, ,. PROViNCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 31 4th. Session ~tb. GeneraJ Assembly VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY. APRIL 10,1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURAB .I,.E GEORGE W. CLARKE

aptl..l. 1U, 1~/U Tape 11403 The House met at J:en P.N. MR. SPEAKER: Order. Pa~c 1 "·' .. ~fR. J. C. CROSBIE: Xr. Speaker, in con~ection with the ,Question of Privilege that I raised yesterday, that one member of this hen. House~ namely the hen. the Prernier had commited a breach of privilege of the House by libeling another m~mber of the House, namely myself. I want to inform Your Honour that in order to place the evidence before him, I am obtaining a transcript of the remarks in question mane by the hon. the !remier on Thursday morning's VOCM conversations with Premier program.

And that I will have that transcript for him next ~!ondav hopefullv, so that you Your Honour, will then be able to decide whether it ~'as a prima facie case of breach of privile_;:e. In addition Your Honour, I want to drat.r to the attention of Your Honour, and theHouse the fact that this breach of privilege, this contempt for the rules of the House was repeated again this mornin~ by the hen. the Premier on the same Radio program O'!'I"Radio Station VOCi, when he again stated that one hon. member of the House, namelv m\·self, hated another hen. member of the House, namely the hon. the Premier. MR.

SPEAKER: May I inter1ect if the hon. member will permit? That as he is going to r~!s: the ~uestion en ~~day, hi~ evidenc~ and his case can be ~resented at that particular time, and I had intended to rule a,little later in the day, that the :-lotion that was su~gested on yesterday on the face of ~t, there was not sufficient evidence even to consider it as a ~rima facie ease. So the lvhole matte:-, the han. member is now 1-1ithi.n the rules of. raisin~ the question at the earliest opportunir:v and he wilr be ahle to raise his point on ¥.onday, if he zo desires. That should end the matter for not~. ~IR.

CROSBIE: Thank you Hr. Sneaker. HON. E. ~!. ROBERTS (Hinister of Health): ~fr. Sneaker, on a point:· of privilege, may I also add that I am taking ~ten~ to obtain transcripts of statetr.ents made by the hen. member for St. John'~ !Jest on r~dio Station CJON at 1:15 today in their Ne~1s Bulletin ~o;hic:h, and I quote: He said that the hon. Premier is sick, sick, sick. End of quote. And the context clearly implied that the "sick, sick, sick" was psychiatrict. I will suhmit this evidence Hr.

Speaker at the snme tiT:le, and mv suhmission Your Jlonour at that time will be that if there i~ a breach on one side, there will be an equnl 1793

·- April 10, 1970 Tape /Jli03 l'aJ?,e 2 bre~ch by the hen. ~~mbcr on the other side. HR. SPEAKER: Is this simply a notice that the hen. memher intends to raise this question on ~fonday? }tR. RORF.RTS: Yes }!r. Speaker. HR. CROSBIE: I would move in that connection Hr. Speaker, that unless the Bon. -v.inister is making his ~otion notl, he t-rill be out of time on !>!onday, and with reference to his remarks, I might refer him to the remarks Thursday by the hen. the Premier who introduced the sickness. MR. SPEAKER: I have said that the matter is now closed.

Roth hon. ~cntlemen have raised their points of privilege, and thev consequently will not be out of time on Nonday, and the matter can be gone into again t~hen they will be afforded the opportunity of providinp, a prima facie case in support of the breach of privilege. RON. J. R. S~t<~,.LU;clrm ('Premier): !lr. Soeaker, unless the hon. gentlet1an is on a point of privilege. -: _ ~IR. T. BURGESS: Nr. Speaker, I would like to brin11; to the attention of this bon. House a matter which dealing with the office soace which I presently hold in this buildin~. It can be described as nothing else but a telephone booth.

It is do~.<"tl on the third floor in the Legi:;lative I.ibrary. There is absolutely no privacy there Hr. Speaker. There is no room to entertain many of the constituents which call to see me. In order for me to adequately do the duty which I was elected to perform in this hen. Rouse, it should be the provision of adequate office space should be provided. Also ~!r. Speaker, the matter of having no secretarial help whatsoever. Instructions have been given to various secretaries in this building, not to type anvthing for IIIYSelf, and .

I; believe the instructions were given when the hen. member for Humber East was occuoyin~ similar office space to what I am occuoyin~ now. And we do not have the availability of secretarial heln is non-existent. And Mr. Speaker, I do not think that this is oroper treatment for any member of this House. I think that provision should be made hv the minister responsible for looking after the conveniences of the members who are elected to this august body, and I just wanted to brin~ this matter to the attention of this House. MR.

SPEAKER: I would also like to bring to the attenticn of the hen. member \lho just sat dotm, that this is not a point of priviles::e. It is a personal 17n4

April, 10, 1970 Tape &403 Page 3 grievance. I"nis has been gone into oerore, and personal !!rie•1ances should be raised in another matter other than as a matter of privilege. It is not a matter of personal privilege. In my opinion it is a grievance that has to be brought before the House and the a~pronriate committee of the House, .. but not as a point of Privilege. I can sympathize ~ith the hon. member, when he says that he has no place to entertain his visitors from liis district. There are a lot of us in exactly the same nosition, and I svmpathize with him to the full, but it is not a noint of privilege. }fr.

Soeaker, I am very glad to i.nfo;m the House that I J··-· have received the follm.dng telegram fro~:~ the Hon. Donald Jamieson, or fTnm the special assistant to the Ron. Minister of Transport at Ottawa. It is addressed to me and it says the followinp, statement was issued by hon. Donald Jamieson today. "The Government of Canada has agreed to construct the dock facilities at Come-by-Chance to be used by the net~ oil refinery to be built at that location." This was announced by the hon. Donald Ja!!tieson, Minister of Transport on behalf of the Minister of Puhl:l.c Harks, the hon.

Arthur Lang, and the ~inister of Regional Economic Expansion, the hon. John Marchand. Mr. Jamieson said that the wharf is estimated to cost in excess of $16 million. It will be built under an agreement providing for the recovery of the Federal invest~ent throup.h rental and user charges over a number of years. The Minister cf Transport said that the decision to construct the wharf is· subject to the successful completion of all other negotiations relating to the refinery pro.ject, under tents and conditions outlined by the Government of Newfoundland in its neQ:otiations t·dth the Federal Government.

He also stated that the wharf construction will help considerably to alleviate the unemployment problem caused by the phasing do~~ of the Argentia Naval Station. Arrangements t!ill be made to give pr .. derence to former b<J.se workers when hiring gets under wav. And it is sip,ned Eric Facev, Special Assistant to the ~!inister of Transnort. I thour,ht that the House i"ould be very glad to hear that announcement. HR. CROSBIE: I would like to ask for several exolanations in connection with that ministerial statement. MR. S:·IALLWOOD: I have none. I will none. -17!)5 ..

April 10, 1970 Tape ~403 Pa~e 4 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member ha5 asked for an eXPlanation. The hon. the Minister who made the statement has said that he has no e~nlanation to make and he will give none. There ic no debate permitted, as every hon. member knows. MR. CROSBIE: ~lr. Soeaker, I submit that I am entitled to make my remarks and ask for an explanation in accordance with the rules, and if the hon. the Premier is so iF;norant that he will then not make any explanation or ~omment, that is another matter. But I am entitl~d under the rules I submit Hr.

Speaker, as a chief of an organized !(roup to ask for an exolanation. And to ask sev~ral questions. If then the hon. the Premier wants not to answer them, that is then his privile~e. But I should be entitled to make my few remarks or ask for the explanation first. MR. SPEAKER: I do not want to go into this every sin~le time that a statement · is made. I said yesterday, an hen. minister makes a ministerial statement before the House. We have never been in the habit of having any debate or any comment on the statement which has been given, not since 1949.

And "tDlder the rule!> as ve have read fr'.:!m Beau::he~ne, '"t~c leader or the c!l.ief of a group or the Leader of the Opposition may ask questions, but there is to be no debate, and he can .ask a question and the only remarks that he can make is in connection with his question t.Ohen they say-few reMarks." The remarks are to nade the way I interpret it, and I SUP.~est that 1 mar be right or I may.be wrong, but my

interpretation of it is th~s. That the remarks that he is allowed to make is only sufficient to make his question intelligible. I said this yesterday. t~e brou;.:ht it up before. Now I should not have to repeat this every single day that an hon. minister makes a ministerial statement. If the hen. member would just ask his question, then he will get his reply which is not subject to comment. ~\. 1795

MR. CROSBIE: I <l:il quite in accordance with your ruling. All I ""ar.t to do, ,Mr. Speaker, is ask the questions that we are percitted to a$k for the explanation and in that conr.ect.;on, there co;nes to mind immedi:1tely, Mr.

Speaker - I wonder, if the hon. the Premier could clarify this for us, on further thought on the matter, as to whether the announcet::ent is being made through the Department of Public Wor}:s of 'Canada or uhcther the funds for the wharf and the ~harf itself is to be provided under the Depart~~nt ofRsgional and Economic Expansion of Cao<!.da~ Both ministers >·Jere mentioned in the statement he jast made, and I think it would be of in~e~est to the House to know under which depart~ent that is eo~ing and if it is corning, Hr.

Speaker, under the Department of Regional and Econocic Expansion, docs the fact that $16 million froo that program is to be spen!: on the \·rharf at Come-by-chance, cut down in an:vay other funds that will be ~adc available under that program for the Province of Newfoundland this yezr? HR. SK!J.L~·IOOD: Mr. Speaker, I have no comment. ~~ile I am on my feet, I wish to announce also that I had conversation today vith the hoo.

Do~al:i Jamieson and learned with great joy from him - a joy that will be shared by the fishcrnen of this Province that under legislation introduced into the Pa=liam~nt of Canada, the Strait of Belleisle, the Cabot Strait and all of the Gulf of St. Lawrence enclosed within those tvo straits are to be bar~cd absolutely and completely to all fishing vessels, other than Canz~i~n bcttc~s.

Th~t is to say all non-Canadian fishin~ vessels and that in the second plcce the ~clve mile limit that has been sought by all our fisher~en and inceed by all Newfoundlanders is to be enforced and that the tuclvc ll'ile l:llrcit is to extend out from a base line and the base line being the line dra:m from hc.-.dlancl to headland. A line drawn from Cape Bonavista to E~~calieu - the tvcl'e ~i!cs would be, t'·rel ve ::U.les outside that line and outs ide eJ 1 the base lines. The question ~f g!"andfat her rights is still tor.r.cnting, bl!t it vill gradually be settled. Notv, ~r.

Speaker, fin ally the q"estion of enforcing. The :1-linister of Transport, l\e,vfoundland' s :·linister in the Car::\dian GC''I."Crnr",ent, already has control, administrative control of Can<'-da's coast cuarc!. Pc here in this House believe that the coast guar~ is not enough to patrol the waters and enforce the b·relve ndle:licit. There arc also in Canadi\, fishery patrol vessels under the }!inister of Fisheries. There a~e also hycl.rcgrephic ships under so;:-,e minister.

I do not kno•r. t.re feel in thi1; !!ocsc th;::t the fis~ern:en­ we feel in this Covernmer.t that the fisher.:: ~ n of K'e,.'founrtl;md t!Oulc.1. want 1.7!;7

April lOth., 1970 Tape no. 404. Fage 2 Mr. Jamieson, Nel.lfcur.dland's llinisterin the Canadian Cabinet, "Who already has ad~nistrative control of the coast guard shoul~also be given administrative control over all fisherj patrol vessels in addition, over hydrographic ships, all Canada's hydrographic ships and all Canadian official vessels that float, including the Royal Canadian Navy. That all Government ot-med vessels in Canada be put under the ad~~nistrative control of Canada's Minister of Transport, Mr.

Jamieson, Ne"Wfoundland's Minister and used by him to patrol the waters, to enforce the ~~elve ~~leflioit and if this is done and the , rule is enforced, it will be one of the greatest blessings e\"cr - I say "ever'' ti:f ' b~ conferred upon the fish.:rmen of Newfoundland. Finally, ~!r. Speaker, under this he2.ding, I 'l;.'ant to pay great tribute to the Minister of Fisheries of Newfoundland for the incessant and endless efforts made by him on visits to Otta<r.a and telephone calls and in other ways to er.pedite the introduction of this historic legislation. Mr. Speaker, it is with very great regret •• MR.

CROSDIE: Mr. Speaker, if that ministerial statement is finished, I would like to proceed in accordance withthe rules. _MR. SNALLWI){,D: Mr. Speaker, I wish to proceed. I wish to announce the death -I wish-to announce the death- I wish to announce the death •• MR. SPEAKER: Is the hon. ·;=he:::..:. c_ raising a !'oint of Order? ~CROSBIE: My Point of Order is that the minute the Premier has completed a ministerial statement, and that I wish to proceed in accordance vith the rules. I have an explanation I want to put.

I therefore, uould like to proceed . as has been agreed under the rules, I can do. l'Erst, of course, Hr. Spea..l<:er, ~re ere hcarti!y , in .acc:crd ~<Zlth\·_ this move and are delighted to hear the nc~rs ••• _r.R. S~~LWCOD: Is that a question? MR. CROSBIE: Hr. Spe<lker, I do not intend to be interrupted and bullyed by the members on the other side. The question is coming.

First of all as I am entitled to r~ke a rema~k, I am saying first that we are thorourhly in accord with this move and welcome it and welcome the move of the Government cf Canada, not the Government of N<!wfoundland, the move of the C-overn=nt of Canada .>nd my question is, !'lr. Speaker,- ~ do not need to refer to Beauchesne. This point will keep coming up. I \-rill refer to it later. ~!y question at the !!lament, Hr. Speaker, is this: th'at the hon. the Premier '!.·ho 1798

made this announcegent on behalf of the Gove =nment of Canada did not it as from some tice today or some future date? What is the date, when this great ev~nt goes into effect1 MR. SHALLHOOD: Mr. Speaker, I have no comment. I wish, while I am on my feet, to announce the regrettable death of a great Newfoundlander in the ... , ... person of Captain John Blackrrvre, member of the . order of the British E~pire at Port Union yesterday. Captain John Blackmore died yesterday at the ag~ of ninety-four.

