/· Volume XL Friday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Fourth Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard} Speaker: Honourable P.]. McNicholas .. ,"''!'; r~, !;· ...... \ .... t'-' ~?~:t; 1:.;~ .. ·/~·~\L.-~._:· ... \i Number 58 17 June 1988

The House met at 2:00 p.m . MR . SPEAKER (McN i chol ~s ) : Order, please ! Before calling for Statement s by Minister s, there is a matter · I IJJoul.d l. i.k e to dGEil. wl th . I am now prepared to J~uJ e on the point of p r· :i. 1Ji. 1 E:1 g e r a .i. s (~ d by i·: he h o n . t h t=! Minister of Intergovernmental Af fairs . At thE! outsEd :. lei: me say that: I havr:1 no rr: 1ason tJ.JhateVE!r to beli.eVE:1 lhctl the-) hon . l.:l·w rni.ni.sLc:!r' did at1ything improper, but that is nol: an ansLJ.Jer to the q1Jestion oF whr:1ther or not the han. the minister's privileges were violated.

The definition of privilege I like be st"" is that of W. F. Dawson, 11 Parliamentary Privilege in the House oF Commons 11 (in Canada), and it i.s as follows: "Some are personal to every member of the Housr:~ and enable him to caJ~ry ouL his parliamentary responsibilities without interference; others are the additional privileges of the H o u s e a s a bod y , b r c-?. a c h of lAI hi. c h is considered in law to be analogous Lo contempt of court.

The comment in quest.i.on lAJa s made:! by the han. the member for Fogo on June 2 whc :!n he sa i.d thE! min i.s ler· "had used funds improperly ." The dict.lonary meaning oF the word irnpr·oper or improperly is "wrong, i.naccur·ate, unsec c~rnly, ·i.ndeC(:HlL. 11 That is the Oxford Illustrated Dictionary. The tJJord used -i.n <:ln ordinary context is thE!refore not particulary offensive. In the political context it could take on a rather different or sinister meaning.

Had the hon .. the member for Fogo not stated on June 9 that he was not alleging that the hon. minister had been "stealing from the pub 1 i c pur s e 11 , I wo u 1 d bE! inclined to view Lhe allegation L31 so June 17, 1988 VoJ. XL more seriously . co rnm e n t i. s on June 9 Hansard. The hon. rnembE!r' s page R2804 of the However, given this clarification I a 111 sa i'. J sf i.e d 1: h ct t L h c;! h on . the member for Fogo was not making such r:Hl i'.tll t~ gati .on and that it cannot be construed as such.

I f Lnd there :i.s no pr ·i.rna fac LE! caSE! . fl e f o 1" e c r.d . l. i. n 9 f o r S 1·: a "l:. ~~ nH:! n t s b y Ministers , I would Jike to welcome to th(~ gaJ.J.er i.es forty-thr·ee Grade V st ud ent s with tl4JO chaperons and tw o teachers, Eileen Murcell and ~liz a beth Green fro m Paradise Elem entary, Paradise . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! Statements by Ministers MR. TOBIN : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The bon . Lhe Minis t:er of Soc:.i.aJ. Services . MR . TOBIN : Mr. Speaker·, I tJJould like to inform the han .

House that bE!tWE!en Junr ,1 l i'lnd June I.S oF th .ls yc->.ar· my department hcts approved an add".i.U .ol'lcll thirty-on e community development projects for the Provj_nCE:~. For this per·iod oF timE! tl'w total funding allocated was $718,113, creati.ng employment for· 243 social assistance recipients in Newfoundland and Labrador. To da te this fiscal yea r, the Depar tment of Soci al Services Em plo yment has created thr oug h the Opportuni ties Div isi on nearl y 5, 000 jobs the exact No. sa R31SO

f J g 1.1 r e , M r . ~3 p E:~ a k (:~ r , would be 4, 950 - directly as a result of $17,132,000 of provincial funding. Mr. Speaker, I must again re-emphasize the success this program has enjoyed since its initiation by this government. The feedback received by the department from the many individuals and groups involved has been tremendous. The projects pr·ovide assistance to the gener·al public at large from community councils, to senior· citiZE!nS, to the handicapped individuals in our society. Mr.

Speaker, this government has E!ndeavored to enrich l:he lives of the less fortunatE! in our· Province R n d l wo ul. d l. i. k e t-. o ad v i. s e Uw hon. House today that we have co mm i. U: e d our· s e 1 lJ e s to p r· o v i cl .i. n g a further advanced and improved program i.n the department and I ATII sincere when I say, that like other di.tJisi.ons I.IJiHri.n thE:~ Sor: .LC\1 Services Department, employment opporlunll::i.es i.s onE! of l::he best programs in Canada today. MR. EFFORD: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon . the member for Port de Graue. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr.

Speaker, no wonder the Minister oF Social. Sc-:!rvi.ces IAJould find that statement difficult to read. No mi.ni.ster of this government should stand up and be proud of the fact t.hRt ho has to create 5,000 jobs for people in thi.s ProtJince to keep them al.Jve, $8,000 a year being below the poverty level. StarvRtlon Rnd misery, that is all this L3151 June 1.7, 1988 Vol XL gouc-:!rnrnent can put forward to the people of this Province. I think lhe M:i.nister of Social Services should hang his head in shame, hang his head down wh~n he is reading statemE!nts like this, Mr·. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, for anybody to stand and say that this government is proud to have ~ndeavoured to enrich the lives of the 1E!SS fortunate. Forty pE!r cent of the population of this Province are the 1~~ss fortunate:~, forty pE!r' CE!nt of the population of this Pr·ouince are living beJ.ow the poverty level. MR. PEACH: Yom· lE:~ader J.s not too bRdl.y off . MR. EFFORD: Sure, they are Jess fortunatE!, b 8 <: R 1.1 ~; e of t: h e d 'i. s <:3 r a c e t h 'i s government has placed on them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

EFFORD : A government which has no poJ.icy, a govermnent which has to call in a consultant from Ontario to teJ.J. th~Hn how to run the Department of Social Services, to the tune of $476,000 plus expenses, tAJill stand here! in this House today and take credit for something like this . Mr. Speaker, I say to the Ministe!r of SoclRl Services, and to this government, put a plan in pJ ace tJJhich Cr:Hl better enrich the lives of these people who Jive below the pover·ty l.i.ne, to get them IJP somewhere were they can have a decent standard of living and have some pride. SOME HON . MfMBERS: 1\Jo. sa R3 E>l

... Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member 1 s ti111e has elapsed . MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: T h e h o n . t h e 1 n r:1 HJ b 8 r· F o I" ~) 1: . .T o h n 1 s East. MR. LONG : M r . S p E!C\ k e r , i. t i. s e d r· 1 y o n a Fl"iday morning and we have gott en off to R very noisy start here . t noticed from thE! reaction of our young friE!nds -Ln the gall .er·y that they are quite shocked at the kind of noise levels we have already reached so early in the morning. MR. SIMMS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : Order, please! A point of order, the hon. thE!

President of the Council . MR . SIMMS : Mr . Spea ker, the Mi.n ·Lste r of So ci al Serv ices gav e a st ate ment wh ic h 1as te d aboui : a m"lnute, at the mos t. The member opposit e spoke lon ger tha n the Minister of Socia l Se rv ices, by my calculatio n, Rnd no w th~ me mb er· down here who is playing to the gaJ.J.ery, tryinr::~ t:o make a comment in front of thP students and teachr:1rs, hds satd noth ·ing abou L the statement whatsoever. No doubt hi .s ti .me has expired by now, anyway, because he is only supposed to have half the time of the Official Opposition. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please!

L3152 June 1'7, 1988 Vol XL There is no point of order. The hon. t.he membE!r' for· St. John 1 s East. MR. LONG : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Obviously, the Government HousE! l.r:~ader· i.s .in a fr:i.sky rnood earJ.y this morning as well . The point I a rn rna k J. n g , Mr . :5 p :~ r.1 kf:' r, ·L s that I do not think we are necessarily do ·i.ng our be st to r:\clcll"ess l·.:i·H,1 VE!I"Y serious issues raised by the rn :i. n i s t 8 r· :i. n td s s t R t e mE! n t , a n d that is people ·who arE ! suff E!ring in thts Province and who are "in need of assistance, particularly IA.Iil:h employment.

The rnin:istE!r' has brought in a s ta tE!InE ! nt on a program that .T. knot.~J, in sorne cases, is working well in put U . ng social assistance recipients to work, but he has given us no mater-ial tq work with "in putting forward a proper analysis of the program. Oral Questions MR. SIMMONS : Mr: . Speaker·. MR . SPEAKER: The h o n . th e rn E!ln bE:~ r for F o r t u n e - He r·m :i. ·t·. r.1 g 8 . MR . SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, I want to get attention of th e Minist er Municipal Affairs (Mr. Brett) a moment. He may have seen item which the CBC's Here Now did las!: night on Mr. King 1 s situation.

I believe, Speaker , anybody who saw particular - MR. SIMMS : the of fOI" the and Jack Mr. that Sure he was interviewed on the No. 58 R3152

same program . MR. SIMMONS : I know that. I sat.l.l the item, and anybody who sata.J the thing had l:o be moved by it and jarred by it, maybe a bit d·i.sgustE:1d- 1 am not sutne if that is the term - but certainly moved by it . The minister appeared to be quite on top of the case, the Jack King situation, from the cornrnE!nts I heard him make on television last night. I think he was apprised of lt, and familiar with it. Mr. Jack King of Fox Harbour had somE! problems, which are clearly documented, as a result of the contaminated water· he t;.Jas us·Lng to dress his stomach wounds.

J wonder would the minister indicate whether there is anything the government can do or c o n 1: ern p 1 r.1. b~ d o j, n g to ad cl r 8 s s h i. s situation? I believe the minister i.s at.1..Jare i:hr'-l.t he Ls in f.1 fr.1. i.r·J.y at;.Jkward sj tuation in terms of his access l~.o latJ.Jyers. I a111 surf:! he can get a lawyer, but thE! question of whether the t.otJJrl cottlcl pr:ly, i.f the judgement were made against i.l, is a more opere\ live one. I wonder would the minister indicate whether there is something the government can do to alleviate or address Mr . King's very particular situation? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. thr:1 Minister of MunicipaJ. Affairs. MR. BRETT : Mr. Speaker, as I under·stand the situation, CBC very properly addressed two questions in this case. One is, firs ·t of all, why in fac l: lawyers, neithern private nor o the rwi s e , la.Ji 11 take the case ; and, secondly, 'I gt1~1ss, iF i.n f,:~cL municjpalities should be allowed to opr:1rr.1. t0 tAli thout halJi.ng L3] 53 June 17, 1988 Vol XL municipality liability . Tho first question I cannot answer, as to why Legal Aid or pr Lvah;! l.au1yers \JJoul.d not take the case.

In the SE:1Cond instance, council s are not required under The Municipalities Act to have municipal liability. So I guess it is a matter of policy. It is a decision that government l.lrill have to makE! sornewhE!re down the road. It: is ver·y expr:Hlsiv(: !. I do not know what percentage of councils actually have liabtl:ity insurance, I wouJ.d suggest that most of thE!m do, but cibviousJ.y therP c~re sorne that do not. I think the reason :i. s thE~ cos t . I t IAJa s , at o rH:1 p o ·i n t in time, because I did discuss Ul'i.s tJJi.l:h t.:he stafF, not: really expensive. Today it is very, very expE:Hlsive.

So I gues~; :-i.l.: i.s a matl :E!r' of policy, Mr . Speaker, whether or not. we tAlf.Hl L ·i·.:o For·ce municipalities to have municipal J.it--lbJJ.-Ll ~y. Then t.he question arisE:1S can they pay for it? And ·Lf LhE:1Y cannol:, do IAJB pay or tJ.Jhatever? But it is a ver·y sad case, there i.s no doubt about that . Whether or not government would inevitably be held responsible, if in fact the casE! did go to court, I do not really knol.l.l.

I guess we could only determine that if in fact some Legal Aid lawyer or some private lawyer would agree to take the case to court; then if they won a judgment IJ..Jould be rnade if in fact government could be forced i:o be• responsible. 1 cannot answer that at the moment. But I agre!e tAli th the hon. m<,HrtbE:1r, it :l.s a ver·y sad case. And I think CBC did a good job for a change. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker . No. 58 R3153

MR . SPEAKER : The han . the member for Fortune - Hermitage . MR . SIMMONS : Mr . Speaker , th e minister talks abo ut th e fa ct that some cou nci ls do not hav e o r ar e not required to have this liabi.l i. ty insuri!\nce. Has the department or the government contemplated, investigated the possibility of a blanket insurance policy? Certainly the rates would come dot.~.m pret :l:y qu :ickJ.y J.f govern111enl : or1 behalf of the municipalities wottld acqui.r0 li.abi1 ·i.ty Jnsur·anc:e , particularly, for the smaller municipalities such as Fox Harbour. Js that under active consideration?

Does he see i.i : a!; a reasonable lik elihood? MR . BRETT : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPE AKE R: The han . the Minister of Municipal Affairs . MR. BRETT: Mr . Speaker, it is not un der active consideration , but I can say that we will be looking at the whole matter of municipality liability as soon as we can get in ·t:.o it. That, again, Js ~"~ very good thought . There is a p o s s i b J l i. t y • I s u p p o s e , t: h a i: tAJ e could have that type of ins ttrance . There i.s somel:hi .ng sjmilar to that now for schools, I believe. Maybe somethtng J.ik e that could be worked out.

But I can assure l:he han. member· !:hat tAle are going to be looking at municipal liability for councils. MR . SIMMONS : A final suppl emen tary, Mr. Speak er. MR. SPEAKER : A final supplem entary . L3154 Jun e 17, 1988 Vol XL MR . SIMMONS: It goes without saying , of course , that had we thi s kind of insurance , and this is hindsight - MR . SPEAKER : Or·der . plE1a se ! MR . SIMMONS: Had we thi s kind of poli cy - MR. SPEAKER : OrdE!Y', pl(:'ase! 1\lld'J [ hRve i't fJn.:-11 qUE!St.ion? ThE· han. m(:•mber is rna king a s l:atE!lTJE!nt :i. n s i: e f.l d of "' s !d. n g f.l q u e (> t i. o n . MR.

STMMONS : I wa s abou t to ask the ministE!r, Mr. Spe akt 1r MR. SPEAKER : Please do . MR. SIMMO NS: The minister realizes , of course . had this been in effect before, Mr. King might not have found himself in this situation. And in that context, but particularly in the context of the very unique set of circumstr.>.nces that Mr. King finds himself in, I return to the essence of my first question: Would the minister indicate whether there i.s something specific to Mr.

King • s case that rnd y be F.\ b 1 e i: o be done , or at the very least would he undertak -e to :i.nvesl:·i .c.:Jr.ll:~ l:hal : . po ssib:Lli.t y in the interest of addressing this most ltnfortt .lnr.'\h~ s lt:uati.()n? MR . SPEAKER : The han . the MinistE!r of Municipal A Ffa:l r·~, . MR . BRETT : We all hav e tw enty/ twenty vi si on in hindsight. Mr . Speaker . How ever. all I can say is H1a·t I am not aware of ~nything that No . 58 R3154

government can do at this par l:icttl.i:\r moment l-or Mr. KJny. As to the second question the han. gentl~~man askt:~d, Rgai.n I rE!peRI: that jf some private lawyer or lE!gal Aid t.a..Jere to l:ake th'i.~; 1:o court, then I guess a decision t.oJoulrl be mdde t.oJhe th~~r or· not government is ultimately r·esponsiblr::~. I do not know. Bul: ~t the moment there is nothing that I know of that government can do for Mr. King. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the mE!mber for Bonavista North. MR.

LUSH: I have a question for the Minister of Municipal AFfairs as IAJelL and it is on the five-year plans which l: h e p r· o v i. n c J a l g o v (~ r n me n t 1n e q u :i. r 8 s counc:iJs to submit. Based on the fact, Your Honour, l:hat government funds are severely limited, and based on the fact l·.:hal: governrnr.·:Hli: funds an~ allocated annually - MR. YOUNG: A point of order, Mr. SpeakGr. MR. SPEAKER : A point of order, Minister of Consumer Communications. MR. YOUNG: the hon. Affairs the and I do not wa n t to t a k e u p the h o n . member 1 s time, but we cannot hear a sound over here.

There is no voice over here whatsoever. MR. LONG: Tell your own colleagues to be qui.e t. MR. YOUNG: But I cannot hear you . I. 3 15 S June 17, 1.9813 lJol XI .. MR. SPEAKER : Ordc"~r, pl.~1aSE!! There is no point of order. The han. mc:1rnber for Bonavistr.~ North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Mllnic-Lpal (lffair·s. BasE:1d on the fact that government funds are sever("~J.y J.imited, and base'd on the additional fact that governments funds arc:! allocated annually, and, in thE! case of CapitaJ.

Works fundings particularly have become an intermittent, periodicaJ., hit--and--uliss funding system, is not the five-year requirement becoming a bit of an aJ.batross or a bit of an exercise in futil:i.ty for councils? MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Minister of Municipal A FFcdr·s. MR. BRETT : Min. Speake!r, I do not really follot~J !.:he hon. rnt~mb(!r 1 ~; l.i.nE! of thought or reasoning. I am not StJre what h(~ is getting at ..

