ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXII No. 19A - 2:00 p.m., THU RSDAY, 10 MAY, 1984. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.A. (Pete) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Aobert (Bob) BLAKE, David A. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CAAAOLL, Q.C., Henry N. COAAIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJAADINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOEAN, Ausaell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, Jamea E. DAIEDGEA, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLEA, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOUALAY, D.M. (Doug) GAAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HAAAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elljah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYAA,Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYEA, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MEACIEA, Q.C., G.WJ. (Gerry) NOADMAN, Aurik (Aic) OLESO N,Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard A. PAAASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNEA, Q.C., Hon. Aoland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHAOEDEA, Hon. Vie SCOTT, Don SHEAMAN, L.A. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STOAIE, Hon. Jerry T. UAUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfleld Thompson La Ver endrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon We st Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Vir den Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblln-Russell St. Norbert Asslniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Os borne River Height s Flin Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 10 May, 1984. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MS. M. PHILLIPS introduced Bill No. 7, The Central Trust Company Act, 1984; Loi de 19 84 sur la compagnie du Trust Central. INTRODUCTION OF GUEST S MR. SPEAKER: Before Oral Questions may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery.

We have 38 students and four adults of Grade 8 standing from the Major Pratt School. The visitors are under the direction of Mr. Fowler. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russell. There are 55 students of Grade 9 standing from the John Pritcha rd School, under the direction of Mr. Kroeker and Mr . Penn er. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for River East. On behalf of all of the mem bers, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS K-Cycle Engines MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Industry Trade and Tec hnology. I would ask him what kind of response he has, what kind of report he can give me and the House, as to the efforts combined by him and me to save the technology of K-Cycle Engines for Manitoba and not have it lost to this province? He must have an answer from some federal officials by now. At least I would hope he does. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

There was a reply just recently from the Federal Minister responsible indicating that he has passed on our concerns to the Federal Business Dev elopment Bank. Outside of that I'm not aware of any further developments with respect to the K-Cycle Engine. MR. L. SHERM AN: We ll, Mr. Speaker, can the Minister confirm or advise as to whether he has had recent 613 meetings with Mr. Haakon Kristiansen, one of the principals, of course, with Dr. Gordon Trick and Barry Mitchell of the Minister's own department with respect to the possibilities of a loan guarantee? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have not had any further meetings with the individuals named, since the last time I responded to a question from the honourable member which was I believe in excess of three weeks ago, was the last time I met with Mr. Kristiansen. In terms of any further developments at a staff level, I would have to take that as notice and find out if there's been any further discussions at a staff level with him. MR. L. SHERM AN: Mr . Speak er, a further supplement ary, just so that I understand the scenario.

Is the Minister saying that he still has not heard back from the Honoura ble David Smith, the Federal Minister of Small Business? Is that what the Minister is saying in his responses this afternoon? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, Mr. Speaker. I indicated in response to the earlier question that we did just recently receive response back from the Federal Min ister indicating that he has asked officials of the Federal Business Deve lopment Bank to meet with our officials to discuss this matter further. I would be pleased to provide him with further information in regard to that response. MR. L.

SHERMAN: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Because of the importance of the technical expertise developed through K-Cycle Engines and the importance of retaining that expertise and that technical capability for Manitoba, if at all possible, can this Minister pin the Federal Minister down to a time frame as to when officials of the two departments will be meeting to address this Important economic subject? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, as indicated, we will do whatever is possible within reasonable limits with respect to that development to try to maintain that technology here in the Province of Manitoba.

As I've indicated in the past, we are prepared to explore options with the individual involved with that technology. We are interested in looking at other alternatives, or other interested parties that may be willing to work on that technology here in the province. We are prepared to and have had discussions with federal officials and we will continue to do so, Mr. Speaker. Emerson, Town of - census MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Attorney-General and it relates to the Town of Emerson.

The question, as related to the population census figures that were taken by the

town and a billing of $41 ,000 for police services - which is substantial bill to the community - and the town having taken a consensus on their own, is the Attorney­ General prepared to accept the population census that the town has taken on their own? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: I thank the member for that question . For some time now our method of assisting towns, villages, municipalities, and policing includes as one of its criteria, towns and villages having populations under 750 will receive policing free.

In order to make that effective, we have used StatsCan data, but we're not wedded to that in the face of evidence to the contrary, and if in fact the town's population is below 750 that is what will guide us. I'm prepared and I'll consult with my colleague, the Minister of Municipal Affairs, but we'll take some initiative in meeting with town officials to see what methods can be arrived at that are satisfactory to ver ify the population, and indeed if the population is under 750, then it will be eligible for free policing, so we'll certainly take some action on it. Careerstart applications MR. A.

DRIEDGER: I thank the Attorney-General for the answer. I have a further question to the Minister responsible for Careerstart. I wonder if the Minister could indicate how many applications have been made under Careerstart and how many have been rejected, because I have many complaints that I'm receiving, Mr. Speak er, on people that have made applications and have been rejected. For example, in the Village of Grunthal there have been four different applications, only four within the community, from community organizations and all have been rejected .

I wonder if the Minister can indicate how many applications have been made and how many have been approved and rejected. MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Employment Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I will have to take the question as notice to get the precise number of applications received under Careerstart. I can advise the honourable member, however, that the program is more popular than ever before and we've virtually been overwhelmed with applications.

I anticipate us spending a larger amount of money this year than in previous years and hopefully creating more jobs than in previous years, but we have to live within fiscal constraints and there's a limit to how money we have and an effort has been to distribute the funds as equitabl y as possible. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Can the Minister indicate what the criteria is for applications under the additional $5 million that was funded into the Careerstart Program? HON. L. EVANS: Those criteria were the same as the criteria that we had for the initial allotment. 614 MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speak er, to the same Min ister.

In view of the additional funds that were allocated to the program, those people that have been rejected, can they reapply under the additional funding that has been made available to the Careerstart Program? HON. L. EVANS: I'm afraid that we have allocated all the funds that we have now available. Gross domestic product MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MS. M. PHILLIPS: Ye s, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Employment Services and Economic Security about the recent report from the Conference Board of Canada.

Is it true that the previous predictions for Manitoba's gross domestic product has been revised upward and where did those contributions come from? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Questions should be on subjects that are within the administrative compete�ce of the government. Perhaps the honourable member would wish to rephrase her question. The question was out of order, an answer to it would also be out of order. Payroll tax MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance.

The Minister of Finance has exempted businesses, agencies with payrolls under $50,000 and some graduation above that and there will be refunds coming to some of those people, but it's my understanding, Mr. Speaker, that the department has adopted the policy that they will not make the refunds until the end of the year. Would the Minister reconsider that decision and make the refunds as soon as the applications can be made and processed? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Speaker, we're dealing here with a relatively small amount of money. lt works out to, I believe, around $30 per employer on average that has been paid in, $30 or $35 per employ er. What we have to keep in mind is that if we were to follow that procedure, we would have a whole host of employers who are in that position where they're not really sure whether they're going to be over or under, and there'd be some money coming back, $30 coming back, to the employer and then at the end of the year the $30 flowing back. lt doesn't really make a grea t deal of sense to do that.

We're using the calendar year and we believe that will make things simpler. lt is not a large amount of money. lt would involve a fairly extensive amount of administration to go through the process now and at the end of the year again. There doesn't seem to be any logic in that.

Thursday, 10 May, 1984 We reviewed that before we made the decision as to how to proceed, and we must keep in mind as well that this is an unusual situation in that we are providing for a retroactive decrease in taxation, so at the end of the year people will be able to do their accounting and will be able to see exactly how much is owed by us to them or by them to us. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister consider an alternative then, and that would be paying interest on the refunds when they're made at the end of the year? HON. V.

SCH ROEDER: That's, I think, a reasonable request and something we will take under advisement. Jobs Fund - Dept. of Natural Resources MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Natural Resources. Last year, many departments of government were asked to transfer salary funds into the Jobs Fund. My question to the Minister of Natural Resources is, how many dollars were transferred out of his department into the Jobs Fund? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MA CKL ING: Mr.

Spe aker, I thank the honourable member for having given me notice during the course of my Estimates, and I indicated to him that I would take it as notice.

I also indicated that perhaps it would be better to deal with all of that under the Estimates of the Jobs Fund, but I have no objection to dealing with the question now. lt is true that during the course of negotiations with the Government Employees Association there was an agreement reached that the employees would forgive, turn back to the government, a substantial amount of money amounting to $9 million government-wide that otherwise they were entitled to in respect to agreements that had already been reached with government.

Within the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources, monies were provided in th e'83-84 Estimates that were passed by this House for those salaries of staff of the Department of Natural Resources. Our allocation, the sum that was determined within the department to be therefore available to the Jobs Fund from the Department of Natural Resources was $1, 097 ,200.00. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker , just so that I understand this correct ly, this is in addition that the MGEA contributed into the Jobs Fund, that the government transferred $1, 09 1 ,000 (sic) out of salary allocations within the department, or is that part of the $10 million? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I want to correct what I said. I think I indicated about $9 million. lt was between $10 and $1 1 million. I thought I made it quite clear , I'll try it again.

Of that $10 to $1 1 million, the allocation, the amount attributable to Natural Resources of Estimate money, including salaries that was appropriate to Natural Resources was $1 ,097,20 0.00. So of the $10 or $11 million, $1 ,097,000 was attributable to Natural Resources salaries. 615 Peguis Indian Reserve MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker , I direct a question to my friend, the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. Mr. Speaker , I awoke this morning to a CJOB radio news broadcast upon which a Director of Operations, Mr.

Clarence Daniels from the Peguis Indian Reserve, confirmed the question that I asked of the Minister yesterday in the House, that the Minister had indeed some time ago at a band council meeting advised the Peguis River Indian Band to burn down the bridge that they thought ought to be replaced. Can the Honourable Minister confirm for me as to whether or not he believes Mr. Daniels is telling the truth? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. That is surely an improper question for Oral Question period. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speak er, I change my question to the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. Was he telling the truth in the House yesterday? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. The purpose of question period is to solicit information respecting matters under the jurisdiction and administration of members of the Executive Council.

I draw, Sir, through you, to the attention of the Honourable Opposition House Leader Citation 362 In Beauchesne which reads in part: "lt is not good parliamentary practice to communicate written allegations to the House and then to ask Ministers either to confirm or deny them. lt is the Member's duty to ascertain the truth of any statement before he brings it to the attention of Parliament." Mr. Spe aker, unfortunately the member chose yesterday to ignore that citation, I would ask you, Sir, to ensure that he does not do so again. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Honourable First Minister. Mr.