At a very early age, he began fishing on the co~st of Labrador and at the age of seventeen was in co~nd of his c~~ fishing sc~ooner on that great coast. H 1!:3Y be that the late Captain John Blackmnre, M.B.E. was one of th~ youngest Newfoundlanders ever to be in co~and of his o"~ schooner. He fished on the coast of Labrador and conducted coasting vessels in Newfoundland for over sixty years, and in addition to that was also a successful sealing captain. He had reached a wonderful age, ninety-four and in his death, Newfo=dland has lost one of her greatest sons.

The funeral at Port Union vill be held on Sunday and the Govarnment will be represented by the hon. Minister ~ithout Portfolio, the meiber for Labrador So-:J!:!:i. Mr. Speaker, ~hile I am on my fe~t, I should like to extend a very cordial welcome to some ~·enty-seven boys who are visiting us tod3y fro~ the Pleasantville Boys' Hoce in the gallery today, under their principal, Mr. Earnest Anthony and the assistant teacher, !!r. Helvin Oldford. These boys are paying their first visit to the House and I. l-Tant them to kno\< that they are extremely velcome here. We hope they will enjoy their visit this afternoon.

We hope that they ~y learn something of how the House of Assembly is operated, ho\< it operates, hm: it conducts its busincss7 Who knows that some day in the future, these boys, some of them will grow up and become interested in public life and take a

part in public life, an active part and first as voters, of course. Then perhaps as political workers and campaigners and finally as candidates for ele~ti~n to this House and vc oay have the pleasure one day of seeing sc ~ e of them sitting here as members of the House of Assembly. We made it. They should be able to make it. They are as smart as we ever were, so it is only a matter of hard work and application and, of course, if it comes to getting in here, it is also a ~~tter of being with the 17!)9

--r- _.,.. • ·-' right party. They will decide for themselves which is the right party. I would not dare to advise th~m on that. The Leader of the Opposition :l'dght. He now, I am sure, will join vith mo:: in this expression of cordial welcome to these boys and if we do not agree on anything else, then c~cry day here, the Leader of the Opposition and I arc in perfect unison, tuo hco=ts that beat as one, two minds that function together.

You t.~ould think tho~ ·.t-:c never bad a single thought to separatE: us, that l·:e are in perfect agrcc!'!:!nt once every day, when "e welcome these younu Ne\·!fct•.ndlandcrs to the Cha!I'be~. MR. MUP.PHY: Like the "Eobsy 'Il.'ins." }!R. S~fALLI{OOD: I did not hear that. ~m. ~lURPHY: We are like the "Bobsy THins." MR. Sl!ALLWOOD: Like the "Bobsy l'wir:s." One is a little more bopsy than the other.

Anyway the whole point is that if we never agree on anything else, we do agree on this that ve love to see young Kel·rfcundlancers col!lc in here and it is inspiring - it reminds us in case t:e needed reminding, it reminds us of what we are 1-:orking for in this House. He are working for the yo1..!ng people of the Province - the people who are going to own it shortly and be responsible for it soon and have the tremendous task of building a rrcat:zr province than t~ey find, just as we are trying tc clc.

He arc trying to build a greater Ne,...foundland than it t>'as, "lo!hcn t·!e found it. t·:e v:!ll l!!ove out in t},e course cf ti::.e. I will not be here more than another fifteen or eighteen years. I ar. sure of that. I willnot rcm."l1.n any longer that. The hon. ge.:ttlernan expresses doubt about that? l•fuat is he praying for I wonder. }!r. Speaker? lie says he is praying for me. I am getting scared. I would like to know the secret nature of that~rayer.

In all events ~e acree on this that ve are glad to see these young people here, and I knct·7 noH that he will express the senti=ent 9f his party, to.'!len I sit cot-m. MR. Am< }nJRPliY: }lr. Speaker, I would like first of all to join in the expression of S)""l::;Jathy in the death of a tremendous ~'etvf6t•ndlander, Captain Blackmore. He tvas a great pioneer boat builder, fishe=.en, l!'.an -who built his OYn boats to go to the seal fishery. I thir:k, Port ~nion, -was a much richer town to have such a ~n as Captain Blackmore.

He had his 01~ boat building industry :here and I am sure that he contributed a let to the econony of th.'!.t beautiful little tmm and thrct1 gh them to the economy of 1:ewfoundland. I a:11 sure Ye all on this side join in the eY.prcssions 1800

April lOth., 1970 Tape no. 404 Page 5 of sympathy to the family of the late Captain Blackmore. In joini~~ ~th the Premier in welcoming the boys from the Pl~asantville Boys' Home, I can only say just about uhat I 7ay :pretty well every day follo-.rlng the Premier. }.s. he said, our hearts beat as one in this t-Iclccme and I am sure that my is throbbing, ~hen t~e Premier mentions a subject that is so pleasant for us to hear over here. It is not very often we bear them, bet today in welcoming these boys. 1/e ~~c very happy to welcome the boys.

I bppe it is a regular sessicn that is not abbreviated through any act of faith or anything else and that they ~ill get the benefit of the three hours, if they wish to stay here : I hope that they will watch and they will obsen·e and if they are on this side here, n:ove over and have a look at the beauties on this side. I think that is only fair and see how the potential government is working, not the Government in power, but the potential government in a few short months time. So again, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to welcome these boys on behalf of all of us on this side and I am sure all the membersof the House entrust their stay will be pleasant and that they vill come back aga1n ~n the not too distant future to see us. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, may I add vry otm welcome to those of the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition to the boys who are here today from the Eoys' Home and TraininB School at Pleasantville. Most of these young people, Mr. Speaker, that I see in the gallery tod~y are very real friends of mi~e as a result of numerous occasions that I have visited them in their home.

As a member of the audience at the opening night of the musical carousel presented at the Arts and Culture Centre last November, }!r. Speaker, I ~as particularly thrilled to note that eight of the extras were from our Boys'· Pleasantville Home eo~unity. This is the first 1801 ,

:1-ffi.. NEARY: This is the first opportunity I have had to congratulate them for takine

part in such a w2ll directed and colourful production. It is our House, and I wa.'lt to extend a personal \·~elcome to them and to Hr. Ernest Anthony their principal, a:td ~!r. Helvin Oldford the assistant teacher. MR. CROSBIE: Hr. Speaker, I would first like to say that ~rc join in extending our s~pathy to the rela:ivcs of.the late Capt. Black~ore of Port Union. I am sorry to hear of his death, and join in the tribute that is being to him. I vould also like to welcome on be~ald of the Independent Liberal Group, the boys from t~e pleasantville Boys Ho~e. There have been a lot of visitors Y.:r.

Speak2r to the House this session. They are participating in the game see th~ Government t>hile you can because it will not be here much longer, and we welco!:!e thel:l. I notice th2t the hon. the Premier }lr. Speaker said that they hoped that they would learn something while they were here, I hope they can learn r.ore t!:lan ~o:e are learning through the questions we are asking in the House, as is seen today in the replies we got to some of the questions that ~ere asked. We so::r:etimes think Mr.

Speaker on this side of the House, when the bon. the P=e~icr gets up to deliver a ~cssuge at the b~5inning of the sesoiun, we are expecting that very shortly there ll'.ight be a get \rell message delivered by the hon. the Pr~ier. \Je like to see these groups come from the various schools, and I notice Mr. Speaker, that soEet~5QS they do not stay her~ very long, and I think it might be more interesting for them if they wqre prcsentec:with Order Papers and if sc:ne, and evEn a memorandum to explain, or some notes to eY.plain the functions of the House.

There used to be last year, or the year before there used to be a seating plan of the House of ,~sembly distributed to suests in the ~ gallery sho•ing where all the hon. members sat, anu their nar-es. I do not know why that !:las not been doue this year, it maybe because the seats have been changed around in the House that that is not done this year. But something should be done I think Mr. Speaker if we are going to make it worth­ while for the beys and girls cocing here to visit to give them some idea of the rules and to give tlu:;e Order Papers so that they will have something to 1802

Ap,ril l•' .iG, Tape 4u~. raG~ 2 -- apb follow in the busine!>s of the House. HR. Bl.'RGESS: ?-lr. Spea!:er, nobo<.iy can deny the fact that I <!.tl the leader of my group, actually t~is . is my shadow Cabinet here. MR. : CROSBIE! _, Did you notify the Speai~er? }ffi, BL~GESS: 1 would like to e:•tend a -.:ord of cordial welcon:e to the boys from t!:le Pleasantville B0)' 1 s Hot.1e, and 1 along with the other membErs, I sincerely hope ti1at ti1ey learn ;;or.~ethinr. today.

There is one tlling that I would like to relate to tilese boys, I wuuld like them to keep it mind, and I have to tell a brief s::c•ry to make my point, anJ it is story !·!r. Speaker of fifty years ai'.o• Deca1.1se tl1cse boys are "-'ltncssing greatness in action in van.ous dcgrH:s of conrse.

The greatest degree of course is on that side of the rtouse, bu~ I vould like them to .keep in mind the story about the tl.'o boll we~vils, who are little insects whlcn attack the crops in Souti1 America, the cotton, and t:1e two boll weevils decided to emigrate and they left, they left their particular pad and they went abroad, and one of them became completely and utterly successful. Everythin~ he put · his little paw to was successful, and he became a ,;reat success, smnetl\in>; on the style of the, shall I say the_ hon. the Prepier? ile was an 2.bsolute success.

The other one unfortunately never made any head~ay in life at all, he became·a cpmplete nonenity. That was fifty years aRo Mr. Speaker, but despite the fact that one was famous and one 1-1as a· complete noncnity even today they talk about the lesser of l"-'o weevils. . ~ith that in mind Mr. Speaker, I would like these young boys to ~eep:.th.:!.t . in mind that verying degrees of success matter very little in later life, but I 'I>'Ould like to extend that cordial \lord of ..relcome to these boys. MR.

SPEAKER: !fuile the House is still in the mood of passing on their greet- ings and words of welcome to various groups in the P.ouse, or visitors to the House today, may I be permitted to r,et into the act. It was only once before that I have had the opportt.mity of doing this, and I would like tdth the indulgence of the House to join with the other me~bers not only in welcoming these groups that are here to <.lay, but another group and my. impartiality may be brought to question 1o:hen t!ley know• ,,,hich group it is.

But I would like on my own behalf, and on beh;;lf of the rnembers of the House to t.;elcome to:the Chamber ti1is aft~rnoon his \~ orship the ;:ayor, and four cuuneillors together 180:3

with the clerk of the To1.·n Council of Carbonc.:u t.~ho are here on business today in the House, in co:.nection vith the business of the Council. These civic mindec! citizens togethc:: tJith the others are ah,<~ys most welcome and uc are very happy to see them. PRESl:."NTI~G l'ET1Tim:s: BON. W.J.KEOUGH C·!iniste-r of L2bour): H-r. Speaker, I beg leave to p~:esent a petition on behalf of the residents of St. Gcroges District. The pr~ycr of the petition is that the buildings on t.~hat vas the site of the Cott2zc Hospital at Stephenville Crossing shoulrl be put t~ use as a ho~e for the ~gcd.

There a-re two things about this petition;;~!lich I should make special l!'.cntion. First of all it bears the sif,!l<!tures of 4! substantial number of the residents of every community of St. Georges District, a•~d scct1ndly in total it be;-.rs the signatures of 1,904 residents of the district. Now I have won elections in St. Gcoq~es ·tdth fct-rer votes than that and so it might well be that tacre is a message for somebody in this petition. It seems to me }lr. Speaker, that ti1is petition is the petition of angry people and I believe they arc angry c.bout tl.'O things.

I"irst of all the inconvenience to vhich they have been :>ut by the closinr, out of the Cottage Hospital facility which they had for over thirty years, and secondly because they believe that it was the closing out of the cottage hospital that rut the finishing touch to upsetting the rather tenuous economic viability of Stephenville Crossing. There o;ere other factors that contributed, the construction of a by-pass road, and the removal of sever.,_l other services. In any case the people of St.

Georges district reacted strongly to . the closing out of the cottage hospital at Stephenville Crossing, and it still rankles, and hence this petition for another facility in its place. Not the constructioa of the lb~rboard mill at Stephenville,. and the building up of an industrial complex there will r.:ore than com?ensate and restoc-c the economic viability of Stephenville Crossing. But it has hcen rather a long wait and the peo;>le of St.

Georges !listric:: are determined to do all that they can to have another establishment at Stephenville Crossing to fill the gan that was left by the phasin .g out of t:he cottage hospital there, and in that determination they have my full and co~~lete support. I move Hr. Speaker, that this petition be received and referred to the depart~ent to vhich it relates. 1804

XR. A.J .MUr.Pl!Y (Le~der of the Oppositio:1): Hr. Speaker, I support that petition. !laving spent a great d~al of tit::e around that area ~o.·hen I was trave:l!:-.g - . clUU location and I think it vould be a wonderful asset to the west coast.

It is :l.n a strategic positioil there, roads cast, ...-est and from the Port au Port Peninsula coming up there just rig~t in the centre, and if at .all possible I certainly would like to see the Ministcr.'s 'l-7ish or petition come true, as I said earlier I believe it would be a tremendous asset· to the older folks on the west coast vho have to be brought here all the Hay to the east coast. It would be nearer for visiting for their folks, and I whole heartcdly eupport that petition. HR. WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, let me say frankly first that in the a~scnce of the chief of this g~oup I am not even speaking as an assistance chief. I have some knowledge of this area, and some str9ng connections in my background with this particular area and a fair knm-Iledge of the particular problem to which the Uinister has referred. It goes even a little deeper than just having a replacement for the hospital. There is a bit more than that to it as the minister has indicated I am sure on other occasions.

He was the one I believe 1.-ho first voiced tremendous concern about' the, to quote him " rate of Stepbenville Crc=s:!.ng•• I believe t~o~ '\..·as his phra£e. This is l,•hat has hapnended. I ar.t not sure that it was necessarily, totally avoidable, it may or may not have been but that has been the net effect of what has happened. The by-pass road as he has indicated has been built.