I think the reason for the five-year pl.r.lns, rnor0 than any t.h:i.ng was, was to try to determine what it is going to cost the Province over thE! next five years, if you wi1 J., For waLer and set.oJer servicE!S. Again, I do not follow the hon. member 1 s r·easoning. I do not know what he is getting at. MR. LUSH : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han . the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr . Spe~'lk{:H', is thE:~ minister at..uare of how frustrating it is to 1\Jo. 53 R3155

councils who submit five-year plans, for capital vJorks spendings in particular, but do not know from year to year what they are to receive? Specifically, Mr. Speaker , my question to the minister is th is: Are monies that are allocated to councils, particularly Capital Works monies, allocated on the basis of identified and prioriz ed needs as submitted in the counci1 s 1 five-year plans? MR . SPEAK ER : T h e h o n . 1.: h (~ M :L n i. s i.: e l" of r"! u n J. c ·i. p d J. Af fairs . MR. 13Rf:TT : Now I know where ·tht~ hon . TnE!rnber is getti.ng hi .s :i.nfor'lnat ·i.on .

T. kl-1ow what council called him now . Generi:l.ll.y speaki .ng , I would s~y, Mr. Speaker, it is based on the fi.ve-yer.tr plan, but [ do not Ud.nk that any plans, particularly the Five-year plans he is talking about, are etched in stone, and t.hE!re would be nothing wrong , ... ri.th devia ting from the plan if in any given year there is less money available than required to complete a phase that is recommended for a certain year . Of course the council s ar e frustrated .

I suppose people are also frustrated be cause they do not have their roads paved, or be cau se they do not hav e ~ new school, or whatever, but the han . gent.l<,~man knows i:h~t. Ud.s progr· eun, I guess like most of our capital L•.JO r k s pro g r a rn s , a r o bas E! d o n Uw economy, and if the economy is good in any giv en year then we can get mo1~e money . And, as we did l. C\ s i:. y e Cl r r.t n d t h e y e cH ' b e f o r o , :i. f tht~ economy is down then there will be less funds . MR. LUSH : A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . L3156 June 17, 1988 Vol XL MR .

SPEAKER : The hon . the member for Bonavista North. MR . LUS H : Whe n capital funding is ma de avail able to counc ils, are they all ocate d ro r spec iFic areas of ex pendi tu re? If so , who makes this de cision? I guess I am as kin g do councils have any discretionary powers at all once the Department of Municipal Affe~irs haue awarded capital fu ndings to councils? Have they an y cl'i.sc r•eb .onary po1,~,~n· ai: all? Are t hey dictated to as to how L:hey sho11ld spend th :i.s 1noney, and 1J1h01n r.~re th3 y dicte~i:ed to? MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Mini ster of Municipal Affairs . MR .

BRETT : I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that very often, the council. in consultation with their MHA, may de cide 'that a particular project in a community should go ahead this year . I woul d hope that there is co-operation, from both sides of the House, 1.ui th t.he councils in thedr areas . I have always co-operated with my coucils.

I have always been able to sit do1.un IAiith Ul E!ITI in l::he Spring, Fall, or whatE:wer , L.IJhE!n they apply for the ir capital works, they advise me IA.Ihat their pr'i.ori.t: i.E!S i:l.re, e1nd usui'\lJ.y IA.IE~ ar·e able to work out an arrangemen t tH~ t IJ.H~ r~ n 1J ~; . accommodat e c o 1.1 n c :i. J. , b 1.1 t co-operation t.: h c~ c o 1.1 n c '.i. J. . MR . EFFORD: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : ThE:~ hon. thE:~ No. 58 Obvi.o1.1sJ.y 1..\.IE:~ t:r-y to the wishes of thE! a~ ai n ther e has to be between the MHA and ITIE!mber fo1~ Port d (~ R3 156

GraUE:1. MR. EFFORD: ~hank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker·, my quE~sLi.on :i.s directed to the Minister of Consr~rnE~r· Affr'l i.rs i'lnd Communications (Mr. Young). and it is the samE:1 line of quest:i.on :i.ng i'IS that ft"om thE:1 han. member· for BonauJ.sl:.a North.

Nor.AJ, I ask the Mjnistl':'r of Consumer Affairs, the ITIE:1mber· for Harbour Gr·acc~1: T.n light of the fact that the town council of Spaniard's Bay this year had an allocation of some $200.000. after they put engineering studies in, I ask the minister did he, as MHA for the district, interfer as to where the money was going to be spent and tell the council in what areas they should spend the money, irregardless of the fiue-year plan they h~d in place? MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! I do not think that quest ion is in order.

The hon. member should address a question dealing with the hon. rninistE:1r' s particular portfolio. MR. EFFOIW : Wel1 then, Mr. Speaker, I will direct the question to tho Minister of Municipal Affairs. I ask the Minister of Mrmicipal Affairs: Is he aware that the fiue-year plan submitted by the town of Spaniard's Bay was on a need basis for the area to l.llhich they had the money allocated, and that the MHA for the district interfered in that particular decision and told them that if they did not spend the money where he said, they would not get the money? L3157 June 1.7, 19813 Vol. XL MR.

SPEAKER: l"he han. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. · · MR. BRETT: Mr. SpeakE!r', I rc~1pe~L that thE! five-year plan is not writt.E!n in stone. The pr:irnary purposE~ of l:he five-year plan is to determine the amouni: of money that gover·nmc,1nt 1Ali11 neE!d over the nE!Xt number of years. Again. Mr. Speaker. I would hope that always there is co operation between the two leuels of government, the municipal and the provincial. That means that the MHA and the mayor· and the councillors in Hds district would co-operate and gE!t the job done. MR. EFFORD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. the hon. thE! member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD : I ask the minister: Is he alAJar·e, numbc.;!r' one, thc:ll: t:hc~~ counc:i.l of Spaniard's Bay is very upset? Did they write htm ~ letter explaining what the MHA for Harbour Grace (Mr·. '(orrng) r.vas cloJng, expressing their concerns about their f:.i.Vf~ ·YE~ar· pl<Hl, Hnd that the MHA for Harbour Grace had written them a le:1th1r telling l::hE!TTl whE:H'E:~ they had to spend the money? MR. SPEAKER: The hon . l:hE! Ministc~r of Municipal Affairs . MR. BRETT: If there is a problem there. Mr. Speaker.

I would hope that the MHA and the mayor· and councillors can sit down and work it out. MR. EF[ORD: A final supplementary, Mr . Speaker . 1\Jo . 51l R31S7

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary . MR. EFFORD: Did thE! Minister of Municipal Affair's r(->.ceive a letter from the Council of Spaniard 1 s Bay explaining their di.ffer·encc->.s, that they did not want to spend the money only in a need basis, and that they received a letter from the MHA from Harbour Grace telling them that they must spend the money 1..vher·e he sa.i.d it has l:o bE! spent? Did you receiVE! a letter from 17.he Council of Sp<Hlidrd 1 s Be~y? Thel"e was one fl"Om the MHA for· Hc:-n·bour Grac(~ IAJh 'i.ch Cc:ll.lsc~d i:.hE! Council of Spaniard 1 s Bay to wr .ite thctt l.el::l :r,~r? MR.

BARRETT : Would you repeat the question? MR . SPF.AI<F.R: rhe hon . l-.11(:~ Minister· of M1.1n:i.c.i.paJ. Affa:irs . MR . BRETT: Mr . Speaker, between two and three o'clock yesterday, I signed something like 250 letters, and that is not unusual. I would not suggest that I sign 250 letters every day, but there is just a multitude of letters that go across my desk every single day. And sometimes there are two or three days when I do not get to see my mail . N01..1.1 it is quite possible there could be a letter in from Spaniard 1 s Bay, as a matter of fact there are dozens of letters.

Therl:'! i. s ma.i.J . down thert:'! this morn ing that have not been opened yet. So i~ is possible that there i s a 1 e t t e r on the way to rne ft•om i:he Counci .J. of Spaniard's Bay, there might even be one do1~1n i.n rny off'i.ce I bu 1: a.l : thjs point in time I have not seen 1.'\ lett er from Spaniar·d 1 s Say, but : that is not to say there is not L3158 June 17, 1988 Vol XL one down there, though . MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Waterford - Kenrnounl:. MR . GULLAGE: Mr . Speaker, my qUE!Sb .o n is to thE! Mini ster of Consumer· Affairs and Communications (Mr . Young) .

Cons·i.der·ing now thctt t:h(,~ House of Commons Committee on Banking has r·e porI: eel to lh(:~ House, and IAJC-:' are surE! to see some changes, I IAJould think, in Federal legislation dealing wi th banks and The Bank Act ·., llJhr.1t i.n ·i.tiattve has t:h·is government taken to intervene on behalf of the consumers of this Province, as far as banking is concer·ned I to see l:hai.: net~oJ fees it has bN!n concluded ·!-:hat thE!se fees have been ex cessive and charged without authority From consumers and from banking customers - and changes will be for! ·:hcorning, and that ~i.n fact the banks will be required, as they were years ago, to cover their expenses with the spread between savings dolJ.ars that they take in and lending dollars on t:he other end, r·ather than r:~xcessive fE!BS as we see at present?

MR . YOUNG : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of ConsumE!I" Affctirs and Communications. MR . YOUNG : Mr . Speaker, at a confer~nce of Consumer ()ffa.i.rs M:i.n:i.sters from across the country last February :i. n nl. b e r· t: (.·1 I W :~ d j_ s c u s s €~ d t. h i s matter, but it is under federal j u r· :i. s d i r: 1.: Jon , an cl IAJ .::~ h a v e supported the federal government No. 58 R3158

in their programs to bring down the fees charged by the banks. Once the new act is in place, I presume thr.'t tJJE! t.~od.lJ. be foJ.lotJJ'ing up, monitoring and looking into the situcltion in thB Province. MR. GULLAC;F.: : A supp1 ementary, Min. Speaker . MR. SPf.AKfR: ~ suppJ.("!rnentt 'li"Y, l.:he hon . lh(:~ ntE!TTibt::!l" f o 1" Wet t e r·f o r·d ·- I< E:Htmo u n t . MR.

GULLAGE : Would the rntn:i.s tc,~r, cons i.dr~r·:'i.ng the importance, of cotJrse, of banking - pr·obably no o t hf:~r <:lrea of financial service is cloSE!r to us, to the consumer - will the minister now undertake to have a permanent jo·int commitl:ee set. up, much as we have a committee de a 1 i n g wi t h t he off s h ore , to monitor bank charges and service fees and, indeed, co-oper·ate tAri th The . Bank Act more closely than we have SE!(-:!n .Ln the past, reRlizing that it has been strictly federal up until now?

WilJ . thE:~ rn"inistE!r see that a joint committee is set up on a permanent: bRs ·i.s t.o dt:~<:~.l with The Bank Act in the future? MR. SPEAKF.R : ThE:~ hon. the Minister of Consumet" Affai.rs r.~ncl Cotnmun.i.cat i ow;. MR. YOUNG: Ml". Specti<E:H', I IAJill take the hon. member's request under adu·isement and look into the matter. But we do won:i.tor bdnk chi:lrges, and lJ.Je do get complaints pertaining to them, and 'insurcmce r·ates and so for·th. I will take the request under advisement. MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han.

L3159 June 17, 1988 Vol XL the member for Waterford Kenmount. MR. GULLAGE: As a further step, Mr. Speaker, tJJOttl.d the rn-i.nis t(: ~r consider changing the role of Sttper··i .ni:endeni: of rnstH'i:HJce, t.~oJh.ich we now have in place de!aling only t.~od t: h _i, n s 11 r· iHl c €~ c: o rn p clrl i E! s , a n d jointly co-operating lJ.Jith the federal Sup erintend ent of Insurance, to SuperintE•ndE!nt of F:i.nanc ·i.al Inst:i. ·l:.tltions clS W( :!

S(,~E! in some other provinces, to deal 1..v:i . t. h d n c,~ v ("! r· t ncr(~ cl s t n g con F us :ion and intE!r·rningling, if you 1ike, of financial institul.:ions, and thus bf:~ morE:~ closely tuned to what is happening in the marketplace now rather than having a superintendent strictly dealing with insurance? Would he consider changing that role to Superintendent of Financial 1nstitutions? SOM E HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! MR. SPEAKER : The hon. U·w MinJster of Con sumer Affairs and Communications . MR . YOUI\JC : Mr . Speaker, again I wiJl look ].nl.:o i.i~. r3ttl:.

I do knot.~oJ that . t:he Superintendent of Insurance now has qu:i.l::{~ a tJJOr'k load. I suppoSE! it would have to a government d e c i s i o n ·i. f we tJJa n L l o inc r· e a s e our staff, but: I will take it under adtri.sement and look into it. MR . SPEAKER : The han . the member for St. John's East. MR . LONG : Mr. Speaker, I lJJould like to put a question to the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Butt) . 1\Jo. 58 R3159

'<. It has been a month since we in the Leglsldture debated clnd adop te d a resolution calling for ar1 i·nv est iga tio n in to the cu 1 tura 1 economy of the Province and the status of the drt ist. I would li ke to ask the minister toda y could he advise the House what measures th e d epartmen t has · ta ken to put in pl ace the committee wh ich is going to car ry out this study and perh aps give so me definition of the parameters of the study? Essentiall y, I wan t an update on what is happening with th(:~ issue. MR.

SPEAKEI~ : Th(:~ hon. l~.h(:~ Mird s"lE!r of Culture, R (:~ c r e a t i. o n a n d Y o u t. h . Mi~. BUTT : Mr . Speaker, I thank the han . rne111ber for· lri.s qu(:~S l. i.on . Ther '(,~ :i.~; sorrH:~ preJ.iru:inary wot~l< done on ·jt bl.li: Jn ract Uwt"(~ I).Ji.lJ. nol : Ln~ .~., Jot of work done on it, until July , C\ftE!r ' the conference "i.n Stl:.~phenviile .

BE! cause I arn expecting l:hi'\1: there wi1l . be sorn(:~ good information coming forward, good suggestions coming fotniJJard from the working artists, which will have to be embodied in the parameters of this comprehensive r·eview that 1JJe ar·e goi.ng to take. I think that I have indicated that to the House and to the hon . member before. MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker . Mf~. SPEAKER : A supplementary, the han. the rnetnber for St .. John's East. MR. LONG : Mr .

Sp(:~i'\kc-:~r, 1 IJ.JOuld like i:o <:'Is!< the ministE:~r, in anticipation of Lhe :i.rnporlant. conference IAJhi.ch i.s going to occur in Stephenville at Uw E~ n d o f J 1 1 l y , c o 11 J. d h e <:r"i. lJ e L3160 June 17, 1988 Vol XL some signa]. to dE:~legates who will be C\ttend:ing this conference, to artists and people actiVE! in ·the arts community across the Province, about IJJhat kind of work th(~Y cH'E?. E:~xpecb.~d to do by IJJi.iiY of preparation for this conference for the two studies which are going to be done?

If the minister could give some signal as to IJJhat is E!XpectE!d of people who wiJ.l bE! coming to thls conferene in advance, I think that IJJould assjst the progress of the report that the minister is working on. MR . SPEAKER : The 11 o n . f: he M .. i. n i. s 'tEH' of C u J. t u n~ , Recreation and Youth. MR. BUTT: M t' . S pea k c-H' , T. h a IJ e no t organ i zed the conference, for one thing. I hdue be mn invited there as the Minister responsible for cultural a f fa :i. r' s i. n 1: h 0 P r o u i n c e .

T h e r e i s an established comrnitt :e e in place i:ha 1·. l.s drallri.ng 11p an agE~nda for that conference, and I have every reason to believe that those people will do a good job in setting an Jnteresting agenda and one that will give working artists attending that conference the flexibility to put forward their points of view . I have a message to bring when I go . Obviously I will not do t h a t today , b u t I have a message to bring when I go the re. J. am also go ing the re with an open mind to hear what those people have to sa y, which I thin k is equally important . MR. LONG: Mr . SpE:~aker . MR .

SPEAKER : n FJ ni'l l supplementary . MR. I_ONG : M~Speaker, with the Stephenville,, confc,~t'f:Hlce s-1:-.i.lJ. ·.i.n rni.nd, 1 IJJoul .d No. 58 R3160

like to ask the minister· is he in contact with officials of the city of St. John's and the recently established Arts Advisory Committee, who ~re themselves preparing submissions and ctctivities in advance of the Stephenville conference, particularly tAJU:h respect 1:o t:he developments around the York Hwal:re o:l.l'ld ,:q Jni.IJ.tj_ ·FJIIr'pOSC:~ arts facility jn the city? Does the rni.n.isl :er· PlctvE:! conLc:Ht t~ri .Lh Uds nc~IAI committE!e -that t~he city has estc~bli.shed? MR. SPi:r11<i:R: The hon. t.h~:~ Minister· of Culture, Recrecttion and Youth. MR.

BUTT : I have not had contact with the comrni ttee directly. But certa i.nly those who were responsible for putting the committee in place, namely, the Dep~ty Mayor of St. John • s, Mrs Duff, as late as last eveqing, as a matter of fact, we had a discussion on l:hat very topic at the Museum for the opening of the Egbert Warren exhibit, St. John's at the Turn of the Century. T. had about 150 people come to that event, and one of . the t.hi.ngs T discussed MR. LONG: You did not invite me . MR. OUTT: I t.h.d not i.niJ.ite the han. membcH·. Wel], I apoJ.ogi:ze, Mr . Speaker.

