LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOB A Friday, 29 March, 1985. Time - 10 :00 a.m OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: Th e Honour able Mini ster of Emplo yment Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, as Minister responsible for the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics I'd like to table the report entitled Manitoba Population Statistics. Janu ary, 1985. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Attorney-General. HON. R.

PENNER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I beg leave to file the Annual Report under The Fatality Inqui ries Act pursuant to

Section 29.1 of that act in respect to persons who die d in correctional or other institutions during 1984. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills .. . OR AL QUESTIONS NDP campaign workers - Provincial elections across Canada MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. HON. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Premier or the Deputy Premier. I wonder if the Deputy Premier can confirm that as many as ten aides or assistants to this government will be leaving, all at one time, to help their colleagues in the election battles now starting in Newfoundland and in Ontario. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I'll take the question as notice, but it's my personal opinion that that was a question that was asked yesterday and answered. MR. H. ENNS: I direct the obvious question to the Chairman of the Treasury Board. In the interests of the Manitoba taxpayers, if this government can do without the services of ten highly paid aides and executive assistants at a time when we are sitting in Session, is there any hope that perhaps we don't need to have them come back and the taxpayers can be spared that expense? 467 MR.

SPEAKER: The question is argumentative. - (I nterjection) - Order please. The question is argumentative. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I ask the same Mini ster, who I beli.eve in his role as Chairman of the Treasury Board perhaps had a great deal with the negotiating of the MGEA contract - we note for instance that one of the features of that was an extra week's holiday, was that in any way influenced by the activities of these kind of employees? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mini ster of Co­ operative Development. HON. J. COWAN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, as the member is aware, employees do take holidays from time to time. Th ey take leaves of absence to fulfl ll personal responsibilities; they take leaves of absence to do things that provide for fulfillment of their own persons. it's a standa rd and accepted practice for people to be absent from their jobs from time to time, and by the mere fact of their absence, it does not ind icate that they are not fulfilling a useful. function at the time they are working, but it means they are doing things that are of specific interest to them and fulfilling their own personal development.

I believe that, in this particular instance, you have that happening. lt should be well known that those individuals who are performing such a function are doing so on a leave of absence, without cost to the taxpayers - (Interjection) - Well, what the member is saying is that we shouldn't have people taking their holidays in the summer when lots of people leave at the same time, yet the system functions.

And in respect to his particular question about whether or not they are necessary at this time when we are in Sess ion, I think that, in large part, is questionable given the performance of the opposition to date and their Inability to challenge those staff to perform their function s in a more fulfilling way. So, given the fact that there is not much challenge in this Chamber right now from the opposition, I don't think that those individ uals will be sorely missed. However, we do look forward to their return. Pesticide regulations - final draft MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Mini ster of the Environment. Over the past approximately 18 months, the Minister of Envi ronment has been wrestling with new pesticide regulations which will apply for the various weed control supervisors throughout the Province of Manito ba. My question to the Minister of the En vironment is, has the final draft of those regulations been approved by him and his government?

Friday. 21 lhrch, 1185 MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minis ter for the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Not yet. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that there was a great deal of concern amongst the weed control districts, their supervisors and employees as to the affect of those regulations, can the Minister of the Environment assure the House that those people will be consulted and have the ability to make input into the final draft before it is passed, so that their concerns about how bad these regulations are will be reflected in the final product? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr.

Speaker, I don't know where the member has been for these last 18 months. The very fact that they haven't been passed yet is because we've continued to consult with the very people that he is referring to. Because we've done that, the regulation itself has been modified, keeping their comments and advice in mind in drafting it and arriving at what I consider a final draft now. As far as I know there is no concern in this regard and I am preparing to take this to Cabinet soon. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, will the Minister of Environment answer the simple question: Has this final draft, of which he indicates there is no concern amongst the weed control supervisors and their employees, been circula ted to those very same people for their comments? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Speaker, I said I did. Sch wartz, Betty - Settlement re wrongful diamisul MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to make an apology to the House. Yesterday when I commented on the settlement that I had information that was settled with Betty Schwartz.

I discovered, when I returned to my office, that that information was incorrect and I do apologize to the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, one question to the Minister, and I would have asked the Premier if he were here, but in his absence I ask the question of the Minister who is also Deputy Premier and in charge in the Premier's absence. Would she, in her capacity as Deputy Premier, accept her resignation as Minister of Community Services in view of the incompetence that has once again been evident in the administration of the affairs of this department?

Casino - Winnipeg Convention Centre MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. 468 MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my question to the Minister in charge of lotteries and would ask him if he could inform the House as to whether the government, through the Manitoba Lotteries Commission, has rented space from the Winnipeg Convention Centre for the establishment of a permanent casino facility and would ask him whether or not all revenues from casinos are now being deposited into government accounts? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you.

The Manitoba Lotteries Commission is using a space at the Convention Centre which is owned by the Convention Centre and has been renovated by them for specific use for casinos that are held there on a fairly regular basis. In addition, it is being rented for other organizations as approved and as needed by the Convention Centre. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, further to that, I wonder if the Minister could inform us whether or not the Manitoba lotteries Commission has entered into an agreement with the Winnipeg Convention Centre with regard to a long-term lease for that facility.

Secondly, I wonder if the Minister could confirm to the House that the Manitoba Government, now through the Manitoba Lotteries Commission, has hired casino managers, casino personnel, such as the people that are dealing at the blackjack tables or running the roulette wheels and that, really, the casino operation is now totally controlled by the Government of Manitoba, through the Manitoba Lotteries Commission. HON. E. KOSTYRA: In regard to the questions, I think they would be best dealt with when we have the opportunity of dealing with the detailed Estimates.

However, I will take them as notice and provide the information to the member as soon as I can. MR. R. BANMAN: Since there seems to be a move to institutionalize the gambling in casinos in Manitoba , 1 wonder if the Minister could inform the House as to why the Lotteries Commission has expanded the hours of operation, and that these casinos are now starting before noon, at 11 o'clock in the morning, and running right through till late at night. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I don't believe that there has been any expansion in terms of the number of days.

In fact, I know there has not been any expansion in terms of the number of days for the running of casinos in the City of Winnipeg. In terms of the adjustment of hours, I will look into that and provide information back to him. There may have been some adjustment in hours, but I know that there has not been any expansion in the number of casinos that are being authorized on a yearly basis, nor has there been any increase in the number of days for casinos. I do know, Mr.

Speaker, and the member might be interested, that the most recent casino that was run, under the new system by the Man itoba Lotteries Foundation, by the Festival du Voyageur, brought the greatest profit to the Festival du Voyageur in any of its years of experience with the casinos in Manitoba.

Friday, 29 March, 1985 Livestock Inspection - Drought areas MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I have a question for the Acting Minister of Agriculture. Mr. Speaker , could the Acting Minister of Agriculture ask the Minister of Agriculture whether or not they are hiring livestock inspectors to count the livestock herds in the drought area of Manitoba where drought funds were provided last winter? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. J. BUCKLASCHU K: Ye s, Mr. Speaker , in the absence of the Minister, I'll take that question as notice. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker , could the Minister provide the numbers of people who are not keeping sufficient numbers of cows as of the 1st of April? lt is fairly urgent because the stipulation was that they had to maintain 75 percent of their herds until 1st of April of this year. How many people have not met that requirement and if they have not met that requirement, will they be forced to pay that drought money back this spring? CN Yard and Transcona Shops - Impending layoffs MR. SPEA KER: The Ho nourable Member for Concordia. MR. P. FOX: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

My question is to the Minister of Labour. I've had a number of concerns expressed in my constituency in respect to the impending layoffs at the CN Yards and also the Transcona Shops. The members are asking whether we, the government, will be doing anything to make representation to the federal Ministers in respect to the unemployment insurance benefits that they are to receive and also the impending layoffs can be ameliorated? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Ye s, Mr. Speaker .

In answer to the latter part of the question, I know that my colleague, the Hono urable John Plohman, has ·made representations to the Minister of Transportation in respect to the disruption of work at the railroad yards. Our expectat ions were that the Federal Government would honour the und ertakings in respect to the developments of lightweight railway cars there. I know my colleague has been pressing for restoration of that program which seems to have been taken off the rails - if you'll pardon the pun. Mr.

Speaker , in respect to the concerns about severance pay, this government and this Minister are appalled that the Federal Government is going to continue what we thought was a trial balloon in suggesting that severance pay would have to be used up before unemployment insurance benefits were attained. We had hoped that the Federal Government wouldn't be pursuing this, but to all reports the Federal Minister is still set on pursuing this policy. lt perplexes this government and this Minister that the Federal Govenment would attack the unemplo yed when they have millions of dollars for banks and trust companies, Mr.

Speaker . 469 Dutch Elm Disease - Grants for removal of trees MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kirk field Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Ye s, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Natural Resources. In light of a report that the elm trees are dying in the City of Winnipeg more quickly than had been expected, and that the city has asked the Minister for matching grants to accelerate the removal of trees from inner city boulevards, would the Minister tell the House if he is giving the grants to the city? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Ye s, Mr. Speaker .

I know that my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources has ongoing consultation in respect to the concerns about Dutch Elm Disease, not only with the City of Winnipeg, but the participating communities under the program that is in existenc e between the government and all those who share in that program. Through the efforts of that program, we have been able to curtail the spread of Dutch Elm Disease within the communities. The extent of the loss has been kept at a reasonable margin.

I admit, however, that there is reasonably based apprehension of continued vigilance in respect to the eradication or at least the prevention of the rapid spread of the disease. lt's very difficult to elimi nate this disease, because once it takes hold there is virtually no way to eradicate it. However, the question of supplementary funding in respect to enhanced Dutch elm disease programming is one that is better dealt with during the course of the Minister of Natural Resources' Estimates. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr.

Speaker , in light of the fact that the Dutch Elm Disease seems to be rampant and is accelerating rapidly, what the City of Winnipeg is trying to do is slow down the spread. The question I have to ask the Minister is, what commitment do they have to the city to prevent the spreading of the disease and to save the elms in Winnipeg? That is the most important question, not to be watching, but what are they planning to do about it? HON. A. MACKLI NG: Mr.

Speaker , despite the times of difficult fiscal returns to the province, both reductions from taxation and the squeeze that Ottawa has put on us in respect to monies that are due this province, we have continued to maintain essential programs including <

Frl•y, 1t March, 1916 the program that I alluded to earlier -$350,000 has been contributed to the City of Winn ipeg in respect to Dutch Elm Disease prevention and eradication of the diseased elms. We admit we'd like to do more, but we would like the city itself to do as much as it can. Last year, for example, we launched a volun teers' prog ram and volunteers assisted the city and the province in a co­ operative effort to identify diseased trees to assist in eradication of those diseased trees.

In respect to restoration or planting of new trees, certainly the Department of Natural Resources has been looking at that and is prepared to offer assistance, I believe, to those communities affected. We have reciprocal arrangements with Indian Head for the bringing in of trees and I'm sure that my colleague, the Minis ter of Natural Resources, would welcome any joint initiatives by towns or cities who would be concerned about acquiring trees from Indian Head through our auspices. Headingley Jail - Death of inmate MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G.