The C.N .R. facility has been r.ore and 1:10re moved ir:.to the Stephemrille area, and in an. effort to build up Stephenville, and to replace in Stephenville scme of the employment lost through the closing of the base some of the other things that existed in Stephenville Crossing such . as the hospital, and the rail~ay facilities and other ser>•ices and facilities, Canadian ~:ational Telegraph is another example, and there are nur.lerous other things that have been moved to give core stability to the tot-m of Stephenville. That I believe ~r.

Speaker, is wrong unless the whole to~~ is going to be moved. because the net effect is that the economic viability has been taken away. I think perhaps it is una•-oidable that the hospital be r.toved because there was an exceptionally good facility located in Stephenville at the time. but there tvas also a firm u;uiertaking that there would be something in St!!phenville Crossing to replace the economic loss. l·?hen one has any familiarity 1805

April 10, 1970, TApe 405, Page 5 -- apo at all vith the community, you c~n do a comparison ~lith vhat it ~1as like before. and \-·hat it has been like since with these losses, not just the hospital, but the C.~;. T. , railway and other things that hc.ve been affcc·ted. One can see the effect on that cor:nur:ity. It is,a sc.d thing to t:atch any community, even if you do not have a close connection to it as I do, I creu up there from the ti~e I ~as seven years old, even if you do not have a close ex>nnection it is a sad thing to ~:atch it rapitlly become a welfare com!llunity.

I do not have any re<:1dy ma<le answers, nne! I am sure the Govern!:'(!nt do not have any or they would have implemented them a long tirr:e ago, but I think it is something ~orith ~:hich all members of the House migl:t thin!~ about and concern the:::sel ves. tlot necessarily just Stephenville Crossing alone, this is quite likely to happen in the future particularly ~•ith this ~P£E program and it being implereented in the eight designated areas ~e are likely to create a lot more such areas. If this ..i.s g.oinr, to h2ppcn, the::i perhaps t·re should have a gross move.

Clean out the corm:tunity, because it it \'ery sad to watch a place rapidly beco1:1e nothing more than a ~1elfare community •. I give r:JY w:1ole hearted support the the petition Hr. Speaker, and ask that we consider the matter bcyo~d what is asked for in the pe~iticn, and consider the ~hole problem and try and fi~d a cure for the problen rather that just this particular sy1:1ptom. MR. BARBOUR: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave Sir, to present a petition from the people living i."l the follmJing co=unities and I might add that there are almost 1,000 na1:1es signed to this petition.

The correct number is 990 names and the petition comes from the follot-ring communities; Princeton, Southern Bay, S•.<eet Bay, Charle5ton, Hinter Brook, Jet!lestmm, Brooklyn, Canning's Cove, Lethbridge, Bu."lyan' s Cove, :-!us~ravctot.-n, ;-:or ley's Siding, Portl.~nd and Bloomfield, fourteen co~~unities in all. Hr. Speaker, the prayer of the people's petition is and if I may be permitted I >1ould like to quote.

"Hhereas the Centr.ll High School :-:usgravcto>m, and Feeder Elementary Schools located in Princeton, Lethbridge, Hussravetmm, Bloomfield, Bunyan's Cove, and Canning's Cove have a total enrollment of 1,253 pupils and the medical persac.nel are not provided in spite of the school board's efforts. ~ncrcas no pr2c:icing doctor can be had for the area,

whereas adjacent and equivilant school areas have either a doctor or a nurse or both to administer to the ::1cdical needs c f the -people, . ~- : here as a quali tied 1806

.. a s chool n u:-sc , therefo re you.r petitioners, citiz ens of the follot:ing communities thereby pray t h~t you will take steps to insu re t ha t a school nurse be appointee immedia tel y to care for the health of the sc.'tool chHdr en in t he area , and all petitioners are in dui::y bound, and uill ever pray. Hr. Speaker, i t is inde e d dcplor iliJl e that these 1,200 or mo~e pupils have no person qiUilified t o ca re for their heal th needs ••.••••••• •• 1807

MR. BARBOUR: No doctor can b~ had for the area, but Sir, and I want to be careful in making this state,ent, but sir, a qualified nurse has heen found who is willing to ser.;e in this area. And every effort will be made to accommodate such a ~erson so far as a clinic is concerned by the people in tr.e areas I have !:!i!ntioned.

The!"efore, Sir ~ all that remains is for the Government to approve salary allocation a~d in ~11 fairness to the people of my district, I cannot see such a s~all amount of money as vould be required to pay a nurse's salary should be allocated to deprive so many healthy young Ne1o1foundlanders of the oro!'er cedi cal care. I am certain ho•·~ew~r, that the Government will leave no effort unturncd. I am certain that th~ r.overnment will give careful consideration, and I too must viRourously support this petition.

And I ask the de?art~ent concerned that they lose no no time, because this is very essential to the youth in the area C:oncerned. Nr. Speaker, I wholeheartedly support the petition, end 1 ask that it be received and referred to the deoartment to which it relates. HR. H. COLti:-IS: Hr. S!Jeaker, I rise to supoort this petition 'lo:hich has just been presented to this House by the member for Ronavista South. And I will g~ through the 5ettlements in reverse.

The people of Bloomfield, Portland, Morley's Sidin~. }fuss;:ravetot:n, Bunyan's Cove, Lethhridj!e, Canning's Cove, Brookline, James tO'-"n, :Jinterhrook, Charles ton, SHeet Bay, Southern Bay, and Princeto~, certainly are deservi:rig of better medical services than that which is now provided in that area. It might be noteworthy to note Sir that the ~ember for Fo~o, the Hon. Minister of Hip,hHays, presented a similar petition in this hon. Ro~se a short tine ago, conccrninr, the need for nursing services for the schools in the Gander Ray area, uhich is a

section of his ridin~. And I would hope Sir, that the Government will take note of those tva peti tio":ls, real izin~ the significance, the im»ort<!nce of this service. ~~d that before this hon. House onens ar.ain next year, they will have those services provided in the areas mentioned. MR. ROBERTS: '!r. Speaker, if I may be allo'~<red a "ord in reference to the Motion moved by my hon. friend fro1:1 Ronavistn South, 1ust spol,en to by the bon. me~ber for the district of Gander.

The oroblem of recruitinr, a doctor froo Hw;gravetown is certainly both serious and not net.~· to ~c. ~fy hon. friend has bee1;1 in touch with me on :nan:r occasions. 1ie have been tryinr, to recruit a doctor, or help to recruit a doctor from that a :rca. ~ol< that the hen. ~808

April 10, 1970 Tape ~406 Page 2 gentleman has been told by hi~ constituents Sir, that a nurse is available in the area for the purposes of public health t-~ork. I have checked into this, and I think that we woiJld be in a position in the Government, subject of CDurse to th.e house granting supply which ''e will request in course to retain the services of the lady in question.

It.-does not say that the nurse is a lady but I assume she is a lady. l\'ell if the lady is available for the duties in assuming as I am sure is correct that she has the qualifications and vill take the necessary trainint>; courses, we t·7ould be ah le to rctatn he,r Sir. I vould assu:ne this would probably be, \vell maybe there is still a sucmer term to come either from the rest of this year, or beginning the first of September. l~e will have to work that out. l!e do have about ninety­ five or a hundre-d such nurses around the Province 'lr.

Speaker, and it is always a pleasure to P,et more if they provide a most valuable service. MR. BAR!! OUR: Thank you Hr. ~11 nister. MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that this petition be received and referred to the department to which it relates. Those in favour ··aye'', contrary "nay", Carried. Notice of ~otion: RON. L. R. CURTIS {Hinister of Justic2): ~!r. Speaker, I !tive notice that I vill on tomorro~ move that Standing Orders · one to ei~ht he striken out and the follo~in~ substituted therefore.

(1) In all cases not provided for hereafter or by sessional or bv other orders their usuages of the House of Core::-.ons of Canada as enforced at the time shall be fcllmJed so far as 'thev may be applicable to this P.ouse.

(2) The time for the meetin!!: of the House is at 2:3() o'clock in the afternoon of each sitting day. £nd if there be not a quorum present bv 2:45 of the clock, ~r. Speaker shall adjourn the House until the usual hour of the next sittin~ day. ~~en the House rises on Friday it stands adiourned unless othenJise ordered until the follo~ing the }~onrlav.

(3) The presence of at least fourteen members of the House, not includin!:' '!r. Speaker, shall be necessarv to constitute a w.!etin~?; of the House for the exercise of i t.s pm~crs. ~·:'henever l·'r. Speaker adjourns the Hou"e for ~ant of a qunrum the time nf adinurnmcnt and the names of the n:ernhcrs then nresent shall be inserted in the iournat. (4) a. Any t:~ember may direct the ~neaker's attention to the fact that there is not a quorum present. '·'hen attentio~ has bean directe~ to the fact that there

is not a quorum pr~!ient, the Sne.1.ker shall vait for ten minute<;, so as tc enable members to rcasse~blc. If at the expiry of that p~riod ~ quoru~ is not present, he shall decl:1re without question put that the !louse stands adjourned until the next sittin~ as nrovidcd for by these Standinr. nrdcrs. This procedure shall be duly recorded in the journal. (

h) A member need not remain in the Ho!.lse aftE'r giving notice t~at a 'quorum is not present. (

c) The only occasion when the Speaker takes the initiative in this matter is at 2:30 o'clock or at 7:3!) o'clock after the intcrnission. If he does not see a quorum he refrains from callin~ the members to order and asks the Clerk to count the House. If there are not fourteen members present he declares without question put that the House st<Jnds ad1om:ned until the next sitting. This procedure also shall he duly recorded in the journal. (

d) while the House is being counted the- doors remain open and members can time come in during the whole occupied by the countin~. (5) lf notice is taken by a member that there is not a quorum present in the Committee of the Whole, the Chairman follot-75 the course outlined in Standing Order for (

a) if he ascertains that fourteen members are not nresent, he leaves the Chair. The Rouse is resumed and on his report: the Speaker tvait-s ten minutes at which the Clerk counts the House, anri if there then not be a quorum, he must adjourn the P.ouo,~ forth• .. dth. \,ben the Serp.:e;;nt-at-1\rms announces a messenger from the Lieutenant-Governor, Hr. Speaker sh:1ll take the Chair Hhether there is a quorum present or not.

(7) If at the hour of six o'clock P.~!. ~xccpt on Friday the business of the House is not conclurled, ~!r. Snca!~cr shall leave the Chair until 7:30 P.!-!. At the hour of 6 o'clock P.:·!. en friday, . Mr. Speaker adjourns the !louse without 'lUCStion put. The House then stands adjourned until ~·!onday follmdng. If at the hour of 6 o ·clock r .~t. business of the Committee of the t·!hol e House be not conclu<1e<l, the Chairman is directed to report progress and ask 1 eave to sit a~ain. (

R) At 1() :30 nf the cl cck P .:·!. unless the closure rule Standing Order SO be then in operation, the proceedings of any business under consider at icm shall be interrun ted, and '!r. Sneaker shall ad1ourn the P.ouse without fluestion out, orovided that all husiness net disposed of at the terl!linati.on of the sitting shall stand over until the next sitting day, ,.,.hen it will be taken un at the same stage Hhcre its progress was interruoted. MR. HICK! !A)!: :•r. Sneaker, ! give notice that I <-'ill on tomorrow move the

April 10, 1970 Tape f)t,Q6 Page 4 following Resolution:

WHEREAS Canadian National Railway has indicated that the ferry operate~ and/or managed by the Canadian National Railway and runnin~ between North Sydney and Argentia may include the Islands of St. Pierre and }aquelon as a regular port of call. JW AND ~~EREAS the implementation of such policv by Canadian National Railwav would adversely affect the tourist trade of the Rurin Peninsula and NeHfound­ iand generally thereby reducin~ the potantial inc~~e anrl earnin~s of the residents of the Burin Peninsula in particular.

RESOLVED that this House inform the Government of Canada that it opposes unreservedly any decision by Canadian Railvav to make St. Pierre a port of call of such ferry. Answers to Questions: RON. STEPHEN ~IEA.~Y (Hinister of Public "'elf are): '-fr. Speaker, I have the answer to Question (349) on today's Order Paper in the name of the member for Fortune. I mip,ht say Mr. Speaker, that la~t Sprin~'s austerity Budget caused quite a number of government deoartments to do a ~reat deal of soul­ searching on the iimit that was set bv their soending.

Rut there has been some very real benefits both to the deoartments and to the ~rovincial Treasury, as a result of this. k~d a good examole of this is through the more effective use of space ~~ich in the foreseeable future Yill enable us to accom~odate another ~wenty-eight senior citizens at the Hoyles Hone t-Jithout any expense of additions to the present building. This is being done simply through the better use of existing floor space. Part (2) of the question Hr. Speaker will ha\'e to be directed to the hon. :Unister of PubHc "'orks. 1811 I

RON. W. J. KEOtiGH:(:mHSTER OF l.A"OUR): Mr. Speaker; Question No. 379, asked by the hon. r:e:!l:,er for Burin. Answer to the first p<>rt; "No". The second part of the question: "It does not, therefore, ari~P. _" ThP. trd-rrl part; "At the tno!l'eot, I do not know." In elaboration of that I 'lo."Ould like to say this: I take it that this qu~stion arises out of some publici~y that appeared in the neuspapers this ueek, that dealt .~lith one aspect of a convesation that I had a week or so ago vith Mr. Martin Saunders of Baie Verte. Mr. Satmders is the President of the Asbestos ~lorl,ers .. L'nion there.

He is also, I believe a Vice-President of the 1:-!ed'oundland Federation of Labour. He C<l..'<te to discuss a rc.<Jtter that concerned hie o~-m imion with me and we disposed of that matter and then he rah:ed, t.-ith me, another i:!atter 'l.if:ich concerned a letter he had from Hr. Ernest Shea of Glen .... ood, concerning a complaint that }1r. Shea had ~de to ne. Since Mr. Saunders undertook to give the matter publicity, I l-Iish that he had undertaken at the same tiii:e to report more accurately \:hat I said to him at that time.

What I said to him at that time was: "that I had received representations fro::: !·fr. Shea aJ.d on the basis of his representations I had reviewed all of the evidence available to :nc, that I had concluded that there 1o1ere no grou:1cs froc my intervening and th:lt I had infonr:cd ~1r. Shea to that effect. Ifo...,ever, I added this. I told ~lr. Saunders this in addition, that since Nr. Shea continued to nake representations to me, I had directed a second revie't': of ~!r. Shea's case and that if it appeared from that second review that ~r.

