Province of Newfoundland FORTY - FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Volume XLI Second Session - Number 64 .' VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush . Thursday [Preliminary Transcript] 25 October 1990 1

The House met at 2:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker (Lush): Order, please! Before proceeding with the routine business of the House on behalf of hon. Members I would like to extend a warm and cordial welcome to 100 Grade VI students from St. Kevin's School in the Goulds, accompanied by their teachers Sister Mary 1, Judy McDonald, and Marilyn Howard. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Statements by Ministers Mr. Speaker: The hon. the President of Treasury Board. Mr. Baker: Thank you, Mr. Speaker • I am making this announcement today on behalf of the hon. the Premier.

I am announcing today certain changes in Government's ongoing efforts to monitor the effects of the Hibernia Development. The purpose of this monitoring is to ensure that the Province takes Full advantage of the project, with the maximum possible spin—off to local employment and the local economy. Mr. Speaker, Hibernia provides unique opportunities for economic expansion in this Province. It is the Government's intention to ensure that every departmene and agency that has a role in this development focuses its attention on the project in a meaningful way. Already, a significant amount of work has been done.

The Department of Development, for example, is continuing with the implementation of programs to ensure that the local business community is prepared, to the extent possible, to capitalize on the opportunities provided by Hibernia. The Departments of Education and Employment and Labour Relations have carried out significant work with respect to training and education of the local workforce. The start of construction of the project also creates new demands on Government. For example, steps need to be taken to ensure that the social and environmental aspects of the project are appropriately monitored. Mr.

Speaker, I am announcing today the establishment of a senior level committee of public servants whose responsibilities will include the effective monitoring of all aspects of Government's involvement in Hibernia. This Committee will monitor and co—ordinate the activities of all departments and agencies in every aspect of the project. The Committee's role will include monitoring the compliance of all parties with the terms and conditions of the numerous project agreements in place. the committee will report to Cabinet through the planninj and priorities committee.

In order to provide the necessary degree of priority to the committee's work, Government has decided that the committee have a full—time chairman. This will help to ensure that we have a continuous review of the project at all times and easy access to Cabinet or Planning and Priorities for the purpose of problem solving. I am pleased to announce. the appointment of Mr. Peter Kennedy as Chairman of the Hibernia Proj ect Monitoring Committee. Mr. Kennedy has Li October 25. 1990 Vol XLI No. 64 Ri

. approximately twenty years experience in the Newfoundland public service and has served approximately ten of those years as a Deputy Minister - in the Treasury Board Secretariat, the Department of Finance, and the Intergovernmental Affairs Secretariat. In addition to that experience he has served as Chairman of Newfoundland's Negotiating Team in the Hibernia negotiations from early 1986 up to their conclusion last month.

That particular experience makes him especially qualified for this new and demanding role because of his intimate knowledge of the project and the contents of all the final agreements In addition to Mr. Kennedy, the following individuals will also serve on the new Committee, the Clerk of the Executive Council, Mr. Hal Stanley: Deputy Minister of Mines and Energy, Mr. Gordon Gosse; Deputy Minister of Development, Mr. Clyde Granter; Deputy Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, Mr. Clarence Randell; and the Deputy Minister of Environment and Lands, Mr. John Fleming.

I want to thank the Premier's office, I guess, for sending me a copy of the statement in advance, although it was delivered by the President of Treasury Board. Mr. Speaker, let me say right off the top that the only thing worthy of note in this particular statement made on behalf of the Premier today, is the admission, public admission of negligence by this Government.

When this Government assumed office on May 5th, 1989 - the President of Treasury Board can shake his head until it falls oil his shoulders if he wishes, but the fact of the matter is, when this Government took office on May 5th, 1989 it inherited an Hibernia Development Projects Committee, a monitoring committee, Mr. Speaker. Who were they? Peter Kennedy, Gordon Gosse, Hal Stanley and Clyde Granter, Mr. Speaker, the very same people whose re-appointment the Minister is announcing here today. Now, if that is not negligence of the highest order, I do not know what it is. It is a silly, silly statement. Mr.

Speaker, Government it confident that this structure will provide the necessary co-ordination that is required to ensure that the Province is fully positioned to capture the Hibernia benefits to the greatest extent possible. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr.Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Rideout: Thank you, Mr. Speaker The Government should be condemned for disbanding that Committee eighteen months ago.

It should never have been disbanded, it should never have lost that year and a half of work that could have been done in developing new education programs and making sure that companies and businesses in Newfoundland and Labrador were ready for the Hibernia project. It was negligence of the highest order for the Government to disband the Committee, but having said that, we are finally pleased that after eighteen months they re-appointed the Committee almost L2 October 25, 1990 vol XLI No. 64

body and soul, person for person, the group which they disbanded when they took office. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Oral Questions Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Rideout: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I had a question for the Premier, but in his absence I will put the question to the President of the Treasury Board. Mr. Speaker, could we have some order while I am trying to put a question, please? Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Mr. Rideout: Last Thursday, the • Premier said the following in this House and for the benefit of the President of Treasury Board, I will just make a brief quote.

He said, 'we acknowledge that managers of hospitals know more about running hospitals than the Minister of Health or the President of Treasury Board. We have a limited number of dollars. You, the managers, know how to provide the services within the limits of the funds available, so you make the decisions . The managers of nursing homes and so on have now provided the public and the Government of this Province with certain information saying that frozen Budgets mean, in effect, that they will have $60 million less to spend next year. Now, Mr.

Speaker, yesterday in the House the Premier made the following statement again, and I want to tie the two together for the President of Treasury Board. The Premier said this: 'Like the Opposition, they, the managers and the unions, do not know what they are talking about when they make those statements. In other words, when they say the effect is a $60 million cut, 1,200 less jobs in the health care sector, they do not know what they are talking about' - the managers who were so good last Thursday, do not know what they are talking about. I want to ask the President of Treasury Board, who knows?

The Ministers don't know, the Premier doesn't know, and the managers and the unions and the Opposition. Nobody knows! Will the President of Treasury Board tell us who knows, who has the answers? Mr. Simms: Good question. Oh my God, (inaudible). Some Hon. Members: Oh no! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Order, please! The hon. the Minister of Health. Mr. Decker: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put this in context.

The first time the Premier spoke about this issue he said that because of this recession we find ourselves in, it is necessary for the Government to not spend as much next year, in other words, freeze our Budgets. Now we could have dogmatically said to all the hospital boards and the administrators and the chairpersons of those boards, do that, do this, do something else. But in our spirit of consultation and co—operation, we went to the people who were on the front lines.

The Premier said, they know better than the Minister of Health, and I agree with him, they know better than the Leader of the Opposition, they know better than L3 October 25, 1990 vol XLI No. 64 •R3

'S the President of Treasury Board. We went to those people who were on the front lines and we asked them to come back with some suggestions as to how we can do that. That is the first part of the question. So that is what the Premier meant when he said they are on the front lines. Now, the next part of the question was the Leader of the Opposition talked about the announcements that are being made, 600 jobs here, 500 beds there, something else somewhere else.

The Premier said the hospital boards do not know what they are talking about in that particular matter, nor does the Opposition know in that particular matter, nor does the Nursing Home Association in that particular matter, nor does the Cabinet, nor does anyone. And the reason, Mr. Speaker? Because the decisions have not been made. Now how can anyone know if the decision has not been made? It is pure speculation, Mr. Speaker.

So I do not see any contradiction, I do not see any problem with it, and I fail to see where the Leader of the Opposition has any problem with that, unless he is deliberately looking for problems with that, Mr. Speaker. Now that is a very simple answer, without any arrogance. It is a very simple answer, Mr. Speaker, and I am glad to give it to the people of this Province. Mr. Simms: Are you now confirming there will not be any cutbacks? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Rideout: Mr.

Speaker, I suspect that when the Minister of Health was informed the Premier could not be here for Question Period today, he was called to the Premier's Office and given a quick PR crash course in how to answer the questions, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Simms: Using trick words. Trick words. Mr. Rideout: Now, Mr. Speaker, let me - Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Mr. Rideout: Mr. Speaker, let me ask the Minister of Health a supplementary. The Board of Directors of the Bay St.

George Senior Citizens Home announced on October 22 past, not something they might do, not something that is speculation, but as of that date there was a freeze on admissions because of the Budget freeze next year. Now is the minister prepared to stand in this House and admit to this House that decisions, firm, hard decisions are now being taken by some institutions in this Province? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Health. Mr. Decker Mr. Speaker, I would be pleased to take a lesson in how to answer questions if the hon. the Leader of the Opposition would take a I esson in how to ask questions.

Now the Bay St. George incident. The administrator of that nursing home attended the meeting in Corner Brook when I carried the news out and explained that there was going to have to be a freeze and that we wanted to consult, we wanted their advice and all of this sort of thing. And I said to them, go back to your institutions and come up with some C, fl 1-4 October 25, 1990 vol XLI No. 64 Ri -

ED •! . suggestions. All of the boards went back. Now some of them did not understand exactly that they were to consult with the Department of Health first. The administrator has been talked to; the Deputy Minister of Health has talked to him, and he misunderstood the process. But he is very conscientious administrator who knows the system inside out, Mr. Speaker, and he said, and the media cornered him - we are all public people. We know how the media grabs you before you have a chance to really get your thoughts in order. It happens quite often. It happened to me. Maybe I am human - and Mr.

Bradley explained that he was approached by the media before he had a chance to put it in thought. But what Mr. Bradley is saying is this. If we are going to freeze our budget, here are some of the possibilities. One possibility is that we will close fifteen beds, and in order to do that maybe we should stop filling these beds now. You cannot put people on the road, obviously. So, if a bed becomes vacant, we will not replace it. That is one possibility. However, Mr.

Bradley does not yet have the authority to do that until his suggestions are brought back to the Departi'nent of Health and are studied by the Minister of Health and his officials, and a resource group, I should say, which has also made itself available to me. And at the end of the day we might say, look, it is impossible to close fifteen beds in St. George's, it might be better to close them somewhere else. That is a possibility. And we are the ones who are going to have to make that judgement call, because we are the ones responsible.

But up to the present time, there might have been a misunderstanding in Bay St. George's, but that is no long the case. Mr. Bradley now understands that at the end of the day he might, indeed, have to close fifteen beds. I cannot say that, but that decision has not yet been made. Nobody knows that, not the Cabinet, not Mr. Bradley, not the Opposition, because we do not know what is going to come out at the end of the day, when all of this is analyzed. It has to be analyzed, it has to be examined at the end of the day, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Order, please! I have to stop the hon.

Minister, he is getting (inaudible) Mr. Rideout: That was a very wise decision by Your Honour. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition Mr. Rideout: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me come back to the Minister of Health. The Minister tried to skate and flip—flop in saying that the administrator of this home got banged into a corner by the media and made an intemperate and perhaps ill—thought—out statement. Mr. Speaker, let me quote from the printed statement issued by that administrator on October 22 - printed statement, not getting cornered by the media. 'The Bay St.

George's Senior Citizen Home finds itself in a position of having to announce to the general public that a freeze on admissions to this facility will take place effective immediately', Mr. Speaker. Now that is not getting caught out by the media. How does 1-5 October 25, 1990 vol XLI No. 64 RS

[1 the Minister square flippant answer he this House? Mr. Decker: Very Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Order, The hon. the Ministe that with the just gave to simple, Mr. please! of Health. Mr. Rideout: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am going to give the Minister of Health another opportunity to confirm and display to this House and to the people of this Province his arrogance. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Decker: Very simple, Mr. Speaker. As I explained so clearly to everyone in the House except the hon.

