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November 23, 2016

41st Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2016-Nov-23 (PDF)

L033 - Wed 23 Nov 2016 / Mer 23 nov 2016

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Wednesday 23 November 2016 Mercredi 23 novembre 2016

Orders of the Day

Putting Consumers First Act (Consumer Protection Statute Law Amendment), 2016 / Loi de 2016 donnant la priorité aux consommateurs (modifiant des lois en ce qui concerne la protection du consommateur)

Introduction of Visitors

Report, Financial Accountability Officer

Elizabeth Joan Smith

Oral Questions

Fundraising

By-election in Sudbury

By-election in Sudbury

Energy policies

Climate change

By-election in Sudbury

Poverty reduction

Climate change

Mercury poisoning

Municipal government

Government advertising

Health care funding

Indigenous relations

Highway improvement

Hydro rates

Ontario budget

Visitors

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

Services for the deaf

Child care

Pedestrian Sundays in Kensington Market

North Bay Santa Claus Parade

Violence against women

Anti-bullying initiatives

PKU treatment

Sistering

Reports by Committees

Standing Committee on Regulations and Private Bills

Introduction of Bills

Safe Roundabouts Act, 2016 / Loi de 2016 sur la sécurité des carrefours giratoires

Representation Amendment Act (Wahnapitae First Nation), 2016 / Loi de 2016 modifiant la

Loi sur la représentation électorale (Première Nation de Wahnapitae)

Trans Day of Remembrance Act, 2016 / Loi de 2016 sur la Journée du souvenir trans

Petitions

Hydro rates

Air-rail link

Go Transit

Taxation

Logements pour personnes âgées

Government services

Domestic violence and sexual violence

Sexual violence and harassment

School closures

Komoka Provincial Park

Wind turbines

Privatization of public assets

Energy policies

Orders of the Day

Building Ontario Up for Everyone Act (Budget Measures), 2016 / Loi de 2016 visant à favoriser l’essor de l’Ontario pour tous (mesures budgétaires)

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

Orders of the Day

Putting Consumers First Act (Consumer Protection Statute Law Amendment), 2016 / Loi de 2016 donnant la priorité aux consommateurs (modifiant des lois en ce qui concerne la protection du consommateur)

Resuming the debate adjourned on November 21, 2016, on the motion for second reading of the following bill:

Bill 59,

An Act to enact a new Act with respect to home inspections and to amend various Acts with respect to financial services and consumer protection / Projet de loi 59, Loi édictant une nouvelle loi concernant les inspections immobilières et modifiant diverses lois concernant les services financiers et la protection du consommateur.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate?

Mr. Rick Nicholls: It’s my pleasure to rise today and to add my remarks to Bill 59, the Putting Consumers First Act. Doesn’t that title imply that consumers are currently not put first in Ontario?

But in all seriousness, Bill 59 does seek to make amendments to three acts impacting payday lending: the Payday Loans Act, the Collection and Debt Settlement Services Act and, finally, the Consumer Protection Act.

Before I discuss some of the specific changes found within this bill, I would like to discuss a bit of the background on this in general. Payday lending is a much riskier business than traditional lending as no credit check is required. It means that you can borrow money until your next payday as long as you have an ID and a pay stub. Banks and other financial institutions shield themselves from credit risks to a much higher degree than payday loan institutions. The end result of this is lower fees for borrowing and lower fees in general for customers than what is seen at payday loan facilities.

However, this also means that some individuals are not able to borrow money from what we are privileged enough to call “traditional institutions” and instead have to look elsewhere. They often have nowhere else to go other than payday loans.

As a result of taking on higher risks, 10% of payday loans must be written off. That is a substantially higher percentage than traditional banks deal with.

Currently, the payday lending industry is regulated through a maximum fee on a payday loan. The maximum fee is no more than $21 on each $100 borrowed. Although the fee would translate into a very high annual interest rate if a regular loan had the same terms, a payday loan is for a maximum of two weeks and the interest is never compounded.

Bill 59 seeks to make some amendments to the Consumer Protection Act with the intention of helping vulnerable Ontarians. What we do not want to see is the unintended consequence of hurting vulnerable Ontarians as a result of these actions.

The bill would grant the Minister of Government and Consumer Services the power to regulate payday lenders by:

—determining which factors a lender must consider before extending credit;

—capping the amount of money that can be borrowed;

—forcing a disclosure in writing of the evaluation of factors affecting a lender’s decision to issue credit;

—banning lenders from contacting customers to offer refinancing; and finally

—prescribing a grace period for rent-to-own contracts.

The thinking behind the first regulatory power, forcing payday lenders to take more factors into account before extending credit, is that certain people should not be eligible for loans because they are vulnerable to getting caught in a cycle of being unable to pay. But is it necessarily helpful to take away the one option that some people have for emergency loans? People seeking these loans are often faced with a very difficult situation where they would be in a world of trouble if they cannot find a bit of extra money quickly.

It’s hardly compassionate to take away the last resort for someone who, for example, may be about to be put out on the street if they cannot make rent that month. Or what about someone whose electricity may be turned off if they cannot pay skyrocketing hydro bills? The unfortunate reality is that many of these people are simply trying to survive day to day, or week to week, and just don’t have the luxury of being able to plan in advance.

It has been suggested that those who frequently resort to payday loans need to receive credit counselling. Simply limiting their access to payday loans doesn’t solve the underlying problem. Part of the problem is that a massive number of good-paying jobs have left the province of Ontario while this government has been in power. I’ve seen that personally in my riding of Chatham–Kent–Essex, as well, where we have lost thousands of manufacturing jobs alone over the last decade. Many of the jobs that are being created in Ontario are precarious jobs, meaning that many are working part time or on short-term contracts, so they are unable to properly plan and save for the future.

One of the things that I feel the government must do a better job of is ensuring that young Ontarians have strong financial literacy when they graduate from high school. Ontario students should be able to balance a chemical equation and balance a household budget. It’s a critical life skill that has not been focused on enough by our educational system.

A Global News story from late 2014 shed some light on this very issue: “A 2012 study by the Investor Education Fund found only 40% of participating Ontario high school students felt somewhat or very prepared to manage their finances after graduation, and roughly a quarter said their schools gave them most ... of the financial information they needed.

“Sixty-nine per cent said they thought personal finance should be taught in the classroom, according to the study, which was based on an online poll of 400 high school students.”

While there has been at least an attempt to teach financial literacy in Ontario, it’s simply just not getting the job done. In Ontario the focus in the classroom is largely on the math aspect of money management. But the math aspect is not the issue, in terms of learning how to deal with money properly. There are a lot of very smart people who are great at math but cannot keep a household budget. The concept that you cannot spend more than you make and the danger that comes from getting into debt are sadly lessons that we just don’t properly teach to our young people. Instead, we allow them to learn these life-altering lessons most often after trial and error.

Now, we all have a responsibility to ensure that citizens of this province don’t get trapped in a vicious, endless cycle of poverty, scraping to get by week to week. That includes doing what we can do to actually create good-paying jobs. That onus falls back on to the province, so that people are less reliant on payday loans and other types of borrowing. We certainly need to do a better job of teaching financial literacy, so people can know the risks ahead of time before they find themselves in a hole that they have no idea how to get out of.

As our critic noted, if there’s just one take-away from these debates, I hope that every Ontarian can start to take control of their credit file by requesting a free copy of their credit report from a major credit reporting company. You can request a free copy every six months. These reports describe our vital financial health statistics and are as important to your financial health as regularly seeing a doctor is to your physical health. You won’t know what the problems are unless you take a look. That’s something that is free for all Ontarians, and I hope that they can, in fact, take advantage of that.

I understand what the government is trying to do with the bill. They’re trying to protect the people of this province from getting caught in an endless cycle of debt and mounting interest payments. Perhaps they should reflect on that as the government debt continues to grow and interest payments continue to crowd out essential services and valued programs.

But in our desire to protect the most vulnerable fellow citizens, we may inadvertently be taking away the last hope for emergency funds for these very same people. Reducing consumers’ access to legal ways of obtaining emergency cash without providing them with a clear path to financial sustainability is likely to drive them to the illegal loan market, which is far more dangerous.

Mr. Speaker, at this point I would like to turn my attention to another area of this bill. I would like to take this opportunity to get this incredibly important story into the record. If any of my constituents are listening, it will, hopefully, help them protect themselves from potentially falling victim to a door-to-door scam. Surely there are some valuable lessons for people outside of my riding as well.

The following story appeared in the Blackburn News about one and a half months ago, on October 4, 2016. Entegrus is in my riding. “Entegrus Does Not Go Door-to-Door” is what it’s entitled.

“In light of some recent fraudulent activity, Entegrus is warning their customers to be careful with the information they provide.

“Director of corporate services Gary Symons says they have received a couple of reports from customers in the Parkhill area of door-to-door activity. He says there have been complaints of people posing as Entegrus employees, asking to see old utility bills.”

I quote—this is from Entegrus: “‘In no way does Entegrus go out asking for bills or anything like that,’ says Symons. ‘We don’t go door to door asking for anything, as far as sales or bills.’

“He adds, situations like this have come up in the past but it’s not necessarily a frequent occurrence or one that happens in only one area.”

He went on to say, “‘It seems to be sporadic ... There’s really no rhyme or reason, or schedule, if you will, on when this occurs.

“Symons is reminding Entegrus customers, it’s important to be careful with the information they provide and ask for validation from the people asking for documents.”

You know, Speaker, in the riding of Chatham–Kent–Essex—a great riding—we have a lot of seniors. A lot of times, these door-to-door people will take advantage of a senior. They will try the empathic approach of trying to win them over with “Here, I’m here to help you,” and so on. But in fact, when our seniors become vulnerable, they will show them their bills, and the door-to-door person will get the information that they want from that vulnerable senior. As a result, the senior finds themselves in some very serious hot water, as I would call it.

Mr. Speaker, let me reiterate that point again, because it’s a key point. For those of you listening in debate here in the Legislature, or perhaps you’re among the dozens of viewers watching the morning debate—maybe that should have been hundreds or thousands watching the morning debate, not just a few people—here’s what I have, for all of you listening and watching today: Please, be careful of the information that you provide, and ask for validation from the people asking for documents. If someone comes up to your door and asks to see your information, you can certainly ask them to present theirs before giving them any information. Even at that, I would say be very, very careful.

We all can agree that there are problems or concerns with at least some elements of door-to-door sales, at least among the bad apples that are doing things in an unethical way. A lot of times, I’ll see these people come to the door, I’ll look at them—and they may be considerably younger than I—and I might say, “Well, this individual is someone’s son or someone’s daughter. They’re just trying to make a living doing what they’re doing.” But it has to be ethical or else I’ll close the door. I might even report them as well.

What does Bill 59 do about this concern? The bill seeks to create a regulation-making power for the minister to void any contract entered into at the door or “any other prescribed place” for the supply of prescribed goods and services unless the consumer solicited the salesperson’s visit. It all sounds well and good but, of course, we do want people who are tricked into signing something that they do not understand to be able to save themselves a lot of lost money and, of course, heartache.

That said, the wording of the bill is a little concerning. What would this provision look like in practice? What does it mean to grant the minister the regulation-making power to void a contract entered into at the door or at “any other prescribed place” for the supply of prescribed goods and services unless the consumer solicited the salesperson’s visit? This part of the bill gives the minister a blank cheque to ban goods, services and places from the market. It is a case of massive overreach in dealing with a problem that should instead be addressed through education and awareness campaigns.

