Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, MAY 9, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 67

May 9, 1974 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape No. 15 71 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER: Order please! It is a distinct pleasure for me to welcome to the Speaker's Gallery today Dr. John MacPherson who is the President of Theatre Canada. His group is having various performances at the Arts and Culture Centre here in St. John's this week. On behalf of all honourable members I sincerely extend to you a very cordial welcome and trust that your visit here is most interesting. PETITIONS: ~- SPEAKER:- The honourable member for Trinity North. MR._ BRETT: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Random Island. The prayer of the petition is as follows: "Whereas the roads on Random Island are in a deplorable and dangerous condition,

whereas there are 262 registered vehicles on Random Island and many other vehicles use the roads," (co1TD11ercial vehicles I suppose we are talking about), "whereas there are 1,818 residents on Random Island and the population has increased by ten per cent in the past three years,

whereas there _are 415 children conveyed by bus to school over the island's roads, the residents of Random Island have to travel to Clarenville to recieve medical attention and 121 residents of Random Island are employed outside the island and

whereas Random Island has great potential as a tourist attraction, we the undersigned, being residents of Random Island in the District of Trinity North, respectfully petition the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to improve our roads as follows: All main roads on the island to be upgraded and paved and adequate ditches and drainage to be const~cted and the partly constructed road between Aspen Brook and Petley to be completed and paved. This work to be commenced as soon as possible and completed durin!!: 1974." In supporting the petition, Sir, I would like to reiterate some of the 5619

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1571 NM - 2 points in the prayer of the petition. The population of Random Island is increasing steadily. five years ago, first when I went to live in the area,I had very little hope for the island and I thought probably it would end up as one of these 1ending co11DDunities but I think the change came when a new school was built there, a very large modern school in the centre of the isle.nd. The trend seemed to change and the younger residents of the island are staying on, building new homes.

The fact that there are almost 2,000 people there with no pavement whatsoever, the roads are fairly straight but gravel, of course, but the fact that there are 2,000 people and most of them have to conmtute over the roads to work then certainly means that they are deserving of some almost immediate attention. About 400 children I think, it is in the prayer of the petition, bus daily to school. I believe a lot of people maybe in this House know that Random Island is a very beautiful place. There is a small private park there. It is very attractive actually, the island is.

You can see it as you drive along in towards Clarenville, very scenic, very beautiful and many people do go there each year and I think that with paved roads we will see more tourists going in. Sir, I strongly support the petition and I hope that the government in its • wisdom seesfit to start the upgrading this summer. I ask that the petition be tabled and referred to a department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for White Bay South. MR. WM. ROWE: For our part, Mr. Speaker, we strongly support the petition as well.

The honourable member did not mention whether our esteemed playwright, Michael Cook,had signed the petition. The Speaker may look it over and see. I rise to support the petition but I also mention for the benefit of our special guest in the Speaker's Gallery this afternoon that Mr. Cook does reside on the island and undoubtedly derives much of his inspiration for his very well received works from the island. Now the only thing, there is a slight conflict of interest, Perhaps if the roads were upgraded and paved Mr.

Cook may see fit to drive around more rather than staying at home and scribbling away and writing his - AN HON. MEMBER: That will destroy his creative impulse. 5620

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 15 71 NM - 3 MR. WM. ROWE: Yes, that is right. He might become a vagabond, driving around on the beautifully paved roads if the government accedes to the honourable member's request. But aside from that possible conflict of interest, Sir, on the part of most Newfoundlanders we have no hesitation at all in supporting the petition. I roRe really to make mention of the fact that Mr. Cook does live there and perhaps our guest at some point might get an opportunity to drive out there, see the road first hand, and undoubtedly we will have his support as well,and perhaps visit Mr.

Cook and have a chat with him. We support it wholeheartedly, Mr. Chairman. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Port au Port. MR, F. STAGG: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition from 311 adults in the two communities of Mainland and Three Rock Cove on the Port au Port Peninsula. These are two connnunities which have been rescued from a fate that they had been assigned some years ago. They were sending connnunities under the resettlement programme. They are now no longer sending connnunities and I think that they are going to survive.

The prayer of the peition is that the road leading from these two communities to the Community of Lourdes be upgraded so that the school bus and ordinary passenger traffic can traverse the road safely at all times during the year. There were a number of times this winter when that road was practically impassable, on a couple of occasions it was impassable,brought about by inadequate drainage, thawing conditions which gave rise to a build up of ice on the road ~,hen the ~eather turned cold. This petition is a modest request. It is a request merely that the road be aade passable at all times during the year.

Sometime ago this matter was brought to the attention of the Minister of Highways and while I am under an obligation to present the pet~tion.I do have a letter from him a couple of days ago indicating that these particularly dreadful conditions are going to be alleviated this year and I certainly hope that by the end of my tenure that road will not only be upgraded ~621

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1571 NM - 4 but will be paved as well. So it gives me great pleasure to support this petition and I ask that it be received and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Labrador North. MR. M. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House do support the petition that was presented by the member for Port au Port on behalf of the residents of Mainland and Three Rock Cove, not asking very much, asking to have the road made passable, which is indeed a very small request, Mr. Speaker.

Seeing that the honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications is in his seat, I trust that he will pay particular attention to the modest plea, I should think, of the member for Port au Port. He presented the petition very well and in a very modest fashion as the people of Mainland and Three Rock Cove had presented the prayer of their petition. They were only asking to have the road made passable. So I suggest that the minister should maybe go a little tiit further, Mr. Speaker, and see that the road is upgraded and paved as indeed all roads in the province should be.

While he is considering this particular petition I trust that he will maybe take into consideration the petition from the residents of Northwest River to have the road paved and upgraded from Northwest River to Goose Bay. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for St. George's. MR. A. DUNPHY: Mr, Speaker, I too would like to support this petition from the people of Mainland and Three Rock Cove. It was only the day before yesterday I had the pleasure of going into the honourable member's district (I assure you I had other interests.)and noticed the condition of the roads at that particular time.

It reminded me of a series of volcanoes errupting. Very, very, 11ery bad( MR. STAGG: That was the good part. MR. DUNPHY: That was the bad part of it. I am happy to report that the people of that area are all busily engaged in the lobster fishery, although the conditions are not that good there at this particular time however. tiG22

Hay 9, 1974 Tape No. 1571 NM - 5 also in the area a lot of sawmills, children are attending school etc. Sir •, they are not asking for very much and they are certainly making a contribution to the country as a whole and I think they deserve the upgrading of that road. It should not continue any longer so I support the petition so ably presented by my friend and colleague, the member from Port au Port. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Fogo. MR. E. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, right I direct a question to the honourable Minister of Fisheries? Has he any plan to send anyone out to St.

George's Area where seventy-five per cent of the lobster gear has been destroyed by storms? If so, will compensation be paid? If so, how soon? MR. NEARY: A good question. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Fisheries. HON. H. COLLINS, Minister of Fisheries: Mr. Speaker, it is only this past couple of days that the storm occurred and we have . gotten word of this. It is being looked into by federal field workers and also by our own field workers in that area. Until the whole situation has been assessed,! cannot say what might and might not be done. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Municipal Affairs could tell the House what his government has against the city council down there that he will not grant them a meeting. They are out now publicly criticizing the government for not granting a mee~ing they requested. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. BON. H.R.V. EARLE, Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing: I might say, Mr. Speaker, that I have not refused the City touncil of St. John's or any other city council permission for a meeting with me.

As a 1118.tter of fact, during the past month I h11.ve met twice with the Mayor of St. John's and officials and it is only three days ago that we had a very productive meeting. I do not know where the newspapers gat their information or how it came about but we have had several meetings. 5G23

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 15 71 NM - 6 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister could tell the House if the city council has requested a meeting with the Premier and the Cabinet and has been pawned off until the House closes? MR. EARLE: I have no idea, Mr. Speaker. If they have requested such a meeting there was no indication of it when I spoke to Her Worship. They have not approached me to get in touch with the Premier on any occasion for such a meeting so I know nothing of it. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Labrador North. 'MR. M. WOODWARD: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to present a question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. I wonder if the minister could inform the House what action his department has taken on the transfer of land, the military reserve land in Goose Bay, to the new municipality. We have a joint Community of Goose Bay - Happy Valley but the land in the Goose Bay Area has not been transferred from the military reserve to Crown lands or indeed to the province.

I was wondering what action his department is taking in this respect because a number of persons have made application to build houses and to expand the community but they cannot do anything until the land is transferred? ~- SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, MR. EARLE: As I understand it, Mr. Speaker, the procesg is now in motion for this transfer but I am not exactly sure of the exact status, where it is, member. I will check on that and get the answer for the honourable MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Justice, the Deputy Premier, could inform the House if the oil refinery at Come By Chance is producing jet fuel at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: That is a question that could very well be placed on the Order Paper. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister could inform the House if there is a U.S. Armed Forces tanker at Come By Chance at the present time loading jet fuel to be exported out of Canada? HON. T. A. HICKMAN, Minister of Justice: Mr. Speaker, all I know of that !jG24

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1571 NM - 7 is that I heard over the CBC last night that there was indeed a ship of the US Navy at the dock in Come By Chance. I have no idea what she is doing there and I would assume that the Newfoundland Refinin~ Company Limited is certainly under no obligation to advise government of the coming and going of ships. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is the minister aware that the oil refinery at Come By Chance is under an obligation to the Government of Canada to keep the jet fuel within the boundaries of Canada if possible? Is the minister aware of that? MR.

HICKMAN: I heard a statement by the honourable-Donald MacDonald indicating that he had conversations with someone in that company during which he expressed the hope that as much jet fuel as possible would remain in Canada. I would asswne that under existing federal regulations that if they do not want the jet fuel to be exported they simply refuse to grant a licence and if they do it cannot be exported. MR. NEARY: Supplementary question. Sir, would the minister undertake to find out if the oil refinery at Come By Chance does actually have an export permit to send jet fuel outside of Canada?

Could he get it before the day is over? MR. HICKMAN: No, I will not, MR. NEARY: All it takes is a phone call. MR.. HICKMAN: They may tell me to mind my own business. MR. NEARY: What? MR. HICKMAN: I would probably be told to mind my own business if I telephoned. MR. SPEAKER: Order please: The honourable member for Labrador North. MR. WOODWARD: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Industrial Development and the Minister of Finance are away, out of the province, I would like to ask the Deputy Premier of the Province, the Minister of Justice, if he can tell the Rouse if the Gypsum people have cancelled their chartered contracts with Labrador Linerboard for chartering the ~o bulk carriers to Goose Bay this year1 I understand this morning there are 5625

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1571 NM - 8 rlllllours that they have cancelled their charter for the two bulk carriers and now the Labrador Linerboard is without vessels to transport the wood from Goose Bay into Stephenville. MR. HICKMAN: I am not in a position to answer that question. I have not heard it before - MR. WOODWARD: Could he check and find out if it is true? MR.