Leader of the Opposition, who is probably the only one who didn't understand it, the administrator in Bay St. George's just got a little bit ahead of the process. That memo is null and void. That memo does not exist. Mr. Simms: It is not a memo (inaudible) Mr. Decker: That press release, memo, proclamation, document, contract, whatever it is, Mr. Speaker, it does not exist. It is null and void. As of now the Bay St. George's Nursing Home will admit people as they were doing before the announcement was made. Nothing has changed.

However, after his suggestions have been put to the Department of Health, have been examined by the Department of Health, the day might come that he might, indeed, have to close five beds or twenty—five beds. That decision has not yet been made, Mr. Speaker. But when it is made, the people of Bay St. George's, the Leader of the Opposition, the people of Newfoundland and Labrador will know it. No one is going to hide behind our decisions over here, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Simms: Listen, now. Mr. Rideout: Will the Minister confirm, Mr.

Speaker, that yesterday, here in the lobby of this building, he spoke to a nurse working at the Grace Hospital in St; John's, just as he was waiting to speak to the demonstration, and said to her the following, and I quote: if you did not have to get your increases we would not be in this mess. Is that a statement that the Minister made to a nurse in the lobby of this buildilig yesterday? And did the Minister say that, in light of the fact that that was one of the freely arrived at - without a strike, without arbitration - collective bargainings in this Province this year? Mr. Simms: True or false. Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Health. Mr. Decker: The simple answer, Mr. Speaker, is no. That statement was not made, Mr. Speaker. I have a lot of friends that are nurses . I happen to live with a nurse. I cannot guarantee that never in my life have I said that to a particular individual, I cannot guarantee that. But I can stand here, Mr. Speaker, and say that yesterday in the lobby of this building, I have no knowledge of saying to a nurse, from the Grace, that if it was not for your raise we would not have to do . L6 October 25, 1990 Vol XLI No. 64 R6

this. I do not know anything Mr. Speaker: The hon. the about that. Minister of Fisheries. . S But I did say to the nurses that I believe they are the backbone of the health care system, Mr. Speaker. An Hon.Member: Hear hear! Mr. Decker: (Inaudible). I also did say that we hold them in a lot higher esteem than the previous Administration did when they gave everyone else a wage increase, Mr. Speaker, and did not give the nurses the increase that they deserved. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.Speaker: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank. - AnHon.Member: How much more can you take? Mr.tlatthews: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Fisheries. Last week the Minister indicated that the Port aux Basques fish plant may not re-open this year. Is it now official that this plant will not re-open in time for the winter fishery? Mr.Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Carter: No, Mr. Speaker, it is not official, Mr.__Speaker: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank. _Mattheu!: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary. Is there still a possibility that the Port aux Basques fish plant will re-open for the winter fishery? What arrangements has the Minister made in attracting a new operator? Mr.Carter: Mr.

Speaker, I do not want to build up expectations in that area. It would be cruel, I think. But I can say that there is a possibility, yes, that the fish plant will be operating in time for this winter's fishery. Nothing definite, mind you, but there are negotiations going on and maybe within a few days we will be able to say more about it. Mr.Speaker: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank. Mr. Matthews: Further supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Would the Minister be able to indicate to the House and to the people of the Province if the Minister and his Department are offering any incentives, financial or otherwise, to attract a new operator, similar to that offered at Twillingate - a $1 lease, $30,000 a month management fee in an attempt to have the plant re-opened for this winter season for the people and the employees in Port aux Basques? Mr.Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr.Carter: Mr. Speaker, I said a moment ago that negotiations were ongoing.

And I am not aware at this point in time if in fact the people that are negotiating for the plant will require any kind of special help. I can only say that if and when they do make such a request, we will then look at it, Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Humber East. Ms Verge: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are for the Minister L7 October 25, 1990 vol XLI No. 64 R7

of Justice about the meeting which well, and which she accurately took place at Corner Brook city repeated, is whether or not I ever hall Tuesday night on the Fisher told the Mayor that we would not Institute. Yesterday, the have the meeting if she were in Minister of Justice told the House attendance. That is not the case of Assembly, quote: at no time and that is completely accurate in did I tell the Mayor of Corner , my reply. May I say as well, Mr.

Brook that if he decided to admit Speaker, that on behalf of the Ms Verge to the meeting that there people of Corner Brook I would would be no meeting,' However, like to take very strong exception Mr. Speaker, Tuesday mid—day to her characterization of the before the meeting, the Mayor of Mayor as a liar, because I have Corner Brook told me that if I been following the controversy, insisted on going to the meeting obviously, and this is an attempt then the Minister of Justice and by. the Member to deflect attention the Minister of Education would from the real issue.

I want to probably back out and call off the point out to the public, and meeting. Furthermore, Mr. Members of this House of Assembly, Speaker, the Mayor of Corner that the city of Corner Brook has Brook, yesterday, told CBC radio endorsed the proposal and that the 'On The Go' that he discussed my Member's interest in this desire to attend the meeting with the Minister of Justice and that An Hon. Member: (inaudible) with both of them, both the Mayor and your liberal Mayor. the Minister, decided to keep me out. Mr. Speaker, how does the Mr.

Dicks: Those sorts of Minister of Justice explain the comments are not productive, Mr. discrepancy between what he told Speaker, and I very much resent the House of Assembly yesterday them. They are not to the point. and what the Mayor of Corher Brook The point of the matter is that has said? Is the Minister of the hon.

Member is trying to Justice calling the Mayor of deflect attention from the true Corner Brook a liar, or is the issue which is the Governments Minister now willing to admit that White Paper which has been it was he, the Minister of accepted by the people of the Justice, who pressured the Mayor Province and by the people. of of Corner Brook to keep me out of Corner Brook in particular. the meeting? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Humber East. Mr. Dicks: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ms Verge: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Member's own comments do not contradict what I say, in fact they back it up. Her initial comment is that she spoke with the Mayor and he indicated that if he raised the matter we would probably back out. The question as put to me in Hansard, which I read before I came in here as LB October 25, 1990 Vol XLI The people of Corner Brook indeed have not accepted the Government's decision to put Fisher Institute under Western Community College. The Minister will probably find that out in the next election. Mr. Speaker: Order, please! No. 64 RB

S S r L The hon. Member is on a supplementary. Ms Verg,g: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, My supplementary is actually for the Premier. The Premier's executive assistant based in Corner Brdok, Ed Joyce, said on CFCB radio yesterday, quote, 'I was working with Paul Dicks to help arrange the meeting.' If it was not the Minister of Justice or the Minister of Education who pressured the Mayor, either directly or indirectly, to exclude me from the meeting - Mr. Speaker: Order, please! This is an appropriate time to read to hon. Members the Standing Orders related to our questions. The Chair has been accepting this to an extent but I think we are overdoing it and I want to remind hon. Members about 31(

d) of our own Standing Orders which says: Oral Questions must not be prefaced by the reading of letters, telegrams, newspaper extracts or

preambles of any kind. The Member can obviously allude to it and the Chair has been accepting a sentence or so, but we are getting to the stage now where we are reading long statements. So the Member can definitely allude to it, but not read the statement. The hon. Member for Humber East Ms_Verge: Thank you, Mr. Speaker I was in the middle of my question when Your Honour rose. I will restate my question, minus the

preamble. If it was not the Minister of Justice or the Minister of Education who asked directly or indirectly the Mayor of Corner Brook to exclude me from the meeting, will the Premier tell the House if it was his assistant, Mr. Joyce, who asked the Mayor to bar me from the meeting? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier. Premier kdells: The hon. Member - Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Premier Wells: It is sad to see that she has degenerated to this level. I can say with absolute certainty that if he did so, he did not do so on my request.

I can say with great confidence, knowing the gentleman as I do, I have no doubt that he did not. And I am kind of sad to see the Member has degenerated to this kind of level of behaviour. It is really sad to see. Sothe Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Humber East. Ms Verge: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Order, please! Ms Verge: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary to the Premier. I accept the Premier's word.

I honestly do not think the Premier himself was involved in any way in the skulduggery that his Ministers and his assistant were involved in with the Mayor of Corner Brook to exclude me from a meeting I had every right to attend. Will the Premier ensure the House of Assembly that in future his Ministers and his officials will not connive to pressure municipalities or other groups to exclude their MHAs from meetings? 1-9 October 25, 1990 Vol XLI No. 64 R9

Mr. Simms: A good question. attend. . Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier An Hon. Member: Right on! Premier Wells: Mr. Speaker, let Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member me state clearly what the for Burin - Placentia Nest. government policy has been and will continue to be in the Mr. Tobin: Mr. Speaker, based on future. Any municipality, what the Premier just said I have municipal council, or other group a question. in the Province, or other individuals for that matter, who Mr. Speaker: Order, please! wants his or her or their MH•A to attend a meeting is most welcome. The hon.

Member is not supposed to They will not find any resistance rise in his place and debate a from any Member of this question and answer that was given government. But, Mr. Speaker, we by somebody. The hon. Member is are not going to have any MHA on a question. direct the way Government conducts its meetings with any groups or Mr. Simms: The hon. Member has individuals. not even spoken yet. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member made - a reference to what the Premier An Hon. Member: Right on! said. .

Premier Wells: We are not going to pressure a situation where any MHA will intrude or pressure himself or herself on a meeting to which he or she is not invited, andin fact probably should not be participating as this Member seems to want to do all the time. I have attended a number of meetings where the Member has sat there, and I can only say that my experience at every one of the meetings is that it has been a political, disruption, and it interfered with the meeting, and it has made a mess of most of the meetings. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Premier Wells: Mr.

Speaker, notwithstanding that, if any group want that Member or any other Member to attend a meeting with any Member of this Government the Minister concerned will ensure that the Member is entitled to Mr. _Woodford: He did not say it. He said based on. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West. Mr. Tobin: Mr. Speaker, the Premier has just made a statement and I want to ask him a question. Mr. Speaker: I am sorry Mr.

Tobin: How can he square with what he just said when the shipyard at Marystown sent an invitation list in to the Minister of Transportation for the christening of the Flanders with my name on it, and the Minister of Transportation took my name from it and said he was not sending me an invitation. How do you square that? I was invited by the shipyard. An Hon. Member: Hear hear! Right on.' . 1-10 October 25, 1990 Vol XLI No. 64 RiO

Mr.jpeaker: The hon. the Premier. Premier Wells: Mr. Speaker, I do not know the details but I lAP111 find out. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) be made as to the applicants this summer. President of Treasury us if Cabinet has yet the successful bids, at they be announced? successful Could the Board tell decided on d when will Speaker: The hon. the President of Treasury Board. Mr. Baker: All I can say, Mr.

Speaker, is that I am knowledgeable about the fact that the proposal is being considered by the Minister of Municipal Affairs, and when it goes through the various stages, it at some point will be'presented to Cabinet. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Fogo. Mr. Winsor: Since the. President of Treasury Board is not aware, and the officials have told me it is before Cabinet, perhaps the Premier can indicate, and in view of the budgetary cutbacks and freezes for 1991/1992, is the Government still committed to the delivery of two facilities a year as was in the March 29 statement? Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Premier. Premier Wells: I do not know what officials are misleading the hon. Member, but no officials could tell him what was before Cabinet. Premier Wells : Mr. Speaker. I will answer the question. Some Hon. Members: (Inaudible). Premier Wells: If they want somebody else - Mr. Speaker: Order please! PremierWells: - to answer it, they can get the answer from their side, Mr. Speaker. • Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order please! • Before recognizing the hon. Member I want to apologize to the hon. Member for Burin -. Placentia West, • but hon.

Members will realize that in the past some hon. Member getting up would make a statement about a question previously answered and then go and ask the question to another Member. And this is what I thought the hon. Member was doing. The Chair apologizes The hon. the Member for Fogo. Mr. Winsor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question was going to be to the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. In his absence I will ask the President of Treasury 8oard. On March 29 of this year the Minister announced the guidelines for the Regional Recreational Facilities Programme. He also indicated that announcements would Mr.

