Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTV-8EVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBL V OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session Number 29 VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, MARCH 12, 1976 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER

Harch 12, 1976 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Hr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape No. 1100 ~"lL SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister Without Portfolio. NH - 1 Hr.. 1-TF:LLS: ~ve do not know at this time the plight of the men of the Cape Freels. The information which w·e have up to the moment is that the ship itself has heen sighted. Apparently there is no one on board. There was a fire in the engine room some hundred miles East of St. John's. It is obvious that a lifeboat has left the ship and it is presumed that the twenty-seven crew members must be on that lifeboat.

Planes and ships of various nationalities that are in the area are converging on the area in the hope,of course,of finding the lifeboat and in the hope of finding the men alive and well and rescuing them. I thought that the House should be brought up-to- date on such information as we have at this time and of course it goes without saying that our prayers and thoughts are with these men that they may be safely found and brou~ht back to their homes. f'!J!, NEARY: Ahy coast guard ships in St. John's at alll HP . • HELLS: I do not know about coast guard ships from St.

John's hut I am told there are at lest six or seven ships of all nationalities converging on the area. MR. HICKMAN: Eight now. HR. ~.]ELLS: Eight, eight ships,yes. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. }~. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, very briefly, those of us on this side would thank the hon. gentleman for bringing the House up-to-date on it. All of us I know share the concern which everybody feels at the plight, which I think was the hon. gentleman's word, and a good one of his to describe the situation.

Anybody who is the least bit familiar with the sea is aware of the hazards of it, beginning with the psalmist who spoke of those '·7ho go down to the sea in great ships. Mr. Speaker, it is only when we see that twenty-seven men are placed in danger of this sort that we realize that the sea can be cruel as well as beneficient, And I know, Sir, that the hon. member 2905

~·arch 12, 1976 Tape 1101 IB-1 _!T.._::!OBERTS: speaks for all of us when he says that our prayers and our thoughts are l~ith the men, and we can only hope that _the measures that are being taken,or any others that can be taken,will succeed .and the men will be found and a trage~y will be averted. ~'P .• SPEAKER: Before calling ~tatements by ~~inisters, the day before yesterday a point of order came up with respect to Statements by Ministers which I said I wished to consider before giving a ruling, and that was l·lhether when an hen. member who is entitled to speak after a ministerial statement may make his comments or quest1ons of clar1fication in more than one entry.

In other words,~~ether he may have !'lore than one opportuni.ty to make comments or to ask questions. I have consi~ered the custom and usage of this House during the past several years and also the internal logic of the rules. Certainly the interal logic of the rules suggests that in comments more than one opportunity for comment would tend to leacl to debate, and that more than one ·opportunity to ask questions would perhaps be better exercised at the period for Oral nuestions.

Also with respect to the usage of the House~which is the conclusive determinant here since there is no specific Standing Order, the usage and custom has been that these comments or questions be all marshalled in one entry and made at one opportunity. Therefore, the ruling is that for hen. members who are entitled to make comments or to ask questions of explanation after a ministerial statement, these should in fact be done on one occasion. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: ~· SPEAKEP: The hon. Yinister of Industrial and Rural nevelopment. 1-'T'.

LT!NnJ~IGAN: }<r. ~peaker, on behalf of my colleague, the Yin is ter of Forestry and Agriculture, I would like to make a brief statement on a financial assistance prorramme. MR. ROBERTS: But the Minister of Forestry is here! ~. LT~PIGAN: noes the han. member have a question? 2906

~<arch 12, 1976 Tape 1101 IB-2 ~m, PO!IET'TS: I<r. Speaker, the question is the m:l.n:!ster has not sa~.d anything except that he is making a statement in behalf of his colleap.ue. That normally means that his colleague is absent 1 but the ~':!nister of Forestry and Agriculture is fortunately very muc:-.h '<•ith us. It is a somewhat unusual procedure. I merely ask YR. LUNnFIC.AN: l'r. Speaker - ~. WELLS: Excuse me. I take it a point of orcler has been raisen. Is that - MR. ROBERTS: Well, it is a minor point. It is only a question.

I just woncl.erec ">hy, you know. t'l', SPE/>KE!' : 'T'he han. ~·i.nister of Industrial and Pural 1"1evel~pment. ~IT'. L11ND1'IC'AN: Well, on behalf of myself, I wou1rl like to put the c01!11!1a in my remarks that I must have left out somewhere a]ong the 1••ay,and say that :!t :ls w1th a p,reat deal of pleasure that I wish to announce a financ:lal assistance progra~e to the forestry industry of the Province 1;rith the co-operation, consent,understand:lng and 1-mrking relationship of my colleague, the 1'inister of Forestry ancl /lgr:lc1.1lture.

For some two months, Your Honour, we have been wo!"king with the ~e1"foundlnnd Lumbe~en's Proclucers Association to Clevelop a system of assistance to the sawmill industry 'lo.•hereby we cnn support l"ith an inventory programme, a financial programme, the sawmill intlustry to help them through r:1ifficult T•Tinter periocls, the aim l1ei.nf ,of course~to assfst them to be pror:1ucti .ve cluring the l>Tinter months so that they can during the market season supply more of the local neerls.

Th:ls programme is clesi.gned to enable sawmills ,.. -·~- -· - c-.apable of proc1ucing a good quality ·.graded lumber to increase the lul'!her inventory holdinF;s and consequently allow theT'I to meet Jarger Spr1n!( orders. It :Is anticipatec1 that as a result of the proF;ramme, the share of the Ne .. ,foundland. lumber market suppl:l.er'l by local producers will he substantially jncreased. The programme is the first step in a 2907

''arc h 12, 1976 Tape 1101 lB-3 t'T'. tUN nFIC.AN: series of clevelopin t, policies that "W-ill during the next t~•elve D!Onths hopefully place the sawmill industry in this Province in a much more stable position. The assistance programme for sawmills will be ~vailable to sa~flls with a current license,em ployi ng a ~unlified ~rafer and authorized to use the Yaritime L~ber Burea u grade stamp 2908

March 12, 1976 Tape no. 1102 Page 1 - mw Mt Lundrigan. ObvioU8ly, as I am indicating here, this is just the beginning of a programme of much more comprehensiveness. On application to the Department of Industrial Development and acceptance by the department all eligible sawmills can sell their existing inventories of rough lumber~or all of their rough lumber production and any rough lumber purchases from othP.r sawmills to the government - can sell it to the government.

All rough lumber purchased by government will become the property of the government but will remain at the mill site and the sawmills will be responsible for its physical custody and control. The duration of the programme will be from March 16 - I believe that is Tuesday coming - to May 31, 1976. The programme will be restricted to cert~n sizes of rough lumber and the prices paid for such lumber will remain fixed. All of the details on the

schedule of prices per thousand foot of various grades of lumber have been determined, and we have worked out a very excellent relationship with our forestry people so that we can expedite this programme immediately. MR. NEARY: Ara . ~ou going to buy all the lumber? MR. LUNDRIGAN: I would like to say in essence as well, Mr. Speaker, that we are working very closely with the Association of the Newfoundland Lumber Producers, and we are meeting with them today to finalize some of the details.

The programme will allow all the mills - I think there are about th~rty larger mills that will qualify - to participate in the programme. They will have the right to repurchase lumber sold to government until July 15, 1976 at a very small increase in price which is a small administrative fee. If the sawmill opts not to repurchase the lumber, the lumber will be the property of government and will be disposed of as necessary, and all the mills have to agree that they will dress, grade and stamp the lumber for a pre-set fee.

And I would like to indicate that applications to participate in the programme can be sent to my department - of course, the addresses are known - and 2909

March 12, 1976 Tape no. 1102 Page 2- mw Mr. Lundrigan. we have written all of the people involved today, alerted them of the programme and asked them to immediately make application to the department for assistance. We know it is a little bit late in the season but we felt it was much more proper to have the programme in place this year. It will be of some substantial assistance.

We hope that within twelve months from now, less than that 1 or within seven or eight months from now, working with my colleague, the Minister of Forestry, we can develop a more comprehensive programme that will be of minimum cost to government and maximum assistance to the industry. SOME RON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: You are going to have to do better than that. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Have you not got any more confidence than that? MR. ROBERTS: Regarding the hon. gentleman, no. SOME HON. MEMBE.RS:- ·oh;-Oh! . ----- - -- ---·----- MR. ROBERTS: Not in that bon. gentleman, no. JIR.

SPEAKER: The bon. member for Lewiaporte. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleagues, I would like to say a few words in connection with what the minister has just announced. Of course, I can always say it is a little late for doing this, and we would have liked to have seen it done sooner. Sir, the sawmill industry, I think, in Newfoundland can and obviously will improve during the next few months and the next few years. In my district in particular there are a lot of sawmills.

They seem to be doing fairly well, although there is the perennial proplem of being strapped for capital and that kind of thing and part of this now,- I hope, will be alleviated. There is only one thing I would like to mention more in connection with this , and that is that I noticed ther~ are going to be thirty mills. This is going to be exclusively to thirty. That is probably a good thing, Sir . I would want to look at it a little further 2910

March 12, 1976 Tape no . 1102 Page 3 - mw Mr . lilhi te. betore saying whether or not it is indeed a good thing. But it seems to me that there are indeed too many sawmills i.n Newfoundland, in many instances, and in too many places the compet:iti9n is too heavy .and because it is going to be limited to those thirty mills· 'it might indeed be a good thing. And I would like to compliment the minister on bringing this in today. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. membet for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I offer the minister my most cordial and hearty congratulations. ·SOME RON. MEMB.ERS: Hear, hear.!

MR • .SMALLWOOD: This is exactly the sort of thing that a government in Newfoundland today ought to be doing. I rf!lllelllber tha.t a colleague of mine in my eabinat called a conference of sawmill people in Newfoundland, and we brought together - I forget - several hundre.d people from all about the Province to consider the pTOblems of the sawmill industry, and it was truly a revelation, When ther.e wfte about 1,400 sawmills on this Island, the wage of a carpenter was twenty-five or thirty cents an hour in building a house or any other structure, 2911

March 12, 1976 Tape 1103 PK- 1 Mr . Smallwood: and at twenty-five cents or thirty cents an hour, of course, you could afford to use boards that were eight or ten feet long, and three and a half, four, four and a half, five inches wide. You could afford to use that kind of lumber employing men to nail it up at twenty-five cents, thirty cents, thirty-five cents, forty cents an hour. But, Sir, at $4, $5, $6 an.hour you just cannot afford to use lumber of such diminutive dimensions.

Therefore the only hope and the only cure for the sawmill industry in our Province, short of having carpenters and construction workers go back to twenty-five cents, thirty cents, forty cents an hour for their work, short o'f that is to turn out a quality of lumber that builders can afford to buy, can afford to have carpenters at present wages, and do the aailing on it. That is why I assume that the number in this plan, this excellent plan is thirty-Odd sawmills.

And I assume that the standards, the minimum standards of quality will be high, would be much too high for the average small "Push-plane oj!eration turning out three thousand or four thousand or five thousand, eight thous~d, ten tho.usand superficial board measure feet of lumber a year. I use these terms glibly not from personal acqu,intance but from the fact that I inherit in my very blood an interest in sawmilling as my own grandfather had the first sawmill in Bonavista Bay, at Gambo where I was born, and the first steam operated sawmill ever, anywhere in this Province or the country of Newfoundland.

And certainly I think that any outharbour man in Newfoundland today, no matter who he is, if he is an outharbour man· -he must have- sawm-rlling in his blood, and will wish most ardently for the success of this plan the minister has announced to us here today. SOME RON. ~ffiMBERS: Hear, hear! 0 0 0 MR. SPEAKER: MR. CROSBIE: l'!R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. A statement, Mr. Speaker. We have reverted to Statements by Ministers. 2912

March 12, 1976 Tape 11('13 PK - 2 !1R. CROSBIE: I hope it will receive the endorsement of the House. And it will set a very P,ood precedent there. '1R. SMAr.urnnn: The hon. gentleman is going to resign? MR. CROSBIE: Well that is always in my mind, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: We know that. MR. CROSBIE: I think it would tip this House too much to one side if the gentleman from Bonavista and I t.rere on the same side. Anyway this is a statement I have to make today, Mr. Speaker, dealing with the question of electricity rates.

Following the announcement by the Premier on January 23 of a three month freeze on electricity rates, the government met with officials of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and of Newfoundland Light and Power Company Limited to review the situation with respect to electricity rates in the Province, and to review the impact of any proposed change in the wholesale rates for electricity charged by Hydro to Newfoundland Light.

