question; it is more of a global question that I wanted to

ask as a result of responses that have been given in Question Period since we

last met.

I guess it is difficult to say at this point, and I do not want to respond

for you, I guess it is difficult to peg job losses to some extent, but what

would you say is the total number of job losses that we have seen through the

reduction in the Budget this year in the Department of Education? Because there

are public numbers and then there are things that have happened since then. Do

you have an overall estimate of the total number of positions?

MR. JACKMAN: No, not at this particular point, because with the staffing

issues that is still all being worked through. It is not until May 7 that

teachers have to be notified. After that, then it is just you may have school

A, where a teacher may become redundant because the population has dropped. Then

all those mechanisms start to trigger and fall into place, but at the end of the

day we do not expect too many teachers will lose jobs with the number of people

who are coming out and the retirements.

MR. KIRBY: Aside from teachers and individuals who would have been

employed directly by one of the five boards, how many Department of Education

employees are no longer in your employ or no longer will be in the department?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, this is where we took $6 million out. We have

thirty-one.

MR. KIRBY: Thirty-one?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: That is as of today?

MR. JACKMAN: No, there will be some people that were seconded who will

finish up their tenure with us in August. Yes, they will be there until August.

MR. KIRBY: They will go back to schools or the new board.

CHAIR: Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: There would be twenty of that thirty-one who would be

core public service, and eleven which would be secondments.

MR. KIRBY: Do we anticipate that there will be more or is this the extent

of it?

MR. JACKMAN: That is it.

MR. KIRBY: Eleven secondments?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Now, you can correct me if I am wrong, I have a relatively good memory. The

last time we met we were at 3.1.02, School Board Operations, and I believe we

had finished that?

MR. JACKMAN: We had finished, yes.

CHAIR: We have you at 3.1.03, Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Yes, that is what I thought.

For 2012-2013, there was $307,000 budgeted for Salaries at the Learning

Resources Distribution Centre. That was under spent. Was that due to maternity

leave?

MR. JACKMAN: There was a vacant stock handler who was there.

MR. KIRBY: It was one vacant position. Are we down further positions

here?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, there we are. The stock handler, one position is being

eliminated.

MR. KIRBY: In addition to that?

MR. JACKMAN: No, this one was down for a portion of time.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: Now what is happening is we are taking the full-time

position out.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. It looks like there are no other changes.

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. KIRBY: There is a relatively minor change in Transportation and

Communications.

School Supplies, 3.1.04, page 15.7 at the top. The amount that was budgeted

in 2012-2013 compared to what was spent was $50,000 less, but in the coming year

there is quite a significant reduction in the projected expenditure for school

supplies or the proposed expenditure.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, that is the skilled trades and technology initiative.

That would have been funding for equipment and whatnot that has been all

outfitted now.

MR. KIRBY: All outfitted with what sort of equipment are we talking

about?

MR. JACKMAN: Those are the saws and the things around that they use for

robotics and all these types of things. This was brought in incrementally, so

now the schools are fitted out. The funding that is there will still provide for

if there are things that are required.

MR. KIRBY: How does the department account for depreciation of the value

of equipment like that?

MR. JACKMAN: That is one I do not know. When they wear out, we replace

them.

CHAIR: Brad Clarke.

MR. CLARKE: Major pieces of equipment would have warranties and service

like that. Smaller pieces, a handsaw, a hammer, and things like that, we would

replace when necessary. Different than a textbook, they would have quite a long

life.

MR. KIRBY: So when you are accounting for assets the Department of

Education has in schools for trades and technology education, it is the larger

pieces of it there are no lathes, I assume, in schools. There would be some

sort of occupational health and safety questions around that.

MR. CLARKE: Now, any piece of equipment we would send would have

extensive safety programming and the school would have been inspected to make

sure it has the space, the ventilation, and things like that. What we account

for would be big items, but as well it is down to the smallest chisel. We could

say what school and what year it was shipped.

MR. KIRBY: Has the department at all considered efficiencies that could

be achieved by co-operating with community college or College of the North

Atlantic campuses that are proximate to them? There are a number of campuses and

we have made significant investments in college-level trades' infrastructure

since 2003.

CHAIR: Question, Dale, please.

MR. KIRBY: Has the department considered the efficiencies that can be

achieved by co-operating with College of the North Atlantic in delivering those

programs? Are there any discussions over that?

MR. JACKMAN: If you go to most of the trade colleges now, the number of

students who are enrolled in them, the demand that is on the equipment at that

school is in full use. I think the biggest co-operation that we have had with

the colleges and Brad can speak further to it would be around transitioning

into those schools, offering as much programming as we possibly can.

You are talking about efficiencies in terms of equipment?

MR. KIRBY: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: I do not know.

CHAIR: Brad Clarke.

MR. CLARKE: In the very early stages we explored that, but you will find

that the use and not only the amount of use but when our students would use it

versus when their students would use it, there is a lot of conflict there, so it

more appropriate and efficient to actually supply.

The second thing, though, just to comment on co-operation, we certainly have

partnered with instructors and offered sessions for students and school trips

and things like that to automate the skilled trades program.

CHAIR: Okay.

Dale, I am going to hold you there, hold your thought.

Jim, you ended at 3.4.01, Student Testing and Evaluation. I am sorry, 3.4.03,

Educational Programs, Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, 3.4.01, where it says Salaries, who is that for?

What people are they?

MR. JACKMAN: Salaries?

MR. BENNETT: Yes.

CHAIR: Are we talking 3.4.03.01, Salaries, Jim? Just to clarify.

MR. JACKMAN: Are you looking at line 1 under 3.4.03?

MR. BENNETT: (Inaudible) $1,261,500.

OFFICIAL: Page 15.11.

CHAIR: Page 15.11. Okay.

Minister, 3.4.01.01, Salaries.

MR. JACKMAN: Testing and Evaluation; you are asking who?

MR. BENNETT: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Those are the salaries of the people who are under our

department division under Student Testing and Evaluation.

MR. BENNETT: Are they teachers, or psychologists, or vocational

assistance people? What are they actually doing?

MR. JACKMAN: Janet there is something interfering with it. That is your

BlackBerry, I would say.

MR. KIRBY: It is too close to the microphone.

CHAIR: Jim, you have the BlackBerry too close to the mike.

MR. BENNETT: I will turn it off.

CHAIR: Okay.

Janet Vivian-Lee or Walsh. Where was I that time, I wonder? Sorry.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: That would be the salaries of the people in that

department. You are looking at the $1,443,400 there for 2012-2013, Mr. Bennett?

