Alberta Hansard — 16 May 1977, Afternoon sitting (14:30) (Legislature 18, Session 3)

19770516

Alberta — Debates (Hansard)

May 16, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 1337 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Monday, May 16, 1977 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 242

An Act Respecting the Withholding or Withdrawal of Treatment Where Death Is Inevitable DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I wish to introduce Bill 242, being

An Act Respecting the Withholding or With drawal of Treatment Where Death Is Inevitable. The purpose of this bill is to provide a means whereby an individual may limit the effect of a general or implied consent to medical treatment to prevent the use of life-sustaining procedures while in a terminal condition. [Leave granted; Bill 242 read a first time] head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the response to Question No. 108. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MR. LEITCH: Mr.

Speaker, I have the very real pleas ure today of introducing to you, and to the members of the Assembly, 40 grade 9 students from St. Bona- venture school in the Calgary Egmont constituency. They are accompanied by their teacher Mr. Dave Beatty and are in the members gallery. I would ask them to rise and receive the welcome of the Assembly. MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, I have a great deal of pleasure today to introduce through you to the As sembly a grade 4 class from the Capilano school, 35 students and one teacher. They're seated in the pub lic gallery.

I'd ask that they stand and receive the applause of the House. MR. STROMBERG: Mr. Speaker, it's a privilege for me to introduce to the members of this Assembly some 30 students from my constituency, from that great town of Forestburg which, by the way, the Premier's wife also grew up in and attended. They are attended by their teacher Mrs. Art Bunney. I believe Mrs. Bunney has been bringing her students here for the last 20 years. Mrs. Bunney had an interesting experience this morning. They had no school bus driver, so she drove the students here. They are in the public gallery.

I would ask them to rise and be welcomed by this Assembly. DR. McCRIMMON: Mr. Speaker, it's a privilege for me today to introduce to you, and through you to the members of the Assembly, an outstanding citizen from my constituency: Mr. Halvar Jonson, the presi dent of The Alberta Teachers' Association. He is sit ting in the members gallery. I'd ask that he stand and receive the welcome of the House. head: MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Office of the Premier MR. LOUGHEED: Mr.

Speaker, a report of historical significance to western Canada, and to Alberta in particular, was one hour ago released in the city of Saskatoon, being the report of the Grain Handling and Transportation Commission, otherwise known as the Hall commission report. Mr. Speaker, the report is of a nature to have profound and positive impact for Albertans now and in the future. In its implications, it is in fact a much more significant report for Albertans than the Berger report released last week on northern pipelines. The western premiers and ministers of transporta tion were fortunate to have a prebriefing by Mr.

Justice Emmett Hall in Brandon on May 6. I've had an opportunity to peruse the document, which I will be filing today, and will in due course provide all 75 members of the Legislature Assembly with copies of it. I haven't had an opportunity to thoroughly assess it, but certainly to peruse it. Overall, the recommendations of the Hall commis sion are very positive for the province of Alberta and its future. Frankly, I'm excited about it.

Naturally there are a few of the recommendations about which the provincial government has reservations, but the vast majority of the recommendations are supportive of the Alberta submissions and, if implemented, will strengthen the agriculture industry, economic diversi fication, and reduce transportation obstacles for this province. It confirms many of the positions taken by this government relative to transportation at the Western Economic Opportunities Conference and since. Mr.

Speaker, we were delighted to see that the commission accepted Alberta's proposal, which was described as imaginative, for operating the major rail lines northwest of Edmonton under one operating authority. This recommendation will have immense value in facilitating northern Alberta's development of agriculture and other resources. The commission recommends the establishment of a northern devel opment railway department of the CNR. It would encompass the present Northern Alberta Railway, the Great Slave Lake Railway, and the Alberta Resources Railway together with other portions of the Canadian National Railway.

In fact, it would require the Cana dian Pacific Railway to sell its interest in the Northern Alberta Railway. It requires the establishment of an open interexchange point at both Edmonton and Dawson Creek. It visualizes construction in the future of a rail line from Fort St. John northeast, connecting the British Columbia Railway to this new system, with a junction at the Manning subdivision of

1338 ALBERTA HANSARD May 16, 1977 the Great Slave Lake Railway. It involves construc tion of a rail line to Valleyview. The recommendations of the commission for ra tionalization of the rail network will allow upgrading of remaining lines to occur immediately and to be planned with certainty. The farsighted proposal of the prairie rail authority for management of light density branch lines deserves support by the western provinces. Alberta would suggest that the prairie rail authority envisioned by the Hall commission should have provincial directors. Mr.

Speaker, we are also pleased to see the commission accept Alberta's recommendation that abandoned rail line rights of way be vested in the provincial government. The commission recognized the important principles of compensation which we put forth when it recommended federal assistance to the provinces and municipalities — that the higher incremental road costs we will face as a result of any branch line abandonments.

Further, the commission recommended that an amount equal to five years taxes on lines recommended for abandonment be made available to the provinces from the federal government for distribution to the municipalities. We support the commission's view that further hearings by the Canadian Transport Commission are unnecessary for lines recommended for abandon ment by Mr. Justice Hall. On balance, on the impor tant question of rail line abandonment, the recom mendations are generally satisfactory to Alberta, tak ing into consideration all the diverse factors involved.

Its recommendations regarding rail-car utilization, allocation, and producer-car program, all should im prove rail transportation for western Canada, particu larly with regard to grain traffic. The commission made many recommendations to improve grain throughput at Canadian ports which are important to this province. For example, Alberta was pleased to see recommendations for more con struction and additional utilization of Prince Rupert. The commission recommended that rates to Churchill be established from CP Rail points and that CP Rail be required to interchange its cars and hence serve Churchill.

For Vancouver the commission recom mended a Westac task force to co-ordinate rail opera tions, and a stronger role for a grain-car co-ordinator appointed by the Canadian Wheat Board. The commission noted that grain presently stopping off for storage or milling in western Canada has been subject to a stop-off charge. It noted this stop-off charge inhibited full utilization of interior government terminals, inland cleaning, and secondary agricultural processing on the prairies.

The commission recom mended that this charge be eliminated immediately and that the railway costs associated with stop-off be a part of the total costs of moving grain on the basic rail network. With regard to the question of user pay, which has been the basic philosophy with regard to freight rates in this country, at page 52 of its report the commis sion noted that historically, the railways facing competition on only some commodities and in some regions were forced to make the most of their rate increases in the remaining commodities in the remaining regions.

It went on to say, unfortunately, the Prairies and the Maritimes not only missed out on the benefits of competition, but in fact, were penalized because of it. This underlines the basic position presented by the Alberta government at the Western Economic Oppor tunities Conference, that the user-pay principle pres ently incorporated in the National Transportation Act has been detrimental to western Canada and Alberta in particular. Mr. Speaker, the commission's recommendations are extremely important for diversification of Alber ta's economy in terms of agricultural processing. In its

section relative to the production and processing of agriculture products, it notes it should take place in the regions of this country which have a natural geographic advantage for such activities, and specifi cally in the prairie region of Canada. It states that transportation policies should not detract from this position, but should recognize its importance in the national interest. It gives some very important rec ommendations to strengthen the flour milling indus try, the rapeseed crushing industry, the livestock pro cessing industry, and the malting industry in western Canada. Mr.

Speaker, I have no doubt that the commission's report will be vigorously resisted by the railways and may even be subject to attempts by certain bureau crats in Ottawa to bury, so to speak, the commission report. I would like to assure you, Mr. Speaker, and members of this Legislative Assembly, that the gov ernment of Alberta does not propose to allow the federal government to shelve or ignore this important document. Mr.

Speaker, in his speech in Winnipeg on April 18 the Prime Minister noted the importance of the West ern Economic Opportunities Conference, and particu larly transportation and agriculture in a diversified west. He admitted there is much more work to be done. He said he was looking for specific responses and initiatives from western Canada. Well, Mr. Speaker, he has one. It involves this government's endorsation of the majority of the recommendations and the basic thrust of the report of the Grain Han dling and Transportation Commission, released today in Saskatoon.

We trust that the Prime Minister and his government will respond positively to the recom mendations made by an eminent Canadian and an outstanding commission. Mr. Speaker, in closing let me say that in many ways this is a day of triumph for the Deputy Premier and Minister of Transportation of this province. It is unfortunate he is not in the Legislature this after noon, but is completing a fact-finding tour in Europe, emphasizing urban transportation technology. There fore, Mr. Speaker, for the record — and I'm sure you will permit this word in this statement — I would like to congratulate Dr.

Horner, those within the Depart ment of Transportation, and other provincial depart ments who worked with him for the outstanding con tribution and submissions they made to the Hall commission on behalf of the citizens of Alberta. In all, the Department of Transportation, on behalf of the government of Alberta and the citizens of this prov ince, prepared and presented five separate submis sions to the Hall commission. Of those five, Dr.

Horner personally participated in the presentation of three, an indication of his devotion to the citizens of Alberta and of the further growth of transportation facilities that will assist the government in reaching its goal of economic diversification. A word, too, for

May 16, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 1339 the Member for Calgary Currie, who started all of this four years ago at WEOC. Mr. Speaker, this Hall commission report can be a milestone for each member of this Legislative As sembly, wherever he sits. Let us now press on to assure that its basic thrust is not thwarted, but in fact implemented. MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, in responding to the minis terial statement by the Premier — without having read the report or had an opportunity to look at it — let me on this side of the House say that we commend the report, especially with its emphasis on the area of agricultural recommendations. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, from the comments made by the Premier it appears that this report will lend a great deal of credence [to] the [representations] made by western Canada to the federal government for a large number of years about the transportation diffi culties that western Canada, especially Alberta, labors under. Thirdly, Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest to all mem bers of the Assembly that we make the report pre scribed reading during the recess. In the fall session hopefully we'd spend one or perhaps two days, or more if need be, looking at this report in considerable detail. That, it seems to me, would add pressure on the federal government not to let the report get on the shelves and gather dust. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Native Land Claims MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct the first question to the Attorney General and ask if it's the intention of the government to compensate the seven Indian chiefs and headmen for the legal costs incurred in filing the caveats which, under Bill 29, would be ruled outside their jurisdiction. MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, in some instances the government has worked out arrangements to pay the legal expenses of certain native groups in the advan cement of certain claims. To my knowledge, those arrangements have been worked out in advance of any proceedings being taken. In the case in question, such was not the case. Mr.

Speaker, I think it would be inappropriate for me to make any response at all to the specific ques tion, because the matter is before the court and the effect of Bill 29 when proclaimed may continue to be before the court, that is up to the court to determine. I would not want to be in a position of indicating a response on the matter of payment of costs, because I think it would be improper. MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, then without falling into the field of impropriety: given the fact that with this legislation before the House, sizeable costs will cer tainly be involved, can the Attorney General indicate to the House whether the government has decided not even to consider the possibility of any compensation? MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, for the government to determine we would not make compensation sug gests that we have been invited to do so. I would not not want to leave that simply hanging out there.

