VOL. 1 PF..ELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEHBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00p.m. - 6:00 p.rr,. THURSDAY, NO;'EHEER l5, 1979 No. JO

~-<ovem.ber 15, 1979 ?ape ~10. 1083 SD - 1 ?l.r. Speaker in the Chair. Order, please! I am sure hon, members would like to Join ce in welccming in the galleries ~ao.ay nin~;;- s::.udent:s f:om Harbour 'liew Academy of Harry's Harbour, Green aay,alor.g with t:...'1eir chaperones, Hary Lo<.1i::>e Godden and Sheila Fitzpatrick. S0.:1E HON, :·!EHSERS : Hear, hear! >tR.

SPEJ,.l(E?.: Also vi::oiting with us today atJd seated in the gallerj are Captain Hasty and ~~enty-three college officers of the Salvation ii ... 'illy,from all over N~wfoundland and Labrador, ~·iho are pre.,;;ently stu~ying to bec~~e Salvation Army Officers. SOHE H0:1, HEHBERS: Hear, hear! 1'·1.-o •• SPEA..'<!:R: and Housing. i·IR. N. WINDSOR: The hon. :hnister of xunicipa.l Affair.,;; }'l.r, Speaker, I teg leave =o ~a~e a very brief verbal statement, I do not have a prepared statement, ~~st to inform :nembe.rs of the han. House that just a fe'J mcments ago t:ty colleague, tr.e hen. ~1inister of Justice (:1r.

Ottenheizner), and ! si;;ned a two year agreement with the prison •..:arders covering some 120 employees at Her i'lajesty 1 s Penitentiary_ in St. John's, the Saltr.onier Prisor. Cam? and the Correctional Ins::itution in s::epilemrille. !iegociations had been ongoing fer some tL~e and agreement was reached just late in October, late last t:~onth 1 and we have now just signed ~~e formal agre~~ent.

It is a two year agree=tent and I would just like to note that negotiations were quite agreeable and I thank the union and ti1eir representatives for the manner in which tney presented themselves and the manner in which these negotiations were carried ::~ut, SOME HCN, ME~.BER.S: l1R. SPEAKER: Isle. Hear, hear! The l::m. me:r.ber for t."'e Strait of Belle 2717

Nove:nbcr 15, 1919 Ta~e ao. 10d3 SD - 2 :--m. E • ?.CBERTS : ar. Speaker, ;..'e, on cnis ::>ide of the House, welcome the minister's anncuncel!lent. It is good r.ews and it should be treated as such and we extend cor.grat.ulations to all to · ... non they are due, including the oinister and his colleague,the ainister of Justice 7 t~e negotiating official3, : believe, are part of the Treasurj Board staff at.tached to the staff of the Treasury aoard heaced by the ~inister and, of course, to ~~e representatives of the union involved.

I express the hope that we will have the same happy results in the negotiations whicf. are ongoing with the firemen, the union representing the firemen, ana with the Police Srotherhcod representing tfle mer-.bers of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. I understand both of ~,ose sets of negotiations have ~ow been referred ur~er the afpropriate legislation to, what it amounts, I believe, to, binding arbitration. As I recall, it is binding on the govern.T.ent on one hand, :tnd the men - I g'.less they are all men1· there are no women in either f::~rce -the men employed on the other. AN HCN. MEMBER: ;.::R. E.

ROBERTS; A.:'l' Hml ~ !·l£:1:a.ER: HR. E. ROE.ERTS: Brotherhood. ru1. HON. MEMBER: M..~~ E. ROEEP.TS: (Inaudible) ! am sorry. (Inaudible) Are there women included in the Police No, in the penitentiary. No, I was $peaking only of ~,e firemen ~nd of t.'l.e police. ':'here are no women, I believe, e:nplo;ied eitb.er in the Fire Department or as C'lembers of t.."Je Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. I ....onder 2718

November 14, 1979 Tape No. 1084 ow - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: if I could ask the minister, perhaps, to indicate- he did not but I am sure he would have the information. It is a two year agreement-from when to when.ISthis a case where­ does it begin, say, from the first of April the beginning of the fiscal year 1 in which case we are eight or nine months into the agreement and we have fifteen or sixteen left 1 0r is it to be effective as of a ~urrent date? MR. SPEAKER (SI!~HS) MR. N. WINDSOR: Hen. minister. Yes, Mr. Speaker, the agreement actually expired on October Jlst.,l978.

So we are actually thirteen months into the agreement. MR. E. ROBERTS: I think it took thirteen months to negotiate it. MR. N. WINDSOR! Yes, that is true. How~ver, there are some extenuating circumstances in this particular case.To admit that that may appear to be an unusually long period of time to negotiate an agreement 1 but in this particular case - it has been traditional, in fact ~hat the warders follow the firefighters and the police; they appear to be about at the same l.:!lvel. Normally, the warders being a very small group~ relation to the other two, the negotiations, one followed the other.

There was always a correlation between the two. Negotiations, in this case 1 were interrupted for various reasons along the way and it vas not until early in october that a Conciliation Board vas actually appointed and within three weeks an agreement was reached at the board meeting. It was not, as a result of a board report~ the board, in fact, never did have to report 1 but with the aid of che Conciliation Board appointed by my colleague,the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn} an agreement vas reached. 2719

November 14, 1979 MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) MR. L. THOMS: Tape No. 1084 DW - 2 ORAL QUESTIONS The han. member for Grand Bank. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer). I am sure the minister, by now, is aware of the story that appeared in this morning's Dailv News in connection with the suspension of • psychiatrist from the Waterford Hospital. Appdrently, the psychiatrist was suspended for having given a patient some sort of a blow - a clip to the head, I think, as he referred to it because he got annoyed at the patient for blowing smoke in his face.

My first question to the mir.ister is: in what capacity was this patient at the Wate:ford Hospital? In other words, was he there on • Lieutenant-Governor's warrant, was he referred by the court or a volunteer admission or what? !-tR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. S. OTTENHEIHER: Mr. Speaker, I am certainly aware of the incident to which the hon. gentleman refers. P..nd all I can say at this time is that I have asked officials within the department to get a complete report for me on that ~atter and we will certainly make it known to the hon. House as soon as r have it.

And that may be before we terminate today, in which case, by leave 1 I will certainly be pleased to give it. MR. L. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER: Grand Bank. HR. L. THOMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member for Mr. Minister, I was wondering if you could tell the House at this time whether or not this particular psychiatrist is 2720

November 15, 1979 Tape No. 1083 ~11 - :1R. THOMS: also treating patients at: Her 11ajesty's Penitentiary a.nd,if so1 has his privileges been suspended at: that place? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Him.ster of Justice. HR. OTTENHEIHER: The person in questicn has ~n the past treated patients at the institution referred tc by the han. me~ber. Since the alleged incident to which the hon. gentleman refers 1 there have been no further such trea~~nts. HR. SPEAKER: A final supple:nenta.r:, the han. member for Grand Bank. :.m. THCHS: Mr.

Speaker, actually I would like to put a question to the han. the ainister of Health at this time. Could the minister inform this House whether or not this patient was injured in any way, whet..'ler or ::tot he was seriously injured, wheth~r or not ~~e patient has to be hospitalized? ;..-.R. S?EAKEF.: The han. :1inister of Health. !·1R. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I do not have c.hat information. I do not ~hink ie has been because my senior offici~ls have teen in touch ·.vith the administration t.here and confirmed pretty well t..hc report. of course, that Dr. Paulse has had his privileges suspended.

The altcrcation,cf course, it is quite normal to happen what has happened, and t.h.at is when thorc is any seeming unbecoming conduct is to suspend the privileges and the investigat.ion by the medical board and the hospital board. But I have no indication that ~~e patient was injured. MR. JJ.J1IESON: A supplementary. MR. SPEJ\.ICER: A supplementary, the bon. Leader of the Oppositwn. HR. JAr1:i:ESON: I ·.vill yield to my colleague, I did not realize he was r.ot through. !4R. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader yields to the hon. me~ber for Grand Bank. ~P.. THDHS: Mr.

Speu.ker, a sup;"Jlementary question to the Z.1inister of Health. I would like to know what kind of an invesdgation 272:1

Noverrber 15 1 1979 Tare No. lOBS NH - 2 l.ffi. THOHS: is to be carried out here 1 '-mat kind of an investigation his dcpart1nent i;:; to ::arry out here, whether or net it is going to be an interna1 1 whitewash job or whether we are going to have an external investigation into t.'l.is :natter? MR. S?EAKER (Simms): The han. Hinister of Health. HR. HOUSE: :.1r.

Speaker, it: is quite norr.-.al, rhe :.·ay this is dane is by the Newfoundland MedJ..ca..l Board and the Hospital Board" It is an internal matter and ! do not t.'link I can get involved as a minister at this particular point J..n tJ..me or our de?artment can. We just: got. a ~onfirmc.ticn that there '<~ill be an invest:igation. MR. SPEAKER: LaP aile. MR. NEARY: A new question, the han. member for Hr. Speaker, now that the :,_ar ..

Premier has returned ~o his seat 1 ! wander, Sir, if the hon. gentleman could enlighten us as to whether cr not the first thing he did this morning when he came to his office was to send for the Chairman cf the Newfaur.dland Hydro Corporation and the Chairman of the Public Utilities Board, because I arn sure the Premiar was .:.s shocked as all consumer:; o!: electricity in t.~is Province to learn t:hat 2722

Novetrber 15, 1979 Tape 1086 PK - l Mr. Neary: the ~ewfoundland Light and Powe::: Com~any is now making a million dollars a month profits. So did the han. gentleman send for the Chairmen of both Boards, the Newfoundland Hydro Corporation and the Public Utilities Board,and demand an explanation for these excess profits on the part of the Light and Power Corr.pany? HR. SPEJI..KER (SDt~): The han. the Premier. PP..EHIER PECKFOPD: Mr.

Speaker, if I was to call anybody to my office early this morning r~lative to the subject:. that the han. member mentions,! would not call the Chairman of the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro to answer questions about the financial viability or other.oJise of Newfoundland Light and Power; neither ~<."'uld I call the Chairman of :he Public Utilities Board. I suspect I would call otter people who were more directly associated with the ccmpany called the Newfoundland Light and Power. M..tt. NEARY: MR. SPEA.l(ER: LaPoile. :.m. !JEARY: A supplementary, ~r. Speaker.

A supplementary, the hon. member for In view of the fact, !1r.

Speaker, that it is the Cabinet who approves increases in electricity rates in this ?~ovince, applications on the part of the Newfoundland Hydro, does tl-,e hen. gentle."r.a.n now feel that the government was wrong, they were net right 1 in qranting the recent increase that was recommended by the Public Utilities Eoard, that Newfoundland Hydro could have gotten the revenue they neeCed £rom Newfoundland Light and Power Company without Newfoundland Light and ?ower Company passing it on to the cons~~ers in view of the fact that they are making a million dollars a month profit in th~s Province? ~1..rt.

SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. P~~IER PECKFORD: ~tr. Speaker, we are talking about two different entities ~(re,Newfo~~dland and Labrador Hydro and Newfo~ndland Light and Power Li~_ted, and they are regulated under ~~e Public Utilities Beard. This is a new process that have been put in place by gover~T.ent over the last ntlll'.ber of years to put: these two utilities under. t.,_,e Public Utilities Board and r.ave them totally scrutinized. And the revenue that Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro needs in order to be a viable 2723

November 15, 1979 Tape 1086 ?K - 2 Premier ?eckforC: corporation so that it can contim:.e ':o borrO\ .. , ~Dney and bring on new hydro projects at Hinds Lake, and bring on a hydro project at th~ U9per Salmon, to do experimental hydro projects in Roddickton, and to ensure that there is a stable supply of electricity, then they needed this kind of revenue. And th.at t.:as totally scrutinized by experts in the field, by the Public Utilities Board, and then approved eventually by Cabinet. But we have to understand, ~r. Speaker, that we are talking about tv.'O different entities, one a private utility which is regulated through ~he Public Utilities Board 1 2724

t<:overrber 15, 1979 Tape Nc. loe7 PP!:H!ER PECKFORD: and another o:te a Crown corporation which has to be confronteC by t.'le ?ublic Utilities Board and upon recommendations from the Public Utilities Board it is Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro's rate increases which then are approved by Cabinet. We a:re talking about t-.:o separate entities here, one 'l'lhich is into t:he wholesaling of electricity, Newfoundland and Labrador Eydro,and a Crown corpora_tion;and one which is a private utility which !.s regulated by t.'1e Public Utilities Board and '»lhich does not have that kind of gcverm:r.ent interference.

MP. ~IE'ARY : ~!R. SPEAKER: (Simms} hen. member for LaPoile. ~-!R. HEARY: ,\ supplementary, !1r. Spea.W:.er. A final supplerrenta~J. ~he ~r. Speaker, \>:auld the ~on. gentle~an no~ agree-and the hen. gentleman is side -stepping the questions t:tat ! am putting to the hen. gentleman. I Co r.ct •: an-:: to repeat the one that I just put 1 but the hen. gentle~an,eJ.thcr deliberately or otherwise 1 misinterpreted the q'.lestion t:.h.at I put to the hen. gentleman.

W"!1at I asked the hen. gentleman was did !-le think it was necessary for an increase to be passed on to t."'le consumers in order fo!' Newfoundland Hydro to get the revBnue that t.'iey needed to do all ti:e t.~ir.g:;; t..~at t.'ie hen. gentle~an just told us they };anted to do, was it ne=essary to pass L';e increase on to the consuner in view of the fact that :-1ewfoundland Lig!".t and Power !.n their quarterly report declared that they have earnings, profits, of $1 million a r,onth?

