British Columbia Hansard — Wednesday, May 25, 2011

H0525pm-01

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session, 39th Parliament official rePort of Debates of the Legis Lative a ssemb Ly (hansarD) the honourable bill bari Soff, SPeaker iSSn 0709-1281 Wednesday, May 25, 2011 Afternoon Sitting Volume 23, Number 1

Pro Vince of britiS h colu Mbia (entered c onfederation July 20, 1871) lieutenant -Go Vernor h is h onour the h onourable Steven l.

Point, obc Third Session, 39th Parliament SPeaker of the leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y h onourable bill barisoff eXecutiVe council Premier and President of the executive c ouncil .............................................................................................................. h on. c hristy c lark Deputy Premier and Minister of finance ............................................................................................................................h on. k evin f alcon Minister of a boriginal r elations and r econciliation ...........................................................................................................h on.

Mary Polak Minister of a dvanced e ducation .................................................................................................................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto Minister of a griculture ........................................................................................................................................................... h on.

Don Mcr ae a ttorney General ........................................................................................................................................................... h on. barry Penner, Qc Minister of c hildren and f amily Development ................................................................................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Minister of c ommunity, Sport and cultural Development .................................................................................................. h on. ida c hong Minister of e ducation .........................................................................................................................................................h on.

George a bbott Minister of energy and Mines and Minister r esponsible for h ousing.........................................................................h on. r ich c oleman Minister of environment ....................................................................................................................................................h on. Dr. t erry l ake Minister of f orests, l ands and n atural r esource o perations......................................................................................h on.

Steve Thomson Minister of h ealth .................................................................................................................................................... h on. Michael de Jong, Qc Minister of Jobs, t ourism and innovation ................................................................................................................................... h on. Pat bell Minister of l abour, citizens' Services and o pen Government .............................................................................. h on.

Stephanie c adieux Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General .................................................................................................................h on.

Shirley bond Minister of Social Development and Minister r esponsible for Multiculturalism ............................................................ h on. h arry bloy Minister of t ransportation and infrastructure ................................................................................................................h on. blair l ekstrom leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y l eader of the official o pposition ......................................................................................................................................................a drian Dix Deputy Speaker .................................................................................................................................................................................... l inda r eid a ssistant Deputy Speaker ..................................................................................................................................................................Dawn black Deputy c hair, c ommittee of the Whole ...................................................................................................................................Douglas h orne c lerk of the l egislative a ssembly...................................................................................................................e.

George MacMinn, obc, Q c c lerk a ssistant ..................................................................................................................................................................................r obert Vaive c lerk a ssistant and l aw c lerk................................................................................................................................................. ian D. izard, Qc c lerk a ssistant and c lerk of c ommittees ............................................................................................................... craig h.

James (on leave) c lerk a ssistant and a cting c lerk of c ommittees ................................................................................................................. k ate r yan-l loyd Sergeant-at-a rms ................................................................................................................................................................................. Gary l enz

alP habetical liS t of MeMberS a bbott, h on. George (l) ........................................................................ Shuswap a ustin, r obin (nDP) ................................................................................ Skeena bains, h arry (nDP) ....................................................................Surrey-n ewton barisoff, h on. bill (l) ............................................................................Penticton barnett, Donna (l) ................................................................ c ariboo-c hilcotin bell, h on.

Pat (l) ..................................................... Prince George–Mackenzie bennett, bill (l) .............................................................................k ootenay e ast black, Dawn (nDP) ................................................................n ew Westminster black, iain (l) .............................................................. Port Moody–c oquitlam bloy, h on. h arry (l) ............................................................burnaby-l ougheed bond, h on.

Shirley (l) ...........................................Prince George–Valemount brar, Jagrup (nDP) ................................................................ Surrey-fleetwood c adieux, h on. Stephanie (l) ................................................Surrey-Panorama c antelon, r on (l) ..............................................................

Parksville-Qualicum c handra h erbert, Spencer (nDP) ................................Vancouver–West end c hong, h on. ida (l) ..................................................... o ak bay–Gordon h ead c houhan, r aj (nDP) ........................................................... burnaby-e dmonds c oell, Murray (l) ..............................................Saanich n orth and the islands c oleman, h on. r ich (l) ........................................... f ort l angley–a ldergrove c onroy, katrine (nDP) .............................................................. k ootenay West c oons, Gary (nDP) .........................................................................n orth c oast c orrigan, k athy (nDP) ..................................................... burnaby–Deer l ake Dalton, Marc (l) ..............................................................

Maple r idge–Mission de Jong, h on. Michael, Qc (l) .............................................. a bbotsford West Dix, a drian (nDP) ............................................................Vancouver-kingsway Donaldson, Doug (nDP) ......................................................................... Stikine e lmore, Mable (nDP) ................................................... Vancouver-kensington f alcon, h on. k evin (l) ..........................................................Surrey-c loverdale f arnworth, Mike (nDP) ............................................................

Port c oquitlam fleming, r ob (nDP) .......................................................... Victoria–Swan l ake f oster, eric (l) .......................................................................Vernon-Monashee f raser, Scott (nDP) ............................................................a lberni–Pacific r im Gentner, Guy (nDP) .........................................................................Delta n orth h ammell, Sue (nDP) .................................................... Surrey–Green t imbers h ansen, c olin (l) ............................................................

Vancouver-Quilchena h awes, r andy (l) ............................................................... a bbotsford-Mission h ayer, Dave S. (l) .................................................................... Surrey-t ynehead h eed, k ash (l) ................................................................ Vancouver-fraserview h ogg, Gordon (l) ............................................................... Surrey–White r ock h organ, John (nDP) .......................................................................

Juan de f uca h orne, Douglas (l) ..............................................c oquitlam–b urke Mountain h oward, r ob (l) .....................................................................r ichmond c entre h untington, Vicki (ind.) ..................................................................Delta South James, c arole (nDP) .........................................................Victoria–b eacon h ill k aragianis, Maurine (nDP) ........................................e squimalt–r oyal r oads k rog, l eonard (nDP) ........................................................................... n anaimo k rueger, kevin (l) ............................................... k amloops–South Thompson kwan, Jenny Wai ching (nDP) ...........................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant l ake, h on. Dr. t erry (l) .....................................k amloops–n orth Thompson l ali, h arry (nDP) ..........................................................................f raser-n icola l ee, r ichard t . (l) .......................................................................burnaby n orth l ekstrom, h on. blair (l) .......................................................

Peace r iver South l es, John (l) .........................................................................................c hilliwack l etnick, n orm (l) ........................................................k elowna–l ake c ountry MacDiarmid, Dr. Margaret (l) ......................................... Vancouver-fairview Macdonald, n orm (nDP) ....................................c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke Mcintyre, Joan (l) ..................................................West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Mcn eil, h on. Mary (l) .................................................Vancouver–f alse creek Mcr ae, h on.

Don (l) ................................................................... c omox Valley Mungall, Michelle (nDP) ..........................................................n elson-creston Penner, hon. barry, Qc (l) ....................................................c hilliwack-h ope Pimm, Pat (l) ..........................................................................Peace r iver n orth Polak, h on.

Mary (l) ...............................................................................l angley Popham, l ana (nDP) ...................................................................Saanich South r alston, bruce (nDP) ................................................................

Surrey-Whalley r eid, l inda (l) .............................................................................r ichmond e ast r outley, bill (nDP) .................................................................. c owichan Valley r outley, Doug (nDP) ............................................n anaimo–n orth c owichan r ustad, John (l) ........................................................................... n echako l akes Sather, Michael (nDP) ......................................... Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows Simons, n icholas (nDP) ...................................

Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast Simpson, bob (ind.) .....................................................................c ariboo n orth Simpson, Shane (nDP) .....................................................Vancouver-hastings Slater, John (l) ..............................................................boundary-Similkameen Stewart, ben (l) ..................................................................... Westside-kelowna Stilwell, Dr. Moira (l) ......................................................... Vancouver-l angara Sultan, r alph (l) .....................................................

West Vancouver–capilano Thomson, hon.

Steve (l) ........................................................k elowna-Mission Thorne, Diane (nDP) .................................................c oquitlam-Maillardville Thornthwaite, Jane (l) .......................................... n orth Vancouver–Seymour t revena, c laire (nDP) .................................................................... n orth island van Dongen, John (l) .............................................................a bbotsford South Y amamoto, hon. n aomi (l) ................................. n orth Vancouver–l onsdale Y ap, John (l) .......................................................................r ichmond-Steveston Vacant ...............................................................................Vancouver–Point Grey liS t of MeMberS bY riD in G a bbotsford-Mission .......................................................................r andy h awes a bbotsford South .....................................................................John van Dongen a bbotsford West ......................................................h on.

Michael de Jong, Qc a lberni–Pacific r im ..........................................................................

Scott f raser boundary-Similkameen .....................................................................John Slater burnaby–Deer l ake ................................................................... k athy c orrigan burnaby-e dmonds ......................................................................... r aj c houhan burnaby-l ougheed ...................................................................h on. h arry bloy burnaby n orth .............................................................................. r ichard t . l ee c ariboo-c hilcotin ........................................................................Donna barnett c ariboo n orth ................................................................................ bob Simpson c hilliwack ...............................................................................................

John l es c hilliwack-h ope .......................................................... h on. barry Penner, Qc c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke .................................................. n orm Macdonald c omox Valley...........................................................................h on. Don Mcr ae c oquitlam–b urke Mountain .....................................................Douglas h orne c oquitlam-Maillardville...............................................................

Diane Thorne c owichan Valley ................................................................................ bill r outley Delta n orth ......................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ...............................................................................Vicki h untington e squimalt–r oyal r oads .....................................................Maurine k aragianis f ort l angley–a ldergrove ...................................................h on. r ich c oleman f raser-n icola........................................................................................ h arry l ali Juan de f uca .....................................................................................John h organ k amloops–n orth Thompson ............................................ h on.

Dr. t erry l ake k amloops–South Thompson ...................................................... k evin k rueger k elowna–l ake c ountry ...............................................................n orm l etnick k elowna-Mission .............................................................. h on.

Steve Thomson k ootenay e ast ....................................................................................bill bennett k ootenay West ............................................................................ k atrine c onroy l angley.......................................................................................h on. Mary Polak Maple r idge–Mission .....................................................................

Marc Dalton Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows ........................................................Michael Sather n anaimo ......................................................................................... l eonard k rog n anaimo–n orth c owichan ......................................................... Doug r outley n echako l akes ..................................................................................

John r ustad n elson-creston ........................................................................Michelle Mungall n ew Westminster ..............................................................................Dawn black n orth c oast....................................................................................... Gary c oons n orth island .................................................................................. c laire t revena n orth Vancouver–l onsdale ........................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto n orth Vancouver–Seymour .................................................