Shea had been done any injustice, cf it there appeared sufficient evidence from the second revie1;r to ~'~-c:-C!nt such , action that I t.tould ask for a mag:ister:!.al inquiry.'' At the m=.ent the second review is not co::~pleted, and I am not in a position to say ~:hcther or not a magisterial inquiry ~ill proceed or not. Question !:o. 381, asked by the hon. member for St. John's East (E:xtern). The answer to that is; "as yet there has been no <!.llocation of par!:ing, individual parking lots to the employees of the Hork::1cn' s Compensation Board." MR. SMALL\,'OOD: Hr.

Speaker, before your Honour c.:1lls Orders of the D<~y, I would lik e to have the indulgence of the House and I ar.1 sure I' :;!:!ellY ~ as the House knot'lS •-hat it is about, to drat; the House 'sattent:lon to the fact that the ~st popular ceiTber of this Ho~sc, personally popular member of this House is today celebrating the fift.ier.h anl'.ivers2ry of his t>cing called to !1812 ct

the . bar of Ne•~foundland, and I refer, of course, to the Hinister of Justice and President of the Council. Fifty ye;:)rs ago this day, he \Jas cilllcd tu L.i,., bat· as a very young lawyer anel began his very dis tingui~hcd career as a lavyer in Newfour..dland, rising to be Hinister of Justice and as Hinister of Justice serving longer, I think, in that office than has nny ~n in Canada's history, certainly longer than any can in Newfoundla~d's history.

He served something like eighteen or nineteen years as Xinister of Justice. n.e President of the Council, the-· Hinister of Justice served his apprenticeship as a la~7er under a very ~reat and brilliant ~n, the great brilliant lawyer, Sir Richard Squires, the great Liberal Premier of this country as it vas then and havir:.g served his apprcnticesh"ip as a le1-:yer, under Sir P.ichard Squires, the firm thenLtq,~kno~'1l as, I belie\·e, Squires and Hinter; he was called. to the bar fifty years ago today and then entered the fi~ of Squires and Winter as a practising la~·~r and not too long after that, the firm's name was changed from Squires and Winter to Squires and Curtis.

It was as the lav partner of Hr., later Sir Richard Squires that the present Hinistcr of Justice entered the field of law in Ne1<foundland from the very beginning in a very dramatic vay. Because as the law partner of the Minister of Justice, as Sir Richard Squires was for a large part of that t!me, and as the la~ partnar in ~ny case and as a close political associate of Sir Rictard Sq~ires, the present ~linister of Justice iearned . ~ore about the public life and the politics of this country chen I suppose any ron ev~r did.

Hhenever the Prime Minister vould go avay and that Prime l·!inister would go away for as much as two and three months at a ti~e, the then Mr. Curtis, his lzw partner, uas his representative in Newfoundland possessed the ecce by which the Pri~e Ministe} could co=unicate here with hio and he with the Prime Hinister, and he was the liaison between the Prime Hinister and the rr.eobe:rs of the Ccbinet. It was an extraordinary relationshi?, He was almost the acting Prenier, the acting Prime lli.nister of 'Nel·Tfoundland in the long absences of Sir Richard and Lady Squires.

I have had a lot to do with a lot of la\~;ers in~ twe~ty­ one years as Premier of this Province and before that in another ~ay, mostly defending myself against ther.~ or getting them to defend me against other lavyers, but since I became Premier I have dealt with la~ryers on both sides :!813

of the Atlantic. I have dealt with soce of the r10st brilliant la~ryers tha~ you would want to meet, American, Can3nian and British-En~lish; P.S?Pri~lly English, some Gerrnaa, some Fre:::ch, 'Some Italian. I met a lot of lauyers and dealt l11th a lot of la·."Yet:s.

I have yet to m~et any law-yer r.:ore b_rilliant in his quick insir,ht, his ability to go straight as an arro·u, rasor sharp .. to the heart of any r.3tter and the thing,-Sir, that al~ays left me in a state of tremendous adniration is the fact that here at least ~as one lauye~, if there never vas another, here vas one to 'irhom law 'i:zs not an end in itself at all, but a means, a thing to be used to serve oen, not som~thing that ccn should serve, but so~tning that should be used to serve ~n - it is a tool - a tool of ran's mind- a tool to achieve purposes and to achieve justice.

The association I have had with him, which bcgan_long before I ~as anything, when I was a very obscure person and he befriended me, ~hen I needed friendship in the vorse kind of way. That relationship has contin~ed to thia day il.nd there never has been in Ne...,foundland's history, I vould say, ~o ~en in politics wh~ saY more closely eye to eye and ...,ho agreed ~ore th~n he and I have done fro!J. many, tnany year3 ago. I Jo not knou ho~~ many more years he will be a~lling to stay vith us in this House. I would hate to see hirn ago, before I go.

I would like him to feel the s~me Yay about rr.e that he vould hate to see me go before he goes, and I hope that we can stay here a te~m, a partnership, political ~artnership, that the like of ~hich has not been seen in Ne...,foundland before. I a!J. sure I speak for the whole House, wh~n I say that we have nothing but affection for him, affection <J.nd respect, on all sides of this House. He is a great Newfoundlander and fifty yc<J.rs a la,rycr today. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Spea~er, it is only now that I realize that the han. }linister of Justice has reached that plateau that he has been in practice for fifty years.

This, I believe, makes hi~ the second most senior member of the Bar of Neufoundland. The senior ~::ember of the Bar living today is 1-Ir. J. A '\-linter, Q. C., ~1ho use to be a Speaker of this hon. House and the senior practising lawyer is the bon. Minister of Justice. I have the very good fortune to follow in - I was going to say "in his footsteps", but at least to fol!1_o..., into the office of Hinister of Justice. I can 1814 ··'

truthfully s~y th~t over the years, the hon. Mr. Curtis has been regarded as one of !lc~foundJ and's great conveyancers. lfuen he ua!l a I practising La1-ryer before he entered the political field, I arn told, I cannot speak with much expcrie~cc !n this, bec<1ucc he ·U<:!S pr-etty l';elJ. int.o politics but the U!l'.e I started pr.nctis:lng l<lu. I <1m told byomy seniorc that he wa.<> ah1<:~ys regarded ns cne of Nellfoendl .and' s gre.c.t conveycncerc. His family have a cor..ncct:l.oa uith Grand UD.!ok.

I can rc2:'!whc~, <lS a very young boy, in the United Church in Gra!".d n:mk, t·7hen his Jzte fnt!'o.er p;:-e.::chcd what I believe was his lcs t sernon. It "ms on the se'l:entr-f1.ft~ .,_~_:1i.vers<:~ry of the establish :~"?.nt of the !!cthodist C'hcrch or that hd.l.dinc 1n t~e tetm of Grc:.nd Bank and 1:hilst the hD.n. minister t:as llnf('rtcnnte e::ough to have missed tlie oppoo:tu-:oit:; cf beinr, bern in that noble t.c~m, he c!ic! t.~e next best thing - he =il:lgcd to get himself born in t':le tmm of '1\rillingat:e.

I would wish for hin lll3.!:Y yezrs of happy retircc~nt 2nc tcc.:!y uc '1'-c.'l.·c the first conclusive and absolute proof of the impending rctjrert~nt o;; the hon. the Premier, becau~e it is quite clear that these t~:o p<lrtne:-s t!ill go out together and the ho~. the l!inister of Justice h<>.s 1:1~cc it quite clear that he is lookin~ fon1ard to an early retirc~ent. ~~y I ~nsh both hen. gen tle:n~n •• _lffi. S~~LLf!C~~-: He has been looking for · that for the Jast fifteen years. MR. HICGL<\N: I ~1ish botl1 hon. gentle=n, as they nou c:~.:!=k l'pon •• MR. SHJU.U:COD: Like t~. e midster for. l!r. H:dn. MR.

HIC'0lo\!l: g:reat grandfather, r:ry vc-;:y l;c:::;t witg~:::; [or !!~c:l. :: -::ctir:crecnt: <l!'ld !!':'! congratulations to the hon. Minister of Justice. MR. CROSBIE: l·!r. Speake:-:, it is not often in this HolJZe th<:~t: ~:e have to congratulate one of our hono~=ed collea~ccs foo: achiev i ng fifty years .:!!: the Bar, not only in the House but outside the Hot"se, <1nn the lcae1:cd . ?linistcr of Justice, of course, has bcc:1 an adorn'"~nt of the Bar here in ~:cufoundland for ~I:Dre years that we care to rcc-.cmber. He is also Eo use lcacer, llr.. Speal~er.

He is the Le11der of the HolJse and has been for some tlJent}·-onc :.•e<1rs. He has been Le2der of the House for t>Jenty-cr. ~ years and curinr, aJ.l that t!cc. I believe. there was cnly once \<hen the hon. gc::ltlc!!'~n did not h.:t•:c a qll'li'L".11. in the House. 1UJ15 .. , ' ....

Apr!l lOti,., 1970 Tape no. 407 Page 5 a~ least that he was caught at - or the bon. gentle~an was cau~ht at. I certainly would like to join with the hon. the Premier and the bon. Minister of Justice was a former colleague of mine in the C~binct. I often heard him give very sagacious advice, ~~r. Speaker.

I uill not reveal the secrets of the Cabinet, but one of the pities of the larit twenty-one years is that all the advice that that learned gentlc~n gave vas not listened toq and I hope that if he intends to participate in active politics that indeec! he and the hon. the Premier ~7!11 go ot•t together, flags flying as they go dm-m beneath the waves. Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. Premier has me1•tinned that the learned Minis~er of Justice has been looking for retirement for years and we all know that the hon.

Premier has been looking for retire~nt for years.:He h~ ~een saying at• least for three or four years that he is going to retire, and we hope that this strong feeling of both bon. gcntle~n have about retiring ~-ill break forth shortly and that they t7ill cot be able to overcon:e it. As the hon. Premier said, Mr. Speaker, the Jat-r is not an end in itself but just a means. The me~~s should be j~oticc. I think there has bee:1 quite a bit of progress in our system of justice in Nc~rfoundland since the bon. the !-!inister took over his Portfolio in 19ll9 - ¥rcC!t rcfor= in 1816 ..

HR. CROSBIF:: comes in just l~bour law alone, and in many areas a la~~~r's law.- conditional sales, Bills of Sale, }-lagistrates Courts, other thinr.s that came in while the han. gentleman was in office. And I think th~t the Premier's praise in him is w~ll desencd. I enjoycti mv time tdth him in the Cabin~t the several years that we were there. I only vish him good luck in the rest of his political career .and tt\at when and if he docs retire, that we can get together for some interesting chats about hi3 exPeriences during the last twenty-one years. I feel sure Hr.

Spc<tkcr, that on~ day vben everything is kno,·m, "t..'hen all the details are kno':u. cf ~rhat hao; ~·1n'! on fo~ the last t"-•enty-one years, that the han, gentlC~Can ~!ill stand high among those who have be.en active in that pericd. MR. BURGESS: ~!r. Speaker, before proceeding with <1rders of the Day. MR. WEllS: l·lr. SPeaker, if I · may say a few words while we are still on this matter. Do you intend to speak on this matter? . ~ffi. BURGESS: No. MR. WELLS: Well if the hon. gentleman does not wi~h to speak on the matter, just raised by the Premier, I would like to speak before he moves on to another matter.

It t.'"ill only be brief ~fr. Speaker. 1 am sure that the comments made by hon. members are well deserving. The hon. le~rned g~ntlen~n has reserved for himself and for his a r..er.;ory a place in the lat~ of r:.1s Province. His record as Hinistcr of JU!;tice. The fact that he carried Newfoundland's responsibility as Hiniste::- of Justice over those years of vast cha~ge. I think will be recognized. lbey were not necessary easy years, some of them rather turbulent. But there is one matter that has been ever- looked, the discussion of his eminent departure of the P.ouse brings it to my attention, and 1 think :!r.

Speaker, I should bring it to the attf.'ntlon to other hon. m~mbers. Perhaps his le~al traininp, and backr.round have some- thing to do with his developt:'ent of his facility in this regard. 1 can quite frankly say what little 1 do know about orocerlures in chis House and how what the House should be run, and what little I do know of tends to dignity and decorum and what tends to so:nething less than <lienity and decorum 1 have learned from that hon. gentleman really, and from nobody else.

Now 1 can acknowledp,e the fact, I am sure we all do, that the hon. the Premier has a fair to mlddlin' knowledr,e of the procedur~s of thc !!ou5 !' . <!!'; • - 1:cr~ ~~ell kno"'Il• and very well accented. Ru:: it has heen the ''<·n. th~ Prr·"i<'.cnt of 1817

the Co'uncil ·Yho has for the four years that I have been in the !louse, guided the House, and it is to him that ~est members of the House turn t,•!1en thev want some advice as to hot~ this should he done. Not necessarily ~:hether it is legal or proper, but what is the traditional way of doing it. And nerh3?S it is his fifty years that brings him this knotJledge and makes availabie to us this knowledge. And I think Mr. Spe"'ker, we,would be overlooking something if we overlooked that fact as well.

Not only his achievements as a member of the Bar, of Yhich I am very prcud to be a member, although a much more junior one than that hon. member. But I think ~fr. Sneaker, we ought to acknowledge this on this particular occasion, irrespective of the fact that . - our opinions differ rather substantially on occasion, I can nevertheless s2v quite honestly that I have a great deal of respect fC'lr his vast knoHledge of the procedures of this House, and for the Wl}" in uhich he has direc~cod the House in the four years which I have been a mernher of it. Thank you Mr. Speaker. MR. MURPHY: ~r.

Speaker, I do not 1o1:ish _to ..de]_.,y _tlle proceedings, hut at a time like this I feel I would be rather amiss if I did not congratulate the hon. the Leader of the Hous~, and to thank him very sincerely for my eight years in the P~use, the past few months as Leader of the Opnosition, for the courtesy ~e has shcYn at all times to our side over here, 2nd ! 'W'C!!!d like very sincerely Sir, to say thank vou, his rarne is Curtis, but I thin;~ it should be Courteous. And when he is having his party I would like for him to remember me 2s saying a very good word about hio. Thank vou ~r. Speaker. HR.