Speaker, to the First Minister, statements have been made by what I believe to be responsible officials of the Peguis River Indian Band that have suggested in a public way that a Minister of the Crown, an MLA for the area, has given them advice to burn down public property. I would ask the First Minister whether he would not consider that serious enough to conduct an internal investigation as to whether or not that transpired . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. H. ENNS: . . . whether he's prepared to instruct some discipline . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please.

Thunday, 10 May, 1114 The Honourable Government House Leader on a point of order. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. If members can control themselves, perhaps we can hear the honourable member who has been recognized by the Chair. The Honourable Government House Leader on a point of order. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speake r, once again the member in his question brings allegations to the House asking a Minister, in this case the First Minister, to either confirm or deny them, and he clearly identifies in the

preamble to his question that he has not ascertained the truth of the statement that he has brought to the House. In fact, Sir, he brings something from broadcast media and from third parties and asks that it be confirmed in this House. Mr. Speaker, that clearly is a breach of our rules for debate. But more directly, Mr. Speaker, now in his specific question to the First Minister, I refer you to Citation 316 (

e) and (

f) which prohibit members in debate while speaking, it certainly applies to question period: imputing bad motives or motives different from those acknowledged to the member; or making personal charges against a mem ber. Mr. Speaker, the nature of the questions posed by the honourable mem ber bring allegations to this House which he cannot confirm to this House in making them, and certainly bring to the style and character of debate in this House a new low, of a type I hope honourable mem bers will not top. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Memb er for Lakeside to the same point. MR. H.

ENNS: Yes, on the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. 1 can't - and I'll check Hansard - recollect that I was making any charges. I was seeking information, information that came through to me legitimately from the public media sources and from people directly involved. Mr. Speaker, I wonder how much closer we would be to the truth of McKe nzie Seeds operations had my colleague, the Memb er for Turtle Mountain, not been able to ask similar questions some time ago in this Chamber. Mr. Speaker, my question is once again to the First Minister.

Will he be prepared to examire the situation and take any disciplinary actions if they're necessary? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I want to make it very very clear that the Minister was asked this very same question yesterday by the Honourable Member for Lakeside; that indeed I want to support the comments made by the House Leader. lt was abuse, the privilege of this House yesterday - was today. The Minister responded, very clearly yesterday and very honestly, no. 616 What does the Member for Lakeside want again, Mr.

Speaker? - for a further denial of the allegations that were made. If the Honourable Minister wants to carry this on, I would suggest that he leave this Chamber and repeat the charges outside this Chamber. Education funding MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Honourable Minister of Education. Mr.

Speaker , in reference to the Minister of Education who replied to my question on Tuesday regarding aid to private and parochial schools, she said, if the member opposite wants to talk about insults he might talk about what is insulting the people of Manitoba, members of the opposition who did nothing when they were in office, stand up in this House and ask for increased aid to private and parochial schools.

Can I ask the Honourable Minister if she won't apologize, at least acknowledge the fact that in 1977 when the Schreyer Government left office, private and parochial schools were gaining sc.me $477,0 00 in advances to their school system? Over the four years of the Lyon Government, that aid to private and parochial schools in this province escalated to a figure of some .29 million. Will the Minister either withdraw her statement or apologize or acknowledge those facts, Mr. Speaker? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please.

Matters of historical fact are not subject to questions at Oral Question time in the House. The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, then can I ask the First Minister or his Minister of Education if they are prepared today to search their souls once again and give us the facts of what kind of dollars this government is going to provide to private and parochial schools in this province in the year ahead? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the Member for Roblin­ Russell obviously wasn't in the House when the Minister of Education responded to this very same identical que5:ion a week ago, and the Honourable Minister of Edur �tion responded very very clearly at that time that that announcement would be made along with the other grants that are to be announced by the Minister of Education during Estimates. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A final question, to the First Minister. Can I ask the First Minister if he has already acknowledged the 412 petitioners from the Roblin area who are patronizing St. Vladimir's College?

Has he answered their letters? Has he answered their concerns? Has he phoned them,

Thursday, 10 May. 1984 and has he discussed any matter at all about their concern about the funding that school, an important school in this province, one of the great schools? Has he given them any indication at all to their request for what kind of dollars they can expect in the year ahead? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I thought that a few seconds ago, and I would rely upon your judgment, but only a few seconds ago I indicated the answer to the question, the answer to the petitions, would be delivered at the time that the Honourable Minister of Education deals with their Estimates in the House.

Legislative Library MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Cultural Affairs. Last week the First Minister assured this House that his gov ernment would do ever ything possible to maintain public access to the Legislativ e Library. Can the Minister of Cultural Affairs inform this House what implications this has for departmental policy regarding the provincial library? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I thank the member for his question.

I would like to point out that the government does not have any intentions of closing access to the Legislative Library to the public. As has been indicated, we wish to avoid duplication of services which are available elsewhere. In line with our government's priority of fiscal responsibili ty, we are exploring means within the overall current levels of funding for my department, which would enable the library to maintain its services. This exploration is under way through an examination of the library's current role services and operations.

I might point out that such reviews are ongoing activity within the department. Although, we'll not be closing services to the public, adjustments may be necessary in order to continue efficie nt operations and to avoid non-duplication of services that may be available elsewhere. In the course of this work I will ask officials of my department to liaise with users of the library system, with university libraries, and other libraries to look at ways we can all work efficiently and effectively together to avoid duplication of services between various libr aries in the province. I should also point out, Mr.

Speaker, that the Manitoba Legislative Library is one of a few that provides total access to the pu blic across Canada in terms of legislative libraries. Let me reiterate that our government will ensure that there is public access to our Legislative Libr ary. Tonn Report MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kirk field Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr.

Speak er, my que stion is to the Minister of Urban Affairs. 617 In light of the Tonn Report which has recommended that the expropriation be halted on north of Portage until the development corporation comes up with more specific proposals, does the province plan to go along with the Tonn recommendations? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . HON. M.B. DOLIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker , the province is studying the Tonn Report at this time and there are certainly suggestions contained within that report that are meritorious and deserve a considera tion.

We will be reporting to the public on our recommendations shortly, as soon as we have had the time to consider the report. lt was, as you know, only delivered this week and it's a lengthy report and deals with many aspects of the case. We will also be conferring with our colleagues who are also shareholders in the North Portage Dev elopment scheme. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Ye s, Mr. Speake r, in light of the Minister looking at the proposal and the fact that it is indicated that if the expropriations don't go ahead, what then happens to the signing of the tripartite agreement? MR.

SPEAKER: The question is hypothetical as posed, perhaps the honourable member would wish to rephrase her question. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Speaker, all indications are that the development may well not go ahead if the government chooses to go along with the report, and in light of the fact that the merchants have had their expectations raised by the hearings, and that the Minister called the hearings, why would the government go through this charade when there is the possility of having the expropriations turned down? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I don't believe that there is a substantial threat to the existence of the North Portage Development Corporation. I don't believe that in our considerations of the report from the inquiry officer that there is a suggestion that the core of Winnipeg just be allowed to exist and deteriorate as it is. That is not the situation.

There are recommendations that have been made in the report and all of those recommendations may be made to fit very nicely together and the property owners and the tenants that were allowed to appear before the enquiry officer may be very pleased with the result. lt will take consultation and there is a time allowed before th e consultation must result in a decision. That's been put in place for an obvious reason.

We will proceed as quickly as we can because we know that people are anxious to have an answer, but it takes time to appear before the enquiry officer, and then it takes time for the parties to determine the direction they will go having received the report. Legislative Library MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speak er, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Cultu ral Affairs following on the previous question.

Thur8day, 10 Mav, 1984 Is it not a fact that there is, in fact, little duplication between the Provincial Library and other libraries and that as much as two-thirds of the material available there is not available anywhere else? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ye s, as 1 indicated, there are materials that are in the Legislative Library that are not available elsewhere.

There are other materials that are available in just about every major library in the City of Winnipeg, and it's our intention to look at the overall operations of the Legislative Library to ensure that there is a non­ duplication of costly servic e' s, but on the other hand to provide that there is access to mem bers of the Legis lative Assembly who have first access and who are making use of the overall mandate and the first man date of the Leg islative Lib ra ry, and also to government branches and to the public. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, in that consideration is the Minister considering a slight reduction in the normal working hours of that library rather than a closure? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Spea ker, as I indicated, there is a review being undertaken of the operations of the library.

I would expect some time this summer to have recommendations from that review in terms of how to continue the operations of the Legislative Library and to ensure that it is efficient and is not dupl icating services where the y may be duplicated, and until such time as I receive that report, I can't look ahead with some magic crystal ball and know what recommendations may be given to me by staff. MR. R. DOERN: Mr .

Spea ker, since money is undoubtedly one of the main problems being confronted in the case of the Legislative Library, is the Minister going to curta il his practice of throwing around large grants, some as high as $50,000, to some of Manitoba's mult icultural community in an attempt to solicit support for the govern ment's policies? Is he going to curtail that practice and use some of that money to keep the Legislative Library open? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Spea ker. I'm rather shocked at the

preamble to that question to suggest that money that is provided to assist various ethno-cultural organizations in the province, which I might add, is usually a very small part of the overall efforts th at tho se broadly-b ased commu nity organizations raise for purposes to provide services, to provide buildings, to suggest that money is being thrown around, I think, is an insult to the various community organizations that exist in the province, Mr.

Spe aker, to help their broader communities to be part of this great country of Canada, this province, and to continue with some of their own cultural heritage in this country. Because I think that while we are a country made up of various peoples and we have a Canadian identity , what makes us strong as a country and as a province is the cultural mosaic that we have in this province. I think that government has a role to assist 618 those organizations in a small way, so any suggestion that that money is being ill-spent, I think is an insult to those community organizations, Mr.

Speaker, and is an insult to what all of us I think in the House - except maybe that member - endorse as government policy, that being the recognition of multiculturalism in this country. Grants - multicultural community MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would just like to ask the Minister how he can explain, in view of what he's saying, the fact that only a few months ago he held an assembly here in this building for several hund red people from Manito ba's mu lticultural communi ty, presented two extremely large cheques at that time and then treated everyone to a selling job on the government's French language proposals. I ask him whether he can explain the apparent attempt by him and his department to solicit or influence the multicultur al community through large grants? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question is of an argumentative nature.

Perhaps the honourable member would wish to rephrase his question to seek information, rather than explanation or an opinion. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speak er, I simply ask the Minister if he can explain how it is on one hand he is handing out large cheques to mem bers of the multicultural community, and at the same time making speeches in support of the government's French langua ge policy, whether that doesn't look as if he's trying to influe nce friends and win support? Ice storm - clean-up coats MR. SPEAKER: Order please. That is the same question.

