PRELIMINARY b1EJ.JITED '.LRAUSCRIPT I~ouse of Assembly For the period: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. February 10, 1977

February 10, 1977 7ape 178 n-1 -'-The House ~t at 3 :00 P .l-!. -:Mr.. Speaker in the Cha-ir. Jm. - SPEAKEP.: . Order, please! ::~.L.ia _ h_n. 1linister of Justice. ~ffi.. HICKMAN: vr. Speaker, it is wit:h .genuine --regret I inform "the mouse of the sudden passing of Hagistrate ..James .J_D. Smith who at ·::the time of his death occupied the provincial b.ench in the magisterial George's. ·The ,~ate . lfagistrate Smith -was appointed :;to :the provincial court bench on October 24, .1966 and has served the ~rovincial court of this Province -wi-th great --devotion and ability -.~since that date.

The late ¥,.agistrate Smit:h-~erved in ·the mag.ister.ial -:Clist-rict of Bell Island .for -a onumbeT-o£ -~ears :before being transferred _"'to :St.. George's • I am sure ·this House ~'Wi11-cowan t to j-oin -with 111e in :extending to the £emily of ·the -late -Magistrate .. Snd:t:h --the sincerest '""~ondolences of the House- ~-· S?EAKEP : The bon. mel!!.ber for St .. <Geo:J;:ge 's .. 1\(C,.. -~s. ¥JCISAAC: 1-1'r .• Speaker, it :is -with -.great :regret too that I -.cand my colleagues here -on this side -o£ ~e ·"Souse have been infoYI!Ied ,-.,'iQf l:he passing away of Ma-gist:rate.-.Smit:h.

Magistrate Smith has made \ . a :great contribution to the l!lagistry. Re has served -well and is ~ell respected in the area of St. :George's ·and the surrounding -districts. I too wish to extend to his family the condolences of ~s side of the House. ~MR. 'SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial Development. -~- LUNDRIGAN: ~!r.

S-peaker, I rise 'to·'l!lake ~ stat:ement in my --\--- ocapacity ~s l-"inister of Rural Devel-opment.. 'l'or some time now we \ ~~ave been looking at the sawmill industries in terms of,particularly 1 ·the concern we have for the differential between the output of lumber ~hat is in the Province as compared with the consumption of lumber. I do not think there has been a ·government for the last twenty-five years that have not been concerned with this problem.

Of course it is -·~ur responsibl:f ty to take whatever action i.s appropriate anrl that we ... re .-'capable of takin~ to provide -some sti11ltllation .and incentive -for the ... ~- ~- "'':' .. - - -:-· . - ... _ ~-=-- - &::.-_-_ ·--· ­,.. . .,......-_.:_...- ~ · :- -. - ~·- - ~ .. - ·- ,-' -=-.,...,. .. ..;... :-- ·- '·'«:t:.: . .!.· •• - ... .- ~ - -- -- - '"!:- '::1.

Februo~y 10, 1977 Tape 178 IB-2 MR. LUND'Plr.AN: further production of lumber in this Province. The Department of Rural Development for a number of years now have been providing assistance to a lot of small sa~~ills, some with some degree of success, some with limited success,around the Province. I believe theye are quite a number of hundreds of very small mills that have received forms of assistance, capital loans and the like.

Last year we attempted very late in the season,too late as I indicated in a public statement, to put in place a programme which would be tested as almost a pilot -programme to interact with the larger mill, the graded lumber mill, to provide working capital,which appears to be ---:one of the major problems facing the industry. :rhis programme enabled us 1 although it met with limited success - it was very late in the season - it nevertheless enabled us to assess some aspects of the problem that we have and to be able to take certain ~dial steps this present year.

I am very pleaserl to be able to --announce a programme tO provide 't·'Ork:ing capital for the intermediate size mill, the mill <t-Yhich produces above 100,000 board feet of lumber and really perhaps between 100,000 and 500,000 board feet of lumber. These mills again,as I indicate,traditionally have lacked working capital and consequently have been rather limited in the production of lumber. It is anticipated that there are about seventy mills that will qualify under the program, 'tvith a possible resultant increase in the output of ]ut'lber.

The loans "rill be based on seventy-five dollars -per thousano for logs delivered to the sawmill yard. It is a sawmill log programme,!£ you want, ·seventy-five dollars per thousand of logs delivererl to the yard. It can be availed of as of today and fo]] o~dnp; throu~h to the miC!rlle of ~·ay fn terms of the loan ,and programmes of repayment tv:fll be scheduled from June through until the early 'Fall.

We have workerl out the pror;rml''l"'e with our offici:tls and through my collear,ue, the "'in1~ter of T'orer-::try and Agriculture,and the Department of forestry and Agriculture will be responsible for monitoring 507

~FebruayY 10, 1977 "Tape 178 MR. L'DNDRTGAN: -..and really indicating to us at Rural Development the extent of the logs th~t have been harvesterl by a particular 111ill and of course indicating their recommendation for approval of a loan. The Department 50S IB-3

Tape 179 PK - 1 Mr, Lu~4Ftgan: th~Q~gh the Rural Development Authority will administPr t~~ 1oart prQgT~e. and we will be able to make available working capital UP t~ $20,000 for any mills that do qualify and that do need the e:rite-ria. The criteria for the mill basically will be its historical performance. In other words, mills that have had a history of being able to need up to 100,000 board feet of lumber, and as well have carried out good forestry practices in the Province and have a satisfactory previous relationship with the Department of Rural Development through its loan programme.

Again I indicate 100,000 board feet as the minimum size mill ,to indicate that our anticipation and hope is that eventually in the coming year these mills can be encouraged to reach a graded capability with their lumber, thus enhancing our principal that quality must be a prerequisite and a prime aim of the Province in meeting the marketplace requirements in the Province as a whole. MR. NEARY: Where will thev ge~ the securitv? MR. LUNDRIGAN: I will reflect on that. That is an important question.

Anybody wishing to avail of the programme will be able to contract any of the regional forestry officers or the Department of Rural Development. An evaluation procedure will be put in place, Mr. Speaker, and it will be external to the department. I want to get people outside of the department to have an evaluation of the programme. This will hopefully be conducted by the University. I have had discussions in the last number of weeks with some people who have an expertise at the University.

And I feel it would be very appropriate if we could put in place an independent group of this nature that could help us assess the impact to beginwith, and modifications and improvements for the coming year.

-February 10, 1977 Tape 179 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Who at the University? MR. LUNDRIGAN: The University? MR. NEARY: Who at the University? MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Dave Reese has been mine prime contract, of course, who works as an assistant to Dr. Bruneau, and he is a young Newfoundlander from Bell Island who happens to be a very interested fellow in the Province, and in this particular area. Dr. Jim Church is another outstanding person at the University who has a very exceptional background in technical aspects of savmills. I just indicate that to respond. AN RON. MEMBER: l~at about Dr. Kitchen? MR. LUNDRIGAN: Dr.

Kitchen is not involved at this moment. He will not be having any major input. SOME RON. MEHBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order! MR. LUNDRIGAN: I would hope to indicate, Mr. Speaker, other kinds of things that we have in mind for t~e sa~~ill inrlust=Y in the coming year. Some of the larger units of operation have had problems. Some of them are in difficulty,as a matter of fact, and they will be for a number of years, the larger units. But we feel it is incumbent on us to address ourselves to the medium sized mill that has quite a bit of potential for expansion.

Now the member across raised a question which I - surely the programme will be based, it is a typical Rural Development Authority Programme. It will not be encumbered by the usual red tape that involves having to have inventory as securd..ty, receivables as security, if that were the case, and we have to go through all of the procedure to accommodate that kind of requirement~then it would be impossible to put any kind of a programr.e in place that would have the efficiency that we deserve it to have. MR. NEARY: Will you have to queue up there now? 510

February 10, 1977 Tape 179 · PK- 3 MR. LUNDRIGAN : It would just be impossible • It would take us --.:: ·- ; six months to put the programme in place, and consequently if we -J;... .. ...,. are going with the very efficient, though sometimes highly criticized but very effective Rural Development Authority. And I believe my .. , .. hon. colleague, the Minister of Finance,might like to indicate that eventually we are putting in place the half million dollars for this programme initially.

If these funds are exhausted, and I hope they are 7then of course we will have to look at expanding the resources as well for the programme. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.. SPEAKER: The hen. member :fbr Burgeo-Bay d 'Espoir. MR. R. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of ~y colleagues here in the official Opposition I would like to welcome the indication from the Department of Rural Development, from the minister, of its intention and his intention to mount this effort to provide some working capital for the intermediate size sawmills.

I firmly believe that anything which can be done to stimulate the additional production or the production of addi~ional board feet of lumber in this Province is a step in the -right direction. And we have --=·-.... ·~.::·: unqualified commendation for the minister, surprised as he looks to hear that. We certainly welcome this effort,and we feel it is a move in the right direction. I am not sure, but I got an indication from him towards the end that the .original amount of funding is a half million dollars, -· is that correct? MR. WHITE: Half a million. MR. LUNDRIGAN: That is in place now. MR.

SIMMONS: Yes, with a possible additional amount• did I get that - MR. LUNDRIGAN: Yes. MR. SIMMONS: Yes. I have not had an opportunity to work the figures through to see what a mill might qualify for. I do not know if the ministe would or could indicate that to me. What kind of

February 10,1077 . Tape 180 AH-1 MR.. STI1HONS: money we are talking in terms of one of the mills, one of the intermediate size mills? MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, I do not mind doing that at all because we have done a lot of work on this programme. Looking at, for example, $75 thousand, that would be $7500 for a hundred thousand, that would be $15,000 for ~vo hundred thousand, So really you are looking at around 300,000 foot mills being able to get full working capital. Now bearing in mind it is only the . spring really, right now on the spring.

I would think that mill is producing, or that normally would annually produce up to a half million board feet, would be able to avail of the full working capital of this period. Now another year, if you are looking at ,say, mills that might start qualif'Vi.ng in December-which I am hoping ~1e put in -place -this present year, at the end of this year, I am thinking-then of course we will have to maybe extend the terms of the amount that could be qua1ified- for.

We are talking the bulk of our mills, the larger mill, the half ,~ozen larger mills, some of which have real problems, some of which we cannot help any further because they have problems that we just cannot overcome. MR. NEARY: Would Ralland Forest Industry be one of them? MR.. LUNDRIGA..1>l : The Ralland Forest Products on the Bay d'Espoir road? I am not in a position to comment in detail on that but we do have a package that we have put together that will be in place very, very shortly for that mill. MR.NEARY: A million dollars in public funds! MR. L~IDRIGAll: No, never mind a million dollars.

The member continues to critize us for not working at the- MR DOODY: He is the man for that. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Yes I am aware of that. I cannot quote my hon. colleague's comment. But we have a programme that will help that particular mill and we would like to indicate that it is under very competent new mana~ement and the mill has been producing very effectively. 512

February 10~1977 l'ape 180 AH-2 MR. NEARY: Where has Mr. Ralph gone? MR. S!fviHONS: Mr. Speaker~ first of all I would like to thank the minister for the additional information. The other question I wanted to put to him, if he does not mind, is do I understand that the only limit on the amount of funding available is that limit which is determined by the board feet production? In other words, there is no ceiling that they can only get X thousand dollars otherwise. Is that correct? Is there any ceiling on the amount of money a particular mill can qualify for other than the ceiling being dictated by their output?

MR. LUNDRIGAN: }1r. Speaker, I believe I indicated that in my statement. MR. SIMMONS: I did not get it, I am sorry. ~fR. LUNDRIGA...l\l': $20,000 ~. ~TMMnN~~ I am sorrv~ A2ain I thank thP minister. -MR. HO. COLLINS: Wastin2 th~ tim~ of t:hP l=l'nt1C!<>. - --- MR. SIMMONS: The Minister of Health is a little tender. He has reason to be. I read the same report he has been reading, 1~r. Speaker. I would like to say,though, before concluding, that I believe this particular effort by the department addresses itself to­ -r.m.. COLLINS: Listen to what is going on, or uait until question Period. MR. • STI!!-~mJs: 1-Ir.

Speaker, if the 1:-!inister of Health would like to make a speech, I am ,.dlling to yield. We never heard him make a speech, so this is as good a time as any for his maiden speech. ~IR. SPEAY..ER : Order, please! HR. SIMHONS: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the 1-1inister of Health if he disagrees with your ruling , the way to get about that• MR. SPEAKER: Order! Order, please! I must impress upon the hon gentlemen on both sides that the procedures under Ministerial Statements are well defined by our usage and th~v do not permit debate.

"~en an hon. gentleman to mv ri~ht is commentinR or askinr. for explanations, there should not be interjections from my left, and of c(lurse even if there are, thev should not he replied to. :Rut that is perhaps expectin~ the impossible. So the onlv way that the procedure :11_1

February 10, 1977 Tape 180 Ah-3 Mr. SPEAKER: can be properly applied is that it be without interruptions. The bon. member. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speakera I did want to say that I velieve that the announcement of the programme does address itself to a particular need at a time of the year when sawmill operators because they are not very ·well-heeled people financially, have -difficultly meeting payrolls and that kind of thing , have a cash flow ~roblem and it would seem that that is the problem and that this programme is intended to address itself to, and it is commendable in that context as well.