Jl.nd dces the hen. gentleman now feel that in the light of t.~is information in t..l-:.eir quarterly report,t.l-tat :1ewfoundland Light and Power shareholders,most of whom arc outside of this Province, ~hn do not live in Newfoundland, does t.'l.e hen. gentlet".an no·..,. feel that the increases should be rolled back and 1if so 1 wha~ action will the hon. gentlerr.an and his government take to see that these inc:ea:::;es in electricity rates are rolled back? !1R.SPEAKER: The hen. ~~e Premier. PFJ"f'!IER PECKFORD: The reatter is not thae simple, 2725

NOVFMBER 15 ,19i9 Tapa No. 1087 ;',H-2 FRE!UER ?FCY.FO?:D: Hr. Speat;:er,. The hon. !!'.ember for LaPoile (Hr .Neary) puts tJJ.e question and his pr.e~ble makes t.'l.e ... :hole issue very simple if you take just the gross earnings or the gross profit.

One has to look at a company not from the point cf view of ho~ much they earn per month but what is t.~e rate of return on their investment and what kinds of new projects and the amount of money that t.~ey make t.~at is put back into t.'l.e operation to insure its viability and to insure that it has enough new projects en the go or enough power to serve its customers. So it is not a simple natter of saying, you Y..now - the hen. member for LaPoile (~·!r.Neary) might be maUng- I Co not knew- he might be making SJO,OOO or $40,000 a year, he might have expenses of $60,000 or 570,000 a year.

He oight be investing SlO a month into soMe company and that c~pany migh~ be r.~ki~S a lot of Money or he mig~t be grossly,but ~~e amount of expenses and o~her ~~ings, t.l;e capital investment, t~e return on investn'.ent. are all factors which have to be put into the equ?tion. And I can only reiterate for the hon. mel"'ber anC for rnembers of this House and for the people of ~1ewfoundland and Labrador bat we 1-dll continue to rr.onitor -the ~inister of Hines and Energy {Mr.Barry}, t.1;e Chairman of the Hydro Corporation and others in 2726

Nove~her 15, 1979 Tape 1088 EC - 1 ?E.E.:.UER PEC-:FOP.D: Cabinet•will continue to monitor ~,e situation as it relates to electrical rates. I have indicated this morning on an interview on C.B.C. television that we are examining ct.'1er routes t.hat we can take as it relates to trying to offset the high electrical costs on consumers of ~,e Province, and hopefully, "J-ery shortly we will be in a position to react to and to try to take new initiatives as it relates to the impact ~~at it does have upon consumers of electricity in the Province. That is one ~~ing.

And w~ will continue to develop and be innovative and try to bring in new measures. We will continue to look at the performance of Newfou:J.C.land Ught and Power, the performance of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and ot..'lers in ~~e Province as it relates to this whole matter and keep it under constant review. But we must remember ~~at it is not a simple matter of saying that somebody earned this this month or that last month - it is more complex than that.

It involves just how viable the corporation is, how much of a return on investment. they need in order to borrow additional money and how much add.i. tional tooney they have to put in to keep all ~'le ligr. ts burning. MR. SPEAKER: (Si~) Belle Isle. MR. ROBE.R:'S; The han. the member for tile Strait of Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transportation and Communications. I gave him oral notice shortly before the House sat.

It relates to the proposal to build a new stretch of road, whic.'l I would think is one of the few stretdles of road needed to be built in the Island of Newfoundland, that portion of t..'lis Province, and that:. is the road which runs from the community of Main Brook in Hare Bay to join up with the new portion of the road which runs from Eddy's Cove ~ast over near St. An~'lony to Pistolet Bay, ~,_e airs tt;:ip is where the old road rar.. And I simply want to know if ~'le minister would bring us up to date as to where we stand. He will recall that when I asked the question in the s~~r session, he told us, Mr.

Speaker, 2727

November 15, 1979 Tape 1086 EC- 2 MR.. RJBE.RT3 ~ that -:..'tis Wa!:.i to be one of ~1.e i~en.s added to the- I think the phrase was 'the shopping list', ~~e list which will go forward ~o OREE, the list which has on it a number of roads, a number more t.~an will be funded, Could the x:U.nister tell us where it stands? Is it still on the list? H~ the list gone forward and where are we in the negotiations with DREE? MR. SPEAKER~ (Simms} and Communications. MR. BRETT: The hen. the lti.nis'ter of Transportation Hr.

Speaker, I had an opportunity 'to be in that part of t.."te Province t."tis SUI:'il'OOr and r think probably I appreciate what the hon. metr.ber is talking about much. more than I could last Summer. The department recognizes that

section of road- o~ it is not road now, but proposed

section of road-as being very important. As the hen. men-.ber indicates, it wou!d be a muc.n shcrter route to t..lte hospital. in St. Anthony, a much shorter route to t."le airport and so on. We still consider it a high priority. r would like to see ie on the 'shopping list'. I do not ~~ink that li5e is entirely made up at the moment. We are not certain how much roney is available in the overall general ag:eement with DP.E£ 2728

Nove!!'.ber 15, 1979 Tape Ho. 1089 N:-1 - 1 MR. BRETT: and a~til su=h time as we do it is rather difficult to make up ~~e total list. There are a lot of roads in this Prov·ince that are inportant. Certainly realizing hotv important it isrif DREE does not come across with the flli~ds or whatever 1 ! think in the future ~~is road will have to be built. I cannot say whether cr not it will be dane next year. That will depend en the priorities placed by government and of course what noney is available. :1R. SPEA:KER (Simms): A supplementary, the han. me~.ber for the Strait of Belle Isle. >1R.

ROBERTS: I thank the minister for what I ~~ink is a very fair ~~d a complete answer and I appreciate that. Could the minister tell us when we might expect some announcement as to the present DREE agreements, the road sub-agreement under the ger.eral development 3.greemcnt negotiated by my friend and colleague, the present Leader of the Opposition, the gentlen-an who ?ut i.mr.U:reds of million5 cf Collars into ti1e Province?

The roads agreement expires ':.he 3ls~. of March, t.he end of the current fiscal year, and there is no work contracted for except the work which is included in that agreement. ~[1at is only :our months a•,;ay 1 Gould the minister tell us when he expects- and I realize he r::~isht: r.ot: be able to say ':..<::! t.b.e day anJ I will not hold hi::t to ic because it is not entirely in his central in any event-:- but could the minister tell us when he expects that we might be in a 9osition to know what is to be in the next DREE roads agreement under the GDA and could he tell us,please,when we might expect accordingly ~o have some idea as to .,..hethcr any work will be done this year on that

section of the road through DREE? I ~~ not asking about the provincial ~~ney because he has talked about that; that 'Hill depend on the budget.. MR. SP~i\:KER: The hem. Hinister of Tn.nsj?ortation a:1d Com..'nunications. HR. BRETT: The bon. member is correct, ~tr. speaker. The Trans-Canada Hi1hway ag~eement terminates this year as well 1 and 2729

November 15, 1979 Tape No. 1089 N~ - 2 t.J.R, BP.ETT: there is approximately $18 million in that one and r think about $18 nillion or $20 million in DREE that has not been already contracted out. So we do have a fair number of dollars for next year. HR. ROBERTS: You are going to have a dropped balance. !1R. BRETT: Oh no. HR. ROBERTS: You are going to have all on a contract basis. MR. BRETT: That is right. It will be all under contrac-= next year so in actual fact the coming cons~uction season will see the end of both agreements.

I am sorry I cannot give the hon. member an answer as to when we can expect something fin.:ll from DREE 1 but certainly I would hope - of course, that is being negotiation by Inte~governme.r.tal J\ffai:::s more so t.:-tan by my depart:Ir'.ent. '1ihile I '"'auld expect to be in on the negotiations,it will be done by that depart..tnent. But ! would hope that before t.he budget comes down in :·!arch we will have some kind of an ans•..Jer. HR. SPEAKER: A final sup9lcmentarJ, the han. merJber for the Strait of Belle Isle. HR. ROBERTS: Thank you. Does the Premier - did you want to say something. FREH!E.?.

PECKFORD: No, I wanted to respond and to follow up on what the Minister of Transportation and Ccrnmunications saj'S. :.::;.. ROBERTS: By all n:ea."ls. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. P~1~£R ?ECKFOP~: I have a meeting arranged with the Minister of DREE far November 26th. t.o review the . ..,.hole GDA thing 1 and in line with consultations that I had with the Minister of Transportation and Cornmuniciations co begin forr:lal negotiations directly with Ottawa on a new roads agreement. So that will be part,as will three or four other packages of OREE agreements which are now on the go. Z730

Noverr.ber 15, 1089 Tape No. 1089 ~SM - 3 HR. SPEAKER (Sirr.ms): A final supplementary, the hon. ~ember for the Strait of Belle Isle. 1-!R. ROBERTS~ Thank you. I thank the ?re~er and he has added to his colleague and I am grateful. Could the ?remie~ perhaps 1 indicate.,.. the meeting begins in November: he is seeing Z731.

Noverr.ber 15, 1979 Tape 1090 PK - 1 l1r. Roberts: Mr.~acKay, the minister, the Bnd of this month - could he tell us whether he expects to have a new roads agreement in place in time to have work begin this coming year? Now the minister, I think, has made it clear that the SlB millions or $20 millions will all be under contract. That is •.:hat •,.;e have ah;ays done to get the contracts out and then, you know, the 'v:ork •.1ill be carried on - we Co not drop the balance, we will not let the federal people have their Sl8 million back, thank you very nuch. Hr. Crosbie might like it, but he is not goin'J to get it.

But if it is not commit-cod by the 31st. of March 1 then it goes back to Ottawa, it is a dropped balance. Sut can the Premier tell us whether we might expect: some announcement- you kno""', January, February, Harch, scmeti.<oe after this negotiating process_ whether -.;e might expect some announcer.,ent about the road around Hare Bay? !·J.R. SPEAKER {SD1HS): The hon. the Premier. ?PZM!ER PECKFO?D: Yes, Hr. Speaker, it is :ny desire and the desire of government to ensure that we have a reads agreement in place before the bri~ging down of the Provincial Budget in ~2rch or late FeCruary. So that is our target.

And that is one of the reasons why I want t.o meet with !"'.r. :O!acKay as to set up some timetable now, and to get the agreements that are ea~y to sign, i.f you will, in the sense that we all recoqnize 1 like roads and so on is a standard kind of a procedure, in light of many other DREE agreerc.ents that could l:::e ther<?:. The DREE Roads Agreement is ~ore like an operational agreement now, it has l:::ecome1 as oPf:csed to some of the other agreements that the Leader of the Opposition knows about. AN HON. !1E.!18ER: (Inaudible). P?L'1IER PECKFORD: Exactly.

And therefore we are desirous of ensuring that tr~t is done by ?ebr~ary or March at the latest. MR. SPEAKER: The !"\on. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. Z732

November 15, l9i9 Tape 1090 PK - 2 ~!R. RIDEOUT: :1y supplenentary is to the Ninister of Transportation and Cor.:::unications (Hr. Brett). t·<e in the othc:r part of that Northern area certainly ::ave no abjection to and are very supportive of the efforts to build a road do.,..n through Hare Bay to connect in with the St.

Anthony Airport, but we also have the concern of the possible downgrading at what we refer to as the Cross Country Road from Plu:n Point,fifty-t-..:o miles through to Englee. .~~d I would ask the minister now ~f he could give an assurance to the House that that road will not be downgraded, but rather it will be upgraded and that it will continue to be a priority for reconstruction and paving, that is, the Cross Country Rnad? MR. SPEAKER (SI!--!.'"tSJ: The hen. Ninister of 7ransportation and Communications. :.m. BRETT: No, Hr. Speaker, there is no intention of downgrading that road.

I drove over tr~t one this Surr~er as well. I ·,.,as surpri3ed. It is not all that bad 1 really. :!:tis a road that could very easily brought up-it is a bit narrow-but it is a road that could be very easily brought up to standard, and my intentions would be, if not to :;ave it, then at least to ;:.:ut some sort of a cru<.">hcd gravel top on it. There is not a lot of traffic en that road, but we consider it, you know, an i~portant road, and certainly we will not be downqrading it. The hon. Leader of the Opposition, Mr.

Speaker, I t-muld like to refer the han. the Premier to the document, the hydro discussion paper on bilateral issues of September 5, which cernes tw mind as a result of his references to a peoding meeting -.4ith D1?£E. I have a number Z733

:ioveo.J::,er 15, 1979 Tape :::o. 1091 SD - 1 >!P.. 0.

J<\:UESON: of ques~ions, as ~any as Your Honour will permit. t1ay I ask, firs~ of all, in connec~ion ·,;ith roads, since t.'le original agrecr..ent by nutt..:.al consent was confined to txu."lk highways ar~ to what were duscribed, I believe, offic~ally as trunk roads at t.1a~ time with the Province to assume the r~sponsibility for secondar; roads, and I t~ink again I a.':l. using t."le correct e.-,.:pression, do the corn;nent.s today suggest, and, incidently, I am all in favour of it if that is the case, ~~at the goverr~ent is proposing to seek federal assistance on ~ighways other t.'l.a.n ,..hat are called in the formal agreenent' s trunk highways? :-t.q.

SPEl'.K.ER: ('A.- Sir:.ns) PREZ1IER PEC~OP.D; The non. the Premier. Yes, !-1r. Speaker, the answer to that question is yes. :: t.'-link t:.he reason 'Why I have askt:d fer the :neetir.g ·..;ith Mr. !~acKay is to review U1<a whole general develcpmer.t agreenent, ,;md 1first of all,to tty to identify how :1r. Hac~:ay and the new federal gcverrr.ent preceives its role in this regard and its whole role of DREE in uewfoundland and Labrador over the next four or five years c;c ~'-lat we .::ould sort of fit that into our overall five year plan as well for ~~e various areas in which DREE gets involved in.

