ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXII No. 268 - 8:00 p.m., TUESDAY, 22 MAY, 1984. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTET� Hon. Andy ASHTON, Sieve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRJN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Ruaaell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, Jamea E. DRJEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Genie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHJLL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA,Hon.Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, O.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vie SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minn edosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Churchill St. Boniface Aiel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Vir den Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin- Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP IND NDP NDP NDP NDP IND NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC -P C NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 22 May, 1984. Time - 8:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker, it would be my proposal to move that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply, but before we do that, Sir, I would like to see if there is leave of the House to dispense with the notice provisions, Sir, on the written question of the Hono urable Member for Minn edosa, which we agreed to move under Rule 48.(4) to notice, if there is leave to allow the member to move the Order for Return this evening waiving the notice, otherwise it wouldn't come up until Friday and we're prepared to accept that order. ORDER FOR RETURN MR.

SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Swan River, that an Order of the House do issue for the return of the following information: 1. The total amoun ts of paym ents made pursuant to claims filed in 1983 for damage resulting from aerial spraying to combat Western equine encephalitis; 2. The amount of claims received in 1983; 3. The amount paid pursuant to each claim received in 1983; 4. The number of claims from 1983 that remain outstanding or unsettled. MR.

SPEAKER: lt is moved by the Honourable Member for Minn edosa and seconded by the Honourable Member for Swan River, the return as read. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, we're prepared to accept this order . I have only one que stion for clarification, if the member could clarify the intent, with regard to the request.

There are probably three different categories of claims, those that relate to agricultural claims primarily the beekeeping industry, both honey and leaf-cutter, and then there are also civil actions with regard to spraying on cars and other civil actions which flow. The details on the agricultural impact would be relatively easily gathered. If it was the member's intent only to have this apply to the agricultural impact of the spraying and not the civil actions relating from the spray in urban areas, etc. I think it was just the agricultural.

If that can be clarified it can probably be produced as quickly as the member has requested. MR. D. BLAKE: I probably should have had a little more clarity in the first question. I'm primarily interested in the claims paid to the beekeepers. There are other agricultural claims for implement damage with spraying and whatnot, but I'm interested in the compensation paid to the beekeepers of Manitoba. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Mi nister of Employment Services and Economic Security that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be grante d to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Education and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for Employment Services and Economic Security. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - EMPLOYMENT SERVICES AND ECONOMIC SECURITY MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply shall be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Employment Services and Economic Security. We begin with the opening statement from the Min ister who is responsible for the department. HON. L. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm pleased to present today the 19 84-85 Estimates for the new Department of Employment Services and Economic Security for the consideration of the members. I'd like to take the opportuni ty, as is customary, to make an opening statement to give you a bit of an overview of the department and some of the programs that we are now engaged in.

The department was created last October combining the employment services function which was formerly a part of the Department of Labour and Employment Services with the responsibility for economic security ini tiati ves that were previously a function of the Department of Community Services and Corrections. In addition, the responsibility for the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics was transferred to the department earlier of this year, January of this year.

The combination or these responsibilities means that the new department of Emplo yment Services and Economic Security will play a leading role in the development of the government stategies to assist the economic growth in Manitoba. The composition of the department reflects a new emphasis on development and delivery of initi atives to provide impr oved jobs and 1031

Tuesday, 22 May, 1984 career opportunities for Manitobans. lt also reflects the continuing concern for maintaining and imp roving economic security, that is, the provision of crucial financial support for individuals and families in this province who are unable, for many different reasons, to meet the financial requirements to maintain an adequate standard of living.

Placing the responsibility for these two areas of activit y in one department emph asizes this gov ernment's in tention to develop useful in terconnections between them, to make a new concerted effort to develop the opportuniti es to bring into the labour force many of those persons who are now dependent on Social Assistance because of a continuing inability to find jobs. In spite of continu ed improvements in Manitoba's unemployment rate over the last year and other positive economic indi cators, conc ern about the economic issues is presently paramount, both for the Manitoba public and for this government.

My department will be involved in the continuing development of provincial policies and ini tiativ es designed to strengthen Manitoba's economy and to imp rove the economic condition of indi vidual Manitobans. lt will be much concerned with tracking the economy of Manitoba through it's research and statistical capacities and will be planning and seeking out public and private sector in opportuniti es for the development of new productive jobs which will bring more Manitobans into an expanded labour force.

Through the Employment Services Division, the department will be the lead department in developing a provincial training and retraining strategy in support of the province's economic development initia tives. This strategy is to complement the existing post-secondary ed ucational system. Empl oyment Services and Economic Security will be receiving input to this process from the Department's of Labour and Education which will be responsible for the delivery of most of the initiatives.

Through it's Training Agreement Admi nistration Branch, my department is also responsible for Federal/ Provincial negotiations on training matters. lt is responsible for provincial participation in the Canada­ Manitoba Labour Market Needs Committee which assists in admi nistering The National Trainin g Act Agreement, assessing training requirements and means, and overseeing related federal-provincial initiati ves including the General Industrial Training Program for delivery of adult on-the-job training; the Skills Growth Fund for the provision of improved training facilities and equipment; the Training Al lowance and Unemployment Insurance Programs.

The two-and-a-half year term of the present Canada­ Manitoba Training Agreement expires on March 31 st of 1985, and my department will be seeking to negotiate a new training agreement to replace it. We will be conc entrating on the co-operative development of training programs that are relevant to the development of Manitoba's economy and to the needs of Manitobans. Current initiat ives of the department are participating in the development and delivery of training initiat ives as well.

The new Careers Program is continually developing new training programs to provide useful skills to persons who've experienced barriers to employment and education, and to train local residents in areas of the province where certain skills may be required. These carefully tai lored programs are designed to and do regularly achieve graduate employment rates of 100 percent. A new initia tive for the northern component in this program in the coming year will be the intr oduction of a two-year course for Native retail store managers.

Other departmental initiat ives support job training for individuals with special needs. The Human Resource Opportun ity Program provides a wide variety of counselling and placement services on a regional basis to assist persons experiencing unusual difficulty securing employment or training opportunities. The Selkirk Training Plant is operated by the department to train and counsel unemployed individuals with special needs while manufacturing a variety of wood and metal products.

As well as the extremely important development of training initiatives the department's Employment Services Division will be closely involved in the job creation efforts of the Provincial Government. Young Manitobans, particularly hard hit in times of more limited employment opportunities, will be a special target for assistance.

Special opportunities for summer emplo yment and work experience will be created through departmental init iatives such as the Student Employment Program, otherwise referred to as STEP; The Northern Youth Core Program; The Northern Summer Education Program; as well as Manitoba Jobs Fund Programs administered by the department such as wage assistance programs incl uding Manitoba Careerstart'84, which has now approved assistance for over 6,000 new positions this summer; and the Science and Engin eering Grants Program which is dedicated to strengthening in specific business sector while creating new permanent jobs for highly skilled Manitoba graduates.

My department is continuing to develop and co­ ordinate further youth employment programs with the Jobs Fund and will administer their delivery as well. lt may be mentioned here as well that the Department of Employment Services and Economic Security will be taking the lead responsibility for the province in co­ ordinating International Youth Year'85 which will denote a broad range of youth issues, their perspectives, contributions and problems which will include their employment prospects.

As well as the training init iatives I mentioned earlier which are aimed largely at Manitoba's adult population, the department has participated in and will continue to develop programs which encourage new job creation for adults.

With funding from the Manitoba Jobs Fund, the department administers the provincial half of the Federal-Provincial New Employment Expansion and Development Program, otherwise referred to as NEED, which has assisted private project sponsors in creating 2,6 49 jobs over the past 18 months for unemployment insurance exhaustees, those receiving Social Assistance and those on union layoff lists.

Another Manitoba Jobs Fund initiat ive, the Manitoba Employment Action Program was adminis tered by the department last year. lt encouraged private employers through wage assistance to create new job opportunities for Manitobans of all ages. This year, the department will be involved in the development and delivery of more Jobs Fund programs which will provide new jobs 1032

TUe.c:lay, 22 May, 1984 for many individuals and new physical assets for many communities in this province. Through the description of Employment Service initia tives, I made frequent references to programs of the Manitoba Jobs Fund. The relationship between the depar tment and the Fund is a close one. This department is one of several that are represented on the Economic Resource Investment Commit tee of Cabinet.

The department has been given a mandate by the committee to develop certain strategies and programs to encourage the immediate creation of jobs for Manitobans, as well as the longer-term benefits through training and the creation of capital assets. In the coming weeks, we will be announcing a number of programs which will be carried out by the department on the funds we have. Instrumental in the delivery of these programs are the department's 11 Regional Offices. I don't think I will read these off, but we have offices scattered throughout the province.

In addition, I might refer to the Immigration and Settlement Branch that we have in our department. it provides the government with information on the pattern and impact of immigration for Manitoba, as well as a wide range of services for newcomers to our province. These services are particularly concerned with furthering the lang uage development and em ployment of immigrants. The department will also be concerned with the continued provision of important economic security measures for the people of Manitoba.

My department will be reviewing the changing needs of recipients of Social Assistance, as well as prevailing social and economic conditions with the objective of developing stronger links between income security measures and training and employment programs. The Economic Security Division will continue to provide, thr ough its Social Allowance Programs, assistance to cover the cost of basic necessities of those Manitobans in need who are eligible under The Social Allowance Act.

An in crease of 6.2 percent over the 19 83-84 adjusted cost requested to provide this assistance in 19 84-85 based on price in creases and an estimated 2 percent increase in caseload. A second tier of assistance is provided through cost­ sharing with municipalities who have the responsibility of assisting persons within their municipal boundaries who are not eligible for provincial Social Assistance. Last December, the department received the Report of Recommendations of the Manitoba Task Force on Social Allowances which focuses on the fundamental elements of the Social Assistance system in this province.

My department is responsible for evaluating the reco mmenda ti ons in light of the im pacts on recipients and the administration of the system, as well as cost implications. We will be proposing prompt attention to some recommendations and concerns, and considering future reforms as resource and economic circumstances allow.

As well as mainten ance of our Social Allowance Programs, the department will continue to maintain current levels of service for the Child Related Income Support Program, otherwise known as CRISP, which assists nearly 10 ,000 Manitoba low-income families with the costs of raising their children, and also the Manitoba Supplement for Pensioners which provides a quarterly income supplement to pensioners with little or no personal income. The last area I would like to refer to, Mr. Chairman, is in the area of statistics and research.

We have a statistics and research capacity which is extremely important for planning by the department in the government. The Manitoba Bureau of Statistics plans, develops and dissemina tes integrated social and economic statistics relating to the province on behalf of the departments and agencies of our government. it also int erfaces with Statistics Canada and responds to requests for information from the private sector and general public.

Its recent development of extensive economic information on the province will provide the Provincial Government with an imp ortant tool for designing economic and development strategies. The department's Research and Planning Branch also provides regular analysis of trends in the Manitoba Labour Market and forecasts for the Manitoba economy and we'll be using this valuable information to make recommendations on government planning. Mr.