The minister made reference in his announcement I to last years somewhat abortive programme, abor~ive in the sense that it might have been a bit late getting started, as he said • Perhaps at some point we might expect to get a report on the success of last year's programme. We do not have it as yet,but I would certainly welcome .seeing that. I would assume also that in time the House would get a report on this particular programme. It is one thing, ~r.

Speaker, to hear . the announcement but at some point we ought to have an opportunity without waiting for the Public Accounts and the various reports~ some particular opportunity to adjudicate to what extent the programme has been successful in our view. 514

February 10, 1977 Tape No. 181 NM- 1 MR. SI~O~S: One final point on the subject, Mr. Speaker, is that I believe the ~nnouncement today calls to mind once again the need to rationalize the nolicy of tiMber permits as they relate to the smaller mills and I would hope that in time we could hear from the minister on that point. These smaller mills are having a lot of difficulty not because of the lack of equipment or the lack of management,but their inability to get at the logs that are in the woods, the lack of timber permits to allow them to ooerate on a year-round basis. Again, Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of my colleagues we welcome the statement and we anticipate it having some effect for good on the intermediate size s<n·7mil1 · We look forward to receiving reports to that effect. SOME RON. ME~~ERS: Hear! Hear! J.ffi.. SPEAKER: The han. 'finister of Fisheries. 'MR. H. CARTER: ~r. Speaker, I am ryleased to announce today that the Department of Fisheries will be spending a total of $600,000 during the next three montils to exoand and improve fishing facilities -------==:::: around the Province.

This amount ,Trhich is part of the government's recently announce~ $2 mt_l~ion j ob creation programme ,will be spent in the construction of community stages, bait holding units, gear sheds, and in the upgrading and improving of existing facilities. The work,which will create a total of 150 jobs,will get underway the last of February and will continue until the last of May.

These pro.iects,which are being carried out as a result of numerous requests from fishermen,will improve the fishing facilities around the Pr~·ince and will have the effect not only of providin~ som~ iT'lJT10cli.:1te emnlov·mo.nt hut once completed will have tl-te effect of enabling a number of our fishermen to be :th1 0 to more successfu] lv c.:1rr1 on in the fishing industry. '~r. Sn0al:er, T am nti it" nroud and quite h.:1npv to he nhlc to nnnounr:f' this nror,ramTTlC' :-1rd T ;:!'1 1wpin~,lil~e I said,thnt it will hnve th(' f'ffect -~ provi.clinro: ~;cv11' lon1~-tenn .iohs as well as some T.1T. .l .. l

February 10, 1977 Tape No. 181 NM- 2 MR. W. CARTER: short-term jobs. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. CAPT. ~ITN~OR: ~r. Speaker, needless to say we are happy on this side of the House to see that finally the Department of Fisheries is p,oing to have some real financial input into the fishing industry of this Province. Now it is worthy of note that the Minister of Social Services the other day announced that S700,000 would be spent to employ 400 jobs. And the ~inister of Fisheries has quoted a figure here of S600,000 and that amount of money ~.;rill only employ 150 men. MR..

BRETT: CAPT. ~ITNSOR: Why the difference? To supoly the materials. I am coming to that now. Would the minister be good enough to acknowledge ) does this amount cover material? And if so,how much? Hhere would the jobs be located, in what districts? And I appreciate the fact that the minister has not. finally arrangec where this work will take place,in which part of the Province or which districte MR. NEARY: The minister does not know. CAPT. HINSOR: The minister has said this programme will start by the end of February so ~ve have to give him a little leeway, providing he does not drift ashore. So, Mr.

Speaker, anything \.;rhich will create employment ~.;re welcome on this side of the House,and the facilities that the minister referred to here are badly need, have been badly needed for the past several vears,and it is now only on a crash programme that the ~inister of Fisheries and his department is r.oin~ to have some, although it is going to be meagerly, but a half a lo~f is hctter than no bread at nll, ~mel then• fore for the sake of th<> fis'!1f'rncn. for 'the sake of the improved facilities. because Hr.

Speaker~ if Nf'wfoundland fishermen are gains:?: t&'l imnrovc their nroduct .1nd produce a gnod 0U,'llitv of fish tl!f'v cannnt cio it unll'~S pr·.·· · ·:· L'lcilitles ilT!.' prnvldf•(l. And T al'l r.Llll t~1:tt thf' mini.~~tl'r i~; consdous of this fact,:md cv0n thnur,h late Wf' (lo :tppr£'clat£' it ;melT ,,m_ surr thf' ft.sherm0n of tht' Province H111 npnrf'ci,'lte f.t. llcnr! Jlcar! 51.6

tape no. 182 _MR., S·PEAI<ER: !he hon. Mini.ster of Fisheries. MR. W. GARTER: Mr.

Speaker, I want to beg leave of the House to taQl~ copies of telegrams that have been sent to the Page 1 - mw ij~n, Romeo LeBlanc,· the federal Mi~ister of Fisheries,concerning the elosing of the Gaultois fish plant; a copy of my telegram to the minister on January 24th. in which we made certain reconnnendations and ~~ressed a great deal of concern with respect to the then impending c:losure of that fish plant, to which the minister replied to the ~ffeetthat very little could be done in light of the need for conservation measures, but that if we were to get together and make certain recommendations that maybe he would be receptive.

So subsequently we have contacted the owners of the side trawlers in the Province, all side trawler operators, and discussed the matter. We have come up with several recommendations which we have now communicated to the minister and that are contained in the correspondence ~bat I am about to table. I might add, ~rr. Speaker, that the side trawler operators have requested changes in the management plans as indeed - and we have, of course, concurred with that recommendation.

They have requested that special consideration be given, special financial consideration be given to side trawler operators,to which we concur. They have agreed to subject their financial records to a very close scrutiny on the part of the federal Department of Fisheries should .they decide to make that financial assistance available. I think, Mr. Speaker, that the attitude of the side trawler operators is commendable. I think their cause is a good one.

And while I am not ignoring the need for conservation, especially in areas where certain species are endangered, but certainly I believe that in light of the serious implications of the closing of that plant in Gaultois, and maybe the closing of other plants in that area, that the federal minister should give some special consideration to these operators as requested in their telegram, and as supported in my telegram to the minister.

February 10, 1977 Tape no. 182 Page 2 - mw MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burin-Placentia West. MR. CANNING: Mr. Speaker, on this side of the House I am sure st of the members, particularly the members from the .Southwest Coast, e cognizant of the predictment that the Lake group fisheries terest have been placed owing to the curtailment of the catch.

And we fully agree that if it is at all possible, provided, of course, it can be done, possibly done to avoid depletion of the stock, and we sincerely hope that the reaction of .the - federal government will be suitable for that all-important industry on which the economy of that area of the coast totally depends. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.. SPEAKER: Are there any further statements by ministers? PRESENTING PETITIONS: The hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of some 123 voters of the community of Pacquet in my district.

The prayer of the petition is that the Department of Municipal Affairs, or the government through that department, take some action this year in starting to install an adequate water and sewer system in that community. Now, Mr. Speaker, in supporting the petition let me say that Pacquet is a growing community, and all indications are that it will continue to grow. Three-quarters of that community today, at this moment, is without water of any sort.

They have some sort of a - haphazard water system there over the last number of years, but it continues to freeze very often during the Winter, and at this particular time about three-quarters or seventy-five per -cent of the community is without water. The community has no form of sewer system whatsoever. Most residents have a septic tank system or something similar thereto, and consequently many parts of the community is a cesspool during the Summer. So we are talking about a health hazard as well as inadequate services. The people, I believe, ~tr. Speaker, have been very patient •.

They have seen those facilities being added to or improved or newly installed in communities close by them. They . were told last year that it -gould not be started because of restraints and retrenchment, 51R

February 10, 1977 Tape 183 "IB-1 'M'P.. PIDEOllT: but this year they would like to see at least a start. They ~o not expect $600,000 or $700,000 to complete it all in one year. They are not that unreasonable or that unrealistic. But they do expect a start. I think their prayer is reasonable and I fully support their pet:ttion and I ask that it be laid on the table of the House and referre~ to the department to which it relates. Sm~ HON. !4E~~EPS : Hear, hear! YP. .• SPEAKE!': The hon. ~e~ber for Trinity-Bay de Verde. 1-'P... POhlE : ~r.

Speaker, I would like to support the petition presented by my colleague from White Bay-Baie Verte (Hr.

Rideout) on behalf of 123 residents of the community of Pacouet in that particular district. ~like to make a small Sir, in supporting the petition I would just suggestion to the ~~inister of '!-funicipal Affairs and Housing concerning water and sewer systems,because there is a tremendous demand by many communities throughout the Province for such systems at the present time. vJhat I .am encounterin~ and ~vhat I am finding,and I am sure the minister is finding the same thing, is that the finalized specifications for such systems are terribly expensive.

I could think of a particular exa~ple, such as Bay de Verde, for example,where there is a system lo7t.dch i.s designed to cost somewhere in excess of $1 million. Now I think that in many cases what has been drafted up are Cadillac water and sewer systems for this Province for certain communities.

I think that an effort shoul~ be made by the minister and his officials to try to get the consulting engineers and what have you to desi~ systems that are efficient and sufficient to serve the people in these communities t-rithout having these gre~t Cadillac ,,T11tllti-mHHon dollar svstems that are beinr, designed by the engineers in this Provi.nce and consultants in this Province. I .1nst make that sup,gestion, !=:ir, in supporting the peti.tion. And I on hehalf of ll'Y coJ1e::1pues :t~ l·•ell ,,.J-toleheartedly support th:is pet1tion. 519

------------ ------------- February 10, 1977 Tape 183 IB-2 Sm.1E RON. ~1E!'mET'S : Hear, hear! PRESENTI~G PF.PClPTS BY STft.NnTNG ft~ID ~PF.~IAL rm-¥ITTEES: !o'R. SPEAKEr: The hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs. HR. }'trnp~ ~fr. Speake~,5 beg leave_: tab ~~ f ollowin v reports: The Automobile · nealer P. e ~at ions~ t he col l ection Agencies Regulations; ~lA"ort ~o.ke r ~gu at ions; ~it:io ·.al Sales v ~ L/-t . Regulations; and Bills Of Sale Regul ations. !-'F.. SPEAKE P : The bon. ~~in is ter of Social Services. Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave _ f ble the list of projects that I announced a cou There has been one change, ¥r. Speaker, in the Central region. There was a project there listed for Fortune Harbour and that has had to be changed because since then .------__ the · cornmunity has qualified for a LIP programme. So that project will be changed. NOTICES OF ~fOT!ON: 1':-!R. SPEAKER: The hon. 7'- 6 inister of Justice. MR. HICJ:Gf.AI~: ·vr.

Speaker, I give notice that I ~,rill on tomorrm-T ask leave to introduce the following bills: A bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt Ttvo Indentures Of Mortgage Relating To A !-<ill At Hawkes Bay And To }Ake Provision Respecting Patters r.onnected ThereY.Tith." }'eehanieal Recording Ae( " I ~ ) A bill, "An Act To ATI'end The Evidence A bill, "An Act To Amend The Chairman Of the Board Of Of Public HtHities Pension Act, 1974." \ 0 · \ --1 J \ ', __ ~MR.. SPEA..TZE'P: The hon. I'inister of Education. Commissioners 1':-fF. HOnSE: -r. ~ r.

Speaker, I give not ice that I will on tot!IOrroY.· ask leave to introduce: A bill, "An Act To Amenrl The !'epart-nent Cf Education Act." A bill, "An Act respect:fnr. The Estahli~hment Anrl Operation Of The Polytechnical Inst:f.tute Of Newfoundland." ~- \4->-( ~~. SPEAYEr.: The hon. ''inister of Consumer Affairs. 1-'r. "TTf''PHY: 'fr. Spe~ker, I r.jve notice that I ~d] 1 on tomorrm,, ask Jenve to 1ntrorluce: ~

February 10, 1977 Tape 183 IB-3 MR. MURPHY: A bill, "An Act To Amend The Landlord And Residential Tenancies Act." This has }P do lo.Tith mobile homes for anybody who wishes to kno~r. ~ / ~ 521

February 10, 1977, Tape 184, Page 1 -- apb ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, my question grows ~ut of everybody's favourite reading - could we co-ordinate our watches Mr. Speaker? I notice Your Honour is looking at his non-digital computer. I make it 3:30p.m. or two minutes past three-thirty which means Question Period is two minutes past four o'clock. Are we synchronized, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: Right. MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, my question arises out of \ the Auditor General's Report, specifically paragraph ~3 which relates to the Minister of Justice.

