Manitoba Hansard — 8 November 1988 (Sitting 74, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-74

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, November 8, 1988. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mr. Mark Minenko (Chairman of the Committee of Supply): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions and directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again . I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gllleshammer), that the report of the committee be received . MOTION presented and carried. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr.

Speaker: Prior to oral questions, may I direct the attention of Honourable Members to the gallery. We have from the Talmud Torah/1.L. Peretz Folk School, thirty-seven Grade 5 students under the direction of Mrs. Beatrice Gardener. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks {Mr. Mlnenko) . On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this afternoon . ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Kopstein Report Information Availability Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): My question is to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation {Mr. Cummings) .

In a memo that was dated ~ March 23, 1988, from the former Acting CEO of MPIC Y to all departmental managers within the corporation, 11 was suggested that all communications directed toward Judge Kopsteln be filtered through the CEO or one of the senior managers of the corporation . Now this amounts to muzzling a whole platoon of middle managers in the corporation who would have a lot to say about the senior management of MPIC . My question to the Minister is simple, Mr. Speaker . Did members of the Board of Directors of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation know about this memo? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister reaponaible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation): This memo was dated March 23, which was under the jurisdiction of the previous Government . I had not seen this memo until it was presented to me yesterday . I think that the air needs to be cleared somewhat because, since having received this memo, I had an opportunity to talk to Mr. Lane who was the signatory to the memo .

He has indicated to me in writing that the commission-staff interchanges were conducted in the absence of senior management, i.e., David Kidd, Barry Galinzoski and himself, and no direction was given to staff that would have interfered with the flow of information. Commission officials and consultants attended the corporate offices that they wished to attend and were provided office facilities at MPIC . In other words, Mr. Speaker, Mr.

Lane has assured me, and I am seeking further assurances from the other vice-presidents, that the commission had access to all of the managers at any time that they chose, and that the information was allowed to flow freely. •

(1335) Mr. Carr: That information contradicts the memo, where it states very clearly that all members of MPIC departmental heads are to funnel anything they want to say, and any requests by the judge or his officials to the CEO or one other senior manager . Cooperation of Managers Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Now I want to ask the Minister if he is concerned that Judge Kopstein did not get all of the information from middle managers that would have been required for a full and thorough evaluation of the management practices at MPIC? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister responsible for Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation): As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, in any conversation that I had with the judge prior to the release of his report, he indicated that he had been receiving full cooperation, and any information that he required was being made available. Since yesterday at noon, I have again talked to Judge Kopstein and he assured me, as he did in the news report to which I am sure the Member is referring, that he did not feel that his commission and their need to know was being impinged in any manner . Scope of Information Mr.

James Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, is the Minister satisfied that Judge Kopstein had access to an appropriate scope of information from all of those individuals who worked in senior and middle management of the corporation, so that his recommendations about senior management and about middle management were able to include the best advice available, and that advice was free flowing? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister responsible for Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation): Mr. Speaker, Judge Kopstein , it would seem to me, was the best judge of whether or not he was receiving the necessary information.

He feels that he was not impinged upon . I want to add another piece of information to the situation which will perhaps clarify it for the Members 2899

Tuesday, November 8, 1988 opposite . Mr. Lane assures me that this memo that went out was at the very beginning of when the commission was gearing up in order to prepare for him to receive information from the corporation . In fact, Mr. Galenzoskl became the facilitator to make sure that those people within the corporation who the commission's agents wished to talk to were available when they wanted them , so that the information was not being filtered In any way. It was being enhanced by the fact that Mr.

Galenzoski acted as a facilitator to make all people available to the corporation who wished to be Interviewed by the commission . Crown Corporation Act Public Meetings Mr. JamH Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, with a new question to the Minister responsible for The Crown Corporation Accountability Act (Mr.

Manness), this morning at the committee hearing we heard the chairman of the Manitoba Telephone System tell us how valuable It was for members of the senior executive for the corporation and the CEO to go into small towns In rural Manitoba so that the people had a chance to question those officials on the operations of that corporation and he, as a matter of fact, singled out a town such as Deloraine. The new Crown Corporation Pubilc Review and Accountability Act makes no mention of the mandatory requirement of public meetings .

If the Minister will not legislate the requirement, would he at least recommend to the boards of Crown corporations that this Government encourages such meetings with the public so that execut ives can be accountable to the shareholders of those corporations , the people of Manitoba? Hon. Clayton ManneH (Minister responsible for administration of The Crown Corporation Accountability Act): Mr. Speaker , the simple answer to the question Is yes. That is just good public relations and good marketing.

As we have said, nothing in the legislation prohibits any of the Crowns from going to the community and dialoguing in an open fashion with the ratepayers. Again the answer to that question is yes. Crown Corporations Accountability Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, the new legislation empowers a seven-member council, a kind of supercommittee , to oversee the operations of Manitoba 's Crown corporations . Yet the same legislation outlines the accountability of the boards through the Minister of the Crown .

I would like to ask the Minister, to whom are these Crown corporations accountable , to the Minister, to the supercouncil , or to both? *

(1340) Hon. Clayton ManneH (Minister responsible for administration of The Crown Corporations Accountability Act): Mr. Speaker, I wish that the Member opposite would see fit to put his views, as I am sure he will , to Bill No. 37 on the record when he chooses to speak toward it. Let me say that what we have attempted to do is to try and separate management from accountability, because in our view , there will be less opportunity for politicians, indeed for the people in power to try and obfuscate some of the goings on with respect to Crown corporations . This is the model that we have chosen.

We consider it to be one of the most progressive, one of the most open , one of the most accountable in the nation, specific to the question . In the management sense, the Crown will be directly responsible to the Minister in charge. In an accountability sense, to make sure that the corporations , the Crowns, indeed the councils , report in an open, honest, frequent fashion , there will be a Minister in charge of accountability . Complaints Review Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): With a supplementary to the same Minister, the Act requires the Crowns to maintain a record of all complaints that are received by it.

In the case of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, last year there were some 80,000 inquiries, many of them complaints that went into corporate head office . The legislation also empowers the supercouncil to review all of those complaints . My question to the Minister is, are we not perhaps creating a bureaucratic monster here? Hon. Clayton ManneH (Minister responsible for administration of The Crown Corporation• Accountability Act): I find it passing strange, Mr. Speaker, that the Member opposite would s_ay that we are creating a bureaucratic monster .

We are not giving the "supercouncil ," to use his words, $2.5 million to build a bureaucracy . So we are not a building a massive bureaucracy , as a matter of fact, exactly something to the opposite . Again , specific to the question, we are not directing that the supercouncil should review all of the registry of complaints , and yet they have the power, if they so choose , to look into those complaints and report in an open fashion to the people of Manitoba . City of Winnipeg Act Amendments Ms. Maureen Hemphill (Logan): My question is to the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme) .

I would first like to congratulate the Minister for the decision that he made where he said would not allow expansion of the urban limit line. I do want to say though, Mr. Speaker, it is the only decision that could have been made under the circumstances .

In light of the fact that we have adequate information that suggests we have land for development inside the City of Winnipeg to last us until the 21st Century, in light of the fact that that development plan outside of the urban limit line goes against our own adopted Plan Winnipeg , adopted by City Council, and the fact that any continued development would add millions and millions of dollars of taxes to the people of the City of Winnipeg , would the Minister please tell us- 2900

Tuesday, November 8, 1988 An Honourable Member: That is exactly what he said. Ms. Hemphill: Yes, I know it is, which is why this Government should now bring in the amendments that are required to The City of Winnipeg Act that they promised this summer. My question to the Minister is, will he now bring in the vitally necessary amendments to The City of Winnipeg Act in this Session? Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): First-of all, the question and the comments in regard to the development plan, there is a plan in place that was adopted by council as a by-law in April of 1986 after five years of discussion at City Hall level. In the Act, to the Member to clarify some history in the City of Winnipeg Act, we asked that a plan of Winnipeg be submitted as part of that plan, and at that time there can be a change to the plan at any time if they see fit .

All I am saying is that the City of Winnipeg, besides that there are extreme changes needed, all they have to do is pass a by-law, go through their public hearings and adopt another plan . That is where I think the Member for Logan (Ms . Hemphill) is a little confused . •

(1345) Amendments Delay Ma. Maureen Hemphill (Logan): I would like to clarify . I am actually looking at the Minister and at this Government to do what they promised they would do this summer . My question to the Minister is, why has he and this Government changed their priority which they indicated this August that a top priority was going to be given to the amendments to The City of Winnipeg Act and now are delaying them to the next Session? The major and important reforms, why are they put off and delayed to the next Session? , Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, I do not know where the Member for Logan (Ms. Hemphill) got her information. I have always been very, very clear on any time questions have come up In this House or to the press or anybody else that there wlll be changes to The City of Winnipeg Act, but only those changes that will affect and put in place in regard to elections or voters ' lists, etc ., so that the City of Winnipeg can start getting their rolls ready for the election and the fall election of '89 . The other changes will come through at the next Session . Election Expenses Disclosure Ma.

Maureen Hemphill (Logan): My last question to the Minister is to ask him whether or not he will support the Bill that is being presented in this House that is to deal with the election reform for election expenses at City Council. Is he concerned enough about what went on there in making that last decision? And will he and his Government support this Bill when it comes to the House because that is what the people of Winnipeg and the people of Manitoba want to see, some leadership in the City of Winnipeg activities? Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): I have made it quite clear that we will bring forward all the concerns in regard to The City of Winnipeg Act, not bring in piecemeal. The Member has suggested that campaign contributions are very important at this time. I say-they are very important at the time of an election . If someone is making campaign contributions to city councillors right now, I would call them something else. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Logan, with a final supplementary question . Ms.

Hemphill: I would like to ask the Minister, in light of the point he just made, whether he contacted the City of Winnipeg prior to his announcement to determine whether any councillors had received campaign contributions from developers . Mr. Ducharme: Mr. Speaker, in regard to the subdivision that I just particularly turned down or the amendment to Plan Winnipeg, the only consultation I have had with City Hall was to advise the Mayor, which is my duty, first thing this morning by telephone and send over a letter by courier In regard to this so he would not read about it in the newspaper.

I have not had any discussion in regard to the procedures at City Hall because that did not determine my decision in this particular regard. Multiculturalism Task Force Report Release Mr. Mark Minenko (Seven Oaks): My question is to the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mrs. Mitchelson) . Over the last several months, the Liberal Party has asked this Government to spell out its multiculturalism policy as the Liberal Party had earlier this year. This Minister advised us in September of this year that she is awaiting the Task Force on Multiculturalism before taking any action. I understand, Mr.

Speaker , that the task force report is ready . My question to the Minister of Culture , Heritage and Recreation is, when can Manitobans expect this Conservative Government to table their multiculturalism policy in the House, and when can we expect the task force report to be tabled in the Legislature? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): The answer to the second question is very soon. As a matter of fact, the reason we were waiting to make that report public was because we needed the French language translation . That is just now ready.