I would suggest if the hon. member wishes to inform himself by consulting with the solicitors for the indi viduals in question, that he do so. But I would not want to leave any impression in this House or with the news media that the native people have or have not approached the government on the issue. The matter is before the court. As I said before, other matters where we have agreed to pay such costs have been agreed to in advance. However, such is not the case in this particular matter. Hall Commission Report DR. BACKUS: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier with regard to the Hall report.

How will the ARR fit into this northwest rail network recommendation? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, from the cursory read ing of the report, as I understand it, the Alberta Resources Railway in essence will become a part of this separate division or department of the CNR. In short, the implications of the report are that the ARR in terms of its ownership and its operations, its total function, would flow into a CNR network.

That of course envisions, as I would see it, pretty extensive negotiations because it brings in the Great Slave Lake Railway, the NAR, and the ARR, and so have some very important major implications, particularly with reference to the city and constituency of Grande Prai rie. But obviously there will be a degree of negotia tion, assuming we can get the federal government to support that recommendation. DR. BACKUS: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker, for clari fication.

Although the Premier talked about connec tions between the British Columbia Railway and this network, would it be advantageous for Alberta and British Columbia to get together and bring the total British Columbia Railway in with this network? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, it's a very important point for us to consider by way of follow-up. At the meeting in Brandon the Minister of Transportation for Alberta and the Minister of Transportation for British Columbia set a date — I'm not sure what that date is — to review the matter as to where there can be a higher degree of co-ordination in the area.

I presume the hon. member is referring to the exist ing system. I did mention that in addition there is the proposed rail transportation line going from Fort St. John to Manning in due course, which would be a very expensive proposition but would have a tremen dous impact for northern Alberta. MR. HYLAND: Mr. Speaker, my question is also to the Premier on the Hall commission report. After his ini tial reading of the report, would the Premier say that the report would have an effect on the increase of income to the farmers of Alberta and, if so, how? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr.

Speaker, that's a very complex subject, and I can only deal with it in a cursory way. I might respond to the Leader of the Opposition's suggestion that the matter would need appropriate debate in the fall session. We would put a resolution

1340 ALBERTA HANSARD May 16, 1977 on the Order Paper to that effect. The number of the aspects of the report in terms of the way it refers to the various charges, such as the stop-off charge and others, all in my view will flow back to improve a net position to the producer. Any thing that cuts down on the delays in the system — and there's quite a thrust in the report in that regard — would, I think, be helpful. Perhaps the Minister of Agriculture may want to respond further, but that is the basic thrust — to improve the transportation system. MR.

SPEAKER: There's no question of the extreme importance of the report. But I would suggest, with great respect to hon. members, that questions during the question period which seek to obtain opinions about the recommendations in the report would not conform to our ordinary practices and rules, and that questions which seek to get at the contents of the report should perhaps be postponed until after all hon. members have had a chance to read it, inas much as the hon. Premier has said that it will shortly be made available. The hon. Member for Highwood, followed by the hon. Member for St. Paul. MR.

WOLSTENHOLME: Mr. Speaker, I think my ques tion would come under the parameters you just men tioned, so I'll wait a while. MR. FLUKER: Mr. Speaker, my question would go under the same parameters, so I'll wait. Provincial Museum Films MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Government Services and Culture. Since many parents take their boys and girls to the Provin cial Museum for the films, and since the four films advertised for May are all adult or adult restricted, my question is: who chooses these films, and why aren't more family films shown? MR. SCHMID: Mr.

Speaker, the great majority of these films are family films. But usually in a series some may be adult or even restricted adult. I will look into the situation, but I can assure the hon. member that most of the time — I would say 80 per cent of the time — family fare is being shown at the Museum. Hall Commission Report (continued) MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this ques tion to the hon. Premier. I hope I can keep it within the strictures you've outlined with respect to the Hall commission recommendations tabled today.

While my question relates to that, it flows back to the user-pay discussion at the prairie premiers' confer ence. Is it the position of the government of Alberta that the user-pay concept should be modified, elimi nated, or completely changed? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I think the basic posi tion we have is that user pay, as an overriding posi tion for policy in this country, is not appropriate. In our view, there are certainly areas of modification. I think the hon. Minister of Transportation has dealt with this in a number of cases.

We of course have the question of the Crowsnest Pass rates and the need for preservation of the benefit that arises from them. There is considerable scope for open debate in that particular area. But I think that generally what we look at is the view — as the Hall commission report refers to it, and as we argued at WEOC — that user pay really is detrimental to western Canada in the aggregate sense. We would like to see it with drawn as a basic policy thrust, although there may be appropriate areas of rate establishment that do reflect a competitive factor. MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. Premier. In light of the modification of the user-pay principle enunciated by the Deputy Premier in debate several months ago with respect to the specific suggestion of the government of Alberta that the federal government acquire ownership of the roa dbeds, where does that now stand in light of the Hall commission report? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, when the western premiers met with Mr. Justice Hall a year ago in Medicine Hat, he was already well launched on his commission study.

We asked him to look into the question of the approach the four western govern ments made at WEOC, that the roadbed could become an ownership of the federal government and that from that point on, with public ownership of the roadbed, the operation of the railways would occur in terms of the variable costs. The issue was dealt with in the Hall commission report.

But I think he con cluded quite fairly that it was such a vast undertaking to assess it — and it was truly not a western point of view; it's really a national question — that he sug gested it should be referred for further consideration by some national body. I think one of the follow-ups we have in the Legisla ture and in the government is to continue to press this matter forward. Perhaps it's conceivable to have another commissioner appointed nationally who can respond to that issue.

I think we have strong endor- sation on this matter from the government of Manito ba and, I believe, support for it by the governments of Saskatchewan and British Columbia. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. Premier. Is it the intention of the Premier to formally place this question on the agenda for the next premiers' conference — all 10 premiers? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, we considered that and have made some tentative plans to have a further discussion of western premiers informally before the meeting in New Brunswick.

It did occur to us that a preliminary discussion on the very issue we're now discussing, that is the public ownership of the rail road beds, might be useful for discussion at the premiers' conference in New Brunswick this summer. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to either the hon. Premier or the hon. Minister of Agriculture. In light of the prairie pre miers' conference and the report of the Hall commis sion today, does the government of Alberta see any opportunity to extend the Crow rates to other commodities?

May 16, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 1341 MR. MOORE: Well, Mr. Speaker, if the recommenda tions of Mr. Justice Hall were put into place, indeed there are some areas where the Crow rate would be extended, most notably in rapeseed crushing, perhaps in livestock feeding and processing. Additionally, I think it's important to recognize the benefits that Mr. Justice Hall's recommendation on stopover charges would bring to the agricultural pro cessing industry. As hon. members would probably be aware, Mr.

Speaker, stopover charges are present ly charged against grain which is upgraded or pro cessed in Alberta before it moves on to a port. The recommendations contained in the report would do away with those charges. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I have one final supple mentary question. It is awfully close to a legal ques tion, but I'll see if I can try to sneak it by because it is of importance to people in northwestern Alberta. That's the question of the new northern rail authority under the control of the CNR which would necessit ate the CNR purchasing the ARR. My question, Mr.

Speaker, to the Premier is not to obtain a legal [answer] on who would do the selling and the power of the federal Parliament over the CNR in fact to buy the ARR, but what specific moves will be made now to open discussions to facilitate the legal problems that are obviously going to exist? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Trans portation and I discussed that matter and we felt that one of the most important matters we can raise is by making a direct communication very quickly to the Canadian National Railway and to the Canadian Pacif ic Railway, saying that we would encourage the implementation of this and, with regard to the specif ic question asked by the hon. Member for Spirit River- Fairview, therefore initiate, if you could put it this way, the commencement of negotiations with regard to the ARR in a way that would follow the recom mendations in the report.

So step one on our part would be communication to the Canadian National Railway endorsing the particular position, anticipating of course some considerable resistance. MR. MILLER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I would ask what other plans the government has to over come the obvious resistance of both the CN and the CP railways. MR. LOUGHEED: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think step one — and this is just a quick reaction off the top of my head — would be to write to the Prime Minister tomorrow with a copy of this document enclosed, refer to the Winnipeg speech of April 18 and say, the ball's in your court.

Benzene — Carcinogenic Effects DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address my question to the hon. Minister of Labour. This relates to the industrial health and safety division and is a follow-up to a question I asked about the carcinogenic action of benzene and its derivatives. Is the minister in a position to indicate that? MR. CRAWFORD: The answer is yes, Mr. Speaker. I have for the hon. member an overview of what is presently being done in that regard in Alberta. I just can't find it at the moment; I'll try to find it before the end of the question period. Hall Commission Report (continued) MR.

WOLSTENHOLME: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Premier. I'm quite concerned about agri business loans, particularly where they concern agri cultural processing. Would the Hall commission report have any bearing on the holding . . . MR. SPEAKER: With great respect to the hon. mem ber, this is an outright request for an opinion, which perhaps might be sought in another way. Consultants' Contracts MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Provincial Treasurer.

Has the Provincial Treasurer had the opportunity of reviewing the agreement be tween Rune Associates and the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care, specifically with regard to the advance payment clause? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, as members of the Assem bly would know, it's the Auditor's function under his preaudit responsibilities to form an opinion on whether payments ought to be made. That would include payments made under the contract to which the question refers.

To this date, there has been no communication that I've been able to ascertain between the Auditor's of fice and Treasury in respect of that matter. I have not had the opportunity to discuss it with the Auditor, as he has recently been in the hospital, and perhaps still is. So I've been unable to personally review it with him. But I would again point out that before the cheque is issued, the responsibility for making the decision on whether payments comply with The Financial Administration Act is the Auditor's. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister.

Would the minister be able to review it with the Deputy Provincial Auditor? Also, would the minister indicate whether he has reviewed the various contracts made by government in the various departments? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure what the hon. member's question is leading to. There is no practice by Treasury of reviewing contracts calling for pay ments. As I say, the preaudit function is currently with the Auditor and not with Treasury. We in Treas ury would not receive these contracts as a matter of course, form opinions on them, or any of the things the hon. member's questions relate to. MR. R.

SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, supplementary to the minister. Could the minister indicate whether policy guidelines are used in forming consulting contracts in government? Has the government some type of poli cy format that may be used by each and every minister?

1342 ALBERTA HANSARD May 16, 1977 MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I think the member would have to be more specific in his question: policy guide lines in what areas? Of course, whether they're hired is provided for in the budgetary process. So I'm just at a loss, Mr. Speaker, to know exactly what the hon. member has in mind. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, to be a little more specific to the Provincial Treasurer. Two principles are involved in the contract I've been asking ques tions about. One is payment for service prior to the service being provided.

