• PROVINC E OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 32 4th . s~sion 34th . General A~embl y VERBATIM REPORT MONDAV.APR1l13, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

1:ape 41!1 PK - 1 The House !'!et at 3:00 P.N. ~- Speaker in the Chair. BON. J. R. Sl·!:ALWOOD (P?.E:UER) : Hr. Speaker I vish to extend a very cordially welcome to so~e eighteen girls who a~e here in the galleries today from the Girls l!or.1e .and Training School, Waterford Brid~e: Road under the direction ,. of Miss Kenny, the Superintendent , and 1lrll. Hindsor the Supervisor. An~ to thirteen young United S::ates citizens from the school at the Argentia Airforce Base under the direction of one of the most brilliant of the younger generation of Newfoundlander's we have got in our Province today Xr. Rex Hurphy.

Recently a distinguished student at the University. A P~ode Scholar, indeed I said a distinguished scholar at the University. And nov putting so~e of his theoretically.background and training to the practical test, that I hope that these yo~ng a~ericans citizens vho vill provide that it is a good test. These two gro~ps are visitin& our Cha~ber today to see ~hat we look like, and to see ~hat we sound like. And to get some idea at any rate bow the laws are made for this Canadian Province of !;elo.'foundland and Labrador.

The difference between this House and the House with ~hich they would be more familiar, the House of Repreentatives, and the Senate of the United States 1e th!s, th~t !n this House you have no~ o~ly the e!c~tcd ~epres~ntativcs of the people, the equivlent of Congresswcn an::! Senators, not o~ly have you got here on both side of this House, the elected representatives of the peo?le, but the Government as well. In the l:nited States the Govern.'!lent do not sit in the Congress, the House of Representatives, or the Senate. Vnder the Britis~ system they do. Indeed, you cannot see the.

Government, if you do not have seats in this House. TI1e Governrr.ent in this House, is ·made up of members of the House like all other members. And so long as a majority of the rr.embers of this House, taking the ~hole House, regardless of the side they sit o~, so long as the Government have the contin~in~ support of a majority of the ~embers of the House, they contin~e in office. If they make a motion that the House do now adjourn, and the House rejects that motion, the Cove~ent have no choice, but to resign.

I as the Leader of the Govcrr.~en~ vould go do~~ to Gove=nrr.~nt House and I vould call on the representative of the Sonarch and I would say, Your Honour. I have to announce with great re~ret that my aclninistration of Your Govern~ent, and it is the Governor's·or the Queen's Government, it is not mind I am only head of the adrr.inistration of the Qu.cen' s Goverr.r.1ent. A."ld the Queen 1849

HR_:__l>M.ALUJOOD: in ~~e...-foundland is represented by the Governor, he is the personal representative of the Queen. I ~:.•ould s;1y, Your Honour with great regret I have to announce that wY adrninistr~tion of Your Honour's Goverr.rr.cnt or the Queen's Government has been ·defeated in the House. And so I must tender you my resignation.

And when I do so, this means the automatic resignation of the whole .· of the Governoent, not just mind, but thli! resir,nation of the Government, so that at every point in the procedure of this Eouse the Government are at the ~ercy, completely and absolutely at the mercy of the majority of the elected members. They can defeat the Govent~ent at any tir..a, they feel like it. On 'any motion that comes before the House, if it is moved by the Covem:ncnt, as the Government motion, it must be carried or the Governrr.cnt must resign. So al~ays, therefore, the Government's life ~s at stake in this House.

The moment the House says, "no" to the Go·.rernment, the Governnent has no choice, but to resi!!n and that is done by the "Pre~ier going to the Queen in England, or the Queen's representative ht.re, and saying Your Majesty in England, or Your Honour here, I must tender you ~y resi~nation as Premier, and the resignation of my adininistration of Your Govern:r.ent. This is the great difference, bet~een this House and the House of Representatives or the Senate of the United States .

There is another great difference, and this is one that worries the Opposition greatly and my hen. friend the Leader of the Opposition who will speak; when I finish. At least if he does not, I will be zurprized. He always does, he always agrees ·, with me. I vill be greatly surprised, if he does not. The other great difference is this, that the Govern;;:ent of the Gnited States is elected on a certain date, for a certain term, and that term is no longer and no shorter than the date.

It is a sixth term, the President is elected, and he brings his Ca!Jinet in , and that Govern:cent are there for a sixth terr~ no matter what h.:rpens. No matter how often they l!'ight be defeated in the Senate or in the l!ouse of Representatives, the Government remains throughout the entire period of their term. Not so in the B.ritish system. The moment the Government are defeated, they ~ust resign. Defeated in this House here. On any motion, if it is a Government motion.