CURTIS: I rise and say thank you to the Premier and to the hen. me..,bers of Burin," St. John's Hest,. Humber East and the l.eader of the Opposition fo~ their kind words. I might say I am taken completelv by surprise. I had forgotten that today was the day, and when the Premier started to speak, I was quite taken by surprise. I t~ant to say Hr. Speaker, I feel very, very humble, very humble, and at the same time very appreciative of what the hen. members have said. Thank you. HR. BURGESS: Mr.

Speaker, when I stood on my feet and the hen. member for Humber East asked me if I was going to speak on this matter and I said no, I did not intend it to be any discourtesy to the hen. gentleman. Since he has spoken, just let me add a sincere word of congratulati~ns to the ho~. gentleman on the service that he has orovided the Provine~ ~nd to the field 1818

!ape lr4Vt> Page J of law. It certainly is a terrible duo when you look ove!:' there and see the two of them there ready to pull you up on minor fraction of the House rules. The han. the Premier as the han. member for Humber East has eaid, he is quite an authority on them. He is such an authority, as a matter of fact, there are two areas of Ne,•foundland that 'ilre lnying claim to his birth. Gambo is saying it is Corner Brook, and Corner Brook is sayin~ it is Gambo. But Mr.

Speaker, before proceeding with the Orders of the Di:!y, I would ask leave to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a matter of urgent public imnortance. TI1e matter being }!r.

Speaker, based on the number and tvpe of complaints ''hich I receive daily from the workers employed a.t Churchill Falls relative to the matter of ur::ion representa­ tion which they· are receiving, and such union beinr. the legal representative of the workers only because of a retroactive Bill passed in this Hol!sc on May 1968, to legalize what had obviou!:ly been a blatant breach of the existing Labour Relations Act at the time whic.h this union was certified in 1967.

And since at this time, this union is acting in no other capacity other than a dues collection agency, and if we are to believe that . a peak work force of 6,000 people are to be ernoloyed at this project in June of this year, a goodly percentage from this Province, and since these \·:orkers are paying for protection fro:n the abuses. of manar,ernent and service uhich is non-existent. And since the economic arlvantap,c to this Province from the workers employed at this oroject is undc~iable, this Govern~ent and this bon.

House has the responsibility and obligation to ensure the "-'Orkers, the workers welfare and protection, before the situation degenerates to the point vhere the vorkers take matters into their ot.~ hands. And therefore, I feel that the urgency of debating this matter is of prime importance to the welfare and Progress of this Province. MR. SPEAKER: I have listened with o.uch attention to what the hon, member said respecting the urgency of debating this suhiect right no'l.

I do not think that anything can be )!ained by adiourninp the House to debate this, and neglecting all the ' other matters that are before the House already. There will be an opportunity. The Address in T:eoly has not been concluded, the Budget debate has obviously not been started, and there is ahmvs by '~av of Resolution to out the matter on an Order Paner. ~nrl delayin~ it for a day I

or two, or three or even lonRer. But the urgency of the debate I feel is not there, therefore, I have to deny the r~oticn made by the hon. member ior Labrador West. MR. BURGESS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to mention somethinr, else relative to this and the matter of urgency. I am accepting the fact that a ruling has been made. MR. SPEAKER: I have given the ruling on the remarks that the hon. member made, and we are not going to debate the ruling unle~s. not even if the hon, member intends to challenge it. The matter is closed as of noH.

I would permit the hon. member, if there is so~cthing he thinks that should ' be added to this, since I have given the ruling. It is not '~i thin the rules to do it, but if he '~ants to make a remark or tvo I would be 'Prepared to listen. :Hlt:. BURGESS: The point I want to make is the fact I feel that since I have introduced this Ho.tion, that in the event that the si tuaticn does degenerate to the state - !-!R. SPEAKER: The hon. member will halle another opportunity and as I say, he can ahrays do it by putting a Resolution on the Order Paper asking for i~ediate debate. MR.

SMPJ.WOOO: Before Your Honour calls the Orders, th~ House might be interested to hear a telegram that I rec:eiyed a fet~ minutes ago sent in to the House here from Ottawa. And it is a matter of tremendous interest and importance to our people. It is from ~r. Jamieson, and the first part of it perhaps is not very fresh, not very new, but I will -:-ead the Hhole telegram, which is fairly short: "The Govenu::ent of Canada has introduced le~islation' which would establish the Canadian territorial sea as twelve miles in width, measured from the base lines around our coast.

These hase lines in the case of Newfoundland were draw~ in 1967. The twelve mile territorial sea will replace the three mile territorial limit. and the nine mile fishing zone which was established in 1964, that goes too, these are replaced bv l·rhat is called here the twelve mile territorial sea. After the establishment of the twelve ~le territorial sea, the Government proposes, the Government of Canada, proposes to conclude the negotiations, to conclude the nc~otiations. I take it this means to terminate, to conclude, to finish, to wind up, to conclude 1820

the negotiations concerning the fishin~ activities of the European countries, legislation would also emoot.~er the C.overnment to create exclusive fishinjl: zones, exclusive fishing zones in are2s which have not yet been enclosed within straight base lines. Now I think understand this is no moment, no occasion to try to explain it, but if the Press gallery would like to have copies of it that they can take the original and make copies themselves. This seems to be a terribly great imoortance to the fisheries and the fishermen of Newfoundland. HR.'. CROSBIE: '·'r.

Sf!eaker, before you call Orders of the nay, I would like to stand on a matter of personal exolanation as l have the ri~ht to do I believe, before OrdPrs of the Day are called. It is a matter of a vile slander that has been circulated about me in connection with my conduct;with my conduct as a member of this House. The " vile slander ~rr. Speaker is that I am in the pay of Imperial Oil Limited. That anything I have said or done in connection with the Oil Refinery project at Come-by-Chance is said or done by me, because I am in the pay or paid by, or an a~ent or paid for this by Imperial Oil Limited. Now }!r.

Soeaker, I was telenhoned two rtigh r:s a~o by a gent:!.em.a~ fro!!: Clarenville, who was told this in Clarenville, and I know ~r. Speaker, where this vicious lie comes from. And if the person spreading that vicious untrue statement or lie, will make the lie o~ statement in the nuhlic print, or outside the confines of this House orally or in writing, immediate court action will be co=enced. Hr. So~aker, I state now cate~orically that I have not discussed anv ~atters at all with anvone from Imperial Oil Limited, any agent of theirs, any representative of theirs ever.

And in oarticular that before and since I resiP.ned from the Cabinet on that issue, never once have I been in contact with a representative, an agent, an emoloyee of Imoerial Oil Limited. Never once have I discussed the matter with them, never once have I received one cent, five cents, one dollar, anv amount of money whatsoever from Imperial Oil Limited, or any companv associated with them. Or anyone having anything to do with them. 1821

anything to do vith them and that in r.;y leadership car.!paign last year, Mr. Speaker, not one cent, not one red cent, not one dcllar, not one part of a dollar ca:::e from Irnped al Oil Li:r.~i ted to meet the expense of the campaign. I, th~reiore, ~tate that I welco;.,., - I W:!l:::orr.e the firs~ po.:!i"Jo:m in this Pro•1ince who vill state puollcly, i,,,;.tead of sneaking aro:md ;,chinu the scenes spreading a ru..""llr, telling .people' it verbally.

I 11ill 11elcome anyone in this Province that vill make this stater::ent publicly tha': ::: am associated in anyway with I~perial Oil Limited - have ever been paid a cent by them - ·have ever ~ad any C.eoJ ing.s l·iith t~em ~c. cor.necti~~.i. ~·J t.th the Come-by-chance 011 Refinery or any oil refinery or any matte-. .at a::.l. If that pe.rson will do rue that privilee:;e, the ;r.atter •·ill go i=.::d:!.z~ely to the courts, as I will sue for libel vr slande~. There is not on~ c~~~ of truth in it and anyone \!ho says it, suggests it or spreads it, is a deliberate, vicious liar. Mi..

SPEAKER: I do not want to engender a debate on this ar!d we aro: net going to have a debate on this, but vhen the hon. meiLher rose, I was "'''.:!cr the impression that this wa5 something that had been published in scGe of the media, whether it had been by radio or television or newspapers or something. Now I find toward the end of it that this is soscthi~:g tl;;at is personal conversation betveen two indi•idu3ls. Hou can a ~ersQr. ralse on a point o( personal explanation for 501!1ething that h:o.s never bo1cn Md explain avay something that has been told to ~s that so~ebody said ~bout somebody else?

Now if it had appeared in the public press and he tabled the paper from which he was quoting or it had appeared on r2dio, and he vas quottng from the radio script or an extract fro~ it, as far ~ it WuS possibl~r; ' to make a denial, but to make an explanation on some::hini?, that !.;;; a:::.f)r.cd to have taken place betueen b~o individuals; I am afraid t~at the it explanation, although it is acceptable and the hen. member has given,cnd there the matter closes. MR.

CROSDIE If the matter was published, then one cou1.d take legal action. l"he matter is being whispered, scandalously .&round and as your Honour kno~rs, it is difficult to co:n~at it. I make this stnteDCent todw.y not fearing that anyone in this House or in this Province can prove me wrong on it. If it is ever made publicly, other action 11ill :ollmr. ORDERS OF THE DAY !822

MR. CURHS: Hr. Speaker, I move that at 6:00 pm. today, Mr. Speaker do leave the Chair and that the House then stand adjourne<d until tcmorro~~ }!onday, April 13 at 3:00 p.~. :1-'.otion, seccr.d re.:!1ing of a B1.11, "An Act Respectj r13 The Payrc.ent Of Bounties On The Construction Of Fishir.g Ships." (Bill no. 16). ~IR. CROSBIE: Hr. Spca!-:er, it "'ill take me a moment to get ~ome notes he:e. Yes, Hr.

Spee.'<er, I think that "'hen ~~e adjourned debate on the second reading of this Bill, I had stated that I supported the principle of this Bill which is to d~ with bcur.ties - the payment of boun:ies on the c:onstrt::ction of fishing shiFS. This is a piece of legislation ~hich reph:c!!S an earlier Act, no. 30 of 1955. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the prohlcrn I was raising in connection w!th this Bill is one that is col!::JOn • The many pieces of legislation that C:OQe before this F.ou:;e, that the person •,;he "Wants to obtain a boum:y to build a fishi:~g vest;el !:lust apply to the minister .fer a permit to build a ship, and he must co certain other things. He must confOrm with the particular secticns of the Act. But then, }!r. Speaker, u~der sectior. (6) of the Bill, ·-"it is discretionary as to ~;hether the minister issues a permit to the applicant for approving bounty for him to get bounty in connecticn with constr~cticn of a ship.

The !:linister may is:,we the perclt." Mr. Speaker, t.'lis raises t:he problem of ho~~ the minister decides who is going to get permits for these bounties. If the hon. minister last year bad forty or sixty t-r hundred z.pplications for bounties, but onl}· sufficient t:lOney voted hiJ:J. to issue fifteen, then hou does the hon. minister decide t.rhic:.'1 of the sixty are going to get the bounties and \.-hich are not; assumng that t1!ey are all, Hr. Speaker, entitled to ti-.e b,..un~ and they all meet all other requireaents ? Do political considerationo. enter in or can they?

That is the problem and I would appreciate the hon. minister explaining, ~hen he speaks in closing this debate, as to what the procedur~ is in his depart"::ent in connection "·ith thes·c bounties and how these decisions are ::13.de and "Who advises him and I would like the hon. ~:ir;ister to advise vhethe~ this is a ~atter that he decides hi~self or whether it has to go before the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council,these applications fer bounties or for pcr.:-.i ts? I think it is a pity, Mr. Speaker, that in concction with this Bill and others, d1ere is not sene appeal procedure. How does the Gpplicant, who ts 1823 I

rejected, but who thinks that he is entitled to this assistance, what can he do about it? I have had several speak to 1:1e about problems like this • Nc-1 it.: ,.,,.., 1 ~ ~.; .nA ..,-------- .- ....... <"'! .. t-hn l.,,..,, • .,....,_._,. -- Cl-- ---- - ----~ • but they do not believe that. They do not accept that, and they have no~rhere: to appeal to. I feel that in connection ~ith all these matters, }!r.

Spcak~r, there should be some kind of an independent appeal agency within the Government where the applicants for discretionary assistance fran the Govcrnr-~nt, as in this case, can go and that board ~auld review the oinistcr's action? Would ask hio , on what he bases he decision? Why this applicant rather than the ocher applicant? Then, if the ~~nister or the civil servants concerned have got go~d grounds for refusing the application, an impartial, independent boa~d can confirm that. But, Mr.

Speaker, if the ninister has not got good grounds or the civil servants in question have not got good grounds and they do not satisfy the inclependent appeal board that they have, then the pertrlt ~;auld have to be issued. That is the only ~ay I see, ¥I. Spe&,er, in an age when the Govern~er.t is becoming all powerful, only through some kind of machinery like that can we ensure justice for people who have to apply to Government, whether Fede~al or Provincial for assistance of any kind. Under this Bill, I see nc pro•P-sic~. The !:l!ni.ster can point it out, if I am wrong.

I see no provision for the applicant for assistance to have an appeal to any independent agency, if the cinister refuses to iss~e him the permit. I do not believe that a~y appeal is provided to a court-either on that ground. It is a very difficult thing.in any event to appeal to a court, because w~at ler,al matter can the court prove on it.

But an independent appeal board with knowledgeable people, versed in these kind of matters, perhaps a five member or seve~ me~er board and on that board, people absolutely independent of Govern~nt who have experience in the fishery, who have eA~erience in agriculture, who have experience in other phases of ou~ life and vho got so~ething to base a judgment or a decision on with a lat<yer and so on - a seven ~~n independent appeal board to hear appeals in conuection with all these kinds of decision~, Hr.

Speaker, is badly needed in the Government of Newfoundland, and badly needed particularly in this Govern~ent, because this is a Governc.~~t that knows how to wheel power a::1.d use it for political affect and does not ':csit.:lte to do it.