HICKMAN: It was two days ago the honourable Minister of Finance indicated to this House that a firm charter party had been signed and that pursuant to the terms of that charter party the boats would be operating between Stephenville and Goose when navigation opened. MR. WOODWARD: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker, I understand from reliable sources this morning that the case is that one ship has been withdrawn from that party and maybe both of the bulk carriers will be withdrawn from the charter party with the Gypsum people. Maybe the minister can look into it and see if there is indeed any evidence that that is true.

HR. HICKMAN: I will. MR. NEARY: Mr . Speaker, the Minister of Transportation and Communications seems to be terribly concerned about a question I put to his colleague . Perhaps the ~inister has some information on this jet fuel at Come By Chance. Would the minister care to give the House the information? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transporation and Communications. HON. T. V. HICKEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I indicated to the honourable member that as far as we are concerned and according to the information given us, Mr.

Shaheen or his company is under no obligation to keep any jet fuel or any other product at this particular time in the province or in the country. He indicated to us that during the winter Mr. MacDonald did ask him to make available,within Canada, fuel supplies in terms of fuel oil and so on. If the honourable member be Lnterested in the jet fuel problem at Gander,! can tell him that there have been a number of meetings held with various people involved,with TOPS, Shell Oil and Mr. Shaheen and his officials. There is another meeting being planned. MR. WM.

ROWE: Before Orders of the Day are called, Sir, I would like to 5623

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1571 NM - 9 direct a question to the Minister of Ju.atice. in view of the - if one can believe the news reports - in view of the public concern ov1;1r the sentencing practices of Magistrate Oldford in Grand Falls there has been some C01'!Plaint fro• the Ch811lber of Commerce and I believe there are some petitions being circulated that his sen·tencing is too lenien~ In view of that public concern, Sir, would 1he Minister of Just;ice now tell us whether if he had his time back he would have reappointed Magistrate Oldford under those very suspicious circumstances under which he did so? 5627 •-

May 9, 1974 Tape no. 1572 Page 1 - MW MR. W. N. ROWE: He is not going to answer it. MR. SPEAKER: The question could be placed on the Order Paper. Maybe the Chair could submit that that is not a proper question. It could be placed on the Order Paper. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my honourable colleague just reminded me of a question involving a magistrate.

I know it is my colleague's jurisdiction but does the minister intend to do anything about the ?Ublic outcry in the Placentia Area about the magistrate living on the American Base because the minister's department has not provided a magistrate with adequate housing,off the base for the magistrate? Does the minister intend to do anything about this? MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I find that a very repugnant question. The honourable gentleman from Bell Island is quite aware that there is no public outcry in the Placentia Area concerning the magistrate, who is a very excellent magistrate.

The simple fact is that when the magistrate was transferred to Placentia,about one year and one-half ago, it was found that the old magistrate's house that had been built in Placentia (I was going to say when the French occupied it but shortly thereafter) was really in need of very substantial repairs and the decision was to build a new house. No accommodation could be found for the magistrate in the Town of Placentia during the construction of a new house. Through the very good offices of the American Consul General, accommodation was provided on the base. MR. NEARY: When will the new house be ready? MR.

HICKMAN: The tenders were called approximately eighteen months ago and I understand that the house will be ready for occupancy about June. It is a very modest three-bedroom house. I am speaking from memory now. Tenders did have to be called on three occasions before anyone would bid. l"·'."2H ;J t, ..

May 9 • 1974 Tape no. 1572 Page 2 Mr. Speaker, I want to reassure this House that we have a very excellent magistrate in the Placentia Area who has the respect of the people he serves. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to set the record straight. This was not a criticism of the magistrate, it was a criticism of the minister's department for not providing housing for the magistrate. That was my criticism. He is a fine magistrate. I agree with the minister. I certainly hope it will not be misunderstood. My question was a pretty fair question. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, before we get to Orders of the Day, I move the House, when it rises today, stand adjourned until ten o'clock tomorrow morning, Friday, May 10. MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that the House when it rise today adjourn until tomorrow Friday at ten o'clock. Those in favour "aye," contrary, "nay," carried. On motion that the House go into Co111111ittee of Supply Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): For the information of honourable gentlemen, we now have sixteen hours and fifteen minutes remaining of the seventy­ five hours allocated for the consideration of estimates.

We are now dealing with Head V - Manpower and Industrial Relations, 501-01. MR. J. ROUSSEAU (Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations) : Mr. Chairman; I do not have a long opening statement. A week ago today was my first anniversary, one year in that department,and I think people are pretty aware of the events in the province during the past year. In the hope of expediency, I have some facts and figures available if honourable gentlemen want them or my views on policy if they want them.

I certainly do not intend to hold up the proceedings in the event that many of my honounable colleagues are clawing to get up and ti629

May 9, 1974 Tape no. 1572 Page 3 have an opportunity to defend their estimates and I would not want to disappoint them. If honourable members across have any questions of a specific nature or of a policy nature, I certainly would be very pleased to reply to them. Certainly for any member of the committee, if they so wish, to offer any constructive advice on labour relations in the province, they would be more than welcome. Nobody is an expert in any field, Certainly the combined views of everybody in the province is solicited.

Perhaps hopefully some day in the near future we will be able to come up with some sort of a formula that may result in less strikes, strikes when they are necessary,and I guess a strike occurs always for some reason. So that we can provide for better relations between labour and management I welcome the views of members of the committee and any constructive advice or criticism they have certainly would be welcome. I will leave it there and take it from there when I have some questions on it. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I must say that I thought that the minister would go into a little more detail in his introductory remarks in view of the fact that last year we had one of the roughest years, I suppose, in Newfoundland's history in labour manage111ent, confrontation, strikes. both illegal and legal. There is every indication, Sir, that this year is going to be equally as bad a year as last year. I might say, Sir, at the outset,that last year I felt sorry for the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. The minister came into that job.as he indicated a few moments ago,just a little over a year ago.

I must say, Sir, that I find the minister to be a very tenacious gentleman, not afraid to get in the middle of disputes. Whether the situation is a hopeless one or not, the minister, as far as I can see, has not hesitated to get himself involved , to get into the middle of these disputes. I do not know what degree of success the minister has had in resolving

May 9, 1974 Tape no. 1572 Page 4 some of these confrontations. I would say that his involvement, his personal involvement, the involvement of his office in one or two instances have managed to get the disputes straightened out and get the parties back to the bargaining table and resolve the disputes. In that sense, Sir, I would say that the minister has done a fair job. AB a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, I would say probably that minister is one of the few honourable gentlemen on the government benches that we on this side of the House have any regard for whatsoever.

The minister has not made too many new innovations in the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations. He has managed to maintain the status quo. We laid a pretty fair foundation there. I was (Acting) Minister of Labour,as the connnittee probably knows,for about a year, I guess. While I was a:Lnister I did not get an opportunity to make too many reforms in that department. The minister has managed,to a large degree. I guess, to just maintain the status quo. With the machinery that the minister has at his disposal, as I indicated a few moments ago, I think he has done a fair job.

We like the minister on this side of the connnittee,so we do not intend to give him a rough time on his esti1aates. Mr. Chairman, as a matter of fact after my few remarks we probably can get into the item by item analysis (I do not know if any of my colleagues would care to say anything. They are quite free to do so) of the minister's department and maybe today we can get two or three or four departmental estimates approved. Then we can get on to some of the major departments. I would not consider this to be one of the big spenders of government but it is an :lmportant department of government, Mr. Chairman.

There are two or three things that I would like to draw to the minister's attention and it will only take me ten or fifteen minutes, so members can relax and enjoy themselves. 5631

May 9, 1974 Tape no. 1572 Page First of all, Sir, I want to bring up the matter of the chaos that was created a year ago on the government's own labour front and the advice that we gave the Hon. Premier at that 5 time to dump the Minister of Finance in all matters dealing with personnel relations because,in our opinion, in last year's estimates the threatening tone of the Minister of Finance's remarks in the budget certainly set the stage, Sir, for difficulties, for resentment and chaos on the government's own labour front. I would sublllit, Mr.

Chairman, that this was probably the main reason for all the difficulties that the government encountered last year in dealing with employees in the civil service. The only language that the Minister of Finance knew Sir, was that in the so-called negotiations, "This is our last offer." Do you remember, Mr. Chairman? I am sure all honourable members of the com- mittee will recall the Minister of Finance stating time and time again, both inside and outside of this committee,that this is my last offer. Then it turned out not to be the last offer, Mr. Chairman.

The minister completely lost his credibility every time he made this statement. The Hon. Premier stepped in and whipped the rug right out from under his feet. In view of the fact that there are a number of contract negotiations coming up in the public service, Sir, in the next few months, I would suggest to the Hon. Premier (Unfortunately, the Premier is not in his seat today) that he forget all this foolish in-fighting between the various groups and the Minister of Finance and not allow the Minister of Finance to have anything more to do with negotiations of employees in the public service, Sir.

He is a bad influence and he should not be allowed, he should be kept in the backroom, Sir, looking at his law books and his account books and not be out in front where he has to deal with people because that minister has no feeling whatsoever, no experience in labour management negotiations, no feeling at all for people, just cold-blooded. If he should be allowed to get back into these negotiations again, all he is going to do is rock the boat and cause an awful lot of headaches in this province.

May 9, 1974 Tape no. 1572 Page 6 A lot of the public service groups are now attempting to reopen their contracts. They want to be compensated for the cost of living, Sir. I think we have already made our position clear on that. We agree that the government should review all the agreements that have been signed and add a cost of living clause to the agreements. These employees, some 27,000 I think, at the moment are certainly entitled to aak to have their contracts renegotiated.

There is already a precedent for that down in Labrador City, where the Iron, Ore Company of Canada, with the help of the honourable minister, I understand - MR. MARSH.ALL: Point of order, Mr. Chairman. We have heard this particular agument over and over again, It is repetitious. It is irrelevant to this heading. There are only about sixteen hours left, less than an hour a department left . I am just trying to urge more relevancy on the part of the irrelevant opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, that point of order is just a foolish notion again of the nasty Minister without Portfolio.

It is not a serious point of order, Sir. It is lack of knowledge, Sir, of what we are talking about under this head. We are talking about the minister's salary,which gives us an opportunity, Sir, to have a wide-ranging debate on all matters pertaining to labour. Sir. I would say that I am in order. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): Order please! Both honourable members are correct. The Minister without Portfolio is quite correct when he says that the Member for Bell Island cannot delve into the irrelevant.

The Member for Bell Island is quite correct in saying that in discussing the minister's salary debate can be wide-ranging. Somewhere in between the Chairman must assume a position, At this point, I believe that the member may have been treading on the line as it were between relevance and irrelevance and he can be assured that the Chairman and undoubtedly honourable members to my left will be making sure that he does not go over that line,

May 9, 1974 Tape no, 1572 Page 7 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, - MR. NEARY: Do not be delaying the committee. MR. MARSHALL: All this does is prove the adage that not even God can help those who do not want to help themselves. MR. W, N. ROWE: Point of order, Sir. • I mean is Your Honour seriously (I am very serious. I notice that Your Honour and the House Leader share knowing grins from time to time) going to permit this "honourable gentlemen" to rise on any occasion when no debate is allowed, when no point of order is referred to and to talk about all kinds of things that he might have on his mind.