If the Members of the Liberal Party do not think it is important to have reports translated into French, then let that be their problem, but my responsibility as Minister is to ensure that we have that in place and ready before it is tabled in the House or it is made a public document. Mr. Speaker, sure, the Liberal Party had a policy of multiculturalism but the fact is that the Liberal Party 2901

Tuesday, November 8, 1988 did not form the Government of Manitoba and the Liberal Party Is not responsible for ensuring that we meet the needs of the ethnic community . I have indicated in the past and I will indicate again to the Member that we are going to ensure that we consult with all members of the ethnic community down to the grass-roots level and not just consult with those who are Conservatives in the ethnic community. We want to ensure that all members of the ethnocultural community have their concerns addressed before we develop a policy . Mr. Minenko: Mr.

Speaker, with respect to French language rights, I do not think there is any question as to what the Liberal Party position is on that . •

(1350) MIC Meeting Deputy Minister Attendance Mr. Mark Mlnenko (Seven Oaks): I am advised that the Deputy Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation has attended meetings of the Manitoba lntercultural Council. My question to the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mrs . Mitchelson), can the Minister advise this House what is the purpose of having the Deputy Minister attend meetings of the MIC? Can all umbrella groups receiving lottery funding be expected to have the Deputy Minister attend their meetings as well? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): Mr.

Speaker , I want to be quite clear and open and frank. I attended meetings with the MIC, as did my Deputy Minister . We just had an audit done by the Province of Manitoba and the auditor addressed some specific issues of loose accountability within MIC . My department is working with MIC to ensure that all of the auditor's concerns are being addressed. How can we possibly work with them if we do not meet with them? MIC Grant Freeze Mr. Mark Minenko (Seven Oaks): A supplementary to the same Minister, the Minister has had that special audit of the MIC for several weeks now.

The audit advised that the system for approving and disbursing grants has served Manitobans reasonably well , and yet I understand that certain grant monies are being held back, are being frozen . Will the Minister release this freeze on grants and allow the various organizations in the ethnocultural community to continue their good work on behalf of all Manitobans? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): I believe that the grants that the Member opposite is talking about were addressed at a meeting of the CRAC committee of MIC just this last week, so in fact the grants to the ethnic communities are being disbursed. Right to Farm Legislation Status Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): On October 17, during the discussion on the Agriculture Estimates, quite a bit of discussion took place regarding the need for right to-farm legislation and I believe there was unan imity in the need for such legislation, or perhaps as the Minister of Agriculture (Mr.

Findlay) suggested, maybe changes to The Nuisance Act which would have the same effect . My question is to the Minister of Agriculture . Can he tell me the status of such legislation and will it be brought forward in this Session? Mr. Bill Uruski (Interlake): Is he a nuisance or is he not? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): To help the Member for Interlake (Mr. Uruski), no, nobody is a nuisance.

Seriously, of the Member's question, yes, we did discuss it in Estimates and, before Estimates had started, I had instructed staff to start looking at _, developing right-to-farm legislation and the options of improving the regulations under The Nuisance Act . To this point in time, we have not had a Session to get back together to look at what is the appropriate option to follow . Municipality of Springfield Housing Development Mr.

Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): As the Minister is fully aware, there has been a problem in the Rural Municipality of Springfield which necessit .ated the rescinding of a by-law which was too restrictive as far as the farm population was concerned when it came to the disposal of waste . I understand now that there is another hearing to be held by the same municipality next week concern ing a request for a housing development southeast of Dugald . My question is to the Minister .

Will there be any action taken to ensure that a decision is not made by that municipality which once again will lead to this urban rural conflict as far as urban sprawl is concerned? •

(1355) Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): The situation that developed in the R.M. of Springfield with regard to the council passing some very restrictive legislation on how farmers would dispose of manure caused great concern in our department. The Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Cummings) and I met immediately with the reeve of the council and talked to him about what the consequences were of the by law that they were proposing.

I am pleased to say, yes, they have withdrawn the present by-law and staff of the Department of Municipal Affairs and staff of Agriculture have met with the council to try to develop an appropriate by-law that deals with the rural-urban situation in that municipality . To my knowledge ; they are continuing the consideration and 2902

Tuesday, November 8, 1988 having meetings with the farmers . The council is having meetings with the farmers , with and without our staff, trying to arrive at a consensus that everybody can live with, with regard to the urban-rural concept. Right to Farm Legislation Independent Land CommiHion Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): As the Minister Indicated in an earlier discussion during the Estimates, the Legislature does not have the authority to overrule any by-laws that are established by the municipality . My question then is to the Minister.

Will he include in ttie right-to-farm legislation the establishment of an independent land commission that will have the authority to look at all of these proposals and bring back recommendations so that there are not problems created by this rural-urban interface in terms of land sprawl and so on? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Certainly, we will look at that option, but whatever we prepare or would want to propose, we will take it to the farm community, take it to the municipal councils, to get feedback as to what is going to be appropriate legislation that meets the needs, that does not unduly suppress the potential for development, because there Is a definite conflict and it will be very difficult to strike that middle ground that everybody is going to be satisfied with. We, through consultation, will do whatever we can to get as close to that middle ground as possible .

Free Trade Agreement Legal Opinion Misleading Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Yesterday, the First Minister tabled what he said was a definitive opinion on the Free Trade Agreement and its impact on Hydro, when clearly that was not the case because nothing in the opinion dealt with the question of the proportionality clause,

Section 904 of the agreement . Nothing dealt with the ability of Manitoba Hydro to use preferential rates. It did not deal with a whole host of other questions that have been raised about the impact. My particular question is to the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) . In the information released that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) delivered to the House yesterday, the title of it was, and I quote, "Hydro Export Policy Won't Violate Trade Pact." Mr. Speaker, in the very same legal opinion that was tabled by the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) it says: "We think it would be difficult, though perhaps not impossible, for the U.S. to successfully argue that a two-tier pricing system applied by a utility is actually a minimum export price or an export restriction as that term Is meant under the agreement . Further, in addition, dispute settlement applies in general cases where either party considers that measure" - Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Storie: -one measure- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Does the Honourable Member have a question? Would you kindly put your question? Mr. Storie: My question is to the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr.

Neufeld). These two statements do not coincide . They do not agree. They are in fact in direct contradiction of each other . Can the Minister of Energy and Mines tell this House why the First Minister of this province has chosen to mislead the people of Manitoba on this issue? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is and the Member knows full well that in the overall conclusions and recommendations of the

summary of legal opinions put together by the firm of Cassels, Brock and Blackwell-that is the same firm that was hired by the NDP, absolutely the same firm that was hired by the NOP, so that we are not hiring another firm seeking a different opinion. This very same firm says a two-tier pricing policy approved by Manitoba Hydro's Board , providing that prices charged to Manitoba customers will be at cost while prices to U.S. customers will be the best market price available, does not appear to contravene the Free Trade Agreement.

That is their conclusion, their definitive conclusion, and no amount of twisting or misrepresentation by the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) is going to change that legal opinion. Aluminum Smelter Preferential Treatment Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): The Member continues to add insult to injury by misinforming the House about who did what in terms of legal opinion. The NDP did not contract for any legal opinion . My further question to the Minister -(lnterjection) My further question, if the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) will contain himself, is to the Minister of Energy and Mines and the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro (Mr. Neufeld) . If it comes down in this province to a determination by the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro that to have an aluminum smelter in this province requires a preferential rate for a period of time, even if in giving that preferential rate- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Storie: -there is a net economic benefit to the province- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Mr.

Storie: -will the Minister tell this province how he is going to defend the fact that we cannot do that if the Free Trade Agreement were to come into effect? •

(1400) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we have had a wonderful revelation today . The former NOP administration fought the Free Trade Agreement on the 2903

Tuesday, November 8, 1988 basis that it would have an adverse effect on Manitoba Hydro's ability to export energy and now the Minister responsible, the former Minister responsible, is saying that they never asked for any legal opinion to arrive at that conclusion. That is irresponsible, absolutely irresponsible!

Secondly, with respect to the position that he said he is taking, that he wants the ratepayers of Manitoba, all of his constituents in Flin Flon, and all of our constituents In this Legislature to have to pay 5 percent or 10 percent more on their hydro bills to subsidize a U.S. multinational corporation to set up a plant here, that Is sheer Insanity. If he Is going to suggest that, now we know why they were defeated and resigned to Opposition forevermore in this Legislature, because the people In Manitoba do not want that kind of policy. Mr.

Storie: It Is an unfortunate Indictment of the Premier's limited intelligence that he does not understand what a net economic benefit is to the people of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please . Free Trade Agreement Legal Opinion Limitations Mr. S"•"tr: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon, with a supplementary question. Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): My further question to the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr.

Neufeld) is, could the Minister of Energy and Mines indicate why other serious questions about the impact of the Free Trade Agreement were not asked to this particular law firm, why questions about the proportionality impact of the Free Trade Agreement, why questions respecting Manitoba's sovereign right to do as it pleases with its energy resources were not asked? Why questions relating to the ablllty of this province or the federal Government to Impose energy policy, why were those questions not addressed in the legal opinions sought by the First Minister (Mr. Filmon)? Hon.

Gary Fllmon (Premier): The fact of the matter Is that this former Minister, the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie), Is acknowledging that he did not ask any questions or legal opinions when he was the Minister responsible. He opposed the Free Trade Agreement without having any legal backing for his position on the Free Trade Agreement and Its effects on Manitoba Hydro. Very clearly, Mr.

Speaker, the reason we did not ask a legal opinion as to whether or not we could resign and force the people of Manitoba, the ratepayers of Manitoa, to Indefinitely subsidize a U.S. multinational corporation to set up their aluminum smelter here was because we thought that was the most insane public policy that no Government should ever want to do. We do not want an opinion on that because that is not good public policy for Manitobans and Manitobans should not accept and would not accept that policy, so we did not ask for a legal opinion because we never want that to be the case here in Manitoba . Mr.

Speaker: Order, please . Order! Computerized Mapping Production Slowdown Mr. Herold Driedger (Niakwa): In a press release-I will try and be much calmer here. In a press release dated February 9, 1987, the Provincial Surveys and Mapping Branch announced that they were in the process of converting to a new digitalized computerized mapping system. They forecast a tenfold increase in production and a dramatic decrease in the cost to taxpayer and consumer as a result of this conversion.

I am sure no one in this Chamber will question the desirability of more accurate maps being produced more frequently and at less cost. My question to the Minister of Natural Resources is, why then has the actual output of maps since this announcement was made shrunk from the average of 30 maps produced by hand each year to only three? The announced projection was 300. Why have only three maps been produced by this new process? Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): Good question. I am going to ask my department that same question. When I have the information, I will get back to you .

Churchill Map Project Resources Diversion Mr. Herold Driedger (Niakwa): With a supplementary question, why has the Churchill Map Project been put on hold? Only three of eight maps have been produced . Why have resources been diverted to southern Manitoba? Why are the most popular areas of the province not even being scheduled for mapping at this moment? Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): Again, it is a question I am going to refer to the department, the Mapping Branch , and get back to you when I have the answers. Mapping Project Southern Manitoba Scale Change Mr.