I would like to stress that the goal of the government here may be a noble one: to protect our most vulnerable citizens from unethical selling practices that could devastate their personal finances. I’m definitely on-board in that case. However, the attempts to solve the problem may create many unintended consequences, and this is perhaps an area of the bill that can be further studied at the committee stage. Perhaps it can be improved upon with consultation and friendly amendments. I’ll leave that for the members of the committee to decide.

Another topic Bill 59 seeks to address is home inspections. We all know that buying a home is the largest investment or purchase that most people will ever make. Buying a home is certainly the largest purchase that I’ve ever made, and it’s a purchase that can never be made lightly.

Many consumers rely on home inspection professionals before making this milestone purchase. Consumers often assume that anyone conducting home inspections is qualified to do so and are often surprised to learn that that’s not the case. Currently, there are no province-wide professional standards for home inspectors, nor is there any recourse for a consumer whose home is revealed to be in need of major work following the purchase.

As our critic noted, the Ontario Association of Home Inspectors has experience and expertise coordinating professional standards and education on a voluntary basis. We all hope that the new authority will at least draw upon this pool of knowledge, if not be based upon the association.

Groups such as home inspectors themselves are in favour of these initiatives, as are real estate professionals. Good home inspectors welcome the additional scrutiny that regulation will bring, as it will help separate them from fly-by-night home inspectors who are unqualified or even unethical: “High standards and a clear legal framework in the home inspection industry will ensure home buyers and sellers receive reliable, informative and professional advice when making one of the largest decisions of their lives.” That quote comes from the CEO designate of the Ontario Real Estate Association—otherwise known as OREA—Tim Hudak.

OREA was happy to be a member of the volunteer panel of experts who developed a report with 35 recommendations for the home inspection industry. Some of these recommendations were, in fact, incorporated into Bill 59.

On a bit of a side note, we know that the government wants to move forward with making home energy audits mandatory before individuals can sell their homes. Yesterday, in meetings with constituents in the real estate industry, the concern was raised that those conducting home energy audits would not be regulated, which could certainly lead to a whole host of challenges moving forward if each home is required to have an energy audit done.

OREA has suggested making an energy report part of the home inspection process. With the government moving forward with this bill to strengthen consumer protection through the regulation of home inspectors, perhaps this would be the way to go.

As I conclude my remarks, let me reiterate that there are many elements of this bill that we are, in fact, in support of. However, there are other elements of the bill that we have some questions about at this stage, and others that we feel may end up doing more harm than good.

In the case of payday lenders, reducing vulnerable consumers’ access to legal ways of obtaining emergency cash without providing them with a clear path to financial sustainability is likely to drive them to unlicensed, foreign lenders who solicit online, or to the illegal debt market, which is far more dangerous. I’m sympathetic to the concerns raised about people getting caught in a vicious cycle of payday loans, but is there a way we can address the known problems within the industry without taking away the ability for people with nowhere else to turn to come up with emergency cash?

Good intentions do not necessarily lead to good legislation. Creating new problems to solve existing ones could hurt those we seek to help. We need to ensure that the end result of this bill matches the intended goals of the government when it comes to protecting our most vulnerable citizens.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Miss Monique Taylor: Thank you to the member from Chatham–Kent–Essex for his view on Bill 59.

It was interesting to hear him speak about the concerns that they had regarding the portion on door-to-door sales. Personally myself, I’m glad that there’s going to be more input on behalf of the government—or somebody; somebody has to be in control of that. I know many times through my own office, we’ve had seniors, we’ve had people with disabilities, we’ve had all different types of stories where there has been someone at their door and they have forced them into signing a hydro contract or something into electricity; water heaters have been a big problem.

We’ve been able to look to the minister’s office to try to get some help, to try to get those contracts cancelled. It’s been a lot for my staff to have to do that work, timely, to try to stay on top of it. With there being implementation to help correct those issues—to make sure that there are safeguards for people when they have unsolicited purchases at their door.

The other thing that concerns me about Bill 59 is that it just doesn’t go far enough when it comes to payday loans. Eighteen dollars on $100 actually works out to 390% interest annualization. When our most vulnerable people are using that sector, we’re charging them the most interest, when it’s actually against the law to charge, I believe, over 60% interest. Here we have 390% interest, but because it’s worded differently, they seem to be able to find the loophole to do that.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Han Dong: Good morning, Speaker. I’m pleased to respond to the member from Chatham–Kent–Essex’s debate. I’m very pleased to hear that we’re actually going to have his support on this bill, Bill 59, Putting Consumers First Act.

This is a very important consumer protection bill. It talks about banning unsolicited door-to-door sales.

In my riding, similar to the member from Hamilton Mountain’s statement, my staff has been helping seniors. I have one senior who came in with liens put on his property because of two bills for a water heater upwards of five digits. It’s a bill over $10,000. Luckily, we were able to help this senior, along with help from his neighbour, to get those liens off. So this is very much needed in Ontario. No community is immune to this.

Also, this bill, if passed, will create a regulatory body for home inspectors. As you know, I introduced a private member’s bill to regulate home inspectors. With the changing landscape in Ontario, with the type of real estate transactions we’ve seen in the last 10 or 15 years, we know this service is so valuable to new homeowners because of a lack of experience. Now there is a regulated home inspection service in Ontario they can purchase for a small amount to make sure the investment they are making is exactly what they paid for, and not be caught in some surprises later on.

I ask all members to support Bill 59, which will put forward law protection for consumers.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Todd Smith: It’s a pleasure to bring some remarks on behalf of the comments from my colleague from Chatham–Kent–Essex on Bill 59, which touches a number of different areas of concern, from home inspections, door-to-door sales, collections, payday lending, and some other areas.

My concerns about Bill 59 are, while there are problems in all of these different areas that I’ve discussed, that sometimes the government tends to overreach in certain areas. I think there are some concerns when it comes to door-to-door sales, and certainly—obviously, as members have stated so far in debate this morning—there are some unscrupulous characters out there who are going door to door.

But this also can be a legitimate business, and it is an important employer in our area. I believe there’s $2 billion in economic activity that comes from door-to-door sales in Ontario and Canada. Not everybody out there is a bad apple. This kind of paints the whole industry as being bad. It gives the minister discretion to ban the sale of certain things, and I think that’s a dangerous road to go down. So we have to be careful in committee, as we develop the regulations and bring forward amendments on this bill, to make sure that we’re doing the best job that we can and putting forward the best piece of legislation.

Perhaps instead of spending as much money as the government is to promote certain programs that they feel are important politically, we could be using the money that they’re spending to promote some of the protection that already exists within the Ministry of Consumer Services. There are protections out there that I think a lot of homeowners and residents of Ontario aren’t aware exist. So when you do run into an unscrupulous character at the door who is trying to sell you a water heater or some kind of energy scam, you do have protections in place already with the Ministry of Consumer Services that you can access. A lot of people don’t know about that.

The other important thing is financial literacy. I don’t have enough time to go into great detail, but that would also impact some of the other areas.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Michael Mantha: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and good morning to you. There are two points that I want to bring up from the discussions that have been generated here this morning on Bill 59. One of them is that I’ve always been one to stand where I stand and give credit where credit is due. On this one, I want to give credit to our member from Kenora–Rainy River for her outstanding work that she’s done on the door-to-door sales. In our last sitting, she brought a bill forward in order to eliminate that, and she’s done a lot of the legwork.

It’s nice to see, although this is a government bill, that a lot of the work that she has done over the course of her job, and what she’s supposed to do, being responsible to her constituents—that some of that work is reflected in this legislation. So good on her for actually bringing that issue forward and seeing it now possibly come to fruition.

I agree with the member from Hamilton Mountain that we absolutely have to put some type of mechanism in place. I come from an area in northern Ontario where there are a lot of seniors who are there. These door-to-door salesmen go through a very aggressive training in trying to sell you on a vast amount of items: heating equipment, HVAC systems, air conditioners and water heaters. They’re very good at what they do.

These protections may start alleviating that because a lot of them get into these sales because they’re preyed upon, and now they’re in a position where they’re paying these ludicrous, high prices for these items that they basically don’t need. At the end of the day, they’re stuck paying this, and they’re limited in the income they have. What happens is they’re too proud to talk to their children about it to try and get some help to get out of this.

So it’s fortunate that when you do sit down with them, either after a Sunday afternoon mass, over at the Tim Hortons coffee or just sitting down and having a chat down by the park, that you’re able to pick up on that. That’s where my office has been successful in getting these individuals out of these contracts and providing them with help. So it’s nice to see that this is going to be included in here.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments. Oh, sorry, the member from Chatham–Kent–Essex has a two-minute response.

Mr. Rick Nicholls: Thank you, Speaker. I appreciate that. I want to thank, first of all, the members from Hamilton Mountain, Trinity–Spadina, my colleague the member from Prince Edward–Hastings, as well as the member from Algoma–Manitoulin for their insights and their comments with regard to Bill 59, the Putting Consumers First Act.

I mentioned earlier, Speaker, in my 20-minute leadoff this morning: Is it really putting consumers first? But there are components in this bill that I like and we like as a caucus; we really do. I try to stay positive on these things.

One of the things that I do like, as a matter of fact, is

schedule 1, which is all about the home inspector licensing. I think that’s a good deal. I think it’s a good idea because we don’t want to see people being taken advantage of. We also want to support collections and the cool-off period. I think that that’s also very, very important.

But my other concern is with regard to door-to-door sales. I’ve seen it all too often. As a matter of fact, I’ve had door-to-door salespeople come to my home and want to talk to my wife and I. Thank goodness I had the discernment to be able to say, “Listen, can you show me who you represent and how long you’ve been with this company? Tell me about your company,” before I sign any of those contracts they want you to sign. But the cooling-off period is something I think a lot of people may not be aware of, and, of course, they will never tell you about that. All they want is your signature on the bottom line. So I think there are some good things in there. I also talked about payday lending.

In just the last few moments that I have here I want to suggest something as well. Financial literacy is an important component that needs to be taught in schools. As I look around this Legislature today, I see some young people in our gallery this morning. These young people are tomorrow’s future. As a result, hopefully they will learn that financial literacy as well.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: Good morning. Thank you very much, Speaker. It’s always a pleasure to rise on behalf of my awesome riding of Essex and the good people of Essex, particularly on this bill.

Let me commend, first, the government for putting forward a bill that has some real, tangible effect and benefit. It’s a rarity that I’ve seen a bill that actually isn’t really completely 100% political or doesn’t have five poison pills in it somewhere. So I’m really happy to see a bill come forward that we can debate, we can talk about, and we can learn from each other. I’m learning from my colleagues here, and it’s collegial. It’s the way that I think this place should operate. So kudos to the government for putting forward something that we can all work towards.

So what does this bill do? It’s the Putting Consumers First Act, Bill 59—consumer protection. They put these cute titles in there, “Putting Consumers First,” so everybody is going to rally behind this bill and you’re going to have a tickertape parade after it passes. I doubt it. But I certainly believe that people will, in general, welcome some of the provisions of the bill. I’m going to give you a brief overview in the 20 minutes that I have here.

The policy objectives of the bill: Firstly, the bill creates a new administrative authority for home inspectors to set regulation and to establish mandatory licensing for home inspections in the province of Ontario. So this is cool and well needed. If you’ve ever purchased a home—certainly as a first-time homebuyer or, I would imagine, anytime you purchase a home—you want to know what the product is that you’re getting.