Winsor: The Minister told me yesterday. An Hon. Member: No he did not. I was next to the Minister, he did not say that. An Hon. Member: What's that? An Hon. Member: I was there when you asked him. Mr. Speaker: Order please! Order Lii October 25, 1990 vol XLI No. 64 Ru

r please! Premier Wells: The basis for the question of the hon. Member clearly is unfounded, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Fogo. Mr. Winsor: This question is again to the President of Treasury Board. In view of the fact that it has been announced that the budget for the different Departments has been frozen at the 1990/1991 level for 1991/1992, and in 1990 there were no new capital works or recreational facilities, can we conclude that there will again be none this year, as there were none budgeted last year? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the President of Treasury Board. Mr.

Baker: The Member is confusing a number of things. Direction has been given to Departments to freeze their operational funding, to have a look at how the Department can operate, based on last year's funding. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Baker: Now, just listen now. Then they come back and we make decisions based on what we get back from the Departments. What the hon. Member is talking about is capital money and not operational money, and I can only assure the hon. Member that it will be dealt with in the process. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes, Mr. Hearn: Thank You, Mr. Speaker.

Now that Bill C-21 has been rescued from the vindictive claws of the Liberal Senators, the Minister of Employment and Immigration has announced that most of the provisions of the Act will take effect as of November 18th.

I ask the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations if she has contacted her counterpart to ask that the provision whereby Newfoundlanders can qualify, in most areas of the Province at least, with ten stamps take place immediately, because many of those who have had seasonal employment are now waiting to file, but cannot file until November 18th, which puts an added stress on them and their families? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations Ms Cowan: Thank YOU Mr. Speaker. The hon. Barbara McDougall is going to be in St.

John's on the 29th of this month, and I have quite a lengthy agenda to bring to her attention. There are a variety of employment problems in the Province - those related to the fisheries, the Minister of Fisheries will be present with me at that particular stage, and a variety of other situations which relate to employment, and I will be at that time bringing that type of situation which you asked me to her attention, yes. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for St. Marys The Capes. Mr. Hearn: Mr.

Speaker, what the Minister has said is no, s h e has not as Minister responsible for labour relations in the Province, contacted her counterpart in Ottawa to ask her to hurry up and implement the provisions in the Act. . [1 L12 October 25, 1990 Vol XLI No. 64 R12

. . . I ask the Minister, will she immediately, as the representative of Government and of the people out there who are starving, lining up at the welfare offices, immediately contact her counterpart and impress upon her the need to implement that

section of the Act which will enable many Newfoundlanders, actually thousands of Newfoundlanders to apply today, not next week or the week after, but today for their UI benefits. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations Ms Cowan: It is very easy to stand up, Mr. Speaker, and make a variety of statements sounding as if catastrophe is about to fall, and .that there are thousands of people lined up at UI offices and so on, waiting. My preference is Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Order, please! Ms Cowan: I have been often in contact with the Minister of - Mr. Speaker: Order, please!

The Minister is experiencing great difficulty in answering, so I will ask hon. Members, please to extend her this courtesy. Ms Cowan: What they are afraid to hear, Mr. Speaker, is that I have been acting in a very responsible manner regarding unemployment in the Province and they do not want to hear it. The hon. Barbara McDougall, is well aware because of a variety of correspondence from me, from my colleagues, I from colleagues on that side of the House, I have been bringing the problems to her attention all summer.

I was not about to go and call the woman yesterday afternoon based on some figures that I yet do not have full grasp of and cry wolf before I am sure exactly what I can bring to her attention. What sectors are affected, what parts of the Province are affected, how many there are and so on, she cannot make decisions until she knows these things and when she comes to that meeting next week, I will have that information for her. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes. Mr. Hearn: Mr.

Speaker, this is incredible, for people all around this Province to listen to the Minister state she does not care that they are lined up at the welfare offices. Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister, in light of the fact that her Government has done absolutely nothing to help people obtain employment this year, many of them with any assistance at all, LAJ±th any make work programs, with any fishery response programs, would have qualified long ago for UIC with their fourteen weeks.

Now that they have the option of obtaining ten, will she do whatever she can to make sure that they will receive these benefits as soon as possible? Because when you get thousands of people applying after the lath. the delays that will take place because of the onset will mean many of them will not get any benefits until Christmas. That is why it is so important for her to move immediately today and ask her counterpart if she would implement that provision immediately? And I No. 64 R13 1_13 October 25, 1990 vol XLI

[IJ am sure it will be done. Mr. Simms: A reasonable request Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. Ms Cowan: First of all, Mr. Speaker, let me say that the gentleman is being totally erroneous in the statements that he has made that this Government has done nothing during the problems that have faced us over the last little while. I do not know what he calls the Fisheries Response Program, if that was not a positive response. I do not know what he calls our Employment Stimulation Program, if that was not a positive response.

And we are continuing to monitor all the time to see where we can step in. But we have to be sensible. Again these people do not understand what sensibl.e means. We have to see how the regulations that are now in effect are going to impact on the people in Newfoundland. I do not know how many have ten weeks. I do not know how many have five. I do not know how many have fourteen. Once that is known we will be able to make some sensible and responsible responses. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: Question Period has expired, if I have told the time right again.

Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. r.cilbe,rt: A couple of days ago, the hon. the Member for Kilbride asked what were the specific items removed during the second tender call for the Ossokmanuan Reservoir bridge, and why was the contract changed to remove these two items? The two items removed during the tender call were the following: strengthening of the ?? River bridge, strengthening of the Mountain Brook bridge.

The two minor items were removed because the Department's estimated cost of the two items was a total of $20,000,

whereas the bid by McNamara on the original hid for the two items was $70,000. My Department's staff removed the two items during the second tender call, as it was felt a lower bid could be realized by tendering the two items separately. Petitions Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Humber East. Ms Verge: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I wish to present a petition of several Memorial University students attending the St. John's campus of Memorial, who come from all over the Province.

The prayer of the petition is as follows: Therefore your petitioners urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to reverse its change of policy and continue to permit social assistance recipients to retain a substantial portion of maintenance and child support payments as well as regular social assistance. Mr. Speaker, these petitioners are protesting the Government's October 1 social assistance cut, which has resulted in a surprise . L14 October 25, 1990 Vol XLI No. 64 R14

S . decease in income for about 1,000 single mothers and their children. The drop in income amounts to up to $115 a month. The petitioners, some of whom are single mothers who are affected and hurt by this change, are pleaing with the Government to reverse that policy change and restore income to these single parent families who have lost money, and also to restore the incentive for single parents to seek court orders for family support, as well as to restore the incentive for judgement debtors to honour court orders. Mr.

Speaker, last Thursday during the Late Show, the Premier promised the House of Assembly, 'I do not have all the details at my fingertips, but I will get them and find out precisely what the situation is . ' The Premier went on to repeat his basic commitment of fairness and balance. He said over and over again that he and his Government will always treat people fairly. Mr. Speaker, my colleague, the Member for Port au Port has pointed out the discrepancy in current social assistance regulations that is illustrated in a situation where a family on social assistance undergoes a change of marital status.

Before marriage breakup, if the father living with the mother and children has a part—time job and earns some income, then the family is able to benefit by up to $115 per month because the father's income from the job is classified as earned income, and the regulations contain a sliding scale formula for deduction allowing an incentive for the father to work.

Now if the marriage breaks up and the father moves out leaving the mother with the children, and the absent father, the estranged father pays child support to the mother, then the mother is unable to benefit from that payment of child support because all of it, dollar for dollar, is substracted from the social assistance. Mr.

Speaker, I trust in the week that has passed since last Thursday afternoon, when the Premier promised to become informed about the details of the social assistance program and the harmful effect on 1,000 single parent families from the Government's October 1st decision, that he will now rise in his place and announce to the House and the public that the Government is reversing that change. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Simms: No response. Orders of the Day Mr. Baker: Motion one, M. Speaker. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions, Mr.

Speaker left the Chair. Committee of the Whole Mr. Chairman: Order, please! The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr.Rideout: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I want to take a few minutes today to make a few remarks as we debate the Bill L15 October 25, 1990 vol XLI No. 64 R15

before the House, under the name the Minister of Finance the right I of the Minister of Finance, to to make his speech before the borrow several hundreds of television cameras here in this millions of dollars more on the Chamber. credit of this Province. Now, Mr. Chairman, lest anybody be wondering why for the last six days or so, I guess since this session resumed last Tuesday, the Opposition is taking all the time it needs and all the time it feels it might need to debate this particular Bill, lust let me say a couple of things. There is no way anymore, Mr..

Chairman, for anybody in this Province to have confidence in the competence and the ability of the Minister of Finance. There is absolutely no way that we can have confidence in the Minister anymore. This Minister, Mr. Chairman, came before this House with a Budget on the 15th of March, i'ntroduced that Budget and made one of the most glowing Budget Speeches that any Minister of Finance, I suppose, has, ever delivered. He told the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that he had a good news Budget. He told the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that he had a goodie bag for everybody, Mr.

Chairman: There was increased money for the health care system in the Province, there was new financing for education, there was increased funding for social services, there were new capital projects here, there and everywhere. And on top of it all, Mr. Chairman, on top of it all, this Minister of Finance was such a great and competent Finance Minister, he could deliver all those goodies to everybody and still run a $10 million surplus on current accounts.

That was the message that went out over the public airways of this Province, because we co-opera'ted and gave So the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that night, Mr. Chairman, collectively breathed a great sigh of relief. This new Government, this Minister had delivered a goodie bag budget; they had delivered something good for everybody. There was no bad news in it. But, Mr. Chairman, we knew.

We, on this side of the House, after a very quick glance at the Budget, knew that the Budget was a deceitful, fraudulent document and within hours of the Minister delivering that document in this Chamber, our finance critic and others were saying that as we were interviewed by the various media in the Province. Why did we know that, Mr. Chairman? Why did we know that it was a deceitful, fraudulent document? Well, it did not take too much research. Mr. Chairman.

First of all, the Minister of Finance didn't have the honesty and the integrity on the day he read his speech to this House to announce that he had ordered the Liquor Corporation to increase the tax on liquor. Now, that is a sure sign, Mr. Chairman. It is a sure sign of dishonesty and dec€.it when a Minister of Finance does not tell the House directly in the Budget document the revenue measures he is planning to impose, or ask Crown Corporations to impose on the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. That was the first sign of a fraudulent deceitful document. After we looked a little more carefully, Mr.

Chairman, it was plain to see, knowing that the rest of Canada was entering into a L16 October 25, 1990 vol XLI No. 64 R16

S . C recession, knowing that the equalization formula was such that if there was a slowdown in the economy of Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia in particular, that the equilization formula would therefore dictate that there would be less equalization money flowing to Newfoundland from the Government of Canada. Any Grade III student, Mr. Chairman, if they knew about the equalization formula, could figure that out. It did not take a mad doctor of a genius to figure it out. But it took honesty, Mr.

Chairman, to tell it to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, and that is something that the Minister of Finance did not have and still does not have. Everybody knew the recession was upon us, everybody knew that the funds were going to be less from equalization and therefore should have budgeted accordingly, Mr. Chairman. Those two things were bad enough, Mr. Chairman, but the Minister introduced a Budget to the House, and I believe within a short while after that the House adjourned for the Easter recess. Before the Budget debate actually began in this House, in April, Mr.