Herold Driedger (Niakwa): With another supplementary probably for notice, and I understand that. Why has the one to 2,000 scale mapping project for southern Manitoba been abruptly changed in midstream to one in 10,000 scale project, which is not only inappropriate but also more expensive? Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): Same answer, Mr. Speaker . Wuskwatim Project Environmental Impact Study Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): My question is to the Minister of Energy and "Mines (Mr.

Neufeld), and it follows the announcement by Manitoba Hydro today that it is commissioning environmental impact studies in regard to the Wuskwatim Dam. There is concern 2904

Tuesday, November 8, 1988 that this Government is predisposed toward putting Conawapa on the back burner, proceeding with the Wuskwatim development and maintaining coal-burning plants which would have serious negative environmental impacts on Manitoba. My question to the Minister is, will the study by Manitoba Hydro look at the complete environmental impacts of Wuskwatim, including the effects of flooding, Including the effects of possible mercury contamination and also including socioeconomic impacts, as has been the case with previous dams?

In addition, will the Minister commit this Government to consulting with Northerners once the environmental impact studies have been completed to ensure that Northerners have full and complete participation in the development, as took place with Limestone, to ensure that Northerners do have a say in terms of what happens with future developments? Some Honourable Membere: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minieler reeponeible for The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, it is Manitoba Hydro 's intention to keep all of their options open. Part of that option is Wuskwatim .

In that , they are doing an environmental Impact study. It will be a complete study. After that is done , they will decide on their course of action. WUskwatim Project Meeting with Northerners Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), with a supplementary question. Mr. Sieve Aehlon (Thompson): My supplementary question to the Minister is exactly in regard to what will be happening at that point. Will Manitoba Hydro, will this Government be meeting with the communities that will be affected because certainly Wuskwatim precedes Thompson, Nelson House?

Other communities will be affected by flooding . It is clearly documented that there will be far more environmental damage than there will be from Conawapa. And further , will the Government commit itself to ensuring that a similar agreement to the Northern Flood Agreement will be signed if it does proceed with the environmentally damaging Wuskwatim development? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minieter reeponeible for The Manitoba Hydro Act): It is precisely because we do not know what the total impact will be that we are doing the impact study. When we find out the impact, then we will make our decision . Mr.

Speaker: The Honourable Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), with a final supplementary question . Mr. Aehlon: I hope that will involve Northerners . Laid Off Employees Legislation Mr. Sieve Aehton (Thompeon): I have a further question and it follows the announcement , again another layoff notice in Manitoba affecting 34 Dominion Store employees and follows previous questions I have asked the Minister in regard to plant closure legislation. I would like to ask the Minister of Labour (Mr. Connery), will he meet with representatives of the 34 laid-off employees who received their notice of layoff this week?

Will he meet with representatives of the 470 Wescott workers? And will he finally commit this Government to doing something about the laid-off workers in Manitoba , giving them greater protection that exists currently under legislation? •

(1410) Hon. Edward Connery (Minietar of Labour): Well, Mr. Speaker, the Member knows very well that our department meets with any groups. We have never turned down a request to meet with them. With the Wescott organization, the Member knows very well, as I said in this House, we have a committee that is in place working with the company. The company has designated two people to work with the provincial Government and the federal Government to see what can be done, if and when those layoffs really do take place . Hopefully, the company will be sold and those jobs will be maintained .

Our Government is working very hard to ensure that those jobs do not disappear . Goulds Point Development Plans Mr. Ed Mandrake (AHiniboia): I have a question for the Acting Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay). The Minister of Highways and Transportation is aware of the Moose Lake , Goulds Point Recreational Association. On August 18, 1986, this Minister supported the proposal of a road from Middlebro to Goulds Point. He is quoted in Hansard as saying: "The American people on the Ontario side are developing left and right.

We virtually do nothing ." My question to the Acting Minister is, would the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Albert Driedger) still support the stand that he took on August 18, 1986? Hon. Glen Findlay (Aeling Minieter of Highway• and Traneportalion): On behalf of the Minister of Highways and Transportation , I will have to take that question as notice. Feasibility Study Mr. Ed Mandrake (AHiniboia): Thank you . The Minister and myself met with the association on August 22, 1988. This Minister was advised that $150,000 worth of fishing and hunting licences were sold annually in this area.

My question to the Acting Minister, did the Minister speak to the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Penner) about the proposed development of Goulds Point , and will the Natural Resource Department 2905

Tuesday, November 8, 1988 allocate money from this year's budget so that the association can conduct a feasibility study on cottage areas and recreational facilities at Goulds Point? Hon. Glen Findlay (Acti1111 Mlniater of Highway• and Tranaportation): I cannot speak on behalf of the Minister as to whether he spoke with anybody else after the meeting, so I will take the question as notice. Highway Coit Sharing Mr. Ed Mandrake (Auiniboia): My final supplementary, Mr. Speaker, he will probably take this as notice also and that Is understandable .

I have spoken to U.S. officials and they have Indicated their willingness to share the cost of the construction of the road to Goulds Point. My question to the Minister is, will he speak to the Minister of Transport so that he can in turn then spejlk to the Minnesota Government officials about the cost sharing of the construction of the road to Goulds Point, as this road will provide better accessibility for our American friends to the northwest angle. Hon.

Glen Findlay (Acting Miniater of Highways and Tranaportatlon): All I can say to the Member is, yes, we will definitely make the Minister of Highways and Tran!fpOrtation (Mr. Albert Driedger) aware of the opportunity to cost share in the road , and he will get back to you as soon as he can . Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired . NON-POLITICAL STATEMENTS Mra. Sharon Carataira (Leader of the Opposition): Could I have leave to make a non-political statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Leader of the Opposition have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) Mra.

Carataira: Today is a 50th anniversary . Regrettably, it Is not an anniversary which anyone wants to celebrate. It Is the anniversary of perhaps one of the greatest examples of man's inhumanity to man. In 1933, on April 7, Hitler decreed the dismissal of the Jews from Government service and from universities . By 1935, they had been forbidden to intermarry but beginning today, 50 years ago, began under the direction of the S .S . the systematic destruction of the Jewish people in Germany .

This event must be remembered by all of us, not because any of us contributed to it but as an example that all of us must reach Into our hearts and our minds to ensure that It does not happen again, and all of us are faced frequently with examples of this type of anti semltic feeling which still exists. The Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Leader of the NOP Opposition (Mr. Doer) and myself all received a letter on October 4 which could only be interpreted as anti-semitic literature .

If we are not vigilant, if we do not remember events such as this one that began some 50 years ago and ultimately led to the destruction of six million people, then we forget our humanity and we become lesser human beings . I know that everyone in this Assembly wants to rededicate ourselves to the principle of humanity on this particular occasion . Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Yes, Mr. Speaker , could I have leave for a non -poliHcal statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) have leave? (Agreed) Mr. Findlay: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, and all Members of the Legislature . It is indeed a pleasu re today to rise and ask that all Members of this Legislature recognize the farm women of Manitoba . Farm women are a very diversified , articulate and competent group of people. Unfortunately, over the years , much of their efforts have gone unrecognized but they have over the last three years had a very successful annual conference . The reason I am rising today is to recognize that they are having it in the City of Winnipeg for the first time . • There are over 500 farm women going to attend this conference .

In the past two years, they have had to turn people away because there has been more willingness to attend than there have been spaces to accommodate them . Certainly on this the first day of their meeting, I would like to have all Members of the Legislature recognize the contribution of women in the farming community, both past, present and in the future , to their role as wives, as mothers, as homemakers, as farmers and as community leaders .

There are many contributions made from that direction, and I know the strong voice that they are assembling through their annual meeting in the City of Winnipeg over the next three days will exemplify that on into the future . Thank you. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Government House Leader . Hon. Jame• Mccrae (Government Houae Leader): Mr. Speaker, I rise to seek the consent of Honourable Members to make a non-political statement . •

(1420) Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Attorney-General have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, it was my very great pleasure, as Minister of Cooperative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs, this morning to attend Daniel McIntyre School in the City of Winnipeg to make some presentations to five students at Daniel McIntyre who have taken

part in my department-sponsored contest to make a television commercial dealing with consumers . It was my very great pleasure to present $50 cheques to the five people involved at Daniel Mac school, and those people are Lynn Lai, Tai Woo, Fatima Teixeira, Melissa Catacutan, and Yasmun Singh . Now these 2906

Tuesday, November 8, 1988 students at Daniel McIntyre were part of a contest, and those involved with judging were my department and the Manitoba Consumers ' Bureau and Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Canada), and the Consumers' Association of Canada . I think all Honourable Members would agree with me that it is important that young people today become interested in many aspects of society , but certainly consumerism is becoming more and more important as we carry on.

I would like to tell Honourable Members that the winning 30-second commercial will be produced and broadcast by CHMI, that is MTN in Portage la Prairie, and it is expected to be aired in December . Again, I congratulate the students involved and invite students from across Manitoba to get involved next year. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James Mccrae (Government Houae Leader): I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mrs . Mltchelson), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE Mr. Harry Enns (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I choose this opportunity to express a grievance at this moment. I am aware of the tradition and custom that the grievance motion, which is an opportunity available to all Members of the House to express a matter of specific concern to him is usually exercised by Members of the Opposition, inasmuch as the grievances are normally directed against the action of one's Government or the Government of the Day. I do so on this occasion nonetheless rise to express a grievance that I direct to my Government and to the Minister responsible .

I do so, prompted largely because of my respect for a former colleague of mine, the former Member for St. Norbert , the former Attorney -General of this province, whom some of you will recall and remember . Certainly the public record is filled with his deep and continuing concern, indeed his foreboding warnings to the then Government about a policy direction that was being contemplated and eventually undertaken that comes and brings me to the point of my grievance, and that is the tragedy that is happening to Manitoba youngsters of Native ancestry . Mr.

Speaker, I direct this grievance, because I have to, towards my Government and towards the Minister responsible, but let me say and make it very clear that in no way can the present Government or the present Minister be held accountable for the tragic circumstances that have involved the life of two youngsters, Manitoba youngsters of Native ancestry , the traumatic repeated rape of another youngster . But, Mr. Speaker, it nonetheless falls on the shoulders of the present Government and the present Minister to do something about it. Mr.

Speaker, the Free Press editorial has it right in the sense that something has to be done about it. Mr. Speaker, I have never presented myself, nor do I on this occasion, as any particular expert on the very complicated and difficult problems facing the resolution to some of the long-standing social problems involved that the Minister currently responsible faces, that this Government faces .

I do not make this grievance with lack of sensitivity toward my Native brothers, who I believe have for good reason looked upon a specific program and a particular part of the program of child care that is of great concern to them and to their culture . I speak directly to the Member for Rupertsland (Mr. Harper) who is of that ancestry and who knows better than I do whereof I speak, but I look for him to support me and to express the same concern that I do because we are talking about the lives of Manitoba youngsters . You will recall, Mr.