So it is our desire now as we get r.tany of the- what shall I call t.>0:~? - major trunk roads, if cot all, done in t.~e Province,to look at some other verJ critical areas which have to l:::e addressed and ... nich nave a high capital cost on ~~em. So we do net tie ourselves to ~~e criteria that. has applied hithcrtofore 1 but look at some char.ging of t.'u! criteria to enco:::pass and accommodate addition reads .,,:hich can be classified in tlte old sense as being secondary roads. ~~ u._J~~1: !-1It. SPE.i\~JG:R: Opposition. Scpplenentary, :tr ~ Speaker. SuppleoentarJ, the hon.

Leader of ~"'.e I understand tr.e ?renier very well,but I think the FOint tha~ ~ w~s seeking to make is that the justificaticn or special t:.reat=ent for Newfoundland was on the basis of the necessit:.y for upgrad~ng of what '.tere described as being t..i1ese ~ain arteries. And there was a considerable ::onstit:.utional agrli!:".'~nt,as I recall it,as to fedaral responsibility once one got. away from t::ese kinds of :::-o<Jds. 2734

:Jcvernber 15, l ?79 7-lpe ~lo. 1091 SD - 2 :-:..rt. P. JAHI£50~1: as. asking t.'le Pre.·-:uer ,.;hether in fact:. he is concerned that: :::er;1aps qoir-.g .:1.:ter fr;yJeral f~nding in tbac direction night possibly reduce his leverage or b<..~r:;ainir,g fOWcr in tert'.s of, let us say, a 90/10 agrce::mnt on tile l'r<lr.s•C3.nada Highwa:t 1 or a Trans-Labradcr Highway?

In other words, ·..:ou.i.d it :Oe, and I am not asking him to disclose strategy 3.t: chis stage, but I suggest fro::~ experience t.hat. it may well turn out tc be the case that ~Iewfour,dland' s 3.rgu:r:ents ::nay be nuch stronger if we work upon those tl1ings which can be seen to have a SL?'Qng federd.l componen1: rather '::.han opening up a situation in '"'hich evert .tlrovincc in Canada coulJ. be asking fer 2735

November 14, 1979 Tape No. 1092 OW - 1 Y.R. D. JAMIESON: every ten or fifteen ~i1es of secondary road to be done by the Federal Government? MR. SPEAKER(S!M~

S) The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: ! understand the point very well. Also, Mr. Speaker, it depends on the nature of the road. words can become important or unimportant as you want and and how you want to categorize it. So it would have to be a pretty substantial rationale,but I would like to think that it is right for" the meeting that I am having now that is all things are sort of on the table or to get some view of how OREE perceives its role into the future as it relates to road ~reconstruction, and then to sit down with Mr.

Hazankowski ~ it relates to the T~ans-Canada 1 and which I have Already communicated to Mr. Xa%ankowski on that regard in getting a better deal on the Trans­ Canada and the Trans-Labrador Highway 1 and whether we can get •orne start on that.And that must be all part of,not a .. one year deal but a four or five or a six or seven or perhaps even longer kind of deal. We will have to examine 1 as we get how they perceive their roles, and how we perceive the strengths and weaknesses that we have 1 to put together various packages.

For example, I ~hink it is in the Labrador agreement,which hopefully we will be bringing in soon, the Coast of Labrador one,that we have a major component of road reconstruction in the Labrador area which one would think, normally,would come into the roads programmes. So it crosses over into various other agreements,as the Leader of the Opposition knows.

But his point is well taken and we have to examine the mandate and the way the Federal Government now perceive the role, the kind of strength they bring to the table, as to whether we can get some other additional roads,which are now secondary now in the roads agreement,and yet not jeopardize a better kind of split on the Trans-Canada Highway. MR. D. JAMIESON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 2736

Novenber 14, 1979 MR. SPEAKER: (SHll1S) of the Opposition. :.JR. D. JAMIESON: Tape Ho. 1092 DH - 2 A supplementary, the hen. Leader I again thank the Premier for his answer. I am essentially seeking information here and 1 inci- dentally, I hope in the process maybe providing a little out of my experience that may be useful. What ! would like to ask as a supplementary relating to roads again.

It has to do wiUh timing.! note again in the document to which I referred the Province's worries about the slowness of negotiations. r see a situation,regardless of the anxiety on both sides,where we may well be 1 for example, given the necessity for a federal budqet, given the necessity for a varie:y of other things,we may well be into 1980 before it is going to be possible to get something down ~n paper. Now in the interi~ 1 my colleague from the Strait of Belle Isle (!1r. Roberts) and others 1 and I have written the hon.

Pre~ier with regard to roads in my own area and discussed them with the Minister of Transportation and Communications (~r.

Brett) 1 I am seeking to get some clarification to ~he extent that it is possible now as to whether or ~ot ~he Government of Newfoundland is going to have to say, 1Well, look, we cannot tell the people of southeast Arm or the area that was referred to here or to some other area what we are going to do because we do not know what DREE is going to do~ In other words, are the two absolutely linked into tandem or will there be a specific and separate kind of, if you like, roads programme for the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, there·wi!l be a separate provincial roads programme for the Province for 1980 which is 100 per cent funded by the ?rovince, no question about that. And what that will be now will depend largely on how successful we are in accommodating additional roads which we might like to put into a DREE ag~eement and what ones are left over to be part of the provincial system. And it is opportune then that we get the 2737

November 14, 1979 Tape No. 1092 DW - 3 ?REMIER PECKFORD: meeting with Mr. ~acKay early on now so that we can gat that cleared away. The other thing is 1 and I appreciate the cancern,that we are trying to establish timetables with Mr. MacKay and the DREE people so that we all know where we stand and we give ourselves dates on which we try to meet respective agreements. And, of course, the roads programme is extremely important to us and will be one which we will want to see priorized for an agreement on by February.

But there will be a provincial roads programme in 1980; the extent of it and the ~number of road~ and the names of the roads will depend largely upon the DREE agreement and how well we can get on with that. The other provincial secondary roads then will become part of our own roads programme. MR. D. JAMIESON: Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 2738

November 15, 1979 !--L.Tt. SPEAS~?.: (Si::n:rs) queseion and answer. Tape 1093 EC - l We have time 1 I ":.hink, for one final The hon. t.'le Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: I appreciate again ~'lat there is a complexity here. What I wanted to t..ry to clarify a little nore than I have been able to do is whether or not, for instance, the Minister of Transportation and Communications, in his C.epartment, has a figure in view or a planning strategy for roads which are the responsibility of the Province and that will go ahead.

I say that because one of t..'1e worries that must also appear to members opposite is when roads whi~'l are clearly, or 1 let me say 1 highlY unlikely to be involved in any DREE agreement, people are saying, well, they have not been represented, there is no request for this kind of road. There is a confusion here which seems to boil down to the fact that we are not being specific enough about what is going to be asked for out of the federal government and what is unmistakably going eo have to be, in one way or ano~~er, the responsibility of the provincial government. I hope I have made myself clear. M..tt.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PEO<FORD: Yes, I thillk the Leader of the Opposition has made himself clear to me. Tb.ere are obviously quite a few roads around the Province which will never be under a DP.EE agreement. and 1 therefore, the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Brett) and his people, his engineers, have been ~orking up figures as to costs of ~at road reconstruction or the paving of t.'lat road, And ~'lat is well underway 1 as I understood it 1 from.the minister a couple of weeks ago, that there has been a fair amount of work done already and they are assilnilating additional information from survey crews t.hat were out around the Province.

So yes, there is a lot of that work done which we know are roads which have to be financed 100 per cent by the Province, and the only thing now that the 1-'..inister of Transportation is eager to know is how much money ~~at the Minister of Finance {Dr. J. Collins) and the President of Treasury Board (1-'.r. N. Windsor) and the other ministers Z739

November 15, l9i9 Tape 1093 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: are going ::.o allow him t.o ha.,.-e come next february as we get do'"'n to the real hamrr.er and tongs thing~ around the table of trying to hammer out a Budget. But there are, obviously, legitimate provincial roads which we know now, to all intents and purposes, will remain 100 per cent provincial, which we have to priorize, which we have to get costs on and which the minister then has to bring and haJ!";IOOr out with me in Cabinet over the nexe few nonth.s.

So I do not think we should- and I agree with the Leader of the Opposition - in every case if a delegation comes in from a certain place in the Province and I know in my own mind t.,at that is 100 per cent provincial and we will not get it for the next ten years into a DP.EE agreement- well, then it is only fair to say, 'This is 100 per cent provincial. We are going to be responsible if it goes ahead; we are going to be responsible if it does not go ahead.' MR. SPEA.JU:R: (Simms} Order, please~ The time for Oral Questions has expired. NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Premier. PP.EHIE.R PEQ(FQRD: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice ~~at I will on tomorrow ask leave co introduce a bill entitled, "An Act:. To Provide For An Advisory Council On The Status Of Women". SOME. HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR \'11iiCH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, this is a - SOME HCN • MEMBERS : Oh, oh~ MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DINN: It arises out of a question I was asked during Oral Question period by the hen. t:.he member for Bonavista North {!>lr. Stirling) 'Nith respect to people who got in touch with him. 2740

;1ovember 15, 1979 Tape 1093 EC - 3 M.~. DWN: Tne item was on C.S.C. a night or so ago. Just to inform the han. rember, I did find his letter. As a matter of fact, I found fifteen letters that were in the bottom of a drawer in rey depa..."t..-ent, and I have to go out and apologize to all those fifteen people for not getting back to them; his happened to be one of tb.cn. A."l HON. MEMBER: SOME HON • MEHBERS: Have you checked the other drawers? Oh, oh! 2741.

Nover..ber 15,1979 Tape r-:o. 1094 l\H-1 :•!R, D!NN: It happened at u point wr:.en He were moving into the trepartrr.ent over there and we had quite a few files around in the office. I did, on behalf of the hen. metrZer, telex the Minister of Employment and Immigration with respect to those people and hope to have a reply for him in the next day or t\-:o, ~R. S?FAKER: {Si~

s) DR. CO!.!,!NS: The hen. ~inister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, the hen. metrher for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) asked me a question ~~e other day and I said I wccld get the information. His question was, •can the minister tell us how much extra equalization money will ccme?" And he was referring to how much each extra dollar en the price of a barrel of oil td.ll hring into the pockets of the Treasury of the Province. Mr.

Spea~er, there arc es~imates given as to the amount of extra revenue which will accrue to the energy sector from one dollar on the barrel and ~~e equivalent increase in ~~e price of natural gas. It Cepends on production and so on and so forth but it is estimated to be around saoo ll'illion to S900 million in total which will accrue to ~~e energy sector from ~~e cne dollar increase. MR. ROBERTS: :m., COLLINS: For each dollar? tor each dollar increase.

Now under the present arranger.'tent 1 forty-five per cent goes to the companies, producing companies, forty-five per cent to the producing provinces, and ten per cent to the federal gover~~ent mainly through inco~e tax levy. Now t.l-te Province of ~lewfoundland will get two sources of revenue fr~m that. It will get 1 firstly 1:r.oney under the equalization formula from t} e producing provinces. HR. FDBERTS: Normal equalization. DR. COLL!!lS: Yes,normal equalization formula.

One half of the amount of extra revP.nue which will so to the producing provinces will go into t!':e cquali::L!.ticn fomula and en t.\;at basis it 2742

:rover.t-er 15,1979 Tape ~:o. 1094 T.H-2 DR. C'JI.LI~lS: would !:e something ; i>;_e Sl80 to $200 :rdllion which HOUld s-o into .that

part cf t~e eq'..!alization formula. And en the basis of our population, the prcporticO of our population to the population of Car:ad,·Hhich is a little aver 2.4, I think it is, 2.4 per cent,t.l-tat wculd mean tve would get 2.4 per cent of t.~at Sl80 to S200 million or $4 to SS rnillior:. ~<!R, ROSER'!'S: So every dollar t.~at oil goes up is an extra $4 to $5 million far the goverr.t:tent. OP, COLLP-15: From that. :-lew in addition to that, •..;e wi! • also get a certain an>ount en the basis of the increased corporate income tax t>hich the fadernl government will collect.

It is difficult to get an exact figure en this because there are cer~ain offsets - !I:R ROBERTS: good at paying little tax. DR. COLLIHS: !·!R. RCE-E?TS: DR. COLLIHS: The oil companies are pretty Yes. {inaudible) write-offs. We contacten t.,e feCeral !Jepartrnent of Fi:::ance and th€:y are unable ~o predict with any exactituCe what ~~at will come to, so I cannct give a precise fiT~re on that . But thera certainly will be same positive impact on the Provin~e's revenues from that aspect to.

Now the last point ! should bring out is this, that that increase in revenue to tr.e provincial Treasury on t.,e basis of the normal equalization thing will not continue for every extra dollar increase because there is a certain cap; after a certain point of time a cap comes on, MF', ROBERTS: If not 1 0ntario starts collecting et.ualization. _JR. COLLINS: Hhen the revem:e from resources reach one third t.l-te total equalization, the cap cernes on anC that \-till likely be reached when the increase in the cost of cruCe oil is an extra three or four dollars so that-the maxi~um ~,at we would likely get in 2743

t:overrJ:er 15,1979 Tape ~Jo. 1094 AH-3 L'R. COLL!i'lS: $15 million. the end result would be a.t additional, say Vie are unlikely, very unlikely, unless t.'-le formula is changed-and that might well be because it is up for review in 1982-but if it stays as is ,it is unlikely that we would get more than a maximum $15 million out of the ordinary equalization fcnrula no matter what the price goes up to. t<1.R. ROBERTS: tf the price goes up say $4 the government of this Province ·..:ill get an extra $15 million. DR. COLLINS: Right. Then if i~ goes up another $10 we will still get our $15 million. !-!R.

