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May 4,

SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Graham Letto, MHA for Labrador West, substitutes

for Betty Parsley, MHA for Harbour Main.

CHAIR (Dempster):

Substitutions this

morning, we have Mr. Letto sitting in for Ms. Parsley.

Just to

get it out of the way, I'll ask for a motion to adopt the minutes from the

Social Service Committee meeting of May 2.

moved by Ms. Haley.

motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR:

I'll give the minister a

moment to introduce herself, say some opening remarks, and she can introduce the

staff or they can introduce themselves, however you see fit, and we'll go from

there.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Good morning.

Minister Responsible for the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, I'm

pleased to appear before you to discuss this year's Estimates.

Here

with me today are officials of the Corporation: Glenn Goss, Executive Director;

Doug Jackman, Director of Financial Operations; Heather Harding, Director of

Program Delivery; Jenny Bowring, Corporate Communications.

I have

behind me Derek Bennett, the MHA for Lewisporte Twillingate and my

Parliamentary Secretary; Kelly White my Executive Director; and we have with us

Communications, Melony O'Neill.

Our

government understands that safe, stable and affordable housing is fundamental

to the social and economic well-being of individuals, families and our

communities. We also recognize that finding and maintaining a suitable home can

be a daily challenge for some.

response, Budget 2017 has provided

significant investments that enable the Housing Corporation to provide housing

programs and services to assist households and persons with low incomes, persons

with disabilities, persons with complex needs and those who are experiencing

homelessness or are at risk of homelessness.

March 2017, our government released Building Forward, a strategic framework that

will guide priority infrastructure investments throughout Newfoundland and

Labrador over the next five years. Over this period, government will contribute

$86.5 million in funding to the Housing Corporation for the repair, maintenance

and modernization of affordable housing units throughout Newfoundland and

Labrador.

In the

fall of 2016, the province and the federal government announced a two-year,

$48.9 million social infrastructure fund for improved social and affordable

housing in Newfoundland and Labrador. This

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible.)

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Oh, certainly.

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible.)

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

We can also give you the

notes.

MS. ROGERS:

Great information, though.

Thank

you so much.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Okay.

This is

an investment of $34.6 million from the federal government and $14.3 million

from the provincial government.

This

year's investment of $8.2 million in our Home Repair Program will continue to

assist households with low incomes in bringing their homes up to fire and life

families to remain in their homes. About 86 per cent of program recipients are

seniors, and these options enable these individuals to continue living

independently in their own homes close to family and friends.

This

year's budget also provides $10.6 million for the Rent Supplement Program. This

program supports individuals and families with low incomes and individuals with

complex needs by paying the portion of their rent that exceeds 25 per cent of

their net household income directly to their landlord. By partnering with

private landlords, the program enables the lower-income households to avail of

increased housing options. Approximately 54 per cent of rent-subsidized housing

units are occupied by seniors.

Budget 2017

continues the investment of $7.6 million for the Supportive Living Program to

provide grants to non-profit organizations for the provision of services and

supports to address and prevent homelessness. In 2016-'17, the Supportive Living

Program funded 21 non-profit community-based groups to operate 31 projects

throughout the province.

Budget 2017

also continues a $1 million investment in the Provincial Homelessness Fund to

provide funding to non-profit organizations enabling them to provide on-site and

outreach services to promote housing stability and greater self-reliance for

those at risk.

We are

very pleased to announce in Budget 2017

a new Home Energy Savings Program of $5 million over three years to assist

electrically heated households with low incomes improve their energy efficiency

of their homes. This will be of particular importance as these households will

be among the most vulnerable to increased electricity costs when Muskrat Falls

comes online.

Future

electricity rates management is a priority of our government and we have

instructed Nalcor to explore and pursue all options for achieving this. This

program is a first step in a larger process to achieve this objective.

Government continues to make meaningful progress on initiatives identified in

The Way Forward: A Vision for

Sustainability and Growth in Newfoundland and Labrador . One of over 50

initiatives included a review of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing

Corporation's programs to ensure the mandate of the organization reflects

current priorities, and to ensure that programs and services are efficiently and

effectively serving the needs of clients.

Commencing in November 2016, we have undertaken extensive consultations with our

community partners, clients and employees to seek their input into the programs

and services offered by the Housing Corporation. Recommendations stemming from

the review of programs and services have recently been provided to government

and an action plan to address priority areas will be developed by the end of

June 2017.

The

consultations and review of programs and services are also key elements in

informing the development of our provincial housing plan, which will be a focus

in 2017. This plan will address the diverse needs of our residents, paying

particular attention to housing needs and support for the most vulnerable and

those with distinct needs.

I am

also working with my federal, provincial and territorial colleagues to develop a

national housing strategy, which will set a common vision and priority areas to

achieve better housing outcomes for all Canadians. Our provincial housing plan

and our national housing strategy will complement and support each other.

As an

organization, the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation is continually

planning ahead and developing housing initiatives in consultation with community

stakeholders. It is that approach which has enabled us to create the

comprehensive policies and programs that are addressing the complex challenges

associated with providing safe and affordable housing to people with low incomes

and those most at risk of becoming homeless. We are seeing results from our

approach and we will continue to build on our current success.

Thank

you, and I now welcome the opportunity to answer any questions you may have.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Minister.

I'm

going to ask the other Members to introduce themselves before the Clerk calls

the subhead.

MS. PERRY:

Tracey Perry, Fortune Bay

Cape La Hune.

MS. DRODGE:

Megan Drodge, Researcher for

the Official Opposition caucus.

MS. ROGERS:

Gerry Rogers, I work for the

good people of St. John's Centre. Thank you so very much for coming out this

morning; I'm really looking forward to this dialogue.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Susan Williams, Researcher

for the Third Party.

MR. REID:

Scott Reid, St. George's

Humber.

MR. LETTO:

Graham Letto, Labrador West.

MS. HALEY:

Carol Anne Haley, Burin

Grand Bank.

MR. WARR:

Brian Warr, Baie Verte

Green Bay.

CHAIR:

Okay. The first responder

will have 15 minutes and then we will go 10 and 10, and I would just remind folk

to state your name before you speak for the purpose of the Broadcast Centre

downstairs.

First,

we're doing Housing Operations, just one

section but when we flip back, we'll go

subheading by subheading. Hopefully, that will be clear for everyone.

CLERK (Barnes):

1.1.01.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 carry?

Ms.

Perry.

MS. PERRY:

Good morning, everyone. Like

Gerry said, thanks for coming out and answering our questions here this morning.

I'd

like to start: Can I get a copy of the minister's binder?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes, definitely.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. Can we get that

beforehand or ?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

After.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Another

thing: Do you have organizational charts including all of the branches and

divisions with responsibilities for Newfoundland and Labrador Housing as it

stands today?

MR. GOSS:

We did not bring them with us this morning, but we do have them. I can certainly

forward them to you.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. Yes, we would like a

copy of that.

MR. GOSS:

I will make sure we do that.

MS. PERRY:

Thank you so much.

MR. GOSS:

Sure.

MS. PERRY:

How many people are employed

with Newfoundland and Labrador Housing today?

MR. GOSS:

There are 343 right now full-time equivalent positions. We don't have any

seasonal. We've got just a handful, seven I believe, temporary positions, but

there are 343 people with us right now.

MS. PERRY:

So of that 343, plus seven

temps, or that includes seven temps?

MR. GOSS:

No, there are 343 funded positions with our organization right now, including

the seven temps.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

And of

those temporary positions how many of those are 13-weekers?

MR. GOSS:

None.

MS. PERRY:

None?

MR. GOSS:

None.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

How

many positions have been eliminated from Newfoundland and Labrador Housing?

MR. GOSS:

Over the last year do you mean?

MS. PERRY:

Yes, year or two.

MR. GOSS:

Through the attrition plan we've been working on over the last three years, last

year we removed eight positions from the staff complement as a result of

retirements, resignations and that sort of thing. Sorry, and one other; there

was one in Labrador, an engineering technician, which we removed. We tried to

fill it for four years; we just couldn't entice anybody to take the position.

We had

one individual who ended up moving out of the province and we haven't been able

to fill it since, so we didn't see any reason to save the funding for any other

reason. We just do the work for engineering through our department now in St.

John's.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Can we

have the specific title of the positions that were eliminated?

MR. GOSS:

Eliminated, yes, if you'll just give me one minute.

As I

said, there was a safety officer, which is a management position, out of our

head office; records clerk in head office, that was an excluded position,

non-bargaining, non-management; and we had six union positions; a collections

officer that works out of our Marystown office; a property appraiser that works

out of St. John's office; three clerks, one in St. John's, one in Gander, one in

Corner Brook; and a maintenance scheduler which works out of our maintenance

department in St. John's.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Do you

have any vacancies currently?

MR. GOSS:

Yes, we do. We've got nine currently right now; some of which are in various

stages of being backfilled. Some are still under review within the department as

to whether or not they're going to come forward with a request to staff.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

When

the positions were eliminated, the position control number, was that eliminated

as well?

MR. GOSS:

Yes.

MS. PERRY:

It was. So new hires will be

assigned a new PCN?

MR. GOSS:

Yes.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Has

Housing been given a budget reduction target for this year for future years for

budget reduction?

MR. GOSS:

Doug, you might want to speak.

MR. JACKMAN:

Excuse me, with respect to

attrition, the attrition line?

MS. PERRY:

Yes, with respect to

staffing overall budget.

MR. JACKMAN:

No, just going into the

'17-'18 fiscal year.

MS. PERRY:

Your overall budget for

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing this year, do you anticipate it will be cut

this year, next year have you been given any targets to reach to reduce your

budget?

MR. JACKMAN:

No, the only target that

goes beyond the 2017-'18 year for now, from a forecasting perspective, would be

the year four of the attrition plan.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

So now

I'm moving over into the actual headings. What is the total number of housing

units currently?

MR. GOSS:

Right now, the Housing

Corporation administers 5,599 units. We have an additional 1,757, I believe it

is, Heather, that are rent supplement units.

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible.)

MR. GOSS:

Yes, 5,599 public housing units across the province, and 1,757 rent supplement

units currently.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

What

percentage of program recipients are seniors?

MR. GOSS:

I guess it would depend on the program, I would assume. I don't have the

particular details on the breakdown, the demographic for each particular

program, but if there's anything in particular you'd like

MS. PERRY:

Could we get an estimate on

how many of your housing units are for seniors, and how many of your rent

supplements are for seniors?

MR. GOSS:

I could certainly get that for you.

MS. PERRY:

Okay, thank you.

MR. GOSS:

Yes, I will.

MS. PERRY:

Are there any vacant units

right now?

MR. GOSS:

Typically, there are always vacant units on a rotational basis. As tenants move

out, we move in to ready the unit for occupancy again. So typically, as it

stands right now, we've got in the area of 290 vacant units across the province.

Some of which are what we call major repair vacancies. They require significant

dollars to prepare them, so they're going to take longer to do.

We've

got in the vicinity of 95, that sort of thing. That includes major repair

vacancies. It also includes as you've seen on the news the other day, a couple

got burned down, burnt out fire damaged units. Units that are held for major

redevelopment, where we'll go in and we'll just move people out and redo the

whole building. So we've got those vacant until we get those types of projects

finished.

There's

also, in certain areas, where there's just simply no demand. They're vacant

because there's nobody in the areas to go in them. That makes up that 95 to 100.

The remainder are what we call vacant and available, which are the ones that

continually rotate, and that's in the area of 200 across the province.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Can we

get a list of exactly where these vacant units are?

MR. GOSS:

Each one?

MS. PERRY:

Yes.

MR. GOSS:

It will be a snapshot in time. I might tell you today that there's one on Brophy

Place, by the time tomorrow comes around it's not vacant, but a certain snapshot

in time for sure.

MS. PERRY:

Yes, we appreciate that.

What

are the current wait-list numbers per region?