It is found on page 74, it is headed "Questionable use of public fu'l.cE ,·, and refers to the minister's action in having expended $2,400 for the travel of his special assistant,apparently only for the purpose of serving the minister s interests, a ey lll1:l'y-be, i n the a istrict of Grand Bank. Could the minister tell the House please, Mr. Speaker, whether he considers that this expenditure of ~ublic funds was a proper one? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKliAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

Are we then to assume, Sir, that any official of the public treasury or --~he public service may travel at the expense of the Treasury for matters what apparently are only of partisan political import? Mr. Speaker, I am shocked, amazed, astounded - SOME RON. l1EMB ERS : Oh, oh: MR. ROBERTS: Roll your eyes heavenward. MR. HIOOfAN: - or beyond comprehension that the Leader of the Opposition would say that looking after one's constituents, because I subscribe to the view that one should look r. 2 'J ~ ....

February 10, 1977, Tape 184, Page 2 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: after all the constituents, constitutes partisan politics. I am very proud and delighted to look after all of the constituents in the great electoral district of Grand Bank and I am sure the people of that district concur therein. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear ,hear! MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, I give notice orally and I shall do it imminently in writing that the minister's attitude -f or answer is unsatisfactory. I find it a brazen attempt to pervert the entire purpose of expenditure of public funds and ------.

I wish to debate it this afternoon on the late show, Sir. SOME HON. "M.IDmERS: Hear, hear! MR. HICKMAN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The on. the l.eader of the Opposition knows that the use of the 'pervert' - MEMBERS: You are out of order, boy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: He is on a_point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order! The bon. gentleman is on a point of order. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the bon. the Leader of the Opposition is fully aware, no matter what his views may be, but he is fully aware of the rules of the House which prohibit, preclude and totally disbar the use of the word 'pervert'.

I find it a very offensive word and I trust all other hon. members do as well. PREMIER MOORES: If you use one or know one. ~· ROBERTS: ~~e bon. gentleman Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. If can show a citation,well and good, or if he could show a rule, But in my view there is no such rule. There may be a citation. I said that I viewed the minister's approval of the expenditure of $2,400 in public funds for no other purpose other than that of his district, servin~ his district, not thP man for whom thP f!eopl ,e <'~ .· the district, 3q per CPnt of thPm at least, voted, hut rather, Mr.

Speaker, a puhlic servant who 523

February 10. 19771 Tape 184, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: is well paid by the public and now apparently is to be better paid, to claim $21 400. I view the minister's approval of that, Sir, and indeed his defence of it as be!ng a brazen perver~ior of public expenditure. If that is ~ut of order, Sir, I shall gladly withdraw it. But I submit. Sir, it is not out of order. I think, in fact, the only thing out of order is the minister's approval of the expenditure. SOME _!!_q_N. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: ;r- point of order. MR. NEARY: not get jumpy. Hear, hear!

I shall reserve a decision on that The hon. the member for LaPoile. Take it easy boys. Take it easy. Do Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question or two to the Minister of Mines and Energy. Would the Minister of Mines and Energy tell the House what transpired recently in the discussions between the minister and Eastcan in connection with drilling for gas and oil off Labrador? · MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, there are discussions ongoing ~ between Eastcan as ~ell as the other companies who have an interest ~ either real or desired off the Labrador coast and off the coast of the Island. These discussion hopefully will reach some conclusion before the month is out at which time a full report will be provided to the hon.members of the House. MR. NEARY: A suppl~entary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, would the minister indicate -- - ~ - to the ltouse if Eastcan indicated that they would be doing as "-\ ~1ch clrtllinp, off our coa~t tht~ v~~r A~ they did last year and in p~PVious y~nrs? Or do they intPnd, ns has been reported, to move their oil c:::,.;l r!o-1~1~1._1...,n.ug~r;...;:i:.!g:.::s:_.::t:.::o:_::o~f_:_f_:t~h:e_:::co::·:;ts:::_t ~o:f~G::_:' r:_:e:_:e:_:n::l:a::n:d~?­ ---~. SPF.AKP.R: The hon. the ~tnis ter of Hines and Eneq~y.

February 10, 1977 Tape No. 185 NM- 1 MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the position o~ Eastcant,as I understand it, is the same to me as what they Telated to the press through a press release last week in which they said they had made no decision to drill, nor no decision not to drill and that thev- were waitin~ ongoing discussions with the Government of the Province ~nd ongoing discussions with the other members of consortium. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, l'.fr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

NEARY: Would the minister indicate if the Province is allowed to have observers on these oil drilling rigs off our Coast to monitor the logs of the companies, the daily reports that are - ----made on each foot that is drilled? Are we allowed to have observers on these boats and if so is the minister in possession of the facts, the logs, in connection with the oil drilling and gas drillin~ that is going on off our coast? HR. SPEAY-ER: The hen. Minister of ~~ine!': and Ener~;r . MR.

PECKFORD: There is one,weekly and sometimes daily inspections by an engineer from the Department of Nines and Energy out on the oil rig l~hile the drilling is occurring and monitoring that, number one. Number t'tvo, we do get logs from all of the companies who do drilling and 'tve as a government or as a denartment examine those and. from time to time get other people to examine them for us if we do not have the expertise to establish if in fact what is stated to be the case is in fact the case as it relates to reservoir~~. ~ffi. ~! fA~Y: A sunnlementary ouestion, ~ 1 r. Snc<Jker. HR. SPEAKER: Yes.

This will be the fin.:tl surr J cmentary. ~R. ~1EARY: On th;<: imnort.:mt suhiect? "fr. Snen.ker, "'e could go on all dav ,..,i.th supplemcntar:!.es. Could thC' minister i.nrlic.'1te to the Pause if thf' minister's offici:lls in the minister's clenartt:lent are now in pnssession of t:1rs~ Jop,c;? \nr! <1nC's thl" r.~fnistC'r have staff adequate' uhn .Ire ahlf' tO intcrnrrt thP lrv>;s .1n<l i r ~W C'Clltld r. ') :­ .} "" .l

February 10, 1977 Tape No. 185 NM- 2 HR. NEARY: commercial strikes of gas and oil off Newfoundland or Labrador? Surely if the minister has access to the logs the government must be in a fair position to know if there is any gas or oil there in commercial quantities? HR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Hr. Speaker, we do have some people on staff who i are qualified to assess the lo~s. \o!e also from time to time ~ \ hire people who have a fair amount of expertise whom ,;e knmv of around the worlG, whom we also ask to examine them and give us an independent opinion.

Thirdly, because of the scattered geo~raphy of the drillinp, programme to date on the various acreage and the geological structures off Labrador, it is difficult to determine and to say with any degree of accuracy tvhether in fact there has been a commercial find. MR. NEARY: Could the oil companies cover up? MR. PECKFORD: All that we can sa~ is that the indications to date are extremely promising for that to evolve in the not too distant future. MR. SPEAKER : The han. member for 'Hindsor - Buchans. FLIGHT: A question for the Hinister of Mannower. Industrial Relatiors and I see he is not in his chair now.

OME HON. }ffiMRERS: Yes he is. MR. ROBERTS: Thev iust keen changing ministers. 'tR. FLIGHT: H~. Speaker, tvi th regard to the Ruchans Task Force the overrun of ~35,000, '~r.

Speaker, I am quotin~ direct from the Auditor General's Report, Sir • It says, "The consultant lvas advised by the task force to finisn the work first of all, and then submit his final billings together tvith an exnlanation of increasec~ costs.'' My question, Sir, is I want to know hmv and who on behalf of the Buchans Task Fot:"ce authorized the consult:mt to chan~e t.;rhat was a $2n,nno contract to an oncn end, no li~it, c0st nlus contract that eventually went to sss,nnn? l"fR. ROTH;:~TS : Hear! Hear!

February 10, 1977 Tape No. 185 NM- 3 MR. ROUSSEAU: I take that question under advisement, Mr. Speaker. MR. FLIGFT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SP~~K~R: A supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Then I would ask the minister as to why his department recommended the payment of the extra $35,000? :HR. R0USSEAU: I take that question under advisement, Hr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: ~1r.

Sneal:er, to the minister, a further supplementary • ~ould the minister indicate to the House whether this matter of the serious overrun and the apparent complete lack of control over public expenditure in this respect had been brought to his attention before the Auditor General's Report was made public in the House this week? MR. SP~AKER : The han. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. MR. ROUSSEAU: Thank you very much. I like that opportunity.

I do not deny that I received a draft copy of the Auditor General's Report a couple of mont~s ago, I think all ministers do, and we are asked to - it is a draft copy Qf the Report - 'MR. ROBERTS: And all ministers do,as the minister said. MR. ROUSSEAU: Oh yes, and we are asked to reply to it, which each department of course renlies as to the allegations made by the .- Auditor General. T\Te did that. Until the report is tabled in the House we do not knmv whether the answers ~ve have given have been accepted or not by the Auditor General.

So in that vein I say that the only time we see it or know what is finally in it, although we have an indication of what is in a draft reply, is when it is tabled in the !~use and I have asked MY officials,as I su~gested yesterday, and T am not tryin~ to be abrasive to the hon. member for Windsor - Buchc-ms (:!r. Flight), to verify replies to those ans,.,rers and lvhen I h:wc thcl'l vou Hi 11 h:wc thPm. r::l2 ~ .. '

February 10, l977 tape no. 186 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: I will allow one further supplementary. ~IR. FLIGHT: Sir, in asking a supplementary, in all due respect, I want to indicate that I am aware that the present minister is not the minister who was responsible for the Buchans Task Force, either the performance or the setting up of such. However, I would like to ask the minister just who was responsible for the supervision of the work done, the work done on the job that went from $20,000 to $55,000? Was it the Buchans Task Force or was it the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. ROUSSEAU: That would again be taken under advisement. When I have the answer - they are preparing it now - the hon. member will have it. You know, I say that, and that is all I can say. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity- Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Hinister of Education. Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the amount of $150,000 for the transportation of handicapped children was paid to sundry persons and companies, could the minister indicate why these payments were made without written contracts between the suppliers and the government?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, the bus transportation- money is made ~available for bustransportation and regulations governing school boards. And we have a lot of schools, of course, who are operating where the mentally retarded, for instance, do not come under school boards. And in the year before last estimates there was no heading to cover that. So that has been remedied by putting a heading for bus transportation for special education.

With respect to contracts being called, we have had a long-term contract with Hancli c.:1hs, for instanc~. for thP schools here in town, and the only people that are equipped to bus these pupils. i\nd it is not a written contr;Jct. It is just that we t1ave to negotiate with them. With respect tn around the Province,we have a number of problems. We have a child, for instance, in a small conununity, r: ') C'l . ) '"' :"

February 10, 1977 T_ape no. 186 Page 2 - mw Mr. House. just one child,who cannot use regular transportation. There is no sense in calling tenders. There is no way we can call tenders, because there are no people there to bus that particular person. We have to go and negotiate with a person, and they do it basically for a very cheap rate, and it would be a senseless waste of money to advertise. And that is going on all over the Province. I want to point that out very clearly. Practically every community got a child that cannot use regular transportation.

We have to go and get somebody and the taxi people will not do it, because it ties them up on regular times, and we have to negotiate sometimes with a teacher, and sometimes with some parent or man who has a car in the community. And that is why these amounts of money were spent for that tender. MR. ROWE: A supplementary. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, could the minister indicate why no ~ublic tenders were invited for these particular contracts, and ~~uld he also indicate - MR. HOUSE: I just told him that. sam: ll0N. MEHBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROWE: That is very funny. MR. SPEAKER: Order!

SOHE HON. 't-!El'ffiERS : Oh, oh! MR. RO't-."E: You have a Public Tenders Act. MR. RIDEOUT: It is a joke to them. MR. ROWE: It is a joke. That is exactly what it is. Could the minister indicate, Sir, why no public tenders were called for these contracts, and who the people were who got these contracts, and the amount of money that was received by these individuals? r:zn .l :1

February 10, 1977 Tape no. 186 Page 3 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: I may be able to get that information. It would take some time so I will take it under advisement. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROWE: Sir, could the minister indicate whether these payments were processed through the Supervisor of Transportatio~s ~partment, which is required by law? And why these payments were not made as grants to school boards,which is required by law? Is the minister going to answer, Mr. Speaker? MR.

HOUSE: I did not get the full import of the question, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROWE: Could I repeat it? Mr. Speaker, could the minister indicate why these payments were not made as grants to the schools boards as required by the law? And also why these payments were not processed through the Supervisor of Transportation as required by law? MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. HOUSE: Hr. Speaker, I will take that question under advisement, but I thought that I made that clear in my first answer. MR. ROWE: No! No! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir followed by the hon. member for Carbonear.

February 10, 1977 Tape 187 D-1 l-m. SU~"'NS : Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. t:he Premier. I refer him to page 66 of the public accounts for the ~ar ended ?~rch, 1976. A number of items here: Official entertainment by the Premier, $10,000; supplies for the executive aircraft, $3,000. But I want to come to another one, J-~r. Speaker, f~r the til!le being. I am sure the Prender has anSl~rs fC'Ir the t:\.'0 I have just raised. But I want insteac to cirect: him to about the center of the page,'l.uncheon re Cabinet meeting in Gander. Cost, $1,791. ,. ~ould the - }!R. 'P..Olo1E: Say that again. l"'Y_.