As a result of this very careful review the government has proposed that Hydro reduce its original request for a new rate of 13.6 mils per kilowatt-hour effective April 1, 1976 to 12.2 mils per-kilowatt hour with the effective date for any such rate increase to be July 1, 1976 thereby extending the freeze on rates by a further two months.

In accordance with the contract for the surply of electricity to Newfoundland Light by Hydro entered into in June, 1967 and amended in January, 1975, Newfoundland Light will now have to submit this sup;gested rate to the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities for their examination and recommendation as to whether any additional cost of power to Newfoundland Light resulting from such change is reasonabie and prudent and properly chargeable by Newfoundland Light to its operating account. Under the agreement between Hydro and Newfoundland Light any proposed change of price becomes effective only after the 2913

March 12, 1976 Tape 1103 PK - 3 Board of Cqmmissione~ of Pub1i~ Utilities hae rttled on the matter. Hydro vi11 join in the application by Newfoundland l.ight to the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities and vil1 provide any information which the Public Utilities Commission may require to satisfy the Commission that the rate proposed is both reasonable and prudent and Hydro will appear befo re the Board \lith supporting documentation and give evidence in connection with its wholesale rate structure.

In this way a puuli c hearing will be held at which consumers and the general public or interested groups can appear and be fully informed as to the reasons vhy such a rate increase is necessary . Newfoundland Light has advised that the suggested rate of 12.2 mils per kilowatt - hour , an inc rease from the present rate of 9.7 mils per kilovatt -hour , if approved by the Public Utilities Commission, will mean a rate increase to the customers of Newfoundland Light of just under 9 per cent . The reason for that, by the vay, ~lr. Speaker, is that Newfoundland Light 2914

March 12, 1976, Tape 1104, Page 1 -- RH MR. CROSBIE: It buys power from Bowater Power and it generates some power of its own so that the rate increase would be nine per cent if approved. In connection with electricity rates generally it should be noted that the following subsidies have been paid to Hydro by the Government of Newfoundland since 1972 with respect to the contract entered into with Newfoundland Light.

In other words, this is the amount that is being required each year to make up the difference between the cost to Newfoundland Hydro of the electricity supplied under the contract and the price provided for in the contract. In the year ended March 31, 1972, $4.8 million; in the year ended ~larch 31, 1973, $4.7 million; in the year ended March 31, 1974, $6.1 million; in the nine months to December 31, 1974, $6.4 million; in the twelve months to December 31, 1975, $5.2 million.

Thus despite the change in the rates from six mils per kilowatt hour to 9.7 mils per kilowatt hour, effective April 1, 1975 the taxpayers of the Province through the government provided a subsidy of $5.2 million to Hydro to meet the losses suffered on the supply of electricity to Newfoundland Light during 1975.

It should also be noted that if the new rate of 12.2 mils per kilowatt-hour becomes effective on July 1, 1976 the government will still have to pay to Hydro $5.1 million on the contract between Hydro and Newfoundland Light during 1976 so that Hydro will at least receive its costs of supplying electricity to Newfoundland Light under that contract - no return on investment or anything. It is just its costs. If no rate increase: is received by Hydro the subsidy paid by the taxpayer through the government will have to increase considerably over 1975. It would be at least another $2 million to $2.3 million.

It is the intention of the government to introduce in the !louse of Assembly during the present session or early in 1977 legislation to require Hydro to become subject to the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities or some other regulatory agency for the approval of its rate 2915

~larch 12, 1976. MR . CROSBIE: Tape 1104 RH - 2 structure from time to time with respect to Newfoundland Light. The freeze on electricity rates will therefore remain in effect on July 1st and in the ~nterval Hydro and Newfoundland Light will be making application to the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities for the suggested increase to 12.2 mils per kilowatt-hour with full information to be given at public hearings before the Board. There are some copies here, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you. Mr.

Sp aker, it is a victory for the consumers of this Province but a small victory, Mr. Speaker, and one which will bring little joy or no joy at all to the people who are faced wi~h the prospect of yet another significant, . even a swingeing increase in their electricity bills. The fact remains, Hr.

Speaker, that we are still talking of a power rate that will have increased in the period between the first of April last and the first of July coming.- that is a period of fifteen months - of over 100 per cent from the then rate of six mils to the rate of 12.2 mils per kilowatt-hour which will be charged by the government owned corporation as of the first of July. The increase,in some rough figurin~, Mr. Speaker, in respect of the current increase is still twenty-seven per cent. MR. CROSBIE: 25.9. MR. ROBERTS: Well, I have it worked out at twenty-six point something.

The bon. gentleman has had a little more time to do it than I have because I - 291ii·A

''arch 12, 1976 Tape 1105 .]~. POBf.PTS: obvious} y 'bear~ the statement only when it ~las beinr; rea~. The hon. gentleman says 26 per cent? ~.,. Cl;'O~'lTE: ~'enty-Hve point n:lne. ~'T'. P(")RET'.TS: l'!ell he can Cl'!] J it 25.9 per cent. Everybo<l~· else, ~ir, ~dJl c;o.lJ :It 26 per cent. That is rour.hly t'·•o-thir<ls of the -ln.creaRe ,.,h:fch the Cabinet had formerly approved in the:lr secret move mRrle :In necemher. ~·r. Speaker, it will still mean that power IB-1 in this Province is going to be vastly more expensive.

Tt will mean that the consumers are askec1 tf' pay by the m:l.nister's f:lr:ures 9 per cent more on top of their bills ~·hich hRve a] ready ~one up 35 per cent 1.n the past year. That iR without relRt:lon at all to any further, these 1.75 per cent cost of service allowances wh:lch my frienc1 from LaPo:lle e•r. Neary) keep menUon:lnr;, the 1. 75 per cent that goes em from MOnth to month :in the c1eterm1nat:lon of the Public Tltilities Commission. MP., NEARY: It w:!ll p:o on ag11.in next Fail. H"-· T'OBFT'TS: The hon. gentleman from LaPoile O•r. Neary) says it ~r:lll r.o on nr:ain next Fall. Jt well may.

I am not at all sure that those increases shouJ<l not he banned by legislation and that the hoar~ shoul~ not be required to hold hearinp:s before approving :lnereases :Instead of holding a hear.:l.ng and providinp: increl'tses of that nature. Tlut that :f.s another story ancl we wHl have ;m opportunity to c1ebate that. }'r. Speaker, all I can say right now is thRt I think everyhoily in the T'rmrince 'dll he ~:l. sappointed by th:f.s announcement. They l'ere n~·are o:F the fact that the Prell'ier had frozen the increase ••hich the rovernment hl'td proposed.

They '"ere a'.rare of the fact that the ll'inister hac1 sa-lcl time and tiMe ag;dn that the matter would be rev:lewed, and no•• 1t comes out thRt the poi.nt of the review is Fltill that the increase •riU be roup.hJ y t~.ro-thj rds of thRt which wns as keel for before. It will stilJ be welJ over 25 per cent. It wilJ be nearly 26 per cent of an incre~se an~ that :Is on top of the increases which carne a year past. 2916

!'arch 12, 1976 Tape 1105 IB-2 Yll. 1>JlBET'TS: Mr. Speaker, the only other co1'1!llent I would make at this po:lnt is to say that while ,,,e welcome the minister's assurance that the povernment wiJJ place the Hydro Authority under some regulatory body as opposed to the present situation where it answers publicly to nobody at all - to whom 1 t may ans• ·Jer privately ts another story, pubU ely 1t RnsHers to nobony at all, it - }'P. NEAl'.Y: It ans• ,·ers to the Honse. ;.rp. "OBET>"'~: Jt cloes not answer. to the House, Sir. <? .

NEA:RY: Yes it noes. c·!i.th respect,it answers to the m:lntstry anc:'. the min:! stry ans•1er to the Jlouse but the ministry are an impenetrable - ,., "'I"BP. .. TS: l<le could bring Mr. Groom in here . l'r. Spe aker, we could bring anybody before the House, as my TlC1n. friend knows 1 if the government would approve of it. ~'1'. m:t_T>Y: Jlo, not really. t'l'. " I"IIT::"TS : ''Tell the problem is, ~<r. Speaker, that it takes a mD.jority reso1ution. I{R. S fAJ..LHOOD: They can pass it, the l!lajorHy; '"'• PQBEnT": The government party, the government anc:' their supporters in the I1ouse.

The min:lstry are an impenetrable vmll on matters of this. They have chosen not to bring the authorities before the House so that mel'lbers of the Ilouse coul c1 investigate them or ask them questions or determine the riRhts and ~.;rongs of the situation. llnt, .ns I was saying, :Mr. Speaker, we welcome the fact that the government say they are goinr: to bring this authority under public control. That is a step forward. The minister's predecessor however, Mr.

Leo Barry, while he was Minister of 11ines and Energy) saicl essentially the same thing ti!'le and time aga:!.n over the lnst t ><o or three years, and as yet no action has resulted. !Ill that I can say, S:lr, fs that I hope the action results quickly. I hope it results very quickly. I tl1ink the people of Ne~~foundland, Sir, have come to the point not'' where they are not going to bear any further price increases without be:lng shown ample and adequate justification 2917

"arch 12, 1976 Tape 1105 IB-3 YT'. 1'0Bli"TS: for them. Fith all respect, Sir, the m:lnister to date h;;s shown neither amp] e justifi cat:l.on nor ac1equate .iust:f_fication. He has mac1e R change. Jle has made a retreat as the result of h:ls review, but, S:lr, I clo not th:lnk he has yet met the concern expressed by the thousanc1s and thousands and thousands of people who have petitionec1 this House protesting aga:lnst further electricity increases. 'IT'.. NE.A.T>Y: They are he:lng :lenored. The public is beinp; ignored. }~ . SPEAKER: The han. member for Tw:!Jl:lngate. }'Y. S"ALUmnn: }'r .

Speaker, I confess to he:lng a little puzzled by the tabJ e thEtt the han. minister gave us when he says that in the years enrin~ ~·arch 31, 1972 and 1973 and 1974 and to the end of necembe-r 1 CJ75, that in those years the NevTfoundland Govemroent sold eJectr:lc:lty to this private company, the Newfoundland L:frht and Po~1er Company, at a heavy loss each year of a total of $27 rn:lll:lon;' $4.R m:llJ:I<'n; $4.7 mill:lon; $6.1 miJJion; $6.4 million; $5.2 million, a total of $27.25 million. /md that furthermore on top of that :In the per:lor coming to the first of July of this current financial year it t-1:1 J J be another $5 million to be contributed to Newfoundland Lip;ht anc1 Pm,er making a total of $32 mUlion that the NeHfoundland government take out of the public chest and hand over in effect to Newfoundland T"ight and Power by allowing the government 1 s own power agency, the Newfoundland H.yrlro, to sell the power to Newfoundland Light for a total of $32 m:lllion less than :f_t cost Newfoundland Hydro to proc1nce.

Now, that is the :Impression I get and I wonder if the '':ln:lster would conf:frm that. Then, secondly, may I ask hi.m whether the sale of this electr1c1t y - MR. SIMMONS : 'J'bi.s is not :In order, :l.s it? vn. S"ALLH00n: - to Newfounc1lanc1 L:lght and Pm.rer includes the 2918

March 12, 1976. MR. SMAI,LWOOD: Tape 1106 RH - 1 arrangement made by my administration some years back in connection with rural electrification.

In a good many instances we arranged with the Newfoundland Light and Power Company to go ahead and provide electrification in this, that or the other area of the Province, they doing it to our account, to the account of the Power Commission,now known as Newfoundland Hydro, and a cash amount being paid under that arrangement by the government, by the Power Commission to the Newfoundland Light and Power to make up the difference between what it w~s costing them to deliver to the customers and what the customers were paying.

In other words, the heavy subsidy that the government agreed openly and gladly at the time to contribute to the customers down in White Bay and on the St. Barbe Coast and in Labrador and in other isolated and remote rural areas to whom we were supplying electricity, not at cost but substantially below cost, the government subsidizing the cost of the electricity but doing it through Newfoundland Light and Power Company in a good many cases. Is that included in these figures totalling $32 million for one, two, three, four, for five years? That is over $6 millions, an average of over $6 million a year.

Is the subsidization of rural electrification included in that subsidy that is over and above? In other words, Mr.