MERCIER: A question to the Attorney-General, Mr. Speaker. In a report which he tabled this morning with respect to setting out information with respect to persons who died during the past year in correct ional institutions, there appears on the second sheet, File No. 2006, da te of death No vember 19, 1984 at Heading ley Correctional Institute, a person died of a gunshot wound to the head.

I wonder if the the Min ister - and 1 appreciate that he might like to take it as notice - could indicate and advise the House whether or not the person who died suffered the gunshot wound before or after incarcerat ion, and whether or not there have been criminal proceedings instituted and, if not, whether an inquest will be held. HON. R. PENNER: I will take that question as notice, Mr. Speaker. Equalized assessment - Adjustment of MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Mini ster of Municipal Affairs. City Council is meeting toda y to deal with fin alizing th e taxes for 1984.

Yesterday, the Minister indi cated the province might be prepared to provide some financial compensation to the city with respect to the $635,000 the city says they will have to raise because of the provincial decision to require the city to levy taxes according to the old assessment, not taking into consideration the reduction in assessment in Janu ary.

My question to the Mini ster is, will he, on behalf of the government, be indi cating to the City of Winnipeg that the province will be providing some financial assistance in this regard, or what action will the Provincial Government be taking in order to help the city resolve this problem? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Mun icipal Affairs. 470 HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker. First of all, I think I should clarify from the

preamble of the honour able member's question, that there was no suggestion yesterday, nor has there been in the past by this government, that the province would assume responsibility for the funds in the current year.

What I said yesterday and what I told the Mayor and the Chairman of the Finance Committee and the Chairman of Executive Policy Committee at our meeting yesterday at noon was that if the equali zat ion assessment levels established by the provincial/ municipal assessor were found in any way to be a liability for the city in the future with regard to the levy of $635,000 on the commercial/indu strial classification, since that levy is set by the province, that equalization of assessment, that we would have to accept the responsibility for any challenge of that levy by those ratepayers in that classification.

I communic ated that to the mayor yesterday and I ind icated that I hope to be able to give him that commitment in writing before the council meeting at 1 o'clock this afternoon. I hope to have that letter done later on this morning. Mr. Speaker, I think it is important to understand here that the funda mental problem which the Member for St. Norbert asks the province to throw money at, to bail the city out, is that the city has not reassessed for a very long time. Their assessment is out of date.

Properties do not bear a fair relationship one to another throughout the city, and until that reassessment is done, the base of the city will be challenged and the province does not have the resources. Nor do I think it would be proper for the province to go out and find through taxation the resources to solve all of those problems. The city has to assume first responsibility for addressing those difficulties. A consequence of the freeze of equalization in Bill 105 in 1983, which honourable members opposite supported at the time, is directed to this Municipal Board decision which is creating this problem.

On a $9 million refund, there's a $635,000 problem. That's the bottom line. We do not intend to throw money at it, Mr. Speaker, we intend to ask the city to live up to its responsi bilites. Schwartz, Ba tty - Settlement re wrongful dismissal MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minis ter of Community Services.

I would ask the Minis ter if she would und ertake to review the proposed terms of settlement with Betty Schwartz, to advise the House in due course whether or not she approves of same, and to notify the House of the full details of the settlement when such a settlement is arrived at.

Would she also advise the House whether the Interim Board of Children's Aid Society will have authority to conclude a settlement after April 1st when, as I understand it, the Regionql Childr en's Aid Boards will assume responsibility in that area and if the Interim Board of Children's Aid Society doesn't have authority, who will be approving a settlement with Betty Schwartz? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services.

Friday, 29 March, 1985 HON. M. SM ITH: Ye s, Mr. Speak er, the interim board will have legal authority to wind up a few elements in its busine ss until the end of June. They are the people who will be carrying on the negotiation. Again, any comment on the se ttlement, I think, is mo st appropriately sought from them. Grain prices - Reduction of by Wheat Board MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MA. A. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question is directed to the Acting Minister of Agriculture.

In view of the fact that there is further bad news emanating from the Federal Government on impact on farmers, I would ask the Minister, in view of the announcement by Mr.

Charlie Mayer, Minister responsible for the Wheat Board, whether or not the Acting Minister can advise the House what in fact the announcement of reductions in the intitial price of grain, from $10 to $20 per tonne, what impact this will have on Manitoba farmers and if he could advise as well if the Department of Agriculture and the Minister has been in touch with the Minister responsible for the Wheat Board to apprise him of the impact of tl)is decision on Manitoba farmers. MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. J. BUCKLASCHU K : Thank you, Mr. Speak er.

In the absence of my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, who's out in rural Manitoba listening to Mani toba farmers, I would ind eed be pleased to respond. lt is unfortunate that within a matter of two or three days we hear news of events that will impact rather negatively on the incomes of Manitoba farmers; and it's regrettable, also surprising, when we have a Federal Government that is supposedly the friends of Western Canadian farmers. Mr. Sp eak er, there is no que stion that the announcement . . MA . SP EA KER : Order please. The Honour able Opposition House Leader. MA. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker , how long do we have to tolerate this Punch and Judy Show that goes from the back row to the front row? The Minister of Agriculture is not in the House. We're not going to make a federal case out of it. His Acting Minister doesn't have to stand here regretting that he's not in the House, that he's listening to farmers. I assume that he's listening to farmers, Mr. Speak er, but I appeal to you that the question period not be abused in the manner and way that it's being abused this morning. MA. SPEAKER: I would hope that no member would wish to abuse question period. The Honourable Minister of Housing.

HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I'm sorry, I don't regard the impact that this is having on Manitoba farmers as having anything to do with a 471 Punch and Judy Show. it's a very serious matter and it's about time the opposition realized that and started trying to play little games with very serious concerns.

There's no question that the announcement of the reduced grain prices will have a negative impact on Manitoba farmers, and this is as a result of a surplus of wheat and feed grains on the world market. it's also an outcome of the misguided economic policy in the United States where the American farmers have had their support levels cut and will be increasing their production to simply keep up with their existing incomes, if they can do that. Our government has urged the Federal Government to raise the price of dome stic wheat.

Letters have been sent to the Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board; letters have been sent to the Mi nister of Agriculture and we have endo rsed the position taken by United Grain Growers that the domestic wheat price be increased to $10 a bushel. it's regrettable that no action's been taken, but it's, I suppose, not surprising in view of the comments by the Federal Minister who feels that reduced input prices, higher market prices and lower inte rest rates are something beyond his ability to control, and that's reported in the Brandon Sun on the 14th of this month. In additi on, Mr.

Speaker , we have called for a resumption of the International Wheat Agreement, discussions on the International Wheat Agreement, to obtain some sort of co-opera tion, rather than ·the competition that's been taking place so that the best interests of both consumers and producers can be served. Furthermore, we will be contacting the Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board to again express our concern about what is happening In respect to grain prices and other issues. Vicon - government assistance to MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russell. MA. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

Here's a classic example of a government that's running scared, running scared. Can you believe what you're seeing? Mr. Speaker , I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs, and this is a good question for the farmers, that they're very interested in at this time and the taxpayers. How much is the government prepared to grant to Vicon in their purchase of Co-op Im plements so they can hop efully overcome the Manitoba provincial payroll tax? MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KO ST YA A: Thank you, Mr. Speak er.

Discussions with respect to Vicon are still continuing and I think continuing quite favourably with the union; and the government is looking at various options with respect to that operation to see that it does locate here in the Province of Manitoba.

Friday, 28 Merch, 1185 Lotteries Foundation - Advertising campaign HON. E. KOSTYRA: While I'm on my feet, Mr. Speaker , there were some questions taken as notice - one by me, just over a week ago, one by my Acting Minister in my absence, regarding the lotteries. There was a question asked if the Manitoba Lotteries and Games Comm ission is budgeting to conduct a public awareness campaign. I can confirm that the commission has budgeted some $95,000 for this thrust and creative proposals from suppliers are being reviewed at the present time. Gravure Graphics - Fees re guarantees HON. E.

KOSTYRA: In addition, I took a question as notice as from the Member for La Verendrye regarding a development agreement between the Government of Manitoba and Gravure Graphics Ltd. There were questions asked as to whether or not there would be fees payable by the company for the guarantees. I can confirm that there are fees of 2 percent per annum charged quarterly with respect to the guarantees that have been paid for by the company. In addition, there were questions regarding the arrangements for the loan and the amortization period.

One loan is a conditional interest-free loan; the interest aspect is payable, if there is a default, at the rate of 14.875 percent. The second loan, which is a straight loan, has a term of 10 years with interest at 13.875 percent. Vicon - finalization of sale MR. SPEA KER : The Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russell. MR. W. McKEN ZIE: I have a supplementary question for the same Minister, Mr. Speaker .

With seeding operations almost with us at this present time, can the Minister advise the House - and especially those people that have Co-op implements on their farms - as to when they could possibly visualize the final arrangements between Vicon and Co-op Implements will be announced in this House? HON. E. KOS TYRA: First of all, the Co-op sales network is still in place and will continue. With respect to Vicon, we are working with them and it is really in the company's hands.

I know recently they were turned down for Federal Government assistance and they're looking at appealing that and I guess that has added to the time; but it is certainly within the realm of possibility that will be resolved in the very near future. MR. W McKEN ZIE: Mr. Speaker , I'm still waiting for the Minister to advise the House how much money is the province prepared to offer to Vicon? HON. E. KOS TYRA: If there is to be any assistance to the government by the Govern ment of Manitoba to Vicon, that will be announced, if and when those arrangements are concluded. 472 PLO terrorist publication - Funding of MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This week we received a document produced by the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation . A MEMBER: Oh, they're at it again, are they? MR. D. ORCHAR D: . . . the title being, "Sharing our Heritage, Ethno-Cultural and Religious Celebrations." My question for the Minister of Cultural Affairs is, in view of the fact that the third celebration listed in this group is, Armed Struggle Day - Palest inian.

This day has been set aside by the Palestinian Liberation Organization as the day marking the first attempts of the armed arm of the organization to regain that part of former Palestine, which is today the State of Israel. Can the Minister of Cultural Affairs indicate whether this gives government tacit approval of the terrorist organization, the PLO, and their slaughter of innocent people throughout the world? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The answer to the question is no, the government does not endorse that particular festival or celebration. I should explain that that document was prepared upon request of a number of organizations that felt it would be useful to have a list of the organizations. lt was prepared, not by the Government of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker , but it was done in co-operation with Mrs. Olga Fuga and was done by the Assoc iation of Chr istians and Jews that did it on behalf of the government and prepared the information for us. MR. D. ORCHARD : Mr.

Speaker , surely the people of Manitoba would find offensive government mone y being spent in the promotion of a PLO terrorist day of celebration. My question to the Minister is, will he remove the Celebration of Arms Struggle Day supporting a PLO terrorist day of celebration published at public expense, will he remove that day of celebration by the PLO terrorist organization in response to the decency that most Manitobans have and the offence they take at having that PLO terroris t day celebration as part of the ethn o-cultural community of Manitoba? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I will raise the member's concern with the organization that prepared that material for that list. MR. D. ORCHARD : Mr. Speaker , I'm not asking the Minister to raise the issue with the organization. I'm ask ing him if his government will stop funding a publication in which Arms Struggle Day, in celebration of the PLO terrorists, will be promoted using taxpayer money in the Province of Manitoba? As the Minister responsible for the publication of this document, will he remove Arms Struggle Day, the PLO terrorist organization's day of celebration?