Unless you’re a qualified tradesperson or have expertise in the construction of a home and materials, you’re going to have a hard time finding the intricacies that could pose some risk to your investment. That’s why we hire experts to go through a potential home sale with a fine-tooth comb. In this case, they go through with thermal detectors to detect cold air penetration or warm air leakage. They go through your piping system with cameras to see if there are any leaks in your plumbing. They go through with high-tech mechanisms to detect the efficiency of your home.

This is an area that is really important, and it has become more and more high-tech. And it’s really good value; I mean, you pay $300 and it could protect you from making one of the worst investments and worst mistakes of your life.

In fact, Speaker, if you’ve turned on the TV any time in the last 10 years, you would have seen that Mike Holmes has made a career on television uncovering the failures of some home inspectors when they have worked for consumers. You’ll see Mike Holmes walk into a home on behalf of a family and pull apart one piece of drywall, take a look at the knob-and-tube electrical system, and inevitably you’ll see Mike Holmes say those words that we’ve all come to anticipate: “Rip it up. Tear it up. Tear the whole thing down.” Then, we’ve got half an hour of Mike Holmes putting up nice new stuff, the way it’s supposed to be done.

Certainly, we can trust Mike Holmes to do that type of inspection and to do that type of good work because the cameras are there and, you know, you’ve got a record. That isn’t always the case when home buyers require the service or use the service of home inspectors. Sometimes they miss stuff. Sometimes they aren’t actually qualified to do it. That’s why I think that this portion of the bill is much needed and should be welcomed by those who are in the industry as home inspectors: because it will legitimize that service, and certainly make it easier for people to be confident in what they’re purchasing.

The second part of the bill regulates a class of debt collectors that has not been previously captured under the Consumer Protection Act, 2012. That has to do with debt collected on contracts that would be signed through door-to-door sales. These are tied in; the third provision regulates and bans certain door-to-door high-pressure sales tactics.

On the surface, when we think about those high-pressure salespeople that show up at the door, they ask to see your bills and they tell you immediately that they can lower your electricity bills or your hot water bill. If you’ll just let them in the house and sit down with them, you know, “We can make life a lot cheaper for you.”

Of course, they understand that their message is a little bit easier to get through to people who are unsuspecting and may be vulnerable in that sense. So there is a predatory aspect to some of these tactics, and we have to be cognizant of it. We have to be vigilant for the sake of the people in our communities, because we have heard those horror stories of folks who have been taken advantage of and had liens put against their homes because they’ve entered into high-interest-rate contracts where they had no idea what they were signing.

So I get that. I welcome these provisions. I think it’s a good thing. I think it’s about time. But I do agree with something that my colleague from—

Miss Monique Taylor: Chatham–Kent–Essex?

Mr. Taras Natyshak: No, my colleague from Prince Edward–Hastings. You said something great, Todd. Let’s make sure that we’re not banning everybody that comes to the door, because I can remember—let’s see who remembers the Kirby vacuum salespeople. Did anybody ever have a Kirby vacuum salesperson come to their door? Did anybody sell Kirby vacuums?

Miss Monique Taylor: My mom bought a Kirby.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: Okay, these things were awesome. People would show up at the door. I remember the guy came to my mom and dad’s house, and we all—

Hon. Deborah Matthews: They’d vacuum your bed.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: They would vacuum your mattress and show you what they would pick up from that thing. You would never want to sleep on your mattress again. It would traumatize you. But these vacuums were real good. They’d vacuum your whole house. The vacuums, granted, were pretty expensive in the day. I think they were probably 600 bucks or something like that. Who could spend 600 bucks on a Kirby vacuum? But my goodness, they came in and you got a tangible product for a set price. There was no messing around. It was pretty cut and dried. We have to ensure that we don’t eliminate that portion of sales completely.

We can get anything on the Internet. We can research, and many consumers do their due diligence before they make a purchase. We could find a Kirby vacuum on the Internet, I’m sure. But more and more people want to have that human interaction. They want to talk to a real person about the product that they’re about to buy. It may be unsolicited, but consumers should be fully aware that they have no obligation to even answer the door, and definitely no obligation to invite people into their homes. So I think this is going to take some real nuancing on the part of the government, to find out how we protect consumers but we still don’t eliminate a really important portion of our local economies.

In the springtime, we’ll have students come out—an enterprising student in my community will buy an aerator for the lawn, and they’ll show up on the block with an aerator on a trailer and knock at the door and say, “I’m doing your neighbour’s yard. Would you like your yard aerated?” That’s when you’re reminded that maybe it’s time to get your yard aerated. We’ve got to ensure that they still have the ability to knock on our door and say—it’s unsolicited, but definitely providing a service that doesn’t have a contract that’s going to potentially lead you into losing your home.

So that part, again, I’m pleased to see happen.

The last portion of the bill sets forth some regulation of the payday loan industry. Mostly, it downloads powers to regulate the industry onto municipalities. What is a payday loan, and why have these types of loans exploded in our communities in Ontario and across the country? I think they are an indicator of the overall health of our economy. When you see an explosion of payday loans—the premise is that you’re going to bridge your income just until the next payday. That’s what they typically are. Well, that assumes that you have a payday at some portion of the upcoming week or month.

More and more, people who rely on these payday loans don’t have that stability of income. They’re part-time, precarious workers with no benefits. It is indicative of a vulnerable society and a vulnerable economy when you have an explosion of these types of lenders. The work that we should be doing here in identifying the perpetrators or the—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): I think we’ve got about eight sidebars going here, and I’m having trouble hearing the person speaking. So if we could cut it back a little bit, I’d appreciate it.

The member from Essex, continue.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: Thank you, Speaker.

The work that we should be focused on in identifying and addressing the predatory payday lending industry takes us back to Scripture: kicking the moneylenders out of the temple, as is stated in Scripture. This is the work that we’re doing. It’s good work, and it’s just work.

Let’s look at the whole problem. Let’s look at what types of jobs are being created out there in our economy. Are they full-time employment? Do they provide benefits? Do they allow people to sustain a decent livelihood and a decent standard of living?

I would say we are on the decline, and there are a whole host of factors that this government can do to make it better. There are things that they have done to exacerbate the problem. There are issues around multilateral free-trade agreements that have led to the degradation of our economy. This is a grand picture thing. This is on the macro level but, of course, this bill deals with the micro. It simply gives municipalities the ability now to identify where payday loan agencies and companies can set up and to potentially prohibit them.

There are many in our communities who have identified these issues for a long time. Our deputy leader, the member from Bramalea–Gore–Malton, has used a lot of his energy in this place to combat the issue of predatory payday lending. We welcome the initiatives on the part of the government.

There are people in our communities who are doing the work on the ground that we aren’t. I would point to the credit union industry in Ontario that has identified that they can play a role in supporting people who require these bridge loans, these small loans, in providing what would be a rational, reasonable interest rate, so a shout-out here to the Windsor Family Credit Union in my riding, WFCU, who just recently initiated a financial product called SmarterCash.

SmarterCash simply means that as a member of the WFCU, you can access a small bridge loan of $300 for $4.26, not the 20% interest rate that we’re seeing or, actually, the 390% annualization that we see through payday loan agencies—so something reasonable, something that doesn’t put people in the hole and doesn’t get them in this vicious cycle of not being able to get out of a payday loan. We definitely welcome that provision, but we do believe that the government could go further in supporting vulnerable people and protecting consumers.

Don’t take our word on it, Speaker. Take the word of Tom Cooper, who is with the Hamilton Roundtable for Poverty Reduction. He has been an outspoken critic of the payday loan industry and their predatory lending practices, particularly as it impacts low-income residents in Hamilton, as it impacts low-income residents in Windsor and in Thunder Bay and in Toronto and all parts around the province of Ontario. Tom has been critical of this government’s lack of action on this issue to date, and he doesn’t think this bill goes far enough. I would agree, certainly, on this provision.

Tom would like to see the government put a hard cap on the rates these payday lending agencies are able to put onto their loans, and he wants suppression and penalties for misleading industry advertising. Grudgingly, I believe Tom is supportive of at least this initiative.

Let me thank Tom for the work that he has done in advocating on this issue. I would agree: Why not a hard cap? Let’s realize that at some point the practice is not only predatory; it’s abusive. It doesn’t make economic sense for us and for consumers out there. We can do more. We can show leadership. We should show leadership. I think it would be welcome. It certainly wouldn’t be welcome by the payday lending industry; they wouldn’t be too happy if we did put a hard cap on it. But you know who would be? The vast majority of the province of Ontario and the people who require payday loans.

Is this the heavy hand of the government coming down on industry? You’re damn right it is. It should be, because these agencies are causing pain and suffering for people who are already vulnerable. We would call on the government to take a serious look at that. Let’s take a serious look at our overall system when it comes to supporting those who are disadvantaged and vulnerable.

I know the government has an initiative that, in conjunction with the federal government, is looking at a guaranteed annual income. I think it’s time to have that conversation. I think there are administrative savings there, but there are also pitfalls. We’ve seen some right-wing governments go down this same path, only to slash benefits for the most vulnerable and eliminate jobs in administration just for the sake of eliminating them, not because there was a redundancy, but eliminating the valuable work that public servants do in supporting low-income people in those jurisdictions. I don’t want to see that.

We certainly don’t want to see that. I don’t think Senator Hugh Segal wants to see that.

Interjection.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: That’s wonderful news. It certainly could go a long way.

On the other end of addressing vulnerable people and addressing poverty, I will give another shout-out to a wonderful group headed up by the impressive, fantastic Adam Vasey, who is a friend of mine, who I don’t get to hang out enough with, but I see the work he’s doing. Adam Vasey is an activist in Windsor who holds a law degree, who holds a master’s in social work and who has used his talents and his intelligence, and dedicated his life to helping address the issue of poverty.

He is an anti-poverty crusader in our community. He’s done a lot of work. Right now, he is helping to identify and to recognize employers in our communities that pay a living wage. Employers are clamouring to get in touch with Adam to say, “Hey, we’re paying a living wage.” In Windsor and Essex county—forgive me, Adam, but I think you’ve pegged the living wage at about $16.36. I hope I’m close; I don’t know why I’m so specific, but it’s around there. Adam is saying this is where we have to be. Pay a living wage. Allow people to have a sustainable income.

Hon. Ted McMeekin: He should run for public office.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: He should be the Prime Minister of Canada, is what he should be. I would champion his candidacy because he is on track, he’s on the right path and he’s reasonable.

The work that Adam Vasey is doing, and the Tom Coopers out there, can eliminate our need for payday loans completely. If we had an economy that took care of people and was sustainable, supported workers and provided benefits, and we didn’t rely on part-time, precarious work that gave no benefits, we would cure a lot of these socio-economic ills that we have to deal with each and every day.

That’s the big picture; that’s the job that I think we’re all tasked with to do here and to be cognizant of. I’m pleased to have the ability to do that on behalf of our party and on behalf of our constituents. I thank you for the time, Speaker.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Todd Smith): Questions and comments?

Mr. Vic Dhillon: Good morning, Speaker. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak on this bill, Bill 59, Putting Consumers First Act.

One of the things that we are attempting to do with this bill is to address the payday loans industry. Every day when I go home, I see this sign. It says, “$100 for $20.” Well, someone like me, who has a relative understanding of finance, knows that that’s too good to be true, but there are others in my community of Brampton West, which is a predominantly South-Asian-populated riding—people who are newcomers to Brampton and to Ontario who don’t know. They do fall for the harsh tactics, I would say, of these businesses.