MR. BENNETT: Yes.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: That would be for the salaries of people in that

division. They would be involved in preparing the public provincial assessments.

There would be statisticians. They would be involved with the CRTs, as I say in

terms of statistics, the AGR and all of that.

Included in that number, however, is some severance and leave for redundancy

for a person who left last year as well, that would account for the increase

there. Those are the types of people who work in the department of testing and

evaluation.

MR. BENNETT: Do they work in the department in St. John's or at the board

level?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, in St. John's.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Yes, they do, in St. John's.

MR. BENNETT: How many people are in that group?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: How many people in that group? There would be

approximately nineteen.

MR. BENNETT: Is there any change to that number?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Any change to that number? Sorry, Minister.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, well I mean you saw the reduction there in 2013. We

have taken out a Senior Policy, Planning and Research Analyst position and a

Clerk III position.

MR. BENNETT: Is that one position?

MR. JACKMAN: Two.

MR. BENNETT: Two, okay.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: Was that just in the ordinary course or was it budget

related to downsize? What generated the decision?

MR. JACKMAN: It was a review. When went through this exercise we said we

were going to take a look at our own department to see where we could find

efficiencies. This is one area that we took out a Senior Policy, Planning and

Research Analyst position and a support clerk position.

MR. BENNETT: Line 05 says Professional Services, what sorts of

Professional Services are there?

CHAIR: Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: The professional services that would be included in that

would be the marking of the provincial assessments in the summer months. The

public exams as well would be included in that, as well as the professional

services for the translation services, supervisors for the GED, and the cost for

the international assessment PIRLS.

MR. BENNETT: Would these then be staff or contract?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: The marking pieces would be teachers in the summer who

would be involved in the marking so you are paying them additional it is

outside of their regular work time that you would be paying those. The GED

supervisors, they would be people paid to supervise the testing of the GED.

There are also translation services that sometimes needed outside as well,

contracted.

MR. BENNETT: The next category below says Professional Development.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: What is delivered under Professional Development?

MR. JACKMAN: That is the programming. That is teacher professional

development around implementation of new courses, new curriculum. That is

basically what it is.

MR. BENNETT: This has Allowances and Assistance; the amount has gone

down.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: Shouldn't it go up year over year, just with ordinary

inflationary pressures?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, what we have done is that some of our implementation

does not always proceed as it would and there is certain programming that we are

just slowing down the pace of implementation. I think one is Grades 3 health.

Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: There is K-6 technology, high school world geography,

the primary phys. ed., and there is one other just one second, Mr. Bennett; I

have it here. There are four. So there is tech ed. K-6, phys. ed. 1-3, the

intermediate communications technology 7-9, and World Geography 3200 and 3202.

MR. BENNETT: This is Professional Development or instruction delivered to

groups of teachers who teach (inaudible)

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: These would be delayed, so we would not need as much of

the Professional Development. Also, because there are fewer teachers, it is a

natural reduction as well.

MR. JACKMAN: It is the Professional Development for the sessions they

would hold a session on the Burin Peninsula, maybe, and another one up on the

Northern Peninsula.

MR. BENNETT: Are they done in a regional setting, board setting,

district, or something else?

MR. JACKMAN: Having been in the system, you can have some of them that

are offered locally and you may have the person who is delivering the in-service

coming into a particular area. You may also have some of the teachers who would

travel to a particular area. So it would vary.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Just for clarification, the ones who are going ahead are

The ones I mentioned before, just for clarification, are the ones that are

deferred.

MR. BENNETT: I think I probably know less now than when I asked before.

Is this for new programming?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, for example, world geography; there is a text and

resources in place right now. What we would be doing, we were going to be

bringing forward a new world geography. So that piece of implementation will be

proceeding as was in the past.

In terms of how it is delivered, which was your original question, we have

people who are the departmental level and we have people who are at the district

level, the professional staff, who would deliver the in-service. I, as a

teacher, would attend that, or the person at the department or at the board

would come to my school or my area and deliver it.

MR. BENNETT: Say under world geography, I pretty much agree that the

globe is still the globe, but does this integrate things like different

countries because of geopolitical changes, climate change, and that sort of

thing?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: So obviously because the factual basis has evolved, you need

to catch up with it.

MR. JACKMAN: Your point is?

MR. BENNETT: Is that the type of change or is that the type of updating

curriculum that is delivered?

MR. JACKMAN: Curriculums are delivered through provided outcomes. Now, I,

as a teacher twenty years ago, would have stuck strictly to a textbook and gone

page by page and question by question. Teachers are much more innovative now

with the use of technology and everything else, and both teachers and students,

I think, are more in tune with global issues. Their teaching is often catered to

a global issue, but there still would be structured outcomes that they would

follow.

MR. BENNETT: Thank you.

CHAIR: Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Thank you.

I am going to go to 3.1.05, School Services.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: "provide for the administration of services such as teacher

certification." What sort of work are people engaged in in teacher

certification?

CHAIR: Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Was the question what type of services they provide in

teacher certification?

MR. KIRBY: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Teacher certificates.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Yes, that is right. They have to get their original

certification. Teachers that have just graduated would apply for their original

certification. Sometimes they want to upgrade as well, and they go back and do

upgrading, and they would apply for the next level of certification and we would

provide that service as well once everything is analyzed.

MR. KIRBY: In other provinces in the country, and other jurisdictions

and I will not belabour that teacher certification is handled by an external

agency, an independent body. Has there been any discussion of (inaudible)

MR. JACKMAN: We have looked at it and I believe it was BC

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: that moved that way, but they have since moved back. So we

have explored the option. We have not moved there yet, but we have still been

looking at it.

MR. KIRBY: There are professional and sort of

MR. JACKMAN: Well, there are professional bodies like lawyers and that

type who administer through their own associations. We have been pondering it,

and we have checked with some other jurisdictions. Some continue, and some went

there and are moving back, but we have not made a final determination on it yet.

MR. KIRBY: So have you looked at Ontario and what they are doing? Because

they have what seems to be a fairly good model, I think.

MR. JACKMAN: Well, like I said, we have explored other jurisdictions. It

is just that we have not

MR. KIRBY: Have you looked at the amount of money that could be saved

here by doing it, if any?

MR. JACKMAN: That is the reason for the analysis, to see if we can do it

more efficiently.

MR. KIRBY: Because there are other reasons on top of that, outside of

dollars and cents, for doing it.

MR. JACKMAN: What would the other reasons be?