Chairman, in conclusion, I would observe that I have provided you with a brief overview of the depart ment's activities and the priorities that the department will be pursuing in 19 84-85. I thought this would be useful in as much as that it is a new organ izat ion. The dep artment will have total expen ditur es, we are proposing in our spending estimates, a total expenditure level of $173,181 ,000, and as I mentioned earlier, a number of the programs the department will be delivering this year will be receiving, in addition, funding from the Manitoba Jobs Fund. I would like to take this opportunity, Mr.

Chairman, to thank the staff. We're still in the process of putting together a team, but I'm very pleased with the organizational efforts to date. We've got some excellent people and I want to take this opportunity to thank them for their dedication and their loyalty and their service. Mr. Chairman, I would refer the Department of Employment Services and Economic Securities 19 84- 85 spending Estimates to your committee. I look forward to the memb ers' comments, qu estions and contributions. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Consistent with past practice in this committee, the Chair now calls upon the leading opposition critic to give her reply. MRS. C. OLESON: it's a pleasure to take

part in these Estimates with the responsibility that I hold in this department. I just wanted to make a few comments. Some of them may have been covered already by the Mi nister and they were drowned out in the excitement of both sides chattering while they were being said, so if I repeat something or ask you something that you've already answered well, that's probably the reason.

During the course of the debate on these Estimates, we'll be looking for several things and one of the major things we want to hear from this Minis ter -and I didn't hear it clearly in his opening remarks -was a justification for the creation of this department, or justification for the creation of it on the part of the taxpayers, to why we needed to go to the extra expense. We hope that the Mi nister will be able to make it very clear to us and to the taxpayers just why the move was necessary. 1033

Tuesday, 22 May, 1984 We'll also be looking for information on exactly what this department administers in the way of grants to employers, employees, unemployed, to youth and to seniors and anyone else who is in the need of assistance.

We want some clarification from the Mini ster as to why some programs are under his jurisdiction in this departm ent, and why some were left in other departments because it seems to us that there is some interplay between departments and areas that might have been better left, for instance, with Community Services or with Labour, and we'll be interested to hear the Mi nister's views on why this move was necessary and why, as I say, some programs are in his department and some were left in their original department.

The opposition would also like some clear definition of where the Jobs Fund activities fit into this department and how they relate with it to other departments. For instance, there seems to us to be a great deal of duplication of admi nistrative staff involved between the departments that are handling the Jobs Fund. lt seems to us that whichever department we happen to be debating the Jobs Fund comes into it in some way or another, in contribution of funds, or in programs, or in staffing.

So we want to get some clear indication of just where the Jobs Fund fits in and this Minister's role in that program. lt's very confusing to Members of the Legislature at least, to say nothing of the members of the public, who are trying to get information from the government on programs, and grants, etc., to know which department of this government to go to, to get them. They're in the habit of going to one department and now they find they're shunted off to another and sometimes I'm told it means several phone calls to find out just who is in charge of what, and when, and where. Now in an

article in the Free Press on May 3rd of this year it stated that this department is made up of elements of education, labour, and community services, as well as economic development. On Page 4 of the Government Press release on November 4th it stated that training and retraining are crucial and I won't quote the passage because the Mi nister has already referred to it. So during the review of the various allocations it would be helpful if the Minister would point out which department particular programs were in previously and some of the justification, as I have stated before, for them being in this department.

We'd also like to know what special ini tiatives are being taken to live up to the commitment stated in that press release of November 4, 19 83. For instance, in what area is the training and the retraining taking place, and for what jobs? For example, is there assistance forthcoming to day care centres in the form of training assistance? We know that the day care isn't under this department. We perhaps would maybe learn why during the course of these Estimates.

But the new day care regulations are in force and in order to live up to the commitment, the day care centres are having to train staff and perhaps it would be a good idea if this sort of training was included in the Mi nister's plans for training and retraining.

So that is something we want to hear about because they're going to have trouble conforming to the regulations in time if there isn't some help, I think, in that area. lt would be helpful if the Minister would supply to this commit tee a li st of staff posit ions and their respective responsibilities and allocations, as, of course, this is a new department and we would like to know the staff allocations and probably it would save us asking line-by-line how many staff and where they were from.

If the Mini ster could ind icate when he's talking about how many staff, whether they were employed before and in what department or if they are newly created positions in his department. I would like to thank the Min ister for providing me with a list of the job creation programs, and in turn I didn't find on my desk and I had to get another copy from him, but in that confusion, that was my fault, not his.

Since the Mi nister has responsibility regarding the Jobs Fund, it would be helpful if he could indicate, as we progress line-by-line, just where that program fits into this department, In what connection, the funding or the admi nistration or the Minister's input or just where the Jobs Fund fits in. Before I leave that, I'm wondering, first of all, some of my colleagues are interested in where the Careerstart Program fits in here, could you give us the heading and the line for that please? MR.

CHAIRMAN: Before we proceed any further, the Chai rperson cordially in vites the member of the departmental staff of the Department of Employment Services and Economic Security to please come forward and take their respective places. We shall defer consideration of Item 1. (

a) on the Mini ster's Salary and start with Item 1. (b)(1) and 1. (b)(2) relating to Admin istration and Fin ance, Executive Suppo rt : Salaries and Other Expenditur es -the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: As I had stated before, Mr. Chairman, we'll want to know how many staff and what the positions are, because of course it being a new department, the statement of last year's spending, for instance, probably doesn't really relate-I wouldn't think it does by the funding there - if the Minister could clarify that for us from the beginning. HON. L.

EVANS: First of all, in answer to the specific question that the Member for Gladstone asked, which item Careerstart was under -specifically, it's under 3.(b)(3). With regard to the staffing, I can give you a list of the staffing by various sections of the department. I haven't got information which ind icates In great detail where it comes from but I can tell you generally where the personnel come from, and as you can appreciate, being a new depar tment, there are certain admin istrative positions that are new, of course. But I can certainly give you this copy -we'll just pass it down to you. MRS. C.

OLESON: All of the first group are in this appropriation then -the top line? HON. L. EVANS: The top line -well, we're looking at 1. (b)

(1) Executive Support. We're looking at eight staff years here and that's the line that's shown on the listing. MRS. C. OLESON: Then we can move on to -the Executive Support is supporting the Minister and just 1034

Tueedey, 22 May, 1984 that department in adminis trating the entire department or is that strictly . . . If you could explain. HON. L. EVANS: lt includes my own office and the Deputy Mi nister's office and various secretarial and clerical support to our two offices. MRS. C. OLESON: Tht's the Deputy Minister and how many Executive Assistants? HON. L. EVANS: Each Mi nister has one Executive Assistant and one Special Assistant and the Deputy Mini ster has one Executive Assistant. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if I could ask then, this increase from $23,700 last year to $316,600 this year, what positions are involved in the new staff complement under Executive Support for the Min ister? HON. L. EVANS: Of this mone y, ther e are eight positions that I said, seven are new and one was transferred from Community Services and I think that was one clerical position. MR. G. FILMON: So there's one clerical support staff which was the $23,700, seven additional positions that are new. Could the Min ister indicate what where the specific positions? HON. L.

EVANS: Wel l, that include s the Special Assistant to the Mini ster, the Executive Assistant to the Mini ster, the Deputy Mini ster, the Executive Assistant to the Deputy, the secretary to the Minis ter, the secretary to the Deputy Minis ter, and clerical support of two. MR. G. FILMON: One to each, the clerical support? HON. L. EVANS: I think they would be available to each but essentially they're attached to my office but they're available for . . . MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Min ister could just briefly give us the rationale behind why the new department was set up with this very heavy adminis trative complement for the Executive Support to the Min ister. There must have been a rationale why a new department was created that had not previously been there, so could the Mini ster give us a brief review of the rationale for this move? HON. L. EVANS: I think the staff complement is similar to other offices.

There may be one exception and that is that my Executive Assistant is located in Western Manitoba, as are the other EAs for the Regional Cabinet Offices that we had. There's an Executive Council Office in Thompson, Dauphin and Brandon, so that I believe one of these clerical positions is in that office, but other than that, the complement is the same. MR. G. FILMON: Mr . Chairman, this Min ister's Executive Assistant is located in Brandon. Whose Executive Assistants are in Dauphin and Thompson? HON. L.

EVANS: I don't know their names but there would be - I believe they're attached to those Min isters, but I really don't know their specific names. But there was a news release last year some time, outlining the establishment of those offices and the personnel. I suppose we could check it but I don't know that. I can't give you the answer. MR. G. FILMON: In view of the fact that the Executive Assistants to the particular Mi nisters are working in their particular constituency areas, are you saying that they're primarily doing political work on behalf of the Minister in his own constituency?

Is that why they're located there? HON. L. EVANS: The three Executive Council Offices - it's an Executive Council Office. I recall there is one in Thompson, as I said, for the Norman region. There's one in Dauphin for the Parklands area, more or less, and this one serves the Westman area and it serves the entire West man region. lt doesn't serve one specific riding. I might mention that these offices had been in place in the past. I remember Mr. McM aster having his office in place in the City of Thompson, serving the Norman region - an Executive Council Office that is. MR. G.

FILMON: By the same token, I don't recall an Executive Assistant previously having been located in Brand on or Dauphin. The Mi nister indicates that they're attached to the Executive Council really, but they're assigned to his department and they show up in the Estimates for his department. Is this not an indication that basically these individuals are doing political work on behalf of the particular Min ister whose riding they're now located in? HON. L.

EVANS: As I ind icated, they're Executive Council Offices but a decision was made that the support staff would be located in that particular department of that particular Mini ster. They could have been, I suppose, itemized under Executive Council. lt's a matter of bookkeeping, I suppose. MR. G. FILMON: Have these positions in these locations been there prior to this year's Estimates? HON. L. EVANS: Yes. MR. G. FILMON: Oh, they have been. Had they been attached to the Executive Council Estimates in previous years? HON. L. EVANS: No.

As I said, the practice is to attach them to the department that particular Mi nister has, so last year they were in the Department of Community Services. MR. G. FILMON: In effect, Mr. Chairman, since last year they were attached to the Mi nister of Community Services and this year they are attached to the Minis ter of Employment Services, there is no question that they're attached wherever the constituency of that particular Minis ter happens to be, because last year's Minis ter of Community Services and this year's Mi nister 1035

Tuesday, 22 May, 1984 of Employment Services are one and the same. So they are really political support staff out doing work on behalf of the member who represents that constitue ncy in that area. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, the Executive Assistant does what an Executive Assistant can and would do in any government, but I am suggesting to the member that the office fulfills an Executive Council function and we represent and serve the entire Westman re gion.

We have delega tions, people phoning up who, for whatever reason, are not satisfied with dealing with the Civil Service and they phone up and have complaints or criticisms or suggestions or questions, and indeed we service the whole Wes tman area. I might also add, Mr. Chairman, that there is a system for various Cabinet Ministers to use that office, and they do. I can think of the Minister of Natural Resources there receiving delegations and receiving people from the We stman area with their particular concerns.

The present Minister of Community Services has utilized the office, and was given support by the staff that are there in arranging the appointments, etc. There has been quite a long list of Min isters who have utilized the services of the staff and the office and I think it's bringing government to the people. Now that's repeated in Dauphin and Thompson. · MR. G. FILMON: Did the Mini ster indicate that the Executive Assistant also has a secretary in the We stman office? HON. L. EVANS: That's the clerical support, as I referred to. MR. G. RLMON: So there is a clerical secret arial person out there as well? HON. L.