S D"'"'NS : Seventeen hundre~ and ninety-one dollars. Y.:r. Speaker, w--hat I would like to kno" .. first of all - ~- · NEARY: ~!ust have been a big one that day. 'MR. SPEJ...KER: Order, please! l"R. POBEP.TS: It was orcered, that is what happened t~ it, $1,791. ~-· SD1~NS: Now I would lil:e to know first of all frol"' the Premer ~ether this is indeed a -correct ent;y and if we can ass~e 'that there ~s $1,7~1 spent on a luncheon in connection l."i.th the Cabinet l!!eet:ing at Gander. The hon. the Premier. P~.£!-'IER }'OOP..ES: ¥r. Speaker, I am sure the ro.ernber for Burgeo-Eay ~'Espoir (~_r.

S:i.mmons) must assume it is a correct answer~ because after all ~~ere he gets,as he gets most of his inforrnation,is from tbe Auditor Ceneral. So I asSlm'e it is correct. Ah, he is tender today. PRD!IER MOORES: There is nothing "~ng with that. I mean~that is <;:/ a backup fC~r your credibility. Tender! A good backup by the "-1ay. ~- SP."-~n}1S: The AurUtor General is saying the same thing about you. / 'P'P."F.'"IE'R !'nn,..ES: vr. S-pe~ker, havinr, said that, and havi n~ been askec :he ouest ion, aJ J these can he ans~·en•r jn detail.

Fut if 1 re~e~r.e- CC'lrrect] y,that '{>articu]ar T"E'etinf. ~-•as a rabinet 1!1eetinr he] r, :In r;mr'er 531

February 10, 1977 Tape 187 IB-2 PREMIE'P.. 1-fOORES : where the mayors from every municipality in the region, where representatives from all the people in the region, iorhere people with a vested interest in what government was doing in the region came and met government and that, Sir, I would suggest is cheap at half the price. SOME RON • :M:E}ffiERS : Hear, hear! J.~. Sll~ONS : A supplementary. ?-CR. SPE.AKEP: A supplementary. MR. SP~0NS: ~!r. Speaker, a supplementary for the Premier. I wonder could the tninister table the information to j_ndicate ;.:no ~.ras there.

The entry is not obviously at all correct if, as it says, it is a luncheon meeting for Cabinet. That would be a bad misuse of government funds. t If there were others - I do not particularly, l'r. Speaker, without doubting his lvorcl, I do not particularly ~·:ant to take his word for it. I would like to know who "t<-ras at the meeting and if it therefore is a proper charge on the public accpunts of this Province. Could he table the information he has alluded to? PPE¥IER MOORES: ¥.r.

Speaker, I do not know ~·:rhat minister lvill, but I eertainly "to7ill be only too glad to cl.o it in this particular regard. '-~ I would suggest also that not only l•rould I table the infortT!ation of who "t-Yas there but I also would sug£'.eSt, Sir, maybe l''e should table at the same time the information of "-7hat Tf."aS cliscussec. I think l!'.aybe we should talk about some of the concerns of the peopJ e "rho were there and l•!hy this money 't-Yas ;.rell spent. Sm'E HnN. '·'EMBE'I?S: Hear, hear!

P'PE~ER Y0~""RES: And "-'e also, Sir, woulrl sug~est that such a meeting vould be advisable on the South Coast and I would even sugRest that the hon. metTlher might shaH up and fjnd out Phat :fs going on as far as government's people are concerned. Hear, hear! A suppleJTientary, "r. Spe<~ker. One further supple~cntnrv. I thank the Premier for hh; invitation. T sh .'lll nttend r: 3 ') .) . ....

February 10, 1977 Tape 187 IB-3 Y.'R. SJT-I}'ONS: the meeting on the South r.oast. I hope the fare is at least as good as it was at Gander. Would the Premier indicate about how many people attended the meeting~ I would like to get some idea. If only the Cabinet attended that is $11)0 a plate and that is a fafrly expensive meal. Could he indicate how many were there? Ten? One hundred? PREMIER l~OOP.ES: :r~r. Speaker, I have alreacly said I will list every ~rson who was there and surely even the hon. member for Burgeo­ LaPoile can then add. MR. 'WHITE: Burgeo-LaPoile? MR. NEARY: No,not LaPoile,please.

PREMIER. 1>fOOPFf : Burgeo-Bay D'Fspoir, sorry. ~. SU1!0NS: 1·fr. Speaker, a supplementary. ~'R. SPEAKEP ~ I had indicated that that ~-rould be the last supplementary and I think I should stic!~ with that because there are a number of hon. members ,.mo apparentJy still wish to ask questj_ons. The hon. roember for Carbonear. N~ .• R. :rKOOP..FS: A question, Yr. Speaker, for the '~-'inister of Social Services re the most recent Auditor General's report, page 77, \ paragraph 65.

The Auditor General discloses that social· assistance claims,recoverable claims estimated to be slightly over $2 milljon, which is a fifty per cent increase over the previous year, ~.;ras issued by the min:i.ster 's department. ~·!hat steps if any has the T'linister or his department officials taken or H:f.ll be taking tCl recover those __ amounts?

February 10, 1977 Tape 188 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: It will take a while to answer that one, Mr. Speaker. It is true that the amount of money recoverable increased somewhat in the last year. And the reason for it is that I think it is only- two years ago that we reached an agreement with the Unemployment Insurance Commission for consignments, that is, they would consign welfare benefits where there was overlapping to the department. And now that we are receiving these benefits, we are going back almost to the beginning of a client's file.

And the end result is that we are picking up overpayments that may not have been picked up right back, I think, to 1952. The hon. member asked what steps are being taken. I would suggest, Hr. Speaker, that we have probably the best system -I will not go so far as to say the only one, I know a lot of the provinces do not have any at all- we certainly have the best system in Canada of recovering overpayments. ! .noticed that the media yesterday indicated that we paid out something like $2 million in overpayments to people, some of them who are receivi?g unemployment insurance. Now this is absolutely false.

There is no one in this Province receiving unemplo)~ent insurance and social assistance at the same time unless it is a supplement. But actually what happens is this, we could have and we do have clients walk into the welfare office who have made application for unemployment insurance; they are eligible, they are not receiving. It is b~o different things. They are eligible but not in receipt of. In the meantime they have a family and they are hungry. Because we are humane - MR. NEARY: They are in among the computer. HR.

BRETT: - Exactly. - department, because we are concerned we have to assist, first for a two week period. This is normal. The t•<1o ~.Jeeks are up and they ar·e forced to come back because they still have not received unemployment insurance. And sometines this can go on for a long period, maybe two or three months, and all of the time T.: 3, .) • 't

February 10, 1977 Tape 188 PK - 2 Mr. Brett: they are getting social assistance. In the meantime, the claim finally gets through the computer~ all the bureaucratic red tape, and suddenly the client ends up with a cheque for $400 or $500. Now the person was not in receipt of unemployment insurance, he was eligible. Now when this large amount of money comes, of course, there is this big overpayment. But I contend, Mr. Speaker, that if the Auditor Ger.eral would like to have these people on his conscience, well fine, but I do not want them on mine.

And this government, of course, is obligated to care for the indigent people of the Province,which is exactly what we are doing in this case. Just for the record, Mr. Speaker, to suggest that we are not making any effort or not recovering anything, I would like to quote these figures. During the period from October 1, 1975 to September 30, 1976 my department collected $517,000 in overpayments, $239,000 of which was in cash, and $278,000 was recovered from people who were receiving allowances. SOME RON. HEHBERS: Hear, hear! MR. R. HOORES: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. R.

MOORES: I hope the hon. minister does not think that I am being facetious here, but when and if the department recovers these 1l recoverable claims is the minister prepared to contemplate starting SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! The hon. member for Terra Nova, followed by the hon. member for Lapoile, and the hon. gentleman for Fortune-Hermitage. HR.. T. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I have ~anpower and Industrial Relations. a question for the Hinister of And it relates to again an item in the Auditor General's report under paragraph (4), which is headed with r-ayment without aprropriation for unused accommodation'~ And it r.:3r.: .) \ .l

February 10, 1977 Tape 188 PK - 3 Mr. Lush: refers to a mobile home that was rented by his department from October,1974 to May,1975 for a period of seven months. Nobody lived in the mobile home, but there are expenditures up to $2621 for payment of rent and other payments. I wonder

February 10, 1977 Tape no. 189 Page 1 - mw Mr. Lush. if the minister is in a position to inform the House as to what purpose this mobile home was rented for? MR. ROUSSEAU: That mobile home, Mr. Speaker, was rented for the grandiose purpose of placing somebody from the Department of ~~npower and Industrial Relations in the grand and historic and \\onderful district of Labrador West to serve the people up there as an apprentice training officer. SOME HON. }ffiMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. LUSH: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member is asking a supplementary. MR. LUSH: A supplementary.

The Auditor General also refers to the fact that out of the figure of $2,621 that $1,103 was ~ for repairs which became necessary because the department did not -~rovi d e for proper care, and I wonder if the minister can explain this situation? MR. ROUSSEAU: I recall this one. Ihis was the time between the leaving of one apprenticeship officer - there was a time gap there between the time one quit the job and another was taken on. There was some vandalism caused, and because of the cold weather and so on. It was not occupied although it was taken care of to the best of the ability of the people in the area.

There were some problems with it during that interval between the loss of one apprenticeship officer and the next one, and that ~aused deterioration in it, and the rent was not collected, of course, during that time, because for a period of a couple of months, I think,or so, that the cold weather plus the fact that nobody was taking care of it caused some deterioration in it. HR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Hinister of Nines and Energy.

Would the minister indicate to the House what the new Energ y Corporation that was just s et up by the three Haritime Provinces, \vhat th.J.t will do for the development of hydro power in this Province? r: ') . .., ,} 'l l

February 10, 1977 Tape no. 189 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, over the last three or four years the provinces, three Maritime and ourselves, really the Atlantic Provinces, with the federal government have been discussing this whole idea of a Maritime Energy Corporation or an Atlantic Energy Corporation. Because possibly of the impending election in Nova Scotia, it has been given some impetus in the last several months.

But in any case the energy people, especially in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, who have been worried about energy supplies and New Brunswick's insistence on going nuclear, and Nova Scotia's insistence on not going nuclear and P.E.I. with the cable across - now that is going to be done this year - have come together to form this corporation.

From the news reports, and I do not have a copy of the memorandum agreement on it yet , from the reports that I hear it is supposed to be a regional energy corporation which will have some equity participation by the federal government, which will begin to try to buy energy supplies for all three provinces, and then distribute it later through the respective power corporations and crown corporations in the various provinces. It would seem that the most likely source available competitive power would be from a hydro source primarily in Labrador, and that is where Newfoundland would come in on the scene.

We have a meeting arranged for four days from now with the Nova Scotia Power Corporation and our own Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro in which this whole matter will be discussed, this new corporation. And we will be talking to federal officials about it as well. We are hopeful that this is a good move, that this will enhance the opportunities of us developing our own hydro resource. What the role will be of the various provincial corporations,vis-~-vis the new }!aritime one,is an important question, The exact terms of reference, the exact involvement with the federal government in it, because 53~

¥ebruary 10, 1977 Tape no. 189 Page J - mw Mr. Peckford. Mr. Gillespie has said that they will be involved, are questions that1will have to be answered, and how quickly this corporation can get into place to do that kind of regional thing that obviously the feds want and the three provinces want. But it would it would look like it could possibly speed the whole development of Labrador power along quicker than would otherwise be the case. That still remains to be seen, but it is a hopeful sign that I am sure all the provinces are eager to pursue. MR. NEARY: ~~. Speaker, a supplementary question. MR.

SPEAKER: There being time for only one further question, I think I should recognize the han. gentleman for Windsor-Buchans. MR. NEARY: Well,! have a supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I realize the han. gentleman would like to ask ~upplementary. The rules do specify that a number of supplementaries - w~ I can find the exact wording here - the effect of it is that supplementaries - "A reasonable number of supplementary questions arising out of a minister's reply to an oral question may be asked by any member," arid starts off, "in the discretion of th~ Speaker .. " MR.

NEA.ltY : But I have not had a supplementary yet, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I really cannot allow the hon. gentleman to debate with me. I will read specifically what Standing Order 31 (

b) says: "In the discretion of Hr.

Speaker, a reasonable number of supplementary questions arising out of a minister's reply to an oral question may be asked by any members." And the same Standing Order (f): "The Speaker's rulings relating to oral questions are not debatable or subject to an appeal." ~1y procedure on supplementaries is to, as far as I can, allow a reasonable number and bearing in mind ho\.; many I will allow, or any ~is related to, among other L.1ctors, llm' much more time there is in t!1e ~uestion Period and 'l.'rwtht'r or uot th~re are other members who have a question to ask and have not: h~1J t>,l· opportunity to ask it MR. ~EARY: That is not what the l\ulLs of t)rdc.r s.<y, Hr.