MR. KIRBY: Well, we often hear arguments from constituents, members of

the public, or complaints that an individual's certification level or their

expertise was not appropriately appraised at the school level when they were

hired, and there are often questions around whether there are nepotistic

practices in hiring, which I often dispute.

A lot of this is anecdotal, but I think that moving to an arm's-length

certification process with additional levels of qualification, et cetera, like

they have in jurisdictions like Ontario, might be able to move the ball further

away from principals, and further away from the Department of Education. It

could save the taxpayer money, but it could also save principals a lot of grief.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, but I have my own mixed opinions on it. I cannot commit

to anything other than we are reviewing it. Like I said, we have looked at

jurisdictions that have it, are continuing with it, others that have moved there

are moving away from it; therefore, I cannot really give you a final

determination on that.

MR. KIRBY: I would be happy to provide you with any advice that could

(inaudible) in regard down the road.

MR. JACKMAN: I know you will provide it to me.

MR. KIRBY: Okay; and I am serious about that.

Under this line, under Salaries, 01, it is $108,000 less.

MR. JACKMAN: We have taken a position out of that. We have taken out the

Senior Policy Analyst.

CHAIR: Subhead 3.1.05. 01, Salaries.

MR. JACKMAN: The $529,000?

CHAIR: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: We have taken out a Senior Policy Planning and Research

Analyst.

MR. KIRBY: If you look at Supplies, Purchased Services, and Property,

Furnishings and equipment all together, it is sort of little or nothing I would

call it, very little, in the case of Supplies but nothing spent in previous

years under 06 and 07.

MR. JACKMAN: Line 06 and 07.

MR. KIRBY: Purchased Services, and Property, Furnishings and Equipment:

There was nothing budgeted and nothing spent.

CHAIR: Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Basically that budget was re-profiled in other areas

more so to right size things for the object budgets. They are just estimates.

MR. KIRBY: They are just estimates?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Under 3.1.06, School Facilities Alterations and Improvements

to Existing Facilities, I believe Mr. Bennett has already asked some questions

about this line or maybe it is the next one. There is a reduction under

Professional Services of almost $1.9 million.

CHAIR: Minister.

MR. JACKMAN: We have had some modular classrooms that are $2.1 million

and that has been transferred to capital. This is one where you are going to

find that money is transferred from one and carried over because this is our

repair and maintenance budget. You come upon a situation in Torbay that needs

two modular classrooms, so it will come from Purchased Services and go to

Professional Services as such.

MR. KIRBY: So just to go on that a little bit for the interest of detail,

two modulars at Holy Trinity?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, we have a list here of modulars that are going to be

put in place this year.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Two for Holy Trinity, two for Holy Family, and you have

two for Portugal Cove-St. Phillips, Beachy Cove.

MR. KIRBY: Portugal Cove-St. Phillips, two modulars there; has the

department secured lands for those modulars for Portugal Cove-St. Phillips?

MR. JACKMAN: This is the one in Beachy Cove, isn't it?

OFFICIAL: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Ingrid, do you want to speak to that?

MS CLARKE: These are two modulars for Beachy Cove Elementary and this is

to give the school some relief while the new school is being planned and

constructed.

MR. KIRBY: I understand the difficulty has been finding adjacent land.

CHAIR: Minister.

MR. JACKMAN: What we are doing is working our way through that now with

the town council there because there was an issue around water and space. So we

are working jointly with the council there to see if we can work that out. I

think we pretty well have it resolved.

CHAIR: Ingrid.

MS CLARKE: Yes, there is a site that is favoured by the town and is

favoured by the school district. The town is going to be meeting with the

department to discuss something they would like for us to do on the school site.

That meeting has not taken place yet.

MR. JACKMAN: (Inaudible) that has been an issue out there for a while.

So, with the new school being built this, of course, will be a temporary

measure. That is a good news story.

MR. KIRBY: Is it the expectation that all six of these modulars will be

in place for September?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR. KIRBY: Have they been

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. KIRBY: No, not for September?

MR. JACKMAN: Ingrid.

MS CLARKE: It will be approximately December before the modulars are

ready.

MR. KIRBY: December?

MS CLARKE: December, yes.

MR. KIRBY: For all of them?

MS CLARKE: Yes. That is what we are aiming for. That is our plan.

MR. KIRBY: Have these, sort of in layman's terms, been ordered yet? Has

somebody constructed them? Do we have a contract with somebody to build these?

CHAIR: Minister.

MR. JACKMAN: There is a company here that provides them, and we have been

able to get them on pretty short order.

CHAIR: Dale, have you got to clue up for this or (inaudible)

MR. KIRBY: No, that is fine.

CHAIR: Okay.

Jim.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, I would like to follow up on that Professional

Development category so I understand it better.

MR. JACKMAN: That was which? Okay, I got you.

CHAIR: Subhead 3.4.02, page 15.11, is that where we are to, Jim?

MR. BENNETT: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. BENNETT: Now, I understood you to say that some programming is going

to be deferred?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, what we are looking is that the pace of implementation

the areas that we are going to be continuing with the regular pace. The other

areas that were mentioned, we will be moving on with the planning and whatnot,

it is just that the implementation is not going to take place as quickly as is

MR. BENNETT: So, which ones are going to be slowed?

MR. JACKMAN: We have the skilled trade one in junior high, and in K-6; we

have the world geography in senior high; and there is one other it is the

physical education in Grades 1-3. Now, if you have been into a school from

Grades 1-3, you will see that physical education is continuing in the school. It

is just that the development and the implementation will not happen as quickly

as it would have.

MR. BENNETT: So the skilled trades for junior high, is that roughly Grade

MR. JACKMAN: Junior high is Grades 7-9.

MR. BENNETT: What does that include? What are they learning?

MR. JACKMAN: It is the communication technology. Do you want to speak to

that?

CHAIR: Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: It is communication technology, and I will let Brad

Clarke give you the specifics if you wish, Mr. Bennett, in terms of curriculum

pieces.

CHAIR: Brad.

MR. CLARKE: This program is modular in nature. That is why it is seven,

eight, and nine, as it offers schools the flexibility to offer it in Grade 7,

Grade 8 or Grade 9. The communication tech is extensively what it says, is about

computers and their use, putting them together; the beginning, I should point

out, of those sorts of topics.

MR. BENNETT: Is this working with hardware, not software?

MR. CLARKE: There is some equipment that would be necessary for it, as

well as tech resources.

MR. BENNETT: Is it one course for a term, one course for a year, or a

course over a few years? What period does it run for?

MR. CLARKE: We set it up for about twenty-five to thirty hours of

instruction.

MR. BENNETT: Okay.

For how long will it be deferred?

