VOL. 2 PRE~IMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PE.RiiOD: 10:00 A.M. - 1:00 P.M. FRIDAY, MAY 2Q, 1983 NO. 45

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2387 NM - 1 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, since this is the anniversary of the Premier's infamous Day of Mourning, and his economic strategies look just as bad today as they did a year ago when he threw a tantrum, Mr. Speaker, that cost the Province about $80 million, I wonder if the hon. gentleman could tell us now what strategies the administration have~. what plans they have to deal with the horrible state of the Newfoundland economy? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, we have brought down a Throne Speech and we brought down a budget and we have outlined what we are going to try to do this year. We have worked hard on various sectors of the economy to try to help. Let us start with the fishing industry, Mr. Spea~er. Last year we guaranteed close to $30 million to fish processors around the Province,and most of them had a very good year and we did not have to have our guarantees called 1 but they would not have been able to own a business without the guai!antees.

We are continuing a number of support programmes to those processors this year who continue to need some support. The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) has been successful in having a number of fish processing plants on the Great Northern Peninsula get open in the:~ast few weeks. we are now engaged in extensive negotiations with the federal government on the offshore fishery and they are continuing and we are hopeful that within the next couple of weeks we can finalize an arrangement which is satisfactory to the Province and satisfactory to the federal government and satisfactory to the banks.

And that is ongoing 5r,Jr vU

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2387 NM - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: and very, very current. So in the inshore sector,as I sa id, primarily we have put close to $30 million in place last year. Some of them are continuing on this year \Yi.th that support. And we are negotiating in the offshore fishery right now, to try to bring that to successful conclusion. Number two, in the mining industry, Mr. Speaker, over the last year and a half, two years, and up into this year, we were successful in persuading the federal government to get involved w~th 51"11\6 l.J u .

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2388 JV - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: us in the Baie Verte mining operation which, as everybody knows, has become a real success story. We are now engaged in negotiations with the owners of Rambler Mines Ltd. who ar~ talking to other developers to try to reactivate the Rambler operation. We were very, very successful-And I have to congratulate the minister behind me, the Minister of Mines (Mr. Dawe) in getting the Flintkote operation at Flat Bay backinto full production. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: We were negotiating with a number of other interested col!'panies to take over that operation if Flintkote kept on its course of closure,and we were very close to having another operator go into Flat Bay. So that is open and going full blast,which I think is a very, very successful operation now, and looks to have a good future.

We are in the process of putting in place and this last week or so, quite a few, I guess there would be a few hundred now new jobs in the forestry sector throuqh our silviculture programme, I know in my own constituency about thirty or forty people went to work this past week on reforestation and silviculture programmes. We are monitoring the forestry industry very closely because of the downturn worldwide.

I do not think that youwill see a significant improvement in that industry as it relates to the mills and so on until 1984,but in the meantime,we are trying to speed up the Federal/Provincial agreement in forestry to put more reforestation and more silviculture in place on the ground. That is going to help the Glenwood area which has been hit, it is 5nn7 Ul.J/

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2388 JV - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: helping my own area which has been hit very badly, because the number of loggers who will now go to \V"ork will be down from last year~ So we are doing all we can there and, as I said,a few more jobs are,'being created,last week, next week and this week, to help that sector. The minister responsible for tourism (Mr. Windsor) has done an incredible job.

He has not been in the House all that much this session primarily because he has been out promoting the Province around Canada and the United States, and we are going to see a very, very substantial improvement in the tourism industry in this Province- And there is a very positive feeling out there among all the people who are involved in the tourism industry.that not only this year because of Sir Humphrey Gilbert but on into the future we are putting in place good infrastructure to ensure that we have a very viable tourist industry. This past week the minister was involved in negotiations with Mr. Lumley and Mr.

Rompkey to t~y to get in to another tourism agreement. We have done some pretty good work over the last few years on infrastructure facilities around the Province., The money has been all used up~ ·When the agreement was signed the money would be gone in about six months* so we are trying ---m -these-Va:rio~-sect~r~~-wa want another rural development agreement which we are working on. We got the present one extended and we want a new one in that. I just finished negotiations on the industrial development agreement,"re should be 5003

May 20, 1983 Tape 2389 PK - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: be ready to sign that in two weeks, which will see a maximum infusion of money into Port aux Basques, in the Leader of the Opposition's (Mr. Neary) district. In Pasadena we will see a few million dollars spent, in Windsor we will see $2 million to $3 million spent, in Gander we will see $4 million to $7 million spent, we will see money spent for a study on the Octagon Pond Industrial Park. That agreement is just about ready.

We have just done a roads agreement which I was very pleased with,because the federal government wanted a 50/50 on Trans-Labrador highway, we got an 85/15. ·v·ie got an 85/15 1 up from 50/50. SOME HON. MRMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: We are going to help build the road with the federal government in Mr. Rompkey's district, to L'Anse -au-Meadows,worth $7 million. I said to Mr. Rompkey, that is just not good enough , we have other roads that have to be done. He agreed after we put it on the table, that we have to do the road to the Industrial Park in Gander 75/25. That will go ahead. SOME HON.

HEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: I said we have to do Conception Bay South bypass, we have to do it. I went to Ottawa in January and I said to them up there, I will take everything off the table on roads but two to start the negotiations, to show my seriousness in negotiations, the Trans-Labrador highw·ay on a special deal of 85/15 - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) . MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: - the rest at 75/25. Conception Bay. bypass road: $12 million will be spent getting that thing going. And then, 5009

May 20, 1983 Tape 2389 PK - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: of course, I said to Mr. Rompkey, but we cannot leave out the Burgee highway. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: That was not part of their deal at all. Burgee highway was not on the table.

And I said I cannot sign an agreement even though I want the Trans­ Labrador highway to go ahead, even though I want the road to L'Anse-au-Meadows to go ahead, even though I want the Conception Bay bypass road to go ahead, even though I want the road to the Industrial Park in Gander to go ahead unless I get a start with you on the road to Burgee, because that is a very important part of our Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: And after some very heavy negotiations, after the initial set of negotiations over the phone I was able to persuade them that we have to have that Burgee road started so that will be going as well. So, Mr. Speaker, I think we are.doing a pretty good job on trying to economically stimulate a depressed econom~ and as the recovery starts in the United States and the Mainland and so on over the next twelve months,we are going to see a real turnaround in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. LUSH: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Terra Nova. Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask some questions to the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) re the cost of textbooks, a measure announced in the Budget which said, effective September 1983 the government subsidy on high school textbooks will be 50 per cent of· cost rather than the 75 per cent subsidy now in effect~ 5000

May 20, 1983 Tape 2390 EC - 1 MR. LUSH: I wonder if the minister can first of all clarify to all han. members whether below that level, below Grade IX, that the subsidy remains the same as ~t now is at 75 per cent? MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MS VERGE: The han. the Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, government totally subsidizes textbooks for kindergarten through Grade VIII. Government buys the textbooks and supplies them free of charge to students. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MS VERGE: The books are actually administered by the schools and rotated among students with replacement coming every four or five years.

In other words, after the initial inventory of books is purchased by the Department of Education and distributed among primary and elementary and junior high schools across the Province, the schools receive one-quarter or one-fifth of the total required every year thereafter so that there is ongoing replacement, but to answer the han. member's question, government totally subsidizes textbooks for kindergarten through Grade VIII. These books are supplied to school children free of charge.

The only kinds of books that students in the lower grades have to pay fa~ or that their parents have to pay for are what are called workbooks or consumable materials, materials that the students write in and that can be used only once. MR. LUSH: What do they pay for those, 75 per cent? MS VERGE: In the case of consumables, Mr. Speaker, students and their parents pay the total cost but, of course, that is a small fraction of the cost of all the materials that students use. The expensive text­ books, the regular textbooks, are supplied by government 50G1

May 20, 1983 Tape 2390 EC - 2 MS VERGE: free of charge to students from kinderga .rten through Grade VIII . MR . LUSFI : Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. the member for Terra Nova . HR . LUSH: Mr . Speake .r, I am just wondering whether the minister is aware of the impact of this particular change? . It looks very innocent that parents will be just paying 25 per cent more. Becau se,

whereas they are now paying one -quarter of the cost because the government subsidizes 75 per cent, and parents therefore pay 25 per cent of the cost of the book , now with the new plan it is 50/50, government C.. r't"'!2 .;u .....

}"1ay 20, 1983 Tape No. 2391 MJ - 1 MR. LUSH: will be paying 50 per cent and the parents paying 50 per cent. So I am wondering on that basis whethe~ the minister can indicate what kind of an impact that is go~ng to h~ve on the sharing of this burden 1 on th .e paying of the cost of textbooks to parents next year, And just to give an examp~e. I wonder if the minister can indicate What she th~nk~ a book costing three dollars this year will cost a student, therefore cost the parent, next year to indicate the kind of imp~ct that this innocent look~ng policy change will have. Ms. VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Avlward) : MS. VERGE; The hon. the Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, I think; ;r made it clear in my first answer that government is totally subsidizing textbooks for students from kindergarten to Grade VIII, MR. LUSE: I a;m t~iking about high schc;>ol now. Let us talk about high school, MR. VERGE: Mr, Speaker, for high school from Grades IX through x:u, as of September 1983, government will cont~nue to subsidize the cost of textbook;s but at a lower rate.

Instead of providing a 75 per cent subsidy; ·- . -- effective _in the 1983-84 school year gover~ent subsidy will be reduced to 50 per cent and,of course,that was announced to in the Budget Speech.

It is a measure that government I does not 1ik;e to take,but given the options ~vailable to us in very di:Eficult times,when we have forecast have a hefty deficit on our current account,it was felt bette;!;' than a lot of other options for trying to cut down on continuing increases in spending for education, Th.e effect of that decrease in the government subsidy for textbooks for Grades IX through XII w·i11 mean, as · ;I: am ISU;t'e the member opposite realizes, that a book which formerlY, cost 50~3

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2391 MJ - 2 MS. VERGE: the student three dollars will now cost the student six dollars. MR. LUSH: ~~ . Speaker. MR. SPEA..t(ER (Avlward ) : T~e hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR . LUSH : There we have it, Mr . Speaker . It looked like a very innocent change but what will happen is parents will be paying double for the books and that was the simple example that I used, a book that cost the parents three dollars this year will cost the parents six dollars next year. In some cases that is a increase to the parents .· 50~4

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2392 SD - 1 MR. LUSH: 100 per cent increase to the parents 1 in some cases it will go to a high of 120 per cent. I wonder if the minister is aware what .that kind of increase will mean in total to a student in Grade IX and to parents? Has the minister got her department to work that out in terms of what ex~ra monies that will cost one student in Grade IX next year? MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, yes, of course, my officials and I and government have carefully looked at the impact of the change in the government's subsidy on high school books.

I reiterate we have decided to continue total subsidization of books for students in the lower grades, from Kindergarten up to Grade VIII. For students in high school, from Grades IX through XII, who have been paying an average of about $35 a year for their books, with the reduction in the subsidy from 75 per cent to 50 per cent the cost will grow to $70. Mr.

Speaker, I reiterate that this is not a measure that government likes to have to take but perhaps one positive side effect will be the encouragement of purchase of second-hand books so that there is better conservation of textbooks which will continue to be subsidized by government with more than one student in more than one year using and enjoying the textbooks. MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER: for Terra Nova. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, we can now see the tremendous shift in this government's philosophy · of education when we look at what has happened with student aid and now the extra cost of books to parents and to students. Mr. Speaker, does . the minister 5005

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2392 so -2 ~lR. LUSH: not realize that this will place a tremendous fin~~cial burden. on the parents of this Province where we have boo:<s aloz:!.e to be increased from 100 per cent to 120 per cent,and one student having to pay $70 more and if we have parents with two or three students in high school we could be talking about $150 to well over $200 more? Is the minister not aware or does the minister not realize the kind of financial burden that this is going to place on many of the parents next Fall, parents who will be unemployed, no means of income?