MR. GOSS:

Per region; again, I don't have it off the top of my head but I do do we have

the wait-list here with us? I do have it. Yes.

currently right now, or as of the date of this note, there were 785 people on

our wait-list: 378 which are in the Avalon Region, which includes St. John's

and, as the name suggests, other areas on the Avalon; Marystown region has just

five; Gander has 85; Grand Falls, 112; Corner Brook, 107; Stephenville, 54; and

Goose Bay, 44 Goose Bay being the whole of Labrador, not just the Goose Bay

area.

MS. PERRY:

Okay, and just backtracking

a little now to the vacant units again. Is there a cost estimate for the repairs

that need to be done on the 95 that you said are major repair vacancies, as well

as any other repairs?

MR. GOSS:

We'll typically spend in the area of $5,000 to $6,000 to $7,000. That includes

labour, materials, new paint, replacing flooring tiles, that sort of thing when

we ready a vacancy. That's a typical number, but, as I say, it will depend on

what our guys find when they go into the unit to do the repairs. If there's more

damage than typical, then obviously the cost is going to rise.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Just

for clarification, you said $5 million to $7 million per year?

MR. GOSS:

Thousand.

MS. PERRY:

$5,000 to $7,000 per unit.

MR. GOSS:

Oh, my gosh, yes.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. I thought you

said okay, $5,000 to $7,000 per unit.

MR. GOSS: If I

did say million, $5 million to $7 million was not right. It's $5,000 to $7,000.

Each time we go in to do a vacancy, it costs in that area to ready it for the

next occupant.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. So that would be the estimated cost per unit.

MR. GOSS: Yeah.

MS. PERRY: How

much do you have budgeted this year to do those repairs?

MR. GOSS: We

have $10.2 million in our maintenance budget annually, and those regular repairs

come out of that $10.2 million.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. And if you were to put a total estimate now for all the repairs

outstanding on the 290 units, what would that number be?

MR. GOSS: I

can't give you that. Some of the major repair vacancies have not even been

looked at for estimate. So I really would be a little bit I'm reluctant to

give you a number because I wouldn't have any faith in it, to be honest with

you.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

The budget documents indicate that

Budget 2017 allocates $10.6 million

for the Rent Supplement Program. Can you tell me how much was allocated last

year in 2016?

MR. GOSS: I'm

sorry, could you repeat that?

MS. PERRY: How

much money was allocated for the Rent Supplement Program last year?

MR. GOSS: We'll

just get that for you.

Doug might be a little bit better to respond.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, the budget for '16-'17 fiscal year, the total program budget for Rent

Supplement was $10.3 million.

CHAIR: Okay.

The budget documents indicate that

Budget 2017 commits $7.6 million to

supportive living. This money goes to 37 non-profits and community-based groups

which operate 51 projects to help individuals with complex needs.

Can you give us a list of specifically which groups are

receiving this funding and how much money is being received per group?

MS. HARDING: I

can't give you the breakdown today, but I can get that information for you. I

can give some examples of where that funding is going.

MS. PERRY: A

few examples today would be great, but we would appreciate the full list.

MS. HARDING:

Sure.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Thank you.

MR. HARDING:

For 2016-17, some of the projects we supported and we're continuing to support

in '17-'18 would be the Labrador West Housing and Homelessness Coalition, Mokami

Status of Women Council, community mental health Initiative in Corner Brook,

Exploits Valley Community Coalition in Grand Falls-Windsor, Regional Action

Committee on Housing in Clarenville, Thrive in St. John's, Stella's Circle in

St. John's, and the Gathering Place.

We have nine housing support workers across the Island and

into Labrador: Carbonear, Marystown, Clarenville, Gander, Grand Falls-Windsor,

Stephenville, Corner Brook, Happy Valley-Goose Bay and Labrador West.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. And do you have the

amount each of those receives?

MS. HARDING:

I don't have it here with me but we can certainly provide it.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Thank

you.

I'm

still good. How much time have I got left?

CHAIR:

Two.

MS. PERRY:

Two minutes.

CHAIR:

And we can come back to you,

of course, right.

MS. PERRY:

Yes.

The

budget documents indicate that Budget

2017 commits $5 million over three years for a new Home Energy Savings

Program. How much does this program cost each year?

MS. HARDING:

The Home Energy Savings Program has been allocated for $1 million this year and

$2 million each year for the next two years.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Budget

documents indicate that Budget 2017

is offering a new Home Energy Efficiency Loan Program which is going to offer

low interest financing. How much does this program cost each year?

MS. HARDING:

This one is allocated for $500,000 this year and I'm not quite sure in the

subsequent years, but that's actually not being delivered by Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing. It's being delivered to the Office of Climate Change. So the

funding will go to them and then through the energy delivers, like Hydro and

Nalcor.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

You

referred to in your opening comments, the National Housing Strategy. Can we get

an update on exactly where that is and when we can expect it to roll out?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes, you can. I will get

an update to you from my FPT staff and forward it over.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Thank

you so much.

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible.)

MS. PERRY:

Oh, sorry. I asked for an

update on the status of the National Housing Strategy

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Okay, yes.

MS. PERRY:

and she's going to get a

note to us.

In the

federal budget there was no mention of money in support of housing either. So do

you anticipate that the federal government will contribute in some way to this

National Housing Strategy?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Well, we are working

with our FPT partners to hopefully get some provincial funding from the federal

government towards the strategy. That is the objective and goal as we move

forward. Of course, it's all dependent on the objectives that we put forward as

a country, as each province and territory comes forward.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

How

much money was generated last year from the sale of vacant land owned by

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing?

MR. JACKMAN:

For clarification, you want to get strictly vacant land or just strictly land?

MS. PERRY:

Land and housing, anything

that's sold.

MR. JACKMAN:

Okay.

MS. PERRY:

Can we get a list of what

you sold as well?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, actually what I do have here is I can give you a listing of the properties

that were sold during the '16-'17 fiscal year.

MS. PERRY:

Yes.

CHAIR:

Ms. Perry, if we could move

now to Ms. Rogers and you can come back if you still have more questions related

to Housing.

MS. PERRY:

I do.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Ms.

Rogers.

MS. ROGERS:

Thank you very much.

I just

want to revisit some of the questions that Tracey had asked just for some

clarification and further follow-up. Also, any lists or information that Tracey

has asked for, I would assume that we would get and vice versa. Thank you very

much.

terms of the potential elimination of positions, is there a target to eliminate

any further this year?

MR. GOSS:

As part of our attrition

plan, it started three years; it's a five-year plan. Typically we're looking at

six positions a year, in the area of $450,000 worth. So sometimes that means six

positions, sometimes it means eight, as it did in the last one. Given the salary

and benefit range, it would be a particular position. Yet the target is 30

positions over a five-year period.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

And

those are the only positions that are targeted for elimination this year?

MR. GOSS:

That's the number that's

targeted but each position that becomes vacant for whatever reason is

scrutinized and reviewed as to whether or not it's required to backfill.

MS. ROGERS:

Right.

That's

above and beyond the attrition plan?

MR. GOSS:

I'm sorry?

MS. ROGERS:

Is that above and beyond the

attrition plan as well?

MR. GOSS:

That's a regular routine.

When we get vacancies, they're always scrutinized

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

MR. GOSS:

but we don't eliminate

them simply for the sake of eliminating. We have the attrition plan, which we're

sticking to, and we're not looking to eliminate any others.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, great.

MR. GOSS:

If that's what the question

was, yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Thank you.

The

home energy savings plan, it's only for people who are using electric heat? And

how will it be rolled out?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

That particular program

right now that Newfoundland and Labrador Housing is putting forward is for

individuals who are using electricity. We do recognize there is a need for

individuals who use other sources and in the review we are analyzing that.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

So it's

$5 million for this year?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

It's $5 million over

three years.

MS. ROGERS:

Over three years. And how

will it be rolled out? We know that in a number of the programs that we've had,

people have to apply; oftentimes, they're oversubscribed and they're used up

pretty quickly because I guess the need is so great. How will this one work?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

It's an

application-based program.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

It will be rolled out

similar to all other programs at Newfoundland and Labrador Housing.

MS. ROGERS:

And has that started

already, for this program?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

July 4.

MS. ROGERS:

So July 4, people will be

able to apply.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Do you have any expectations

of what the applications will be how much the demand might be for the first

year?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

As I indicated in my

preamble, the purpose is to help mitigate the cost of the electricity rates

which we anticipate rising with Muskrat Falls. Prediction: No, we cannot

predict. It will be analyzed and as we roll it out, we'll address the demand

with any new program we put in place, somewhat of a pilot, to determine if need

is less or more as we move forward.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

The

eligibility criteria, has that been established yet?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Low-income individuals,

$32,500, as with all Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation programs.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes. What would the

percentage for instance, $32,500, is it based on their consumption or is there

a block of funding that somebody applies for? How will that roll out?

MS. HARDING:

You will have to have used 15,000 kilowatts of energy in the previous year and

that can be provided by your energy supplier.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

And how

much will the rebates or the amount ?

MS. HARDING:

It's $5,000 for energy efficiency upgrades.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

So then

the home energy savings program, it's not a per annum relief. This is for making

your house more energy

MS. HARDING:

Correct.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, so it's conservation.

So we

no longer have any kind of rebate for energy use, do we?

MS. HARDING:

Not with this program.

MS. ROGERS:

Is there another program

with that? We know that we lost that.

MR. GOSS:

We don't have an energy rebate program. I'm sure the utility company runs one,

but we don't.

MS. ROGERS:

So this is a one time

right, okay.

Thank

you very much.

The

provincial housing strategy, will that go beyond just our social housing

program? Is it going to be a provincial housing strategy that looks at the issue

of housing in a comprehensive manner, beyond just the provision of social

housing units or rent supplements, but looking specifically at the future,

current in terms of the housing needs of the people of the province?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Right now, it will be

based on the mandate of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation.

MS. ROGERS:

So just that; not going

beyond that. Okay, thank you.

there any plan to look beyond just the mandate of Newfoundland and Labrador

Housing in terms of a provincial housing policy?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

For the Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing Corporation, no.

MS. ROGERS:

No, for the province.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

I can't answer that

question right now. What I can say is that we are into the analysis; of course

as you know, we just did extensive consultations on all our programs.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

So that will lend into

this, along with the federal plan. So we will work together with our FPT

partners to develop; however, the plan for Newfoundland and Labrador will be

that for Newfoundland and Labrador. So as we address the mandate of the

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation if additional factors come forward

that need addressing, we will then address them with government.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, thank you very much.

I may

have missed it, Minister, in your initial address. We note the rent supplements

for '16-'17 were $10.3 million. What are they for '17-'18?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH: $ 10.6

million.

MS. ROGERS:

$10.6 million, so a little

increase there.

As you

know, I'm constantly getting calls and demands, as most of us are, for the

needs, particularly for seniors. I know how difficult it is with the housing

stock that we have to house single people.

So is

there any plan at all to look at using some of our larger units in different

ways to try and address the issue of individuals looking for housing options?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

So the rent supplement

program is under review also, and we have presented our recommendations to

government. We will be releasing the document, the probative plan, the end of

June. Rent supplements will be included in that release.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. I guess what I'm

asking is specifically about some of our larger units in Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing, again, because there's less of a demand for multi-bedroom

units. Is there any plan afoot to look at any kind of home share or other way of

using that?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

So that need has been

identified.

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

At the end of June, after government analyzes our recommendations, we will put

out what we are going to do as a corporation on a go-forward basis to address

this need.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, great, and then that

document will be released?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, great.

Thank

you very much.

That

question has been answered. Is there a plan for the sale of any properties or

land in '17-'18?

MR. JACKMAN:

No, there are no initiatives for any plans.

The

only thing I will say is, historically, each and every year if there are any

long-term vacant rental properties throughout the province where there's no

wait-list and if they're not in really good condition, we do consider selling

those, but these typically are in the smallest of communities.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, but at this point

there are no targeted properties.

MR. JACKMAN:

No, nothing, no.

MS. ROGERS:

I'm going to run out of time

soon.