I tAJi.l.l. kN1p 1·:hat i.n tn'i.nd for· l~he nE!Xt time around. to invite the hon. rnemb(:1r. T though 17. you tAJottl.d have been on my list. I apologize to you. I did hc:we an interel:>'l :ing discussion with the Deputy Mayor of St. John's on tbat ver·y matter, and, of _course, as you know, that dis ti ngui shed woman has devoted L3161 June 17, 1988 Vol XL more than pa$slng interest in the historic and cultural E!Vents that take place in the city. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. l~h(:~ me1nber for· Burgeo Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT: i"hiHlk you I r~r·. Speaker·.

My cptes Lion is For the Mi .nj .ster of Public Works and Services (Dr. Tworney). on~:! oF t:h(~ (:1XC(o1pl::ion~; to The Public TE!ndE!ring Act, as ,~c:~por·tE!d in May, IAJdS a r'E!I'lE'IAJal. of a lease on 2500 square feet of space from E.I.L. Holdings Ltd. for the Department of HeaJ.th in Hc:u·bour Gr'iH:e. Now, was the lease renewed at the same price per squr'.lre foot as the:~ ortginal lease signed some years ago? I ask the mi.ni.ster· that. · MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Public Works dnd Services. DR. TWOMEY: Thank you, Sir. I am aft~aid that I wi11 havE:' to tr.~ke l".hi:tl-.: as no+.: ·i.cc~.

You Cdn ask tnE:1 about 600 other leases. at J.o;:.st:, o:u1d il: t~ottld b~~ irnposs-i.ble for me to zero in at this pi:H't-.i .c•Jl.ar· 1·.-.i .rnE! and gi.1Je you any details about leases we have all over the Prouince. r.IJR. G1LBERT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A suppl(~mentary. member for Burgee MR. GILBERT: Why I thought the No. 58 thE:1 hon. thE! Bay d'Espcd.r. minister·. would R3161

be familiar wi.'l:h l:h:i.s one is thai: u.1hen I trj ed to get the information yesterday From officials in hls department, I was 1: o l. d f: hat I wo t 1 1 d h au e i: o g e t t h j_ s information directly from the minisf :er·. So if the rnin ister has nothing to hide, why would officials in his department say that I had to get this information from the mini ste r·? That is 1.uhy I asked him why, so that is why I figured he would know. So, will you tell !TIE! why? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services . DR . TWOMEY : I must say, Mr. SpE!aker, the quest"i.on mystifi.c:'S rue.

Why should I have something to hide about something T know nothi.ng abo1.1i~.? SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hec:lr! MR. GJLBF.RT : A fj nal suppJ emE:~ntary, Mt•·. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : A final supplementary, the han. the member· for Bur·geo -- Bay d'Espoir . MR . GILBERT: Mr . Speaker, why would a department lease office space for the Department of Health in Bay Roberts for $6.94 a square foot, yet pay $16.04 a square foot for virtually the same premises in Harbour Grace, not twenty miles away?

Would the minister tell this House if the reason for it is the fact that the owner of the property political Minist:er Young)? in H,u·bour ally of of Pub1 ic Would that be MR. YOUNG : 1.31.62 June 1.7, 1.933 Grace is a the former Works (Mr. the reason ? lJo.J. XI . A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the M .i n i s l e r· of C o n s 1 1m E-~ r A F fa i r· ~; a n d Communications. MR . YOUNG: I thi.nk that is defini tel y out of order, Mr . Speaker. It was done thr ·ough public tender·. That is a slu r on me, Mr.

Speaker, and I fee1 sure wht~n the hon. gentleman finds out it is an ext ension to a three- yaar ledse pluG a two-year option . That is what happened, Mr. Speaker. t do think he is giving wrong information to th e liouse when he says i .. t is $16 .00 a squar(~ foo ·t. MR. EFFORD: To that point of order, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To Ul e p o i. n t o f o r d c~ r , t h E! h o n . the member fol" Por·t de Grave. MR. EFFORD: The MHA for· Har·bour Grace, Mr· .

Sper.tkt!Y', got L:o h.is f( ,~E!t vc->.r·y clearly to explain about the l~.endE~r. kno1JJing full wc-:~1.1 what the MHA from Burgee was getting at was the fact thdt his campaign manager, Mr. SpE!aker, owns that particular building. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! MR . SIMMS : It is starttng to get out of hand, obviously, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please:~! MR. SIMMS : If the hon. member does not want r.·lnybody to gc-:~1". nctsi":y <~nd d:i.rty, he should not ge ·t into t:hat kind of 1\Jo . !:) B iB16/.

nonsense, because we could do the same thing, as he knows. MR. BAIRD : Because his brother build a building over three years ago. MR. SIMMS : could not tht>re tiJJO or I think :it was a distasteful ques l:.ion' i:lnd th(~ rJJi.n is t.l::!r' of Pub] ic Works did the right thing by no t even gluing it cl re spons e. MR. SPEAKFR: Order, please! There i.s no po:i.nt the quE:~stion 1.1.1as cor ·rec t one. o f o r· d (:~ r· , b 1 1 ·1: not quite a The hon. thE:~ melllb(·H' ·for· Uw St:r·r:d. t of Belle Isle. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DECKER : Mr .

Speaker, my question is for the han . the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Mat tl1ews), who likes the Premier's see1t. I 1.1.1an-t to Rsk the ruin:ister to clear up some confusion with the Cclbot InstitutE:~. On the one hand. the m i n i_ s t e r --i_ s s .:~ y i. n g -1: h a 1: l~ h e t r <:l d 1:~ courses at the Cabot Institute are bei.ng transferred.

On the other hand, p~;:wpJ e are say:l_ng that the COUrSE:~S lH'B be i.ng canceJ.J.c ,H:I. 1\JOIJJ w:ilJ the minister tE:~ll the House IJJh<'lt are the facts? ()r·e the tr·ades about to be tra·nsfE:~rTed or are the trades about to be canceJ.lc:!d? MR. MATTHEWS : Mr·. Speaker· . L3163 June 17, 1988 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Ad~1anced · Stu _d:ies. MR. MATTHEWS : Mr . Spe.ikE:~r. the anst.~Jer to l:hat is somE:~ arE! being canCE!lled and somE! are being trRnsferred. MR . DECKER: Mr. ~:)peak~~r . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle . MR.

DECKF.R: r.IJ r' . s p e c\ k

E) r· I 1.1.1 h d +·. ,,, 11 s IAI (~! I" cl (I E! s t h E! minister have fol" the peoplE! who dre saying that the tr~des are being dropped at Cabo t and they a r r:! no-t: b l':~ "i_ n g p -L c k c~! d 1.1 p at -t: he community colleges because the community collegues are already strapped for money and cannot affor·d thE! courS(-:!S they have. J.et alone taking on the additiona1 cour·ses whi.ch are left over from Cabot? So people are saying that thE! t r ad c,~ s are b c,d n g d r· o p p e d , c~ 11 of them, not some and somE!. What ansiA.Ier t.~Joul.d the mirdster give those critics? MR. MATTHEWS: Mr .

Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister Dc,~•J(~~l.oplrH,~n-1-. .:~nd Advi'lnc ed Ml~. MATTHf~\13: of Career Studies. l'-1r·. Speaker, the fivE:~ community coJ. 'legH s of l:he Protri.ncE:~ are receiving $32 million this year f r· om -1: h e P r· o lJ i. n c E! t o c iH' r· y o u t their programs in thE:~ various rt-:!gions and communi l:i.c ,~s of the Province. And as I said yesi::c,H·d,;~y, cons11ltation IAJds heJ.d with the presidents of the communi t.y colleges, i.n the budget process, and each president feels No . 58 R3163

comfortable with UtE:~ budget, E:1 x c E:~ p +: f o r· o tH:1 f>r' o b 1 c,~ rn l: h r.d: h ~.~ s be c:HI h j g h J i g h ted in this House by Uw hon. lhe rnc,~mber· for· Sh~phc,~nvi11 E~ (Mr·. K. Alyward), beci'\t~St~ thE:~ Wesl:ern ComrnttnH·:y Co] lege had a pr·ob1 ern as ~ result o f an una 1.11: h or i. z E! d o v c,~ r E:' x p c,~ n d i. t u r e h.-~st year, which, of colH'SE:~, was b r· o u g h t t. o U1 E! H o u s e 1 s a t t E:~ n t·. i o n ''' number of l.llE:~eks ago . But what we have to remember as u.Jell, Mr·.

Speaker, is that the institutes and t.h101 corrununity coJ.le:~ges have pr·r:~sidents and they have Boards of GOV(-?.rnor·s, and -the Boards of Governors are representative of all the communi ties in the region of thE:~ community college. It ls a localized Board. The reason that Lue havt~ loci:lliZE!d th<-:~ Boards is to havr:~ input from the local cornmunit.Le:> to b(:~st dE~tE!t'rn.inE! tht~ needs of the regions and cotnrnuni t:i .es. HH~SE~ 3o<-H'ds of Govr:~rnot"s, IA.Je give thE!m a grant in ·~ -L cl MR. LONG: The community js angry. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR . MATTHI:WS : Mr .

Speaker, we ar e here for the se nte nc ing of one of i:hose thi.s morning, maybe we should sentence two . So I wish the hon . gentletnan tA.Jould be quiet. Mr . Speaker, what I am saying is that the Boards of Gouer·nors make dec isions relating to the communi ty co llege r~g i ons of the Province. And we are spending $183 mill:i.on Uds year tn post-secondary education. MR. LONG: That is i.rr·elr:~vr.ult . 1..3 16 L\. Junr::~ 17, 1988 Vol XL MR. MATTHE'WS: It ·i.~; f'(:de,Jatd: that $1/.0 mi.l.l.ion of the $183 mjllion is being s~ent i.n the C'i. l:y of S t:.

John 1 s, and the hon. mE:~mbet" is down therE:~ cornplRi.n:i.ng! M R . S P E A K E R :. OrdE!r, please! The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Mr~. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: ThE:~ hon. t:he mE:Hnber for· St. John 1 s North. MR....:. J . C A R T E R_ : M r· . S p e ell< E! r· , T. 'AIO ul. d l. :i. k E! t. o pl"E!sent the r·eport of the Standing Cornrrri. U·.E!t~ on Pr'i .lJ:i lt:'ges <::tnd Elections: The Standing Committee on P r· J 1r.i. J.

E:~ g E~ s •:l n d F 1 (0! c L .. i. u n s r' r:~ c Ed v EH:I from the House on Jum~ 14 an 01"de1" o f R c~ F e:1 r· e n c <:~ c h a r g l. n g il: lAd t h t h E:' task of investigating and l"eporl :'i.ng on l:hE~ disclosure"! by the member for Menihek of the contents of a surnmdry of the dt"aft r'epor· ·t of the Standing Orders Cormni t tee. Earlier in their present dE!l:Lbc-?.rations, the Standing Orders Committee agreed not to discuss their proposals outside the meeting without first giving notice of their intention to do so.

The member for Menihek admitted in the House that he had disclosed i:h~~ con ·t.E~ni:.s o·f the dr·afl :: report of thE! Cornrnittee to a Sunday Express r· e f~or L e r . l h C'! ntE:~mb c,1 r· No. S8 R3164

1.1.1ent-. on to scl.y that he had informed the Chairman of the Cornrni ttee that an ar·ticle on the Committee 1 s recommendations was likely to appear in the next issue of the newspaper. Mr. Fenwick was not present on Jun~~ 13 IA.Jhen th~>. Chair·man of the Committee, Hon. James Russell, rose on cl point of privilege which r·esulted in this r·efere:~nce to the Conuni.U.:E'!(~ oF Pr·ivil.E:!gE:!S b11l.: -Ln mn interview with an Evening Telegram r·epor·ter Sc'-d.d, among othe1" t:hJngs, that Ml".

Russ<:~ll had boen 11 t;1xh'E!IIlely d ·ishonc~st 11 .i.n i:hdl". he has m:lsre:'pre:!sented th~' si i·:ua-1: i.on. 1n hi.s si.:dl:ement: to i::hC:1 HoiJSI::1 on June 14, Mr. Fenwick admitted di.sclosi.ng the i.nfor·rn<'li:ion i.n question to a reporter but said th~l: he had beJ.i .e ved Ulc:it hE:1 had complied with the Committee 1 s no l: :i. c e r C::~ qui rt,1HIE:Hlt in 1-. hat: hE! h;"d advised the Chairman of the forthcoming newspaper clrticle. Mr. Fenwick also stated that he had believed dll the caucuses would have had the opportunity to revie1.1.1 the contents of the draft report before the newspaper

article appe::1ared. Mr. Fenw"ick stated that he realized he had been wr ong to disclose the information in question, accepted full responsibility, and ~pologized for his actions. · We are unawar·e of any previous premdlure c:ind deli.bera~e dJ.sc]osur·e of thE! cornmitte~~ 1 s r e. par· t i. n 1\Jel~jf 01.1 ndl r'l nd d ncl Latn·ado In. This disclosure was no Ci.'\ s 1 ~ ~ l. s l. i p of t: he +-. o n g u e or· inadvertc-:!nt lapse of caution. Mr·.

Fenwi .ck admit ·l:ed tha i: i:h:Ls was ;:~, deliberate and pr·emedi tated act and in ou r opi.nion 111a s an t"'l tt"'Hnpi : to circumvent and subvert the very instit utio n of parliament. L3165 June 17, 1988 Vol XL ThE:1 public "is right to demand a strict accounting by government and the only effecl::lve instrunie::~nt to ensure such an accounting is parliament. Governments may and sometimes should be brought down but any clction which threatens the very . institution of parliament must bE! v.i.c->.wed t3.S an extremE!ly serious matter. In Newfoundland bE :!CaU$E!

I~JC:1 ht~IV8 b~~E~I'l -i.n living memory (1934 ·- 1949) bE!en dr:'priVE!d of f:h .. i. s ins t.:i. i:11l. ::i.o n tAl<:! s ho1.1ld be particularly vigilant in ensuring .:i. ts vi.gor·. ll: :i.s cl.t'1etr Fr·om Lho au l::hor·it:-i.es that premature disclosure of the contE:1n+· .:> of thE! r·c,~por·t of a parliamentary committee is a b r· e a c h o F p r .i. v :i. 1 e g <:1 : 11 T h e publication or disclosure~ of flr'OCE~ed""i.ngs of COiflmittE!C:1S con d u c ted wi t h c 1 o s e d door· s or of drr.lfl:. r·E:~ports of commitl:ees beforE! they have been reported to the House IA.Ji .ll, ho1J.IC:1V(~In, constitute a breach of privilege or a conternpt. 11 Ersk.inr::1 rJtay, Parliamentary Practice, T1,uent"ieth Edition, Pag~.:~ 154.

This refE!rence is adopted by BE!auchesne in the Fifth Edition of Parliamentary Rules and Forms on Page 203. The r·eason for· Uris is obuious.

A Committee whtch meE~ts in carnere1 depends for :its success on rnutual trust among its fTIE•mber·s 1~1lri. c h rnu s t confidentially respect without which 1: hE1 such a cornrn ·i.l~ I:EH1 I;.,JOIIld bE! hampered in carrying pd r·J.i. a1ne::1 n L r:t t' y dul:"i .!:'!S. ser-i.ously out its Mr·. · ft·>.rliJ.J.i.ck has i:ldmi .l~led thE! alleged premature disclosure and I~H:' f i. n d 1: 11 ;:' 1: 1: h (~ s o c' c 1: ions const"ittJte a clear-cut breach of F>r'i .•Jil.ege c:ind cl(~mons l·.:rate conb :1mE..t_ for the Assembly of which hE:1 is a part. ~ll:hough Mr.

Fenwick has apologized we F"ind that such a seri.ous breach uJarr·ant:.s fi.r·m No. 58 R316S

- -· . .. .... ··- · -- · - 4 • - · ·-·-· · -···- - action by l:he House, and l.o.Je, ther·efore, recommend as follows: That beca use com mittees whic h wor k i. n c arne r· a de p e n d f o r• ·r. he i. r· s 'J r. c e :; s on tru st, confi dentialit y and hono11r·, quali.Li .es nol : dernonst :r·aha d by Mr . Fen wick, he be barred fro m si.+:t"ing on such c:on nn i.i :f:e~:l:> Fo r· H1e dur·ation of this Ho use of Assembl y; rhet l: the IOeiiJber fo r Sl :. John Is East, Gene Lon g, be in vite d to replace Mr.

Fenw i.c k on such com ntittees, wh ere the House dee ms that the th:i r·d pa rliau Jeni:ar y group be represented; That Mr . Fenwick be suspended from this House for three cle ar days; That the Speaker, Fe nwi c k for the dishonesty on the Chairman which was Evening Telegram; r·epri.rnand allegation part of quoted in Finall y, we reco mm en d that · House t t'l k e s i: e p s l:o pro v :i. de in future sus pension fro m House shall en'l:i;~i.l i'\ loss sa lar y for the period of s 1.1 s p e n s :i. on . Mr. of thE: ~ The the I·: he! t the or thE:~ Mr .

Spectker, this r· c~ po r·l· : "i. ~; unctn :inrou s, sincere, and dE:!eply Felt. r.IJR. SPEAH :f~: When shall the r·eport be received? MR . SIMMS: Now, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : Now . MR . SIMMS : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPF:AKER : The hon. the President of the Counci.l. L316q JUnE:' ].7, 1988 Vol XL MR. ST.MMS : Mr . Speaker, having heard the r· (,~ p or· 1.: of 1:: he co rmwi . t 1:: e (-:! , i. t is· rn y responsibility, as t he Government l·lollSt :~ l.t:~c!ld~~r·, t·.o pr· o po s E:~ ·l:he C!ppropr·iate motion. The only one I .i.nl :<:~nd Lo pr· opo s(:> i.s the on e specifically dealing with th e Cjll t-:!