Number two, the contract has in it a mutual consent clause which, in effect, estab lishes that the individual or company hired cannot be fired unless they agree to be fired. I wanted to know if those two principles were embodied in contracts established between ministers of the Crown and per sons or consultants hired. MR. LEITCH: Well, Mr. Speaker, on the first question I repeat that the policy regarding payment is set out in The Financial Administration Act. The Provincial Auditor, under his preaudit responsibilities under that act, makes the decision as to whether the cheque is properly issued.

That's what he does prior to the issuing of the cheque. As I indicated earlier, there was no communication from the Auditor's office to either Treasury or my colleague the Minister of Hospi tals and Medical Care relating to that matter. Mr. Speaker, on the second point, the hon. member is putting an

interpretation on the contract which I'm simply not in a position to comment on. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister. Is the minister advising that I go directly to the Auditor or assistant auditor for my own inter pretation? Is that the conclusion? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member can seek an

interpretation of the contract or the legislation from any source he chooses. Hall Commission Report (continued) MR. STROMBERG: Mr. Speaker, in light of your earli er ruling this afternoon, I'm still going to try to get an important question past you and ask the Premier, in light of the Arctic Gas proposal probably being post poned for the next 10 years, does the Hall report make any mention of the feasibility of an arctic railroad? MR.

SPEAKER: With great respect to the hon. mem ber, if we're going to have questions to get out the contents of the Hall report during the question period before members have had a chance to read it, I suppose we might need several question periods. It certainly wouldn't come within the ordinary rules with regard to the question period relating to docu ments which are publicly available, and I would say in this case, about to be publicly available. Dinosaur Remains MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Culture. A very short explanation is necessary.

About 95 million years ago, a dinosaur wandered from the Drumheller area into the Red Deer area. Last year Dome Petroleum ordered a survey along the 194-mile route of their proposed pipeline to ascertain if any dinosaur skeletons could be excavated before the bulldozers took over. My question is: has the hon. minister any information on the finds? MR. SCHMID: Yes, Mr. Speaker. There is in fact information on the finds.

Thanks to the excellent co-operation of a very responsible corporate citizen, I think we have been able even to divert some of the pipeline in order not to disturb certain discoveries of archaeological value. I would submit the report to the hon. member, because it's quite extensive, but I appreciate his interest. MR. TAYLOR: A supplementary to the hon. minister. Will the skeletons be the property of Dome Petroleum or the government of Alberta? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Speaker, it may be of interest to all members that any archaeological discovery is the property of the people of Alberta. MR.

TAYLOR: A further supplementary. Will Alberta museums have any claim on these skeletons? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Speaker, I would think that publicly-owned museums in the province of Alberta could certainly approach us to obtain, probably, the exhibit of specimens that have been found or are to be found in the province. MR. TAYLOR: One further supplementary. With reference to the large skeleton that was found, they found the entire body without the head. With all respect to the hon. Attorney General, I can under stand that.

Any dinosaur leaving Drumheller for Red Deer must have a very weak head; that's with re spect. [laughter] My question is: if the head of this dinosaur is not found, will you still be mounting the dinosaur? MR. SCHMID: Mr. Speaker, of course in all our lives we leave certain things to the imagination of individ ual persons to make it more interesting. In this case we leave the head to the imagination of the individual trying to design and decipher the head, its beauty or ugliness as they may see fit. MR. KIDD: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The ques tions today are 'Taylor-made' for this particular ques tion.

During those excavations were any bones of ancient politicians discovered and identified as such? [laughter] Curriculum Policies Board MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Educa tion. On February 28 the Minister of Education indi cated that he would be pleased to share recommen dations of the Curriculum Policies Board with mem bers of this Legislature. When and how will we get the recommendations of the Curriculum Policies Board?

May 16, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 1343 MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, during the course of my remarks later on this afternoon, I expect to indicate that my expectations are for recommendations from the Curriculum Policies Board sometime prior to the end of June this year. Once those recommendations are available, I would hope to share them with members of this Assembly in the method most expe ditious at that time. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. From the minister's answer are we to assume the board has yet made no recommendations to the minister? MR.

KOZIAK: I have not yet received recommenda tions from the Curriculum Policies Board in this very important area. When I mentioned earlier in my response that the method of distribution would be as expeditious as possible, it would have regard to such factors as to whether or not we are still in session on June 30. MR. CLARK: We may be. A supplementary to the minister, Mr. Speaker. Is the board currently discussing goals and objectives of education or is it looking at specific curricular decisions? MR.

KOZIAK: The board is doing both, but at the moment its primary attentions are focused on goals and objectives and priorities for those goals and objectives. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, in light of the minister's answer that the board is doing both, how often does the board meet? MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, the practice has been for the board to meet approximately once a month for two or three days. ORDERS OF THE DAY head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS 2. Moved by Mr. Koziak:

Be it resolved that this Legislature assess the goals and objectives for elementary and secondary education, and consider the priorities to be attributed to those goals and objectives. MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, the questions of the hon. Leader of the Opposition were an excellent overture to the remarks I intend to make.

First of all, to refresh hon. member's minds I would like to refer them to the Speech from the Throne and in particular the first priority of this government which appears on page 2 of that speech, wherein it stated that one of the five specific priorities will be: to reassess the goals and objectives of our basic education system and to consider the desirability of providing greater emphasis on the acquisition of knowledge and skills; Mr. Speaker, I consider it a privilege to begin the formal consideration by this Legislature of the goals of basic education, as provided for in this resolution in this motion.

Many members have addressed the mselves to related issues in the past. However, to my mind the priority attention presently being given by this Legislature is unique in Canada.

In providing the introduction, I wish to cover four specific areas: first, the need for a statement of goals; secondly, changes which affected priorities among previous statements of goals and the ways in which these were to be achieved; thirdly, the history and influences leading to the interim statement which is now before us; fourthly, important issues facing members of this Legislature as they perform the very significant function of establishing goals for basic education. The first area, Mr. Speaker, is the need for a statement.

When we consider the confusion and uncertainty being expressed about schools by some Albertans today, there is no doubt that a clear state ment is necessary of what students must learn in school. We need a statement that leaves no doubt about priorities among the things we would want schools to accomplish. We need a statement that gives clear directions to the educators so that pro grams and courses reflect what we expect from schools.

Finally, we need a clear statement so that students know if they are successful in school activi ties, and so that parents will expect neither too much nor too little from our schools. In pointing out the need for such a statement, Mr. Speaker, I should indicate that such a statement is not needed if we are merely to reflect adversely upon our present school system.

Members of this Assem bly, including members of the opposition, during the course of study of the estimates of the Department of Education came to the defence of what I think is an excellent education system, one that is regarded as such by the public and educators around the world, as pointed out by the review of a year ago of the committee under the organization of economic and co-operation and development. Nor should we be approaching this debate, or the need for a statement of goals and objectives, from our perceptions of student achievement in our schools today.

There is a great deal of controversy over this particular area. I dealt with this to some degree during the course of my contribution during the throne speech debate, when I outlined the establish ment, composition, and work and programs of the minister's advisory committee on student achievement. When I say, Mr. Speaker, that we shouldn't enter this debate on the basis of our perceptions alone, I think it would probably be interesting for us, while we are looking at education and at the students in that system, to sit back and hear what the students in that system sometimes write and say about the politicians.

Recently a good friend of mine supplied me with a delightful little book which has quotations from the writings of some elementary school children. There are a few salient points I would like to share with hon. members. The book is entitled Vote For Love. Before I go into this, it's graphically illustrated. Hon. members of course recall that X is the way people mark their ballots. It may also mean a kiss, at the bottom of a letter or wherever it appears. So we have the two meanings for the letter X. This students writes: "When you vote you put a . . . kiss next to the

1344 ALBERTA HANSARD May 16, 1977 man you like best." Another that should be of interest to hon. mem bers: Elena, age 9, writes: "Politicians wave a lot when they tell you bad news." Then Jill, age 7, writes: "I think when you vote you have to do it in private. Its like swearing".

Karena, also age 7, says this about voting: "To get a vote you have to kiss old women and babies and that spreads disease." But my favorite is by John, age 8, who writes: "When you grow up and get a job, the politicians make you pay for their taxis." So sometimes the younger students have percep tions about us that are not necessarily correct. At the same time, we may have perceptions about students and their achievements which are not necessarily correct.

I just outline this so that we do not enter this debate or presume that a statement of goals is needed to solve certain problems of student achieve ment, which is a separate issue to which the Minis ter's Advisory Committee on Student Achievement is now addressing its attentions, energies, and resources. The second area that I'd like to address my remarks to this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, is the changes in goals and instruction that have taken place over the last number of years. The history of expectations for schooling in Alberta has been documented by various researchers. One major study by Dr.

Hodgson, pro fessor of the University of Alberta Faculty of Educa tion, suggests that there has been little change in expectations in Alberta. Emphases among expecta tions have changed. Minor changes by adding or taking away topics have occurred. Teaching strate gies have varied. But the basic purposes of instilling knowledge, skills, and attitudes have remained rela tively constant. Since the days of the Northwest Territories, the three R's — body of knowledge, physical health, fine arts, good character, social development, and citizen ship — have been major concerns.

Beginning as minor concerns, but becoming major, are reasoning power and clear thinking, religious development, vocational preparation, preparation for leisure, mental health, and family life. All of these are in some way reflected in this current statement. Between World War I and 1935, the goals reflected basic skills at the elementary level and preparation for university at the secondary level. The emphasis was on rote memory of facts and on drill for skills. All problems had the right solution if you followed the proper steps.

In the period from 1935 to 1955, the means by which the goals were to be achieved were influenced by progressive education. The teaching strategies changed to a stress on learning by doing, in addition to learning by reading and talking about. Topics from various subjects were grouped together in enterprise units. For example, a country might be studied by learning about the music, culture, language, industry, life styles of the country, as well as its geography and history.

Students — and probably some members of this Assembly will recall this — made salt and flour maps of countries, built models of homes, and sang the songs of the country. At the close of this period the technical training for war service and the success of veterans in post-war study occurred. The success of these latter programs pointed out that academic schooling was not the only predictor of adult success. Sputnik, in 1957, caused a third shift in how goals were to be achieved. Modern math was developed for the space age and the computer. The emphasis was on understanding the subject.

Knowledge, skills, and attitudes important to the mathematician were then used. The big ideas in mathematics were as important as the specific facts; understanding the skill was as important as using it. The symbols and technical language used by mathematicians were taught to students at an early age. Inquiry, the pri mary tool of the scientist, became an important way of learning all subjects. The learning of second lan guages also became important.

Another important world event, the Korean war and its challenges of brainwashing, caused educators to review the teaching approaches to values and to social studies. Nationally, the concern for developing an industrial economy resulted in the development of vocational and industrial composite high schools. Today we have 171 vocational courses in our high schools in Alberta. Although the goals have continued to stress knowl edge, skills, and attitudes, there have been significant changes in the way those goals are to be met, and minor changes in priorities among the goals.