The 200

properties that are vacant, the ones that require extra maintenance and

renovations: what is the waiting list like in terms of getting that work done?

What are we looking at?

MR. GOSS:

In terms of turnaround time you mean?

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah.

MR. GOSS:

Again, it varies. Depending

on the number of vacancies we have at a given time for our workforce and the

cost per vacancy, which will dictate how long it's going to take.

I can't

really answer your question in terms of how long it takes all the vacancies but

typically you could be a couple of months while we're getting it ready,

depending on the volume we have.

I will

say, though, our vacancy rate within the Housing Corporation is better than the

vacancy rate that CMHC has put out for October 2016. Our vacancy rate is lower

than the general population. So we're pretty proud of the fact that we keep up

as best we can and ahead of the game, really.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Okay.

Ms. Perry.

MS. PERRY:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to pick up where I left off, but Gerry already

asked the question. So there are no sales planned for this year as part of any

type of a revenue generation strategy?

MR. JACKMAN:

No, there's nothing planned. And where we left off was I indicated I was going

to we did sell five vacant, social housing units during the '16-'17 fiscal

year.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: I

can list these off for you.

MS. PERRY: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: I

don't have the financial figures for each one but I can list off the address and

the community: 46 Fairview Avenue, St. Lawrence; 75 Main Road, Noggin Cove; 8

Battery Road, Tilton; 149 Main Street, Beaumont; and Crocker's Hill, Green's

Harbour.

MS. PERRY: Can

you also provide us with the total amount of revenue that you generated from

these sales?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes.

MS. PERRY:

Okay, thank you.

Is there a budget reduction target for next year or within

the next two years, really?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

I just want to just back on the vacancies. We had two group homes we did

put up for sale in the last fiscal year. They were previously used as group

homes. One was in Stephenville and one was in the Grand Bank area.

The Stephenville one, actually the intent was to put it

up for sale but after consultation with a community group, we realized another

use for that building. That building is presently being converted into a type of

services, like Choices for Youth in the Stephenville area.

The second building did go up for sale. The tender came in

way below market value, so we withheld on the building.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing continue to check out with community

groups to see if there's another need and see if those groups, if we pass over

the property to them, that they have the capacity to maintain operations which

is key. Passing a property over to a group and they don't have the funding to

maintain operations or capacity to generate operations in community becomes an

issue.

MS. PERRY: Yes.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

However, we're quite proud in Stephenville and what we're doing.

The vacant units that were listed here for sale today are

units that we had no demand for. They were sitting idle. The cost to just leave

buildings idle, a government asset, is not warranted.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

So with respect to my question about budget reduction

targets for '17-'18 and '18-'19, are there any specific budget target

reductions?

MR. JACKMAN:

Like I alluded to earlier of course, fiscal '17-'18, and also carrying on into

'18-'19, there is the attrition target and that dollar amount in terms of the

forecast is still at as Glenn alluded to earlier, it is approximately $450,000

per year.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Can you provide us with any additional information on the

review of programs and services? For example, who did the review?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Extensive consultations were done throughout Newfoundland and Labrador. I,

myself, attended five. My staff went in and they interviewed clients. They

interviewed stakeholders and community groups. There was extensive data

collected, analyzed, and then recommendations were put forward to government.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. So it was done internally within your department? No external consultants

were engaged?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

No, we did not pay for extremal consultants to do the review. We used our

internal staff and community.

MS. PERRY:

Pardon?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

And community.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. When were the recommendations given to you, as minister?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

The recommendations were collected as we did the consultations and analyzed.

An extensive amount of data was collected and I have analyzed the

recommendations myself with the CEO over the last this is May. Over the last

five to six weeks we have been going through the recommendations.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. And when will the recommendations be made public?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

June 30.

MS. PERRY: June

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Thirtieth.

MS. PERRY:

Thirtieth, okay.

Moving on then into 1.1.01; can you give an overview of why

the grant to Housing has increased by $18.8 million, from $21 million in the

2016-17 budget up to $40,134,600 million this year?

MR. JACKMAN:

As you alluded to, of course, the budget for the 2016-17 fiscal year was

$21,333,500. The primary driver of that increase results from an add back of

one-time items for 2016-17. So there was the return of surplus regarding

historical capital grants of $15,160,000; Southlands land sale, $5 million; sale

of vacant rental units, $590,500. So if you add up those three, one-time items

that gives you a total of $20,750,500. So that's the primary driver of the

increase.

terms of budget changes: of course, as already been discussed, the Home Energy

Savings Program, $1 million; the Home Energy Efficiency Loan Program, of course

which will be delivered by the Office of Climate Change, $500,000;

discontinuation of the Residential Energy Efficiency Program, that's a decrease

of $1.7 million.

We also

had a reduction in the home repair grants of $1.3 million; however, that funding

is going to be fully restored through the federal-provincial social

infrastructure funding, and the salaries and benefits attrition, $449,400. I've

said $450,000, I was rounding earlier. And, of course, when you add up all those

items , you arrive at the 2017-2018 budget of $40,134,600.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Last year in Estimates it was indicated that Housing had

$15 million in its bank account which it would be using in place of funding. Is

that money all used up now?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, as I alluded to, that was a one-time transfer of funds. That dates back to

historical investments made by the province in Newfoundland and Labrador Housing

Corporation, the rollout of social housing stock into developed land assemblies

historically. So those funds have been exhausted.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Can you provide a detailed breakdown of the programs which

are supported by this grant and how much is allocated for each program?

MR. JACKMAN:

Okay. In terms of our programs or some may refer to these as expenditure lines

as well. In terms of the '17-'18 budget, public rental housing, $46.6 million;

Partner-Managed Housing, $7.8 million; Rent Supplement, approximately $10.7

million I am rounding here a little Home Repair Program, $8.4 million; the

Home Energy Savings Program, $1 million. The home energy efficiency loan

program, which will be delivered by the Office of Climate Change, I'll disclose

that here as $500,000, but ultimately that will not be reflected on the

financial statements of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, but for

budget purposes I'll disclose it here.

Affordable housing, $5.4 million that's a part of the

five-year investment, Affordable Housing Agreement, that dates back to 2014

Provincial Homelessness Fund, $1 million; Supportive Living Community

Partnership, approximately $7.8 million; our administration, which primarily

consists of salaries and benefits and other administration costs of

approximately $21.1 million. That includes our entire workforce, except for our

field workers that perform maintenance and renovations.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Can you

provide a breakdown of which programs received funding for the last fiscal year

and how much for each?

MR. JACKMAN:

Public rental housing, $46.8 million; Partner-Managed Housing, $8.2 million;

Rent Supplement, $10.3 million; Home Repair Program, $8.2 million; the

Residential Energy Efficiency Program, $1.7 million; Affordable housing, $5.4

million; Provincial Homelessness Fund, $1 million; the Supportive Living

Community Partnership, $7.8 million; and the administration, approximately $21.5

million.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Ms. Perry

MS. PERRY:

I'm out of time again?

CHAIR:

Time has run out on the

clock again.

I'll

move to Ms. Rogers but if you still have Housing questions, we can come back.

MS. PERRY:

I do, okay.

CHAIR:

Ms. Rogers.

MS. ROGERS:

We will get a list of all

those facts and figures.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, the document I'm reading will be included in your binder.

MS. ROGERS:

Great, perfect. Thank you

very much.

terms of the wait-list, can we get a breakdown of the types of requests on the

wait-list, age groups, unit size and region? I don't have to have it right now

but if we can get that.

MR. GOSS:

Wait-list of Housing applicants you mean?

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

MS. GOSS:

And you're looking for basically the demographic information?

MS. ROGERS:

That's right.

MR. GOSS:

Yes, I can get you some information and send it to all of you.

MS. ROGERS:

Perfect. Great, thank you

very much.

The

issue of people being cut off from the wait-list at the end of the year, we

still have a lot of folks who aren't even aware of the fact that they have

fallen off the wait-list. Is there anything being planned to address that?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Your point is taken and

that is under review also. I'm very well aware that individuals did not realize

once they applied at the end of the fiscal year, they would have to reapply

again. That did come out in the consultations and we are addressing it.

MS. ROGERS:

Great. Thank you.

Do we

also have stats about how long people are waiting? For instance, if Ms. Smith is

looking for a one-bedroom unit, whether it be a unit or a rent supplement and

she falls off the list and has to reapply, do we have that kind of information?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

I don't think I can get

the details that you are looking for. We do have information of the wait-list

and the individuals, but previous practice was, in fact, that if you did not

reapply, your name was not kept there.

On a

go-forward basis, hopefully we'll be able to maintain that type of data. But to

be able to identify the exact individual who applied often what happens a

significant amount of time, when we go back to an individual, if they're on a

wait-list, they have found accommodations themselves. They've moved in with a

partner or they have found accommodations elsewhere.

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah. Or they're living in

poverty because where they are, their rent is so high. I mean that's also the

case that we're seeing.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

We use community

organizations and partners to identify individuals as such.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

Because

it would be really interesting to know really what are the wait times like, not

just simply the numbers but what's the duration for people waiting.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yeah. Again, I recognize

your question and we do work with groups like End Homelessness St. John's so we

can identify these gaps that are in the system, and that was one of the factors

also that came out in the consultations.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

In the

demographics of your wait-list, would we be able to get information as well in

terms of people with disabilities who are needing accessible units? How is that

right now in terms of the wait-list for people with disabilities who are looking

for accessible units?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

We will get you the

demographics and what information we can share, we will get that.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

And

then the other thing as well is that we have people who may not specifically

need a fully accessible unit but I know that there are a number of rent

supplements in apartment buildings, particularly in my district, where there are

no elevators. So we have seniors or people with some mobility issues who are

having problems because there are no elevators. I'm just wondering if that has

been something that's been an issue that you've had to deal with.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Individual cases have

been identified where individuals have difficulty with access. Sometimes we have

found that an individual may, in fact, be on a second or third floor where

there's no elevator, they run into a mobility issue and then we are tasked with

finding them a residence at a lower level. It's a challenge at times, I will

admit, but we do work with each individual case to try to meet their needs.

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah. I have every belief

that Housing is doing that, but I'm also aware of the challenges and the demand

and what we have to meet that demand.

We're

going to get a list of the different community organizations that are doing some

of the supportive housing, who are managing some of the units and how many of

those are. What is your sense about that program? How is it working?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Heather.

MS. HARDING:

You are referring to the

Supportive Living Program?

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

MS. HARDING:

That would have been part of

the overall review and so if there are any changes required, it will certainly

come out in the action plan in June, but our sense is that it's working well.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, great. I think it's a

great collaboration.

Maintenance and modernization, we know there are approximately 200 vacant units.

Some may not be renovated for sure this year, if there's been fire and that. Do

you have a sense as to how many of those will come back into available stock or

what's the time frame like for that?

MR. GOSS:

As I alluded to earlier, I probably wasn't as clear as I could have been.

MS. ROGERS:

You were probably really

clear.

MR. GOSS:

Thank you.

There

are essentially, at any given time, in the area of 250 to 300 vacant public

housing units across the province; 200 of those 300, shall we say, are what we

call vacant but available. It's where the previous tenant gives us notice and

moves out. We go in with our workforce, spend $5,000 to $6,000 to $7,000 to make

it available for occupancy, and we'll move people in. That has typically taken

between six and eight weeks, but I don't really like to tie myself to that

number because at any given time it depends on the number of vacancies we get,

will dictate how quickly we can get to them.

So of

those 200, those are continually turning over yearly. We typically have 95, 90

to 100 that are not available for various reasons: major repairs, fires, that

sort of thing.

MS. ROGERS:

The renovations then, the

maintenance for the ones that aren't major, are those done by in-house staff or

is that contracted out?

MR. GOSS:

They are done by in-house staff.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

MR. GOSS:

Ninety per cent of the time it's done by in-house staff.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

MR. GOSS:

Every now and then we will contract out a bundle, due to the fact that there may

be an influx of vacancies at one time that will lead to them being vacant for

too long if we don't contract them out. So we do that periodically as needed.