No\~ there is this difference also, that having been defeated, I can go to the Governor and say, Your Honour wi.th great regr~t I have to tell Your Honour, that my adl'linistrationras been defeated, and so I must tender you my resignation, but before doin~ so, Your Honour, I must first advice you to dissolve the House. Dissolve it. Issue Your rrocl~rnation, an<!. dissolve the C.eneral AsseF<bly. And issue Your Proclamation for the hol:!in~

of a general election. So having been defeated in the House, I can go to the Govern~r and ask hio to call a general election, and the ~ouse nay be only a year old, or two or three years old. At the end of five years it has got to~dissolved whether or not who likes it. But within the five years, at any time the Premier advises the Governor to dissolve the H'Ouse, the Governor has no choice. It is not always like that·, but it is like that no~:.

So these young americans will see what a basic and fund=ental difference there is between the t1•o types of r,overnnent, Areerican and British. ~e are more sensitively responsive to the people representives a~ any time they can vote us out. ~~y tine they like, you cannot vote out an Am~rican Government, you can i:peach a President, but that is only for co•~itrn~nt of some very serious violation of the constitution of the nation of the republic. But otherwise, once the President is elected and he brin~s his Cabinet in, then they are there for a duration, until the ·rternl is up.

And another difference is that a Premier must get his Cabinet from among the members of the House. But a President of the United States can get his Cabinet from any part of the nation, but of course the Confress~en mip.ht, the Senate mu~t approve. I hope all these young ladies and re~tlemen, N~wfoundlanders and .Americans tec:porary Newfoundlar..ders, Newfoundlanders for the time being, I hope they vill all enjoy their stay here, and see how laws are oade. lf they vill stay along enough they will see it, so far we have not passed any in this present session.

But do not be discouraged. >Je have passed one law, and we are well unde~ay to passing several others. But, we have done other things, we have talked, and that is the meaning of the House of Assembly, it is a talk shop, }:hat is the meaning of Parl!a;:,ent? l:hat is the actual meaning of Parlia r::c:nt? It is to "Parle" it is to talk. Is it.not? Parle-vous francais, to speak French. But we are here parlinJ all the time. It is a Parlia~ent, we are here to talk. And we are here to talk about the business · of the Province.

The faith of our people and the destiny of our people and the condition of our people and what ou~ht to be done for the benefit of our people. ~e are a talk shop, we are a Parliament, a parle, a cn>~d who are here parling, and God knows we have done an awful lot of that in the present session. Of ccurse, I have not, I have only spoken a few words, but to the other ~embers you cannot quiten them,they go on and on endlessly ~ak ing 1St)1 • . .J

April 13th. 1970 Tape 415. PK- 4 speeches, now the Leader of the Opposition vill be given a glorious opportunity to e~press what is in my vay of welcome to these fine young people. 1852

HR. EA!U.E: Mr. Speaker, this session has been full of surprises c" '-''= ~"'!'"nr rl";>.,--lvo hiM nf nne 1r.ore surprise todav insofar as I a~ filling in for the Leader of the Opposition in ~elcoming the students from the Girls' Home and Training School and from the Air Force Base at Argentia.

In the case of the Girls' Home and Training School, during ,· the period that I was the ~!inister of 'lo.'elfare, I visited that institution as ~ell as all other institutions ~hich carne under ~e, on a number of occasio?s· Well the Pre~er has been quick to say that the students from these institutions should learn something here today.

I would hasten to assure the House that in my experience in visiting :hem, there is one thing which they will net learn here today and that is good ~anners, because I was never so surprised in my life on _visiting the Girls' Hone to find how ~·ell they conducted thenselves, how well the place was run and how admirably they displayed their talents and so on in the little concerts and entertainment~ which they gave in that particular institution. I think it is a great credit to Niss Kenny and •!rs.

Winsor, the supervisors "-ho from personal experience, I kn~, have done an excellent job with that particular institution. In welcoming the Argentia Air Force Base students, I should say that the lonz and det<1iled instruction "'hi.;:h rhey harl in parlial:'.entary procedure vas interestin~ to them no doubt but rather weariso~~ to us, because during this session of the House, 1o1e have rather a surfeit of parliarr .entary instruction, ·all of which incidentally was not needed but which was listened to attentively.

The indication was that the Government can be defeated at any ti~e in this House by a majority of wernbers. l~nile it ~~y raise hopes eternally in the breast, we are not eA~ccting that to happen and I am sure that the students here this afternoon are not expecting it to happen. 1./e will prefer, of course, to do it in a much ~ore normal manner and the parliatrR.ntary way; in insofar, as when we ~o to the electorztc that is bound to happen the next time around • .