Does the minister not rea.lize the impact and the burden that this new policy is going to place on the students and parents of this Province. 50QS

May 20. 1983, Tape 2393, Page l -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Aylward): The han. the Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, high school students with parents with no means of an income will be able to have their text books paid for through social assistance from the Provincial Government Department of Social Services, as they always have. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Fine, Mr. Speaker.

That is a noble measure, where we can have books paid for £or people who are receiving social assistance, but did the minister not hear of the working poor, the people who do not qualify for social assistance, Mr. Speaker, low income people? And to force this financial burden on a very vital area in education, where students will be paying, parents will be paying up to 100 per cent and 120 per cent increases overall, in view of this financial burden will the minister not take it upon herself to see if we cannot change the policy? MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Educa.tion. MS.

VERGE: Mr. Speaker, the subsidy will continue at the rate of 50 per cent for high school books. I do not know where the member opposite is coming up With --thefigure of 120 per cent increase. I would say, Mr. Speaker, that schools will be encouraging students taking

part in high school in the next school year to purchase second-hand books, books which are now in use by students a year or two ahead of them. That is a practical measure for students to cut down on the cost of their books. I am sure most of us can reflect back on our high school r:-nn-, Jw...i/

May 20, 1983, Tape 2393, Page 2 -- apb M.S. VERGE: years when a provincial administration of a different stripe did not offer as generous a subsidy for books and materials and most of us economized by purchasing second-hand books. And that is a realistic measure which I would encourage students to take for next year. SOME HON. MEMBERS :· Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Aylward): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Premier in connection with the distasteful behaviour of the Minister of Fisheries(Mr. Morgan) at the Fisheries Council of Canada. Mr.

Speaker, would the Premier tell the House what disciplinary action, what instructions were given to the Minister of Fisheries in connection with this matter that has so badly damaged the credibility of the minister and of the administration, a situation that may be seething beneath the surface for an indefinite period of time, that may do Newfoundland untold damage, that places the Minister of Fisheries in the embarrassing position where he can no longer represent the administration at any of these conferences that are coming up involving marketing and international conferences on the fisheries and so on because the hon. gentleman's credibility has been 5CQ8

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2394 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: battered and bruised? Could the han. gentleman tell the House what action is being taken by him or the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) to deal with this matter? MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I gave my positlLoit on that some time ago. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Oppositio~ a supplementary question. MR.

NEARY: The han. gentleman is probably still under the illusion that this matter is going to blow over, when yesterday we had a call from the Globe and Mail dealing with this matter, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, they can try to laugh it off all they want. Now,would the han. the Premier tell the House if he instructed the Minister of Fisheries to call a number of representatives who attended that conference to offer an apology?

Would the han. gentleman tell the House if the Minister of Fisheries did indeed call some of the people who attended that conference to offer his own private, personal apology? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated I have dealt with that matter. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary question. MR. NEARY: I can understand, Mr. Speaker, why the Premier is so ashamed to deal with this matter. This is the fourth time now the Premier has defended the Minister of Fisheries 5009

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2394 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: and we wonder why, Mr. Speaker. We are all wondering why. MR. MARSHALL: A poi~t of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! A point of order, the hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman is making a speech, the hon. gentleman refers to 'fourth time·. I point out to the hon. gentleman there is a procedure on Thursday for anyone who is dissatisfied with an answer received,that he can debate it.

It has not been used for the past eight Thursdays I believe by the hon. gentleman so presumedly if he has asked it four times, this is the fourth ·time, he must have been satisfied the first three times. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order I would ask the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) if he could direct his question. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, let it be recorded that the hon. the Premier is refusing to answer the questions. These are very important questions, high-quality, high-calibre questions, Mr.

Speaker, and the hon. gentleman is refusing to deal with this matter, is refusing to answer the question. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: Now let me ask the hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, if in fact his Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) did call certain representatives who attended that conference to offer his apology? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. c."" nO ..; i G ·

May 20, 1983 Tape 2395 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I have indicated to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) on a number of occasions that I have dealt with that matter. I mean, if the Leader of the Opposition gets a phone call from the Globe and Mail and wants to brag about it in this House, the first tirre he has ·gotten a call from a paper on the mainland. that is fine with me. I cannot help what phone calls the Leader of the Opposition might get from time to time. I think it is very interesting to note though, Mr.

Speaker, that the lead-off question in Question Period today was on the economy and the Leader o£ the Opposition attempted to ask a serious, important question but once the answer was given, the Leader of the Opposition slouched back in his chair, not able to follow up with another good question on the economy and now he is going on about small matters again. I would really encourage the Leader of the Opposition to stay on matters of substance so that the Opposition will perform the role that they are elected to perform. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary question, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: We will deal with the economy when the hon. gentleman lays his plans on the House and tells the people of this Province what he intends to do to deal with the crisis in the Newfoundland economy. Now, the hon. gentleman said that he had dealt with the situation. Would the han. gentleman tell the House how he has dealt with the situation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I have answered questions on this subject to the extent that I think is necessary 51 0 1

May 20 , 1983 Tape 2395 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: and I have no more comment on the matter . MR . NEARY : Mr. Speaker. ~. SPEAKER (Aylward): The hen. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, obviously the hon. gentleman is stonewalling so I will have to ask the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), Mr. Speaker, what action he took to deal with tbis situation. Did he indeed call a number of representatives who attended that conference? And, i£ so, who did he call and what was the reaction? MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN : Mr.

Speaker, I have no further comment to make other · than what has been made on that topic, but I find it rather astounding, to say the least, Mr. Speaker, that with such major issues as w= have today in the fishing industry, and all the important meetings . I have been attending over the last four or five days trying to save the jobs of appro~imately 16,000 Newfoundlanders - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . MORGAN : - that we get questions on a joke! SOME HON. t~ERS : Hea r, hear! 5i0 2

May 20, 1983 MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : a supplementary. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 2396 MJ - 1 Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. The han. the Leader of the Opposition, Would the han. gentleman inform the House if he did indeed call a number of representatives who attended that conference to offer his apology and 1 if so 1 would the han. gentleman tell the House if his apology was accepted? SOME HON. HEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Same question. Mr. Speaker. The han. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman is going to stonewall.like the Premier, he is acting under instructions.

Perhaps the Premier could tell the House if the han. minister has on his instructions called a number of representatives - MR. ¥.ARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. A point of order, the President of I refer Your Eonour to page 129 of Beauchesne, "A question oral or written must not: multiply, with slight variations, a similar question on the same .point." And (d) "repeat in substance a question already answered". Now, Mr.

Speaker, I think it is quite obvious that the han. gentleman has posed questions, responses have been given and he is just repeating in substance the same question again. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I have to rule that there is a point of order. The han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) has asked that question several times here today and he received some answers. !f they are not satisfactory, he has a·· procedur-e to -turn to on 7hursday. 5103

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2396 MJ - 2 MR. SPEAKER {Aylward) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, they certainly are unsatisfactory. Obviously the hon. gentleman for the fourth time is going to att .empt to defend the Minister of Fisheries {Mr. Morgan). Now, a question to the Premier, Mr. Speaker, a simple yes or no answer would be in order, does the hon. gentleman - MR. ANDREWS : You asked the question before. MR. WARREN: Never mind you. MR. CALLAN: Are you drunk this early in the morning~ MR. ANDREWS: Who are you talking about? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Order, please! Order, please! MR. ANDREWS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the Minister of Environment. MR. ANDREWS: I ask the gentleman to withdraw - l-ffi. MORGAN : Yes, indeed. Indeed withdraw. MR. ANDREWS: the member for Bellevue. MR. NEARY: That is terrible. MR. CALLAN: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the member is talking about. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. ANDREWS : Oh, boy! I ask for this to be recorded. t;11"!4 uiW

May 20, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : statements were made. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: I do not believe - MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: Tape No. 2397 SD - 1 Order, please! I will check Hansard to see what Oh, oh. Order, please! A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order - Whatever the hon. gentleman said, - the hon. Minister of Social Services. - Hansard will record it anyway. That is the usual tactics of the Opposition. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, there is no point of order. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Premier just requires a simple yes or no answer. Would the hon. gentleman - MR. ANDREWS: (Inaudible) by Christ. MR. HICKEY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: Meet him outside. Oh, oh. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, what is wrong with the member for Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Andrews)? Has he gone off his rocker or what. Would the hon. gentleman tell the House, yes or no, if it is his intention - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - to apologize for the behaviour of the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), to make a public - MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. Mr. Speaker, this is not only a point of order, it is also a point of privilege. Look, 51 0S

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2397 so - 2 MR. MARSHALL: whether the han. gen~leman likes it or not 1 there are rules that govern conduct in this House. I rose on a point of order a moment ago and Your Honour ruled the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) out of order. Now the fact of the matter is what the Leader of the Opposition is doing now - whether he likes the answer or does not that is beside the question- he is flagrantly violating the ruling of Your Honour. Now there is only one course of action., Mr.

Speaker, If the hon. gentleman persists in that Your Honour, I would suggest, might see fit to direct the Leader of the Opposition to take his seat and recognize another hon. member. MR. SIMMS: Hear, hear. MR. MARSHALL: And if he refuses to do that 1 there are certain recourses that have to be taken. We would all regret seeing this taken 1 but the hon. Leader of the Opposition, once again, has to know that these rules have been set down not by this government but by the British parliamentary system. And when a ruling is made by Your Honour it is to be obeyed. MR. NEARY: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Aylward)_: To the point of order, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr •. Speaker, that is something you would expect to hear in Russia or from Mussolini, you would not expect to hear that sort of thing in this hon. House. The question that I put to the Premier was the first time that question was asked this morning 1 and the hon. gentleman can try all he wants to smooth over this· situation, to cover it up. They are not going to succeed, Mr •. Speaker. The matter is seething beneath the surface, it has to be dealt with and, Mr.

Speaker, it was · the first time I put that question to the han. gentleman today. And 5106

May 20 , 1983 Tape No. 2397 so· - 3 MR. NEARY: the question is in order, Mr . Speake .r, and no points of order on behalf of the hon. gentleman are going to stop us. Let it be recorded, Mr. Speaker, that the government are refusing to answer the question. rm. SIMMS: Not true. Not true. MR. NEARY: What we need, Mr . Speaker, is a change of ru·les in this House to force 1:fle Premier and the ministers to ans\.;rer questions . ._ 5107

May 20, 1983 Tape 2398 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: The quality of the questions are good, it is the quality of the answers that people should be concerned about. MR. SPEAKER(Aylward): Order, please! To that point of order,I will remind the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) again that it is not permissible to repeat in substance a question that has already been answered orfor which the answer has been refused. The time for Question Period has now expired. Before continuing with the · business of the House , it gives me great - PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.

The hen. Premier. I think Question Period is one thing 1and the cut and thrust of debate is one thing, ~ut I am a little bit concerned as one member of this House about what is happening here today and what has been happening over the last while. The member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) has made a statement; he was sitting in his seat, he knows he made the statement. It is not good for the decorum and for politics cut and thrust is one thing between the Leader of the Opposition and myself, that is fair game.