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah.

I get a

lot of calls in my office of: I need a place, and how come the house on James

Lane has been empty for months? I get a lot of those calls in St. John's Centre,

people watching vacant units and wondering how come they're not back on the

market or filled.

MR. GOSS:

Yeah.

MS. ROGERS:

I know there are various

reasons for that.

MR. GOSS:

And there are. There are various reasons. We get to them when we can. As I said

earlier, we have a better vacancy rate than the private market. We get to them

as quickly as we can. We recognize the fact there are some, but generally that

means we have, again, that increase in the number of vacancies which slows down

our ability to get to them.

I do

recognize your point. We would love to get them occupied within days.

MS. ROGERS:

Sure.

MR. GOSS:

Obviously, in certain

situations that's not possible.

MS. ROGERS:

Are some of the folks from

Choices for Youth still doing some of that work with your staff?

MR. GOSS:

Yes. I believe they are still doing some, yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

Thank

you very much, this is great.

How

many of the rent supplements are currently portable? There was a pilot project

last year or the year before.

MS. HARDING:

Yes, we did a pilot on portability of rent supplements. It's still ongoing. It

took us a little bit of effort to get people who were qualified for it. We went

through about 70 applicants to get 20 who were able to participate in the

project, for various reasons. On occasion the landlord wasn't willing to

participate, the current accommodations weren't up to life safety standards or

the person actually preferred to move from where they were.

Of the

20 that are participating, 18 are still housed where they were originally housed

and two actually have moved on to a higher level of care. So their rent subs

were returned to the bigger pot to be turned to somebody else.

MS. ROGERS:

So if I'm Mrs. Smith and I'm

part of this program, I have a portable rent sub and I'm moving on Mayor Avenue,

but now because of changes in my own health I need the apartment on

Merrymeeting, this already was portable, am I able to take that with me?

MS. HARDING:

In this pilot, yes, that would be the understanding.

MS. ROGERS:

Is there any plan to expand

that program?

MS. HARDING:

That's certainly part of the larger review of the Housing Corporation, and I

would anticipate that there would be something to address that in the action

plan.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, great.

Thank

you very much.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Ms.

Rogers, your time is up.

MS. ROGERS:

It goes too fast.

MS. PERRY:

It does, it goes way too

fast.

CHAIR:

Well, if you guys want to

spend it all on Housing that's good with me.

MS. PERRY:

No, we're going to come back

again.

CHAIR:

Ms. Perry.

MS. PERRY:

Has Housing been directed to

reduce its operating costs?

MR. GOSS:

No, there's no direction to reduce the operating cost. As Doug alluded to a

little earlier, our grant from the provincial government is returned to

historical levels. So there's no

MS. PERRY:

Okay. So there are no

planned cuts then for Housing?

MR. GOSS:

Just the attrition, as I spoke to earlier, but I don't have any there's

nothing I can tell you in terms of anything else other than the fact we have the

attrition plan. That's all I'm aware of.

MS. PERRY:

So no deficit reduction

targets or anything like that?

MS. GOSS:

Not that I'm aware of.

MS. PERRY:

I'm going to jump back a

little bit now to something I never asked in the beginning. When we talked about

the positions that are no longer with Housing, that were gone through attrition,

how much was paid out in severance?

MR. GOSS:

Yeah, we'd have to get that number. I just know they're vacant, and right now I

don't even have the details as to why they're vacant. Some are retirement, some

are resignation or for various reasons.

MS. PERRY:

When we get the list of positions eliminated, can we also get the amount of

severance that was paid out for each?

MS. GOSS:

Sure.

MS. PERRY:

Have any new positions been

created at Newfoundland and Labrador Housing?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

In actual fact, when I

came onboard we noted that we needed an inquiries individual. We were finding

that numerous staff were getting contested with the same question, so I

suggested that we put in place an inquiries individual who had been in place in

the past. We did assign an in-house staff to that particular role. So that

position, the actual description of the position, his job has changed but he was

already an in-house staff individual.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. So there's no

incremental budgetary cost?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

No, there was not. There

was a new position, but

MS. PERRY:

The position was

re-profiled.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Exactly.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. We'll see that in the

org chart?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes, you will.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

The

government is looking for a savings of $41.9 million from agencies. Are you

saying absolutely none of that $41.9 million is expected to come from Housing?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

What we are saying is

that we are analyzing Housing. We've just done a complete review of Housing, and

as we put forth the recommendations we will analyze the need for our staff

in-house and address it then.

Right

now, there are no dollar amounts attached to the analysis. After June 30, we

should be able to provide more information.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. So you don't have any

inclination at this point which programs and areas you're probably going to be

looking at?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

No, because I cannot

project an analysis by government from our recommendations.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

I'm on

my last question. When can we expect all the additional information that you

will be providing based on our questions this morning?

MR. JACKMAN:

Some of the information when I went down sort of line by line with the program

budgets for '17-'18 and '16-'17 fiscal years, that will be included in what you

will receive later today. The other items, I can't speak to each individual one

because some will take longer than others. Some items maybe we can turn around

in a matter of a few days but some may take a little longer, depending on how

much compiling is involved.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. All right.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Ms. Perry, you have some

time on the clock but are you okay now? Before I call that, I want to go to Ms.

Rogers and let her finish her question.

MS. PERRY:

I would be (inaudible) Ms.

Rogers the opportunity to ask more if she has them.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Ms.

Rogers.

MS. ROGERS:

Thank you very much.

The

federal provincial investment and affordable housing, and the Homelessness

Partnering Strategy, if we could get a list, not now, but maybe if we could have

a list of how many units have been created under the agreements: the number

total, the number of accessible units, seniors units and supportive housing

units, if we could get those numbers that would be great.

The

homeownership assistance program, is there any plan to renew that, to look at a

new form of that?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes, that program has

been extensively reviewed under this greater review and the recommendations will

come forth on June 30.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

And do

we know, was that fully subscribed? Was all the money spent?

MS. HARDING:

Over the two years, in the

first year '15-'16, we advanced approximately $1 million, and in '16-'17, so far

we've advanced $716,000. In total, we have supported the purchase of 174 new

homes.

MS. ROGERS:

174 homes?

MS. HARDING:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Great.

Was all

the money used for '15-'16, or is that money that was spanning two years?

MS. HARDING:

That was funding over two

years. We had budgeted $1.25 million for '15-'16, and $1.25 million for '16-'17

as well.

MS. ROGERS:

Are you expecting to be able

to spend oh,'16-'17 is gone. None of that money then was carried over to

'17-'18?

MS. HARDING:

No it wasn't, and the take

up did slow down a little bit in '16-'17 and we suspect it may be because of

changes in the federal guidelines for qualifying for a mortgage.

MS. ROGERS:

Right. Okay.

The

economic situation and yes, okay, thank you very much. That money just was not

used. Okay, thank you very much.

Our

provincial housing plan, housing strategy: Will there be a specific focus as

well on ending homelessness?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

End homelessness is a

priority.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

It will be included. On

a national level, there is discussion at the FPT table also.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

And we've had extensive

discussion with End Homelessness St. John's and Choices for Youth and the

partners. I myself have been out on the ground so I could get a personal feel

for it. So, yes, there is a focus on ending homelessness in Newfoundland and

Labrador.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

What

about a strategy for youth?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

As per my mandate letter

with CSSD, we are working to address the issues and concerns of youth that have

been in our care, and we will also focus on youth through the homelessness

component. We are very well aware, it has come to the forefront and the point in

time recently, that particular exercise has identified the stats. So we are

aware and we will be analyzing more data. We will be focusing on youth along

with the population as a whole.

focus directly on one group, that is not our plan right now, but our plan is to

include youth in the overall plan.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Although we know there

are some very specific issues for youth.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

We do.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, and we will see that

in the report of the review the end of June.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

No, these consultations

that we completed, they will play into the actual plan.

MS. ROGERS:

We're not expecting that the

end of June, it's just

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

No.

MS. ROGERS:

What would be your time

frame for that?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

It's my mandate to move

forward with this. I can't give you a time frame right now because I am working

with FPT partners also. While it is a provincial plan, we want to ensure we are

parallel with the federal plan also.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

I have

no further questions, but I do want to say thank you very, very much. I know you

have perhaps the highest percentage of social housing units and rent subs in the

province in St. John's Centre and a lot of people with great need. I want to say

we are aware of the challenges that Housing faces.

Also,

the staff has been absolutely fantastic. I think we had the ability, through my

office, to speak to almost everybody in Housing. Thank you for your incredible

passionate and compassionate work. Hopefully with the review, it will point to

any resource gaps that might be there and the possibility of filling some of

those resource gaps.

Again,

thank you very much for your work and thank you very much for this morning.

CHAIR:

Ms. Perry, you have nothing

further? Okay.

Shall

1.1.01 carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, subhead 1.1.01 carried.

CHAIR:

Now we'll move back

CLERK:

(Inaudible.)

CHAIR:

Oh, for that section.

Shall

the total carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, total heads, carried.

CHAIR:

Now we'll move back to

Children, Seniors and Social Development.

So now

may be a good time for a five or six minute break, while we do a switch out, to

grab a coffee.

Recess

CHAIR:

Okay, we've downstairs

linked in, so I'll give the floor back over to the minister to introduce her

staff.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Good afternoon or good

morning. It feels like afternoon, isn't that something? It's like we just came

back, we're in the House and it feels like afternoon.

What

I'm going to do here before my comments is I'm going to allow my staff to

individually introduce themselves. I'm going to start here on my left.

MR. COOPER:

Good morning, Bruce Cooper, Deputy Minister, Children, Seniors and Social

Development.

MR. GRANDY:

Paul Grandy, Departmental Comptroller.

MS. WALSH:

Susan Walsh, Assistant Deputy Minister for the Child and Youth Services Branch.

MS. M. HEALEY:

Michelle Healey, Director of Healthy Living, Sport and Recreation Division.

MR. R. HEALEY:

Rick Healey, Assistant Deputy Minister for Programs and Policies.

MS. O'NEILL:

Melony O'Neill, Director of Communications.

MR. BENNETT:

Derek Bennett, MHA, Lewisporte Twillingate, and Parliamentary Secretary.

MS. WHITE:

Kelly White, Executive Assistant to Minister Gambin-Walsh.

CHAIR:

Wonderful.

Okay,

I'll ask the Clerk to call.

CLERK:

1.1.01.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 carry?

Ms.

Perry.

MS. PERRY:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Lisa, I'd like to have

some opening comments.

CHAIR:

Oh, my apologies.

Sorry,

we're going to do two

preambles this morning. Thank you.

apologies to the minister; so we'll allow the minister to open up the Children,

Seniors and Social I'm glad this is my last Estimates.

ahead, Minister.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Thank you very much.

Our

department is dedicated to providing a wide range of family focused services

with a concentration on nurturing strong, healthy communities. These services

include everything from protecting children and youth from maltreatment and

reuniting children with their families when appropriate, to helping alleviate

poverty and ensuring that all residents are provided the opportunity to

participate in our society and economy.

In the

area of child protection, our priority is to work with families with an end goal

of having children and youth returned to their home. We know that every child

and youth deserves a loving, nurturing environment and when possible, the best

place is with their family.

We have

worked hard to help us achieve these outcomes through such actions as developing

co-operative working relationships with our Aboriginal communities, completing a

review of our Children and Youth Care and

Protection Act to ensure that our legislation is allowing us to best meet

the needs of the clients we serve and rollout of our structured decision-making

model training this year.

continue to build upon the commitments to ensuring the protection and well-being

of our provinces most vulnerable children and youth. We also remain committed to

the approved organizational structure of 1-20 ratios in team structures.