Speaker. They say, a reasonable number.

February 10, 1977 Tape No. 190 NM- 1 MR. SPF..AKF.R: Order, please! MR. NEARY: We either follmt the rules or else we do not. MR. SPEAKER: Order, pleEJse! The rules do not permit me to enter into debate with the hon. gentleman. The same rule does not permit the hon. gentleman to enter into debate with me. This is not a personal matter. Any authority that any Speaker has is an authority of the House. The hon. gentleman is saying nothing ~-hich as ~ar as I am personally concerned has any personal effect.

But as I understand it,it is my duty to uphold the House's authority and it is the House's authority that the hon. gentleman is now criticizing anc~ he may not do it. Now I will ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw his remarks. I hope he does. I have always regarded the hon. gentleman as one of those in this House who have upheld the Chair ,and I would ask him now to ~V'ithdraw those remarks to the House. HR. NEARY: Well, Hr. Speaker, I ~\'ithdraw. And Your Honour is quite right, I ah"ays uphold the rules of the House and I withdraw. Can I have a supplementary question nm"? SOME HON. MEHBERS : Oh ! Oh! MR.

SPEAKER: I understand nobody may ask any question now. The time is up. ORDERS OF THE DAY: ~. SPEAKER: before the House on the debate on the Address in Reply. The hon. the ~rinister of !'tines and Energy. MR. 'PECKFORD: ~urned the ~r. Speaker, a couple of days ago t\'hen I debate on the amendment to the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne.,! had pointed out to the hon. House in response to a numher of charges laid this \vay hy the Leader of the Opposition in his speech in '"hich he presented the Opposition's position :ts it re>lated to tlu~ SpP.ech froM the Throne,that his '

February 10,-1977 Tape No. 190 NM- 2 :MR. PECKFORD: negative comments relating to the state of the Province economically was not totally correct. In fact, Hr. Spe~ker, from the information that I gave the other evening most of what the Leader of the Opposition ~aid bears little resemblance to l-rhat one can find if one looks to various economists in the Province or outside the Province,or to a number of very salient facts about the economy of the Province in 1976.

As I pointed out at that time, contrary to oopular opinion or oopular attitude, unemployment oercenta~e rates in 1976 actually dropped from what they w,ere in. 1975. And this does not indicate a deteriorating condition in the overall employment or unemployment situation in the Province, that there was positive grm-1th in the economv in 1976, that personal income was up by sixteen per cent

whereas the national average l-7as thirteen per cent, that the real increase in growth was around five to six per cent in personal income when one takes i~to account inflation, that there was an increase in residential investment in 1976, that there was an increase in overall investment in the Province of seven per cent in dollar terms in 1976, that there was an increase in pulo and paper industry in dollar terms up fifteen per cent in 1976, that there 't.-ras an increase in fish landings in 1976 of seventeen per cent, that there -was an increase in mineral output in the Province in 1976, a thirty-seven per cent increase up to S756 million.

And so that all of these indicators are important indicators to suggest that rather than havinp, a stagnant econorny~,;.vhen one puts it in the cor.text of inflation, restraint times and so en, instead of a stagnant economy we have had a fairly vibrant economy in the context of the country as a l-Jhole, really in the context of the whole world as a whole.

So there are a numhcr of very st~nificant indicators that sngt!est to this r,overnment. that sug~est to T:JL' th:lt the economv is not in the kind of condition that tl1e T.e:Hlcr 0f t ' te nnros it ion '.vould lean US to belieVe in his speech the nt 1H'r O~V. 541

February 10,1977 Tape 191 AH-1 MR. PECKFORD: I went on to indicate,because the leader of the Opposition had tried to persuade and indicate to this hon.

House and through it to the public of Newfoundland that this government was not living up to its commitment of trying to divert valuable monies from the social sector of the government to the resource sector, that we were not living up to our commitments of providing the people of Newfoundland with the leadership i~ the resource sector that 't·7aS needed to create and generate the new dollars that could then go back both into the resource sector and into providing the social services that we all want. And on that point,Mr.

Sneaker, I suggested that I could not understand that kind of a comment coming from the other side , l~ecause it flies in the face of very hard facts that are easily obtainable or can be gotten by the Leader of the Opposition or anybody on the other side. I wondered out loud and questioned what does the Leader of the Opposition or anybody else think '\orhen in Rural Development we increase the incentive grants to industr;, from 1?73 to 1?76 fron $15,000 to $430 ,fJ(lf). Was not that an indication that the g.overnment had moved money into the resource sector as far as government was concerned?

Is not the fact that mineral development, money spent by government~ have increased from S343,0fJO to $1.322 million: an indication of priorities on resource development by this administration. Is not the fact that fisheries incentives and assistance have increased'from $7nn,nnn to $1.2 million in three years, from 1973 to 197~, an indication that this government has been givinP, some emnhasis to the resource sector of our economy. That residential construction on capitol account h:we p.one un from $2.8 million to Sln.s million in three ye~rs, a lot of it federal funds , some of it provincial funds.

And a11 the funds to~ether were funds that were made possible hv the effortc; of the nrovincial

February 10,977 Tape 191 AR -2 MR.. PECKFORD : government in ~etting their own and in going after the other programmes that Otta"t-m has to offer. This created jobs. This is activity. This indicates some bouyancy in the residential aspect or building aspect of our economy. Forest access roads , for example, in the resource sector, Hhere ~,·e went from $7nn,ooo in that to $5.5 million in three short years. In years of restraint, in years of hard borrowin~, in years when we were not suppose to he doing anything for the resource sector.

Is this not an indication that the attitude that we have indicated to the Newfoundland people that we want to emphasis resort development actually accured. These are facts , Hr •• Speaker, that are readily available, that many of the individuals in rural Newfoundland are ve~! cognizant of because they have participated in many of these programmes. In agriculture, for example, how '"'e have increasee the loans and grants available to farmers to try to get more farmers on stream, to try to cultivate their land , to provide storage facilities for them, to provide equipment banks.

There is a nuflber of equipment banks in operation right now to provide machinery to farmers around the province. And v7e have increased that tremendously over the last number of years , to $4 million or $5million to less than a $1 million three years ago. And so I l!las trying to indicate, J·~r. Speaker, at that time, that as far as emphasis goes, as far as putting into practice the kind of thing, the kind of ideas and philosophy· that we have been preaching over the last four or five years, that this is hard concrete evidence that we have done ~.;hat ~ve said t·7e were going to do.

That is not to say that '"e would not like to do more. There is a lot more to be done in tre resource sector. Everybody agrees that one can hardly put too much into that kind of programmes so that ,,.e can generate the ne·p doll :1r!': tl-Iat are needed on the social ~ · de of thin!'"s. And T fC'rfot to T'lention. '-fr. Spel·er, the other night, in talkin~ about the resource sector and how wuch thf' aclmini.~tration is trvinr; to no there, t-•ho can nuestion or Hl:o can r: , '1 ,) ·t ·'

February 10,1977 Tape 191 AH- 3 MR. PF.CKFORD : criticize , or t-7ho can look datm upon and condem the major effort made hv the ~in~ster of Industrial Development ' in the last several months !n bringing to the Marystown Shipyard a $20 million contract for a Norwegian tugs to provide steady , stable employment for that particular industry for the next year or two years. Now we are working diligently on another contract for another foreign country. And if this does not ••

February 10, 1977 Tape 192 IB-1 MR. PECKFOrn: indicate some emphasis on industrial development, our mineral agreement of $12 million, six times over the previous one, our agreement in Labrador that the bon. Minister responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs was able to negotiate, these are all indications.

And when you add up all those figures and compare the~ with the figures, the kinds of expenditures, even three short years ago -forget about comparing it with the previous administration, let us compare it with ourselves and see if we can stack up against ourselves and what we said - and we come out on the positive side in almost every case. At the same time and simultaneously we have tried to provide the kind of social services that ~1ere needed. There were still ne,,7 senior citizens homes going up. There were still many roads beinf!. built and reconstructed.

There lvere still !!'.any roads being paverl at the same tiiDe, water and sewer systems going in in many places around the Province. Last year we spent just on,water and seFer on capital account around $25 million and it has averaged around $20 ~lion to $25 million for the last three or four years. But what we have been saying, }!r.

Speaker, and with a great oeal of validity,and we have got to keep saying it, not just for next year, for 1977 or 1978 or 1979, we have got to keep saying it for the foreseeable future, that if we do have that future that we all ~·:rant we have got to continue to say and believe in and make it fact that a lot of our effort has to be diverted to the resource sector. Because it is no ~ood havinp, running water and sewerap,e ]n everv house in this Province if we do not have some"to.•here for those peorle who reside in that house a place to work somewhere around thejr oPn area. The is the crux of the whole situation.

If we are serious, as I was indicating the other night, if ,.·e are really serious about th:fs Rnd believe 1t,,every member :in this House regarcless of what side you are on h1'1.s to show some ] (';ll 1 l'r~~!lip in his m .. "TI constituency and with h:fs own friends in inrlicCJtin~ th:1t

February 10, 1977 Tape 192 IB-2 NR. PECKFORD : it must be a priority for us as politicians and for you as a business leader or you as a chairman of a community council or you as president of the PTA or whatever to understand one basic little thing about this Province that has always been true and will continue to be true for some time in the future: We are a have-not Province. We have a very poor credit rating.

We are trying to pull ourselves up by our boot straps. vfuen you are requesting social services especially from p,overnrnent you have got to '~>'e:!gh that all, Fhether a sa~~ill might be better in your area for the next two years rather than a sophisticated ~,·ater and sewer system.

Then if we can provide thirty or forty jobs for a sa~·mtill in that area~I am sure that the people who are all lvorking then l.'ould be more lvilling to pay an increase in their community taxes to help say to governreent, "Okay government, you cannot give us one hundred per cent; how about eighty per cent." That \vould make government a lot I!1.ore responsive :fn that area.

So if you have got a trade off betlveen putting money into a sa":rnill in a given region and a water and sewer system, the easy way out, the easy political expedient ll'aY out is to try for the l\Tater and sewer system and to for~et the long-term benefits of a ~ore permanent type of industry 't-7h5ch \vill provide employment for those people. The social services are going to come,but they are going to have to be stretche~ out over a longer period of tj~e. So that is the kind of emphasis this adninistration 1~s been giving to this Province.

These are the facts. ~ole have been accused of no policies and no programmes, we have been doing things on an ad hoc basis. How can anyone say that with anv degree - they Must almost turn rec "to.·hen one looks at them. The l·lhole revalT'pinr, of the mineral policy of the Province, the \mole revamping of the forest inclustry of the Province ldth policies in place in "to:tdch millions of doJl:1rs are roinr since 1974. And the finnl pPrt of the Mineral policy Hill he in pl;1ce before this Sprir~ is Ollt Pith le~:is]:ltion

February 10, 1977 Tape 192 IB-3 'fdR. PECKFOP.D: that will be before the House. How can anyone accuse us of no policy on sal\'JI'Iilling as came up today by the J'::i..n:fster of Rural nevelopment when he announced additio~l programmes to try to help the sawrnilling industry? P.ural r£velopment and .. ~!.""' . , t l

February 10, 1977 Tape 193 PK - 1 Mr. Peckford: our policies in rural development~ our policies on Labrador power. And as I indicated the other nighc we can be rightly accused in the short-term of spending $250 million on which we have no return, $250 million gone because of our purchase of shares in CFLCo, number one, which I do not consider.

I cannot accept that argument at all of $160 million for the purchase of rights so that we have some control of our own destiny as it relates to maj-or developments, which will help make us the kind of Province that we all want to be so we will not always have to be saying, no social service and all resource. That we have some kind of control over the kind of development that will occur there. That is important. And that I do not think can be argued with in any context. But the expenditure on the Gull Island project>we did it because we thought we were going to get the whole thing going.

That we thought we would be able to negotiate some sensible arrangement with the Province of Quebec, some sensible arrangement. But the sensible arrangement today is not three or four or five or six mil power. Does anybody realize that right on site in Gull Island, if it was developed tomorrow morning,and if you had a house right next to the development, and you wanted to have pm~er in that house, and you strung a line, how much it would cost youi You are talking fifteen mil power right there before you start transmitting the power anyv1here else. Nova Scotia is talking thirty and forty mil power.

Everywhere they are. And so therefore we have spent $70 to $80 million on the Gull Island site. And it has been stopped. And as I indicated our policy, our clear,public,private,personal policy as it relates to pmver, especially the Gull Island power and the Five Rivers and Nuskrat and all the rest is simple, we are r,oinr, at it on a three­ prong basis. We have to have markets for the surplus of the power at Gull Island to rn<lke the prnject fly.