But we cannot have members sitting in their seats making accusations and character assassination in the way that the member for Bellevue just did. We as a House cannot allow this to occur on this side of the House , any member on this side of the House or the other side of the House. That is not fair ball, Mr. Speaker, And I think we are masters of our own House. And I think it is time for .us when we are sitting in our seats ,. now and then we are going to be doing things back and forth across the House 5 1"'l8 Jl..;

May 20, 1983 Tape 2398 PK - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: but let us not go down into the depths of, you know, of what has happened here this morning. That is not good for this House. That is not good for this Province. And I would ask the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) , Mr. Speaker, in a display of good taste, to stand in his place~ he knows he said it, it was not nice- to ·- get up and just apologize or withdraw the remark so that we do not have this kind of a thing snowballing now - one member can get away with it and then another member under the heat of debate and start saying it. Let us keep it at a certain level.

And let the member for Bellevue stand up in his Elace now and withdraw his remark. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition to that point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what point the Premier was trying to make, because I believe Your Honour took the matter under advisement - PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. NEARY: But I did stand up there. Mr. Speaker, realiy.what the Premier is doing is questioning the competence of the Chair. PREMIER PECKFORD: I am asking him tc withdraw altogether. MR.

NEARY: The Speaker will deal with this matter in due course, as he will with the swear words. I heard the han. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Andrews) swear twice. Twice he swore. It may have been in reaction, in the heat of debate the hon. gentleman may have - MR. ANDREWS : On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. 5189

May 20, 1983 Tape No . 2398 PK - 3 MR . SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. Minister of Environment, on a point of privilege. MR . ANDREWS: If I did utter any words of sacrilege, I withdraw them and apologize to the House . SOI>1E HON. MEMBERS :. Hear , hear! MR. SPEAKER : Order , please ! 51 ~ 0

May 20, 1983, Tape 2399, Page 1 -- apb MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Aylward): The han. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: May I speak to the point of order that was raised by the Premier? MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order. MR. CALLAN: The Speaker has indicated that he is going to investigate the matter. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: When the Speaker asked me to - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CALLAN: When he wants to deal with it I will deal with it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The han. the Minister of the Environment(Andrews) rose on a point of privilege. I rule now that the point of privilege has been taken care of through his explanation. The point of order raised by the Premier, ! will check Hansard to see what statements were made and ·if they were unparliamentary or derogatory I will ask the member to withdraw them. MR. OTTENHEIMER: It will.not be in Hansard because the microphone was not on. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

Before we continue with the business of the House,it gives me great pleasure to welcome from North West River, Naskaupie District, Mayor Bernice Watts, Councillor Catherine Baikie-Pottle, and Miss Sue Gavern. 51 i .1

May 20, 1983, Tape 2399, Page 2 -- apb SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER(Av lward): A point of order, the han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY : Mr. Speaker, the government, obviously their strategy is to press as hard as they can to get the House closed. Mr. Speaker, we heard this morning from the Government House Leader they may keep the House open for another little while, and we are glad that they bowed to our pressure to do that.

But to keep the House open until Regetta Day, we should have something posi-tive, something concrete on the table of this House that we can discuss. Now, what about Answers to Questions on the Order Paper, Mr. Speaker? The batting average of the administration is less than 40 per cent,so I want to ask the the han. the Premier if he intends to instruct his ministers to bring in answers to written questions placed on the Order Paper, and if the hon. gentleman intends to deal with the question that he refused to answer,that I put on the Order Paper. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order the hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, obviously the han. the Leader of the Opposition is hurting because of the action of one of his members there earlier. c.~ ... 2 -.) I I

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2400 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : To that point of order, the hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker, obviously the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is hurting because of the actions of one of his members earlier, and his refusal to be an honourable man and to get up and apologize, and now he is trying to recoup this morning. MR •. NEARY: The Speaker is going to rule on it. PREMIER PECKFORD: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. We are not -trying to close the House down.

The Leader of the Opposition has been making these accusations now for a couple of weeks and the House is still open. How about, number 2, Orders of the Day? "An Act To Establish An Economic Council For Newfoundland"is now being debated, order 9, "An Act To Amend The Pharmaceutical Association Act", that act is now before the House, the one on the Economic Council is through second reading. Number 13, ·~ Act To Amend The Criminal Injuries Compensation Act",that will be done. Number 22, "lin Act To Amend The Pippy Park Commission Act".

Number 31, - "lin Act To Provide For The Portability Of Pensionable Service Between Certain Pension Plans Guaranteed By The Province". MR. NEARY: Answer the question. PREMIER PECKFORD: Number 32, number 33, number 35, number 37, number 38, number 39, number 41, number 43, number 44, number 45, number 46, and motions 1, 2, and 5. Who is closing the House down, Mr. Speaker? MR. NEARY: We are on Answers to Questions. 51~3

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2 400 · NM- 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Now number 2, on the Answers to Questions, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) asked two questions; he said we are closing the House down. I was answering that one first. The Leader of the Opposition now, if he wants his answers,just keep quiet. Number 2, on Answers to Questions over the last week or so the ministers on almost every day are answering questions. And the press knows it, Mr. Speaker. And we will continue. MR. NEARY: we do not know it and we are the ones who asked the questions.

PREMIER PECKFORD: And I can guarantee the Leader of the Opposition that not only is tlUs Legislature number three in Canada in being open the longest number of days, only the Parliaments of Canada and Ontario are ahead of us for the number of days open, this Legislature, one of the smallest provinces in Canada and yet we are number three in the days we have the Legislature open, and we will have a record on answering questions that are on the Order Paper better than any province or jurisdiction in Canada before this House closes down. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR .. SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please!

To that point of order I rule there is no point of order. 51 ~ !.;.

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2400 NM - 3 ORDERS' OF THE DAY: MR. MARSHALL: Order 10, The Pharm.aceutical Association Act, the adjourned debate. MR . SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order 10, Bill No. 9, "1\Il Act To Amend The Pharmaceutical Association Act," the hen. Leader of the Opposition spoke for nine minutes before closing the debate. MR. NEARY: The hen. Leader of the Opposition. Yesterday I as~ed the hen. gentleman a few questions about this bill, I will just refresh the hen. member's memoryJ I asked the hen. gentleman if there had been prior consultation with the Pharmaceutical Association and I think. the hen. gentleman indicated that there had been. Now, one of 5 1~5

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2401 JV .. l MR. NEARY: the main points of this Bill has to do with conflict of interest. Mr. Speaker, I wish the hon. gentleman well and I wish the association well in trying to deal with this matter of conflict of interest. Hon. gentlemen will recall, last year - I believe it was,that we passed another Bill in this ' House, the optometrist Bill, a bill to set up an optometrist association,and in the process of passing that Bill one of the items that we raised at the time had to do with conflict of interest. Mr.

Speaker, the question that we _asked as your hon. may well be aware, and the question I am going to ask again is , under that Act optometrists can not only prescribe but they can also sell eyeglasses. Now, Mr. Speaker, somehow or other we feel that principle is wrong, people who prescribe drugs or who prescribe eyeglasses or prescribe anything else, in our opinion are in conflict of interest, if they operate the premises and the businesses that sell these drugs and that sell these eyeglasses. Mr. Speaker, how can we deal with this situation? Mr.

Speaker, am I right or am I wrong when I say that this could develop into a bit of a racket? It is a kind of a conflict of interest situation that can be abused. You have the optaretrists now covered under MCP, being paid by the taxpayers to examine people's eyes and they are the very ones who also sell the eyeglasses. I am going to ask the . minister to be straight with me on this, Mr. Speaker. I feel myself as many of my colleagues do,that this principle is wrong and should be changed. There is the conflict of interest. Now we have the same situation in the drugstores; 5 1 .., , I 10

May 20 , 1983 Tape No . 2401 JV - 2 MR. NEARY: we have doctors ,bo~~ individually and groups of medical men1 who also own the drugstores they are prescribing the drugs ; you have to take a prescription,nine chances out of ten,to a drug­ store that is owned by a doctor or a group of doctors. Now, Mr. Spea)<er, will this bil l cure that wrong? Wil l it? I have grave doubts whether it will or not , it certain l y did not in the cas.e of the optometrists . It certainly did not cure that situation . As a matter of fact , all it did , Mr. Speaker , was give them a .bonanza, did i t not? It gave them 51 ~ 7

May 20, 1983 Tape 2402 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: a bonanza. Before, they could not qualify for payments under MCP, now they do. They are covered under MCP. They get paid for examining people's eye$ and then they issue a prescription and nine chances out of ten, that prescription is taken to a store that is owned by the optometrist. There is some­ thing wrong with that, Mr. Speaker. In my view, there is something wrong with it. I am not saying it is crooked but the principle is wrong. The principle is wrong and should be remedied, should be rectified. I, myself,do not like it, I think it should be changed.

We have the same situation ~ow under the Pharmaceutical Association Act. The minister mentioned in his introductory remarks about dealing with the matter of conflict of interest. Mr. Speaker, I wish the association well, but I can tell you that they are up against a hard nut, it is a hard nut to crack, the principle of whether medical practitioners, doctors, should own drug­ stores.

That is really what we are debating here; that is really what the hon. gentleman referred to when he said that one of the principal items in this bill -and I wrote them down; change of name, reorganizing of the by-laws and the disciplinary clause, these were the three principal items, and under the organizing of the by-laws would be an item to deal with conflict of interest. If we cannot deal with it with the optometrists, how will the Pharmaceutical Association 5i'i8

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2403 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: deal with this matter? Obviously, the hon. gentleman has had some discussion about this. It has been a matter of some concern for a good many years now. I do not expect the association or the hon. gentleman to say that doctors who own drugstores either individually or collectively have to sell their interests. I do not believe the hon. gentleman intends to do anything as drastic as that,but there must be some way to phase this out, to get rid of this bad policy and it is a wrong policy.

You can argue all you like about the private enterprise system and that anybody can set up a business and that anybody can operate a business, but I believe there definitely is a conflict of interest. MR. DAvJE: You cannot operate a business ~ . - -~- --· . (inaudible) once in a while. MR. NEARY: You cannot operate a business - what? What is the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) muttering under his breath? I do not know, maybe the Minister of Transportation agrees with this principle of optometrists - MR. DAWE: MR. NEARY: Yo1:1 ~·rould still have the optometrists. No, but it is the same principle.

I am using that as a comparison. We have not been able to do anything about that situation and how does the minister expect to deal with this situation of doctors owning drugstores and issuing the prescriptions, which nine chances out of ten are taken to their mm store? I know we are getting more drugstores in Newfoundland, I understand that, and maybe, Mr. Speaker, the ratio now is not as bad as it used to be. And the minister say, 'No, it is not,' but I would like to hear the hon. gentleman's views on this matter.

I would like to hear whether or not the department and the hon. gentleman agree with this principle, 51~9

May 20, 1983 Tape No . 2403 MJ - 2 ~tR . NEA-~Y : disagree with it, bow the Pharmaceutical Association intends to deal with it . Now, Mr. Speaker, these are the only points that I wish to raise . Haybe my colleagues might have some other views that they want to put forward on this bill. I am still not clear on the procedure when a member of the association is aggrieved . I am not quite certain on that. 5120

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2404 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: It seems to me that this is some kind of a special arrangement. Well, Mr·. Speaker, perhaps the hon. gentleman can clear that up for me. I know there is a judge of the Trial Division of the Newfoundland courts who would be involved. But,then, that decision of the judge of the Trial Division is that final or can the' aggrieved member of·the Pharmaceutical Association appeal the matter to the Supreme Court? Can he go all the way? Is that his right and privilege,to go all the way, to take the matter to the Supreme Court of Canada if he deems it necessary?