Friday, 21 March, 1985 HON. E. KOSTYAA: Let me make it very clear that that list was put together by an organization at the request of the community to have a long list. We are not endorsing any of the dates that are listed in there; it is merely an information piece that can be used by the comm ittees or interested parties.

I will bring the member's concern about that specific date to the organization that prepared the material, so that it can be looked at in terms of revie wing that publication as it is being repu blishe d in the future, but it is not any endorsation of any dates, it's merely a listing that was provided to us by the organization. ARM Industries, Brandon - Number of employees MA. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MA. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Community Services.

Can the Minister of Community Services advice the House how many full­ time staff are employed at ARM Industries in Brandon? MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: I'll take that question as notice, Mr. Speaker. MA. B. RANSOM: Will the Minister also take as notice then a question relating to how many traine es are involved in the program at ARM Industries? HON. M. SMITH: Ye s, Mr. Speaker. Oil and Gas Indust ry, Canada - Negotiations with provinces MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MA. D. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the Min ister of Energy and Mines. This past week we have seen the unravelling of a very secret negotiations between the Government of Canada and the oil and gas producing provinces, the primary producing provinces of Alberta, Saskatchewan and British Columbia. Was there any consultation with our Minister between the Government of Canada and the Province of Manitoba either prior to or during these negotiations? MA. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PAAASIUK: Mr. Speaker, the Province of Manitoba does not have an agreement with the Federal Government.

The Federal Government didn't consult with the Conservative Government when they reached an agreement between themselves and Alberta and Sask atchewan and B.C. with respect to a prior agreement on oil and natural gas.

We haven't been consulted specifically on this matter, although we made our concerns known to the Federal 473 Minister of Energy and to others that we expected that there should be a balanced approach and that the impact of changed oil prices on the consumers and on the economic performance of this province and on the economic performance of the country and on farmers should be taken into account when people are changing any type of regime. MA. D.

SCOTT: A supplementa ry question, from my understanding of the report, there are massive tax reductions for the oil industry and I'm wondering if the Min ister has received any information from the Government of Canada in regard to how much of that tax concession to the oil industry were passed on to consumers so con sumers in Mani toba and other provinces can actually see some benefits from this new oil pact between the Government of Canada and the primary producing provinces? HON. W. PAAASIUK : Mr. Speaker, the estimates of the amount of tax relief to the private sector aren't clear.

Some sources are indicating that it's In the order of $800 million, some sources are indicating that it could be in the order of $1.3 billion, Mr. Speaker. But there are no assurances that any of these savings will indeed be passed on to the consu mer . The only assurance that the Minister of Energy federally has indicated is that she did not believe, or she said that there would not be an increase to consumers. . However, this is onlY. one side of the equation.

Last night the Federal Prime Minister indicated that he would not rule out, he couldn't rule out, substantial increases on gasoline taxes In the Federal Budget, so we'll have to wait and see until after the Federal Budget, Mr. Speaker, to determine whether in fact there has been a significant impact, increase-wi se, in terms of added oil prices or prices for chemical feed stocks or fert ilizer inputs on Manitoba-paylng consumers. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MA. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for lnk ster. MR. D. SCOTT: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementa ry.

I had a little bit of difficulty hearing the Minister in the last few moments of his comment. Is he saying that although there has been a very massive tax reduction for the oil and gas sector, that the Government of Canada is now considering replacing that tax deduction with taxes on consumers, so that there will be no reduction nec essa rily to consumers' oil prices, but there may well, in fact, be price increases to consumers when we have a massive tax saving for the industry and nothing whatsoever for consumers? HON. W. PAAASIUK : We have not received . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, Order please.

Would the honourable member care to rephrase his question to indicate that it is a matter within the admin istrative com petence of the Minister? MA. D. SCOTT: Mr. Speaker, if I attempt to rephrase it - my understanding is that there is a consultation

generally between the provinces and the Government of Canada when there is major tax reform. I'm wondering if, in these consultations, and I had some difficulty listening to it because of the noise of the members opposite at the end of his remarks, whether or not there will be actual tax savings passed on to the consumers or is the Government of Canada also now hinting that they will be replacing the tax losses that they are having with the oil and gas sector on to the con sumers? HON.

W PARASIUK: I have received no guarantee from the Federal Government or the indus try that this accord will lead to lower fuel prices for Manitob ans, especially hard-pressed farmers, Mr. Speaker, who just the other day were making representation to me and the Mini ster of Municipal Affairs asking us to try and lobby the Federal Government to ensure that their fuel prices didn't go up and to ensure that the prices of their inputs into production for agriculture; namely, chemicals and fertilizers didn't go up as well, Mr. Speaker.

We don't have that assurance and we'll have to wait and see until after their Federal Budget to determine whether in fact ultimately there will be an in crease to consumers and to Manitoba farmers in particular, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Orders of the Day, may I direct the attention of members to the gallery where there are 20 exchange students from New Brunswick; and there 40 students of Grade 12 standing from the Notre Dame Collegiate under the direction of Mr. Cenerini.

The school is in the constituency of the Honour able Member for Turtle Mountain. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this morning. NON-POLITIC AL STATEMENT MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 1 beg leave of the House to make a non-poli tical statement. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: I take great pleasure this morning to introduce the Altona Bisons Bantam Baseball Team. They're right over there. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, here! MR. A.

BROWN: This league won the league title going undefeated in the South Central Minor Baseball League. From there they advanced to the 8-team Preliminary Provincial Tournament in Morden and won this with an unblemished won-loss record. 474 From there they advanced to the provincials in Transcona winnin g the "A" side and edging out Winn ipeg South in the A-B final in two extra innin gs. From there they went to British Columbia and they won the Western Canadian Championship, finishing runner-up to British Columbia in round robin play, and defeating Delta, British Columbia twice on the final day of competition.

They took home Manitoba's only gold medal honours bringing the Bantam title back to Manitoba after an absence of 20 years. For their accomplishments they were awarded "Team of the Year" in Manitoba and coach Rick Penner was named "Coach of the Year." Their overall win was 22 wins; 3 losses; 1 tie. I would like you to join me in congratulating them. ORDERS OF THE DAY BUDGET DEB ATE MR. SPEAKER: On the propo sed motion of the Honou rable Mini ster of Finance and the amendment thereto proposed by the Honou rable Leader of the Opposition, the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie has nine minutes remaining. MR. L.

HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When I left off last evening I was referring to an interview that Dr. Glen Lowther had with the press. Dr. Lowther, a former director for the centre for many years, was expressing his views regarding the closure of the Nurses School at Portage la Prairie. Dr. Lowther, in his interview said that he hoped he would be able to present his case to the committee before that final decision was made. Mr. Speaker, Dr.

Glen Lowther said in an in terview that he is worried that if the Manitoba Development Centre is closed there could be a lack of trained personnel to care for the mentally handic apped. "I am very concerned, particularly when a large number of residents are going into the community setting," Dr. Lowther said. He said, "Trained personnal are needed to staff group homes and provide support services. As well," he noted, "overall services for the handic apped in the province are being expanded." Lowther, a former director of the centre said, "The school offers valuable specialized training.

As well," he added, "any institution worth its salt also offers training and does research." Mr. Speaker, much has been said about the Welcome­ Home Program th at has been ins titu ted by the Government of the Day. From the information I am receiving from sources who are directedly equated with the different institutions, they are saying that it will be very difficult to select 220 patients who will be able to cope with the outside world. In my own community, Mr.

Speaker, I know of a few patients who toda y are out working und er some guidance from businessmen in Portage la Prairie and for the most part, it is working well, but I also know, Sir, of some cases where the practise of placement of patients in the community is creating problems. The most recent complaint was when a private group known as the Quest Group Home Services Incorporated

Friday, 29 March, 1985 approached the city council for approval to purchase a large home on Royal Road South in Portage la Prairie for the purpose of establishing a group home for eight girls between the ages of 10 to 15 years of age. I wish to bring to the attention of this House what came from that mee ting. "Council backs Neighbourhood against Group Homes." lt is a lengthy report but, Mr. Speaker, I do want to say that the problem is going to be there for some time to come in regard to the placement of patients from these mental institutions in our communities. Mr.

Speaker, it must be obvious to the Premier and to the Minister of Communi ty Services and to the Minister of Health that the move to close out the School of Psychiatric Nursing in Portage la Prairie, where they're training anywhere from 20 to 25 students annually in two-year course, is an unjust move on the part of this government in a community the size of Portage la Prairie or any small community in the province. The arg ument that the move is based on the economics available is a different mode of training psychiatric nurses. lt will need to be explained more thoroughly during the Minister 's Estimates.

The Minis ter of Commun ity Services, when questioned on March 12th stated and I quote, "As gover nment, we have a responsibility to manage the affairs of the province efficiently and effectively and we intend to do so." Mr.

Speaker, it is her duty and her responsibil ity, as a Minister, to do equal justice to all Manitobans, regardless of what constituency they may come from. lt should be of some concern to the Minister that the proposed move that she and the gover nment are contemplating in respect to the closing out of this Psychiatric School of Nursing at the Mani toba Development Centre, that the move will impose great financial hardship to my community which I represent and to the well-being to the mentally retarded in Manitoba. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Mem ber for Concordia. MR. P.

FOX: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In discussing the Budget and its implication for Manitobans, it is important to put it in perspective, Mr. Speaker. We all know the seriousness of the recession we've just been having and it has had an effect which has been very difficult on all of the provinces; not only Manitoba, but in particular we have to look at what it has done to Manitobans. Our government, in this Fourth Budget, has followed a set of principles clearly committed in the last elec tion.

Our commitment to social and economic justice has not wavered , despite the policies of aimless restraint and slashing elsewhere on this continent. Acute protected restraint was tried here in the late 1970s and it failed miserab ly. Cut bureaucra cy, cut spending to reduce the deficit, reduce taxes and somehow we'll all be rich, we were told. Of course, what happened was the Conservatives created a people and business deficit unparallelled in our recent history.

Narrow ideological doctrine may have satisfied the 475 tastes of the members opposite, but it didn't create jobs except for a few political aides and fellow travellers. All it created as business insecurity and mistrust. First, they tried to kill Autopac, Mr. Speaker. They hired what they thought would be safe chairman from the far right, the Fraser Institute, to produce a report showing that Autopac was incompetent and a drain on the taxpayers. Unfortunately for them, though the report said what they wanted, get rid of Autopac, there was nothing in the report to justify that conclusion.

Why should $100 million public asset be thrown away? There was no answer. The main problem according to the report was that rather than paying dividends to selected shareholders, Autopac policyholders throughout the province pay less money in premiums. Why change it? At the same time, an Ontario Legislature study said the three public plans in Canada were far more efficient in percent premiums paid out in claims than private companies in that province. Autopac was the most efficient of all returning 82.8 percent on the premium dollar in claims.