They end up going in, thinking they are going to get $100 for $20, and end up signing a whole bunch of papers that they probably do not understand, which can often lead to financial ruin. I’ve had that situation brought to my attention many times, as I’m sure a lot of my other colleagues in this House have.

The other very important element of this bill is the banning of door-to-door sales. Again, I’m sure most of my colleagues have probably had constituents approach them with complaints of companies who have told them something, but have actually given them something else and have made them sign on the dotted line, which ends up with them being in debt for thousands and thousands of dollars. In some cases, we’re able to help them out, but in others, unfortunately, we are not.

So we’re going to go ahead and, with the support of the House, make sure that we address these very important issues.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member for Parry Sound–Muskoka.

Mr. Norm Miller: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m pleased to have the opportunity to respond to the speech from the member from Essex on Bill 59,

An Act to enact a new Act with respect to home inspections and to amend various Acts with respect to financial services and consumer protection.

I want to briefly talk about the home inspection part of that act. What it will do is license home inspectors, and I do support that. In fact, yesterday I met with the Ontario Real Estate Association, and we talked about home inspection. They support licensing home inspection, as well. Buying a house is the biggest purchase most of us make. Most of us are not experts in plumbing, electrical work, roofs, insulation etc. That’s why you count on—and it’s the common practice nowadays to hire a home inspector to come and do a detailed look at your home and do a report.

I will say in my recent purchases in buying and selling a home that I’ve done in the last 15 years, I’ve used a home inspector and it’s proved very worthwhile. In 2005, when we bought our home in Vankoughnet, we had a home inspector come in and inspect the home. He actually missed that the oil furnace was cracked. When we went to get it serviced, Muskoka Mechanical at the time said that we needed a new furnace. Well, the home inspector actually came through for a good part of the cost of that new furnace without me having to do anything to require them to do so—a real positive experience.

I think people do, though, need to have confidence in their home inspectors when they’re making this huge purchase.

I hope the bill doesn’t create unnecessary red tape. I read the

section regarding needing a written contract, and the contract must comply with requirements prescribed by regulation. I just worry that they’re going to make unnecessary steps and create unnecessary red tape in that part of the bill, but our party does support licensing home inspectors, Mr. Speaker.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Algoma–Manitoulin.

Mr. Michael Mantha: I always enjoy being in the House with the member from Essex when he speaks. He speaks from the heart, and he relates everything back to his riding, which is something that I pride myself on. Again, it’s always a pleasure to stand here on behalf of the good people of Algoma–Manitoulin.

He raised three really important points. One is the role of the inspectors and what that is going to look like. He did bring up the Mike Holmes show; I’m a big fan of that show. You always watch it and you’re always looking for when that problem is going to be found. When you look at that, there has to be a consistency with those inspectors so that if an inspector is doing it in house A and house B, there is a process that is going to be followed and that is going to be consistent so that we have appropriate reports that are going to be given in those inspections in order to be fair to both the buyer and the seller of that home.

He brought up the discussions on the door-to-door sales and the tactics that are being used at that door. I brought that up in a brief conversation that we had earlier on the previous bill. I commended the member from Kenora–Rainy River, who deserves a lot of the credit for the work that she has done on that. But I want to let the member know that I still have my little Kirby. I call it “my little piggy,” by the way.

The predatory payday industry—and he used that word very well: predatory. When you look at what is happening and when you look at why that industry is flourishing, that’s where we should be challenging ourselves to have that greater discussion. Why do we need that industry out there? It’s because people are not getting that living wage; because people are hurting at home; because people are having a hard time making ends meet; because people are having to choose between paying their hydro or putting food in their cupboard or getting their full prescription or getting to that next appointment.

I want to thank the member from Bramalea–Gore–Malton as well, who has championed this issue—and, again, two of our members for their work. Their tenacity is finally coming to fruition in this bill. I want to commend the member from Essex; I always enjoy hearing him.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from St. Catharines.

Mr. James J. Bradley: I’m delighted to offer a few comments on this. I was really pleased when this legislation was brought forward because I have been badgering my colleagues who have had this position from time to time—

Interjection: Relentlessly.

Mr. James J. Bradley: Relentlessly—to bring in legislation of this kind because I’m noting through the constituency office, which we all know is a good gauge of what people are feeling, the number of people who are being duped by door-to-door sales. It doesn’t mean everybody, but there are so many instances where they are using false information to get in the door. They come in with some kind of suit on and it looks like they’re from the government. They will say, “We have to inspect your furnace,” or “Let’s see your bill,” and they keep bullying the people.

Some people are vulnerable, particularly people who are accommodating of others, who want to be friendly, and they end up signing contracts which are very costly to them.

I know there are some people expressing caution, but I’m going to tell you I have become infuriated. My own temper rises when I read in the constituency notes stories of people who have come to the office or contacted the office, or who I’ll see in the street and who will tell me. It’s often a younger person talking about a senior citizen who is very trusting.

Next, these loan things. I’ve been in your city of Hamilton. You look down the street and you can’t believe how many of these loan sharks—sorry, loan officers—there are, with great advertising for people. The most vulnerable people, the people who shouldn’t be getting their money there, are getting it there. Mind you, the banks and the credit unions, who make some efforts, should make even greater effort to help those people.

Lastly, the home inspectors: That’s exceedingly important, so that people don’t get a surprise.

I’m pleased with this legislation. I might even go farther than this legislation, but certainly I am supporting it at this time.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member for Essex has two minutes.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: Thanks to the member from Brampton West. He spoke about the large South Asian community that he has, and the vulnerabilities built into that community because of language barriers and cultural nuances. I thank him for the work he has done.

The member from Parry Sound–Muskoka, and the member from Algoma–Manitoulin, who has one of those Kirbys—they’re indestructible. So I guess that was a good deal when you bought that thing, your “little piggy” who cleans up after you. That’s great. Bring it over to my house anytime. That would be wonderful.

And the member for St. Catharines, who rightly identified some of the positive things in this bill: Speaker, I had to chuckle a little bit at the comments from the member of St. Catharines, because when it came to door-to-door sales tactics he said, “We have to prohibit the use of false information to get in the door.” I think if that’s the case, then it will eliminate the entire Liberal election plan for the next election campaign, because when they knock on the door and they try to get in the door, my goodness.

All kidding aside, Speaker, it’s kind of rich to hear that language coming from a politician. They want to prohibit getting false information to the door, so I hope that’s the case. I hope he’s really sincere about doing that, because we would be well served as constituents and the electorate would be well served.

But I digress, Speaker. I’m supportive of the bill. Our caucus is supportive of the bill. We’re going to add as much as we can at the committee stage to make it stronger to protect even more people and to raise those issues that I think we’re all passionate about, to ensure that there’s fairness and justice in our economy at every level. Again, I thank you for the time and I thank the members for their attention.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate?

Hon. David Orazietti: I’m certainly pleased to rise today to speak to Bill 59, Putting Consumers First Act. I would say to the member opposite, as passionate as he was about his comments, that it’s important that all individuals who are elected or seeking election represent themselves well and accurately at the door. I know he’s committed to doing that, Speaker, and wouldn’t do anything other than give all of the facts to a constituent at the door.

But, Speaker, I want to focus on the legislation at hand, because that’s why we’re here today, to talk about this important issue. I would like to spend a few minutes on each of the areas of the legislation: banning door-to-door sales in certain areas of home products, home inspections and, obviously, payday lending.

Certainly, over the last several years it was a privilege to be in this ministry, in the Ministry of Government and Consumer Services. I know first-hand the challenges that individuals face on these issues, and I certainly advocated for and supported the items that are before us today in this legislation, which I think are all very important and needed.

When we talk about door-to-door sales, we know—and as representatives in our riding, we’ve all heard constituents talk to us, whether they’ve talked to us face-to-face or called us at our constituency office, about contracts they were in where they felt that perhaps somebody did not completely represent all of the elements of the contract and all of the costs that they would have to bear when they got into this contract. And they could not believe how much they had to pay and how difficult it was to cancel this type of contract.

I would say to that sector and those individuals who are out there, for example, claiming to be there on behalf of the government or the municipality—because that has happened. We have certainly had those incidents take place. That’s really unfair to consumers and residents and, in particular, to our senior citizens who are trusting individuals, by and large, willing to give someone the time at their doorstep and often enter into a contract mistakenly because they’re not given all of the information.

Now, I think we all know that there are many good organizations that go door to door. There are many charitable groups, for example, heart and stroke, the cancer society, the kidney foundation, the Girl Guides—all of these organizations. So we want to continue to ensure that all of these organizations have the opportunity to go door to door and to talk to folks in their community. What we want to stop is the type of action where individuals in some organizations misrepresent who they are, why they’re there and what it will cost to enter into an agreement.

I’m very supportive of this. I want to commend the current minister for her action in this regard, and I also want to commend MPP Yvan Baker for his work and his advocacy on this issue. This is a really important issue. We’ve all faced these challenges in our constituency offices and I think, quite frankly, there is broad public support for the action we’re taking in regard to this area of the door-to-door sales.

The other thing I like about the legislation that I’m very pleased to see, as these organizations continue to move from one product to another and reinvent themselves to find something else that they can sell to a consumer and perhaps not be completely upfront about that, is that we have the ability to continue to add specific areas to the legislation, through regulation, to grapple with those challenges. I think, in that sense, it’s a very progressive piece of legislation.

With regard to home inspectors, this is fundamentally important to the work that we’re doing in terms of consumer protection. Having had the opportunity over the last number of years to talk with, for example, Mike Holmes—he was up in Sault Ste. Marie at Sault College when they launched a home inspection program—you look at this sector, and anybody with a flashlight and a business card can call themselves a home inspector. That is the reality of this. It is the Wild West.

When you talk about a purchase that someone is going to make, the largest investment in their life, that they’re likely putting their entire savings into and will continue to pay for for many years to come, they want to make sure that they’re making a good, sound, well-informed decision that’s in the interest of them and their family.

When you look at all the regulatory components that go into that transaction, whether it’s the regulations that a real estate agent is under, the regulations that lawyers comply with or the regulations that the banking industry complies with, you have an individual who is validating the structural integrity and the merits of the asset that’s being purchased completely unregulated. Really, it is a weak link in the process where someone would go through a transaction to purchase a home. That is really a loophole, if you will, that we need to close to ensure that individuals know and understand the value of a home inspection.

If you go back, say, 30 years in Ontario, most real estate agents would tell you that the likelihood of someone asking for, requesting or paying for a home inspection was less likely than it is today. It’s something that’s far more common, and because it’s more common, it’s been helpful, but there are still instances where individuals are purchasing homes and that structural integrity is not protected in that transaction. That’s why it’s so important to do this.

I know there are folks in this sector who I’ve spoken to who have been very, very strong advocates with regard to this. There have been a number of reviews on this, an expert panel that the ministry convened, making 35 recommendations in their report, a code of ethics, minimum qualifications, these types of measures, which are all very important in helping to regulate the home inspector sector. So I wholeheartedly endorse this part of the act. I think it’s very positive and will help to continue to raise the bar with respect to home inspections and the purchase of real estate in Ontario.

Just one more point I want to make on this issue is the issue around insurance and whether or not that should be mandatory. One of the challenges, certainly, that I recall in this sector is that there are those individuals for whom this is their full-time position. The rates that they charge, the income that they make is something that is sustainable for them, and they are able to take out insurance that would help to further protect the home inspector.