CHAIR: Brad.

MR. CLARKE: I do not want to embarrass anybody, but as soon as possible

when I can have the budget necessary to have that equipment in place. I would

anticipate next year. We finish mathematics in September 2013 and that is

significant cost for that program.

MR. BENNETT: The mathematics is being finished. What exactly is that?

CHAIR: Brad.

MR. CLARKE: In 2008, the Excellence in Mathematics initiative started and

we started an aggressive program of implementing new mathematics curricula at

each major level, so we started in Kindergarten, Grade 4, Grade 7, and Grade 10.

That process is now cluing up and the last courses, four of them in September

2013 for Grade 12, will be done. We have that purchased and planned and ready to

go.

MR. BENNETT: Does that then mean that they will be offered to all

students in all schools by then?

CHAIR: Minister.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, the implementation of that Excellence in Mathematics

program will be finished as of then.

CHAIR: Brad Clarke.

MR. CLARKE: Grade level? We are about to start Grade 10 next year, but

similarly two years ago, the department started an equally aggressive plan

CHAIR: Brad or Minister?

Minister.

MR. JACKMAN: That was my background, Jim. You can see that I am very

fluent.

MR. BENNETT: I would still have people spelling. I would still have them

spelling and grammar, punctuation and all of that stuff. You might be a little

more advanced than that.

into, we would call it, other ways of representing, the use of technology, and

how literacy has changed globally.

The broad context of Language Arts now is more than just reading and writing.

MR. BENNETT: Is this delivered by computers or on paper?

MR. JACKMAN: Again, education now is delivered through the development of

outcomes. We provide resources to schools, but the resources that teachers often

use may not be the ones that we are provided with. The important thing is they

aim to teach outcomes.

programs offered elsewhere?

CHAIR: Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: The mathematics program is the Western and Northern

Canadian protocol that is used in many provinces throughout Canada. We will, as

the minister said, finish that in Grade 12 this coming school year.

through the Atlantic Provinces. We are going to be continuing that with the

Grade 10 initiative as well.

CHAIR: Minister.

MR. JACKMAN: In place now you would have a Pan-Canadian science

curriculum, so you have moved broader to get in sync with other jurisdictions.

MR. BENNETT: Where I see the budget number lower, is that because of the

delay in PD for the teachers who would be delivering the programming?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: Hopefully, in a year, or however long, that will be picked

up and it will come back into the budget.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: If the math program is being fully implemented by the end of

this year, does that mean there will be savings in ongoing years?

MR. JACKMAN: What we have budgeted for is the continuation of that

program. If we are in this same format next year, then we would be able to

update you on a budget line as to where we are going with in-servicing of other

programs.

MR. BENNETT: Are there other areas of curriculum that you would like to

be delivering if you had the resources.

MR. JACKMAN: No, I do not think so. I think we have highlighted the areas

we wanted to remain very strongly focused on, that being the math and the

programs we have identified next that we want to work on.

MR. BENNETT: When you say work on, you mean bringing the teachers up to

speed with their professional development (inaudible)

MR. JACKMAN: No, this thing would be that while there is phys ed., for

example, continuing now in Grade 1 to 3, you will have an updated resource or an

updated list of outcomes, and then you would continue on with that in-service.

MR. BENNETT: Is it to be expected that as more teachers join the system

the ones who join the system might not need this PD? Is this something they

learn at university level?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, yes, there are things they learn at the university

level, but when teachers come into the system there is always upgrading and

in-servicing that has to be done. You have teachers who will move from one area

to another; then at the district level they will determine those educational

needs, put it forward, and we go from there.

MR. BENNETT: So this Professional Development budget, does that include,

for want of a better word, bringing each teacher more or less to the same level,

or is it more for bringing into place new curriculum for all the teachers?

MR. JACKMAN: As new curriculum comes into place, you have the

professional development. It is a way to continually keep teachers up to scratch

as to new initiatives that are out there. It can be from a variety of things,

from in-service with special needs to phys. ed., to a variety of things.

CHAIR: Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Thanks.

Going back to page 15.7, 3.1.06, School Facilities Alterations and

Improvements

MR. JACKMAN: Page 15.7.

MR. KIRBY: Page 15.7.

CHAIR: Subhead 3.1.06, Minister.

MR. JACKMAN: Alright, got it.

MR. KIRBY: There is a reduction of about $6.5 million in Purchased

Services, purchased from contractors, I assume.

MR. JACKMAN: Ingrid, I guess I can get you to speak to that because, to

me, the simplest way I could explain it would be that you are looking to do a

piece of work and it has not progressed to a particular stage, but I will let

Ingrid speak more to that.

CHAIR: Ingrid.

MS CLARKE: Could you just confirm which line item you are referring to,

Mr. Kirby?

MR. KIRBY: It is 3.1.06.06, Purchased Services. It was $24.8 million.

That is what was budgeted for 2012-2013 and now it is budgeted to be $18.3

million.

MS CLARKE: Okay. We took money out of our budget to fund the modular

classrooms, the new modular classrooms that the minister spoke about. We also

had a budget reduction of $5 million. There is some savings there of about

$300,000. We are going to do some work in-house, as opposed to using

consultants.

MR. JACKMAN: We reallocated the Davis school extension to four classrooms

he mentioned yesterday.

MR. KIRBY: Is there somewhere in the department or do you have on file

projections for future years' needs for modular classroom, modular extensions?

MR. JACKMAN: In this particular area in here, you make every projection

that you possibly can, but I do not think there is anybody in this division

and Ingrid has been around for a while would have thought that we were going

to see what is happening out in Torbay. I mean, development just took off. All

of sudden, you open up a new school and as soon as you have it open you are

looking at having to come up with two modulars, and two more now until the new

school gets built.

I am of the belief that we do not want a K-6 school or a K-7 school that has

some 1,200 students in it. We are aiming to have those primary-elementary

schools with students of around 600 or 650 type of thing. These are the numbers

that we are going with.

The reality is, in this particular area and around here, we need modulars

every now and then. I do not know if you have been in either one of them, but

the people who go in them sometimes want to stay in them. For some of us now I

am a bit older than you are; Jim might remember it when you think about

modular classrooms, you think about the old temporary classrooms that used to be

at the university. They were plywood floors and plywood walls and when you

walked on them you knew you were not on something solid, but these modular

classrooms are quite different than that.

MR. KIRBY: No principals have described them to me as desirable, but I

will not debate that with you.

I ask my question again: Is there a projection for the need for modulars for

the subsequent school year?

MR. JACKMAN: No, our projections now are on new school constructions.