On that point of order, Sir, I would like a ruling because he has done it about fifty times in the past week or so, MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr, Stagg): Maybe honourable gentlemen want the Chairman to stay on his feet for the rest of the afternoon. However, any honourable member has the right at any time to rise on a point of order. After hearing it, the Chair will endeavour to give a ruling. The last time the House Leader rose it was for all of ten seconds which I do not consider to be a great waste of time.

Whether the point on which he rose did escape the Chair; however, I am not sure it was a point of order or whatever or supplementary to a point of order. I would suggest to all honourable members that when they do rise,to preface their remarks with the point on which they are rising. I do not believe at that time the Hon. House Leader made his intentions known as to why he was risinr. In that respect the Hon. Member for White Bay South is quite correct. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I hope that time will not be deducted from the time that we have left, Sir, that the Minister without Portfolio just wasted.

It would seem to me, Mr. Chairman, that we are going to have to give serious consideration in the future to implementing new ideas and new innovations in the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations if we are going to cope with all the strikes that are taking place in this province. Asthe months and years go by, each year the general 5634

May 9, 1974 Tape no. 1572 Page 8 public, Mr. Chairman, seem to be threatened by more and more serious confrontations, on the one hand between stubborn management and on the other hand between unyielding groups in the trade union movement. Mr. Chairman, what concerns me about these strikes is that so many of these strikes are wildcat strikes, not only here in Newfoundland but you find the same thing happening right across Canada on the national scene. Most of these strikes, Mr.

Chairman, in my opinion, are unnecessary and are caused 11&inly by trivial misunderstanding and lack of communications between 11181lagement and workers.

I am sure that the minister, when he rises to make a few comments on my remarks, will tell us • I know I have had some experience in the trade union movement myself and I was (Acting) Minister of Labour for a year and I am sure the minister will agree with me that when one is in that department, one never ceases to be amazed at the trivial things,the little things that will set off a chain reaction that will cause a union to go out on strike, We have to find a way, Sir, in ray opinion,to cope with this; Mr.

Chairman, in England . they have tried out or they have been functioning for a number of years, the Industrial Relations Courts. I doubt very much if this is the cure, if this is the answer to all our problems in Canada or in Newfoundland. At least, I think we should give it a try, Mr. Chairman, I think we should consider now, although I saw an item in the paper the other day where I think they are attempting to do away with the Industrial Relations Courts in Great Britain. There are powerful arguments for maintaining these Industrial Relations Courts, Sir.

I do not think for one moment that they are going to do away with them in England. Too often, Mr. Chairman, in my opinion, 5635

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1573 NM - 1 we get neonle involved in labour management disputes who are inexperienced in these matters and we still have management using the old technique of going down to the court and getting and injunction. Now I know the minister will get up and argue that the ex parte injunction was done away with last year but only for legal strikes, not for illegal strikes. The minister just nodded yes that is so, that mana,ement are still using the courts. Sir, they are going down at the drop of a hat sometimes, to get a court injunction ordering the workers back to work. Mr.

Chairman, it was my opinion that the administration was going to do away with court injunction altogether. But they only went halfwav. Sir. They only took the infant step. They did not go all the way. They just did away with court injunctions in illegal strikes. I think the minister should consider doing away with court injunctions altogether. Because what is happening, Sir, you are getting judges and you are getting precedent-ridden lawyers involved in labour management disputes, using outmoded methods to try to settle these disputes.

I think, Sir, that the setting up of an industrial relations court would do away with these troublesome injunctions by the civil courts and provide both labour and management a recourse to a more enlightened procedure whenever a matter goes beyond the scope of collective bargaining or where a grievance arises or when any other situation creps up where judgement, Mr. Chairman, common sense, sound judgement, is necessary rather than jurisprudence.

Sir, when I threw this suggestion out some time ago I started to think then, where would you get people to go on the bench if you could not use the precedent-ridden lawyers and the inexperienced people, the people who have no expertise in this field? I said to myself, where would you get a good man? Then, Sir, all of a sudden it dawned on me. The ~ember for St. John's South I think would be an excellent man to sit on the bench of an industrial relations court in this province. The member has the experience, Sir.

I think he would be pretty fair and impartial and I am sure the member will admit that he has gained a tremendous amount of 5633

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1573 NM - 2 knowledge over the last few years because of his involvement with various organizations like the Police Brotherhood, his aesociations with I think the Nurses Association and a number of other organizations, Sir. I think the member is a pretty fair minded person and would be ideal in my opinion for the bench. MR. FELLS: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Chairman, the point that I am trying to make here is that we do have men in this province, Sir, who are quite capable of being appointed to the bench, if that is what you call it, of an industrial relations court.

I think it is badly needed in this province, Sir, and I think we need it not only on the provincial level but we need it on a national level. Common sense is what is needed, Sir. Never mind going down in court and arguing on technicalities or precedents or getting peopi~ involved who have no experience, no exposure to the labour movement, never had to go out in the work-a-day world, Sir, and earn a living for themselves,trying to settle a dispute between management on the one hand and labour on the other. I would like for the minister to give that very serious consideration.

Perhaps the minister has already done some research on it and he could tell us when he stands to comment on what I am saying here. I was disappointed in the minister's earlier remarks that he did not make some reference to the unemployment in this province at the present time because Manpower Training and Industrial Relations would certainly indicate that the minister's department is heavily involved in training and retraining and in unemployment generally.

We know, Sir, and we do not have to go over it again, we know that the unemployment figures in Newfoundland are up substantially over what they were a year ago. I believe unemployment figures are up around ~ineteen per cent. We do not have the figures for April yet but they should come out probably the early part of next w~ek. But this shows, Sir, in my opinion, the complete ineptness of the Moores Administration to provide employment for the people of this province. 5637

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1573 NM' - 3 In every other province of Canada, Mr. Chairman, we are told that the unemployment fi~ure is better at the present time than for the same period last vear. But here in Newfoundland, Sir, despite all the talk about job creation, about rural development, corporations and motivating welfare recipients that we have heard so much about, Sir, the jobs just do not exist. We are right down now at the bottom of the list, Sir, I think that their last figure was 27,000 Newfoundlanders unemployed.

I would like to hear from the minister to find out what his department intends to do about that. I think this should be the number one priority in this province at the present time, Sir, record unemployment and the cost of living, I would say, Sir, the best thing that this administration could do is to roll up their sleeves and get down to business and see if they cannot junk their planning and priorities committees and all the other pass .. the-buck excuses that they have and either come to grips with this problem of unemployment or go down to the Lieutenant~Governor and pass in their resignation.

It is just as simple as that, Sir. I wish the Premier were here in the House today, I had a few choice remarks in this connection, Sir, but the minister should outline what his administration intend to do about the high unemployment in this province. If the administration cannot cope, Sir, then the minister should admit the administration's inability to cope. This should be done pretty soon, Sir, because we are Just getting in now to the season when Newfoundlanders are looking forward to going to w9rk on construction and as far as I can see, Mr. Chairman, there i~ nothing on the drawing board.

There are no big projects. The second oil refinery is not getting off the ~round. It does not look like there is going to be any work worth while on the Lower Churchill this year. There is nothing on the drawing board. There is nothing for Newfoundlanders to look forward to. At least when Joey was here, Sir, the people of Newfoundland always had something to look forward to, ah~ays. There was always a project on the go, So perhaps the minister has alternative plans for the unemployed. I do not know. They are not going to find work in the construction industry 5638

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1573 NM - 4 this year, at least not in heavy construction. I heard the other day that housing starts are going to be up this year, maybe a handful of people will find jobs in this kind of construction, Sir, light construction, but our ~eople are looking forward, Mr. Chairman, to going to work on construction projects like the Upper Churchill, the development of the Lower Churchill, the oil refinery and projects like the Linerboard Mill and this sort of thing,but it is just not there.

So I do not know if our people have given up in despair or not, Sir, but I would like to hear the minister anyway give us some indication of what plans the administratinn have for coping with the unemployment problem. The minister did not tell us about the international conference that the Premier announced I think it was about a year and a half ago, almost two years ago. The Premier was out around, took to the airways, radio and television, telling the people of Newfoundland we were going to have a great international conference on labour here in this province. No sign of that yet, Sir.

It seems to have died a· natural death like all the other announcements that we have heard coming from the lips of the honourable the Premier. Perhaps the minister could tell us if that is still on the rails or not or has it been scrapped? Did they call it off? Was it a foolish idea? You know the Premier was going to bring in all these experts from all over the world and we were going to solve all the labour management problems right here in this little province.and nothing has happened since, Sir, and the minister should tell us about that.

I would be the last one in this world, Sir, to say that all these problems between management and labour can be solved because I do not think they can. I think it is virtually impossible. A nmnber of ideas have been thrown out in various parts of the world and in various parts of North America, right here in our own province.of how you can solve the problems that crop up between labour and management. I have heard Mr. Stanfield, the Leader of the National Tory Party say, ''Well what we need in this province is wage and price controls," I would like to hear the 'miniate .r's views on that. Does he agree with Mr.

Stanfield? I certainly do not, Sir, I do not think wage control is the answer. It did not work 5639

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1573 NM - 5 anywhere else ·. They tried it over in Great Britian. It did not work. They had voluntary wage and price controls I think down in the United States. That did not work. They almost had to bring the militia in to try to enforce it. But, Sir, in my opinion wage controls are not the answer. I would like to hear the minister's views on that. I would like to know if this administration support Mr. Stanfield in that regard, I cannot see how it could work, Mr. Chairman. I do not know if Your Honour is more of an expert in this field than I am but I cannot see how it could work.

You are going to ask people in the low income brackets not to look for any increases, not to expect any increases for the next say six months, next year. Keep them down! They cannot cope now. So what do you do? You bring in a law barring them from looking for increases in wages, barring the government from upping the minimum wage in this province which incidentally I think should be about $2.50 at the present time. I believe the minimum wage went up. On April 1, was it? AN HON. MEMBER: It will be $2,00 July 1. MR.

NEARY: July 1 it will go up to $2.00, I think the minister should rescind that order and step it up to $2.50 July l. I do not think there was any serious backlash across the province when the minister announced that it was going up to $1.80 and $2.00 as of July 1. There was a time in this province, Mr. Chairman, there was a time if you did that ,then you forced a lot of small businesses to close up, the fish plants especially would go belly up but not anymore.

The fish plant workers in this province, Sir, are the highest paid in Newfoundland today and they are no longer depending upon the government's minimum wage for a living to support their families, no longer dependent on it. As a matter of fact, Sir, it might surprise this honourable House to learn that sometime ago I was talking to a fih plant manager right here on the east coast who informed me that some of his workers last year earned $12,000 and $15,000 and $17,000, the good fish plant workers, the cutters and the splitters, the good worker.