Speaker, that five years ago when and I think it can only be described-a radical departure of child care was undertaken by the then NOP Government, we in Opposition, and particularly my former colleague and friend, the then Member for St. Norbert, repeatedly cautioned, warned the then Minister of the NOP administration of the potential difficulties arising from that action. Mr.

Speaker, I will not attempt to suggest that we can simply go back to the delivery system that was then in place, although certainly I would not consider it unwise of the present Government or indeed the present Min ister to reexamine those changes that were made five years ago, but I accept the fact that there is a greater demand and a greater need for community involvement , for community participation in this very important , very sensitive question of child welfare .

I am not prepared to condemn or to write off the experiment that the then administration introduced some five years ago that decentralized, if you like, the delivery of child care and created the present system of a number of child agencies to look after this important aspect of our social policy. But there was one specific policy, Mr. Speaker, that I remember so well my colleague from St.

Norbert and others of the Opposition at that time taking such extreme exception to, and that is the forcible breaking up, the forcible reuniting of foster children who had bonded with their foster parents, forcibly using of our courts to return these children against their will to the setting of their cultural groupings, and in this case mostly back to the reserves from whence they came , in some cases, many years from the time that they had left those original homes . Mr.

Speaker , we have now seen the tragic circumstances that follow in the pursuit of this policy of a youngster of Native ancestry, forcibly removed from her Alberta home , faced with a situation that she had to live through and will live through for the rest of her life, upon her return to her original reserve . They had a boy, frozen in the cold snows of The Pas, and we now have the tragic death of Margaret Chubb . Mr. Speaker, better heads and better minds will try to sort out and resolve the policy that is called for, but 2907

Tuesday, November 8, 1988 I am dismayed that no one raises the issue in this House. Is It because we are all playing politics and are afraid of talking about a problem that is in our midst and of our making? I can understand former Members of the administration responsible for this program not being among the first to raise and draw public attention to the failure of this aspect of the program . I have greater difficulty understanding the Official Opposition for not voicing concern about this matter, or are we indeed all currying favour with a particular block of voters at this particular time . •

(1430) Well, Mr. Speaker, Manitoba children-and I prefer to refer to them as Manitoba children, not of any particular ancestry-are currently at risk so long as that specific policy is in place. I earnestly call on this Minister, on this Government, to at least suspend immediately that specific policy of this program that calls for the forcible reuniting of children, that calls for taking foster children , who fortunately are finding love and care in foster homes , simply because it fits for the greater policy within the department . It seems to me, Mr.

Speaker, that the subject matter drawn to our attention by today's editorial in our major newsp11per, a tragedy that three youngsters have experienced , urgently calls for some action on the part of Government, and my Government happens to be the Government responsible for that action . So, Mr.

Speaker, I thank Honourable Members and yourself for the opportunity to exercise this privilege that, I remind all Members , is open to all of us, to look within ourselves , to set aside the question of concern about political favour with any group of citizens of Manitoba, and to accept our responsibilities to the children of Manitoba whose lives are at risk . Thank you, Mr. Speaker . QUESTION put, MOTION carried and the House resolved itself Into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr.

Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Education; and the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks (Mr. Minenko) in the Chair for the Department of Health . *

(1440) CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-EDUCATION Mr. Chairman, Harold Gilleehammer: I would like to call this meeting to order of the Estimates of the Department of Education . I believe the Honourable Minister (Mr. Derkach) has some information . Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minieter of Education): Thank you, Mr. Chairman . On October 24, three areas were taken as notice and we said that we would provide information in the area of literacy .

I have some handouts this afternoon : first of all, a list of literacy projects funded by the province in 1988- 89 and those funded by the Department of Secretary of State 1987 and 1988; secondly, an historic review of literacy programs supported by the Adult and Continuing Education Branch since 1980; and No. 3, a breakdown of expenditures for literacy programs .

In addition, we have responses to questions raised in Estimates on November 7 and several things here : first of all, a list of Small Schools Pilot Projects in 1988- 89; courses were developed by MCALC; funding guidelines for Winnipeg Core Area Initiatives ; a list of community college courses cancelled in 1988-89; a list of number of students on waiting lists at the community colleges ; and a list of courses offered in satellite centres. Yesterday, Mr. Chairman, the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) brought forth an issue and pointed to a letter that had been received by the department or by myself as Minister .

I would like to advise that no such letter has been received by the department or by myself as Minister today . So if the Member for Flin Flon has a copy of that letter where it shows that it has been addressed to us, we would appreciate seeing it because obviously , if it has been addressed to us, it must have been lost . Also on November 3, the Member for Flin Flon asked about the number of professional and technical staff in the assessment unit , and I wish to advise , Mr. Chairman, that I made an error in the response in that there are eight professional and technical people in the unit .

The assessment unit has three professional staff, one of whom is on leave of absence following his two-year educational leave; one technical person ; three support staff, one of whom is bilingual; and one position that is a 75 term staff editor . Mr. Chairman: Proceeding then with

part 5. Post Secondary, Adult and Continuing Education . Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Yes, I have a copy of the letter. There is a personal note attached to it ·but the letter is dated October 27, 1988. "The Honourable Len Derkach, Minister of Education ," etc. "Dear Sir, I am writing on behalf of Flin Flon Teachers' Association to express "-perhaps the Minister has not received the letter but it was copied to Judy Balabas, president of MTS, the Superintendent of Schools in Flin Flon and to myself . So perhaps for some reason the mail has not come through, but I will make the appropriate amendments to this letter and forward it to the Minister for his information . Mr. Chairman: On

part 5. Post-Secondary , Adult and Continuing Education, (

c) Red River Community College:

(1) Salaries, $27,597 ,000-the Member for Sturgeon Creek . Mrs. Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): I have had probably more inquiries presented to me or concerns presented to me in the last six months revolving around various concerns with Red River Community College than with any other part of the education system . A lot of it is I do not know whether the term " abstract " is the right term or not, but it is very hard to put my finger on what the concerns are. I was told that administratively 2908

Tuesday, November 8, 1988 PACE is in a bit of a mess, that there are budgetary allocations that may not express the actual expen diture in one particular area, that if one part of the organization runs out of money that they just lift it from the other part. I am wondering if the Minister has also had concerns expressed to him with regard to the budgeting and the funding of PACE. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, no, I have not received any calls in the last six months with regard to individuals being concerned about budgetary items within PACE, and certainly I am not aware of any such calls to date. Mrs.

Yeo: Has the Minister had any concerns expressed to him about borrowing FY money between departments and then billing the departments back? Has any of this come to his attention? Mr. Derkach: No, Mr. Chairman. Mrs. Yeo: Has the Minister heard anything about ACCESS Programs, that there might be a cost overrun from one department to another? Mr. Derkach: No, Mr. Chairman, no such comments or phone calls have been brought to my attention. Mrs. Yeo: What kind of accountability is there from PACE to the Minister's department? What kind of com munic ation is ther e between PACE and the Minister's department? Mr.

Derkach: Mr. Chairman, there are several ways of making sure that the branch is accountable to the department and to myself as Minister. First of all, we have the internal audit process which goes on. I have an Assistant Deputy Minister who is respon sible for PACE. We also have the Provincial Auditor who does a thorough examination, and I think there has been a fairly respectable level of accountability to myself, as Minister, in terms of reporting as to what is going on. Recently we have had an internal audit of the ACCESS Programs, Mr.

Chairman, and I have not had any of the concerns that have been raised in the last question brought to my attention. Mrs. Yeo: Can the Minister tell me what academic credentials the ADM of this department has? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the Assistant Deputy Minister of PACE has a Bachelor of Arts from McGill Un iversity and is currently working on her Masters Degree from the Un iversity of Manitoba. Mrs. Yeo: Is interdepartmental exchanging of funding allowed? Is that something that is sort of an acceptable procedure? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Chairman, I really do not know what the Member means when she says "interdepart mental." Mrs. Yeo: Can the money be taken out of one budgeted allowance and put into another within a department? Mr. Derkach: Mr . Chairman, there are transf ers between such departments as Community Services and Education or Northern Affairs and Education in an appropriate manner but also there are, if you are talking about within branches of the department, there are transfers, allowable transfers, within branches of the department. Mrs.

Yeo: Can the Minister tell me whether the Canada Manpower-type of funding still exists at Red River Community College? Mr. Derkach: Yes, it does, Mr. Chairman. * (14 50) Mrs. Yeo: If there are so many spaces taken up by Canada Manpower and some are left, can they be filled in with other applicants? Is this allowed? Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr . Chairman, that is normal practice. Mrs. Yeo: I have had some concerns raised to me about one program in particul ar, the Telec ommunications Program , where I understand there are only 16 students in a class.

I am not sure whether that is the numb er that is currently enrolled, but it is my understanding that is the numb er that is usually permitted and that these seats are basically already filled or already spoken for because of either Jobs Strategy or Canada Manpo wer. Is this true? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, there are 16 students enrolled in the program. Eight are federal-sponsored students and eight are provincial-entr y students. Mrs.

Yeo: I have also had concerns raised by people who have been trying to apply for other programs, people within our own province who say that they apply and apply and are turned down because the seats are already filled. Is there some appeal mechanism? Is there some way that a student who really does wish to enter a particular program and continues to be turned down can appeal this process if they are, in fact, qualified or meet the qualifications? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Chairman, there are waiting lists in many of the programs that are offered at Red River and I think that the list that was distributed would show the wait lists that are present right now. In addition, it is the respo nsibil ity of the institution to train nu mbers of people that there is a market for in the job market, and certainly there is a matching that is attempted in terms of the programs that are offered . So, yes, there are wait lis ts and certainly the entry is on a first-come first-serve basis.

Certainly I have, myself, received several requests from students for reco nsideration that have been passed along to Red River or to PACE. Mr. Storie: On a point of indulgence, Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Chairman: We do not recognize points of indulg ence, but we will recog nize the Member for Flin Flon. Mr. Storie: Thank you. As long as you recog nize me, that is more important. 2909

Tuesdsy , November 8, 1988 The Minister handed out a sheet that outlined the current waiting status for a number of courses and along the top there are a number of acronyms. I am wondering, just so I could do some research while my colleague is asking questions, if I could have what those mean. What does preg mean? Mr. Derkach: Preregister ed. Mt. Storie: Oh, preregister ed, that makes more sense. Mr. Derkach: Okay, waiting list: PROC, in process; INCA, incomplete; REJP, rejected failure to pay fee; REJW, withdrawn; REJ, all other. Mr. Slorie: Those do not make sense. Mr. John Angus (St.

Norberl): So, taking the very first page, you have Business Accountan cy, the code, the date, then you have a waiting list of 30 people in that program. Is there anything on here that shows the capacity of the program, the total number of seats avai lable in that program are? Is there an in dication there on this sheet? Mr. Derkach: 68, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Angus: How do I know that from looking at this? Mr. Derkach: Where it says "Quota." Mr. Angus: I see, okay, thank you. Mr. Storie: One other question, the REJP is re jected, have not paid their fee. Does that mean that there is a fee up front?