The skills of acquiring knowledge and the feelings about knowledge have become as important as knowledge itself. While the above changes in schooling were taking place, our provincial society was also changing. A territory became a province; frontier life was replaced by an industrial society. The population, once mainly rural, became primarily urban. Laborers had their place taken by skilled industrial workers and professionals. Mr. Speaker, this short review demonstrates the social, economic, and political influences upon schooling of successive periods.

The economic con cern for productivity and the social concern for authority are continuing influences which must be considered in the current debate. Mr. Speaker, the third area to which I would like to address my remarks this afternoon is the history of, and the influences leading to, the current statement on Goals of Basic Education, which I'm sure all members have in their possession. I won't dwell on the history to a great degree because I think the hon. Member for Athabasca did an admirable job during the introduction of his resolution in this Assembly last year.

To refresh the memories of hon. members, however, a few points would be in order. This interim statement of the goals of education for Alberta was conceived in 1962. A succession of committees has made contributions to the statement. A major conference in 1969 provided lay and profes sional input. A commission on educational planning provided further alternatives, and a committee start ing in 1973 provided the interim draft. The statement received the curriculum committee's approval in 1974, and distribution in 1975.

Advice as to the adequacy of the statement has been requested from the Curriculum Policies Board. Mr. Speaker, I believe it would be to our advantage to have before us the trends which characterized the period in which the present statement of goals was developed. These are technological changes, popula

May 16, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 1345 tion patterns, social changes, and knowledge explo sion. First, technological change provided increased automation and promised more leisure time. I'm sure members of this Assembly are still waiting for the fulfilment of that particular promise. AN HON. MEMBER: Who isn't? MR. KOZIAK: Initial emphasis upon leisure-time skills became balanced with a concern for increased produ ctivity. People of all ages and at most ability levels began to request both emphases in education. Con cerns about the condition of the environment increased as well.

Secondly, population patterns: as we're aware, population grew and concentrated in urban areas throughout the province and Canada. Increased stress in urban areas raised the need for greater social understanding. The loss of population in rural areas resulted in special needs both in finances and in programs. There was increased mobility within Canada and indeed around the world. The terms for residence were short; in some cases less than a school year. The third trend, social changes — very important. In this trend we see the changing concept of social organization.

Recent statistics indicate a breakdown of family and community, and may even suggest a changing morality. The explosion of knowledge — of great significance to education. This placed a significant emphasis on what knowledge was of most importance. The big ideas and how to use them were stressed. Knowing where and how to find information was to help students handle the overload of new knowledge. Mr. Speaker, it is my perception that these influences must continue to receive attention in the current debate. Finally, Mr.

Speaker, of the four areas I wish to touch upon this afternoon probably the most impor tant is the significance of the task before us. The questions about basics, which have been addressed many times in the past, are before us again. The decisions are so important that they cannot be left to the educational establishment. The public is invited to play an active role. Some have already done so. Others are preparing their representations.

In fact, it was in search of a reasonable consensus on these matters that the government established the review of basic education as a major priority in the Speech from the Throne this spring. The debate begun today, to which will be added the advice of the public, will continue this fall. At that time it is the intention of this government to clarify a statement of goals of basic education. This will include the establishment of priorities. I would suggest there need be little debate about the place of knowledge, skills, and attitudes in communicating, including spoken and written compe tency.

Nor is much debate required in the area of computing at a functional level for daily living. Criti cal thinking and the will and ability to learn and act responsibly in serving others and in caring for oneself are very important areas that I am sure we can all accept. However, going beyond these items the choices become more difficult. In addition to the above, what knowledge, skills, and attitudes are going to prepare our children to live responsibly now and in their adult life? In answering that question we must look at some projections about the future.

People who are studying the future — the next 10 years — raise four concerns: economic growth, dem ocratic control, regional disparities, and meaningful life roles. First, economic growth. How much economic growth is compatible with our environment and society? How can depression, unemployment, and alienation of low-income groups be handled? What roles should consumer and environmental edu cation play? What should students know about economic and social systems? How can history and geography help in decisions about these very impor tant matters?

Secondly, how can the effects of technology be controlled without jeopardizing the free-enterprise and democratic system we have known? What should our students learn about control, about authority? What should students know about the law? Should they be able to complete an income tax return? Should they be able to complete an AIB form? What is the contribution of science? Thirdly, what can be done about the have and have-not groups in Canada and among the nations of the world? Should our students learn about these differences? Are second languages important in this context?

Should provision for religious studies exist in schools, to understand the contributions religions present? Fourthly, how can people have meaningful work roles in industry which is becoming increasingly automated? What balance is needed between skills of productivity and leisure? What should industrial education contribute? Do fine arts and physical and mental health have a place in the curriculum? Mr. Speaker, other questions flow from the above concerns. Do we want 12 years of schooling for all students or only for part of our students?

Do we want schooling only in the fundamentals or are individual talents and personal needs worthy of attention by schools? In this whole analysis, how do we balance the needs of the individual and the needs of society? How do we take into account the pluralistic nature of society, the individual needs that certain students have, and the fact that students progress at individual rates, levels of maturation are different, ability levels are different, and background is different? Do we educate for a growing industrial economy in Alberta?

Do we also prepare for the risks of unem ployment, economic recession, and austerity that may be consequences of decisions outside provincial con trol? Do we rely on the schools to compensate for family and community breakdown? Do we expect schools to train for prevention of future breakdown? Finally, from the ever-increasing amount of knowl edge and the ever-shortening span of time and dis tance from the rest of the world, what do we select as priorities?

What balance should there be between learning specific facts, which often undergo rapid change, and generalizations which permit students to handle the exploding knowledge? This is a time for a penetrating look into the future, to see what type of future we would prefer. It's also a time for a careful look at the hazards lurking on each side. It's a time to glance in our rearview mirror to remind ourselves of the barriers we have overcome. Mr. Speaker, we are undertaking the charting of a

1346 ALBERTA HANSARD May 16, 1977 course for nearly half a million young people each year. The course they will be required to follow for 12 years will have to equip them basically for the threescore or more years that follow. The founda tions we prescribe in the 1970s may have to be with us until the first half of the twenty-first century. In my remarks, Mr. Speaker, I've posed many ques tions but have not provided answers. In doing so, I've attempted to remind hon. members not only of the importance but the complexity of the task ahead of us. In raising these questions, Mr.

Speaker, I'm reminded of a story I often share with school children in my many visits to schools in the province. It's a story I use to illustrate the prime importance of the need for their personal involvement and dedication for a successful and rewarding education. It goes like this: approximately 2,000 years ago in ancient Greece, there lived a very wise man, an oracle, a man who knew the answer to every question. In this particular little town in Greece, word came that this wise man would be visiting the town. One of the little boys in the town took a great interest in this.

He thought to himself, if I can pose a question to that wise man that he is unable to answer, I'll be the biggest little big shot in this whole town. So he sat down on the back porch of his home. He started to think and plan, and the idea came. This is the plan he conceived. He said to himself, I'll go out into the woods and catch a little bird, one so small that I can safely conceal it in the palms of my hands. After I've caught the bird I'll seek out this wise man and ask him this question: "What have I got in my hands?" Being very wise, the man will of course say, "a bird".

But then my next question will be: "But is that bird dead or alive?" If he says the bird is dead, I'll simply open up my hands and the bird will fly away. However, if he says the bird is alive, I'll just silently crush it. No matter what, I'll prove him wrong. So, happy with his plan, he set about pursuing it and bringing it to fruition. He went into the woods and soon caught the little bird that was necessary to fulfil his plans. He then sought out the wise man, who was surrounded by a number of people.

And there, fidgeting and moving around with great anxiety and a great deal of confidence, he was soon spotted by the wise man, who called him to the front and said, "Young man, you seem to be very interested in asking me something." The young man said, "Yes, wise man. What do I have in my hands?" The wise man of course answered, "Why, young man, you have a bird." Then the boy said, "Yes, but tell me: is that bird dead or alive?" The wise man was about to answer, when suddenly a great look of wisdom came into his eyes.

He put his hand on the little boy's shoulder and said, "Young man, the answer to that question is in your hands." Mr. Speaker, during the course of this summer, we will be seeking the assistance of many people in answering the complex and important questions that have been posed. But the answer to those questions will ultimately rest in our hands as we make the decisions, very important decisions, this fall. Mr. Speaker, daily you call on the assistance of our heavenly Father for His guidance and enlightenment in the decisions we are about to make.

On that particular day when we answer these questions, His guidance, His enlightenment will be most welcome. MR. STROMBERG: Mr. Speaker, may I have your permission to revert to Introduction of Visitors? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS (reversion) MR. STROMBERG: Thank you. Mr. Speaker, we have with us today grades 8 and 9 from Round Hill in my constituency. They have their teacher Mrs. Ilnicki and their school bus driver Mr. Banack. They are sitting in the public gallery. I'll ask them to rise and be recognized by this Legislature. MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, might I make the same request of you. I'd like to introduce to you, sir, and to the members of the Assembly a group of grade 10 students from the Carstairs high school in the con stituency of Olds-Didsbury. They are accompanied by their teacher Mr. Brinton and by a parent Mrs. Sut- moller. They are in the members gallery, and I'd ask that they rise and be recognized on this occasion. head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS (continued) MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, it's my pleasant opportunity to take

part in the debate on this resolu tion this afternoon. Mr. Minister, I would say that with the enthusiasm you as the Minister of Education and the Premier had around the first of this year with regard to making pronouncements as far as education was concerned, I had really hoped, Mr. Speaker, that the minister today would perhaps take a bit of time and give us a bit more insight into his thinking as we are now involved in this period of reassessment of the basic goals and objectives of education.

I can appreciate why the minister attempted to lay the thing before the mem bers of the Assembly and say to the people of Alberta, we have until the fall of this year until some very important decisions are made. I would say, Mr. Min ister, it is extremely important that these decisions are made by the fall of this year, because I think in the last number of months — either on purpose or inadvertently, and I think it's the latter — a great deal of uncertainty has developed in some quarters of the educational community in Alberta. There has been a great deal of talk about moving back to the basics.

As I've said in this Assembly before — and I believe I said so just two weeks ago when we were studying the minister's estimates — one of the real difficulties I have with people who talk in terms of going back to the basics is to get them to explain to me what their perception of the basics really is. It's so very easy for people to talk in terms of the old three R's. I don't plan to take a great deal of time this afternoon in the course of my contribu tion to the debate.

But one of the points I want to make is that, for those people who look back to the time each of us went to school and think in terms of the three R's at that time, that isn't the kind of

May 16, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 1347 educational direction we need for the future in this province. I suppose that to oversimplify the real problem before us is for each of us to try to think, how do we view the education system? What are our percep tions as to the kinds of opportunities we want for the people of this province in the future? It's very easy not to oversimplify. But from my point of view — and I must admit it's a biased point of view; I'm a parent, extremely fortunate [to have] a son in grade 4 and a daughter in grade 2.