S i::j .o n ol- $ 11 Sp E!I'1S 'L on . Taking into consideration the serio t~sn<:!ss of t h~) mat te r, an d certainly the conviction of the cornrn:i. t·l:ee, whl ch l.o~Jas rna de up of members from both the government side c\S t.uell as the Official Op position side, I u..Jould move that the three si tting days, recom mended by the committee , be accepted as suspension for the mem ber for Mehihek, but that one of those da ys would include toda y, the remainde r of today 1 s sj tting . In ot.he r words, the remainder · of today 's sitti ng , a nd Monda y and Tuesda y of next week. I make that motion . MR .

SPEAK ER: F3P Fo r'lo! pil -1-·.l: .. i.ng the hon . th e 1-.h a t·. rno tion, lAJould member for Menih ek l.'i.ke t.o lfl·"'h ' ~ br· :i.eF sta l~.ement? Then I will ask him to withdraw . The ho ·n. the m~~mber fo1~ Menihek . MR . FENWICK : ~'lr ·. SpE:~<: ~kE !t', T a.1n no t going to argu e with the fi ndings of th e c o rrmri t b ~E!. I F"i.ncl r.l cornrnil·: t~~e that is composed of three rnernb E•rs of l:.h(:> governm(:111t s:i.ch' <~n d three members of the . Official Opposition, with no repr·esentation from our caucus, makes it difficult - SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.

FENWICK : f\l o , i. f i. 1·. i. s r n p r e s e n t. "'- L i. lJ E! o f' t. h e No. S8 R3166

House, it i.s r·c:1pr·c:1S~~ntaLi.tJ<-?. of i:hc:1 House - it makes it very difficult t.o know even when the comud tt<:!e sat . The Chairman of the connni.ttee says th<-?.re l..r.Jiils <:Hl investigation. I notice that nowhere along the J.irH:1 has there been an invitat ion extended to me to go befor·e the cormni.ttee to an sWE:1r the chargE:'S you established a prima facie case for. I understand the procedure. Yow said therc:1 wa s a prima facie case .

Th oi.s , I would Sr?l.'J, corresponds with the question of a pr E!l-.i.Jn-innry h~ ~ar:i.ng i.n c:l cri.rn-i.nc"l. case oncl would indj cat.e the1ne t.uas, on the surFr:1ce, ~HlOtlgh c~td .dE:Hl C ~~ l·.o p ,,. o c E:! e d . 0 n that b a s i s , t. he n i t is r·efer 'rE:~r.l {-_o th e corprn.i. l:I:F.!8, whj ch then (:!Stablishes, I would as s wne~ sirni .l.r.~r to cl i:.r·oi.aJ., the- ) l"est of it . I am a bit cltsappoi.nted l··.he cornrrd.t:t~~c:~ did not . even ask for ony explanations l..r.Jh(.'ltsoev er frorn Hte on t.h.is particular issue .

I looked it up and there were eleven questions oF pri.vil.ege entered into the record this session, probably a record hi.gh, quite frankly. MR . SPEAKER : Or·dein 1 pleaSE!! I ask the hon . Hlr::~rnber just l:o speak to this particular matter . MR. FENWICK : OkrlY . I knotAJ. t-1r . Spc:~ak:H', 1-:hi:lt l:he situation was one tho+ I am not p a rl ~i.CtJla r l. y pr·oud of , olt ld [ ap o] og ize d for ·.

In ] ook ing back t'l l: i:he o !:he r· ques U .on:> o-f pr·j vile ges that 1.uere ra ised , it do<":!s s ee1n t~o rne in oi :he r· i. ns l:anc e :> cHI apo J ogy wa s cons id c-?.r·ed ·to bE! <-.lcceptabl< :!. (n the :~ cr.tse, For L3167 June 17, 1988 Vol XL E:~xampl.e, l:h.?l.t. you rul~:!d on today I there were allegations of improp er spendi.ng on the part. of one of ·the ministers made by the Opposition House Leadc-?.r. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR . FENWICK: Just to surnrnar·-izr.:!, Mr.

SpE: 'akE!r '~ t.uhat I am saying is this Hou se is obviously master or its own de stiny, it can E•stabli sh which ever rules iL wish es. I ju st feel the procedure wa s s eriously fl.r:~tAH ::~rl :-i.n th.:~l ·: I I;J< ,ls not g-.-i .v~Hl an opportunity to speak on my own behc:~lf . rJ!R . SAl RD : Sure you admitted it . MR. FfNWICK: fhe:: ~ s·i .i.:Uc?\1-.:i.on S!.:~E:~HIS l:O me l::o be, in this situation, a reaction c o n s J d e r· ~~ b 1 y d ·i. F f (:! r e n t 1:: h a n t h E! r· e has been in other circumstances s·i.nd .lar, such as r·Jw Gov E:H'rlrfi E!n t House Leader or· thE!

Leader of the Off icial Opposition (Mr. Wells). On !:hat basis I Mr . Speaker· . thE!r e is not much I can do about it, so I wi 11 sit dot~.m . MR . SPEAKER : All those in favour thC::~ motion, pleiit se say SOME HON. MEMBERS : Aye . MR. SPEAI<ER : Those agHi.nst. 1 nay 1 • SOMF.: I·ION. MEMHEI~S : Nay . MR. SPFAKER : of adopU .ng 1 aye ' . It-. ·i.s c,H-r-ied, unani .mousl.y_ MR . LONG: No. 58 R3167

' It is not unanimous. MR. !WEAKER : ·r ask the hon . member to wi thdrat.u as U1e1 1: I~Jds t h (:~ i m p o r 1··. of 1·. h ~~ motjon. 0 0 0 ~III I ND SOR : Mr . ~:;peak HI~, I would J ih ~ to rHver·t:. Lo Re:~pori'.s of Si':Cind'i.ng C o rnrn i t tE:H:~ s . MR . SPEAKER : I arn sotnr·y, thE! hon . the Minj ster of Finance. MR . WINDSOR : 1 would like to table the Financial Statements to Dece mb er 31 , 19 87 for the Prov in ce of Newfound la nd Pooled Pension Funds . Orders of the Day MR. SIMMS : Mr .

Spe ake r, on page 5 of Ord er Pa per you will see on your the bo i:i:o m of 1:he Mol: :i.o n SGci:J .on, Finance Motjons. The last one, nrrrnber' 3, should be:~ J.ocai :C::~d else where on the Ord er Paper, be c au s f:1 i': h r.l i: i. s i~ c t: u a 1 J. y r.1 b :i.l. 1 . You understiHrd the one I am r'Gf(o~rri .ng to, r1r. SpeaiUH', o·i.ll No .. 60. I would like to do first f'HiHl i.ng of th.:~ ·l:.

Mot ion, U 1e hon . the Mi.ni s ter of Finance to 'intro duc e a bill, "An Act To Amend The Financial Admin istration Act, 1973, 11 carried. (Bill No. 60) . 0 n motion , B i .ll No . ( 6 0) r e 1-.l d a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. L3168 June 17, 1988 Vol XL MR. STMMS : We will moue into Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker. On motion, that the Hous~~ r·t~solVE ! itself into Committee of the WholH l:o cons ·i.dt::H' cer·l :.r:dn bills, rJJr. Speaker left the Chair. Committee of the Whole MR . CI ·I()Tf~MAN : Order, plE:~ase! 0 r· d E:~ r 3 , B .i 1 1 1\J o . 2 4 .

The hon . the House LE:~ad<-?.r . MR. SIMMS: Mr. Chairman, just a brief word of explanation wi th re spect to bill No . 14. As the minist er in dicated in second reading, there are a fe1.u il\mendment:s whi.ch r.uill be proposed during Committee stage which, I bel iet)e, member·s opposite tArill be familiar with, and hav e copies of now, I hope . The amendments do not occur until clause 62, then r.1 au s e 9 0 and c J. cll.ll> t-) 18 S . AN liON. MF.:MB ER: Why do we not moue clauses 1 1: h r· o 1.19 h 6 l :i. n cl b J. o c k ? MR . SIMMS: That is what I was going to st,tg gest :, Mr ·.

Chc:d .rrMn, l:h.;~t tJ.Je deal with them in some order . There seems to be agreement , so perhaps Your Honour could ask shall. clauses 1 t :hrorJgh 61 ca rry? and the n call clause 62, in which case the minister can get up and explain his amendment and we can have some debate back and forth. Is that fair? MR . CHAIRMAN : Yes . No. 58 R3168

On 1110 l·:i.on, clauSE:1S 1 thr·ough G 1, carriE:1d. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall clause 62 carry . MR . DOYLE: Mr. Chai.rman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Minister of Transportat-ion. MR. DOYI.F.:: Mr. Chairman, what we are doing her'<->. is making amc·HldntE!nts to clause 62. subsection 4, and c 1 r..1 u s (~ 9 0 , s u b s e c t :i. o n 2 . C l. d 1.1 s E:1 90, of course, is on pag~::1 51 of i·:hco1 bi.ll.. The arncoHldmenL to cl.dusr:! 185, which il' on page 101 of the bi .l.l., IAJi.l.J. t'8tfi Ol )(,' rr'O IO t h"-~ bi .l.l. the provisj ons rE: 1spectj.ng the estdbli.shttt8nt of ~.ht:'l d<:1mer :i.l : pn Jnt system .

When I prE:!Sent-ed the bil1 to thE:1 House b~'lc!< dbOLtl: C1 rnonl .:h r:I<.!JO, lA){~ :.i ndJ cat~::1d at Utett time that the de111eri.t po i.nl : system uJOt .tl.d bG that dropped from this bill and the depar tm ent would undertaking an educat ion al driver campaign , and th"'t postponed, if yo u will, or be and the the cancellation would be for an time. indefinite period of Because of that, we amendments to clause subsection ~. clause subsection 2, and clause which will remove from the the pr ovjsions respecting establishment ()f the detn er'i .l: system . MR.

CHAIRMAN: hi~Ve 62 , 90, 185, bill. the poi.n t ThE:1 ho n . the mc,1nt~)(,1 r For· B u r·g c-~ o Ray d'Fspoir. MR . GIL RfRT : Thank yott, r.l!r ·. Cha ·i.r' HkHl. L31.69 June 17, 19138 Vol. XL When l:h(:1 b.i .l.l v.sa :.; ori.gi.nal1y introd uced there was a provision for· •:1 po:i .nt ;~nd demer:i.i: syste trr in it. We agreed with this, even th ough •.ue had some conc:er·ns abo ut the fact that this was going to be introduced too quickly and we felt a longer education pe!riod was rH>. ed ~~d .

When the minister made his staternE!nt on May 16, I guess, I understood fr·om his stc~ternE :!nt that th(~ po·int dorner·il : system t.uas no!: : goi.ng to bE! deleted but 1.uas going t o b C:! d (~ f co>. r· r· c~ d a n d 'i. n t r· o d u c c~ d a t a later tifTIE!. NOIAJ WE:1 find thE! amendment is going to take the demerit system out. I am very concerned about this. I go back 1·:o s~~ptC::~mi:H;!r 1.913 5 .

The previous minister issued a White p, :~pc:H' on Hw demc,n·j .l: sys t:t~ rn and he put out a press release whi ch s l: .:n· i·.:.; oF r : ' A poi n 1-. s y s ~e m for drivers is inten ded to iden tify i.ho:n~ dr·i.uers t•Jho v -i.oJ.till:t~ l:he traffic ]aiJ.s s on a regular ba sis. Thcilse P"-~ -opl.e, ·t-:hr·ough thei. r· po or driving habits. can be classified i:'l S hi. g h· · r• :i. S k cl r• -i_l) (o~ r S IAJh 0 IAJO U 1. d likely be involved in motor vehicle ClccidE.~nts.' He a1so says: 'To address the problem, eight Ci:Hli!ld:i.an provincc :•s and forty U.S.

States haVE! instituted a systern of point assessment. Po int in dicators consisten t with the severity of the offence are plac ed on the driver's record to mark each conviction. At a predetermined po int level a warning letter is sent to the driver in quest ion advising that :i.f i:he second le vel. of po 'i.nt assessment is reached, driver l.i c;enc:e suspension Clc ti.on u.til1 be taken . The first adv isory letter .i s s en 1: :i. n t: he hope t h •:1 t the dr iver will impro ve his or her rlt'i .v'i.ng hab :i.i:s. tf no :i.mpr·ov e rn E:~ n t is achie ved, licence suspension 1\Jo . 'j 8 R3169

will occur at a second level of point clccumulation. The point system in other provinces is not meant solely as a punishment to the driver but as a tool to improve a driver 1 s ability level where that dr·ivE:~r is hazard to others on the road. 1 1:.0 i'l not a He then goes on, 1 The punitive c:tSpl~Ci".S of SllCh d. !>ysl-.Oifl Cr.Hl C:·1Ct as a rehabilitative device.

Pun:i.:;hnH :!nL for· IJ.i .ol.dL. i.ng Lhe '1-l"i'.lff:ic lCilAI! > is, in many CetSE:1S, (~nough l:o c:lc:~'i'.tc'r' soJne::~one:~ Fr 'OIII comrrdtting t.he san1l~ offE:1nce o1n s:i.1ni.l.ar offE:HlCE:!s <"~ :;c,>c:ond 1·:-i.IIJe. 1 1\lotJJ that ·i.s l::hc:~ i.nil:"i.i."'1 l:hr·usi ·: of the farmer minister 1 s statement, -i_n se:~pb~tnbE:H' 1985.

Tht:!n IAIB f·lnd, this minister came in with his statement on May t:hc:1 16th, and it is interesting that one of the points he made in hls statement was: 1 However, we feel, after c a r· e f u 1 c o n s .i d <-H' a t i a n , t h E:1 s y s b?. rn which has been developed and r·ecormnended for .lmpl.E:'mentat.i.on .i.s too punitive and does not afford drivers adequate warning e~nd opportunity to correct their ways before being suspended. 1 No1~1 ·!-.he pr'E:~c; i.o1.1S nri.ni.sh~r· put i:'l lot of ·lirne into Hds, and I have a not ht'! r· s tc~ i.: (~Hie n 1:: he-'! r·c:1 1~1h i. c h h (~ issut~d on Fc~~bruary 18, 1987 jn IJJ h i c h h C:! s '" y s : 11 T h E! r· E~ d r· t~ rn d n y Vctlid l"easons for implernc-:1nting the new sys'\':c:!rn. ll:. hds bc:~t :!n dPP<'It'enl· : for !;orne tjrn(~ that certain dr·ivc-:1rs v"i.olatE~ tr·affi.c l.i:1tAJS on <'I r·eglll.dt' basis becausr:1 of their poor· dr ·i. ving habi_1 :s.

Th~~y .:1re::1 i.n a hi g h r i s k driver· cat ego r· y and IJJi 11 most likely bE~ 'i.nuol.ved :i.n motor· vehic1e accidents. The point system will .identify those individuals, and the appropr.late action will be taken to reprimand them. All other 1_3170 June 1'/, 1988 Vol XL provinces~ excluding Saskatchewan, now oper~te on a point syste m for drivers.

Therefore, -the ini.ti.ati.ve by the Pr·ovinc e of Newfoundland and Labrador will contd .bui ~~,~ t:o standa rd tzln g highway traffic laws across the Na·l -.-i.on. ' This J. aL~J, i:l s I understand it , is i.Hl i:1 r. c 11 rn 11 1 <:1 1: i o n o F <'11 l. t h r.:o aml~ndrnents that havE:1 bE!E!n mc~dE! to rl·w T r· a FT t c rt c I' s i n c <:! 1. 9 '7 0 . rt.Jrl :hc,1t' <ln .i.n ·J:hi.:; s1:i:ll :e.ment , of co u r s e I the minister say ~ , 1 This uri .l.l.

CO ifH ~ ·i.nl :o efFect :i_n Apr·ll of 1988 . 1 We ll, we, on this side, think the re should be a demer it system ir1 place; we do no t think thi .s pr·o vi.sion should be taken out. Every other province, with t:he exc ep"l:i.on of smskatchei.I.Jan, has a points demerit system . The study has been done_ The government recommended it. Why, all of the sudden, do we now .find it too punj tive. when the rea so n far i.t i.s noi : as a punishment but to rehabilitate the drivers wh o have bad dri .vi.ng hab its?

The previous minister poin te d out only cer ·l~ain dri .vers dre accu mulating those points, so why this (-'J.j .p-fl.op !) 1 t-.ua1:ion not•J? t s '" y 1: o H1 ~~ rrri . n i s t e r• , t h e r e i. s obviously another agenda here that IAJe h. :~v e rl!)i: :HHH l. ts -u: a politica1 consider·at io n?

I!' it l:h~ ~ racl : l:h.:'li: ~O IOt ~ Pf~Opl.t~ hauP. sa id, We do not wan t this; pu ·t:ting i.n Ur.l:> po ·i_nl sysi ::~rn i.s goi .ng to harm us politically in a possibl e elec t:Jon y e~ r; s om< -:! of our good workers are going to lose their l.icenct~? 1 What we have to look at is the fact that this act is going to save lives . The study done by the mini.ster• s depar tment sald the peop1e who are going to be victims No. 58 rn:J.70

of thJs desli'!rVE:! to be~. becausE:~ of Uw l. r· poor· dr i. 1; i ng hi'lb ·i. b; . Tht,~ majority of dr·-.ivers on the r·oads ·in NetAtfouncll( :'lncl ~~XfH:~c t to hat;e pr·otectjon Jil<c~ the r·c~st of Canada. UndE-)1" this act we are gotng to adopt th e National Safety Standard s. We are going to adopt the National Saf ety Standards ln this act, the highway safety s t. a n dar· d s for· t h e r· E:! s t of C a n ad a , yet we are not going to bring in a po int syst em. Th e minister is going to tell me in a few minutE !S th at. he~ is goi.ng ·to have an education system for those drive r·s.