Speaker, I gather now from the minister's head shaking, his negative reply by head shake, I gather that this money, this $32 millions contribution by the taxpayers of Newfoundland through the government, through the government's agency, Newfoundland Hydro, that this $32 million is a gift, is a contribution of the Newfoundland people to Newfoundland Light and Power Company and that if that is ceased, if the government cease to pay it, Newfoundland Light and Power will put up their rates accordingly and where they now get in five years $32 millions from the Newfoundland Govern1rent, they will then get the same amount from the Newfoundland people by increasing their bill.

Is that the position? In other words, is it not six of one and half a dozen of the other? If the Newfoundland people as taxpayers subsidize the Newfoundland Light and Power Company,or if they do not subsidize them and the Newfound­ land Power Company collected from the people, is it not coming from the pockets of the people in any case, in both cases? 2919

}larch 12, 1976. Tape ll06 RH - 2 MR. NEARY: Right. That is right. HR. F. WRITE: Cape St . Nary 's pays for all . NR. SMALLWOOD: I do not know if the rules of the Rouse, Hr. Speaker, w·ill permit the minister to take his feet again and explain these things to us ~ because we do need to have the explanation. ~!R.

SPJtAKER: I will add here the former rulin g, that hon. members torere entitled to make comments and ask questions of explanation should do so in one opportunity, I did not add , but certainly it is my opinion t hat since an hon. member is entitled to ask questions of explanation then obviously a minister is the.n entitled to answer them . MR. CROSBIE: thi s, Well, Mr. Speaker, then the answer to those questions is 2920

March 12, 1976 Tape 1107 PK - 1 Mr. Crosbie: that the amounts paid each year are of no assistance at all to Newfoundland Light and Power Company Limited. These yearly amounts are amounts paid to Newfoundland Hydro to make up to Newfoundland Hydro for the loss - MR. SMALLWOOD: So they can sell it at a low cost to - MR. CROSBIE: to Newfoundland Light and Power who can - MR. SMALLWOOD: But how can we say it is not helpin~ them? MR. CROSBIE: Well, Mr. Speaker, just let me explain. Newfoundland Light and Power, Mr. Speaker, gain nothing from that, because that is passed on to their customers.

It is their customers that save the amount of the subsidy, because they are not allowed by the Public Utilities Board, they are only allowed to charge for the electricity they supply what the Public Utilities Board permits them. And they only permit them to pass on the exact price that they pay Newfoundland Hydro for power. So that the subsidy is a subsidy - the subsidy is one that helps - MR. SMALLWOOD: It has got to be for the customers. MR. CROSBIE: To the customers.

So in other words the people who buy power from Newfoundland Light and Power are getting it cheaper than they would otherwise get it, and the taxpayer, or the general taxpayer is providing the money to do that. That in our opinion is wrong, Mr. Speaker, because a person who gets the service should pay what it costs. So the subsidy is not one that helps Newfoundland Light. It is a subsidy that helps their customers who pay less for power than they would otherwise have paid. And the reason why the subsidy is paid, Mr.

Speaker, is that in 1967 the Power Commission entered into a contract with Newfoundland Light for a ten year period to supply power at 6 mils per kilowatt•hour,which was a reasonable rate in those days based on the cost of electricity in the Province coming in from Bay d'Espoir, without any provision in the contract for escalation. Since there was no provision for escalation ·;since the cost of the Power Commission then started to increase each year as we got into the 1970's, with increased in-terest rates, and increased use of the thermal plant at 2921

March 12, 1976 Tape 1107 PK- 2 MR. Crosbie: Holyrood, and thereby using oil and so on, and increased costs, their costs started goins up on the system, they could not pass them on to Newfoundland Light and Power because they had entered into a contract binding for ten years at 6 mils. However last year the subsidizes were beginning to get larger and larger -last year Newfoundland Light agreed to change that contract - HR. NEARY: You forced them to break your agreement. Brute force! They agreed to change that contract, Mr. Speaker, so that - there was not any brute force involved, Mr. Speaker. MR.

NEARY: It was brute force! You threatened to cut off their aceess to power. HR. CROSBIE: I am trying to answer. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ~OSBIE: Agreed to change in the contract, Mr. Speaker, becasue !1R. SPEAKER: Order! ----.-- HR. CROSBIE: they saw that if they did not - it was the only sensible thing to do - that in 1977 there would have to be such a horrendous jump iri power rates in one year that it would be too great a shock for anyone to bear. The increase in that year would have to be 200 per cent or 300 per cent or 400 per cent.

So it is obviously more sensible to have gradual increases leading up to that period, and the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro agreed to enter into a longer term contract with them, and that contract gives the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities-before any new rate can come into effect they must find it prudent and reasonable for Newfoundland Light to charge that to their customers. ~B-OBERTS: Does the contract vary in statute? HR. CROSBIE: No the contract cannot vary statute. HR. HICKl'IAN: No. MR. ROBERTS: It is specifically barred - HR. HICKMAN: Oh, yes, but it can be done. 1\R.

CROSBIE: That is the provision. Newfoundland Light does not have to pay this increased rate unless the Utilities Commission first 2922

March 12, 1976 Tape 1107 PK - 3 Mr. Crosbie: finds it reasonable and prudent. MR. HICKMAN: Right. MR. CROSBIE: Now, Mr. Speaker, this has nothing to do with the subsidy on - MR. SMALLWOOD: How much is that? }ffi. CROSBIE: rural electrification. HR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, how much? MR. CROSBIE: The amount in the year that is just ending now will be aroun~ $9,600,000 that the Province - MR. ROBERTS: How much will ERCO pay? MR. CROSBIE: will pay. No that is not ERCO. SOME llON. ~!EMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.

CROSBIE: The Province will pay in the year that ends the end of this month around $9.5 million which is a subsidy on the rural electrification programme, that is the diesel areas and the rural areas of the Province where they still have diesel systems or the rural electrification system. That is a difference between the re~enue they are collecting in rates through the REA and what their costs are for supplying that. MR . SHALLWOOD: Does this mean - would the minister say that this means - I know I am not allowed to - MR. CROSBIE: Yes. HR. SM.ALLWOOD: One question, one answer.

But does this mean that the public purse, the treasury.,now is finding - MR. CROSBIE: MR. SHALLWOOD: MR. CROSBIE: MR. SMALLWOOD: ~rn.. CROSBIE: }1R. SMALLWOOD: MR. CROSBIE: l1R. NEARY: $15 million. $15 millions subsidy on the price of electricity? Yes, Mr. Speaker. Nine million for rural and six million for the other? Right. Not counting ERCO. That is right, Mr. Speaker, not counting ERCO. Just wanted to wipe out the $6 million. l-ffi. CROSBIE: When we add in ERCO, and the Bowater contract, and the Price contract it is about another $5 million. So that is around 2923

Harch 12, 1Q76 Tape 1107 PK - 4 HR . CROSni F.: altogether ero~nd $1~ million to $20 million being paid in electricity subsidies this year out of the public treasury. HR. NEARY: -----·- Is this going to ~dpe out the $6 million altogether even ~~ith the increase? 2924

March 12, 1976 Tape no.l108 Page 1 - mw MR. CROSBIE: No, with the increases suggested for July 1, we will still have to pay, in the calendar year 1976 -.this is an estimate because it depends on how much power is going to be used and how much oil has to be used - the estimate is $5.1 million despite the increase. In the year after this, however - MR. NEARY: It has almost doubled. Why is it? MR. CROSBIE: - when the increases are in effect for a whole year, then the deficit should be that much less .­ MR. SHALLWOOD: You did not tell them. MR. CROSBIE: - unless costs increa!e that much higher.

MR. ~ALLWOOD: You goofed, you goofed. MR. CROSBIE: So it is not a gift that Newfoundland Light - and it is has nothing to do with Rural !lec~rification. It has to do only with this contract to Newfoundland Light, which the Province feels that now there has to be an increase. It is not reasonable to expect taxpayers to continue meeting these costs. It is the user. Unless the user is faced with these - MR. NEARY: Well, they are the taxpayers. MR. CROSBIE: - costs he is not going to attempt, Mr. Speaker, to conserve electricity or to save on the usage to keep the bills down. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker - MR.

SPEAKER: The han. member may not coDD!Ient. He does not have the right to speak on a ministerial statement. MR. ROBERTS: No, although it has turned into a little poll. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, this is on a point of information only. I am sure the House will be relieved to learn that an aircraft has spotted the lifeboat from The Cape Freels There are people on board it, and a ship called The Hudson is being directed to the spot. SOME RON • MEMBERS: Hear, hear: 2925

March 12, 1976 Tape no. 1108 Page 2 - mw PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEJ.KER: The hen. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, with perhaps a degree of trepidation, but with some confidence in the essential rightness of the cause, in the li~ht of the minister's statement I wish to present yet another of the petitions protesting against the rise in electricity rates, and this one, Sir, besides being somewhat unusual in the form, coming as it does on yellow cardboard is unusual in that it has been submitted to me by a Parish Priest, Father Patrick J. Kennedy of St.

Agnes Parish in Pouch Cove in the district of St. John's East Extern. Father Kennedy's letter is quite straightforward. He says - it is addressed to me - "I enclose a petition against further increases in electricity rates from members of the parish in Flatrock." The petition, Sir, is signed by - it is two parts - by I would estimate about 150 to 200 people who live in Pouch Cove and in Shoe Cove and in Flatrock. The first name on it is the Reverend Father Patrick J. Kennedy who is, of course, the priest in that parish. The point of the petition, Mr. Speaker, is obviously t9 protest increased electricity rates.

Indeed it says so quite clearly, as it sav~. petition to protest increased electricity rates. New, Mr. Speaker, in presenting it I wish to say a word or two in support of it. First of all, Mr. Speaker, I would wish to say that in my view, as I said a moment or so ago commenting on the minister's statement, the concession which the government have made will not make or not meet the point raised by these petitioners or by the thousands of other people in every part of Newfoundland and Labrador, who have made si~ilar petitions to this House in the last few weeks.

Secondly, I wish to say that it is our very strong hope on this side that the government will go the extra step now that they have agreed to place the Hydro under the Public Utilities Board for regulatory purposes,or some similar board, but let us say, the Public Utilities Board, because 2926

March 12, 1976 Tape no. 1108 Page 3 - mw Mr. Roberts. that . is the one which the minister indicated. I would hope the government will go the step further and allow the groups Who wish to oppose that Increase to oppose it effectively and to oppose it realistically. Mx. Speaker, u we all know the Publie Utillties 9Pmmission is a semi-judicial or a quasi-j~Qicial bo4y,'and it f:uncti .ons in an adversary proceeding. It is no·t an investigatory body in this sense. Aa I understand it, it is essentially a b "ody whieb decides upon the evidence placed before it. And what we now get :ts a stJectac.le of any number of &tJplic.ations coming in and the companies having the very best 2927

11arch 12, 1976. HR. ROBERTS: Tape 1109 RI-l - 1 legal talent they can find and the very best talent in economists and accountants and advisors and experts of every sor~--the cost of all of t~hom,I would point out, Mr. Speaker, are born in full measure by the consumer in the long run because, of course, these costs are built in to the company's costs of doing business- and they present their evidence, and all of the skill and in~enuity they can devise goes into supporting and bolsterinp. the case.

On the other hand,a consumer group or a municipalities' group tvho 1dsh to oppose an increase are reduced to hiring perhaps a lawyer or an· accountant or an expert of some sort 1vho has little enough time to research the case, little enow~h time to become expert. The result is that in my submission the adversary proceeding is not a very fair one. Those wishing to get an increase have all the aces and the kings and the queens and the iacks on their side,while the consumers are left with the deuces and the threes,and the deuces are not wild.

Hr, Speaker, what I would suggest to the government is that they fund on a pennanent basis a consumer r;roup or a coalition of consumers' groups with a view to having the Public Utilities Commission function effectively in its adversary way. If we are going to have continuing increases,and they have come much more rapidly the last few months and the last few years than ever before, then let us make sure that these companies are kept on their toes. The Public Utilities Commission as it now exists ann as it now functions- and this is not a criticism of the members of that Commission.

They do very, very well in a difficult position- it is a criticism of the structure which I believe has become inadequate. Let us go the step further. The consumer pays the shot anyway, }!r. Speaker, because if the Light and Power Company pay an expert $5,000 to come and to advise them, then, Hr. Speaker, that is built into their costs and that is right out of the pockets of the consumers. So let us make it possible for the consumers to have somebody there, Hr. Speaker, who speaks for them, not somebody who speaks simply for the company,because we all know that he who pays the piper calls the tune. 2928

March 12, 1976. MR. ROBERTS: Tape 1109 RH - 2 Mr. Speaker, I present the petition. I could say a great deal more in support of it. I would hope we will get the opportunity to debate this matter in this session. But I present it, Mr. Speaker, with my strong support and with the very strong request and suggestion to the minister that the government go that extra step.