There are other parts of the province where that is not necessarily the reality, where individuals are providing the service on a part-time basis. They have the skills, they have the ability, but for them to be able to pay the full cost of insurance—it’s a different environment when they’re doing this on an irregular basis or on a very part-time basis and may have other employment that’s their primary.

We don’t want to prevent individuals from participating in this field of work. We also don’t want to prevent an individual from gaining access to a home inspector. That’s why we’re moving forward with the legislation the way it’s worded. I think it’s important, as long as individuals recognize that they’re getting a home inspector, that either they have to disclose that they have insurance or that they do not have insurance, so they know exactly the standard for which they’re paying for that home inspection.

Last point: I just want to speak briefly about the payday lending environment and the predatory environment of payday lending in the province of Ontario. Granted, they provide a service, and for some people, this is absolutely essential, that they be able to access these types of funds; traditional means may be more difficult. But what we need to do is ensure that through legislation, in every way, shape and form that we can, we protect consumers.

You know, Speaker, I appreciate your comments. I know that the member from Hamilton East–Stoney Creek—in fact, Speaker, yourself—had said, “I commend the government ... for pushing this through, because this is long overdue, and I think it’s going to save a lot of anguish for a lot of people in our province.”

Speaker, you’re quite right. There are comments from all sides of the House here saying that we need to move forward with these particular initiatives, so I thank you for your support on this. I think that—

Interjection.

Hon. David Orazietti: No, it’s a well-thought-out comment, and I commend the Speaker for that.

This is why we need to move forward. I’m optimistic that we’ll have support from all sides of the House—not to pre-judge what the outcome may be. I fully support the legislation and I think we need to pass it as soon as we can.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): It being close to 10:15, this House stands recessed until 10:30 this morning.

The House recessed from 1014 to 1030.

Introduction of Visitors

Mr. Todd Smith: I’d like to welcome the members from the Ontario Good Roads Association. In particular, the chief administrative officer for the city of Belleville, Rick Kester, joins us today.

Mr. Paul Miller: I have some friends in the members’ west gallery: Karl and Shirley Bryan, Frank and Mary Tousaw, and my wife, Carole Paikin-Miller.

Hon. Steven Del Duca: I’m delighted to make sure that everybody knows today is CAA’s lobby day here at Queen’s Park. I’d like to welcome those joining us here for question period: Sue Waywell, the board chair; Teresa Di Felice, the director of government and community relations; Elliott Silverstein, manager of government relations; Ghazal Momen, who is a former Queen’s Park staffer and is part of the CAA team; and the rest of the CAA government and community relations team here today at Queen’s Park.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Very quickly: It looks like we have a very large number of introductions today so let’s keep to the point, get that done quickly and I’ll cover everyone.

Mr. Michael Harris: I would like to welcome guests of page captain William Dixon, who’s just walking down there right now: parents Christine and John; brothers, Luke and Graham; sisters Danielle and Claire; and, of course, grandmother Sylvia. Welcome to Queen’s Park, guys.

Miss Monique Taylor: I would also like to welcome one of our page captain’s, Helen Kottaras, family here. We have her parents, Angie and George Kottaras; brother, Steven Kottaras, who is a former page—welcome back to Queen’s Park. And we have both sets of grandparents today: Helen and Sam Sutter and Catherine and Steve Kottaras. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Ted McMeekin: Today I’d like to welcome guests from the Ontario Lung Association here for their Queen’s Park day. Joining us in the gallery today are Gemma Styling, Bob Wood, Lana Biro, George Habib, Peter Glazier, Kathy Downes, Chris Yaccato, Sherry Zarins, Tristan McIntosh, Andrea Stevens Lavigne, Shelley Prevost and Monica Kocsmaros. Joining us later will be Jeff Lee, Sandy Lee and Walter Gretzky. A reminder to all members of their reception tonight in room 230 at 5 o’clock. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mrs. Gila Martow: CAA South Central Ontario has their offices in my riding, and I want to welcome my constituent Elliott Silverstein and the rest of the team: Matthew Turack, division president, CAA insurance; Cindy Hillaby, vice-president, CAA South Central Ontario; Josef Raffai, managing director of marketing, CAA North and East Ontario; Amy Orfanakos, senior communication specialist, CAA North and East Ontario; and sitting in the members’ gallery, Tracy Nickleford, Raymond Chan and Ethel Taylor. Everybody, welcome.

Mr. Percy Hatfield: From the Ontario Good Roads Association, I would like to welcome Tom Bateman, Chris Traini and Rayna Gillis.

From the Canadian Automobile Association today I would like to welcome back to Queen’s Park Christine Allum, Josef Raffai and Danica Logan.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Some of the family of William Dixon have been introduced, but I wanted to do a special shout-out to Sylvia Dixon and Bill Dixon, who are the grandparents from Don Valley West and from the church that I belong to.

Mr. Randy Pettapiece: I’d like to welcome Leroy Workman and Linda Straus from my riding of Perth–Wellington.

Ms. Catherine Fife: Please join me in welcoming two members of the Waterloo Professional Fire Fighters Association joining us today in the members’ gallery. They are in Toronto today for the OPFA conference: president Dean Good, and vice-president Brett Gibson. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Hon. Reza Moridi: Please join me in welcoming Greg Horton and Jeff Voisin from the Richmond Hill Professional Fire Fighters Association, as well as Paria Shahverdi, a painter and artist from my riding of Richmond Hill.

Mr. Monte McNaughton: I would like to welcome to Queen’s Park today a grade 5 class from Summit Heights elementary school, including my good friend Warren Richmond, the son of Mike and Kaydee Richmond.

Ms. Jennifer K. French: I would also like to welcome the Ontario professional firefighters here to the Legislature: president Rob Hyndman, and vice-president Mark Train.

Also, from the Oshawa professional firefighters: president Steve Barkwell, vice-president Rod Thwaites, Brett Cooper, Cory Hesson and firefighters from across Ontario. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Hon. Michael Chan: We are pleased to welcome the Ontario Arts Council, distinguished artists and other members of Ontario’s arts sector who are here today for Arts Day at Queen’s Park. Welcome.

Mr. Lorne Coe: I would like to introduce to the Legislature Kerry and Barry Mount and Dave MacAskill from the Whitby Sunrise Rotary Club. Welcome.

Mr. John Vanthof: I’d like to introduce Don and Irene Smith. Irene is the vice-president of the 293 Branch, Larder Lake Legion, and Don is the sergeant-at-arms. Welcome.

Ms. Ann Hoggarth: From my riding of Barrie, I wish to welcome ShoShona Kish, who is here with the Ontario Arts Council, and my friend Bryan Lewis, who is here from OGRA.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Please join me in welcoming guests from St. Michael Catholic Secondary School, who will be joining us later on.

Ms. Peggy Sattler: I’d like to welcome London West constituent Amy Bryson, who is here with the CAA.

I would also like to introduce friends from London: Jamelie Hassan, a Governor General Award-winning artist; Ron Benner, another artist; Marie-France Arismendi; and Manuel Arismendi.

Ms. Sophie Kiwala: I’d like to welcome Sue Waywell from my riding of Kingston and the Islands, who’s here with CAA, as well as Amy Orfanakos and Teresa Di Felice, also from CAA; as well as George Habib and Chris Yaccato from the Lung Association. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Ted Arnott: I, too, wish to welcome my friend Councillor Bryan Lewis of the town of Halton Hills, who is here for the Good Roads lobby day. Welcome to the Ontario Legislature.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: I’m going to do two introductions at the same time so that I can save time. First of all, Richard Bishop and Peter Osterberg are here from the OPFFA. Welcome to them.

Also, from OGRA—the people who take care of all our roads—all the way from Timmins, my neighbour at the cottage, Kamiskotia Lake, lot 20-whatever we are, Luc Duval.

Mr. James J. Bradley: I’d like to welcome to the Legislature today Ryan Madill, president, and Mike Vail, vice-president, of the Ontario Professional Fire Fighters Association Local 485; and Dave Wood, chief of the fire service in the city of St. Catharines.

Ms. Laurie Scott: I’d like to welcome Abbas Latif. He’s volunteering in my office. Thank you very much, Abbas.

Mr. Wayne Gates: I’d just like to welcome Todd Brunning and Dave Jarrett, Niagara Falls firefighters. And I’d like to welcome all the firefighters who are here on their lobby day. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mrs. Cristina Martins: It gives me great pleasure to rise here today to welcome my constituent from the riding of Davenport, who’s sitting just behind us here: Laura Berthiaume. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Jeff Yurek: I’d like to introduce two of the best firefighters in Ontario, from St. Thomas: Warren Scott and Daryl Smith. Welcome, guys.

Hon. David Zimmer: I’d like to welcome, in the gallery, Jee-Yun Lee, who is the news anchor from CP24; her son Zander Kim; and her mother, Soon Year Lee.

Mr. Jim Wilson: I’d like to welcome the mayor of the Town of the Blue Mountains, Mr. John McKean, who is here with the Ontario Good Roads Association.

M me France Gélinas: I’d like to introduce a few firefighters from Sudbury: Mark Muldoon, Kris Volpel and president Rob Hyndman. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: We have, from the Pickering Professional Firefighters Association, in the upper gallery, president Colin Arnott and secretary Neil Delory.

Also joining us will be Damien Walsh from the Toronto firefighters’ association.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: I’d like to acknowledge the professional firefighters’ association from North Bay. We have Gord Mulcahey and Mike Gillies.

As well, we have a good friend of mine from my hometown of Corbeil, Rick Champagne, who is OGRA’s past president.

Mrs. Lisa Gretzky: I, too, would like to welcome firefighters from Windsor. I’d like to welcome Kris Katton and Wayne Currie. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Hon. Kathryn McGarry: I have two members from the Cambridge Professional Fire Fighters’ Association: John Holman and Chris Davidson, in the members’ east gallery.

Mr. Peter Z. Milczyn: I’d like to welcome, with the CAA today, my constituent Ethel Taylor.

Hon. Dipika Damerla: It’s my pleasure to welcome, in the members’ gallery, our friends from the Ontario Retirement Communities Association, who are at Queen’s Park for their first-ever lobby day and reception. I ask everybody to please attend the reception. I would also like to welcome ORCA board chair Sharon Henderson, CEO Laurie Johnston and vice-president Paul Fogolin, all of whom are here today.

Ms. Sophie Kiwala: I would like to welcome Ann Bryan from Kingston and the Islands. She’s with our firefighters.

Mr. Grant Crack: On behalf of my colleague the MPP for Durham, Mr. Anderson, I’d like to welcome guests of page Emma-Rose Hoog. Her mother, Sarah, is here, and her sister Lavinia. They’re in the public gallery this morning. Welcome.

Mr. Arthur Potts: I would like to introduce my constituent Chris Yaccato, who is in the House today.

Ms. Daiene Vernile: Here today for the Ontario Arts Council day from my riding of Kitchener Centre, we have Andrew Bennett from the KW symphony and Shirley Madill with the KW art gallery. Welcome.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you for your co-operation. If you have not been introduced, please raise your hand. Welcome.

Report, Financial Accountability Officer

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I beg to inform the House that I have today laid upon the table a report from the Financial Accountability Officer.