Now there is a lot of overtime involved in that I know, but fish plant workers, did anybody in 5640

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1573 NM - 6 this House ever think they would live long enough to hear that a fish plant worker earned more than a member of the House of Assembly? Well this is so, Sir, this happened last year. It is probably happening again this year, although I understand that earnings are down slightly this year. So wage and price controls, Sir, is not the answer, not in my opinion. If Mr. Stanfield go around the country advocating that, Sir, he is ready to get shot down in flames. AN HON. MEMBER: Stop politicing. MR. NEARY: I am not politicing. He is going to run up against a stone wall on that one, Sir.

I do not think it is a good election issue at all. Then we heard about - I have been advocating this for a good many years myself,profit-sharing. What does the minister think about profit sharing? This may be one technique that could be used, Sir, to cut down on the number of disputes between labour and management. It has worked in certain industries down in the United States. I think the people who believe in profit sharing, who advocated profit-sharing Sir, have not done a good job on getting their message across. People do not understand it. They are afraid of it.

But it strikes me as being an excellent way in which to solve some of the difficulties and some of the problems and some of the headaches between an employer and his employees. I do not know, maybe the trade union movement is afraid of this, afraid of their members becoming a part of management. Maybe that is the reason; I do not know. But it strikes me as being a pretty good idea because if you have employees who are part of the business and they are going to share in the profits, I would think they would take a greater interest in that particular business.

Productivity would probably improve and the employees would think twice before they would do anything to damage the possibility of that business making a profit if profit sharing is the technique that they use. It strikes me as being a very sound formula, Sir, and I think it is probably something that we are going to hear more about in the future. Maybe those who believe in it might in the next few years- do a better job of public relation~ and ~et their message across to employers and employees in North America.

f.iay 9, 1974 Tape No. 15 73 NM - 7 I am glad, Sir, that the minister decided to scrap the Neary Report on illegal work stoppage& in this province. No, the minister nods his head, he has not scrapped it yet. But I hope, Sir, it will never see the light of day again although it was done by a cousin of mine, a gentleman who did not have any experience in this particular field. I hope it will never rear its ugly head again. It should be scrapped. It is impractical, nonsensical. It was just a waste of time and a waste of money as far as I am concerned. What about the Dyer Report?

That has not been tabled yet in this honourable House, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: He does not have the final report. Well what about the first phase? That has not been tabled. We have not seen the Dyer Report, Sir. Mr. Dyer, as I understand it, was commissioned to go out to conduct an industrial enquiry in Buchans during the dispute last year but Mr.

Dyer, instead of doing what he was supposed to do, being inexperienced in this field - the only experience he had was when he was a part of management at one time and tried to get the Tory nomination over on Bell Island and got defeated for the nomination. That was the only thing he had to recol!'lllend him, Sir, for heading up this industrial enquiry. But he went out to Buchans and instead ~f doing the job that he was sent there to do, decided to conciliate the dispute. Experienced conciliation officers and a conciliation board had already failed to conciliate the dispute and ~r .

Dyer decided he would try his hand at that which was not his business at all. It was not a part of the terms of reference. He got shot down, Sir, and I would say as a result of his action the strike in Buchana was prolonged. Instead of helping out I think he made the situation much worse than it was.

Sir, talking about these commissions of enquiry, conciliation boards, boards of arbitration, arbitrators that are appointed by the minister's department, Sir, I have a complaint that I want to make to the minister and I think the minister will agree with me on this, Sir, that in most cases, Sir, and we heard some fantastic figures announced 5642

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1573 NM - 8 here recently about .a gentleman we had come in from outside of t~is province to mediate a disi,ute rlth the lab technicians, Sir, it must b.e awfully discouraging for conciliation officers, with the small pay that tbey get, and the travelling they have to do and the amount of time they have to spend away from home, to hear about these fantastic amounts of money that are being lashed out to Mr. Dyer, to Mr. Neary, to Mr. this one, Mr. that one. It must be awfully discouraging, Sir. These gentlemen work hard.

They have to be away from home, travelling IIIOSt of the year and in my opinion, Sir, they are underpaid and that branch of the minister's department is understaffed. Understaffed, Sir, it is. lt was understaffed when I was there, I do not know if the minister has beefed it up since I left but they are underpaid, Sir, believe me they are. They travel, I suppose most of these gentlemen are away from home most of the time. Their families hardly know them. 5643 •·

May 9, 1974 Tape no. 1574 Page l - MW They get very little compensation. If they go out and have a meal with somebody, they cannot reciprocate, theyamnot invite people out for a meal. If they go out in the evening for a bottle of beer, they cannot buy a bottle of beer back or they cannot buy a drink because they are not allowed to claim it in their expenses and they are supposed to be public relations, representatives of the minister's department and of the government. They should be given a little more freedom, a little more leeway, they should be given a little more pay.

In my opinion there should be more of them. I would say at this present time, Sir, at the moment, that every conciliation officer in the minister's department is on a case. That is right. The minister says,"yes, that is right." If the minister had a dozen more conciliation officers there, they would be all on the road, they would all have a case, at least one. I imagine the requests have backed up in the minister's department for conciliation services. These gentlemen should be given a little more consideration in my opinion in the way of pay and in the way of travelling expenses. It is embarrassing, Sir.

I know when I was there I talked with these gentlemen and I know from my own experience that it is embarrassing for these gentlemen to go and to be taken out by, say the executive of the union and by the negotiating committee of the union or by the negotiating committee of management and to be wined and dined and not be able to buy their round in return, Sir. It puts the conciliation officer in a bit of an embarrassing position. The conciliation officer is trying to keep himself above this and well he should. He does not want to be accused of accepting favours from anybody.

I would like for the minister to consider that item. Sir, if the minister did have more conciliation officers in that branch of his department, I think they would be able to do more preventive work. That is right. The minister is nodding again. I think we are on the same frequency today, Sir. They have a list of all the agreements down in the department. They know when the agree111ents 5644

lfay 9, 1974 Tape no. 1574 Page 2 are going to expire and all the minister has to do is to assign a number of his conciliation officers to go out and to try to bring the union and the employer together even before the contract expires. I think this would be an excellent idea and one way, maybe, to reduce the number of confrontations that take place in this province every year.

Have them go out and say, "Now look, your contract is going to expire two months from now, how about having some preliminary discussions now; Let us see if we can get some of the it-s out of the way now." The minister does not have the staff to do it. I think it would be money well invested, Sir, to take on a half a dozen experienced men, to beef up that department and do a little preventive work instead of waiting for the confrontation to take place, waiting for the fire to start.

Then the poor, old conciliation officers are going all over the province like roosters with their heads cut off, trying to put out a bush fire here, a bush fire there and not really doing justice to any of them. I think the minister will probably agree with me on that. Sir, we heard quite a bit about the labour code. Two years ago, when the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture was Minister of Labour, he told us that his administration was going to bring in a labour code, something that the trade union movement had been asking for for years.

I must say, Sir, that I was really disappointed a couple of weeks ago when I heard the present minister tell us that the labour code would not be ready for this sitting of the House, that we would have to wait until the fall session, Well I would like to hear the minister comment on that. Is it because they do not have the legal staff down in the justice department to draft the labour code? Is that the reason for the hang-up? Is it because the administration cannot agree what should go in the labour code? Is the minister working along with the Newfoundland Federation of Labour on this matter?

The minister says, yes, Well, I would like to hear him get up and tell 5645

May 9, 1974 Tape no. 1574 Page 3 us just what is happening in that regard. It is a promise that was made by this administration, Sir, and another promise that has not been kept ? Now, Mr. Chairman, I think that that is all I have to say at the moment. Perhaps when the minister makes his reply then there may be a few other questions that I want to put to him.

I do sincerely want to say, Sir, that during the year that the minister has been in charge of that department that he had a bout of illness there a few months ago, the minister was ill, and I want to say, Sir, on behalf of my colleagues . that we were very, very pleased and very glad indeed to learn that he has gotten over his illness and was able to resume the full-time responsibilities for that department. The minister is not only responsible for the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations but is also, I believe, responsible for the Department of Public Works and Services.

We do hope, Sir, that the minister will continue in good health and carry on the good work that he has been attempting to do in the last year or so. He is one of the few ministers on that side of the House who we have any regard for, Sir, and I think the minister has finally found his slot. First, I thought that particular member was destined to be Minister of Education . I think that would be a shame, Sir. I think the minister is doing a half -- decent job. Witt, the facilities and with the equipment and with the help that he has in that department, he is doing a fair job. One other thing before I sit down, Mr.

Chairman; It was the intention of the previous administration to transfer all the training programmes. As a matter of fact the name, " Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations ; originated with the previous administration. We had already put a bill through the committee, I believe,(! do not think it was proclaimed) to change the name of that department to Manpower and Industrial Relations. We intended, Sir, to take all the vocational training schools, the College of Trades and Technology, the College of Fisheries, everything that had to do with 5646

May 9, 1974 Tape no. 1574 Page training, would go under the DepartlllBllt of Manpower and Industrial Relations. I think that that is where it should be, Mr. Chairman. I do not think it should be under the Department of Education. I 4 think if it be left under the Department of Education, there is a tendency for too many academics to get involved, The Depart111ent of Education has a tendency to be out of touch with the needs of industry in this province.

I think the minister has the facilities and I would like for the minister to tell us whether this is the intention of the administration to transfer all the training programmes over to his department in the near future. Mr. Chairman, that is all I have to say and I would be interested to hear what the minister has to say and then perhaps we can get on to the item by item analysis of his estimates. MR. ROUSSEAU: I have written down a few points ,- I will try to talk on these and any others he might have. First of all we have a couple of quotes here, "all the strikes in this province." I have the figures.

Would the honourable member like to have the figures? _1{R. NEARY: MR. ROUSSEAU: The honourable gentleman can send me over a copy. I will send the honourable gentleman over a copy. We had,last year, seventy-four strikes in the province. The year before that, 1972, we had forty-six, Last year we had seventy-four of which fifty-five were illegal and nineteen were legal. The apparent number of man-days lost (There is a little red book with the economic outlook of the province by the way which we have a few mistakes in, according to our records) according to our records for legal work stoppages was 160,000 last year.

For the fifty-five illegal strikes, there were approximately 100,000 man days lost. We have an interesting situation this year in that thus far this year we have had for the first quarter, January, February and March, as I suggested before, eighteen strikes, of which sixteen were illegal. During the month of April we have had seventeen illegal strikes. 5647

May 9, 1974 Tape no. 1574 Page 5 There is one interesting thing, Mr, Chairman, and that is that although the total employees involved and so on were not the same number in this quarter, this year, the first four months, January, February, March and April, there were only 7,500 employees involved in strikes

whereas last year there were 12,100. There are a few less people involved. Accordingly, of course, the total man-days lost according to our records are down. For January to April, there were 94,800 lost last yea~ and this year, January to April, there were 41,919 lost. The total number of man-days lost, the total number of people involved, are substantially less than they were last year. I have these figures if the honourable gentleman should wish to have them. I have certainly made a copy for him.