Physical activity is such an important part of our daily lives, improving the

health and well-being of the people of this province is a large component of

this commitment. We have established targets to increase physical activity rates

by 7 per cent and reduce obesity rates by 5 per cent by 2025.

outlined in The Way Forward , our

success in Newfoundland and Labrador by 2025 will be measured by additional

targets such as increasing breastfeeding initiation rates and reductions in

smoking rates. Our community partners are crucial in helping us meet our targets

and I have to applaud them for the great work they are doing.

terms of the disability community, our government has committed to developing

and implementing a cross-departmental, individualized support funding model that

will enable individuals to self-direct the supports they receive and how they

are used. Supports for individuals are currently provided through a number of

programs, several departments and often with different application processes and

eligibility.

We will

work with our Provincial Advisory Council for the Inclusion of Persons with

Disabilities, community stakeholders and individuals to build a new delivery

model for individualized supports.

Speaking of the Provincial Advisory Council for the Inclusion of Persons with

Disabilities, I'm also pleased with the recent appointment of 12 individuals to

the council. The council is comprised of individuals who have extensive

knowledge and personal experience related to inclusion. The role of the council

is to advise and inform me on disability related issues, promote awareness and

identify best approaches to remove barriers experienced by persons with

disabilities.

Integrating the knowledge and experience of persons with disabilities has been

place a high value on the work of our partners, and we are very pleased to have

recently worked with the Coalition of Persons with Disabilities NL in creating a

universal design website. The universal design website project was funded

through our capacity grants.

I would

also like to mention the establishment of an Office of the Seniors Advocate in

our province. Our government promised to establish this office and we are well

on our way to delivering on that commitment. While mechanisms are currently in

place to handle information services and to address individual issues impacting

seniors, there is a gap when it comes to addressing systemic issues. This is the

core mandate of the Seniors Advocate.

Regulations have been developed in consultation with key stakeholders. The

Independent Appointments Commission is leading the search process for the

position of the Seniors Advocate and is expected to initiate the process in the

very near future.

These

are just a few of the items I would like to highlight for the Department of

Children, Seniors and Social Development. Despite the difficult fiscal realities

facing the province, we remain committed to providing the necessary supports so

that the department continues to deliver family focused services to the people

of our province.

Now we

would like to take the opportunity to address any questions you may have.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Ms.

Perry.

MS. PERRY:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Minister.

MS. PERRY:

My first question, of

course, can we get a copy of your binder today for this division as well?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

We will get you one

today.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Can we

also get an organizational chart including all the branches and divisions and

responsibilities?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

How

many people are employed in total in your department today?

MR. COOPER:

In our departmental salary

plan we have provision for 730 positions. We have 70 positions that are

currently vacant, and of our positions, we have 635 that are involved in front

line service delivery.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Do you

currently have any temporary positions in place?

MR. COOPER:

Yes, we do. We have about 20

temporary positions, and there are also some temporary positions that would

exist in regional operations.

MS. PERRY:

Can we get a list by title

of what each of these positions are?

MR. COOPER:

Yes, we can certainly do

that.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. Can you tell me what

subheads your temporary positions are included under?

MR. COOPER:

I would suggest they would

be I know there are 30 of them that would be included under the subhead that

is Child and Youth, but I won't be able to, off the top of my head, tell you the

rest of them.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MR. COOPER:

I would imagine they're

distributed throughout the department. We don't have a significant number for

the size of the department. We have a small number of temporary employees. You

understand that there's a difference between

MS. PERRY:

Yes.

MR. COOPER:

a temporary position,

where you have somebody who is moving into a project and then you have to

backfill.

MS. PERRY:

Yeah.

MR. COOPER:

So then, technically, you

have a temporary person backfilling a permanent position. There's a low number

and some of the reasons wouldn't it's not true temporary.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

And

when you give us a list of those temporaries, can you distinguish which ones are

contractual positions and which ones are 13-weekers?

MR. COOPER:

Yes.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Have

any positions been eliminated in your department?

MR. COOPER:

As part of budget decisions

for this year coming? For '17-'18?

MS. PERRY:

Any position, any and all,

whether it's part of budget or part of normal operations.

MR. COOPER:

Okay.

In this

year's salary plan, we've seen a reduction of 24 positions as a result of

management restructuring that has occurred. There's a net reduction of four

other positions that are owing to past year's decisions such as the attrition

management plan of some years ago.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Just

for clarity, 24 positions eliminated for management restructuring.

MR. COOPER:

Right.

MS. PERRY:

Plus four more eliminated

for attrition.

MR. COOPER:

Net four other positions

associated with past year's decisions.

MS. PERRY:

Is that the attrition plan?

MR. COOPER:

Attrition would be part of

it, yes.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MR. COOPER:

I don't have the full list

of those. I do have the listing of the positions that were associated with our

restructuring recently.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Can we

get a list of all of these positions, their title and any severance that was

paid out?

MR. COOPER:

Yes, you can. There's a

nuance with your severance question, and that is that severance is paid out at

the end of a person's serving notice period. So it would be a point-in-time

number.

MS. PERRY:

That's fine; we'd still like

the number.

MR. COOPER:

Okay, yes.

MS. PERRY:

Just to be clear, that's 28

positions in total: 24 for management restructuring and four from attrition?

MR. COOPER:

Four from previous year's

decisions, right.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Do you

have any vacancies in the department?

MR. COOPER:

Yes, we do.

MS. PERRY:

Right, 70. Of those 70

sorry about that are you planning on filling them all?

MR. COOPER:

Certainly, these are PCNs that would be under various stages of recruitment. The

question of whether we fill them all, as the minister referenced in her opening

comments, our department very similar to an allocation formula I guess you'd

see in the school system is predicated on an allocation of staffing to sustain

a ratio of basically six social workers to 120 cases, or one in 20 is the simple

way we frame it.

Given

we have a significant degree of turnover as a department, we have a lot of

people coming and leaving, every time we have a person leave a position, as

we're looking at whether we need to do a fill we do an assessment and we ask the

question: Are we going to be able to deliver our model? Do we need this position

to deliver our model? So for every position we have, we undertake that kind of

scrutiny and we ask ourselves ongoingly.

don't have any existent plans around eliminating any of these vacancies. But I

will say that our recruitment requires that we consider whether there's an

ongoing need for a position.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. And you're going to

provide us with a list of the vacancies as well?

MR. COOPER:

We can give you a list of our vacancies, yeah.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

When

the eight positions we talked about a little while ago were eliminated, were the

PCNs eliminated as well?

MR. COOPER:

Yes, any positions that were eliminated, particularly through our management

restructuring, the PCNs have been eliminated. I can't speak to the other four

positions because, to be honest, some of those positions may be ones that would

fall under attrition. We have to wait for that to occur.

But,

certainly, the PCNs were clearly eliminated and, actually, some new ones created

as part of our management restructuring process.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

That

was my next question, actually. Can you give us a list of the total number of

new positions created by title and the new PCN numbers?

MR. COOPER:

Sure. Yes.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MR. COOPER:

Do you want that now?

MS. PERRY:

Sure.

MR. COOPER:

I can't give you the PCN numbers for the new positions but perhaps it would be

helpful, to put this in context, for me to describe the organizational

restructuring. Would that be helpful?

MS. PERRY:

Sure.

MR. COOPER:

Because that's really the

story you need to understand to see the new positions we created.

MS. PERRY:

Yeah.

MR. COOPER:

Through our organizational change process we went through a process of

identifying our strategic issues. We looked at our workloads, we looked at

appropriate practices around span of control for directors and we looked at

issues we needed to resolve in terms of creating a strong department, a new

department. Through that process we made some decisions.

We've

merged two of our regions. Central region and western region have been merged

now under the leadership of one director. We merged together what were

previously two separate divisions of Healthy Living and Rec and Sport, creating

a brand new division that's focusing on the important synergy between these

areas.

Because

we were two departments coming together we had two distinct policy functions. So

we merged them together to one. That was one of the eliminations and thus we

needed a new position created.

In the

child, youth and family services area there were three directors with the work

broken down along the lines of youth, adoptions and protection, essentially.

What we did is we amalgamated. What that means is we created new positions. We

created a new director of Healthy Living, Rec and Sport to support the new

structure. We created a director of policy and strategic planning, a director of

Adoptions and In Care, which is bringing together all elements of the Continuum

of Care for children under one person and one division, and a director of

children and youth focusing on child protection and youth issues. That explains

the structure and the four positions that we created.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. Thank you.

Can you

give me a breakdown of the number of employees in the Seniors and Social

Development division versus the CYFS division? Can we have a complete

organizational chart with titles?

MR. COOPER:

We'll certainly get you organizational charts. The organizational charts we'll

be able to provide will be at the level of the management staff, because at this

point we're still doing work within our system within HRS to ensure everything

is coded properly before they can press the button for us and give us new

charts. So we can get you the management because we've done all that.

Your

question in relation to Seniors and Aging, we have a director of Seniors and

Aging and we have three management staff in that area, three analyst-level staff

in that area.

I'm not

forgetting any, am I, Rick? That's it?

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MR. COOPER:

The role of Seniors and

Aging is they don't actually run a program in the same way that a child

protection program operates. They are a hub for policy development, supporting

all departments throughout government, looking at things through an age-friendly

lens and providing support to every department in government. So as a policy

shop, we maintained our resources at the level I just described.

Over in

the Child and Youth area, we have a director and we have I just have to do the

math here. Actually, Rick, maybe you know off the top of your head. I see three

management positions showing here and several unionized, but I don't have the

number at my fingertips.

MR. R. HEALEY:

Under Child and Youth, we would have a director and we would have four policy

analysts.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Last

year in Estimates, we talked about the

Adult Protection Act and at that time there were 258 reports and 22

investigations. Can you give us the updated statistics for this year?

MR. COOPER:

I'll pass that to Rick.

MR. R. HEALEY:

Sorry, would you mind repeating that?

MS. PERRY:

Last year, there were 258

reports and 22 investigations under the

Adult Protection Act . What are the statistics for this year?

MR. R. HEALEY:

I don't have that with me right now. I can get that for you, though.

MS. PERRY:

Okay, thank you so much.

Last

year, how much was actually spent on the Seniors' Advocate office?

MR. COOPER:

To my recollection, I don't believe we spent any money on the office in the last

fiscal year, as it is not established yet.

MS. PERRY:

So there was zero dollars

spent in relation to that position, creating that position, getting ready for

that position, nothing spent that have been allocated to that?

MR. COOPER:

There was money spent in a partnership with the Seniors Resource Centre to

ensure that there's understanding about seniors' programs. I don't have that

number. I think it was around $100,000, if memory serves.

MS. PERRY:

So it was $100,000 paid to

whom?

MR. COOPER:

It would have been the

Seniors Resource Centre.

MS. PERRY:

Can you get us the details

on that as well?

MR. COOPER:

Yes, we certainly can.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Last

year in Estimates, we talked about the new anti-smoking campaign. Can we get an

update on where that is?

MR. COOPER:

So the campaign you're

referring to I didn't have the benefit of being here last year, the campaign

that we're currently embarking upon for smoking cessation, and you'll see in the

Estimates, there's $100,000 revenue that we received from the federal government

to extend our smoking cessation work with the Smokers' Helpline to carry on that

service for another two years.

There's

been the addition of over this year we spent some money on a development of, I

guess you'd call it an online text-based support service. So there have been

some investments there and there's a plan for the year ahead to work on looking

at how we address the need for nicotine replacement therapies for persons in low

income. We've have a plan that's being put together for this year that will

include that and some other interventions.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. So when can we expect

it to roll out?

MR. COOPER:

We're linking this with the

development of an overall healthy living strategy or action plan, I should say.

There'll be some things rolling out in the coming months. Certainly, by the time

the fall hits.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

I'm out

of time again. I'm going to park my next question because it's a bigger one.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Ms.

Rogers.

MS. ROGERS:

If we go line by line here

under 1.1.01 in Minister's Office, for Salaries there was a reduction of

$68,000. Can you tell me what that reduction represents?

MR. COOPER:

There are three funded PCNs

in the Minister's Office: the minister, the executive assistant and the

departmental secretary to the minister. The variance that you're seeing there is

due to a zero-based adjustment that occurred through the elimination of one

secretary to the minister positions.