Elizabeth Joan Smith

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): A point of order, the government House leader.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Speaker, I believe you will find that we have unanimous consent to recognize the former member of provincial Parliament from London South, Ms. Elizabeth Joan Smith, with a representative from each caucus speaking for up to five minutes.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The government House leader is seeking unanimous consent to pay tribute. Do we agree? Agreed.

The member from Lambton–Kent–Middlesex.

Mr. Monte McNaughton: I am truly honoured to have the opportunity to pay tribute to former member Elizabeth Joan Smith, an extraordinarily smart and generous woman who was dedicated to public service. Since I knew I was doing the tribute today, I made sure that I wore my red tie for the Smith family this morning.

First off, I want to welcome the family—

Applause.

Mr. Monte McNaughton: I want to first start by welcoming the family of Elizabeth Joan Smith to Queen’s Park today. It has been a real pleasure reaching out to family and friends of former MPP Smith and to hear so many wonderful stories about her life and legacy.

Joan, as she was always known, was a dedicated volunteer, politician, wife, mother of seven and grandmother of 22 very proud grandchildren. Having had this occasion to look into all that she accomplished and contributed, I was simply amazed. This was a woman who kept up an incredible pace throughout her life and truly gave her all to both her family and her community.

Growing up in southwestern Ontario, I personally recall Joan’s time in office. She was well known, well liked and a famous hometown politician. Always on the move, her red running shoes were a local legend. I believe her first campaign slogan was “Run, Joan, Run!”

Don Smith is well known across the province and beyond as one of the founders of EllisDon construction, which is a great Ontario success story. With EllisDon, the Smith family built one of Canada’s greatest companies, which continues to create jobs in London and throughout the country while building some of our most iconic infrastructure.

As Joan and Don grew the business and raised their children, she was also busy serving the community. She was a great community leader from a young age. She was head of the household campaign of the London United Way and the founding president of Madame Vanier Children’s Services. During that time, she was also an active member with many other excellent organizations, including the London diocese Catholic charities board, Family and Children’s Services of London and Middlesex County, and the London housing authority, just to name a few. These weren’t once-a-week type of commitments. This was Joan’s vocation.

As her children grew up, she had no intention of slowing down. She turned her passion for service into a pursuit of elected office. In 1976 she ran and won the seat of alderman with London city council for ward 2. She worked in that capacity until 1982, when she became controller on council.

In 1985, she made the decision to move to provincial politics. I understand that in her first campaign, her election signs had the big name “Joan Smith” and you could hardly see the Liberal Party name on the sign. London, of course, in those early 1980s was a bastion of conservatism, but Joan was so popular in her own right that she managed to unseat an incumbent minister who set a provincial record for campaign spending. During her time at Queen’s Park from 1985 until 1990, she served as government whip and deputy House leader. She was a member of the Board of Internal Economy and was appointed the Solicitor General. She was the first woman to ever hold that title in Ontario.

When she left public office, she continued to work hard for causes she believed in and was a mentor to many who are now carrying on her legacy of service, including former PC cabinet minister Dianne Cunningham, who had the opportunity to talk to you about the legacy of Joan Smith.

Joan Smith and her family have been pillars of the community in London from the 1950s to this very day, giving generously of their time and resources to support more worthy causes than I have time to mention here this morning. The benefits of Joan’s drive, intelligence and tenacity are still felt by many institutions and organizations in London and area today.

Political life and public service are very demanding, and I want to thank Joan’s family for sharing her and allowing us all to benefit from her energy and talents. She set out with strong values and a determination to do good in the world, and she accomplished incredible things. Her example has inspired and will continue to inspire many of us. It reminds me of why I’m here, and I know her legacy as a trailblazer and tireless advocate will one day inspire my daughter and all women across the province of Ontario.

Thank you again to the Smith family. Thank you for sharing Joan with all of us in the province of Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further tributes?

Ms. Peggy Sattler: It is an honour for me to rise today on behalf of the Ontario NDP caucus to pay tribute to former London South MPP Elizabeth Joan Smith.

In August 2013, about three weeks after I was elected, the London Free Press ran a story entitled “Unlikely City Puts Women in Power.” The story noted that, “One of Canada’s 10 largest cities, for the first time in its history, now counts more women than men as senior lawmakers.” It went on to say: “In senior politics, especially at the provincial level, London takes a back seat to few in gender equality,” sending “strong women to Queen’s Park in senior roles for at least two generations....”

Speaker, before Deb Matthews, before Dianne Cunningham, before Marion Boyd, before Irene Mathyssen, long before Teresa Armstrong and I, there was Joan Smith, the trail-blazing matriarch who paved the way for London women in provincial politics. For that, we are profoundly grateful.

I met Joan just once about a year or so ago at a youth award ceremony at the Boys and Girls Club, one of the many community organizations that has benefited enormously from the generosity and passion of Joan and her husband, Don. With a twinkle in her eye, she said, “So you’re the Peggy Sattler I’ve been hearing about.” We chatted a bit, and in that brief exchange, I experienced all the qualities that people remember about Joan. She was kind and curious, big-hearted and sharp-witted, down to earth and full of life.

Joan Smith was a woman ahead of her time and was always on the go. By the age of 21, she had graduated from the University of Toronto, married her lifelong partner, Don Smith, a force to be reckoned with in his own right, and delivered the first of her seven children. While caring for her growing family, her tireless work as a community activist first took form when she was appointed to the local synod and drove the process of reform within the Catholic Church. She went on to play key leadership roles with the Catholic Children’s Aid Society, the London housing authority and the United Way.

In 1965, she helped found Madame Vanier Children’s Services, a children’s mental health agency that last year celebrated its 50-year anniversary and which remains one of Joan’s many crowning achievements.

Jim Smith, a friend of her son’s, describes Joan as a mother to everyone in a house full of kids: practical, no nonsense and unperturbed by neighbourhood children running in and out of the door. He also recalls lively and animated policy discussions between Joan and Don, who although the best of friends, both had strong opinions, and were not afraid to disagree.

In 1976 Joan won her first seat on the London city council, where she served until making the jump to provincial politics in 1985 as a Liberal Party candidate. Throughout the election, Joan could be seen everywhere in the riding of London South wearing her signature red running shoes, knocking on doors and energetically running from event to event.

She defeated the Conservative incumbent in a Tory stronghold and was soon afterwards named party whip for the Liberals, later serving as the first woman Solicitor General in Ontario’s history.

Joan was always a champion of social justice, someone who fought for the underdog and was outspoken in defence of what was right. Her political opponent, David Winninger, who ran for the NDP against Joan in the 1985, 1987 and 1990 provincial elections, remembers her as a “kindred spirit” because of her commitment to social causes. Joan must have felt the same way about Winninger. After his second loss to Joan in 1987, she asked him to chair the London and Middlesex Housing Corp., a position that was then a provincial appointment, because she saw him as an ally in his advocacy for social housing.

She was defeated by Winninger in 1990, but immediately embraced a new role on the board of King’s University College. Today, her presence can be felt everywhere on the King’s campus; for example, in the Joan Smith Student Leadership Suite in the Student Life Centre or in the student scholarship she established. But her biggest legacy, according to King’s University College principal David Sylvester, was in the culture she created as a passionate advocate for student voice and student leadership in governance.

Current King’s programs on women in politics and women’s leadership are a direct result of the ethos she established about the importance of engaging young women in civic and political life. Her legacy will live on in the future generations of London women who will be coming to Queen’s Park to represent London ridings.

Most of all, of course, Joan’s legacy lives in her family: her seven children, who are here with us today, her 22 grandchildren and her seven great-grandchildren. Politics is not easy on families, and we thank you for sharing Joan with us. In the end, I do not doubt that Joan’s deepest wish was achieved, which was to be a good role model for her family. She made a positive difference in the world, and for that we are profoundly grateful.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further tribute?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I am deeply honoured to have the opportunity to speak today, and I confess more than a little bit emotional. I’m delighted so many members of that large and exuberant and boisterous Smith family are here. I knew they had arrived, Speaker, because I could hear them from this chamber.

I just want to welcome them by name: Donnie, Jacqui and Domonique are here; Mike and Diane; Geoff’s son Rory; Lynne Cram and Tom; Rob, Andrew, Nicky and Darren Elligsen; little Amie Joan, representing the great-grandchildren, is here; Bob and Terry Smith; Gord Smith and Erin Wendl; Cathy Martin, Sara and Xavier Debane; and David and Jennifer Smith and Shannon are here. Eleven other grandchildren, her son Geoff, six other great-grandchildren, with two more on the way, are all here in spirit, Speaker. In fact, I think the Smith family is putting that Speaker’s gallery to the test. How many people can it hold? I think we’re testing it today.

I want to say welcome to each and every member of the Smith family. I know that today is a bittersweet day—a day to be so proud and to celebrate Joan’s accomplishments, but also a day to feel the loss. I know this was a place that Joan loved, and this place holds many happy memories for her.

I know at a time like this we can talk about the accomplishments of the person we are honouring, and that is a long list, including bringing in Sunday shopping, bringing in and implementing full funding for Catholic schools, of course Madame Vanier—many, many, many accomplishments. But in the short time allotted to me, I want to talk about her spirit. I want to talk about the character of Joan Smith because that is what made her exceptionally special.

I was very lucky to have known Joan and her family for a very long time. In fact, Speaker, the Matthews family and the Smith family were rivals in business, rivals in politics, but in fact we were great, great friends—in fact, so close that I had to take the unprecedented step, I believe, of getting a letter from the Integrity Commissioner saying that I was not, in fact, related to the Smith family, because that was the legend around here, Speaker.

People who are lucky enough to have known Joan Smith well are different people because they knew Joan Smith. She shaped us all and sometimes in a very profound way. We’ve heard Joan was brilliant. She was a brilliant, brilliant person. Not only was she smart; she drove everyone around her to stretch their critical thinking skills. As we’ve heard, she was always ready for a debate, most especially with her husband, Don.

In fact, at the funeral, we heard stories about friends of the Smith kids coming over to the house at 1400 Corley Drive and being afraid that Joan and Don were going to come to blows because of the debate they were having. The Smith family, of course, knew that was just normal. They’d read the paper and have a debate. Geoff once said Joan wouldn’t let you off the hook. If you couldn’t defend your opinion, you were in for a challenge from Joan, and the more she respected you, the more she would challenge you.

Joan had a mind of her own—a very independent woman. She stood her ground. I remember the 1992 Liberal leadership convention, Speaker. Some here were there. Don Smith was a strong and firm supporter of Murray Elston. Joan Smith, not surprisingly, was a firm and strong supporter of Lyn McLeod. I remember the voting went on for hours and hours and came down to two candidates, Murray Elston with Don Smith, Lyn McLeod with Joan Smith. The final result, Speaker, we know: Lyn McLeod won by nine votes. I want to say that Don was a good loser, but he wasn’t, and I am told that the drive back to London was a very quiet drive home.

You know, the thing that I loved most about Joan were her values. As her daughter Lynne said, Joan was a rebel from the beginning, always standing up for the underdog. She had an unfailing moral compass. Whether it was a personal issue or a political issue, Joan knew what was right and she knew what was wrong. She knew whose side she was on, what was fair and what wasn’t. Sometimes she had to think it through and apply that remarkable intellect to the moral dilemma at hand, but in the end Joan always landed in the right place, and that was where she would stand.

Joan was always someone I could go to to help me land in that right place, and while I will no longer be able to sit down and talk things over with her, I know that Joan will continue to help me get to that right place because she taught me how to do it.