The Honourable Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Government Services responsible for Emergency Measures. In view of the fact, Mr. Speake r, that he's committed the province to pay for personal losses, under the policy of the government to assist individuals in losses in the last storm, and in view of the fact that we, as members of the opposition, are continually getting reports of losses of livestock numbering up to seven head of cows and eight head of horses in individual's herds, Mr.

Spea ker , through suffocation of snow two weekends ago, will the government be paying compensation to those people who have had such tremendous losses? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Government Services. HON. A. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all I want to reject the Member for Arthur's

preamble when he said that I gave a commitment that we would be providing assistance for losses as a result of the recent storm. Mr. Speaker, I have, on numerous occasions, advised the honourable members that our

Thursday, 10 May, 1984 staff is now monitoring and attempting to find out the est im ates of dam ages th at have occurr ed from municipalities. So far we have had very few requests from private individuals. The municipalities have been advised to forward their estimates of damage and once we know the extent of the damage that has occurred, we will then be in a better position to assess if it's of such a magnitude that it can be declared a major disaster.

We know that Hydro has suffered substantial losses but we do not have all the information as yet, insofar as municipalities are concerned and insofar as private individual losses are concerned. The latest information I have from my staff is, as far as losses by private individuals, that it's not that exorbitant, but that still can be changed as time goes on and until such a time as we can assemble this information and analyse it, it's pretty difficult to give a commitment as the members are requesting. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker , in view of the fact that the Minister is saying he's trying to accumulate the information, will he consider applications from those farmers and those individuals who had livestock losses through suffocation and that type of loss? Will he consider and allow those applications to come forward for consideration, Mr. Speaker? HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, I think the normal procedure is for the indi viduals to contact their municipalities and advise them of the extent of their losses.

They have been invited - and I have said it on a number of occasions and I'm prepared to say it again and I'll be prepared to say it tomorrow again - that we're inviting all those individuals and municipalities to forward their claims and if they are of such a magnitude that it constitutes a major disaster, then they will be given serious considera tion, as they have in the past, in the usual man ner . MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, so that I'm clear on the record and can communicate with my constituents, would it be fair for me to ask the Minister of Government Services, would it be proper if my collea gues and I were to put out a press release saying to those farmers who had losses, contact the local municipalities, indicate your losses, and they will be forwarded to the Minister of Government Services, so that compensation can be considered? Is that a correct procedure? MR. SPEAKER: I don't think it is a proper question to ask the Minister whether the honourable member should release or not release any press release.

The Honourable Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker , I will ask the Minister of Government Services if he will dir ect the public as to how they apply for compensation due to the fact that they lost large losses of livestock in the recent storm? Will he be making a public statement, other than the bafflegab he's giving us in this Assembly? Will he do it publicly and set up a procedure so the public understands how to get compensation? HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, the assistance has been provided since 1950 in dis asters that have occurred, whether they be flood or drought or other disasters that have taken place since 1950, and that is 34 years ago. I'm sure that most municipalities are aware of the procedures that are followed. lt is impossible for our staff, the Emergency Measures Organization which is only a very small staff, to canvass every farm in Southern Manitoba to find out whether they had any disasters. Mr.

Speaker, surely one would expect if any individual has lost, as the Hon ourable Me mb er for Arthur indicates, seven or eight head of livestock as a result of a storm and can be attributed to that, surely they will come forward and say, look I've had a loss. Mr. Speaker, they should certainly come forward and we invite them to do so and we will take under consideration all those claims that come forward in the usual manner . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A.

ANSTETT: Ye s, Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order respe cting question period today, particularly questions asked by the Honourable Opposition House Leader. Mr. Speaker, during that series of questions, the Honourable Opposition House Leader displayed in his hand what appeared to be a cassette tape and since I know the Honourable Opposition House Leader would not improperly bring an exhibit into this House, I take it, Sir, it was a document in electronic form and would ask you, Sir, whether or not it is appropriate to ask him, in view of his refe rence to taping of a CJOB program this morning, . . .

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. A. ANSTETT: . . . if the honourable member is prepared to table the document which he displayed in this House, which I take it was not, Sir, an exhibit. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Lakeside to the same point. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Spea ker, on the same point. I also have my wallet with me, a package of cigarettes. Goodness gracious, how paranoid can people become! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Government House Leader to the same point. HON. A.

ANSTETT: Ye s, Mr. Speaker, our rules and practices in this House are very clear. Exhibits are not allowed. Therefore Mr. Speaker, we can only assume . that the object being waved by the member was a document in electronic form. 619

ThursdaJ, 10 MaJ, 198C Now, Sir, if the honourable member is telling the House he has no such document I withdraw my point of order. But, Mr. Speaker, if the honourable member was implying to this House that he had something on a cassette tape which he was waving in this House, I think it is fair under our rules, and under our practices which require members to table such documents, to ask the honourable member the character of the document if he has one, and to table that document.

If the honourable member says, Sir, he has no document other than his cigarettes and his wallet, and a blank cassette tape I withdraw any objection and withdraw the point of order. But, Sir, if he claims that he has a document that he waves in the House I think members have the right to ask to have that document tabled. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. If the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek has a point of order perhaps he would rise to his feet and speak. The Honourable Member for Lakeside to the same point of order. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, speaking to the same point of order I can only ask you, Sir, to peruse the Hansard of the earlier question period to see whether there is absolutely any case that the House Leader is making, whether 1 made any reference to any particular material, or exhibit, or whatever, Sir. I simply don't understand what the Government House Leader is up to. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General to the same point of order. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture to the same point of order. HON. B. URUSKI: Yes, Mr.

Speak er, yesterday the Honourable Member for Lakeside intimated during questions to me that there were tapes of a conversation that I had made, Sir. I went over after question period and asked the honourable member whether there were such kind of tapes, whethe r he had taped my conversation, or there were tapes alluding to the allegations that the honourable made in this House. He denied having any such tapes. Today, Sir, in this Assembly, in his hand he held a tape intimating and alluding as he was asking the question, and casting aspersions on myself, Sir, in terms of - (Interjection) - well, Mr.

Spea ker, I answered the questions that the honourable member posed as I recall them. Mr. Speaker, the honourable member raised the question of tapes yesterday. He held a tape In his hand which I saw. Mr. Speaker, I ask the member to put that tape on the table so that all honourable members can see what is in that tape. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General to the same point. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, to the same point. Members of the opposition appear to think that this is a matter of some levity.

I would simply point out that 620 it is a - (Interjectio n) - well, since they do n't understand levity, that it is a laughing matter. I would point our, Sir, that on several occasions in this country it has been held in contempt of court for someone to stand up and do exactly that type of thing, purport to have an exhibit and address the jury, in this case the media, and then upon being questioned by the judge it was clear that it had no such exhibit, and was attempting to mislead.

I'm saying what has been held in the halls of justice in this country, and with good sense, to carry out that kind of demonstration which it was obvious to all of us, and held up for the press to see. Then when being questioned about it by the House Leader to say, oh, I've got just a wallet, and a package of cigarettes, i.e. to say to the House in effect I deny I have such a tape, compounds the felony in my view. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside to the same point. MR. H.

ENNS: On the same point of order and to be of any further assistance to you as to whether or not there's any substance in the Honourable Government House Leader's request I certainly did allude to tapes. I provide yo u, Sir, and the House with further information, and all the information that I have, with respect to tapes, that a tape was confiscated by the RCMP from Radio Station CFRW that had to do with the matter under discussion. I had to do with an interview by the Director of Operations from the Peguis River Indian Band about the burning of the bridge, Mr. Speaker.

Now beyond that I made no further reference, made no further charges or use of the word tapes. Mr. Speaker, I ask you to peruse the Hansard of the earlier question period to see whether or not there is any substance to what the Honourable Attorney-General is talk ing about, or any substance to what the Honourable Government House Leader's talking about. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader to the same point. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Speak er.

On the grounds of the explanation of the Honourable Opposition House Leader that he has made no reference to tapes that he personally has in his possession and therefore the honourable member has no tapes that he is prepared to table in this House, I can only conclude, Sir, that the honourable member was, against our rules, using the tape as an exhibit and that he has no document from which he is quoting. Mr. Speake r, on that assumption - and I take the Hono urable Member for Lakeside at his word - I would ask, Mr.

Speaker, that in the future members desist from the use of exhibits in this Chamber unless they're prepared to table those documents. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Since the House seems prepared to drop the matter and is not asking for a ruling it's not intended to be one , merely an observation. The Honourable Government House Leader is quite correct in saying that we have a rule against exhibits in this House. However, the word "exhibits" is not entirely clear as

Thursday. 10 May, 1984 to whether it applies to cups of coffee, magazines, newspapers on occasions, reports, maps and other things. The honourable members might be - (Interje ction) - Order please. The material referred to has been called a letter in the form of a tape. Rule 29.1 ref erring to a letter says "Where in a debate a member quotes from a private letter, any other member may require the member who quoted from the letter to table the letter from which he quoted ." I heard no quotation from any letter, or a citation, or that it had been cited.

Citation 327 Sub (2) says "lt has been admitted that a document which has been cited ought to be laid upon the Table of the House, if it can be done without injury to the public interest. The same rule, however, cannot be held to apply to private letters or memoran da." Since nothing was cited from the alleged document, it would appear it is not necessary to table it. ORDERS OF THE DAY ORDER FOR RE TURN NO. 1 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to request an Order for Return as it appears on the Order Paper.

I'd like to move, seco nded by the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, that an Order of the House do issue for the return of the following information:

(1) All costs incurred in establishing the Manitoba Beef Commission, including salaries and expenses of Commissioners.

(2) All costs incurred in operating the Manitoba Beef Commission from the establishment date to March 31s t. 1984.

(3) The numb er of cattle marketed by the Manitoba Beef Commission from the estab lishment date to March 31s t, 1984.

(4) The method used by the Manitoba Beef Commission to establish the price of cattle sold by it, and the names of those who have purchased cattle from the Ma nitob a Beef Commis sion since the estab lishment of the Commission.

(5) The premiums paid by farmers to the Manitoba Beef Commission and the pay outs made by the Commission to contract holders. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Ye s, Mr. Speaker, we're prepared to supply the information requested in the Order , subject to the normal caveat to Item (4) with regard to confidentiality on third party transactions.

I understand from the Minister that he does not expect there will be any problem, however, providing the names, but that clearance of course should be obtained by the Minister before providing the names of people involved in commercial transactions. But I expect, Sir, and the Minister has assured me that there should be no problem getting that clearance, so I expect we'll be able to comply with the whole order, but subject to the caveat on the names in (4). 621 MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker, would you call the debate on the refe rral of the Rules Report to the Committee of the Whole House. please? MR. SPEAKE R: On the proposed motion of th e Honourable Mi nister of Mun icipal Affairs, the Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: May I have the indulgence of the House to let this matter stand, please? MR. SPEAKER: Stand? (Agreed) The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, could you please call the Adjourned Debate on second reading of Bill No. 2? ADJOU RNED DEBATE ON SECOND READING BILL NO. 2 - THE LOAN ACT, 1984 MR.

SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of th e Honourable Minis ter of Financ e, Bill No. 2, th e Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. Are you ready for the quest ion? The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I welcome the opportunity to make a few remarks on this Capital Supply bill. I would just like to take a few minutes to deal once again with a point that the members opposite seem to be making, and that is that they are attempting to blur the distinction that exists between money that's expended to cover operating costs and money that is expended to buy physical assets.

I would point out to the mem bers opposite that if they will look at the Budget from Saskatchewan and Al berta. th ey will see that the bottom line in Saskatchewan and Alberta doesn't make that distinction. In fact, I don't even see on this page of Consolidated Funds, Statement of Financing Activities in the Government of Saskatchewan, where they make any reference to capital at all. it's just simply excess of reve nue over expenditu res is the way they treat it.

Alberta refers to it in a similar way on the bottom line, but on another page of the Bud get Address they do show operating and capital, but then at the bottom they show budgetary deficit. They don't refer to it in any other termino logy, other than a budgetary deficit. lt happens to be $258 million, and their capital item is listed at $1 .707 billion, so under this Minister's measurements, of course, they would be very much in balance. Mr.

Speak er, I urge the members opposite not just to get too carried away with trying to make that distinction, because if they will look - and I urge this upon any of the other members of the government opposite who have the time to look at Public Accounts

Thuradliy, 10 Mer, 1884 for the year ending' 82-83 as an example, Page 4-49. They'll see the listing of capital items. If they go through that list, they will see that a great many of those items do not contribute anything to generating new revenue for the government. I stress once again that what is important to the government is that they have revenue generated to pay for the assets that they buy. If they're simply replacing cars or doing repairs in somebody's office, that doesn't add a thing to new revenue of the government.

If they're making a payment on the principal for something that's been expended on a hospital or a school, that doesn't add anything to new revenue because that hospital and that school have been there for some time, and any contribution they're making has already been taken into consideration. I urge the memb ers opposite to recog nize the seriousness of the fact that there is a $488 million going on $493 million deficit, and that they are not doing a service to the public by trying to minimize that.

Inde ed they are doing a disservice to the public by trying to make them believe that is not significant, that somehow that money :;pent on capital really doesn't matter all that much. Well, there is a difference. I acknowledge there's a difference, Mr. Speaker, but the bottom line is that they have to generate revenue. There are some capital expenditures, of course, that do that, and that is called self-sustaining. That is why we have this bill before us now; this is supposed to be money that is self-sustaining. If one looks at The Financial Admi nistration Act - I believe it's

Section 76 - it says that the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council may declare any provincial securities," in respect of which they list four items.

Then it says, ". . . under ordinary circumstances, do or does not ultimately constitute a charge on the revenue division to be self-sustaining debt for the purposes of this act." So The Financial Admin istration Act makes provision for capital purchases that will not reflect directly upon the day-to-day expenditures of the government. lt is money that is going to come back to the government as a consequence of the type of investment or use to which the money was put. lt may be money that goes into the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation. lt may be money that goes to MHR C or to some other use where there is a self-sustaining aspect, so there is a very clear distinction between capital that generates revenue and capital that is a cost on the day-to-da y operating expenditures of the government.

That's one issue, Mr. Speaker. The other is that it appears from what this House has been told by the Minister, who is the Acting Minister for the Jobs Fund, the Minister of Small Business Development and Tourism, that within the money before us there is indeed capital which will be a charge upon the day-to-day operations of government, and if that is so, then I say that's a violation of the act. Now the Minister of Finance is indicating that's not so. I hope when he closes de bate then, that he will assure us that indeed all of the money we are being asked to vote for here, qualifies under

Section 76 of The Financial Administration Act because, Mr. Speaker, if it doesn 't qualify under Sect ion 76, I could not vote for that, because I will not vote for a violation of The Financial Administration Act. So when the Minister of Finance has the opportunity to close debate, then I hope he will be able to stand and give us that assurance that it indeed conforms to The Financial Administration Act. MA. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for La Verendrye. MA. A. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by thtt Member for Morris, that deb ate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MA.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I would like to, first of all, advise the House before moving into Supply that I understand there is a disposition on the part of mem bers on both sides to di spense with Private Members' Hour today and would ask then that you, Sir, as part of the motion which I'll move by leave, agree that the House will sit in Committee of Supply through Private Members' Hour tod ay. I would therefore, Mr. Speaker, move, by leave, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty and tnat the Commitee of Supply sit through Private Members' Hour tod ay. 622 MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood on a point of order. MA. A. DOEAN: Mr.

Speaker, I want to make this point in general before granting leave, that I know it is not a requirement of the House to inform or consult with the two Independents in the House, but I want to say to the House Leader I think that he should, as a courtesy, Inform and on occasion, consult with members who are not members of one of the two major political parties, because if he is going to ask for our co­ operation, then it's a two-way street.

I'm not asking him to hold negotiations with his counterpart in the Conservative Party and then come and negotiate with the Member for Brandon West and myself, but I'm saying the least he can do on occasion is to Inform us, on occasion it might be advisable to consult or discuss with us, because if he chooses to do neither, then I assure him that as a matter of formality, we will deny leave when it Is requested. MA.

SPEAKER: On the understanding that the House will dispense with Private Members' Hour this afternoon and will reconvene this evening at 8:00 p.m. in Estimates Committee, it is moved by the Honourable Government House Leader and seconded by the Honourable Minister of E· ,lployment Services that the House do now adjourn. Is that agreed? The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: On a point of order, I did not move that the House adjourn, but rather that the House go into Committee of Supply and that we sit through Private Members' Hour in Committee of Supp ly. Mr.

Speak er, I would prefer to avoid moving adjournment of the House at this time. I believe that the House can appropriately adjourn at the conclusion

Thursday, 10 May, 1984 of Supply this evening and that because of the difficulty we ran into two years ago, Sir, when we first decided to try to move into Committee of Supply, not having passed a Supply motion, and then adjourn the House, we ran into a proced ural difficulty. Mr.

Speak er, you will recall that matter was raised at that time as a point of order by the Honourable Member for Charleswood and since that time we have avoided adjourning the House prior to going into Committee of Supply, the mechanism whereby we adjourn the House, Sir, while the House is in Committee of Supply is to adjourn at the end of Private Members' Hour, when the House is actually sitting during an interruption in the Committee of Supply. I'm not sure of the mechanics, Sir, to adjourn the House and then move into committee.

I think the House has to move into comm ittee and can only then, during an interruption, adjourn. So if we suspend Private Members' Hour, I suggest, Sir, the committee continues and the House must adjourn at the conclusion of committee when the comm ittee rises to report. Until we resolve tha t procedural problem and the mechanics of it, I have to abide by the suggestion made by the Member for Ch arleswood some two years ago, when we last proceeded in this fashion without Private Mem bers' Hour, that adjourning and then moving into committee is improper. MR.

SPEAKER: In that case, will the honourable member then move that the Speaker now leave the Chair and the House move into Committee? The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speak er, I will repeat the motion as I thought I had moved it. I would move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Employment Services, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty and that Committee of Supply shall sit during Private Mem bers' Hour.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Su pply to be gr anted to Her Majesty with th e Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Depar tment of Highways. CONCURREN T COMMI TTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: In this

section of the Committee of Supply, we'll be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Tra nsportation. We shall be given a statement from the Honourable Minister who is responsible for this department. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like first of all to express my gratitude to our staff who have done an excellent job over the last number of months in putting together the Estima tes for the 623 department. I think the final results of the Estimates reflect and are consistent with the overall government initiatives and objectives.

We 've looked long and hard at all our expenditu res and service deliv ery, keeping in mind that we did not want to see layoffs or decrease service, but to be frugal with our increases and to accomplish greater efficiencies in our operations and effect staff reductions through attrition and redeployment where necessary. This year our overall budget is down $1 million, however our Construction Program is up.

We have accomplished this by having some of the services we deliver cost-shared by another sector of government which directly benefits from them, such as the Driver Education Program where the costs will be substantially funded by M PlC. In addition, the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation will be required to absorb a greater share of the admin istrative costs which are currently shared by the Motor Vehicle Branch and the MPIC. Jobs have been protec ted, services have been protected, expenditures are down. That is the reality of my department's Estimates.

I want to highlight a few of the major initiatives under the Estimates this year. First of all in terms of the auditor function, my department has created an internal audit sect ion which will be responsible for conducting comprehensive audits of the various functions of the department.

This activity will be limited to financial and compliance credits and will be expanded to include, among other reviews, the need for improved procedures and policy definition. lt will also include the identification of cost savings through automation and systems applications and generally recommend ways in which the service delivery units can become more cost-efficient and effect ive. In the area of Computer Systems, our Computer Program activities will be expanded in a number of areas. One such application with a high priority is our equipment inventor y management.

Presently there are approximately 3,000 pieces of operating equipment that are monitored manually and with obvious inefficiencies involving substantial staff resources and paper flow th at this enta ils. In addit ion, our Warehousing Automation Program will be continued and expanded and a Construction Program monitoring system will be explored, all of this to improve efficiencies in the department. In the Air Services Division, a Fleet Rationalization Program is being undertaken. lt is currently under way to determine optimum fleet size and makeup, as well as operations services and del ivery effect iveness.

As well we are now doing maintenance at the We stern Canadian Aviation Mus eum where we rent space for our water bombers and of course we all know that the fleet will be expa nding. This will save substantial dollars, approximately $1 75,000 per year, because we will no longer have to go to Montreal to the Canadair Shop for inspections and repairs there, so we would save $1 75,000 on that aspect alone.

In the Transportation Division, in addition to its normal activities in the transportation policy and rese arch areas, the Transportation Division will be responsible for the two transportation sub-agreements signed rece ntly with the Federal Govern ment; one dealing with the Port of Churchill, the other dealing with long -term transportation planning and research in Manitoba, as

Thuradey. 10 May. 1114 well as participating in the urban bus devel opment sub­ agreement that is yet to be finalized. In the area of hand icapped transportation, we are continuing with our Rural Transportation Program serving disabled and senior people in rural Manitoba. We are serving at this time approximately 20 percent of the rural population and there's been a major expansion of that this year, approxima tely 60 percent increase, reflects our priorities in that area for transportation for hand icapped and elderly in rural Manitoba.