I have said publicly on a number of occasions that if one should take up the newspaper in any province,across this country there are strikes. I do not think Newfoundland has a corner on the strike situation. Maybe because it is a small province and the communication system is pretty well two major systems in radio and television, a third one in radio, that things get around fast. General! speaking, right now we have been pretty quiet during this past week or so. We had a few strikes during April. I do not think this province is as bad from a strike point of view as people would lead us to believe.

Maybe I am wrong but that is my own personal opinion. I spent a few days in Nova Scotia last year and I have spent a considerable amount of time in Toronto in January or February and the situation up there is similar. I was reading the paper this morning , coming back in town from Halifax, They have a problem up there worrying about skilled labour in Nova Scotia, whether they are going to have enough this year. The same problems I think . occur in every province.

All of a sudden people are signing long-term contracts for a year or so and all of a sudden they look at what they thought they signed for and now the dollar is not worth what they thought it was going to be worth and that certainly creates a problem. 5648

May 9, 1974 Tape no. 1574 Page 6 The honourable member mentioned about a reason for a strike, even an illegal strike. There is always a reason for a strike. I do not think that anybody is going to lose a dollar or a day's pay nor a week's pay unless there is a good reason for it. There has to be some reason. While management may not agree, while government may not agree, while the public may not agree, to the man who goes on strike he is going on strike for a reason and to him it is a real reason; nobody else may agree with him.

I will say that during the month of April, in my opinion, tnere were a number of strikes which should not have occurred a number of illegal strikes which should not have occurred. As we mentioned the term preventive, when I nodded, I went on about the CUPE meeting in Gander sometime ago and I suggested to them and I have said it in the committee as well, that when there are disputes that could result in a work stoppage, we have asked labour or management to contact us. I certainly have no hesitation in directing officials of my department and saying; "Look, do we have a problem from the union point of view?

If so, contact the company and say; 1 Look, can we sit down and talk about this before the strike occurs'l'" If the co1111>any has a problem, we do the same thing. I would like to see that occur. We have had it happen.,by the way,a few times this month. It happened quietly, of course.

The unfortunate thing about a strike situation is what when there is a strike, of course, it is blown all over the news,but nobody reads too much about the little item on the bottom of page two or three about the strike that was averted, there was no strike because a settlement was reached either between the management or the union at the negotiating table or with the assistance of a conciliation officer. This happens many more times than there are strikes, people sit across a table. But, of course, there are problems. There are good and bad unions and good and bad management.

When things build up over two or three years between labour and management and then they sit across a table to try to negotiate a contract in good faith, one cannot become 5649

Hay 9, 1974 Tape no. 1574 Page 7 fir,n believers in good faith in a couple of days across a table. The union may feel that it has been treated badly or the company may feel that it has been treated badly over two or three years. One just does not sit down and then rectify it and say; "We are going to bargain in good faith." All these things are vivid in the memory, I guess, of both parties. They do have problems. In some instances I could name them, but I will not. I think people generally know them. There are some companies in this province who have magnificent labour relations with their union employees.

I have had people come in to see me and s_ay; "Look, can we have a conciliation officer? We do not need a board. We will settle it. We would just like to have somebody there in the middle. We have no problem with management.'' Of course, there are other ones who do have problems between the company and the union. That is going to develop at times into wildcat strikes.

I would like to say that I was very pleased (as a matter of fact the only two places in the province which have it right are Labrador City and Wabush but they are available to anybody else) with the concept of the tripartite labour management committee. Since I got elected in my district in March, 1972, we had a strike on the day I got elected, actually, and we have had quite a few ever since. Hy involvement up there is in my capacity as a H.H.A. with any strikes and both sides apparently use my services.

Quite apart from that we set up a labour management committee in Wabush last April and there has not been a strike in Wabush since that time. I do not say that everything is perfect but at least there is the ability for the union or the management, both have an equal right, to list agenda items, where they can sit down and the things that build up inside a man, when he is at work, when he goes home and especially in a company town where the knob may be off the door and his wife is after him about putting a knob on the door, everything gets kind of piled up on him and the next thing there is a wildcat. 5650

May 9, 1974 Tape no. 1574 Page 8 I think last week we set up the same sort of thing at the Iron,Ore Company of Canada. I attended the first meeting a week and one-half or so ago. I am optimistic about the situation in both towns. I would hope that th•se committees would do much to solve any labour situation. The fact is that now labour and aanagement can now sit down at designated times and talk about the problems. One important thing we should remember here is that these are set up for noncollective agreement items. , In other words, we have no intention of replacing the collective agreement.

It is not meant to replace this. It is meant to be a tripartite group which discusses noncollective agreement items except by mutual consent. If both labour and management do want to talk about an item in the contract, then they have to mutually consent to it. It is not an attempt to replace the contract or the collective agreement. Government, union and lllllnagement share the cost of the chairman in three ways. I have no involvement nor the department with the chairman. He is an independent man.

He conducts the meeting from hereon in with IOC and the ones at Wabush are done on his own whenever the company · or union requests it. I think it has been quite successful. I remember he came into my office and showed me three pages of items on the Wabush agenda and then came in about two weeks later and there were six items left. They get down. Of course, items come down to six and they go up to three pages, back and forth. At least there is an opportunity, I think, for dialogue between aanagement and labour.

I think the fact that for one year there has not been a strike in Wabush where there were many shows some indication of the - Baie Verte, maybe, ERCO, Come-by-Chance, these bigger companies who want to have this sort of thing. I think it 5651

May 9, 1974 Tape no 1574 Page 9 a good thing. I think it goes far in sitting down and discussing those little problems that irritate people on the job and so on and ao forth. I am quite optimistic about the success of it so far. I will certainly talk with any company and union in the province who would be interested in setting up a similar type of situation. MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I am interested in some of the statistics that the honourable gentleman was giving on strikes, legal and illegal. I wonder if the honourable gentleman could yield now for a moment for me to ask him one or two brief questions.

It is easy enough to define a legal or to define the duration, the length of time, of a legal strike. I would like to hear some cOlllllent as to how the duration of a wildcat or an illegal strike is come up with - i~e., if somebody -walks about for an afternoon and they go back the next morning and then they are out again in the afternoon, a general malaise of discontent and this sort of thing, is this counted as two, three or four strikes?

The reason I asked the question is because, although I know there are more wildcats than legal strikes, yet the average duration of legal strikes is far greater than the average duration of wildcat. The man nours lost have been significantly greater on· the average. How is the duration of a wildcat strike defined? Is it every walk out, no matter if they are back for a morning or an afternoon or a day in between?

Secondly, Sir, I would like to ask the minister again before he gets too far into policy and philosophy: How does Newfoundland compare statistically with other provinces of Canada along the following lines,i.e., in legal strikes, if one compares days lost with the number of man days worked per labour force or per capita, whichever way one wants to look at it? How do we compare with Ontario or the other industrialized places or other rural places like New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island? Does the honourable gentleman have any figures on that? Because our labour organization is, I believe, in 5652

-~ May 9, 1974 Tape No. 15 75 NM - 1 quantitative terms relatively weaker than most other provinces of Canada,in terms of the number of our labour force or the percentage of .our labour force actually engaged in labour organizations or involved in labour organizations, I feel we have a fairly low percentage. Would he also give us some figures if he has them, considering only those people who are in unions? Row does the lost man­ days position for legal and illegal strikes compare with other provinces of Canada? Am I making myself clear to the honourable minister?

He may not have this kind of statistics but it is the kind of i _nformation, the kind of numbers which puts the whole thing in perspective. If for example we have far more proportionately man-days lost on illegal walk outs than New Brunswick then somebody can reasonably say that something is wrong in Newfoundland, something has gone wrong. If on the other hand we are about the same as New Brunswick or Nova Scotia or Saskatchewan for that matter, as far as man-days lost among those who were involved in labour organizations,then we may not be so fearful.

I mean we might just say although we should look for solutions at least we are on a par or less than other provinces of Canada and we have nothing to worry about. What we are dealing with really is a question of psychology and some of the things that the honourable minister has already talked about, probably tripartite types of organizations and .better grievance procedures, things that get rid of psychological problems, difficulties, thorns in the side and all this sort of thin g . Does the minister have any information on that? 'MR.

ROUSSEAU: First of all the duration of an illegal strike: Normally if there is an illegal strike, the men go back to .work for an hour and come off a~ains normally if it is the same dispute and it is within a short period of time and there are no definite hard and fast rules for it. We know for example we have one in the province now that has been going and coming and going and coming. That will be - MR. WM. ROWE: Is that the one strike? MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes . 5653

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1575 NM - 2 MR. WM. ROWE: Is it considered to be one strike. MR. ROUSSEAU: That would be considered to be one because the same problem is developing all the time, the same question. But normally it is a judgement decision that if the items causing the dispute are still the same as the one after they go back to work for a day or so, it is the same strike . But if it were the same union going out again now the next day for completely different reasons then you would - MR. WM. ROWE: Right. MR.

ROUSSEAU: But normally when at any time there is a trike in the province.whether it is legal or illegal, the officials of the department will check with the union and with the company and in that way they will get an accurate time. In other words if the strike occur , what time did they walk out? The unions will give us the information or the company. So we have an accurate time when the trike commenced and when it ends officially,from either or botP parties if may be,but we contact at any time there is a strike just to find out what the problem ia.

With regard to.the other statistics, I do not have the actual hard statistics but going over the figures I again would like to say to put it in perpective,which is a good idea, the honourable member for White Bay South, also to put it into perspective our total population as well,certainly is another question . lt is very •lifficult. As Disraeli once said, "There are lies, damn lies and statistics and you can make statistics work for you whichever way you want." But another problem involved here would be the construction industry where you have a lot of people working on a big project.

We had for example last year's figures; I was just looking at them here. For example in the mining industry, ninety-seven or say one hundred of the onP hundred and sixty thousand were in the mining industry • That was because of Buchans mostly, Figures can be in a given year, in the construction industry 78,000. Thatwas mostly Come By Chance so if we get a couple of major strikes of a lot of people for a long duration of time, it is going to put the figures out of perspective as well. 56 ... Jq

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1575 NM - 3 But I would say that by and large Newfoundland's comparison with other provinces with respect to legal and illegal strikes is not, I do not think it is one that there is a big gap between them there - relatively speaking. Lt is I guess the saine sort of percentages you would find anywhere across Canada.

With regard to the union versus non-union,I guess in most instances in Newfoundland I would say that the wildcat strikes I would say ninety-five, ninety-seven per cent of the strikes are union strikes of unions, not of non-union individuals and I say that ninety-five, ninety-seven, maybe ninety, but it is a high percentage of course,are unionized in various unions. The Newfoundland Federation I think has a membership of 24,000 or something but there are a lot more workers in the province of course and involved in other unions that are not members of the federations.

So in most instances unionized people in the province, well over ninety per cent of them are the ones of course who go on strike. If other persons go on strike of course they lose their job, they are not rehired. But the actual hard figures I do not have them. Should the honourable member want them I could certainly undertake to - MR. W!1. ROWE: I will give the minister a shout on the telephone. Mil. ROUSSEAU: Okay!