In order to get markets we have to nove our pover to ~.orhere th£> market;; <Jr£>, t'itlll'r to the ~faritines or Ontnrio or down in the linitec: St<Jtf.'s. /me! so transr:ds!;ion becomes

February 10 , 1977 Tape 193 PK - 2 Mr. Peckford: the chief element in it. The transmission of that power can only go in two directions, it can go through Quebec and on to its markets either in the 11aritimes or down in the United States or it can go the much touted Anglo-Saxon route which is under study. MR. SMALLWOOD: t-iould the minister yield a moment? MR. PECKFORD: Sure. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Will he tell the House whether it really matters to Newfoundland where it is sold, if it is to go out of the Province, and I think the minister perhaps is talking about surplus power, power that is surplus to our own needs within the Province, now or in the reasonable future, does it matter very much or at all to the Province where the power goes if it goes out of the Province, where it it sold provided the price is the same if it is sold to the }iaritime Provinces or some of it to the Maritime Provinces and some it down through New England or up around to Ontario or to Quebec, all of our surplus, say, to Quebec, they using what they want to use of ;t---, and they selling the rest of it' If the price received by us is the same does it matter where we sell our surplus pow·er?

MR. PECKFORD : No it does not. MR.. SMALUJOOD : Then would the minister draw the inferences there are to be drawn from that fact? HR. PECKFORD: It does not make any difference to us as long as we can sell it at a price that we are satisfied to sell it at. That is all. The third option is the one I mentioned the other night Fhi.ch Also was to try to attract industrial customers in here so we do not have to transmit any of this surplus. MR. SMALLWOOD: But we are talking onlv of ~.;hat is surT" · "S? MR. PF.CKFORD: Yes. MR. ST'1ALLWOOD: vfuat all customers in the Province do not wan: : HR. PECKFORD: Yes.

February 10, 1977 MR.. SMALLWOOD: MR.. PECKFORD: MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. PECKFORD: Tape 193 What is surplus? Right. If any? ·pK- 3 Right. And I do not think the government minds at all who the customer is as long,as the show on television says,"The price is right" if we can get the proper price for it. But we cannot afford any more than that. And that is what, as the hen. member from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) knows.

This evening in the late show I have to reply to a question that an bon. gentleman on the other side asked the other day to which they said they were dissatisfied concerning the whole business of Knob Lake and Schefferville and so on. And, you know, when you go and do a little bit of research on it and, find out the legislation way back before the hen. gentleman's time, back in the 1940s and 1930s and so on, when these acts were passed and so on, how difficult it puts the present government, and the present minister , if you will, or whatever to negotiate better ag~eements on something that is sort of sacred.

And I relate that to now

February 10, 1977, Tape 194, Page 1 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: is that we have to be very careful as a Province that when we are going into major significant resource development projects that we have to be very careful that we get the best possible deal ~hat we can for the development, the best possible deal that we can get, and that must not be out of line with other deals, like deals somehwere else in the world, it must not be unlike it. If we have advantages and so on we must be able to negotiate them so we get a fair and equitable deal with reopener clauses and all the rest of it in there. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Would the minister, and I am very grateful to him for his generosity in yielding the floor to ~me because it is a matter that affects the very life of everyone alive in this Chamber, our families, our children, grandchildren, all Newfoundlanders for many years to come. It is a terribly, terribly important matter. The difference now, of course, and before is that before the power was owned or controlled by BRINCO and its subsidiary Churchill Falls Power Corporation. MR. PECKFORD: Yes. MR.

S~W..LWOOD: Now it is owned by the Government of the Province because it has been nationalized, and now it is the Government of the Province that will have to sell. Any selling will be done by the Province because the Province?as the owner,will have to make any sales contracts

whereas before it was done by BRINCO or by BRINCO'S subsidiary Churchill Falls Power Corporation. Now, the question is this: If we do not succeed - first we have to determine what is surplus. Let us hope and pray to God there is no surplus power, that all of it could he consumed within the Province. If that could happen then we would not call King r~orge our uncle. If ~~e could use all the power in the Province that we can produce in the Province there would be no Province of r~nada that could hold a candle to us. But with regard to the surplu~ power, 551.

February 10, 1977, Tape 194, Page 2 -- apb MR. SMALLt"OOD: selling poloier that is surplus, where is the advantage to Newfoundland of the selling agents now being the government because the government now owns the power and it is its own power surplus that it would be selling? If they had not nationalized,and they did not now own the power,and it was owned by Churchill Falls Power Corporation,·where are we now better off? We are so far about a quarter of a billion, $250 million out at the moment but we have the power.

Nmo~ where is the advantage compared with not having gone in debt for a quarter of a billion and letting Churchill Falls Power Corporation find the sales? Because we are talking about selling to Quebec or the Maritime Province or Ontario or New England) What is the difference selling to them and selling to Quebec? MR. PECKFORD: The difference is simple, Mr. Speaker. The difference is that the government now has it in its pmver to decide upon the long-term future of the Province in relation to its own fiscal position and so on and hrn., much it can afford to do.

If you are doing it by an independent agent who is going to work a deal as was done on the Upper Churchill or something a bit better than that but in comparative terms the same thing, the Province would continue to be paying out large sums of money to some other province~or whatever,who can then sell it, make all the money that is happening on the Upper Churchill. Talking about being out $250 million, how much are we out, if any reasonable man sat down and looked at the Upper Churchill contract for the last five or ten vears; ~ot when it was signed since then.

The problem with the Upper Churchill contract is not what it was signed for it is that there were no provisions put in there for reopeners in a more short neriod of time. I do not argue with the price at the time I argue with the rest of the agreement and the long terms that were put in there. That is ~vhat I argue ~dth. r: :- ') ,} .l ...

FebTUary 10, 1977, Tape 194, Page 3 - apb MR. PECKFORD: So that is the answer to it as I see it. You are out $250 million - MR. SMALLWOOD: Could $1 billion have been borrowed to build the Churchill Falls? Could they have borrowed $1 billion, $1,000 million without a long-term contract at a fixed price? MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, that opens up the Whole argument or debate as it relates to the wisdom or lack thereof of the kind of an agreement that was signed to get the Upper Churchill project going. And r: r: '} .l .l . \

February 10, 1977 Tape 195 IB-1 HR. PEr.KFOPD: appreciate what the hon. the member for TwUlingate (Mr. Smalltvood) says. All I am saying in reply to that -and we can argue this until the cows come home, and like I said to him I do not argue with the price at the time that m1s signed for. I argue with the kind of agreements after that. I do not mind if I personally have to go out and sign a contract for someone to do some work (ln my la~m, I do not mind if to get the thing going I have to charge a little less in the short-term.

Rut Hhen you build yourself into something for sixty-five years and the second part of the agreement for the last twenty-five or tl•7enty years actually reduces, that is where I quarrel with it. Now it is more cUfficuJ t - nobody denies the fact that it is more difficult for a government to use its o¥m credit to try to ~o out and borrow the sufficient amounts of money needed to make a big project fly. I agree that is one of the disadvantages.

But all I would say to that is that I -.:·muld rather as a NeHfoundlander knm,;ing that that is my resource, I would rather go this route for the long-term benefit of the people of this Province, I would rather risk a quarter of a bi.llion dollars and still not have no project going than sign a project that ha~ lo¥7, low, low mil power where ,,..e could be accused and rightly accused of losing $400 million or $500 million a year to another province nearby who then has the audacity to say they want to separate. That is lvhere I stand on it. I would rather take that chance.

And we are the ones ,,-.ho will have to answer for it. I cannot blame BRINCO I cannot blame rFLCo or I cannot blame Rio '!'into or I cannot blame some other lar~e corporate entity. T take it on the chin. And if l\re have to spend $250 million like we did, fine. We still have it in our ~rasp. ~hat money is not lost forever. l-Ye cannot put back the clock on the Fpper r.hurch:n 1 contract and get back some of that money that we are,not only ostensibly losing if we even p.o hack • :!v£' venrs, ~·;hich He are Josjnr.. ·we c~nnot do that. But the $250 milljon is not Jost. It is not lost.

February 10, 1977 Tape 195 IB-2 MR. SHALLWOOD: If you are around in the year 2000. MR. PECKFOnn: Hell, you knm.T, that is your projection. That is your in~ication. That is where you want to stand on it. I am not that pessimistic. If I thought for a moment that it ~·Ias going to be until the year 2000 before Labrador power, Gull Island was going to be developed and we would not see realization of some return on that $250 mil lion, I would not be around here today, J-fr. Speaker. That is the difference. That is the simple difference. 1-'R.

S1·f.ALLHCOD: You have to reme'[llher that five years from nm·J, _\ ~ ten years from ~ow, fifteen years from now, it will not be $250 million, ~ it will soon be up to $300 million, $350 million, $400 million. ~. PECKFOP.D: Exactly, exactly. That is the chance you take. That is the chance that this administration has taken, and we continue to take and we think we can justHy the'DI. In the short-term right now you are out $250 million but you are not out in the normal sense that the book is closed, the door is closed, all is over, project is dead, there is no way to get it going. That is not the case.

There are very, very interesting, -exciting prospects for that development wi.thin the next couple of years, very exciting ones. But I am not, as one member of government, going to he party to it if the long-term benefits for it - not just to get going because I want to get re-elected or this party wants to get re-elected - .they better be for the long-term benefits of this Province rr I will be a teacher back in Green Bay pretty fast, !''r. Speakex. And I think ~1e t·d.ll bring that off. I think that ~dll come. I think it is inevitable. That it has to come. lve have so'l"''e control nm.;r over our destiny.

And it has cost us. You can size it off, "Oh, your emotion of havinp; some control over your dest1nv is 't.;rorth $250 r.dllion, is it, the ~on. 'Diember for Green Bay?" Py answer is very simple, "Yes, Sir · At this point in time, yes Sir." Anrl I still think we c~n '[11~1--e thnt project fly and somel-Yhere rlm·m the ro;~(l I CIT"' hopPful 'to'hen T .1.11' ~ittinp, dm·m in l'IY ror.Jr:fnr, cha 1 r srnol·:fnr, TT"V p:ipf' that soT"'e student can come up to me ;mel sny, "You 1<-no"to• t "-":ls jn!':t rcnclinp; the hook

February 10, 1977 Tape no. 196 Page 1 - mw Mr. Peckford. about that project, you know. That was not a bad deal. That was a fair deal. It is not a matter of just strict economics and getting a project to fly.'' As I have indicated there is no trouble to create all kinds of jobs or other things, but it is the price. It all comes down to the price. And that is where we disagree as , par~ies, I guess, or at least as individuals, .• . .. · . ... · ... with some individuals. That is where we disagree. It is more on a point of economic principle. MR.

SMALLWOOD: The minister in my book, and if he does not mind my saying it, I am not flattering him or giving him any taffy, ~but he is minister, young and an energetic and vigorous minded, young and he deserves a lot of credit.

But would he not face up man-fashioned to this, that there really is nothing that can now be done to serve Newfoundland and her people and her future in connection with Labrador power, nothing really that can be done now, now that the government are the owners of it, that could not have been done and would not have been done had they not become the owners and paid a quarter of a billion dollars to do it? MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, with all due respect to the hon. member for Twillingate. I understand his point very well. I have read all his books.

I have read all I can read on Churchill Falls, and all the rest of them, and all the big developments, and I do not understand the motive of his question, but it seems to me his question, the way it is phrased, he is trying to justify his point of view. Now that is fine and dandy. He can have his opportunity to do so and he has. The answer to his question is obvious. That is not really the question. The question is not whether if we did not do it tnere wou~o oe JUSC a chance of it going ahead if it remained where it ...,-as under the auspices or the ownership where it was. That is not the question.

The question is not that. The question is: Can we be sure? Can we be more sure now that we will get more benefit in the lonr,-term for the people of this Province by r:r:c ,) ,l 0

February 10, 1977 Tape no. 196 Page 2 - mw Mr. Peckford. us having major control over the development than if we did not have major control over that development? The answer to that question is pretty obvious, too. And in my opinion the answer :is obvious that we do have a better chance. HR. SMALLWOOD: The Sovereign Legislature, the Sovereign lawmakins body of this Province will always have and cannot ever fail to ~ have absolute control no matter who owns it. ~o become the owners. We did not need . MR. PECKFORD: Oh, no! That is fine! That is fine! That is a beautiful reason. We all know that.

That is a theoretical \ for it. Sure it is. Because how aan be start -·changing? The bon. member was one and many others. You cannot ~ge a contract. It is sacred. It is this. It is that or something else. We can start changing contracts or agreements every day. MR. ~l~WOOD: We did not change the contract. We are ih court right -now under the law that this -Hause .passed. MR. PECKFORD: Yes, I understand that. MR. S~~WOOD: That is our case, is it not? I piloted that through this House, and the present administration very rightly, very properly are suing under that very contract~ and that very law.

So we are the lawmaking body. We are supreme. ·m. PECKFORD: }fr. Speaker, if I may just interject here. I would prefer if the bon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) would let me pursue the rest of my speech. -MR. SMALLWOOD: I will be speaking anyway • . HR. PECKFORD: And I hope he will accord me the same opportunity to interject when he speaks as I have accorded him since I have been speaking. It is an argument that can go on endlessly to which there is no resolution when you have people moving from different premises to start with. What I was t:-ying to say, Hr.