We’ve heard how hard Joan Smith worked. She worked as hard as anyone I have ever known, and you’ve heard reference to those legendary red running shoes. In the months leading up to the campaign—her first campaign—I remember so clearly going out and knocking on doors. She would go out several days a week for several hours. She would get a team of people around her, and if you thought you were going for a leisurely stroll, forget it. Joan really made sure everyone with her worked as hard as she did. We worked hard, but we always had fun and had lots of laughs along with that.

I know the word “mentor” is overused, but Joan was certainly and in every way my mentor. She was one of my very first supporters when I decided to take that leap into politics. She was with me every step of the way. I was not the only person entering political life who benefited from Joan’s advice. She was a fierce supporter and encouraged many women to enter politics. Her advice was always direct. She did not mince words. She did not beat around the bush. She told you straight up what you needed to do to be successful.

Speaker, all of us know that there are several degrees of support when it comes to running for office. Some people offer kind words and moral support, and that’s great. Some people write a cheque, and that is also appreciated. Some offer up their time, and some people throw themselves into the campaign, and that is priceless. I can tell you, Speaker, Joan was priceless. From my nomination fight in 2003 to my most recent campaign, Joan was with me actively. She made lists. She cajoled her friends to do what was necessary to get me elected.

She was so good, in fact, that one of my opponents for the nomination complained that I had an unfair advantage: I had a team of stay-at-home little old ladies. Well, yes, I did. And Joan was captain of that team. And I won.

But, Speaker, we all won because we had Joan in our lives. We won because we learned from her how to be the very best we can be; to not be content to just talk about problems but to work to solve them; to be a champion for a fairer, better society; to take care of those who are facing the greatest challenges; to speak for those whose voices are not heard; and to be a friend in good times and in bad. Joan Smith was a great woman. The world is better because of her.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): They say that confession is good for the soul. As Speaker, I made a mistake: my feeble attempt at humour. When I asked if there was anyone else who didn’t get introduced to raise your hand, I forgot to introduce my guests who are here today for the tribute.

Would the members please join me in welcoming the family of the late Elizabeth Joan Smith, MPP for London South during the 33rd and 34th Parliaments, who are seated in the gallery: her son Don Smith and his wife, Jacqui; her son Mike Smith and his wife Diane; her son Geoff Smith; her daughter Lynne Cram and her partner, Tom; her son Bob Smith and his wife, Terry; her daughter Cathy Martin; her son David Smith and his wife Jennifer; and all of their grandchildren. Welcome, and thank you for being here for this wonderful tribute.

From the former parliamentarians, a special guest: David Warner, the Speaker in the 35th Parliament. David, thank you for attending as well.

I thank all members for their very kind and heartfelt comments. To the family, thank you for the gift of Joan. We will be making sure the family receives a copy of Hansard and a DVD for each of you to share these wonderful tributes to your loved one. Thank you for the gift of Joan.

Oral Questions

Fundraising

Mr. Steve Clark: My question is for the Premier. In 2014, the Ontario Liberal Party paid William Trudell, the law firm representing Pat Sorbara, just a little over $4,000. In 2015, the Liberals paid William Trudell over $147,000. I can only imagine what the 2016 bill will be, given the litany of new Liberal scandals.

Mr. Speaker, will the Premier guarantee that no taxpayers’ money will be used to pay the lawyers of Liberals charged in the Sudbury bribery scandal?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: As you know, this matter is before the courts. The individuals who have been charged in this matter have retained counsel. Of course, those counsels’ retainers will be paid by the people responsible. The government, of course, will not be paying for any of those legal dues. That’s not the norm, and that won’t be happening in this instance.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Steve Clark: Again, I’ll try to get the Premier on the record.

The Premier is supposed to be in Sudbury tonight. The Sudbury Red Tent Dinner was scheduled to take place tonight at the Radisson Hotel: $500 a ticket, or $5,000 a table. The Premier, the Ministers of Northern Development and Mines, Municipal Affairs and Community Safety—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’m quite prepared to pick up where I left off yesterday—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): And while I’m speaking, I wouldn’t want anyone interjecting.

To repeat myself now that I have quiet, I’m quite prepared to the pick up where I left off yesterday.

Mr. Steve Clark: The Premier and all those ministers are all scheduled to attend, alongside the member for Sudbury, this high-priced Liberal fundraiser. But what is the money going towards, Speaker? Is tonight’s Liberal fundraiser being used to fund the legal defences of those accused in the Sudbury by-election scandal?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I guess my first statement didn’t quite sink in. I will move to warnings on one side if I have to.

Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Speaking of fundraisers, I think the member opposite should speak to his seatmate next to him and ask him how his “final funders” are going on. They will be taking place tomorrow for $500, speaking of high-priced fundraising events.

Speaker, as we know, all parties continue to fundraise under the rules that exist today. I know that the party opposite, the Conservatives, have been doing big fundraisers. They did one in Vaughan, raising millions of dollars, selling tables for thousands and thousands of dollars.

At the same time, the opposition party continues to stall the work of the committee on Bill 2 and continues to drag on that work by filibustering the committee, because they like the status quo, Speaker. They want to make sure that they continue to operate in the existing legal framework as opposed to the changes that we want to bring to make sure that Ontario becomes a leader when it comes to how parties are financed, and making sure that we have more transparency and accountability and we put an end to corporate and union donations.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. As this has revealed itself, I’m going to now try to rein this in a little bit and ask all sides to make reference to government policy and concerns about the specifics of what government is doing. We’ll stay away from the other side of this—which is very hard to do; and I’m being honest about this. I let it go because I wanted to see if there was a relationship to government policy.

I’m going to ask the member to continue with his questions, but do recommend to him to see if he can tie that in tighter to government policy, please.

Mr. Steve Clark: Speaker, back to the Premier: A link to the invitation to the fundraiser remains on the Liberal website, and a link to the form to purchase a table remains active. But the event is conspicuously absent from the list of fundraising events on the website. Is this event cancelled or are the Liberals now hiding this event?

Mr. Speaker, the people of Sudbury have been lied to enough. What is happening with this Sudbury fundraiser tonight?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Speaker, it’s not a policy question, but the reason the member is not seeing that fundraiser on the website is because it has been rescheduled. Thank you very much for noticing. Clearly, he’s spending a lot of time just looking at fundraisers.

I’m sure he’s going to the “final funder” tomorrow that the member from North Bay is doing, because he’s asking people to “please dig deep and donate to your maximum.”

So here you go: The parties opposite continue to fundraise, asking people to dig deep, while they’re also stalling the work of the committee which is working on Bill 2, which will ensure that we put an end to corporate and union donations, which is going to put strict caps on fundraising and would also put rules in place that will prohibit MPPs from attending fundraising events. I can tell you, Speaker, the Conservatives and their leader do not want those changes. They love the status quo. That’s why they don’t want Bill 2 to pass, either.

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Steve Clark: My question is for the Premier. The Minister of Energy has been accused by a federal prosecutor of asking for an alleged bribe to run for the Liberal Party.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Beaches–East York and the member from St. Catharines, the chief government whip, will come to order.

I’m getting desperately close, because of certain individuals, to move into yesterday’s procedure, which is to go to warnings.

Finish your question, please.

Mr. Steve Clark: The ethical, moral and trust issues are compromised. The integrity of this minister has been called into question. He must step down.

Will the Premier accept the minister’s resignation today?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I categorically reject the premise of the question, and no, I will not.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Steve Clark: Yesterday the Minister of Energy said this: “If anyone’s ever had to explain to a nine-year-old why you’re not a bad man, it’s not an easy conversation.”

Nobody in the opposition has ever accused the Minister of Energy of being a bad man. In fact, we have encouraged the minister to show that he’s an honourable man and to do the right thing.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Chief government whip, second time.

Hon. Charles Sousa: You got kids, pal?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Minister of Finance.

Hon. David Zimmer: Bring family into it—shame on you.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation.

Please complete your question.

Mr. Steve Clark: A few crocodile tears to elicit sympathy doesn’t change that fact, and regardless—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order.

The Minister of Labour will withdraw.

Hon. Kevin Daniel Flynn: Withdraw, Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): We’re moving to warnings for everyone.

Wrap-up sentence, please.

Mr. Steve Clark: Regardless, the minister has been accused of seeking a bribe. The honourable thing for him to do is step aside.

Will the Premier walk over to the minister’s desk—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order, please. Be seated, please.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I have full confidence in the integrity of the Minister of Energy, absolutely full confidence.

I have to say that I cannot express the depth of my disappointment at a member of this House expressing or mocking—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. The member from Ancaster will withdraw.

Hon. Ted McMeekin: Withdraw, Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): If I hear it again, we’re going to get into naming. Either side knows better.

Finish your answer.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Thank you. A member of this Legislature mocking another member, a man who was defending his family—I cannot express the depth of my disappointment.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Final supplementary.

Mr. Steve Clark: Back to the Premier. A minister of the crown has been accused of seeking a bribe from the Premier’s deputy chief of staff. The opposition is not asking the trial to take place in the Legislature. We want it to play out in a court of law.

But the people of Ontario deserve answers, and only the Premier can provide those answers. She knows she can invoke her right and privilege to avoid testifying in the trial, but I believe she must tell the truth to Ontarians.

Will the Premier waive her right to avoid taking the stand and testify in the trial of Patricia Sorbara?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: There is a legal process that is taking place outside of this House, and that is where it should take place. We are doing the work of the people of Ontario in this House, and the Minister of Energy is doing that with integrity.

We all know, as members of this Legislature, how challenging it is to be in the public eye and for our families to be in the public eye. I think it behooves every single one of us to respect that and to respect the honour of members who are doing just that, who are protecting their families and are serving with integrity the people of Ontario.

By-election in Sudbury

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is for the Premier. A federal prosecutor said that the Minister of Energy asked for some special benefits so he would run for the Liberal Party. It’s a serious accusation, Speaker, coming from a serious source. It’s not the sort of thing to shrug off.

Has the Premier talked to her minister face to face since this allegation was made by a federal prosecutor?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I refer to my earlier answer. This is a process that is happening outside of this House. I have full confidence in the integrity of the Minister of Energy. We are here doing the work of the people of Ontario, and the Minister of Energy is doing that to the best of his ability and with complete integrity.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: People want to have hope about good government, that political leaders can help to create opportunity for them and their kids. Instead, they see a government whose ethical standards for being in cabinet are simply that they haven’t been charged with a crime. I think people deserve better, Speaker.

Will the Premier ask her minister to resign from cabinet until the air is cleared one way or the other?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Speaker, these lines of questioning are very disturbing. The tone and the innuendo is extremely disheartening.

All of us in this House work to the best of our capability. We work hard. We balance our personal lives so that we can serve our communities. The Minister of Energy is no different. He is an honourable man. He’s a family man. He’s a community man. He is somebody who works in his community day in and out, travelling between Toronto, here at Queen’s Park, and his community in Sudbury.

Speaker, to draw his name into something that has nothing to do with him, that has nothing to do with his responsibilities as the Minister of Energy, when there are no charges against him is absolutely unfair and inappropriate.

I urge the members again: Let’s get back to focusing on issues that are important to the people of Ontario. Let’s not do mudslinging. We are better than that.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. Be seated, please. Thank you.

Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Speaker, asking the minister to resign while these allegations are hanging over the Liberal cabinet isn’t about trying this case in the Legislature, as the Premier and her minister like to claim. It’s about demonstrating integrity, demonstrating respect for this institution and demonstrating respect for the people of Ontario.