There

were two positions budgeted in '16-'17 because of the two departments, so

there'll only be one secretary to the minister for '17-'18.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you very much.

Transportation and Communications, I see the variance there of $31,000 not

spent, if we could have an idea of what wasn't spent, what that variance

represents and then a reduction of $21,000.

MR. COOPER:

The reduction that you note

from '16-'17, fundamentally, there was just less travel than expected. And I

think it's fair to say, and we certainly encountered this as we did the

zero-based budget exercise, oftentimes the numbers in these areas, particularly,

that we were carrying, were a reflection perhaps of history as opposed to based

on an assessment of need.

So it's

certainly not the case that the minister didn't go to any FPT meetings that she

was supposed to or anything of that nature. Everything that was meant to be done

was done and we happened to have this slippage.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

MR. COOPER:

So in terms of your question regarding the '17-'18 budget and why we're down

$21,000, again, it's the zero-based budgeting process.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

MR. COOPER:

We looked ahead and we planned the minister's trips. We anticipated what trips

are going to be there in the minister's office for the year ahead and that's the

number that we needed.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, thank you.

1.2.01,

Executive Support, this may have been answered in the positions that you

mentioned earlier, but a reduction in the salary of $282,000?

MR. COOPER:

Right.

This

reduction is based on the changes that the department made; the merger of

departments.

MS. ROGERS:

Merger, yeah.

MR. COOPER:

So we had four positions eliminated: one deputy minister, two assistant deputy

ministers and one director of communications, for a total reduction of $428,000.

There's an offsetting amount of $145,800 to ensure we have sufficient funding

that was put back for that net reduction of $282,000.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, thank you very much.

I would

assume that Transportation and Communications reductions there are also the

result of zero-based budgeting.

MR. COOPER:

That's correct; same process.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, great, thank you.

That's

all I have there.

Were

you calling just those two?

CHAIR:

We just did the Minister's

Office, Ms. Rogers, to start. So if there are no more questions, okay.

MS. ROGERS:

I may have more here too,

just a sec now.

I see

there's nothing under 1.2.01, Executive Support, for Professional Services?

MR. COOPER:

That's correct.

You can

see there was nothing used in'16-'17 for Professional Services and when we

looked at it in preparation for budget, really when you think about it from the

executive office perspective, we thought it's better to consolidate that. Let's

move all Professional Services to one place so we can manage it better, as

opposed to having money spread in different places. So we moved our Professional

Services spending all on our policy and program areas just because it didn't

seem to it hadn't been used historically and why ask for it.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, and Purchased

Services.

MR. COOPER:

Right.

MS. ROGERS:

What kinds of purchased services would you have had there?

MR. COOPER: It

would be everything from taxis to room rentals to media monitoring, those sorts

of things.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. So that's been reduced significantly.

MR. COOPER:

Yes, that's correct. Within the same process, we built it up from zero.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, great. Thanks.

That's General Administration; we're still going all the

way through 1.2 I assume, right? Is it?

CHAIR: Pardon

me?

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible.)

CHAIR: No,

we're just doing the Minister's Office right now. When you're ready, we'll move

on.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Well, I kind of snuck into the next one, didn't I?

CHAIR: Pardon

me?

MS. ROGERS: And

no one stopped me. Does that mean I can keep going?

CHAIR: So

you're done with 1.1.01?

MS. ROGERS: I

am. Thank you.

CHAIR: Okay,

Ms. Perry, you have some more questions in that section?

MS. PERRY: Yes.

Can you provide some information on ratios and staffing levels in Child

Protection? How many social workers per supervisors? How many clerical staff and

assistant staff per social worker? How many front-line positions are in Child

Protection currently? What percentage of positions is vacant?

MR. COOPER:

Yes, would you like that now or would you like us to

MS. PERRY:

Yeah, if you have it.

MR. COOPER:

Okay.

So, Susan, do you want to chime in here?

MS. PERRY: And

I'd like it in writing after as well.

MR. COOPER: No

problem, yeah.

MS. WALSH: The

team approach is used in Child Protection Services and it is supported by our

organizational model that Bruce referred to earlier.

We have six social workers on every team and those social

workers generally have 20 cases each. Certainly, if you add the six social

workers' caseloads up, it would be 120, and that 120 reports to one supervisor.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MS. WALSH: Each

of the supervisors report to a zone manager. So we have five clinical program

supervisors that report to a zone manager. I'm just going to walk through our

process in terms of the model first.

MS. PERRY: Yes.

MS. WALSH: We

have four, generally, zone managers who report to a regional director. So we

have three regions, as Bruce laid out for you earlier. So that's our structure.

We track our caseloads in relation to our social workers.

So we know that generally for the province, as of December of 2016, we had a

provincial ratio of about 24 cases per social worker.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MS. WALSH: And

that varied across our region; some regions would have been exactly on 20. For

example, Central West was 20, Metro was 22, but Labrador is a little higher. We

were at 29 for Labrador. I

know there are numerous pieces to your question, could you ?

MS. PERRY:

It was a long question, so

certainly some of it you can prepare for me: How many social workers per

supervisor; how many clerical staff and assistant staff per social worker; how

many front-line positions are in Child Protection currently; and what percentage

of these positions are vacant?

MS. WALSH:

Okay. Going back to the team structure I explained to you, each team has a

clerical support staff, and most would have as well, or at least share with

another team, depending on the area, a social work assistant and/or a community

services worker in Labrador. So that's basically the team structure, in terms of

you asked about the support positions.

well, we have approximately 20 behaviour management specialist positions

throughout all the regions, and I think that's generally all of the support

positions. The other question you had, in terms of vacancies, there are

approximately 57 vacancies currently in regional operations.

generally would have a vacancy factor of about 7 to 8 per cent. You can

appreciate that we have very often a young workforce, especially in terms of our

social workers, and a very female-dominated profession. So consequently, we

incur a fair bit of turnover as it relates to maternity leaves. We have

approximately 640 positions in regional operations and only about half of that

are social workers. So we also have a number of, you know, all these other

support positions, and these positions turn over in terms of applying on other

jobs, moving, all the things that happen in a larger organization.

MS. PERRY:

Okay, thank you.

How

many CYFS offices are now open? How many offices do you have?

MR. COOPER:

Forty-four.

MS. PERRY:

Forty-four?

MR. COOPER:

Yes.

MS. PERRY:

How many closed last year?

MR. COOPER:

Last year there were two offices that closed.

MS. PERRY:

Where were they?

MR. COOPER:

Port Saunders and Gambo.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

I got

question on the overall Program Funding

Summary, which is on page 1 just before

1.1.01. You have a gross expenditure of $170-and-some-odd million; less: related

revenue current of $16,262,300. What is that?

MR. COOPER:

So our revenue is comprised of children's benefit; we do get revenue when

children come into care, we essentially get the same benefit that the family

would get because we are

MS. PERRY:

From the feds?

MR. COOPER:

From the federal government.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MR. COOPER:

And that then gets converted, that gets passed on as part of our allowances and

assistance to foster families.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MR. COOPER:

We also get significant revenue, and it's actually gone up this year by another

$2 million, from the federal government in relation to the provision of services

in Sheshatshiu and Natuashish.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MR. COOPER:

With the Innu Nation.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MR. COOPER:

So because it's an area of federal responsibility, we're able to bill back.

That's been an area I think our revenue there has grown over $3 million in the

last 18 months.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Now,

directly into 1.1.01, can you provide an explanation of why Salaries for last

year were budgeted at $261,000 but came in at $291,000? So you were over by

$30,400 1.1.01, Salaries.

MR. COOPER:

I'm sorry, my apologies; my bifocals aren't working today.

It has

to do with severance and paid leave payout to a retiring secretary that occurred

in '16-'17.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

I've

reviewed the Estimates of this department in relation to CYFS and SWSD in the

2016 budget documents and it looks like the 2016-'17 budget number that's listed

here for the Minister's Office is the number from last year's budget for the two

departments combined. Can you confirm that?

MR. COOPER:

Paul, can you ?

MR. GRANDY :

It wouldn't be the exact same numbers because there were a couple of positions

eliminated. There was one minister's secretary eliminated. So the budget for

this year wouldn't be the exact the budget that's listed there from last year,

yes, is the two combined amounts. I'm sorry, yes.

MS. PERRY:

Yes.

MR. GRANDY:

If you're asking about '16-'17, yes, I'm sorry.

MS. PERRY:

Yeah.

MR. GRANDY:

It is the combined amount, yes.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MR. GRANDY:

I was thinking '17-'18 is (inaudible).

MS. PERRY:

Yes.

MR. GRANDY:

But '16-'17, yes, is the combined amount.

MS. PERRY:

When we did the math, it

matched up.

MR. GRANDY:

Yes, absolutely.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

terms of Supplies, how is the savings of $3,800 achieved last year and what will

the $500 budgeted for this year be spent on?

MR. COOPER:

Well, we had less than anticipated supplies expenditures last year. Again, it's

not as if there are things that we just chose not to buy, it's just the volumes

weren't there.

terms of what our expenditure this year would be used on, we looked at our past

history of spending and our Supplies line provides for the purchase of office

supplies and meeting room supplies, just miscellaneous office supplies. So when

we looked at our volumes in terms of what we consume, that's what we so

binders and so on.

Anything else you wanted to add to that, Paul?

MR. GRANDY:

No, it's just general office supplies, anything you can use in that category.

CHAIR:

Minister.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

In the previous years,

there was a significant amount of supplies purchased and we have on stock enough

supplies to do us, I can assure you; therefore, the budget was reduced.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. So that probably

explains Purchased Services. You went $200 over budget last year. You budgeted

$2,700 and you spent $2,900, but this year you brought it down to $500. Is that

because you have surplus from the money you spent last year?

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

We have surplus for

money spent in previous years, not necessarily last year. So by doing zero-based

budgeting, we have enabled ourselves not to have to purchase supplies that we do

not need.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. So even though last

year you needed $2,900 worth, this year you think you can get away with $500.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Last year zero-based

budgeting was not completed. It was done on previous expenditures, the analysis.

This year

MS. PERRY:

But you actually spent

$2,900.

MS. GAMBIN-WALSH:

Yes.

MS. PERRY:

Last year you spent it.

MR. COOPER:

Yes, last year there was a higher than anticipated photocopying expense and the

year ahead we're actually re-profiling the budget for the office for all

photocopiers. Again, trying to consolidate them under Corporate Services and

Performance Improvement, in addition to

CHAIR:

Sorry, my apologies, I was just noticing the clock.

MR. COOPER:

Thank you.

MS. PERRY:

I just have one question

left on 1.1.01.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Ms.

Rogers, is it okay to grant leave?

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Ms.

Perry.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. Under Purchased

Services, what purchased services are included here and how confident are you

that you're not going to need more than $500 this year? What was included under

Purchased Services?

MR. COOPER:

This is for meeting costs, media monitoring, entertainment and general purchased

services. We're confident, based upon our review, based upon the change we've

made in the photocopiers, that this is appropriate, and frankly, we'll manage

it. We're a large department and we're confident we can manage with that amount

of money.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Good stuff, everybody's

good.

Shall

1.1.01 carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, subhead 1.1.01 carried.

CLERK:

The total.

CHAIR:

Shall the total carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

1.2.01

through 1.2.04 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.2.01 through 1.2.04

inclusive carry?

Ms.

Perry.

MS. PERRY:

Okay, I'm just going to pick

up on a question Ms. Rogers asked on 1.2.01, Salaries. You indicated there were

four positions eliminated, but $145,000 was put back. What was that $145,000 put

back for? In explaining the difference between $1.9 million and $1.6 million,

that was the explanation.

MR. GRANDY:

We did eliminate four positions, and the total was $428,000. I guess to meet the

requirement for the positions that are there this year, $145,000 was just added

back to make sure we have sufficient funding to fund the I think it's 12 or

13, 12 positions that are in that area.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Were

any positions removed, and can we get the specific titles of the jobs that were

eliminated?