I have a certain vested interest, I suppose one would say, in some aspects of educa tion, because I was minister for three or four years. The more one looks at what is happening in the Department of Education, the wiser one becomes about the decisions one should have made, or per haps didn't make, when one was there. I suspect that all ministers have that experience later on. Certainly from the standpoint of a taxpayer, then as the leader of a political party in the province . . .

But I think the simplest way I can place before the members of the Assembly my perception as to where we should be going in education is to say that one of abilities, one of the — let me use the term "skills" — certainly one of the objectives, has to be in the whole area of young people's abilities to communicate. That includes reading, writing, and so many other things. Too often, I think, people reflect on the time they went to school and forget how the body of knowledge has expanded in the past number of years, and how it's going to continue to expand.

One of the basic objectives we must give an extremely high priority to is that area of communica tion: to develop the ability within young people to communicate the written word, the spoken word. If we're not successful in developing that ability within young people, the possibilities of their being success ful, participating members of the Alberta of the 1980s, 1990s, and 2000 are extremely limited. The second area we have to place a high priority on has to be the whole decision-making process.

It seems to me that another objective that has to rank very high is the ability to make reasoned decisions, the ability to pull together a great amount of informa tion and then make reasoned and rational, intelligent decisions. That doesn't mean we're all going to agree on those decisions. It doesn't mean we're always going to agree even on the information we use for the decision. But that ability to make decisions. In devel oping that ability one has to take unto oneself a substantive body of knowledge, also how to organize and to research.

So many skills are involved in developing that ability to make decisions. Thirdly, the objective of knowing oneself. I know there are people both inside and outside the educa tional community who don't place nearly as high priority as I do on this objective of really knowing oneself — knowing one's abilities, strengths, weak nesses: really what a person can do. By the time a student leaves high school, at 17 or 18 years of age, it seems to me it's extremely important that he have a feeling of self-confidence, but also know what he can do, where his strengths are, and where his weak nesses are.

Fourthly, I'd place a high priority on the objective of being able to get along with the people you work with — your fellow man. In general terms those four areas — communication, decision-making, knowing oneself, and being able to get along with one's fellow man — set a basis for some of the very high priority areas as far as the education system is concerned. Mr. Speaker, in addition to this question of the objectives, goals, and priorities in education, it seems to me we also have to recognize that an important part of the discussion is the teaching methods used.

The discussion now going on across Alberta isn't just on goals and objectives, but on the question: have we too many options or haven't we enough? What about the teacher/pupil ratio and related areas? Mr. Minister, earlier I said it's important that some firm decisions are made by the end of this year. I think you have indicated November. I think it's very important that those decisions are made by then, because many other decisions have to follow. The decisions brought to this Assembly in the fall have implications as far as curriculum is concerned.

They have implications as far as teacher/pupil ratio is concerned. They have implications for finance right across the board. Mr. Minister, in the concluding portion of your remarks you talked of the need to have a penetrating look into the future. I believe the government missed an opportunity, perhaps in 1972, with the Worth report being made available. I think many people assumed the government was in basic agreement with the bulk of the recommendations in the Worth report.

Whether or not that was the intention of the government, it's my best judgment that many people inside and outside the educational community assumed, when the government took Dr. Worth on as Deputy Minister of Advanced Education, that to a very great degree the bulk of those recommendations had at least a portion of approval by the government — I rue the word "portion" — basic approval by the government as far as direction of education for the future. In hindsight, I think it's unfortunate that we didn't spend some time talking about longer term goals at that time.

What's happening in Alberta today is part of what's happening all across North America. We can look back — if I may use the term — to the "small-c conservative" swing in education in the 1950s, the liberal wave in the 1930s, or the great wave of freedom in the educational system in the 1960s. Once again we're going through one of these reas sessments. It isn't just in Alberta. It's going on across the continent. I'm sure there'll be a need for the same kind of reassessment a number of years from now. But when that reassessment is completed, Mr. Min ister, it will be incumbent upon you as the minister MR.

SPEAKER: Would the hon. member please use the ordinary parliamentary form. MR. CLARK: When the assessment is finished it will be incumbent upon the minister to give some firm educational leadership. Obviously we're going to have to wait until November of this year. But follow ing November we should start to see a number of steps taken within the whole educational framework in the province of Alberta. Mr. Speaker, I believe it's also important that we not think in terms of back-to-the-basics, the term I used earlier in my remarks. What has to take place

1348 ALBERTA HANSARD May 16, 1977 between now and November is really a consolidation of the tremendous number of good things going on in education today. A huge number of very excellent things are going on in the education system regard less of where they may be. As I see it, basically we need to consolidate those. We can all look at available options that don't meet our particular fancy, and maybe we've gone too far in that area in some regards. If we've gone too far, we can blame three people: the present minister and the two former ministers, who happen to sit in this Assembly.

The minister has to approve those kinds of courses. Maybe we've gone a bit too far in that direction. But what we need to do is talk in terms of a consolidation of the number of very good things going on in the system. One thing we should do after November is reinstate grade 12 examinations. I recall some of the discus sions I had prior to 1971 with officials of The Alberta Teachers' Association and the Department of Educa tion. I think it's fair to say that many people in the educational community at that time were very keen on removing grade 12 examinations. I believe a balance needs to be struck.

I'm rather impressed with the balance of 50 per cent of the mark for the examination and 50 per cent of the mark for the year's work. I think that kind of balance is reasonable. But I do think we need to reinstitute grade 12 examinations on an across-the-province basis: I also think it's essential that there be bench marks, perhaps at grade 9 and certainly as far as the latter years of elementary education are concerned. Mr. Speaker, I am somewhat concerned about a letter that went out from the Deputy Minister of Education in January of this year. I think it went out to school superintendents.

I don't have a copy of the letter with me — I'm in the same position as the Minister of Labour today; I've misplaced it. But I can get a copy for the minister if he so requests. That letter talked about what finishing grade 12 meant. My understanding of that particular paragraph of the letter is that grade 12 and a high school diploma should be broad enough that virtually everyone can finish grade 12 and get a high school diploma. If that is the intention of the government, I believe we've watered down grade 12 and a high school diploma to the point where it is virtually meaningless.

The min ister may like to place some other

interpretation on the letter. I believe the letter was dated January 19 of this year. I think it bears very careful examination. My impression from that letter was that basically we were talking about a high school diploma and a grade 12 that everyone was going to be able to complete It seems to me that's watering down a high school diploma to the point where it's certainly meaningless. Mr. Speaker, there are two other points I want to make. The first deals with this question of teaching styles.

I suppose one can oversimplify the question of teaching approaches or teaching styles to a point where we talk in terms of formal and informal approaches. When I talk about the informal approach, I think in terms of all the things that have happened as far as open classrooms, field trips — all those kinds of experiences, and many others too numerous to mention. When I talk about the formal approach I think in terms of the lecture approach and base to be there. It seems to me, Mr.

Speaker, all members of the Assembly must be conscious of the fact that we are dealing with approximately 300,000 young people across this province. Fortunately, no two of them are exactly alike. Each and every one is an individual. The teaching style or approach that will really turn one student on is an approach that won't work with other students.

A number of members in the Assem bly are teachers, and if I could revert to my teaching past for a moment and simply say this: I think likely the greatest thrill a teacher gets is, when you're trying to explain something to a student, all of a sudden the light seems to come on, and he develops an understanding, whether it's a mathematical equa tion or whatever you are trying to explain.

The point I'm really trying to make here is that we must be careful in establishing these goals and objec tives, at the same time not to try to narrow too much the kinds of flexibility available to teachers as far as teaching approaches are concerned. Teachers are no different from any other group. There are highly successful teachers and there are teachers who aren't so successful. But that is true of every group in society. Basically I think we have an excellent group of teachers in this province.

It's possible, I'm sure, for each member to be able to get up and talk about some teachers in his or her constituency who haven't measured up. But, at the same time, we can do the same thing as far as farmers or members of various professions are concerned. When we're doing this restructuring of education I think it's impor tant that we don't constrict too much the educational techniques available to teachers.

From the standpoint of instruction, I suppose the best way one can really look at this area is to say, how can conservatives be made to understand that making school enjoyable does not subvert learning, and progressive to admit that enthusiasm over their ideas is not enough to make them work. That's the dilemma we must continue to face — to recognize on one hand there is a very conservative point of view, and on the other hand a very progressive point of view in education, and that neither side has all the answers. Neither side is able to hold the day.

The educational pendulum swings back and forth, and that's a very healthy situation. I suppose the thing we must guard against in this Assembly is to see that it doesn't go too far one way or too far the other way. We can point back to times during the '60s and '50s when it may well have swung too far one way or the other. I detect the educational pendulum now swinging back in a conservative direction. That's with a small "c" I hasten to add. When many of us talk about the basics, I think that's why politicians very often get a very, very favorable response.

I have just finished a questionnaire for my constit uency. There is between a 20-25 per cent return. One of the questions I asked was: what do you consider to be the important aspects of a successful school situation? A high percentage of my constitu ents talked in terms very meaningful to them about the ability of young people to be able to read and write well, to have a high degree of respect, and to understand authority. But last time I checked, read ing and writing were [in] over 50 per cent of the returns.

My plea — or my pitch — to members of the Assembly is that when we talk in terms of where we are going, to me we're talking in terms of the ability

May 16, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 1349 of people to communicate, to make decisions, to know themselves, and to get along with those people they work with day in and day out. As members of this Assembly, if we can help the development of those abilities and skills in young people, so the young people who walk out of the schools in this province in the future have that kind of grounding for the future, then Alberta will be in extremely good hands, and the future of this province will be on very, very firm underpinnings. The last point I want to make, Mr.

Speaker, simply deals with this matter of going back to November when the minister will have these matters of objec tives and goals tied down in priorities. I think it's important, Mr. Minister, that government give serious consideration to looking at a careful review of The School Act. Some sections of The School Act I think need to be reviewed. Basically, I think the review should be done after this period of soul-searching, if that's what we want to call it, is completed. I think, also Mr.

Minister, as I have said on other occasions in this Assembly, it will be essential for us at that time to look once again at the foundation plan. I've said before in the Assembly that I think the days of one plan serving the needs of all the province are past. It may well be that we will have to end up with either one plan, or three or four approaches to the various situations we face across the province from the standpoint of educational finance.

Going along with the decision to be made in the fall, it will be essential, in my judgment, that a careful look be taken at The School Act and at the foundation program to really gear it up for the new priorities and objectives that will be forthcoming in the fall. I hope, Mr. Speaker, that the minister's advisory committee will meet just half the expectations that many people have for it. I think they have taken on an extremely challenging, difficult, and on occasions very frustrating job. I wish them the very best of luck in their endeavors.