EVANS: That's included In the eight. MR. G. FILMON: Then, Mr. Chairman, is the Minister indicating that one of the prime reasons why a new department was set up was so that it could justify having a secretary and an Executive Assistant out in the Brandon area to do political work on behalf of the government and this particular Mini ster in hi s constituency? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm just wondering if there is a particular function that this office for instance, in Brandon, is it directly related to this department? HON. L.

EVANS: Ye s, in the sense that we get a large number of Social Allowance problems for the Wes tman area, people on welfare who have got all kinds of problems. We get them from Souris, Virden, Neep awa - you name it. Also we have had people who are concerned particularly about our Job Creations Program. You mentioned Careerstart. We get calls on that and so on. But also, we service the people of West man with regard to other problems they have with regard to any government department.

We get a wide array or wide range of queries and problems from wherever, whether it be sett ing up problems they have in getting a house for the mentally retarded at Virden or whatever. MRS. C. OLESON: lt just seems to me just a little different that it should be credited - or debited would be the better word - as an expense to this department to have that sort of an office; that it should be called an expense of Employment Services and Economic Security to have that kind of an office in Brandon and elsewhere. I don't think I have any more remarks on that particular area. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1.(bX1) -p ass; 1. (bX2)-pa ss. 1. (cX1), 1.(cX2) Resource and Planning: Salaries, Other Expenditures - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: We would also like to know the staffing on that area please, specifically to the Research and Planning. HON. L. EVANS: Ye s. The 10 staff years that show on your list there combine seven positions transferred from the previous Department of Labour and three positions transferred from Community Services.

This includes one director, three senior analysts, one program and planning analyst, one labour market economist, one planning and resea rch analyst, one researc h assistant, one secretary and one clerk-typist. MRS. C. OLESON: So th ose coming from the Department of Labour and from the Comm uni ty Services probably mean that they have to be replaced in those departments to some extent. HON. L. EVANS: Wel l, that is not the case. For example, the se•vice of the labour market specialists are no longer needed, as I understand, in the Department of Labour.

My understanding is, there is no replacing of them because we have taken those programs over. MRS. C. OLESON: Then in cases where the Department of Labour needs this sort of information, they get it from this department now? HON. L. EVANS: That's right. For example, we put out the Labour Market Bulletin, you know, that monthly report on the labour force survey. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, a few weeks ago I asked the former Minister responsible for Employment Services about a particular contract that was entered into by the government and WMC Associates with respect to personal services. The former Min ister und ertook to bring me a response in the House, and unfortunately has not and it's been a period of going on four we eks.

I wonder if, since it was my unde rstanding that the topic of consultation was in the area of Researc h and Planning, whether or not the Minister can indicate to us at the present time what the purpose of that contract was, and what particularly was produced by WMC Associates on behalf of the government. 1036

Tuesday, 22 May, 1984 MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the Minister wish to deal with this question? HON. L. EVANS: Well yes, I'll have to take it as notice and get the information for the member. I can't outline for him the purpose of the contract. I believe that was your main question. But I will get that information for the member. MR. G. FILMON: What I am looking for in particular is: what was the purpose of the contract? What was the nature of the services provided? Is there a report that has been produced as a result of the contract?

Did the full amount that was authorized by the Treasury Board approval of $67,500 , was it expended in the less than six-month period of the contract? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, we'll take that as notice, and provide the Leader of the Opposition with that information as soon as possible. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minis ter could indicate whether or not he might be able to provide this information by tomorrow while we are still dealing with his Estimates. HON. L. EVANS: We'll try to do that, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(c)(1)-pass; 1.(c)(2)-pass. 1.(d)( 1), 1.(d)

(2) Communi cations: Salaries, Other Expenditures - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I take it from the listing you gave me that there is one staff person in this department. HON. L. EVANS: That is correct. MRS. C. OLESON: And what is the function of this area? Is it for press releases for the In formation Services, or what communications are you talking about in this area? HON. L.

EVANS: lt would be from time to time, yes, to put out general inform ation about the various employment programs, Social Allowance programs, but also to oversee the various pamphlets that have to go out, the Manitoba Supplement for Pensioners, the Child Related Income Support Program otherwise known as CRISP, the various programs on the employment side, various pamphlets of that nature, pretty well in line with what other communi cations' personnel do in the other departments. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(d) (1) - the Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

After having heard that, I can't let this go by, but I have to point out that when in opposition, this member as well as members of his party, chastised the previous administration for having any communi cations' people who weren't housed in the department which is now headed up by the Premier and I would just point that out as a matter of public interest. it's interesting to note how suddenly when one is put into a different position as the Mini ster is, suddenly it becomes okay and now we have communi cations' people in every department, not confined to one area within government. HON. L.

EVANS: I guess this debate went on last year and all I can say is, this is a policy decision that was made by the government based on the Weppler Report and the organization here. The set up is the same, I believe, as in the other departments. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(d)( 1)-pass; 1.(d)(2)-pass. 1.(e)(1), 1.(e)

(2) Financial and Administrative Services: Salaries, Other Exp enditur es - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Mr. Chairman, I notice from the listing that this department has 40 people. Could you explain the function of this department and why is it so labour-intensive? HON. L. EVANS: Okay.

First of all as you can imagine, it provides a central ized accou nting service, a centralized financial service for the department. 1t has a particularly large group because it adminis ters the Social Allowances Program, the Health Servic es Program of Social Allowance recipients. lt administers the mun icipal assistance rebate payments to municipal governments and it generally monitors departmental expenditures in relation to the budgets, and prepares claims for cost-sharing agreements.

I might add that it has one of the heaviest loads of this type of organization of any department because we deal with virtually hundreds of thousands of voucher claims, cheques and so on. We have about 20,000 Social Assistance recipients on the provincial rolls and, of course, we cost-share with the municipalities and there are thousands of additional recipients under the municipal welfare rolls. So, all in all, there's a very heavy administrative function.

I just might add, we're trying to get towards some more automation and we're moving in that direction, but there's still a great deal of paperwork to be done regardless. MRS. C. OLESON: Does this have any connection at all with the city, the Social Services Department, or are they completely separate from this, the City of Winnipeg, I mean? HON. L. EVANS: The City of Winnipeg, as all large municipalities in Manitoba, have their own Welfare Department or Social Assistance Department, if you like, and they admini ster payments under The Social Welfare Act of Manitoba and they do their own thing.

We cost-share with the municipal government under a formula. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(e)(1)-pass; 1.(e)(2)-pass. 1.(f)( 1), 1.(f)

(2) Personnel Services: Salaries, Other Expenditures - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Would the Mi nister just give a

summary of this department also? Am I correct in assuming there are six staff members there? 1037

Tuesday, 22 May, 1984 HON. L. EVANS: Yes. As it indicates, it is the Personnel Department and carries on all the work required in the hiring of people that are transfers or promotions and so on. We have a mana ger, two personnel administrators, one secretary and two payroll clerks for a total of six. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (f)(1) -pass; 1. (f)(2)-pass. 1. (g)(1) , 1. (g)

(2) Systems and Comp uter Su pport Services: Salaries, Other Expenditures -the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: This Comput er Support Service staffed four? HON. L. EVANS: Yes. MRS. C. OLESON: This probably ties in with (e), with the Financial and Administrative Services, does it, with the Computer Services? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, but it goes beyond that. All ma nual systems and all automa ted systems are developed in concert with recommendations or concerns of the Provincial Auditor.

Generally, all control and support systems are developed in this particular unit, so it can liaise with any other branch of the department. lt undertakes administrative operational reviews and develops administrative systems including forms design, various forms that we use, operational manuals, computer and word processing implications on various information requirements. lt has the responsibility of developing new and revised automated systems to support our new programs or existing programs. lt provides ongoing maintenance and upgrading of all existing computer programs. lt generally liaises with other agencies too, such as Manitoba Data Services.

MRS. C. OLESON: Are the Social Allowance payments on computer or is that something that's coming in, or at what stage is that? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, we're quite concerned about this. lt is in the process of being developed. lt was recommended by the task force on Social Allowances and monies had been set aside and it is being developed. lt is a very complicated procedure. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (g)( 1) -pass; 1. (g)(2)-pass. 2.(a)(1) , 2.(a)

(2) Economic Security -Administration: Salaries, 2.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures; 2.(a)(3)(

a) Social Services Advisory Committee-Salaries; 2.(a)(3)(

b) Other Expenditures -the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Now I want to know staff num bers for each of these in No. 2, as well, starting, of course, with (a)(1) . HON. L. EVANS: There are 27 staff years. MRS. C. OLESON: I see, yes, okay, .27. HON. L.

EV ANS: I can give you the breakdown as follows: We have an Assistant Deputy Minister, of course, in charge of this division of the department; one adminis trative secretary to the Assistant Deputy Mi nister; one Adminis trative Officer; three Program Analysts; four, Social Allowances Central Directorate; eight, Audit section; two, Central Records; two clerical support; 1.5 term positions; and we have 3.5 positions, 3.5 staff years as you will for The Social Allowances Automation Project which I just referred to. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Ho nourab le Memb er for Glad stone. MRS. C. OLESON: Going down to

(3) Social Services Advisory Committee, or Social Services Commission. Could the Min ister give me some information on that? Was it under Community Services before? Is it the same mandate as it had before? Give us some indication of just what this Commission does. HON. L. EVANS: Yes, the Social Services Advisory Committee is set under legislation under the provisions of The Social Services Adminis tration Act and The Social Allowances Act, and it is frankly a requirement of the federal cost-sharing assistance that every province has what amounts to a Welfare Appeal Board.

This committee is indeed our Welfare Appeal Board. Anyone who is in receipt of Social Assistance in Manitoba, whether it be provincial or municipal, and is unsatisfied or has any complaint about decisions made by the staff, has the right to go to the Social Services Advisory Commit tee, the Appeal Board in effect, to have the case reviewed. So it's a very active board. lt has to meet regularly. lt meets usually in small grou ps to hear appeals, and I believe unde r the legislation it has to deal with the appeals within 15 days of written notice of appeal.

The committee's decision orders are handed down within 48 hours of the appeal hearing. MRS. C. OLESON: How many are on that committee? If you said it, I missed it. HON. L. EVANS: Well, there are 10 or 11 or 12. The reason I'm giving different numbers is that from time to time people resign, there's a vacancy and we have to look for someone else -but between 10 and 12. MRS. C. OLESON: Is that set by legislation? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, it is. it's established by legislation. They normally meet in groups of three to hear the appeals.

We have somebody, for example, for Thompson who will sit down with the Chairman and some other member to hear appeals in the North. MRS. C. OLESON: This program is cost-shared with the Federal Government under what agreement, and what's the funding formula? HON. L. EVANS: The program including the cost of the Social Service Advisory Commit tee is shared under a program called the Canada Assistance Program, otherwise referred to as CAP, and the funding formula is 50-50. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Ho nourable Me m ber for Rhineland. 1038

Tue8day, 22 May, 1984 MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In previous years we've been informed that there are varying degrees of assistance given by different muni cipalities. Can the Min ister tell me, is the assistance more uniform at the present time or do we still have that problem of varying degrees of assistance? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, unfortunately we still have varying degrees of assistance, as the Memb er for Rhi neland describes.