HEARY: Will that be used to offset the increase in electricity rates? DR. COLLTiiS: policy. HR. NEARY: general revenue. :~R. SPEl\Y.EP: (Simms) of Mines and EnerTJ· t-!P .• EAHRY: That ... ·ill be a matter of gcvernrnent I see. It will jus~ go into Order, please: The hen. P~nister !,tr, Speaker, I have t.~e answer hr=re to c;:uestion no. 28 on t.h~ Order Paper enquiring 2744

November 15, l9i9 Tape No. 1095 :-1:1 - l MR. BARRY: about the money expended on the preparation of Nev;foundland' s offshore case. I might say it is purely coincidental but t~e draft f~ctum just today has been completed and put to bed in the event it \4ilS ever needed for t."le carry ·::m of t.,.at case. 'de do not expect it will be. HR. NEA..!tY: any - MR. MORGAN: ;.tR. BA..rtP .. Y: You will not be spending Unless the Liberals get in power in Ottawa. I would also say that we probably would nat have gotten the confirmation of ownership 'tJithout the work that we have had done on this case. MR. NEARY: HR.

SPEAKER (Sirr.ms): Have we got to start counting the - Order, please! ORDERS OF THE DAY: Hotion, the hen. the Premier to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting The Reorganization Of Certain Government Depart.:nents And !-tatters Related Or Incidental Thereto," carried, (Bill no. 65) On motion, a bill, "An Act Respect The Reorganization Of Certain Government Depart.-nents fuld Maxters Related Or Incidental Thereto," read a first time, ordered read a second time o~ tomorrow. HR. !1ARSF2U.L: !1R. SPEAY.EP..: ;.tR. ROBERTS: Motion 2. Does the hon. Presider.t mean ~otion 3? Hold on now we had 2, yes 3. Hotion, the han.

Hinister of Finance to int:=-oduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Service (Pensions)Act," carried. (Bill No. 64). On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Service (Pensions;' Act," read a first ::ime, ordered read a second t~me on tomorrow. (Bill No. 64) :.ffi. MARSHALL: Order, 2, Bill No. 1. :1R. S?EAKER: Qrder 2, Bill No. 1, continuing debate second reading, "An Act To Reform The Law Respecting The Property Of Harried Persons." Z745

November 15, 1979 Tape No. 1095 NH - 2 MR. SPEAKER {Simms): The hon. Hinister of Justice. If the hen. minister speaks now he will close the debate. M..'O.. OTTENll'EIHER: Hr. Speaker, I intend to go on briefly, through what I consider ~~e more important reservations, criticisms, objections of various aspects of the bill_ I think it is quite true that everybody in the House is in favour of the principle of thu bill, there have been some reservations with respect to certain aspects of it-and to review what appeared to be the more cogent or strongly felt of those.

The han. member - and I will go in t~e order in which bon. members spoke - :;ince I a.rn no longer in the Chair I am not always £a;niliar ·..;ith the aistricts of ~'le han. rnemtlers ana I just nave them down here by names rather than by districts. New the hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thorns) raised ~ n~~r of points ar"d I will refer to certainly sc~e a= them there. The hen. gentleman dia Po~nt out that the act could give an opportunity for some people to marry, divorce, marry, divorce and sort of pick up fifty per cent each time. I suppose cherQ are obviously ?OSsibilities of these things happening.

I do not think it is ve~y probable. There is also a discretion under the court,

section 20 of the act docs give an area of judicial discretion and I suppose there is no piece of legislation which can plug every possible eve~tuality or protect people from their own lack of reflection. I think that would be impossible. MR. SPEAKER: Belle Isle. t-'.R. 2DBERTS: The hen. member for the Strait of I listened to the question, I do not disagree wi~, his comment but I would simply ask him two things, first of all would he feel soch conduct in his opinion 1.1as unconscionable because 1 of course 1 one has to discharge that burden and seccndly,the minister says it is not possible to plug every loophole, He may wish to refer to a

section that has to be co~~ented on in the House of Assembly Member~· Pension Act which says - the House of Assembly Pensions Act obviously provides for re~inder over to the surJiving Z746

November 15, 1979 Tape No. 1095 NH - 3 H?... ROBERTS: spouse, the Wl.dow or widower as the case may be, of a merr.ber otherwise is entitled to recei·,re the pensicn 1 but .. ..tS an interesting clause that the spouses must have been married for I think it is six months, obviously put in to prevent the situa"t.ion where one ll".arries an ~!i.i\, or former 1-'!Hh receiving a pension en his death bed, you knew and so on. So the minister may want to corr~ent on that in that light. :·tR. SPEAKER {Sirr.ms): The hen. Minister of Justice. HR. OTTENHEI!1E?.: Actually on the second point raised by the han. the gentlem.a.n, obviously there is a difference in the policy there .:lnd in this 2747

November 15, 1979 Tape 1096 PK - 2 Xr. Ottenheimer: ;:::articular Act. I ·,;auld think that nobody' s ~ind really focused on that House of Assembly particular provision. HR. RCEERTS : I do not know why it is in the House of Assembly Act. MR. OTTENHEHlER: No,actually, I think one should not formulate policy on top of one's head but I a~ inclined to think to be consistent with this Act that certainly a serious thouo:;ht be given ~o a revision of the previous one. i-!R. ?DBERTS: death bed marriages. :1_q. CT?ENHEI:-!ER: Yes, why should we nat be allowed to make Right.

And, you v~ow, if the time factor of marriase is not the overall factor, in general, then certainly it sr~uld not be for only fifty-two citizens L~ the Province. SC!<!E EON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! Hell more than fifty. 11?.. CTTENHEIMER: With respect to the first comment I think the hon. gentleman is quite right there, certainly such repeated activity could ~ell be regarded as unconscicnable. Another r.!atter the han. gentle!nan !-!R.

RCEERTS: I can n~~e at least - referred to - I am not quoting exactly-just a general idea of what he said•that the Act could encourage two pecple to live togethe= rather than to marry. F~r exa~ple, one person has a lot of property and does not want to have to share it, then why get married? Of course, I would point out, and I am sure the han. gentleman is aware, that partners may contract out and by their own domescic contract estalish whatever economic relationship they wish to. So I certainly do not think that this legislation in any way encourages people to live together rather than in marriage.

I ~~uld put it another way and ~~uld say that the legislation will or should impress upon people that they should give careful consideration to the economic aspects of rnarr iage. Again! say what I said in introducing the bill, not that anybody is claiming that tte economic aspects are the most 2748

Ncve.'!lber 15, 1979 Tape 1096 PK - 2 .'1r. Ottenheir:1er: important aspects, certainly not the only ones, not the most important ones, but that, in fac~, there are eccncmic as~ects and people should te aware of them. The han. gentl~~n also pointed cut that according to

Section 4 {l), suggested that if the matrLT-onia! ~orne is r~t occupied ty both partners to the marriage on the commencement of the Act the house is not within the definition of ~ ~atrimonial ho~e. !>!R. ROBERTS : That is the point the Law Society brought up. :-m. OTTENHEIMER: And also related to that or at least, to me, it appears r2lated t~ that - the hon. gentleman does not think that the Act gi•n!s due recognition to a situation where a partner has acquired property afeer separation,and acquires a lot of assets after a separation or a divorce.

I think the only ccmrnent reallv I can make there is chat all legislation when a new, if you wish, if one wishes 1 legal order is brought in_has to !lave a starting time and it has to have a cutoff time, and as a matter of policy, you ~~ow, the acc~~ulation of matrimonial assets has to stop at scmetirne,and certainly it ~~uld appear that separation is a logical tine, and crat assets - !>1R. RCBERTS: They are excluded then, are they not? t-!R. OTTE!H-!ED!ER: Yes. Yes.

Ar.d assets which one or tr.e other forr.:er partners might acquire llfter separation, that really they should not be regarded as matrirr.onial assets. The han. gentl~~an pointed au~ ~hat under the legislation a juCge could divide ~he assets, but this may =arce an order to liquidate, and therefore there would be a fifty-fify sharing of those assets. In other words, where liquidation was required. Of course, this is only where the two people do ~ot agree. It is discretionary .

And if liquidation might be regarded as unfortunate. certainly in this k-- nd of a situation where there is nat agreement it would appear certa ;1.ly in most =ases preferable to have a fifty-fif~y sharing than a 100 per cent zero sharing. The han. gentlenan pointed out that anybody in the Province who has a will already would now have to have the will Z749

}lcver=ilier 15, 1979 Tape 1096 PK - 3 Hr. Ottenheirr:er: revised. And that ~~uld not, in my opinion, be t:te case. Nhat

Section 42 does, it states tl'.at people do not have to conform with the technicalities of The I"Jills Act with regard to an agre~~ent under this bill, the domestic contract does not have to conform with the technicalities of The Nills Act. And the final matter the hen. gentleman referred to, or at least the final ~etter he referred to which I keep referring to 1 pcinted out the position of a minor, and that two people might have to hire a lawyer or make up a domestic contract or a marriage contract. I should point out that The Solemni=ation Of ~arriage Act permits a person of sixteen to marry. And

Section 36 of this Act permits someone of sixteen or older but under the age of ~ajority to make a w~rriage contract or a separation agreement with the approval of the court. And by 2750

r:ovember 15, 1?79 Tape :1o. 1097 SD - l :,1R.

OTTL:mEI!ft:R: so do~ng then in <:!.nswt!r ;;;o the next cn.1ery 1 can a lawy<O!::: accept. ins t:ruct.ior.s =ro::; a :.Unor. c~rt:.ainly, the ;;osition !Jlerc is that since t.hc act entitles a parzon under the age mat.urit:.y, gives hi:n t..'oe capacity to contrilct in a sense of a damescic contract, it uust naturally follow t.hat they have the ca,!Jacity to give instructions with respact to ~'oat contract and, of course, all of this is done with the approval of t;1e co:.u-ts and so since the court approval is there I think that is the area of protection. 'f·he hon. cember for LaPoile (:A.r. s. iieary) nentioned whac ile thought i.::; ehe nec~szity or t.'l.e benefits to t:.c dii;:riveC frcm input from nany sources and all I can say to that is that we have, in fact., nad J.::put. and opinion fron oa.r.y sources.

T!l.e hen. gentleman also referred to t.'le educational progratr.rr":! ar.d he was kind er:ough a.t that:. time to allow ae to state briefly that wa do plan a quite comprehensive educacional rrogran~e and by that we are not meaning only t..'1e publicity given to the debate in t.'le House but the use of radio, television, newspapers ar.d r;reparation.of, hopefully, a clear readable pamphlet or booklet explaining the main thrust of ~~e act.

So it cart:.ainly is planned t. .. at an ample tir.e before t:.his were to become operative July 1st, 1980,... t.'1ere would, in fact, be sucn an infom.atior.al and educatiar.al progra:nrne. The hen. gentleman from Xount Scio wondered whether we should r.ot have a civil marriage ceremony. :.m. E. ROBERTS: ~io, St. John's :1a::th, I believe. ..... -------- MR. OTTE:mEIHER: St • .John's :~ort:.h, sorry, yes. The Squire of >~unt Scic. MR1. OTTEHHEIMER: The s~~ire of Mount Scio,my friend tell me ,but the mem.Ler fc:: St. John's Uorth - ,K. ::.. ROBERTS: He has a connection with Hou:1t Scio.

It is a very savoury one. :1P.. OTTE:IHE!Y-ER: - wondered if I understood nihl correctly whether civil marriage should not be car.datory, put forward the point that people would have a religious se:-vice if ::.hey so wished but that tilis 2751.

Hoven.ber 15, 1979 Tape ~io. !097 SD - 2 regard.:::d as th<Z! ::1oral as:., ect: ar.d a ci?il r:1arriage - whac you ""'Ould really be doing there is saying you must have civil marriages. ~NEA~_: >tR. ~f>B~'lT§_: And •:ny should we? (Inaudible) have t:o have a civil r.arriage. Yes.

If p8ople wish to have a church ceren:ony and that suffices, · .. ·hy should they really be required t.o go ~~rough additional,if on~ wishes, bureaucracy or why should the state really be t:.he only one? 'tie providu t:he civil :r..J.rriage as the alternative to people who cannot or for some reason r,i;;; r.o:: wish to have a religious serv1.ce. Yes. But certainly it is not tile government's V1.ew that it. sho'.!lci be mandatory. Hon. t:<etr.bcrs are probabl:! aware :iF.. E. ROB.EP.TS: ?1-::t. OTTEHIF'TMER: It is in France, I believe.

Yes, I think and I ':hink in a nur:".be.:- of countries in Europe, for historical reasons, tte old antics. :'!R.. E. ROBERTS: :1R. O'rTE:nrr.L'-'.ER: be moving in that direction. We have not haci a revolution yet. So I really do not. ~~ink that: we wil~ The hon. member for Te.:-:::a ~;ova {:1r. T. Lush) pointed out or asked the question, "'tihy not havt:: equal ownership of a matrimonial hot:<e acquired only during the marriage?" In other words, that distinction :.here, ·,.rhich other :.on. rne:nbers mentioned as well.

And really ~e only reply I can give there is that essentially this is a policy decisio~ and t..'lat is1 that the matri::lonial home is, if one wishes of such a nature so integral or i::'.port.ant to the rnatrir.onial situation t."Ja t a policy has been decided that no ma t.ter how acquired. or when acquired this special legal order of the :::atrimonial hor.1.e would become i.'ll!l".ediately operative.

And t..'w same han. gentleman for Terra Nova pointed out cr asked why the rnatrir:1onial horne would not. be part of th.e rnatrir.cnial assets, ~sset3 in t.~c deferred sharing concept. ~nd essentially the answer 2752

~;avei:'lber 15, 1979 ':'ape :io. 1097 SD - 3 t-1R. O'rTENhE!:.t.ER: ~here is the s~e, that an a policy C:.ecisian ~he :natri::tanial home. has been given a, i£ one 'wishes to call it, privileCge-1 position, I SUf,pose thJt. is probabl:z.• as accurace enough, as accura-::.e a term as any - a priviledged pasit.ion distiilCt from the ather matters. The sa.ue gentleman also asked the general question, "Do ;Hlls now all have to be made over again?" And t.r:e reply there is the sane as I i:tade with respect to a COtl."llent made by his colleague.