Chairman, the Government had been verbally, and then in writing, informed by the Government of Canada that they would have a $63.5 million shortfall on equalization - before the actual budget debate began. All the while our critic was going through his three and half or four days of brilliant oratory, telling what was wrong with this Budget, the Government, the Minister of Finance, knew that what that gentleman was saying was true, was true, that they had ove-estirnated and that they knew they had deliberately overestimated the amount of equalization. Now, Mr.

Chairman, having overestimated it and then having deliberately covered up that error, and not having the honesty and audacity to come before this House and the people and admit it, they allowed a charade to take place in this House for thirty-five or forty days. The Budget did not pass in this Chamber in its final form until, I believe it was, May 29. It came down in the House on March 15, the House adjourned until sometime in April, the Budget debate began on April 4, and May 29 the Budget finally cleared this Chamber.

For twenty-five or thirty days this Minister allowed this House to be misled, for twenty-five or thirty days this Premier deliberately kept appropriate financial information from the Members of this Chamber. For fifteen or twenty mornings and nights Committees of this Legislature sat and examined a fraudulent set of. numbers, Mr. Chairman.

The Resource Committee of this Legislature, examining the Department of Mines and Energy, and Fisheries, and so on; the Social Committee examining Municipal Affairs and Health and all those, all those Committees, Members from both sides of the House, in good faith gave up their mornings and nights to sit down and deliberate over and ask questions about, and try to get answers to, a fraudulent set of numbers . Because the numbers were fraudulent. They were not real. And the Government knew they were not real.

The Government knew verbally on March 30 and they knew in writing by April 4 that the numbers were not real. What else did they do, Mr. L17 October 25, 1990 Vol XLI No. 64 R17

r L Chairman? It has not come to light yet, but we will be getting to it over the next few days, and it has not come to light because there are more important matters to address in Health and Education and so on. But only half this Government's problem on the current account deficit, Mr. Chairman, can be accounted for by the shortfall in equalization payments. Only $63.5 million of a $130 million problem can be accounted for by that one fact.

The fact that you lost your $10 million that you were budgeting for surplus on current accounts, and the fact that you are running up a $120 million deficit, together mean that you are $130 million, in total, behind. So only half of that $130 million can be accounted for by trying to blame it on Ottawa and less equalization - one half. What about the other $60 million? How do you account for that? Nobody, Mr. Chairman, on the Government side, including the Minister or the Premier, has attempted to explain that $60 million question mark that is still out there. Well, it has come from a couple of areas, Mr.

Chairman. It is now evident that the minister again, I suspect deliberately, but certainly the minister again grossly overestimated the revenue from retail sales tax. The take by this Government on retail sales tax this year is dramatically down, other Provincial Government revenues are dramatically, down, so, therefore, Mr. Chairman, the Government has yet to explain to this House what has happened to the other sixty-or-so million dollars. Mr. Murphy: Ask Mr. Wilson. Mr. Rideout: It has nothing to do with Mr. Wilson on the other part.

And if our Finance critic is correct, as he has proven to be so many times over the last several months, our Finance critic predicted the day the Budget ci:ime down that the surplus would be a deficit. By July, I think he was saying it would be $45 million or $55 million, and a few weeks after the Government admitted that it was $45 million. A few weeks after, again in August, our Finance Committee was saying that it was going to be up around $130 million or $140 million, and finally the minister and the Premier admitted $120 million.

So the person with the foresight, the person who was able to predict accurately was not the Minister of Finance with the team of bureaucratics and advisors that he has, it was the Member for Mount Pearl, our Finance critic, Mr. Chairman, and he has been proven accurate on all three occasions. Now, Mr.

Chairman, if the Government, . having been totally dishonest with this House and the people of this Province from at least March 30, wanted to be contrite, wanted Lo try to make amends, if the government wanted to convince people that, look, yes, we made a blunder, you can call it a deliberate blunder if you like, but we are now going to try to set a new standard for ourselves and set a new pace, if the government had done that, Mr.

Chairman, sometime or another since this House opened, they would have been in here with a revised Budget; they would h a v e. been in here with a mini-Budget so that we would have before us the right numbers, so that we would be able to intelligently debate and ask questions about the revenue and the expenditures of the . L18 October 25, 1990 vol XLI No. 64 R18

•! Pi Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. But no, Mr. Chairman, that would have been the right thing to do. But the right thing to do automatically means that this Goyernment will not do it. Now, Mr. Chairman, if this Government will not do it, then it is the responsibility of this Opposition, something that we will continue to do for the next several days, weeks if necessary, to use this Loan Bill, which is a money bill, a borrowing bill, to try to elicit from the Government the true financial state of this Province. And if that takes us from now until Christmas Eve, Mr.

Chairman, on this Bill itself, then that is what we will do. The Government should have come in here with a mini—Budget. The government should have presented the truth to this House, and we could have debated that and got on with it, and passed the Loan Bill in the interim if the Government needed it. But no, the Government decided not to do that. So the situation we have in this House now, Mr. Chairman, is totally of the Government's making, The Government has chosen that road, the government has chosen that path, and, therefore, Mr.

Chairman, that means that we will be on this Loan Bill until we get the answers we are looking for. And there are a lot of questions, Mr. Chairman, which need to be answered. The Minister of Finance is not in his seat, but I hope he is listening or has somebody listening. Because I am going to monitor this debate very, very closely for the next several days, and if I don't hear the answers to the questions I am going to pose, this Loan Bill is not going through. We can speak as often as we like on this, Mr. Chairman. There are no time limits. There is no seventy—five hours, no fifteen days.

There are none of those time constraints that a Budget has around it, which the Government would have had to its advantage if they had brought in a Budget. This Loan Bill can be in this House until the March 31, 1991 if we want to keep it here, and we can keep going back and forth. Now nobody need rise over there if they don't want to; but those of us on this side can get up and make a few remarks, sit down and catch our breath and then get up again. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) warmed up yet. Mr.

Rideout: Our critic is only warming up, so I am telling the Government that they had better start providing some answers or this Loan Bill is not going through very, very quickly. I hope the Government House Leader is listening to this, as well, Mr. Chairman. Now, Mr. Chairman, in the Budget of March 15th, the Minister estimated total revenues of $1,393,946,000 from the Government of Canada, that is uihat he estimated.

Two weeks later the Minister was officially informed that the Province would receive $63.7 million less, that meant, therefore, that the revised estimate of Government of Canada income to the Province, was $1,330,246,000. Now, is that the revised figure, is that now the correct figure, is that now written in stone, is that what we are going to get, for sure? Does the Minister of Finance now know No. 64 R19 L19 October 25, 1990 Vol XLI

El that? Mr. Chairman, a revised Budget or a statement by the Minister of Finance would tell us that, and, is it not important that this House know, when something in excess of 50 per cent of our Budget comes from the Government of Canada in transfer payments of one form or another, it is vital, Mr. Chairman, that this House know that, and it is fundamental to our parliamentary democracy that the Minister of Finance provide . that information, either in the form of a new Budget or in some other form.

I have already made the point that the deficit now - it might be more tomorrow - but the last official figure we had means that the Government actually dropped at least $130 million, because the Goyernment was budgeting something in excess of $10 million in surplus and now they are saying it is a $120 million deficit; so the $10 million is gone and $120 million more is gone, so that is a total of $130 million, not to mention some of the tax increases which came in this year, that had they not come in, would have meant the difference would have been larger, so if you look at - An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr.

Rideout: I beg your pardon? An Hon. Member: About $150 million. Mr. Rideout: About $150 million. If you look at the total fiscal picture, so far in 1990, this Government was not in a $10 million surplus position. It was not in a $120 million deficit position, it was probably closer to $150 million or $160 million, because you had to take into account what would have happened if those tax increases had not kicked in. Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Finance should also be able to tell the House what forecasts were used for those new numbers which he and the Premier gave to the people of this Province in October.

In fact he should come to this House, Mr. Chairman, and produce them, and if there was a new Budget or a mini Budget, then, obviously those forecasts and those documents would be part of the Budget document itself, but we do not have any of that. The only access we have is Question Period, trying to get answers from the Minister of Finance, who likes to hug his seat like a land lover likes to hold on to the land, that is the only access we have, or hopefully, in debate.

The new estimates that the Minister used to ar ive at this sad story should be available to this House, and if there was a Budget, they would be available to this House. Mr. Chairman, what about revenues, provincial revenues. We know now that revenue on retail sales tax is down, what about other major provincial revenues, is there any significant decline in those, Mr. Chairman? If it is, that is going to make the problem worse, yet the Minister of Finance has not made any effort whatsoever to tell us about provincial revenues.

And what •about expenditure, what about the capital and current account expenditure for which the Minister is responsible, what is the most recent revised figures on expenditure? . . L20 October 25, 1990 Vol XLI No. 64 R20

. C . If expenditure is up on current account, and if expenditure is up beyond what was projected on capital account, obviously this deficit situation gets worse. If it is down, obviously it improves, but what is it? The people of Newfoundland and Labrador have a right to know, The Opposition have a responsibility to ask the questions, the Minister has a responsibility to answer them, but again, if there had been a Budget, Mr. Chairman, we would all know, because it would be included in the documents. So, Mr.

Chairman, these are technical, I realize, so technical that they are not the appropriate type of questions to pose at Question Period perhaps, so it is only appropriate that they be posed in debate here in this Committee, but it is useless to pose them if there is going to be no response from the other side. It is useless and a waste of time to do it, Mr. Speaker, but we are going to continue to do it because we believe it is vitally important that those answers be arrived at. The people must know.

We have seen in Question Period in this House over the last several days, I suppose perhaps the biggest farce that you have seen in this Chamber in years. When the Premier announced a $120 million deficit a few weeks ago, he at the same time announced that there would be a freeze imposed on all Government spending for 1991-92. The Minister of Health, Mr.

Speaker, went off to Corner Brook within a few days of that and met with the representatives of the hospitals, nursing homes, and so on in that region, and from the information that the Minister of Health gave to those people they were able to quickly calculate that a freeze of their next year's budget at this year's level meant to them a 12 per cent cutback. They were able to very quickly calculate that a 12 per cent cutback meant to them $60 million less to spend on health care in Newfoundland and Labrador next year. How did they arrive at 12 per cent, Mr. Speaker?

Well, there is normal inflation, whatever that might run. A good guess is probably S per cent next year. There are salary increases next year that were negotiated this year. I believe that is 7 per cent, which is 12 per cent right there. Heat and light is gone up, not to mention that house supplies and all that is going to go up. I would say, Mr. Speaker, that those managers whom the Premier crowed so much about a few days ago were very conservative. When they say they need an additional 12 per cent next year just to be even, not to be ahead, Mr.

Speaker, not to make any progress in improving the system, but just to be even, when they say they need 12 per cent I say to those managers, I believe you have underestimated that by a percentage point or two. But let us give them the benefit of the doubt, let us use their 12 per cent. Their 12 per cent automatically means $60 million less they have to spend. Do you know what the Minister's answer was in Corner Brook under some questioning from those people?

The Minister came into this House a few days ago and told us there was a great deal of understanding, and that the administrators and the managers were going to be as helpful as they could. There was almost a love—in between the people he was chopping and had to impose his chops, and him and the Government and the health care administrators. Listening to the Minister ask the questions you L21 October 25, 1990 Vol XLI No, 64 R21

. would almost think there was a love—in out in Corner Brook, Mr. Speaker. Nell, the only ovation, I have been told, not by one person who was there, or not by two, but by more than that, I have been told that the only response the Minister got by way of a clap, by way of showing some signs of appreciation for what the Minister was saying, was when he was asked the question, is the Government going to take responsibility for this? Because we are not, we are imposing what you are dictating and demanding to us. We are not going to take responsibility. The Minister made this revealing comment.