The Task Force on Social Assistance headed up by Professor Ryant indica ted this as a problem and suggested that we work towards a uniform system, perhaps providing some incentives to the municipalities in doing this. lt's a matter that's under consideration but there hasn't been any move to date. MR. A. BROWN: Then I would expect that the appeals that have been made, most of the appeals would have been generated by assistance received from mu nicipalities. Can the Minister tell me how many appeals were made towards the depar tment? HON. L.

EVANS: In 19 82 there were 337; 1983, 434; and for this year 1984, we anticipate more or less the same num ber. I don't think I have a breakdown here whether they're provincial or municipal. lt doesn't follow that they'r e necessarily mun icipal complaints. They could just as well be provincial. MR. A. BROWN: We ll then, can the Min ister then tell me what was the nature of these complaints? What were these complaints about if they were not against mun icipalities then, what was the nature of th e complaints? HON. L.

EVANS: We ll, putting it in a nutshell, usually that they're not getting enough mone y. lt varies; it can be very very minor, such as allowance under a special needs category that they should have some money for baby-sitting while they go to the doctor - that's sort of a petty example - all the way to a question of whether they should get more money for food because of special circums tances.

The idea of the board is to take care of various special circumstances and while you have the regulations that are adminis tered as well as we can by a staff that I think is very dedicated and very concerned , nevertheless, there are areas for judgment and there are areas for some disagreement and sometimes the re gulations have to be looked at again and that's what the Appeal Board does. MR. A. BROWN: Can the Minister give me some kind of indication, in a general sort of way, as to what would the perc e ntage be of cases between the City of Winni peg and their rural muni cipalities or ru ral Manitoba? HON. L.

EVANS: Mr. Chairman, the member is asking for a breakdown of the appeals of the municipal category and having that broken down between the City of Winnipeg and the rest of the province. I don't believe I have that particular set of statistics with me, but I would venture to say that they probably break down on a population basis at least. The City of Winnipeg has 60 percent, using the census defi nition of Winnip eg which includes just a little bit out of the Perime ter, such as Headingle y.

The City of Winnipeg has about 60 percent of the population of the province, and it probably has a little bit more than that in terms of welfare cases because, for whatever reason, many people who are unem ployed and are in different circumstances seem to end up in Winnipeg. I would say that of the municipal welfare you could probably break it down on that population basis. We can try to get the information, I don't have it with me this evening. MR. A.

BROWN: The reason I am asking this, I was just wondering whether there were more appeals coming forward from the rural area because some municipalities over there could be accused of not living up to the assistance which was expected of them, and where the City of Winnipeg is always looked upon as being more lenient and that is the reason why 1 am asking this question, whether there are more appeals coming forward from the City of Winnipeg or from the rural area, just to get some kind of an idea what is going on. HON. L.

EVANS: Wel l, as I indicated, there are fewer recipients in rural Manitoba, that is, fewer recipients outside of Winnipeg. So, therefore, if you have fewer recipients you have fewer complaints and appeals, but we can try to get that breakdown for the member. I don't have it handy , but we 'll get that statistical information for the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: I would appreciate that information, Mr.

Chairman, because I think that it's rather important to see where these appeals are coming from and who the unhappy people are within the system, because 1 know that we all realize there are some municipalities that are probably pretty frugal with the assistance that they give. Yet I know that all the rural municpalitie s in Manitoba really look upon the city as being more lenient, and it will be interest ing to see where these complaints were coming from. So I would appreciate tha t information, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(1)- pass, Economic Security , Admin istra tion: Salaries; 2.(a) (2)- pass - Other Expenditures; 2.(a )(3)(

a) Social Services Advisory Committee, Salaries-pass; 2.(a)(3)(

b) Social Services Advisory Committee, Other Expen ditures- pass. 2. (b)

(1) Social Allo wance Program: Social Allowances; 2.(b)

(2) Health Services; 2.(b)

(3) Municipal Assistance - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. How many staff are required to adminis ter The Social Allowances Act? HON. L. EVANS: We have 200 in'83-84; we have 211. 5 staff years in field operations, and 4 staff years in the program Central Directorate which is part of the division's directorate. The request for'84-85 repres ents a decrease of five staff years in field operations and the same staff at the level in the Central Directorate. 1039

Tuesday, 22 May, 1984 MRS. C. OLESON: In the Task Force Report that the Minister referred to, it was suggested that the province move to a one-tier system under the jurisdiction of the province, a one-tier system of paying Social Assistance. I was wondering if the Min ister could comment on that idea and tell us how he sees it. HON. L. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, Manitoba is in the minority of provinces in Canada; 7 out of 10 provinces admin ister the entir e Social Assistance Program. In other words, all welfare is paid out by the provincial government and no muni cip alit ies are involved.

I believe it's Manitoba, Ontario and Nova Scotia where there is some form of mun ici pal involvement. We are prepared to look at replacing municipal assistance with provincial assistance, in other words, going to a one-tier system. One problem, of course, is that it would cost a lot of money and money is rather short these days.

On the other hand, we would wish to give some consideration to some kind of incentive or volunt ary system, and I believe Professor Ryant suggests that you have some kind of a voluntary system so that if and when we move in this direction, you would allow the mu nicipalities to come in or stay out of a combined or integrated system. I think .if there are, therefore, some muni cipalities that wish to stay out of it, well, they could do so. On the other hand, I could advise the member that there have been one or two muni cipalities who would be interested - for sure one or two or maybe many more - of getting out.

I am thinking particularly of the rural municipalities which have very few cases and it's more of a nu isance to them than the bigger cities and muni cipalities that have a full-time staff dealing with it, such as the City of Brandon, for example. MRS. C. OLESON: I think the Min ister touched on one important point with the rural municipalities.

Some of them have so little to deal with that they're not really equipped; their staff isn't equipped to deal with it maybe in the way that it should be - I am not being negative about them - they just haven't the training and they have to deal with it so infrequently that it is a problem. But I am wondering why the Min ister mentions that it would be the cost. Does he see it as a more expensive way of providing the assistance and why would it be more costly, if he thinks it is. HON.

L EVANS: At the present time, we cost-share municipal assistance with the muni cipality. lt can be a complicated formula but in some cases we pay half, let's say. So if municipality X, which now pays half and we pay half, and we pick up the entire bill, that's an additional burden to the provincial taxpayers. We estimate, and I don't have the numb ers here, but I believe the estimate is that it could almost double - wait a minute, I shouldn't put it this way - it would almost double if we implemented all of the Ryant Report recommendations. He goes beyond just taking the municipalities.

I would say this very safely, that it would add a su bstantial amount of expenditure to the provincial budget if we moved in, but I think there is rationale for this. I think it would relieve the urban muni cipalities 1040 or rural municipalities, of a certain burden and at the same time provide for a mor e unif orm system throughout the province. MRS. C. OLESON: I think in referring to the fact of the cost almost doubling, if that's the Min ister's words, I think he is forgetting that there are taxpayers already paying some of it.

So if he took into consideration that it's the same taxpayers, in essence, so doubling might not really be the exact picture when it was paid in one place and put into another because it's being paid for at one level or another now. I am wondering if the Min ister has had any feedback or comments from the municipal people since the task force came out, or how widely publ icized is the Task Force Report? HON. L EVANS: Just to go back to your very first item, I want to clarify, when I talked about doubling our expenditure, I was referring to implementing the entire Ryant Report.

The estimate of takeover costs, if you want to use that term, is $12 million to $14 million if we moved out. The last question you were asking how widely distributed is this information, we sent a copy of the report to every mu nicipality in Manitoba plus to other interested organizations and parties and associations, etc. We distributed over 1, 000 copies throughout the province. Mr. Chairman, I believe the member asked another question and I forgot. MRS. C. OLESON: I asked you what feedback you'd had from the report, what sort of opinions did people express about the proposals. HON.

L EVANS: Is the member talking about the entire report or just on municipal assistance? MRS. C. OLESON: Mainly the muni cipal assistance. HON. L. EVANS: Well, my information and impression is that we haven't had as much feedback as I would have liked to have seen. lt hasn't been that great. But what feedback we've had, there's been no opposition to the idea that the Provincial Government should move into this field, not that I can recall. In fact, some have specifically stated or asked, when are you going to take it over? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My question to the Min ister, Mr. Chairman, is, when a municipality is approached for assistance by an individual, as often is the case they refer the person to apply for provincial assistance rather than municipal assistance, where is the line drawn as to who supplies the assistance in a case like that? Is it a case of how long the person would be establi shed in that giv en area, or how is it approached? HON. L EVANS: Well, there is a time factor and there is a factor of the type of situation that the individual finds himself or herself in. Normally, the mun icipality

is the first line of assistance, particularly short-term assistance, somebody who's transient or somebody who just needs help for a few we eks. That normally is dealt with by the municipal government, and of course, we cost-share with them. On the other hand if they'r e deemed to be employable, unemplo yed employable, and they continue to be in that category, then they remain on the municipal welfare role. However, if they're deemed to be of the category that is not employable, then they become a provincial re sponsibility.

That include s, I might add, of the 21 ,000 to 22,000 cases that we have presently, about half roughly of them are of a disabled category, people who are mentally hand icapped, people you see around in wheelchairs and so on. Many of those people are in that category of disabled, about half, roughly of our total. Another large category is what is referred to as Mothers' Allowances. According to our legislation which goes back many years, in Manitoba if you are a mother without any means of support, no husband to support you, you can automatically apply for Social Assistance. it's an automatic provision in the act.

Last year, the estimate was a little as 7,000 out of the 21 ,000 - 22,000, and it's about the same this year. it's between 7,000 and 8,000. There's another category referred to as the Aged. There are some people who are 65 years of age and over who get supplementary Social Assistance even though they may have the old age security and the GIS, they've got some special needs and we help them through this program.

We also have categories, believe it or not, there are certain categories of children and then there are some other miscellaneous categories, but the two largest areas are Disabled and the Mothers' Allowances, those are the two largest categories. So those are the people who are on the provincial, the rest are municipal. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Another item mentioned in the Task Force Report was some incentive for people on Social Assistance to earn some mone y toward their own maintenance.

I'm wondering what is currently being done, if anything, to give people some incentive. lt seems sometimes from what you hear about it that people who do earn some amount of money, some kind of work, it's really a disincentive because then they get so much taken off their Social Assistance. Is there anything the Mi nister can say that will help this problem? HON. L. EVANS: This is a good point.

We would like to do more to help people get off Social Allowances, particularly the Mothers' Allowance categories, because in some instances you have women whose children are grown up to a stage where they can get out of the house, inde ed want to get out of the house, but they have some difficulty because they've been out of the work force for so long. Und er another program, the Human Resources Opportunity Program, we are attempting to make some assistance available. lt's called the VIA, Voluntary Incentive Allowance, whereby these people could, in 1041 eff ect, receive some allowances.

They could receive them as Moth ers' Allo wances and obtain some supplement ary or they could come into these projects, the Human Resource Opportunity Projects, such as West Bran in Brandon, and there are six others around the province, and through that organization come under assistance there and obtain a supplementary form of incentive. They would get some life skills training. We 'd place them in a work situation, either in a sheltered workshop or a real work situation with some emplo yer or some institution. But that's one specific program.