I am hopeful that they will soon have the opportunity to meet with the Premier. I think the Curriculum Policies Board — and I haven't spoken to them about this — would find it helpful. I notice at the meeting on September 28, the minis ter indicated that the Premier would be meeting with the board in the near future. I would hope, Mr.

Premier, it would be possible for you to meet with this board shortly, so that perhaps in addition to the feel the minister has given them as to what their respon sibilities are and the importance of this board, they would have the opportunity to spend some time with the Premier of the province so the Curriculum Poli cies Board would better understand and appreciate the very difficult and challenging job they have taken on.

Because, to a very great degree, the recommen dations of this board could have a very sizable impact not only on the direction that curriculum takes but also on the direction of goals and objectives in the long term of the province. I trust, Mr. Premier, in light of your statement around the first of the year when you said you were going to become very actively involved in the field of education in '77, that one of your next involvements in this area will be to sit down with the Curriculum Policies Board. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to participate in the debate.

The Leader of the Oppo sition mentioned that over the last number of years we have seen a shift from a very conservative approach toward teaching to a progressive approach. We've seen attitudes change. I believe it was in the 1950s that Dr. Neatby's book, So Little for the Mind was written. These waves have come and gone for many years. It's perhaps important to recognize that at the outset of our discussions, Mr. Speaker.

Because while at this point in time many educators, and certainly many parents, are talking about the return to the basics — and that definition of the basics tends to be rather narrowly defined, essentially meaning the three R's — it would be a little foolish of us to suggest that the mood five years from now will be the same. What I'm suggesting then, Mr. Speaker, is that because education is constantly changing in a world that is constantly changing, no definition of the goals and objectives of education will be able to stand the challenge of unlimited passage of time.

That is some thing which, I submit, will be an ongoing debate within our society for many years. Mr. Speaker, I think perhaps one of the best defini tions of what we should be seeking to do in our education system was contained in an editorial in, I believe, the March issue of the ATA magazine. The editorial looks at the debate which is presently occur ring in Great Britain and then assesses the same debate in Alberta. It says: The great non-debate has also been taking place in Alberta.

The important question to ask about our schools is not, "Do they turn out enough people who can read, write, and count?" but "Do they turn out students who are intellec tually disciplined and can think for themselves?" The old business of sorting, grading, and produc ing uniform products from our schools is a much easier task than helping students achieve their full potential as human beings. It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that certainly sets out one of the goals I believe should exist in our educa tion system. We must strive to turn out students "who are intellectually disciplined and can think for themselves".

That means obviously a certain amount of core program has to be provided which sets out much of the intellectual discipline necessary if a person is to be able to make full use of his or her education during the course of their lives. The second point I'd like to make, Mr. Speaker, is that in my judgment anyway education can only really set — and perhaps not more than that — a framework for learning in a fast-changing world. I suggest the classic debate between facts learned, the old rote process, or a process of learning being stimulated, is one of the central questions that has to be addressed today.

As a consequence, Mr. Speaker, I just do not accept much of the back-to-the-basics rhetoric. It seems a yearning by many people for a simpler, less complex world. If followed in terms of rearranging our educa tional goals, it could very severely handicap and reduce the quality of education in the province of Alberta. Let me take one example. Let's examine the ques tion of the teaching of history in our school system. In years past, the teaching of history was a relatively straightforward process. One learned dates. And around the dates — whether it was the Quebec Act,

1350 ALBERTA HANSARD May 16, 1977 the Constitutional Act, the Act of Union, or Lord Durham's report — you learned by rote. Now, Mr. Speaker, I submit that a more valuable way to teach history is not to design an examination which the [question] is: when was the Quebec Act? If you have the right year, you get the right answer, and that's full marks. But in my judgment a rather more impor tant part of the teaching of history is that one can understand the trends, the reasons why things hap pened, and the relevance of history.

When I first took history at the University of Alberta one of the complaints I recall of so many people in high school about history really questioned its rele vance. Why should we learn all these facts? Why should we learn all these dates? What relevance is it to us that dates X, Y, and Z are contained in the history books? Mr. Speaker, as I look at the present social studies program I believe it is a better program, quite frankly, than it was 20 years ago.

And it is a better program than it was 40 years ago, because I think there is at least some effort to make the study of history relevant to the student, to make it something that is living, not something that is just dragged up from the past that we have to learn in order to regurgitate it in an examination so we can get a mark and then go on to the next level. Mr. Speaker, we can talk about the definition of the basics. When one discusses this with some parents, it's very simple and straightforward: reading, writing, and arithmetic. You can go beyond that. I notice the minister talked about free enterprise.

He'd be interested to know that this spring, the Utah State Legislature passed a bill which said that in Utah the basics are that their social studies program must teach the values and virtues of the free enterprise system. I'm sure that might meet with a fair amount of support in this particular Assembly. But I submit, Mr. Speaker, that part of the process of learning, part of the process of challenging young people in education, is to have them examine dif ferent systems of organizing the economy, different systems of government. As a consequence they will learn to think critically and for themselves.

I rather like the definition of basics contained in the report which was sent to members of the Legislative Assembly — I'm sure we all received it — dated March 28, 1977 from the executive council of the ATA. Their definition of basics is: The "basics" in education are those learning experiences that develop and modify skills and attitudes to provide for continued learning, self- fulfillment, social awareness and morality, adap tability to a changing society, productive em ployment and personal wellbeing. Mr.

Speaker, if you were to take that definition of the basics, which I find rather attractive, and discuss it before a group of people who see basics as essen tially doing away with most of the options, getting back to the basic core program, there would be some real difference of opinion. Yet, if we are going to look at the importance and the role of education, if that's the definition of basics, the one contained in this report, then I'm in support of the basics. But I would not want to see us revert to the rather simplistic

definitions we've [heard] expressed in some quarters. Mr. Speaker, part of the education system as well, one of its goals, must be to stimulate a love of learning. I mentioned this when we debated the estimates of the Department of Education. Things are changing so rapidly today that we can't go back to the good old days when a student could digest The Book of Knowledge. You look at the geography textbook . . . and you've got the map of the world, and in The Book of Knowledge, the sun never sets on the British Empire, and all that sort of thing. One looks back at some of the textbooks of 1910, 1915, 1920.

It may perhaps have made a little more sense, but in a world where there is literally a knowledge explosion it is less important that facts be acquired than that the process of learning, of intellectual discovery, be stimulated. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that one of the arguments for options in our high school system is that options do contribute to a love of learning in many ways. Not every student is primarily interested in the study of social studies. Not every student is turned on by English, or mathematics, or science.

I believe those courses must be there to provide intellectual disci pline, as I mentioned before, but I would argue that options do contribute to a dimension of interest which contributes to the overall attitude of the student to the process of learning. Mr. Speaker, there's one additional point I'd like to make when we address the question of the goals of education. I say to members of the House that we've heard a lot in this country in the last few years, in the last few months in particular, about how we're going to keep Canada together.

I don't believe the so-called bilingual policy in the federal civil service has con tributed a great deal to Canadian unity. But I am strongly of the view that if we are to keep this country united, English-speaking Canadians are going to have to learn to speak French; the place where that can develop is not with many of us who have gone through the system and may have built up a million emotional reasons we're not going to learn French. The place where it has to develop is our school system.

The money spent on teaching French in the school system and encouraging younger people in Alberta to learn French — and the same is true of Newfound land, or Saskatchewan, or British Columbia — will contribute far more to Canadian unity than all the money we've dumped into retraining or trying to educate civil servants 50 or 55 years of age to speak the French language so they can obtain advancement in the public service. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that one of the goals we have to look at in our education system is how that system can be developed to con tribute to Canadian unity. Mr.

Speaker, when the minister introduced the sub ject today, he talked about looking in the rear-view mirror. Perhaps we should do that, because it is easy to criticize the education system. I think a number of people have been taking rather cheap shots at the education system in this province. The number of students who complete high school is way up, com pared to 25 years ago. It might be of interest to members to look at the statistics. In 1951, only 30 per cent of students who started school 11 years before would complete grade 12. In 1974, that increased to 86 per cent.

In 1951, while 30 per cent would reach grade 12, only 14 per cent would com plete the necessary requirements for a high school diploma. In 1974, that had risen to 60 per cent. In

May 16, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 1351 1951, only 5 per cent of the students entering the system would obtain senior matriculation. In 1974, 31 per cent obtained senior matriculation. Let's look at it from the viewpoint of numbers of students attending university. In 1955, 1,620 stu dents entered university; in 1969, almost five times as many — 7,925, or 27 per cent of the grade 12 class 12 years before — entered university. A fivefold increase.

I know there have been a number of comments by certain people, including some people in the educa tion establishment, that when students graduate from high school they don't have the necessary skills. I was interested to see a report compiled in the city of Calgary which indicated that employers apparently don't share the criticism of high schools: 73 per cent of the employers in this particular survey were satis fied with applicants' communication skills and basi cally felt the high school system was doing a good job. Let me stop here for a moment.

If one could take this time frame — 1977 — and go back 25 years, you would have all the arguments applied against the system 25 years ago that we hear today. If you took another time frame — 25 years further back — and posed the same questions, you would have all the criticisms: our system is going to the dogs, the stu dents can't read or write or do arithmetic, and what have you. I'm suggesting, Mr. Speaker, that when one looks, there does not seem to be any real evi dence to indicate there has been a deterioration in the standards of our education system. If anything, it has improved. Mr.

Speaker, the argument has been raised by a number of people that we have shifted too much from a traditionalist to a progressive approach to educa tion. As the Leader of the Opposition pointed out, this too has been a part of the old argument. It seems that for a few years we move in one direction and then for a few years we move in another direction. The report contained in the March 1977 edition of Saturday Review on the British system looks at what happened in that particular country. Members will know that moves were made in Great Britain to more open teaching styles.

I think the Lancaster report makes some very important observations: this ques tion of an open versus formal teaching method is not an "either/or" choice between opposites. Instead of identifying just two diametric . . . teaching styles, the observers noted a variety of at least 12 distinct styles, and a mix of many more. As has already been pointed out, the report suggests that much of the thrust for a more open system has an immense amount of merit. It's difficult for teach ers in that system.

It's much easier to teach in a formal method, in a lecture approach, than it is to stimulate learning through a more open approach. But the basic conclusion of this report is that one has to achieve a balance between the two basic styles, and that if there is to be a compromise in the emphasis, the individual teacher is to a large extent better able to cope with that. Some teachers can take the open approach and do an outstanding job, and the educational experience is very useful. On the other hand, other teachers are better to retain a more formal approach to instruction.