If these stud~nts from the Air Base are here in a few months time, they ~11 ~robably be able to say that they ~ere the first students in Newfoundland from another country to witness the defeat of a sitting Government. I have much pleasure in welcomin8 these two groups and hope that they will enjcy their visit. 1853

Appl 13th., 1970 Tape no. 416 ?--­ Page "i HON. STEPHEN A. !iEARY (}!inister of Public Helfare): Nr. Speaker, I.w-ant to join with the hon. the Premer &Old the representative of the Opposition in velcoming these girls from the Girls' Home and Training School. My bon. friend w-ho jus~ took his seat I!Jentioned the =ny occasions that he .. visited the Girls' Training Home, but ;r 'Want to inform him, Hr. Speaker, that on no occasion did he invite the yolli<g ladies to co~e up to the RouAe. I think I have been at the Girls' Training Rome now on eleven different occasions over the past ten or elev~n months, ~!r.

Speaker, and on t~o of these rather enjoyable occasions, I v2.s priv:ler.eJ to attend a concert and school graduation that the han. mecller just referred to, under the supervision of the girls' teacher and Miss Kenny. It is to say the least, Hr. Speaker, very encouraging for me to know that these fine girl~ are taking full advanta?.e of the education and training pr~gra~s open to them; especially in such a practical as to come and see the la~o-.,akers at uork. Before I take my seat,. Hr. Speaker, I also would like to w-elcome the s~udents from the United States Naval Station at ·Argentia who are here with Hr.

Hurphy. This is not: the first time that L~ese students sat in this House of Assembly, Mr. Spe~ker. As a matter of fact, the fast time they visited here, they sat ri8ht here on the floor of the House and cross-exa~~ned, yours truly, for two hours. I must say that I am glad to see them back azain, but this time sitting in the galleries. HR. JGHN CROSBIE: Yr. Speaker, I would like to say a few words of welco~ to these two groups on behalf of the Independent Liberal group. Mr.

SpTaker, it boggles the imagination to conte~plate what information our guests ~ight have gotten from the hon. rtinister of ~elfare after a two and half hour cross-ey~~~nation, whenever that took place. I regret that we could not have been here to hear the results. I do not doubt that I ~o~ould have learned something. We are very delighted to see that the gfrls from the Girls' Training School are visiting the Ho<.~se, }~r. Speaker. We only have one word of caution. We hope that the minister, on his frequent visits to that school is chaperoned and I am sure that he is.

As far as the gro\lp from the Argentia Naval Base is concerned, we velcome them also and Mr. ~rurphy, Rhodes Scholar for Ne~o•fcundland last year or the year before. 18~4 '. \ l .

The bon. the Prer..ier gave us a learned discourse, }lr. Speaker, On tne QliierenCe DeNeen Ol!r S}"St~m ana tnat: in tn<! i.iniCeQ 5cateS ana OilC ~~:ajor difference is the separation of powers in the United States. The powers of the executive, the legislative branches are separated. I think the one great weakness of our system, ~!r. Speaker, ·they will notice is that the power of the Executive and the Legislative branches are not separated. We do not have any separation of powers and this often leads, Mr.

Speaker, visitors oight note to t~o much power being in the hands of too few people and that is one advantage of the United States system. The hon. Pre:!lier also mentioned that in our system the one difference is that the Government may fall, if it loses a majority in the House of Assernbly. If they had been here last Thursday, they would have seen that possibility occur, "When the Government was caught with just nine me:;:bers on its side of the House. If the Opposition had had all ten of their members present, Mr. Speaker, we might have witnessed the do1,~f~ll of a Governm~nt on that particular day.

Unfortunately that ~as not the case, but ~e can always live in hopes unless these rule-char:~es are passed. So, !·lr. Speaker, 'Ole are quite pleased to see both ~hese groups here. ~e congratulate them on their interest and nope that they "Will enjoy this afternoon's session. BON. F. W. ROw"'E (Nini_~_of ~du c a t ! n): Nr. Speaker, I do not nomlly rise, because every day, I think, 1,;e do have visits from groups of our students and the formal ~elco~e is extended on behalf of the Covern~2n~, on this side of the Bouse by the hon. the Premier.

However, as thi3 is probably the last ti~e, I will have a chance to do it here; insof•r as the visitors here from Argentia are concerned. I said, "insofar as our visitors from Argentia ••• " ~fy hon. friend should have waited for the sentence to be finished. This is one of their troubles, Hr. SpeaLer. They are all<ays too precipitant. They do not ~ait long enough. I would like to add my voice to the others in 'Welcoming them here.