And yet just this week, the Member for Emerson complained where's the profit in Autopac. Mr. Speaker, it seems the Conservatives have learned nothing and it is clear that they will be in opposition for some years to come. - (Interjection) - The mem ber beside me says they're "out to lunch". I'm afraid that's true. The member says he doesn't mind us investing in hospitals, but what about profits? We ll, I see Alberta is going to go for private hospitals, profit-making hospitals. Can you imagine, Mr. Speaker, this province going in to make a profit on the misery of people where they have no choice?

Who wants to be sick? Who has a choice about being sick? Yet in the Province of Alberta, they are going to have an experiment where they are going to try and make a profit on that. What does the Mem ber for Emerson mean Autopac doesn't make enough profits? Does he want Autopac to increase premiums to the level the people in Ontario and the people in the Martimes are paying? The last time these people were in office, they wanted to kill Autopac, but they didn't dare. Next, they tried to discredit Hydro. Again, they had a commission set up, the Tritschler Commission.

I'm following my notes very closely because I want to be on time, Mr. Speaker. Once again, these ideologues contracted a political report and tried to make their conclusions fit the study. They were no more successful than the time before, but in the process, they did manage to damage the morale and the structure of the people at Manitoba Hydro. Similar ideological madness can be seen in their gutting of the Northern Affairs Department when they were in office. Centralization of the few remaining staff located in Winnipeg proved one thing only, the Ministry was a Ministry in name only. All they had was an office.

There were no field workers at all. I recall a study of the situation at the time which said that "restraint is becoming a program of austerity with an effect of creating more dependence on government, as many of the cuts in programs which helped people to become self-reliant, have made these people more vulnerable." lt is one of the old shibboleths of these people who have no understanding of the lives of those who earn under $50,000, Mr. Speaker, and live in rural or Northern

Friday, 21 118rch, 1115 Manitoba, that traditional social services not essential services which, if cut, will not prolong or in crease dependence. These are the same people who called Churchill a luxury we cannot afford. These peple cut Native education by 20 percent in one year alone. At the same time, they wasted $1. 3 million on a political witch hunt of Hydro, and over $300,000 on their futile study of Autopac, and hundreds of thousands of dollars on auditors, consultants trying to prove their outdated ideology.

Of course, they always had money to fly their experts up North and practice the art of saying, sorry, we don't have any actual money to leave up here. Not surprisi ngly, Mr. Speaker, that government was the first and likely the last of this century to be defeated after only one term. This government recognizes the importance of a balanced and stable economy. lt is no accident that Mani toba has such a stable labour environment compared to the Cons ervative and ultra­ Conservative provinces such as British Columbia or Alberta.

Our reforms of the Workers Compensation Board and system is aother example of our putting people first. Every year, nearly 1,500 Canadians are killed on the job. Typically, the Leader of the Opposition, rather than showing concern for the dangerous working conditions that cause such suffering, complains about the high costs of compensation. Again, th eir fri ends, the employers are the ones that they are protectin g. We too are, of course, concerned about increasing costs. But our answer is not to gut the board and fudge statistics to suggest there are no dangerous jobs.

Rather, we fund health and safety educational programs and work with employers and employees to see that the hazards are decreased. Even in Conserative Ontario and Al berta. th ey have such program s, but the Cons ervatives in Manitoba are unaware of such basic twentieth century reforms. To the Conservatives here, the right to refuse dangerous work is communist ic.

The Workers Compensation Act has existed since 1917. lt is time the Cons ervative Party realized that it is not a perk of workers, but something which protects the employers from lawsuits, and if we did away with it, there would be nothing but lawsuits because people are much more aware of their rights these days than they were in the days gone by. Society pays greatly for occupational injuries and illnesses, Mr. Speaker.

The costs of medical services, lost taxes, in creased welfare payments, unemployment insurance benefits, lost productivity , and tragic waste of lives caused by injuries far exceed the costs paid in premiums by the employers. The members opposite see it as perfectly reasonable to bail out banks who gamble in real estate, but don't seem to think farmers should get reasonable interest rates. One of their allies, the new Member of Parliament for Selkirk, boasted recently that the 1,500 percent increase for user fees for farmers are necessary for cost recovery reasons. Mr.

Speaker, what an appalling concern that member has. Mr. Speaker, the attitude of the members opposite on the subject of social services are another example of the ni neteeth century thinking that occurs in the Conservative caucus. All Manitobans remember with great disgust the infamous characteri zation of the Member for Charleswood about women being good breeders. Similar sentiments on day care resulted in them stalling and waffling on day care centres when they were in office. By comparison, this government has increased the grants and subsidies to day care by $1. 9 million this year alone, Mr. Speaker.

The work force has changed greatly since World War I. Women now form almost half the work force compared to less than 5 percent of married women In those days. Day care is not a luxur y of the middle class, but essential for th e development of our society. Manitoba now provides the highest per capita support to day care of any province and our recent pr oposed national Day Care Act announced by the Member for Osborne, is widely recognized as an excellent model for the count ry. Grants to un iversities have increased by over one­ third since 198 1. Tuition fees in Manitoba are the third lowest in the country.

Last year, 1,000 students in British Columbia, who were accepted into B.C.'s universities, did not register. Why? Because they couldn't afford it. In the past month alone, the president of the Un iversity of British Columbia and a dean at Simon Fraser Un iversity quit in disgust at the cutbacks in funding there. Assuming a student had the lowest income and was therefore eligible for the highest student loans - since British Columbia Is the only province with all loan student aid - he or she would owe $22,000 by the time they graduated with a B.A. Is this what the Conservatives would like to have here in Manitoba?

While our government have increased student aid by 30 percent in 1983 and 1984 alone, the Conservatives talk of the need to cut spending. Mr. Speaker, you can't cut spending and at the same time give more. There has to be some logic, some rationale. Unfortu nately, the members over there want it both ways and they can't have it both ways. All that would be accomplished would be to cut the accessibility of higher education to average Manitoban young people and to reduce opportunities of Natives for an education.

While in Conservative Alberta, nearly half of the doctors extra-bill and over 800 recently were found to be extra-billing welfare patients. One doctor demanded $300 in advance before he would see a welfare patient. Is this what we want in Manitoba? 476 MR. J. DOWNEY: We just don't want the NDP, that's what Manitobans just don't want. MR. P. FOX: The Member says he doesn't want the NDP. Unfortun ately, the NDP are the only ones that are going to do any good to this province; the Conservatives just haven't got a chance of doing anything right.

In Al berta, the indi vidual pays $1 68 per year In health premiums and a family pays $336 per year. In British Columbia, they pay even more; while in Conservative Ontario, they pay $340 per year per ind ividual and $680 per year for a family for the premiums. All of those three areas have Conservative Governments. On top of that. they allow extra billing in their medicare system and half of the doctors are extra billing now.

I wonder where the Conservatives are on extra billing in those provinces, where are they on user fees; and of course, Alberta, we know, has been going for a $20 hospital fee as well, a deterrent fee and the people who are sick don't need deterrents, they want assistance, they

Friday, 29 March, 1985 want help. The real answer is that the Conservatives do not care. Other governments have mentioned measures to aid agriculture and foster a climate that encourages the development of new businesses and the construction of housing. The success of these measures is well known.

While the Federal Government, last November, thoughtlessly destroyed some 6,000 jobs in Manitoba and over $400 million in investment by the elimination of the Manufacturing Technology Institute here in Winnipeg, the research centre at Churchill and Gimli, and the Via Rail maintenance centre and others, we have continued to make significant progress in creating jobs. The CareerStart, Manitoba Jobs Fund, RentaiStart and the Community Assets Program, Main St reet Manitoba -my seatmate started -such programs show a government that understands and cares, Mr. Speaker.

While the Federal Government can put together over $200 million for a bank that gambled on American real estate and energy prices, but nothing for Canadian farmers except a 1500 percent increase in inspection prices and a task force on agriculture which said, "Farmers are Fat Cats." Can you imagine farmers being Fat Cats? Mr. Speaker, we believe that there is no way that farmers are Fat Cats. We must help them out to whatever extent we can and we certainly can't do it if we call them Fat Cats. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. P. FOX: They're eating into my time, Mr. Speaker.

The recent announ cements on General Electric generators for limestone, the lnfotech Centre here . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. P. FOX: . . . and many others point out the success of the Jobs Fund and the economic initiatives of this government. Business and Manitobans have confidence in the programs of this government. They know that this province has the lowest unemployment rate in the country consistently and they know why.

They also know that the twisting of statistics done by the members opposite shows desperately that their caucus is trying to find an issue, any issue to exploit and twist to their advantage. We never hear them talk of other provinces, not any more, only of how, with the creative use of statistics, they can prove that no one is working in Manitoba except for members of their caucus and members in the Federal Cabinet who have managed to get so many projects. In

summary, Mr. Speaker, the 19 85 Budget is an honest, fair Budget, that reflects the aspirations of ordinary Manitobans instead of the ideology of the previous government, where platitudes and slashing created social and economic chaos. I support this Budget that our Minister of Finance has proposed and I t hink it is a very good Budget. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to make a few comments relating directly to the Budget and the di rection that the New Democratic Party are taking the people of Manitoba, the direction the majority of Manitobans don't want to go. We've seen since their administration has been in office, the kind of careless spending, the kind of lack of proper priorities and the money that has been used for interest that we as a Conservative Party would not be spending it on. We are now in a position in this province, Mr.

Speaker: where it is the given where we have something like $400 million to $500 million of a structured debt each year and each Budget. What does that really mean, Mr. Speaker? Well, it means that the people of Manitoba, rather than being taxed for the incompetent spending of the New Democratic Party, which I would not agree with, but it is, in fact, putting our children and our grandchildren to be deeper and deeper in debt. let 's just look at it, Mr. Speaker. What has happened to Canada?

Canada has been a country of promise and a country of opportunity until we saw some 16 years of liberal lef1-wing government in Ottawa. What have we seen after four years in the Province of Manitoba under a lef1-wing, extremely lef1 wing - some of them are, in fact, noted communists and supporters of the PLO movement -that is the kind of government we've seen? What is happening to our finances in the province, Mr. Speaker? We have now come to a point where tlley put us in debt almost $2 billion. A carrying charge on our debt this year, Mr. Speaker, will be some projected $280 million. Mr.

Speaker, that is a tax on the people of Ma nitoba. lt's the hidden agenda of the New Democratic Party. If a $280 million Interest charge on our debt is not a tax, what is it, Mr. Speaker? What is it, Mr. Speaker? We have to pay it and then we have to pay the principal, Mr. Speaker. So, they can't go to the people of the Province of Manitoba and say that they aren't increasing the taxes, because they, in fact, are. lt should be pointed out as the Vie Schroeder hidden tax of $280 million on debt carrying charges. That, Mr.

Speaker, has to be paid by the people of Manitoba. let them stand up and deny that it isn't a tax and that doesn't have to be paid, because it does. After four years of this government, we have almost a $2 billion collective debt with a $280 million carrying charge. Mr. Speaker, they don't care, but we do care. We are, Mr. Speaker, going to be presenting that case to the people of Manitoba whenever this government screw up their courage and call an election. Where are the priorities of this government, where are the priorities of the government?

My colleague from Portage la Prairie pointed out the problems it was creating for his community with the closing down of the school at the Manitoba Development Centre. - (Interjection) - And the yip from Flin Flon, Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for Flin Flon says, do we want them to save money. Yes, Mr. Speaker, I want them to save money, but I'll tell them how to spend money. They can cancel their $4 million apple-polishing campaign publicity program, Mr.