I sa y to the~ ministe r, yo u ca n ha ve the educ ation syste m and the d1:1 merit systeu t. I sr.~y tht:~ demerit system shou ld r emain in thi.s act . tt does not : have to be ir up 1e mented as of July 1.

Th ere should bE: ~ a si .x l:o ~' ti Att -)l, t; ~-- m onU l educati on perio d . rt shou ld be pui: i.n pl.c'lct:~ i.n i:\ y ~-:H 'Ir ' 1 :> t·i.1ne, after· tAle have given ever yone amp] e IJ.tiH'IYi n g d n J <~ v N' y t-·. h i. n g e 1. s e 1-h"' 1'. has to be donE:! to ir np J ement thj s S y S i:C'!Ifl. [f the lfli.n:i .s l :er has SOi fiF.l fr -:l.~ t·s fo r· the pol iti cal ram ifica t·ion s of t hi. s s y s t e:~ m , I s a y to him n OIIJ , d o no ·t tak e ou t t he demer it sys tem, bu1: take twel ve months ·l:o intr ·o du ce this syst em rathe r than one Jnonth or I:JAIO months, dS hE:~ tAlds going to do.

Take the tirne to do i t r· l g h t n OIAI s o 1~. hat p eo p l e .i. n Newfoundland can have the pr ·otection this sy s tern r.uould givE:' them. We were going to rehabi.l:itat.e sornc,~ of those pE:wple with poor driving habits. I realize the minister has o b v i. o u s 1 y h i'-\ d pro b l E:'lil s . T h e a r· d one of the mE:!mb ers say in spea king i:o t:hi.:> whe n l·.he b.i.11 ca rne thr ou gh, th at U re pr oble m w ould be i.n en for·c i.ng i.t.. Tt H-:l sy!ihH n IAl~!> out Jin!;!d in the Wh it~ Paper , in L3l71.

Jun[,~ 1.7, '1.988 \Jol XI .. the press releases, and in the s \:1.1dy t-.hr:~ \:. 11.ta~; donE:' by the officials . I say to the rn·inister the senior officials in his department did the study in conj unc i.:i.on IAri.th the Nc.;!tAtfoundli:Hld Safety Council. They all agreed l.o~Jit-.h 'i.\ ~. 1:11: thf~ ti.IIIE! 1 SO IAlh\j IJ..la S :it withdrat.un? For this reason , Mr . Chairma n, we o n 1:: tli s s .t d e I a r· e g o l n g t o v o 1:: e agai nst the demerit system being taken out of thi.s bi.l l.

We think it sh ould be maint ained, and we think it should be given a ·1o nger· Iea d tt me to be i ntro du ced . I do not think the si'-\fe ty of the people of Newfoundland should l:w put in j E~ o p a r· d y f o r· a n y p o l. i. t. ·i. c <'l l. EHl d , o r· means. The mini ste!r, for some reaso~. now feels his political agenda says that this cannot go i. n , Cl n d I: h a 1.: i s 1.: h e o n 1 y r· r·~ c3. s o n T can SeE:1 r·:lght now tAthy the demN·::lt sysi:f,~rn -i.s nol: b(:dng p1rl : :i.nl ·.:o this Act.

It rAJas t.hr:~re, thE:~ t.-~tork ha s b 1::~ ~Hl do rw , iHl d · i. f ·i. t IAI c'l ~; good enough to be r·ecornmend< ,'d by thi s g ot Jt~t· nm enl ~. two y c~ar·s ago, i.l ·. l.s no good for t he mi niste r to get up in l:h.i.s HotiS!:1 '.:od ay ~n d !:ell rne that the ac tion is too pu niti ve I that the pu nls hrn ent factor · i.s not ther e .

I t i s no t a punish ment fa c tor lAte ,':l. r o t r· y i n g 1: o g e 1: I i. +. i s to sav e t he li ves of Newf ou ndl a ncl ers and to reh abi li ta te people in Ne1A1found lanc:l .toho ar·e com rni ttt ng thos e offences to try and imp rov e l::hei. r dr ivin g reco rd. T. under·stand, fr·orn l:c:J.llc.Lng l:o sorne of the insurance companj es, that .i.f l:hi.s de1rH-?.ri. t systE: ~I'II i.s not put in place there ts going to be a continual inc redse in the insurance policies that all 1\h:~IAirOIItH :Ildnd(~r·s hdVE'! -l:o pi:ly .

Not: thE:~ fE:~W t.-~tho aJ"E:' involved in br't:h'l.i< ·i.ng l:hc:~ li .-HAl, bi.i '(:. t~H:! 901'l( '!Y'dl population of NE:~IAlfound1 and -.is 1\Jo . S 3 R3l71

going to be affected by increases in insurance because of the fact: that those poor drivers are still on the r·oad, th'-'l ones the pr•e vi.ou s minister talked about, those certain dri .v1 ~rs L.tJho C\re going l':o vioJ ate the traffic act, going to have accidents. [f they are going to continue to have accidents, it lrlf::1dr1S thai: c:'ll.l of US ar·c,~ go·i.ng l:o hetve to pC~y thE:. increaSE! in -L n s u r· i:\ n c c,~ r· i:\ l·. r.-:1 s . For· t h t :> r· e a ~H)fl , I s •'fl. y l: o -l: h t~ rrd n is t e r , we s h o u J d r1 o t take the dt)lnt:!d.1 : sysl :e111 OIJ! : of th.i.s ~d .l.l .

Jt should remain there. We ask !:hal : i.i: be JncJ.ucled, wi th H b-'''~J.v(,) mon th introdu cU on per·iod. The tni.ni .ste r· tAICl S nol l:i.sl:tHli .ng ~arlier, so maybe I will say it aga. in. He ·i.s goi .ng to come back and say that he talked to the .i.ns ur·an ce people and they did no 1: give him anything; he talked to the Newfoundland Safety Council and they are prepared to accept his recommendat lo n. I say no, let us keep the demerit system in. Would the min isl':e r ltke to have a few words to say on this? MR. WELLS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Leader· of t!he 0 p p o s i_ h o n . MR .

WELLS: Mr . Cltairmr.tn, the hon. mem bE: \r for Bttr'gf:lo - !lay d • f.sp o·Lr· per·hap:.; does not know how persuasive his speech has br:!el'l. Whi .l.t ~ h:~ was l>Pt~a !dng, I spoke with the bon. the Min iste r of Tr·anspor·l :a1 :.i.on and l:he Governmerti : House leader and they hatJ<~ led 1ne to b~li.evP. i:hr-.ll : the y are prepared to consider eliminating those propo se d amendments so that the bill will remain intact as far as prov islon for the demerit system is L3172 June 17, 1988 Vol XL concerned.

If those amendments now proposed by govermnent, e~mendments 1, 3 I and 4, are eliminated and not p r· o c e e de d t£1:i . 1: h , i: he n t he legislation would remain in tact <ilS f<:lr as l:he abiltl:y of the government to implement a derneri t flOi .nl: sysi :em si .x, t1 Aif~1ve, Or" eighteen months down · the road, if 1'.hc~ govt!r·nmen 1: of the ~ day saw fit. It would no t have the system -i. n p J. '" t: e . T h e 1. ~~ g i. s l. a t. :i. o n tMO u 1 d permit the enactment of r· c \jul. a l:'i .o n s ,,,hJ d1 c C)J .tl.d ·lrnp le111en t. thE:~ syst<->.rn .

On ·tha t basis, I. wou)d hav e no t h'i.ng fur· the t' i:o say t~bo1J t thE! s e points . If the government will a g r· t;H->. to Hlr.:t ~~ , .i. t. i. s not n e c e s s a r• y for me to make a more lengthy speech, but othertJJi.SE;! I 1,1.1ould say, Mr . Chairman, we strongly oppose these parl :i cular' amendments , l, 3, and 4, which would eliminate the ability to im pl ement a demerit point system. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker. MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon. the Minister of T r· a n s p o r· i:_ .:1 t i o n . MR . DOYLE : Ml".

Chatr·rnan, after consultat-.i on 1~1-i. t h the Go tHH' n lflf:! n I·_ H Cl\J s r:' 1 .. f:! cH~ P r I tJJe do not have any difficulty at ,,, 11. , b t:1 c: H 1 1 :; c-~ [ t: h J n k I rn o v ~~ d 1: h c:! first amendment already, I~Li t hd r'dl)f'i ng <Hrtl::! ndrrH:' n I~:; l I 1 I and 4, to those particular Clauses . A s 1·: h l:' Go lJ !'.! r· n rn f:. n L H o 1.1 s E!

L <"lad <-;! r· pointed out to me, it is per·rn:i.:;s·i.vc~ Jc~gi_sl<'l 'l·.Jon anyway and with leaving those amendments in ti:\Ct U·1e govf~t"nlrlent has the ability, whether it is year or two yedrs, or· ten years dOIAirl UH:1 r·oad to implement the demerit point No. 58 R31'72

system. lllle have rnadE:~ the dec:ision not to go w:i.th Lhl-} dt:~UH:H' 'i.l". po:i.nl·. sysh:!lll at thJ.s time, but thE:~re J s c (~ t' '1: d .in l. y no d i. 1-f' ·i. c ul L y f r· o rn 1: h i. ~; ~dele in just 1eclving the abiJity t h t:! r· (~ f o r· g o v c:! t' n rn ('! n t: t: o r:t c t o n i L Cit sorne po·lnt. in the future. So, Mr. Speaker, 1 hdve no d:i.ffi.cul.l:y ud th that at alJ. MR. lONG: Mr . Speaker . MR. CHAIRMAN: The han . the member for St. John 1 s East: . MR. LONG : My understanding then is that the amendmenl~s ar·e not no1JJ before us. They have been withdrawn. MR .

Wf.I..LS : AIIH~ndlnenl:s l, 3, c:lnd 4, only l:h:~ thr·eE:~ tha l~ apply (inaudtb1e) . MR . LONG: R i g h t ' r;\ n cl Ull"! r· 1::~ rH' l"!

C) l: h e r· antendrnents in th:i s packagE:~ wh:i ch hi:lVl-} Lo do w:U:h oLhE:H' IAJor·d i.ng changes j n t:he fixing up of thE! b :i. l J. , a n d h a v ~::~ n o r· l:' f t:! r· c,~ n c 1:~ t-. o ·1·: h r.;! derner·Jt systE:!rn. J would like ·to have e~ fc~w words , Mt·. Chai.r·man, on the moti .on t:hfHl and on the bill, and al so on what has just happened . I mu st sa y I am somewhat amazed at the process sometlmes where we ca n negotiate here in the House to bring forward posi ti ve chang es ·to streng then th e governments own legislative agenrla.

I must g.lve some>. cr~:!dit to the member for Burgeo - Bay d 1 Espo i.r, IJJho has been cle<;\r and consistent on addressing the d~~mer·i t sys l:c,~rn. But I 1.1.1hat '-1173 r o i.-ll l y do not k n 01~1 to make of Jun1:~ l7, l91lll sometimes how the Vol XI .. government, vaJ"ious gover·nmE:~nt l:il:~p,u·l:in!::~nl::; and var·i.ou:; rrdni.stE!r's proceed in bringing for~ard 1 eg h l a L Jon . I Ll'l"i. n k 111 hat·.

IAH ->. h aut-:! w:itnessed with tl1is bjll J.s quitE! <:l fi.c:l~>CI) and rr11 .1sL be COtriTIH:111ted on with respect to the rnanag~~ment of Lhc:! got;c,~r·nmc:!nl ~ 1 s l.f:!g"i.sl.Citivr:1 agenda.

The Minj ster for Municipal Affait"s Ci :Hn~=! foriAJi!lt'cl t,o.d .th l:he bi 1.1 that uJas consistent udth the dir·ection the Department of Transportation had been moving in for thE:1 last nulflbt~r of yei:lr's, Jn accc'!pting representation from the Newfoundland Safc.;!I::IJ Co1~nc.il. and han. mE!mbers in the House, and t,o.wnl·. in a dirc->.ct .:i.on r.:hal: hHd a led: of common sense and based on a lot oF et;i.ch>.ncc->. from ot.hPr jurisdictions and based on thE! n ,,~ e d f o r· a d d t• f:~ s s ·i. n g t h c,, p r· o b 1 C'! rn s of safety on our roads and purri.shrnE=~nl: for· dr·i.ver·s, i:hH IAJhole question of the insur~nce system and hoiAl ·i.l: rt~sponds l:o dr·:i.ver·s IJJho continue to violate laws and dFfl'!CI: oU1r"!I"S IAJho iH'(~ ·.i.n t:hH r'odd and others who an~ auc:l:i.l:ing of ·Lnsur·t:~nce.

Th1,~ tn:i.rri .sl:I:'T' cr:-:trn~::~ foriAJard IAJi.th a proposed plan to introduce the d (:1 n1 rO! r· i 1.: s y s t c-~ rn . A 1: t h E:~ 1·. ·i. rn e IJJ e suppor·ted the initiative ·taken by I~ h l:1 rn .i. n :i. s i~ e:~ t· , a s d i d l:: h (>. o f f i. c .i. if! l Opposition, and were quite surpri .~;c~d that shorl.:ly afLE!t' IJJE! were told differantly from the good offices of the Legislative Council and the good folks who do such hard work for all hon. members of the HouSE!, but ~>.specially for the goVEH'rltn(~nl::, ln drafting very complex pieces of l.E:'gislal· .ion.

Obviously, ln this case, we have a kind of omnibus bill which is m~ybe the largest bill that has been br·ought befor'C:' 1.1 s i. n t I:H' m :; of ~~ h e r11.1 m b ~=! r· o f pH g c,~ s and the number of sections and 1\Jo . 1) 13 lD 173

subsE:~ctions. Then t..ue had a whole set of amendments introduced that would fi.x this bi 11 so !:hat il: t..uould not contain what was perhaps the most important new initiat ive Ln fhe legislation, which was the Lniticltion · of a demerit system.

Now, we gave the beneftt of the doubt to the process there and began to u tld e r· s i".i.HH:I t. h,"t -l: IJ.Jh c''\ 1: Hl~~ gouE:!rmuent LIJi:IS wanting to do was bring forwclrd i~s btlJ and ke~p everyth)ng else in i.he leg j.sJat ion j.nh!lcf: th~t i.i~ I~J<!t~> tH:!t ·H:i·i.ng i:1> do, ruuch of it being housekc·H-:!ping, but l:hal ~ l:he essl!!ni :i•:-iJ. pi.ec~: ~ of l:he biJ.J we were qui tE:! interested in, l:ht ~ pr·opt>SL'lJ. for a deJOer ·i.l: sy~;l :e lll, wouJ d b£:! gutted fr·orn the b:i 11 and the n t1H il 1.1101 .11 d h cliJ e a b .i. 1·. o f legislation which would not have a whole lot left lo debate .

Then, today we see , after · the good offices of the legislative Council had ~one such hard work to fi.x the government's inability to be clear and consistent: and to make a de cis ion i t wo u 1 d s t i c k with o n a political iss ue, namely, the introduction of the demerit system as a new initiat.lve that t..uas obviously drawing a response on both s i.des fro rn pc~op1~ i.n the Province, the government comes in Loday and sa )Js, 'We11, tuaybl::l what : 1..11e have done is decided that the clerner·i .l·. sysl :eJO i.s r:\ good l:hi .ng aftRr all, but we do not thjnk i: hl:'!r'';! i.s a f>r' obl~ ul i.n ·i.nl ·.r·odiJt: :i.ng it in t. he b :i J 1 j n t h f:! way that we hcwe clone. 1 Su T arn j •r:.;t h·y 'i.ng to kee p up w:i th the -· I mean. hon. llletrrber·s and the Ht)IJ!)t ;! l.< ~ad~t· hc:tue had great . fun :in the past, taJk:ing .:1bo1.1t the fJ.i.p -fJ.opp :i.ng of l:h1::1 NDP .

MR. STMMS : (Inaudible). I hoped you would u n d E>.r' s U.\ n d t ~w FH' o c c~~ s s . Y o 1.1 1.3174 June 17, 1988 Vol XL obviously do not understand . MR . l .. ONG: Well, I arn not going to allou.J thE! House LeaciC::H' to inh-;!f'r'upt me, because I am dealing with what I arn say.ing i.s rny unciE~r·s tandl.ng of a very strange process . MR. SIMMS : Y o u <!l r E:~ tAW o n g . MR. LONG: We1J I it may bE! IAJrong, but it my OI~Jrl lltlCI::!t'SI'.i:Hld:i .ng dl'ld ·i.t ·i.s baSf~d on rny exper·ience in SC::'c-=dng L'l sr~~r··i.t'!:; of rnov~:!S by l~hH M-i.n:i.ster of Transportation (Mr.

Doyle), the J;~l:Hsl: of LLJhi .dl i.s I:.IYi.s mor·rdng, in which the House I. eader ::i.s dn-1-.·i.c:i.p;_.,{·. -i.ng i:l l.t-~n9t.hy ciE>.ba'i'.E'! ht=!r·c:! in this House~ on both sides, thC:~ oppos i.l: ·i.on par· L-. i.HS IAIE:~t'e go ·i.ng to oppose a new set of amendments that the Minister of Transportation had leaue to introduce. I mean, the process was already sloppy enough.