CHAIR: Ingrid.

MS CLARKE: Recognizing what has been happening on the Northeast Avalon,

growth in a number of areas, we hired a consultant a couple of years ago to look

at CBS, Paradise and Portugal Cove-St. Phillips to try to be proactive. So we

studied those areas, we looked at the amount of infrastructure that was

available and what was going to be needed, based on enrollment projects, that we

hired the stats agency to perform for us. Based on that, we are building four

new schools in the Northeast Avalon: CBS, Portugal Cove-St. Phillips, Paradise,

and Torbay.

Hopefully, that work that will be done will help relieve the need for modular

classrooms, but we are still using some to try to deal with the overcrowding in

the interim. We are trying to be proactive. We did that piece of work on the

Northeast Avalon.

MR. KIRBY: Who was it that did the demographic projections, the stats

agency you referred to?

MS CLARKE: That would be the Department of Finance.

MR. KIRBY: That is who is doing the projections for

MR. JACKMAN: The projects are from the stats agency. Up until probably a

few years ago, the numbers would have been done by school boards and you are

looking at projections, but now the numbers are from the stats agency.

MR. KIRBY: I am wondering about the long-term impact or the impact of

demographic change in my own district in St. John's North coming up. Are there

demographic changes that will have an impact on either St. Andrew's Elementary

or Larkhall Academy that the department is aware of?

MR. JACKMAN: I will let him speak to it, but if you have the numbers that

warrant one, we will go after one for you. If you have the numbers to warrant

one, one will be built in your district.

I will let Ingrid speak to it.

MR. KIRBY: I am not talking about modulars, per se. I am just wondering

about fluctuations

MR. JACKMAN: No, you are talking about projections for students and

actual schools into the future.

CHAIR: Ingrid.

MS CLARKE: When we did the work with the consultants, originally the

Eastern School District had asked for a 5-7 school for Portugal Cove-St.

Phillips. Based on that work, we decided the best long-term solution would be a

5-9 school. That is going to free up space at Leary's Brook.

We realize that Larkhall is filling up from Kenmount Terrace area, so the

long-term plan in our discussions with the Eastern School District is that

Leary's Brook may be able to provide some relief. We are also, as you are aware

from the Budget, planning an extension to Elizabeth Park Elementary to also help

relieve some of the growth in the Elizabeth Park and Kenmount Terrace area.

MR. JACKMAN: (Inaudible) comes into play there.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

I move down to 3.1.07, then, which is on the next page. Feel free to tell me

if these questions have already been asked, but I do not think they have. Under

3.1.07.06, Purchased Services, it seems like an incredible amount of money.

Perhaps you have already explained this and I have missed it: $45.7 million

unspent.

MR. JACKMAN: Those are actual contracts that would have been awarded.

Some of the work tenders, the cost of the work, some of them may not be at the

stage we had predicted it would have been. Other capital moved. Some tenders may

have gotten delayed.

Ingrid can speak a little bit further to it if you wish.

CHAIR: Ingrid.

MS CLARKE: Yes, in some cases the work did proceed more quickly than we

had anticipated. In most cases, the work had proceeded not as fast as the

Department of Education and the Department of Transportation and Works

anticipated. That money will be carried over to this fiscal year. It is not a

change in budget; it is just a cash flow issue.

MR. KIRBY: It seems like quite a large sum of money. How many different

projects, then, are we talking about that did not proceed according to what was

planned?

CHAIR: Ingrid.

MS CLARKE: I do have the numbers here, but.

CHAIR: Minister.

MR. JACKMAN: If she does not have them, Dale, we can certainly provide

them to you.

CHAIR: Ingrid.

MS CLARKE: There would be many projects. There is a full page of them.

Okay, I found them. Thank you, Don.

The west end high school, for example, did not proceed as quickly. Davis

School actually proceeded more quickly than we anticipated, and Exploits Valley

High development slower.

Mr. Kirby, would you like the full list?

MR. KIRBY: I would like a copy of it, if it is possible. Maybe just the

list of projects, what the projected date was at the time. What the projected

date was in 2012-2013 and then what the revised timeline is. I am a bit

concerned that the interest of making announcements does not keep up with

CHAIR: Minister.

MR. JACKMAN: What we will do, then, is we will take this back with us and

see if we can refine it a bit to suit what you are asking.

MR. KIRBY: Yes, you can take out any proprietary information.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

CHAIR: Okay. Dale, I am going to hold you there.

Jim.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, I would like to go back to teachers again,

particularly in the professional development area. How many teachers are

employed teaching in the Province right now?

MR. JACKMAN: Fifty-four hundred.

MR. BENNETT: How many leave the system each year and how many come in?

MR. JACKMAN: We are looking at this year probably 500 to 550 retirements.

MR. BENNETT: How many new ones?

MR. JACKMAN: I do not know how to answer that one.

CHAIR: Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: There are approximately 550 who are eligible to retire.

That does not mean they will; thus, it is difficult to answer that question as

to how many will be new.

MR. BENNETT: So you need to wait and see if they elect retirement or not,

then you know if a vacancy comes up, then you advertise the position, and so on.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: That is correct.

MR. BENNETT: What does a person need to do to qualify to become a

teacher?

MR. JACKMAN: It is the requirement at the university. A Bachelor of

Education is where you go and you do your arts degree, you go and you do your

Bachelor of Education. You can then advance on to a Masters of Education. You

are graded until you are up to the seventh scale, Grade 7 on the scale.

MR. BENNETT: Is there any requirement to attend a teacher's college and

get a teaching certificate?

MR. JACKMAN: This is what comes out of Memorial. Once you graduate and

walk across the Arts and Culture Centre you have a degree that says you are

certified to teach education in this Province.

MR. BENNETT: Okay. In some provinces even after you get an education

degree or whatever you get in order to teach, to get a certificate to teach, a

teaching licence, you have to attend a teacher's college for a minimum of a

year. Do we have that sort of system in place?

MR. JACKMAN: No. Once they get their degree they are certified through

us, through teacher certification, and then you are qualified as a teacher.

MR. BENNETT: There is no specialized testing outside of getting the

university degree?

MR. JACKMAN: If I am doing an education course, there is the standard. If

I do not pass that course and there are certain requirements as to you are

graduating from Memorial with an education degree there are a certain number of

courses that you have. Once you meet that requirement, then you are certified

through the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador as a teacher.

MR. BENNETT: Is there a certain amount of student teaching required?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, there is.

MR. BENNETT: Is that part of the degree or is it outside of the degree?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, it is part of the degree.