MR. COOPER:

Yes, there were four positions removed. There was one deputy minister, two

assistant deputy ministers and one director of communications.

MS. PERRY:

How much severance was paid

out?

MR. GRANDY:

I know the total. I don't know what the breakdown was in severance.

MR. COOPER:

We can certainly get that for you.

MS. PERRY:

Pardon? You can get that for

us.

MR. COOPER:

We can get that for you as part of our overall package that we're yes.

MS. PERRY:

Okay, thank you so much. I'm

not hearing very well here this morning.

Under

your Purchased Services and Professional Services, what items are typically

included here? Taxis and room rentals and media monitoring Gerry asked that

one.

Okay,

I'm good, actually. No, I have one more.

Property, Furnishings and Equipment had a budget last year of $2,000, this year

you have nothing allocated. What did you purchase with that $2,000 last year?

MR. COOPER:

Last year we moved from Elizabeth Avenue to a new office on the sixth floor

here, and there were some requirements associated with the move. There were a

variety of things, such as a bookcase, a mobile filing pedestal and structure

column, a mobile filing pedestal, a shredder, and a panel for somebody's desk in

order to accommodate their ergonomic needs. So that's where the money went last

year.

This

year, again this is an area as we did our budgeting, our planning, we believe

it makes more sense to consolidate all of our PFV in one place in the department

so we can better manage it. So this money moved out to Corporate Services and

Performance Improvement to manage.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

We're

going on to 1.2.04?

CHAIR:

Yes.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Under

1.2.02, Corporate Services and Performance Improvement, this is a new subhead in

the budget. Which subheads have been combined and from which departments, so we

can figure out how to account for this one from both subheads?

MR. COOPER:

If memory serves me correctly, this is what used to be just called Corporate

Services. We added in the Performance Improvement as a symbol of the efforts

that we need to take to improve quality in our department, and this provides a

locus for that work to take place.

terms of other subheads; you would have seen quality there before, you would

have seen training there before. We now have quality and training, healthy

living, sport and rec, information management, planning, finance, and general

operations are all of the divisions that exist under that banner.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

With

respect to Salaries, where in last year's

Estimates book can I find the $4,491,100 which was budgeted for last year? I

can't find it in last year's Estimates

book.

MR. GRANDY:

It should be in Corporate Services. If you look at the previous CYFS, it would

have been Corporate Services. In the SWSD, it would have been healthy living and

recreation and sport.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MR. GRANDY:

I think if you look at those three areas and combine those, it should give you

the total.

You're

looking at the '16-'17 original budget?

MS. PERRY:

Yes.

MR. GRANDY:

Yes.

MS. PERRY:

In terms of the amounts from

the original budget to the revised, how were the savings of $253,000 achieved

last year?

MR. COOPER:

This is primarily related to vacancies in some management and admin support

positions. We had a director of information management that was vacant for a

period of time. We had a manager of organizational development, a financial

analyst, three IM techs and two clerks that were vacant for a period of time.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

How

much severance cost is included in the amount allocated for Salaries for

2017-'18 do you anticipate?

MR. COOPER:

I don't have the actual severance number here for that area but, again, we can

put that together for you.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

There's

a cut in Salaries for this coming year. Over $325,000 has been cut from budget

'16 to budget '17. Can the minister give an overview considering that zero-based

budgeting information indicates that Salaries should increase by $29,300, yet

the line item in the Estimates has actually decreased?

MR. COOPER:

There are 53 positions in this area. I think that in terms of the reductions, we

have $400,000 that's related to four positions that were eliminated as part of

management restructuring: three director positions and one policy program

development specialist.

We've

had some additions in relation to the new positions: director of policy and

director of Healthy Living, Rec and Sport and we had a JES adjustment. The

$29,000 you're referring to, I think, is an adjustment. It was an add back to

ensure that because there are some costs associated with severance, we need to

make sure that we have enough money to cover everything that happens over this

year. That was an add back to balance us, to make sure we got to balance with

the consequences of some of the changes that we'd made.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Can you

explain how the division saved $8,900 last year on Employee Benefits?

MR. COOPER:

Essentially, that would mean that there were fewer than anticipated conferences

attended or events of that nature.

Again,

the money that would have been acquired by the department last year would have

been based upon prior year spending levels, and not necessarily connected to a

calendar-based plan for what's going to happen. So for this year we used

zero-based.

MS. PERRY:

Employees attending

conferences are budgeted under Employee Benefits?

MR. COOPER:

Yes, that's correct.

MS. PERRY:

Not travel?

MR. COOPER:

Perhaps the kind of benefits

that you might be thinking of in terms of the benefits that come with being an

employee, the payment of benefits EI, workers' comp that all comes under the

Salaries section.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MR. COOPER:

These are benefits in terms of conferences.

MS. PERRY:

Elaborate for me, then, on

what you consider employee benefits there?

MR. COOPER:

I'm sorry?

MS. PERRY:

Elaborate for me on what's

considered employee benefits? Attending a conference? What other things?

MR. COOPER:

Seminar training courses, registration fees for staff.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MR. COOPER:

Registration fees for in some departments it might be registration fees for

their professional association or

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Under

Transportation and Communications, what types of transportation and

communications are included here? Can you explain why there was a savings of

$165,000 in 2016-'17, but that savings has not been carried over to 2017-2018?

MR. COOPER:

In terms of what we used, the Transportation and Communications line 4, that's

for travel, for telecommunication, for postage, for fax, for courier charges. In

terms of the savings from last year, we're down $112,000 in terms of our revised

budget from the '16-'17 original budget and that was just less than anticipated

travel.

reduced the budget overall for '17-'18 by $22,600 which we did an adjustment to.

That's based upon our assessment of our needs. Essentially, we did everything

from looking at our utilization of postage.

This is

an area where we have 4,000 pieces of mail a year that goes out. Part of the

role of this group is when individuals who used to be in care, or who have

questions around their history if they were adopted, they come to us and want a

file review. We have 4,000 interactions a year with people, so we built it up

again from 4,000 of the special envelopes and everything associated with that.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Under

Supplies oh, I'm out.

MR. COOPER:

That's okay.

MS. PERRY:

Sorry, I have to stop.

MS. ROGERS:

Thank you very much.

Just

back to 1.2.02: Appropriations provide for the management of the quality and

training . Can you tell me a little bit about what training is in that

situation?

MR. COOPER:

Certainly.

The

department has we have our own training unit comprised of a manager and two

social workers. We're working in tandem with the School of Social Work to revise

our whole approach to training. When social workers first get hired they get

provided with what's called pre-CORE training. They get an orientation week

essentially where they are given a series of modules. Then, as their employment

goes on, we have other training that's provided.

This

unit are the people that lead that. We're in the process of changing our

delivery model to online, more teleconference.

MS. ROGERS:

Right.

MR. COOPER:

So that's what they do. The

marriage with quality is because one of the key features of an organization that

cares about quality is focusing on training and staff and engaging with staff.

That's what they do and why they do it.

MS. ROGERS:

Would this be the only

pocket of money, then, to provide training, for instance, for social workers and

child protection or is this separate? Is there more money for training, other

pockets of money for training for social workers in the front line?

MR. COOPER:

There's an Employee Benefits line for the whole department, for the provincial

office.

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah.

MR. COOPER:

It's held in the activity

we're discussing. But there's also an Employee Benefits line that exists in the

regional operations where that supports most of the front-line service delivery.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

So the

Employee Benefits for the training here, then, is $14,900. That would be for

those activities that you talked

MR. COOPER:

That's for the provincial office. That's right.

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah, okay.

All

right. Thank you. Thank you very much.

I'm

ready to move on to 1.2.03. Salaries, we see a reduction there in budget '16-'17

of $184,000, then a reduction of $475,000. Can we just identify where that's

from?

MR. COOPER:

The savings from '16-'17 was related to vacancies and delays in filling

positions. We had, for example, a vacancy in a program and policy development

specialist; we had a long-term leave from a clerk typist. This is the sort of

thing that leads to those savings.

terms of the budget being down, overall in this area we've got 27 funded

positions: 23 permanent, three temporary and one contractual. There are some

positions that were reduced as part of management restructuring: our four

director positions, one manager of special projects and a policy and program

development specialist.

course we've had some add backs as well to support the restructuring and we've

had some prior year decisions that are being reflected here in terms of the

attrition plan or other plans that existed previously.

MS. ROGERS:

And we can get a list of

those positions

MR. COOPER:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, great.

Thank

you very much.

Where

have I gone now? Okay.

Then

Administrative Support, Operating Accounts, we see you didn't spend $50,000 in

Property, Furnishings and Equipment. I assume that's because it wasn't needed.

MR. COOPER:

It's Property, Furnishings and Equipment you're referring to?

MS. ROGERS:

Yes, in 1.2.04. I assume

that wasn't spent because it wasn't needed.

MR. COOPER:

1.2.04, okay. Oh, I'm sorry, you're in another area.

That's

correct. My apologies, I just had to get to the right place in the binder.

So this

is money we use for procuring vehicles for remote communities in Labrador, and

we had no expenditure last year in that area.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, great.

Thank

you.

A few

general questions: Can we have an update on the

Adult Protection Act ? I can't

remember, did you already ask that, Tracey, the number of reports of abuse in

2016, what types? I think that was already asked, yes?

MR. COOPER:

Yes, we'll get that.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Is there still

education and training ongoing around the act?

MR. COOPER:

I'll have to defer to Rick.

MR. R. HEALEY:

There's an adult protection committee with the regional health authorities.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

MR. R. HEALEY:

Actually, I do have those numbers for you now. Sorry about that.

2015-16 there were 308 reports. We have the first three-quarters of 2016-17, and

for the first three-quarters we have 253 reports.

MS. ROGERS:

Wow, okay. For the first

three

MR. R. HEALEY:

And the fourth quarter is being tabulated now.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. So it looks like an

increase.

MR. R. HEALEY:

Yeah, we're not sure yet.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thanks Rick.

What is

the timeline for the Seniors' Advocate position? Do we have a timeline,

Minister?

MR. COOPER:

It's very nice to be here in the House because we work very closely with the

House now. We're getting to the point where this is an officer of the House,

it's being moved. The recruitment process is being moved with a lot of

engagement with the House.

The IAC

advised that the process is getting underway. I think there's some sorry.

CLERK:

(Inaudible.)

MR. COOPER:

Okay, thank you.

Sandra

just advised me it closes May 14; it's posted.

MS. ROGERS:

(Inaudible.)

MR. COOPER:

Yeah.

The

original plan was to have it in place for the spring, so it depends upon that

process just needs to unfold. So it'll be soon.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, although the Advocate

will be an Officer of the House, the Advocate will be sitting in CSSD or

Executive Council?

MR. COOPER:

No.

The

role that our department played with the Advocate was because of the role of

aging and seniors, we basically took government's policy and developed the

policy framework to meet the commitment and helped it through the Cabinet

process.

Now

that it's been incubated and is hatched, it's going to be moving over to the

House of Assembly.

MS. ROGERS:

Great.

MR. COOPER:

So it will be an Officer of the House in the same way that the other officers

exist.

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah.

MR. COOPER:

So there will be no affiliation with the department

MS. ROGERS:

Good.

MR. COOPER: except

as partners to work on issues.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you very much.

The

Poverty Reduction Strategy office seems to no longer be an entity onto itself.

Can you tell me what has happened there and what's happening with the Poverty

Reduction Strategy?

MR. COOPER: Certainly.

The poverty reduction division still does exist. They are

within our department. We've got a director and two staff; two management

analyst staff. We've got them nicely linked with other individuals that do this

horizontal policy work and who are focused on inclusion and social development.

So there are nice partnerships between our director of the Disability Policy

Office and the director of Seniors and Aging.