At the end of the proCE!SS, 1..110 finally haue the Minister of Transportation getting some guidance and assistance from the House Leader to drop these arn~~ndrnen1 -.s. :3o IAJhat lAIC::~ ar·e 1E!ft. with - maybe the House Leader and HH~ M i n i. s 1: P r· of T r· an s p or t a i· ton , a 1:. sorne point, can speak and clarify, nol.: so much ·l7 or' 1W~n1I:HH'S oLn the House who are participating in i·.h·i.s chdt'adc~, bu 1:: for· l·~hf~ pf~ople out there who are going to be a F F ~~~ c t-. t·'! d by i: h ·i. :; l ~~ g :i. s 1 c:l 1· .. i. o n I IAl h a t.

E:~xac-tly is ·the intE!nt.ion of the go tJ {~ r· nrn~~ n 'o: 0 b I) :i. () 1.1 ~) l_ Y , it cJec.\r c o rnrrr.i. 1: h~~ c1 demerit 1-:ht~~ J.r::~g·.i. s l.d ti.on 1na k Hs this government is l:o l··.hc~~ in·l~r·oduction of a system. What the 'l (~ y 'i. s l i.'l·l·. :i. on doE! s not do is g :i. u E:~ any indication of when and how H1 a 1-. i. s g o i. n g t o lH~ J. n t r· o d u c E~ d . No. 58 R3174

So I;.Je arf~ back t.o ''lh '~ r· f.! we ,~ star·U~d, J guess. MR . GILBERT : Af l:tH' l:he n,, ~x l: elf~ c t::i.on . MR . LONG: Righi: . J a s sume,~ lJJe ar·e back ·to lAJhere !Ale :; tl'H'b'-~d. Go ver·m nent has bei'H l mov J ng in the dir ·ecti on of giving a com rnih uen t: to i.ni -.r oduc~) ~" de m ~ r il syste m and n ow , w e ha ve that ·i.n the le g:i.s1aLi.on. NOI AJ, IJ.Je fin d oursel ves ba ck to a p~i n t where the go vermn enl :i.s sayi.n g i.t. is int rodu cin g an d wi ll pa ss legis lati on H 1at. has a cle wet' lt. system :in it.

This Province ,,~.JiJ.l sec-?., al : some i-.'i.l(l( ,~ , the Jntt ·oduct.ion of a demerit system. MR. LONG: So now IJJE:~ clre hea r·in g t.hdi: al th ough th ese am en dmen ts hav e been 1-.clken away, th8 bill :; l:d y: ; i:l.l> it was wjt h the demedt sy ste m in i 1: anrl tha 1-. doe s not m0cl. n H li.>. 1·. t:h 1~ goV E!J"nrnent hi-ls a cornrnJ ti'IIE:!nt to .. i.rl'l:r·oducc~ tht~ dr,~JflfH'-i.l-. sysl.1·~11l . AN HON. MEMAfR: That is right. MR. ~;TMMS : II : is p< '!r ·moi.ssiv~~ J.e:: 'g'j .~;J.,'\1-.i .on . MR. OOY LF: It is permissiVE: \ JegJslation. MR. WfLL.S : Maybe.;!

LhE:~ lfiE:HnbE!r' 1 s pr·oblE!nJ lJJi .ll. be-?. solved if I assure him that as soon as a new government is elected, it will be done. MR. LONG: So what we legislation government - Ml~. SIMMS : have that .i. s can I 3175 June 17, 1988 p e r·m :iss i. v E:~ alJ.ow the VoJ X I P f~ r· hap~; could be U·1 E! h o 11 . HH~ mb E:1 r 1 s reso]ved because pr·obl('!ITl I tJ.dJ.J. g 'i. IJt~ ~l'i .11 1 l: h 1:~ s c:l w~ c o 1 rnwi. t r11 ~~ 11 1:: 1.~:1 I'H-?. n the new government J s f or·med, we IAJ:i . l.l. d (;! d l. I~J:i. t h t h :~ lrti:ll:. t f:! t' , MR. LONG : You lld. ·11 ·'11 so de al ,~,,i.t ··.h 'i. t.

I appr'E:1ciat.e thE! tntE!F'Ventions by bol :h ol .:het' fl<:tr•i ·.'i.c :!:.; h: ~r· e , b1.1 l: Jl: just confirms, I arn arnaz ed at t.oJhat IAH~ h d V ('! hI'! t' (~1 . ~~ ~~~ d t' €:! 1'1 (!IJ.J b i':l C k !:. 0 a point in IJ.Ihich we havE• cl piecE! of l.r>.gi.sl .al. .:ion IJJh-.i.ch is df=!scr·ibE:!d as permissive so the government can do · one l:hing and .it can also do another. We have a classic case:~ of the,! gov~~r·nrnent deciding, I guess aft E! r cons u 1 tat ion with thE ! goo cl off .i. c ~~ s o f Uw 1.. e g .i. s 1 at i v c.;!

Council, that this legislation does no l.: nHHd to be amended because it IAJas originally drafted i. n e1 lAid y that 1 e. <'1 v (~ s thE! door· IJJ i d e:1 open for the government. My concern essentiaJly, and thi s :-i.s 1~1hy T c1111 sp:~dk:'i.ng i:o th'i.s, <:~ncl the Minister for Transportation (Mr· .

Doyle') llli.~Y not·. -1-·.al<r,, "i.l- . dS a seJ"ious concern or· he may, but: T ,,,o,Jl.d sdy to h·i.tn 1-:h,:lt U.wrE! <.H'e pe:~opJ e out there watching 11-d th .i. n 1: r,~ r• 1,~ s i: 1': h :~ d -i_ t' P c '1: 'i. o n t h c~~ gov ernment is tak in g on the i.ni:ro dll cl :·i.on of a demr.;!ri.'l : $ y stc-:1 111 . At this po int it js abs olutel y unclea r wh at the people of th is Prouinc e can ex pect in the IJ.Jay o-F c;ln evenl :ual. i.r1tr·o duc ti .on of a deme rit syst em . We ar e sa yin g l::hat.

IJJG ar·H pa,$sin g le gisl<Hion that has pr ovis ion for the i.ntrodu cti. on of a demer it sys te m. but there is no indication of how or· wh en th:is governm ent is goin ·g to bring it in. Now we hav e comm it me nts, I guess, by bo th parti es, whoev er is th e governm ent th e n c~xi : ti. me after i~he ne xt elec tion, peopl e can expect tha t. No. 58 R317S

.2 I u.li .ll nb t sa y r;l •~1h o l.e lol : rnOt'fJ exce pt we can al l l ook forward to the ne. xi ~ e l ~ c tion ca rnp ai. gn i.n wh ich there wil l be pr omi ses of t h ~ int ro du c I: io n of a d e rn ~ r:L t syst em to addr ess the issu e of dr·i vers and sa fet y on the roa( Js in this Province . For no w, I Hdn k tt1ls i.s an incre dibly stu pid way fo r the go vern ment to go aboul its own J egisl ative agen da. I do not kn ow i.f then) rJJ.i.ll be any 11o~ ··:i.ce gi .ve n it because like man y other thing s, if there i.s no co ver 'ti\9!:1 of l:hi .s i.n lhe mE-!dia, il :l.s like a tree f r:tll. -j_ n g i. tl t h 0 I~JO 0 d S . 1\l 0 b

C) d y i. s the re , so j t. does not make a noi.s<:~. Dot~s :i.t: r·e,:\J.ly t-~ x ·i.!.>l: l:hat t.he gov ernment has gone abou t j ts bu si .ness .i.n srJc h a •~k~ Y , ·i.f 1: b ~H'f~ ~.s no media r.o verage of it , I do nol~ knor.~J . 81.1"1: T hi.w e c0 rtc1i.n1 y l.ea r·ned a Jess on and it has been made very clea r· Lo me r~h t~i : i:h:i .s govern wen ·l: in so man y wa ys real ly does not know tJJh at it is abo ut.

I arn certa inly, as on e citi zen of this Prov i nee , no c 1 ea rer· l:oda y than I wa s a month ago wh en the awendm ents u.1er e f lr· s t broug ht . in as to what the intent ion s. of the gover nment . are wii: h this pi.e ce of legi slat ion conce rn in g the dern eri t system . MR . SIMMS : Mr . Chairman, just a brief word . MR . CH()fRMAN : T h ~~ han. thE:! Hous E:! L~~ader . MR. !3IMMS : J rnus t havE:! a br·i~~f wor·d, J cannot l.P-1 : Uldl : go by 1~ri.l":ho1.1l: hi.-l.V"i.rl':!J ;:-~. brief word of explanation afforded L 0 i". h e Ull:~ rn tH~ r· r 0 r· s L: . J 0 h n I :; r a s L ( M r· .

L o n g ) . I do no ·t u.l:i sh to be nasty, but the L3176 JunE! 17, 1988 Vol. XI. . Fact l:h; .-~.1 ~ he,~ i:> no br 't ghl ·:er· notAJ t 11 an he was e a r·l i e r on t hi s parti .cul.;:n ' rn<:ll.:t:er · "i.s of J.if.tle consequence . I me an, IJJe a r (:~ a 11 au.Jdre of that and fand.l.icH' 1.u~ith that fact. He need not get up and admit it here in the House.

Look, aJ.l that has transpirE!d hE!rE• :i. s 1·:. h a t 1".: h (~ g o v e t' n rn (;! n t. a n n o u n c e d its position with re s pe:~ct to the ·i.ntr·oducl :.:i.on of l:hc->. rnc ,~ril-. sysl::c:11TI some time ago, and indicated we ••JOUl.cl no 1: bf ~ pr·o cr:H =!ci .Lng J•J.i i··.h I:: he ini:r ·oduction of it at this po:int :i.n l·:·i.Til!'! . (,\It=! sd-i.d L.h.oti:. cl.t :!di"J.y ·t.n oul" stat.E-)I"IIC :1nt- MR. DOYLf : :1 r~-i. n ·i. :; -1": t,~ t' ·i. d l. !3 "1·. d 1". (;! ff!E! n t .. f.IJI?. SIMr.lfS: . . ··- at this point j n ttme.

In dea]jng u.dth t.he lc-:"!gislation, l:ht ,~n. in consu1Lt'll ·.'.i. on IAlit .h l.:he:1 1<'.liJ.J clerks and ourselv~'S, ti ·J(:' posi ti.on . s:i.rnpl.y IJ) i.~ S IJH :! C OI.I}d C"!il":h e r• J.edV('! these clauses in there, lAJhich tJJE!rE! p e rrni . s s ·i.lJ e c l i:l usE' ! s , or· IAH ~ co u 1 d remove them . It djd not really rna kE.> clrl y d i. F fer · E?.rl c e lH-:"! c au s (~ at sorne time in the futur·e you could j u s 1~. a lfl e n d t h E:1 l. e g .i s l a t :i o n t o bring it back anyway.

We just took th~~ pos·i.t.:ion at th<.;! t.ilTlE!, well, we will take it out bE!Cause U: t~Ji .ll (-:!lnphi :\S"i.Z('! th<->. f c:~ ct. LIJE:~ ;u ·e not going to proceed with the .i.nl· :r·oduct "i.on of" the dt ~rner·i.t: sysb :11fl at thi s time. That is all. No mot'!~, 1"10 loss, qui .t.(>. s ·.irnpl(~, dtlcf qu :i.l· .e s Lr·,Li.ght· .foriJJar ·d.

In consultation and discussion •~J.i. l.: h L h (:;~ 0 p p o s "i 1: "'i. o n h e r· (~ 1~. o d a y , who have a real. problem JJJi th :it, o t' p r· <:~ s r Wk\ b 1 y h •'1. u t~ d r· n d l. p r· o b l. (~ rn lJ.d th j t I IJJ~~ rcc~aJ.] y had no r·eal d:i .fi-·i .nJli".y J•Jil :h leaving the ,~ clcluses :in there. It is ju st: no-! : d b J. g d t~ i:l l. . T '1:. 9 i. V E! s 1.1 s permis sion to do it sometime "in No . 58 R3176

the future. MR . DOYl.F : Mr. House:~ carue to me 1: h e\'1: . 1.. :~ .:~d E:H', hi . S Ol~ln J C:~ac:l H t' and asked me to do just MR. SIMMS : Pc~J"hr..1p s l·.hE:! hon. membc·H' 1 s sE:~at.rnr.lt.e hds not bl'-! 1-'!rl C QiflfllUI'l'i .ca l'.ing ~>J 'i.l· .h hiru . MR. I. ONG: Y 0 1.1 S 1.: :i. l. l. d 0 n 0 1: !< n OJ.IJ hJ h o:ll. y 0 U cU ' 1.-:' d o j n g IAri t h t h e d E:~ rn E:H' i t s y s t e rn . MR . S1MMS: T se e .

I undc->.rstand your ou.m leader, the member For· Men ihek, as kc~d thE~ Minister of Transportation to do exactly IJ.Jhat to~Je have done, and 'i.n the spirit of co-operation , we have agreed to do · it. That is all, Mr. Chairman. There is noi:ITi .ng t:o get exci.h~d about, or· get a] 1 f] appy and fluffy about. Just reJ.c:1.x and r.al<E! .i.t easy. Go out, taJ k to the ruedi a and critic iLe the no problem. k'i.nd of stuff . gov <~r nrnc ;!rH :. Tha t i.s We can handJe that R 1.1 l: , pl. ~~ a !l ,,~ , cl o nol: d :~l.ay l:he:~ uJOJ"k of t:hc" House u.d t h rna t t e r· s 1 j k e Lh,::~ 1:.

T f E~xpJana t ion, d rl d IAH~ I~Ji. 1 1 :is all. r"'R . Sir'IMONS : Mr· . Chail"rnan . MR . CHAIRMAN: y

I) I~ IA) i.~ 11 [: ~; 0 1111:~ c omE~ and rASk somebody g .. i.tJ(,~ il : 't:o IJOII. Th;;ll: The hon. the rnembe r· for · Fortune HE:~rmi tage . MR. SIMMONS: T h a n k y o u , S i r· . T h (->, p t' o c (-?. s s t h a 1: .i s h a p p e:~ n i n g h en· f~ this morn ing, I believe, is a good L3177 Jun e 1.7, 1988 Vol XL process. We sometimes, as an 0 p p o s i. t i. o n , c r i. l:.i . c i. :z e t h ct +·. tJ.J e a r e not being heard, or thai we do not h ct v e :i. n p 1.1 ·1: .

I b r~ l i r~ IJ e , b a s :i c a 11 y IJ.Jha t hap pe ned this morni ng , is I". he:'\ i~ t ht~ I 10!ad •·H ' of the Op po s i t.i on and th~ gent leman for Bu rgeo - Ba y d 'F.:>po ·i.r· mr.1de r.l po.i .n l·. i'.o t..he gov E:H'nrllent, th e govE:~r·nrnE!nt. con s· i.der· ,,~ d ·iL dncl Lhen 1-.oo!< ·i.ts dec:is:ion . ThE-) govEH'nrnen t 'l.s thC: 'I"e tn llld!U;! i.he (h! C.i.s.i.ons, IAJC,1 here to make sorne sugge stions, IAlhl ,'l'l i:h ,;! r.IJJ(l C Otlll; ! t:Og(, ~\:. hc ;!Y', makes for· bette:H' governrnt:'nt. di"P and i.t Mr· .

Chc:dnuan, l:h al: pt'OC!:'!S S , IAJh'i.ch is a good proc E!SS, should not be c o n f u s e d J;.J'i . l: h a n o t h c~! r· fH' o c E! s s which the gentlE:Hnan for St. John 1 s E a s t. r e f e r-r c.;! d t o . I s a y l: o h ··i. m , instructively, there is a difference bei:IJ.Jeen consultati on resulting in a decision mod if ica~ion , an d the t hing popu larly and proper ly k no wn as fl ip -flopp in g, Ln wh lch y o~ do somethi ng to day, the opposite tornor• r·o\ <J, '"nd ·the fi .r·st th ing on the thi r·d day . Now , th at is rl. i.p-·flop ping :i.tl :i.l:s IOO ~H : vulga r form.

Tha t i s flip-flo ppin g, genrri.nc ~ NO P ·j,nvenl :rO!d •::lnd pr·c~s ~ r ved fl ip- flopp ing . Th at is bei ng on b

t) l: h :d d ~~ s of H1 e .i.::; sue on succes~dve days, but: nevE:1r to rni.nd, b(~CC:~II S I:' by Lhr.;! l:h:i.r·d di.'IIJ IAJf~ IJ.Jjll be back to the fir st po !dl .i.on . Ti'li:li : i.s fl :i.p --f1opp'i.ng . Now, what lAJe are do'.i ng he: ~rE:~, Mr -. C h cd r·rrkll'l , J s no t d L ~~ ll. l. L k e that. It is a good pi"ocess . The ·l·.wn !Jt'Oces:>e:> i~u ·e diffe rent. If th ey ar e happy wi th fl ip-f lopp ing , tha t: is fi.ne, bur. we ar ·e comforta ble ~ith this her e. The de merit syste m, wh en the fo rme r min is ter, th e gentleman fo r St . George's (Mr .