And t:I'\at is tha~ ~h~ reference to the \'iills 1\ct in this legislation is to make it clear and precise that do~~stic contracts ~nt.ered into do n?t have to follow ~he technical r~irernent of the ~ills Act. ;m. E. ROBERTS: But th.e minister will agree t.'1at t.'1is act has the effect of c!"langing every \-:111 J:,ecause it is c:.anging the O'Hnership of every piece of property owned by a married person. Yes. MR. E. R03ERTS: Then every :·rill in ~rewfoundland sr.ould be reviewed? :-tR.

OT':ENhEI>l.EP.: \'Jell, put it this way, I do net ti<ink it. is necessary that every Will be done o•Jer again tut, obviously, it O.as an effec-::.. one can only tlill what one O\..'r,s - MR. E. ROE£F.'I'S: :-1R. OTTENHE!:-!ER: :1.1!1.. S:. ROBERTS: Yes, and one does not own - - the entire - a lot of men who think they own t.'1ings or a lot of 1<.0r.:.en possibly who think they own things will no longer cwn them once t.'1is act becoffies effective. :1R. OTTENHEIMER: ~E. ROBERTS: :1R._ OTTENHEIHER: Yes, right. ~..:;) dispute there. Ar~ that ought to be widely realized.

Yes, and that is a point which should be made fairly -::lear in any inforr::at:.ional and educational progra.':'!I:le. ::!.!!.• E. rl.OBERTS: It is not necessarily wrong. It is just sL~ply a point t.hac ~any people, : suspect 1 do not grasp that yet. 2753

November 15, 1979 MR. OTTENHEnl.ER: there. MR. NEARY: Tape 1098 EC - 1 Yes, we are certainly in agreement (Iuauc:l.Plcl a set fee for lawyers for drawing up these Wills, say $10 or something like that? Iffi. OTTE!iHEIHER: It woulC not be for me to do. I do not think I have the authority to prescribe those fees, MR. ROBERTS: Yes, the hen. gentleman would, or the House would. MR. OTTENHEIHER: The House would. I t.~ink that would require a change in the Law Society Act, but we could certainly do that.. MR. NEARY: Bring the law on (inaudible} allowing the body of the union to advertise, let them advertise their fees.

HR. ROBERTS: HR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. ?.OEERTS: who is advertising. MR. NEARY: HR. OTTENHEIMER: sure, they are all for it. Well, that may well be developing. But no action taken against the gentiecan {Inaudible). Well, I will put it this way, I am thinking of watching t.~e situation very, very closely. This situation may be developing now. MR. ROBERTS: There has been no move made against the one member of the Law Society who is advertising. More power ':.o him! MR. OT'l'ENHEI!1ER: If a thing happens organically or in a natural process, then probably there is no need for intervention. MR.

NEARY: saying that they can do it. A."l HON. MEMBER: MR. OTI'ENHEIMER: watch. AN HON, MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: bench if (inaudible). (Inaud.ible) but a law Yes, right on. It is so~~~~ing that we will certainly Good man! Is the minister prepared to tell the Z754

November 15, 1979 Tape 1098 EC - 2 MR. OTTEl'l"HEIME.R~ l think we are getting somewhat off the track. The hon. gentleman has a way of doing that. I am glad he does not run a railway station! MR. STIRLING: The hon. gentleman {inaudible) good advice though, that everybody should examine their Wills as a result (inaudible). MR. OTTENHEIMER: no disputing trua. t. MR. ROBERTS: MR. crrTEHHEit1ER: Certainly, that is true. There is And he is not even a lawyer. The hon. the member for Bonavista North. (Mr. Stirling} raised the general question, Does ~~e act go far enough?

Should there be an ongoing study of this in general? And on the second part of it, certainly, there should be an ongoing study. I guess all important legislation should be the object of such an ongoing study, and certainly, it is our intention that this will be as well. Does the act go far enough? All I can say is some people will argue it goes too far; o~~er people will argue it does not go far enough.

And when you bring in what I call a legal refonn, a law reform, a social reform, then obviously there are going to always be those two sides cf the pendulum, and I think what the go\rernment has done is, on a policy matter has determined this. In the gover.tr.ent' s opinion, it is the best we can do right now. Now, the general question of whether it goes too far or does not go far enough - MR. POBERTS: In any particular aspect? HR. OTT:ENUEIXER: In general, I think. A number of han. members may be (inaudible), HR. ROBERl'S: (Inaudil::.le) they think it is the right way to go or they ...,.ould not bring it in. MR.

OTTENHEIHER: Yes, sure. The hon. gentleman from Bonavista North {Mr. Sti=ling) also b=ought up and referred to a very serious problem 1 2755.

November 15, 1979 Tape 1098 zc - 3 i-lP.. OT'IZtftiZli!ER: and that is of hardships in ~4rriages, family circumstances as the result of use of alcohol - wife beating and related areas - and said, I think quite properly so, that this legislation wil.l not solve tb.at problem. And, you knew, I a."tt certainly not:. minimizing the importance of that problem- and it will not because it is a different area - I am not minimizing the importance of the problem and the need for probably this House and for society to pay muc.,_ more attention to those areas, but it is outside the ambit of this bill.

And then the final speaker, at least - I do not thir~ ~~e final speaker, but the final speaker who had reservations or suggestions for alteracion or {inaudible) to call them - going AN HON. XEMBER: (inaudible). MR. OTTEl-1HEIMER: If ~,e han. gentleman is talking about ~ 'l'he hon. gentle~an from the Strait of 2elle Isle (Mr. Roberts), a.~d the hen. gentlem~ referred to the definition of a child in

Section 21 {a} and the words used 'a settled intention' and pointed out ~~at this ~~ght be vag~e, could cause a lot of litigation, suggested the possibility, ac least, of a declaration being used. We have had a look at this. Act:ually 1 here we have taken the te::U.nology of the Ontario Act verhat:.im there and to the best of our knowlP.dge, it has not caused any problems in Ontario. AN HON. MEMEER: P.R. OTTE!iHEIME:R: As yet. As yet.

The hon. gentleman poL~teC out with respect to the number of apartments whic.~ could be included in a mat.ri:nonial home and I do not mind saying this has been changed a couple of times during ~~e past number of months, you know, whether it is one, t\o/O or ~1-J.ree. And obviously, any number is arbitrary. As tile situation now is, it would include up to t~ree. A."l HON. ME}taER: Three houses? MR. OTTENHZIME R: Three apartments in one dwelling. And the purpose - what is 2756

Sove!l'l::er 15, i979 Tape t;c. 1099 AH-1 endeavoured to be accor.~lished is that if you were given a dwelling, let us say a family living on the rr.ain floor 1 there are a nurber perhaps with two base~ents apartments and then sc>,~e with one ai:'Jartment upstairs so then you get into th=ec c;;:art~ents, ::-"len you can go Corn to b~o apart:r.ents anC go dcv:n to on~ apar~~~r.t. HP.. PDBERTS: >ihy net S('me "'orCs that t.,e primary purpose is t!'le Cwellir.g of the rr.atri:;-.onial horne? :-1?. O'M'EtniE'IMEP: Ciscreticnarj - !·tF-. RCBERTf: words than are in the act. Cwelling with up to three apart.~ents. MR.

ROBERTS: I think under certain I t.~ink I could find better i\s it is nc·u1 it includes a That could include a co~ercial dwelling and that goes right against the principla. I think ~"tat t~at is precluded. ! t:.hir.k the intention tl:-.ere is a Ct.:elling in which the matrimonial couple live J:ut which also has apartments, O'!:::viously any nurrl:er is arl:i trar!. (!nauC:ible) HR.

O'l'!'FN!-lE!:".EP: The han. gentlcn:an ·,..as of the opinion that the bill should not apply to a matrimonial acquired before marriage. ~nC here ! am sure the hon. gentleman knows ·•hat my reply will be and otviously there are argun:ents which have been put up to that effect.

This is essentially again a palic! decision ~;d that is t}lat t.'le matrimonial home no matter how a-::quired or vhen acquired - sometimes, of course1 a heme could be acquired in ccnter-.plation of marriage or there could be a mortgage with it anC then the married couple would help pay cff ':he mortgage. l>.nd obviously t."tere are cases '"here a person may purchase or inherit a horne, get married anC then it becomes a rnatrirr.cnial horne and perhaps afte:- a short period they are no longer toget.~er and as this legislation reads no matter how acquired or when acquired. 2757

~lovePJ::er 15,1979 Tape !lo, 1099 1\H-2 YR. OTI'E!·mEI:-!ER: '!'he cnly answer there is that it is a policy C.ecision. I think there are always going to be, certainly when cne wishes radical change or a major change, a sig~ificant c~ange in social legislation of this kind, t..I-J.ere are alHays going to be inconveniences and t...l"len some of t..'1.em real hardships. I think there will always be some hardships. .1-!R. F~"'l3ERTS: though. ~R. ':liONS : now before we pass this act? ~R. OTTENHE!!~R: .1-!R. THOMS: n~d before we pass this act? MP..

OTTrtmEI~R: It is a bad policy Gecision Can we not plug that locphole I am sorry? Can we not plug that loophole No. The policy is t"at t:h<~ matrimonial heme no matter when or how acquired l::ecomes it:ll"'ediately an operative fac~or. MR. PDBFRTS: rectify this. !<!R. OTTEt!HZ!}n"R: (Inaudible) Yes. Yes. The o~~er factor the hen. gentleman referred to was ~hat in

Section 20 the terms grossly unjust or unconscionable should be eliminated and the term reason~le put in Obviou~lv nnP car. see strong arguments to that effect and again the only answer I can give ~~are is that it is essentially a poli~/ decision that there be a strong onus to upset that euual partnership, that the onus to do so be more than that it ~e ~~reasonable,but that ~~e onus be that it be either grossly unjust or unconscionable. Perhaps

section 2{~) of the Act might explain •.11hy this is t!le case, that

section reads, "This ~.ct shall be deemed to be remedial and shall receive such fair, large, and liberal construction and

interpretation as hest ensures the objects of t.'<e Act and its purposes as set forth in

section 3." There is no need for me to read for#ard

section 3 but the policy Z758

~-loverrber 15, 197? Tape Nn. 10')9 Al!-3 ~ecisicn the~e is in t.!;_is inst:.ance to lessen the courts discretion ,:md t:: have a strong burden to !::urCen to upset it. ,~,nd cbviousl:t it is a J':',ucl"'. stronqer i::u~den- It is a tad pcli~r but if the governrnent can insist t}:ey •,;ill have their way. :!ow the final area or the .final 2759

November 14, 1979 Tape No. 1100 DW - 1 Ma. G. OTTENHEIMER: major area there was with respect to specifying a limitation period. And certainly before the Act becomes operative - this is a matter which, I think, needs quite serious consideration because as far as the matrimonial home is involved,the Limitation of Actions Realty Act in a twenty year limitation would, in general, be operative. is another time factor - Now there MR. E.

ROBERTS: Is the minister g~ggesting that the twenty year period in this:sense is reasonible and what happens in the case, which I suggest will happen from time to time, perhaps of a subsequent marriage. And then- Hr. Speaker, MR.SPEAKER: (SIMMS) Belle Isle, by leave. MR. E. ROBERTS: The han. nember for the Strait of It is a position surely that could quite conceivably happen is that a man and a ~oman become married ~o each other, there is a matrimonial home, that marriage is subsequently dissolved by process of law. And then one or both parties then becomes married again to a different spouse.

Now aach of the spouses have half of a half 1 so let us assume that Tim and Ma~y are married to each other and Tim and Mary go their separate ways, Mary owns half of the matrimonial home and Tim owns half of the matrimonial home.absent and agreement. Tim subse­ quently remarries ~o Jane so Jane has half of what? And at what pcint can Mary come in - can she wait nineteen years and then come in and say, 'Now, Tim and Jane have been getting along beautifully but I have decided to put the boots to Tim and Jane, here they have been living in that house all along and I am now going to apply for a declaration'.

I mean I know it was twenty years, the twenty years is there, Surely a year or two is the only - there has to be an end. If the marriage is at an end surely there has to be an end to the proper~y :ights arising ou~ of the fact of the marriage. 2760

November 14, 1979 Tape No. 1100 DW - 2 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: I am net disputing that or r am not suggesting that it should, in fact, be twenty years. I am just saying that there are a number of time factors involved. And there is a situation, as well, whereby a court may award exclusive possession to the guardian of a child. MR. E. ROBE:P.TS: MR. G, OTTENHEIHER: Yes. Another thing is that we realize that it is important that this be examined carefully and that is being done.

I would not be in a position to say now what the time period should be, it is a matter which is being examined and obviously, will have to be clarified before the Act becomes operative. HR. E. P.OBEF.TS: Is the minister prepared to say that there will be, introduced into the Bill the concept of a tine period, whether it is one month or a hundred years/ MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: and ~recise. 11R. E. ROBEP.TS: :1R. OTTENHE!:H:R: fore•Jer. HR. E, ROBERTS: HR. OTTENHEIHER: Yes. So that it will be clear There has to come an end. Yes, certainly it cannot go on Well, that is one good decision.

V1ell, now there is twenty (inaudible) (inaudible) at least when it comes from my hon. friends opposite. No, I did not mean.tbat in the facetious manner in which it sounded either. So, ~r. Speaker, I think, that concludes my comments. Again I thank hon. members opposi~e and this side fer their participation. It has been, I think, quite fully debated, theze are legitimate areas of differ2nce of opinion. I think, in general the principle is universally agreed to and some differences with respect to specific details.