If these individuals had paid the up front fee, would they be on the waiting list? Mt. Derkach: There are some programs that have a pre-regist ration fee in order that the seats be retained for that individual. Mr. Storie: One final question, how large is that fee? Mr. Derkach: Fees are a standard $50.00. Mr. Storie: The pre-registration fee is $50.00. Mr. Chairman: On .item (c)(1), shall the item pass?

Mrs. 'Mo: I think we were listening to the Minister say that the market directs where some of these seats go and I gather, for instance, if there are 16 seats in telecommunications, the idea is that there probably are only 16 jobs out there for new telecommunications prepared individuals. No? Then I would ask for clarification as to how the decision is made as to how many seats are allocated for a particular program. Mr. Derkach: There are several ways of determ ining, Mr. Chairman, what the market demand is.

One of them is thr.ough the advisory boards for each of these programs which meet regularly and give the direction as to the kind of market demand that is out there. Also, through Canada Employment, we gain sort of the overview of what the demand might be for individuals in a particular program.

But besides that aspect, there are also considerations of classroom size, the number of students you can put into a classroom, the equipment that is a1i ailable to teach that particular course, if it were in the field of cosmetology , for exam ple, the number of seats that you have in the particular classroom; if it is welding, the number of welders, whatever. So all of those are taken into consideration when the courses are structured and also determine the number of people who you can have in a program and will also reflect the number waiting, I guess, who want to take that program.

Mrs� Yeo: The number of students waiting and needed to fulfill the req uirements to become child care workers, I understand, is incredible. What efforts are being made to increase the number of seats available at our various communi ty colleges-and we are talking specifically I guess right now about Red River-for the training of child care workers? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, yes, we r�cognize the fact that there is a waiting list in the Child Care Training Program, certainly not more unusual than it is in some of the other programs but nevertheless there is a wait list.

We are looking at ways in which we could possibly provide in the future more training spaces. We also have another bit of a problem in the rural areas and that is that by expanding spaces, for exam ple, in some of our other areas, we do not have enough areas to put these people into to get their practicums. * (15 00) Mrs. Yeo: I under stand that the rural areas, there is some difficulty. Howev er; right now we are talking about Red River Community College which is an urban centre with many, many child care facilities in and around.

I also understand that there is a wait list of students who want to enter the program but also, even more important I think, is the fact that the day care facilities themselves are very anxious to have properly trained diploma child care workers to fill the spots that are available. There is a great need in the community for an increased number of prepared child care workers. I was rather surprised that in September there were not more seats available for training these people.

Certainly I hope that this is something that will be in place by at least September of 1989 because then it will be, I think, June of 1991 before these people are prepared to go out into the field. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, it is true that there is a waiting list and certainly there is a demand out there for trained child care workers. We are not going to deny that. But there are wait lis ts in many of the other programs and certainly we would like to accommodate more students. However , we cannot do it for this year. We are at the present time actively pursuing ways in which we can offer more training spaces.

However , 2910 I

Tuesday, November 8, 1988 that kind of process takes a while to develop. We have to ensure that we have not only the space but staff and programs to offer, places available to conduct practicums , and all of this organization takes some time . So we are working at that at the present time and , hopefully , in the future we will be able to offer at least another

section within the first year. At the present time, there are 142 who are on the waiting list at Red River. Mrs. Yeo: I did not realize the number was that high . Does Red River Community College have a toddler day care facility that they were intending to have? Has that been organized as yet? Mr. Derkach: At the present time , Red River Community College is attempting to raise some funds so that they can , in fact, have a toddler day care facility in the college . Mrs.

Yeo: There was a recommendation , I believe , that the college would adopt a proactive approach to affirmative action when filling all the vacancies . Has this , in fact, occurred? Is there a proactive approach to affirmative action? Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr. Chairman , there is a proactive attitude and process in place in terms of affirmative action . Mrs. Yeo: Can the Minister tell me if all positions within PACE are filled by competition? Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr. Chairman. There are however the contract positions which are somewhat different, but all existing SY positions are filled by competition. Mrs.

Yeo: Can the Minister explain what he means by ·•contract positions " ? Mr. Derkach: The major one, Mr. Chairman , is the evening school or the evening classes that are being conducted, or short-term kinds of courses that may be offered . Mrs. Yeo: Can the Minister tell me what sort of a competition there was for the Director of Distance Education and Technology? Mr. Derkach: There was no competition held for that position . That was a transfer within the department, along with the staff year. Mrs.

Yeo: So when the Minister said to me that for all positions, except for contact positions , all positions are filled by competition , this is one example where it was not by competition, where it was by appointment? Mr. Derkach: There there will be positions from time to time where we will fill from within or transfer from within the department but I would think that , if that is not possible or if we cannot do that, then all other positions would-our attitude is that we would certainly want to advertise it and have a competition for that . An Honourable Member: I think we are obliged to . Mrs.

Yeo: Are most candidates appointed on the sole basis of merit? Mr. Derkach: The short answer to that I guess is, yes, but the Civil Service Commission is certainly there to make sure that we , in fact , do comply with the regulations. Mrs. Yeo: Again, I have had some concerns raised by a number of people that this in fact does not happen . Not being closely involved , I cannot comment, but I thought this was part of the purpose of the Estimates, to get the Minister's opinion on some of these things .

I am glad to hear that the Minister believes that merit is the most important thing and that this is the main reason for appointments . Do all organizations that come under the umbrella of PACE have sexual harassment policy statements? Mr. Derkach: There is an internal policy being developed at the present time which would cover that area for the PACE Branch . Mrs. Yeo: Could the Minister tell me what Red River Community College is doing to introduce more programs designed specifically for women? What sort of action is being undertaken? Mr.

Derkach: There is now a department head with regard to women's issues, I guess , and through CJS certainly we are offering programs for women such as the pre-employment programs . Mrs. Yeo: Over the summer, just prior to the Session beginning, I received a few phone calls from individuals who were concerned because they had assumed that they had been hired by the community college to teach various courses but they had not had their teaching certificate or whatever it is that the Minister has to sign. The Minister did act fairly quickly after a short discussion .

Can the Minister outline to me what is the process whereby a teacher is hired? What sort of a process is under way before they can know if they definitely are on the payroll or not? What happens? •

(1510) Mr. Derkach: In all staffing, we want to ensure that there is some accountability for the position that is required and that in fact it does go through the appropriate channels. First of all, the staffing authorization would come through the college and then be channelled through the Assistant Deputy Minister responsible for community colleges . Then after that has been approved , it would go to the Deputy Minister and right now the Minister has responsibility to sign all staffing authorizations . So the final step would be the Minister's signature on the staffing authorization . Mrs.

Yeo: Just so that I understand the bureaucracy and now I see what is meant by red tape-the instructor goes to the college and is interviewed and is told that they have a position . But before they can go any further , 2911

Tuesday, November 8, 1988 it then goes to the ADM , then to the Deputy Minister and finally to the Minister for approval. Is that correct? Mr. Derkach: No, Mr. Chairman, that is incorrect . What happens is that before anybody can be interviewed, first of all , the college must get authorization from the Minister to go ahead and hire or be entitled to hire for that particular position . So the authorization entitles the college or the institution to go out and seek an individual for a particular position . Mrs.

Yeo: Again , because of my concern for the individuals who wanted to organize their lives and their careers and were sort of left on hold for a significant period of time before being informed that they actually had been accepted In the position-as a matter of fact, one individual told me that he in fact, without having the signature, had taught several of the classes because the classes had begun before he was actually informed that he was hired .

I will wait for Hansard and will read the Minister 's initial response , but I thought that he had said that before his signature is affixed to the document that it goes through the college, the ADM, the OM and then the Minister . It seems to me that with that kind of bureaucracy that It is understandable that an application or a document could be held up in somebody 's basket, particularly in the summer when people tend to go on holidays . If this is in fact what happened last summer , I hope that there will be steps taken so that it will be avoided happening again in the summer of '89. Mr.

Derkach: There are always situations where you are going to get a backlog of applications or authorizations or whatever the case may be. In my own particular case , I taught in a school for at least two months before I signed a contract. Sometimes that kind of a situation is not acceptable but certainly that happens . In this particular instance , I think we have embarked on what is called Market Driven Training . These are usually short courses that require some quick action on behalf of the college in terms of making sure that there is an individual in place to offer the program.

On the authority of the Assistant Deputy Minister , there in fact may be times when an individual does take a position before the final authority is given, but certainly that kind of message would be relayed to the Minister, that staffing authorization is on its way to be signed so that there is some communication between the Deputy Minister and the Minister and the Assistant Deputy Minister in those situations . I would have to be the first one to admit that our system is not perfect. We have done several things to try and speed the process up.

As a matter of fact, when the Member had brought this matter up in the House, we were in the process of trying to streamline it by marking the application forms that were for Market Driven Training to make sure that those received priority in t!3rms of attention , because we do get a host of them at once . So because they are especially marked , they are treated as urgent because those are the kinds of things where there is not a great deal of lead time . Mrs. Yeo: I have had a few concerns brought to my attention with regard to the Power Engineering course .

There were a couple of individuals who stated that they were not happy with the quality of the instruction they received from three of the four instructors in the program . Is the Minister aware of this , because I understand the department head of Power Engineering is aware of these problems , but I am wondering if the Minister is aware of these or the ADM or the Acting Director of Red River Community College . If so, what action is being taken to try and correct this problem? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Chairman , when you have a system as large as Red River, Keewatin or Assiniboine and if you put all three of them together, certainly there are instances when concerns of performance by teaching instructors does come to the attention of the Minister . When that happens, that is referred to the appropriate academic head or head of the department or the president or vice-president or the dean of the particular community college to investigate . I can indicate that I the situation the Member brings forth is, at the present ~i time, being reviewed and will be dealt with . 1' Mrs.

Yeo: So I gather from that comment that the Minister is aware of that concern . Okay. The bookstore at Red River Community College is certainly operating in maybe not too effective a way. Are the students at Red River Community College given access to browse within the bookstore? Is there an opportunity for them to move about and examine the books? Mr. Derkach: No, Mr. Chairman . Because of space difficulties or availability of space, that is not possible . Therefore , students are not allowed to browse around in the bookstore . Mrs.

Yeo: Why is it not allowed to be a money-making thing, thereby promotfng a variety of books rather than just textbooks and the documents that the teachers prepare , the notes that the teachers prepare? Mr. Derkach: At the present time, we are strictly trying to concentrate on the needs of the students in terms of the training programs that are available in the community college . It is a money-making proposition in that there is a 15 percent profit margin on the sale of the books. Mrs. Yeo: Can the Minister tell me the state of the Red River Community College Library?