Presently, we have a work incentive program where a recipient can receive 30 percent of their gross earnings or $50 a month, whichever is greater. There's another element too, we have a Student Social Allowance Program which is considered to be the best in Canada, where we're trying to get people who can get some advantage from going to college or university, and give them some assistance to get that training so they can get off welfare. MRS. C.

OLESON: I think this is very important because the government and the taxpayers, to say nothing of the person on Social Assistance that people, as soon as they can, become self-suf ficient, I'm sure the people who are on it in the most part are anxious to have that happen and any help in that regard would be useful. I'm wondering, there have been articles in the paper once in a while about fathers applying for Social Assistance, that's single fathers who are taking care of youngsters, I'm wondering how many of these cases the Minis ter would kno w abo ut.

In the Attorney­ General's Estimates I asked about this in connection with one news item and he said there was legislation forthcoming to do with this. I'm wondering if this is part of a legisla tive package under this Min ister, or is it the Attorney-Gener al's department that the legislation would be und er. I would just like some comments on this from the Min ister. HON. L. EVANS: The answer is both, Mr. Chairman. lt will be included in the Statute Law Amendment Bill this year, which is an omnibus bill with miscellaneous and a variety of measures that affect various departments and there will be one

section which will ensure that The Social Allowances Act does not contravene The Human Rights Act, which it does now, and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. There has been quite a bit of discussion about this and we've had many complaints with regard to how sole-support fathers are being discrimina ted against. At any rate, that will be addressed , as you've indicated, by the Attorney-General when he brings it in under The Statute Law Amendments Bill. MRS. C.

OLESON: I believe the Minister may have referred to this a moment ago, but in last year's Estimates there was reference to a work activity project for people on Social Assistance. They made a dollar an hour in basic training. Is this still ongoing, this program, and Is it still a dollar an hour? HON. L. EVANS: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, the incentive is still provided. lt's not a dollar an hour; it's $40 a week.

Tuesday, 22 May, 1984 lt was calculated because we had to take into account the minimum wage in Manitoba and the allowances we provided the clients in the Human Resources Opportunity Program. We can discuss this further when we get into that particular section, but th ere are some technic al problems and we think that the $40 -we don't regard it as a wage, we regard it as an incentive allowance that really helps offset some additional costs, that people who are coming out of the home and having to go to work now will have, whether it be transportation costs, bus fare, car, extra clothing or whatever. MRS. C.

OLESON: There was reference made in last year's Annual Report of the Department of Community Services about emergency social services. lt said that this department is responsible for providing five essential social services to disaster victims and where municip al and provincial services are unable to meet their needs. These are lodging, food, clothing, personal service, registration and enquiry. Is that something that is under this Minis ter and still in operation? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I think the member is referring to the Emergency Measures Organization. MRS. C.

OLESON: lt was under Community Services last year. HON. L. EVANS: Perhaps the member is referring to assistance that we do provide to some people who are in special need. I think, for example, of the crisis shelters for women in Manitoba that we have, whereby some women with their families may not have any means of support and we would provide them, under the Social Allowances Program, with some financial support to enable them to have food, clothing and so forth and to enable them to live in the shelter. Perhaps that's what the member's referring to. MRS. C. OLESON: I don't believe so.

This is disaster victims, if there's a flood or . . . HON. L. EVANS: We do provide the food vouchers and I guess other emergency financial assistance for those who qualify, but it's co-ordinated -as it says in the report -by the Emergency Measures Organization. MRS. C. OLESON: That would be under th e Department of Government Services then. HON. L. EVANS: The co-ordination is under EMO. I guess we get the bill. They dish it out and send us the bill. MRS. C. OLESON: lt eventually bounces back to you. HON. L. EVANS: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My question is, have the qualifications for the Social Assistance Program been changed so much as to who qualifies for Social Assistance from the previous year, because I notice there's a $6 million inc rease. I was just wondering if the Minis ter could explain this $6 million increase which is well above the 3 percent guideline which the government has set. HON. L. EVANS: No, it doesn't relate to a change in the criteria. it's essentially because of an increased caseload, plus an increase in the rates of assistance. Each year we take a look at the changing cost of living.

We look at food, clothing. personal needs, household supplies. We have information from Statistics Canada and also from the Federal Department of Agriculture and we make an analysis of this cost of liv ing as it would im pact on our average Social Allowance recipient and make an adjustment; so we adjust the rates from time to time. We do pay the utilities at cost. In other words, if a welfare recipient was in a house, we would pay the electricity bill that the recipient has and we would pay the gas bill if they had natural gas and so on, so those costs are increasing.

Basically it's a combination of these price increases and then of course, as I indicated, there could be a work load change, that is an increase in caseload and I believe we projected a 2 percent increase caseload in here, so of that $6 million I would say, about $4 million is attributed to price in creases and $2 million to anticipated growth in the case load. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, what the Min ister is really saying is th at he doesn 't have too much confidence in what the other Mi nisters have been espousing from time to time, in that we have nothing but blue skies ahead, that the economy is picking up.

The Min ister of Natural Resources says things have never been better and they're going to keep on being okay. The Mi nister of Agriculture has things under control; the Minister of Housing says that we have a huge increase in housing, that everybody is going to be employed. We will see no unemployment. The Member for The Pas has corrected the problem of crooked two-by-fours and he says that sales are going good and I'm glad for all of these things, Mr. Chairman.

I'm extremely pleased that things are looking so good, but my problem now is, if things are so good, then how come this Mi nister is predicting a 2 percent increse in caseload. Something just doesn't fit. I'm just wondering whether the Min ister does not share the confidence that I have in the Mi nisters who've told us that things were going to be just rosy from now on. Obviously, the Minis ter doesn't share the confidence that I have in the government. I wonder if the Mi nister can explain how he arrived at a 2 percent inc rease in caseload. HON. L.

EVANS: The increase in the caseload, I think, can be attributed to three factors, one of which is the increasing number of Mothers' Allowance cases. For whatever reason, we have more single-parent families. I guess it's the changing nature of our society, but for whatever reason, that is one big area of anticipated in crease. Remember, we're talking about 2 percent, so when I say big, I say it in a relative way. The other, we do have some increases antici pated among the dis abled category and again, that's a projection, just based upon the pattern of the last few 1042

Tuesday, 22 May, 1984 years. I don't know whether we're going to be right or wrong, but these are the two areas we see as increasing. There's an overriding consideration as well, I suppose, and that is the fact that Manitoba's population is increasing. Our rate of population increase has been the biggest the last year that it has been since the Second World War and the post Second World War period - so what we're doing is sort of projecting on the basis of our past experience and this is where we've seen the increases, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you.

I wonder if the Minister has the figures on what size of a case load there was on Social Assistance in 1981 and what the figures are now, 1983. HON. L. EVANS: Yes. In 1981 the Provincial Social Allowance cases were 19, 057; 1983 there are 20,864; 1982 they went up to 19,483. Now as I said, they're 20,864, but the pattern is there. The pattern is that the increase is in Mothers' Allowances and the Disabled category. I don't know why we have more disabled.

Maybe in that particular category because of more mentally retarded living in the comm unity, being independent and so forth, but that's what it is, it's a projection of the past trend that's been evident for a couple of years. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b)( 1)- pass; 2.(b)(2) -the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is Health Services. Was this formerly with the Health Department, or has this always been with the Social Services? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, this has always been with the Social Services Division. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b) (2)- pass; 2.(b)

(3) Municipal Assistance -the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you. There's a line here that says Recoverable from Canada. Could the Mini ster tell us what agreement that is and what is the cost-sharing then as the payment to municipalities for assistance in paying their welfare payments, is that correct? HON. L. EVANS: Just to clarify. Mr. Chairman, is the member talking about the Recoverable from Canada or the recoverable by the municipalities for Manitoba? MRS. C.

OLESON: Well, in the first instance, the heading -we'll go back then, I'm sorry, to the Municipal Assistance headin g - I take it tha t means your department pays the municipalities the cost-sharing? HON. L. EV ANS: Yes, and in turn we cost-share that with the fads. MRS. C. OLESON: And in turn it's cost-shared with Canada. What agreement is that and what is the cost­ sharing? HON. L. EVANS: As I indicated before, that's the Canada Assistance Plan. MRS. C. OLESON: Yes, that's the same plan. HON. L. EVANS: Yes, it's the same agreement and it's 50-50. MRS. C. OLESON: 50-50. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 2.(b)(3)-pass. 2.(c) ( 1) Ma nitoba Suppl ement for Pensioners, Salaries; 2.(c)

(2) Other Expenditures; 2.(c)

(3) Financial Assistance -the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Could the Minister indicate how many staff members there would be in this department? HON. L. EVANS: Well, just as indicated on the list then, Mr. Chairman, there are four people. MRS. C. OLESON: Oh, I'm sorry, yes, four people. And this is also under the same agreement as the Municipal Assistance, with the Federal Government that is? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, there is no cost-sharing with the Federal Government on this program. MRS. C.

OLESON: Just under Line 3 it ind icates Recoverable from Canada, so is that a direct grant from the Federal Government? HON. L. EVANS: Apparently there is some aspect. The program itself, the moneys to the pensioners is provided by the Manitoba taxpayers, but there's some elements of the administration that we can cost-share under CAP. So wherever we can cost-share, we cost-share and get as much as we can out of Ottawa. MRS. C. OLESON: Yes, that makes sense. HON. L. EVANS: But the money itself, the actual pension to the pensioner, is Manitoba taxpayers' money. MRS. C.

OLESON: it's a direct payment by the Manitoba ... HON. L. EVANS: By the province and its paid quarterly, yes. MRS. C. OLESON: This shows a decrease in funding, could the Mini ster explain that? HON. L. EVANS: One of the reasons is, we have a criteria for pay out and as the Old Age Security has gone up with indexing and the Guaranteed Income Supplement has been enriched over the years, there's been a reduction in the eligibility for the Manitoba supplement and therefore we're estimating a slight decrease for those 65 years of age and over. This is eligible for those between 55 and 65 as well.

We don't anticipate a decrease there. In fact, we think that there'll be a bit of an increase. The other thing I forgot to mention, there are more people who are eligible for Canada Pension Plan, CPP, and that's a big thing, the Canada Pension Plan. 1043

TUesday, 22 May, 1984 MRS. C. OLESON: Could the Minister just indicate for the record what the criteria is for that supplement for pensioners. How much is it and what . . . HON. L. EVANS: Ok ay, there are two components. The 65-and -over component is for Old Age Security pensioners who are in receipt of certain levels of the GIS. The other component refers to the 55-and-over and it's for pensioners, as I say, for 55 years and over who don't get any Old Age Security benefits but whose income falls within a certain specified range and is deriv ed at least 50 percent from pension sources.

At any rate, tho se who are 65-and-over are automatically enrolled in the Manitoba Supplement for Pensioners Program on the basis of their application for the GIS. The pensioners in the 55-years-and-over category must apply for the supplement each benefit year which beg ins on July 1st. The income eligibility levels are increased periodically and in accordance with the changing cost of living and so on. The amount that we pay out is a rel atively small amount. The maximum benefit available at the present time is - this is annually - $187.68 for a single pensioner and $202.32 for each member of a married couple.