Jane Thornthwaite o ak bay–Gordon h ead ............................................................ h on. ida c hong Parksville-Qualicum ..................................................................... r on c antelon Peace r iver n orth ................................................................................Pat Pimm Peace r iver South ...............................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Penticton................................................................................... h on. bill barisoff Port c oquitlam ..........................................................................Mike f arnworth Port Moody–c oquitlam ...................................................................... iain black Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast ................................................. n icholas Simons Prince George–Mackenzie .............................................................h on.

Pat bell Prince George–Valemount ...................................................h on. Shirley bond r ichmond c entre ............................................................................ r ob h oward r ichmond e ast ................................................................................... l inda r eid r ichmond-Steveston ..............................................................................John Y ap Saanich n orth and the islands .....................................................

Murray c oell Saanich South ................................................................................ l ana Popham Shuswap ...............................................................................h on.

George a bbott Skeena .............................................................................................. r obin a ustin Stikine ........................................................................................Doug Donaldson Surrey-c loverdale .................................................................h on. k evin f alcon Surrey-fleetwood ...............................................................................Jagrup brar Surrey–Green t imbers ..................................................................Sue h ammell Surrey-n ewton ................................................................................. h arry b ains Surrey-Panorama ........................................................ h on.

Stephanie c adieux Surrey-t ynehead ........................................................................... Dave S. h ayer Surrey-Whalley.............................................................................. bruce r alston Surrey–White r ock ....................................................................... Gordon h ogg Vancouver-fairview ................................................ Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid Vancouver–f alse creek ........................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Vancouver-fraserview ........................................................................k ash h eed Vancouver-hastings ....................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-kensington .................................................................Mable e lmore Vancouver-kingsway..........................................................................a drian Dix Vancouver-l angara .................................................................Dr.

Moira Stilwell Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ..........................................Jenny Wai ching kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ...............................................................................Vacant Vancouver-Quilchena ................................................................... c olin h ansen Vancouver–West end ...............................................Spencer c handra h erbert Vernon-Monashee ...............................................................................eric f oster Victoria–b eacon h ill .......................................................................c arole James Victoria–Swan l ake.........................................................................r ob fleming West Vancouver–capilano ............................................................. r alph Sultan West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ........................................................

Joan Mcintyre Westside-kelowna .............................................................................ben Stewart Party Standings: l iberal 48; n ew Democratic 34; independent 2; Vacant 1

CONTENTS Wednesday, May 25, 2011 a fternoon Sitting Page Routine Business introductions by Members ..................................................................................................................................................... 7373 Statements (Standing order 25b) ......................................................................................................................................... 7373 a ddiction recovery program M.

Dalton a sian h eritage Month M. e lmore immigrant entrepreneurs r . l ee bob beckett J. h organ r esource roads b. bennett Women's involvement in video game sector M. Mungall oral Questions ......................................................................................................................................................................... 7375 Government changes to harmonized sales tax a. Di x h on. k. f alcon impact of harmonized sales tax reduction b. r alston h on. k. f alcon Government changes to harmonized sales tax c. Jame s h on. k. f alcon D.

Donaldson J. kwan Petitions .................................................................................................................................................................................... 7380 J. h organ n otice of Motions .................................................................................................................................................................... 7380 Government response to reports by Judges c ompensation and Judicial Justices c ompensation commissions h on. b.

Penner Orders of the Day c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 7380 e stimates: Ministry of h ealth (continued) h on. M. de Jong M. f arnworth J. brar D. Donaldson S. c handra h erbert M. Sather h. b ains k. c onroy V . huntington

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 7407 e stimates: Ministry of c ommunity, Sport and cultural Development h on. i. c hong h. l ali V . huntington S. f raser k. c orrigan G. Gentner S. c handra h erbert M. Sather

7373 WeD neSD a Y , MaY 25, 2011 The h ouse met at 1:34 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Routine Business Prayers. [1335] Introductions by Members Hon. M. de Jong: We're joined in the chamber today by two friends, Jack and Jean r obertson. n ow, members will know that i have great respect for anyone who has taken the step of tying the knot and embarking upon the matrimonial journey. i stand in awe of any couple that has taken that step and stuck to it for 60 years, which is what Jack and Jean celebrated this past weekend — 60 years of matrimonial bliss.

They are here today with two friends who are visit - ing from Scotland, t om and Muriel l ind, and i know all members will want to make the diamond jubilee couple feel very welcome today. B. Routley: We have in the h ouse today a longtime friend of mine and working buddy. brian butler is here today. h e's currently the first vice-president of l ocal 1937 of the Steelworkers. but when brian and i started out back in the '80s….

Well, for brian, it was early '90s. h e came out of the c owichan bay mill, a hard- working steelworker that represented forest workers on Vancouver island and now represents forest workers all the way from the border in Washington State right up to a laska. With that, i would ask that you join with me in wel - coming my buddy and brother, brian butler. J. Y ap: i have a number of guests in the gallery i would like to introduce to the h ouse. first of all, two good friends and constituents, Pius and cindy c han, are here with us.

They are accompanying a delegation from c hina, from Jiangsu province specifically. c hairman h uang Dong f eng is here, leading a delega- tion to attend a venture capital conference in Vancouver. h e is the chairman of the Jiangsu international t rust c orp., which is the investment arm of the provincial government of Jiangsu province. c hairman h uang is also a vice-minister in the provincial government of Jiangsu province. With c hairman h uang are t ang n ing, l u Zhen Dong, l in h ong and Paul l eavitt, all from n anjing in Jiangsu. Would the h ouse please give a warm welcome to our guests. Hon. T.

Lake: t wo of our colleagues from the Ministry of environment have come over to the l egislature today to watch today's proceedings — their first time in the h ouse — and they're very excited to be here for ques - tion period. i'd like to introduce two gentlemen: David l awes, the head of the community waste reduction section, en - vironmental quality branch; and Jim Standen, another k amloopsian, who is assistant deputy minister of en - vironmental protection and assurance division. Would the house please make them welcome. Hon. G. Abbott: in the Speaker's gallery today is Professor Paddy Smith.

Paddy is a distinguished pro - fessor of political science at Simon f raser u niversity. h e has also for several years now been the academic director and has done a terrific job with the legislative internship program. i'd ask the h ouse to please make him welcome. R. Austin: Joining us in the gallery today is a young lady returning for her first visit, a ngie r iano. She was a legislative intern here last year, helping us on the oppos- ition side. She's now studying the law at the u niversity of a lberta, and this is her first visit back. So give her a warm welcome.

Statements (Standing Order 25B) aDD iction reco Ver Y Pro GraM M. Dalton: i recently had the privilege to attend the seventh anniversary of c elebrate r ecovery in Maple r idge. c elebrate r ecovery exists to serve the com - munities of Pitt Meadows and Maple r idge and meets every f riday evening at St.

John the Divine a nglican under the auspices of the r idge Meadows Ministerial a ssociation. [1340] celebrate r ecovery provides a safe place for people from all different economic and cultural backgrounds to grow in their recovery by working through eight recovery principles and 12 steps while recognizing Jesus c hrist as their higher power and restorer from the devastation of addiction, depression and dysfunctional relationships. c elebrate r ecovery's small groups meet weekly for those who struggle with a similar hurt, habit or hangup.

Groups are led by trained facilitators and offer a safe place for people to be honest about areas where they hurt or experience defeat. a nonymity and confidential- ity are basic requirements of the group. c elebrate r ecovery support groups are located across british c olumbia and around the world and have their ori- gins in the Saddleback c hurch with Pastor r ick Warren, author of The Purpose Driven Life, an all-time bestseller.

british c olumbia Debates7374 Wednesday, May 25, 2011 c elebrate r ecovery is a place to share. it's a refuge and a place of belonging where many experience a turn- ing point in their lives. n umerous volunteers have kept c elebrate r ecovery strong, including program direc - tor c arol k eating and her husband, barry; Mike and bernadette Sleeman; Paul and Micheline Surridge; l inda l ambie; Susan k aliczak; c heryl c loutier; l orne h avisto; and other newer team members. They provide a labour of love in a ministry that has been a source of healing for so many.

Would the h ouse please join me in expressing appreciation for the work of c elebrate r ecovery across this province. a Sian herita Ge Month M. Elmore: May is a sian h eritage Month, and the month of May is officially recognized as such, a month dedicated to acknowledging the long and rich his - tory and continued growth of a sian c anadians.

We celebrate the diversity within the community and the contributions made by a sian c anadians towards cre - ating the c anada we know today and the new c anada of tomorrow. a sian c anadians have been instrumental in contribut- ing to the areas of arts, sciences, business, environment, government, strengthening the ethnic cultural capital and so much more. a cross b.c. many communities hold festivals and events in honour of this month.

The Vancouver a sian h eritage Month Society is hosting the explora sian f estival, inviting the wider community to experience the diversity of a sian-c anadian life and ex - plore a sian-c anadian arts and culture.

While we celebrate the many achievements and ac - complishments, there also remain many challenges to overcome — regressive changes to c anada's immigra - tion laws, justice for temporary foreign workers and the need to improve the recognition of foreign credentials in order to address the full economic and social integra- tion of newcomers in c anada. a s May comes to an end, there are still several events being held to further educate and celebrate a sian h eritage Month. i encourage you all to come out and enjoy a cultural presentation or artist exhibition and really experience a unique facet of british c olumbia's diverse population. iMMi Grant entreP reneurS R.

Lee: o n Wednesday, May 18, the e thno business c ouncil of b.c . hosted the 18th annual n ew-c anadian e ntrepreneur a wards in Vancouver. We all know how important the contributions of new immigrants are to our economy and cultural diversity here in b.c. f or 23 years the council has provided a place for new c anadian entrepreneurs to share information, cre - ate awareness and work together to support each other. The n ew-c anadian entrepreneur a wards commemor- ate the importance of small and medium multicultural businesses in b.c., celebrating the achievements of new c anadian entrepreneurs.

This year's winners are a very noteworthy group of people. Don Yuen, the founder of f airway Market, was the winner of the l ifetime a chievement award. Don started working in the grocery business in 1950 and opened his first store in 1963. h is ten stores are now lo- cated from Victoria to Port a lberni.

The winners in other categories were: in manufactur - ing, azar Moayeri for her business Parissa, one of the top natural brands in the world; in export, Joshua h uen for Dr. battery, a brand which is in 25 countries; in retail, the k arim family for innh ouse Group of c ompanies, one of the top-ten fastest-growing companies in b.c.; in service, Mohammed Y asin for M.

Y asin and c o.; in tech- nology, r iaz Pisani for c ontac Services; and in wholesale, John l lewellyn for c eltic Distributors. [1345] These entrepreneurs have contributed to our society with their innovative ideas, financial investments and excellent services, creating many jobs in b.c. for b.c.'s families. i encourage all members to join me in acknow- ledging the impressive contributions of these individuals, who've shown excellence in their businesses, personality, leadership and community involvement. bob beckett J.