It has been a debate which, 1 think, has been .among the best that I have seen in this House for quite some time in terms of the nunber of pe9ple participating and objective approach brought to it. It is not a partisan matter and then nobody, I 2761

November 14, 1979 Tape No. 1100 DW - 3 XR. G. OTTEHHEIXER: believe has tried to ~ake it that. And there is no doubt, it is a piece of legislation which will affect the lives of certainly the vast, vast majority of the people of this ?rovince. I thank hon. members for their participation and I have the pleasure of moving second reading. SOME HON. MEHBERS: Hear, hear! Is it the pleasure of the House ' that the said Bill be now read a secor.d time. Those in faVour 'Aye', contrary 'Nay', carried.

On motion, a bill,"An Act To Reform The Law Respecting The Property Of Married Persons", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 1) ~otion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend, Revise and Consolidate The Law Relating To The Establishment And Administration Of Municipal Government In The Province''. 2762

November 15, l9i9 Tape No. 1101 NM - 1 ~~. SPEAKER (Si:n.~sl: ':'he bon. 2·!inister of M:.micipal Affairs and Housing. S0:.1E HON. ~1D1EEF.S: Hear, hear! NR. N. ti!HDSOP.: !-tr. Speaker, let me say in opening that it is I think a distinct honour for me to have the opportunity to introduce th~s particular piece of legislation to ~e hon. House. It is a result of rnany years of hard work and ma..,_y years of invol•,err.enr. personally on my

part in municipal ~~tters. ~rimarily this piece of legislation. I think,is a result of a lot of hard work on behalf of tJeople in ti1e depar:.r.:ent, persons associated with the Federation of Hunicipalities and others, of caurse,in the Department of Justice. I would like to note in openi~g th~t this particular bill has a long background and i't. has been in some time in ?reparation.

It is based pritr.arily on the fi:1dings of the rtayal Comt:'lission on Nunicipal Government in Newfoundland which was initiated in 1972 and a report tabled in 1974, the chairman of that commissio~ b~ing Professor Hugh Hhelan of Herr.orial University. That report has become well known :ts <:he Whelan Royal Connission Report. The study was an ex."1austive exa."tlinaticn of local government in the Province. • It enquired into all aspect of local goverP~ent, both administrative and financial.

It rr~de very distinct recommendations on v.:;.rious farms of local govern.:nent structures t.hat should be adopted here and various amer.dments to existing legislation that was required. I point out ~~at there are a n~ber of pieces of legislaticn now in effect in ~he Province dealing with municipal administration and that this proposed piece of legislation co~bines and cor-solidates,as ~he title indicates,a n~~er of pieces of legislation into one document. There was a committee resulting from the Royal Commission Report. The cotnr:~ittee was established to dr<Jft this particular ::;ieee of legislation.

Indeed that work has ':aken something in the order of a year or mare. It is a fairly comprehensive docu:nent t:hink, 2763

Noverr.ber 15, 1979 Tape No. 1101 Ni'-1 - 2 and hen. me~~ers I ili~ sure will agree that there is a great deal of infor.:'.ation in there and it obviously would take a great deal of time in putting that together. The committee was co:r:prised of representatives from the Depart:r.ent of Hunicipal Affairs and Housing, representatives of the Department of Justice, and as well a representative from the Federation of Municipalities. I would like to thank the Federation for their co-operation over the past nu.T.ber of years in this regard in actually bringing this piece of legislation to the fDsition L,at it is now in.

In that regard l would note that this being a fairly important piece of legislation, I would submit that i:, is indeed :;erhaps one of the r.1.ost important p.leces of legislation placed before this hon. House in this particular session in that i~ has very far reaching ramifications. ::t >::ouches ~asically every ~:ewfoundla::cier and Labradorian in our Province in that, at this poi:1t in tir:te some eighty-five 9er cent of the people of -chis ?rovince actual:!.y live in an incorporated cor:tmunity.

The balance of =:if teen per cer,t, of course are scs:::tered in various parts of our Pruvin::::e and scrr.e 1.:1 ::::.wns ar:d villages that are not incorporated yet have a closely %nit s~ruc~~re, and this bill also makes p~ovision,to a limited degree; of some ser12~es tc these peo9le. So as a result of that very few persons in ~~ewfoundland actually will no:: be effected by this particular piece of legislation. Just to discuss perhaps a few principles, as I mentioned earlier the bill itself hopefully is a ~Dre modern and understandable piece of legislation.

We have at the moment quite a large number of pieces of legislation dealing with nunicipa1 gaver~~ent. This particular one forms a legal framework ·.vhich .,ill replace act:ually the Local Government Act, the Community Councils Act, che Local Government Elections Act, the Local Auchorit:y Cor.trol of Expenditures Act, the Local Government Receivership Act, and, as well, substantial portions of the Depart:ment of Hu:1icipal Affairs and Housing Act. In addition ::o ci;.at 2764

!love.mber 15, 1979 Tape No. 1101 RA3 ~1R. N. 1-JINDSOR: ~ n~~~r of other acts will require some minor a.mendments to bring tl-le!:'l into line 'llith this ,-:Ja.rt- icular piece of legislation. To discuss briefly som2 of the major principles of t..'1e bill, basicallYit provides a whole new legal fram.e- work for the operation and financing of r.:unicipalit:ies, delegates various powera t.o ~unicipalities, establishes proce~dures for orerating and pro­ vides the election proceedurcs anC so forth. 2765

!<ovember 15, 1979 Tape ll02 PK - 1 Mr. !l. Hindsor: It also provides a net.r policy in respect of incorporation of cc~unities. I ~uuld point out in the beginning tha~ the nu~~er of municipalities that will be incorporated, the nur.ber of different types of rr.unicipalities will be diminished somewhat. At the moment we have a large n~ber of various fo~s of local government structures that are in plac~. ~his particular piece of legislation will reduce that greatly. The bill itself is written, hopefully, in fairly simple language, reducing the amount of legal language that is involved here, keeping in mind, )!r.

Speaker, that we have, at any point in tirr.e, in our Province, ser.ring our 309 municipalities, the number that are presently incorpor::J.ted, in excess of 2, 000 elected members of councils and boards and com.'"!lissions, with the exception of the two cities,all of which are servinq ·..;ithout any re:nuneration, and many of 'Hhom, of course, do not ha•:c any formal training for the type of work that they undertake in their elected FOSition.

As well, of course, there would be a large n~~ber of municipal administrators, many of whcm do have some formal training, and we r.ave made some great steps in this regard over the past couple of years. Indeed we have ~ade some steps in regard to training of councillors as well1 in that we initiated just this year a new training progra.T.r:""' far municipal councillors, which I might add, has been extremely well received and the attendances and the courses that ·~~e have put off to date have i::een extremely favourable.

Basically there are a n~~ber of - perhaps the most major changes made from cxis-::ing leg-islation in the establisb,_'l1e:.t~ in the status of the various municipalities, the method in which their budgets are kept 1 submitted to the minister and so forth. 1 would like to go down through some of the major changes as they relate. First of all 1 as I mentioned earlier, there will be three prime forms of local gover~~ent as a result of this particular piece a= legislation.

The main part of this municipal administration now ""'Ould be the town counci:, the tow"n council being very much similar to town councils as '.-.'e now kno\<1 them, and having :nuch broader po...,·ers, and we will get into that b. a few moments. 27€6

November 15, :!.979 Tape :.;o. 1102 IB-2 The second farm of local council would be the ccmmun!.ty council which is basically identical to the tow;-, council with one, small exception. And they have the s~~e powers and authorities and resronsibilities as a town cour.cil,one exception being the method of election~ that being,.that town council:;; will be elected by the normal process as we new know it~whereas community councils will be elected but elec~ed at a public meeting of the cetr~unity.

And obviously this would relate to t:he smaller =orr.munities of :=em>:! say, 200 or 300 or 400 persons whereby it would be eccncmi~ally unreasonable, I think, to require that cc!rn1unity to gc through the •.;hole election procedure of the set up of ballot boxes and returning cf::lcers and so forth. So the ccwrnunity councils will be elected but j~s~ at a public meeting. :.ffi. JA.\fiESON: By tal lot or shew of hands? Hill it have to be secret - !>1F.. N. h"'NDSOR: Procedures will be laid dct.'Il in regulations as a

schedule for the Act really. Have you determined that the procedure must i::e a ballot or can it be a show of hands? }!.R. N. Hih'DSOR: I am not entirely sure what procedure is set. I think it re~~ires a ballot there at the public meeting, not a shew of hands. I have not looked at that in detail but - HR. Ji'I.!UESON: I think (inaudible). MR. N. HINDSOR: - I would certainly agree that that: would be appropriate. The main point being, ~x.

Speaker, that no longer will there be appointed boards acting as councils in muni=ipalities, trat regardless of which of these tv.u forms of local governmer-.t is in place it 'Will in fact be elected representation. So there will not be any mere boards and the local L~prov~ent districts as we now knew the~ with the beard r~nning the affairs of the community will disappear. The third form of structure that will be ~u-~ in place will be the local service district, w!"lich I referred tc in opening, relating to unincorporated communities. 7his would be 2767

~Jove.tnber 15, 1979 Tape No. 1102 :-tR. N. NI!IDSOR: incorporation of a committe~ very similiar to the ones fl€ hav~ now in place through the /later Services Division of the department fer the prevision of just verj 2768

November 15, 1979 Tape 1103 EC - 1 MR. N. WINDSOR: specific services such as water supply or perhaps solid waste disposal or fire protection in accordance with t:.'le new programme that. we announced several rr.onths ago for fire proeection and. tile financing of fire fighting equipment through the Depart..-ent of Municipal. Affairs and Housing. To look at some of the more specific items in this particular piece of legislation, t.'le act is in seven sections. I have a note from the Clerk saying that community council is elected by secret ballot. That is fine.

The towns basically will be created by Order of the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council, There is a slight change here from the present procedure. Formation of town councils will be as a result of feasibility studies.

That is:prcposing :.'tat rat.'ler than at tile moment where petitions are required that the Province, or the depar"....ment, the minister or t.'le government cannot proceed without a petition signed by a majority of the residents of the community • The new legislation is proposi~g that incorporations would be undertaken by the ?rovince as a result of feasibility studies undertaken to determine the actual feasihili ty 1 the financial viabil.i ty and otherwise of for:ning a cocmu.ni ty, As part of that exercise ..,.auld be a mandatory public hearing process so t.'lat all persons who have an interest in doing so will ha~~ evert opportunity to have an input into a public hearing to say what form of ~vernment, what form of council or otherwise would be in place in their particular commu."li ty.

Similarly, by the same process of feasibility studies, the Province would have the Jower to amalgamate towns or communi ties and to annex areas to towns ;md c.'lange boundaries and otherwise or to disestablish a town council. Basically, town cou::.cils . ..,.ill still consist of five but not mere than ten persons as designated by th~ 2769

November 15, 1979 Tapt! 1103 EC - 2 :1R. N. WINDSOR: Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council, wno will serve, as they now Co, for u period of four years.

There is, hc·,o~ever, provision for appoint::nent of councillors in the initial stages and this would Oecome necessary, particularly in the case of an industrial town l:leing created as a result of some particular industry, I just use, for example, perhaps, the case of a Labrador city being established basically as a company town being built by the company, It may well be desirable to have some form of local government in place to o"-ersee and provide input fro:n t..l-te general public as to how that community should be developed.

So for a ver1 interim basis only, it is possible to appoint a town COI.lnCil for an initial period t.o oversee the establishment of a town. New provisions in the act provide for statutory duties and responsibilities of senior council employees. New provisions permit councils to participate fin~~cially in staff training of municipal employees, ei t.l-ter on their own or in co-operation with other municipalities. One major change in this particular piece of legislation, Mr. Speaker, perhaps the most in~rtant aspect of ~~is whole bill, is that it provides a far great.er level of local government autonomy.

It gives much ::'lOre auth.ority to the local council. One prire example of that. is the fact. that the budget of t:.'le municipality will no longer require the approval of a minister. This has been a sore pain~, I guess, perhaps for a number of years in many municipalities, in t.ltat t.hey have to submit their budget. to the rr.inister for approval and cannot incur any expenditures without ministerial approval. At the roment, in fact, the councils are required t.o :ubmit two budgets, one for general matters and one for utility.

The proposal in ~1-tis new legislation is that there would be, in fact, one budget- bo~l-t co~bined -water and sewer and other utilities cotrbined with the general accounts of th.e 2770

November 15, 197'3 Tape 110.3 EC - 3 MR. N. 'diNDSOR: municipality so that the town r.ow '"'ill have the authority on its o..,n to draw up its own budget, to decide where expenditures should be made in the community, what expenditures should be, what t.,_e priorities of the community are and to actually approve that budget t.'lemselves and operate within it. They Will be, of course, required to submit it to the minister for information 2771.

:Ioverr.ber 15, 197 9 T::tpe :-lo. 110,1 SD - l There is, however, a very il.":'.ple provision that where <3. ::ouncil exceed;:; it.s budget: in any finar.cia1 year, t.:.hJ.t the ::tinistcr r::ay re·~IUire in sul::squent ye~rs t.:ut the budget be submitted for his apprcv.:-.L Th::.-s is co, :::asi.call:.•, 2eal with a sit:Jat.ion where a council ir.a;.;s up a Ludget at the bcgi:J.nin.g of the ye:ar ar.d cces not stay wit-hin it :lci at. t:te er:d of c:te y<:<dr has a financial J.efici.c.

Ol::viously, there muse be 30r:1e control tc p=::::lude ~tat sort of a sit:.lation and so in the first instance it is possible for the :::inistcr t.o crder tl-.at for t.ne s:.ili:::oquent year or as lens as be feels necessary, the minister may require that. the :tu:.iget Le submitted for his approval. The :~ct pr:Y-Iil2e:; t:-:..::.t auuits will be ccc;pleced on each municiFality i.'"l eac•• year. And this lS not a departure from present, :,.;e have initiated just this year, in fa::t, a requirame~t that al! mur~cipalities would nave their accounts auUiteci annually.