I do not say that the han. mi~ister "Wbo is connected uith this legislation is of that nature at all; because I have a v-ery hir,h opinion of that han. gcntle~n. This is a probl~m that does not pertain to the individual minister who is in a department. It pertains to ~inisters ~ho are going to co:::e and go and I think that, particularly in ~~e~7foundland, Hr. Speak<!r, this is a matter of the first importance in' connection - practically every significant piece of legislation l!C have had before the House, this session, Hr. Speaker, has got the sar.:e kind of discretion.=_ry pouers in it.

The Minister of Justice able to sto? a priv~te invcstigJtor over night by whipping his licence, no appeal, except to the courts, on a broad ground like in the public interest. Alcoholic Liquors Act the sam2, even more frightening. Application for bounties, for assistance to build a ship, the same situation and Act after Act is the same, ~lr. Speaker. I would ask the minister to consider whether or not he could 40t move an a~endment to thls to provide some right of c;ppeal for an app1 !cant \:ho is turned doun. I \!nd::rstar.li last year, Hr.

Speaker, that the amount of money provided for this pt!!'pose in the estil!l3tes of the Government of Neufoundland '!as limited. They CCiuld only handle a certain nl~Wer of applicants and that there ~1ere far =re applicants than the money pe=.itted to be assisted. In that situZJ.tion the right of ~pp~al is even more ioportant.

I would request that the minister, when he speaks again at second reading, advise the House hm·l ~.any applications are nol~ pending for this type of assistance before his department and ho~1 many, if any applications last year, the last fiscal year~ were not successful and hm·r many of those were deserving of this assistance, but \·Tcre not zssis te'd • if there \vcre any? Some kind of information like that em the situation here and hot-T the l!!inister decides, vhen he has r.~ore worthy applications thun r.:oney av<lilable - hoi/ does he assign the priorities? -Other than that. Hr.

Speaker, there are other questions I hav~ in individual sections of the Act, but that is the important, I think, point of principle that arises here, \Jhen ~le are cotu::idering this Bill on second reading. I notice that under section (16) "the hon. minister has the pm:c:- :::o designate by regulations what persons are approved builders for the purpose of 1825

Ap~il lOth., 1970 Tape no. 409 Page S building ships in accordance with the Act." How docs the minister decide there who is the approved builder'? How many a!'proved builders are there today'? Are there very many'? Does the. minis.tcr approve the individm:.l building his o~-m ship? The individual fishc=an of a long liner? Some of them are certainly capable of building their O\·m ships. Docs the mi~ist·~r approve them as approved builders? I think it '~ould be interesting to hear about that and how he decides who are approved builders c-.nd \:ho arc not'l Mr.

Speaker, this is a piece of legislation 1.:hich is rcpl<:!cing 2n earlier - it is not a ne•.r Government program. I su~;gcst strongl)•, Hr.

Spcake.c, that it is of the ut~ost importance for the Govern~cnt to consider all these pieces of legislation where they are gi\•en arbitrary p0'·rer, complete· arbitrary p~~er to decide what persons will get the benefit of a Government program or not and in all those cases, in every case, Alcoholic Liquor licence, Fisheries Bounty A~sistance, licencing a private investigator, licencing of anyone, there should be 2n appeal to an appeal board of at least seven people, every one of them independent of the Govcrn~nt, appointe~ to the board Ior a stated period of time, not able to be renovcd cY.ccpt by resolution in this House, same as a judge in relc-.tion to the Govern~nt of Canada, Parliament of Canada, who would be 1826

-· .. MR. CROS0IE: \,'ho would be e::~po;;cred to hear appeals fro!!'. this kind of situation with respect to thc vhole avenue of Govern~cnt services in this Province. I canneL see any reason ,.,.!1y Lhat.. should uui.. bt:: cioue, i[ L~u::-rt: :L; nothing to fear, a~d the Government should agree to that kind of pro~cdurc. It would be cuch better for the ministers concerned, because anybody ~dth algricva.nf!! should either have his age;rivanccfo.und correct or not by this independent board and would have to accept it. And the ~o~holc situation, Mr.

Speaker, 1.·ould be far healthier, than the present atnospherc that ~1c have in this Pro~~nce today in ~atters such as this. MR. WELLS: Before the •••• It will not be very 1engthly. I do endorse t.:h<::t·- the hon. u:e~r.ber for St. John's West has se.id in the setting of this general principle of li~itation of Governcent's discreation. I think there should be sone kind 9f a 1inite.tion, and soce kind of protection. The ~tter that I did want to particularly draw the minister's attention to, and ask for some explanation upon, natters contained in

Section 16, I have no desire to go into the detail of it Iiow, bec'ause this can be done in committee star,e. But I wa;~t to ne.ke sure that I do not find myself trapped in the cor.~:littee stage, being unable to have this su~-section removed because the principle has been approved. So I want to challenge any principle involved in this at this ti:::c ~=-. Speaker. L"'!d it =elates ver}· :r.uch to ":.·h~t the r.ember for St. John's ~est has said. One particular thing. the providence for the designation by the minister of persons who are approved builders. Now there is no lir-itation on that, that I subnit Nr.

Speaker should not be there. Tne next one is position, again I realize this is done in committee stage, but I do no.t want the principle of this to go unchallen~ed at this stage. That I can readily see the necessity for a list of qualifications of people who may be approved, but I '!.·ant to make sure that everybody Hho meets those qualifications will be desirnated. This is my concern, that there ~1ill be no:pickir.g and choosing as to ~ho will or will not be dcsip.naled. And I would not want that approved in principle at this star,c. Thank you, }!r. Speaker. EON. AlDEN HALONEY: (m!HSTER OF FISHERES): l-!r.

Speaker, perhaps I should first of all deal with a point raised earlier in the second reading of this Bill, raised by the hon. ~enber for Burin. And the point he raised, Yas a paine of concern to him, that provision should be made for a~sista~cc t0 fishernen and boat o~o.-ners to repair these vessels, tht' \'Cs~-·~ls in Gte3tlon, the vessels built ~der the Fishing e.nd Coasting Tiountics Act. Th~ hen. the me1:1ber is not here in the House at the present ti'C'le, but I ~:auld merely draw

Aprll 1Uth. 1~/U MR.· MALO~:l::Y: Tape 410 PK - 2 to his attention, that there is al=eady in the statutes

an Act respecting the FGJU;i:(~:.: uf l.,uuut..i.t:~ uaUl::t c~Uu11U.iug, acci repairing o£ fis!ting anci coastal vessels. And essentially this provides that whereby vessels are in need of rebuilding or repair, as a result of ~<ear and tear, and ~There a vessel is over fifteen yeats of age, th~ the minister ~ay approve.~ounties payable in respect of rebuilding such a"vessel. So there nre funds provided there is legislation, there is an ite~ budgeted every. year tincc this Act has been brought in, it vas brouzht in 1958, and I may say, Mr. Spen'~cr, that it has been availed of by a great many boat m.mcrs.

These are not in a-,·rnajority by any manner of neans because ~..-e do not h~e a grent number of boats over fifteen years of age, but there are such vessels and they are in need of repair or rebuilding as a result of fair \-'ear. Then there is provision for assistance. I think that takes care of the point raised by ~y" hon. friend, the member for Burin. I think Hr. Speaker it might be well not only for the benefit of the bon. met;~ber for St.

John's \~est and the hen. the member fer Hunber East, but perhaps for all hon. members that I outlined briefly the procedu~es involved in obtaining a permi~ to build a fishing vessel. And I hope in so doing, I '-rill cem!:!!!.St'::"ate th2 cc:::;>lete a!!.:i practic.:::ilitj· of .or. zppe~l board. Firstm of all Sir, one of the newspapers in dealin!'; Hith the earlier stages of this debate suggested that the bon. ll!ember for St. John's 1-lest stated that the premits were issued for political reasons, he did not trake that suggestion at least this was not oy understanding of what he said.

But he suggested 1 thin'k merely that in his opinion, the Act did lay itself open,· to that suggestion. I would like to say, Sir, that a long ~iner, and this is essential~y to what this legislation refers, has beco~e a very expensive vessel. The cost is roughly about $1500 a ton. So the average long line fishing vessel around the Province would be worth an}~<here fro~ $35,000 to $60,000. And to a fisherman this is a very tremendous a~ount of money. You have no idearthat is fitted ready for fishing. This is far beyond t"ne reach of a fishcr.::!n from his Ow~ resources.

Therefore, there a~e four contributing parties involved financially in the construction of a long liner. First of all, there is the fishe~an, who from his ow~ bank account, or ~herevcr he ~::!~s ~is ~oney, or in materials thnt he, hi!T'self is able to get froll! the fc>rest, t~nd s;n~ and prepare, he is required before any consideration is given to a per~it to furnish

~pril lOth. 1970 Tape 410 PK- 3 MR. ~!.\T.m:EY: evidence of a contribution. As I say this mavbe in cash , it may also he in coin, and in coin it may be a combination of materials that he cuts himself, and labour that he provides hir.self, or his family provides. It is to~alled up, added up, given a dollar value, and it is deemed to be his contribution. That is ~t ': ~·? The next contribution assuning that the application meets all other conditions, and these will co~e a little later, the next contribution is a contribution possible under the Act now to be amended, and thut is the Fishing Ships Bounties Act.

That contribution Sir is at the rate of $160 a ton. And if the fishe~~·s vessel is thirty tons, the Province therefore, the applicant having met all other conditions, makes a .contribl• .tion of $4800. So now we have the fishen"c.n' s contribution, the contribution possible by the Province.

It would be i~possible Sir today for any fisherrecn in this Provi"!ce to acquire a long liner, I suggest ~~ithout the help of the Federal Govern!!lent, and to that extent, they have brought in, and has had in ncu for a nU!::iber of years, a progra!!l si:;:ilar to ours, called the Fishing Vessels Subsidy Act, a~d they are now making contributions up to fifty percent of the total cost.

Again, they lay dO"•"n requirenen~s fer eligibility a:'id ~-:hen these requirerr ,ents are met, the Federal Government may thea make a substu!'-tt.al contribution a~ounting to fifty percent of the finished cost, the tote! finished cost. So nc-;.• you have three con~ributions, the fishermen's, the Provi.nt:e' s and the Federal Govern<:.ent's. If you total these up, Hr. Speaker, in my experience in the last fourteen years in the department, they have almost without exception, fallen short of the anount necessary to build a boat.

And here is where the fourth contributor comes in, in the person of the Fisheries Loan Bourd. This is a loan board set up by the Legislature, anstJerable to the House through me, ~~d they ~ake their contribution by way of·te~ loan at a modest rate of interest. So you have four people contributing ·. to the venture. \-lell, each of the three of the contributing parties, l!r. Speaker, have very rigid requirements. The Province, first of all, has to determine on the fishing experience of the applicant. fie has to prove his citizenship, these are requirements in the Act.

If he wishes to build the vessel himself, and I may say Sir that ll'.OSt of the long liners built in the Province, are built by the fishermen who beco~e the o~~er and operator, occausc builder, o~~cr and operator, we cust satisfy ourselves that he has the competence to build that iCI90 •I

April k~L. 1970 Tape 410 PK - 4 ~-'··. : :ALG~ .•• Y: --· ------ -- ~ vessel. Maybe he decides that somebody else has to build a vessel, if he is unable to do it himself, he has to furnish us with the name of individual I or the yard who may build the vessel. Ee has to give us assurance that he will fish the vessel for a period of five year's, after construction.

And a number of other perhaps lesser requir~ment!L Now to get to this procedure, he meets with the appro?riate officials in my department and the Director of Shipbuildin~ is a qualified N3val Architect, a man that we brought in from Scotland, a-~an very competent , in small boat building, particularly vooden. ship buildinp,. He replaced Mr. Dick Harvey, l!r. R. A. Harvey who was Lloyd's surveyor in ~iewfoundland faD a great many years and also ~orked with the Dcpattmcnt of Fisheries, both very competent men, particularly in seall boat building, and ,.rooccn ship building.

The fishermen meets the Dirctor of Vessel Construction, that is his title in our department, he is an architect. And we have on the staff of the department, a number of people who are very well known, and very well qualified in wooden vessel building, 'lo:e have Mr. Hax Grandy, who for yc:1rs ·and years operated a small shipyard on the south co~st, and Captain ~lonza Frampton "Who op-erated a small fish yard in Honroe, Trinity .Bay •. :•The~c ·.!Ire competent vessel builders.

They know a good bit about shipbuilding, they know a good deal about the fishery of NeHfoundland, and a good deal consequently about the competence of the people who corr.e to them. But these are the people to whom they talk to in the first instance. Then having satisfied the officials ~~ho are in the •Division of Vessel Construciton, the man is referred to the Fisheries Loan Board to make an application for a loan, the~a~ount of which it is necessary to make up between what he provide hi~self, what he may get by way of bounty, and what the Federal Government may provide. 18:30

the fishcr : es loan beard is,as I say is zc~u uo, is a ~card establi::;hcd by the Leglslature and is ans-..JernO:Jie co the !louse. of the region.:J.l director of fisheries :!n Nc'Wfoundland for the federal &avern- ment. I think the present members are ~r. Basil French of the firn of. Fishery Products, and has been engaged in the fish~ry of Newfoundland for •' perha?s fifty years, forty or fifty years·. Hr. P. J. Antle, the General Secretary of the Federation of Fishe~en is a menber of that board. The deputy minister of Fisheries, Eric Gosse is a memhcr. }lr.

Ross Youn~ of the Newfoundland Fisheries Development Authorjty and one other ~~lose name skips me for the moment. This l:lan 's apnlicat ion, or he r,ocs before . the Board makes his case, and the decision, the aprrcpriate decision is taken. Now after this, there comes the ~ajar contrihution to the project and that is an application has to go to Ott;wa.

And they feel very strongly about the major contribution that they make and for a nul!lher of reasons a number of valid reasons in my opinion Sir, they ,as ••e do, w:mt: to ~ake sure that where they are subsidizin11; boats to E"nter the fishery, that in their opinion and in the opinion of the department of fisheries rese:~rch people a long liner fishery is possible, There are certain are.:ts of Nevfot~ndland fisherman to en~age in long liner. My han. friend frn!!l B:~y de \'erdc knm's this pretty well his area happens to be one of the particularly good ones, and my hon. friend from the district of St.