He said I cannot speak for the rest of the Government, I cannot speak for the rest of the Ministers and the Premier, he said, but I can tell you I am going to take my share of responsibility. Bravo to the Minister. He went on to say, I am going to take my share of responsibility because we are a one—term Government anyway. That is exactly what he said in the room in Corner Brook with dozens and dozens of witnesses, Mr. Speaker.

That is when he got the ovation, that is when he got the response from the hospital administrators, when he admitted to them that he was going to take his share of responsibility because they were. a one—term Government. Now, the Premier should check this out because if other Ministers are going around the Province admitting that to the groups - the Minister thinks it is funny but this actually happened. There were several tens of people in the room and I have heard from a number of them. That is how the Minister sloughed it off. An Hon. Member: Did you say that? Mr.Decker: No. Mr.

Rideout: No, he did not say that like he did not say what quoted today to the nurse. Mr. Decker: As usual his facts are wrong. Mr. Rideout: There are too many witnesses to this one I say to the Minister - too many witnesses to this one. I know you will skate, and you will try to skate and you will try to bamboozle your way out of it, Mr. Chairman. An Hon. Member: You are in the corner now. Mr. Rideout: You are in the corner, because there are too many witnesses, j u s t too many witnesses and the Minister knows who they are, they were there from Corner Brook, Stephenville, St.

Anthony, Deer Lake and Baic 'Jerte and Springdale. There are too many, you cannot hide this one. And the Minister actually said it, and so he should, Mr. Chairman. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Rideout: Pardon? An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Rideout: Oh, yes, absolutely. I am glad it is rubbing off on you. Delighted, Mr. Chairman, and I hope the Minister listens to our predictions, Mr. Chairman, because they will be just as accurate as the budgetary predictions that our colleague for Mount Pearl has made on this Budget which we are trying to debate here today. Now as I was saying, Mr.

Chairman, after the Premier made the announcement and the Minister met with the hospital administrators, we then of course were in the 1] [1 L22 October 25, 1990 vol XLI No. 64 R22

[1 n situation where the House had reopened, and obviously and naturally it is our responsibility to try to elicit the impact of this budgetary freeze on the whole system. But for the last several days they have been concentrating on the health care system, the education system, and social services in this Province. We have heard from dozens of hospital administrators. We have heard from dozens of senior citizens home administrators. People who speak for the nurses union, people who speak for NAPE, people who speak for CUPE. We have heard from them all over the last several days. And all of those groups, Mr.

Chairman, fall into the category of the managers that the Pr.emier talked about last week. When we begin the questioning on cuts in the health care system last week the Premier said: the people who know the most about the system are the managers, the hospital administrators, the home administrators, they know more about any of this than the Minister of Health or the President of Treasury Board. So we are not going to tell them where they have to come up with the savings. What we have done is to tell them that there is a freeze on their Budget.

What we have done is tell them to go and look at your Budget and come back and tell us how you effect those savings because there aint no more money. There is not a red copper. There is not another penny. You have to live on your present Budget and that is it. Now, Mr. Chairman, those professionals, those managers have gone out, and in many cases, there is some left to go, but in many cases they have crunched the numbers. They have done the exercise. And they have gone to their boards and in many cases their boards have approved the managers' recommendations. And it has been submitted to the Department of Health.

In every case, Mr. Chairman, when you get up in this House and ask the Premier or the Minister about this board, like valley vista Senior Citizens Home out in Springdale, for example, who have done their numbers, who have gone to their board, who have got their boards approval for this dastardlV deed, and who sent the board's recommendations off to the Minister of Health and off to the Department of Health.

When you get up and ask the Premier will he confirm that this particular cut at the valley vista Home in Springdale means the closure of twenty beds and the layoff of fifteen employees: No, no, no, no that is not the case at all. It does not mean that. Mr.

Chairman, the Premier cannot out of one side of his face one day say that it is the managers who have the expertise to run the system, and we are counting on them to run the system, and they are going to run the system under a frozen budget, and the next day say the managers do not know what they are talking about: the unions do not know what they are talking about; the nurses do not know what they. are talking about: the Opposition do not have a clue what it is talking about, Mr. Chairman. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr.

Rideout: Can I ask the Table if there is any particular reason why I have three minutes left? Mr. Chairman: The limit is half an hour. Mr. Rideout: Oh! According to L23 October 25, 1990 vol XLI No. 64 R23

Mr. Speaker: Point of order. I The hon. Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island. Standing Order 49, Your Honour, the Leader of the Opposition and the Premier has an hour, every time they rise in this House except for Private Member's Day. Mr. Chairman: We will just look at that. Mr. Rideout: Maybe you can just look at that. Nevertheless now having said that, Your Honour, that is just to protect my rights, I do not intend to carry on for an hour without allowing somebody else an opportunity. But as I was saying, Mr. Chairmafl, the dishonesty of this Government shines through in every example.

It is not only in the Budget, but it is in how you react to when you have a problem. The Government has admitted a budgetary problem. And now, Mr. Chairman, having put the clamps to the people who have to impose the cutbacks, having put the clamps to the people who have to go out in the field and do the dirty work for them when we pose the questions in this House, what do they do? They turn around and they give a kick to those experts, to those managers, Mr. Chairman, the people they say they trust. They turn around and they kick them hard.

And try to make the public of Newfoundland and Labrador believe that they are fools, incompetents, that they do not know what they are talking about. Yet the day before that they were the experts, the people that the Government depended on to run the show for them, Mr. Chairman, So, Mr. Chairman, it is not good enough. The experts in the health care system, Mr. Chairman, have confirmed - An Hon. Member: Point of order Mr. Walsh: Mr. Chairman, I am studying Standing Order 49, I may be absolutely wrong, but I would ask the Chair if they would - An Hon. Member: You probably are wrong. Mr.

Walsh: - please check to see. Because I do not see where that unlimited, or the hour - An Hon. Member: Not unlimited. Mr. Walsh: - is there. Mr. Chairman: Order please! Order please! Mr. Walsh: So I would &sk you - Mr. Chairman: Order please! The Chair is having that matber checked out. Mr. Rideout: To the point of order, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: Order please! Order please! Mr. Walsh: Just to the point of order again. I would not want the member - not that I would not by leave, of course - but would not want to set a precedent whereby he went beyond the three minutes that he is supposed to have left either.

Mr. Chairman: The hon. the Leader of the. Opposition. Mr. Rideout: Standing Order 49 (2), Mr. Chairman. I think Standing Order 49 (2) is the operative order. It says: "The Premier, the Leader of the 1-24 October 25, 1990 vol XLI No. 64 R24

S . . Opposition, a Minister moving a Government Order" - the Minister of Finance has moved a Government Order, right, a loan bill - and a Member replying thereto immediately after such Minister' so the critic from Mount Pearl, for example, would have an hour when replying to this particular bill. But the Leader of the Opposition and the Premier always have an hour, always as a right, every time they rise to their feet, except for Private Members Day. That is what that rule means. An Hon. Member: Thank you. Some Hon. Members: (Inaudible) Mr. Rideout: So, Mr.

Chairman, as I was saying, the Government has found itself in a financial mess because the Minister of Finance refused to pay any heed at all to the warning signs that the economy was starting to decline. And he was grossly over—optimistic not only in revenue from the Government of Canada but his own revenues, over which he has control, over which he does not need any advice from Ottawa in predicting how much they will be. As a result of that, Mr. Chairman, the Government has to start a significant slashing of expenditure. Mr. Windsor: He could not predict yesterday's weather. Mr.

Rideout: No, the Minister of Finance of this Province would not predict yesterday's weather, as my colleague from Mount Pearl reminds me. And there is a lot of truth to that, And in order to do that now they are going to make a savage attack on the health care system of this Province. Any improvement that was made over the last year or so, about which the Premier likes to brag, will be totally wiped out, Mr. Chairman, and more besides. So there is going to be a savage attack on the big spending Departments - Health, Education and Social Services.

And that is where the Premier and the Government are going to look first, Mr. Chairman. And they have done that by a freeze which in effect is a cutback. Because as I said, Mr. Chairman, the administrators, the managers, have now identified why it is a cutback. Because there is inflation, because they have extra salaries, because they have heat and light and so on, that a freeze at this year's level means you have less for next year. And Mr.

Chairman, is it not ironic that this Government of all Governments, when the Government of Canada announced a freeze in one of the programs last year, I do not know, the EPF or something I believe it was, when the Government of Canada announced a cap or a freeze on that last year, you could hear the howls, Mr. Chairman, from St. John's to Nain from this Government. Were they howling freeze, Mr. Chairman? Was that the groan that was coming out of Confederation Building, freeze? No, Mr. Chairman, the howl that was coming out of Confederation Building was cutback - not freeze, cutback. Well, Mr.

Chairman, if a Federal Government freeze is a cutback, then surely goodness a Provincial Government freez,e is also a cutback. When is this crowd going to get serious? Mr.Flight: Honourable. Mr.Rideout: When is this hon. crowd - thanks to my f r i e n d for Windsor -. Buchans. He is such a 1 25 October 25, 1990 vol XLI No. 64 R25

great parliamentary expert, I always listen to his recommendations. But, Mr. Chairman, when is this Government going to preach today what they preached yesterday? When is this Government going to be consistent today with what they had to say yesterday. Mr. Efford: (Inaudible). Mr. Rideout: Mr. Chairman, we are paying a Minister of Social Services $85,000 or $90,000 a year to do nothing but talk about pickles and the mess of a previous administration. Now, if that is the only initiative you can bring to Government, go down to Government House with your resignation, boy, for God's sake. An Hon.

Member: (Inaudible) that too. Mr. Chairman: Order, please! Order, please! Mr. Rideout: That is all you can hear out of the Minister of Social Services. Go out and talk to the single and separated mothers in this Province who you took $115 away from. That is who you should be talking about. Mr. Chairman, when you try to make legitimate points - An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Rideout: Go out and talk to the fire fighters whom you just robbed $2400 a year off.

You try to make legitimate points in this House and you got a parliamentary buffoon like the Minister of Social Service or the Minister of Health talking about pickles or the previous administration or something of that nature. An Hon. Member: Go back and fix the moose. Mr. Rideout: Go back to the hockey stick factories, and go back to the chocolate bar factories, go back to Churchill, Mr. Chairman. The Minister of Social Services is now part of a Government and it is now his responsibility to do something about the situation this Province finds itself in.

You can blame it all you like, Sir John, on somebody else, but the people out there now know, Mr. Chairman. The calls are coming in from teachers saying, we were misled, we were hoodwinked into voting Liberal in the last election. I cannot wait for the next chance to come. Mr. Efford: Not according to the following you had last weekend. Mr. Rideout: Mr. Chairman, again you see the value of the $85,000 or $90,000 salary that the Minister is getting, concerned about an event last weekend. Be concerned about the state of social services in this Province. That is your only concern.

That is all you are getting paid for, and do it and respond to this House through the way you do it, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Efford: I would wanL some money to pay off your debts, Mr. Rideout: You never had to pay off any debt belonging to me, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Efford: (Inaudible) did so. Mr. Rideout: Your debt. Mr. Chairman, do you see that hon. gentleman over there? Mr. Chairman: Order, please! Mr. Rideout: He was like it when L26 October 25, 1990 vol XLI No. 64 R26

. S he was over here. He would get up and make a misleading statement that caught the headline. Whether there was any truth to it or not the damage was done, and he has not changed one bit. He was irresponsible when he was over here and he is just as irresponsible today. Now, let me come back to the Health Care Budget, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Efford: (Inaudible). Mr.Rideout: No, Mr. Chairman. Forty—four days is better than zero days, because that gentleman will never get there. Mr. Efford: You are going to get some surprise. Mr. Rideout: I will get - a surprise, yes. Mr. R.