Speaker, that's how they can save money and they can put it into the school at Portage la Prairie, so tha t it could help those disadv antaged people in society. Mr. Speaker, the people of Manitoba are fed up with the kind of doublespeak and the double talk and the

Friday , 21 March, 1915 smokescreens that this incompetent group of people are putting before the public. Mr. Speaker, let us look at one other particular area. This morning again it was disclosed by my colleague and my deskmate from Pembina, the supporting of the PLO, Mr. Speaker, in advertising a great arms day of the PLO. Look what the Minister of Education has been spreading throughout this province, Mr. Speaker. Look at the kind of pornographic pushing that we see coming from this government. At the same time, they say they'r e going to, Mr. Speaker, introduce legislation to restrict it.

My goodness, when are they going to start to set some moral examples that the people of Manitoba can get along with, Mr. Speaker? You know, in fact, Mr. Speaker, these people could accept and go along with anything and support anything that happens between two covers. That's right. They would support and agree with anything that would happen between two covers - (Interjection) - and they call it culture. That's right, my colleague from Morris says they call it culture. Mr. Speaker, what kind of immoral people do we have? Ye s, Mr. Speaker, this government are not what the people of Manitoba want.

These people are not what the people of Manitoba want. I again make . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. J. DOWNEY: I again make reference to their priorities. Their priorities, Mr. Speaker, are totally totally mixed up. Do you know their main objective right now? lt's not the people of Manitoba; it's not jobs for the people of Manitoba. Their priority right now, Mr. Speaker, is to spend money to improve their tarnished image to stay in office.

Their only one sole objective is the same that Pierre Elliot Trudeau and his Liberal Government had in Ottawa for years, was to stay in office. To heck with the people of Manitoba, to heck with the deficit, to heck with the debt that we have to pay for on a carrying charge of $280 million a year - a taxation that every body has to pay - they say to heck with that because we're going to get elected. That's all that matters. In fact, Mr. Speaker, and until we saw the kind of carrying on that the Member for Ste.

Rose and the Acting Minister of Agriculture carried on with this morning, I wasn't going to make reference to the absence of a Minister in the House. Mr. Speaker, I would like to see the Minister of Agriculture in the Assembly once in awhile so we could ask him about some of the agricultural activities, but when it was convenient for the Member for Ste. Rose and the Minister of Housing to play a little political game in front of the T.V. about a lowering of the initial grain prices, what happened? The question wasn't taken as notice, they had to make a great song about it.

I'll tell the Minister of Housing that he made a big mistake in his reply because he said we are going to let the Minister of Wheat Board know that we didn't like the reduction in wheat prices. No, we didn't let the cat out of the bag. I'm glad he did ask it, because if he hasn't already let the Minister know, then he's too late. Mr. Speaker, why did he not let the Federal Minister know weeks ago that we didn't 478 want a lowering of initial grain prices?

He hasn't even contacted the Federal Minister of Wheat Board yet. lt was an admission by the Minister of Housing this morning, an incompetent group of people trying to play politics, Mr. Speaker, with the farm community of this province. That's what they're trying to do, Mr. Speaker. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Labour laughs at the plight of the farm community. The Minister of Labour is laughing at the difficult times the farm community are having. That's how he cares about the farmers. He's laughing at the plight of farmers.

The Minister of Labour is laughing at the plight of the farmers. Mr. Speaker, a lot has been said by the . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Minister of Labour on a point of order. HON. A. MACKLING: The honourable member is alluding that I'm laughing at the plight of farmers. I'm laughing at the ludicrous conduct of the member waving his arms and making misstatements of fact. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I accept that point of information. The Honourable Mem ber for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A lot has been said, Mr.

Speaker , about the development of Ma nitob a Hydro by many of my colleagues and, of course, the selective read ing by the government as it relates to the development of Limestone and, of course , my colleague from Pemblna, I think, named the government very correctly last night when he referred to them as the "Limestone Cowboys". That, I think, fits very well. They're trying to ride that on to their next election victory and I think that the people of Manitoba are going to see through what their proposals are. They're going to take a pretty careful look at their record as has been again pointed out.

I want to say that last week, the Leader of our party made an excellent speech in pointing out some of the advantages that are being transferred over to the people who are buying Manitob a Hydro in this recent agreement that has been signed, and as people start to get that, they know that there is some thing about what is happening that they just can't put their finger on, but I'll tell you, as it becomes disclosed - as was again di sclosed by my colleague from Pem bina yesterday - on the kind of negotiation that was carried out, the fact that all the advantages are going to go to the people that are purchasing the power and we as Manitoba rate payers and taxpayers are going to be the people who are totally exposed on any of the costs and downsides to that agreement.

That, Mr. Speaker. will be pointed out and people will, of course, think back to the history of Manitoba Hydro.

Friday, 21 March, 1985 I have a brief way of putting it and I think it's important to put on the record. Growing up in Manitoba as a young person, I remember the D.L. Campbell years when they introduc ed rural electrification to Manitoba users, an excellent contribution. MR. W. McKENZIE: Service at cost. MR. J. DOWNEY: The lights came on, that's right.

The Member for Roblin-Russell said, "Service at cost." We had signs all over Manitoba saying, "Manitoba Hydro, it's Yours, Use lt." Yes, and we could afford to use it and it really changed the total lifestyle of the people of Manitoba, particularly the rural people who hadn't had water systems or hadn't had the electric light systems and all the convenienc es that go with it. So I take my hat off to D.L. Campbell and his government.

I take my hat off to Duff Roblin who had the foresight and the vision to develop the Nelson River projects, to put in place the kind of reasonable-priced energy, that we could be one of the most industri alized provinces in all of Canada, not only Western Canada. But we truly had, and he had the vision of providing us with the kind of electrical power that would make us a very very strong indus trial province, taking some of the responsibil ity, Mr. Speaker, off the backs of the farm taxpayers, the rural users, and those other people in society, a tremendous potential and benefit at a cost that we could afford.

Reasonable development, Mr. Speaker , and it was being developed under very com petent administr ation and very competent people working for Manitoba Hydro. Then we had, Mr. Speaker, the black days come in Manitoba. Yes, the lights went out, Mr. Speaker, when we saw the Schreyer Government, the NDP Government turn it into a political tool of their party. Mr. Speaker, we saw the New Democratic Party take ahold of the Manitoba Hydro and use it for their election purposes.

Well the people of Manitoba have been bitten once by a New Democratic Party on the Hydro Development and they're not going to be bitten again by them, Mr. Speaker, or sold short as this government is trying to do. If, Mr. Speaker, some of the development plans had carried forward with the use of hydro in Manitoba, we'd have seen thousands of jobs - no t temporary construction jobs for one, two, three of five years, or ten years - we'd see long-term permanent jobs. We are now seeing the New Democratic Party proposing to the people of Manitoba that we spend $3 billion. Do you now how much $3 billion is?

That is the amount of money that it takes to run this entire province for one year, Mr. Speaker, and we're putting that into one project to provide 40 long-term jobs? - $3 billion? Mr. Speaker, not only will our grandchildren be put in debt because of the actions and activities of this - (Interjection) - I'm not against the development of our hydro projects. In fact I'm one of the stronger supporters of it, Mr.

Speaker, but it has to be done under a proper management plan, proper decisions made, so that we aren't hung with the debt of it - we're hung with the benefits, the people of Manitoba, and under the New Democratic Party that's not happening, Mr. Speaker. We are being hung with the losses that are going to be incurred. The fact that it's being 479 advanced by two years for their political purposes is again being understood very clearly by the people of Manitoba. A MEMBER: Very clearly, Jim. MR. J. DOWNEY: Very clearly.

If they think their slick and polished advertising is going to fool the people that get monthly bills - that under the former New Democratic Party went up 150 percent in their term - froze under the 4'on adminis tration where it didn't go up at all - and now it's back going up again under this current administration, if you don't think that they're concerned, I'll tell you, they've got another thought coming because they kno w that it's simply and purely for the re-election of a New Democratic Party and they don't like it one little bit - the users of hydro and the taxpayers of Manitoba.

So let them fool themselves, Mr. Speaker, let them fool themselves. I'm prepared to go on any stage. I'm prepared to go in any place during the next few months, during an election campaign, to refute, Mr. Speaker, and to expose the mismanagement that this government has prepared and put forward, and what they're going to continue to do. A MEMBER: The sooner, the better. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, that's right -t he sooner, the better. I want to spend a little time on the Budget and what has been purported as being so great and helpful for the agricultural community. Mr.

Speaker, I want to make reference to the $20 million that has been highly touted by the Minister of Finance and the Agriculture Mini ster. In fact that must what he's doing these days - he's out trying to find somebody that qualifies for that $20 million loan program that - (I nterjection) - that's right, it's like looking for a needle in a haystack to find someone tha t might get some support through the MACC program. Let us look at a couple of figures, Mr.

Speaker, and I think it's important that this House and the farm community particularly understand lt - and I'm going to make a reference to some stats published by the Farm Credit Corporation - ind icate that in 1983 and 1984 that farm borrowers - and this is FCC numbers - farm borrowers - and it may or may not hold true for the MACC program, farm borrowers had an average value in total assets of $460,000 and an average debt of $24 0,000.00. Well, Mr. Speaker, that of course leaves us with a difference of some $220,000 in assets on those farms. Now I'm not sure, Mr.

Speaker, whether that holds true for Manitoba but that was the FCC clients. MACC - I wish the Minister would have laid some of this out in the report - but if the same holds true for Manitoba farmers, let me read, Mr . Sp eak er, one of th e qualifications that a farmer has to have before he qualifies for the program. He has to be a full-time farmer with a net worth under $1 85,000.00. Well if the average farmers that FCC have, Mr.

Speaker, as clients have a net worth of $220,000, the program in troduced by this Minister of Finance and the Min ister of Agriculture has to be under $18 5,000, then the average person

FrklaJ, 2111arc h, 1115 who needs support is not going to qualify. They're automatically struck from the support program that they made so much to do about. I think, Mr. Speaker, the farmers are going - (Interjec tion) - well, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance says, "Try to sell it." I'm not trying to sell it. All I'm saying is that I've got the figures from FCC - (Interjection) - Mr. Speaker, he says, "Help those that need it most," and he calls me a fool. I just pointed out to him where it isn't going to help those average people in society who need support, not going to help.

So all this $20 million that he talks about isn't going to be helping anybody, Mr. Speaker, because the first criteria elimina tes the average person who needs support. Let's go through some of the things and I want to spend a bit of time - (Interjec tion) - Mr. Speaker, I made reference, if the Minister of Finance would not take out of context what I said - I made refere nce to the fact that slats published by Farm Credit Corporation indicate 1983-84, that their farm borrowers had an average value in total assets of $460,000 and a debt of $240,000.00. That's not a good situation, Mr.

Speaker, that's not healthy - leaving assets of $220,000.00. - (Interjection) - No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying the borrowers at FCC. You're distorting what I'm saying. I said - the FCC report is what I said, okay? - (Interjection) - No, it does not. If you'd listen and pay attention to what I'm saying, Mr. Speaker, I will again say it. Statistics publis hed by the Farm Credit Corporation indicate in 1983-84 their farm borfowers had an average value in total assets of $460,000 and a debt of $240,000.00. That's not a good situation.