And in terms of actions and an action plan, certainly

there's been a significant piece of work; we're continuing to improve

investments for poverty reduction. I know at this point we're gathering together

the actions that were undertaken in this year's budget to be able to convey

everything the increased investment that has occurred this year. I think the

investment is up by I'm trying to remember, Rick, what the number is. We've

gone from $253 million to about $270 million in poverty reduction initiatives

for '17-'18.

MS. ROGERS:

That are peppered throughout

a number of programs?

MR. COOPER:

Exactly, yes.

So the

poverty reduction initiative is something that has always been a horizontal

it's about a whole-of-government approach

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

MR. COOPER:

and a whole-of-community approach and that's what's continuing.

With

The Way Forward now and focus on

community partnership, focus on health and all policies, our work with the

disabilities community, housing first concepts, there are new elements that

we're looking at to see how the poverty reduction actions going forward can link

these things.

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible.)

MR. COOPER:

Right. Individualized funding, of course, is a big initiative as well that has a

poverty reduction element.

MS. ROGERS:

Individualized funding.

MR. COOPER:

Right.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Is there any specific

work being done, taking into account the current economic situation, the

forecast of increased unemployment, reduction in household income, cost of

living? What's being done in terms of looking at that bigger picture?

CHAIR:

Mr. Cooper, just before you

respond; after you finish, we'll go back to Ms. Perry.

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah, great.

CHAIR:

Okay. Thank you.

MR. COOPER:

Yes, part of our role is continuing to monitor how the population is doing with

respect to poverty levels. So we do have a plan in our budget this year to

purchase some data to make sure we're looking at these questions that you raise.

Essentially, the fundamental question is: How are people doing and what changes

might we be seeing? So we will be purchasing data so that we can stay on top of

those questions.

MS. ROGERS:

Just to finish up that one.

How current is the data that you're able to get? It's

MR. COOPER:

There's always a lag.

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah.

MR. COOPER:

I think it's a two-year lag, but I can't remember the date precisely from our

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah. That's hard when there

are sometimes quick shifts in what's happening in (inaudible).

MR. COOPER:

That's true. That's one of the challenges; lag indicators are a challenge.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, thank you.

MR. COOPER:

We certainly support, we infuse that with we've got strong connections with

community. We certainly understand what's happening on the ground as well.

MS. ROGERS:

Great, thank you.

CHAIR:

Ms. Perry.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Just in

the interest of not duplicating over and over, can we be provided with a copy

for every line item: 1.2.02, .03 and .04 of the specific titles of positions

that are eliminated and the specific amount of severance to be paid out in

relation to the elimination of these positions, as well as the title and salary

of the new positions, if any, that you're putting back as part of your whole

restructuring piece?

MR. COOPER:

Yes.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

terms of Professional Services, what was cut last year? Or was there anything in

particular that you didn't purchase that you otherwise would have to achieve the

savings of $26,300? And we're at 1.2.02.

MR. COOPER:

1.2.04.

MS. PERRY:

Professional Services.

MR. COOPER: Okay.

Am I looking at the wrong what page are we on?

OFFICIAL:

1.2.02, Corporate Services.

MR. COOPER: Oh,

okay.

MS. PERRY: Last

year, you had budgeted $51,300 and you only spent $25,000.

MR. COOPER: My

apologies. I thought we were in a different section.

OFFICIAL:

What

section are we in there, Tracey?

MS. PERRY:

1.2.02, still.

OFFICIAL:

Oh.

MS. PERRY:

Because we're doing 02 to

04, right?

MR. COOPER:

Okay, 1.2.02, Corporate Services. If you have it, you can speak to it.

MS. PERRY:

My head hurts too.

MR. GRANDY:

Yeah, sure.

MR. COOPER: Go

ahead.

MR. GRANDY:

Last year, there was a budget of $50,000 I think it was and we spent

$25,000. I just have to check back.

MS. PERRY:

Yeah.

MR. GRANDY:

Yeah, we spent $25,000. The $25,000 was a just give me a second. We had a

consultant working on the Helping Women

Quit , Healthy Living initiative. That was the only expenditure in that area.

The $50,000 for '17-'18 includes $10,000 for consultants to

advise on quality initiatives, $20,000 for the development of School Food

Guidelines and breastfeeding initiative and $20,000 to the Atlantic

Collaborative on Injury Prevention.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MR. GRANDY:

There are three items there for the next year, or for this current year, sorry.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. Thank you.

Under Revenue, where does this revenue come from? What

determines how much revenue is obtained in each year?

MR. COOPER:

Under this item, the revenue is related to entrance fees from pools. There are

three pools: one in Corner Brook, Gander and Happy Valley-Goose Bay.

MS. PERRY: It

comes from what?

MR. COOPER: We

operate three swimming pools in Corner Brook, Gander and Happy Valley-Goose Bay.

This is revenue associated with people coming to swim.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Under 1.2.03 now, Professional Services, there's a lot of

variance there from the budgeted amount of $83,800. You actually only spent

$17,000 and then this year you're budgeting $389,600. I want to pick that apart

a little bit. Why is it increasing, the $389,000 this year, when you only spent

$17,000 last year?

MR. COOPER:

Essentially, the largest item there relates to our structured decision-making

model. It was one of the new initiatives announced in the budget. This is the

implementation of the rollout of the structured decision-making approach which

is part of our overall plan to improve clinical practice in the department.

It's

married with the ISM, the Integrated Service Management computer program that's

being developed. We're anticipating ISM will be starting to roll out the end of

this fiscal and we'll be marrying up the structured decision making. It's

largely training that this is going to be used for, training of staff and some

follow-up. That's what's happening and that's about $305,000.

MS. PERRY:

You expect that to be a

consultant?

MR. COOPER:

Yes, we've engaged with the Children's Research Centre out of the US. They're

the group that have developed this kind of proprietary model, this structured

decision-making model. It's an evidence-based model, well tested in use in other

jurisdictions. We're going to be working with them on that.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Can you

explain why last year you only spent $17,000 when you had budgeted $83,000?

MR. COOPER:

Yes, the $17,000 was spent on curriculum development for some training we're

doing on collaborative investigation of child sexual abuse.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MR. COOPER:

That was what the department had planned and there were just fewer activates

than expected.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

I want

to go back a little bit. You know that question I just asked about Salaries?

When you provide that information, can you give me PSN numbers as well and if

they were eliminated or if there are any new ones?

MR. COOPER:

We can certainly do that.

MS. PERRY:

Thank you so much.

A lot

to keep in our heads; you guys, too, I'm sure.

Purchased Services: how do you explain the drop of the budget to $145,000?

MR. COOPER:

Forgive me. We're talking about Purchased Services?

MS. PERRY:

Yeah, 1.2.03.

MR. COOPER:

Okay.

For

this year we're down because we did the zero-based exercise. One hundred

thousand dollars of the reduction is basically us backing out revenue that we

only needed one time. There was money we needed. There was an appropriation

required to support the Seniors Resource Centre. We don't need that in the year

to come, so that's the lion's share of the change.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. We couldn't find where

the other $100,000 went.

Is that the end of that

subhead?

CHAIR:

You're okay?

MS. PERRY:

Or we're gone to 1.2.04?

CHAIR:

1.2.04.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. We're good there.

CHAIR:

So if you're good up to

there, Ms. Rogers, are you fine up to what

MS. ROGERS:

Yes, thank you very much.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Shall

1.2.01 to 1.2.04 carry?

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against?

Carried.

motion, subheads 1.2.01 through 1.2.04 carried.

CHAIR:

Shall the totals carry?

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against?

Carried.

Shall

2.1.01 carry?

Ms.

Perry.

MS. PERRY:

Okay, this is the only

subhead which includes funding for Child and Youth Services. Can the minister

detail which subheadings from Budget 2016

are contained here?

MR. GRANDY: There

is one subhead from the previous year called I think one is called regional

operations, Regional Services and the other one is called Direct Client

Services, I think: those two.

MS. PERRY:

Yeah.

MR. GRANDY: If

you add those two together they should give you the '16-'17 original budget.

MS. PERRY: They

come close. They give us $132,484,500. There's a $57,000 difference. Can you

explain that?

MR. GRANDY: How

much is there, $57,000?

MS. PERRY:

Yeah.

MR. GRANDY:

More, no, less less or more?

MS. PERRY:

Less.

MR. GRANDY:

Anyway, I know $57,000 was related to an adjustment that was paid and a budget

adjustment for Labrador allowance. There were some retroactive payments. Staff

who work in Labrador get what is called a Labrador allowance for travel.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MR. GRANDY:

They signed a new agreement last year. It went back, I think, to '13-'14, or

maybe '12-'13; I'm not sure, one of those years. The $57,000 was for retroactive

pay plus whatever was paid in '16-'17. That's the difference.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Which programs and functions are contained with this

subhead?

MR. COOPER:

This is essentially the continuation of all Child and Youth Services programs at

the regional level. This is about the support to all caregivers, whether they be

kin or Level IV care. This is the protective intervention program. It's, again,

all children and youth in care. It's a Youth Services residential program, our

Youth Services supportive services, Community Corrections and Open Custody

residential services.

This is where we've got our 44 locations. This is the bulk

of the service delivery from the former Child, Youth and Family Services

Department.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Under Salaries and, again, for all of these I'd like the

same information. Can the minister give us a detailed overview of what is

happening here on this salary line? Last year $44.8 million was budgeted but

only $44.6 million was used, and this year's budget has been reduced to $43.7

million.

MR. COOPER:

Last year our salaries were lower than expected because of, again, vacancies. We

do have, as Susan referenced, a vacancy rate that vacillates between 7 per cent

and 10 per cent depending on the day you're looking. So we have vacancies during

the year. We have delays in filling positions. We have turnover in staff. I

guess 99 per cent of our salary money was spent in this area.

In terms of the question regarding why we're down in the

year to come. There are some adjustments made to the salary budget in relation

to some prior year decisions. Again, there are four positions that were reduced

as part of management restructuring.

We've

had to back out money related to the Labrador Allowance Reduction, because that

was retroactive pay we can't appropriate at this time. We've had zero-based

budgeting changed to anticipate vacancies that may occur throughout the year.

MS. PERRY:

So there are another four

positions, because the four positions

MR. COOPER:

No, I've already referenced the positions. This is just where they are showing

up.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Can you

give an explanation of why Employee Benefits went over budget by $65,000 last

year?

MR. COOPER:

Yes, we had employees with some lost time due to some medical issues. We had

some expenditures related to medical needs we had. So it was addressing some of

their requirements.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Can you

detail what is contained in the line item for Transportation and Communications,

and can you also elaborate on how $146,800 was saved last year and then this

year you're planning even further savings? We'll stop there and then I'll ask

(inaudible).

MR. COOPER:

We're down last year. Our revised budget is down not because of any one thing

but just because it's a large expenditure because this money is what is used

to support all of our staff in travelling to see clients throughout the

province. It supports all the other things you've heard telecommunication,

postage and courier throughout our 44 locations.

Essentially, this was just less expenditure than expected in the '16-'17 year.

We're down $206,000 going into this year. There's a reduction associated with

some prior-year budget decisions and we went through zero-based budgeting and

reduced our budgetary requirement by about $25,000 associated with that.

MS. PERRY:

Okay, so there's no

correlation to any kind of a decreased workload or anything that would explain

why staff travelled to the tune of $146,000 less than they did last year?

MR. COOPER:

No. I think, again, in this

area we're catching some of the change we're making in how we work. We're doing

more by distance delivery.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MR. COOPER:

So that's changing. You

might see there are more interactions with the courts that might be taking place

through phone or teleconferencing.

MS. PERRY:

Video conferencing.

MR. COOPER:

Right.

Some of

that is being caught there, but I can't tell you precisely. It's a big budget;

we've got a lot of staff. There's going to be some variance.

MS. PERRY:

Yes. And, of course, gas

costs have increased significantly.

MR. COOPER:

We would pay at the

established government mileage rate.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MR. COOPER:

Yeah.

MS. PERRY:

That's how you pay out.

Can you

give an account of how money was saved last year for Supplies