Now the injunction, yes I thought it was loud and clear last year because I was asked and the statement was made I am fairly certainly that the ex-parte injunction was done away with with respect to illegal strikes. It was done in the House and I was surprised because as a matter of fact when the Iron Ore Company of Canada, Local 5795,came down from Labrador City they were surprised that the ex-parte injunction did apply to illegal strikes.

The ex-parte injunction in the House was taken away only in legal strikes, I certainly think it is a fact that the union has the opportunity to present itself in a legal situation and talk about its reason on a strike stituation but I am more concerned with the courts now, I think the courts are not going to stand for contempt of injunctions and I hope that sometime this sullUl\er, if something does not happen -we had a situation last year of course where the courts acted and I am sure that the courts will undertake the 6655

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1575 NM - 4 responsibility. I would hope that a situation would not occur which would put the court in a situation where it would have to take certain actions I think would be injurious to either management or labour. I think the term "connnon sense", I ,will buy that. Who could have told two or three years ago when I was a school principal that I would be Mjnister of Labour ir this province now. Of course all of us are the same when we are thrust into a portfolio. Some people get more involved than others. I am a doer and I have to get involved.

I get rapped on the knuckles by various people, "You should not get involved. You should not get involved." You cannot sit back and watch people on strike. That is my philosophy. If people are on strike and they . cannot come to a conclusion of some kind or other then somebody has to do something. Perhaps I get involved too much I do not ~now but a lot of times it is of course not my involvement, it is departmental involvement.

Where we can assist the parties normally the policy is that in an illegal strike situation I have asked in the last couple of weeks in two instances that people go back to work before we talk to them. We will undertake to assist them if it is a technical thinp, or anything we can do we certainly will but it certainly would be our wish that they go back to work and then we would undertake to use our best efforts to assist them in any way possible to bring about a resolution of the dispute. So I think it is a matter of principle in a wildcat situation where they want our help as a matter of principle.

Each individual situation is different. I refer to myself as a pragmatic situationalist, Each situation varies and you have to have all the facts. Unfortunately as honourable members around the House know invariably, the news media do not always have all the facts. There are a lot of other things that are never mentioned and so on and so forth. I think it is a use of common sense. Labour management relations is something of course that if both sides used and everybody else involved I think it would certainly go far in solving many of the problems. 5656

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1575 NM - 5 You know,let us face a fact of life, management is going to win. All management has to say is no and that is it but if management are going to do that well there are only going to be problems. You are dealing with human beings. You are not dealing with machines. I think once the management of a company understands that they are dealing with human beings and the human beings feel part of the organization then I think the human beinp,s are going to function and function at a level that will increase the productivity.

You do not always need an expansion to increase productivity, you treat people fairly and squarely_ That does not mean saying yes to everything; that means square and fair when you say no, this cannot be done because of this valid reason. I think people are prepared to accept it in most instances,not all but in most instances. Talking about the unemployment figures,of course the other ones will be out shortly. We are not happy with the unemployment figures. We would be crazy to say so.

Of course there is not much I can do with regard to capital works and the total expenditure of $1,100,00('I for the department but again of course the Department of Manpower is responsible for the figures and of course responsible to get these people to work as best they can. Now as you know in the restructuring last year we had an emphasis out on manpower in the department and where the Department of Labour was essentially an industrial relations department it is now the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations.

We have se.t up recently and we are going at yesterday's announcement about manpower training and certification board which increases much the scope of the old apprenticeship board. We have a number of sub­ commit tees which are working there on what we have formed now, the federal-provincial manpower needs committee. We have a federal and a provincial co-chairman. The deputy minister is the co~ch8irman, the provincial co-chairman. Then there is a gentleman from Halifax who is the federal co-chairman and we also have two co-secretaries working there, a federal and a provincial co-secretary.

We are attempting now to 5651

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1575 NM - 6 discover what we are going to need in the years to come for jobs, w'hat people we should train, Do we need electricians or do we need welders or do we need plumbers or do we need carpenters or do we need beauty cultural - what do you call it? AN HON. MEMBER: Beeuty culturalists, MR. ROUSSEAU: Beauty culturalists or hairdressers or what have you, We would get some indication of what our future manpower need would be.

We had a meeting the other day with the forestry subcommittee, We also have a technical subcommittee, a subcommittee on unemployment opportunities for disadvantaged adults, an industrial training subcoll'lllittee, a forestry industry subcommittee, fishing industry subcommittee, construction subcommittee and various ad hoc committees. There are lots of committees on training 1 purchases, supervisory training and so on, these are committees.

Sut we have to identify what our future needs are and hopefully then the Manpower Division of the department then should take the lead and converse with the people in Education who are doing the training and ourselves and try and train those people that we are going to need for the jobs in the future. As I suggested this morning,in flying in I read "The Halifax Herald" and Nova Scotia is worried about its trained personnel. I am worried in this province about it but I think yesterday we suggested that time served should not be the only criteria for a certificate.

We have got to look at other aspects and so on and so forth and we have good people in this province who never went the long route of apprentices. Again it is something that we have to recognize that apprentices are on-the-job trainees and the spirit of it is there. Some of the companies do not use it. We had one instance you know where a company has one to one, let us say 100 and 100, 100 jo~rneymen and 100 tradesmen. They were preparing the tradesmen, they were preparing the apprenticeship, An apprentice is not going to learn anything from another apprentice.

So the companies have to enter into the spirit of it. I am quite pleased of course with that programme in Labrador City and Wabush,The Iron Ore Company of Canada and Wabush Mines have over 5658

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1575 NM - 7 300 apprentices on the rolls down there increasing constantly. I am quite pleased with that. The job situation certainly, you know construction jobs are not permanent jobs. You have situations at Come By Chance,when the thing is finished now you may get a few jobs. At the Upper Churchill 250 permanent jobs, highly technical. But the one thing about it we must remember it is not going to happen over-night. I would love to see jobs, lt is politically fantastic for us to create jobs.

It is not that we are trying to stamp on it; to try and find them but it is going to be a long process. There will be a lot of people working in the construction industry and then they will be laid off and permanent jobs coming up which will be few. But all these small steps,some day please God we will have enough permanent jobs to make the figures look at least adequate. Of course we are going to have the same problem of the booming labour force in the province. The labour force is !!;rowin!!; very quickly.

Now whether or not we can stay ahead of that I do not know but certainly we have to look at it from a point of view of what we are going to need in the future,and we are cert•inly trying to do that. We feel that the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations­ and Manpower was put first on that name and that should not escape as being a significant fact,that we are attempting there to provide a thrust in the Manpower Division. It is going to take a while to build it, it is going to take a while to get involvement that we should get, close involvement with the federal people.

We like to make sure now that we know what is going on manpowerwise and have a better liaison with the Federal Department of Manpower. So that the thrust will be there. It is going to take time, as quick as the reople can do it. We have a good man there in W. J. May, the Assistant Deputy Minister,! think who knows manpower well in the province. There are not a lot of people who are as conversant with it as he is.

He is doing a good job and the other people involved there and we hope that that division of the department will become very viable in reality,to forecast what we are going to need in two, five, ten years time in the various trades and t-hen get together 5659

'1ay 'l, 1974 Tape No. 1575 NM - 8 with the people who are doing the training and hopefully these people will be ready and trained, either at the apprenticeship level on the job or in the schools or what have you. The Conference on Labour started out last year and actually what happened there,and I will be quite frank, everybody jumped on an international conference. I am sure if anybody can understand it, the member for Bell Island,who was the Acting Minister of Labour should know that vou do not step on toes and use the wron~ urotocol.

You know the Canadian Federation of Labour (CFL) is the official spokesman for labour in the country and you should go to them to invite people who would come from outsid~ of the country. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. ----- - MR. ROUSSEAU: In other words it would be inappropriate for the government or myself to issue an invitation to somebody out~ide the country. It should be done through the proper channels and by the proper protocol. They are the spokesman for labour in the country.

So hopefully we had hoped for spring,and then there was a decision on whether we would call 100 or 200 or 300 or call a few people in and then come up with some type of agenda and say, "Here is what we are going to discuss." So certainly it has not been shelved but things happen and it is still - MR. NEARY: Slow getting off the ground. MR. ROUSSEAU: It is slow getting off the ground. The minimum wage of course it is a problem again. I say one thing,! was surprised when the rumour got out on how high we might raise it.

There were a lot of people who suggested a lot of businesses wguld go under because of the increase. I am talking about small businesses and so on,but I have not heard of any. Now that does not mean there has not been any. I do not think there have been the outcry. $1.80 certainly is not very much but :f.n two years this government has raised the minimum wage from .90¢ and $1.10 to $1.80.

Now we are going to $2.00 on July 1 and we are going to $2.20 on January 1, 1975 with an automatic,as I suggested when we made the announcement, an auto-tic reassessment of the situation i1111Dediately on January 1 as to where we should 11:0. 5GG~

"'lay 9, 1974 Tape No. 1575 Now we had more on it and we sat down and the actual report of the Minimum Wage Board had another step and we decided we did not want to project ourselves too far in the future because by that ' . I time the money "that we agreed on to become the minimum wage might not be appropriate. So we talked to the Minimum Wage Board and they agreed and we left it at three of them and changed their dates a little so that in January if that is not an appropriate amount we '1rill not be tied in too long in the future to the amount.

Certainly there will be an automatic reassessment of the situation again in · January. NM - 9 I think one thing that should be pointed out is the fact that we now have no discrimination with regard to age. Sixteen years old and over earn the minimum wage. I think that what happened there was there were certain businesses in the province who were hiring people at sixteen for $1.25,

whereas they were paying $1.40 to the over eighteen,and hiring them at $1.25 at sixteen and when they became eighteen they were suddenly fired, somebody else at sixteen was hired. So that was something we had to get around. So a man is a man. If a sixteen yea~ old can do a man's work then he should be paid a man's pay for it. So we decided to do away with that. I was quite pleased that that was done. Right now we are looking at the trawler industry, the taxi people, the domestics and one other, I forget what it is. There are four of them anyway, oh agricultural workers.

So we are looking at this now and it is an ongoing thing, the Labour Standards Board, and of course we will mention that probably when we get to that. Profit sharing - where I have heard it work for example,! think of some of the big chain stores and that it certainly helps, it makes a person a part of an organization. Now how do you make a person a part of an organization? You can make it by profit sharing, you can make it by making a person feel he is part of · an orgnization. I was in a place one time in the province,a larr;e industry, before I became inv~lved in politics,and the manager came down.

I knew him quite well you see and he walked by me and said, "Hi." I looked at him and I said, "Do yo~ ever smile~ You know I have been visiting you and I know you on 5661

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1575 NM - 10 the job, I have never seen you smile. Do you ever smile at anybody and say, 'Good morning~• I know it used to be hard in the morning as a school principal when I used to get up and watch my teachers and students come in through the door. You know if you are there with a long face on,you you are going to ruin the day for everybody so you try and smile and make other people happy." These are thin!f-q that make people part of the - Now profit sharing is one. Good human relations is another.