If they can put $20 millions a year into power subsidies in this Province as they now are, and part of that will be saved because of the increase which the consumers apparently are going to have to bear, then let them take $50,000 or $100,000 and fund some consumer group - maybe the Federation of Nunicipalities will be the people - and let them challenge effectively and with knowledge and with skill the case put forward by those who wish increases. The present system, Sir, does not work to protect the consumer. It works merely to help the companies.

I think that is not what was intended and it is certainly not what we should tolerate. I support the petition, Sir. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I rise to support the prayer of the petition prese~ted by the Leader of the Opposition, Sir. In so doing I have to say, Sir, that this is a sad day indeed for Newfoundland.

In the last week or ten days, Sir, at least 50,000 signatures of Newfoundlanders who are completely frustrated over any increase in electricity rates in this Province, the names of about 50,000 Newfoundlanders, most of them presented by me, have been tabled in this hon. House vi~lently protesting any increase in electricity rates. Now today we hear this announcement by the l1inister of ~fines and Energy, Sir, which will turn out to be a bitter disappointment to the people of this Province. }lr. Speaker, there is not much I can say about it at the present time.

I tdll have more to say about it later or, except to say that the only recourse now, Sir, the only recourse is not what the Leader of the Opposition outlined in presenting the petition to finance consumer groups. The consumers, the ordinary working people of this Province,do not have the time to go down hefore the Public Utilities Board. 2929

ltarch 12, l!J7(l . Tape 110 ~ RH - J t•r:. r.OBP.RTS: That is the whole point about it. 1(~ . NF:A~Y: ~ lo, they do not hav~ the tin~e, Sir. Even if they were fi.nanced they would not have the time . The Public Utilit:i.es Board in t h is case is j ust merely a rubber st8l!lll for the government. The real. power should have been kept in the hands of the politicians. l!R . SPEAKF.R: Order , please ! Order, please ! I must remind the hon. r,entlema n that he is required to keep his rel!larks trl.thin the specific subject matter of the petition ~n d the material allegations of the petition. ~lR .

NEARY: lvell, Sir, the Leader of the Opposition spent some time on tlie Public Utrilities tloard. I would feel that I am entitled to the same ri ~;ht. B4t if Your llonou1: does not think so, Sir, the only thing that I can say - I 1Jill wind up by saying this. I know I cannot enter into a debate at this time. I wish I could. r will have an opportunity durinR the TI1rone Speech to debate this matter. But, Sir, this bon. crowd will pay the price at the polls 2930

"arch 12, 1976 Tape No, 1110 ~- 1 ?.IF.. NEARY: the next time the people of this Province get a chance in a provincial general election,! can guarantee you that. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. }finister of Mines and Energy. MR. C~0SBIE: "r. Speaker, this is another petition of course in cC'nnection ~~ith f!lectricity rates and I ~rill just confine myself to a couple of the points that the Leader of the Opposition has made. Nmv, 1--'r.

Speaker, it should be noted of course by the Rouse,and when this matter is debated it will certainly be pointed out to the House,that increases in energy charge~ · or electricity charges in Newfoundland have been the third lowest of any Province in Canada when you take the period from 1966 to 1975, The :Lncreases in Ne•rfoundland are the third lowest of any Province. There are seven provinces which have had increases in electricity rates greater than that in this Province.

And ~vhen you compare the last five years, just take the last five years, once again Newfoundland,where you compare the main cities,has had the third lowest :_·has had seven provinces with increases in electricity rates higher than in this Province,and that is not a bad record, lath respect to the Board of Commissioners cf Public "Ut:!lities,­ ~. NEARY: You are talking about hydro power. ~ '!!. CP.0SBIE : - it is not true to say, ~!r. Speaker - The consumers of Newfoundland already have representatives on the noard . of Commissioners of Public Htilities. That is what the Board is. Mr. C .I·/.

Powell, the Chairman,is admired on all sides for his tremendous talent and hard work - ~'!! . N E~~Y : Do not be trying to lead us off the track. }W .• CROSBIE: - and the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities has, ••r. Speaker, the power and they have hired the most capable of lawyers - }:1'1 . NEARY: This is just a runaround. 1·fR . CROSBIE: The Board has a lawyer, Mr. Don Dawe, Q.C., who ·has been with the Board since the beginning and whose job, Mr. Speaker, is to advise the Board on every application and to represent the public at every application.

And they have Peatt 1farwick, ?'itchell, chartered accountants, who 2931

! 1arch 12, 1"7" Tape No. 1110 ~~. CROSBIE: .on behalf of the public and the consumer and the Board examine every application and advise the Board and they have the power, !~r. Speaker, and they retain the best of engineering consultants to examine every application that comes before the Board, The ~:onsumers of Ne,vfoundland, the public of Newfoundland is already represented by the best, hy the best talent imaginable who assist the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities. The hon.

Leader of tl'e Opposition referred to the best legal talent, tha:t the companies have the best legal talent, Is he casting some doubt on the legal talent of his former House Leader, the former member for Baie Verte, "r. l·!illiam ~'owe - ?fll.. ROBERTS: ~m. CROSBIE: Is the hon. gentleman casting - - who acts for tl-e Newfoundland Federation of ~'unicipalities on these applications? Is he saying that the legal talent that the compantes have are better than Bill Rowe's legal talent? HJ'. NEAr.Y: Would the minister permit a question? ?'1'.

CR0SBT.E: I uould suggest that this is a very unfair attack, unfair attack upon his former House Leader to suggest that his legal talent is not just as good as that of the companies. 'ffi. NEARY: Houlrl the han. minister permit a question'? ~'fl'. Cl'.OSnu:: No, Hr. Speaker, I do not want to permit a question, '~. NEARY: No ,because you are cornered. lfJ', . CROSBIE: It •vould he a sad day, }1r. Speaker, for this Province if the government did everything just thinking of the polls, Thatwould be the route of the polecat. The members who suggest that we should do nothing - l'!R. NEARY: What have you done? Nothing!

And you will keep on doing it! ~'P. CROSBIE: - that if energy costs and electricity costs rise that we Rhould c'ontinue to ignore that because we may suffer at the polls, that is a poor piece of advice. We will leave that with the hon. gentlemen opposite, Every government has to be conscious of the polls, 2932

l~iuch 12, 1976 Tape No. 1110 NM- 3 ~- · CROSBIE: but there are certain unpleasant decisions that every government in Canada has to make today,and every State in the United States of America~and I would like to point i out too Mr. Speaker, ·that energy costs in Europe and the rest of North Ametica had gone up much more than in this Province. So, Mr. Speaker, it is an unfortunate situation but any government that is worth its salt has to face the facts and unfortuaately the people of the Province have to be asked to face them too. MR.

NEARY: Pay the price for that group of misfits, Mr .Groom and the rest of the1r. }1R, SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Social Services. MR.. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present :. well,it is not really a petition. 'MR. SPEA.RF,R: It has to be a petition. HR. BRETT: Well it is called a petition but it is not in the form of a petition as such. It was handed to me by an employee of one of the local radio stations,and when I received it I likened it to St. Peter who came before one that was much greater than he.

And this. is colldng before the petition that has been circulated in the districts of Trinity North, all of Trinity North, part of Bonavista South and part of the district of Bellevue in connection with the proposed Clarenville Hospital. It is a very well-organized and well-planned campaign in these areas now aided and abetted very much by the same radio station. It is not a prayer as such, It is more or less a written mutual agreement by thirteen doctors . who are practicing on the Bonavista Peninsula, and in the Clarenville area. And I will read it. It says; "In addition to our present medical and 2933

March 12, 1976 Tape no. 1111 Page 1 - mw Mr. Brett. dental facilities We, the undersigned, agree that these facilities would be vastly improved by the presence of a des~erately needed regional hospital in our area,thereby alleViating unneeded hardship to sick people. As human life is involved in this matter, we feel no delay is warranted in the construction of a regional hospital! 1 As this time, Mr. Speaker, I will not do any more than support it because of the large petition that is coming, and I would like to make some lengthy comments on that petition at that time.

In the meantime I would like to table this and ask that it be referred to the appropriate department. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could say a word or two in support of the petition and in so doing perhaps I should point out to the bon. member for Trinity North (Mr. Brett) that it was not St.

Peter who went before, as I recall the biblical account, it was John the Baptist, that I would say to the bon. gentleman he shouia beware of what happened to 3ohn the Baptist and particularly he should be careful if he is asked to any dances in his district within the next little while. As I recall it St. Peter was, among many other things - St. Peter - a very central figure in the church as we now know it, the Christian Church, thrice denied the Lord, and I would commend that to the bon. gentleman as well. Mr. Speaker, I would wish to add our voice in supp.ort of the petition.

There will be an opportunity to cOlllllll!nt at s·ome greater length, I would hope, when the more massive petition comes in that radio station VOCM - CKVO are organizing, as they tell us every hour, five minutes before the hour • And I have no doubt that there will be a considerable number of members who wish to enter into the non-debate which will take place on that petition when it is to be presented. 2934

March 12, 1976 Tape no. 1111 Page 2 Mr. Roberts. All I would say right now, Mr. Speaker, is tha~ -­ I think, the government are going to have to rethink their entire position on hospital construction. Last Summer and last Fall and last Spring they went about the Province promising a positive orgy of construction. There were going to be buildings here and buildings there and buildings everywhere. The member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) was then Minister of Health, and I fear he was guilty of participating in this charade. A number of other hon. gentleman took

part in sod turnings or ;latform buildings,and certainly a lot of people, in a lot of places, in this Province expected that the commitments made to them by members of the government were made in good faith and that they would be kept. They may or may not have been made in good faith, I am prepared to believe that the gentleman from Kilbride (Mr. Wells) would not act other than in good faith, but I do feel that many people are sorely disillusioned now that these commitments are not being kept.

And the petition from the area that takes in the bottom of Bonavista Bay and the bottom of Trinity Bay and all that great peninsula between those two bays and the town of Clarenville and down as far a8 the hospital catchment area will come, can be duplicated easily on the Burin Peninsula where people there feel deceived and deprived,and people in Labrador who are anything but happy about the government's decision to close, as a hospital, as an accute care facility, the Paddon Hospital in Happy Valley and move the · -~iittri up on the American base, the former base hospital, and a n~er of other areas that I could speak of throughout the Province.

The government, Mr. Speaker- ,and I would commend this to the minister, because he is a part of the government and must sink or swim with his colleagues in the Cabinet."-.the government must rethink this. The people deserve better treatment than they have gotten from the government, and I would say to the minister that they will get better treatment either from this government or from their successors. 2935

March 12, 1976 Tape no. 1111 Page 3 - mw ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, my initial question . will be for the Honse Leader in the absence of the Premier,who I understand is sampling the delights of Montreal or Quebec City today. Could the House Leader indicate . to us,please,the government's attitude with respect to the possibility that the Government of Canada might extend and increase their financial aid to the Olympics to be held in Montreal this Summer? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. MR.

WELLS: It is hardly a matter of provincial jurisdiction. I would not say it is not a matter of provincial concern, Mr. Speaker, but if the Government of Canada is, in its wisdom, deciding to extend further assistance to the Olympics, well then certainly we would not be otherwise than pleased, but I do not think it really concerns us. MR. CROSBIE: We want more for ~he Canada Summer Games. MR. WELLS: It really is, you know, so completely outside our jurisdiction that I feel 2936

~arch 12, 1976 Tape No. 1112 NM- 1 MR. WELLS: it hard to comment. Certainly this government has not held a meeting to discuss this matter and I doubt that we shall, }!r. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary; in view of the fact that we now have on the Order Paper at least one resolution that is a matter entirely outside our jurisdiction but is certainly within · our concern, put down by the hon. gentleman's colleague from Grand Bank district (Mr. Hickman), you know,the minister's reply is evasive. Let me put it to him again.

Would this government support the application by the Government of Quebec to the Government of Canada for many millions of dollars more in increased financing towards the Olympics? It is a-matter of concern and it is a matter of deep concern, Sir. ~ . SP ~JCBR : The hon, Minister Without Portfolio, ~11! .• WELLS: !f it could be shown, and if it emerges that this government has a duty to consider this matter and make representations of any kind then we will consider it, you know,if called upon or if we feel it necessary,and take whatever action or make whatever representations we feel are proper.