Rather than our system in Alberta in 1977 being unbalanced in that we've moved far too much in the direction of the progressive as opposed to the tradi tional approach, I suggest that we have not a bad balance. We have a reasonable balance between core subjects on one hand and options on the other. That doesn't mean that we can't assess the balance through the curriculum committee. We're going to have to do that on an ongoing basis anyway. As one member of the Legislature, I want to say that in my judgment we have a pretty good balance to date. Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to make two other points before concluding my remarks. I'd like to take just a second or two to examine the structure of education in Alberta. I want to make it clear to members of the Assembly that I support both the public-public and the public-separate approach to education. That's part of The Alberta Act. In my view, through our financing we have to make sure that both systems are treated absolutely equally.

I say that not because that's seriously in dispute among members of the Legislature, but because we have the submission of the private schools who are arguing that in order to diversify the educational experience we should have almost equal funding — not quite equal funding — for private schools in Alberta. I submit that while private schools should be allowed to exist in Alberta — I'm not arguing that point — we should not move significantly beyond the level of funding we have today, which is 50 per cent of the funding for the public and separate school systems.

The two systems already in place stem from the historical development of Alberta. They are part of the act which established the province. I won't go into the details; we've already discussed that several times in past debates in the Legislature. But I do not see us moving to almost equal funding for private schools. I believe those who want private schools just have to accept the accompanying financial com mitment to dig up the extra money.

If they wish to send their students for religious or whatever reasons, I think they have to find the extra dollars to send their students to that kind of educational experience. Mr. Speaker, while society must define the goals, the question often arises as to what extent should we be attempting to say to the teaching profession, this is how we expect you to conduct yourself in the classroom. I suggest quite frankly that the process of establishing the goals is properly one for society as a whole, but teachers as professionals should organize the schools and the curriculum to achieve the aims of society.

I feel quite strongly about the importance of that differentiation. Mr. Speaker, the other thing I would like to say in concluding my remarks is while we can talk about the structure of education, the goals, the aims, [while] we can look back at some of the achievements that have occurred in the last few years, I submit we still have some work to do, Mr. Minister, in ensuring that every Albertan has equal access to education to the limit of that student's capacity.

One area I would say we should change, and pro vide the funding to make it possible, is The School Act, so that divisions will have to provide schooling for mentally handicapped children, so that it is a requirement of law — not a requirement of law [for] which the local taxpayer is going to have to pick up the burden one hundred per cent, but a responsibility which we in fact will fund from the province because

1352 ALBERTA HANSARD May 16, 1977 we are committed to equal opportunities for education. Other areas too transgress the boundaries of this particular resolution: the question of tuition of post- secondary institutions or expanded adult education. Some of the moves we've made with Athabasca University are laudable and, in my judgment, repre sent an important experiment across the province in adult education in the home that will have to be expanded. My final remark, Mr. Speaker, is related to what I've said.

If we're going to ensure accessibility to all children, wherever they live, if we're going to make the improvements that we've talked about to date, I submit that education must be removed from the restrictions of the restraint program. We're going to have to provide the extra dollars necessary to improve and to continue the process of improving education in this province. One of the most interesting parts of the recent report by Dr.

Hansen — I won't go over the details of it — indicates that the contributions from the school foundation plan have declined from 91 per cent in 1961-62, to 82.5 per cent in 1970-71, to 75 per cent in 1974-75. At the same time, conditional grants and supplementary requisitions — particularly supplementary requisitions — have increased in a commensurate way. So, Mr. Speaker, notwithstanding all the rhetoric we've heard about spending more per capita than any other province in Canada, that's only true if one adds the local expenditures.

If you take a look at the expenditures of the provincial government itself, I believe we still rank third. What I'm saying is that there is no point in us talking at length about the goals and objectives of education unless we are pre pared to make the necessary changes so that educa tion will be able to move forward. And that means lifting the restraint program from education.

Just as we did not apply restraint to the administration of justice and other areas last year, I would argue that as we move in the future, education must have that flexibility so we can continue basically to make what is a good system even better. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to congratulate the minister for bringing this motion to the floor of the Assembly and the teachers, who have done a tremendous job in this province for many, many years — not only have done, but in fact are doing — for such a very important area which is the central core, the essence of our society, that is education.

I'm sure it's acknowledged by all members in this Assembly that education, being as difficult as it is, indeed poses many problems. I'm sure the teachers, parents, and our society generally recognize this fact. I would also like to agree generally with the base line the hon. minister has set down. I think it certainly sets the stage very well for this type of discussion and debate, if you wish, not only in the Assembly [but] beyond this Assembly too.

The comments raised by the hon. members opposite regarding learning how to learn, organize, and so forth are certainly worthy of consid eration by those who will be involved in setting goals and objectives. Mr. Speaker, the sorting of priorities is an unbe lievable task. I suggest it should certainly be intro duced on a gradual basis after those priorities are in fact set down, maybe in the next year or so, because I feel very strongly that priorities, after they're set, may require that so-called fine tuning or readjustment if something else comes on the horizon after they're set down. Mr.

Speaker, in discussing in the throne speech the goals and priorities of basic education or, as we are today, the goals and objectives of elementary and secondary education and priorities to be attributed to these goals, we have, as I indicated, a major task — a major expenditure also, if I may say so. If we were to recall, in 1971 I believe we spent $387 million for Education and Advanced Education together. In 1977-78, as we've just passed through the budget, Education itself is $564 million.

I understand Ad vanced Education is $335 [million] — a very substan tive increase in this very important area, which I suggest the government recognizes. Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt that the end of Alberta's education is to turn out students who are mentally disciplined. But I suggest that mental disci pline will be something less if we don't in fact achieve physical discipline as well as mental discipline. Mr. Speaker, at first blush we can talk about the basics. I suggest the basics — there's nothing to be ashamed of because they are the core subjects.

If one reviews the annual review, we see that most of the students are in fact centred in English, reading, writing, arithmetic, social studies, history, science, and health. For the purpose of this discussion and debate, I'd like to call them the "big five".

I suggest that these basics — reading, writing, arithmetic, so cial studies, science, and health and safety — should be very carefully taught to assure optimal perfor mance, optimal knowledge, and optimal flexibility to think and use that knowledge; and not to turn out carbon copies or so-called robots — a concern very strongly expressed by The Alberta Teachers' Associa tion and others. I agree with that statement. Mr. Speaker, our professionals, our teachers, our students are not on trial here. I suggest we're all on trial.

For the decision we will [make] in the next while, be it in the next six months or the next year or two, will certainly set the stage for future societal action. Mr. Speaker, when in fact a certain direction is taken and is not producing a desired result — as I suggest, the goals and objectives have served their purpose and served them well. But if they are not serving their desired result — and we hear that out on the hustings — then I suggest it's the noble and the strong who admit they are wrong. As a result, we are reassessing and reappraising it.

I suggest that it's truly fools who persist if in fact we are not satisfied with it. These are strong words, Mr. Speaker. They're meant in a very sincere way. We have to delineate where we are going for the next few years. But at the same time, I am suggesting to the members of the Assembly that this delineation should not be extreme in one way or another. Let's not be extreme.

Because we've had extremes over the past genera tion or two: the child-centred classroom; progressive education; the classroom where the teacher must not fail normal children if the student has not achieved an adequate level of achievement, because the poor student may feel rejected; the teaching of courses so they will be fun, so our students will not be

May 16, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 1353 discouraged. A generation where courses are geared to the lowest common denominator in a normal classroom [is] a serious concern, Mr. Speaker. A system which has taught many students that education can be attained even without effort.

A system in which the teachers in large numbers are losing empathy from the public — not because they are not first-class professionals and teachers in fact, not because they are not well trained, but because they are part of these front-line workers who are really doing the job for us — and thank God for them — they are caught in the whirlwind of the system and in fact must receive the criticism, as all of us do when we're in the front line, even as politicians. Mr. Speaker, a system, I suggest, which has frus trated many teachers causes them to quit because the teacher knows what in fact should be done.

Yet he cannot carry out this task because the system has pushed him into that item. Finally, Mr. Speaker, a system has developed for the sake for progress, a so-called 'progressivist' which is in many ways dia metrically opposed to the structured, traditional edu cation we know. Mr. Speaker, of course there are good and bad on both sides of the fence. A system which many educa tors have stated, after $40,000-plus now, produces a student after a B.A. degree who has difficulty in fact to write, to spell, to talk, to think straight, to get a job, and to communicate adequately.

A system where 400,000 students and their parents are certainly con cerned more and more as time goes on and are asking for some correction or redirection — but not extreme. Mr. Speaker, today we are offering this fresh direc tion. I hope it's fresh. Not new — I emphasize that — but fresh. Not extreme — again I emphasize that — but moderate, tried and proven, recognizing in spite of all these problems that a good majority of our stu dents have achieved well, are good students, and will in fact serve well, and that teachers are truly doing a first-rate job.

The concerns I have indicated in the past few paragraphs certainly must be answered, and answered adequately. Speaking on this motion, Mr. Speaker, I feel that the Legislature realizes there is no way any of us in a 20-minute dissertation could ever hope to cover the whole field of goals and objectives and set the priori ties for elementary and secondary education. So I hope all of us in our way will contribute to some of these points.

But there is no doubt that the complexi ties of our society, as the hon. minister has indicated — be they the shrinking world, the advancement in technology, computerization, the challenge regarding values of work, leisure, and so forth — are items [that] merit concern and certainly reassessment. So such an assessment of goals and objectives, Mr. Speaker, if it is to be translated in fact into programs, and essential programs . . . As I have indicated before, I hope other members will indeed participate and I am asking societal members, be they parents or whoever out there is concerned about this.

In speaking on the goals and objectives in a more specific sense, Mr. Speaker, my first offering to the Legislature and to the minister and his department is that I hope we set down the first, basic goal or prime goal. I emphasize this, and I'll repeat it two or three times as I go through my statement. I feel this prime goal is of course the individual's needs: his needs for food, clothing, shelter, health, education, jobs, and the freedoms. He must understand that. He must understand that that educational program is for him and his future family. The second portion of this first and most important goal, Mr.

Speaker, is societal needs. He must recog nize and appreciate the relevancy of his activities in relationship to society, for order, for protection of that society, to ensure continuity, and the need that socie ty must in fact fill the gap where the individual fails. The other portion of this first and most important goal, Mr. Speaker, is the traditional values — be they the family, church, school, community, and the coun try — which reflect tolerance, justice, and honesty. Mr.

Speaker, if the student and the teacher do not grasp this type of relevancy of the whole educational system, I suggest education will be something less. The student must honor, respect, and know these factors. If he doesn't honor and respect them, he must answer why he rejects them, and must go through the system recognizing that in fact he's going diametrically opposite to a system which is just and good. Mr. Speaker, as quickly as I make these remarks, I again emphasize that parents, churches, and all those involved play a very important role in adding to this, in contributing to this educational basic weave.