Speaker, earlier on was that the government of this Province right now, as it relates to policy and programme in reply to the LeaJ.er of the Opposition, 557

February 10~ 1977 Tape no. 196 :Page 3 - mw Mr. :Peckford. does have p'olicies in various areas of the resource sector of this economy, and I mentioned the minerals and the agriculture and the forestry and so on, and I was trying to indicate that the three' areas that we are trying to zero in on in 1977 as it relates to Labrador power is to determine precisely in the next few months whether in fact the Cabot Strait route, as a transmission vehicle,is not only '

February 10, 1977 Tape 197 PK- 1 Mr. Peckford: technologically feasible, but also within the parameters of being financially competitive ·to Nova Scotia or wherever.

Two, re-examite our position with Quebec to find out and ascertain whether the new administration of Quebec has a different attitude towards a corridor or purchase of Jower from Labrador, and three, to aggressively look for customers who might be interested in developing industry in Labrador to take the surplus power of the 1,600 total,of which 800 would be surplus) keeping always in mind that the court case on the Upper Churchill has not been settled and there is some good probability that we will have some additional power ~lso.

That rather torments or frustrates the whole idea because you have to develop two or three more alternatives if you get power from'the Upper Churchill then the Lower Churchill. If you do not get the power then how do you develop the Lower Churchill or Huskrat or the other five rivers? That is where we stand on Labrador power, and that to me is pretty clear. Hopefully within the next three or four months we can indicate to the hon. House what we have been able to ascertain. The Federal Government again, Mr. Gillespie is talking about Gull Island as if this is number one priority.

I do not know if that is supposed to be an indication. \ve will have to find ~ut whether the Federal Government look upon this as being somewhat more in the national interest nm..r than it was a few years ago, so that they are willing to participate financially in a more meaningful way than they have up to now. I do not know if that is ~ possibility. That could very well be too. So these things are ongoing, and we have to check them out and do all the detail work that is necessary to be done to ensure that we will get a good deal and all th~ :est of it. One other point, Mr.

Speaker, and that has to do with offshore resources. \Je have off the shores or Labrador ;1 sizeable number of geological structures on the seabed that are conducive r: r· ,) 'l !1

February 10, 1977 Tape 197 PK - 2 Mr. Peckford: hydrocarbon, oil and gas. A consortium called Eastcan made up of AGIP of Italy, Total of France, Aquitaine of France, SUNOCO of the United States, Gulf Oil of Canada, and one other have formed a consortium called Eastcan to do the exploration, and hopefully production off the Coast of Labrador. They have spent $100 · million or so off there. We have BP State Oil Company from Britain really which has a BP of Canada, but it is controlled by the main company in England, who went into an agreement with Petro-can last year for drilling activity.

Amoco had done a· fair amount of drilling off the Grand Banks a number of year~ ago. So we are at the stage now-and then after that, we are trying to determine a joint reference to the Supreme Court for the overall jurisdiction of the Continental Margin under which lies the hydrocarbon. Now the Newfoundland Government has in the last several months indicated to the people cf Newfoundland the oil companies that they intend to bring in Oil and Gas Regulations regulating the whole activity, the offshore activity as related to offshore oil and gas.

Subsequent to that we went ahead and developed our regulations in consultation l-rith the people around the world who were knowledgeable in the business. And recently we have sent draft copies of the regulations to the various oil companies asking them to reply, as to their concern relating to the regulations. And here, Mr. Speaker, it is somewhat like Gull Island, Labrador power and so on, and other major developments in the Province.

We are in a little bit of an unfortunate position as it relates to the regulations because \.:e do not know, and I would suggest perhaps the companies do not know exactly how much resource is there. You can get all kinds of predictions, you can get all kinds of e~tfmates on proven reserves, possible reserves and probable reserves, but one notes ·..;ith interest thilt in the last year or two Jrn.rPr inJ Oil, :,:,f'll, Gulf ,1nu a lot of nther companies, even Pan Arctic h<wc revised thelr reservP projf'ctlonR on oil and fJlS in Canada. Up 5ii 0

February 10, 1977 Tape 197 PK - 3 Mr. Beckf ord: until now, for example, in the MacKenzie Delta, the Beaufort Sea area they were- I think, Imperial was estimating four trillion cubic feet. Recently I saw a report from them indicating that they had it now up to six trillion cubic feet, other companies have it up to seven, others to nine, and so on.

So it is very diffi'cult to, when you only have four or five holes drilled and all of them not on the same structure,to determine the kind of volumes cf hydrocarbons that are present, because that would go a long way t:c determining the kind of regulations that you can develop. But our regulations are extremly comprehensive. They have taken into account,the federal negotiations have been ongoing for about ten years for frontier regulations. And the long and short of it is, ·Mr.

Sp~aker, if one puts aside the jurisdictional dispute which is ongoing anyway, the long and short of it is right now that we are in the ~ t) 1

Feb~unry 10,1977 Tape 198 AH-1 MR. PECKFORD: midst of very, what I would consider very significant •tegotiations with the companies, that we hope within a month or so to be able to publish our regulations so that the public organizations around the province can have a chance to read them over. But they cnnnot he done in isolation, so lt is our intention to highlight the re~ulations hecause they are com~lex, complicated anrl an ordinary individual ,.rould not be able to comprehend the whole business so ~.re hope to prepare a ~vhite paper to attach to it.

In the meantime He are going ahead Hith negotiations with the companies. There has been indications from Otta,va, sometimes from some of the companies that they are threatening to pull out and all the rest of it. The position of the· government is a position) I guess, that is knm-m pretty Hell around the province right nmv, that ~"e want to insure that the regulations give the maximum benefit to this province~not only in terms of rayalties hut also in terms of jobs, also in terms of the spin-of industries and where they are going to be located.

The agreement signed recently ' by.the Maritime Provinces and the federal government to me is a complete and absolute sell-out by the Haritimes to the federal government. Now they did not have much choice because they did not have the kind of legal points to pursue that ,.;e have. r.ut even after saying that one has to question that 1dnd of an agreement, because first of all, one could ask right off the top of your head, seventy-five percent of lvhat? Seventy-· five percent of ~·7hat ,.d_ll be t'!le Maritimes share? That is a good question. l•!here does Petro-Can enter into all this? . .

There is a lot of indications cominp, from Otta·Ha that the Petro-Can is going to be ahle to buy its way into almost anv future commerciDl discovery in Canada. l~erc does retro-Can come in and how much will they take out of it, which is really the federal government) and so t"!erefnrc l1nu rn1c.h .1rc ~·.'P 1 eft Hi thl Pow d0~s it aff~ct equaliz~tion pavmcnts <1s it: rr·l ;'ltcs to the three nrcwinces?

February 10,1977 Tape 198 AH-2 ~1R. PECKFORD: These are very important questions on the fiscal side which have not been ans~·1ered since that agreement has been signed and I vTOuld like to see the fine print. But outside of that, outside of ~·!hat it is 75 per cent of, whether equalization is affected, \vhether Petro-Can can get involved.

Outside of that one has to criticize it on the grounds that the Federal Government has total iurisdicti.on over saying ~·1hat kinds of exploration permits are going to be issued~ the conditions of these / permits, the conditions and safety regulations as it relates to the production and the length of the production leases. That is very important, that is totally in the hands of the Federal r.overnment.

Secondly, the Federal Government has total jurisdiction over where any spin-off industries are roing to go. and that v!ill be a J good fight between the provinces 1 but they have total jurisdictionover over deciding where they are going.

The provinces have no pm,,er whatsoever to decide on that. hnere the major administrative offices are going to go as it relates to the development from Petro-Can's point of view or from the federal p.overnments • So the Maritimes, in my opinion)have not- until I see the fine ?rint and 'tV'hether like equalization is involved , Petro-Can' s involvement finding out what it is 75 per cent off- that is a poor sentence- wouldhave to criticize on principal th~t kind of an agreement. This government is adamant that ~.;re do not ~·Tant to talk about that kind of an agreement.

He were involved in that process Hith the federal government and the Haritimes for a number of years and there was no give, no give on getting us involved or giving us some decision, makinp. power over the thin~s that affect the rrovince. If there are major discoveries , if there is for example, a field of three or four, say four or five trillion cubic feet, Hhich \voulcl he a fairly medium size gas discovery, a coMmercial find: and if oil was found ton. and vou ha <l t0 have concrete r1 at forms, for cx.:1mpJ e, / you l:nmv, anrl that .is a r:taior. m<Iior inrlustrv 1 for examolc in Non·Jav now>

February 10, 1977 Tape No. 199 NM "':' 1 MR.. PECKFORD: fantastic the number of jobs that it can create. v1here v10uld that kind of industry be located? You know we would have no control over 'N'ould it he located in Newfoundland, getting as many snin-off industries or business activity around 1\!ewfoundland. You knm-; we are very, very concerned that if we ever as a ~overnment did not have some input to that kind of a decision that Halifax would become very quickly the capital of Atlantica. And you knmv it is fair and reasonable. It is fair and reasonable. Now, Mr.

Speaker, that is where I find some friends when I start talking about those kinds of decisions, vis-~-vis federal government and provincial government and relating that to the crisis in 0uebec and not only the crisis in Quebec but the crisis in Canada because the nroblem in Confederation, if I can lead through the oil and Ras into t~at , is not Quebec.

The crisis in Confederation lies in Ottawa, I am not talking about pa~ties or governments, it lies in Otta~-1a and Otta~va' s refusal) and it could be more the bureaucrats than the noliticians;to recognize that a constitution that was devised and nut in motion in 1867 cannot possibly, no matter hmv smart they ~,rere in 1867, no matter hmv brilliant, no matter hov! prophetic, can ever ,,,..:-ite a document that can still realistically address itself to the problems of 1977. It cannot be done unless you want to talk about deities or something. It cannot be done. And ~r.

Reisman, Simon Reisman, who is a former Denuty Minister of Finance,in a recent

article that was published in t.be Globe and Mail, which I have here somewhere 1 I have not got it here nm.;r I do not think, recognized that fact and he nleaded ~.;rith the federal r.overnment to change their whole attitutde towards Confederation. 0uebec has a point, not to the point of saying we want to senarate hut thev have a TlOint thenreti c<>.11v in talking about it in <1c:1demtc terms .lnt' t.-~1!:inp: .""1h0ut t!w clistri_hu: · .,:1

February 10, 1977 Tape No. 199 NM- 2 MR. PF.CKFORD: of povrers in this Province. John Turner recognizes that, former Minist~r of Finance in the Liberal Administration in Otta•.-1a, and a lot of other people have recognized it around the country. You are going to have the same problems in Alberta and British Columbia and they are never going to change until you change the ~.;rhole ~.;ray Confed.eration is set un and we might as well not put our heads in the sand about it.

And as much as we. like our traditions and our history there has to be some change in the whole concent of federalism as it relates to this country called Canada, and it has to be done quickly, or there is always going to be that kind of thing.

Trade and commerce and export, monetary rolicy, external affairs have to r~~ain primarily in the domain of Ottawa~ but there are a lot of areas over ~.;rhich the feceral government has jurisdiction that more often than not causes friction and does not make for a very harmonious country. .And ~.;re can look at our historv books and admire ~facDonald and Cartier and all the rest of them all vre like, and they were brilliant neonle and they did do a fantastic joh. The fact speaks for itself that we have lasted as a country this long without any serious major conflict.

But the problem lies in the whole concent of Confederation, and there cannot be special status for one. So if there cannot be snecial status for one and you still have a lot of friction in Alberta and even in Newfourdlnnd and other nlaces)then is it not better to look at the ~-rhole concePt of Confederation as it was originally envisa~ed and nut into practice throu~h the BNA Act and start looking to chan?,e that so that everybody still is on an eoual footinp,. and vou are ~ivinr. more iurisdiction to the various un:its( l-!e can be proud of our nast, very proud of our past.

But •,rr:: c:m~ot 1~t th:lt ~] incl us into t~le future to '::,11:" sure r: J' .r:: ,,,, ·'

February 10, 1977 Tape no. 200 Page 1 - mw Mr. Peckford. that there is still on the Northern part of the North American Continent another country. There must be more decentralization in Confederation if it is going to work. So that the problem, as I see it - although there are special or different problems in Quebec, thereare different problems everywhere else in Canada. We always say proudly,and boast and stick out our chest, that we are different, and we are proud of the fact that we are different, and we got our own little culture here. And when you go out West you hear the same thing.

And if you go out to Saskatchewan and Alberta you hear exactly the same thing all over again, only from their point of view, from their history, their geography, their culture. They do not want to be thrown into the melting pot either. And so you have to look very seriously. Mr. Trudeau, if he were wise in my opinion, would look very seriously at looking at the whole business of division of powers in this country, and that is where the ansv1er to Quebec lies, and not only in Quebec that is where the answer to Canada lies~ the answer for British Columbia and Alberta and every other province.