Horgan: a ll members have individuals in their community that just give that extra bit, that go that extra mile. h ere in the capital region cfaX 1070 acknow - ledges those community leaders every year, and this year's community leader is from my community, c hief bob beckett, the fire chief in the city of l angford. i want to rise today and speak a little about Mr. beckett.

Many members of this place will know him. h e started his career abroad and then became a firefighter in the city of Waterloo in 1974. f rom there he became a volunteer in other communities. h e's been a paramedic in war-torn Sarajevo and came to the city of l angford in 1996.

When tragedy struck in n ew Y ork on September 11, 2001, c hief beckett, along with c onst. bruce brown from the rcMP detachment in l angford and Mayor Stew Y oung visited n ew Y ork and brought money that had been raised on the West Shore to assist families of a mericans killed during that tragedy. bob has been instrumental in the success of coopera - tive efforts between r otary clubs, the c anadian military, the city of l angford and l angford fire r escue in bring- ing much-needed equipment and expertise to k abul and k andahar during the activities in a fghanistan. it's things like that that separate c hief bob beckett from others in our community.

british c olumbia DebatesWednesday, May 25, 2011 7375 Most recently he's returned from his fourth visit to h aiti, where he and others have been building a new orphanage so that those that were affected by the earth - quake last year will have a roof over their heads and a bed to sleep in. i want to raise my attention and the attention of all members to individuals like bob beckett in the city of l angford and people like him right across british c olumbia who continue to give and give and give and who are, as cfaX 1070 acknowledged this year, truly community leaders. re Source roa DS B.

Bennett: i am speaking today about b.c .'s 400,000 kilometres of resource roads and the hundreds of thou - sands of british c olumbians who use them and enjoy them — british c olumbians who prospect for min - erals, ranch, fish, hunt, hike, trap, guide, photograph, mountain-bike, berry-pick, mushroom-pick, camp, geocache, quad or snowmobile, and probably for many other purposes as well. r esource roads are mostly built by the forest industry, with some important exceptions, mostly in the northeast. When the company is using the road, it is responsible to maintain the resource road.

When the company no longer needs the road, it is typically obligated to decom- mission the road. if there is a solid environmental reason why the road should be decommissioned, then of course i support that. h owever, too many resource roads are being de - stroyed unnecessarily. r esource roads have evolved into platforms for broad rural economic growth, such as nature-based tourism, mineral exploration, trapping, guide-outfitting, outdoor recreation. british c olumbians are very passionate about their mountain-biking, their horseback-riding, their hik - ing, their hunting, their fishing, their camping, their quadding, their snowmobiling and their berry-picking.

When the road to your favourite trail or favourite fish - ing spot is closed for no apparent environmental benefit, british c olumbians are…. Well, let's just say they're disappointed. This recreation has a significant economic value as well; 270,000 freshwater anglers from b.c. spend over a half-billion dollars every year, and 70 percent of that is spent in rural british c olumbia. at V use — 12 percent annually and increasing.

The average at V recreationalist spends seven nights in rented accommodation each year. in the Valemount- Mcbride region, where the Solicitor General is from, 20,000 to 25,000 snowmobilers — tourists, actually — bring their a lberta dollars to this region each winter, and they use eight resource roads.

The point is that the public use of resource roads has changed dramatically, and our approaches to managing these roads needs some review. i'll be looking forward to working with the Minister of f orests, l ands and n atural r esource o perations to ensure that our management of resource roads supports the diversified use and enjoy - ment by british c olumbians. [1350] Wo Men'S inV ol VeMent in ViDeo GaMe Sector M. Mungall: Well, like many girls in the 1980s, i was glued to my a tari playing Ms.

Pac-Man. by the time i was ten years old, t etris was on the scene, with n intendo entertainment systems and n intendo Game boys. Y ou can bet that my hand-held game device was called a Game Girl. Despite many gamers being female, we are still the minority, not unlike in this h ouse. of no coincidence, most video games are developed by and for boys. n ot only is this totally unfair and absolutely not much fun, but it impacts girls' future interest in the tech sector, which is a growing part of our economy. n ever fear, though.

We have two superheroines to res- cue us from this drab situation for girl gamers. brenda bailey Gershkovitch and k irsten f orbes are Silicon Sisters interactive, c anada's first female-owned and -operated video game company. This past a pril they launched a video game for girls. School 26 is the duo's first release and is now available for iPads, iPhones, Pcs, Macs and a ndroid phones.

The game's main character is k ate, a student whose nomadic family has made it difficult for her to main - tain long-term friendships. a s she enrols in her 26th new school, she and her parents strike a deal. if k ate makes good friends here, the family will stay put. n ow the player must help k ate use intuition, empathy and strategy to build friendships and navigate the moral di - lemmas of high school. l ast month i visited with the Silicon Sisters and played my first game of School 26. n ow, while de - signed for girls age 12 to 16, i know any woman would enjoy the opportunity to go back to high school with all that she knows now.

So here's to girl gamers and girl power and to the Silicon Sisters for making us a video game. Oral Questions Go VernMent chan GeS to harM oniZeD SaleS taX A. Dix: My question is to the Minister of finance. i don't know which of the troika of economic destruction he is today, but in any event, this is a straightforward question to him. h e'll know that Premier c lark said on March 21…. i know that was early in her reign.

british c olumbia Debates7376 Wednesday, May 25, 2011 She said: "We aren't going to be talking about trying to reduce it by a point or two" — referring to the hS t — "before the referendum. i mean, i think people will see that as buying them with their own money." it's been a long two months. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Member, just take your seat for a second. c ontinue, Member. A. Dix: i almost feel like reading that quote again. Will the Minister of finance not agree that that's exactly what the government is doing today? Hon. K.

Falcon: a ctually, what this Premier has done is make sure that we follow through on her com - mitment to raise the minimum wage, which has been done as committed. [1355] This Premier followed through on her commitment to move forward the referendum date from September to June, which has been done. a nd this Premier directed myself and my colleagues to engage in the largest listen- ing exercise ever held in the history of the province of british c olumbia. The result of all that is that we listened, but didn't just listen.

We responded by committing to march down the hS t rate to 10 percent to improve it for every family in every income bracket in british c olumbia. That's what we did on this side of the h ouse. Mr. Speaker: The l eader of the o pposition has a supplemental. A. Dix: i just don't think the minister heard my ques - tion at all. i don't think he heard it at all. h e said in the leadership campaign… interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. A. Dix: …that Premier c lark had a ready-fire-aim ap- proach to policy-making.

Y ou know, he is the Minister of f inance. i know he's the Minister of finance and all. h e's managed to spend the forecast allowance in the contingency fund for four years today. That's what he did. That's what he did today. c an he possibly explain, given all that he's said over the last little while, this extraordinary set of gimmicks and magic today that he's produced? c an he possibly explain to the people of b.c. why he's attempting to buy votes in a referendum campaign, when he should be acting respon- sibly in the interests of the people of b.c.? Hon. K. Falcon: it's remarkable.

We engage in a con- sultation process. o ver 275,000 british columbians participated, and one of the common threads of that dis- cussion was a request from the public to make sure that we reduce or minimize the impact of h St . n ot only did we do that…. We not only eliminated the $350 cost for aver- age families; we actually improved it, to the point where they're $120 ahead, on average, for british columbians.

Y ou know, for this l eader of the o pposition, who was chief of staff to a government that ran eight successive deficit budgets, missed every single budget target they set, stopped producing budget plans because they were so em- barrassed by their record…. f or him to talk about fiscal credibility is truly the highlight of this question period. Mr. Speaker: The l eader of the o pposition has fur - ther supplemental. A. Dix: The 2009 election. The Minister of finance and all of them over there said: "We're not going to bring in the hS t ." a year later they brought in a budget.

They said that every penny, every centime, every peso, every ruble will go to health care. e very ruble will go to health care. That's what they said. a nd now, hon. Speaker, can you believe it? c an you believe this nonsense? The people of b.c. had the largest consultation ever on the hS t . They signed initiatives. it's their referen - dum. Why doesn't the Minister of finance admit today that he's trying to take that right away from them, trying to buy a referendum with public funds? Why doesn't he withdraw the hS t? interjections. Mr. Speaker: Just wait, Minister. [1400] Hon. K.

Falcon: Well, this is ridiculous. We not only are not taking away the right to vote…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: c ontinue, Minister. Hon. K. Falcon: i'm glad to see them applaud so heartily on their own ridiculousness. i'll figure that one out later. n evertheless, let me just say this. i get that this might be uncomfortable for the l eader of the o pposition. i get that he doesn't like the fact that we listened to british c olumbians. We've improved the hS t , and i have no doubt that he is entirely uncomfortable with the fact that he is go - ing to be advocating and campaigning on a 12 percent PSt plus GS t .

We are campaigning on retaining a tax

british c olumbia DebatesWednesday, May 25, 2011 7377 that every independent expert says is the right way to go, and we're marching it down to 10 percent. That is the clear difference. i will also say this in closing on this question. i am quite happy to put our record of fiscal accountability and our triple-a credit rating up against eight consecutive deficits, multiple credit-rating downgrades and the dis - aster that the nDP government was in the 1990s. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. iMPact of har Moni Ze D Sale S ta X re Duction B.

Ralston: l et me turn once again to another recent quote from the Premier during the b.c. l iberal leader- ship campaign. "c utting the h St by 1 point is more than $800 million out of the budget this year and every year after, $1.6 billion for a 2-point cut, and we need to ask ourselves where we're going to get that money, because we're either going to have a $1.6-billion-bigger deficit, or we're going to get $1.6 billion fewer heart operations, special needs teachers, school facilities, hospital emergency rooms. i mean, that's where the money comes from, ultimately.

So yes, the government could cut it, but at what cost to citizens?" So british columbians are now warned to expect program cuts, but the question is when. Will those an - nouncements be made before the h ouse adjourns? Will they be made before the next election or, probably more true to form, hidden during the next election campaign? Hon. K. Falcon: The finance critic was actually at the lockup today and got to listen to exactly how that is go - ing to be done within the context of a balanced budget. but what i find very interesting is that what he did not talk about is their own option.

Y ou see, the n DP preferred option is to go back to a 12 percent PSt plus GSt , knowing full well that that has an over $3 billion hit to the fiscal plan negatively just within this three-year period. That's the nDP opposition plan. i can tell you that what we demonstrated today very clearly is that an improved hS t — even marching it down to 10 percent, even with the transition payments that will be going out to families with children and low- and modest-income seniors — is still financially much more responsible, much more sound than going back to the nDP's preferred option of a 12 percent PSt and GS t .

That's what we demonstrated today. [1405] Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. B. Ralston: Well, it's clear from the answer of the Minister of finance that he'll do anything, say anything to avoid defending his own Premier. Mr. t ostenson, the ceo of the r estaurant and f oodservices a ssociation, said today that the fix that was announced today doesn't help his members. h e said, referring to the b.c . l iberals: " i think they are mad at us." o n top of this, the government is increasing taxes for small business.