I would like for the hon. gentleman to - because the wording here is a bit confusing, especially to a layman like myself. MR. MARSHALL: MR. NEARY: ~Je will deal with it, you know, when - Well,it is legal phraseology. But it is not clear to me. It says, 'The appellant shall within fourteen days after service of the notice of appeal under this Section, apply to the judge for the appointment of a day for the hearing of the appeal'. It looks to me like it is some kind of a special arrangement that is made· for members of the Pharmaceutical Association.

I do not know if it is in the other acts - the Nurses' Association, the Newfoundland Medical Association - but I do not understand it. I mean, is that the final step the judge of the Trial Division of the Newfoundland court? Once the application is made to the Registrar of the Supreme Court then the aggrieved persons asks the judge to set aside a day so they can have a hearing, is that final or can the aggrieved person go all the way and appeal the matter to the Supreme Court of Canada? These are the only questions I have to ask him on this matter, Mr.

Speaker, and I hope the hon. gentleman will give us some answers. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. Minister of Health. If he speaks now he closes the debate. 5121

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2404 so - 2 MR. HOOSE: Mr. Speaker, I just want to address some of the questions posed. The first one was, of course, had the Pharmaceutical Association been involved and consulted on this particular bill. And I state yes, Mr. Speaker. That is standard policy when you are dealing with bills that are affecting health care professionals. I guess it is initiated by and large by the 51~2

May 20, 1983 Tape 2405 PK - 1 MR. HOUSE: particular group with our policy director. So there has been . close consultation with the President and,of course,the Secretary­ Registrar. That name title 1 that is the first full-time registrar that they have had, In other years,by the way, that was a job that one of the professionals, themselves, did. With regard to the conflict of interest. Mr. Speaker, what we have stated here is the fact that we are requesting by-laws and they will have the capacity to develop by-laws that will address the conflict of interest.

Now,there are a number of problems I want to point out and it could be very _difficult to make a hard and fast statement about conflict of interest. Let me give you an ~ example; A drugstore that has an office for rent1 you know, is that conflict of interest. for that drugstore to have an office which it leases to a doctor, and possibly lea~s at a pretty good rate 1 because when a person gets the prescription from the doctor he may go right downstairs to the drugstore and get it filled. So these are the kinds of problems you have. It is not all ownership, a person owning a drugstore and employing a pharmacist.

There are so many things to look at. But these things I can assure the hen. gentlemen are being addressed. I will just make a reference to the optometry, and I can tell the hen. gentleman that is a very topical issue right now, discussing that kind of thing. But it is very difficult to say to an optomerist you cannot dispense glasses, for the simple reason that a lot of them are not in close proximity to dispensers. You take outside, say, of St. John's, Corner Brook, Grand Falls, Gander possibly,you do 5123

May 20, 1983 Tape 2405 PK - 2 MR. HOUSE: not have many people dispensing glasses and the optometrists have to do it. so it is convenient for the public of Ne~oJfoundland. So you could not put a hard ana fast regulation in saying that they co~ld not prescribe and dispense. I will assure the hon. gentleman that these kinds of things are being addresse.d. It was only a couple of ~reeks ago I met with the Optometry AssociatiGn on this very matter. !-!R. NEA.~Y: Do they accept it? MR. HOUSE: What are their views on that? Oh, yes, to change it as much as we possibly can. They cannot put in. a foolproof system, but certainly there is a lot of policy going 0n by their own association. 5124

May 20, 1983 Tape 2406 EC - 1 MR. HOUSE: With regard, Mr. Speaker, to the suspension and cancellation of licences of pharmacists and disciplinary action, this is fairly standard within the profession. They set up a board to, I guess, assess any infraction that they deem worthy of assessment. And heretofore a number of years ago, we used to have situations where the board's decision was final, but we are now bringing in an amendment that -.;.;ill-give all health professionals recourse to the courts. MR. NEARY: To the courts or to a judge? MR. HOUSE: To the courts, they take it to the courts.

And when it gets into the court and that judge makes a decision, of course, if you want to appeal it, then you know it is just the normal process, I suppose, that everybody has. I guess anybody could go right to the Supreme Court of Canada for anything. MR. NEARY: Can you state that categorically? MR. HOUSE: I am assuming this, I never questioned it. I am assuming this; it is a right to appeal to the court and I guess then, the court takes its course from there. So, Mr. Speaker, the co~ents the hon. gentleman made are well taken and I have addressed them as best I can.

I am concerned too about conflict of interest, there is no question about it; all the professionals are, and a large part of their meetings address that. Because you have a situation in the Province now where, for instance, you have providers, pharmacists, the people are users and then you have third party payers. All of this creates problems and there are a lot of meetings going on about these kinds of problems. And the conflict of interest 51'!1"" ac..J

May 20, 1983 Tape 2406 EC - 2 MR . HOUSE: legislation - this is enabling legi.slation , th at is probably what it is, giving the associations the capability to do it. And we certainly aid and abet them in doing that . Mr. Speaker, with these few remarks, I wish to move second reading. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Pharmaceutical Association Act," read a second time , ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. MR . MARSHALL : Let us do a few first readings first and then we will go to the Co -operative Societies Act . 5""'" I LO

May 20, 1983, Tape 2407, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Aylward): Motion 6, Bill No. 58. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Liquor Control Act, 1973". carried. (Bill No. 58). On motion, Bill No. 58 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 7, Bill No. (42). Motion, the hon. the Minister of Education to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Education (Teacher Training) Act", carried. (Bill No.42). On motion, Bill No. 42 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 8, Bill No. 57.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Remove Anomalies And Errors In The Statute Law", carried. (Bill No. 57). On motion, Bill No. 57 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 9, Bill No. 59. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Service (Collective Bargaining) Act, 1973", carried . (Bill No. 59). On motion, Bill No. 59 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Order 13, Bill No. 24.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Co-Operatives Societies Act". (Bill No. 24). MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. 5127

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2408 MJ - 1 MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, hon. me~ers may recall that in 1980 the Co-operative Division of the then Consumer Affairs r::epartm=nt \.;as rroved into my deJJa.rt:rrent and since that time I ,have had ministerial responsibility for that division.

There have been a nurnberof, I think, fairly significant if not major steps taken over the last couple of years or a little better than a couple of years,in relation to the co-operative development in the Province,especia11Y as it relates to credit unions and what we wish to do here with this Bill No. 24 is - I do not particularly like the term housekeeping Mr. Speaker.

Some of the clauses are or can be classified in that division I think, but one of the anomalies that existed prior to this legislation being introduced was the possibility of one person,for instance,attending meetings who was a director of a particular co-operative " and that person could possibly have more than one vote. T-!e are suggesting that be changed so that one person - and this is Clause 2 - one person has one vote which seems to be a fairly democratic system and one which the Co-operative Society itself has requested.

We want to deal I•Ti th overdraft protection in this particular piece of legislation, the auditing of the books and accounts of Co-operatives, credit unions and so on as they exist today, having to do with external auditors. The stabilization fund which government 1>1as pleased to assist the credit union movement create,a little over a year ago was when it first began, is dealt with as well in relation to dividends and the suggestion is that dividends in excess of 9 per cent be now allowed to be paid . . This was a difficulty that existed in the pa~t.

Nhen one is restricted to a dividend of 9 per cent,then that created certain difficulties within the credit union movement itself as well. We would like to see that changed so that dividends in excess of 9 per cent 1 especially with. the merger which took place between the Newfoundland Public 5i2S

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2408 MJ - 2 MR. GOUDIE: C~edit Union and the Newfoundland Teachers' Association Credit Union. The NTJI. had the most successful credit union in this Province in recent history and now we have a Public Cred-it Union which will be reaching out to various parts of the Province , expanding and offering its services to other locations of Newfoundland and Labrador . This , in a nutshell, Mr. Speaker, other than t;1'1!1 ""''- .:J

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 24Q9 NM- 1 MR. GOUDIE: the provision to deal with surplus funds in terms of co-operative developmens are the items that we would like to see dealt with. And the final amendment, clause (10), would provide that extra-provincial co-operatives- 'co-operatives from outside the Province-wishing to carry on business in this Province must do so on such terms and conditions as the Registrar of Co-operatives may require that particular co-operative to enter into. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

NEARY: We do not intend on this side of the House to delay the passage of this bill. I presume the hon. gentleman had prior consultation with the Co-op Society before the amendments were brought into the House. My colleague, the member for Torngat Mountains {_Mr. Warren) may have something to say about it because I believe something very significant is about to, or has happened, in my hon. colleague's district in Northern Labrador. Now, Mr. Speaker, first of all let me deal with the last point that the han. gentleman made about co-ops outside the Province operating within the Province.

I would like to ask the hon. gentleman if that is a serious matter, if it is a problem? Are co-ops from across Canada, from other parts of Canada attempting to move into Newfoundland to compete with the local co-operative movement? Perhaps the hon. gentleman can tell us how many instances he knows of where this has happened. And as far as the registrar is concerned, Mr. Speaker, is the co-op movement now - and I know it is thriving in the Province? In ?ad times people turn more to the co-operative movement to help them cope with the cost of living C:.1'10 ..Jiu

May 20, 1983 Tape No . 2409 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: and to help them cope with their borrowing and that sort of thing . You have more co-op unions, especially within the trade union movement . But I understand that the co-op,for instance,down here on Topsail Road is th:iving and I believe they are either in the process of, or plannin9 on building another co-op in the East end here of St. John's. The history of co-ops in Newfoundland, by the way, has not been all that good Eor the simple reason, Mr . Speaker, that I sometimes wonder if people understand what co-ops are all about. I would say that the failures that we have had over the years 51J1

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2410 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: have more to do with lack of knowledge and education of the co-op movement. It seems now to be improving. In the past they lacked people with knowledge of business and banking and so forth. I believe that was· probably the reason that the co-op movement over the years had failed. But that seems to be changing now with more enlightened people taking over the co-ops, with probably a better standard of education and a better grasp of the situation. Personally,myself, I would like to see the co-op movement thrive in the Province.

I think it would be to the benefit of the ordinary people to participate more in the co-op movement. I think it could be of tremendous benefit and help to ordinary people, people with low incomes and people in the middle income bracket, it could be of tremendous help. So I do not know if we have reached the stage where the Registrar in the minister' · s department has a full-time job- is he a full-time Registrar? - if his duties are sufficient and the co-op activity in the Province is sufficient to warrant a full-time Registrar.

I hope it is and I hope that that gentleman is quite busy dealing with various matters and various problems that come up throughout the Province. I would like for the hon. gentleman to tell us, give us a thumbnail sketch of the co-op movement in the Province at the present time. rs it growing, expanding, what he perceives may happen in, sa~ the next five years with regard to the co-op movement throughout the Province? MR. TULK: How does the Co-operative on Fogo Island fit i~to all of this? MR.

NEARY;· I am not sure if the Fogo I.s1a,nd Co-op fits : into the han. 9'entleman's department -no, it does .. . - .. . not r· do not thlnk. I presume that is a producers' co-op which is a different thing altogether. 5 "1'1'1 tUL Wha, t we al;'e talti. .n,g

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2410 so - 2 MR . NEARY : about here are co-op unions, co-op societies running supermarkets and stores and that sort of thing, which is a good thing, Mr . Speaker . My hon . ,colleague may wish to have a few words on it because we in this Party certainly subscribe whole -heartedly to the co-operative movement and encourage it . And we would like to see more people become involved in the co -op movement . I know that private enterprise would 5133

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2411 JV - 1 MR. NEARY: not like to hear me say that. I know that Dominion Stores and Sabey's would not like to hear that, Mr. Speaker, but I would say that is tough, that does not concern me in the slightest. I think if people want to get a break, they want to stretch their dollar, I think the Co-op movement is the way to go.