Farmers don't like to be in that kind of a debt situation with high interest rates, Mr. Speaker. So, Mr. Speaker, the assets that they have, they disallow them from the provincial program and I want the Minister of Finance not to doublespeak as he normally does. Mr. Speaker, so we have a restriction rate off of that. Le t's go through some of the other disqualifiers. Well there's nothing wrong with them being a resident of Manitoba, if he can afford to live here with the taxes that are being imposed by the Province of Manitoba. And yes, Mr.

Speaker, he comes forward with a gas tax on unleaded fuel and of course a lot of our colleagues have talked about the fact that who is he hitting? Those people that have to drive older cars and haven't got the converters on them to burn unleaded fuel. So he's hitting those people who have to use leaded gas. He's hitting those people who have to drive from rural Manitoba to centres where they get medical services in the Health Sciences Centre or the St. Boniface Hospital. He's hitting those people, of course, that can least afford it.

That's his kind of compassion that he shows - he's demonstra ting it in his taxation policies. Let us go through a few more disqualifiers because you'll never be qualified for a loan. He has to be a full­ time farmer with a net worth under $185,000 and yes, there are some that qualif y. I'm not saying that everybody is, but I'd like to know precisely how many there are. If you have demonstrated management ability, criteria used to make this assessment would include crop yields, livestock production comparable to area standards, reaso nable capital purchase and sensible use of credit.

Now I don't know who's going to make that deter mination. He's going to have to demon strate management ability. 480 A MEMBER: Is there something in there about his voting pattern? MR. J. DOWNEY: Wel l, that's the one line that was left out, but that's another hoop that he or she has to go through. He must be in financial difficulty. Well, Mr. Speaker, if that were the only one there, then all farmers in Manitoba would qualify under this administration, because most farmers are having financial difficulty because of the policies of this Minister of Agriculture and this government.

I'll allude to them and the dairy policies and the other policies that he's now respo nsible for too. He's putting them in financial difficulty. A potential client has to be in arrears on term debt or be unable to obtain operating credit.

A client's farming operation may not show viability at the time of application, but the operation should be viable after debt restructuring - well, it takes a while to decipher these hoops but there's another one that you'll have to go through - and he must develop a plan for recovery which the farm operation to service the refinanced loan, the loan disbursement, conditional on the applicant being able to obtain an adequate line of operating credit. I'm kind of confused when I hit that line, Mr. Speaker.

I'm confused because what the Minister of Agriculture is saying that the farmer who's in difficulty has to go through to get support - support of a 9.75 percent loan, that's really the bottom line. He says, ". . . the loan disbursement conditional on applicant being able to obtain an adequate line of operating credit." Well, if, Mr. Speaker, he meets the first criterion, then he won't meet the bottom one. He won't be able to get an adequate line of operating credit, so he doesn't qualify A MEMBER: Nobody qualifies. That's the bottom line. MR. J.

DOWNEY: That's the bottom line, is right, that he has set up a province . . . HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Garbage. MR. J. DOWNEY : The Minister of Housing says, garbage. I challenge this government to make sure that this loan program is in place in time for those people who are in dire straits and need to put their crops in this spring and there won't be one that qualifies. Mr. Speak er, have you ever gone through a government loan program? I know lots of people who have. When I started farming, I used a government loan program. Do you know how long it takes?

By the time you go and see the Manitoba Agriculture Credit Corporation loans officer, by the time he makes all the assessments and by the time he sends the application to head office and by the time it comes back, Mr. Speaker, I would bet that there may be - if anybody ever does qualify under this program - that it may be in fact ready for fall. They may have one loan approved for fall, and what are they doing? They're just fooling the farm community and out trying to get some political support. You're not fooling the farmers.

The farmer today that needs financial support is going to go to MACC and what are they going to say? Well, we have to have

Frldey. 2111arch , 1115 certain information, back-up material. Mr. Speaker, I said this two weeks ago and I'll say it again today, the farmers, particularly in the western region of the province where we've had a considerable amount of drought, where this Minister of Agriculture met some 300 that he was talking about, they will not get one nickel of support under this program. Ye s, Mr. Speaker, and if they get $100,000 from them at 9. 75 percent and need more, what does the rate go to? lt goes to this Minister of Agriculture's favourite rate - 13.5 or 13.625 percent. Yes , Mr.

Speaker, that's the kind of help that this Premier and this government want to give the farm community. So the effective rate, if you were to borrow $200,000 from MACC, if you ever got through the hoops and got it, you'd have an effective rate of about 12 percent, when you take the 9.75 and 13.5, you'd be in that 12 to 12-something percent. That's the kind of support you would be provided with. HON. V. SCHROEDER: That very same study - 61 percent, at a net worth of $166,000 or less. MR. J. DOWNEY: That's fine. Why hasn't he brought that information forward, Mr. Speaker . I'd like information.

I have put information on the record; he could have put it on but he didn't. He wanted to play politics. I still challenge the Minis ter of Finance to make sure that those people who are in dire need get through the hoops ... HON. V. SCHROEDER: You quoted selectively from that study. MR. J. DOWNEY: . . . of their MACC program to get support for this spring. They won't do it, Mr.

Speaker, and it's unfortunate, because the worst thing you can do with people who are grasping at straws and trying to stay alive in any busine ss is to give them false hope; and this government has again given false hope to the farm commu nity. They've given the community false hope that there would be support coming after this Budget that we've just seen introduced. Let's look at another figure. They make a big to-do about their support programs. They take a lot of pride in their support programs. They brag on one page of the Budget that there's $35 million gone into a Beef Stabilization Program. Mr.

Speaker, there was money needed for the beef industry and, yes, there should have been a little different way of providing it, but I will say that they made money available and they did it in a wrong manner. But look at Page B 19. The program was to support the beef industry and to maintain num bers and to keep numbers for kill in the province. They didn't support the feed lot industry. Page B 19 says we've got a small decline in our beef production. We 've had more than a small reduction in our beef Industry, Mr. Speaker.

We 've had a substantial reduction in our beef herds in this province and we are still losing beef numbers. it points out that all the rhetoric and all the talk we hear about them pumping money in has really not met the objectives of the farm community and the kind of support that was needed to maintain a packing house industry. lt is not there, Mr. Speaker. I want to continue with some of the agricultural concerns, and I'll make reference to the fact that we 481 attempted to get an emergency debate yesterday on the imposition of tariffs by the U.S.

Com merce Department in the restriction of our hog flow to the United States. Mr. Speaker , we wanted to debate it in emergency sess ion, and I'll lay on the record today what I think could have been done and should have been done. The Minister of Agriculture, if he'd been doing anything, the least he could have done was Inform his Premier of what may happen. But what happens? The Firsf Minister of the Province met with the Federal Minister - and I'll give him the benefit, he indicated that he talked to him about it - but he didn't make any recommendations, as I understand it, to the Minister of Agriculture.

If he talked to him about it, you'd think his Minister of Agriculture would have laid out what may happen. In fact, on the 18th of March, I warned them that this would come about; I told them this would take place. But did we see any communication go from this Assembly? Did we see any communication go to the people in the United States who were thinking of imposing an embargo or a tariff? No, Mr. Speaker. They didn't take any action to support Manitoba's hog export people, the 3,300 hog producers. So what happened because of that?

We 're seeing a tremendous amount of money lost by the producers of pork in this province in a matter of days because we didn't have the kind of support from the Minister of Agriculture and the Premier when it came to asking the Americans and asking the Federal Government not to have this kind of tariff imposed. So it's cost the province millions of dollars. The bigger question again, Mr. Speaker, comes into the budgetary matters and that is, what is it going to cost the provincial taxpayers on hog stabilization, because when the hog prices go down, it will in fact force a payout in the hog stabilization.

I know that as of last December, the hog stabilization had very little money left in it. lt was very close to being in financial difficulty. At some period there was a shortfall of funds. We now will see the province have to put more money in and I'd like to know how much it's going to be. I see there's $7 million for stabilization and I'm not sure how much will go to the hog stabilization. There's $5 million into the beef stabilization, but I'd like the Minister of Agriculture to be here sometime to tell us where he's going to get this mone y, how much it's going to cost. Is there enough in the Budget?

We're going to have to vote on this. Is there going to be enough in the Budget to support the Hog Stabilization Program? We are losing millions of dollars. This Minister of Agricultur e has been very very quiet and very irresponsible in protecting the hog producers of this province and speaking out in their behalf, as has the Premier been. Let's talk about an even more contentious issue right now, not maybe Involving as many producers, but Jet's talk about the dairy industry for a few minutes. Let's talk about what's happened recently in the dairy industry.

You know, we had a dairy industry when we were in office that were anxious to see some changes made. They were anxious, Mr. Speaker, not to have to go to a consumer-orienta ted milk marketing board to get a price increase every year, that they had to go cap in hand to the consumer publicly regulated body that was supported by the New Democratic Party, that

Friday, 29 Mlirch, 1985 they had to make a big public issue out of a milk price increase. They didn't like that, Mr. Speaker, and I as their Minister didn't like it, and we made some policy changes. In fact, with the support of my colleagues, pressure from the Member for Emerson who had a lot of the dairy industry in his constituen cy, we made some changes and replaced the old Milk Control Board with the Milk Prices Review Commission, which, in fact, sets the milk price by formula. lt doesn't have that annual public outcry that milk prices may be going up. lt worked fairly well, Mr. Speaker.

Ye s, it worked fairly well in the interests of the producers. lt worked very well for the consumers and we had an industry that was relatively healthy. We, as well, had the ability to transfer quota. The Milk Marketing Board took 20 percent of the quota on a sale of cows and quota between farmers, giving some flexi bility to the system. This Minister of Agriculture in the last three weeks has allowed the Manitoba Natural Products Marketing Council to restrict all sales of cows in quota between dairy farmers. That's what you call listening to the people.

That's what you call working with the people, and that's supporting the farm commu nity. Mr. Speake r, - (Interje ction) - that's right, that's maybe what they call it, but it isn't what we call it and it isn't what the dairy farmers call it. lt's dictation, Mr. Speaker, of the worst kind by a socialist Premier and a socialist gove rnment. They don't know how tl)e farm community want to operate and they won't even, Mr.

Speaker, call the agricultural committee to allow the farm commun ity, the dairy industry to come forward and put their policy positions on the record to tell the members of the Legislature how they want the indu stry to go. They won't even do that, Mr. Speaker. Why won't they do it? Because does he have all the answers for the dairy industry? If he has, they're the wrong ones because I'll bet you there isn't a dairy farmer in Manitoba today that wouldn't like to take their Minister of Agriculture or their Premier out to the dairy barn, Mr. Speaker, and give him an old fashioned lesson. That's right, Mr.

Speaker, and it wouldn't be how to milk a cow. Mr. Speake r, I believe that it is imperative - and I want this to be very clear on the record - that this Premier screw up his courage and instruct his Minister of Agriculture to call the agricultural comm ittee so the dairy industry, the dairy farmers can come forward and tell them what they would like to see for dairy policy. What have they got in place of that, Mr. Speaker? They've got a Minister of Agriculture standing up and saying there'll be no value to quota. We'll say there's no value to quota. Well, Mr.