There was some discussion about building a new library and I am wondering where that stands. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I think that announcement has been made in the past three or four elections . I am not quite sure how far back it goes . The drawings have not been completed for the LRC and I can tell the Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs . Yeo) that those drawings will be completed this year, so that then we can proceed toward the realization of the project at some point . Mrs. Yeo: Would the size and state of the current Red River Community College Library have something to 2912

Tuesday, November 8, 1988 do with complaints that I have received about poor organization and admin istrative procedures there? * (15 20) Mr. Derkach: I do not believe so, Mr. Chairman, but I really cannot answer that question. I think that is a question that only the Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo) could answer to herself. Mrs. Yeo: lt has been some years since I have been in the li brary at Red River Community College. Having taught there a few years ago, I have only been back, I think, once or twice since then.

I am new at this game and can only go by the complaints that are brought to my attent ion, and I was just bringing them to the attention of the Minister. Mr. Derkach: Thank you very much. Mrs. Yeo: Is there any thrust on the part of this particular governing Minister to promote perhaps a greater autonomy of the board of Red River Community College? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, that has certainly been something that has been talked about since I became Minister of Educa tion, and it is certainly an interesting concept.

I am not opposed to looking at that kind of a concept and will be exam ining it as we move along through the next few months. Mrs. Yeo: There is a Northern Nursing ·P rogram, I believe, that is provided through Red River Community College to help the critical shortage of trained nurses in northern Manitoba. Can the Minister tell me if this program is still in the plan, still is going to continue? Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr. Chairman, this program is ongoing. lt is the ACCESS Program that is del ivered through Red River Community College at Thompson. Mrs.

Yeo: Can the Minister tell me if there is any in tention to expand the services of Red River Community College into other regions of the province, the ACCESS Programs into other areas? I might add I am thinking more specificall y, I guess, about Eastman. Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr. Chairman. That list I think has been tabled with the information that was given today in terms of the programs that are avai lable in, for example, the Eastman Region. Certainly there are always demands from various regions to expand programs in those centres, particularly through the Canadian Jobs Strategy .

Certainly those are examined as they come in and then certainly if those can be provided, they will be. Mrs. Yeo: Is there difficu lty, Mr. Chairperson, in finding quality teachers, good teachers for these ACCESS Programs? Mr. Derkach: No, Mr. Chairman. There has been no unusual difficulty in trying to fill the positions that are available. Mrs. Yeo: I was just going to thank the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) for giving me such latitude. I am done right at the moment. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Mr.

Storie: A couple of questions, I guess, the Minister tabled a list of off-campus courses that are being offered . I guess I would like to know whether we could have, beside those, the numb er of students who are taking those courses. lt is not urgent. lt is not something I need tomorrow, just it would be nice to be able to attach them to the courses that are being offered . The other question that I was going to ask is, are these courses in the main given by people from these communities or are we having people travel ling from the community colleges? Mr.

Derkach: We will provide the num bers for the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie)-not today, we will have to do it tomorro w. I might add that in as many cases as we can, we try to get instructors from the local commun ities. If that is not possible, however, we have to go outside the community to get any instructors. So if you were to take a look at the general aspect of it, I guess it is kind of a mix. Mr. Storie: The other thing that strikes me is that we have a lot of-the numb er of communities that are actually touched by one of our community colleges is quite striking.

I think it is a tribute to the people who have pushed the concept of off-campus education and the right of people to have access locally to education opportunities. I guess the question I would ask though is, where does the impetus for a particular course come? lt seems to me that some of these make a lot of sense. You have agriculture courses in Pilot Mound, Ste.

Rose and Swan River, but it seems to me that, given the concern of all of us over literacy and the need for adult basic education, some of these communities, if not all of them, would be targets for some form of adult basic education effort, some upgrading effort . Maybe the answer is that there is no initiative on the part of the community to establish such a course.

I wondered whether the communit y colleges, particularly Red River in this instance, are making any effort or are prepared to make an effort to see those kinds of courses established, because it seems to me that they are not an expensive kind of course to deliv er. We certainly should be able to find the personnel to deliver them, and there is an actual, certainly a perceived need for delivering those kinds of courses. Mr. Derkach: We do not go out and try to initiate a specific course in a community for the sake of having a course in a communit y. The need comes from within the commun ity.

I guess it is based on the community itself and the kinds of things that the community sees that are important to it, together with the needs as are brought forth through the Canadian Jobs Strategy in some communities. So it is kind of a mix, I guess, if you take a look at the overall aspect . The community 2913

Tuesday, November 8, 1988 may identify a need within it, whether that be lit eracy or adult basic education or whatever the program might be, and we follow through from there. Mr.

Storie: lt is just, I guess, interesting that there are really relatively few adult basic education courses, even though there are a lot of communit ies and if it is the kind of problem where 25 percent of our population ! am not sure I believe that figure, but that is a figure that has been bandied about as accurate -t hen obviously it should be a need and it may be a question of whether the community colleges are talking to the right people in the commun ity. Certain ly, if you go to Pool Elevators and say, what kind of a course do you need around here, they are going to say we need Ag 1.

But perhaps if you went to the Friend ship Centre or some other local community group, you might get a different response. Just leave on the record that I am certain that it is an area where there is a need. Maybe it is a question of finding individuals to support it and promote it. lt seems to be something we should be doing. Moving to another area, the information- Mr. Chairman: The Honourable Minister. Mr. Storie: -if the Minister wants to respond to that, fu� can. Mr. Derkach: Yes, I would just like to respond to that in saying that I think the Member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie) is right in that people who have learning difficulties or low levels of literacy or would fall into the category of ill iteracy probably would not come forward in most instances. I guess this gives justification for the Task Force on Illit eracy, because it is a task force that is going to go out there and interview the kinds of individuals who may need literacy programs. Then, by the task force coming back to us, we will better be able to develop programs for those very communities that the Memb er for Flin Flon has pointed to. Mr.

Storie: The next area of concern, I guess, Is when I went through this list-un fortunately, this list was not set up so that it would be easy to do any kind of quick calculation manually but it appears as though, if you take out the numb er of students who are rejected from the system, anywhere between 60 percent and 70 percent of the students who indicate an interest for a specific course do not get that course. In some cases, if you just work from the numb ers that have applied and the num bers that were accepted ultima tely, certainly five or six to one are rejec ted.

I wonder whether that is a satisfactory state in the Minister's view. lt appears to me that the waiting lists are getting longer. We have a situation where in 1988- 89 at Red River alone there are 126 spaces that are being elimi nated. There are 6.5 staff years being eliminated. Yet we see what I perceive to be increasing student waiting lists, increasing time delays before people can get the courses that they want. I want to know what the Minister has planned to deal with this problem. * (15 30) Mr. Derkach: I guess there are many reasons why all students who apply for a particular course do not get accep ted.

I think we could probably list a whole host of rea sons, whether it is not the right quali fications, perhaps a student not understa nding what prer equisites are necessary for the program but simply thinking that this would be a good program for me to apply for. lt may be that, for example, as has been identified on the sheet here, that some do not pay the fee that is required. I guess we could go on and on and state many reasons why every student who applies for a program is not accep ted. Certain ly, the waiting lists are there. They are not something that has just occurred overnight.

I am sure that the Mem ber, when he was Minister of Education, had those kinds of waiting lists as well. We unde rstand that there is a greater demand today for this kind of training and we have to address it. I think there are various ways in which we can address some of the needs. They do not all have to be through students coming directly to the community colleges and I think some good work has been done in that regard, in that we have established such things as the Parkland Campus, for example.

We have established the regional offices or centres where students. can get training outside of the_ community college itself. I think Distance Education is an important way of delivering programs that do not necessa rily have to be delivered right within the college. So yes, we do have plans to address the problem in terms of trying to be more flexible and trying to deliver more programs into the communities so that students do -not -neces sarily have to travel into the centres to take their program ming. Mr.

Storie: The Minister kind of av oided the question of whether in fact the_ -waiting lists are increasing. lt would be_ interesting perhaps to do some sort of historical perspective on what has happened to the waiting lists, certainly since 1985 when CEIC announced its policy of reducing purchases by 40 percent. Certain ly, there have been other constraints on the community colleges, but I am wondering where the impact is being felt the most. That leads me to some questions about other services at the communi ty college. There is a Native Students' Resource Centre, and a Resource Centre for the Hand icapped.

I am wondering whether there has been any change in staffing, any change in services offered through those two offices. Mr. Derkach: In a previous question by the Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo), I had indicated yes, that we have hired an individual to provide services for the women's programs. We have also hired additional staff to accommodate student services, so there is an attempt to provide better and more timely services to students who have those needs. Mr. Storie: More specifical ly, how many counsellors are there to provide services to the Native Students' Resource Centre? 2914 I

Tuesday, November 8, 1988 Mr. Derkach: We have two Native counsellors who are avai lable to provide that service for Native students. Mr. Storie: What has been happening to the Native population in terms of- Mr. Derkach: Red River? Mr. Storie: Community College. Mr. Derkach: The Native student population at Red River has been increasi ng, and it is up to about 600 students at the present time. Mr. Storie: lt might be argued that as the student population in creases we should be seeing a correspon ding incr ease in the support services that are available if they are to succeed in the communi ty colleges. Mr.

Derkach: I guess that argument can be made at any time. I guess I could just say that Red River Community College has also another counsellor from another community college so we are up to three now. Mr. Storie: The Minister mentioned that they have someone in the wome n's program ming office, a coordinator personnel. I am wondering what specific courses that person, what specific services, if not courses, is that person responsible for.

A sort of question in the same vein, what has been the experience over the last year and what does Red River expect to have for courses, the pretrades training for women, the pretech nology for women, the women's oriented courses. What is the expectation for those courses in terms of num bers that are going to be accepted versus the numbers that were accepted over the last few years? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the Director of Wo men's Programs is- 1 guess the role of that particular individual is to attempt to get more women students into non-traditional courses.

Also, one of the other aspects of that role or that position is to work with the federal Government to seek ways in which we can attract more women students into those kinds of non traditional programs that are avai lable at the community college. Mr. Storie: I appreciate that would be her goal. I guess my question was, what has been the result? Are there in fact more pretrades training programs? Are there in fact more women taking training in the pretrades programs or more succe eding? Are there in fact more courses? Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, there has been an increase in the number of students who are taking apprenticeship programs and non-traditional type programs for women. Certain ly, the numb ers are still small but progress has been made and, hopefully, in the next while, in the next year or so, we will see a significant increase by-and it will be sort of as a result of a women's coordinator who can help to attract women into those particular programs. Mr. Storie: Another short question, is Red River Community College involved in any way in an office in the Inner City of Winnipeg? Mr.

Derkach: I guess there are two things that are happening. First of all, there are programs that are being delivered to the central core area of the city . There is not necessarily an office to do that. The programs that are being developed are being delivered . Second ly, in the CIIT Building, there is an office there and it is mainly concerned with the English as a Second Language programming. Mr. Storie: Two other short questions, No. 1, is Red River Community College developing or have they developed comple tely computer-managed learning modules? I know there was some work in that direction. Mr.

Derkach: Some of that has happened , Mr. Chairman, at the community college. There has also been some funding received from the federal Government to develop modularized programs at the college. * (1 540) Mr. Storie: But at this point, you cannot say that the community college has some stand-alone computer managed courses that individuals- Mr. Derkach: There are two areas that have been developed: one is the food services courses; and the other one is the related courses area has been modula rized. Mr.