I would like for the hon. gentleman to give us a - some of my colleagues may wish to comment on it - give us a rundown on what has happened to the Co-op movement in this Province in the last three or four or five years and if he expects it to take off in the next three or four or five years. I hear an awful lot of praise, Mr. Speaker, for the Co-op stores and rightly so, because it gives people a break. You have your specials and you have different prices than you have in the other supermarkets. MR. WARREN: They are building a new Co-op store, are they not. MR. NEARY: I just mentioned that.

My hon. colleague may not have been in the House but now that he is, they are expanding and building a new Co-op in the East End of St. John's. I regret to have to say that I am not a member of the Co-op myself. I do not know if the hon. minister is, but I certainly wish I was, but I understand that anybody can go to the Co-op and shop. I do not know what rates and privileges the members of the Co-op Society get over and above the ordinary customer who goes in there. The get rebates and dividends I presume, the hon. gentleman covered that in his oration.

But it is a good movement, I completely agree with the philosophy behind it. I encourage more people to get involved in the Co-op movement. I was surprised to hear, by the way, that members who 1::1'"'' .J1ui.f

·May 20, 1983 Tape No, 24~1 J.Y ... 2 MR . NEARY : attended conferences and conventions had more than one vote. Was the hon. gent leman serious about that that they did have - MR . GOUDIE : What I said was it was possible for them to vote more than once . MR . NEARY: It was possible for them to vote more than once, well, I do not think anyone will argue about changing that , Mr. Speaker. We are glad to have the opportunity to say a few words on this Bill , perhaps my colleagues who are more familiar with the Co-op movement than I am may wish to say something about it ~ But I certainly look forw ar d to hearing what the C,1"'5 ..,, J

May 20, 1983 Tape 2412 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: gentleman has to say with regard to the expansion, the performance since the han. gentleman became _ involved in it, what we expect to see in the future, in this Province, in the way of co-operatives. It seems to me like it is a growing thing and, as I say, rightly so. we are pleased about that and we hope that more people will become involved for their own protection and for their own benefit, Mr. Speaker, become involved in the co-operative movement. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas} : The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, I do not profess to have a lot of knowledge about the co-ops, but I am the past President of the Co-op in Happy Valley - Goose Bay and I was a member of the Board of Directors of Newfoudland Co-op Services, so I do have a little bit of inside knowledge of how co-ops work. However, Mr. Minister, probably when you are closing the debate in addition to the questions that the hon. Leader of the Oppostion (Mr. Neary} asked, could yo~ also indicate the number of co-ops that are in the Province at the present time?

It is fine and dandy to let us know about the successful ones, ·but what about the ones that are not successful? I think there are several in the Province that are having a little bit of difficu~ty. Maybe the minister could advise if his department has given any loans or grants to the various co-ops, and the amounts of these loans and grants. What has happened to the co-ops that have :Closed their doors? I think they might have been before the minister's time. But what happened to the assets and the liabilities involved?

I am just wondering if the minister's department has taken a lien on co-ops that have fallen by the wayside in the past. Meanwhile, in speaking about the success of the co-ops, Mr. Speaker, in all due respect to the City Consumers Co-op on Topsail Road, I remember in 1979 I 5,..,,.. i..iO

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2412 PK .. 2 MR. NARREN: went into the Co- op Store on Topsail Road, I w.anted to get my membership transferlTed from Happy Valley-Goose Bay to the Co- op on Topsail Road, and I was advised by the then manager, and Lt was most unusual, but he said, ' Boy, I suggest you leave your membersfiip where it is, because if you put it into this co-op you wLll los-e your shirt' . He said, ' The co-op out here is losing ' . rn fact, at that time they were about $80,000 in the red, or an X number of thousands of dollars in the red, in 1979 . C,1'"'7 u I .J I

May 20, 1983, Tape 2413, Page 1 --apb MR. WARREN: However, Mr. Speaker, since that time they have hired neN management and the City Consumer's Co-Op has been the most progressive business in the whole Province. In fact, Mr. Speaker, last year I think it paid a 5 per cent or 6 per cent dividend to its customers. I think there are something like 13,000 members-is it?-somewhere in the vicinity of 13,000 members in the City Consumer's Co-Op. As the han. the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Neary) said, we need good management. I think the han. the member for Naskaupie(~1r.

Goudie) can vouch for this, that Tarrington Co-Op in Happy Valley/ Goose Bay with management under Red McEachern,who has now gone to greener pastures, since last year,it was his management and his staff which took the Co-Op in Goose Bay out of the red and in a matter of three or four years it was made into a viable society and a viable business. I think, Hr. S:;:>eaker, the minister can back this up, the Co-Op in Goose Bay is the largest retailer of produce in the whole area of Happy Valley/Goose Bay.

I do not think the Torngat Fisheries Co-Op comes under the minister's department, but in talking about the Co-Op I could see that the Nain store that the minister's department is now managing-I really believe that of the two government stores on the coast, with a change in management and a change in direction, Nain and Makkovik in particular could be viable Co-ops. But I believe there are many things that the government turn over for the sake of a dollar, a dollar transaction for this, a dollar transaction for that.

I think t..he Co-Ops in Nain and Makkovik, if the minister's department would say, Okay, boy, here thev are lock, stock and barrel, hm<Tever, ym.' will have to pay for the inventory that is there over a period of time, you could have a good Co-Op working along the Labrador coast. S!"8 UIU

May 20, 1983, Tape 2413, Page 2 -- apb ~1R . TULK: co- Op there? MR . WARREN: What about the Torngat The Torngat Co- Op does not come under the minister's department. In fact, I think the Torngat Co- Op - this is off the record - last year did have a very difficult year and I do not think that is any secret. It is hoped that this year it w~ll get a boost from CN Marine bringing the people up North . Because I think the Torngat Co-Op lost badly in the Northern

section of their fishery last year. 5139

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2414 NM - 1 MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I notice that the co-ops in Newfoundland are tied in with the Atlantic Co-op and I think there is a warehouse either already constructed or pretty well completed in either Grand Falls or Gander, Gander I think it is. This is a \varehouse to take the bulk of goods brought in and to use it for a distribution centre for the Province.

Is this single warehouse concept that has been generated by the Co-Op - I think it is in Grand Falls or Gander, one of those places - is this going to benefit the co-ops or would it not be better to have the goods corning in as they are now? Take for example the Tarrington Co-op. I fell, just generally speaking, that with a Tarrington Co-op it would pay us probably to purchase goods from Gander than from there as they are purchasing now through Halifax. I think there is a cheaper rate for buying out of Halifax than it would be corning from Gander to Goose Bay.

But I am just wondering if all co-ops would benefit or would it be just the co-ops on the Island portion of the Province? Mr. Speaker, I have to say that since the minister's department has taken over the co-ops the co-ops have progressed, in my opinion, very, very favourably. However, sometime ago, I think it was two years ago now, I brought a resolution into this House of Assembly asking that some kind of banking service be established along the Labrador Coast from Mary's Harbour to Nain. At that time there were many, many banks interested, so I approached Mr.

Strong, of west Co-op Credit Union, and I think there are studies ·be~ng done. What I find unusual is that a report has been compiled for quite some time now, and unless it happened within the last week or so - the minister's department still has this report, or it has n~t been finalized or has not met with his approval - it has not gone 51~0

May 20, 1983 Tape no . 2414 NM - 2 MR. WARREN: back to the Credit Union. Could the minister tell me the status of this report? I think, ~1r. Speaker, that we are going to probably see some kind of a co-op banking service established along the Labrador Coast, hopefully this Summer, if the response from the minister 's officials is favourable to the Co-op Credit Union. 5i41

May 20, 1983 Tape 2415 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: We have the facilities in Nain. All you need to do is partition off part of a government­ owned store and we could have a co-Op credit union opened in Nain. This has been my aim since 1971. I have circulated letters, I have met with bank officials and the minister's department officials and I believe it is coming to a head. I am hoping that th .e minister also - it may not be really covered in this bill, Mr.

Speaker, but it does tie in with the whole Co-Op system - I was hoping that the minister could come in today, or before the House closes, with a statement announcing that there will be a Co-Op Credit Union office opening up in Nain or in another place along the Labrador Coast. Mr. Speaker, in the auditing of the Co-Op societies, I think the minister said Clause 4 provided "that the annual aucHt that co-operative societies are required to perform be done by qualified external auditors." I would think, Mr.

Speaker, that unless there are Co-Ops in this Province which do not already comply with this regulation, it is most unusual if auditors who audit such a large business are not qualified. Surely, the minister's department when they took over the running of the Co-Op Society several years ago, should first have made sure that there was an up-to-date, accurate and qualified audit done. Clause number seven says, "This amendment would remove the requirement that an officer of a Co-Operative Society be bonded. I think, Mr. Speaker, that is a good move. That is an excellent move.

I remember being President of the Co-Op in Happy Valley - Goose Bay and this was one of the so~e points with me, I do not see the necessity. If that is the case, then anybody who looked for employment, for example, in the Dominion stores, the first thing he would have to do is post a bond. I think it is not necessary and 51~2

May 20, 1983 Tape 2415 EC - 2 .MR . WARREN : the removal of that, I would think, would assist the management of the various Co-Ops to pick the most qualified person and probably a person who could perform his duties better knowing he did not have to be under bond while he is there performing a service to customers . All in all, Mr. Speaker, I think that this bill is a.welcome addition to the Co-Op Society and, in fact, I think that before I do sit down, there is one person to whom I would like to throw a bouquet and that is 51 ~t 3

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2416 MJ - 1 MR. WARRF.N: George Lawrence. I think hon. members may know George Lawrence. I have known George Lawrence since I was on the Newfoundland Board of Directors in 1978. MR. NEARY: The father of co-ops. HR. WARP-EN: And as far as I am concerned, as the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (~rr. Neary) just said, he is the father of co-ops and he will continue to give the co-ops 120 per cent of his time until he is ready to go six feet under. I know George Lawrence that well.

In fact, it is very interesting, and probably theminister already knows and probably the hon. the Leader of the Opposition already knows that there is a move underway now by the City Consumer's Co-op tht there will be - if they can get the necessary permits from Council and from Metro Board and so on - an automatic service station attached to the Co-op on Topsail Road. MR. NEli~Y: station. MR. WARP-EN: I hope they get a Petro Canada ~~d, Mr. Speaker, I would not want to let the cat out of the bag, but there could be a well-known service station and it is going to be automatic. MR. NEARY: the Co-op. !~R.

NARREN: up to the service station, You will have Craig Dobbin in All you will have to do is pull take your card and put it into the slot, put your hose into the car and sit back while it fills up and when it is filled just check in your card and the next day your gas is charged to your account .. So, it is going to be automatic. In fact, it is going to be the first one in Canada. That is right. In fact, there is only one other and that is down in Illinois or Idaho or some .where down there. This will be the first automatic service station in Canada. It will be a service station that you operate by 5144

May 20, 1983 Tap e No. 2416 HJ - 2 MR. NAR.."REN: card instead o~ by money and, th~refore, vou do not need any staff. HR. TULK: What kind of services will it have? MR. T'7ARREN: Gasoline for cars and diesel fuel. But there is no staff required. HR. TULK: Oh, I see. An automatic oil station. MR. WARREN: There is onl y one established in all of North America and that is down in Illinois somewhere. ~1eanwhile, they are running into some problems but I hope that this does become a reality and I am sure people are looking forward to it . . l1R. TULK: The sad part about that is you are taking away a job from somebody.