Why is the minister asking small business to bear a disproportionate burden of covering up this govern - ment's lies and deceptions? interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. before we continue, i want to remind the member to choose his words more carefully. Hon. K. Falcon: Well, now we are going truly into the area of bizarro. The fact that this member is asking that question is unbelievable. l et's just recap for a moment the choice that british c olumbians have.

The choice is a prudent, responsible marching-down of the rate to 10 percent and transition payments for families with children, $175 for each and every child — a typical family has two children; that's $350 — and, of course, $175 for low-income and modest- income seniors, up to $40,000. That is one choice. The other choice is the n DP , so let's recap their option. Go back to a 12 percent PS t plus GSt . r eimposing the PSt is one of the most damaging things that you can do to the business community. That's number one.

We also know from the l eader of the o pposition's previous com- ments that he wants to roll back tax rates to 2008 — that means an 80 percent increase in the small business tax rate, a 20 percent increase in the general corporate tax rate — and reimpose the PS t on small business. That is a recipe for economic devastation. This is a sound policy that i believe british c olumbians will support, as opposed to the thoughtless, ridiculous option that the nDP leader is putting forward for british c olumbians. Go VernMent chan GeS to harM oniZeD SaleS taX C.

James: f or this finance Minister to call this b.c. l iberal direction on the hS t sound fiscal policy would be laughable if families weren't being hurt every day by this tax in this province. f amilies in b.c . are going to take a look at the b.c . l iberal record on the h St . They told the public that they wouldn't bring it in before the election. in fact, they even put it in writing. What happened after the election? They brought in the h St . They said it would be revenue-neutral. Well, now it's not going to be revenue-neutral anymore.

They told consumers that they would save dollars, and now they're paying more.

british c olumbia Debates7378 Wednesday, May 25, 2011 it's clear that the b.c. l iberals can't be trusted, espe - cially on the hS t . t o the finance Minister: why should the public trust them now? Hon. K.

Falcon: a s you know, the member for Victoria–b eacon h ill was in this l egislature when we canvassed the fact…. in the fall 2009 budget update, it was stated very clearly: initially revenue-neutral, but growing revenues in the future. budget 2010, budget 2011 — they all said the same thing. i am very interested in the fact that the members just a week ago were hitting us over the head over the independent panel report. They were quoting from it, pointing out correctly that the independent panel pointed out that the average family will see a $350 aver - age annual cost as a result of the hS t .

What she conveniently overlooked in her question was that, under the plan that we put in place today, that turns from a $350 cost to a $120 benefit for every family, on average, in british c olumbia. [1410] i will also point out two additional things. it in - cludes transition payments to families with children of $175 for each child, and it also includes maintaining the $230 rebate that we provide to every low-income british c olumbian. in spite of the reduction of the h St , that still maintains that $230. l ower-income families, in particu- lar, are even further ahead under this approach. Mr.

Speaker: The member has a supplemental. C. James: Didn't anyone on that side of the h ouse, didn't any b.c. l iberal, learn anything from bringing in the hS t? The public wants the truth. The public have had enough of the b.c. l iberal spin. The government is trying to convince the public that a bad tax is good for them, using the public's own money. Well, the public has had enough of the hS t . They've had enough of the b.c. l iberals. They've had enough of that spin. My question to the finance Minister: when will he stop playing games with the referendum? Hon. K.

Falcon: a ctually, what we did was we went out and we listened to the public, and we responded to what we heard from the public — 275,000 british c olumbians taking

part in the largest listening exer - cise in the history of the province. i'm proud of not only undertaking that exercise at the direction of our Premier but also responding to what we heard, and what we heard from british c olumbians is that they want us to minimize the impact of the hS t . We've not only minimized it; we've eliminated it. We've made it better for every family in british c olumbia, regardless of income bracket, and in particu- lar, for lower-income british c olumbians.

The approach that the nDP want to do and will be campaigning on is going back to a 12 percent PSt plus GS t with no rebates for children and only a $75 PS t rebate for adults. They can go ahead and campaign on that. We will be going forward with what we heard from the public: improve the hS t . We've done that. D. Donaldson: Well, we hear talk of listening. l et me tell you that the people of the province are listening right now. a ll they're hearing from this government is a des - perate attempt to save the hS t at any cost. f irst, it was no h St before the election.

Then they all voted for the hS t after the election. They said it would be revenue-neutral; now it's not. Then it was going to save the economy. t oday we learned from the Premier's desperate announcements that it will cost billions to the people in this province — billions to buy their vote on the h St with their own money. o ne thing is clear: families will be paying for this govern - ment's deceitful behaviour on the h St for years to come. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. c ontinue, Member. D.

Donaldson: Given that they are grasping at ways to save their tax at any cost, would the Minister of finance agree that his b.c. l iberal government cannot be trusted on anything they say about the hS t? Hon. K.

Falcon: Well, by the very nature of that question, it demonstrates very clearly that the mem - ber for Stikine has not even read some of the most fundamental elements of the information that was presented today. [1415] When that member talks about impacts in the billions of dollars, he actually is referring to his own preferred plan of going back to the PS t plus GS t — a $3 billion hit, a negative hit, to the provincial finances under that member's preferred option. n ow, i am quite happy to compare our record of fis - cal credibility, our triple-a credit rating, that we have on this side of the h ouse — the fact that we meet our budget targets, the fact that we delivered on 37 per - cent income tax reductions in british c olumbia that they voted against, on the fact that we marched the general corporate tax rate from 16½ to 10 percent, the fact that we took the small business rate from 4½ to 2½ percent.

They voted against every single one of those tax re - ductions, and now they're going to push for an option that is going to see a 12 percent PSt plus GSt . Well,

british c olumbia DebatesWednesday, May 25, 2011 7379 i would gladly put our improved h St up against that any day of the week. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. The member has a supplemental. D. Donaldson: Well, the minister brings up the eco - nomic record.

The c onference board of c anada today says: "b .c.'s economy is in a lull." We are "the excep - tion," they say, "to an otherwise strong economy across western c anada." n ow we hear today that the gimmicky announcements that are announced by this govern - ment are going to cause small businesses to pay more than $280 million a year in taxes. it's a chaotic tax policy made up on the fly in the last few weeks. c onsidering our economy is in a lull, can the finance Minister explain how billions of dollars in costs they an- nounced today in a desperate attempt to save the hS t is an example of good financial management?

Hon. K. Falcon: Well, first of all, the member talks about a lull. l et's talk about: in the tank in the 1990s, when we actually became a have-not province, for the first time in our history, under your government. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. c ontinue, Minister. Hon. K.

Falcon: i'll be charitable to the member. i don't believe the member for Stikine actually under - stands what the leader of his own party has said with respect to his business tax plans. h e has actually said…. h ere, let's recap what the n DP want to do: (1) they want to move back to a 12 percent PS t plus GS t , (2) they want to raise small business taxes by 80 percent, and (3) they want to raise the general corporate tax rate by 12 percent.

That is an economic trifecta that will devastate and demolish confidence in the small business community from one end of this province to the other. i will put our record of economic accomplishment up against the nDP's any day of the week. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. J. Kwan: it is actually the Minister of f inance who doesn't understand what his own Premier is doing. l et's just actually review her words. Premier c lark said in March that she's against buying people's votes with their own money. That's what she said. n ow to - day, of course, the government announces the fix to the h St .

So with the fix today, the Premier is trying to buy people's votes. [1420] Will the Minister of finance just admit that the b.c. l iberals are trying to buy b.c . taxpayers' votes, or is the Premier just misleading british columbians once again? Hon. K. Falcon: a ctually, this is a Premier that moved forward the referendum date from September up to June. This is a Premier that oversaw the largest listen- ing exercise with british c olumbians on how we might improve the hS t . This is a Premier that always made it clear that any improvement would have to be done within the context of a balanced budget.

That's exactly what has been delivered today. What i find so fascinating is that the member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant, one of the architects of one of the worst governments in the history of the province of british c olumbia, wants, for her constitu - ents, to go back to a PSt plus GSt of 12 percent, ignore the improvements that a lower rate of 10 percent would provide for every single british c olumbian, especially low-income british c olumbians, and the rebate that is provided under h St which disappears under the PSt . i find that fascinating. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. J.

Kwan: a ctually, this is a Premier who said she that was against the referendum vote and wanted the b.c . l iberals to vote against the h St in this l egislature, in the h ouse. o ops, oops. That was then, and this is now. Then, of course, she said: "o h well, we don't want to buy british c olumbians' votes with the hS t ." but that was then, and this is now. l et us just look at this for a second. a fter the 2009 election the b.c . l iberals misled british c olumbians about the h St . Premier Gordon c ampbell — what did he do? h e actually…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. J.

Kwan: Premier Gordon c ampbell then tried to buy british c olumbians' votes with a 15 percent tax cut after the election. Guess what. That worked like a lead balloon. h ere we are once again, the same playbook. Will the Minister of finance just admit for once that the Premier is trying to mislead british c olumbians once again, and will he also just acknowledge that british c olumbians will not be fooled once again? Hon. K. Falcon: a ctually, this is a Premier who followed through on her commitment to increase the minimum

british c olumbia Debates7380 Wednesday, May 25, 2011 wage. This is a Premier who followed through on her commitment to restore gaming grants. This is a Premier who followed through on her commitment to move for- ward the referendum date.

This is a Premier who followed through on her plan to put forward a bold improvement to the h St , to improve the h St based on what we heard from british columbians. a nd this is a Premier that said we would do it within the context of a balanced budget. i will put this Premier's record and this commitment to march that rate down to 10 percent with transition payments for families, with transition payments for seniors up against the nDP plan to campaign for a 12 percent GSt plus PS t , with an 80 percent increase in the small business tax rate, a 20 percent increase in the general corporate tax rate any day of the week. interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members, we didn't hear the bell, but it did end question period. [end of question period.] J. Horgan: i'd like to table a petition. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. Petitions J. Horgan: i have a petition signed by 116 residents of the l ower Mainland concerned about the health ef - fects of the results of using wireless technology.

The petition calls on the government to repeal those sec - tions of the c lean e nergy a ct currently mandating smart meters for b.c . residents until such time as the u tilities c ommission can deploy wired, smart-meter systems standard using wired connections and com - munications of monitoring. [1425] interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Notice of Motions Go VernMent reSPonS e to rePort S bY JuDGeS co MPenSation anD JuD icial Ju Stice S co MPen Sation co MMiSSion S Hon. B. Penner: i rise to advise the h ouse… interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. c ontinue, a ttorney. Hon. B.

Penner: …that i have tabled today a notice of motion in my name containing the response of the gov- ernment to the final report of the 2010 british c olumbia Judges c ompensation c ommission accepting eight of the 15 recommendations and rejecting the balance, as well as a document setting out the reasons for the gov - ernment's response to the report. i also tabled a notice of motion in my name con - taining the response of the government to the report and recommendations of the 2010 Judicial Justices c ompensation c ommission accepting four of the ten recommendations and rejecting the balance, and a fur - ther document setting out the reasons for government's response to that report.