Cost of living is becoming now very prevalent, and the fact that you cannot project yourselves into three year contracts and know what your money is going to be worth. Of course the answer is to curb inflation. But if we cannot do that and certainly the cost of living, they have it in some areas, in Labrador City, Wabush every quarter it is done, every quarter is based on the past quarter and there is a one cent raise for every half cent rise in CPI, Consumer Price Index.

That is another Yay of doing it but I think the essential thing that the member was saying,that you wanted to make somebody feel part of the organization and I could not agree more. This is certainly one way to make somebody feel part of it, · F~r our own part,if we do not feel part of the organization then certainly our effort decreases. The Neary Commission, we had a brief from the federation who were the ones who said,you know. We take that and we would like to have management's views as well as we did with other ones. Right now 5662

May 9, 1974 Tape no. 1576 Page 2 make a decision ourselves. Of course, they both have given us their points. Labour and management have seen each others point and there is a committee set up with one or both of the Deputy and Assistant Deputy of Industrial Relations who are always in attendance. They have a departmental view there and they can get a reading on it. Mr. Cyril Greene has ~een given to us full time by the Premier to do the drafting of this. It cannot be done during the time when the other people have other things to do. He is full time on this one job. It is a mammoth job.

We want to make certain that we - The Dyer Report, we had the first one. There is no reason why if the honourable member should want a copy of it. At the time the House was not open but there was so much activity nobody thought about it. If the honourable member would like to have it, at his suggestion, he would be more than welcome to have it. There is no problem there at all. I have a copy here, if I may, of the Order-in-Council.

What the Order-in-Council said was this: "The commission to deal with the said labour dispute in two phases." The first one which he did, "The commission shall endeavour to bring about a settlement of the present dispute and an early resumption in mining operations." In other words, he was trying to come up with a formula that might be listened to by management and labour arid come up with some financial package, the wage and fringe benefits and so on that it would bring about.

The second phrase which he is doing now and which I understand he should have finished in a short time, within a week or two now I would hope to have, "The commission shall enquire into the economic prospects of the mine in the immediate and foreseeable future with particular reference to: (

a) the life expectancy of the mining operation in its present form or any modifications thereof; and 5664

May 9, 1974 Tape no. 1576 Page 1 - MW the status of the Neary Commission is that of its being with the labour code. Now what happened here in the labour code, what we are doing is consolidating labour standard legislation. That is being done. It is a mammoth job. There are people to do it. It is a mammoth job. It takes time for draftsmen. We see legislation come into this c011111littee and then bango, a month or two months or a year after sometfiing happens.

We have in minimum.wage, where we are talking about all the labour standard legislation in the province, we have to be very careful that we cover things and hopefully for as long as we can. Regarding the labour code, we had the reco111Dendations done. We divided it, as I showed before. There is a book here about it. We divided it into those things that labour and management agree with, our comments and those items on which labour and unagement disagree. Now may be wrongfully, I do not know, but labour and man~gement did not know the views of each other until just recently.

We had a committee set up to look at labour legislation. We have thirtr-four items right now that are in disagreement between labour and management on ' the reco111Dendations of the Cohen Commission which could or may not be included in the new labour code. Now my own personal feeling, the departmental feeling and I would suspect government's feeling is that in the final analysis we want to hear both sides, If we cannot get them to agree, then, of course, we have to make a decision whether it should be put in or whether it should not be put in. We have to be the arbitrator in making the decision on what goes in.

Of course, it _would be much better! These laws govern labour and they govern _manag_ement. They do not govern government. The government merely administer it. The more agreement one can have between the parties as to the legislation they would like to have to direct them, the better it is. We are going to make ari effort to try that. If we cannot do it, we will have to 5663

May 9, 1974 Tape no. 1576 Page (

b) whether a contingency plan has been prepared by the company with respect to any phasing down of its operations; (

c) what plans, if any, does the company have covering the future company property in the event of a close down; (

d) whether there is any serious inadequacy on the part of workmen or management with respect to matters of industrial safety and health;and (

e) any other matters affecting the social and economic relationship between the company and its employees at Buchana. " Now the member may ask, you know, Mr. Dyer may not be - Mr. Dyer has been given permission to use people, mining experts or engineers or sociologists or psychologists or what have you for 3 any of the expert advice he needs. We expect to have it in a couple of weeks,as I have said. He did not conciliate the dispute. Actually he tried to give a formula which would bring about an end to the dispute.

With regard to conciliation officers: When one is involved with them as much as a minister is and the people in the ' department, one has to recognize that they are probably the most under-rated people in the government. They are out there to re-enforce what I suggested. There are many contracts that are negotiated without a strike. In many instances they are involved in them. They can go in there and they are pretty good people to sit down across a table. They have good experience. We have a great number of people. I would like to see the status of these people raised, there is no question about it.

They are people who, like the honourable gentleman says, sit down between management and labour,on both sides of the table both are making much in excess of what they are making. It is certainly a difficult situation. I certainly would like to go on recard as saying that I feel conciliation officers are men of high repute, men of high ability. We have added a couple more by the way. I think we have eight now in the office. We have two in Corner Brook. 5665

May 9, 1974 Tape 1576 IB-4 right now and the rest of them in St. John's. They are on the go all the time. They are in one area or out of another area. They will also go out where there is nothing contractural but where sol!'lebody wants somebody to get together. For example, in the recent Waterford situation we had a conciliation officer sit down with both sides and help out there. So, transfer the training to to M.I.R. I have that down for Manpower and Industrial Relations. We buy the training and with the Department of Education we work together on it. I have some feelings on it.

Certainly I think they were the people who handled the situation very well. Again it is a matter of education. So, whether or not we would - well, we have the apprenticeship programme under our jurisdiction which is another on-the-job training of the tradesmen in the province. We talked about that and we have a good liaison. So, all we have now is the liaison between the Department of Education and the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations in respect to the training of school tradesmen. I have got everything covered that I can see here.

I do not know whether there is anything that I have left out or not or if anybody else would like to make a comment. CAPT. WINSOR: Mr. Chairman, he fore the minister passes it, could the minister advise us? Is there any machinery legal or otherwise to deal with illegal strikes? Illegal strikes today are beginning to bother people who are management and the general public,where there does not appear to he a binding contract any more between labour and management.

It has been known when a contract has heen signed, in less than a year there is an illegal strike. ~any productive hours have been lost through illegal strikes. I am sure it is having an adverse effect on companies who arc looking to come to Newfoundland to start some kind of an industry. It irs beginning to be a very serious problem, so many illegal strikes. Is there anythin~ that can be done to stall these strikes? ~R. ROUSSEAU: Certainly. Of course, one thing we have to recall now 566ti

"'ay 'J, llJ /4 Tape l 57t> IR-5 is that the new Labour Code will have to have something in there. But that is off say in six months, five months, three months or whenever we sit for that. Certainly, that consideration has to be given. Like I said, th~ Neary Commission Report is also in the hands of the gentlemen involved with the Royal Commission on Labour, the Cohen Commission. This is being done in conjunction with that. We are going to have to make some mov.e on it. Right now - what is therr at the present moment? Of course, there are fines that the company can impose. Not big ones. They are very small.

Whether or not a big one would inhibit or not, I do not know. It has been said by Mr. Neary in his Conmission Report that one cannot legislate the men not to go on strike. In other words, instead of $100 or $500 which we now have, if one had $1,000 and $10,000, it is doubtful to me - Mr. Neary says the same thing and doubtless many people but possibly I am wrong, that one could keep people from going on a wildcat strike. The amount of money is not often the deterrent. It is a matter of principle with them. So, the company can bring these fines to bear under the law.

Also, of course, in instances if a company should decide, a company in an illegal right works situation - now an illegal work stoppage according to Neary - I guess this is the best we can do. Where a collective agreement is in effect and where a work stoppage occurs, that strike is illegal. That is a general definition of an illegal strike. Now, if a contract between a labour group and a management group is in effect and something is shut down, whatever the company may be, then the union is also liable for the lost production if a company decided they wanted to push it.

Again, you know, as soon as one sits down at a table to try to get the people back to work, one of the items has to be that no litigation will take place and so on and so forth. So, it is in the company's hands. The laws are on the book if the company wanted to use them. 5667

May 9, 1974 Tape 1576 IB-6 Of course, the courts are becoming now I think in the province ·more aware of the situation. I think they are starting to cope with it and are demanding more from union and management. One can get an injunction which can limit the picketing or provide free access. Whether or not one can legislate by injunction to get somebody to go back to work or not, it is another thing. Whether it can be won in court or not is debatable. One cannot order men back to work. One can cease and assist with picketing and to provide free access for management and so on and so forth.

But whether or not one could force them to go back to work by law would be a long drawn out thing. I do not think it would be best attempted. When one gets an illegal work situation you see, the prime thinking of management and of labour, of course, is to get back as soon as possible. So, if they find that they are right around the door from a settlement, they are not going ' to let something inhibit getting back to production. Often times of course management will drop any of this and men go back to work. "'1R. ~J.RTIN: Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of conments I would like to make with regard to liaison.

Before I get into that, I just have a few things to say on illegal strikes. I do not think that there is any way that it is possible to legislate against illegal strikes. An illegal strike occurs because of some grievance that is either not covered in the contract or which is being deliberately broken.

I remember as a union business agent going into a plant that had been struck illegally, talking to the foreman who had caused the whole thing and who said quite blatantly, "The contract that was signed last month was not worth the paper it was written on and I have no intention of following it." Now, one may be able to legislate against workers who are out on an illegal strike. In a case like that, I suggest that the legislation should be brought to bear against the• company personnel. That iS scime_thing that the min:fster might chew on when he is thi~king about his new Labour Standards Code.

What I really want to talk about here very briefly is a matter of liaison between the province and with both the Federal 5668

May 9, 1974 Tape 1576 IB-7 Manpower Department and people who are involved in personnel training or placement in industry. As far as I am concerned, the Federal Manpower Department is something similar to the old Labrador Affairs Department. It is not only not doing its job, it is a nuisance. I have known several occasions in the last two or three months when people have called up from my district asking me to intercede on their behalf to get a job in a certain area, notably in Labrador West. They have been in touch with the supervisors and foremen on the job.

They have been informed that jobs are available but also told that they had to be placed by manpower. They have gone to the manpower office in Goose Bay and told that no such job existed. They have then come to my office to ask me to intercede. I would go back to the supervisor and confirm that there was a job. I would have to tell the manpower center to get on the ball and place this person. This has happened more times than enough. It is the rule rather than the exception.

As far as I am concerned it is a question of whether or not that whole department is necessary, I would like to know whether or not the minister is aware of this situation? If any steps are being taken by his department to deal with it, to circumvent this kind of thing, perhaps to ignore Canada Manpower altogether and to provide direct links between people who are out of work, looking for work,and companies which have wo;k available? I would suggest perhaps that it is possible.

I know it is possible because it is done in other areas 'where by computerization it is possible to make a complete current inventory of jobs available and labour available. This is updated on a daily basis. Then people are brought into jobs which ordinarily they would not know about. More specifically with the Lower Churchill about to be started, I would like to know whether or not the minister is taking any steps to prevent the same thing happening as happened with the work on the Upper Churchill.