But to this point we have not done so,nor do we see the need for it. ~m. CROSBIE: If they give us more. They have not given us any more for Public Works or DREE. MR. ROBERTS: I am not suggesting we should give more money, and I am not suggesting we should not. I want to see the government can take a stand. The Hinster of Justice did the other day. HR. SPRAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile.

A supplementary question to the hon. minister, Sir; if the hon. minister and the government here in Newfoundland-are called "Upon to support such a move,would the minister take advantage of the situation to try to persuade the ~vernment of Canada and the Government of Quebec to do away with its foolish, costly, biiingual programme that they are trying to push down the throats of Canadians. MR. WELLS: The answer to that, Mr. Speaker, is that the Government 2937

March 12, 1976 Tape No. 1112 Nl-' - 2 }'!R • . WELtS: of Newfoundland has its role and its jurisdiction which it attempts with good will and seriousness to carry out,and there are all sorts of problems that exist in this country that this government cannot get involved in. Citizens of Newfoundland who are also citizens of Canada can express themselves to the Government of Canada whom they elect also. ~'!R.

SPEAKER: Before I recognize the hon. gentleman for,I presume, a supplementary, I did not interrupt before because I 1.rished to check the reference,and I should now· draw to the att~ntion of hon, members that a question, oral or written,must not be hypothetical, a situation whlch does not exist but which conceivably could. I realize that a number of questions have been allowed 1have not been ruled out of order,which could well be regarded as hypothetical. I point it out now so that it would not appear that that rule has been left in abeyance, MF .• SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. ¥R. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister of Education tell the Rouse whether or not he is going to conduct an independent ~nquiry or an independent fact~finding study into the whole aatter of our education~! Rystem in Newfoundland, especially in the post secondary field of education in this Province? ~~. SPEAKE~: The hon. }!inister of Education. J.m. HOUSE: ~~r. Speaker, I have not given a lot of thought to it.

Of course we are always giving thought to the assessment of education,and higher education or post secondary education is governed by boards of directors, boards of regents and so on and they have the expertise to keep assessing their programmes. I would say off hand that perhaps one of the big problems in education at all levels is the fact that we are over assessed,and at the time I have not considered it as a top priority. The other thing I would have to take this part under advisement. I do not know exactly what the hon. member is referring to• Is it a roynl commission or an ad hoc committee?

And I think it would be a little hit presumptuous of me to assume that an ad hoc committee could deal with 2938

~•arch 12, 10.7fi Tape No. 1112 NM- 3 :1-'R. 'RotTSE: a problem so intricate as education. I further possibly think that he may be alluding to the, perhaps wllat people are talking about the lower standards of education - Ml!_. NEARY: That is right. ~. HOUSE: And I question that statement. I question whether educational standards are dro,ping. I think there is room for debate in it. SO~ HON. ME'!offlERS: Hear! Hear! !'ffi· SP~AKER: I recognize the hon. Leader of the Opposition. ·~.NEARY: A supplementary question to the minsiter, Sir.- J!R. SPEAKER: No.

Actuallywhen 1 recongized the hon. gentleman a few moments ago I had thought it 1<as a supplementary to his previous,so I will reconp;ize the hen. Leader of the Opposition and get back to the hen. member and the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans (~r. Flight), !!r.. NEARY: 'But I have a supplementary for the Minister of Education, ""·• SPEAKER: Hell ,the hen. gentleman may have one,but hav:!ng recognized one member I cannot negate that. ~1R. ROBERTS: Well, ~ 1 r. Speaker, I will y:leld for a supplementary, sure. :!R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~m.

NEARY: I merely want to ask the minister if he has received any complaints from school boards or from business people in this Province about the qu~lity and attitudes of graduates of our educational system. 2939

March 12, 1976 Tape no .1113 Page 1 - mw f1r, Neary. So would the minister tell the Rouse? HR. SPEAKER: The hon . Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult to say, you know. I have not only heard people in Newfoundland say that the standards are dl!opping, I have heard people saying on the mainland. AI! a matter of fact, the Chamber of Commerce, the president for Canada, made a statement the other day condemning education and its lowering standards.

The fact of the matter is, I think, you cannot give a brief answer to that, because I do not know how people can come up and say off-hand how low the standards are. I have not received any direct statement from any group saying the standard of education is down, be it either businessmen or professional people. MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

A question for the Minister of Health; Would the minister tell the Rouse,please 1whether the government have funded any study into the asbestos related or asbestos caused hazards at the Baie Verte mill operated by Advocate Mines Limited? MR, SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the subject to which the hon, Leader of the Opposition refers is a matter of some concern to government, not only the Department of Health but the Department of Mines and Energy and the Department of Provincial Affairs and Environment.

There are a number of studies and investigations - whatever one might call them - going on now. I am not in a position to say anything further at this time with regard to them. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Would the minister indicate whether the government would be prepared to finance, in part or in total for that matter, a study to be done by the most knowledgeable group in the world on these asbestos related hazards insofar as they affect the situation at Baie Verte? 294-0

March 12, 1976 MR. SPEAKER: MR. COLLINS: Tape no. 1113 The hon. Minister of Health. Page 2 Mr. Speaker, if the hon. Leader of the Opposition is again referring to the asbestos fibre content in water - MR. ROBERTS: No, I was not specifically talking about water, no. I am talking about the mill·mine situation, not the water itself. MR. COLLINS: Well, Mr.

Speaker, if the hon. member is not referring to water, what I can say is that there is a committee of ministers- the Minister of Mines and Energy, the Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment, the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations and the Minister of Health= 'already constituted and considering the whole problem there in conjunction with officials of the various departments and in collaboration With the various :. unions across the Province with the hope that we can identify the problems and determine what action must be taken. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: MR.

Speaker, I would like to address this question to the Minister of Energy. In his statement with regard to energy, the only reference made to the Newfoundland Light and Power Compan~- was reference of a contract between Hydro and Newfoundland Light. · ·noes Hydro have a contract with the Bowater Power Corporation, a contract that would allow them or permit them or force them to sell power to Bowaters? Can we assume that the increase permitted by Newfoundland Light will also be permitted by Bowaters1 _!{R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mine!i .. and Energy. MR.

CROSBIE: Bowater Power has a contract itself with Newfoundland Light to supply power to Newfoundland Light presumably on the West Coast . The Hydro Power Commission also has a contract with Bowaters. I am not sure if it is with Bowater Power but anyway either Bowater Power or the Bowater mill, but that is a separate matter, and no increase in the rate is contemplated there, at least ·not at the moment. So this only deals with Newfoundland Light and Power, MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. member for Winsdor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: The question,of course, Mr.

Speaker, is that every increase that has been applied by the Light and Power Company has been 2941

March 12, 1976 Tape no.lll3 ~age 3 - mw * ·• Flight. ·applied by Bwaters &l1d 8owaters supplies pwer to one of the biS!lest towns in C~t~l Newfoundland, d.omestic power~ to Buchan&, and thereby :ls 'lliY concern. I 8111 asking the minister if he cim. assure tb:l,a llppae that it is not necessary tlult tllat itlcrease Will be - ---- ·· ··- -·-pe:l:mit\ted by Bwa~s or necessary by BOWilters:. U so wh:(ch Would .D that the to'IID of Buchana would be getting electrlc:lty Dine per c~nt leas than the r-.at of the Island :tn JUly aaaWiing the ~c:r;eaae :la indeed approved by the Util:lty CQIIIII1aaion? 111il• SPEAKER: The bon. Mfniaqr of Mittea and Energy ·. .I would have 2942

March 12, 1976 Tape No. 1114 NM- 1 ~m. CROSBIE: to find out about that. I do not know the exact answer to that. But this would be an increase to Newfoundland Light, And whether Bowater power retails po~ver -if it retails power in Buchans, I assume only it can go for an increase there. They would have to have their rates approved themselves. But I would have to cheek it out to make sure. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Le;,Jisporte. !1R. !.ffiiTE: I have a question for the hon. the Government Rouse Leader, Mr.

Speaker, Caul~ the minister tell us whether or not the ~'inister of Tourism is gone to Spain, if so how long is he gone for, ~vhy is he ) gone and was it necessary for him to go7 HR. SPEA.'ICER: The hon. Minister Without Portfolio. }ffi. WELLS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Tourism has gone to Malaga which is the first official stop for the Norma' and Gladys which of course has arrived in Spain. There are various ceremonies involving I think the various ambassadors and dignataries and civic officials in Spain.

It was thought,and quite wisely,that the minister representing the Department of Tourism for the Government of Newfoundland should be there. He went I believe Thursday evening, He will be back here by Sunday evening or Monday when the House resumes and I think the last - 1--'R. S!!ALLT~onn: Mr. Speaker, can the minister tell me as to whether his colleague will bring back with him a report on the accuracy of II I ; the well known statement, The rains in Spain fall gently on the plain. '!R. WELLS: I thought it was, Fall mainly in the plain. 11 MR. SMALLWOOD: Mainly on the plain. ~1R.

WELLS: The rain in Spain falls mainly MR. ROBERTS: Malaga is on the sea coast. Mr .• WELLS: Malaga is on:·the coast 1 of course, yes. I am sure the hon. member will enlighten us when he returns. SONE HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! }1R. '~LS: The last part of the question I think, Mr. Speaker, was was the trip necessary. I think in the context of the voyage and the interest 2943

March 12, 1976, Tape 1114, Page 2 -- nm MR. WELLS: of people abroad who are taking an interest in this voyage, yes, I think we should be represented. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Justice, Sir, if he will tell the House who was at fault in the Wanda Butt case, in connection with the fire at MacPherson - was it MacPherson Academy? Was it the - MR. ROBERTS: Curtis Academy. MR. NEARY: Was it the Newfoundland Constabulary, was it the minister himself, was it his officials? If so, what steps have been taken to rectify this situation or will other charges be laid against this lady? 'MR.

HICK1fAN: Mr. Speaker, I question the propriety of that question. Number one, there has been no suggestion, no indication of fault on the part of any one, and - MR. NEARY: False - MR.. HICKMAN: - and, Mr. Speaker, anyone who has had any exposure to the law at all knows that from time to time charges are laid and subsequently have to be withdrawn and an investigation has been indicated by the Chief of Police and is still going on. MR.

SPEAKER: Before I recognize the han. gentleman for a supplementacy, I just want to point out to all hon. members, number one, that any matter sub-judice - I am not suggesting this is sub­ judice - is out of order, and to read from Beauchesne that an bon. member may not - I am not suggesting the hon. gentleman is, I am just saying that there is a fairly close line there - may not ask solution of a legal proposition, such as

interpretation of a statute of a minister's own powers. The han. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, a suuplementary question; who decided whether the charges would be withdrawn or dropped? Was it the Chief of Police or was it the Minister of Justice or his officials? MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, this - AN RON. MEMBER: Answer it. MR. NEARY: Answer the question, boy. MR; HICKMAN: It is such a well known fact that that type of question is 2944

Harch 12, 1976 Tape No. 1114 NM - 3 MR. RIC~: h ighly improper and I would be very derelict in my responsibility as Minister of Justice if I answered , and I do not Propose to. · t'R. NEARY: It is s proper question . AN RON. HEl•IBER: It is not. 'MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Windsor-Bilchans. HR . FLIGHT: '1-lr. Speaker , this question f e r the }liniste r of ~unicipal Affairs; no doubt the minister is aware now that the councils, Grand Falls Town Council, Windeor Town Council,have had the Patterson ~eport over th~winter.

They have addressed themselves to the report publicly as to what each to~~. each town's approach to the Patt~rson ~eport and its recommendations . Would the minister now advise the House as to what the government's position is with regards to the Patterson Repor t? 1-IR. SPEAKER: The hon. }linister of Municipal Affairs and Rousing. liiR. PECKFORD: 1-'r.

Speaker, I intend to meet ~lith the Town Council of H1.ndsor and the ';~:own Council of Grand Falls at the firat opportunity in the Spring to further discuss their s tance that they have given to me in writing and after consultation with both councils hopefully we can come up with a joint approach as to how the Patterson Report should be handled from here on in. 2945

March 12, 1976 Tape no. 1115 Page 1 - 1DW MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.. ROBERTS: Sir, a question for the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. Has the minister yet made a decision on the request for an industrial inquiry at Churchill Falls? He thinks slowly. Ma. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. MR. MAYNARD: No, Mr. Speaker, I have not. I said yesterday that I would make a decision sfter meeting with the management people from CFLCo. We were due to meet with them today, but because of the weather problems they have not been able to get in.