Orders of the Day Hon. R. Coleman: i don't think i can make the next little piece as exciting as what we just viewed. in this h ouse i'm sure the critic and the minister will actually raise the bar this afternoon, as the Ministry of h ealth continues its debates in the big h ouse. in c om- mittee a we will be doing the estimates of the Ministry of c ommunity, Sport and cultural Development. [1430] Committee of Supply e Sti Mate S: Mini Str Y of health (continued) The h ouse in c ommittee of Supply (Section b); l. r eid in the chair.

The committee met at 2:31 p.m. on Vote 32: ministry operations, $15,566,169,000 (continued). Hon. M. de Jong: When we were engaged in the dis - cussion yesterday, one of the hon. critic's colleagues — i believe, the member for Stikine — posed some questions about the situation in Dease l ake, about the airport. Maybe i'll wait to see if the member for Stikine arrives, and if he does, i'll take advantage of the opportunity to alert him to what we have discovered. M. Farnworth: i appreciate my hon. colleague's comments, and we will make sure that the member for Stikine has an opportunity to hear.

This afternoon some of my colleagues will want to continue on from yesterday where we were talking about facilities. c olleagues will be doing that. Then we'll go back to the main critic-minister discussion. With that, i know my colleague from Surrey-Panorama — no, Surrey-t ynehead…. o h, fleetwood.

british c olumbia DebatesWednesday, May 25, 2011 7381 The Chair: i recognize the member for Surrey- fleetwood, but thanks for your help. J. Brar: i would like to ask a question about the out-patient facility being built in Surrey. a ctually, the Minister of h ealth fell in love with the city of Surrey for quite a while, for quite some time. i know that the minister goes to the city of Surrey every f riday to deliver a talk show, and i'm sure the minister under - stands very clearly the health care needs of the people of Surrey. i would like to ask very brief questions.

The first ques- tion is around the out-patient facility. in 2005 the f raser h ealth a uthority submitted a report to the Minister of h ealth. a key recommendation in that report was to build a new out-patient facility to meet the health care needs of the people of Surrey. Subsequently the then Minister of h ealth went to Surrey and embraced that recommendation, saying that the government actually will work on that. Subsequent to that, the Premier went to Surrey and made the announcement that the government is go - ing to build the out-patient facility.

My understanding is that that facility is quite ready and that there may be a ribbon-cutting ceremony in the near future. i would like to ask the minister: when will the new out-patient facility be ready for operation, and what are the staffing requirements to run that facility? Hon.

M. de Jong: Madam c hair, i happily see the member for Stikine. a moment ago i indicated that we'd received some additional information on the matter. if the member for Surrey will permit me, i'll relay that in - formation to his colleague so that he can get on with whatever other obligations he may have. [1435] h ere are the facts that we have been able to determine. o ver the past three years the following number of pa - tients has been medevacked out of Dease l ake. in '07-08 it was 33; in '08-09, 18 patients; in '09-10, 23 patients medevacked out of Dease l ake at the airport.

The no-night-flight announcement that is the sub - ject of our discussion today and yesterday took effect on March 23, 2011.

Whilst physicians have some experi - ence in how to manage through those restrictions and, of course, in Dease l ake are confronted by some other meteorological challenges, we understand the concern relating to the more limited use of the airport. u ltimately, the responsibility for maintenance at Dease l ake rests with the local airport authority, and that's under the jurisdiction of t ransport c anada. i have been assured by staff from the b.c. a mbulance Service that t ransport c anada and n orthern h ealth have been working to try and solve the issue for the last number of weeks and are continuing to work closely with the Stikine a irport Society and municipality to ensure that supports for the provision of emergency air transport for Dease l ake residents are met.

That's probably a rather long-winded way of say - ing that all of the relevant agencies seem to be working together to try and address the issue and the impedi - ment that has been in place since March 23. That's the update i have for the member today, and we'll endeavour to keep him informed as progress is made. D.

Donaldson: i thank the minister for the update and the staff who provided him with that information. i know that the minister would agree that regardless of the number of flights in and out of there, the fact that no night flight service is currently available could mean a matter of serious injury or life and death for people, and since the province is providing air ambulance ser - vice to that region, it's acknowledging that there is a need for that kind of service. i look forward to a prompt resolution, and i will fol - low up with the minister and with the authorities he mentions because, as he likely knows, we're entering a very busy period in that area. e conomically, it's very important for the rest of the province. a lot of exploration work will be occurring in the next few months — and mining activity.

So the importance of the night flight availability is even height- ened by that, let alone for the residents. Thank you for the answer, and i'll be following up with the minister and the other authorities. Hon.

M. de Jong: t o the member: i have, as i indi - cated yesterday, some appreciation for the extent of the isolation that members of the community feel. it is important. by the way, i agree wholeheartedly with the propos - ition that one of the underlying tenets and objectives of the economic policies that the government is endeav - ouring to follow and promote is to make sure an airport and a community like Dease l ake become even more busy, which of course heightens the measure of import - ance to ensuring the facilities can be properly utilized. We'll keep one another informed.

The member for Surrey-fleetwood has asked a specific question. Y ou know, my roots to the member's riding stretch back further. i attended my first day of elemen - tary school in a school located in his riding. So check the records, but not too closely. i'm just going to take a moment to get some detailed answers around the dates for completion, and staffing, i think, was the second area that the member posed a question about. [1440] The member will know that construction commenced on the project we are discussing in September '08. The objective was to have patients receiving treatment and

british c olumbia Debates7382 Wednesday, May 25, 2011 service by June of 2011. We are on target to meet that, starting next month. in fact, if he hasn't received notice, i can give him notice today. i believe there is a formal ceremony scheduled for early next week commemorat - ing completion of the work and commissioning. i'll be happy to provide him with more details about that. J. Brar: i would like to just go back.

The promise which was made to the people of Surrey was that the completion would be done by 2009, initially, and then it was delayed. i understand that, but i think even then i would like to say that it will be a victory for the people of Surrey once this facility is up and running. a t this point in time…. i didn't hear anything about the staffing requirement. i know the building is up and ready. i still don't know what the additional staffing requirement is to operate this facility. is there any infor- mation about that, or will that come later? Hon.

M. de Jong: i'm actually pleased that the member has asked the question because it provides an opportunity to emphasize and highlight an important aspect of these major capital projects. We tend to, for understandable reasons, become fix - ated with the cost associated with the construction of the building, whether it's several hundreds of millions of dollars down the road at Surrey Memorial…. i think it's the largest single capital investment in the history of the province — over half a billion dollars in the expansion at Surrey Memorial.

That represents but a small proportion of the ultimate cost associated with the operation of the facility. in the case of the Pattison outpatient care and surgery centre, i am advised that upwards of 190 physicians — that's just 190 physicians — will be based at the centre and provid - ing service to patients. i'm going to get some additional information for the member relating to the myriad of important support staff and health care partners: the nurses, the techni - cians, all of the other folks that actually represent the soul of any kind of a health care facility. [1445] So when you consider the operating costs associated with the centre, we're actually not talking about an in - vestment of several hundred millions of dollars.

We're talking about an investment that exceeds a billion dol - lars — in fact, over the life of the project several billions of dollars. it is significant. i believe that the people of Surrey and surrounding area are going to receive a state-of-the-art facility with a quality of service that is unrivalled anywhere. it's good news, but the member is quite correct to point out that it is ultimately the people that deliver that service.

There will be many hundreds based at this fa - cility, in addition to the 190 physicians that we estimate will call this their professional home. i'll get some addi - tional information for the member about some of those other professionals and partners. J. Brar: Thanks to the minister for the response. i understand that this is an out-patient facility adja - cent to Surrey Memorial h ospital, and i understand that there will be doctors who are now working at Surrey Memorial h ospital working at the out-patient facility.

What i didn't get the answer to is…. i'm asking about the net additional staffing to operate this facility. i would certainly, keeping in mind the time, appreci - ate it — if the minister has that information to provide — if there's any information as to what the additional requirement is to run or to operate this facility on a day-to-day basis in addition to the staff we already have at Surrey Memorial h ospital. That's what my question is, if there's any clarification at this point in time. if the information is not available, i wouldn't mind getting the information a little later. Hon.

M. de Jong: i can advise the member that in addition to the physicians that i referred to a moment ago, upwards of 600 additional staff will be based in the facility. n ow, some of those, in fairness, will be re - assigned from other facilities in the health authority. The number i will endeavour to get for the member is what the net increase in the staffing component will be for the operation of the Pattison centre. J.

Brar: i do have one more question. i would probably leave this question at this point in time. i was certainly still not satisfied with the answer i got. i'm asking…. i understand that 160 — i don't exactly remember; a hundred-something — physicians will be placed in that building, but my understanding is that those are not new physicians completely. Those are physicians who are al- ready working at Surrey Memorial. So i would certainly expect the information coming in the future.

The second question i have is about the Surrey Memorial h ospital emergency room. i think the minis - ter is well aware that that was the second promise made by the b.c. l iberals in 2005 — that there will be a new emergency room to meet the growing population needs of the city of Surrey. The promise was made to complete the building, com- plete the construction, by 2010. Subsequently that was delayed to 2014. i know the construction is on, but it's due in 2014, which is almost three years from today. i would like to ask the minister this final question.

The minister is well aware that the emergency room at Surrey Memorial h ospital is one of the busiest emer - gency rooms we have in the province. a few days ago there was news in the newspaper, which was the Province, May 17. The headline is "Woman's 19- h our Wait in er Prompts Probe." i just want to read from that news very briefly to the minister.

british c olumbia DebatesWednesday, May 25, 2011 7383 "f raser h ealth is launching an investigation after a Surrey woman's agonizing 19-hour wait at Surrey Memorial h ospital's notorious emergency ward. The ward is chronically overcrowded, often unable to cope with the ever-increasing demands of one of c anada's fastest-growing cities while a much-needed and much larger emergency ward is being built. [1450] "in a damning letter to both f raser h ealth and the Minister of h ealth Marine Montani describes how she was forced to sit and then stand for her overnight stay as 65 people crowded into the ward.

Montani was advised to go to the emergency ward when she described her symptoms after phoning the 811 provincial medical help line. 'i would rather wither away and die than go back there,' said the 63-year-old after her overnight horror story." That's what we hear on a regular basis. My question to the minister is this. i understand the new er is being built, but that will be ready in three years down the road. So in the meantime, what steps is the minister taking to reduce the wait-times at the Surrey Memorial emergency room in the short run, if there are any? Hon.

M. de Jong: Going back to the issue we were canvassing just a moment ago. h appily, the ever- efficient officials have been able to advise me that of the approximately 600 new staff — which, because of some part-time and job-sharing, is about 517 fte s — at the Pattison centre, there are approximately 110 transfers from other departments and other facilities and just over 400 new people that will be employed by the health authority and servicing patients in various capacities at the new Pattison centre.