Aylward: (Inaudible) another shipyard. (Inaudible) another shipyard? Mr. Tobin: Nell, he will not be in the Cabinet very long. Mr. Rideout: Mr. Chairman, it does not matter to us whether the Minister of Health or the Premier doesn't like the questions that have to be asked about those cuts, it does not matter to us that the Government is refusing to address this freeze as a cut. The truth is now starting to get out, Mr. Chairman, from one end of this Province to the other. This freeze is exactly what we are saying it is, a cut. It means that the Boards will have less money to spend. Now, Mr.

Chairman, the other Minister who has tried to do some fancy skating over the last several days is the Minister of Education. The Minister of Education is going to run out of skating room pretty soon, because the school boards know, the school trustees know, everybody involved in education knows that a frozen budget means for thein at least twelve or thirteen per cent less money to spend next year. Mr. Baker: No. Mr. Rideout: Mr. Chairman, here is the President of Treasury Board saying no. Nell, Mr. Chairman, is it not a fact that you can pretty well count on a 5 per cent inflation rate next year?

Would the President of Treasury Board confirm that? Is there going to be zero inflation, do you think? Mr. Baker: (Inaudible). Mr. Rideout: Nell, Mr. Chairman, we are moving slowly along. Some Hon. Members: - Oh, oh! Mr. Chairman: Order, please! Mr. Rideout: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let us go back to the health care -system now. The minister has confirmed you can count on around a S per cent inflation rate-. Is it not a fact that a number of parts of the health care system have 7 per cent salary increases coming to them next year? - An Hon. Member: Most of them, if not all. Mr.

Rideout: Most if not all, some already negotiated. Is that not a fact? Mr. Baker: It averages out to a cost of 5.5 per cent, yes Mr. Aideout: Nell, the system is 1-27 October 25: 1990 Vol XLI No. 64 R27

saying 7 per cent, or go up? An Hon. Member: How about (inaudible) the health care system? Mr. Rideout: Let us take the Minister's figure. I think the association's figure is conservative, by the way, but let me take the Ministers, S per cent for inflation and 5.5 per cent for salaries, which is 10.5 per cent. Nhat is going to be the cost of heat, light, and maintenance for those plants next year? It is going to go up some. It is not going to stay zero. It is not going to go down. Let us say it goes up 1.5 per cent.

Now, everybody knows light bills alone have gone up more than that, the price of fuel oil has gone up more than that, but if the cost of operating and maintaining the plant only goes up by 1.5 per cent, we already agreed on 10.5 per cent, then there is 12 per cent. So how can the President of Treasury Board with a straight face say that those experts in the health care system are not telling the truth? Mr. Baker: No, I say you are not telling the truth. Mr. Rideout: I am only using their numbers Mr. Baker: Nell, you are using theni wrong. Mr. Rideout: Mr.

Chairman, the President of Treasury Board just voted yes for each of the numbers. And I gave him the benefit of the doubt on two of the larger ones, the salary bill and the cost of running the plant. I think it is going to be more than that. I have not mentioned the increased cost for supplies next year. Are jobs going to go dotun Mr. Baker: A point of order, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman: The hon. President of Treasury Board. Mr. Baker: I would suggest to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr.

Chairman, in terms of his use of numbers, if he were to simply say that there are 25,000 employees, each of them getting a salary increase of S per cent, we can add all those together and say that the costs are going to increase by 125,000 per cent next year. That is what he is doing, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: Order, please! There is no point of order. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Rideout) That is not even a good point of foolishness, Mr.Chairman, let alone a point of order. Do you know what I would say? I would say that is the kind of math the Minister of Finance used when making up the Budget.

Because it will be j u s t as much off base, have just as much validity, and be just as far out, Mr. Chairman. What Math is it anyhow? Is it Base 10, or base 2, or dd he introduce some new program since I gave up teaching? One day before this House closes this session, Mr. Chairman, the Premier, the Minister of Finance, the President of Treasury Board, is going to have to confirm that freeze means cuts and cuts mean layoffs. The House is going to be open as the hospital boards get their recommendations in, and the Government has to make budgetary decisions in the latter part of .

S L28 October 25, 1990 vol XLI No. 64 R28

. . October or N&jember. So the word has to go back to the boards. And don't you worry, when the word goes back to the boards the word will not be long coming back to our office. Don't you worry about that, Mr. Chairman. Before this session ends, sometime just before Christmas Eve or whenever, the Premier and the Minister of Finance are going to have to confirm what boards are now saying, that freeze means cut; they are going to have to confirm what we have been saying, that 12 per cent less money to spend on health means 1,200 jobs out of the system,, it means 300 or 400 beds out of the system.

They are going to have to confirm that the cut in education means several hundred less teachers next year. Those things will have to be confirmed, so the Ministers can enjoy their skating now. The Ministers will even be able to continue skating for perhaps the next month, but sometime in November, Mr. Chairman, the jig will be up, sometime in November the approvals for the cuts will go back to the hospital boards and back to the nursing homes, and then they will be back on the floor of this House. And, I suspect, we lAlIll still be debating this loan Bill when they come back here. Mr.

Chairman: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West. Mr.Tobin: Well, Mr. Chairman, I have a lot to say about the debate as the rest of my colleagues do, and as the evening progresses and the days progress and the weeks progress, we will have a lot to say on this piece of legislation which is before the House. Ms_Cowan: (Inaudible) recognized, or was it the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations? Who was recognized here? Will she stop interfering when I am trying to speak? I will not be shouted down by that Minister, Mr. Chairman. And not only that, she is not in her seat.

Anyway, there are some issues here I really want to get into. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Tobin: Yes I am. .1 have my notes, Mr. Chairman. The Minister of Employment and Labour Relations interrupted when I was standing up to speak and probably I should say to the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations that she should be working hard in her Department to try to do something with the unemployment level this Province has reached in the last year and a half, since she became Minister.

Statistics will show that from July 1989 to July 1990 there were approximately 11,000 less people in the work force in this Province. Is that a record of which this Minister is proud? That is what this Minister has presided over. Ms Cowan: (Inaudible). Mr. Chairman: Order, please! Mr. Tobin: That is what this Minister has presided over, the cut of 11,000 jobs in this Province. That is something of which to be proud. She mentioned this afternoon the Fisheries Response Program. We have never seen a Fisheries Response Program since she became the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. And furthermore, Mr.

Chairman - Mr. Tobin: Mr. Chairman, was I An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) L29 October 25, 1990 vol XLI No. 64 R29

I Mr. Tobin: No, she has not. No, she has not and the Minister - Ms Cowan: Yes she has The workers (inaudible) Mr. Tobin: You mentioned the Fisheries Response Program today. That is what we had when we were in Government and you abolished it. Furthermore, she has done absolutely nothing to stand in this House and support the people who are trying to get employment. Then she brought in the Employment Generation Program and what did she do?

She had it all approved, all the jobs were approved, their grants were approved before we had a chance to deal with it and before businesses in this Province had a chance to benefit from it. So I would suggest to the Minister that instead of trying to shout across this House when somebody else is speaking, and not from her own seat, she should go over and deal with the problems in her Department. Ms Cowan: (Inaudible) something to say (inaudible). Mr. Tobin: It looks like she wants me to continue talking about her Department and the lack of initiative.

Where was she when the students in university had to miss their classes because of a strike? You stood by and did absolutely nothing as Minister of Labour. Where are you now when schools are closed in this Province today. Today the schools are closed in this Province because of the action of the President of Treasury Board when he cancelled - An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Tobin: That is right. Because the President of Treasury Board will not honour an agreement between the student assistants. Where is the Minister of Labour when these students are home today?

Where is she when developmentally children are not in their classroom today? Where? Where? Where is the Minister of Labour when this Government makes a deal with the union and then will not honour it? That is what the Minister of Labour should get involved in. What is her position, Mr. Chairman, as it relates to the actions of the Minister of Social Services, the vicious attack on single mothers in this Province by the Department of Social Services? What is the position of this Minister? Mr. Chairman, as a former President of the NTA in this Province, what is her position on trying to strip the teachers pensions?

Where does she stand in these issues. Mr. Chairman, if she wants to continue to interrupt when I am speaking, I can tell her that I can list an awful lot of things she could be doing for the people of this Province, by whom she was elected And the President of Treasury Board is there, Mr. Chairman, with a big smirk on his face as he goes around - Mr. Efford: (Inaudible), Mr. Tobin: No, I will not sit down. And I might have more to say about the Minister of Social Services as the days go by. There is one thing I have to say about the Minister of Social Services.

Today, myself and my colleagues from Humber Valley and From Fogo I L30 October 25, 1990 Vol XLI No. 64 R30

I were going to lunch and we met a gentleman down in the basement, in the walkway. He was a man who has a problem with Social Services. Mr. Tobin: Well, what I see is true. An Hon. Member: Tell us where you saw it. S An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) a problem, too. Mr. Tobin: Yes, he has a problem with Social Services. And do you know what he did? He went to the Premier's office. Mr. R. Aylward: Go on! Mr. Tobin: Yes, to see if he dould see somebody. And, Mr. Chairman, like the Minister of Justice who put the policeman on the doors to keep the Member from Humber East out - Some Hon. Members: What? What? Mr.

Tobin: Like the Minister of Justice who put a policeman - and I still do not know if he was armed with a nightstick or not, but we will find out - what did the Premier's staff do? The Premier's staff ordered the man out of his office, because he wanted to talk about Social Services, and threatened to bring in security and have him fired out. An Hon. Member: Now. Mr. Tobin: That is what the Premier of this province does with poor people who have a problem. But I have to say oWe thing, Mr.

Chairman, and I will give credit where credit is due, he came here this afternoon and the Minister of Social Services did meet with him. And I commend him for that. But the Premier of this province, I was told by that gentleman that the staff of the Premier's office - Mr. Tobin: No, I can not get into that, can I, John? The staff, Mr Chairman - Mr. Simms: Probably under a rock, was it? Mr. Tobin: The staff of the Premier's office - Mr. Chairman, one thing I learned from my days as a social worker and my days here, and I think we all should practice it as politicians, as well, and that is to remember one thing.

That to the person who has the problem it is indeed a big problem or he would not come to us. And every politician should operate, Mr. Chairman, with that idea in mind. And for the Premier of this Province or his staff to threaten to have security remove that man, was like what the Minister of Justice did in having a police officer bar the member for Humber East from a meeting. Is that what we are coming to in this Province, policemen and security guards threatening everybody who wants a meeting, or wants to enter a meeting? An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) a meeting you weren't invited to? Mr. Tobin: What? Mr.

Hewlett: She wasn't allowed to a meeting she was iqvited to. Mr. Tobin: Let me say to the Member for Bonavista South, you know the night I was elected, in 1979 - An Hon. Member: That is not true. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! ) 1-31 October 25, 1990 vol XLI No. 64 R31

An Hon. Member: Nineteen eighty—two. Mr. Tobin: Eighty—two. In 1979 I was elected to council. An Hon. Member: Eighty—flue. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) one beer. Mr. Tobin: No, Mr. Chairman. If he did, he bought it. There was nothing free with us. I can tell you one thing, that the Member knows there were people who came into our function from other parties, who worked on other campaigns. The Member for Bonavista South, I believe, was looking after the door for us that night and extended a warm welcome to all of them. So the Member for Bonavista South knows full well, Mr.

Chairman, that I practice an open door policy no matter who wants to come in, even when he was working as part of my campaign team. Now, let us go further. Mr. Efford: Don't tell me anything else. Mr. Tobin: Mr. Chairman, I have no intention of telling the hon. Minister anything else. He is a hard man to penetrate. That head, Mr. Chairman, is not going to be penetrated very easily, so I air not going to tell him anything, I will be kind to the hon. gentleman. But that is what is happening in this Province, security guards wherever you turn.