Barbe South happens to kno•·r fran the development dmm there that that too has been found to be a oarticularl:r good area. But I repeat there are certain are?-a, certain gronnds,off rarts of Ne"Wfoundland 'Where it would be/~~actic-:~1, and as a r.;:-~tter of. fact ~lr. Speaker in my~~~ district, if I oay, the district of Ferryland, they have not taken to the long liner orop;ramme over the years and T think perhaf!s there <:~re only two in the whole district.

And, fer the very simple rea~on that the ~rounds do not lend them::<elves to this pal·ticular sort of develor;r.;ent. it is a !:Jir, trap-fishing area, perhaps one of the hlgfest in the rrovlnce. But for long- lining it is quite different frcy.n Bay de Verde, say, or tonavisca or Fogo Island, the headlands and this is "'here th2 main development i.o: :- 'dng place. XRJ·10R.~F.LL: ~rr. Speaker, if the hon. minister will allmJ a oue~t:icn, he knows the ilistrict of Hermitage very ~rell and 1 uas ~onc!erin~; if the hon. rr.inister 1831

will :ell the House t.:hy it is that th~re is such an absence of lonr, liners in that distrlct! MR.NALO~lEY: To that point ;rr. Speaker, I believe the exPl:mation that I ~las giving I think perhaps ans~:crs the question. Farther south alonr, th~ zouth west coast in the district of Burgeo & LaPoile there is no question about it that is an excellent long lininp, area and one that has developed very rapidly, we do not have to encourage the development there it takes because of its m.-n momentum.

And I think for the vP.ry same reason that there arc not the same grounds off Hermitar,e llay that the fishermen ha,•e not taken to this kind of development. So consequently Hr. Speaker, to be as brief as I can, the Federal Govern~ent takes quite an interest in this subsidy and they .,;ish to have their stamp of approval as ~tell on an apolication. So you have, Sir, the staff of the division of vessel construction in my department made up of the director, who is a naval architect, a professional man, and qualified builders underneath him.

You have the Fisheries Loan Board made up of a chairman and a number of men from the business co~unity and from the civil service. And you have in Otta~1<1 a board, perhaps somm/hat similar to our division of v~~se! ccn.str:ctinn here hut perhaps aided a~d re-inforced by the research of, fishery depar·~~ent. .\11 these -;>caple h:1ve to have a say. all these people have to give their stamp of approval, to an application.

No~3 to a fisherman this is a tortutous process. •his is one of the things that ! have, has nnno:red r:1e, but unless t.7e :;;et the kind of help, unless we can get this kind of mcney, unless the federal governmen4 is prepared to make this kind of a contribution and unless the fisheries loan board are prepared to make loa ns under favouraille conditions to fishermen there is no way that a fisheman in !!e~·tfcunci~ancl, the avcr;;~e fisherman in Newfoundland today can acquire an exnensivc fishin~ vessel.

So you have , as I say, th:::-ee grou ps of !learlle. profcss:!.on ;:;l::., people out of public life, anC: ch.·il servants, all of t.1hom are involved putt.i.Gg the seal of approval on it before it gets to the ~inister. ~nd I have never kno~m Sir, I ar.t just go in~ to deal in one sentence ~71th the fear raised by the hon. member for St. John's T-~est and that is I have never l:no~om in my exoerience and I am sure that it has not ha~pencd before my time ~here an application, a pernit has co~e to a minister , it has rne~elv come to affix his signature to meet the reouirC' rr.cnt·s of t:he l:11.r.

'J'hc ;:em. the member for St. John's Hcst raised another, raised tuo or is that he is concerned on tl1c noprovnl of builders, to that I can say this, in the m.:1jority of cases the fishcr.nen t~ho col!!e to us to secl• peiT.lits to build §essels are able to build the~ from their own skill. If they are not able to build them personally perha~s they have a brother or a cousin in the coll!I!IIlnity ,.rho can furnish the skill but by and larr,e ~leufounc:llo:1nd len~ liner operator is, can oualify as a builder as ~ell. But I believe it is a very necessary precaution in this !:.ill ~·!r.

Speaker, to have a d ·~si~nntion by the Minister and the ''inj ster in this :inst.Jnce is the department, and the department as I suggest is the director of vcssl':i. construction, a na\•al architect, and men lil:e Ca!'t. Grandy and ~·r. Frar:mtoo. I think that their advice and help and l:no<7lecee in anorovin~ the Bill is very very important, very essential. Because Sir.

Hhen I say the maj oritv of Net;foundland fishermen are able to build their o~~ vessels it does not necessarily follow that every fishe-rn. e~!j_s able to build his otm vessel, and it •muld be quite t·rron~ in my view to encourage1ggpr~1ithout cualification to put his otm money at riek. bis cn."' time, has 0'-'"11 energy, hills O'I.Til materi;~.ls, his otm money or cash or ~~~tever you ~=ve.

Fcrhetti~g th~ ~ovcrnment's co~tribution federally ~nd provincially and the loan Board's ~oney to put his O'-'~ at ri~k if be is goin~ to wind U? ~ith a boat that is not se~worthy and perhaps not ahle to do the job that the boats intended to do. Therefore this is a very very prudent provision in my o;Jinion, it is one that ~·~e, it is not a contentious one in my experience, because it does not take very lon~ f~r our people to determine whether a man is able, has the competence in himself, or can p,et the competent men to build a vessel. These are the, I believe the main points raised Mr.

Speaker, in the debate, if there arc others that mny come uo or may he allowed to cor.te up in committee stage I '-'"ill t>e glas to ans·,~er them, but I think in general I have, to many concerned raised, is that the necessity for :m appeal board and I, the process if tortuous already.

A man has to ~o through all hhese stages, we tell the fishermen ftrst of all, when he cones in, look, it is going to be, ...-ith everythin~ gain~ ri(>ht it is r,oinr. to he perh~ps t~;o or three months before we can ~et you a permit. ~-11th everythinr, workinp, perfectly and hav~ng back every qualification there is the division of vessel constructio 'n 1833

h'.' · -~::-i.:ls if he l:<1s the-m cut h;we to be examined. There is the meetin~ _,.,...'"1..;~ ...... ;,...,.. J...~r - r·:.· ·-- -~--- --· . ·-·· to ~eet on it, they arc referred to the research people and it co~cs back and this is tortucus enou~h. ~!ow 1 SU;!p,est to ft<"!VC an .nppeal bo<trd set uo vou would h<\ve to have one appeal board to ceal with vhat he, the reaction of the department, if that ~as alright and he £Or up ~r,ainst a problem in the Loan Board there ~10uld have to be nn appeal board to deal ~cith th.:tt.

If they h~d met everything then the federal government may for their o-.'tl good reasons t-urn it do-wn. There -.·ould have to be nr. appeal ar,ainst that. /l.nd this ,.10uld be n completely unworkable and impractic<tl Mr. Sneaker, as not to justify any con!'ideration. Mr. Speaker, I do not thin!c there is anythin~ else 't1ith these fe~1 remarks, I have much pleasure in movine; second readins of this Dill. MR.CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, ~ould the hon. minister ans~er a ~ucstion?

Does the hon. minister knm·:, or has the>re ever "!!een a e:ase ~;here an npplication has gone through all these procedures you describe a~d heen approved, yet the application you know, the permit va~ never issued? Eavir.p, be~n accented by IJtta~a, hmrtng gone through our loan board ;md so on, and been found altight are there an:.· cases vhere there are permits still have not ~een is~ued? HR .Y~.ALO~!EY: Hr.

S;>eaker, on t:-tat of course :>!< the hon. member know;. there are limitations of money, both in our own budget ond in t;,.e federal hudget. t>e have to take applications on the first come first serve basis. We al5o consider and· I think it is a very wise consideration ~..-e IHl'Jc to consider as good a distribution around the Province as possible havin~ re!',arJ to areas that have potent!~ for a long liner development. I am not at<a.re of any incident on the question raised by the hen. me~ber, MR.l~LS: The third question for the minister, the undertaking referred to in

section 5 (2) (

c) and (d). These are undertakin~s that for a neriod of five years from the date of final pavment the m-mer ~:dll undertake th?.t the enr,inc and power equiptnent of the ship o;..•ill be opcrnted bv ai person who has satisfied the minister. trtat P.e ha~ sufficiLnt working kr,utJ!ed~e, whr,t hapncns if the,;c undertal•!.n:;s after they have been l"i •;en, S;?.Y a yenr after, they have hecn r,i\•cr. what is it proposed will ha~nen if the; are not met if he discovers they arc not met1 MR.MALONEY: ----- ~r.

Speaker, these are not natter~ of principle and I think my hon, friend will n~rc~e. perhaps they could he done ~Jithin cc::>mittee. !·ffi .1·!ELLS: As len~ as the minister ac;reeo. with that, I will accept.

MR.SPE!~~~: This Bill has n~' been read a second time, ordered read a third time on tomorroH. Secon.!!_R_e_aE_inr, '?~Bill_, ''An Act F~rther To Amend The Pelf:ue of Children Act," MR.NEA:I.Y: This is purely a routine, Nr. Soeaker., it is just to remove something from the existin~ legislation that is.noH unnecessary because our o•,:n workers can provide the infom.1.tion that ,.:as previous] y provided by Peace Officers and the ~~gistratcs. MR..SPF./>XFR: It is moved and seconded th.:tt this Bill be nov reac.l a. second ti~e. ------ ~!JEU,S: '!1r. Spe.:tker, the main purpose of this Bill is to delete cert.:ti.n sections and to delete in particular sub~ection 11, of

section 15, and substitute a new one and I take it that this, "hile it is in a sense .~~'.:ni.l it is bi!sic principle becau 'se there is not much else in the- 'Bill, so if l.re approve the principle at this stage this will be it pretty well. That

section reads where an order is made under

section 57 of the Helfare of Children Act,

chapter 60, the Revised Statutes of Ne~~fcundl:md the jud!'e uho m.:kes the order shall where he is satisfied that the director will not otheruise be informed of the principle evidence on \lhi;:h the order is founded suhmit to the director a statement con~aining a

summary of all the imonrtant evidence taken hcforc him and any other rel~vant information idiu~ should he hro~:,ht to the attention of the director. ~~r. Speaker, I believe the principle of this thin~ is wron~ that Tt/e should enact let;islation ordering that n judpc of any court shnU submit to any person the evidence r,iven before that court '\;here it places the onus upon the judge to do that. I suggest Mr.

Speaker, that the "-'ord :'may'' should be substituted and I think that this is ?rinciple because that I am debating because the tenure of it no'W is the onus is placed upon the jud3e and he shall ~o it and shall have no choice, but to do it, and shall initi2te the action of hts own accord. I submit ~-!r. Spea!(er, that :!.t should, it should be l!lilde but at the very least it should; shall, where he is reauested so to do, that the onus should not be placed upon him to make the decision in any ~articular case.

I can see the desirability of the director havin~ the evirlence, 'I:-I~av<! no quarrel ~:.i..th that ~~hatsoever, r.~v thou~ht is th<1t it should he nade uhere he is satisfied th::;.t the director should not have it, or <!t the very least it should he sho~m '~here he is requested by the minister, by the director. 1835

~!r. Sneaker, in an,;•~er tn the hnn. rnl~mber who just co=ented on this :lill, I t.:ould 1ust li're to merely point nut that I do not hel±eve that he d1ci tus nome·~·nric very I'~ i.i. :·.ccause :~ctuaily ~rnat w-e are doing is deleting this verv

section of the Bill th:1t hP. referred to, because w-e feel n.:f•..r with our trained social workers that the.v are ahle to provirle us· with tl:e infor:na;:ion that we need instead of havir.11; to get it fro!ll the ,. sources that we got it MR. WELLS: --- -- :·fay I aslc the minister a qu~stion, J think I have to correct him, what the Act, as it is here si!vs, ~elete th<.> existin)': one and substitute the following. \ith respect '!r. Speaker. may I ask the minister a auestion? He has just ~iven this iniormation to the Pouse Yhich anpears to he wrong on the face of it.

It aooears blatantlv to he wrong, and I would ask the minister to correct it or show r.&e wi1ere I am wrong. MR • ..!!!_QS'-iA'<: !-lr. Speaker, there is snme confusion. MR. WELT.S: The onlv Rill I have is :~o.

(3) Child Welfare. MR. NEA?~: The leader in the Hou~e callen Order 16 which is Bill ~o. (4). ~lR. HICK~iA'~: We do not have the Bill. 1he ~ill has not been circulated. loffi. 'NF:A?.Y: I assumed he vas tal kin?, ahout ~:o. (3). }!R. ROiiO:R'TS: I fear the Bill has not bee" circulated, I do not have a copy. We ciid call OrJer 16 Bill (4), buL 1 do not thin~; it has 1Jeen circul;;.ted. Anyway it was a ~rand debate about nothing. MR. WELLS: ~:o.

(3) Hr. Speaker, is

an Act Further To Amend The Child Welfare ------ Act. }!R. ROBERTS: I will read the entire 'Fii 11, it is only t010 sentences. The Act may be said as the Welfare of Children Amendment Act, 197n.

Section 73 of the h'elfare of Children Act, is Chanter 61l of r:sx as enacted bv the Act No. 5 in 1968 is repealed. It is extremely simple. This is whv we '"ere unable to und~rstand the hon. ~2ntle~an's point, and ~hy he vas unable to understan·d us. MR. ~:u\P..Y: ''r. Speaker. I believe the Rill was circul.:~ted. On motion A Bill, ''An Ac:t Further To Al'tel'ld The Helfare of Children Act, read a second tin':!, ordered rcferreci to a r.ol"mittee of the h'hole Rouse on tonorrow. ADDRESS I~ RF?LY: ~. GEP.}.L[) :·1YrtDE':: I "to.'Ould lH:e to !'love that the ::ousP nr.-r~ed the <lebate on l-'otion No. 2, the llonne ilav ?ark, and seconrlerl bv the me;;~her for Humber East 1836

1ape f.'<ilL Pa~e z HR. S?EAKF.R: ------ The calling is in the hands of th~ House leader, and the Huu~~ i~aci~r ~tas called t~e Address in Kcp~y. HR. WELLS: On a point of order ~!r. Speaker. On a point of order, on a point of orcer Sir. r·!ay I make it? I refer Your Honour to Rule no~ 33 of our St..,nding Orders, Standing Order Xo. 33. The matter came up when the ,. Speaker lol'as in the Chair yesterday, and the Speaker ruled that the Motion just !:\ace by the hon. nember for St. B<Jrbe South was ·in order, under St::md .inr. Order t-ro. 33.