The question that the member has asked relating to Surrey Memorial, of course, highlights a challenge that we face in many places in the province with either a grow - ing population or an aging population — or, in some cases, both. a s i indicated a few moments ago, Surrey Memorial represents at present the single largest investment in health care infrastructure, in hospital expansion. The er — the emergency room and the emergency department — is designed to roughly quadruple the cap - acity that is presently there. That is necessary because of the numbers and the visits that already take place.

The project has been arranged and configured in a way that will see the emergency department completed first, or at the front end, and become commissioned and avail - able for use in advance — i think approximately a year in advance — of some of the other important compon - ents of the project.

There will be pressure, ongoing pressure, in the meantime, and there's no question that staff will con - tinue to feel that pressure. in the ebb and flow that characterizes an emergency department through the seasons, over the next year or two they will continue to feel that pressure. i am hopeful, though, that just as was the case in what was previously the largest single investment in health care infrastructure, the replacement of the old a bbotsford h ospital with the new regional hospital and cancer treatment centre, the fact that improvement is at hand will provide those dedicated personnel with some comfort and the understanding and appreciation that better days lie ahead.

There is, as many, many health care professionals have told me, something very special about moving into a new facility and being amongst the first to treat patients in that facility. it's a little ways off in the case of Surrey Memorial and the emergency department, but with con- struction well underway, people arriving at work can now look at that site and measure in months the length of time before they will be moving into that facility and all of the improvements that that will represent. i thank the member for raising the questions around Surrey Memorial. [1455] S.

Chandra Herbert: it's a question i've raised with the minister before and a question i've raised with pre - vious ministers, but i just want to get it on the record. i wanted to ask the minister if he is committed, as a previous h ealth Minister with the b.c. l iberals — the now finance Minister — was committed, to keeping St. Paul's h ospital in the downtown core, in the West end, with its current capacities. That's the first question i've got on St. Paul's. Hon.

M. de Jong: it's a good opportunity to reaffirm on the record what i indicated to the member in pre - vious conversations, and that is that the work that is presently being undertaken to examine the various options for the redevelopment and evolution of the St.

Paul's h ospital presently does not contemplate a reloca- tion of that facility. i know that the member will canvass further the status of those redevelopment plans, but i will, as i think i said previously, point out that i will not be in a position today or tomorrow to indicate imminent construction on that site. but this will be a good opportunity to hear from the member about what he and some of his constituents think about the matter. S. Chandra Herbert: Thanks to the minister. i'm glad to hear that the government is not considering moving St. Paul's h ospital out of our community any longer.

That is a real win for our community, and i'm really glad that we were able to have that confirmed and reconfirmed today. a s the minister knows, St. Paul's has been in and out of the news for years — consideration of whether it would move but, also, just very importantly, one of the most recent news stories, of course, being that the power blew. a n old generator failed. a n electrical out - put line connected to the hospital failed, plunging it into darkness.

british c olumbia Debates7384 Wednesday, May 25, 2011 of course, we know that the elevators are an on - going concern. Those are the small pieces, of course, of a much more complex and bigger facility with incred - ible education opportunities, incredible research, etc., for diabetes, ai DS, heart disease, and on and on. We know that St. Paul's is a leader with great staff but sub - standard facilities.

We know that it won't stand up in an earthquake, and of course the ministry has had a report on its desk since 2004 which states this very clearly — that it needs ur - gent replacement and that some of the buildings are in extreme need of repair. Providence has prepared a plan that was ready last fall. it was public last fall. The previous minister had said that we would look to get to the project board, get to the business case this spring. Then there was going to be a meeting in March with the former h ealth Minister.

That got cancelled. n ow we've got a new h ealth Minister, and i understand he's just coming up to speed on the file. but that doesn't change anything about the fact that, of course, it's urgent and that there has been a need docu - mented since at least 2004 yet very little work to fill that need, aside from the good work in the emergency room. but that's, again, one small piece of the wider hospital — a very important piece but a small piece. The question to the minister would be: what's taken so long?

We've known since 2004 that we've got to do this work. h ow many more reports or studies are needed be- fore we actually get action for our hospital? [1500] Hon. M. de Jong: Well, it is, happily and character - istically, a direct question from the member, and that's fine. That's what we're here to try and deal with — direct questions and maybe, occasionally, a direct answer. i think the short answer is the money. i'm not going to quarrel at all with the argument around the urgency for a facility that represents one of the…. it's not just older but, in a limited sense, a heritage structure.

The challenge, of course, is that in the context of two or three hours of debate, i have had a discussion with the member's colleague from n orth island about a roughly $600 million project, the member's equally passion - ate colleague from n ew Westminster advocating for a billion-dollar project. a dd to that a project that, accord- ing to the concept plan, i think is estimated to come in at somewhere in the neighbourhood of $600 million. Probably by the time it moves forward we'll be talking about something closer to $700 million.

So $2.5 billion in relatively short order and finding a way to manage that and balance it off, recognizing that there are — at VGh, at c hildren's and Women's, at Surrey Memorial, at Vernon Jubilee — literally billions of dollars in additional new construction and renova - tions taking place. There is an element of where do these projects fit in the queue. i guess sometimes, if i think back on my role as an opposition Mla , as a member of this chamber and a member of the community, some of the frustration, i think, derives from: " l ook, tell us where we are in the line.

Then at least we'll have a better sense and try to draw some timelines around the management." i'm sure that the member is going to have more to say, and i'll try to highlight the fact that investment at St. Paul's has not disappeared or dried up.

There is a concept plan. i am interested to know, at some point during the course of this discussion, the member's general response to the concept plan and whether or not…. i think he has seen it. i think it was widely enough distributed. it would be, i suppose, as part of this discussion, help- ful to know whether there are elements of that plan that he believes are non-starters or elements of the plan that he thinks are worthy of support. i don't want to put him on the spot, but if, at a general level, he has ideas, this is as good a time as any to hear them. S.

Chandra Herbert: Y es, the minister is right, of course. Money is always a challenge. of course he's right. n ot always will i say that, but in that context for sure. of course, my constituents will pass by b.c. Place and see, you know, the nearly comparable choice to spend approximately $563 million there, versus the choice of spending it on our local hospital. That is a choice that a government has made, and that's one question that i know does come up in the constituency now and then.

The concept plan i think is exciting. it's one that we had a town hall on, actually, in the fall, where Providence h ealth c are was able to come and speak about what they were planning and hoping for, taking ideas back from the Save St. Paul's c oalition, the West end r esidents a ssociation and wider community interests. [1505] i've got a letter here that i will be passing over to the minister just for his information. it's a letter calling on the government to proceed with the facilities redevel - opment, with the St.

Paul's renewal, urging significant capital dollars, as the former minister spoke about, to address the revitalization of it. it's signed by ai DS Vancouver, a l oving Spoonful, Positive l iving b.c., c oal h arbour r esidents, the Dr. Peter ai DS f oundation, the Downtown Vancouver business improvement a ssociation, f riends for l ife, Gordon n eighbourhood h ouse, h ealth initiative for Men, Mc l aren h ousing, Mole h ill c ommunity h ousing, Performing a rts l odge community, r obson Street business a ssociation, St. Paul's a nglican, St.

Paul's c oalition, West e nd bia , West e nd–c oal h arbour c ommunity Policing c entre, West e nd n eighbours, West e nd r esidents, West e nd–c oal h arbour c ommunity c entre, the Y aletown business improvement a ssociation and myself as the local Mla.

british c olumbia DebatesWednesday, May 25, 2011 7385 There's widespread community support. That's a huge number of local organizations that represent the downtown core who are very excited about the abil - ity to renew St. Paul's. They're more than ready to go. St. Paul's h ospital f oundation has the ability to raise a good number of dollars — i believe they've stated somewhere between $50 million and $100 million — to go towards the project.

Providence h ealth c are is also very excited about this. o ne of the reasons why it's exciting is that a new hospital there will give us the opportunity for greater efficiencies. instead of having two places you go to, to get your blood work done, you can get it done in one location. instead of going to multiple places for test - ing, you can get that done in a single location. So there are opportunities for better mental health capacity in the hospital there, opportunities for greater integration with services like the Dr.

Peter c entre offers, and i think it's well past time to make this happen. i wonder: is there money in the current budget of the h ealth Ministry to pay for a business case that would then go on to t reasury b oard? Hon. M. de Jong: The member has, i think, accurately described what the logical next step would be. We are in the midst….

The member saw me consulting with staff. i'm just trying to get a sense. it's the next step. it's an im- portant step. it does cost a significant amount of money. i can't and won't pretend to stand here today and pro - vide an undertaking that that step will be taken in the next few days or even the next few weeks. My purpose here is not to be clever or try to trap the member — not that i expect i could — but i will ask this of the member as we have this conversation, and i asked the same question of the member's colleague from n orth island.

There is, as he has undoubtedly surmised, competition for finite capital dollars.

There's competition for finite operating dollars as well. h e knows the government that i serve has approached these large-scale capital projects from a certain perspective, and candidly, as a minister and member of the government, i share the belief that we have maximized the benefit to taxpayers and pa - tients by, in a number of cases, employing a particular approach to procurement. [1510] So whether we're talking about the ambulatory cen - tre at VGh, Surrey Memorial, the a bbotsford r egional h ospital and c ancer c entre or Vernon Jubilee, we be - lieve that there has been merit and draw on reports from the a uditor General and others to buttress our argument that the public-private partnership has on these larger- scale projects proven successful. i will say candidly to the member that in advancing a particular project i suppose it would be useful to know that members representing the service area were pre - pared to at least consider where a case can be made, were prepared to consider that procurement approach as ap - propriate.

Studies, of course, have to be conducted. in some cases we have been confronted by — dare i say it? — a rather ideological opposition to that ap - proach, but since we are exploring with one another ideas about how to move a project like this forward, i am at least interested to know what the views are of the member, as the representative for the area, with respect to the possibility, at least, of a project of this magnitude proceeding on that basis. S.

Chandra Herbert: Well, the minister is very clever. h e said that he wasn't trying to be clever, that he wasn't trying to entrap somebody, do something like that. h e was almost successful in changing the channel so that we wouldn't talk about if there are the dollars for the business case. The previous business case that was done by this gov- ernment in its attempt to move the hospital out of the West end cost anywhere from $2 million to $3 million. My question is: is it a priority of this government, of this minister, to see a business case for this site, and will it dedicate the funds to do so?

We know that there's a vacant lot sitting which the government is covering the taxes on — a couple of million dollars so far. So the money is there. it's just a question of priorities. a gain to the minister: is he willing to go forward with a business case for St. Paul's h ospital so that we can take it to the next stage? c ertainly, when i talk to constituents, they are concerned around privatization of health care and really like the good job that the staff do at St.