I'm saying that one of the basic weaves in the prime objective is the individual, the family, and societal values. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to turn to the "big five" again. But there are other basic weaves in addition to the big five I have mentioned; that is, physical fitness and career information — all interrelated. So if we un derstand and accept that fundamental prime objective of the individual and the society — and the value is the prime and most important thing of education — then I suggest all of it becomes relatively easier, except that those

definitions have to be clear. I suggest that certainly the relevancy has to be reinfor ced and constantly framed to the teacher as well as to the student, so that education will in fact become relevant. Mr. Speaker, when we talk about the "big five", I read in countless articles like this: "a university study shows English capability decline". A report prepared by the Association of Canadian University Teachers of English indicates that it finds an increasing number of students are coming to the nation's universities deficient in English training. The deficiencies are at the pre-university level.

It just illustrates one of the big five of the basic core subjects, if you wish, that there is certainly a concern [about]. My stand is very definite regarding more emphasis on the core sub jects of reading, writing, arithmetic, social studies, history with religion, and another language under reading and writing, science, and fitness, health, and safety, because for the teacher to project, rationalize, and influence the youth of the future in this area alone commands the full resources of our educators, parents, and students. Mr. Speaker, we know what we're talking about when we talk about frills.

And if we don't, maybe we should just review some of the 200 to 400 subjects taught in elementary and secondary education. I'm saying that the frills are unnecessary for normal students. They're great, but they're unnecessary.

1354 ALBERTA HANSARD May 16, 1977 They're costly, Mr. Speaker. In some measure they add, as one member has indicated. I can't debate that; they do indeed add. But they're not necessary in the scheme of things. If you have too many frills, they damage the basic program, because the basic programs become ineffective. The teacher hasn't the time. The student hasn't the time. He becomes frus trated and as a result doesn't do as well. Apart from the dollar cost. I suggest that extracurricular activi ties and other courses should be provided for those students who need it.

Here I'm speaking of handi capped or special students with special needs for special programs during the summer and so forth. But for the average student, the time allotted in the school system, the dollar spent is a difficult proposi tion with the rising cost of education. Mr. Speaker, let me review at this juncture, because time is limited. I indicated there are specific programs — the big five — not 300 or 400 courses. I'm talking about the academic portion, not vocational programs or special programs for the handicapped or mental patients.

I'm suggesting this flow into our basic and prime goals for the individual society in our value system has to be clearer for the teacher and student. The students should be properly educated in those areas. Having said that, Mr. Speaker, we know that reading, writing, arithmetic, and all those courses — for example, reading teaches listening, speaking, reading, viewing and so forth — are [among] the most important human traits. They have to be emphasized. There's no argument with respect to the importance of arithmetic in a complex society, the financial world, and technology.

With respect to social studies and the importance of knowing man in his relationship with other governments and munici palities and on provincial, national, and international levels; again there is no excuse for any student get ting out of grade 12 without a proper grounding in social studies, history, and the cultures of other worlds in our complex world — a very prime objec tive. Mr. Speaker, in science: man and his technolo gy, how the world has been made by man and how he can destroy himself. Again there is no excuse. Mr.

Speaker, I'm going to zero in on something dear to my heart: health, fitness, and safety. I obviously have a bias toward this area. I feel one area that has been very deficient — and it's a non-budgetary item, Mr. Speaker — is fitness, health, and safety in our school system. DR. BUCK: Got an example? DR. PAPROSKI: I'll give you many examples, hon. member opposite. Mr. Speaker, it is common knowledge now — research and literature have confirmed this — that health and fitness attainment on a physical basis is so important that the performance of every student, all things being equal, is improved substantially.

At this point I'd like to thank Janette Vallance, an asso ciate professor in the Faculty of Physical Education, who had a meeting with me regarding this item. She served on the National Report on New Perspectives for elementary school physical education programs. Mr. Speaker, I can assure you that this report, plus the numerous other reports substantiating the impor tance of physical fitness throughout our school sys tem, merits reading by all members. In fact I suggest to the hon. minister that this is an area that should indeed be emphasized and is a strongly deficient fac tor.

The report says in part: Informed opinion indicated that individual recrea tional and future oriented activities would help persons adjust to modern society, levels of stress would decline, with resulting improvements in self-image, self-confidence, and general overall performance. Mr. Speaker, there are many items I could read. I chose that at random. The problem here, Mr. Speaker, is optimal time. With optimal time for physical fitness, the child becomes more alert, more attentive, more able to perform, achieve better, and increase his attention span. That is a tremendous item.

That crosses all the basic courses. The converse is true, if fitness decreases. We must start early in the elementary educational system and pass right through grade 12 and onward. The other problem regarding physical fitness in our system, Mr. Speaker — this is directed primarily toward elementary education but also the secondary level — is optimal type of activities. We need no bleacher students. We need students who will all be involved. We need to decrease the stress on competi tion. Mr. Speaker, we need adequate facilities. I mean "facilities" in the equipment sense.

The equipment is inadequate for most elementary stu dents. They are in fact handed down from senior high school students. That equipment is just not good enough for elementary students so they can be properly motivated and start their physical fitness program early. With respect to teachers, Mr. Speaker, the average teacher can do the job very well, providing he's properly motivated or has in-service training at least. I suggest that 12 minutes in two periods, averaging 12 minutes a day or two half-hour periods a week, is just not good enough. It should be half an hour a day.

So I'm making my plea here for physical fitness, by and large a non-budgetary item. I suggest the system could do this by trained teachers in the school system going from school to school to properly motivate the teachers, not to take physical fitness in a casual way but in an enthusiastic, determined way. Concluding this item, to carry out the goals and objectives circumscribed by health, safety, and physi cal fitness and emphasis in this area, I suggest the student will express his anger in a different setting and will be able to control his anger and show how to handle it.

He'll learn how to handle other types of feelings rather than a suicide victim or [in] a mental institute. Mr. Speaker, as the final item, I'd like to zero in on the need for career information in our school system. At this juncture I'd like to thank my brother Carl Paproski, who is the director and/or consultant for career information and work experience in the Ed monton separate school system. Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry I'm speaking so quickly but I'm trying to cover a lot of area.

Having said that, I feel that in addition to physical fitness we need a very, very important dominating, connecting weave, if I may use that ex pression, with all the courses we have: career infor mation. Career information should be connected to these courses in a very practical way so that the courses in fact will be practical, relevant, important,

May 16, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 1355 and the student can feel and understand why he's taking that course. Otherwise, his motivation is decreased. Mr. Speaker, if I may read a definition of career information for the hon. members, to increase knowl edge in this area, and in fact mine, it may become clearer: First, career education should be part of the cur riculum for all students and not just some. Second, that it will continue right throughout the youngster's stay in school from the first grade through senior high and beyond, if he so elects.

Third, every student leaving school will possess the skills necessary to give him a start in making a livelihood for himself and his family even if he leaves before completing high school. Mr. Speaker, career education is an approach to education which stresses the instrumental value of all education in helping an individual become a partic ipating, contributing, and fulfilled citizen. Recogniz ing that there are thousands of occupations and a myriad of options, there are about 11 points regarding the concept of career education — again basically a non-budgetary item.

One, to prepare the student for working careers should be a key objective of all education. Two, every teacher in every course should emphasize the contribution that subject matter can make in a successful career. Mr. Speaker, the third point is: a hands-on, occupationally-oriented experience should be used. The fourth one is: prepa ration for a career should be recognized as evolving and interrelating work attitudes, human relations skills, orientation to the nature of the workday world.

Number five, learning cannot be reserved for the classroom; learning has to go out beyond the class room into the home, the community, and the teacher should be involved. There are many, many more items in this area. Concluding, Mr. Speaker, regarding the goals and objectives of education I suggest [we] evaluate these items calmly, deliberately, and change very gradually.

We've had a society . . . we had a change before, and I think this gradual change should take over two or three years after the priorities have been set in a positive way with maximal emphasis on the basic core subjects which are still the foundation of a student's background, recognizing the special courses, vocational, arts, and so forth are still neces sary and certainly very human, but not to overempha size that area. We should surround our whole program, Mr. Speaker, with a fitness program second to none.

It costs so little but does so much for their overall performance, increasing their total human perfor mance. Surrounded, Mr. Speaker, and connected with career information, so that as a student in grades 1, 2, 3, and on, I will know the relevance of trigonometry, algebra, or social studies and know I could do this or that with that, and [that] my motiva tion is so much stronger. Mr.

Speaker, if we keep these items in mind I'm sure with the contribution from those members in the Assembly who will contribute, the prime goal which is the individual and our family, our society, and our values, I'm sure that we will achieve what we want. Thank you. MR. TESOLIN: Mr. Speaker, any analysis of education should be preceded by a cursory examination of its historical perspective, a brief glance at the roots of educational development.

For if we were only to review the education system as it exists today in the province of Alberta without relating it to its historical progression and universal scope, we would undoubtedly be contributing little to the constructive criticism we are now participating in. Mr. Speaker, the powerful influence exerted by his tory on educational development as a necessary func tion of social evolution was also considered by the International Commission on the Development of Education established by the UN. Education is a natural characteristic of mankind. Its precise begin nings cannot be pinpointed.

But it was posited by UNESCO that it has contributed to the destiny of societies in all phases of their development. It has been the bearer of humanity's most noble deeds. It is inseparable from the greatest individual and collec tive exploits in human history, the course of which it reproduces with its strong and weak periods, its times of striving and times of despair, its harmonies and discord. If indeed education has been an integral part of man's development then by deduction education was a part of primitive society.

Of course we readily understand that no formal structure existed, that the learning experience was a symbiotic process; that is, the individual absorbed what he could from the func tions of his immediate environment. The major influence in primitive society was pro vided by the extended family and the roles which each member performed. This unstructured process also gave rise to the very traditional aspect of educa tion: that of passing established concepts from generation to generation. Mr.

Speaker, the institutionalization of the educa tional process was inevitably connected to the advan cement of written language. Its systemization resulted in a few members becoming familiar with and master of the symbols used to give a semblance of structure to the spoken word. It also entailed that these masters would be called upon to transfer their talent to some individuals, thus giving rise to the first pedagogical relationship and also to its original, sele ctive nature. This authoritarian tradition — the master/pupil — continued for the thousands of years of scholastic evolution.

The Greco-Roman aristocratic conception confirmed its acceptance for the benefit of an elite minority. The advancement of education was literally sus pended in medieval Europe. The onus for preserving the educational standards common at that time was left almost entirely on the church. Monastic seclu sion guaranteed that education would remain the privilege of a minority of society. The Renaissance was the major impetus for the rise of western civilization, tearing away the restric tive nature of monastery schools and opening up new horizons for the promotion of education.

The coinci dent invention of the printing press has to be one of the most important events affecting the historical development of education. The printed word and its influence on cultural achievement and advancement is a pivotal point in the history of education. The rudiments of universal education we

Document details

Collection	Alberta — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	19770516
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	L18 S3 19770516 1430 01 han.pdf
Language	en
Format	json
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ca26b99d90c7c231be2e911b4803ed05a33730cf

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