Speak er, in reality, there always has been a value to quota. What good is a dairy cow if you haven 't got the right to produce dairy milk from her and sell to somebody . lt isn't worth anything. So, that's been working relatively well. Other provinces seem to be able to get by this impasse. Ontario, a lot of dairy producers have written me and have been saying goodness they work it out in other regions, why can't we have the same kind of concept, or at least consider it in Manitoba? This Minister of Agriculture is not listening to the dairy farmers of Manitoba.

I think it's imperative that they call a comm ittee so we can deal with it and can go forward with the proper kind of recommendations that 482 are acceptable to the governing bodies but is also to those people who are involved, the dairy producers. I've had many dairy people talk to me and say, this government have just knocked my value in half or two­ thirds because of what they've done to my dairy herd. If you want to change dairy quotas today, you have to sell your total herd. Everybody doesn't want to sell out their dairy farm. Some people don't mind continuing dairying, Mr. Speaker, and thank goodness.

They're the most hard-working people going. We should take our hats off and we should work with them. Not this Premier , not this Minister of Agriculture; he's got every one of them angry at him. I challenge him to change the kind of regulations that have just been passed by the Natural Products Marketing Council. I challenge him to do it, Mr. Speaker, if he's really sincere in his help for the farm community as he goes around the farm community with his hands wringing and his head cocked as if he's really listening. I say, Mr. Speaker, he'd better get at it.

I want to make a little bit more of a comment about · some of the agricultural concerns. Of course, we have seen and I will table for the information of the House, recent regulations that have been passed and forms passed by the Manitoba Egg Producers Marketing Board. Of course, we have a Premier that stood up in the House and said no, there weren't regulations passed . I asked the members of the government , I asked the Member for Ste.

Rose, I asked the Members for the City of Winnipeg if this is the kind of regulations they want seen passed throughout rural Manitoba to the farmers, the kind of restict ions that are placed on them. I asked them, I challenged them. Again, it would be a good opportunity, rather than have the Minister of Agriculture back running around his own constituency when he should be in the House trying to save his political butt, Mr. Speaker, he'd better back in here dealing with the bigger agricultural quest ion. I want to table these regulations that have been passed out by the Manitoba Egg Producers Marketing Board.

I think they should be given the opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to come before the agriculture committee and point out their case as to why these kinds of regulat ions have to be passed. That's what we're asking for, Mr. Speaker. We're asking for the government to be open as they pledged they would be open in their campaign. They're not very open, Mr. Speaker, when the agriculture community can't come before the committee to explain their case. The egg producers, Mr. Speaker, can't come before the comm ittee unle ss it's called to explain their case.

The dairy farmers are being stopped from coming before the comm ittee to explain their case. The hog producers could come before the comm ittee to explain their case. The people need ing financial support, Mr. Speaker, unde r MACC who are never going to be able to go through the hoops that have been set up by this Minister of Agriculture and his government will never be able to speak to the agricultural committee unle ss it's called. That's the kind of thing, Mr. Speaker, we could do with a comm ittee of this House at this point. We could listen to the farmers. We could develop some policies. Mr.

Speaker, this Minister of Agriculture and this Premier are bankrupt of ideas. We, the agriculture community in Manitoba are shrinking and going broke

Friday, 21 M8rch, 1915 under their administration, under their policies, and under their direction, Mr. Speaker, and I challenge them to call the comm ittee so that we can hear from the farm commu nity. - (Interjection) - Ye s, I do. lt would be very simple for him to dir ect his Min ister of Agriculture to call a committee so the dairy farmers and those people can come forward. What are you scared of? That you're wrong? Are you scared that you're wrong? Mr. Speaker, they couldn't bash the Federal Govern ment. They couldn't stand up and do some selective questioning in the House bashing the Federal Gove rnment.

They may be able to, Mr. Speaker, try to fool some people but they can't fool enough to get elected next time. The people of Manitoba are fed up. They're fed up with the kind of political posturing, the waste of money, the kind of priority they place on the money where they'd spend $4 million in advert ising and cut the Manitoba School at Portage by half-a-million dollars. That's the kind of priorities we see, the kind of smut peddling we see go by the Minister of Culture, Mr. Speaker. The kind of support they're giving to the PL O, the advert ising in the magazine that was pointed out today. Ye s, Mr.

Speaker, that's the kind of thing that will kill them. They will remember all those things, Mr. Speaker, that they have stood for and the fact that they haven 't stood up to protect the people of Manitoba, spend their money in a wise way and don't forget - I'll conclude with this - that there is another $280 million tax on the people of Manitoba. That's the debt carrying charge that this govern ment, in their term of office, have placed on the people of Manitoba. If it's not paid this year, it will have to paid the year after or the year after.

If they don't start dealing with the capital and the deficit, within five years, Mr. Speaker, we will have a $4 billion deficit and almost three-quarters-of-a- billion dollars debt carrying charge. That's the kind of future the people of Manitoba have to look forward to under a New Democratic Party. We, Mr. Speaker, will pledge to the people of Manitoba that we will straighten out the economic affairs of Manitoba. We 'll repriorize how their money is spent and Manitoba will prosper again under a Progressive Conservative Party. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, first I would like to express appreciation at having been given the opportunity to speak at this particular time today. Unfortunately on Monday I will not be present during the vote because of the commencement of the Conference of Ministers dealing with Aboriginal Rights and will not be able to be present for the debate or have an opportunity to speak on Monday, as I would normally have intended to do in respect to the Budget Debate. Mr.

Speaker, I think we can all join together, all members of common sense in this Chamber, and I assume that's all mem bers in this Ho use, in commanding the Minister of Finance for what indeed has been a well-crafted document, a well-crafted budgetary document that we can indeed be justly proud of. 483 Mr. Speaker, before I proceed , I would like to just put on the record for the Honourable Member for Arthur - and I don't intend to deal with this at great length today - but I think at some point the Member for Arthur should explain his position in regard to milk quotas - to remove any inconsistencies on his

part in regard to previous positions taken by the Member for Arthur when he was the Minister of Agriculture in the Province of Manitoba and represented the dairy farmers in this province. Mr. Speaker, I would refer indeed to the Council Minutes of April 20, 1978, when the secretary to the committee wrote and I quote: "The Minister" - and the Minister, again I remind honourable members was the Member for Arthur, the present member that we listened to with all the bombast that the Mem ber for Arthur can generate and he's pretty good at generating bombast verbosity in this Chamber.

But the Minutes state and I would like to put these Minutes on the record, Mr. Speaker, because I think it's important the record be clear and the Member for Arthur have an opportunity some time to respond and to explain his own position. When he wants to talk about honourable mem bers on this side not doing their job, I think it important that we test the commitment on the part of the Member for Arthur, insofar as those dairy farmers that he speaks about with great righteousness this morning in this Chamber.

The Minute reads: "The Minister" - again the Member for Arthur - "advised his secretary that the policy had not changed with respect to pre venting the capitalization of quotas in Manitoba. However the Minister felt that modification could be made to existing quota reg ulations policy that would elimina te the cost of appraisals and still prevent quota capitalization from occurring. "The Minister indicated that if evidence was obtained, that a person had purchase quota, then the quota so obtained should be cancelled ." I repeat the Minutes, Mr.

Speaker, April 20, 1978, "The Minister indicated . . . that a person had purchase quota, then the quota so obtained should be cancelled ." So, Mr. Speaker, I indeed leave that on record for the Member for Arthur to take the opportunity to explain to this Chamber at some point the inconsistencies with the position expressed today and the position that he expressed when he was Minister of Agriculture. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Arthur on a point of order. MR. J. DOWNEY: Ye s, Mr. Speaker. I would ask the First Minister if he would table that document that he read from. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I will table a copy of the Minutes that were recorded in the Natural Products Minutes from the date of April 20, 1978. I will make that commitment to this Chamber. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur on a point of order? MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker , the rules of this Assembly are that a document read from should be tabled. I make specific refere nce - I asked the First

Friday, 29 March, 1985 Minister to table the document that he read from. I can go back in many precedents, Mr. Speaker, when I was Minister, if I read from a document, they insisted that I table it. That has been, Mr. Spea ker, a standard rule, and I request that the First Minister table the document that he read from. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader to the same point. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker, to the same point of order. The Minutes of the Natural Products Marketing Council are public information. They are not concealed.

The quotation used by the First Minister was a quotation from those Minutes. He was quoting from another document. That quotation was contained in another document that the First Minister has indicated he will table, the Natural Products Marketing Council Minutes from which that document quotes, no intention of tabling the document which he read from because it was only a quotation of those Minutes. That is a public document, Sir, and in providing that information, he meets the requirements under the rules. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina to the same point. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, my colleague, the Member for Arthur , has legiti mately requested, in compliance with a longstanding tradition of this House, that when a member quotes directly from a document, tha t document can be requested for tabling. A longstanding tradition of this House is that it is tabled today, as quoted from, not some other fudge d up sort of a tabling of documents. The First Minister quoted directly from a document this morning that my member, the Member for Arthur, has requested tabling of and it should be tabled.

Unle ss the First Min ister has something that he wishes to hide from the people of Manitoba, he will table the document he quoted from. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose on the same point. MR. A. ADAM: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I recall very vividly when I was sitting next to where the Acting Agriculture Minister -when the Member for Arthur was sitting in the second chair in the second row and I was on the opposite side of the House.

The Min ister had approximately 4,000 copies that he read from on his desk and I asked him to table those documents and he refused and today he gets up and says that he recalls very well that he tabled when he had to, Mr. Speaker, and you remember that very wel l. You remember very well what I'm talking about. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Morris to the same point MR. C. MANNESS: To the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Government House Leader has erred again as usuaL Mr.

Speaker, I was a former chairman of the National Products Marketing Council and I can 484 tell you that it is not a public record by convention in fact, the Minutes of that particular body was not public. Specific requests to peruse those particular Minutes always had to be decided by the board in question, so they were not part of the public records. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Government House Leader to the same point. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes. Mr. Speaker, the Minutes . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. A.

ANSTETT: . . . of the Natural Products Marketing Council, contrary to the information provided to this House by the Member for Morris, have always been made public on request, and have, at many times in the last 12 years, been tabled in complete sets, a year at a time in this Cham ber. Mr. Speaker, however, I would refer you to Page . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Sir, I would refer you to Page 11 5 of Beauchesne's Fifth Edition, Citation 327(3) and (4).

Clause (3) reads, Sir: A public document referred to but not cited or quoted by a Minister need not be tabled, but more importantly, Sir:

(4) Only the document cited need be tabled by a Minister. A complete file need not be tabled because one document in it has been cited. The Premier has made a commitment to table the document, which has already been made public, Mr. Speaker, and that is the Minutes of the meeting to which the member referred and no statement by other members on his side will conceal the fact that those Minutes have been made public, prior to this date, in fact were made public some years ago, Sir. The Premier has referred to that document. lt may even well have been tabled in this House before. The fact, Mr.