A n~~b0r of ~a~bers and oembers opposite have indicated their concern t.~a t a nus:U:ler of town councils have gone fer nany years witr.out pre-per auditing of t..'-leir accounts. Tna:::. situation hilS been corrected this yea:: and the Auditor-General has identified ti'.cse municipalities that he is in a po=::itian c:.o a:uli~, the balance of then have been doled out or famed out to ~~diting firms, chartered accountants, in the Province and •.;e will r.ow have audit:ed statem'!!ncs for each municipality each year.

Another n<n.J provision in t.'l~ Act which I think is fairly significant and which will red~ce greatly the ~~unt of, again, dependance on ~~e department ana on a 1:1inisterial approval is a provision whereby a municit:ality will be pe~itted to borrow up to 28 per cent of its projected annual budget in any particular financial year on an interi..'!l basis. ·,;<.! have a whole host of requests almost daily frcr:t municipalities requesting approval tc l:orrcw snall amounts of ooney pendL'!g receipt of municipal taxes, pending receipt of grants from t.~e federal soverlli~ent or o~~er agencies wno may be providing funding for capital 2772

;;o-..eml:er 15, 1979 Tape :Io. 1104 SD - work::; M.:l so fo::L'l.. This ne•-: .\c:=. now ther. will provide t:l'.at a ::r..tnici:_::;ality can, en its own accord, borrow up to 20 per~cent of its total annual revenues, total e~tL~at~a ta.x yield for any financial ye:.r. Ti1is, ag;:lin, gives ::.>em >:<uch qreater authority to wake ducisions chat are basically quite rudir.~nta~y at the local level. Borrowing for capit.ul pur:;;<Jses, of course, will still require t:he approval of the minister since, obviously, the Province will have co provide certain guarantees.

This, of course, is quite siz:lilar to the present system as it exists. There shall be, in accordance \dt~ tile Hunicipal Grancs Act, which was approved by -.:his hen. House two years ago i.:: which the gavcrr.ment h:1.s indicated si'"lll t:e proclai:::ed !.n the near future an~ will co~e into effect in 1980, there shall te established a ;.!unicipal C:1.pital Projec':. Soard.

Hoz;efully chis board will provi.::.e to the ciapa.rt=.ent and a.::; well, I guess, co the nunicipalities a five yea: forecast of anticipated capital ex:;?en.ciitures. !n t.'lat regard we will be requiring r::unicipalities to sub:nit .to the Jes-art.\uent a list of the projected capital expenditures fer t.'1e next (i·Je :'ears •'hich then, of course, would be incorporated into a five year capital program.r;;.e fron the depa.rt:::'lent. T!1.i.s allows u ::u.7.ber of t.'lings.

First of all it allows a :::unicipa.lity to, ur.Y.nowing in :~=.vance when fur.ding ~igh:: teccne available for a ?ar~icula.r project, it will provide them the opportu:l.ity of making a.'tlpl"' financial provision in their budget for any year and subsequent years for capi~al fL~ancing ar~ for the re:,..ayr::ent c£ any J~.::Lts inc:...rrcd as a result of capit:.al works. It provides 1 as W"ell1 the depart.":lent an opportunity to do five year capital planning as it:. relat:.es to financing of capital works in ounicipalities.

Perhaps even r.:ore significan~ly it provides t:.he op;'1rtunity for t:he departr.:ent:. to get engineering work done in advant~ and to call contracts in fact:., in advance and it provides, therefore, '- great deal of flexibility and makes possible 2773

November 14, 1979 Tape No. 1105 Dw - 1 ~R. G. WINDSOR: for engineering fir~s and for contractors to have an idea o~ what the level of expenditures might be for the coming years and therefore to spread out the amount of work over the couple of years. We have had complaints almost on a continual basis from consulting firms and from the construction business in relation to the peaks and valleys that occur as it relates to calling of tenders and awarding of contracts.

I might add that just very recently the Cabinet has approved the awarding of a number of ~ngineering works for this year so that we will, by early Spring be in a position, providing funding is made available by the House 1 to award contracts quite early next year for some capital works providing funding,as I said, is made available for these ?arti­ cular works by the House of Assembly.

The taxation syste~ in the Munici­ pality will be revised somewhat_ in that we will be doing away with what we consider, basicallyas a number of nuisance ta~es such as the stack tax,hawkers and ?eddlers tax, fuel tax a~usement taxes and vehicle taxes and so forth. Basically, the main means of raising local revenue will be the real ?roperty tax,which will be given increased emphasisJ business tax, water and sewer tax and a poll tax which basically is the sa~e as the present service fee, together with local improvement assess­ ments and special service levies to cover full or partial cos~ of capital works.

The awarding of tenders by munici­ palities will not be - councils will be inviting tenders to award contracts or to undertaken any works to be financed out of funding advanc:J or guaranteed by the Province. In other words, in order ~Jt ~o invite tenders ministerial approval will be required so that we can ensure that the awarding of tenders by municipalities is basically in accordance with the policies of the Province and the Public Tender Act.

November 14, 1979 Tape No. 1105 DW - 2 !-U:!., U. HINDSO~: As a basis of the raising of l~c~l revenues for a municipality, the Act provides that where a community is serviced, and by 1 serviced' ve mean serviced with a water and sewer system or at least 50 per cent of the community serviced by either water and/or sewer/ we will require that the property tax system be adopted by the municipality as a basic form of raising local revenues. The reason for thatAquite frankly, Mr.

Speaker, is that we feel that a municipality that is going to have to provide these services which are obviously quite expensive 1 obviously must be prepared to bear a portion of the cost of these services.

In many cases it will be impossible and we do not expect particular municipalitias to bear the total cost of providing these services~ However, we do feel that it is reasonable to expect those who receive these services to bear a portion of the cost/ therefore, we are ~aking provision in the Act that where these services are put in place, that the property tax system which provides a much more equitable, a much more stable ~form of rai*ing local revenues will be put in place.

This ties in very well, in fact, wi~h the new Municipal Grants Act which provides incentives for the adoption of the property ~ax -system and 1 in fact,provides a special grant for municipalities that do have property tax in place. So from that point of view the Province will be assisting, to an extra degree, municipalities that have adopted this particular form of local revenue raising. There will be some revision to the classes of real properties that are exenpt from taxes at the moment.

There are quite a large nurLer of properties that are exempted by statute and many muni :ipalities have objected to the fact that they are losing revenues from these properties and have to provide services to them. These properties, therefore, of course, impose quite a financial burCen on the community. 2775

November 14, 1979 Tape No, 1105 DH - 3 !"1R. N. HINDSOR: Basically,the number now will be restricted, will be limited, However, the municipality has the authority to include others,as they see fit,within the comnunity. There will be some provision in this particular piece of legislatlon for partial exemptions, perhaps, of the service fee, of the poll tax as it now will be called, as it relates to persons on old age pensions. There has been quite a bit of controversy over the past number of months as it relates to exempting senior citizens or reducing their level of taxation.

Basically, what this proposed Bill says is that, 'For the purpose of calculating incoma 1 as it relates to the paying of the service fee or the poll tax 1 that the old age pension will not be considered as income. 1 So to that end any person who receives only the old age pension 1 obviously, would not be liable for the service fee. Previously, the Act provided that basically all males were liable for the service fee and that any female earning in excess of $600 per anum would also be liable.

The effect of that was, and we had a petition presented here not too long ago by a. han. gentleman opposite, that when two persons or a couple became the age of sixty-five years old, the wife now had an income for the first time in her life, the income being her old age pension and that, therefore, now ha~ing an income she beca~e lLable for the first time in her life to paying the service fee. And, so we have made that provision there and, as well,it is possible to provide, with approval 1 exemptions for ether similia~ classes of persons on fixed incomes,such as those on D.V.A. pensions, widows and so forth.

The Act removes one difficulty that was in there in the existing legislation 1 which provided for imprisonmert for non-payment of fines levied by the municipality, in other words, failu~e to p~y municipal taxes. We do not feel that persons who should be indebted to a municipality 2776

::overrber 15, 1979 Tape ~:o. llOG ~JR.

VI!mSCF.: should be put in priscn.Thcre are other provisions cl1ere for action to te taken by the ~unicir:ality so, basically, that ancr.-.aly l.•:oulC. be rer.:ovcd and correcteC ty this new piece of legislation, The act proviCes for tb.e establishment and operation of r.ormal municipal services si~ilar to existing legislation so that nunicipalities would have the authority to operate utilities such as water and sewer services, solid waste disposal systerr.s, to Co road construction and maintenance, and provl.de fire pro­ tection and exercise certain controls and so forth. ~here is a new provision in the act providing for the establishrr,ent of heritage areas and appointment of ~eritage advisory corr~~ttees, siPilar to those powers already vested under t:he City of St.

John's Act. ~he second form of a municipality, as I mentioned, ~r. Sp0aker, would be the cor.~unity. Ccr.~unity councils would basically have the same authority, would be established in the same manner as town councils, they would exercise basically the same authorities, with the one exception being that they were elected at a public rr:eeting. Part three of the act deals with t:,e establishment of regions-for the provision of services on a regional basis ~. :<EMBER: Hear, hear; Mi HCN. ~IDEP.: No wonder {inaudible) MR. \1I!1DSOR: I have one supporter at least. Basically 1 !·tr.

Speaker, this provides that where it appears advisable to establish a form of regional council, or regional structure to operate a regional facility 1 t-.1-ten the act is enabling legislation-.The act does not establish any re~ional councils an~~here in tte Province-~ut it does enable the establishment of these regional councils. I would like to just expand on what we 1r.ean by that, just a little bit, because: I am concerned that perhaps this might be confused '"'ith the rather

!:averr:!-er 15, 1979 Tape 1106 !1B - :; sophisticated level of regional goverr.ment that was pro:;;oseC !or t.'le St. John's area by my colleague,previously. In fact, we Co already have, as Your Honour Y.nows full well, various fo~s of regional governments in one sense or another, in the Province. One ~re3 is, i" fact,in Central newfoundland, in the area represented by Your Honour, in Grand r'alls, where we do, in fact have a regional water supply in place now ::Oeing shared by GranC. Falls and ?ishop's Falls a.nd l'inC:sor.

These three municipalities) en their cHn voliticn,tave formed together and ectablished a cott.mittee which is now operating and r:1aintaining bis particular water st:pply system, and -..:hich they share, r think, en a per capita basis, ~~e cost of such operatic~. That is, in fact, a regional council, It is a regional government in a very si:r.ple s~nse, but this is w~at we r..ean ::y regional council. :iow it tndy te that in an area such as St.

John's, and we still believe, ! thinl-:, this to be the case, that there needs to be a more sophisticated level of regional gcvernment si~pl!{ because of the nu!'!'.ber of services that could be, and should 1-e,;;e:-hars, prcvidecl en a regional basis. ;,nd the act provides for a greet deal of fle!{i:·:dlity in that. Jl.nC:/again 1 regional councils -..reuLi be esta!clished based on feasitility studies which must include public hearings.

It proviCes for the electior. of mer.bers to regior.al cou."lcils, and the e1ection,fron a.'T',cng the merrbers elected on ~~e regional co~"lcil, L~e election of a chairman frorn arnong those rr,err.bers.

C·ne difference in a regional council and a town council, as it relates to ~he relationship with the Cepartment, is that budgets of regional ~cuncils mu~t te sutmitted to t..1.e minister for approva1 1 ~'"ie reason for that l::eing that, obviously, at least a portion of ~~e cost of operating that regional council H!ll be !:orne by the Province, and that we have in eH~ Bunicipal Grants Act, provision for a regional incentive grant Hhich helps r-over part of the cost of t.he aC."':!inistraticn 2778

nover!:;er 15, 1979 Tape 1106 of such a ::t::::ucturc. The regional council will have similar authorities to tovm counci!s in that ti1ey !:lay torrow up to t'",...enty r:-ercent of t..'1e esti:tateC tax yield in any one year, on an interin Casis 1 capital works or what:wer .2779

Noverher 15, 1973 Tape 1107 EC - 1 MR. N, WINDSOR: per.ding t..~e receipt of othe::- fu.:1ding. Similar to a town council, regional councils will be expected to submit annually to capital l?rojectn Board a five year forecast of anticipated capital projects. In unincorpora:ed areas within the region and subject to the approval of the Lieutenant-Go.,.·ernor-in-Council, regional councils may exercise all the powers and authorities of a town council that they would exercise in incorporated areas.

Part four of the act relates to general matters relating to the administration of municipalities, empowers councils to remunerate councillors, such amounts as set out by regulation. Present legislation does provide for payment to councillors; however, it has not been the policy of the Province in the past to agree to the al!Ounts as required by the act. This new legislat.ion provides thac councillors can be paid a salary in such amounts as set out by regulations to be established by the Province.

Basically, what we are saying is that where<1:5 a municipality now has the auth.ority to set its own budget, to decide the level of servicing t."lat will be provided to the municipalitY 1 to decide, therefore, k!'lowing t..~e amount of revenue that will be coming to the municipaUty from th.e Province, from the provincial government by way of the formulas derived. under the Municipal Grants Act. Therefore, they will know how much fu.'lding is available to them and t..~e level of taxation that will be required to provide this level of funding.

And we are saying that in accordance with that and in t..'le knowledge of that, then within regulations which will be set out in relation to the size a.~d. the revenues of the municipality and so forth, they can provide for some remu.'leraeion to themselves. As 1 mentioned in my opening remarks, we have something in excess of 2,000 such persons serving in this Province without any remuneration, with the exception of the ~o cities. Conflict of interest provisions are quite noticeable in the act as it relates to the rights of councillors to participate in discussions and to vote in council meetings, basically

November 15, 1979 Tape 1107 EC - 2 MR. N, WINDSOR: provisions now existing under existing conflict of interest legislation. 3asically, these provisions will be very, very similar to these, As I mentioned earlier in ~1 opening remarks, public tendering will be required for municipalities and they will be expected to operate under ~~e same or very similar previsions to the Province, under the Public Tendering Act.