When Greg Sorbara was named in an RCMP warrant, he stepped aside until the matter was resolved. It’s about showing responsibility for his office.

The Premier needs to explain why she thinks it’s okay that her Minister of Energy is sitting in cabinet while there are allegations that he asked for some benefit in order to resign as a member of Parliament and run for the Liberal Party of Ontario. Can she explain how that helps people trust her government?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Speaker, what is disappointing is the lack of respect and the lack of integrity that the opposition parties continue to show for the members in this House and for the procedure of this House.

Nobody is new in this House. Everybody knows what the rules are. You have spoken about those rules, Speaker. It is a clearly established rule in our Westminster model of democracy—not only in this House, but in all Commonwealth Houses—that when a matter is before the courts, we do not discuss them in the House. We let an independent court, led by an independent judge, deal with those matters.

The Minister of Energy is not charged with any offence whatsoever. He is not being investigated. The matter deals with two individuals who are in the process. Let’s respect the process. Let’s respect the integrity of the members of the House. There’s a reason that we refer to each other as honourable members. I ask the members opposite to demonstrate their honour in this case as well.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): New question. The leader of the third party.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: This member needs to know that neither were any of the other examples that we’ve been raising in this House, Speaker. None of those people were actually charged either. They did the right thing by stepping aside, however.

Energy policies

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My next question is for the Premier. On the weekend, the Premier stood in front of a room of Liberal Party faithful and said that she has made a mistake by letting hydro bills get out of control. Maybe she was referring to the privatization of Hydro One or the privatization of green energy. Maybe it was signing the cabinet decision which led to paying $1.1 billion to cancel the two gas plants. Maybe it was continuing the PC privatization of electricity generation in this province, which has been going on now for over 20 years.

So what was the mistake, and what is the Premier going to do to fix it?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Mr. Speaker, this weekend I talked about the reality that we’re building an inclusive economy, and I talked about the initiatives that we have put in place in order to do that. I also talked about the reality that there is a burden on people because the electricity system in this province was a mess. It had to be cleaned up. There had to be investments, and we have made those investments, and we have made those changes.

We also recognize that there’s a burden that has been placed on people across the province, and we have been working to correct that, but we also know that there’s more that has to be done. It is why we have taken the debt retirement charge off of bills. It is why we’ve created the Ontario Electricity Support Program. It is why, as of January 1, the provincial portion of the HST will come off people’s bills. Those changes are all in place.

What I said on the weekend was that we need to do more, and that’s exactly what—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Well, Speaker, if the Premier is going to stand here and defend the status quo, it makes her apology ring awful hollow, doesn’t it?

Jane, a mom in Kingston, had to choose between groceries or her hydro bill. She bought groceries, and Kingston Hydro cut off her power.

Peter and Mel also live in Kingston. Even after receiving help from the Low-Income Energy Assistance Program, they were cut off by Hydro One. Now their house is flooded, and they’re running a gas generator so that they can run the fridge for a couple of hours a day.

I ask the Premier: How is this an inclusive Ontario, when families can’t survive? People don’t need an apology. They need to be able to pay their bills. Will the Premier take the first step and stop any further sell-off of Hydro One?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Well, Mr. Speaker—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Mr. Speaker, the solution that the leader of the third party puts forward will not solve the problem.

In fact, what we have acknowledged, and I have said repeatedly and said again on the weekend, is that we need to do more. It is unacceptable to me that people would have to make those kinds of choices, which is exactly why we’ve been taking action. The premise of the question of the third leader, that somehow the status quo is acceptable—what we have done, Mr. Speaker, is change the system, clean up the system—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Just a reminder: We’re at warnings.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: —clean up the mess left by previous governments—not just the Conservatives, but the NDP as well. In doing so, there have been costs associated with that cleanup.

We recognize that there is still more we need to do to take costs off people’s bills. So the status quo is not acceptable. That was exactly what I was talking about on the weekend.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Speaker, more privatization in the electricity system will absolutely make things much, much worse, and it’s unbelievable that this Premier does not accept that fact.

In 2013, this Premier apologized for the cancellation of the gas plants, but instead of changing, instead of fixing the underlying problem—the fact that it was costing Ontarians more and more just to turn on the lights—the Premier made an apology and then went right back to business as usual. That is not the kind of leadership that people expected, nor is it what they deserve. People don’t need the Premier to admit a mistake and then ignore the problem. They need the problem to be fixed, and they need the behaviour to change.

Will this Premier start fixing her mistakes and stop the privatization of Hydro One and start getting bills under control?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Mr. Speaker, again, I will say to the leader of the third party, that is exactly what I said on the weekend. I said that there are some things that we have done to take costs off the electricity bills of people in the province, whether it’s removal of the debt retirement charge, putting in place the Ontario Energy Support Program, or the changes that will come into place as of January 1 in terms of the provincial portion of the HST. Those are all things that we have done, recognizing that there has been a cost associated with cleaning up the mess in the electricity system that was left to us. We recognize that.

Then I said, Mr. Speaker, that there’s more that we need to do. I’ve committed to that, we have committed to that, and we will be making more changes going forward.

Climate change

Mr. Victor Fedeli: My question is for the Minister of Finance. Today, the Financial Accountability Officer confirmed what we’ve said all along: The government’s flawed cap-and-trade plan is about raising revenues, not cutting emissions. The FAO says that cash raised from cap-and-trade would “reduce the deficit ... in that year and increase the deficit ... in future years.” He’s already told us they’re using one-time money from asset sales and contingency funds to artificially balance the budget in an election year, and now he has confirmed that the Liberal government is using cap-and-trade as yet another cash grab to pay for their years of waste, mismanagement and scandals.

Mr. Speaker, will the minister come clean and admit he’s using the cap-and-trade funds to artificially balance the budget in an election year?

Hon. Charles Sousa: I appreciate the work by the FAO yet again illustrating what it is that’s going forward, recognizing also, as outlined in our Climate Change Mitigation and Low-carbon Economy Act, that every dollar that is raised is allocated specifically to the use of reducing our emissions. We made that very clear. It is being very determined and disciplined in the way we proceed. Furthermore, it is also limited to the amount that is received. Revenues that come in are offset by the investments we make and the expenses we make for cap-and-trade projects. That will always be the case.

I’m going to recognize the tremendous work of our minister of climate change, who has taken leadership in initiating this, putting Ontario at the forefront of embracing a low-carbon economy, which, in fact, will increase our overall economic growth and enable all Ontarians to better benefit not only from lower emissions but also an improved economy.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Back to the minister: Speaker, I ask the minister to pick up this book. Go to any page. The FAO has outlined all of the scenarios that they’re going to use to artificially balance the budget in an election year. Pick a page. Page 1: “reduce the deficit” now “and increase the deficit ... in future years.” Page 5: “resulting in the cap-and-trade ... reducing deficits.” Page 16: “The result would be a reduction in the deficit.”

Speaker, I ask the minister: Pick a page and then tell us, will he come clean and report to this Legislature and admit that he’s using cap-and-trade funds to artificially balance the budget?

Hon. Charles Sousa: So, page 9: The “report does not: forecast cap-and-trade revenues, expenses or cash flows,” nor does it “analyze potential economic” benefits, Mr. Speaker. The FAO recognizes that it’s dependent upon our government to take the stands, to make the appropriate decisions, to balance the books, ensure that we increase our economic growth and protect our environment for future years. We’re doing our job over here, recognizing that it’s of net benefit to Ontarians going forward. We’ll continue to do so.

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Gilles Bisson: My question is to the Premier. On Monday, a federal prosecutor said that the Minister of Energy, the former MP for Sudbury, “sought certain benefits, offers or job or employment as part of his conditions for him to run as MPP” in that election.

Premier, the minister says he doesn’t think what he did was a bribe, so my question is this: What did he ask for and who did he ask? Did he ask you, did he ask Sorbara or did he ask Mr. Lougheed?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: First of all, I thank the member. I welcome back the member opposite. It’s good to have him back. It’s good to deal with him on a regular basis as the NDP House leader.

I think the member knows quite well—he has been in the House for a long time—that when a matter is before the courts, it’s highly inappropriate to discuss those matters in this House. That is to be dealt with within the courts. We very much respect the sub judice rule, and I would strongly encourage the member opposite that he should do the same. Let’s let an independent court, our judiciary, make that determination in terms of the issues, the evidence and the allegations in this matter. We will respect that process, Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Premier, people know across this province that they’re paying too much for their hydro bills, so much so that last weekend, you finally admitted that what you’ve done with the hydro system was wrong and that it’s costing people more money.

Here you have a minister that’s under fire for this scandal. How can he do the job of making sure that he wrestles down the price of hydro for consumers and businesses in this province if he’s constantly under the cloud of this particular scandal?

I ask you, will you do the right thing and will you ask him to step down, not only because it’s the right thing to do, but because we need a minister who’s actually going to try to do something about hydro prices?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: The Minister of Energy is very focused on his job as the minister responsible.

He is working hard, along with the Minister of Infrastructure in his role, on cleaning up the mess that the NDP and the PCs left our energy sector in, and making sure that we have a green, reliable and secure energy system, to make sure we no longer have brownouts or blackouts, to make sure that we have no more smog days in the province of Ontario so that our kids can breathe easily and inhale fresh air, and so that the asthma rates are down in our province—not to mention, Speaker, that this Minister of Energy is working hard to bring the cost of electricity down.

That is why he has permanently eliminated the 8% HST off our electricity bills. That will come into place on January 1. That is why we have got a program like the Ontario Electricity Support Program, to ensure that people who are vulnerable, who are low-income, have an extra break on their electricity bills.

Poverty reduction

Mr. Ted McMeekin: My question is to the Minister of Community and Social Services.

Yesterday, I was pleased to join the minister in Hamilton as our province kicked off public consultations for a Basic Income Pilot. Throughout the evening, we heard valuable and insightful feedback from people who joined us from across the Hamilton region.

Though many—about 120 people—were able to join us for the consultation, many others were unable to attend. Some have asked me how they can follow the discussion at home or provide feedback on basic income.

Mr. Speaker, through you to the minister: Can the minister please outline how Ontarians who were unable to attend the session in Hamilton—and perhaps elsewhere, going forward—can participate in the discussion and provide their input on basic income moving forward?

Hon. Helena Jaczek: Thank you to the member for the question and for continuing to be a tireless advocate for the most vulnerable in Ontario.

As part of our government’s commitment to transparency and accountability, we’re making all information received at the consultations available on our website. You will be able to see a wrap-up of all the feedback from each consultation session online the day following the consultation.

For those keen to participate in their own communities, we’re hosting several additional consultations across the province. A full list of available sessions can also be found online.

For those who have constituents wishing to provide their input from home, they can share their feedback via email or go online to complete the survey.

I encourage all members to share this information with their constituents, as it’s important that we hear as many views as possible, to ensure that we get this right.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Ted McMeekin: Mr. Speaker, my supplemental has to do with poverty reduction.

Minister, I’m proud that our province is taking the lead in testing a basic income in Ontario as part of our government’s income security efforts. Basic income is a different approach to financial assistance that would guarantee a minimum income level to eligible individuals in the province.

I know there is a great deal of interest around the world in the idea of a basic or guaranteed annual income, but there seems to be no agreed-upon approach that our government can look to as an example. This is why it is so important that we are holding public consultations.

Mr. Speaker, through you, will the minis