The ~:otion for proceeding to another order is in order at "' any t:!.me. Nr. Spe<Jker so ruled yesterd<:Y' Your Honour. }ffi., S~!ALUlOOD: l!r. Sneaker, on that same Point of Order, there is no1o1 before Your Honour a !lotion from the Government side. from the official government b.usiness. There is an order. a Votion he fore Your t!anour. If the House does not t;-1nt to accept that then a simple ne!l:ative vote will settle the w.atter.

If the House ~!ants it. a simple affirmative vote will settle the matter. ~ny not have the vote from the House a~ to whether the Go•Jernment 's order that tbe Government have called on ~rot ion will be proce~ded with. Then if it is not, the r~ver~~ent would then c.:1ll another order. But there is a Motion befote Your Ho~our ~o:hich is that this order be now proceeJed w::.th. And just to see th,1.t it ~o~ill not, can be done by a ne11:ative vote, not by substitutin~ another !-lotion. MR. CROSBIE: Hr. Speaker, on a Doin:: of order, the Position now is that there has been called the Address in Reply.

The hon. leader of the P.ouse called the Address in Reply under Sta:1ding Order 31, ~•hen a question is under-debate no question is teceived unless to amend it and so on; or for proceeding to another order. :<ow this question is nou under debate, the Address in Reply havins;! been called, and our colleague is moving that we now- proceed to anoth~r order. And l sub ::d t Nr. Socai<er, that it is quite in order and was accented vesterday and should be accepted todav, and a vote called on the matter. :-JR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that the House proceed to ~!otion 2 on today' s Order Paoer.

Those in favour please :o;av "aye'', contrary "m:y' The ~oticn is defeated. The Motion is that the Hou~e proceed to Iter.1 2 of Hot ion~. Those in f:IVour please rise. Xr. F.arle, ' fr. Wells, '·1r. Crosbie. :•:::-. ~-' ...--;-." ·n, :rr. !lurJ!css. !837

Those against please rise: The horr. the Premier, the hon. the Pn;sident of the Council, the hon. the :-Hoister of Labour. the hon. the :·linister of Hiv,h•1ays, '·lr. S:nall.,ood, the hon. !!inister · of T.ahraclor Affairs, the bon. the Hinister of Education, the hon. I:!inister of Social Devcloprr.ent, the hen. the ~linister of Provincial Affairs, "tl:e non. the Hinister of Public Welfare, Hr. Cannin)!:, ?·!r. Barbour, the hon. tl}e Hinister of Health, the bon. the Hinister of Fisheries, the hon. ~~r. Hill, the han. the '-!inister of Supply, ~r. \{orne 11. HR. SPEAI\.ER: Seven for, and nineteen against.

I declare the ~ - lotion lost. - ---- --- The Adc!.:-ess in ~eoly: MR. ~11\l.TF.R HOilDE'l: :!r. Speaker, before ! was ruclelv interruoted by the hon. 1nember for St. John's Hest '~ith a cry to his comrades to leave the ship, I think I_va:>- dealin!l: vith inflat1.on. Before I ber,in this afternoon. I would like to associate ~;self with the Pr~mier in an expression of pleasure over the armauncenent that the Federal Government has finally decider'! to introduce tt:e tt.:elve mile limit. I fe~l sure :!r. !Speaker, that the fishernen in my district are verv haopy \vith this news.

And r knm-r that the fishermen not. only of roy district. hut of other places in ~ieufound1 and and T.abrador - the enforcing of ttis regulati•'n a,.; ;:;ur.~csted bv the !'re:nier I think is a good one. becat:se it 'l.'ould be •1ery littl~ tJSe to the fish!'r:nen of this 'Province tc have legislat~cn ~hich uas not ?ropcrlv ~nforc~~. !ir. Soeaker, 0ollutioT' h-1s become a r.re.:~t~r mon;; ::er than inflatic>n. The disposal of ••a.ste should be :;:iven prioTi tv :i n our plans for the future. Canadian Society of Zoolo3ists say hluntly, the ver:r survival rof :nant:ind is at st.~~.

Perhaps the Rreatest menace of to all mankind is pollution. I~ Canada it is a ~=ce fro::~ cast to '1-:est. Canada is a beautiful countrv. hut many of the provinces reak ~rlth nollution from end to end. Fish plznts dumn offal over the encs of the wharves, '1-rhcre it si.m:r,ers anrl ~tm-rs. StinkinP. pulp mills efflu~nt is dh~oed into the Pacific and thr. At]antic. Scientists say that an e:<Ploding nonulation could us?. un food and ox·.·~en sul'nlies while destroying the 'l.'ater, the forest, the field th~t nrorluced the fcod and the oxygen. Dr.

Chant a · noted scientist s:ws, '"tht> rc<l si~ns of danger arc imminent- alr.ae c~o~s ~aters: ff~ h . animals and hirds arP disanpcarinr.: carbon r.;onoxide fi]ls the air frClm :!:!tome hi lcs. ' 1ontrcnl c':H'll';o ~nn rni 1licn gallons of ra1· se'·~a:;:e d;~ilv into the St. La,·:rcnce. , • ..,,., .. r our s.-~!.~·cm rivers

.m April 10, 19 70 Ta!lc f- 412 PaP,e 4 are open se;.:crs . Lake Erie is in a larre part rle<td, ar.d Lake Ontario is dying of lofaste fro t he t::-ttter! ~tat~-; am! Ca:1nca l·. hich dt h ns 15()0 ihs. of garba ge per persons each year . Four hillio:1. cans and 2 million bottles ,· and jars. Cit.ies and tot."llS dnmo ra•• scw;tpe into t.he sea. Mr . Spe ake r, t·.'e h,we heard ?le nt ~· .

I ao sure, ahout the cff<!cts of pollution from the tr.ill at Lontt !!arbour and i.ts effe ct on our fish . !n my own df.st:-:!. ct .-:t lsle a11.< !·~o!ts. manv t~eoole suffered the di!<cornforts of belching acici clouds, frora the hcrrinl! reduction r>lant there. ~orne had to move their families to other areas for health reasons and t{e had no leRislation to deal with it . ! hooc this ~~11 be re medied . The r>rohlc m has been corrected se ~~wha t. It is not exactly nice to be livin~ there yet , but it is irnoroved , and it is a lot bette r in a lot olaces 1~hcrc .

HR . !IIC ~:A..'l: Some families had to move out recently, hAd they no t'? MR. HODDCR: I t r.~ noc come to ~y attentio~. Aside from the unnleasP-n: odor , t he effects on the peo~lc' s lives e an neveT ~e determined . Pl~~ts of that kind s hould never be permitted to establish in tlUT to ~"TTS an:l v1lla~~s ·.d t ho;;t 1839

}!R. HOJJDER: Without making au~quate arrangements for the prevention of such discomforts and danp,ers to the he~lth of our people. Thank God public outcry of our citizens is makin;; progress against the belief that our land sea, sky, and water are in>i.n!.to!lyable to absorb poison in the name of progress. Groups in every Province are.preparing data, holding their-own public enquiries, distributing scientific lite;ature to try to make people conscious of the danger which prevails from pollution. The achievement of cleaner air and water must clearly be accorded greater"priority in our society.

It is certain it will cost Canacia large sums of money, but the importance of the goal to the quality of Otir living is such that the price hopefully will not be begrudged. The contributors to pollution are many and varied. !lunicipalities, utilities, public and co=erc.i.al buildings, schools and hospitals and indh•iduals are frequently bi~ger offenders than industry, a fact, which the public as a •..-:10le has been slow to grasp. There must be evidence of real determination to bring about clc:mer air :md ,,·ater which are so vital to our future. Mr.

Speaker, tllt: Fedcr:~l and Provincial Governments are concerned about the low sta:1darcl of living in many parts of C.maua. :;ewfoundland is one of the sections where the per capita tnco1"e is lm~ than an)' ot!1er Provinc:e. The Federal Government in February i969,. passed a !lill .:llich subsequently became law. This !lill was introduced to establishe tlle Department of Regional Economic Expansion. It provided for a ne•1 approach to regional development. This new department incoT?orated a number of previously seperated development agencies.

The purpose of this depart~ent is to encoura~c economic expansion in regions of Canada where the ~rowth of income and the employment has been lagging. In the formulation of de ~ elop~ent plans it is required to cooperate with other departments, branches ~nd agencies of the Governme~t of Canada. It is also required to provide for cooperation in the imple:nent<:~tion of plans ~vith these departments, branches and agencies, and to carry out these parts of the plan which cannot more appropriately be undertaken.

Departments are also required to make pro11isions in formulatinr. and c:l-:-rying out plans for cooperation with the Provinces and 1-zith individuals, 11oluntary ~roups, asancles anci bodies in designated areas. 18<-10

Hr. Speaker: In every country and Province there are at least three grouos pf people. There are the af ed and di!'labled vho are un.::~ble to provide for themselves and their fa~ilies, with a reasonable standard of living. There is the hard-core unemployables. l'IH~re are those who are living at a low level of income, because they either are unemployed or working at low levels of productivity, but who could if adequate jobs were available, and if sufficiently trained, could be brought out of the poverty class. It is this eroup Hr. Speaker to which a regional development plan is primarily directed.

Money comes to the Provinces !1r. Speaker, in three forms, from the Federal Government through person<Jl transfers, inter-governmental transfers and development programs. Each is desi~ned for a seperate pur:>ose. The personal transfer or transfer to individuals is de3igned for the first two groups, namely the aged, disabled and the hard-core unemployable, to provide them with a minimum standard of livin£. r.,e inter-Governmental transfers,to the less wealthy Provinces, are intended to pennit Government to provide a better level of services, health, roads and brid~es. A developr.1ent program is a.'lother matter.

Its purpose is to provid<! productive job oppot:tunities to people in low productive regions which are undeveloped or unemployed and capable of acce-pting productive jobs. This seems to be the ans..,er because there is less need for transfer of income. This will not only make people in poorer regions less dependent but will raise the national income. For society as a whole, it must be rm:tembered that concern is with people. who can under the right conditions, becor.1e fully:>productiv<!. To ?eny them this can only m£an tl1at the :~ational and Regional income will be less by the a.~ount of their potential o~t~ut.

The Atlantic Provinces, especially :!odoundland, thus have a higher stake in this progra.~ tt.an any other part of the country, in encouraging the the Federal Government to pursue a realistic regional development progral'l.. If the Regional Developr.1ent Program •.:ld.ch is about to be launched is to be a succes~, there wust be elabor<Jte long term preparations which will be shared by the Federal and Provinci<Jl Governr.1en ts. !he Federal Government will establish .objectives and priorities. The rcRion will have to accept responsibility.

T::ere v:ill have to be one tot<Jl develop:rcnt effort l:y all parties dcvotecl to tile sar.1c end, Let us hope th.l t thls can be nchieved. The policy is go~d, let us mnke it a success. 1841

No prog:ra::1 of developUJcat ho;.•ever well planned, can be a success llithout a good :;y.:;ter:: of transportation. Our first efforts should be to see that new roads are built "here needed and old one up3raded and paved. Nr. Speal:er: The people of Newfoundland and particularly those of Channel-Port aux Basques, are wondering just how far the C.N.R. will go in making cha~ges in tr~•sportation of freight or just what they intend doing.

I reruember a year or so ago attending a meeting of the Canadian National officials who told the freight handlers of channel-Port a~Basques that the rail car ferry ';ould bring mainland cars to Port aux Basques. The cars would be placei alongside our local cars and unloaded. This is not so. The cars are shunted off the ferry on wide gauge tracks and transferred to narro1.1 gauge \Jheels and r.~Cved to their o•m destination. This series of moves involving rail, sea ~,d road has puzzelcd people.

All ~aves point to the one objective, cutting do"-n cost, loss of jobs for our people, and giving t~orse and worse service. Mr. Spea~er: The conditions alan~ the south coast were never ~uch to boast a!Jout. I am pleased th<l.t the ~!inister of Transport has selected so competent a group of ll'.::!n to study the present system and to make recommendations for better and more efficient service. There is a noted improvement already i~ the number of boats now cperatin~ on the coast. ! know that if the Commission's_recc~~endations are i~ple~nted the service will be further improved.

Canadian }:ational seer.~s to discriminate against Newfoundlanders wherever &,d ~he~ever possible. For ex&~ple, freiRht destined for the south coast is unload~d and sorted at ~;orth Sydney. l.'hy should this be done there? We have the facilities and the freight was purchased by ~ewfoundlanders. I have been i!l.fOIT"- ~d by the C.:l.R. top officials that if Newfoundland freight were to be unloaded froo the cars ~t Port aux Basques it would further complicate the labour situation in North Syd~ey.

The people of Port aux Basques are sympathetic to~o:ards ~orth Sydney, but they cannot see their jobs that rightly belong to tl1eo going to others. It is our freight, paid for by Ne1.1foundlanders, and ~~y jobs developing from it should go to Ne\Jfoundl~~ders. I shall do my best to see that Port aux Basques gets the advantage of it. M:-. S';)ealce-r: The supplies for the c.:I.R.boats are purchased in North Sydney. The C.:'i.officials "·111 tell you thiit they can g~t them cheaper 1842 I

April 10, 1970, Tape 413, Page 4 -- apb This may be the case, but if it is a fe~ cents more in Port aux Basques, it is only the extra frei;::ht that: could increase the price, and the Canadian National vould have the advantage of this. The freight collected on t:he food across the gulf should be considered in the awiJ.rding of contracts. Otherwise Newfoundlanders have no ·chance in getting a contract against their counterpc~.rt North Sydney. Newfoundland should get all the advantages and benefits ~Jhich can coce from the Canadian :iational operations under the ;;ewfoundland jurisdiction.

I do not va::1t anyone to think that I ar~ criticizing any of the C.N.R.employees in the ~ewfoundland ar~a. I know every one of them from the 111anager to the lo~Test grade employee is conscious of our problem and the treatment received. I am sure that ev!!ryone of them is doing everything possible to make the service as efficient as possible under the rules and regulations