MR. WARREN: No, not reall y . I think this is a good co-operative move and, in fact, you would increase the dividends for the individuals. Maybe the minister in his closing remarks could also, for a little bit of information name or outline the various co-ops in the Province. Mavbe it would be very difficult. If it is that is okay, I understand. Which of the co-ops have been registered in the past two or three years? Could the minister tell us that? I understand that one of the co-ops that was formed recently, other than the Torngat co-op, is having some difficult y . 5 1 • r I 't J

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2417 so ~ 1, MR. WARREN: Finally, I th.i_nk there should be one other thing added to this bill. I do nat know if it is possible to make an amendment to it 1 maybe it i.s. outsi .de. the jurisdiction of th .e minister• ·s deparO!\ent . But . i:s · .t:t. :poss.ible to make it mandatory for a producer's co-op in this Province to come under this act? I understand there is one producers' co-op in this Province - MR. TULK: The Torngat Co-op? MR. WARREN: fishery co-op. MR. TULK: MR. WARREN: No, the Torngat Co-op is a That is a different kind of co-op. Yes.

We will take the co-op, for example, in Lewisporte or the co-op in Gander. For some time the Gander Co-op was not part of the Co-op Society of Newfoundland. MR. TULK: Is it part of the society now? MR. WARREN: No, this is the question I am going to ask the minister. Is the Gander Co-op a part of the Newfoundland Co-op Society now? MR. TULK: That is the Gander one? MR. WARREN: I am just wondering, is it possible that we can have

an act - if we · are going to have a co-op movement in the Province I am wondering if it is possible to have all co-ops come under this act? Maybe it would be a disadvantage, but I think it is very unfair to the patrons. Secondly, I would like to ask the minister if it would be possible under the act, I do not know if it is possible or not, but, say, if I am a member, or the hon. minister is a member of the Tarrington Co-op, is it possible that I, as a member, can go to the City Consumer's Co-op or the Gander Co-op or the Clarenville Co-op, for example, and produce my co-op card and be given 5'!43

May 20, 19 83 Tape No. ·24 17 SD - 2 MR. WA:RREN: the same privileges as a person who has a card for that particular co-op? Could the one co-op card be used at all the co-ops in Newfoundland. You know ; these are Some of the questions that many co-op members are asking. Like now, this summer, they are going to be on vacation, a lot of co-op members are going to be travelling throughout the Province and maybe som .e· will want to go into the Grand Falls Co-op - I think it is closed, by the way or the Gander Co-op and purchase some goods, I wonder i.f they can get the same privileges?

Is it possible that the minister can look into this? Maybe it is possible. And with those few remarks, Mr. Speaker, I would like to say again that I am quite pleased the minister has seen fit to make some progress with the co-op movement. And I only wish that the minister wou1d see fit to continue to improve the co-op movement and look at the possibility of opening up co-op stores along the Labrador Coi;ist, look at the possibility of bc;l.ving a Co-op Credit Union established along the Labrador Coast. And with those few remark .s I would like to say that I support the moves :i::n this bill. 51 Lr 7

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2418 l?K .,. 1 MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) The hon. member for :Pogo .. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I 1.ra.nt to st .a;t:t Off the couple of questions that I have for the mi .nister and t.h .e COtJj?le of points that I would like to make to him by pointing out that I know that strictly speaking in this bill we are not. talking a.b:out producers' co-operatives, we are talking about cons1:Ul)e .rs ·' co..,. , operatives and credit societies.

But I guess, under the principle of the bill, if you want to you could say that we are talking about the co-operative movement in Newfoundland and I would like to pose a couple of questions to him. As the minister I am sure is well aware, in Fogo district, in the district that I happen to represent in this House, we have one of the most productive producers' co-operatives and one of the best managed and one of the best economically viable units in Newfoundland. I say that in a business sense,almost in a private enterprise sense as well as I do say in the co-operative movement sense.

It is a society that was born, a group that was born out of desperation, when the people of Fogo Island were given several choices, either to move, stay a very depressed economic area, as they were, or, indeed, to develop themselves economically. Now they chose to develop themselves economically, to build one of the best producers' co-operative movements in this Province.

It came about, as I said before, was bron out of desperation and has proven to be one of the most productive fish-producing co-operatives in the Province, and indeed one of the best fish businesses, perhaps you could call it almost private enterprise. It has developed using the model of private enterprise, but in a co-operative sense in that the people on Fogo Island own the company, the group, the Fogo Island Co-Operative of which they are a part, so it is co-operative in that sense.

Last year, for example, I think it is fair to say, and I said this many times in this House, that you could say and indeed you can say and nobody can refute your -"' 3 J l ~i·.

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2418 PK - 2 MR. TULK: argument that the Fogo Island Co- Operative produced something like 30 million new dollars for the Canadian economy. That is pretty impressive.

If you look at the fact that there are only 5,000 people, that is the maximum number on Fogo Island, and you say, all right, what is the per capita number of new dollars corning in to the Canadian economy and to the Newfoundland economy as a result of the work of these 5,000 people - and we are not talking about 5,000 fishermen, we are talking about 5,000 men, women and children - if you look at that, Mr~ Speaker, and ask what have they produced for the Canadian economy in terms of new dollars, I think it works out to something like $6,000 per person - ~at per fisherman, not per plant worker, but per person, something like 6,000 new dollars for the Canadian economy.

That is pretty impressive. As I said in this House many times, if we had that kind of production everywhere in the fishing industry, and if we had that kind of production in every outport in Newfoundland, or every eleven outports - as happens to be the case on Fogo Island - then we certainly would not be concerned about the development of Hibernia. We would probably say let that stay in the ground because through a blowout or a ship puncturing something we might destroy what is basically a renewable resource, namely the fishery.

We could almost say keep that in the ground if we had that kind of production of new dollars everywhere in the Province. The minister who introduced this bill is also responsible for rural development in the Province. He has a very unique department, in that he r; 1 '· -g u i •t

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2419 NM ~ l MR. TULK: is responsible for the co~perative movement and the rural development movement generally in the Province. There has been some concern expressed in the last little while, and I am sure the minister is aware of this, about what is happening to the rural development movement, if indeed his department is fulfilling its mandate and is developing rural Newfoundland, and developing a better standard of livmng for our people in rural Newfoundland in the way that it was meant to and I know in the way that the minister means it to do. That is not a criticism of the minister.

I am not standing here this morning to criticize the minister and in some way say that the minister is not doing his job, but I want him to consider this, that if you look at the co-operative movement in Newfoundland and you look at, I would •say, the primary purpose of his department, whi.ch is 1 namely, the development of rural Newfoundland, the development of outport Newfoundland, I would like for him to perhaps think about and perhaps give us his thoughts today on how he sees the co-operative movement developing as a form of delivery system for the·rural development concepts that his department holds.

In other words1what relationship does the minister see for the co-operative movement in his department in relation to the other component in hi.s department, namely rural development. I think, by the way, if you look at the whole concept of co-operatives, then I think it is one of the best nethods we could use in this Province to deliver the concepts that are espoused by the term 'rural development', by the term 'development of rural Newfoundland'. I would like for the minister to tell us that. I would also like for him to tell us, since 51J0

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2419 NM- 2 MR. TULK: we seem to have consumers' co-operatives that are totally outside of the Newfoundland Co-operative Society, we have a group that are in the Co-operat£ve Society and we have a group of producers' co-operatives, like the Torngat and Fogo Island Producers' Coperatives, does he see at any point in time where all of those groups come under the umbrella of his department and does he see introducing in this House any piece of legislation to bring all those groups under one and perhaps to aid them in some fonm or other? Mr.

Speaker, I want to poin.t out to the minister, and I am sure he is aware of this, that I think the success of the Fogo Island Co-op has been due to the fact that it has been run on private enterprise rules and regulations, if you like, private enterprise principles and it has had a good managerial staff in the last number of years.

I would also like for him to tell us, ~rhaps in closing the debate on this bill, heM he sees his depa.rt:rrent developing the kind of training and so on that is needed to . .. . ~- ··---· ---·- -- - ~ - show ~ple who are interested in the co-o~rative ItOveirent heM they can cortbine _,...... ·- -- ·--- private enterprise princples along with a feeling for the co-o~rative rrovenent . . ··MR. · BUTT: ---. You are always moving to the right. -- MR. TULK: I do not know whether the hon. gentleman from Conceptio~ Bay South (Mr.

But) understands that if you talk about co-operatives then you are certainly moving to the left, and if you are talking about private enterprise then are moving somewhat to the right. Now that is a good Liberal stand to take, because that leaves you somewhere in the middle of the road where you have an open mind and that is somewhat unlike those people who are to the right, such as the member for Conception Bay south (Mr. Butt). MR. NEARY: A private enterpriser. ,-.,.,-_.1 J iJ

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2420 SD - 1 MR. TULK: Totally private enterprise. We believe, on this side of the House, that in some cases private enterprise works, and we believe that in some other cases the co-operative movement works. I can tell you that I believe you would not have the eleven prosperous settlements you have on Fogo Island today but for the co-op movement. Unfortunately the government has not seen fit to give them the services that they need and so on, the back-up to do the job that they want to do. And again, I am not pointing at the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr.

Goudie) because I understand full well that the minister's department is not a line department. That is something else that is wrong with his department, it is not a line department. Inmany cases he can only produce studies,

whereas the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), for example, say, 'Yes, we will do this'. I recognize that that is a structural weakness in his department which has nothing to do with the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development himself. MR. NEARY: It should be corrected. MR. TULK: It should be corrected.

I have been of the opinion for a number of years that perhaps we should take a look at the Department of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development as the line department, in many cases, for fisheries, forestry and so on because that is the department that seems to be out there in the field and knows exactly what is happening.

I think it should be the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development telling the Minister of Fisheries what is required and saying to him, we need this much money rather than the Minister of Fisheries saying to the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development, 'I am sorry I cannot give it to you' , or, 'T want to use it for something else'. I believe that that is a change that should be seriously considered by government. 51 C,? 1\.J£...

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2420 SD - 2 MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, as I said at the beginning, I know full well that in this particular bill we are not talking about producers' co-operatives, we are talking about consumer credit co-operatives, and the bill has something to do with credit societies, I believe, but I would like for the minister, in his closing remarks - he has a few minutes in which to close -·and we may not get a chance to discuss this concept again, to address the questions and ideas that I have put forward to him. MR. GOUDIE: MR. SPEAKER(Aylward): he will close debate. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker.

If the hon. minister speaks now The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I thank hon. members opposite for their comments, their notes of appreciation to the staff in my department for some of the work they are doing, and to some individuals in the Province who are directly involved and have been directly involved for a great number of years in the direct development of the co-operative movement throughout Newfoundland and Labrador.

As I mentioned in my opening remarks, I assumed responsibility for co-operatives, if you will, in 1980, when that division was moved into my department, and there have been some significant steps since that time. I am going to have a little bit of a problem this morning though, Mr. Speaker. I have three pages of notes, some dealing with policy, some dealing with statistics, etc., etc., and I am going to be quite frank with the han. gentlemen opposite, I do not remember all the information they want, but I will deal 51:J3

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 242l J•V- l MR. GOUDIE: with whatever I can in terms of statistics and so on. I did have some information here, Mr.

Speaker, that may be worthwhile putting forth, having to do solely with the credit union novement, not just throughout our Province but some figures on the credit union movement as it exists across Canada in terms of the assets that it has, if I can read one note, through affiliation with other provincial credit unions centrals,and the Canadian Co-operative Credit Society, credit unions are a part of a national credit union system with assets o~ about $18 billion at year end 1982, and they are part of a group of 4,000 in Canada, That is pretty significan~ I think, Mr.