Paul's h ospital and wouldn't want to see them lose jobs, wouldn't want to see them no longer doing that work in the community. i would like to again restate the question: will the min- ister make St. Paul's a priority and put the money into the business case so that we can take it to the next stage? Hon. M. de Jong: Thanks to the member for the let - ter, and i hope he'll pass along my appreciation to the agencies that have written for their communication and their message.

Y eah, i understand the pointed interest. i'm not able to offer the direct assurance that i think the member would like to leave the debate with, because within a fi - nite budget there are finite planning dollars and, quite frankly, establishing a priority between St. Paul's, r oyal c olumbia and r oyal inland is not something that has been done and i'm not proposing to do on the floor of the l egislature during this debate. Whilst i appreciate the member's comments, i had no illusions about trying to change the subject or avoid the question. [1515]

british c olumbia Debates7386 Wednesday, May 25, 2011 i am genuinely interested to know to what extent there is preparedness to entertain some of these pro - curement options. it's the opportunity for the member to ask me questions, not the other way around, and i understand that. it is helpful to know whether or not, in individual circumstances, there is a preparedness to examine some variations in the procurement process that may or may not assist in funding the overall project and therefore potentially, i suppose, make it even that much more attractive. i do want to assure the member of this.

There is a clear understanding of the need, a clear understanding of the fact that the facility has faced some challenges. i also, though, for the benefit of those who have taken the time…. i'm always grateful for any citizen or group that takes the time to write, and perhaps they are watching these proceedings. i don't want to leave the impression that people have thrown their hands in the air around St.

Paul's and that there is no appreciation for the challenges that staff and patients are confronted with there on a daily basis. investments continue: $2.3 million in the cardiac services and ambulatory redesign; $4.6 million, site consolidation project; hemodialysis machines; a cardiac MiS suite for $3.3 million; emergency department reno- vation, which i think the member has probably seen himself, close to $15 million — a total of almost $60 mil - lion in investment. a gain, it pales in comparison to the $600 million or $700 million that a full site redesign is likely to cost.

Y et where i come from, and i'm sure where the member comes from, $60 million is still a significant chunk of money. Those investments continue. There is obviously a much larger project looming. M.

Sather: i have a constituent that i wanted to talk to the minister about. h e's been to my office a number of times to talk to me about a health issue he has. h e has a rather severe chronic condition that requires him to get weekly massage therapy treatments. o n a yearly basis he's paying $998.40 hSt on his massage therapy. e ven if the Premier rolls the h St back a couple of percent — which, given her variable responses to the h St , i don't think can be taken to the bank — by my calculations he would still owe $838.76. i wanted to ask the minister if he felt that it was acceptable that british c olumbians like my constituent have to pay that amount of money in hS t to get a very needed health service.

Hon. M. de Jong: Thanks to the member for the ques- tion.

There is an awareness of an inquiry having been made. i must confess that i'm at a bit of a disadvantage to refer specifically to the case the member has raised. [1520] based on the numbers, if i rely upon the numbers the member has provided and can extrapolate, i guess we're talking about someone who is accessing massage ther - apy treatment to the tune of $8,000 or $9,000 over the course of the year, which is in and of itself a significant amount. of course, even under the regime that would have been in place previously, he would have been re - sponsible for just about half that amount under the GSt . i suppose it's that remaining amount of money that we are talking about. i'm not really in a position in the course of this debate to make specific comments about this specific case.

The member has heard at length the government's rationale for both the hS t and more recently, as re - cent as today, some changes that are being proposed to the hS t that in our view would lessen the burden sig - nificantly felt by families — in fact, under the analysis that has been conducted by independent bodies, lead to a situation in which virtually every family finds them - selves ultimately better off. i understand that that is a position that the member and his party take issue with. We can have that discus - sion here, but it….

Well, we can have that discussion here, or we can, i'm sure, have the discussion in a differ- ent forum, and one will present itself shortly. M.

Sather: Y eah, that's fine. it sounds like we are go - ing to have another forum to discuss the hS t further, so i'll leave that and move on to ask the minister some questions about r idge Meadows h ospital. in 11 l ower Mainland hospitals less than 55 percent of patients admitted to hospital get a bed within ten hours. in r idge Meadows it's only 35 percent of patients who get a bed within ten hours. i wanted to ask the min- ister why the admission rate for getting a bed is so low at r idge Meadows h ospital. Hon.

M. de Jong: c ould the member repeat the numbers? i want to make sure we're comparing apples to apples here. M. Sather: by all means. The information i have is that in 11 l ower Mainland hospitals less than 55 per - cent of patients admitted to hospital get a bed within ten hours. r idge Meadows, i think, is on the lower end of that with only 35 percent getting a bed within ten hours of being admitted to hospital. i wanted to ask the minister why it seems to be so difficult to get a bed at r idge Meadows h ospital. Hon. M. de Jong: i think he is referring to some tar - gets that have been set.

We are, as we speak, trying to confirm the numbers that he has presented, and then we'll move on to a discussion about them. [1525] The objective, of course, is to get every patient a bed assigned within ten hours. We haven't obviously real - ized that objective yet but are making progress. if the

british c olumbia DebatesWednesday, May 25, 2011 7387 member can bear with me for a couple of minutes, we'll see if we can get the data and an explanation for that as it relates to r idge Meadows h ospital. M. Sather: Well, according to f raser h ealth public af- fairs director David Plug, the problem, in part at least, is that there are so many seniors and acutely ill occupying beds in Maple r idge. i wanted to ask a specific question, which i asked f raser h ealth, and that was: what are the minimum and maximum times for a senior in r idge Meadows h ospital waiting for placement in a residential care facility?

Part of the problem here is that we have a lot of seniors that should be in residential care. n ow, the information i got from f raser h ealth…. They gave me the minimum time, but i didn't get any maximum. What is the range, then? h ow long are sen - iors having to wait at r idge Meadows h ospital to get into a residential care facility? Hon.

M. de Jong: i just want to confirm with the member. i think his question relates to that issue we hear about from time to time and one that has been a significant issue. it seems to be diminishing somewhat. it's the notion of bed-blockers — seniors that are in an acute care facility when where they actually need to be is in supportive housing. We've got the data for f raser h ealth, but i think the member has received that. What i'm going to try and get is something more particular to r idge Meadows. i don't have it at my fingertips.

The officials you see are endeavouring to get it. if the member is agreeable, we'll try to track down something that is a little more particular to r idge Meadows, because all we'll have at our fingertips right now are f raser h ealth a uthority numbers. M.

Sather: a nother constituent told me something recently that really astounded me. h e said he'd been ad- mitted to hospital at r idge Meadows with a broken bone — i seem to recall it was an ankle — and he didn't get it set for four days. i was astounded at that, but i've since learned that this does happen more frequently than we would like. i think that must be unacceptable to the min- ister. What's he doing to ensure that my constituents, and other residents in the province, don't have to wait four days to get a broken bone set? Hon. M. de Jong: Just to back up for a moment.

This is a very general number, but i should remind the mem- ber that ten years ago the median wait time for access to residential care was up to just about a year. t oday the median wait time is about 90 days. [1530] n ow, that can still pose challenges in individual facili- ties, but it is much improved from where it was. The member's next question relates to, again, an in - dividual constituent and both diagnosis and treatment. of course, we do on occasion hear stories about pa - tients who receive their treatment in a timely….

Well, actually we don't hear about the 98 percent that receive their treatment in a very timely way. We tend to hear about examples where it has taken longer than many of us would think reasonable. What do we do about that? Well, we try to train more professionals. We are training over twice as many more physicians in british c olumbia today than was the case ten years ago. We try to train more nurses, more health care technicians. We try to ensure that there are more professionals on site, available to treat our citizens.

We try to make sure the facilities are there that can accommodate people as they come in the door when they submit to injury or illness, all of it complicated by the fact that as our population grows older, more and more people are seeking access to medical treatment, to health care treatment.

So it would be disingenuous of me to suggest there is that one thing that you can do to guarantee that no person ever again is obliged to wait longer than most people in this chamber and most cit - izens would think reasonable. i will say this. on balance, i think very positive progress has been made. but that doesn't mean that there isn't more work to be done, and that doesn't mean that the demand on the professionals that we in society rely upon day in, day out to attend to our health care needs won't continue to grow. H.

Bains: My questions…. i think my colleague from Surrey-fleetwood asked a few of those questions. i just want to expand on those questions. it's the expansion of the facilities at Surrey Memorial h ospital. The physical space is one thing. i understand that the ambulatory unit is opening in June sometime.

The expansion of the emergency ward — that project is delayed until 2014. if this is still the date, the minister can correct me on that. i think the question that followed from the member from Maple r idge is the same, and i think the minister tried to answer some of that question — some of the issues that it's brought up and why that is the case. in Surrey Memorial h ospital, being there on numerous cases, you hear…. f irst of all, the emergency room itself. i was given a tour just the other day by one of the professionals, and they talk about how in r oyal c olumbian h ospital….

Physically you're in t im h ortons, but come and take a look here. So yes, you know, in every hallway leading from the emergency ward all the way up to the restau - rant there were patients, in some cases, on both sides of the hallway. They were complaining that they don't have the fa - cilities where they could call for help if they need their

british c olumbia Debates7388 Wednesday, May 25, 2011 personal needs addressed, and i think that those are some of the things…. They have to wait for somebody to come and physically show up there, because they don't have those emergency buttons that they can do. There are no oxygen links in that area. [1535] That's a physical space limitation issue, and the date is what the date is. i think the other part that eman - ates from there is that even once you are admitted, the issue, as was mentioned by the member from Maple r idge, is that the health care professionals are not there. They're ready for surgery.

Sometimes they actually put you through fasting to prepare you for the surgery, but a nurse is not there, an anaesthesiologist is not there, or some other member of the team is not there, so it is postponed again. i was talking to someone yesterday — same situa - tion. a nurse wasn't there that was needed to perform the surgery, to help with it. So it's postponed. Those are the issues. The other question that comes out of that is — and the minister tried to answer in the previous question: what about the staffing?

What are we doing to increase the staffing? i mean, even if you are expanding the facilities, how are you going to deal with that particular issue? o ne is training more professionals here, but have you looked at utilizing or helping those who are already here with some qualifications? They may need some up- grading. They may need some help in dealing with the issue, which is foreign-trained professionals. Many of them are actually c anadian-born kids studying outside. They're coming back.

They're doctors, but they are hav - ing huge difficulty coming back into the system to use their skills. ontario and Manitoba have brought in some legisla - tion to deal with that issue, although it covers the entire professional organizations. but on health care alone, i just want to ask the minister: is there any attempt being made to help those who already have those credentials? They could be c anadian kids who left the country and are coming back here. h ow do we help them and as - sist them to get back into the system so that we do have those professionals when we need them? Hon.