I understand that they may be here in St. John's tomorrow. So it will be at least Monday or Tuesday before a decision is made. MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. In view of the fact that the minister intends, as he told us now and yesterday, to meet with the management people, would he tell us whether he undertakes as well to get in touch with the union people before making a decision? which affects them just as intimately as it affects the management people? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Manpower and t•dustrial Relations. MR.

MAYNARD: That will depend on whether ' i: consid;r- it t~ ~ ·- ... necessary for information purposes to get in contact with the union people directly after we meet with the management people, whelm my deputy minister, Ted Blanchard,has been in almost constant contact with the union people in Labrador. We have a considerable amount of information from th~. We know what their feelings are, and what they would like to see done.

Now I think it is a matter of trying to contact management to see what their feelings are toward the situation and what their attitude is with regard to the future prospects for conciliation services or whatever. MR; SPEAKER: I recognize the bon. member for Stephenville and then the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. McNEIL: Mr. Speaker, a question to the hon. House Leader. Is it still goverament's intention to disband the Department of Recreation and Rehabilitation? Ani if so, under what department will recreation come under? 2946

March 12, 1976 Tape no. 1115 Page MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, in answer to that question, matters of this sort are decisions, of course, to be made by the Premier of the Province. The Premier has indicated to the House MR. ROBERTS: He has said the department will go, 2 MR. WELLS: Yes, that is right. The Premier has indicated the intention of the government that that department would disappear and that its functions would be Tealigned. AN HON. MEMBER: He has hinted. MR. WELLS: Well he has done more than hinted, he has said. MR.

ROBERTS: Is the realignment taking forever? MR. WELLS: That is not so. But he has indicated clearly that the department is going to disappear and its functions - AN RON. MEMBER: You are the minister. MR. ROBERTS: Is the minister sayiny., let me make one thing perfectly clear? _MR. WELLS: MR. ROBERTS: perfectly clear? MR. WELLS: by government - MR. ROBERTS: _Mfu_ WELLS: What is that? Is the minister saying, let me make one thing So in due course when a decision has been made Would you buy a used car from that man? Obviously, well I will speak to the member who asked the question.

I guess he must want to hear the answer. MR. ROBERTS: Yes. MR. WELLS: But anyway when the results of the study are complete, which I understand they are now, in due course government will make a decision and whatever is done to realign the functions of that department will in due course come to the House an

an act altering departmental responsibilities will be passed, and the function will be wherever it is going to go. But at the momeht the decision has not baen made. 2947

March 12, 1976 Tape no. 1115 Page 3 MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have a supplementary? MR. MeNEIL: With regard to a work orientated - training cent~e for the mentally handicapped, will the people who presented a brief to the Department of Rehabilitation have to wait until the department is re-established or can that decision be made now? MR. WELLS I am sorry? I "'as speaking to my colleague, and I did not get the first part. MR.

McNEIL: 1 With regard to a brief presented by a group of people of Stephenville for a work-orienta~ed training centre for the mentally handicapped be made through the department now as it exists, or will they have to wait until the department is re-established1 MR. WELLS: No, thecfact that the department, you know, will change in its structure 1 or its function be realigned, will not have any affect or delay or prejudice any persons or group of persons who have made submissions. Decisions are being made in the department and Cabinet i11 the normal way.

And if the functions go elsewhere there will not be any pause or delay in the decision making capacity. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Industrial and Rural Development, Sir, why it was necessary to engage the services of an engineering firm outside of Bewfoundland for the design and eae detailed work in connection with the Burgeo fish plant?

Why it was necessary to go outside the Province when we have engineering firms in Newfoundland, consultants and so forth starving for work when this $1 million or $1.5 million is now going outside of Newfoundland? Why was this necessary? MR. SPEAKER: MR. LUNDRIGAN: The hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. Mr. Speaker, that decision was made quite some time ago as the han. member has been made aware. MR. NEARY: So what? 2948

March 12, 1976 Tape no. 1115 Page 4- mw MR. LUNDRIGAN: And any decision regarding consultant work has always been based on quality where it is necessary - MR. ROBERTS: Oh, we do not have any quality here? MR. LUNDRIGAN: Sure, we got all kinds of qualities. As a matter of fact the hon. gentleman who continues to remind me about the rules, continues to break the same rules himself. I wonder would he set an example right at the moment. MR. ROBERTS: MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mea culpa! Mea lllaxima,_-culpa! Sure, sure!

It is based on the need for whatever quality is necessary or expertise is necessary for a particular job, also, of course, in price, and there might be some occasions - very infrequent - when it might be necessary to move outside the boundaries of the Province for certain types of work. Certainly the consultants in this Province have · received a tremendous amount of assistance over the years from the Province. In the last couple of years I would say that there are quite a number of firms that have done substantially well.

That decision was made with the expectation that the company that has been involved with the firm at Burgeo, with our fish industry, required that level of capability,and I understand from the representations that have been made to me from some consulting firms that every effort 2949

March 11. 1976 Tape No. 1116 N}l - 1 MR. LUNDRIGAN: is being made now and in the future on that project when engineering work, consultinR work is required, that our local firms be given any kind of preferential treatment to make sure they get whatever is coming to them. We have had discussions with some firms to ensure that they understand that they will get that kind of treatment.

I would like to go on and say that in the future as well, I think I speak for all of my colleagues when I say this, that any work that is being done we are trying to give every break to Ne1~foundland companies, every single break, beyond that, even to the extent of the use of materials and matters of that nature and my colleague in Forestry, I think, will have something further to say on that in the weeks to come, MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the han. member for LaPoile. ~~. NEARY: A supplementary question; would the minister answer two questions for me?

One, did the fact that because the company operating the Burgee fish plant is not a N~foundland company, did that have any · influence on engaging this engineering firm in Nova Scotia? And secondly, hecause it is a Nova Scotia consulting firm, THill it mean that Nova !icotian firms will get the preference in connection 1~ith the actual construction of the plant or 1~ill Newfoundland firms get first crack at it? ·~. SPEAKF.n: The hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural nevelopment. MR. LUN!)RIGAN: Hr.

Speaker, the answers are no, no and yes. ~N~ARY: What kind of an answer is that- no, no and yes! }ltt, LUN~RIGAN: There ~~ere three questions asked me: Did the fact that the firm 1oas Nova Scotian, ~~as the decision msde because they v1ere Nova Scotian; the answer is no. Was the company that got the consulting business based on the fact that they were related to a Nova Scotian company; the answer is, no. l~ill Newfoundland companies get every consideration, preferential treatment, all the breaks in the world - the answer is yes. ''R .• NEAll.Y: 0ne simple supplementary, l':!r. Speaker, to the minister.

Would the m:!.niRter tell the House whether it was the government who engaged this Nova Scotian firm or was it National Sea Products Limited? nne or the other, 1''hich one engaged this Nova Scotian firm? 2950

¥arch 12, 1976 Tape No. 1116 t·m - 2 1'!R. LUNDRIGAN: Hr. Speaker, most of the work that has been done in relationship to the plant have been done jointly as a result of relationships among t~e company in _question, National Sea, which has assumed the management role: Burgee Fish Industries, Hhich is the provincial bqdy responsible for the administration of that company in Burgee as well as with the federal people under DREE, all of which are involved in the management and financing of the project. MR. NEARY: Who made the decisionZ MR. SPEAKEF: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. 'W... FOBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, a further supplementary in view of the minister's continued evasion of the answers to the questions; would the minister tell us please whether proposals were invited frotn any engineering firma other than the one ·which '~as- appointed[ Would he then, if the answer to that ls yes, would he tell us how many,and finally,would he tell us fram whence they came? ~- · SPEAKER: The hon. }finister of Industrlal ancl Rural Development. ~. LT~nnir.AN: I do ~ot know if that will enli~hten the hon. gentleman :If I gave h:!.m that information.

If I did I do not know what he would do ~rith it, havinct been enlightened. But having said that,first of all the decision regardin~ the consultant work that the member is referring to I believe may be too years old. I cannot give to you, Hr. Speaker, I cannot give the House precisely how many compan!es that might have been invited to make proposals but it has not been - NR. NEARY: Are you prepared to table the information? 1-':R..

LUNDRIGAN: - it has not been the traditional approach to my knowledge of governments across Canada, federal and provincial, to place that type of workon a tender basis, I do not know, again r__som ne•' to the J,usiness here and I could be completely wrong, but I am sure that every assessment was made to try and come up with the company that had the particular level of expertise that was required to give us the best product that we are going to have. t!R. NEARY: You are saying that Newfoundland firms are not competent. 2951

Match 12, 1976 Tape No. 1116 NM- 3 XR. LUNDRIGAN: Now what I would like to also sav, Mr. Speaker, the thing that fascinates me a small bit is that if we decided today to spend $500 million in development work, that would not get a mention at alla The hon. gentleman would find the fact that we had left out a comma somewhere in some paragraph in some form of the agreement that would become the emphasis. c·IR. NEARY: Bunkum! Ml>. SPEAKEP: Order, please! }~. LUNDRIGAN: We are building a fish plant in Burgeo Your Honour, costin2 $9 million or $10 million, that should be the emphasis. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Order, please! The point of order made hy the hon. gentleman is a valid one 1 and the answer must in fact be limited to an answer to the question and not to a debate. The hon. member for Windsor-~uchans. HR. FLIGHT: I direct this question to the hon. House Leader in the absence of the Minister of Tourism• Has the Minister of Tourism indicated to the hon. House Leader when he intends to introduce legislation with regards to the snowmobile regulations? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister Without Portfolio. >m. WELLS·: No, Hr.

Speaker, the procedure is not a question.-of the Minister of Tourism indicating in this fashion. The government put out a paper which was essentially a set of proposals 9 and they were put out and made public for public discussion and so that the 2952

March 12, 1976, Tape 1117, Page 1 -- apb MR. WELLS: advice of the public could be communicated to the government,and this is an ongoing process. When the government feels that it has the full advice of the people of Newfoundland on this subject the government will make a decision as to what the regulations will be or what act will be necessary.,and in due course it will be brought into the House. MR. SPEA'KElt: The hon. the member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Do I understan0 the bon. the House Leader to say that the government intends to withdraw the white paper? MR.

WELLS: It is not a question of withdrawing a white paper, Mr. Speaker. A white paper is not a piece of legislation on the Order Paper, it is simply a set of proposals for public information and debate. ~rR. NEARY: over to Spain. HR. ROBERTS : MR. WF.LLS: It is probably the reason for sending the minister The trouble is they are going to bring him back. So the minister, of course, will advise government in due course as to what has come back to him and a decision will be made. MR. ROBERTS: m.. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, I - The bon. the Leader of the Opposition.

I should point out this will be the last question and answer. MR. l,IELLS : It must be, Mr. Speaker, the weather today which has excited this influenza. MR •. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, certainly if ever there was a need for snowmobiles over this winter it is today. And if the Minister of Transportation has not done a better job of plowing the roads than he normally gets done,we will all need snowmObiles to get home. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of F.isheries who has been, I know, sitting over there all during the afternoon quivering, hoping someone will ask a question, Let me ask one of him.

In view of his refusal to inform the House yesterday,and his desire to inform people outside the House of the impenairig sale - 2953

March 12, 1976, Tape 1117, Page 2 -- apb · MR.

ROBERTS: of the Marystown fish plant, could the minister - who used to be so tender on these things when he was in another place - indicate to us when he will make available to the House of Assembly the full details of whatever arrangement it is the government either have made or are about to make- and it is not clear from his public statement what the situation is-when they will make available the full details of this arrangement which after all involves a substantial asset owned by the Government of this Province and involves an asset which involves the future of seve.ral thousand of our people? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the - Oppo~ition Leader's reference to the ~ct that I had the press conference in Marystown - I am sure the peOple in Marystown including the Mayor and Councillors were quite happy to know that we did go there to make this very important announcement. But getting back to the question,Fishery Products Limited have acquired the plant formerly owned by and operated by Jannock Corporation. The lawyers are now working out the details of the agreement and as soon as it is completed within a week or ten days we will be making it public.

MR; ROBERTS: It will be laid before the House within a few days? }ffi.. CARTER: Yes. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. WELLS: Order one, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPF..AKER: Order one: The Address in Reply,which was adjourned by the bon. the Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, I think when I, to recapitulate for a moment, I think when I elosed my remarks on the last day in this debate I had dealt with the areas in public services, in the service areas in government and the areas where this government, I had suggested to the House, pointed out to the Rouse, had made considerable advances over and above everything,that had been done before in any 2954

March 12, 1976, Tape 1117, Page 3-- apb 'IR. WELLS: period of our history and I made the point, Xr. Speaker, that if we could be faulted we should be faulted, not from the point of view of not having done enough,but from the point of view of having don~ too much, and possibly the only criticism could be that we had spent too much of the public monies on providing services in this Province. I would like at this time 2955

March 12, 1976 Tape no. 1118 Page 1 - mw Mr. Wells. to refer, Mr. Speaker, to something which came up today with the petition from the hon. Minister of Social Serviees from people, from the doctors in his district, concerning the Clarenville Hospital and also to the petition which is underway and which we hear about on the news, which is being got together by the radio station and other interested persons in the Clarenville area. This petition, Mr.