In the Capital area of our budget, our construction program was increased this year by almost $3 million. Last year, we increased our pre-advertising program in the fall from $18 million to just over $30 million, and we will maintain that approximate amount again this year giving the construction indus try an opportunity to plan their activities better and the resources that they will require giving them opportunity to plan in advance of the actual construction seaso n. This move has been done in conjunction with the industry and has received their enthusiastic endor sement.

In our Capital Program, we have a new appropriation this year that will begin to address the problems associated with access to remote communities to better serve rural, particularly Northern Manitoba. I should mention that covering all of the areas of construction, the total funds that were available in 1980 for covering the cons truc tion budget, aids to unorganized territor y, we have some construction in the Jobs Fund and then also access to remote communities. Those are two new areas that came in this year and the Jobs Fund allocation last year.

Our total spent in the construction area in 19 80-8 1 was $9 1.5 million; in'81- 82, the total funds available was 101 .2;'82-83, it was 105. 1 ;'83-84, it was 99.4; and in'84- 85, it's 101.1. We're just slightly up from last year on the overall construction budget.

In our safety theme, our highway safety legislation has been implemented, of course, seat belts, child rest raints and helmets with some continuing some minor amendments to that legislation as we go, and as we see it in practice, we are going to spend a great deal of effort in the area of drinking and driving, a campaign against drinking and driving, tightening up the legislation and the enforcement, as well as providing information and educational programs to the public.

We have implemented a reduced speed limit in the construction zones to 60 kilome tres an hour for safety purposes for both motorists and workers. We are increasing from three to four the number of vehicle insp ection units on our highw ays, enabling us to maintain safer vehicles on our highways, all consistent with our safety theme. We are aware, as the opposition is, that this was reduced last year. lt has been placed back to the same level that it was.

In the area of pedestrian corridors, we want to develop legislation under The Highway Traffic Act defining further the responsi bilities of motorists and pedest rians with regard to pedestrian corridors, as well as regulations governing the physical design of corridors and the hardware to enhance their visual target value to the motorists. We are also working on

an act to cover all-terrain vehicles. In other policy areas, we are providing for regulation of the privately-operated commercial Handivans under the Taxicab Board, which will take place this year. Shortly as well, I will have a review or I will be able to review a report from the Task Force on Motor Ve hicle Regulations. I intend at that point to consult with the industry on the recommendations. We are working in the department on rationalizing the secondary road system into two tiers and standards r-:.-lated to both of these that would make our dollars go further on our secondary road system.

We are looking at criterion standards covering local government district roads and bridges to attempt to make them more appropriate to the needs they serve. I believe that the opposition memb ers would probably welcome that area in terms of the work in th e relationship of the department to LGDs. There are a few changes in appropriations, and I also want to provide the members of the opposition with a staffing breakdown for all appropriations. Before I do that, I just want to mention some of the changes in the appropriations if members would follow if they care to.

The Transportation of Dangerous Goods has been trans ferred to the Department of Environment and Workplace, Safety and Health, who are in the process of developing a Dangerous Goods Act. So that is one change involving three staff-years. Our Transportation Division was formerly under our Administration and Finance appropriation. lt is now a separate appropriat ion, which is more appropriate and more accurately reflects the service it provides, rather than being under Administration, under a separate appropriation, Transportat ion Division.

Ther e has been a rea llocation of Highw ay Maintenance and Winter Roads Program last year under Capita l Assets, now un der the appropriation for Highways and Airports, so that has been separated again, as it was in a number of previous years. 624 The work for other jurisdictions is now allocated under Appropriation 4, Highways and Airports as well, rather than Capital Assets. This again more appropriately reflects its maintenance function, rather than under a capital activity. So those are the main appropriation changes, and I would like at this time, Mr.

Chairman, to provide the members with the staffing reconciliation for the main appropriations, so that they have this information available to them to facili tate moving along and expediting the Estimates here, and we'll pass those out to the members that are present. That is my statement, Mr. Chairman. I hope that we are able to expedite matters and work along and move through the Estimates as quickly as possi ble, In provi ding all of the information the opposition would like to see. We certainly would like to answer all the Mem ber for Lakeside's questions in doing so. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Following tradition and practice and custom, the Chair now calls upon the leading opposition critic in order to present his customary reply if he so wishes. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all just a quick ques tion. Could the Minister, if we are going to speed right along with Estimates, does the Minister have a copy of his opening remarks that he

Thursday, 10 May, 1984 might leave with myself and I could perhaps refer to it from time-to-time during the course of various departmental expenditure perusals? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I think we can provide the honourable member with that information. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, the Minister, I think opened his remarks by saying that overall government initiatives and objectives were being met. There was no layoffs, jobs have been protected, etc.

He painted a rather, what I thought, fairly glowing picture of the high esteem this current government holds the Department of Highways and Transportation in. I guess I would correlate his opening statement to that timeworn adage that he was trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, and it turns out the Minister is really not all that much of a seamstres s, because, Sir, he has failed miserably.

I'd like to lay some facts on the table and I know under ordinary circumstances, with a Minister delivering this kind of a departmental appropriation, he should be apologizing to the people of Manitoba, but we haven't heard too many apologies from this government for mismanagement, et c. , so we didn't really expect it. The government has talked about jobs, maintaining them, creating them. They've crowed about the Jobs Fund. I think it's $220 million this year, they're talking about the Jobs Fund.

The Finance Minister has spoken in glowing terms of capital deficits, that really deficit is good if it incurs a capital asset. He has made the clear indication that is good deficit spending, that it was good debt, and that debt so incurred is good for the province, and he specifically referred to, Mr. Chairman, in his Budget address, the road system, the highway system in the province. That has been echoed by the Premier on a number of occasions and other members of the government at various opportunies.

Well, I'd like to give members of the committee and members of the government side some of the real facts about this government and its treatment of the Department of Highways and Transportation; a department that I might say, Sir, is crucially important to rural Manitoba, and in addition, is extremely important to the Province of Manitoba as a whole, and particularly the City of Winnipeg from the role the Department of Highways and Transportation does in job creation in the private sector. A lot of those jobs, Sir, are in the City of Winnipeg, not only in the rural areas of Manitoba.

The jobs that are stimulated by capital spending, the very kind of spending and incurring of deficits that the Minister of Finance speaks of in glowing terms, the kind of deficit that is incurred in road construction, supports jobs in the heavy-construction industry of Manitoba, the road builders - there are a number of very worthwhile, worthy and good firms in the heavy construction industry that provide service to this province.

There are jobs in the equipment-supply industry to provide the graders, the bulldoze rs, the scrapers, the loaders, the gravel-crushers, the asphalt plants, the mixers, to those heavy-construction contractors. There are repair suppliers that supply everything from replacement tire s to air filters, all of them with jobs dependent on the heavy-construction 625 industry in Manitoba. There are material suppliers that range from gravel, a very basic commodity, to asphalt, to pavement paint. All of those provide jobs in the Province of Manitoba.

This department in its construction program is important to university students who have often depended on either direct employment with the department for summer jobs and their financing for next year's univers ity, or jobs with the private contractors for summer work; jobs as machine operato rs, as flagmen, as gravel-checkers; all very important summer student jobs dependent on this department and its capital program of road building.

Not the least, is the service industry, the motel and hotel operators, the restaurateurs who provide the construction crews with meals, accommodation, entertainment; all of those create jobs in Manitoba.

Now, it would seem strange to an observer, given that the Department of Highways influences so many private-sector jobs in the province, and given that this government says they want to create jobs, that they want to fund the construction of lasting assets for the Province of Manitoba, and given that the Finance Minister, the Premier, and the government in general believe that capital deficits are good, because there's an offsetting asset, I guess the simple question is why have they abandoned the Department of Highways?

The Minister of Finance has told us that overall spending is up some 3.9 percent this year over last year, but if you take a look at this department which delivers capital assets to the people of Manitoba, you'll find that its overall spending is down two-thirds of 1 percent, so it's undertunded by 4.5 percent compared to other line departments. If you take a look at what this Minister is giving the driving public, you'll see that the Maintenance budget is down. You'll find that Construction is slightly up. lt might be interesting now to go through some of the appropriation listings on Page 92.

Spending on the Transportation Division is down; spending on the Motor Ve hicle Branch is down; spending on Air and Radio Services is down; spending on Highway Maintenance and Airport Maintenance is down; spending on Planning and Design is down; Management Services and Engineering is down; Construction is up slightly, but you know what is up a lot more is Administration and Finance, just the kind of area of spending and priorization that my colleague, the MLA for Turtle Mountain and others on our side have said.

This government has added some 47 percent to the administrative cost of government, while reducing delivery of programs to the people of Manitoba. This department, Mr. Chairman, is a classic example. Now even if we give that inflation is at 6 percent, which is a fair figure nowadays, the Construction budget just to hold its own in terms of last year's volume of construction would have to go up $6 million just to deliver the same program as last year, but it's going up less than a million-and-a-half.

So there is going to be less work done this coming year than there was last year, and that means fewer jobs in all of those industries that I mentioned earlier: the heavy construction industry, the equipment supply industry, the repair indus try, the supplier industry in gravel, asphalt, fewer jobs for summer students. The Maintenance budget, if it was going to keep up with an inflationary increase of some 6 percent, would

Thursday, 10 May, 1984 have to grow by $3.6 million. Instead it's down by almost 200,000.00. Now once again, what does this mean? lt definitely means there are fewer jobs, because if you haven't got the money to undertake the maintenance, then you're not going to have the people working for you. That falls directly against what the Minister and the Premier have said, that they want to maintain jobs. There are going to be fewer jobs in the maintenance of our highways. What is a worse problem is that you're going to have roads that are declining in their safety value to the driving public, to the motoring public.

You're goirig to have potholes; you're going to have surface breaks; you're going to have pavement markings that maybe aren't replaced as often as they should be, dividing lines, etc. etc., and that adds up to less safe roads to drive on. So I think it's fair to say that the government has misled us on two counts already. No. 1, they aren't spending money on capital assets in this department in the constructing of roads, and, certainly, Sir, they are creating unemployment in the private sector through less road construction.

Now if you take a look at just the salary component, and the Minister has delivered some SMY figures where they're down 30 jobs this year over last year, but I want to ask the Minister when we get to each department, how they justify the salary calculations because I've done a little bit of them and you find that the salaries are down to the equivalent of about $1. 5 million, given no increase and only factoring in the normal 2 percent that is generally there for increments that are just granted automatically in most cases.

Well, a quick calculation of $1. 5 million on salaries at $14, 000 a year works out to roughly 100 jobs. We'll find out from the Minister how close the figures he gives in the salary calculations we'll work out. So you know the Minister, in the tabling of his staff reconciliation, has already disagreed with his opening statement that they are - well, I'll read it to him.