Dawe), pr·opounded the idea, sounded like a good idE!a and since then T got some very favourable feedback from people No. S8 R3177

about thE:! rnet"its of the, ~ dE:~ITlt:.~rit sysl":ew. Gou el"nm ent, in L t~s 1.u;i.sdoH1 , h ~s seen rea son to pu t the t hjn g on ho ld. Wh at t.ue are sct y:i.n g i.s , 1 0n ho ld, maybe . We resp ect your r i. g h t 1-. o r.! o that , b 1.1 t do 1'1 o t thro w j t ou t the window . Do not pu t i t beyond the pai. l. L(-?.a ve :i.n ther-e an y perm js siue le gis lati on wh ich wou ld allo w you to exercise the option at the appro priate point in ti rne. 1 T thi.nk, that is essentially what we are saying.

That. is our· conc~ ~r·n and, I think, to achievE:~ that this rnor·ning, as t.ue h a v ~~ , "i. s i'l yo o d p t' o c H s s . MR . SIMMS : If you 1.\Jou]d excuse rne, I just 11Jd n t L o s •'I y 1:. h i. ~; J s i'tl. rno s L pn~c:i sc->.ly what we wanted to do in Uw fi .r·st pl.dCl o~ . rhi~ t ·i.s 11Jhr:tL I~J(::~ wr:H'e going to do . Then WE-~ said, WE:~l.l., i.F , ... ,(::~ do Hldt, i::i'H~ 0 p p o s j t :ion 1.u·j 1 l I< j c k tJ p a b i g f us s be~C.::IU SH IAle si: 'i. J.J. hi '\Vl o~ -j_(', l·:hHr':~ . So, we said, we will drop it. Thai· . l~ldS i·:hP.

S "llllpl.E:~ llli:1Y . w~~ c.:tn always br-:ing it in at any time in th1->. future . MR . SIMMONS : He comes across as the sensitive man I I< notAl him to be . MR. SIMMS : You hav e given us what we were looking to do, anyway . That is why we have no problem. MR. SIMMONS : I am de:1ljghted w'ith the a n rl T s 1.: d n d F o u r' s q u a r· 1.:~ fl :i.p- -flopping as aJr.uays. MR. CHAIRMAN: process, r'\9d"i.ns 1: The hon. ti·H-'! Tfl(,~lrtbtH' for· Sl:. John' ~; fast. MR . 1.01\JC : I. 3] 7 8 June 17, 1988 Vol XL Perhaps I could have ano ·thE:H' wo1~d on l:h :i.s jt1st i:o be c'l. c::>rH' on IAlhat is happening.

The House l..c->.adi::1r ·i: '~' l. k s a b o u t i: h ~~ ~J D P 1.: i:~ k ·.i n g u p t: h e time of the House, delaying the '1-.:i.lfle of UH=! Housf:~ . Pc-.lrt of my concern in speaking to thi s is how the"! govE:~r·nrnr::1ni: has takE~n up !::he time of the House in going about t h c->. b u s i rH~ s s of t h i . s b i ll. i n t. h e way it has . I think it j s quitE! shocking Hldl:: goV("!rnment: ha s beE!rl unable to have a clea1 ~ agenda on '"' h d 1: i. s i:l v (! t' y :l rn p o r· t a n t~ -L s s u e . If it takes the l<jnd of last rrd .nu l:e r·E:~cogrd . 1-. -Lon of - MR.

DOYLE: aut: YOUt' J.r ~Hd toH ' r~skf :!d i-.hal: I.IJ( "! amend thE ! bill. MR . LONG : Exactl y! r1on·l:hs ago I rny J.er:\d(·:'!t' I and I am sure the Leade r of the O pp o ~d l~·i.C)n , rn. :~dc ~ ·i.l: clc -~ar to i:he mj nis ter tha t if yo u bring j n .;~.nH H idmenb; i:o i:h·i.!; b'i.l.l . l:o drop the de merit system , then you 1.11ilJ hr.we s~ t··i.ous opp osi .ti.on •.uhen we get to Commi tt ee stage or final r·earhng .

So t.uhy, a rnoni ~h <:lgo, the minis te r cou ld not have seen what he has seen i·.his rnor·nin g, that the legisla ti on is p erm issi ve, it did not nee d a ~r~ C::'!nd nr en t s and go v er·n ment could give a comm itme nt to the de 1ne r t t s y s i: ern but no 1: in i: rod u c e it ri gh t aw ay, is be yon d me. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) rules and regulr.1 tions anyway. MR . LON G: Righ t. So it is done. If the r.o vHt'n1 11ent Ho use:O!

Leader· IAJiil nts to try and scor e s orn e cheap _ political pc >·i.nt- .~;, l:h~ )n l~he po.i .ni : r•e mr\\ins tha t on thjs :is su e the questi on is sl ::l.l.l. nol : f11l.J. y t'E~solvc~d; the Minjste r of Transpor tatjon sliJl d1)e :> no t k tl

i) I)J w h ;.~ i~ he ~ I!Jf.lrl¥ .:> t:o do IAl'i.Lh l'.h~~ dlo111ll:H' ·i.-t- : sys ·b~ lll . No. 58 R3178

We might have reso lved the .i.ssue of the passage of this bill, but the essen tia l iss ue has not final ly and jn a complete way been g i v e n r e s o 1 u ·1-. i. o n b y llJ h a t 1: he H o u s e is do ing j n agreeing to pass the bi 11 wi i:hou i: any r.t lll t~ ndwf'ln t s . On moL'i.on, cl.ausc,1 ()/., c;,n·r·:i.Hcl. On rnol. .. ·i.on, cl.eti.ISt:!~i 61 Lhr·ot~gh HO, cat'T:i ed. rJfr~. CIU'll I~MAN : s h "' l. 1. c 1. a 1.1 s C'! 8 l c d r· r· y ? I" h f~ h o ri . 1:. h 1:1 M'.i. n i. s l: c'! r· of Tl'·anspor·tation. MR. DOYI .F.: Arnendrnent number lwo, Mr·.

Chai.rwan. lhC-?. purpost1 of this amendment t.o clause 81, which is on pages 50 and 51 of t.he bill, is to clarify that a person who shows proof of financial responsibility may only obtain his or her driuer 1 s licence provided arrangements have been made to satisfy the judgement outstanding . aga:i nst him or her and the person has cont.:i.nu(:!d 1-.o adhc:1Y'C:1 to thosr~ arrangements . That is there in i: h t~ b :i. l.l. . What tJJc~ t~Ji:l n i: 1: o r:<~dd l.:hi.;!Y'E! 1 IAlhE:! r·e a not: ·i. n subs0.ct-.i.on p E:1 r· S CHI j S d e f.::~ 1.1l . t. de:1emed to ·i.

S 1 be ·( 2) I pur's l~dn L t.l.Jhj ch 1·. [) only cl.u·i .fins tllhdt subsec{ ."i.on about . That. is a] 1 . (:3 ) ·i. s On mo Li. on, arne:! ndtllE:~ n 1: c <H'r· ·i. (:1d . On rnot:ion, clause 81 as amended, Cc:ln·:i .ed. On motion, clauses 82 through 190, carr"i.ed. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall clause 191 carry? L31'79 June 17, 1988 Vol XL MR. DOYLE: The amendment to clause 191 is jus!: consr.~quc.;!nti.c'll. to ·Ute enactment of BiJJ No. 55, 11

An Act To T.ncorpor·ah:1 The"! Ci.t:y Of Mount Pearl. 11 As we knoiAJ, IAJe ar·e going i: o h r:1 v t~ c'l C i. 1: y o f M o u n l:: P (~ d r l , s o that must be put in there. St. John 1 s is aJre:1ady ITIE:Hlt'ionE~d "in IJw b:i.ll Jn d .atn;e 190, and U1 r.:! Cj ty of Corner· f:ltnook j n cJ.auS E! l 9 1 . :; o I h 1:'! .:;t n1 H n cl rn H n l: U; COI'lSE:!qUE!I'I'l::ii'l] '1:".0 thE:~ E:~l'li'lC t iTl(:!J'l[ :: of rl:i.ll. 1\Jo. r;r; For· t-:hu c·.i.·i:y or Mounr : Pr:1arl . On motion, amendment carried . On ntot:i.on, cl<HISI;! 191. as c:<ttn(~ndc ;!d, carried. On motion, clauses 192 through 212, carr·ied. MR. CHAIRMAN: ShalJ the

Schedule carry? The hon. the Minister of Tr·anspor·tal:::i .on . MR. DOYLE: There is an amendm ent to th e Sc he dul e of Fi .ru ~s .~i :t. ac h e d to the bill, wh ich would be amendment No. () . The ptlr' pO S (:'! of i:t H:'! arnt;!ndtn ent is to giu e eff ect t o the increase ·i.l'l i:ht :'! r·inl :'!:) Fo r· IJi.oJ. .~ I:i.ons of i:he prov isions of th e bi ll. These · i. n c r· t:1 '-" s 1::~ ~; I1H'! r' ~~ '" n no u n c I"! d d u r :i n g the budgetary process. On rnoU .on, arnE~ndiiJCc'nt, carT.lr:1d. On motion, schedule:1 a"' ·' amendr:H:I, carried.

Motion, that the Commit tee r·eport having p~ssed the bill with amendment, carried. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Chairman, we wi l J. moue on now 1\Jo . 58 R31'79

t:o Order .lJ., BiJ. J. No. 2, whjch was adjour·m~c :l last clay on Cl..::t iJ:H:'! 19, as I recalJ . ThHre are hvo cl.aus:.:~s left: whi .ch tH :HH I l:o be carried. It is the one on pd vate sr.hools. Wt ~ IJ.HH'e i.n Counrl :i.l.: l'.l -:'!1·~ an d we went ~s far as Clause 19. Ther ·e cH 'e b 4IO cla us es left- .. so you hava to call Clause 19 to get back on the -track. MR . CHATRMAN : Bill No. 2, ''An Act Respecting The Regulatton Of Private Training Institutions." Sha]J. Clause (19) carry? MR. LONG : Mr·. Chcd rman. MR. CHATRM()N: The hon. t ht~ member for· St. John's t:: as 1-.• MR.

LONC : J IAlould ]:ike to speak to Clause (19) bt1f"or·e IAH:! <li .sp1:!nse l41:i.l:h l:.h ·i.!; bi] J, becauSE:! ther·e ar·e a number· of :i.mpor·i:ant dnd ou ·l:s 1·_,:-lnl:l"i.ng Jssues, that is to sc1y, issUE:!S w h i. r: h h d IJ c.:: no l: b t·'! e n s (:1 r· J o u s l y addressed by the minister . The J.ast day, before we adj our11ed, l:her e wer~ ~ a numb er of po ·i.nl :s be j ng made . In particular, the rni n is t e r was no t i. n h is p 1 ace a 1-: the time .

The member for Port de Graue raised l~he issue of students attending private institutions who are unabl e to receive a consistent and clear directive from the ofFlces of the Unempl.oyutent Insurance Commission about their status as claimants of UI . I do not : kno1.u :if !:he m:i .ni .sl :er· i.s completely unaware of this pr·obl.em, but ~ t.hi .s ts ;;1 pr·obl1~m that I hau a had E:!Xperience wj th th.i.s y ~

o) r:\r , .:~nd l:ht ~ IIH· )tnb er· fo r• Por •i: dE-J Grave ta ll< ed about the nurn erou g 1.11.80 .T u rH-:'! 1. 7 , 1. 9 a a Vol XI . students he has been dealing 141 i. t:h. (l 1. !:he 'i:oi.uu,~, thH GoutH'nment House l.eader gave an u~dertaking l:o conunurl'i.ca-Le Lo 1-.1-w 1n-i.n:i.stf:H' l:he spir·i t of the speeches that wer'f:1 bl:~ "i.ng rnadc,~, and !-.hat -L s !:hal: in introducing this bill and a11owing for· 1:: h c:! r· t:1 g 1.11. ,,. '1:. :i. on of p r· "i. v <:'.1 r. (~ institutions, there is a lot morE! govcH·nmf?.rd : nef~ds i~o be doi.ng "in addressing the si tuation of young pc;!opl.l;! t.uho arf~ ~:r·y ing to f:inance their way through these schools clnd Facing incredibly high costs of tuition and room and board, especially people who have to come in to, in this case, the City of S l: .

J o h n ' s f r· o tn a c r· o s s t h C:1 Province. The min"ister may or may not be r:IIAJa r· C:1 , or· rna y no t: · h a tJ e a n y sympathy wjth the djfficuJty that y o 11 n g p f~ o pl. t:! f :-i. n d i-. h f~ rn s t:! 1. v e s ·i. n when they are not able to have clt:C:I~!;S l:o publ.it:l.y funded vocatj onal p1n013r'ams :in t.hE~ coll.t-:191)!> ;;,nd Lhdl-.· "is, ·J.n p<H't, what I want to a]so address in s p e ;~ k ·i. n g L o L h 1:'! b :i.

J. l t. o d t:-1. y , t. h a ·t. stud~!nts who a1ne, for· whateVE!r' r· C:1.~ s o n , f o r· c c,~ d o r· c h o s F.! !.: o r~ n r· o 1l in a private institution, I 1.o~.1ant i:o corn~~ back t:o i:hi.s UI ques ·tion for a minute here, the experiE:HlCE:1 h a s be (~ n i: h r· o u g h o u 1:: t h .i s l a s 1: y E! ;:u·. that the Unemployment Insurance CornrwLssoi.on clo<~s not have a pol.:Lcy with respect to the eligibility of students attending private institutions.

The Commission readjly admits t h c~ r· (:1 :i. s n o policy and each individual case is decided on its Otllrl m~H·H·.s. lillhat: you haVl:1 are students attending courses here in the ci . t y , ·i. n on~~ c l. c1 s s you rna y have students who are attending school and receiving UIC and others who are attending school <:lnd ~ra declared inelig·i.ble For UIC because they are going to 1\lo. S B R31.80

school. In many cases in the last year, what we have seen is a number of students who have had to quit their courses because they had been declared ineligible. l'-1r. Chairman, the minister may or may not bf~ r\ll~lar·e L:hat thi.s i.:.; <.'I very serjous problem. But it is a p r o b l. e 111 n o 1: u n r t'! l a t e d 1-. o o t: h e r· :in it::ic- 1t.ive s be:ing taken by the 10 i. ni. s !: ~~ r. ni:l.tnf.1l. y, l:o c u l:bH c k pubJ. icly-flmded t.1"a~ .n:i ng cour·ses espr.1c-i.a J.Jy i.n l:h: ~ d .'I:IJ .

Tha1 : ·i.:> wl1 a'l': I anr dt;! a]ing w:ith b~ c au se l:fl•:\1 : i.:> Wh dL lilY I;!XFJI·H ':i.l -:lrll ;c.~ ·i.!;, p(o!opJ.e who are 1ongtirnc-:! res:idents Of' i: h (:.~ C :i.l- .1) (l f' ~·) (: , J () h rJ I !; b IJ (: r:-ll S () pE:!opJ c->. IAlho cornE~ :in fr·orn the () u 1.: s .i. d ·~ . What w0 have is, in t.he BUE:1n·L !'hal -. able to take students are not co1~rsE:1s in clEH'iCr.:l.l., accounl·:ing, or secretarial science, the word processing course that has been cut from the Cabot Institute •. and a numbt·H' of other business administration courses that will no longer· exlst al: thc~1 Cabot .

Institute. they are going to be inv ited to tr y and Find a way through the difficulties any sbJdent fac~~s i.n enr·oJ.l ;.ng at a pr ivat e :institution and judg ing ·!:he ir· own s:i.tuaU .on to dc~ter·mi .n8 whet her or· not they wi 11 be abJ e to to hdnciJ.e school needs. thee! and p r· P s s 1.1 r· •"! s

c) f go .i. n g JTIE:!E:~ting their own l f 1: h c~ y .~ r· e on !: h c-) :i. t'

c) l~lrl ·i. 1: ·i. !; d:lff :i cu] t. e~peciaJ ly if the y hav e r;ouH~ i.r1 from oub;i.cle Sl :. John 1 :;, pay:i ng r~nt. paying hea t and ligh t du ri . ng the lAd . n l-.c~ r· rnon 1: h s , f:i. nd i. ng et 1ough tirue · to perhaps get par·t -!:i.me work and ens r~rc ~ the y ar·e in a situ a·l:ion wh ich allows them to be able to focus on their stud:i es and do their course wor·k p r· o p e r· 1 y a n d t. o n o t b e · c o n s 1.: a n t 1 y preoccupied with survival. L 3 1 81 June 17, 1988 Vol XL What is being asked of the minister here is that he make direct representation to ·the Unemployment .

Insur·dnc~~ Couuniss'ion and call for the Commission to dt->.I~EH'JnirH~ and establ.tsh a c1E:!ar policy with respect to the r->.li.gtb.i.Ji .i:y of studonl:s atb?.nding private institutions for UIC. Hc ,1caus<~ IAlh< :ll-. you hdU< c' -Ln ·t:hl::' absence of a c]~;:~ar· poLicy is c u 1.1 n :; e ll. o r· s i. n i ... he lJ T C of F .i. c e s a l. 1 across the Province giving confl.i.c:l:ing <Hivi.co r'lnd "i.n so1n<~ casHs g:iv::ing con ·FJict.::ing adu-:iCE! to thn sar111::1 pco!t'ScHl.