So it's relatively a small amount but those who get it certainly seem to be very desirous of continuing to receive it because they ensure that they reapply each year. If you're under 65 and if there's any holdup if you're over 65, we sure hear about it. So people seem to appreciate it even though it's a small amount. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry I was at another meeting and I just got back a bit late to catch the Social Allowance Program and I just want to ask a couple of quick questions. I wonder if the Minister might rev ert.

First of all, I just wonder what ratio - Recoverable from Canada $75,879,000 - I was just wondering what ratio . . . ? HON. L. EV ANS: lt's 50-50. MR. D. BLAKE: lt's 50-50? HON. L. EVANS: Ye s, it's 50-50. The Member for Gladstone asked me that quest ion. MR. D. BLAKE: 75 plus 75 comes to 15 0 million and there's only 137 million being spent; I thought it was 50-50. HON. L. EVANS: Ok ay, it's a little complicated because of the municipalities. lt's 50 percent of the total but you have to take also into consideration the municipalities pick up a portion. MR. D.

BLAKE: You probably covered the study that was done on the welfare system? You've covered that previously and I can get that in Hansard? HON. L. EVANS: We ll, there was some discussion. The Member for Gladstone asked some questions about the implementation of that report. · MR. CHAIRMAN: Questions have been answered before, Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: As long as I can get it in Hansard, Mr. Chairman. That's my point because I have some constituents that have asked me to question the Minister on that. HON. L.

EVANS: We ll, if you have some specific questions, I'd be glad to answer it or you can send them to me. MR. D. BLAKE: We ll, no. lt was just a couple of municipal people that asked me what happened to the study. They were looking for some results from it. Was the report going to be tabled? Could they get a copy of it, and what was going to be done with it? When would it be implemented? HON. L. EVANS: We ll, we distributed a copy to every munici pality, Mr. Chairman. In fact, we distributed over 1, 000 copies to various organizations, including municipalities.

As I've ind icated to the Member for Gladstone, we are looking at some kind of a phase- In system where it would be voluntary, but it would increase our costs $12 million to $14 million if we took over all municipal welfare. Half of that, of course, is the City of Winnipeg and it's an additional cost for the provincial taxpayers, yes. MR. D. BLAKE: I will get that out of Hansard, Mr. Chairman, then. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (c)( 1) - pass; 2. (c)(2 )-pass; 2.(c)(3)-pass. 2.(d)

(1) Child Related Inc ome Support Program: Salaries; 2.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures; 2.(d)

(3) Financial Assistance - the Memb er for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are at 2.(

d) Child Related Income Support Program? MR. CHAIRMAN: Ye s, that's right. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you. A staff of 16 looking after that? HON. L. EVANS: That's correct. MRS. C. OLESON: What are the income qualifications for families applying for this program? HON. L. EVANS: The level is adjusted each year, depe nding on the cost-of- living cha nge, or the Consu mer Price Index. lt varies, but if you have one child under 18, the maximum benefits are paid at or below $1 0,388.00. Now it will go up as you have more children.

If you have six childr en under 18 years of age, we will pay the maximum benefit at or below an annual income of $1 3,495.00. MRS. C. OLESON: How much is it per child then? HON. L. EVANS: it's $30 per month per child. MRS. C. OLESON: This also is cost-shared with the Federal Government. Is this on the 50-50 basis also? 1044

Tuesday, 22 May, 1984 HON. L. EVANS: If the family who has applied for CRISP is on Social Allowances, we can cost-share the CRISP payments. If the family is not on Social Allowances, there is no cost-sharing. I would suggest the bulk of this money is paid out by the Manitoba Government. MRS. C. OLESON: The Provincial Government, yes . HON. L. EVANS: Ye s. MRS. C. OLESON: There is a reduction in funds allocated this year. Can the Minister explain this? HON. L. EVANS: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, this is based on our experience.

We believe that - no, it's related to the response - the takeup of that money that was provided last year was less than 100 percent. Although $8.55 million was provided , we didn't spend as much as we are asking for this year. There was another expenditure of $1 .853 million approximately, so we believe that this amount is realistic. MRS. C. OLESON: I am just wondering, Mr. Chairman, if the Mothers' Allowance comes into this department. HON. L. EVANS: Well, as I indicated, if you are on Social Allowances, say, as a Mothers' Allowance categor y, you can get some CRISP mone y. MRS. C.

OLESON: Ye s, but I am not just ref erring to the CRISP; but is this the department under which the Mothers' Allowance falls? HON. L. EVANS: Ye s, it's the same division. MRS. C. OLESON: So it's adminis tered through this same area. HON. L. EVANS: Ye s, Economic Security. MR. CH AIRM AN: 2.(d) (1) - pass; 2. (d) (2)- pass; 2.(d)(3)- pass. 2.(e)( 1) Economic Security Field Opera tions: Salaries; 2.(e)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Could the Minis ter indicate the staff numb ers for this? I am just confused by this list here. And also, could the Minister explain the function of this department? HON. L. EVANS: The Field Operations, as indicated on the list there, show a little over 206 staff years. This is the Field Operat ion; these are the people who actually deal with the recipients. MRS. C. OLESON: The caseworkers. HON. L. EVANS: They are the actual caseworkers, yes. MRS. C. OLESON: That's what I was getting at. HON. L.

EVANS: They are scattered throughout the province, well dispersed throughout the province to deal with the cases. They are dispersed in accordance with the population. MRS. C. OLESON : Ho w many offices does the department maintain throughout the province? HON. L. EVANS: There are 14 offices. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, some time ago there was, and maybe still is, some consideration given to taking away some of the welfare responsibility from the mun icipalities and placing it solely with the province. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The member is supposed to be notified that this has been discussed before he came. MR. J. DOWNEY: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, lt may be discussed before I came, but are we not in that area right now? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, just for clarification, the question that the honourable member posed, indeed, was posed by the Member for Gladstone and the Member for Minnedosa and was discussed in terms of the policy implications of the Ryant Report. What we are discussing now is the Field Operations, the actual deli very. These are the people that receive the applications and oversee the payout, etc.

I don't mind discussing it, but we have discussed it at least on two other occasions this even ing. MR. CHAIRMAN: You can always discuss that again under Minister's Salary. The Memb er for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, is the Minister satisfied that the way the system is working is satisfactory, that there won't be any changes? He can answer it in a short manner. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I am not satisfied. We would like to implement many of the recommendations of the Ryant Report. The problem is they tend to be costly.

Just to move into the muni cipal welfare field, as I indi cated twice before, would cost us between $12 million and $14 million. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minn edosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Just while we are on that, has the Minis ter considered turning the welfare roll back to the municipalities in full? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, as I indicated, 7 out of the 10 provinces handle all the welfare. There is no municipal assistance in 7 out of 10 Canadian provinces. Manitoba, Ontario and Nova Scotia have a municipal system in place.

I suppose we could consider doin g that if the municipalities want to shoulder the extra cost. lt's something to consider, I suppose. I don't think they would be very recept ive. Any correspondence I have had it's the other way around. MR. D. BLAKE: it's not under active consideration then? 1045

Tuesday, 22 May, 1984 HON. L. EVANS: No. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(e)( 1) -p ass; 2. (e)(2)-pass. Resolution No. 60: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $15 4,971 ,400 for Employment Services and Economic Security for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1985-p ass. 3. (a)( 1) Em ployment Services, Admini stra tion: Salaries; 3.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Glad stone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am seeing here that there are seven people employed in this area? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, this is the Admin istration of the Employment Services division. MRS. C. OLESON: Does that reflect an increase in staff over what it took to admin ister that program in the past, these programs in that department? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I should clarify. I have a note here that actually that number should be eight, if you include an additional person from another area, but it is essentially the same as last year.

We had seven last year in Admin istration and there are seven this year, but there is this one additional staff position . . . MRS. C. OLESON: This was lifted out of the Labour Department, I take it, the entire operation? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minn edosa. MR. D. BLAKE: The Member for Gladstone is finished then? MRS. C. OLESON: Yes, that's fine. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, I gather the Minister's own remarks at the Selkirk Plant came under this particular

section in Employment Services? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, (d)(3). MR. CHAIRMAN: lt will come under (d)(3) on Page 61. The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I notice that this particular

section looks after the immigrant workers and has that responsibility for that area. Can the Minister indicate at what stage the Portage la Prairie immigrant workers, is that the Mexican labour type employment comes in and the . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: We haven't reached that p art. That will be in 3.(c). MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, you know, it says in the ... MR. CHAIRMAN: We are still in 3.(a)( 1) ... MR. J. DOWNEY: lt says in the outline, if I may, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: . . . and 3.( a)(2). MR. J. DOWNEY: If I may, in the outline, it suggests - and that's what we're being asked to debate are we not? - Employment Services, 3.(

a) Salaries. Well, you can deal with wherever you want if you want to put it off, but it says in the

preamble "Im migr ant Employment." HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, just on a point of order, that description which the Member for Arthur refers to relates to Item 3. it's a description of everything under 3. What we're suggesting is the item that the member is interested in, which is described in that paragraph, is deli neated under

section (

c) of Item 3. The description pertains to the whole of No. 3. MR. CHAIRMAN: We can pass this one and go to 3. The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, there's been a precedent set and this is the time when the present government were in opposition, that they insisted that they could talk about anything under a

preamble that is as wide as that. I want it brought to the attention of the Chairman and the committee that if I feel that I'd like to debate it under this, I think the Minister should be prepared to do so. it's listed in the

preamble and should be debated if that's the desire of the committee. MR. CHAIRMAN: Rule 64.(2) states: "Speeches in the Committee of the Whole House must be strictly relevant to the item or clause under discussion." The item or clause un der di scussion is 3.(a)( 1) Salaries, Admin istration and Other Expenditures. We haven't called Immigration and Settlement Services. The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, how many people are employed in looking after the immigration people that come in to work in the Portage vegetable fields or other vegetable fields . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: We haven't . . . MR.

J. DOWN EY: ... in the Salaries in this department, Mr. Chairman? HON. L. EVANS: Well, Mr. Chairman, the four salaries, if we're discussing 3.(a)( 1) Salaries, those Salaries are comprised of the Assistant Deputy Minister of the entire Employment Services Division, plus three support staff that he has, plus an additional four clerical support. So, they provide the overall administration, the central admini stration for the entire Employment Services Division of the department. These people specifically do not deal in the front line with this particular question.

If it's within our jurisdiction - because I haven't heard the whole question - it would be dealt with by the Immigration and Settlement staff. 1046 MR. J. DOWNEY: Which one of these people that he's mention ed is responsible for the Imm ig ration Department or Immigration Program?

TUesday, 22 May, 1984 MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you want to continue answering questions when it's not . . . ? MR. J. DOWNEY: We ll, somebody's got to be responsible and that's what they're doing. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, there is a Director of Immigration and Settlement and that person's salary is under (c)(1). I'll be glad to give you that information, it's not a problem of giving it. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think for the purpose of orderly proce eding in this committee, we have to wait until the item is called out. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I want the record to show that this Min ister is not co-operating with the committee as far as dealing with the

preamble is concerned. I went through an harrassment under his people when they were in opposition . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, that's exactly what it was. Read the record if you can read. I'll wait, Mr. Chairman. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I want to put it on the rec ord, if the comm ittee so desires and directs me, I'll answer his question right now; if the committee so desires. I want to co-operate with the membe r. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Committee has to operate under certain rules. Either we obey the rules or we don't.