I think this is it now, " ... consistent with overall government initiatives and objectives and they'll accomplish greater efficiency in our operations and effect staff reductions through attrition and redeployment." That hardly fits with the Premier's objectives of maintaining the job base and creating new jobs. I think, as we go through this department, we'll find out that the jobs at the administrative level have stayed the same, but the jobs at the repair crew level are the ones that are gone out of the district offices - out of the district offices that maintain our roads for the driving public.

We'll find out. Now all this is bad enough if - once again you know the motoring public has come to expect that this government is not going to spend money on roads. They expected it last year and they've come to expect it from this government and I suppose that wouldn't be bad enough or wouldn't be bad in general if the driving public weren't being used as a revenue source by the government. I guess this is where the shocking part of how this government treats the Department of Highways and the motorists in Man itoba really comes out.

Construction and Maintenance, if you lump the two together this year, will be up to $161. 8 million and that's up roughly 1.4 percent, but here's the outrageous fact that comes out of the perusal of the revenues of the Province of Manitoba; revenues from the users of the highway system in gasoline tax, diesel fuel tax, licences, car licences, driver's licences, and other sources of revenue to the department will total $18 6.8 million, up 8.8 percent this year over last year, while the department is spending only 1.4 percent more money.

Motorists in Manitoba will be paying $25 million more for the privilege to drive on Manitoba highways than they're cc;ntributing in revenues through licences, gasoline taxes, and other costs. Now one might ask, why is this? HON. J. PLOHMAN: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order is being raised. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, I'd just like to ask the honourable member to give us a breakdown of what taxes he's talking about or provide me with his computations on tax revenues related to highway use, so th at we could work from the same piece of information. MR.

CHAIRMAN: May I point to the mem bers of the commit tee that the staff have not yet been invited, and you are already asking questions at this point in time. I'd like to invite the members of the Jepartmental staff to come over and take their respective places so they can provide the figures. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. lt is customary for the Minister to be able to stand on his own two feet until after the introduction of his Estimates.

If he doesn't know what is in his own Revenue Estimates that were tabled by him and his government, then I suggest he should resign as Minister of Highways and Transportation right now, because these figures are pulled out of his own departmental revenues. HON. J. PLOHMAN: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. I did not ask to have staff give the figures that we have. I asked the honourable member to supply the figures that he has, so tha t I would have them for my information. 626 MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, he can get them out of Detailed Estimates of Revenue of the Province of Manitoba for the fiscal year ending March 31 st, 1985, as presented to the Third Session, Thi rty-Second Legislature, Government of Manitoba -t here's no page numbers - but the first page, the fourth page, the fifth page, the sixth page and seventh page, and he can add them up. Now, Mr. Chairman, may I get on with my reply to the Minister's statement? MR. CHAIRMAN: Please continue with your reply. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you.

Now if the government spent the extra money they are gleaning from the motoring public on construction, they'd have anot her $25 million to spend on construction and they wouldn't be spending $10 0 million, they'd be spending $12 5 million. Just as a small example, seeing as how the Minister is so curious about

Thursday, 10 May, 1 984 where these figures are coming from, I'll quote him one directly. His total Highway Construction Budget is $93 million. The total take that the Minister of Finance is going to take on gasoline tax alone, Mr. Chairman, is $1 00.4 million. That's already $7.4 million more than the Minister is going to spend on highway construction and that's only one source of revenue, Mr. Chairman.

So the problem they have in spending that extra $25 million is they haven't got enough roads in the Minister's constituency to rebuild and if they spent that $25 million, they'd have to spend some in Southern Manitoba. They'd have to spend some in Waskada to truck oil and to look after servicing of the oil rigs in my colleague, the MLA for Arthur's constituency. They'd have to even spend some in mine, heaven forbid.

They'd have to spend some in my honourable colleague, the MLA for Lakeside; my colleague, the MLA for Rhineland; my colleagu e, the MLA for Portage; my colleague , the MLA for Minnedosa; my colleague, the MLA for Turtle Mountain; my colleagu e, the MLA for La Ve rendrye; my colleague, the MLA for Emerson; but alas, those are south of No. 1 Highway in the majority and there ain't gonna be any spending there.

So that's No. 1 reason why they cut $25 million out of the user collected fees because they'd have to spend it in Conservative seats and the Schreyer administration started the tradition of no highway spending in non­ Conservative seats and it's been picked up again. Now the second reason, Mr. Chairman, is that they have stolen the $25 million from the Highway's revenues to put into the Jobs Fund. That's what's happened to it, Mr. Chairman, the good old Jobs Fund.

Now last year we called it the "fraud" fund." lt's still the "fraud" fund and there's $25 million coming out of highway user revenues that are going into the Jobs Fund. You see why we call it the "fraud" fund, Mr. Chairman? Now recall the people who are employed in road construction, and bear in mind that there is $25 million this Minister could be spending on highway construction and not have to go to the taxpayer for one additional nickel of it. lt's there in revenues for this department.

As a matter of fact, it is interesting to note that this department in the revenues it's collecting comes within $10 million of being a self-financing department. How many other departments in government are even close to that? lt's closer than what it was last year. I'll just get my figures out here, because I think the Minister might be interested in knowing. Last year under his colleague, the MLA for Lac du Bonnet's tutorship, they came within 16. 1 million of being a self-financing department.

This new Minister has given away more money, and they're within less than $10 million of being a self-financing department. Okay, employment for contractors, for equipment suppliers, repair and maintenance suppliers, gravel and asphalt suppliers, summer students, restaurants, hotels and motels, all those jobs could be there. The Minister has been given a copy of an evaluation done by the Road Information Program of Canada.

This is prepared by TRIP Canada for the Canadian Construction Association to try to demonstrate to governments across this country what they are doing when they cut capital budget in highway construction. They have used the example in Manitoba, and incidentally we'll get into it in the construction things. They have a very damning report. We have got a worse 627 road system in Manitoba now than all other provinces with the exception of Prince Edward Island. That's some kind of a record under a New Democratic Government that we've got.

But at any rate, the Minister has read this document, but I want to point out a couple of things out of the

Summary of Findings. They say that, "An additional $10 0.4 million a year improvement program in construction of highways would support an estimated 2,975 construction jobs and jobs in the related fields of equipment manufacture and supply, materials production and transportation." 100 million in extra construction would create nearly 3,000 jobs. That means that the 25 million bucks that the government has stripped out of revenues coming to the Department of Highways for the Jobs Fund has cost the Province of Manitoba 745 jobs in the construction indus try - 745 jobs, Mr. Chairman.

But we're going to have to bear and listen to advertising in the Jobs Fund as to how many jobs they've created. Well I wish they'd advertise that they stripped 745 jobs out of the construction industry in Manitoba by taking $25 million out of the highway user fees from the Department of Highways and put it into the Jobs Fund instead of into construction of highways. So if you want to add up the impact that this government and this Minister have had on the economy of Manitoba through the Construction Program which they have stripped back once again, we can come up with several glaring cond emnations.

The road system is falling into disrepair, No. 1; they are not even providing a maintenance budget which is holding its own, let alone a construction budget which is getting ahead of the needed reconstruction of roads.

They have been presented with a documented analysis that if they spent 100 million more, and I'm not asking them to spend 100 million more on construction, but I am asking them to spend 25 million more which is simply what they're stripping from the Department of Highways and revenues that are coming to the Department of Highways and created by the Department of Highways, and put that into highway reconstruction and create another 7 45 jobs. So, Mr.

Chairman, when we hear these Jobs Fund ads this summer , as we will hear, ad nau seum, and when we hear Ministers stand up and say that there are 14 ,000 jobs created in the Jobs Fund , just remember that you could pick 1, 000 jobs that this department cut from the private sector and from within the government itself. They are no longer there, because they pulled those $25 million out of the Department of Highways, out of the Construction Program, and put it into the Jobs Fund so they could advertise what good fellows they are. Now, Mr. Chairman, I want to tell you, they're not fooling anybody.

They are not fooling the motorists. They're not fooling the heavy construction indus try and the suppliers to that indus try. They're not fooling the opposition, and they're not fooling the people of Manitoba. This Minister, we had some hope that when he came in he could bring a new direction to the department and start making this department as the delivery vehicle by which the Premier could live up to his word, by which the Finance Minister could live up to his word, that they were going to spend money to create jobs to build capital assets. This Minister has failed. The

Thur8day, 10 May, 1184 Premier has failed, and the government has failed. it's cos ting jo bs in Manitoba, and there is no mo re additional money needed because the $25 million is in this department already. it's being stri pped from this department to create a $220 million Jobs Fund. So the jobs they're creating in the Jobs Fund, they are pulling out of the Department of Hig hways. They can't deny it, Mr. Chairman, because the people of Manitoba don't believe them any more. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: At this point in time, the Chair invit es the members of the departmental staff to take their respective places, please. The Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, it may be uncustomary at this time for me as th e Deputy Crit ic to this department, but I would like to make a small report if I may, not crediting the present Mini ster of Hig hways, but the credit, Sir, goes to Min isters who have served this department for a num ber of years prior to when this Min ister took over.

I can refer to the previous Mini ster, the Member for Lac du Bonnet, the Mi nister of Highw ays in the previous government, the Member for Lakeside and I could go back I could say for a number of years that we, or I, and previous members who've served the constituency of Portage la Prairie have been working for many many years. I speak, Sir, to the project that is presently taking place on Saskatchewan Avenue in Portage la Prairie. I'm pleased to be able to say, Mr. Chairman, that the progress is moving along quite well.

At this time they are laying the underground pipe drain system that will eliminate some of the problems that the city has been faced with for many years back. I understand that the replacing of some of the underground service that has been looked at now has been in there from, I supp ose, Day One in the history of the city. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair inqu ires if the member is making another reply. MR. L. HYDE: Pardon me again, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you making another reply? lt is customary that there's only one reply from the leading critic. MR. L. HYDE: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I thought as a critic of the department that I would have the opportunity to speak at this time. MR. CHAIRMAN: Normally only the leading critic is given one opportunity to make the reply. When we go to th e specific items and you have some more comments or remarks, then that will be the appropriate time to do it. MR. L. HYDE: Well, Mr . Chairman, I certainly do want to compl ete my statement at some time. If you will not permit me to do it at this time, I will be doing it when I can at a later time. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The mem ber will have tha t opportunity in fullness when we come to the Minister's Salary, or even before that. under Item 1. (b)( 1) . 628 MR. L. HYDE: Right. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I thank the Member for Portage. Deferring now the item on the Mi nister's Salary. We might as well go into deliberation starting with the first item of business which is Item 1. (b)(1) and 1. (b)(2). Executive Sup port of Admin istration and Finance, Salaries and Other Expenditures - the Honour able Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

As I was say ing, that the project is that now progressing quite well in Portage la Prairie to the point where they are laying the underground piping, that I understand replacing piping that has been there from, you might say Day One, as far as Portage la Prairie is concerned. Mr. Chairman, I realize that this project, well, it's a major project, and an expensive project for th e province. But it has, as I said earlier, been requested for many many years and finally is progressing to the point, Mr.