M. de Jong: Well, we touched on this briefly yesterday, but i think it's a very important and inter - esting component of the health care equation. Y ou can separate it out into a couple of different compartments, if you will. first of all, in general, the realization that we need more health care professionals — physicians, nurses and techni- cians, the physiotherapists, the respiratory therapists; all of these folks, the whole suite of professionals that, for lay people like most of us, we tend to categorize as a doctor or a nurse.

There's this whole suite of professionals that make up the team of professionals that we rely upon. t raining more of them — well, we're doing that. in the case of physicians, of course, it takes upwards of eight or nine years from the time they enter university to when they graduate, complete their internships and are actively serving patients on a full-time basis — in an emergency ward, for example. There is that domestic aspect to this, but also how we utilize the people that are trained.

The member will know, i think, that there are challenges arising as we develop new categories within the conventional desig - nations. We have nurse practitioners now. They are, if you will, registered nurses with a significantly enhanced level of training. a re we utilizing nurse practitioners to the degree that i think, ultimately, we should? i don't think so.

Some of that, by the way, is the responsibility of government, some of it is the responsibility of the health authorities, and some of it, quite frankly, is attributable to some resistance within the traditional professional fields to change — a little bit of concern around turf. [1540] l icensed practical nurses and the opportunities that they have, with correct training and appropriate training, to fill in, in areas that historically registered nurses…. i mean, these are specialized areas within which there is debate on the part of those. by the way, this is not unique to medicine.

Y ou can have an in - teresting discussion between lawyers and notaries on matters relating to professional behaviour and scope of practice. That's an area that i think requires ongoing attention and work. Then the area that the member has referred to, this phenomenon where we have people…. Some of them are foreign nationals who choose to come to c anada with training, and some are c anadians who have gone abroad, received training and come back here. We still have some impediments, in my view, to capitalizing on those skill sets as quickly as we should. n ow, i think we're getting better.

Y esterday we dis - cussed the fact that in our foreign credentialing for physicians, we've tripled and gone from six to 18. Those are still pretty modest numbers. i think the member also knows that for whatever reason, i have a particular interest in this not just as it relates to health care but on an economic basis. We tend to think of some of these countries…. The mem - ber, i think, traces his ancestry back to india. We have this preconceived notion of countries that formerly fit into the Third World categorization. That is not the case today.

Y ou go to india, and you see these…. i toured a fa - cility, the a pollo h ospitals chain. it's incredible, with skilled personnel. There is a lingering element of ar - rogance on our part to suggest that someone who has received training in some of these centres isn't qualified to come here. Y et we are cautious because we feel this

british c olumbia DebatesWednesday, May 25, 2011 7389 obligation to say to fellow citizens: " f ear not.

We have standards, and we are ensuring that they are being…." it becomes very bureaucratic. it's a combination of government and of governing bodies in the professions themselves breaking through that in a balanced and responsible way, preserving our ability to say to citizens: "We are capitalizing on that international skill set, but we are also doing so in a way that ensures you are being treated by someone who is qualified to provide that treatment." That's the challenge. a s i say, we're making progress, but i think there's more we can do. H.

Bains: i think there are a couple of areas in there. i think Manitoba, as i mentioned, and o ntario…. i understand the protection of their jurisdictions. a ll of the professional organizations have their own in-house bylaws on how to govern themselves. i understand that, but i think to overcome some of that, o ntario and Manitoba, as the minister probably knows, have come down with legislation.

Y ou know, they appointed a fairness commissioner, whose role is to make sure that when changes are made, they are in line with the government direction that the government wants to see in all of those professional or - ganizations. We're zeroing in here or talking about the health care side only. if the minister had a look at that model…. There is something where the government's leadership is needed to make those changes, to bring them to the table and say: "look, we need to utilize these skills that are already here." There are two components; i agree with the minister.

We have professionals who were trained in countries previously called Third World. but there are c anadian children who were born, raised and educated here — ubc and other graduates — who couldn't get into the medical school here because of limited seats.

So they've gone over to england, to ireland or to other places — countries that we previously depended on for profes - sionals. n ow we're not even allowing them to come back and enter into our system. [1545] The other part that perhaps the minister and the staff can clarify is: how is it that a special arrangement was made with the doctors from South a frica who could come in and practise here in b.c. without going through those same impediments, as the minister has said, as those who were trained in england or ireland or even some of the other e uropean countries? h ow does that work? if the minister could explain that — why there are two different approaches to it.

Hon.

M. de Jong: first of all, i'm always gratified to receive information that we can follow up on, and i will, with respect to the approach that he has described out of ontario and Manitoba. i can do two things. i can alert the member to the fact that based on the approach in place at the moment, we believe that within a few years there will be upwards of 134 international medical graduates in training at any given time in b.c., which represents a fairly sig - nificant expansion. i want to assure the member that he will encounter no philosophical quarrel from me about finding the most efficient and appropriate ways to recognize credentialing to facilitate the flow of inter - nationally trained medical graduates. i will ask this, though. a nd it is not, again, to turn what i am finding to be a very useful and enlightening conversation into something else. but we also try to fa - cilitate the flow of professionals within the country.

So when the member talks about legislating…. in fact, the government did that with tilMa. it signed an agree - ment that was dedicated, in part, to facilitating the freer flow of professions within the country. n ow, is there the potential for flaws and issues? but that is the underlying principle.

So i would suggest this. i would only say this to the member. i in no way quarrel with the proposition that says: let us find ways to facilitate the entry and full partici- pation of internationally trained medical personnel. but i apply that same standard and that same phil - osophy to facilitating the entry of c anadians who may receive training elsewhere in a range of professions. We're talking about health care here, and i understand that. but i apply a similar approach and attach simi - lar importance when it comes to removing some of those domestic hurdles that continue to linger in our country. [1550] H.

Bains: i think i also asked a question about the difference between the South a frican doctors coming in and practising here compared to, say, doctors coming from england or from ireland. Why is there a different approach to it? The other

part i may want to mention to the minis - ter is that you do need a national strategy on this issue — you know, like we had a r ed Seal approach for the ap- prenticeships. Those are the types of things where we could show some leadership, when the ministers from all the provinces and the federal government sit down and come up with a strategy. i'll leave that for another day. o ur h ealth critic prob- ably will follow that one as well, but i just want to talk about the different approach given to professionals trained in different countries, and South a frica is one of the examples that i used. Hon.

M. de Jong: i didn't mean to divert us off into another realm of argument. i can't say this for certain, but i can advise the mem - ber that the national c ollege of f amily Physicians, for

british c olumbia Debates7390 Wednesday, May 25, 2011 example, recognizes a current system of certification as equivalent to c anada's in a number of medical schools in the u nited States, in the u .k., in ireland, in a ustralia. a ctually, i think that in large measure that represents the most efficient way of doing this.

What i don't have on my list, by the way, is South a frica, but my expectation is that something similar exists there, because there has been quite an influx of physicians from South a frica. a t the end of the day, having agreements in place that recognize the credentials of the program itself and, therefore, those who graduate from those programs is probably the best way i can think of to facilitate the entry of an internationally trained student.

With a certi- fied program, we are saying in advance that if you attend this school and if you graduate from this program, you are qualified and your credentials are recognized as be - ing comparable. That strikes me as an eminently sensible way to approach this. M. Farnworth: i thought i may as well enter the de - bate at this particular point, because this was a topic that i had intended to address later. My colleague has raised it and raised some interesting points, and the minister has responded. i would like to carry this a lit - tle bit further so that we don't have to come back to it later on.

The minister and my colleague have raised, i think, some really important points. one is the issue of for - eign credentialing and the process we go through in this province, and i agree that there are some real challenges. The minister made some comments about the ability within the country to practise, and i think that abso - lutely that is a real issue. if you're trained in o ntario, you should be able to practise in british c olumbia. if you're trained in british c olumbia, you should be able to prac- tise in ontario.

The last time i checked, the arm bone connected to the wrist bone is still the same in this prov- ince as it is in any other province. blood still circulates through arteries and veins, and it doesn't change. h ow you do a kidney transplant is no different in british c olumbia than it is in ontario. i think there are a lot of things that do need to change. h ere's where i take not issue, but where i want to go with the minister and just explore a little bit, because i think it's important. one is the issue of a national strategy in terms of…. it's one thing for a province to work with another province to say okay, and i'll use til Ma as an example, on medical professionals. i actually think we need to have a national strategy that recognizes the im - portance of health professionals right across the country and a national strategy in terms of training physicians and health care professionals not just in british c olumbia but in ontario and all the other provinces. [1555] My question is: is the ministry or minister engaged in those discussions with provincial and federal ministers to move to that type of system?

We're not talking about doing a deal with one particular province, but we're ac - tually trying to get a national agreement on the ability to work right across the country if you're a physician or you're a nurse. [D. h orne in the chair.] Hon. M. de Jong: r eally, two tracks — the question relating to the level of national engagement. it exists in two ways, i am learning and discovering. on the profes - sional level — and the hon. member may recall this from his days in this particular seat — the individual colleges from the provinces staff the accreditation committee of c anadian medical schools.

That's the professional body that makes decisions around the means by which recog- nition is going to be granted. i think the member's question related to the second track, which is at the political level. i am advised that there have been ongoing discussions at the deputies level about the extent to which we can improve the re - cruitment of international health personnel. i am also reminded that it is a topic for discussion at the upcom - ing federal-provincial h ealth Ministers meetings, which are scheduled for the end of the summer. i could go on and pretend to know more about the status of those discussions than i do. i won't do that, ex- cept to say that it is an area that i am keenly interested in and, as i am reminded by the deputy, an ongoing phe- nomenon that frustrates the heck out of people who can't understand why folks who seemingly have the tal - ent are not allowed to put that talent to work. [1600] i will say this, though. it doesn't take very much for the pendulum to swing in the other direction when an allegation is made about a health official, be it a techni - cian or someone else who has received training, who's then accused of not having met a certain standard set in c anada.

The public becomes justifiably concerned about that as well. So it's a problem that most people would conclude has a logical and seemingly straight - forward solution but, as we discovered time and time again, is filled with complexities. M.

Farnworth: i want to stick with this a little bit be - cause it has been — what? — 12 years since i sat in that seat — a long time ago, and much of that time you forget. but there are certain things that do stick in your mind, issues that you remember, and this is one of them. i remember being h ealth Minister and meeting with the c ollege of Physicians and Surgeons and others and going through these very same questions and being told that if you're from the u nited States, the u nited k ingdom, a ustralia, n ew Zealand or South a frica before the change,

british c olumbia DebatesWednesday, May 25, 2011 7391 it's real simple to practise medicine here in british c ol- umbia. but if you're from f rance, Germany, italy, n orway, Scandinavia or anywhere else, it's very, very difficult, even though…. a nd it struck me back then that that was a rather archaic, to be charitable, way of viewing the world and the way it's changed and skills and training. What strikes me is that i'm not sure tha

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0525pm-01
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0525pm 01
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	c918f791945211ab5621da1df769867329d09ad2

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