If we obey the rules, there'll be order; if we don't, there will be chaos. Which one do you want? MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. I think the point that the Member for Arthur is trying to make is that under many other Estimates discussions, we had a wide-r anging discussion on all the items under the subheading 61, and then the whole thing was passed. MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll call the whole thing if that's what you want. I think it's better to focus on certain num bers, certain clusters of items that are related.

So, let's pass 3.(a)(1) if you want; 3.(a)(1) - pass; 3.(a)(2)-pass; 3.(b)( 1) Employment Development and Youth Services: Salaries; 3.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures - I'm calling them out - 3.(b)

(3) Employment Program; 3.(b)(4)(

a) Northern Development, Manitoba Careers Travel; 3(b)(4)(

b) Less: Recover able from Northern. MR. D. BLAKE: Fine, we're back to (b)

(1) Salaries, are we? MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(1) . MR. D. BLAKE: Can I play with the card or do I have to use a sheet? MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm calling all the b's. MR. D. BLAKE: How are we going to get bingo if you only call b's? HON. L. EVANS: You have to have the right card. MR. CHA IRMAN: We are on (

b) Emplo yment Dev elopment and Youth Services and all the subitems under it. The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: I just want to clarify what staff are involved in this - 27? HON. L EVANS: Ye s. Mr. Chairman, that is correct. MRS. C. OLESON: That is to co-ordinate and deliver the programs, for instance, in the list that you gave me? HON. L. EVANS: Ye s, it is the general admin istration. We do have other people inv olved In delivering programs, but to some level, they do deliver and are responsible for the administration of programs.

They're mainly senior managers, program mana gers and emplo yment officers in the department. We do have field staff in addition to this. MRS. C. OLESON: In addition to that? In the 27? HON. L. EVANS: Ye s. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you. Now, when we get down to (3), Employment Programs - that is the listing you gave me - are there any other programs in that apportionment as well that we should be looking at? HON. L. EVANS: Ye s, Mr.

Chairman, there are various programs that this item covers, including STEP, the Student Employment Program; also the Manitoba Youth Jobs Centre Program whereby we have 42 students as managers of Youth Jobs Centres throughout rural and Northern Manitoba; and it includes volunteers in the public service, there is some money there to increase volunteer utilization; and it includes Careerstart. MRS. C. OLESON: There was a program called Hire a Student. Is the name being changed to the Job Centres? Am I correct? HON. L. EVANS: That's correct, Mr. Chairman.

Excuse me, I omitted the Northern Summer Education Program, as well is covered by this item. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)( 1) - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: You said that the Hire a Student had been changed to the Jobs Centre. Has the thrust of that been changed in any way? For instance, does that include people who are not students? That's a Youth Job Centre, am I correct in that? HON. L. EVANS: Ye s, it was last year. There are 42 Youth Job Centres throughout Man itoba, including Glenboro. There's one in Glenboro; there's one in Treherne - I don't know whether that's your riding or not. MRS. C.

OLESON: Ye s. 104 7

Tuesday, 22 May, 1984 HON. L. EVANS: Well, I can read them all off. Let's see - Melita is in there. There's Killarney, Boissevain, Deloraine, Melita - I am just reading the Westman ones. The southwest area is Brandon, Killarney, Boissevain, Deloraine, Melita, Hamiota, Glenboro and Treherne. I can give you the whole list if you like, but they are pretty well the same as in last year's Estimates. MRS. C. OLESON: How much money is allocated to that program? HON. L. EVANS: The Youth Jobs Centre Program is run in the sum mer, Mr. Chairman, by 42 students, and the expenditure is $17 7,400.00. MRS. C. OLESON: Okay.

How many staff are required to operate this program? Is that information available, a breakdown of that? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, 42 students hired for the summer. MRS. C. OLESON: No, I mean in the department, from the department point of view, not from the Jobs Centres themselves. HON. L. EVANS: There is no staff from the department in the youth centres. There is a qua lification, I guess, in the larger centres where there are Federal Manpower offices, employment offices. I think we may share some space with them but, as such, I don't believe that we have any of our staff in these youth centres.

We had utilized one person part-time to organize the centres. MRS. C. OLESON: That was orientation for the . HON. L. EVANS: Yes. MRS. C. OLESON: Training for the 42 students requires - what did you say - one person? HON. L. EVANS: Yes. For that specific program, I might add that we had the general admin istration of this division and these people are available also for lecturing the students, etc. MRS. C. OLESON: The STEP program, I am just wondering if the Minister could indicate how many people were employed under that program last year. HON. L. EVANS: Last year there were 862; this year we anticipate 868. MRS.

C. OLESON: Could the Minister indicate how long these students work, what length of time? HON. L. EVANS: They are essentially over the summer. The average salary this year is anticipated at being $2,300, so th at would give you some idea; yes, approximately 14 weeks upon average. MRS. C. OLESON: How many weeks was it last year? HON. L. EVANS: Slightly more than 14 weeks. MRS. C. OLESON: lt was slightly more than 14 weeks. How many people were involved last year? HON. L. EVANS: As I said, there were 862 last year. I gave that. MRS. C. OLESON: Well, how many this year then? HON. L. EVANS: 868. MRS. C.

OLESON: Sorry, I missed that. So actually then there is a few more people working for less time? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, a few more. MRS. C. OLESON: How much money was allocated last year and how much this year to the entire program? HON. L. EVANS: Last year the entire program was $2,377,000; this year it's $2,249, 100, a decrease of roughly $1 28,000.00. MRS. C. OLESON: A decrease. HON. L. EVANS: A slight decrease; it's generally the same level, a very slight decrease. MRS. C.

OLESON: One complaint there has been about this program is that the wages, from year to year, don't reflect the cost that students have when they go back to university, that their costs are rising and other wages, of course, in community are rising, but this, it doesn't rise to meet their needs. Could the Minister comment on that? HON. L.

EVANS: I guess the students would always like to receive a bit more money than they do, but we thought we should maintain the same salary levels because we wanted to keep as many jobs available, we wanted to spread the money around as much as possible, and we felt it would be prudent to keep the salary levels the same and try to keep the same num ber of students as in 19 83 and that, generally, is what happened. I think one feature of the program is, of course, not only do they get employed but they very often find some very useful experience related to their future career in government.

There is a very, very wide variety of occupations and career challenges for. the STEP students. it's distri buted among th e di fferent departments, of course. MRS. C. OLESON: This program didn't always apply just to government jobs, did it? At what point did it change? HON. L. EVANS: Six or seven years ago, Mr. Chairman. 1048 MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Min ister could inform us whether the pay scale for STEP students remain the same or has it increased.

Tueeday, 22 May, 1984 HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I thought we'd just answered that. it's the same this year as last year. MR. R. BANMAN: Would the Minis ter confirm that the students have been reduced from 16 weeks to 14 weeks? HON. L. EVANS: The average job duration last year was 14 weeks and we anticipate the average job duration to be 14 weeks this year. MR. R. BANMAN: Would the Min ister confirm that students that did have 16-week jobs last year have been sent notices that they would only be paid for 14 weeks this year? HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, there may be a few cases whereby one or two positions have a lower number of weeks available this year but, as I say, the average is the same this year as it was last year. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Chairman, we have a reduction in the amount of funds being provided for STEP students and I want to point that out to the Minister because had this been done four or five years ago, the then opposition, of which he was a member at that time, would have screamed long and hard that the government of that day was not only not keeping up with inflation, but was actually cutting back in the amount of money that was being provided to people who are unemployed in the youth segment of our population. So we have an example here, Mr.

Chairman, of the government not only not keeping up with inflation, but actually cutting back on the STEP program in this province. At a time when they are advertising the Jobs Fund, of all the money they're spending for job creation, this Mi nister has cut the STEP Program in his department. I want to tell the Mi nister that cutting back the amount of time that a student is allowed to work has enabled him to get up on the floor of the Legislature and say that he is employing six more students this year.

When one looks at a statistical basis, that might be good, but what has happened is that it is being done at the expense of a lot of students who require those two extra weeks of work to pay tuition, to pay their expenses to put them through school and many of them have now received notices that they will not be paid for the 16 weeks, which they were the year before, but have been cut down to 14 weeks. Mr. Chairman, from a government, from a party who when in opposition cried long and hard about cutbacks, we once again have an example of what they do when they are given the reins of government.

You've got a Mi nister here who used to produce reams of statistics showing what was happening in the unemployment field. He once again is juggling the figures and we see an example here of when given the authority and the confidence of the people of Manitoba -what do they do? - they cut back the STEP Student Program by $13 0,000.00. Mr. Chairman, I think this Min ister should have a good tong look at what he said th ree or four years ago and see how that squares with what he's doing now when he's left in charge of programs, and actually is causing reductions which he decried when he was in opposition. HON. L.

EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I ind icated that the number of students this year will be slightly more than the number of students involved in the program last year. I would point out that what we're talking about here are jobs inside the Provincial Government. In addition to that, there is considerably more money that's going to be made avai labl e for young people in Manitoba in job creation. They're in the Estimates. We haven't announced all the programs.

They will be announced, as I have ind icated in the House, in the near future, but we will be spending more money on youth employment programs this year than ever before. We have some new ini tiatives that we are exploring. I would say that there will be more young people put to work through various programs in the coming year than last year. We can go into a lot of detail on that, but STEP is only one thrust. it's a thrust of jobs in the Manitoba Government. We believe there are jobs in the private sector that should be supported and we're supporting that more than ever before. MR. R. BAN MAN: Mr.

Chairman, let the record be very clear that this Minister has taken funds from the STEP Program to introduce what he calls new programs and bolsters some of the other programs the government is advertising in the Jobs Fund and he cannot today sit here and say that he has created more jobs and that slipped out. In the statistics that he was putting forward, he says he created six new jobs. Well, if you want to create another 800 new jobs, cut everybody back to seven weeks and employ another 800 people and only pay them for seven weeks.

If that's the type of bookkeeping juggling that you're going to do, the people of Manitoba are finding out because we're getting calls from students who worked 16 weeks last year and have said, I've been cut back to 14, what's happening?

So what we're seeing here is that the government is cutting back on an existing program, is using those funds either in Jobs Fund or what they call innovative programs, and really what we're seeing is that the government is using the same amount of dollars that they probably would have used under normal conditions with normal increases and using them and spending more of the taxpayers' dollars in advertising those new programs and new init iatives. But what has happened here, there is a cutback of close to $1 50,000, the students are working shorter durations of time for the government.

No matter how he fudges the figures, the fact of the matter is that this Mi nister has cut back the STEP Program and is justifying the cutback by saying those moneys are going to be used in other areas. Mr. Speaker, it's politics, it's cheap politics as the Member for Arthur put it, and I want to tell the Minister that in no way is he going to be able to use those figures and use those justifications to try and prop up this ailing government. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, the bookkeeping here is very complicated. There was an adjustment. it's a little more complicated. There is some money for 1049

Tuesday, 22 May, 1984 Student Exchange Programs and there are bookkeeping adjustments. But, essentially, the program is not cut back. The STEP Program, in terms of jobs in the Manitoba Government, is the same and the average payout per student is roughly the same. So there is no cutback and the member says that it's not the case. There has been a reduction in the STEP budget by $1 27,900.00. That is tied into some other aspects of the program including Quebec exchange students and so on. All I'm saying is in terms of jobs in the Manitoba Government is approximately the same, in fact, it's a few more.