Chairman, when this project is compl eted, Saskatchewan, our main street, will I'm sure be the envy of all main streets in the Province of Manitoba. In concluding at this particular time, Mr. Chairman, I want to say that I want to invite and will invite all citizens of Manitoba to visit Portage la Prairie and see the final upgrading of Saskatchewan Avenue when it is compl eted. Mr. Chairman, with these few words of praise, you might say, for the Department of High ways, I certainly have other project4i that I will not be quite so flowery, is the word, to the department at a later time. Thank you. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Mini ster. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I would like at this time, Mr. Chairman, to introduce the members of the staff that are here. Boris Hryhor czuk, the Deputy Min ister; Jack Peacock, Assistant Deputy Min ister, in the centre; and Bill Dyck, the Director of Admi nistration, at this end; Siggy Goodbrandson, the Director of Operations, at the other end of the table; and earl Procuik, whose seated at the back of the room, the Assistant Deputy Minis ter, Registrar of Motor Vehicles, in the Motor Vehicle Branch. So with that, Mr. Chairman, I think we can proceed into the next appropriat ion.

I would just ask perhaps the ind ulge nce of the members in terms of the discussion of the high ways projects, I would hope that they would perhaps dis cuss th ose un der th e appropriation tha t deals with that. That is the expenditures related to Capital Assets. If we could dis cuss all Highways construction programs under that, I think it would save time, enable us to provide better answers and so on, to have the appropriate staff here at that time, rather than discussing it throughout the Estimates as perhaps has been done in the past.

I'm just asking whether the opposition members would have any problems with that? MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that agreed? (Agreed).

Thursday, 10 May, 1984 We are now on Item 1. (bX1) and 1. (bX2). Are there any other questions? 1. (b X1) , Executive Support, Salaries-pass; 1. (bX2), Executive Support, Other Expenditures- pass. 1. (cX1) , 1. (cX2), Admin istrative Services, Salaries; Other Expenditures - the Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, we note a $55,700 increase in this expenditure item. Can the Minister give us some indication what that involves? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: The increase is where we've taken two SYs that were previously of lower classification and rec lassified them for the internal audit manager position, and the communications co-ordinator, and budget co­ ordinator that will be in place in the department. MR. H. ENNS: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (c)( 1 ), Salaries, Admin istrative Services -p ass. 1. (c)(2), Other Exp endi tu res in Administrative Services- pass. 1. (dX1), Financial Services, Salaries; 1. (dX2), Financial Services, Other Expenditur es - the Honourable Mem ber for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: I'm trying to remember , Mr.

Chairman, what the basic function of this division within the admin istrativ e structure of highways, what it involves. Is this the area where it deals with the contractual arrangements and so forth with the contractors? HON. J. PLOHMAN: This does not deal with those. This deals with the staff and operating expenses to provide financial services to the department including prov iding de partmental managers with financ ial information to enable them to manage their program, and processing and monitor accounts payable and receivable, preparation of Budget, cash flow and financial statements.

I will just find out, and if you wanted to ask about what appropriation deals with contracts it is under 2.(aX 1). MR. H. ENNS: I appreciate that advice, Mr. Chairman.

I may just note for the Minister and staff that we would want to ask the department about that aspect of their rela tio nship in the handling of contracts generally at a time, the economy being what it is, gove rnments notorious for not being the prompt payers in the community at large, that always has been a problem, although I know the department has always add ressed themselves to it, but I think it's even more acute at a time when everybody is being pressed harder for their monies, accounts that used to be allowed to run for 60 days or even 90 days, the suppliers of the contractors perfo rming the con tracts for the Department of Highways are being pressed in a way that I think it's fair to say perhaps wasn't the case a few years ago, and I would like to know from the department whether or not that has been recognized the department and what efforts are being extended to speed up the cash flow when contra cts are successfully concluded or the kind of arrangements of 629 interim payments that the department makes from time to time, progress payments on the larger jobs.

Having put that on the reco rd, Mr. Chairman, we can pass this item here. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(dX 1)-p ass; 1. (dX2)- pass; 1. (eX 1) Personal Services, Salaries, 1. (e)(2), Other Expenditur es- pass. 1. (fX1) Computer Services, Salaries; 1. (fX2) Computer Services, Othe r Expendi tures - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: All of us are getting more involved with computer technology and computer services. Is there anything particularly new that is happening with respect to use of computer technology in the Department of Highways that the Minister would want to make the committee aware of? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I did in my opening statement mention that we are continuing with the wareh ousing, and, of course, expanding that to all of the warehouses throughout the province - Midland Street has pretty well been completed - as far as the system is concerned, but we are expanding that to Brandon, I believe, this year, as well as the annex at Midland Street and Wilkes Avenue location. We are also beginning the program for equipment inventor y, I mentioned that in the opening statement.

There's approxima tely 3,0 00 th ousand pieces of equipment that are now managed manually which is with a great deal of ine fficiencies - not reflect ing on the efforts of the people involved , but, of course, we all realize that if this could be moved to computer system that it might be much more efficient similar to the vehicles for the government, in Government Services, which have been put on the computer systems and allows us to monitor the use of that equipment and util ize it most efficiently. So that is a major move. The other is in the area of contracts and tendering.

We want to look at putting that on computer base as well. Those are some of the areas that we're moving into; construction monitoring. MR. H. ENNS: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, I'm aware that the department some years ago was looking at some innovative uses of computer technology with respect to high way desi gn.

I think the department either contra cted with or was involved in - I don't know whether you'd call it a pilot project - whether computer technology has to any significant extent, is it being used in the design branch of the department in assist ing in the computing of the materials to be moved and the actual design and layout of the road systems? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Ye s, Mr.

Chairman, that is the case in a numb er of districts where computerization has, in fact, assisted with the design and layout of road systems and the department is currently looking at further refinement and newer technology to work with a more sophisticated system in this area. MR. CHAIRMAN: We are on Item 1. (fX1) Computer Services, Salaries and 1. (fX2) Computer Services, Other Expenditures- pass.

Thursday, 10 May, 1884 MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, before we pass the resolution I've just got some . . . MR. CHA IRMAN: We cannot pass the resolution because of the Minister's Salary, it's part of that resolution. We will go to the next major item. Since we have already passed Item (f)

(1) Computer Services, Salaries and Other Expenditures, we go to the next major item which is Management Services and Engineering, 2.(a)(1) and 2.(a)(2) toget her. Operations and Contra cts : Salaries and Wages, Othe r Expenditures - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you. Just taking a little look at the overall staffing and dealing with the whole Management Services as a general observation. They are down some six SMYs - four of them in Traffic Inspection. The question I'd have is a general question so I don't have to repeat it every section. All of the salary appropriations are down in 2(

a) through 2(g), but yet there are only one, two, three of those appropriations that have fewer SMYs. Does this mean that the departmental staff in here took salary cuts? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The 27th pay period has accounted for approximately $1. 5 million decrease throughout the budget overall and that is applied to each appropriation so that is reflected in the salaries throughout the appropriations. Just further to that, that accounts for the fact that there is only an increase of about .5 million, I believe, even though there are 30 positions less overall in the department. I didn't follow the question.

The 30 positions would reflect half-a-m illion, and the other million dollars reduction in Salaries is from the 27th pay period. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Do th e Sala ries line reflect increments from fiscal year'84 to fiscal year'85? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, where ever they're applicable. MR. D. ORCHARD: What is the percentage impact of increments? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that is in the neighbourhood of 2 percent. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Then we've got something going on here which says that Salaries are down. lt's attributed to some staff reductions which is logical. You've got (

g) and (

e) and (

b) all with staff reductions, and they have a major reduction. But just out of curiosity, let's just pick the Sala ry line on Su rvey and Titles, (c) - 772 last year, 747 this year. Now you have indicated that the 27th pay period is not included. I understand from questions responded to by your colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources, that you are not factoring in any salary increase. HON. J. PLOHMAN: That is correct, from the September to March portion of the year, if that's what you are asking. 630 MR. D.

ORC HARD: Ok ay, but from April 1 to Septem ber, there is a 1. 5 percent increase in wages which on an annualized basis would be .75 percent. Would that be fair? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'd have to get the information exactly how the 1.5 percent applies in the budget, as well as how the increments apply. The 2 percent that was ind icated is on an annualized basis on average, but it could vary depending on the particular department or branch. I could get more information on that for the honourable member as to how that breaks do wn in the staffing figures for each appropriation. MR. D.

ORCHARD : That would be appreciated, because if we follow the Minister's rationale, there are no staff differences. There are increments factored in which averaged 2 percent on an annual basis. At least, that's what it always used to be. We have got a contract with MGEA that we know is worth 1. 5 percent over the first six months of the fiscal year. I think it was 1.5 percent for the first three months and then nothing for the next three, but I mean that factor would give you .75 percent over the year, so we've got 2.75 percent.

We have only lost the 27th pay period, but yet a department like Surveys and Titles is down by $27,000, and yet there is no reduction in staff. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I can only account for that on the basis of the 27th pay period causing that reduction. There is no fancy maneuvering of any figures there. They reflect the actual costs taking out the 27th pay period. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now, Mr. Chairman, does the Minister expect that the department with the staff reductions that are here listed will be able to maintain their level of service? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I don't know if you want to deal with the overall staffing for the whole area, or that we should go through each appropriation and discuss the level of service. I think that would be the most efficient way to deal with that question. We're dealing with Operations at this point, and we'll be moving to the next section, Laboratory and Materials. I could explain at that point the degree of change in service that we expect as a result of one staff-year reduction, and then move on to Traffic and explain that and the four in Highway and Traffic Inspection.

So if the honour able member would agree to proceeding in that way, we could deal with them as we approach each of those appropriations. lllltf. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I have no question tl .at Operations and Contracts can operate, because they're going to be sending out fewer contracts because the department's going to be doing less work to cut the budget. So there is no que stion that they're going to be able to do the job. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, just on that, the member should realize that we're dealing with only around 1 percent change overall in staff, so there isn't

Thursday, 10 r..y, 1984 going to be an appreciable change in service that one could look at and say there's going to be a marked decrease in any particular area. We can comment where there are some significant numbers of staff that are reduced, but generally speaking it's not going to reflect on the level of service. We hope it will lead to greater efficiencies in the operation. MR. D. ORCHARD: 2.(a)-pass, Mr. Chairman. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Could I just add - there was a question asked by . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: 2(a)

(1) Operations and Contracts: Salaries-pass; 2(a)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I think, Mr. Chairman, that I should answer the question that was asked by the Member for Lakeside with regard to payment for contracts. He was expressing his concern about the time that it takes for government to pay their bills, so to speak. I have information that currently our target is under 30 days, and we're averaging about 23 days for payment now, which I believe is excellent and certainly well appreciated by industry and by the people that we deal with. MR.