Speaker, and, as a matter of fact, in 1982 if one were to take a rating system in terms of the total assets and where it would fit on the graph of one to ten, the Credit Union SocietieRin terms of their assets would have been listed number six on the corporation list, if you will, across the Country. So, obviously, just the Credit Union movement itself has played a very significant role in the development of Canada and especially in terms of development in this particular province. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) 1 when he stood to ask questions and direct his remarks _,if I understood his comments correctly, asked first of all if there is a noticeable effort on the part of co-operatives located outside of Newfoundland and Labrador to nove into our Province en masse. I do not remember if that was the term he used, but I think that may have been the implication. l>.s I understand it, no, there is no evidence of that type c. 1 r:, it vlv'-r

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2421 JV - 2 HR. GOUDIE: of movement taking place. But in this particular legislation and amendments to it, we want to not necessarily prevent that type of thing ·happening, but if co-operatives outside the Province wish to move in to Newfoundland and Labrador, then they should at least be subject to the rules and regulations, if you will, that apply to other co-operatives already located in the Province so that at least there is the ability to compete equally.

But in terms of groups moving en masse, or even to any significant degree from outside the Province, no, there is no evidence of that at this point in time. Other han. gentlenen raised questions about failures of co-operatives in the Province over the years and whether or not the credit unions and the Co-operatives have become more stable. I think it is fair to say that they have over the last number of years. ~m. TULK: Yes, in the last three or four years. MR. GOUDIE: I would say within the last three or four years, yes. I think that is precisely ... 1 ,... ,.. JrJJ

Hay 20, 1983 Tape No. 2422 HJ - 1 MR. GOUDIE: the reason - the gentleman for Fogo (Hr. Tulk) put his finder right on it. In hard times people start to pull together and pool their assets a little more, and togethe::: they come out with success written all over them. As the gentleman for Fo~o mentioned, I cannot really address myself, as he pointed out, to producer co-operatives in this Province since they do not come under this particular legislation. Whether or not they should is a different matter.

Obviously it is a polic~ matter that government would have to address itself to, but ~t certa~nly is a suggestion I will take under consideration and deal with in a meaningful way and will keep the han. gentleman informed as to what progress we make. But in terms of successes, the gentleman for Torngat Hountains 0-lr.

Warren) referred to a co-operative in my district, in Goose Bay, the Terrington Comsurners' Co-operative, of which I am a found~ng member, and as a matter of fact suffered great pain unloading trucks of goods and storing them in the warehouse etc., etc., etc., which did have tremendous difficulties in its first years of formation, as qid ot~er co-operatives, in some instances, throughout the Province, But perhaps the downturn i,n the economy over the last number of years has been an extremely strong factor, I think in the case of the Terrington Consumers' Co-operative that he referred to, t~e Board of Directors, the gentleman whom they hired to manage that particular b~siness, all played a key roie and, of course, support from the communities in the area all added up to a successful effort, and I am certainly pleased that that has taken place.

The Leader of the Opposition ('r.-t..r. Neary) wanted to know· if the registrar is fuil.,..time. Yes, that registrar is full-time now. Sam Kean is the gentleman's name and, I am trying to remel!\be'l:', I think there 5 ... ,.., iJD

Hay 20, 1983 Tape No . 2422 MJ - 2 !.ffi . GOUDIE: are eight people in ~~at p~rticular division who are involved in co- operative development , co-operative education. vle have consulted \-lith co-operatives and credit unions throughout the Province in terms of this parti cular legislation. That was another question raised by the Leader of the Opposition. Yes, they were fully consulted on proposed changes and, if I reme!11ber correctly, some of the proposed changes in here \'Tere actually suggested by them . MR. NEARY: They made the changes? MR.

GOUDIE: Yes, not only did they approve but they actually made the suggestions themselves . I was thinking specifically of the one vote per delegate sort of thing. So obviously there is a direct input into the legislation by co- operatives and credit unions throughout the Province. I will just deal briefl y with some conune nts made by the gentl eman representing Torngat Mountains Utr. vTarren) . 51~7

May 20, 1983 Tape 2423 PK - 1 MR. GOUDIE: Again I have to apologize, I suppose I should have the information right here with me or right in here, but I do not know the number of co-operatives in the Province who were not successful in any given year, including this year. I do know, for instance, in relation to loans and grants, the point raised by the hon. gentleman, that there are no loans and grants as such other than a guarantee which was put forth a little over a year ago by the Province in terms of creating the stabilization fund for the credit union movement.

The intent of that fund is to put $1 million in place, put in place, by the way, by the credit unions themselves, not by government, whereby the $1 m~llion fund will be built up over a five year period to protect - MR. NEARY: Emergency funds. MR. GOUDIE: Well, what it would do is protect the member of any ~iven credit union if the credit union got in some kind of financial difficulty and had to go bankrupt, so the investments by the members are protected. The same fund is set up for commercial banking but I cannot remember the term they use for that. In credit unions, they use the stabilization fund concept.

But in terms of loans and grants, no. What we have been doing in the past, and, as a matter of fact, just yesterday I signed another one, we have been issuing authorities to consumer co-operatives to extend their borrowing authority, if you will. And these extensions are only granted, Mr. Speaker, when the assets of that particular co-operative are proven to be able to support the amount of money requested. So, rather than loans and grants, that is the system that is in place to deal with that sort of financial matter.

Torngat Fisheries and the coast of Labrador and the asperitions not only of the hon. gentleman 5 ""! r:. 3 I 0 .

May 20, 1983 Tape 2423 . PK - 2 MR. GOUDIE: for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) but on my part as well, just let me relate for Your Honour one little incident that occurred to me in 1973 when I first started visiting the South Coast of Labrador, where there are or were no banking facilities, and there are no banking services on the North Coast: I went into a shop and I happened to have a $50 bill in my pocket, which did not happen that often to me personally, Mr. Speaker - MR. NEARY: I have not seen one for years. MR.

GOUDIE: - gave it to the clerk for a purchase of a package of cigarettes or something or other, and what I received back for change was a cheque that ~ad been inssued by social · assistance to a recipient in the community, this was the change that came back to me, and there were actually twenty-six signatures - MR. NEARY: Were you afraid it was going to bounce? MR. GOUDIE: - on that cheque, Mr. Speaker, it had been used by twenty-six people as a form of currency, so there was no banking service. Obviously there is an interest on our part, as a division of government, in a banking service, 5159

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2424 NM - 1 MR. GOUDIE: if you will, on the Coast of Labrador, and our staff, through Mr. Kean, have been addressing ourselves to that. A study such as the hon. gentleman has suqqested has been completed. we have an interest in establishing credit unions on the Coast of Labrador, but obviously the credit union movement has to be brought into this and people residing on the Coast of Labrador have to have their input as well.

So o=e all that can be co-ordinated, arrl proyidj.p.g theJ;e i~ . a, good basis for it, no p=blern, a credit union facility can be . establisbed on the coast and hopefully in the Goose Bay area of Labrador as well. MR. WARREN: Is this report in your office? MR. GOUDIE: The report is in the office and it is being dealt with right now. As a matter of fact, we will be getting reaction from the public credit union, if you will, now that we have one, because that is the only system we can use.

I understand teachers on the Coast of Labrador were members of the NTA Credit Union, anyway this type of thing, but we obviously have to deal with a public credit union and that was only created about a year ago. So we are making progressively more steps, Mr. Speaker, and moving,,we think, in the right direction. MR. WARREN: near future? ·MR. GOUDIE: this Summer. Do you think it is going to come in the It is quite possible that could happen The hon. member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren), in relation to auditing of societies made a point of referring to qualified auditors.

Qualified auditors have been used in the past. It is only a term, and I would have to bow to my colleague, the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall), the member for St. John's East. 5100

May 20, 1983 Tape No . 2424 NM ..,. 2 MR. GOUDIE: for legal jargon. I believe that 'qualified' has to enter into this type of legislation when referring to auditors in any event. It .does not bn.ply that auditors in the past were not qualified. At least that is the way it was explained to me. MR. WARREN: Legal jargon. MR. GOUDIE: Yes, that is all, legal jargon as opposed to anything else. MR. WARREN: Narre the names of all the co-operatives - MR. GOUDIE: I cannot name all the co-operative ·s in the Province, Mr. Speaker. I can get the information for the hon. gentleman, but I just cannot remember them all.

There are very few co-operatives, as I understand it, which are having any particular type of difficulty. As I mentioned, we. have £$sued borrowing authorities, if you will, to various co-operatives; tha.t does not indicate difficult-ies, it just indicates that they have certain requirements and they are taking these steps to meet these requirements. 51G1

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2425 SD - 1 MR. GOUDIE: Generally, the co-operative society and the credit union movement throughout the Province is alive, healthy, well, moving in a continuously upward position. If we are to hypothesize that the success over the last three or four years has been a result of recession 1 it is unfair to say that we hope the recession continues. But we do wish the co-operative societies and the credit union movement throughout the Province continued success and we will be working with them. And,finally, to try to address myself to some points raised by the gentleman representing Fogo (Mr.

Tulk), the idea of producer co-operatives, such as the one in his district and the Torngat Fish Producer's Co-operative and so on, all coming under one legislation, if the han. gentleman does not mind I would prefer to take that under advise~ent. I do not think personally that they should because they perform different functions. MR. TULK : What I am talking about is Torngat has a different system. MR. GOUDIE: I think that should certainly be accomplished and perhaps it is something we should be addressing ourselves to.

I will certainly take it under advisement and deal with my staff and the co-operative society in that particular, - MR. NEARY: That is going to have to be a decision of government. MR. GOUDIE: Yes. That is the whole problem. It is a large policy change and one that I cannot - MR. TULK: How about turning your department into a line department as well? ( MR. GOUDIE: Yes. I was 1ust going to address myself to that. I have expressed fEustration, Mr.

Speaker, in the past that in Labrador we should have a Department of Northern Development, Labrador Development, whatever, as a mechanism of delivering all government progranunes ·, 51G2

May 20, 1983 Tape No . 2425 so - 1 MR. GOODIE: and I suspect that is the same theory that is being suggested by the member represent­ ing Fogo district (Mr . Tulk) in terms of my department, I think he mentioned fisheries and there were others. MR. TULK: MR. GOUDIE: I suppose. Processing. Yes. It is possible to do that, As art example,! would think that in many areas the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) is setting up to accomplish that same type of objective.

But in relation to rural areas of the Province., on the Island part of the Province and in Labrador, I think it can be done, but,again, that is a very large policy area to be addressed by the government. Obviously I cannot address myself to that, perhaps the President of the Council (~. Marshalll can. In any event, Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the conunents and the positions put forth by the Opposition and I move second reading. on motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Co-Operative Societies Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Conunittee of the Whole House ·on tomorrow·, (Bill No • 241 MR.

MARSHALL: Motion 23, Bill No. 30, 516 3

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2426 MJ ~ 1 Hotion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend 'Ihe Pippy Park commission Act," (Bill No. 30) MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The han. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, this bill will provide for the appointment of an Executive Directorof the Pippy Park Commission who will be responsible for the administration of the day to da y activities of the Corrrnission." .ll..t the present time the responsibility of managing the park falls on the shoulders of the Chairman.

However, runn~ng the park is a full-time job ·and cannot be done by the Chairman unless he becomes a full-time ,working chairman. Government has therefore decided to establish in legislation a position of Executive Director to carry out these duties and responsibilities and leave the Chairman and the Board free to oversee the park without being involved in the day to day management. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: I do not know what happened to the Minister of Public Works. He just see!lled to collapse after he read a few paragraphs from the bill.