I refer specifically to out-of-province and in many cases out-of-the country workers coming in and taking jobs that could have been and should have been filled by people from the region, people from the province, people from the illlllediate locality in some instances. 5669

I-lay 9, 1974 Tape 1576 IH-8 , Now, I do not think it is written into any labour code but it is certainly an accepted practice that when jobs are available they are filled first of all if and when possible from the local area. Outside of that it is within the province and outside of that the neighboring provinces. This is an accepted standard of labour hiring practices.

What happened with the tTpper Church1ll was that supervisors and the foremen,principally from construction companies in Quebec,were filling jobs in their companies with people from Quebec, naturally enough with whom they had worked before and were sure of and could trust. They were writing home ·and saying, "l'oy, there is a job here. Come on up and get it.'' They were replacing even some very menial labour jobs that should have been filled by people from this province. I would like the minister to confirm what I have heard, that steps are being taken.

I would like to know what steps are being taken and whether or not when a job does become available, the people in the outlying areas are going to know about these jobs and be able to get into them and whether we know at this point what kind of skilled labour is going to be needed and if any steps are being taken now to train people to step into them when these jobs become available. MR. ROUSSEAU: There are a couple of good points there. First of all I will deal with the liaison with the federal government and industry. Of course, as you know, it has been one year since the manpower division has been set up.

Then, one of the first items we did was to form the Federal/Provincial Manpower Needs Committee which is our liaison with the federal government. There are two permanent persons in the Manpower Industrail Relations offices down on O'Leary Avenue, one provincial, one federal in which we have a constant liaison with the federal department. The co-chairman I think is · a Mr. McCuish. I think he is a director of the Atlantic Region in Halifax. He is with my deputy,Ted Blanchard. The two of them are the co-chairmen. This is a liaison committee. We will be making a statement in a few days.

I think we are in the midst now of suggesting again to the federal government that a federal department of manpower the manpower part of the 5670

May 9, 1974 Tape 1576 IB-9 Manpower and Immigration Department,that we would like to know what is going on and we would like to have our finger in the pie so far as manpower in this province is concerned. So, we have just had approval by government to sign an agreement with the "feds" so that there will be more involvement on our part to know what is going on with manpower. Of course, as one can understand, the simple conceptual name of Manpower and Industrial Relations,people do get mixed up with Manpower and Immigration.

Certainly we intend as I say - it was not just by chance that the term manpower was put before industrial relations. I think the people down there, the staff, as we go through the estimates, one will find that we have a building staff down ther _e. We are going at the job and we want to see the manpower division strengthen and we want to see it do its job.

When it becomes, not the equivalent of the federal Department of Manpower because of course it is a larger one, when it has the weight and the people and the experience that it i .s getting now daily and we have the proper liaison with the federal people, I think it will be certainly a great help in this province. I think that we should play a

part in this province in the manpower field. It is a federal responsibility in some ways but we also have a big responsibility as a government here to the people in this province to provide work. Of course, this is one of the areas where we have to do it and we intend to make sure that our feelings are heard at all times. So, this conmittee is constantly meeting. All the subcommittees, by the way, that I mentioned a little while ago, they are all federal-provincial subcoDDDittees. So tha •t we have, for example, in the forestry one now we have my colleague from St.

Barbe South, his officials would be involved as well as the federal and provincial and other experts and so on and so forth. So that what we are trying to do in that particular industry now is to enhance the reputation of the logger . For example, at one time in this province, I think - I em not that old but I can 5671

~ay 9, 1974 Tape 1576 IB-10 remember ~tories when I was young and lived in Deer Lake in the first ten or eleven years of my life - we had one of the finest logging industries in the county, All of the sudden, the people are not going in, The pay is not enough, The living conditions were not good. Gradually of course people left. We here today - I heard a statement by Gonzo Gillingham, the business representative for the carpenters and 1oiners and the lo22ers that he is afraid that many people will not go in the woods this summer because of work on construction.

In other words, if the logging industry werea creditable one and the money were good and the living conditions were good and so on and people were proud to be a part of it, we have the makings, Newfoundlanders are good loggers. We have the makings of it, So, this particular subcommittee now will attempt to lure people, if you want to, into the logging industry. We will be doing it in other industries. We will be doing it in liaison with the department involved as well as the federal and provincial government from a manpower point of view.

So, as I said, we have to try and establish what our needs are in the various industries and then try and attract people into that industry and do as much as we can to place as many Newfoundlanders in the trade of their choice. That we can do. So, there is a liaison with the federal government. Not enough yet but I will be making a statement, I suppose in a couple of days in the House when I get a release on it about the recent one that we have 5672

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 15 77 NM - 1 agreed to become iuvolved in and the federal government have agreed. We have taken on certain responsibilities as well which we we are prepared to take on but we will have a closer liaison with the Manpower Training and that statement will be made in a few days. I agree with you that there must be because when you talk about jobs you know I moved to Labrador in 1962. The situation of course in Labrador City and Wabush and at Churchill Falls,which I knew laterally,are ones that were of constant complaint to people in Labrador City, Wabush and in Churchill Falls.

As far as I am concerned, as far as government is concerned, we have made specific requests to anybody who comes into this province that we would like to see material supplied by this province where we have the materials. 1ndeed we are talking to people now of things that are coming in for large construction jobs that come in here as raw materials, shipped up-along and finished and sent back up here. Why can we not do it in the province?

So where we can get the content, supply of materials in this province, I think that a company moving into this province has an obligation to the province to purchase the materials here, to leave the dollars here. Number two,with regards to labour, where they are available in the province there is no question in my mind that if there is a job in this province and if a Newfoundlander is available or Labradorian Newfoundlander is available and he has the skills to do it then he should get the job, There is no question in my mind about that.

The point that the honourable member is making,of course in my district now I would have a lot of skilled people but as far as the Lower Churchill is concerned for example jobs in labour where they are not skilled I think that certainly the Linerboard Mill at Stephenville and the Come By Chance they hired locally. I think that we have a right too, to place where ~e can our people in that area and certainly with the situation on coastal Labrador and where people are not skilled in the trades,as many as you would get down here, I think that we should at least have a first crack at the labour.

I have already talked to the unions about this and they see the 5673

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 15 77 NM - 2 point and we have not fought the - when I am talking about "we" I am talking about Labrador now- we have not fought the Stephenville one nor the one at Come By Chance. We tried to get a few jobs for people. I tried as an M.H.A. and all of us have,but it is a local thing and we accept that. Now when it goes ahead in Labrador,we expect the same courtesy from other people.

So I would hope that where a Labradorian was avilable for a job in the conRtruction of the Lower Churchill that certainly then he would be Fiven good consideration and if not preference in many instances in where he came to the job. I think that one thing we can - the supervisors you mentioned,that is a point, from Quebec hiring of course their friends. These people go around to jobs all over the world and whenever they get there they phone their friends and their friends come in.

So I think that the construction of the Upper Churchill and some other large projects of the province have given us a trained pool of administrative personnel which we did not have before. Churchill Falls was a very highly technical job and people in this province just were not capable at the beginning. So we have ~any Newfoundlanders up there now who are top flight executives in so far as the operation is concerned and I would think that the same situation should not occur at the Lower Churchill and I certainly would make every effort on my part for it.

I will tell you here and now that I intend to becomi;as the individual M.H.A. for Labrador and as a member of the government, I inte11d to keep a close watch on the Lower Churchill insofar as 1obs are concerned and in so far as labour and content are concerned. Because you get so mixed up you know. We have figures come in last year about Newfoundlanders and non-Newfoundlanders and so on, the figures coming out with Newfoundlanders and non-Newfoundlanders always looked pretty good, sixty, seventy, eighty per cent.

What they were doing was that the figures that ~,ere being released were for non-skilled or non-supervisory personnel, so you had sixty, seventy, maybe up to eighty per cent. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. 5674

May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1577 NM - 3 MR. ROUSSEAU: I know that but if you took the whole total work force in, now that is another question. It never reached seventy or eighty per cent. They were the figures of the supervisory personnel who were not Newfoundlanders and then the figures went down into the fifties and sixties. There were never enough.

Of course now the living up there was not the best either and I think the Newfoundland Telephone situation of course,with the cost of a man up there with his family on the island, the cost of a telephone call, the cost of the travel and everything else certainly inhibited them from travelling back and forth. It is not easy for a man to spend a long time away from his family. We have many people,of course, the nucleu  who will again go up at the beginning and leave at the end, but I have got to tell you that I have got respect for these people. They are pioneers.

They go up there and you know they always talk about the large rates of pay and so on and so forth but people work long hours. You know in Wabueh and Labrador City and on to Churchill and any other construction job guys work fifteen or sixteen hours. The pay was not that high. You know everybody thinks in Labrador West everybody is a millionaire. Millionaires ~aloney! What they do is they work their hours and they work long hours and working long hours they made money for it. They get four hours sleep and they would be back on the truck. That is where the big dollars came from.

So the figures are very difficult but I can assure the honourable member from Labrador South that I feel that the Lower Churchill is a project that has to be done in Labrador and I certainly think that the Labrador imput into it should be great, especially where we have the people to fill those jobs and local labour certainly should be given the preferance and where we do not have the skilled people. At least in the areas where we do have them, certainly I would like to see them there.

So I will be watching that with very active and acute interest and I intend to become involved in that operation so far as Labrador· comes. To me the issue of local labour, I am talking about provincial now, labour from the province, supplies from the province where possible, is a matter of principle with me and to say that statement means a lot • I say 5675

.1 May 9, 1974 Tape No. 1577 NM - 4 that where the supply of materials can be gotten from the island and where the labour cart be gotten from the island or from Labrador then that is where it should come. We do not want a permit system as they have in Quebec but a wise man once said, and I will rephrase it in this way, not necessarily a work permit but a work permit if necessary. I do not want to see it come in because I would think that the borders of our province should be open to everybody the same as their borders are open to us.

But vhen I have a situation in my district where sixteen miles away a man cannot get a job in Mount Wright because of the Quebec permit system, I think somebody has to realize that you have to co-operate and if somebody is not prepared to co-operate then I am prepared to do what I have to do as the member for my district to ensure that it does not happen. So I am not. Hopefully, you know this province will not have to turn to the permit but I would certainly for my own part recommend it without hesitation if I thought it were necessary. So I say that a work permit if necessary but not necessarily a work permit.

In other words I would hope that one would not be needed. MR. MARTIN: Two final points on that: There is a problem with regard to the Labourers' Union, I mention these specifically, There may be problems with other unions but I have been involved with the Labourers' Union situation where there is a union security clause where if there are jobs available, the first call goes to union membership who are out of work. At the Manpower Office in Wabush we had local people already in Wabush looking for jobs,from coastal areas,who went to Manpower and were told that they had to go through the union office.

The labour union involved did not have an office in Wabush, their office was in St. John's. Manpower refused to hire them or refused to recommend thrm unless they had a union card. It was impossible for them to get a union card because there was no union office there. I would like to see