Speaker, concerns that hospital, and I think it proper and right at this time to make clear the position of government on these hospitals,and on that hospital in particular, before the petition comes, although the position will be exactly the same after the petition comes. The situation is, Mr.

Speaker, that the government made a commitment to the people of the Clarenville area just as the government made commitments in respect of other hospitals to other areas, and the commitment is, and the commitment was. that a hospital would be built there, I myself was Minister of Health and spoke for the government on this matter during the past S~r, and I was there in Clarenville, on Clarenville Day, &Dd the hon.

Minister of Social Services, who is the member for that district,was there and the Premier was there, and at that time a start was made on site work which was begun on the site and location of that hospital. Monies have been spent on planning and monies are continuing to be spent on planning. So what has really happened is this and only this, Mr.

Speaker that the government, because of financial constraints and because of the financial climate that became apparent this Fall, not only apparent from the point of view of the Province but apparent from the point of view of the nation as was made clear this past Fall by the federal government, ·the Government of Newfoundland had to impose restraints on hospital construction. And the government announced that programme,and the government waa very clear in the mini-budget, the budget that took 2956

March 12, 1976 Tape no. 1118 Page 2 Mt. Wells. place this Fall past, that all hospital capital expenditures in construction would be deferred for a period of at least 'one year,and that in no sense were any commitments being reneged upon. The hospitals whi~h were committed ' would go ahead, but there would be a delay of at least one year. Now that is a very firm, clear position of government, Mr. Speaker.

It is a position which we are sorry we had to take, and that we regret 1 and we are sorry, and express our concern and our regret to the people of the Clarenville region and also to the people of other parts of Newfoundland and Labrador. But unfortunately financial considerations beyond our control made it necessary. Now having taken that position, Mr. Speaker, we cannot now, and we ought not to, and it would be wrong, and it would be a failure of leadership for us to renege on that decision. We know the situation. We are fully informed , as to the medical needs.

We know the medical needs, and we know the capability to provide medical services which the Province now has and though we have every sympathy, complete sympathy and understanding of the way the people feel in the Clarenville area and in other areas, yet, Mr. Speaker, we have a wider responsibility to the Province as a whole, and to the financial position of the Province, and we cannot, unfortunately, accede to these petitions no matter how much we might wish to, and how much we may want to get these hospitals underway. We can only for this year and the coming financial year, Mr.

Speaker, continue with the planning. We cannot start construction. And as I say it gives all of us in the government a great deal of sorrow to have to say this, but our first responsibility is to the Province and all the people in it, and we must get the financial affairs of the Province completely under control and completely in order and, therefore, Mr. Speaker, we cannot proceed with actual construction this year. 2957

March 12, 1976, Tape 1119, Page 1 -- apb MR. WELLS: Something else I want to say, and it came up in the Question Period today and dealt with the question of electricity rates. I do not want to take a simplistic view of this, Mr. Speaker, but I recall some timeago while the House was closed or ajourned I spoke in a programme on television,and I said the very thing really that emerged today under the questioning of the hon. the member from Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) and the hon. the member from LaPoile of the Minister of Mines and Energy,and that is that the Newfoundland people are going to have to bear the cost of electricity in this Province. There is no one else to bear it, No one else will bear it and no one else can be expected to bear it. And the only choice, Mr.

Speaker, is whether we bear it on our light bills directly or whether we bear it partially by our light bills and partially by taxes, Now,as I say,I do not want to be simplistic,but however you cut the cake we have to bear it,and these are the only questions before us as a House of Assembly and before us as a government, ~s to what proportion is done in taxes and what proportion is done directly on the light bill. The hon. member brought that out very well in questioning and I think that the answers provided by the Minister of Mines and Energy to the questions make it very clear, Mr.

Speaker, that there is a very, very considerable amount of that cost being borne already by the taxpayer in the form of taxes. I believe that taxes are as high in this Province as they ought to go at this time.

I do not believe that we can bear- when I say•w~I mean the people of Newfoundland through the government which is their elected body - I do not believe that we can go further and have a greater pr~portion or even as great a proportion continue to be borne in the future by the taxpayer directly in his taxes, so that I feel that the position taken by the government and announced today by the Minister of Mines and Energy is a very correct one.

It is one that we are all in this Province going to have to live with, because the one fundamental thing is that do what we like we cannot lower the cost of electricity, we can only share it up and we can only make the decision of whether it is paid in the taxes or on the bills. 2958

March 12, 1976, Tape 1119, Page 2 -- apb MR. WELLS: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition when he was speaking in this debate the other day spoke about the question of election expenses. This is something that is of importance to me personally, of importance to the government also. I recall various members of this Rouse either before they were elected or since they have been elected,or in the previous Rouse,speaking about election expenses. We had a very good debate here about two years ago on that subject,and member after member expressed himself very, very clearly on the view, on the question and expressed the view that there is a need for

an act to govern election expenses. I happen to feel, Mr. Speaker, that is should be from both aspects, one,the collection point of view but also the limitation of expenses themselves. I think that is more important almost than the collection aspect of it. I have taken the trouble to find out what they do - MR. SMALLWOOD: are spending. MR. WELLS: The reason they have to collect is that they That is right. You see if the spending of election monies is not controlled, Mr. Speaker, then one candidate will try to outdo another.

If the hon. the member and I are contesting a district, you know, we are both going to fight as hard as we can. An individual candidate when he is contesting a district may feel perhaps that baloons and buttons are not necessary,but if his opponent is using them in fairness he dare not, he dare not ignore the position, he dare not himself ignore his right to use them and so it goes on and on. So if your opponent is on television, you feel you have to get on television and so it goes and it escalates. It is like the nuclear thing, on and on it goes, upwards. There I think - MR. RICKMAN: Then you have a holocaust.

MR. WELLS: Well, exactly. There I think we ought to do something that is done in England, and other members may be more familiare than I am perhaps with the way~t is approached, but I am told, Mr. Speaker, that there are very, very strict and stringent limitations 2959

March 12, 1976 Tape no. 1120 Page 1 - mw Mr. Welle. I - ·· •·· -- - :----:-:------:C7: put in England on what a candidate can spend, and howmuch this candidate can spend on television ·;- how much he" can spend in hia conatitu~~cv or his proposed constituency; how much we can spend overall. So, therefore, if he happens - MR. SMALLWOOD: The last time it was set severally. MR. WELLS: Yes, so much severally, per elector, yes.

So that no matter if the candidate happens to be a multi-millionaire or a poor man,or whether he is getting his funds from influential or wealthy friends or just simply from the party, it does not matter. One candidate is not given an unfair advantage over another, and I suspect the voters themselves, the electors in the districts,have not got to go through what it appears that we in Canada and the United States in the past have put them thraugh in that they are deluged. And I know when you are a candidate yourself, you do not get a chance to see much television, because you are out campaigning.

But I remember before I was active in politics, and was a spectator, an elector, you would get sick of turning on the television because there was another election broadcast.~ how many people have I heard say that this is driving us crazy, and there ought to be a limit put on it. And I believe that in our consideration, which will come before this House,! hope that we will be able to have

an act ready in this session, a draft bill for consideration of the Legislature, Maybe we will not this year,but if not then I suggest at the latest next year that

an act will come before this House for consideration. And I hope and express the view, Mr. Speaker, that it will have limitations on spending as one of its principal components, and also then, of course, limitations on the question of collection by individual candidates and something to do with the overall amount which he can spend and which the party can spend. And I believe if we approach it in that way,and only that way,will justice be done to the public. Because I think with communications being as sophisticated as they are now, and with the opportunities to spend money so omnipresent as they are now, if we do not control it 2960

March 12, 1976 Tape no. ll20 Page 2 - mw Mr. Wells. there will be no end to it, and we will escalate up, up and up until we turn the democratic process into a farce. So I, myself, ~ an exponent of the view that there ought to be

an act in this Province, and this government, I have no hesitation in saying, is of the same view. And as quickly as we can get a worth-while act before this House for its consideration, Mr. Speaker, that we will do. Now one service area of which I spoke the other day ~I spoke something about labour relations in the public sector . ~ I did not refer to labour relations overall. But I think that in the past four years the record of this government in labour relations matters, Mr.

Speaker, has been very, very good, and I am thinking of labour relations now in the private sector,which is essentially the provision of assistance to businesses, to labour and management in the private sector to sort out labour difficulties. And I would like at this time, Mr. Speaker, to pay a tribute to my colleague the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations who has occupied that very difficult and demanding portfolio for most of the past four years. The hon.

Minister of Forestry and Agriculture occupied it with distinction also for a time, but I do not think he was in the portfolio as long altogether as the present minister, the member for St. Barbe South (Mr. Maynard). And I think the minister has done a superb job. He is a man who does not panic, who does not rush off making wild and woolly statements. He is a man who takes the thing quietly and calmly,as it should be handled, and I think his record -when I say his record,by implication also the record of the government in handling and managing labour disputes ~ has been excellent 2961

March 12, 1976 Tape No. 1121 NM- 1 ~'R. WELLS: and I think it is something that we can all be justly proud of,and I think that the record of the government stands and stands high and well in this area of labour relations, Hr. Speaker, over the past four years and I have every hope and expectation that it will continue in the coming years in the same fashion. Incidentally, I do not know if other bon. members notice it.

It is a new experience the storm gives one, I suppose,as any natural phenomenon, new experiences, but it is a rather new experience to speak in a House in which the galleries are, you know, have very few people in them and when the House itself is rather low in numbers and it is an interesting experience because the mood of the House is quite different than when the galleries are crowdad and when the benches themselves are crowded, a rather interesting experience to speak and the hon. member for Twillingate (}!r. Smallwood),! understand, is going to follow me in this debate.

I do not know if the bon. member has had the experience before, p~rhaps he has, of speaking in a House in ~1hich there are very few numbers and when you get the feeling from the newspapers or the radio before you come in here that virtually everything in the town is closed down and you can get the feeling that perhaps the House is the only institution that might be open this afternoon. Anyway that is a digrespion.

But the gist of my remarks to this point have been that in the social areas we have as a government, and this is a non-confidence motion and this is vrhy I emphasize this again, that we have made more strides and greaters strides I think than have ever been done before in the Province of Newfoundla~d either since it has become a Province or before when it was a separate country and a self-governing dominion.

And if we can be faulted it is only in the area of spending too much,because I think all of us who make us this government and its supporters on this side of the House were people who came into politics with a view and with a feeling that they wanted to do something to alleviate and to help the lot of the ordinary Newfoundlander living in this Province and that we have done, }!r. Speaker, and that we have done in good measure,and,as I say,whatever 2962

!larch 12, 1976 Tape No • 1121 N}l - 2 ~'P .• lo/ELLS: criticism can be levelled against us it is not the criticism that we are cold, heartless, unthinking, uncaring about the ordinary person living in this Province. Now this Province is such today, Mr. Speaker, that in every area of government there is greater and greater demand for government to enter into economic and financial mateers, but particularly economic matters as they affect all the people of the Province and r think T•Te are going to see more of this.

I think it is the age in which ~~e live that government ~<ill be asked to take a hand in every area of economic life and I think ~~e have an example today. The Minister of Industrial and Rural Development made a statement in which government again has taken a hand in the economic sector in response to the demands of many people and in industry, namely the sawmilling industry. It has taken a hand to alter the free flow of market forces, to take a hand to engineer the economy.

Now in the sawmilling induStry and the thing that was announced today, the policy, is a very small way, I think, it is a way that wHl prove beneficial and good but I use it, Mr. Speaker, as an example of economic engineering which we do in the Province of Newfourtdla .nd in E relatively small way,but which is done in the Dominion of Canada,in the Pnited States of America, in England, in most countries of the !.Yestern world in a much larger way,is done in a financial way,of course,by the nominion of Canada, by the country of Canada in a much larger Tqay, and if you take it to the ultimate, Mr.