The hon. gentleman folded up like an accordion 1 trying to sneak this through now without any fanfare, without anybody recognizing it. The hon. gentleman read a few lines from the bill itself, "An Act To Amend The Pippy Park Commission Act,'' and then collapsed just like an accordion , Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not know if this is the government's own make-work project, or the minister's make-work project or if they are looking for a place to sto:oT <MaY another one of their buddies, Mr. Spea~er, 5 1 r 1 i I.J'+

May 20, 1983 Tape No . 2426 MJ- 2 MR . NEARY: The han. gentleman did not tell us how the park functioned previous to this Executive Director. Surely somebody must have been in charge of the Pippy Park. The hon. gentleman did not tell us if this job is going to be advertised, whether it will be advertised within the Public Service, whether somebody will be promoted to the position of Executive Director, '"hat the salary will be, ;.,rhat all the -perks will be, Mr. Speaker, he just brushed it off, there is nothing to it .

We are going to put in an Executive Director now to free up the Chairman and the Board so that they can carry out their other duties and responsibilies. We ll, my understanding is that the Chairman of the Pippy Park Commission was not a full -time employee. MR . TOL.T<: Who was it? 5i 05

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2427 NM- 1 MR. NEAR Y: I do not know who he was. No doubt one of their buddies. I do not know who the members of the board are now. Perhaps the hon. gentleman can enlighten the House and tell us, if he has the information. If he has not, he should send and get it and give us the names of the Chairman of the Pippy Park Commission and its board members ~ Mr. Speaker, this appears to me to be a full-time position that the y are establishing. An executive director; what a title, Mr. Spe~r, what a title! But anyway I am glad the hon. gentleman brought it in.

We have 20 or 25 applications on file down there now. MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Party is also advertising for an executive director. I do not know if they are copying our classification. MR. TULK: I suppose they are not trying to take on a PC hack. AN liON. MEMBER: It is time for the Liberals to pay their bills. _MR . NEARY : Well, every political party in Canada, I would say, has that problem, and probably in the world - every political party in the world.

I would say when you look at the amount owing by the Liberal Party in this Province, I would say it would be very insignificant compared to what some political parties owe, very small indeed, peanuts. MR. TULK: I know hotels that have had to write off $7,000 or $8,000 for the Tory Party. MR. NEARY: That is right. Hotels have had to write off $8,000 and $10,000 for the Tory Party in this Province, and so forth and so on. And then there is Confederation Trust. We know all about Confederation Trust - MR. MARSHALL: MR. _ NEARY: The previous administration. - and if the han. gentleman wants 1:, '1 ~0 I"" u1w

May 20, 1983 MR. NEARY: about it. rm. MARSHALL: MR. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: I am not afraid. MR. NEARY: Tape no. 2427 NM- 2 to open up a can of worms, let us talk Open all the cans in the world. Yes, Mr. Speaker, and so can we. You can open cans of worms all day long, Mr. Speaker, an executive director, what will be his duties and responsibilities? What will be his salary? Is it a full-time position? How will the appointment be made?

Will it be the laying on of hands by the ministe~ who seems to be the expert over there at violating the ordinary principles of hiring practices and procedures by filling up every job he can with a party supporter from his district? MR. HODDER: That is not true. MR. NEARY: It is true, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: He deals with all districts. MR. NEARY: Yes, no doubt the hon. gentleman deals with all districts. It would be a worthwhile exercise for the naieve House Leader to go down and check the list, just check the list, take a look at it, and then compare it to St. John's East, or St.

John's Sou~, or Carbonear, Mr. Speaker. MR. PEACH: MR. NEARY: MR. TULK: It i~ well looked after. The author of the book. Instead of spending all his time in his law office.) he should be representing hi .s district. MR. NEA:RY: political When it comes to political patronage and 51G7

May 20, 1983 MR. NEARY: is the author of the book. MR. 'i.JARREN: MR. NEARY: Tape 2428 EC - 1 appointments, Mr. Speaker, there Where? Right there. The administration wrote the book, the hon. gentleman is the author of it. And I have no doubt, Mr. Speaker, that this executive director will end up the same way. Now, Mr. Speaker, this gives us an opportunity to have a few words about the overall position of Pippy Park at the present time. There seems to be, of late, very little respect for that park. There seems-to be a downgrading of Pippy Park.

We hear complaints of people who live on Higgins Line, for instance, we hear a storm of protest. ~ffi. TULK: He is going to make a speech out of this. MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman can make all the notes he wants. The han. gentleman is not capable of making a speech. With all due respect to the hon. gentleman, he is not capable of that, he does not .have it in him. He has not taken advantage of the privilege of this House to get the practice. lf~. TULK: Why do they not send him up to do a Dale Carnegie course? MR.

NEARY: A Dale Carnegie course might be worthwhile, not only for the hon. gentleman but for a good many more han. gentlemen there opposite. Mr. Speak~r, the administration now have approved of a road right up the center of Pippy Park, practically a four lane highway, I~ . Speaker. 51GB

May 20, 1983 Tape 2428 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: I heard Your Honour the other day, and the member, I believe, for St. John's South (Dr. Collins) - MR. TULK: The member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry), was it not? MR. NEARY: No, not Mount Scio - certainly the member for St •. John's Centre (Dr. McNicholas) criticize the city council because they had not asked government for enough money. I do not know if Your Honour was offended or hurt when his colleague, the Minister of Municipal Affairs, (Mrs.

Newhook) said, 'Well, the city council can ask for all they want, they are not getting any more.' I do not know if that was enough for the han. gentlemen, the two city members who made these statements,to cross the House. DR. COLLINS: That is not true. MR. NEARY: That is true. DR. COLLINS: No, that is not accurate. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is accurate. DR. COLLINS: No, we did not say that. MR. NEARY: Well, if the han. gentleman wants to correct me, let him stand up~ I will take my seat for a few moments. I will let the han. gentleman correct me. But what I heard with my own ears was two members from St.

John's criticizing the city council for not asking government for enough money to repair the roads, rebuild roads in the city. And then I heard the Minister of Municipal Affairs come out and say, 'With all due respect to my colleagues, the city council can ask for what they want, they are not going to get any more money this year anyway.' MR. TULK: Unless they are nice. 5·1r.g i LJ •

May 20, 1983 Tape No. 2429 JV - 1 MR. NEARY: No, not even ,, 'Unless they are nice.' All the ninister said was that everybody knows the deficit, everybody knows the financial condition of the~rovince,,so the member for St. John's Centre (Dr. McNicholas) can suggest all he wants to the city council - DR. COLLH1S: St. John's Centre? MR. NEARY: St. John's Centre 1 and the member for Pleasantville (Mr. Dinn), .I believe,was the other one. The two gentlemen trying to get a little political mileage for themselves. Not very often in St . John's can the member for St.

John's Centre, say anything because practically everything in his district comes under the city council. Not very often can he get a chance to slip into the news 1 trying to leave the impression that he is fighting for his district. There is more to life than presenting trophies to recreation groups and to sports groups, there is more to running a district than that. But you kind of got it made, Mr. Speaker~ if you represent a riding in the city of St. John's where everything comes under the ~ity council you more or less got it made.

But the hon. gentleman seized upon the opportunity, grasped the opportunity the other day to try and get a little mileage for himself with his constituents. I am sure there havebeen complaints, you know, 'Sure, we appreciate your trophies and we appreciate the glad-handing and we appreciate the good fellowship and the camaraderie but what about the district? !·:hat about the · roads down here? So in order to slip into the news the han. gentleman, being an opportunist, leaped at the C:.1'0 ..J I I

May 20, 1983 MR . NEARY: the city council - l1R •. 'I'ULK: Tape No. 2429 JV ..... 2 opportunity to suggest to Who? MR. NEARY: The member for st. John's Centre (Dr. McNicholas) and the member for Pleasantville (Mr. Dinn.). and critized them and condemned them and said, ·~~l,look, the problem with you fellows is that you are not smart enough to ask for more money.' And, lo and behold,the next day the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) says, 'Well, hold on now, hold it now, you can ask for all the money you want,but you are not getting any ;more.' So obviously there was no 5171

May 20, 1983 Tape 2430 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: prior consultation between the two members and the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) on that matter. There does not seem to be any communication at all in that caucus. DR. COLLINS: You got it all wrong. MR. NEARY: I got it all right. I am sure that the han. the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) must have shook in his shoes, he must have trembled when he heard it. DR. COLLINS: MR. NEARY: What has this got to do with the bill? It has all to do with it because we are talking about a road going up through Pippy Park, that is what got me off on that tangent, Mr.

Speaker. But I had to get that off my chest.. I was rather amused by that, when you see two members on the government side, one a minister, by the way, making suggestions like that, Mr. Speaker, to try to get a little mileage for themselves and then to - DR. COLLINS: Is that the real story? MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? DR. COLLINS: Is that the real story? MR. NEARY: The real story? Well, Mr. Speaker, the Mayor now has accepted the challenge, by the w~y, and is putting in a request to the Minister of Finance and to the Minister of Municipal Affairs for more money. MR. DINN: It is too late now.

Everyone else had their requests in months and months ago. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we will see now. The Mayor and the City Councillors are going to put·it to the test. DR. COLLINS: Put what to the test? MR. NEARY: The suggestion of the hon. gentleman's two colleagues. DR. COLLINS: What suggestion? MR. NEARY: To ask the provincial government for more money. Your trouble is, the problem with you is 5172

May 20, 1983 MR. NEARY : is what they were told. DR. COLLINS: budget. Tape 2430 PK - 2 you did not ask for enough, that The House has already accepted the MR. TULK: The Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) says they are not getting any more anyway. MR. NEARY: But, Mr. Speaker, the City Council is going to accept the idea, the suggestion - MR. DINN: .MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the han. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the hon. the Leader of the Opposition does not want to say anything in the House that is incorrect.

Basically what happened was that I found out from Municipal Affairs that the City had asked for $1 nillion - I also found out that the City of Corner Brook asked for some money and so on - and I did not think it was enough to do the streets in the city. The City of St. John's knows that they should have their requests in about October or November, like all other municipalities.

Now that the Mayor has sent in a list, presumably - or will send in a ,list, it has not arrived yet to my knowledge - we will be able to work on it over the next few years and make sure that the streets in the city are looked after properly. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the han. gentleman is aware of his duties and responsibi .lities, but when hen. ministers speak, as the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) did at the Fisheries Council of Canada meeting, when the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) speaks, they are speaking for the administration. When the hon. gentlem~1 spoke 5173

Nay 20, 1983 Tape No. 2431 MJ - l MR. NEARY: and criticized the city council about not asking f·:>r enough money, he was speaking for the administration. But obviously the han. gentleman had not consulted with his colleague responsible for these matters, and now the han. gentleman is caught in an embarrassing situation where the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) says, 'No, I do not care what my colleague said publicly, you are not going to get the money.' So there is no point of order, Mr. Speaker.

It is just merely the hen. gentleman trying to weasle his way out of an embarrassing situation that he has gotten himself into. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): To that point of order, raised by the han. the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) 1 I rule that there is a difference of opinion between two han. members. And while I am ruling, I now have a co9y of Hansard ~uring Question Period today. MR. NEARY: Take note of my time, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: -and a point of order raised by the han. the President of the Council (Hr. ~1arshall) and a similar point of order raised by the Premier later concerning remarks which were made during the Question Period. The Chair heard the remarks q