Storie: Now the next question is, is there the prospect that these courses would be made available on floppy disk or disk drive that could be sent to Tadoule Lake, wherever , rural or northern Manitoba, to be used- Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I guess this is all lin ked in with the Distance Education model and therefore the technology at Distance Education is being set up so that we can deliver that kind of program ming through that method. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Mr.

Storie: One more question before I leave this, could the Minister indicate whether any of the things that Ray Newman said about Gary Polonsky at his going away are true? Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Mrs. Yeo: I was waiting for the Minister's response to that question. While the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) was asking his questions, I was quickly looking through some of these sheets that we re ceived. Under Nuclear Medicine on the sheet with the heading, Community College Course Reductions, it has 10 students.

I assume that means that the course has been reduced by 10 students and that the 12 students in this other package are currently registered which means they usually accept 22 students, and they have decreased it by 10. Is that how I would read that? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the Nuc lear Medicine Program, the first year of the program has been 2915

Tuesday , November 8, 1988 discontinued because there was no apparent demand in the province for those kinds of skills or for those kinds of individuals with that kind of training. For the demand that is out there, we are offering the second year program here in which we have 10 students enrolled. We are also beginning a process of discussing an interprovincial agreement with other provinces where we perhaps could purchase spaces to have the first year program deliv ered in other jurisdictions, because that· way it would be far more effective and efficient for us to have that first-year program delivered. Mrs.

Yeo: This second-year program is really just the seco nd year of a two-yea r program that began last year. Once this year is complete, it is my understa nding that there will no longer be any training for nuclear medicine technologists in Manitoba? Mr. Derkach: That is correct , Mr. Chairman, and that · is why we are embarking on the in te q:rrovi ncial agreement so that those students who do want to take that program can still have an opportunity to get it. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? 5.(cX 1) -p ass. Item 5.(cX2) Other Expenditures, $6,571 ,600.00. Mr.

Sterie: Just one other question and this may not be thE! r ight place to ask but seeing that there are staff froni Red River here, there is another item in the Estimates, item 5.(p), the Market Driven Trai ning, and there is $2 milli on set aside to look after that.- �(lnteijection)=- That is later. I know, but obviously that relates to or does it not relate to activities at Red River Community College, the community colleges? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I think we can address that at a later time when we get to that section. That is the

section that actually affects all three commun ity colleges rather than the one. We will have staff here. Mr. Storie: Because it does deal with Red River Community College, perhaps we could deal with the questions here or we can spread them out because each of the colleges may have their say. My question was, is this an allocation identified in the Estimates simply to give the colleges flexibility so they do not require Tre asury Board approval for each individual course that comes forward , so that individually they do not have to be authorized "Suppl ementary Supply be granted"?

Is that what the intent of this is? Mr. Derkach: That money is set aside to allow the community colleges some flexibility in terms of getting the Market Driven Tra ining Programs on stream without having to go through the cum bersome bureauc racy of getting approval for each and every penny that is spent. Mr. Storie: So that is a method to appease the Auditor and Treasury Board and to prevent all kinds of work being done by staff for preparation of indi vidual applications? Mr.

Derkach: lt is more of a practical approach to providing the kinds of programming in terms of Market Driven Training in a more responsive mann er. Certain ly, it is hoped that this will also be acc eptable to. the Provincial Auditor and that we are doing things aboveboard. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, I am not quarrelling with its appearance in the Estimates. If it does anything to facilitate the need for tile college to be flexible in terms of providing courses when courses are requested or appropriate, it is a good thing. I guess the question would be, are there specific Market Driven courses?

Are there courses out there that are going to be offered to individual private corpora tions, community groups, whatever, that we know now will be tapping into this $2 million from Red River? If there are, could we have a list of those courses? Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there are those kinds of programs and we can !)rovide that information and will provide that in for mation. Mr. Storie: To what extent has that $2 million allocation already been assigned? Mr. Derkach: I can say that most of the allocation has been used at this time. Mr.

Storie: So it is likely that we will see somewhere a Cabinet paper authorizing additional spending for Market Driven Tr aining then from the Minister of Education? Is that fair? Mr. Derkach: I guess that is speculation, Mr. Chairman. I would like to indicate in the response that all of these funds that have been set aside, although they will be used, are cost recovera ble. Mr. Storie: Yes, I reco gnize that. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Mr. Angus: Mr.

Chairper son, through you to the Minister in relation to the Market Driven Programs that have been indic ated, earlier you had mentioned programs that referred to a Jobs Fund. We are talking, at the current time, in relation to federal contributions and funding towards education. lt has occurred to me that there are programs that are being funded through monies that are going to the private sector that are duplications of those that are being offered at Red River Community Col lege.

I am thinking of computer-aided courses, things of that nature, skills, retraining programs that are offered by the federal Government.

Does the Minister have any plans or any desire to coordina te and bring together under his department these programs to elimi nate the redundancy and to elimina te the competitiveness, I guess, between programs? lt seems to me federal money that is going to the private sector to dupl icate programs that are being offered at Red River Community College, as an example, where we have already invested the capital and the training and have employed people to offer these programs is a misuse of taxpayers' money. I was hoping the Minister might be able to comment on that. 2916 I

Tuesday , November 8, 1988 * (1 550) Mr. Derkach: There is no such thing as Jobs Fund. I just wanted to correct the Member that there is not that. Through the Canadians Jobs Strategy though, the only place that we might find any dupl ication would be if spaces were being purcha sed from a different institution for a particular program. But within Red River Community College, there would be no such duplic ation of programs offered by the college, for example, for provincial students or for federal students. Mr. Angus: Excuse me for bringing up something that was clearly another program that you have disbanded.

I am not sure of the exact terminolo gy. But it does seem strange to me, Mr. Minister, that we, as taxpayers, find ourselves ofttimes fundin g through federal programs and/or Core Area Initiative Programs and/ or other available sources, programs that are being offered in the existing school system, whether it is Red River Communit y College or the South Wi nni peg Techn ical-Voc ational organization or any of those. I realize that some of those may not be in this particular

section of this set of Estimates, but the question is nonetheless relevant. lt seems to me that when we have built these institutes with taxpayers' money and we have funded the education of instructors or funded instructors to offer these programs, that it is a duplication. I was wondering if the Minister had any plans to bring these programs together and ensure that we are not duplicating the investment of. tax doll ars. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Chairman, inasmuch as possible, the department does monitor what kinds of programs are being purchased through the CJS, and certainly we are, I guess, always cognizant of the fact that there may be duplication. Where that happens, we want to elimin ate it as much as possible. But I guess there are instances where one can point to a particular program being offered through CJS in one area, and then another institution offering that program. But if those courses are filled, then we know that the demand is there. If there is a waiting list, then we know that you need those courses.

I guess I could point to, for example, the Child Care Training Program. We know that we have a waiting list there, so simply offering that program in another institution would not mean that it is neces sarily being duplicated. lt is just that it is another way of offering a program which is requir ed or which there is a demand . for. But inasmuch as possible, our department does monitor the programs that are offered through the Canadian Jobs Strategy to ensure that we do not get unnecessary duplication and unnecessary costs are not incurred. Mr.

Angus: Is it permissible to ask for the Minister to table a listing of those programs that have been offered, whereby the CJS funding has gone to the private sector with the amounts of money and the nu mb er of participants? I am asking the question, even if you cannot table it. I do not think it would be privileged information, and I do not neces sarily have to have the specifics of the information. But it may highlight those areas where the Minister should consider investing his limi ted resources to fulfil! needs in the area of that sort of education.

For instance, if you are finding that you are spending incredible amounts of mon�y through the Canadian Jobs Strategy Program for day care programs, it would indic ate to you that perhaps that money could better come into the community college area whereby you could expand that program specifically. Mr. Derkach: I know it is all taxpayer dollars whether it is federal or provincial but CJS is federal monies that come to the private sector.

We might know what courses, we could tell you what courses are being offered through CJS, but it would be very difficult for us to identify or to specifically name the amount of money or quantify the amount of money that is being spent in each of those programs. I reiterate that inasmuch as possible the department does monitor all CJS programs in the province, whether they are offered here at Red River, Assiniboine or Keewa tin or South Winnipeg Tech or wherever , to ensure that there is not unnecessary duplication of programs and unnec essary spending or waste of money. Mr. Angus: Mr.

Chairperson, through you to the Minister, I appreciate that you are monitoring, and I guess the question is somewhat baited. If you are monitoring them, what are you monitoring if you cannot tell me the extent of the invest ment? Can you tell me the num bers of participants? Can you tell me the different types of programs? I am not suggesting that the Minister has this information at his fingertips. If he would like to get a report together for the committee and make it available, I for one would be interested in that money.

I think the Minister has indic ated his interest and his desire to coordinate the investment of public funds and I think that it would be a responsible position for him to get that list, look at the needs that we already have within the province and find out if there is any federal money available to help us put those programs on in our areas where we can offer them at the technical schools and the colleges. (The Acting Chairman, Darren Praznik, in the Chair.) Mr.

Derkach: 1 . guess in a general sense I could say that we do very well in access ing federal funds for programming in this province, but there is n o way that, for example, we can get the information from anyone as to how much money the federal Government is offering to a particular industry through CJS to train those students. Our responsibility is to ensure that we have the programs available when we are required to, or when the request is made of us.

Also, the monitoring part of it is focussed on the quality of the programs that are being offered at the college to ensure that there is no unnecessary duplication, to ensure that we have appropriate staff in place, the pedagogical content of the program that is being offered . All of those things have to be taken into account when one does an evaluation of a course, no matter what it might be. 2917

TUesday, November 8, 19 88 I think it would be very difficult for us as a department to go to the federal Government and say, we want to know how much money you are giving to each industry so that we can better make a decision as to whether or not we are spending this money wisely . The industry buys the training from us and we provide the training. I just could add, Mr. Acting Chairman, if you do not mind, that they could buy the training from us but they could also buy it from other sourc es as well. Mr.

Angus: I appreciate what the Minister has said and I would hope that he would be able to pick up the telephone and phone the people at the Canadian Jobs Strategy and ask them to have lunch so that you can get your acts together in relation to the training that is going on. lt seems to me an elastic band that is being stretched both ways, that we have the technical colleges and the capital investments to provide the · facilities, we have the people who are qualified to offer ·th'e courses arid we are looking to provide that service, and then right across the street through the private sector the federal Gover n ment is putting money in, and it seems to me that we should be able to get those two things together. • (16 00) Mr, Acting Chairperson, the Minister has undertaken to. remove wherever possible the dupl ication of efforts, and I applaud that initiative and will leave it with him to sort of get that together.

I do not want to browbeat this particular issue to death, but the facts are there are ·a number of programs that a:rEf being offered on the street today by organizations which are being funded by federal dolla rs, which is an absolute dupiication of those programs that are being offered in the institutes that I have mentioned. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairperson, certainly we do meet with CEIC on a regular basis to discuss the CJS programs that are required and so forth.