MR. BENNETT: Is there anything outside of the degree that a person needs

to do to qualify to be a teacher in this Province?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. BENNETT: Has it ever been considered?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, I have not considered it. If we look at the teachers

that we have in our Province I think they are very well trained. Many of them

who choose to go to other provinces to teach, I have not seen anybody come back

to the Department of Education and say: What in the devil are you doing? Our

teachers are certified and well qualified.

MR. BENNETT: Do you know if teachers have gone to another jurisdiction

that requires a teaching certificate, they have automatically been permitted to

teach in those jurisdictions?

MR. JACKMAN: Sure.

MR. BENNETT: All Canadian jurisdictions?

MR. JACKMAN: I know that I did the second part of my program in Nova

Scotia and some of the folks who did programs with me stayed and taught in that

province. We have others who have gone across the country and have taught in

other jurisdictions. Nova Scotia wanted to keep me but I would not stay.

MR. BENNETT: Can you see the difference though, that in many professions

even after you graduate you have your formal academic part and then you need

your practical, which comes down to, for example, internships for doctors and

articles for lawyers. Teachers have no such thing as that.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, they do. Teachers do have the internship.

MR. BENNETT: Okay, outside of the degree?

MR. JACKMAN: It is within part of their program that teachers would go

and do an internship at a school for a full term.

MR. BENNETT: But not outside of the degree.

MR. JACKMAN: When they go outside of the degree they are working.

CHAIR: Jim, just in the interest, this is Estimates and these questions

I think we need to stay on task and we are focusing on Estimates. I am sure the

minister is more than willing to speak with you and discuss

MR. JACKMAN: I think you and I need a philosophical discussion on that

one.

MR. BENNETT: I appreciate, Mr. Chair, what you are saying; however, if

the minister says that brand new teachers who are certified to teach need

professional development and we are paying for professional development, then my

question would be: If they have a teaching certificate, why didn't they have the

professional development before they were hired?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, let's take me as a fifteen-year teacher. I have done

my training through university and we implement a new set of outcomes and a new

program, professional development around that. Department officials work closely

with the Department of Education at Memorial. Then we have as part of their

program they do an internship, and I think many teachers will tell you it is

probably one of the most valuable pieces of their entire degree program.

MR. BENNETT: There is no teacher's college in the Province?

MR. JACKMAN: No. There is, it is Memorial.

MR. BENNETT: That amount paid under Professional Development, Allowances

and Assistance, who receives that?

MR. JACKMAN: You are still under Professional Development?

MR. BENNETT: The $4,926,900, who receives those funds?

MR. JACKMAN: This is under Professional Development still?

MR. BENNETT: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: You are talking about 09?

MR. BENNETT: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: That is to pay for (inaudible).

Janet?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: The Province, the ministry gives days to the district,

allocates days to the district, of which the district then would allocate for

the different things to the schools. As well, we also have professional

development days that the ministry has when we sponsor and have teachers come in

as well, but a fair chunk of that goes to the districts.

MR. BENNETT: So it goes to the district. Is this to pay someone to

deliver the professional development?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: No.

MR. BENNETT: Is it for travel? Is it for - what?

CHAIR: Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Professional development, in terms of paying someone to

do it, it would be the regular job of either the Program Specialists who are

assisting with that, or the department personnel. So you would not be normally

paying anyone there to do that piece. In terms of cost for travel and things,

yes, the district would take care of the travel for their people, but we do

reimburse the districts for that travel when it is involved with new

implementations.

MR. BENNETT: So again

MR. JACKMAN: This is all part of what you are asking about here, line 09?

MR. BENNETT: Yes, because there is $4,926,000; I am trying to figure out

who gets it and for what reason.

CHAIR: Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: I just need to add one thing there, of course, depending

on how the professional development is done; it could also be to assist with the

substitute days. For example, if the district is offering a professional

development session and there are the math teachers from Grade 3 going, then

obviously the substitutes would be paid for, for somebody to be in that Grade 3

class, so the teachers could avail of that professional development.

MR. BENNETT: Okay.

Is that the same for the next line item: Grants and Subsidies?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Grants and Subsidies: The things that would be included

in that would be things like grants that we would give out to the Cultural

Connections Strategy, teacher professional development, the continuance in math

excellence strategy that would be a big one for us there ISSP training,

those kinds of things.

MR. BENNETT: Okay, so, again, who actually gets the money?

CHAIR: Minister.

MR. JACKMAN: The simplest way I can put it to you is that these two

categories would provide substitute time; they would provide travel and

accommodation, if needed

MR. BENNETT: So, are you saying both categories cover exactly the same

type of expense?

MR. JACKMAN: No. If you are looking at what Janet just mentioned to you

is that the grants and subsidies, we provide some funding to support the

Excellence in Mathematics program. We provide funding to support materials and

such for the delivery of the ISSP program.

MR. BENNETT: To whom? Who gets the money? I do not disagree.

MR. JACKMAN: It goes to schools and teachers.

MR. BENNETT: Is there a company hired to do it?

MR. JACKMAN: Oh, no. God, no; I get your point now. No, it goes to

teachers. If we have Excellence in Mathematics and we are supporting that, that

goes directly to teachers and students in the classroom, but there is no one

external to the Department of Education and the boards who would come out,

provide, and deliver program support through professional development. Now, from

time to time you might have a guest speaker.

MR. BENNETT: I do not have a problem with it. I am just wondering.

MR. JACKMAN: No, I did not know where you were going at first, but now I

understand where you are going. It took me this long to figure it out. Maybe I

am a slow learner. From time to time you might have an individual who is an

expert, say, in the math field; but the majority of this would go to teachers

for the in-servicing and for teachers and students.

CHAIR: Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Thank you.

Under 3.3.03 I am glad those are not sixes Supports for Deaf and Hard of

Hearing Students, Salaries, $37,300 less in 2013. Why?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, there was a vacant Interpreter position.

MR. KIRBY: Are you talking about sign language, ASL?

MR. JACKMAN: I am assuming, yes.

MR. KIRBY: The Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation, 3.4.03, that

is on page 15.12, Salaries. I think that was already answered. There is a

position eliminated?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, there is one position retiring there.

MR. KIRBY: What was the name of that position? What was the job title? Do

you have it?

CHAIR: Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: That was a Program Development Specialist position that

was eliminated.

MR. KIRBY: Are there still two Training Specialists?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: No, actually the two Training Specialists you are

referring to there were eliminated in the previous year and then this

particular was partially funded in 2012-2013.

MR. KIRBY: So those two Training Specialists were eliminated last year.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: That is correct.