And it is only through that group can we hope to have a permanent, peaceful country in the next fif~y years, as I see it. The problem is not necessarily Quebec.

And it comes back to the offshore oil and gas, because not only do we think we have a legal case from a sensible, reasonable, sane point of view - I cannot understand it - from a sensible point of view when you look at this Province, and you say, '•He are a have-not Province, and you got to have these hundreds of millions from Ottawa, and you have a resource off your shores" - forget the legalities - and you have a resource off your shores that looks like it has great potential for revenue.

Okay, what is wrong with the Province generating a fair amount of revenue, not all the revenue necessarily, but a fair amount of revenue? It is going to save the federal government n0ncy because then they c.lo not h.:lVe to give to us in equ;1liz.:1tion. So ·~·liy the circuit. ~.Jhy have to have .:1ll the revenue go to OtLnva, \\iticll ti!~'n is going to be diverted down here .:myv::1y in equali::ation payments ami DR.!::

February 10, 1977 Tape no. 200 Page 2 - mw Hr. Peckford. agreements and ~hatever else and God kno~s ~hat else to keep us alive( Why not give us the jurisdiction? Why not give us an agreement ~hereby they permit us, if you will, to have the revenue in the first place so that then ~e can feel and be real contributors to our o~ Province and to the nation? That is ~hat I do not understand. It seems so nonsensical, so foolish, not only in our o~ particular case, but in anybody's case across the country. It does not make sense, not in 1977.

It is foolish, it is obsolete, it is out of date, it is crazy, and that is the way out of our dilemma, not only for Newfoundland that is trying to pull itself up by its boot straps, but for Canada. And they can talk about putting pipelines from Winnipeg, or Southern Ontario up to Quebec~and :~ntreal to feed gas and oil into Quebec, but they are not willing to talk about transmission of power. What is the difference between a .·,pipeline, an oi_l pi~·eline or "gas pipeline or whatever and a transmission line for electricity? There is no difference.

It just so happens that we do not have the people and the votes do~ here. That is what it boils do~ to, and that is a sad commentary on the country. That is a sad commentary when you got to say that kind of thing. So the whole idea has to be changed as far as I am concerned. So, Mr. Speaker, this is where this administration stands on most of the major policy areas in the Province. We have not, Mr. Speaker, as a government, as a party in government done everything that we should have done, everything that we could do. Nobody does.

But I think it is a fair comment to say that ~e have tried to change the priorities of the Province, that we are trying to change them now, that we ~ill continue to do that, to indicate to the people of this Province th~t we are eag2~ ~nd willing to get on with the job of trying to nake this Pro\· inc0 J h.:rvc Province, to be sane and reas cmable, to nut gc t gypped, . but yc t to be fair, that we have succeeded in a very short period of time in rt!ducing welfare rolls, of holding unemployment and maybe even reducing it on a percentage basi:>, and 5l17

February 10, 1977 Tape no. 200 Page 3 - mw Mr. Peckford. that we have a big, large monumental job yet to do, that we are going to continue, unless we get major construction projects like Gull Island and offshore resources and so on off the ground in the next five years to be in a fiscal bind, that it is going to be difficult for us to borrow, and when we do borrow we are only going to have a small pot out · of which we are going to have to snatch different programmes, and they are going to have to be related to the resource industry. We think, Mr.

Speaker, that we ~e doing what we were elected to do, and we will over the next year, two years, or whenever another election comes, try to continue the kind of philosophy that we started in 1972 of ·putting more emphasis on rural Newfoundland, of trying to ensure that if a major project starts, it will be for the benefit of us first and everybody else second. And it is on that basis that we want to continue to govern this Province· and to try to make it a better place for everybody after we have left it. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Thank you.

February 8, 1977 Tape No. 201 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, first of all, Sir, I wish to welcome back to this hon. House the member for Bonavista North (Hr. Cross). SOME RON. ~ffiERS : Hear! Hear! MR. NEARY: And I want to congratulate the member for being ~elected to move the Address-in-Reply on opening day. I also, ~ir, am most pleased indeed to see my hon. friend, the member for Exploits (Dr. Twomey) in his second attempt at trying to get a seat in this han. Rouse.

Seeing that the hon. member was successful then I wish him the best of luck in his deliberations on behalf of his constituents in the new district of Exploits. I think the han. gentleman, Sir, will make a very wortbv contribution to this han. House. SOME RON. MEHBERS : Hear! Hear! ~. NEft..RY: Mr. Sneaker, since the House last met, since we sat in this hon. House, say back in the early part of the S~er;a number of things have hap~ened. ~Y old sparring partner, the member for St. John's West has gone to greener pastures, gone off to Ottawa, probably with his eye on the leadership of the Tory Party.

He could not quite make it in Newfoundland. After spending, so the member told us, S600, 000 on trying to l-lin the leadership of the Liberal Party and then moving across the Rouse with his eye on the provincial leadershiP of the Tory Party, the member finally gave up, moved up to Ottal'a where no doubt noYr Joe Clarke is shivering in his shoes.

But, Sir, I must say just talking about the hon. menber, and I miss the han. member in this House, Sir. and I must say so far this session has been dull. dead, if it keens going the Pay it is ~oin~, Sir, we are ~oinp, to have to call in the undertaker to put her at rest, dead. I do not knm.:r if it is the mid-l·~inter slurnT"' ~.·e .:lr£'' in, t;ir, the ~:id-FintP.r '">lues. hut the session sc ~:::.-::

February 8, 1977 Tape No. 201 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: is like a continuation of the old session that started last year. Nothing nev!, same old dribble. nothing to benefit the peonle of this Province. But, Sir, I was rather amused by a statement made by the former member of St. John's Hest, now t~e gentle!"l<m who represents the federal riding of St. John's ~est, remarks t~e hon. gentleman made in connection with the application by Mr. Colin Jamieson for a radio station, another private radio station in St. John's. Mr.

Crosbie came out publicly as being opposed to the application on the grounds that it t..rould give the Jamiesons too much power, that Mr. Jamieson was too close to ~1r. Jeff Sterling, a friend of my bon. colleague, the member for Twillingate (}~r. Smallwood) , because anot~er brother ha?pened to work in the radio station. They were going to have a sort of a monopoly on radio stations in Netdoundland. ~fr. Speaker, that memher of Parliament, ~ir, must have a face like a robber's horse. You talk about brazen, Sir. I have heard the member make some pretty brazen statements.

Does hon. members realize that that attitude, that statement, those remarks come fror.1 a gentleman l\7ho is described in Peter ~7e1man' s book, The Canadian Fstablishment as being a fanilv

. \ February 10, 1977 Tape 202 IB-1 'MR. NEAPY: in Newfoundlan~ that are rated to be in the top five of the Newfoundland establishment, the Crosbies of Newfoundland. So Peter Ne~nnan says and he has no axe to grind. It is doubtful if any other business family in r~ewfoundland or on the mainland maintain such a tortuous relationship with incumbent a~d potentially incumbent politicians as the Crosbies.

Wrote Harry Bruce, "A fi~ht to excel in business in Newfoundland more than an~~bere else, dramatic husiness success depends on government money, Therefore rrosbies 11 - just listen to this, the man who is criticizing poor little Colin Jamieson for trying to get his license after I presume fallinp out ~v:i.th the gentleman ~·mo o\oms the other station -'therefore Crosbies fight on two political fronts of the Province, both secretly and openly.

To complete the pattern they ~2rry into faMilies vmo have also fought to excel in business or to influence whatever political movements suit their particular ambitions." Order, please! As the hon. gentleman kno"tors I am. require(! to inform the House of what three matters wiJ 1 be debaten at fi,re-thirty this evening. I have received notice of five. Obviously onlv three can be Clebatecl. I have ... bearing in mine the various matters to ~·Thich the Speaker directs his attention, he;;tring that ;_n TI5.nd as well I have taken the f:f.rst three Hhich "torere given to me.

That ~.rill mean that) in fact, the third one submitted by the hon. member for Eagle 'Piver ("'~r. Strachan) will not be on because he is not here. So it will,in fact, he numbers one, tno and four in the order in which they \•7ere subroitted. The first matter - and they will be debated in the orcler in which they 'vere suhmitted as \>.'ell - the first person tn be calle~ on ~-.'ill be the hon. member for LaPoile (}'r. Neary) arising out of a ouestion to the hon. ~'inister of r'ines and F.ner~y on the tnpic of ~!':be1=;tosis at Baie Verte. The second r.a.t ter.

I lvi] 1 call upon the hnn. me..,l-.er for Find ~or- Buchans (Mr. To'lirht). Tre ~nhject rontter, the 'i1'1p1ement~tiCin of recoJI111'enncttions of the nuC'l,;~nf; 'T"<1sl:. Force :J.r]sinr frol"! ct rmcstinn askecl by him to the hon. Premier. 571

February lC, 1977 Tape 202 IB-2 ?-T. • SPEAI<.E R : The third matter,-! will call upon the hon. member for Burgeo- Bay D 'Espoir (}~r. Sinnnons) on the subject matter of the weaknesses fn internal control over the spending of public monies as referred to in the Auditor General's report arising out of a question asked by him to the hon. Hinister of Public Horks and Services. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Yr. Speaker. In speaking in the Address in r.eply, Sir, rather than to the amendment at the present time, I would just like to carry on, V,r.

Speaker, with this quotation from Peter Newman's, The Canadian Esti:!.bl:f shrnent, in connection t-:ith the Crosbies. "Andrelv Crosbie, the family's current godfather is ~vell alvare of these connections. 'Government, he says, is probably responsible for seventy-five per cent of construction in Ne-..vfoundland. ' " .AN RON. ME"t--IBER: How much? 1--fR.. NEARY : Seventy-five per cent. :'If you are not popular Y:ith government there have been ways by which maybe you did not get the business. 11 lvell,~!r. Speaker, truer words l·7ere never spoken, Sir. Truer words were never spoken. ~.

S"M.J\LLHOOD: If there are ways by which you cannot get it are there ways by ~vhich you can get it? r.-rn. NEARY: There are ways in which you can get. And the hon. gentleman who is asking me the quest ion should kno~.:r because the very next paragraph states, "According to one estim:~.te the Smalhmod government pumped at least $50 m1Jlion 1nto rrosbie ronstructjon Co!'lpanie!'l betl·7een 1950 and 1972." !-fP.. S~'ALUlOOT\: .t\nd add $25 million to that. ~fl'.

Nf.APY: J.nd the hon. ll'ember says, "You c::~.n a0~ another $25 million on to that." This is an offspring of th:tt crom~, the people who are the establishment in ~ewfoundland, nc>-..,T r. 7 . .., .l ·~

February 10, 1977 Tape No. 203 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: up in Ottat-1a from Hell i.nr,ton Street condemning Colin Jamieson. I have no brief for the Jamiesons, or the Sterlinps. I could not care less about their annlications. And here is this gentleman up there T'IUmnins; out this nrono?:ancl.1.. Now he is trying to con the Canadian neoT'Ile. 'tr. Sneal,er, I hope nobody is going to fall for that sort of con ioh. The hon. gentleman got away with it in Newfoundland because we have a tendency in this Province to tip rur hats to people like the Crosbies. I will venture a het, Mr.

Speaker, that most hon. members of this House,if they were outside of the House,and somebody came along they would say, "Hi Steve," but if John Crosbie was there they l-lould say, "Good day,~~r. Crosbie," and tip their hat to him. MR. SMALUJOOD: Hr. Crosberry. MR. NEARY: "Good day, ~r. Crosberry," "Pi Steve," "Hi Tom,'' "Hi Walter," 11 Hi.Joey," "How's it going Ed?" AN RON. HEMBER: "Not too bad Frank." MR. NEARY: "How are you Alexander?" SONE RON. MmfBERS : Hear! Hear! MR. NEARY: "Hello,Frankie Baby." "How's it going Hank?" "How're you getting on Haig?" But "Good afternoon~~~r. Crosbie." MR. SMALU~OOD: Hr.

Crosbery. lfR. NEA..."R..Y : I am afraid, Sir, that a lot of us have not gotten away from that. Yet we have a tendency still, a good many of us, to judge success, judge peonle by the amount of monev that they have and this is the gentleman who is ur' in llttnwa nm·: criticizing this application before the CR.TC. And I do not care who r,ets the radio stati.qn, hut Sir, T never sm·J sue~ <m examnle of hypocrisy in my life. And this very s;lmf' r,entlcnan, Hhf'n.

February 10, 1977 Tape No. 203 NM- 2 ~ffi. NEARY: I heard the hon. r.entleman in this House - ~R. ROBERTS: You heard him often. "ffi.. NF.ARY: - and I am not p,oing to waste too much time on him because I r,ot too many. more important things to talk about, talking about reforming politics in Newfoundland. And I have heard a number of other p;entlemen -pay lin service to reforming oolitics in this Province, and that is all it is, lip service. They have no intention of doing anything about it. They still go on in the same tired old corrupt ways of doing things, electinp,