The average payout is the same, roughly speaking. So the observations of the Member for La Verendrye are incorrect, with all due respect. MR. R. BANMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, here we have a classic example. Last year, they spent $2,377,000 on the STEP Program. This year, th ey're spe nding $2,249,000 - that's what the Minister told us. In my books, that represents a cutback of $1 25,000.00. Now if he's saying that's not really a cutback, we can understand why when he was in opposition, he really didn't un derstand what was happ ening. But, Mr.

Chairman, this government, this NDP Government, who was the champion of all these job creation programs when they were in opposition is here today, by his own figures, admitting they are cutting back the STEP Program by $1 28,000 to be exact. Let the record show, that is the type of action we get when we elect New Democrats. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, since the member's repeating, I think I can afford the luxury of repeating as well.

I said that there are various new initiatives allowing for more young people to be empl oyed than ever before, particularly in the private sector, and there will be more job opportunities created through this department than ever before. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)( 1) -p ass; 3.(b)(2) - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: We're still on 3.(b)(3), Employment Programs? MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm trying to call 3.(b)(2). 3.(b)(2)­ pass. 3.(b)(3) - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C.

OLESON: What we've been on is Employment Programs, Careerstart is one of them and I'm sure most of the members in the opposition have some questions on that aspect of employment. One of the ones I was wanting to ask is, what staff in this department are directly involved in administering the Careerstart Program? HON. L. EVANS: We don't have a staff delineated especially to carry out the Careerstart Program. They carry out various programs that the department has, so Careerstart happens to be one job that they deal with, primarily in the summer months.

In the winter months there are other programs that the y'v e admin istered. Last year, for example, the Manitoba Employment Action Program was one of them, for example. MRS. C. OLESON: Who were the forms sent to this year? Were they sent to people who had applied and were unsuccessful last year, or to everyone who had applied, or what was the criteria for sending out the forms? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, we sent them to all previous applicants, plus others who expressed an interest in getting an application form. MRS. C. OLESON: What was the wage assistance with this program and is there a wage differential?

Last year, I remember there was a wage differential between Native students and non-Native students. Was that the case this year also? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, it's not the case this year. We pay $4.00 an hour, which is the minimum wage, plus 10 percent for empl oyee benefits if we're dealing with a non-profit community organization. If we're dealing with a business, we pay $2.00 an hour plus 10 percent of the wage assistance for employee benefits such as CPP, UIC, etc. MRS. C. OLESON: Does this program employ only students or is it other unempl oyed youths as well? HON. L.

EVANS: lt includes other unemp loyed youths as well. MRS. C. OLESON: How many applications were received for Careerstart this year? HON. L. EVANS: We received 5,802 applications for 9,603 positions. MRS. C. OLESON: That was the number of situations they requested in their 5,802 applications. HON. L. EVANS: Yes. If we'd have approved every one, we would have needed in excess of $15 million. MRS. C. OLESON: How many did you approve and how many did you reject? HON. L. EVANS: We approved, in terms of applications, 4, 648 applications for 6,086 job s, for a total of $8,468,827 .00. MRS. C.

OLESON: And then you rejected how many applications? HON. L. EVANS: We rejected 1, 066 applications, involving 3,207 jobs. The rejects amounted to roughly $5. 1 million. MRS. C. OLESON: How many positions were approved last year? How many applications? Give us the same figures for last year as you gave me just now. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised, I don't have the exact numbers in front of me. 1050

Tuesday, 22 May, 1984 A MEMBER: Oh, yes you do. HON. L. EVANS: We ll, the numbers that were given to me, the table I just had was for this year. A MEMBER: Oh, yes he does. He's the Minister in charge of the Bureau of Statistics and he can't tell us? HON. L. EVANS: The numb er of positions filled last year was approximately the same, 6,082. MRS. C. OLESON: How many applications were filled and how many rejected last year? HON. L. EVANS: Last year the total expenditure was $7.3 million. MRS. C. OLESON: But how many applications did you approve last year and how many did you reject? HON. L.

EVANS: We haven't got the exact figure, but it was over 4,000 applications. MRS. C. OLESON: Which? Approved or rejected ? HON. L. EVANS: Approved. MRS. C. OLESON: Over 4,000? HON. L. EVANS: Ye s. MRS. C. OLESON: From what we hear this year, and I believe the Minister may have said this in the House, that apparently the practice is this year not to approve applications of people who received help last year. Can the Minister explain this policy? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, this is not exactly correct.

What we had to do, because we've been trying to spread this money out as evenly as possible - as you can see we've had more applications than we could possibly accommodate - we did use some criteria. If an emplo yer happened to get a large federal grant, a Summer Works Canada Grant, then we felt we should favour the employer who wasn't getting any federal assistance. For example, if an empl oyer had had some help in the past year and another emplo yer had had no help in the previous year, we'd be inclined to favour the one who had no money in past years.

What we had to do therefore in some cases. instead of let's say approving three, we might have approved two or one, in order to be as fair and equitable as possible and to spread it around as much as possible. MRS. C. OLESON: I'm sure the Minister must realize that this has caused a hardship for a great many places that have come to rely on this kind of help. For instance, in information booths, for tourist booths and this sort of thing.

But in my constituency I'm particularly perturbed about the Austin Agricultural Museum because that is one of the major tourist attractions in this province and they applied for help, for students for guide s, and their admin istrator wrote to me and he ind icated in the letter that he had also written to you about it.

He said, "The Careerstart Program did not give us any students and had not indicated if we will get any should additional funding become available." They have school tours that they book; they are open seven days a week. lt is absolutely essential in one way for the protection of that place to have guide s taking people around because they do have a problem.

If people go on their own to tour, they find themselv es that they're missing some of the valuable museum pieces that they have there and that alone, that one element in their need for students - I don't know whether the Minister is aware or not - but particularly in the days of their annual reunion as many as 700 people volunteer their services to run that, and it seems to me a shame to turn down a request of that nature particularly, because they probably in their budget included the fact that they would get help for tour guides this summer and other help through Careerstart.

They also applied to the Federal Government and they said that they had been under STEP, and they were referred this year to Careerstart, but they have been allocated two students for Summer Works through the Federal Government, but this just isn't enough to operate their facility and I am sure there are other cases like this which some of my colleagues will mention to you. The Mem ber for Roblin-Russell had brought me newspaper clippings where in his constituency there were two or th ree different cases.

For instance, in one of his towns, I believe it was Roblin - I stand to be corrected - last year they got 60 students under their Careerstart Program; this year they got 32. So the commun ities are sort of sitting up and taking notice and saying, what is going on here? We have been relying on this sort of help and, in turn, the students have been relying on it and they have been turned down. So I am wondering if the Minister could justify that sort of action. I can see perhaps there is some ration ale for businesses not getting it every year, maybe; but I can't see it for volunteer things of this nature.

Specifical ly, as I say, I am concerned about the Austin Museum because of its huge potential as a tourist attraction. HON. L. EVANS: Well, Mr. Chairman, as I ind icated before, the applications far outweighed the budget that we had for this program. We expect to spend some more money this year than we did last year. lt's a matter of being equitable and fair as much as possible and, as I ind icated, if an organization such as the Austin Mu seum would receive federal assistance, then that puts them in a lower category.

But I would agree with the member, it's an excellent facility, I have been there many a time, and there is no question about it being an interest ing tourist attraction as wel l. I can point out one very fundamental factor and that is, in th e past the City of Winnip eg, which the Metropolitan Winni peg area has 60 percent of the Manitoba population, and in the past years it was getting between 25 and 30 percent of the money. We have looked at the population distribution, we have looked at the unemployment rates througho ut the province, and we have tried to distribute moneys equitably on that basis.

I think that it's just not good enough to 1051

Tuesday, 22 May, 1984 spend 27 percent of a Provincial Government program in a city that has 60 percent of the population. So therefore, I believe that there is justification for an increase in the Winnip eg expenditure. it's a difficult decision to make. If we had double the amount of money, we wouldn't have to say no to anybody and we would have accommodated everybody in Manitoba, but we don't have that amount of money available to us. So that is a problem. There has been more money spent in Winnipeg, not anywhere nearly 60 percent, but there has been an increase over last year.

But again I say it's a matter of being fair and equitable in trying to distribute the money as fairly as possible and it's just am impossi bility to maintain the same level of support as some people got last year. In fact, we couldn't do it and accommodate everybody unless we double the budget and I didn't have that kind of money. MRS. C. OLESON: Could the Mi nister tell me how many jobs in last year's program led to permanent jobs? Have you any statistics of that nature? HON. L. EVAN S: No, I don't have that kind of information. Mr.

Chairman, that information is difficult to obtain. it's essentially a summer program. A great percentage of them are students; a great percentage are going back to school. Many of them don't look upon it as sort of permanent, but if the employers see fit to carry lt on, that's great. The other programs that we have such as MEAP, Manitoba Employment Action Program, and also under the NEED Program -particularly under MEAP, I guess -th ere was a fair percentage who carr ied on in permanent employment and that is very desirable, of course. MRS. C. OLESON: Is there an evaluation process for the Careerstart Program?

Do you have someone, for instance, go to some of these work sites and evaluate the type of jobs being done? Is there anything of that nature that goes on with it? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, there is a form of spot checking that goes on, but we don't have the staff. Given the amount of persons involved, the numb er of employers, thousands of employers, we couldn't do an on-the-spot check with everybody without having a lot more civil servants, but we do a spot check and there is other follow-up by mail and asking of questions, surveys, etc. MRS. C.

OLESON: So your main information as to whether or not it's a worthwhile program that's being financed is through the application form and through any follow-up forms. Really, that would be the main way that you would be able to tell if it was a worthwhile program. HON. L. EVANS: I should point out that the decisions to approve the application are made in the field, and we assume that the staff in the area is familiar with the organizations or the employers and can verify, and should verify, the worthwhileness of the application. MRS. C.

OLESON: Could the Mini ster give us an indi cation of the cost of advertising the Careerstart Program this year? HON. L. EVANS: We don't have the breakdown of that figure. lt was tied into some other Jobs Fund advertising. MRS. C. OLESON: That was going to be my next qu estion. lt wasn't advert ised, then, strictly as Careerstart; it was advertised through the Jobs Fund, am I correct? HON. L. EVANS: lt was advertised under the um brella of the Manitoba Jobs Fund. MRS. C.

OLESON: So the advertising wouldn't be sent out, or rat her, be charged un der this Mini ster's department, it would be charged under the Mi nister in charge of the Jobs Fund? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, I'm advised that it's partly charged to this department and partly to the Jobs Fund. MRS. C. OLESON: But you can't indi cate how much to this department? HON. L. EVANS: I haven't got a figure here, I don't think the staff have a figure available. MRS. C. OLESON: I know it seems to me from reading last year's Estimat