Sl :udt ;ln l::; iH '!::'! bc ~· i.ng l:old !·.hey c~ ~n go and r·egister for a co ur se and 1Ari. 11. fi.nd H10.~ ·t: th f.'!'i.r· e1t gtbi .li. ty for UIC wilJ no t be jeopardjzed as 1. o n 9 a s U tE:' y t.c ~ t 1 t he c o u n s e 11 o r· s at the UI offices they ar e ready. wil1-Ln g and ~ bl. a to work, like anybody else . And then you have othe r counsellor s 1-.ell .i.ng students who are considering applyihg and enro lling at a private institution, if they do so, they I;.Ji11 j8opardizt~ the .ir' abilit y to be in rec eipt of UIC.

So, wha t we have seen the~ las t niJWber of months is a total lack of i.nuol.vt->.rnent by l:hi .s gov(->.rnment . on this issue. The mem ber for Por· t de Graue (Mr. 1~ f F tH'

d) l~ ~'I J. k ~ d a b o u !·. t h e 1 a r· g e number of st udents he has ass:isted go i.ng i:hrough an app< ·)i.~l$ pr·occ -:'!ss at the UIC office . I tl'd •nk u.Jhat :is j n or-der· hf1re is l:h.~l : !:he ;! rwi.n-i .si:rH ', on br ~half of this government, given the co ntex t o f t h e l. ~~ g :i. s l. 1:'1 L i. o n b c-:t f o r· e u s , a n Act to regulate pr ivate i.nst ·i.l:ul ::i.on s, beg.i.n h> l~r;~kc.-) a more active role in being an advocate for i:hose 1~1ho ar·t:~ :i.n need of support and assistance while attending these schools. No. 58 R3181

I do not know if the minister is lnterested in this ad vice i;ha.t he is receiving now from both opposition parties. but that is something that those of us individual MHA s who have had numerous experiences this year ·in dealing with students i.n this position, that we would beg of the government to play a more active role in approaching the federal authorities and to ca11 for a clear policy so students can know what their position is.

The other thing I would say to the minister by way of general concern at this time with the introduction and the adoption of this legislation is the minister may think he can come in during question period and dismiss quite out of hand, the concerns that have been raised during the last number of week aboqt i:he cutbacks in the public funded community college system. MR. SIMMS: A point of order, Mr. Chairman . MR . CHAIRMAN : The han . the Leader·. MR . SIMMS: Government House I have put up with as much as I can. It is obvious to me that the member for St.

John 1 s East, acting on the instructions of his Leader, has been instructed to filibuster all the legislation he can, speak as often as he can for as long as he can. so that there is nothing progressing in this House. That is what is happening here because what the member is talking about has absolutely nothing to do with the Clause we are dealing with. It deals with regulations. MR. LONG : What is your point of order? L3182 JunE:~ 17, 1988 Vol XL MR .

SIMMS: My po ·lnt of or·der is you are irrelevant in your speech, and ·you iilre 11ot allowed to speak irrelevantly, especially in Comnri .ttee of the Whole where you are supposed to be even more prec ·Lse and more concise with respect to your speaking . The hon. member, as I have said, has one thing in mind, but I can assure htm we are not going to stand for it, if he is going to continue to act this way.

If he wants to make som 0 legi tirnate po ints about legi t:ima te legislation and about specific legislation, let him do it and let other members have an opportunity to speak i.n this debate if they wi s h to . 8 u t if not • do not filibuster, let us get on with the work of the people. That is what this is intended for here in this legislature. MR. BAIRD : Good point, good point! MR. CHAIRMAN : A po ·Lnl of order . The Chairman recognizes himself for a period of time you were swaying from the subject matter and certainly irrelevant. So I ask the hon . member to stay with the subject matter.

The regulation that is this Clause . The han. the member for St. John 1 s East. MR. LONG: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . Yes, Mr. Chairman, I arn quite committed to addressing specifically the Bill in front of us, u.Jhich is

an Act Respecting The Regulation Of Private Training Insl:itutions .. No. 58 R3182

AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) the clause. MR. LONG: Yes, we are speaking towards the enabling Clause, which :is the most significant

section of the Bill which lays out the regulations the Cabinet, the Minister of the Department, the Lieuten ant-Governo r in Cou nc il may make gove rnin g every thin g that has bee n the fo reg oin g in the Bill, all regulatio ns go verning the operations of the pr ivate traini ng insl:i.tutio ns . The Government House Le<:tder· may or may not appreciate that on certain pieces of legisl ation members in this House are going to want to debate l~he important issues of the day as they relate to the government's legislative agenda . If the Government House Leader does not appreci .ate that, that is too bad. MR .

SIMMS : Mr . Chairman . MR . CHAIRMAN : A point of order, the Government House Leader. MR. SIMMS : The hon. the member has understood the process legislature. MR . LONG : not of Right, give me another lecture. MR. SIMMS: hon . YE!t the He does not u n d 1:1 r stand it . Now, we gave hi.m a l.oi:. of leeiJJay the first year, but he h~s been in the House now a COl~ple or years. Surely he should know, when you are debati.ng .i.n Couunit:tee of the Whole, clause by clause, it is quite different from debating t.he principlE:1 of the bill .

That has L3183 June 17, 1988 Vol XL already been done, and accepted by this House. So, if you are going to speak against the principle of the bill, you should have done it in second reading and you are, out of order . That i.s what I am arg1Jing with the Chairman. That cannot be permitted 'i.n Cornrnittee of the Whole, clause by clause debate. It cannot be permi.tted. Now, ·.iF the bon . memb c,1r insis ts on continu ing to filibuster and br eak th e rul ~~s of t.he Hou se, thc->. n the Chair wi 11 have no c hoi c E! but to naJTI!;; ! Uw hon. rnc~rnb E!r r.tnd thE !n he can join hi s buddy. MR.

CHAIRMAN: To that point oF order·, IJ.Jhen the hon. member was allowed to speak again, after the last point of order, I told him to stay relevant to the clause, the subject matter. When the hon. gentleman did rise, he did not utter one sentence that pertained to that particular clause . MR . BAIRD: His time is up now , Mr. Chairman . MR. SIMMS : You can order seat, too, Mr . IJJ'i. S h . MR. CHAIRMAN: him to take Chairman, if his you The hon. gentleman is going to have to stick to that clause, stay 1.1.1i t h 1.: hat c 1 a 1.1 s (:1 and t he s u b j E! c t maL ter thc-?.r·ein. The hon. l::.he member for St .

John's East. MR. LONG : Thank you, Mr. Chairman . Obvi.ously I dm interested in getting the work done, and that 'is No. 58 R3183

what I am addressing myself to, the specific bit wo rk t h a t: is i. n front of all hon . members. · I am do in g my best , Mr . Chairman, to address specifically this clause outl i.ning the regulations v.Jhich L...rill govern the operations of private train in g institutions in the Province.

The Government House Leader will be happy to know that I am just about to conclude my rema rks, but I am not going to allow the opportunity to go by, with thi.s important pie ce of legislation, without reminding the Minister of Career Developm ent and Advanced Studies that in bringing forward the bill that will define the reg ulations govern ing . private institutions, which we are quite pleased to see the government has done in this session of the House, that the re are very many other serious conc erns that remain about the intr oduc tion and the exp ansion of private training institutions in thi.s Province, and we uJill continue, day in and day ou t, to ra ise the concerns about the impact on the publicly-funded vocational and community co lle ge syste m that is being created by the proliferation, wi th the encouragement of this government, of the private trai ning institutions, and the essential direct:ion the government is mov ing in, which is to encourage the privatizat ion of post-secondary institutions and to hell with the students and the difficul ties they face as a result of that.

On motion, carried. clauses 19 through 21, Motion, that the Committee having passed the bill amendment, carried . MR. SIMMS: L3184 June! 17, 1988 report with Vol XL Mr . Chairman, if hon . members arE! listening, I do not intend to proceed with Order 5 untiJ. -the Min:i.ster· of Health (Dr . ColJ.ins) returns. I IAlill proce!ed with Order 6, Bill No . 19, Mr. Chairman. A bill, Hospitals 19) MR . TULK : 11

An Act To Act, 1971. 11 -AmE:~nd (Bill The No. Mr . Chairman, on a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order, the hon. the member for Fogo . MR. TULK : Did I understand gentleman to say that proceed with Order 5 Minister of Health IAJas MR. SIMMS : Yes. MR. TULK : the hon. he would not because the not here? I jus l:. uJiHlt to po i.nt out: to you that The Hospitals Act is the same rn:i. nj _ s ter . MR . SIMMS: Oh, yes. It is just 1 tseJ.f, +:hal- . I want to with the minister. No. 5, dtscuss Motion, that the Cornmi ttee rE!port having passed l-.:he bi_J.]. without amendment, carried. MR. SIMMS : Order No. '7 Bill 25. 11

An Act To Utilities Act. 11 MR. CHAIRMAN: Amend The Public (Bill No. 25) Shall clause 1 carry? MR. WELLS: Mr. Chairman. No. 58 R3184-

MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Leader Opposition. MR . WELLS: Mr. Chairman, maybe minister could tell us needs to be retroactive? MR. CHAIRMAN : of the why the han. this The hon the Minister of Finance . MR. WINDSOR: Gladly! In fact, I dealt that when I introduced the It is somewhat unusual something is retroactive. MR. WELI_S : with bi1l. that That is d.ght. all costs . You avoid it at MR . WINDSOR: I appred ate the concern. In this case, there 'i.s one development going somewhere on the South Coasl. I do not recall the name. I did know it .

There is one small development go ing now by private enterprise and we gave them an undertaking that we would ask that it be retroactive. Obviously, if hon. gentlemen do not want to rna ke it ret ro active, then that is fine. We did give them that undertaking, that we would make it retroactive. I appreciate that re troactivity is not something that any House wi s he s to agree tJJi t h • because that te nds to be imposing something on somebody who did something in good faith when it did not apply. In this case, this applies only to that one development . It is the first, clnd the only one in the Province .

Priva~e enterprise of tha l s i.ze is doing i. t and they were under the understanding that tAJe would ask tl1e House to approve it retroactively. So, it is to benefit them. That is the sole L3185 June 17, 1988 Vol XL purpose . MR. WELLS : If the sole purpose is to benefit one i.ns ti tution, organization, corporation or individual, that should be specifically provided for . There may be merit in it, but it should be specifically provided for rather than mak ing the provision generally retroactive .

You do not know wha t factual circumstances are out there, and really retro active legislation is, in my judgement, to be avoided unless it is totally unal)Oidable. In th i.s case. tJJh ere there is only one body or org anizati.on involv ed, then there could be an exception made for thr.d·.

part i cuJ.ar one r·a ther than blanket retroactivity. AN HON. MEMBER : What is the difference? MR . WELLS: The difference is you do what you are providing you provide for it retroactive effect. MR. CHAIRMAN : not for to k nolA! tAJhen haVE! The han. the Minister of Finance . MR. WINDSOR: Mr . Chairman. I have no argument with the han. gentleman at all. I agree entirely with what he is saying. It cou ld have been done either way. I assur e him that there is only that one development so that, in eff ec t. it is the same thing . I did have the name and somE! notes here.

Tf I find them, I will give you the name and local .::i.o n; l.L ·i.s a sma11 development that is ongoing . MR. WELLS: Mr . Chairman. MR . CHAtRMAN: No. 58 R3185

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. WELLS: That is the only ci rcum sta nce the hon. ministe r k now s of at the mo 1nent. As Fa r as he kno ws the re are n o othe r ci rcum sta nces, an d I acc ept that. Ml~ . TULK : But, therE! couJ d be . MR . WELLS: We do not know with certainty. Th ere could be . Thi s ac t doe s not apply to a public utiljty where the public utility became a public utility on or after March 1, 1987 . What about t~Jhat is going to happen in the future? Any public utility that becomes a public utility at sometime in the future, t hi s wo u 1 d not a p p 1 y .

It is on or after . 1 This Act does not apply to a public utility where the public utility became a public utility on or after March 1, 1987. 1 So not only is it retroactive fr·om March 1, 1987 t.o now for all others which became public utilities during that period , it does not apply to any body · that becomes a public uti.l "il:y in the future . MR. SIMMS : We have given does not. By assurance - MR. TULK: the assurance it giving you that But the legislation says sorne ·thing different. MR. SIMMS : It does not say anything different . MR . WINDSOR: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Ministe~ of Finance.

L3186 June 17, 1988 Vol XL MR . WINDSOR : Th e hon . gentlem an, I might su gg est, is reading this wr cin g. Wha t t his do es is apply that any small pu blic utility that is cre at ed after that time is exe mpt from the Pu~1lt c Utilities Act. That is the purpose of this Act . MR. WELLS: What about 1990? MR. WINDSOR: T.n 1990? MR. WELLS : You are exempting them al l perspectiv ely in the Fu ture , no public utilities? MR . WINDSOR : All small ones less than 1000 kilowatts will be e~empt from thE! Public Utilities Act.

That is the purpose of this exemption, so that these small, private developments do not have to go through al.l of the exhaustive and expensive process of meeting the requirements of the Public UtilitiE!S Act. That is what we arE! doing . retroac l: 'Lui ty stmply pr·ovides that one development - MR . WF.:LLS : Takes it back to that one. MR. WINDSOR : The that - that has been done will not bE! covered by The Public Utilities Act. Al.l in future lAJil] not bE! cover r::1d. MR. WELLS : All under one thousand, in future . I understand that. MR. WINDSOR: All under one thousand in the future.

Tha t is the whole purpose of the amendment . ~ No. S8 R3186

On motion, clauses 1 and 2 carried. Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill tJ.Iithout amendment, carried. MR. SIMMS : Order 8, Bill 24. A bill, 11 An Newfoundland Act, 1975 11 • Act To Amend The And Labrador Hydro ( BJll No. 24-). MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall clause 1 carry? MR . WELLS: Mr . Chairman . MR . CHAI R~1AN : rhe hon. the:! Leader of the Opposition . MR .

WfLL.S : I jusl remind the hon. the m:inister of the comments of the ho n. member for Gander a l the t i.me this was introduced, and I ask the han . minister if he has checked those figures to find out whethE:~r or not the concer·ns expressed by the han. member for Gander were well-founded? MR. WINDSOR : Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Minister of Finance . MR. WINDSOR: I think the hon. gentleman is referring to items we are borrowing for under this. MR. WELLS: Yes . MR.

WINDSOR : Later on that day I gave the hon. genl:lC:~mcHl a l.isi:i.nq, verbal.l.y, of the items, and it would include the developmen 1: at . Parad Lse R:i.ver, L3187 June 17, 1988 Vol XL the woodchip operation at Roddickton, the upgrad -i.ng of the Holyrood Thermal Station, the · $40 million headquarters and Central Control Building, and it includes some transmissions. I think it is around $200 million, which is a standard amount for upgrading and maintenance, capital improvement on transmission facilities across the Province. I did provide a breakdown. MR.

WELLS : The other questio n he raised is what is the point of this Assembly providing an authorization up to a certain limit if, in fact, the Hydro Corporation, with the approval of the Lieutenant --GO\Jflrnor -i.n Counc-i.J., is going to borrow in ex CE!S s of that J.tmit anytJJay? ancl 1·1e referrc->.d to the borrowings· over a period of t.i1ne and that ti: E:~xceE~ded t:h(:' limit. I understood that thE! minister was going to check to see if, in fact, the limits had been excet:~ded i.n prior year·s . That u1as the question . Has that been done? MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Chairman . MR .

CHAIRMAN : The hon. the Minister· of Finance. MR. WINDSOR: No, l:he limits arc~~ not exce(=!dE~d. What happens frorn time to tirnE! is that as debt is paid off, then that gives roorn for the Corporation to borrow additional funding for additional purposes, all. of which is approved by the Board of Directors, approved by Cabinet and tabled in the House of Assembly, and is pr·ovided in thE! statelflents i:abh~d -Ln thE! House of Assembly every year·. So I think there is adequate recognition of what happens, adequate answering to the HollsG'. No. 58 R3187

MR. WELLS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. WELLS: Would the minister consider, at 1 e as t i. n f u 1: u r e i f i: he y i:\ r e s t :ll J. holding that office, when another piece of 1 e g i. s l a i: j, on is n e c e s sa r y spelling out the jndividual items of approval, as he has gi1;en it t:.o the han. member for Gander. Because this amoun ts to really a blank cheque. It is our responsibility to check the expenditures, yet we have no assurance i.n this House that one dollar of that will be spent on the additional thermal unit at Holyrood.

There is no means by which the House can be sure. The authority is blank. So a blank cheque is being signed. Now albeit we recognize that the utility, Hydro, has to answer to the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. But we are nor prepared to give the Lieutenant-Governor in Council a blank cheque either, so we should not be giiJing it to the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro .corporation. Howev~ )r, that 'Alas deba l:ed and opposed on second reading and I do not want to get into that again; I will just ask the minister if he would consider th:i. s j_ n the F1.1 ture . MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Chairman . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hon. the minister of Finance. MR. WINDSOR: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I it. Let me add one That blank cheque is the Public Utilities will consider final point. also given to Board, which L3188 June 17. 1988 Vol XL looks at every expenditure made by the Corporation, as to whether it is necessary, when they are doing rate hearings. We are answerable to the public through that board. as well, so there are really two chc~cks. On motion, clause 1 carried. Motion, that the Cornrni ttee report h c\IJ :i. n g pas sed the b i.ll. lAd. thou t a~endment, carried. MR. SIMMS : Mr·. Cha:Lrrnan, if hon.

ITIE!mber·s opposite are ready, l.I.Je wil.l movE! on l~.o Order 9, Btll No. :1.0. A bill, 11

An Act To Arnr:~ nd ThE! Retail Sales Tax