And for the Minister of Justice to tell the Mayor of Corner Brook that he would not go to the meeting if the Member for Humber East was there is, to me, despicable conduct. And I do not ,think that any Member who sits - An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Tobin: Mr. Chairman, is that Parliamentary? A Member, Mr. Chairman, of this Legislature who occupies the position of Minister of Justice should not be doing things like that.

And if the present Minister of Justice continues the way he has, continues giving misinformation to this House, as he did on the single mothers' issue, as he did on the situation in Corner Brook, then the Premier should immediately remove him and put t h e Member for Bonavista South in as Minister of Justice. And I can tell you right now, from my experience with the Member for Bonavista South, that he will be fairer, Mr. Chairman, make no mistake about that. The Member for Bonavista South spent too long living in Marystown to be anything but fair. Mr.

Chairman, maybe sometime we might get the Minister of Social Services to live on the Burin Peninsula. Now I can assure you that it would take more than one decade to educate him in fairness, but if he were there long enough, he would probably be able to come to terms with fairness, as my colleague from Bonavista South has. And there are other issues, Today, Mr. Chairman, there are children in the proximity of this city who are home from school because of a labour dispute that is taking place.

And there is no need whatsoever, for that dispute to be taking place except for the cuts in the budget of the Department of Education last year. And I do not think the Minister of Education is solely responsible for that, nor would I blame him for being solely responsible that. L32 October 25, 1990 Vol XLI No. 64 R32

. An Hon. Member: For what? And he is part of the Government's mismanagement package we see in Mr. Tobin: For the cuts in your front of us every day. And for budget last year as it relates to the Minister of Health, yesterday the student assistants programme. one of the nurses said, How come we are living in the poorest But the •President of Treasury province in Canada yet we have the Board, the man who makes out he is highest paid Premier?

Nell, if a socialist in this province, the you wanted to see a man trying to nan who ran twice, ran here and squirm around circles, Mr. could not get elected then ran in Chairman. Ontario and could not get elected for the NDP, if he was still in Mr. Simms: Yes, Sir. I must say, Ontario, Mr. Chairman, I wonder he was a bit (inaudible). what would have happened to him. Out I can tell you, with his Mr. Tobin: I tell you, if you attitude on cutbacks, he wouldn't ever wanted to see a Minister of be President of Treasury Board in Health taken off guard. And the a Bob Rae regime. No, he could nurses were right.

How can we as only survive in a strong the poorest province in Canada Conservative mentality. have the highest paid Premier? Why? Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Murphy: (Inaudible). Mr. Tobin: Mr. Chairman, I do not know who sent this note over, but I can assure whoever it is I could not care less. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) your friends, through. Mr. Tobin: They are my friends, there is no doubt about that.

There are other issues facing this Government as it relates to the financial mess they have put us in, The Minister of Health is going to have to stand in this House one of these days and explain to myself and my colleague from Grand Bank why there are going to be a significant number of layoffs in the new regional hospital; why the Blue Crest Senior Citizens Home in Grand Bank is going to have a significant number of layoffs; and why there will be in excess of $1 million less going into the health care system next year on the Burin Peninsula than there is this year. Mr.Tobin: Now, I can tell the Member for St.

John's South that when the present Premier was Leader of the Opposition, he was the highest paid politician in Canada, As Leader of the Opposition, he was higher. paid than the Prime Minister of Canada, when he was raking $50,000 from some secret trust or whatever it was. I do not know, But we all found out he was getting $50,000. How can the Premier of this Province today - and it happened yesterday and I saw it - have a chauffeur—driven car when he is getting $8,000 - An Hon. Member: What? Mr. Tobin: What? I will tell you what. Mr. Hewlett: And a brand—new Ford Taurus on top of that. Mr.

Tobin: When he is getting 1-33 October 25. 1990 vol XLI No. 64 R33

$8,000 - Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Tobin: The Premier has a chauffeur—driven car. He has a man who gets out, with his uniform on and a cap, and opens the door and lets the Premier in, and lets his two assistants get in the back. An Hon. Member: Go away. Mr. Tobin: Mr. Chairman, I do not know if the Member for Carbonear is intentionally misleading the House or not, but the Premier of this province is chauffeur—driven almost every time he moves down there, unless he is going home or coming to work.

In fact, there is a gray Oldsmobile sedan, a great big spanking new Oldsmobile, pulls up in front of the door - An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Tobin: - yes, right. No, this is the other one - pulls up in front of the door, and the gentleman gets out. Now, Mr. Chairman, that is a fact. An Hon. Member: If that is not a chauffeur, what is it? am not saying it is wrong, probably it is all right, I do not know. But the fact of the matter is, if he i,s chauffeur— driven in a limousine say he is, never, mind saying he is not. And that is happening day in and day out in front of this building.

And I will tell you something else. You cannot close hospital beds and throw the sick and the suffering on the street and provide a car allowance to the Premier and another three or four cars to his office. And do not say there aren't, because we can list them. The Grey Oldsmobile, where is that? Where is the Grey Oldsmobile? Mr. Murphy: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: Order, please! Order, please! The hon. the Member for St. John's South, I remind him he is not in his seat and he cannot rise on point of order. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Tobin: If that is not a chauffeur, what is it?

A gentleman with a uniform on gets out - An Hon. Member: And opens the door for him. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Tobin: I will tell you, if the Member for Carbonear is embarrassed by it, he should tell the Premier, Because the people of this Province are going to know and the people of this Province should know, that the Premier - I Mr. Chairman: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West. Mr. Tobin: Yes, Mr. Chairman, you have to be in your seat. And I will tell you something' else, I don't think hon. colleagues should laugh at my colleague from St. John's South. He is a new member.

He did not come in here with a very big majority, and we should understand that he is still learning the rules. Mr. Murphy: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. L34 October 25, 1990 Vol XLI No. 64 R34•

[I] . C Mr. S.p!jj2r: The hon. the Member for5t. John's South, on a point of order. Mr. Murphi: Mr. Chairman, the hon. Member for Burin - Placentia West has made a categorical statement here, that the Premier is driven in a chauffeur-driven car. Now if the member has something to substantiate that, then he should table that in this House so that all members are aware of it. If not, he should not make that accusation, because he does not know it to be true. Mr. Hewlett: To the point of order, Mr. Chairman. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Chairman: Order, please! Order, pleasel The hon. the Member for Green Bay Mr.

Hewlett: To the point of order, I have myself seen the new blue car parked in the parking lot and the Premier enter a chauffeur-driven car - two witnesses. - Mr. Chairman: Order, please! Order, please! An Hon. Member: It is blue now is it not? Mr. Hewlett: (Inaudible) car allowance (inaudible) Mr. Chairman: Order, please! The Chair is ready to rule on the point of order. There is no point of order, it is just a matter of a difference of opinion between hon. members . There is no point of order. The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West. Mr. Tobin: The Member for St.

John's South has confirmed what I believed all along and that is that the caucus were not aware that the Premier was using a chauffeur-driven Oldsmobile. And I have seen it. I sauj it yesterday morning at nine-thirty out in front of the building. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Chairman: Order, please! An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) left hand or your right hand (inaudible) Mr. Chairman: Order, please! Order, please! Mr. Tobin: Now it is corning out. Mr. Chairman: Order, please! Mr. Hewlett: Oh, you are sensitive now! Mr. Tobin: That is a sore point. And I hope the media picks up on it, wherever they may be.

I hope they will pick up on it, that the Member for St. John's South is upset with the Premier. Because if he was not upset, he would not react in that way. Mr. Murphy: (Inaudible). Mr. Tobin: You should not react in that way if you are not upset. Mr. Murphy: (Inaudible) don't know what you are talking about. Mr. Tobin: Mr. Chairman, do you hear the way he is interrupting? Mr. Tobin: Ask the Deputy Premier or the President of Treasury Board to deny that the Premier is L35 October 25, 1990 vol XLI No. 64 R35

. mean, the Member for Carbonear does not know either. I do not know if he is full—time or not. I know he wears a uniform. brought here with a chauffeur in a Grey Oldsmobile. Ask the Deputy Premier to deny it. Ask anyone to deny it? An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) Mr. Tobin: Oldsmobile. What is the Minister of Justice saying now? An Hon. Membr: Whatever he is saying, it is difficult to listen. An Hon. Member: He wants to know how (inaudible) Mr. Tobin: No, that is not what you said. Mr. Chairman, I can tell you that that is a very sensitive issue.

And looking at the reaction I got today, it looks like an issue that we as an Opposition should tackle. As an Opposition we should put that issue up front. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oH Mr. Tobin: As an Opposition I think we should put that issue up front and let the Premier deny that he has a chauffeur, Mr. Chairman. Let the Premier deny that. If the Premier for St. John's South is not chauffeur—driven - Mr.MurphjL: The Premier for St John's South? Mr.Tobin: The Member for St. John's South, what is he prepared to do if the Premier ack nowledges he is chauffeured?

What are you prepared to do after what you just said in this Assembly? An Hon. Member: Resign. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Tobin: He is an employee, I suppose. He is an employee. I Mr. Simms: The Minister of Public Works will probably be - Mr. Tobin: Yes, the Minister of Public Works could probably tell us. Mr. Simms: (Inaudible) the arrangements Mr. Tobin: I just might. I just might, because I have seen it. As a matter of fact, I can tell you more than that if you want me to, at the right time, Because I even checked.

I can tell you that the first time it came to my attention was the time you opened up a building in on Kenmount Road somewhere. I mean, don't think that we are in the Opposition doing nothing, because I can tell you fellows that everything we are doing, Mr. Chairman, is strategically timed. And the issue of the Premier being chauffeur—driven in this City will be brought out at t h e right a n d appropriate time. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Tobin: I do not want the evidence given away yet. But I can tell you, if we have to do that, we will do it. Now, Mr.

Chairman, there are other issues, They can close down hospital beds, they can have the mentally handicapped children out of school, they can have the educational system in this Province in a mess, they can do all of that, but yet they can have the Premier of this Province with a chauffeur in an Oldsmobile car, over and above the one he bought r . L36 October 25, 1990 Vol XLI No. 64 R36

. with his $8,000, I would suspect. And I can tell you right now, that is not good enough. That is not good enough. Mr. Murphy: No, he should have a stretch limousine. Mr. Tobin: Mr. Chairman, there is one stretch limousine here. An Hon. Member: Are you talking about Bugdens? Mr. Tobin: Yes. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Tobin: No, I have to get on with a whole pile of issues. Mr. Chairman; let us talk about the problems in this Province today in the area of fisheries. Yesterday, my colleague and friend from Eagle River presented a resolution to this House.

I know he spoke very eloquently on the fishery, and he is a very sincere individual. I would suspect he has a fair amount of knowledge on the fishery issues in this Province, particularly in Labrador. I will give him full marks for that. But I do not think there is anybody in this House with more knowledge in the fishing industry than my colleagues, the Member from Grand Bank, the Leader of the Opposition, who was Minister of Fisheries, and our present Minister of Fisheries, all of whom in the debate. They all spoke in the debate, as well as my friend and colleague from Torngat Mountains .

I think everyone in this House, particularly the Member for St. John's South who tried to speak, and from what limited knowledge you would expect him to have on the fisheries, I think he did a good job. But L37 October 25, 1990 Vol XLI putting all that aside, we all have a lot to learn as it relates to what is taking place in the fishery. Now, Mr. Chairman, the Member for LaPoile has stood in this House and not asked the question as it relates to his fish plant in Port aux Basques not being opened. He worked very hard to get the attention of the media, but I would suggest to him that that was cheap publicity.