The act provides the power to declare an emergency in the case of a disaster of any kind, a snowstorm or a flood or an a~~te water shortage, and we had examples of some of tnese matters over the past couple of years. This act now provides to the council similar powers now existing under the City of St:.. John's Act, actually, to declare a stae.e of emergency and to take any action that they deem necessary under these conditions.

Similar provisions will exist, as they now do, for penalties for violations of acts and regulations, for the expropriation of property for municipal purposes with the approval of the minister, far the appointment of an administrator by the minister. In ~~e case where a co~~cil exceeds its budget greatly in any one year and get thet'.selves into serious financial difficulty, as I mentioned earlier, it is possible then for ~~e minister to irosist ~~at the budget of the community for the next year and subsequent years if necesSarJ,be submitted to the minister fo~ prior approval.

If that fails to work, if more drastic action is required, ~~en there is ample provision in the act, even ~,ough the act is giving much greater autonomy to the municipalities, giving them much oore control over expenditures, over the raising of funds and the dispersal of fun.ds, it also provides ample provision ~ withdraw these powers where

Nove!l".ber 15, 1979 ·rape No. 1108 PJ\.1 HR. N. l'l'!HDSOR: the province deems it absolutely !t pro•Jides for the disbanding of a municipalit:y and appoint- ment of a receiver by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, Hhere that is deemed absolutely necessary. Basically 1 election ?roceCures are similar to existing procedures. :rowever, thez:e is new ne·.; provisions for rules of residency a."1d also provices for proxy voting and for advance, polls, '.,Jhich has been a problem in some elections in the past.

Part six of the act deals with the local Service districts,gives the minister authority to create local service districts to provide, as I mentioned earlier, spec- ific services. These are very sirr~lar to local service committees, now established under our water service committee, whereby this committee can be given same fir:ancial assistance 1 can be duly i:1co:::porated by the de?art­ ment, au!:horized to provide a very specific serl'ice.

They do not have the responsibilities or t.'1e authorities of the t:OW'Tl council, or the comm­ unity council; they are established for a specific purpose and for that purpose only. But it does make it possible for the Prcvinc~,through the depart.":""ent, to provide at least a level-up servtce to ccrnm:mities which are not incorporated and which,perhaps, it might not be in their test in­ terest to prcvide them with full mu.1icipal status and to burden them with the respansibilitie:s thereunder.

They will be authorized to lev-J charges to =ever operation, mainte~ance and eventual re9lacement cost, inclu:hng any debt :::etirement of the service that is pro•Jicie:d by that corr.mittee. Annual budgets of st:.ch ccmr:ittees ;.~ill, of course, be required to be submitted :or ministerial approve.

They can 1 fcr ~~e first time, borrow funding for capital expendit'...lres, .'.t the moment there is no pro­ vision in the act for the committees ~hat we now have to borrow such funds, but we recognize that it ~~y not always be possible for them,part- icularly in the ~ase of replacement cost 1 to raise the fur.dinq prior toP~~e r.eed of providing a particular service without borrowing.

This new act now ~akes it possi~le :or such scrr~ittees to borrcw1 wic~ the approval of the minister , funds for capital expenditures and therefore to retire the debt by way of a levy for service-.Regulations can be drafted by the de­ part~ent for L~e electior. of these local service committees. ~ese regulations will prescribe the te:1ure of office and the powers that are 2782

November 15, 1979 Tape No. 1108 .:1-r:t. N. \•l!NDSOR: authorized to the corr~ittees. BasicCJll•: , :-1r. Speaker, these are r:he major' provlsicns of t.r1e legislation as l.t relates to tne various components of it.

As I :,:;ointe::l out earlier the document 1 itself,is written, h?pefuliy in a layw~n's ~anguage so to speak, so that the average person , including myself, can under- stand the terninolcgy in it, keeping in mind,as! ~entioned 1 that scme two thousand persons , two thousand e~ected persons and perhaps another two thousand officials or m.ore,in the Province, are dealing with this particular piece of legislation almost en a daily basis. Hopefully, ~his piece of legislation is written ln such a form that it is possible for these people to interpret it '.>~i .:...1-tcut undue reference to legal authorities fc~

interpretation . It,for the first time 1 pro- vides an ample index ·.vhich makes it easier for persons using the act to find a particular

section or to refer to a particular problem, that they rr,ay ha'J·e come across. I t.hink it is a fairly comprehensive piece of leg~slation, Mr. Speaker, in that it a~alga~tes a number of pieces of legislation, modernizes it, updates it. :~ ell.minates numercus pro­ blems which have been brought to the attention of the depar~~ent aver the years by m~~icipalities, by han. members in this Eouse of Asse~bly, problems that have not entirely been dealt ·e~ith . I :::hir.t~ it it. has tc be locked at in an overall sense, with a whole new directi::..:-, i;;_ local government in this ?rov~nce. I chink this, in fact 1 s:gnals the be­ ginning of a 2783

November 15, 1979 Tape No. 110? IB-1 t1R. N. NINDSOR: r.ew era in local government in the Province. You nust consider same of the provisions in this Jl..ct with the new provisions of the >-h.JI'.icipal Grants Act which I mentioned earlier with new policies that we enunciated some time ago as it relates to the provision of capital grants in the Pro·1ince.

Tying all of these thL'1gs together ' think that it provides a basis under which municipalities can have a great deal more autono=ny in regulating their local affai!:s, in providing services to the municipalities they serve and in deciding the level of servicing indeed that must be provided to these municipalities. It gives them tbe opportunity to decide on their own budget, to decide what services will be provided and to decide,therefore,<::he level of taxation that will be imposed on persons resident in their various communities.

All in all, I t.l-tink it will lead tc a much better relationship beth between the taxpayer of the community and his elected council and between th& elected council and the department. It is a result of, as I mentioned, quite a great deal of w~rk on behalf of not only officials but,as well 1 councils and councillors and particularly merr~ers o£ the Federation Executive over the past n~~Ler of years and I think it is a fairly ~regressive piece of legislation which will serve municipalities in this Province well over the co~ing years. SCl·IE HON. MEY!BERS: Z.'..R. SPEAKER (S!.."'J1S) : Hear, hear! Order, please!

Before I recognize the hen. m~~er for Bona"v·i.sta North, although it is not quite five o 1 clock 1 rather than have to interrupt the han. member a little later 1 ~an inform the House now that I have received notice of t~~ matters for debate at five-thi~ty when a motion to adjourn will be deemed to be before the House. Notice given by ~he han. member for LaPoile (}IT.

Neary) arising out of a ~Jestion asked the han. the Premier and the subject matter is fishery policy, suspension of the Fishery Loan Board, And the other ::'.att.er also raised by the hon. m~~ber for LaPoile (~x, Neary) arising out o£ a question asked the hon. the Pre.-rnie.r, and the subject matter is increases in electricity rates and profits of Newfoundland Light and Power. 2784

November 15, 1979 MR. SPEAY.ER (SI~!Sl ~.JR. STIRLING: Tape No. 1109 IE-2 The hon. tr.e:nber for Bonavista North. Thank you 1 :·1r. Speaker. Lib:: my colleague on the other side !,too, have been involved with this legislation going back to its first days when ! was a ~ew~er of the City Council of the City of St. John~s and ·.-~as a me:nber of the Federation of Hunicipalities. It is, as he says, a very corr,plex piece of legislation It does bring together and consolidate many of the acts. ~~d it certainly moves in the direction that councils and those involved with councils have suggested over many year!:'.

It was based on the Royal Commission on Municipal Government. However, before bringing it to this stage there are still a few indications of the lack of respect or trust for the ability of councillors and the people in their districts, in their areas, to act in a responsible manner.

For example 1 today this Act is being introduced to the Hause of Assembly while tomorrow the minister has a meeting with the Federation of !·lunicipalities, the Executive of the Federation, to discuss this Act. !t really would not have taken that much extra cause or concern with everything else that we have on the Order Paper to postpone the introduction of this piece of legislation until they had at least the courtesy given to the Federation of ;.lunicipalities to have their meeting with them tomorrow to hea:::- their comments or concerns and to reflect those comments and concerns by the minister in introducing this major piece of legislation.

Just a little hang over from the fact that provinces have always considered municipalities not only of any particular political strife, the provinces have always considered municipalities the =reatures of the Province. And you will notice there is nothing 2785

November 15, 1979 Tape 1110 !B-1 fA.R. ST! FLING : in this new legislakion that indicates if the Province is going to give us any of that control over the reunicipalities right to go to the federal govern!"ent on any matter. ':'here was a great to-Co about that the same days when the now minister was a tow-n engineer in Hount Pearl .,hen I was involved with the City Council.

There was :a great discussion about tri-level meetings and tri-level involvement and tri-level discussion and tha<; there should Ce some move to get away from this feeling that the municipality was just a creature simply because 100 years ago when the constit~tion was devised there was no provision made in the constitution for municipalities, Even though some municipalities in Canada are larger than some provinces in canada, there is no provision that recognizes a munici~ality by legal right.

There:ore 1 it has put municipalities and cities and towns and co:mnunity councils always in the position of coming cap in r~nd to a province saying, Please, sir, can we do this and please can we do this, tr~t or the other thing. It is natural that local co~~unities and local groups should be allowed to deal with the federal government in areas where money is being spent in the local area. There tas grown up development associations.

"'·..:.st about any kind of organization other than a municipality ~an go directly to the federal gover~~ent but not a municipality, no matter how well informed, no r:latter how expert. And in this new legislation, the government :-tas not gone that extra step ' by saying, we have enough respect for municipalities to grant them certain areas where they can go directly for certain funds to the federol government.

There is - and I am glad that the minister mentioned it - there is a companion piece to this piece of legislation and it is, as the minister has already said, the Act '"'hich was passed some two years ago, the Municipal Grant system. I think that we should let those municipalities know honestly, straightforwardly, up front, that ~~ere is no Santa Claus in these two acts. Although in reading the corrrnents of the minister at the Federation of Hunicipalities the impression is given that if you guys ::l.o wl-.at we want 1 '"'hich is put in property tax 1we are going to match you dollar for dollar or something 2786

November 15, 1979 ?ape :1o. 1110 IE-2 .1-:R. STIFLING: a little bit less than that, t-Ie are going to have a systen of grants so that you good guys who have the property tax 1 you are going to get the tax incentive and lot the :::unicipalities go away rubl:::ing their :-tands tllinking, boy oh boy, if this Act can only come in are we ever going to be in great shape. The City of Corner Brook had a petition the other ~ay screaming about the taxes. The City of Cor~er Brook is under the ir-±;ression as many :T:unicipalities may be - maybe they are ::.at, maybe they clearly understand it.

But the two a::ts go together as the minister says and in this Act they said, Put in property >;:ax. He are going to force property tax down the throats ot people in ~ewfoundland whether you want it or not. Property tax is going to b~ =arced dow~ your throat3. And the little carrot is in the Act that ·,.;as already passed. The carrot is in the Act that says, If you have a property tax there is going to be a tax incentive grant only available to you. Nm" let us look at what is really behind the conceFt, the facts of live as they are and whichever government brcught in this, it i:O'.lld be saying the same thing.

There are nany parts of Newfoundland, r:-,any small comr.mni ties in Newfoundland represented by people !:e!'e that cannot afford a property tax simply because they do not have the tax base. :·that is the point of going to a cormnunity 'h'ith 20C or 300 or 400 or 500 people in it where there is no business, there is no Bowaters, there is no goverr.ment offices, there are e£sentially people who liv2 in that community and they a:-e now collecting whatever fees they think they can collect, what is magical about bringing in the property tax?

I think what we are going to see in this property tax enforcement - and we might just as well be honest with all these smaller municipalities 2787

~lovc.."'tber 15, 1379 T<l:;?C Uo. llll SD - 1 kr.o· .. o t~>G t:r!..i.th ::hat there is :10 Sant3. Claus in this 1 ,:.. • .-:t t this conce;::t is a concept to try to get people living in municipalities anc wit.'lin boundries of $llall cor-.a.uniti~s to recognize that they have to pay for their •,·a ter and ~:;ewer services themsel vcs 1 and tl-.a t there is r.ot going to be any new capital grant from 1980 for-ward.

There are not going co be any unless you have property taxes in force, there are r.ot going to be any more water and sewer projects '.lnless you 3ave proper':y tax in forcE.. 1\nd what the minister bas said 1 and you mi-;ht as well aay it to t:1e people honestly, t::J.thflllly, up front, w."!at we ::1re doing is ,,.,e are transferring part of that Curden fror:~ ':he provincial rcspor.sibility to the responsibility of the small to<wn council or car.'.::t.unity .;::uuncil to collect it. ':hat is what this act is really all about:. ;,::c.

I have talked to some of the people involved in it and ~~e ~inister kr.ows that any of ·.;s who were involved with r:H.micipal .;::ouncil, talking to any level of civL. serv-ant 1 that there was a feell.ng that politici.J.ns forced t.'lrough :nany incoq:orations •• ".nd the me.'t'.ber for ~,tour:.t Scio Wr. L. Barry) , if he were here, would know ~~at ~he nuni~ifality of Por-:t:.gal Cove and St. Philips was h,;!ld up fo::; years .J.nd years and year;; beciluse tb.e t:.'"linking of th.e civil service was tb.at: these ccmr::u:aties should only e~ist as part of an urba~ region in St.

John's. ~<ci there are many places in Newfoundland today wnero 1 in t.'l.c :;;> • .ir-J:ing of some of t:.h.e ~i·.;il se::-vants 1 there should not ::-e a corrm·.unity COtlncil or a town council or a water and sewer project because there is not ~nough money there ~c pay the cost of operating the systcn. The