CHA IRMAN: Proceeding, we are now on Item 2(b)( 1) and 2(b)(2), Laboratories and Materials: Salaries and Other Expenditures. MR. D. ORCHARD: Hold it, hold it, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the Minister was going to explain how this department was going to operate as good with one less person, and where that one less person was one less from. MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we proceed to that item, the Minister wants to make an explanation again. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Okay, we're on Laboratory and Materials: Salaries and Wages, (b)(1). Is that right, Mr. Chairman?

That reflects a program reduction, slight reduction in testing that is done by Laboratory and Materials on asphalt, design and evaluation of concrete and so on. We feel that what this means is two less part-time people that will be hired, summer students, and would reflect then in slightly lower numbers of testing being done by the department without impinging on our ability to have the kind of information we require for our paving programs, the roads and gravel, they do testing on soils and so on.

This all will be continued within the department at approximately the same level, as I said with some reduction in the use of summer help. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the re's two summer student jobs gone.

Also there is testing that's not going to be done to maintain quality control in the few contracts the Minister is going to let this summer and my only observation - and it will be a topic of argument - so I'm just going to simply say that when I was Minister back in the good old days, when times were tough, money was short, if my memory serves me correctly we expanded the testing capability so we could make sure. out of these high capacity asphalt plants, that we 631 were getting a consistent sample, a high-grade product, and value for the contract.

I was encouraged to put additional testing in place to assure that the taxpayer was well-protected in his purchase of asphalt pavements. Now it appears as if the government has decided that all is well. Now either the department gave me bad advice four years ago or the Minister is being forced to cut summer jobs from students and endanger, through lowered quality control, the sizeable investment that we're making when we let paving and concrete contracts. MR. CHAIRMAN: What's your pleasure? Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I would just like to comment, Mr. Chairman.

I guess I find rather ironic that the honourable member would make that comment about expansion four years ago. Perhaps he overdid it at that time. We will maintain - and I'm assured by the department - that we will maintain high quality testing when required, where required, and as required. At the same time, the honourable member should realize that we're dealing with a number of pavement contracts and construction that would be somewhat less in terms of 19 84 dollars than it would prorated in - whenever he was talking about - 1980 or so, when he overexpanded this area and that would make a difference as well.

So we will be maintaining the testing. MR. D. ORCHARD: I mean we were spending like drunken sailors, remember, back in the good old days of acute protracted restraint, we were just spending like drunken sailors. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b)( 1) Laboratory and Materials, Salaries and Wages-pass; 2.(b)

(2) Laboratory and Materials; Other Expenditur es-pass. 2.(c)

(1) Surveys and Titles; 2.(c)

(2) Other Expenditures - Mr. Orchard. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister just - he doesn't have to provide it now - but I'm very curious in this department with no reduction in SMYs, how we are accomplishing that reduction in Salaries with the same number of people? So if you could just provide a little written explanation after supper that would just be delightful. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, I am advised that that decrease is attributable to the 27th pay period and I've indicated that.

If there's any additional information that would explain it, other than that reduction, I will do that but I am not advised that there is any other explanation. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, I wonder if I might make a request of the Minister. Could he just take this nice neat little department, with 26 SMYs, break it down into full-time, part-time, and go through the little page he's got, which shows what the salaries are going to be, so he can see what happened and that'll satisfy my curiousit y. Because other departments with even staffing requirements don't have that kind of a drop

ThundaJ, 10 May, 18&4 and maybe we're dr opping a couple of part-time summer students. I don't know or maybe we're not paying as much for our part-time help - I don't know but something is wrong and if he just could provide a little clarificat ion, it would be appreciated. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we will attempt to provide any additional information. Of course, we don't want to get into long investigations that would be probably be of the Order for the Return kind of request, but I will look at whether there is any other explanation that could be made in that area, in addition to what we've given the honourable mem ber. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (c) (1) ; 2.(c) (2)- pass; 2.(c)

(1) Salaries and Wages, Surveys and Title-pa ss; 2.(c)

(2) Other Expenditu res, Surveys and Titles- pass. 2.(d)(1); 2.(d)

(2) Bridges-the Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: We ll, I realize, Mr. Chairman, that maybe bridges is a little touchy subject in the last year or two. I know that under the general heading it covers bridge design; I wonder if he could tell me what's happening on the bridge design on Highway 250, north of Newdale, between Newdale and Sandy Lake. Is that bridge design under way there? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I don't know whether we could have the honourable member's indulgence on this.

We had asked about dealing with the overall construction program and, of course, Bridges are part of that; if we could deal with that under Capital Assets and then I could have appropriate staff to provide the detailed kind of information that would be required for those specific projects. If we could do that, it would facilitate our providing all of the information that the member might require. MR. D. BLAKE: I have no problem with that, if the Minister can tell me what time of the day we're going to get to that, because I'm trying to watch something in the other committee too. It'll be this even ing, I take it.

HON. J. PLOHMAN: I can't really predict that. MR. CHAIRMAN: If we move fast, we will go there soon. MR. D. BLAKE: If you stay where you're to, I'll come where you're at. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.( d)( 1); 2.(d)(2) - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, a quick question to the Minister. Does he have a design for the Pequis River Bridge? HON. J. PLOHMAN: As I said, Mr. Chairman, that we could perhaps deal with the detailed questions when we're under the Capital Assets without reflecting on the question at this time. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well then, out of courtesy to the Minister , since we may get there tonight, could the 632 Minister und ertake over the supper hour to determine whether he's got a design for the Peguis River Bridge, the one that was unfortunately burned. Would he try to find that out for this evening? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Certainly, I'll find out if there's any work that's been done in that area. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2(d)(2), 2(d)

(1) Bridges: Salaries and Wages -p ass; 2(d)

(2) Bridges: Other Expenditures­ pass. 2(e)( 1) Traffic: Salaries and Wages; 2(e)

(2) Traffic: Other Expenditures - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, what's the staff reduction here? HON. J. PLOHMAN: lt's part-time people minus 1. 26 staff years, which is the reduction in part-time help that is required. MR. D. ORCHARD: How many part-time help? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, 3. MR. D. ORCHARD: Three more summer jobs down the drain, Mr. Chairman. - (Interjecti on) - Yes, keeping track of them, three more jobs. Mr. Chairman, under Traffic.

I'm not sure whether Other Expenditur es, this isn't where your signalling de vice, the capital cost is, that's in anothe r appropriation, Mr. Minister? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That's right, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: We ll, Mr. Chairman, with reluctance we'll pass this

section with three more summer students unemp loyed . MR. CHAIRMAN: Traffic 2(e)( 1) , Salaries and Wages­ pass; 2(e)

(2) Other Expenditures- pass. 2(f)

(1) District Offices: Salaries and Wages; 2(f)

(2) District Offices: Other Expendit ures - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, there is no reduction in District Office SMYs. The salary reduction is roughly 5 percent. Is the Minister indicating that all of the - I've got to search into my memory for the term to use, the proper term - but the District Offices hire a lot of part-time and summer employment. Are ther e any people that won't be rehired through the District Offices this summer to undertake their various programs? A MEMBER: Good job he's got a deputy. HON. J. PLOHMAN: First I would, if I could, Mr.

Chairman, just reflect on the question that was raised under Surveys by the honourable mem ber. The 27th pay period - first of all in 19 83, the salaries were $772,000 under (c), Surveys and Titles (c)(1). The 3.7 percent of $772,0 00 is $28,564.00. If you subt ract the two, you get $7 44,000, and if you add on a few incremental increases that were requir ed there, you get up to 747.3. So, that explains to the honourable member

Thursday, 10 May, 1884 exactly what the difference is in the Salaries for that appropriation. Nothing mysterious there, it's just quite straightforward mathematics. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now, Mr. Chairman, I think he's not being very kind at all. Mr. Chairman, the 3,400 roughly was the difference between taking the pay period off and then adding in the in crements. Now if we've got a 2 percent roughly HON. J. PLOHMAN: 28,564 is that figure. MR. D. ORCHARD: . . . 2 percent of 772, last year's salaries, would be 4, 14, golly, looks like, is it right on?

I might have to calculate this over the supper hour because I haven't got my trusty old rapid-data calculator here. Now, the Minister was just going to explain how he was maintaining the staff from the District Offices, yes. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the numb er of staff is the same, there's no reductions there. Any reductions in part-time people would come under the Mainten ance

section and Mech anic al area of the Budget, which of course will be dealt with later. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2(f)( 1 ). MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, now just a minute. Okay, the District Offices, at one time we were plugging them into the ability to use the computer­ designed program. How many District Offices are so equipped now? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised five or six are now utilizing the Computer Services. MR. D. ORCHARD: And they're portable ,so you can go either five or six. HON. J. PLOHMAN: If you want the exact answer, we can get it for the member? MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I think we could pass District Offices. MR. CHAIRMAN: District Offices 2(f)

(1) Salaries and Wages- pass; District Offices 2(f)

(2) Other Expendit ures-pa ss. 2(gX1) Hig hway Traffic Inspections, Salaries and Wages; 2(g)

(2) Highway Traffic Insp ections, Other Expenditures - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Could the Minister explain the reduction of four SMYs? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, the four reductions there involve the removal of two vacant SYs in the roving inspection area, and two that were transferred to the Motor Transport Board, where they had been seconded and working previously, to traffic inspectors and now who are being allocated more appropriately to that appropriation where they were working.

They had been seconded, I believe, about eight years ago and just 633 had never been transferred over to that appropriation, and now more accu rately are placed under the Transport Board. MR. D. ORCHARD: That's very interesting. So, Mr. Chairman, I take from the Minister's answer that there are two SMYs have been transferred from 15(2)(

g) over to 15(6)(d)? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, that's correct. Then there's a reduction in two of the number of inspectors. So, there's effectively a reduction of two. MR. D. ORCHARD: Was this reduction in inspectors at the behest of, for instance, the Manitoba Trucking Association? HON. J. PLOHMAN: lt certainly didn't reflect any requests that were made by the Trucking Association, no. MR. D. ORCHARD: Is the Manitoba Trucking Association in full agreement with this reduction in traffic inspection capability? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We haven't discussed it in detail.

There are concerns, of course, about the whole area of motor transport regulations and we have, of course, undertaken the review there. I believe the Trucking Association would like to see a greater enforcement, however, we would like to look at that area when we are streamlining the process of the regulations and so on, an