MR. KIRBY: There is a total of $316,800 less.

MR. JACKMAN: Which line are you on?

MR. KIRBY: It is the total loss to the centre.

MR. JACKMAN: You are down in Total: Centre for Distance Learning and

Innovation. You are at the bottom line there, right, from $6.4 million to $5.6

million?

MR. KIRBY: It is more than that, in fact. I am just wondering: Regardless

of the exact figure, how is it that they are going to be able to meet the need

for new course development and delivery?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, if you look at line 03, Transportation and

Communications, what we have done is, we look at doing more of the professional

development and whatnot through virtual as opposed to travelling.

If we look at Supplies there, line 04, additional funds were required to

purchase distance education software that were unanticipated at the beginning of

the year; but if I look at line 05, we spent $41,000 this year and we are gone

to $28,000. CDLI is going to attempt to complete some of its professional

development services within the department.

Another area, like I just said, is about travel. We will see if we can do

more through virtual. We are going to reduce the amount of new equipment

purchases so that we will extend the refresh cycle. We are looking at doing more

of the work within.

MR. KIRBY: More with less?

MR. JACKMAN: More efficient.

MR. KIRBY: In 3.4.04, Early Childhood Learning, a $30,000 reduction for

Salaries in 2013.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, we had an Administrative Officer position that we are

going to reduce.

MR. KIRBY: Purchased Services are going up by $194,000, almost $195,000.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, that is the planned increase in the three-year Early

Childhood Learning Strategy you and I keep talking about.

MR. KIRBY: What is it we are purchasing?

MR. JACKMAN: I said that is the program you and I keep talking about.

MR. KIRBY: Yes, but what are we getting for $195,000? Mr. Bennett

believes it is blankies, but I just want to hear what the minister is saying.

MR. JACKMAN: Now, Jim, you give that up.

CHAIR: Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: That would be purchases related to our parent resource

kits. That would be part of that, as well as expenditures towards our early

literacy and other 0-3 initiatives. It is all part of the early learning

strategy.

MR. JACKMAN: Mr. Chair, I think I am going to provide one of those

blankies to Mr. Bennett, because they are very calming.

MR. KIRBY: Maybe if we have a filibuster again those might come in handy.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, that is a good idea.

MR. KIRBY: Then under 10, Grants and Subsidies, a $650,000 reduction in

2013, on the same line.

CHAIR: It is 04.10, Grants and Subsidies.

MR. JACKMAN: Okay, 10. Yes. One of the parts of the program we had

planned to do was that we were going to have the public libraries that were

going to be a part of the program. So we have decided to hold off on that for

right now, but it is something we hope we will be able to enter into before too

long.

MR. KIRBY: These were early literacy programs at public libraries?

CHAIR: Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: We are still going to be doing the pilot piece for the

early literacy programming. It is just in a reduced number of pilot sites.

MR. KIRBY: Can you give me an exact figure on what the reduction is? What

number versus what number? Is it our ninety-eight public libraries?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, it is $500,000. We were looking at moving ahead with

the pilot.

CHAIR: Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Just to indicate that there are twenty sites now as part

of the pilot.

MR. KIRBY: There are twenty now and that previously were all of them?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: No, there would not have been all of them. I

would have to get that number for you, but it is a reduced number, and the

amount is $500,000.

MR. JACKMAN: What we are in fact doing is

CHAIR: Minister.

MR. JACKMAN: reducing the size of the pilot.

MR. KIRBY: So, $500,000 is for that. Where is the other $150,000?

MR. JACKMAN: The other $150,000 that was a planned decrease, right?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Yes, that is a planned decrease.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, we had a planned decrease. I do not know who might be

able to speak. Paula is not here.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: There was a $150,000 planned decrease.

MR. JACKMAN: It was $150,000.

MR. KIRBY: For?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: It was a planned decrease, a forecasted planned

decrease.

MR. KIRBY: A planned decrease in?

MR. JACKMAN: Paula is not here, but I will commit to you, Mr. Kirby, that

I will get that information to you as early as tomorrow.

MR. KIRBY: A planned decrease in something?

MR. JACKMAN: Of $150,000, yes. Paula is not here, but I will get that for

you.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. I do not want to keep people here any longer than

necessary.

The next one I was interested in here, the public libraries, 3.5.01.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Was there any consultation with the provincial board outside

of staff on the reduction to libraries under Grants and Subsidies here?

MR. JACKMAN: We had spoken to members of the libraries board, yes. We had

asked them for just the same as we had asked other agencies. Just as we had

asked the school boards, we asked the public libraries board.

MR. KIRBY: One of the things I am interested in learning more about is

the precise impact on both library hours and library acquisitions.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Are there any figures available on either one of those things?

On how hours may be reduced and how planned acquisitions for the coming year may

be reduced?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. We have been in contact with the public libraries board

around that and we are working with them now to just work our way through that

so they can provide their notifications.

MR. KIRBY: So, am I going to be able to get that sort of a global figure,

rather than having to start the equivalent of a master's thesis project to put

that together?

MR. JACKMAN: Now, there is no need of you will get that and it will be

in very short order.

MR. KIRBY: You are going to be able to provide

MR. JACKMAN: You will get the information, either from me within very

short order or you will be hearing it publicly.

MR. KIRBY: Well, you are very co-operative.

MR. JACKMAN: I am telling you, I am a good guy.

CHAIR: Jim.

MR. BENNETT: Minister, I do not see anywhere in the Estimates the

provision of maybe legal costs that people challenged the amalgamation. Is that

a consideration?

MR. JACKMAN: We have a particular school, community, that have entered

into a legal dispute and that will just work its way through the system.

MR. BENNETT: I understand that particular school, but if there is a

challenge to the Schools Act. I think you said you do not intend to amend the

Schools Act in order to consolidate the boards. Do you have a legal opinion on

that? Can it be done or not?

MR. JACKMAN: If we can yes, we do.

MR. BENNETT: Are you prepared to provide it?

MR. JACKMAN: I cannot see why not. I do not see any reason why not.

MR. BENNETT: Does the board carry out any sort of other communication

services that will include polling?

MR. JACKMAN: The board?

MR. BENNETT: Yes. I am sorry, not the board, the department.

MR. JACKMAN: Do we do polling?

MR. BENNETT: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. BENNETT: The committee or the transition team, are they provided any

sort of remuneration?

MR. JACKMAN: No, these are trustees from the existing board.

MR. BENNETT: I understand a new CEO is being advertised for.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. It closes on May 10.

MR. BENNETT: It closes on May 10 for applicants?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: When do you expect a decision will be made?