Speaker, is done by the countries of Eastern Europe, Russia, China, in the ultimate way by complete control. So that capitalism and communism now, Mr. Speaker, in the sense of economic policies do not seem to be two diametrically opposed forces, one end of the spectrum to the other, but rather a gradation from supreme control,as in the case of the Soviet system 9down all the way to a relaively lesser, a very great deal lesser control,say,aa we find in the United States where I feel that the economy is controlled to a lesser extent even than it is in Canada. 2963

!arch 12, 1976 Tape No. 1121 NM - 3 MR. 1-lELLS: So there is the position and even the gove;nment of a small province of a relatively small eountry- and I speak of Canada as a small .country in terms of population, not size- but even a small province in a small country, Mr. Speaker, is required by the exigencies of the tiiDe in which we live to take apart in this econoJDic engineering which I will call it for want of a better tenninology. Now how b,ave we done, Mr. Speaker? What is this governiilent '.s record in this econo~c engineering~ We faced certain pToblems and I think w.e have to refer in soil .e sense .to 2964

March 12, 1976, Tape 1122, Page 1 -- apb MR. WELLS: the Labrador Linerboard. There was a case where we became involved in an economic problem in an industry which had been started in this Province before we came into office, We found, Mr. Speaker, when we came into office,an industry which had been started, which had not been completed - the plant had not been completed but a considerable amount of public monies had been invested,something - I am speaking from memory now - but I believe it was somewhere in the area of $140 million or $150 million, Somewhere - MR. SMALLWOOD: Public money? MR.

WELLS: Yes, public money,I believe,had gone into the Labrador Linerboard. I stand to be corrected. I remember the debate very clearly but I cannot remember the figure. Or was it $68 million? It was a substantial sum of public money. MR. PECKFORD: Subsidy. MR. WELLS: No, what had gone into the Labrador Linerboard when we took it over, when the government took it over. MR. PECKFORD : I thou~ht it was $160 million. MR. WELLS: $160 million,the hon. member says. I know it was well over SlOO million. My memory or recollection was $140 million or $150 millions, The hon. member says $160 millions. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Of public money? HR. WELLS: Of public money, yes. That is my recollection. I can check it for the hon. member in the Linerboard debate. MR. SMALLWOOD: There was money put in by ten banks in England and Scotland headed by - one of the banks - and guaranteed by E.C.G.D. MR. ROBF.'RTS: The Lazard group. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, the Lazard Brothers. MR. WELLS: Yes, Lazard Brothers. But there was substantial monies that had gone in from the Province of Newfoundland,and more interestin~ and more significant was that demands were being made every day at that point for further government involvement and assistance.

We took over, the government took that Linerboard mill at Stephenville because we had the choice, the government had 2965

March 12, 1976, Tape 1122, Page 2 -- apb MR. WELLS: the choice at that time, Hr. Speaker, of either walking away from it, forgetting it - because apparently it could not continue to completion - and let what happen may happen 1which would have meant,presumably, the scrapping of what was already built there - so it appeared at that stage - or taking it over and carrying it on and finishing it. We did the latter. Maybe we can be criticized for that, Mr.

Speaker, but although considerable and substantial public monies have gone into that mill, and I suggest will go into it to keep it open, yet by this economic engineering at least a good many jobs in the Goose Bay area have been preserved, a good many jobs in the Stephenville area have been preserved, a good many jobs, I suspect, in my bon. friend's district of Green Bay, you know,have been preserved. So there again is an example of the use of public funds,which,costly though it may be,at least preserve jobs and keep economic actiyity at a reasonable level in certain parts of the Province.

The government also, Hr. Speaker, had to take a stAn~ on offshore oil and gas. Now I think the indications, and I do not want to sound too optimistic, but all the information that is - - - - available to us and available to the public much of it also. would seem to indicate that there is a very strong and a very good possibility of offshore oil and gas being discovered in commercial quantities. Now it has been discovered.

We know that there is an excellent sign,particularly on the Labrador Shelf.but the hope is, and this has not been finally proven and determined as yet, but the hope is that it is there in sufficient quantities to be economically viable; in other words, to be got ashore, to be got out of it on a paying basis. This raises very interesting questions between the stand of the federal government and the stand of the Province.

The federal government,as we know, before this government took office, let out vast areas of the Continental Shelf of Canada, which by definition includes the Continental Shelf of Newfoundland, vast areas, I suggest, in a very - the word that keeps coming to my

March 12, 1976, Taoe 1122, Page 3 -- apb MR. WELLS: mind as I stand here is - slack fashion. They charged very little, they gave long-term concessions with nothing of the concern that other countries, particu larly European countries, have received giving permits to explore. And the Government of Newfoundland gave concurrent permits also to exploration companies. This whole matter has not been resolved and we take the position, and I helieve, ~r .

Speaker, it is a position supported hy the vast majority r f people in this Province, the ~osition that the Province, that this Province for historical and other reasons should have the primary right to control these resources. It is not that we expect 100 per cent of the revenue thot is generated or 2967

"arch 12, 1976 Tape 1123 IB-1 ~'F. HELLS: ~,ill be generated if commercial quantities are founc1 1 but rathex- that we would have the substantial part of the revenue or a substantial part of the revenue. But further than that, ~·r.

Speakex-, that we shoul<'l have the right to control for the benefit, not only of the Province, but of the country as well, to control expJoration to provide safeguards, and if it gets to the point of actual extraction fox­ commercial purposes 1 that we sho .ic' have the ri r,ht to contrr:-1 the extraction as well to make sure that safety stanclards are !'let and environmental standar~s are met and every other standard 1 anc1 also taxation standards are met, revenue standards are met. '1-~ov, I believe mysel f 1 and I would myself and this government also wou] c' l:lke to see that this be worked out and this he arrangec1 .bY what is called, I think, a political settlement.

In other wox-ds, to put it simply, by agreeMent between the Province and the country, l;anada, in which ~~e live. I still hope, ~'r. Speaker, thnt :l.t can come about, that that kind of settlement can be reached. I would feel it very unfortunate and very sad if there cannot be the sort of accommodation that is necessax-y for that kind of settlement~rathex­ than having the matter colclly submittec1 to a court and then have to take the result of the court, whatever it is. ~7. S~'ALUJOO!': Phat ax-e the present prospects of such an a..::rangement? Hell, nep;otiations are st:lll going on and talks. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Four years? !"!'. HELLS: Yes, it is true, but again - ~<J! .• S~'ALLIVOOT': And he fore that, for four years. ~ 'J> • HF.LL!) : And before that. E:l ght years. 1-m. WF.LLS: ll'fght years they have been going on. But aga:l.n I suppose there is no more impox-tant question to th:l.s Province and important 1of course 1to the federal government as well. I th1nk there is an explanation and a factor why the negotiations have been going on so long '"'ithout being resolved. That :f.s that :tt has not been 2968

"arc], 1/., 1976 Tape 1123 I:R-2 ~"!'. PELI.S: commerciallv proven yet whether or not there RTe commer¢ial quantities of o:ll and r:as there . I th:!nk once the stage :ts reached when the proof has been supplied,:tf it :!.s to be suppl:!.ecl, }•r: Speaker, then I believe that the pressure would immediately come on both parties to the dispute to get at it. In other words, there ~muld be great pressure exert.ec:' by the presence of a coi'liTtercially proven f:l.nd. I believe and I hope that ar:reemen t could he reachecl. nut 1 f there is one thing I have some experience of in l He, }'r.

Speaker, :It is the '•rorkings of the courts. I ~mule'! say , and I say without fear of contracl:lction, that to subm:lt matters to the arb:!.tratioro of courts is the last resort. Hhen things can be negotiated, I th:lnk :It is a French proverb or a French saying - what is H? - a bad settlement is better than a goorl lawsutt. All I can say, ~fr.

Speaker, is that I guess it is eighteen years of day-to-day experience in the courts that have confirmed for me personally that v:l.e"' · This is why I would ~..-:f . sh and hope very much - that a settle­ ment can he arrived at between the Province of Net~foundland and the government of r:anacla,and I hope and believe that :l.t w:lll. :aut to come back to our posit:l.on as a government :l.n that rer,arc!, Yr. Speaker, I he] !eve ,.ye have taken the right position ~tnd I hel:l eve we are proceeding •·•ith a p;ood and a sound position pnd I thin~ our stand on that has heen right.

I want to say a ~rord about rome :ay rhance. It may be that the Matter is already over in the court, in the Supreme rourt do~m here, the bankruptcy matter. I do not knm~. Perhaps we tdll learn later toclay. But I ~rant to say - and I think this is ·curious phenomenon- -- but the impression one gets when an insolvency such as this occurs, the impression one gets :Is that somehow it is the fau] t of the p,overnment. I think this is very much a phenomenon of our t:l.mes, that somehow the p,overnment is to blame or at fa.nlt. Th:fs is aston:! .shing, r•r.

Speaker. 1./e have never , certa:l.nly we have never l"upge~<ted -and Cod knows,why '-70uld we - that this :fR our fault. 2969

.:1 t'ar ch 12, 1976 Tape 1123 lB-3 ~Mit. HEJ.LS: I cannot see how it can he our fault just as I cannot see how it can be the fault of the previous administration headed hy the hon. eentleman from Twillingate (l·'r. Stnallwood). The :Industry was put there. Jt "'as put the re 1dth $35 million assi.stance~at the til!'e, from the government of Newfoundland. AN RON • )'Et'BEP : Thirty. f·'P. I.JELLS: \~as it thirty? Yc.s , it was thirty. AN RON. t'El'BEP.: l'lith the interest • .J!R. WELLS : That is right and the interest. Now with i nterest charges it is forty-one. Well that ~Jas fine . It was put there.

Once the decisions were taken to put :It there it was put there then by a pr:lvate corporation, and Jt was built by a worldwide an<' Hell- known company , l'niversal Clils, trnp, through their subs i di acy Procon. It was done , as far as we kne1~ and as everybody kne..-, with t he proper technical advise and sl<ill and expertise. It ~:as finance<' by ~ccn which is ar arm or an organ of the British Government. And there was oth er financing. l~en it was put there, ~·r . Speaker, I am aure that every person :In Newfoundland ann Lab rador wanted that to succeed. I was not in politics - Not everyone. }'P .

WELLS: No, perhaps not every person, 2970

J!arch 12, 1976 Tape No. 1124 l·!R. HELLS: but IOCISt persons in this Province "'anted it to succeed.

I remember myself thinking about it and I was not N~!- 1 in politics at the time 1 perhaps I had it in my mind to enter, but at any rate I remember thinking about it and I thought to myself, well look, as long as the environment is protected, as long as Placentia Bay and our coastline is not destroyed by oil, here,you know,we would be coming to some extent a manufacturing country, oil would be brought from the Middle Enst o·r Venezuela, ~rherever it '"as coming from, it '~ould be processed here in Newfoundland and it would be sold,and I think the objective was at that time to sell it in the US.

I believe that was the whole underpinings of the scheme that it should be sold in the US market.

Well I thought to myself, and J am sure thousands of other Newfoundlanders did also, could '"e wish for more really than to see raw materials brought into this Province, processed here and sold elsewhere,because this was somet~ing different from ,that had ever happened in Newfoundland before to my knowledge and in my reading, because always we bemoaned our lot that we were hewers of wood and drawers of water, we took our raw materials out of the ground or off the earth or out of the sea and they were sent off to be processed elsewhere,and we lost employment by it.

And here was something that reversed that trend and something which I am sure most people in Newfoundland hoped would succeed. Now the factors which· hrought about and have brought about the closure of that industry are factors,and I think we should say this, are factors beyond the control of this government and beyond the control of any government, or Hhatevei' party or political stripe that could conceivably be present here and governing Newfoundland, factors completely beyond that control. They had to do with the price of crude oil, beyond our control.

They had to do with regulations of the export of oil from Canada and the import of oil products into the United States, completely beyond our control as a Province. So that these are the factors. They had to do with the management of a company '"hich although incorporated in Newfoundland is controlled by an American company incorporated in New York State,as I understand it. 2971

... }larch 12, 1976 Tape No. 1124 m•- 2 HR. WELLS: All these factors- the management, the price of crude, the price of refined products, the price of tankers, the price that oil can be sold for in~the US and elsewhere, the world price- all these factors, Mr. ~peaker, completely beyond the control of Newfoundland and the people living in Newfoundland. So I do not want to hear it said, }fr.

Spealcer, that in any sense the insolvency or the bankruptcy, if it turns out that way, of that company and that refinery is any fault of the Government of Newfoundland or the previous government or a government ~·h:l. ch may folln"~>r,because it :l.s not and I think ~~e should m!'.ke that po:l.nt and I ~1ould expect every member of this han. House