He should be asking questions about the livelihood of the people he represents, but not once did he stand in this Assembly and ask a question as it relates to the fisheries problems in his district and the fish plant now closed. So, I suggest, Sir, that you start looking after your constituents, as well. Everybody is free to say what they want to say in this House, provided it is within the orders and the approval of the Speaker, and you have to be right to make what suggestions you wish. I respect you for that but I can tell you one thing, you should look after your constituents Ms Cowan: He does.

He is an excellent (inaudible) Mr. Tobin: Now, Mr. Chairman, she is interrupting again. Some •Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Tobin: This bigger fish that is coming in Port aux Basques with no fish plant, is going to be devastating to the fishermen of that area. Over the years I have had the opportunity of knowing many of these fishermen, from Isle aux Morts, Burnt Island, Fox Roost, Margaree, and the whole coast. From the time I was a young boy growing up I got to know No. 64 R37 U

S these hardworking, dedicated, fishermen in this Province. They are some of the finest people you could ever meet; some of the finest people you could ever meet live on that Southwest Coast. The situation they are facing is difficult because it is their livelihood, and it is not good enough for this Government to be doing absolutely nothing. It is not good enough when the Minister of Fisheries has to go down to the Radisson Plaza to a Fisheries Conference and announce it looks like the fish plant may not open in Port aux Basques. That is not what these people want to hear. Mr.

Dumaresgue: What are you saying, about (inaudible)? Mr. Tobin: I was complimenting you, Sir, on the presentation you made yesterday as it related to your resolution. The Winter fishery on the Southwest Coast has to be looked after, and it is not being done at this point in time. I feel. Mr. Chairman, for the men and women who depend on that fishery and the fish 'plant this Winter. It is going to be a hard time. I would like the Minister of Fisheries, when he gets up to speak in this debate, Mr.

Chairman, to tell me whether or not there is any truth or substance to what has been circulated in Marystown, which is that the fish plant in that town may go down now until June. would the Minister of Fisheries be prepared to answer that when he speaks in the debate? I would appreciate it, because that is devastating. The Marystown Shipyard is at a very, very low peak. There is nobody working in the Marystown Shipyard now compared to what they were four years ago. Compared to four years ago, it is now a very, very, quite place.

Then you have the secondary processing plant in Burin that is not doing nearly as good as it was supposed to do, or has been doing. Mr. Efford: (Inaudible). Mr. Tobin: I can say to my colleague, the Minister of Social Servcies, that I will not say what he just asked me to say. Mr. Murphy: Fifty—one thousand (inaudible) * Mr. Tobin: Now, Mr. Chairman, the Member for St. Johns South - I want to talk about the problems in my district under this Bill, the problems with the fish plant and the problems with the shipyard.

He stood in this House last year and never opened his mouth when they were closing the plant on the Southside, but 'don't expect me to do the same. If it were not for the Member for Kilbride and the Member for Grand Bank there would not be an issue raised. You didn't speak on the plant on the Southside, so don't try to stop me from speaking about the problems in my district. There is a very serious problem on the Burin Peninsula. Mr. Chairman: Order, please! I wonder if the hon. member would just take his seat for a minute until I inform the House of the questions for the Late Show?

It is now four o'clock and I will inform members of the questions for the Late Show. 'Please be advised that I am not satisfied with the answer to my question on student assistants by the Minister of Education and I would like it place on the Late Show. ' That is S S L38 October 25, 1990 vol XLI No. 64 R38

. the hon. the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes. 'I am dissatisfied with the answer to my question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs re the cuts of pay to fir fighters.' The hon. the Member for Grand Falls. 'Please be advised that I am not satisfied with the answer to the question re UI benefits by the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations.' That is the hon. the Member for St. Marys - The Capes. The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia Nest. The hon. member has two minutes left. Mr. Tobin: I was talking about the problems in my district, and the Minist&r of Social Services should know it.

I will give you an example of what has happened. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Tobin: I do not know what he is talking about, Mr. Chairman, unless he is talking about the christening the Minister of Transportation had up there when he christened the ferry. Or maybe he is talking about the do they had up there from three ridings, Grand Bank, Fortune - Hermitage, and Burin - Placentia West, which worked out to less than seventy couples per district. Unless he is talking about that, Mr. Chairman. If that is the big thing.

As a matter of fact, I know people who were given tickets and would not even go to the dinner, they played darts instead. I know a fellow who had a ticket but would not go to the dinner, Mr. Chairman, he played darts instead and came to visit his brother after. But that is something, Mr. Chairman, that we will deal with at a later time. I can tell you one thing, there are problems in my district like never before, unemployment, people gone to the Mainland who have never gone before. They were in my own district, in my own neighbourhood as a matter of fact.

Some of my good friends have moved away to the Mainland, and their families are home while they go away to try to make a living, and that is very serious. They are people, Mr. Chairman, who have worked in Marystown for years and absolutely nothing has been done to the system. That is serious. And if the fish plant in Marystown goes down as they are saying it is going to, until the June 30, for six months, I can guarantee you that that is going to be disastrous. Because if it was not for the Federal Government work, on one ferry they had this year, she would have been a destitute place to live.

And I can tell you, boy, it is hard stuff to see people who have worked all their lives having to pack their bags and move away all because, Mr. Chairman, of the economic policies of this Government or lack of them. This Government took a shrimp trawler that was supposed to be built in Marystown and shifted it to Norway because the conservative (inaudible) that Premier. That is what happened to this Province. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear Mr.Tobin: When you see that this government's economic policy is to create jobs in Norway and not, Mr. Chairman, in Marystown, Newfoundland, that is wrong.

When you look at this government's policy as it relates to the Hibernia development, to leave out the Argentia area, that is wrong. The Argentia area should not be 1-39 October 25, 1990 Vol XLI No. 64 R39

S forgotten about. As a matter of fact, I can tell you something else. The action of this government, leaving Argentia out of the Hibernia development, is the major issue in the election in Dunville Mr. Chairman: Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. Mr.Tobin: I will get back to it, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: The hon. the Member for Green Bay. Mr. Hewlett: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to have a few words, if I might, please, on this - particular piece of subject matter. When I was very young, Mr. Chairman, when Mr.

Smallwood was Premier of the Province, I was a student back in those days and I can remember he was a great orator and he used to go on at great length about the great Liberal Party and the tremendous advances it had given the Province, especially in the areas of health and education. And he went out of his way on nearly every possible opportunity to identify the Liberal Party of this Province with a progressive social policy in these areas. Today, Mr.

Chairman, we have a party in Government that carries the title 'Liberal' but from its behaviour since it has come to power it is obvious that the Government is anything but liberal in any known sense of the word. Mr. Chairman, in terms of our education system, the current Government is going to bring about cuts which are going to see regular teachers being laid off. We have already seen instances of substitute teacher time being cut back and children being sent home from school.

We have the shortest school year in Canada, and now we are faced with kids having to come home from school if their teacher is sick because there are not enough substitute teachers. So, Mr. Chairman, this is the way this current Liberal Party is treating the legacy of Mr. Smallwood in the matter of education. Another matter that Mr. Smallwood in his day was very proud of were the strides in health care in this Province. When I was two weeks old, Mr.

Chairman, I was taken very seriously ill and had to be taken to hospital by dog team, passenger snowmobile and then, finally, automobile to get to Grand Falls Hospital, which was a company hospital, and then my father had to pay cash dollars to get me taken in and have my life saved. That was back in February of 1952. Since then, there have been strides in health care. The hospital opened in Sprinydale later on that year, in 1952 as a matter of fact, and unfortunately I had over the years a number of occasions to need to use that particular facility. That particular facility today, Mr. Chairman, is in hard times.

The last Budget brought down by the hon. Dr. Kitchen removed fifteen of twenty—five beds in that particular facility. The current proposed freeze under this Administration is going to have similar effects. The Administrations of the various health care boards around this Province were asked to prepare impact statements as to the outcome of a freeze next year in the health care system. The S S L40 October 25, 1990 Vol XLI No. 64 R40

. . impact statement that the Administration in Springdale will be sending in to the Government will indicate that a Further two beds at the Springdale hospital would be lost. Twenty—Four beds for the first time ever will be closed down in the senior citizens home, and approximately twenty people laid off to accommodate the approximately $600,000 to $700,000 impact of the freeze in that particular health care system in Green Bay. We have seen. Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Social Services cut payments to single mothers under the guise of fairness and balance.

This is a form of Eastern European Socialism, where, in order to make everybody equal, everybody is reduced to the lowest common denominator. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Hewlett: The Berlin wall has come down, Mr. Chairman, and the Wells wall is going up. I have written the Minister in the last few days with regard to a particular problem an individual had in my district. - We have a situation where the day the Minister of Social Services was sworn in, I saw him on the TV.

And just after being sworn in, a microphone was shoved in front of his face and he was asked what his priorities were and he said, I am going to have to help the widows. Well, Mr. Chairman, I have a case where a man in my district obtained a moose licence this year. Unfortunately, he passed away before he could use it. The particular situation is such, that the Wildlife Department will not allow a neighbour to shoot the moose for that particular widow.

So I have written the Minister of Social Services to intervene with his colleague, so that if he is truly interested in helping the widow, hopefully this particular widow will have moose meat this winter because one of her neighbours will be allowed to kill the moose on her behalf. Now, Mr. Chairman, this particular party, when in opposition, made a cause celebre about rising power rates; even power rates that had to rise by virtue of inflation, Were nonetheless blamed on the Peckford Administration.

Since coming to power, this particular Administration has removed the $40 billion subsidy to the Power Distribution District, a subsidy that has to be passed on to the people - Mr. Chairman: Order, please! Order, please! Mr. Hewlett: - of the Province who have higher power rates. Mr. Chairman: Order, please! I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member for Green Bay, but there is an awful lot of conversation going on to my left and I cannot hear the hon. the Member for Green Bay. The hon. the Member for Green Bay, Mr. Hewlett: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Minister of Social Services and his colleagues hate the truth when they hear it and they try to drown it out. But as the Bible teaches us, speak the truth and the truth shall make you whole. Mr. Chairman, they have also LId October 25, 1990 Vol XLI No. 64 R41

introduced the payroll tax on power. This is going to affect negatively the consumers in our Province. And to ensure that the Budgetary measures they put on the power utilities are carried through to the consumer, they restructured the Utilities Board so that it would be more a friend of the large companies and less a friend of the consumer. Not only were they not satisfied to bring about negative budgetary measures with regard to power rate increases, they restructured the Public Utilities Board so as to ensure that the consumers got it socked to them all the way, Mr. Chairman. This is the Liberal Government.

Mr, Smallwood, would be very much ashamed of you all. Because there is no liberalism in you anymore, you are ultra right wing conservatives. And to my former principal, the hon. the Minister from Gander, I would say the following: he has taken a nasty- habit of going around union leadership and writing individual members of unions. Now, Mr. Chairman, prior to my becoming an elected -politician I had the occasion to do public relations campaigns for my former employer, the Premier of the Province, and there were many times, Mr.

Chairman, when I was sorely tempted to go around union leaderships to explain government's position. But even though the Peckford Administration was often called right—wing by the labour movement at the time, Brian Peckford always prohibited me, -on every single occasion, from going around the union leadership and appealing directly to union members, because we were elected the Government and the leadership of the union was elected by their membership. I was never allowed, although at times sorely tempted, to appeal directly to the union membership.

S Ms Cowan: And you were never allowed to let a union leader speak to the Premier. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) don't you do that. Don't you (inaudible) me. - Mr. Hewlett: That is correct, Mr. Chairman. He was quite at liberty to call me what he wanted, but one thing I did know was his instruction, and his instruction was not to bypass, not to insult the union leadership of this province, but to deal with them and not go around them directly in any public relations campaign to the union membership, And I am sorry to say that my Grade IV principal is guilty of doing just that