MR. JACKMAN: I do not know when the decision will be made but,

personally, I would like to see it filled as quickly as we possibly can, because

that individual is going to be the person who is going to be heading up this one

MR. BENNETT: Do you have a job description for that person?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: Will it be for a limited length of time or is it open-ended?

MR. JACKMAN: To fill the position?

MR. BENNETT: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Are you talking specifically about the contract?

MR. BENNETT: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: It is five years.

MR. BENNETT: Is this person seen to be the CEO for the school board

itself?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: Will this be the equivalent to the other Board Directors of

Education that you previously had? Would it be the same role?

MR. JACKMAN: Have you seen the ad?

MR. BENNETT: I have not.

MR. JACKMAN: It probably might be an idea if we could get you a copy of

it. Rather than me go into all of the details of it, why don't we provide you

with a copy of the ad.

OFFICIAL: I have it.

MR. JACKMAN: She has a copy of the ad.

MR. BENNETT: What would you see as the role of the new board?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, it is funny, whenever you sit down around education

tables and whatnot, the number one for me is student achievement. The very first

thing we talk about in education is the student: that there are safe schools,

that they have a quality day when they enter into those building, and it is

ultimately about students achieving in the good atmosphere that a school should

be.

MR. BENNETT: Would you see it as a responsibility of the board to recruit

the CEO?

MR. JACKMAN: In this particular case, we will put together a team of I

think we are looking at five individuals right now who will make up that hiring

team.

MR. BENNETT: Do you anticipate that at some point there will be an

elected board?

MR. JACKMAN: That is what we are continuing to say, that this group will

be in place until that transitioning piece is done and then we are looking to

move to an elected board.

MR. BENNETT: How long do you expect the period to be until there is an

elected board?

MR. JACKMAN: I cannot give an exact date. I think I said in the last

session I have learned in politics not to give a particular date because we do

not always meet those dates. We have now the transition Chair who has already

made contact with the trustees, hoping to pull them together as early as next

week, for the first face to face.

These folks are going to have a lot of time that is going to be consumed by

this over the next few months. As soon as we can get this in place we will, but

I think the important thing for people to realize is that as of August 31, the

boards, as they presently exist, will become defunct and the people who are in

place then will make up that transition board until we get to the elected

process.

MR. BENNETT: So, would it be the department's intent to have the board

elected at the same time as municipal elections are carried out?

MR. JACKMAN: That has been the case, but it does not have to be. So, we

have discussed that, if it is possible, could we have one in the spring, for

example. We have not decided on that, but those are all the things that we are

looking at.

MR. BENNETT: When the trustees do you think they will be elected at

large or will they be from various parts of the Province, or how will it work?

MR. JACKMAN: That is something that will be worked through by the

transition team. That will be part of their role in their planning to develop

we want to make sure that we have effective representation. These are the folks

who are presently trustees. Boards, as they were, are still in place. These

trustees who are serving on the transition team will certainly speak to their

counterparts who are in the existing boards and from that then we will come up

with the best way that they can figure out to get effective representation.

MR. BENNETT: Would you consider having maybe a specialized position or

positions on the board, for example, a representative for Aboriginal education?

MR. JACKMAN: We have had some discussions around that. We have had some

representation made by Nunatsiavut. That is something now that will become a

part of this transition team's mandate, is to take a look at those types of

issues. Again, we want to have representation to the best that we possibly can.

MR. BENNETT: Now, in addition to Nunatsiavut, there are a significant

number of people who have Aboriginal status.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: Now a much greater number than Nunatsiavut, and they are all

over the Province.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: So, would you consider having an Aboriginal representative

for people who are maybe the landless group?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, I mean

CHAIR: Minister, just excuse me. This is straying away a little bit from

Estimates, and I have been fairly

MR. JACKMAN: My comment to that would be the transition team and if

this is something that you have a particular interest in, I would ask you to put

something in writing to the transition committee and then all of those things

are going to be up for consideration.

is to save money, have you considered also collapsing the French board and just

have a division within one school board?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, we thought about that, but the advice was that, at

present, we maintain the two boards.

MR. BENNETT: Could you see additional savings by having just simply one

board?

MR. JACKMAN: This is not all about savings. This is about using your

dollars as effectively as you possibly can.

MR. BENNETT: Isn't it inconsistent with savings? If you save to go to one

MR. JACKMAN: Well, I said the opinion to maintain the French board cost

us an additional $377,000. So based on the advice at present, is that we

maintain a separate French board, which we have.

MR. BENNETT: In addition to the French board, I understand the cost per

French student is more than $25,000 per year?

MR. JACKMAN: I do not know. I have not seen that one.

CHAIR: That being said, it is 6:58 p.m., Minister, I know you have to be

out of here by 7:00 p.m.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

CHAIR: I want to thank you and your staff for your time. I want to thank

you for returning tonight to continue the Estimates.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

CHAIR: I want to thank Dale and Jim, and the Committee.

I am now going to ask the Clerk to call the first subhead.

CLERK (Ms Hammond): Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 carry?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those opposed?

Carried.

On motion, subhead 1.1.01 carried.

CLERK: Subheads 1.2.01 to 3.5.01 inclusive.

CHAIR: Will subheads 1.2.01 through 3.5.01 inclusive carry?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those opposed?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Nay.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.2.01 through 3.5.01 carried.

CLERK: The total.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Opposed?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Nay.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, Department of Education, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates of the Department of Education

carried without amendment?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those opposed?

Carried.

On motion, Estimates of the Department of Education carried without

amendment.

CHAIR: I want to thank all of the Committee members for their time this

evening.

I am sorry - Kimberley keeps me on track - you have in front of you the

Social Services Committee minutes of April 29 for the Department of Justice and

Labour Relations Agency.

Can I have a motion to approve the minutes?

Mr. Cornect.

MR. CORNECT: Mr. Chair, there is an error on the Committee minutes of the

Justice department. MHA Pollard did not substitute for me. I was here at the

meeting on Monday night.

CHAIR: I believe the substitution was for Mr. Crummell. So if we could

make that correction. With that correction being made, that Mr. Pollard

substituted for Mr. Crummell and Mr. Cornect was present, can I have a motion

now to approve the minutes of April 29?

MR. CORNECT: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. Cornect.

Can I have a seconder, please?

Mr. Little.

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as amended.

CHAIR: Can I have a motion to adjourn the Social Services Committee

meeting for tonight?

MR. LITTLE: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. Little; seconded by Mr. Pollard.

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

Good night, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you very much for your time.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.