Speaker, that the Member for Arthur has been hoisted on his own petard should not lead to flimflammery with our rules. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden to the same point MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speai<.er. the flimflammery that is being thrown arou nd this Cham ber, I sug gest comes from the Honourable Government House Leader. Mr. Speaker, it is, I think, indeed important and it has been a long-standing tradition that when a request is made from a person who is reading a document that that person table what it is he is reading from.

We have had numerous discussions in this Chamber before and there have been numerous debates, but it has always been accepted by this Chamber, Mr. Speaker, that it should be tabled.

Now, if we're going to have special rules in this Chamber to apply to the Premier of the province, I think they should be written into the rules. So far, they are not written into the rules and I suggest that he abide by the rules of the Chamber the same as anyone else. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina to the same point. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr . Speaker , to the same point of order. The Government Services . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. D. ORCHARD: . . .

Min ister mentioned a very important word in which he said, "conceal." Unless the First Min ister tables the document from which he read just five minutes ago in this House, then it leaves nothing for us to decide but the Premier is trying to conceal something from the people of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, it has been a long-st anding rule of this House that when a speaker in debate quo tes directly from a document that that document, when requested to be tabled, has 1o be tabled. That is a long-standing tradition of this House.

Are we now, Sir, about to make new rules for the Premier when he is wanting to conceal something in a document from which he has just quoted dir ectly and refuses to table that document today when he has just quoted from it? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please! No member has quoted from our rule book which rule it is we are alleging to be in breach of.

I would remind members that we have a Rule 29. 1 which says, "Wh ere in debate a member quotes from a private letter, any other member may require the member who quoted from the letter to table the letter from which he quoted but this rule does not alter any rule or practice of the House relating to the tabling of documents other than private letters." lt would appear from the remarks that have been made that it was not a letter which was being quoted from. lt is also a practice of the House that it is not necessary to table any public document.

I'm not sure whether the particular Minutes involved are a public document, but it's been made clear that it will be made public on request. If that is what the members want, I suppose that can be done. The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEV: Mr. Speaker, I understand the honourable members' concern. I will make sure that Minute is tabled in this House so that all mem bers can read very clearly, and I'll ensure it's certified as a true Minute, so all members can see the position of the former Minister of Agriculture in this province.

The copy of the Minute will be certified as a true copy of the Minu tes of 1978. Honour able members will not deflect from the essence of that Minute. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEV: Mr. Speaker, our Budget reflects the convictions of this government. lt indeed reflects convictions of this Budget that embrace com passion and humanity and those are the major tenets of this Budget. I believe, Mr.

Speaker , that economic development ought to be a stimulation, but not an end in itself; a belief that indeed that a document such as a Budget and a budgetary process ought to be measures in order to assist in the needs and the development of social programs in order to help people. That is the basic thrust of the Budget by the Minister of Finance, and I stand proudly in this place, and I know Manitobans are proud of this document that reflects the needs of the people of the Province of Manitoba. 485 Manitobans are optimistic people.

They are not daunted and they will not be daunted by the bellyachers and the soreheads that. indeed reflect the thinking so often in this Chamber, Mr. Speaker. No, Mr. Speaker, Manitobans are proud people. They are people that have courage and that courage, Mr. Speaker, gives them the strength to have dreams; dreams about the future of the Province of Manitoba and the courage to pursue those dreams to fruition. lt is those dreams, it Is those aspirations that are reflected in this government's Budget. My government is working to make those dreams a reality.

We are building upon those dreams because we believe that Manitobans believe in their abilities, in their potential, and in their talents. We share with Manitobans their aspirations, their confidence in the future of the Province of Manitoba, and that indeed is what this Budget mirrors. I'm sorry to say, Mr. Speaker, and I regret that the members opposite do not appear to share the enthusiasm of Manltobans, the aspirations of the ordin ary men and women in Manitoba for the future of this province. No, Mr. Speaker, the members opposite are prepared to pillage these dreams.

They would do nothing, but indeed their only concern is to generate cynicism, to create doubts and fears, fears in their own ideas, fears in the abilities of Manitobans. They would rather tear down what has been built by Manitobans in order to fulfil! their particular obsession to an outdated theory of economics and government that would better suit the thinking of 19th Century Manitoba rather than 20th Century Manitoba.

That kind of thinking - and let me put that dir ectly on the table for the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek that is so worked up this afternoon that he can't cease his muttering from his desk - it was that kind of thinking that believes that those born into wealth should survive, while those that are less fortunate in

Friday, 29 March, 1985 our society that were born into economic . . . should have to fight for themselves. That is the ideology of honour able members across the way. lt's an outdated and outmoded economic theory that doesn't reflect the Manitoba of 1985. Mr. Speaker, my government is not prepared to slash health, not prepared to slash education programs and to slash project funding. We will not butcher programs.

We will protect th e health and the well-being of Manitobans, because we care about Manitoba senior citizens, about their fears, about the decline in health that might affect their ability to remain as independent members of the Manitoba community; because we care about single parents whose childr en need decent, affordable, high-quality child care so that those parents may work and may contribute to society as protected members of society; because we care about those families, Mr.

Speaker, who are living in night mares because of abusive home setting; because we care about the economic inequities that exist that particularly confront the women in Manitoba; because we care about the Northerner who daily demonstrates that pioneer spirit of being prepared to achieve success in a vital and creative Northern Manitoba; because we care about the Manitoba Native communities who want to maintain their cultural identities and have the same need for services in order to ensure that their lives be a little easier. Mr.

Speaker, this is a government that cares; it is a government that will continue to defend the social measures from pressures exerted by tight economic times. Defence of those programs also maintains the preserving of jobs, vital, meaningful work within the Manitoba community.

However, my government is faced by an economic climate that has forced on us the need to move slower than we would like in expanding social programs, but unlike other governments to the east and to the west of us, we have not loaded the cost or the burden of th ose programs on the ind ivid ual members of society through inequitable user fees as has occurred elsewhere, implemented by Tory Governments elsewhere in this countr y.

My government believes tha t it is society 's co­ operative responsibility to assure that all members of our provi nce deserve to have access to quality health care, education and to other social programs, because Manitobans are worth that confidence. Despite what honou rable members opposite might like to say, social programs cont ribute a great deal to the economic well­ being of Manitoba.

They are not just an economic drain, as members to the west of us would say or as the former Tory regime in this province believed and demonstrated, by way of their slashing actions from the period 1977 to 198 1, when ordinary people are consumed by worry, by fear, by sorrow and grief, that the sick cannot afford affordable care as they must in some parts of Canada or that their childr en cannot receive affordable education, then they are stymied in their abilities to contribute to their communiti es and to the future. Manitobans understand that our province is faced with tight economic times.

They understand that spending must be prudent. Manitobans know - and their views, th eir id eas are fashioned with that knowledge. Mr. Speaker, my Minister of Finance spoke with hundr eds of Manitobans. He spoke about the 486 di fficult choices confr onting Manitob ans. My government listened to those Manitobans and what we heard is the collective wisdom, the wisdom of hundr eds of Manitobans that participated in the process that resulted in the presentation of this Budget to this Chamber.

Manitobans shared with us their aspirations, their hopes, their fears and they told us as well of their worries and shared them with us. Manltobans told us that education and health care and other services must be preserved and maintained. They told us that funding for the community projects that enhance their lives must be maintained and, Mr. Speaker, we did just that. We did just tha t because we un derstand, when Manitobans tell us, that to do otherwise would be unfair and unreasonable.

We understand Manitobans when they tell us that to do otherwise would have placed the burden of such slashing on the backs of ordina ry Man itobans. Mr. Speaker, I've yet to hear the members opposite really address the questions of fairness, of equity and of decency in relationship, Manitoban to Manitoban. I have yet to hear them address the question of taxation in this House, unfair taxation that exists which permits the affluent of our society to use loopholes, loopholes so they can duck their payment of a fair share of the costs of programs.

Instead of simply looking at ways to cut and cut some more expenditures on needed programs, perhaps the members opposite should be looking at ways to generate more revenues. Just recently it was noted in a report that in 1982 one in every hundr ed Canadians earning more than $30,000 paid no income tax; and for 1984 the Federal Government reduced its projected yield from taxes by 5 percent across the countr y. What this means for Manitoba is a revenue shortfall of some $35 million.

Ordinary men and women of this province are paying more than their fair share of the bills, while those with greater ability to contribute to the overall financial health of our country are not paying a cent. Surely, Mr. Speak er, the members opposite are able to remove their blinkers for a moment and recognize the need for a thorough review of the income tax system in Canada. Surely they can see what ordinary men and women of Manitoba have known for some time, that the income tax is unfair and unjust and needs to be fixed now. I am sure, Mr.

Speak er, and my colleagues would welcome, an expression of concern about the tax equity from the members opposite. And I ask them to join with us in pressing their friends in Ottawa to review the tax system in our country so that it be fair and just to all. And I believe, Mr. Sp eaker, that Manitobans would welcome such action on the part of members opposite. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, Manitobans like to know where the Leader of the Opposition stands and where his colleagues stand on this issue. We're waiting for a response as to where honourable members opposite stand on this issue.

The silence is deafening on that side and I have to assume, as do Manitobans, that their silence can only demonstrate one aspect - that members opposite do not care that ordinary men and women are paying more than their fair share in income tax. Mr. Speaker, I can only conclude that ·h onourable members across the way have adopted the old adage that silence is golden, as their guiding light.

In the past, Mr. Speaker, I have noted that the Leader of the Opposition appears to be the Invisible Man. I have thought about that, Mr. Speaker, trying to puzzle out why the Leader of the Opposition would want to be the Invisible Man rather than to be recognized by Manitobans. Mr. Speaker, I think I know why the Leader of the Opposition would prefer to remain invisible to Manitobans. He prefers that invisibility, Mr. Speaker, because he has a hidden agenda, and so, the Leader of the Opposition toured this province to raise his profile. To speak with ordinary Manitobans, he would find himself in a bind, Mr.

Speaker, because Manitobans would want to know where he and his party colleagues stand on the issues facing Manitoba today. His hidden agenda would certainly be dragged out of him and his colleagues, and the Leader of the Opposition knows, Mr. Sp eaker, that if he told Manitobans what his hidden agenda entails, the ordinary men and women of our province would not give him or his party a second look. But, Mr. Speaker . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I believe the hidden agenda of the members opposite reads like a page out of the economic textbook of British Columbia and of the Fraser Institute, a script, Mr. Speaker, that was originally authored by the Conservative Government in this province in their last term in office, a cure for economic woes that created more sickness, more injury, more harm to ordinary Manitobans. And that is what the Leader of the Opposition is afraid of.

That is why he is desperately clinging to his invisibility. lt is a hidden agenda, the consequences which would see Manitobans line up for assistance from welfare, rather than being able to work productively to put food on their table!l. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek on a point of order. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I clearly heard the First Minister make an accusation that the previous government -which I was part of on Treasury Board and a Minister -created sickness in this province. Mr.

Speaker, I would have the Minister withdraw the fact that we created sickness. - (Interjection) - Well let's find out. Either withdraw it or explain it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm glad to answer. Unnecessary unemployment created during a time indeed when Canada was doing well overall in the economic front; unemployment that gave rise to unnecessary disease; gave rise to unnecessary alcoholism, because of the neglect by the former government to undertake its proper res