But it would be very difficult for us, as a department I might say, to try and force the hand of the federal Government to say you can only buy training spaces from us at such and such a college, and I do not know how that would be rece ived. I do not imagine very well. lt is free enterprise in terms of where they buy their progr amming from, whether it is from us or from a private voca tional school.

But certainly, I guess I can tell the Member that I will take that matter under advisement and certainly try to ensure that we are not being waste ful in this province in the way that we duplicate programs, at least at the college level where we have some jurisdiction. Mr. Angus: A final word then, Mr. Acting Chairperson, through you to the Minister, we should either give up ours or ask them to contribute to ours.

So let us either turn it over to the free enterprise market and let them handle it and do it, and spend our mone y, the money we got and allocate it in a different or better fashion, or go to the federal Government and say stop funding those programs because we have already got those programs in place. I suspect, Mr. Minister, that is the type of coordination I am proposing that you investigate. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairman, I hear the Member loud and clear and what he is trying to say.

I would just like to say that the Canada-Manitoba Agreement will be renegotiated in the terms of looking at those kinds of issues. We will do that. But also I have to indic ate that in the Canadian Job Strategy all of the programs that we offer are cost recov erable, so I want . to make that very clear. If we offer market driven tra ining program through CJS, all the money that we put into it is cost recove rable to us. Mr. Angus: Let us see if I have got this straight, or let me ask you to explain that a bit further. What do you mean, cost recov erable? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Acting Chairman, I guess maybe the best way to explain it is to use an example. But if a company wants to have us .deliver a program for their employees, they Would come to us or to the community college and they would ask for the cost of delivering a program and the materials and that sort of thing. That kind of process would take place in that the community college would cost the program out and give them the cost of supplies and so forth. Then the company that was wanting the training would go to the federal Government with that proposal.

The federal Government would then , throllgh their arrangement with that company, supply the money for the training for that particular program at the commllnity college level. That would include materials, the tea ching, the cost of the instructor and any other costs that may be associated with the delivery of that program. Mr. Angus: That is exactly my point, Mr. Minister, through you, Mr.

Acting Chairperson, that if that money that is going into our resources to develop our resources and our program is being funneled off to another area where we are really splitting the amount of money we have got and it is probably being ineffect ually invested. If we took the lump of money that we are investing into those programs and put it in one area, either into the private sector and let them fulfil! those needs or into the technical schools, we could probably get a larger return on our investment.

Notwithstanding that, I am satisfied the Minister is going to be looking into the agreement and giving consideration to those things. Thank you. Mr. Derkach: I do not understand the last point that the Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Angus) made with regard to funnelling all the money into one particular area. We are, as a college I think, attempting to get as much of the Jobs Strategy training programs as we can. We have a facility there that can provide the training. Certainly the federal Government is aware of it.

But in that, we have to make sure that we do not give all of our training over to Canadian Jobs Strategy so that we have provincial entry students who do not qualif y for Canadian Jobs Strategy who can also take

part in those programs that are being offer ed. So there are some spaces left for provincial entry students in an these programs. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Praznik): Shall the item pass? 2918 I

Tuesday , November 8, 1988 Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): For the Minister, I was wondering if he might be able to help clarify something for myself. Over the past several years, the Red River College and student body has been expect ing their libr ary to be expanded. I was wanting to know if he might be able to inform me when the idea of the expansion was first brought to the Red River College and the current status of the expansion? Mr. Derkach: I guess the Member was not here when we addressed this issue, but we have already answered that in a previous question.

I had indicated for the Member's edifica tion that we have alloc ated some funds to complete the final stage of drawings and that will be comple ted by this fiscal year end. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Praznik): Shall the item pass? Mr. Lamoureux: My apologies for not being here when you first raised it. The question is, when was it actually first brought up, the expansi on? Mr. Derkach: I think the announcement, or the intention was announced back in 1984, certainly long before I was even in provincial politics. I think the year was 19 84.

When I took over the office of Minister of Education, there were .some plans done for the LRC but they were not complete. We have allocated some $1 75,000 for the completion of those plans by the end of the fiscal year. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Praznik): Shall the item pass? (Agreed) We now move onto Item No. 5. (c)

(3) Less: Recov erable from Other Appropriations $41 3,000.00. Shall the item pass? Mrs. Yeo: I would just like an explanation of this particular term if the Minister could just tell me what is meant by this. Mr. Derkach: This is money that is recovera ble from Community Services for training that is provided for such groups as disabled people. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Praznik): Shall the item pass? 5.(c)(2)-pass. We now move on to item 5.(

d) Assiniboine Community College:

(1) Salaries, $7, 1 23,300.00. Shall the item pass? Mrs. Yeo: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I notice that under Profes sional/T ech nical, the numb er of staff years is down by two but the dollar figure is up fairly significant ly. Could the Minister explain this discrepancy? * (16 10) Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairperson, there were two positions that were elimi nated , one being an instrumentation mechanic and the other one an autobody repai r instruct or, both instructors.

The reason they were elimina ted was that there was no demand in the marketplace and certain ly, in the other case of the autobody repair instruc tor, that is done through the Canadian Jobs Strat egy. So there is no need for the duplication. With regard to the increase in cost, that is as a result of course of the normal increases of the general salary in creases and the merit increases. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Praznik): 5.(d)(1) -pass. We now move on to item 5.(d)(2), Other Expenditures, $1,5 60,200.00. Shall the item pass? Mrs. Yeo: I have a question there about the decrease in Supplies and Services.

I am wondering how that was achieved and if the teachers at the community college are going to have to forfeit some of the supplies that they use. Mr. Derkach: The advice I was given was that they are bringing their own. Strike that from the record . Mr. Acting Chairperson, as I mentioned before with the elimina tion of the two programs, there are also decreased costs in terms of Suppli es and Services. That is kind of related in terms of supplies that are not required when you have fit programs. Mrs.

Yeo: Is there any problem with this elimina tion of the two programs or was there just not felt that there was a need to have the programs? Mr. Derkach: No, Mr. Acting Chairperson, there is no problem with the elimination of these programs because there was no demand in the marketplace. Mrs. Yeo: Can the Minister tell me if the fire college is incl uded in the programs that are offered at Assiniboine Community Col lege? Is this connected with KCC? Mr. Derkach: No, Mr. Acting Chairperson, that is under the Department of Labour. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Praznik): Shall the item pass? Mrs.

Yeo: One other question-well, maybe one, maybe more than one depen ding on the answer. When we discussed the in sufficient numbe rs of chil d-care seats at Red River Community College, the Minister in his response did say that there was difficulty in the rural area because of the lack of clinical, if ·you will, or practical spaces for the chil d-care workers who want to take the course. I think he was ref erring then to Assiniboine Community College.

I am wondering what is being done to address this shortfall in numb er of spaces, being that there is a need for increased numbers of child -care workers in the surrou nding communities around Brandon. Mr. Derkach: There is an attempt by the community college to work with more day care centres and to probably expand the area that they work in, in terms of getting more day care practicum spaces avai lable for their students. 2919 I

TUesday, November 8, 1988 Mrs. Yeo: Can the Minister tell me if there is a toddler care, a child care centre located within the community college? Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr. Acting Chairperson, there is a toddler day care program offered there, or a centre. Mrs. Yeo: Can the Minister tell me how many children, how many preschoolers are located . in that par. ticular spot? Mr. D.erkach: In an approximate way, Mr. Acting Chairperson, I would think there are about 25 or 30. Mr. Acting Chairman: Shall the item pass? Item 5.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures- pass; item 5.(d)(3)- pass. 'fie now move on to Item 5.(e)

(1) Keewat in Community Colleg E!: Salaries $4,725,600, shall the item P!=ISS? Mrs. Yeo: Is there any thought to havi11g an elected board of trustees for Keewat in Community College? Mr. Derkach: Mr . Ac ting Chai rpers on, I think I addressed this issue in the previous question that was asked about the aut onomy and the flexi bi lity of community colleges and my response is still the same, that s;�painly that is not an idea that I am opposed to and r will be looking at it very seriously over the next year. Mr. Storie: Mr.

Acting Chairman, befor e the President of KCC gets-away, I was not here and I wondered if the Minister had been asked the question about the future of the Parklands Campus, how it is proceed ing, the num bers of students who are currently attending the campus, whether there are plans to extend the facility? lt would be a shame if the president drove from Brandon and was not asked those important questions. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Praznik): First of all, I would just like to remind the Member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie) to wait until he is acknowledged by the Chair before he makes his remarks and, as well, the matter has been dealt with before by the comm ittee. Does the Honour able Minister wish to respond? Mr. Derkach: Yes, I do. Thank you, Mr . Ac ting Chairperson, I am happy to respond to that. We have 15 0 students registered at the Dau phin campus, Parklands Campus. There are five courses being offered right at the present time at the campus. lt is very, very well received in the area and certainly there is a lot of interest in the potential of expanding the programs that are being offered at the Parklands Campus.

So, in terms of interest on the part of the commun ity, Mr. Acting Chairperson, certainly no vested interest on my behalf. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Praznik): If we may return to the· item which we are presently revie wing, item 5.(e )

(1) Keew atin Community College: Salaries. Shall the item pass? Mrs. Yeo: There was a concern raised to me with regard to the rela tionship between education planning for Keew atin Community College and the Emplo yment Services and Economic Securities, that ES squared thing, if you un derstand my convoluted questions. Is there a relationship between the planning for education programs at Keewa tin Commu nit y College, a relationship between the communi ty college and Employment Services and Economic Security? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, at the present time there is training in the North being offered through Emplo yment Services, which is called the New Careers Program. They tend to be short of courses that are run in the northern areas of the province. * (1 620) Mrs. Yeo: If a program or plan, would it be the Education people who would loo!< after planning it or wo.uld it be th!'! Employment Services and Economic Security pepple wbo would actually do the curriculum or setting of courses? Mr. Derkach: If the Employment Services Department offered the program, then they would develop it as well.

But there are instances where we as a department can get involved in terms of devel oping a program. But in most instances those short-term programs thf!f are offered through that department are developed by that department as we l l. · Mrs. Yeo: That brings me to the statement of the individual who raised the complaint to me. Her comment was that education belongs in Education and that often when you get ES squared tinkering with setting courses or curriculum that they are not the education experts and that there are some difficulties that arise.

One of the things that was brought to my attention was that although the students who move through these programs write an exam, they may be quite successful in the exam , but · when they move out in to the employment are!l, the Department of Labour then tells them you have to write our exam all over again. I am wondering if the Minister knows anything about this, and if this allegation is true. Mr. Derkach: The Department of Labour only has apprenticeship type of examinations that they conduct. Bl}t with regard to the general comment that the Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs.

Yeo) makes, this is an approach that has been taken in the past. Certainly, there is a need perhaps in some ar

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-74
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 74.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	c9ac06a584a3c82d05e78614cba32606c91a2c15

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