Last year I had the pleasure and the honour of being invited out there, my vife and I were invited out to ATgentia to the graduating cermonies in the spring of the year and it was a ~st enjoyable visit. Following that in the fall, in fact, "We · Yere able to play host to the senior stuc:!ents from the Argentia Base here.in St. John's. i.,Te took them around and showed them something of our culture and something of our history and background and I 18~5 ,, .·

Ap"rll 13th.' 1970 Tape no. 416 Page 4 vas given to understand that they had a cost enjoyable d<'ly here. I have a feeling, as a r e~ult of my co ntacts wi th that school <.t A~gentia, that those c-.any stuccnrs there .,.ho have r.o!"tc throu~;h rh::\t school \.'ill go back to their grea t country to be e::b3ssadors of gooci-uill for Xcwfoundland.

They have been frie:1ds ;;;-...on):: us a:td \.'C er.joy <:<! having them here a:d ~o:c have a feeli ng, too, t l:a t they en j . .:>ycd bcir.~ he r e. l ~1ould like also to add a person:1l t."on.l of r,reetin:-: to the gi.rl here fro~ enot her one of our cd~cational in~tituti0~s. 1 hove do~ble interest in that institution because the House "Will rec"lll th3t it ...-as ba !t in the early days ·of this ad~inistration t ha t that institution, ir. its pre ~e r.t form, vas set up.

The y.irls in t hnt institucicz: hnve t>u:J ar: e::ccllent, a marvelous record,· and ue con pratu la te t hem on t!'lcdr r ec-or:l s of tt:lin ~.n~ a;xle ducati.::n and ve are very haP?Y to see them here and v~ wish them uell. 18tiS

HOS. G.A. FRICKER (Min. of Prov. Affairs): Hr. Speaker, my third atteu.pt to get .on r::ry feet. I am only the L1ern!Jer for·~he district,ho·,,evcr, since t.~gcntia and the Naval Station do co~e within the geographic area that it is my honour to represent, I "Would not like this occasion to pass without extending to the young people from the naval school my heartiest welcome here. 1he Premier mentioned that this \las al!!lOst a gabfest,, I was' going to say,but apparently we are each vying with one another for an cpportu~ity to say something.

I would say that the young people from the Girl's Horne and Training School are also most welco~e. We have he~rd the e~lQGies ~~de with their regard and before sitting I should also like to extend a warm \lelcome to my old friend, the young Mr. Rex Murphy. Thank you! · PETITIONS MR. R. BARBOUR: Hr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition from two co~unities in the district of Trinity North. I was asked by the hon. member for Trinity North \lho, I am happy to say, is ~~king great progress on the road to recovery at the Grace G~neral. The petition, Hr.

Speaker, comes from t~~o vell known and very old communities, the communities of Old and New Bonaventure. The petition, Mr. Speaker, is signed by one hundred and thirty-one residents and the prayer uf the petitlcn and I quote, if I may, Sir; "We the residents of Old and !;ew Bonaventure, district Df ~rinity North, do hereby make petition to have that

section of the road between Trouty and the Old and New Bonaventure U?graded to secondary road standa~ds approximately five miles from Trouty ~hich is also nearby Trinity in Trinity North. We request that the Government vhich consider· the possibility of having some of the blind turns, the curves straightened and the road in general widened to permit two cars to pass with­ out having to have to back up a considerable distance at certain points in order to allow passage. Also, Sir, there is needed substantial railing along sections of the dangerous embankments. Mr.

Speaker, as I look at some of the names attached to this petition I see the na~es of great people such as the Xillers, the McGraths, the Tcopes, the Baileys and many, many others. Mr. Speaker, in the old days, in the good old days, the two co~unities referred to in the p<ayer of the petition consisted of fishermen who ~ent to the Labrador in vessels and were very successful. Also fro~ these two co~unities have cone great people such as 18rJ7

April 13th, 1970 Tape 417 JM- 2 MR. BARBOUR: clergymen, school teachers, magistrates and ccn with trades of all kinds. Mr. Speaker, I cannot do the same justice to the petition that the hon. ~~~ember for the district would do if he vere here but huc.bly, Sir, humbly, with him I support the prayer of the petition and I ask without further delay that serious consideration be given to this petition. Sir, I ask th~t the petition be received and referred to the d~part~ent to which it relate~. HR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that the petition be rec~ived and referred to the dcpartreent to Hhich it relates! MR. A.

J. }IDRPHY: Mr. Spe~ker, I could not let this opportunity pass vithout endorsing the prayer of petition and to re~~rk on the very humble and eloqu~nt manner in which this member presented the petition on behalf of the me~ber who is in hospital. I think he is being very hu~~le indeed to say that he could not do justice to it but, ~!r. Speaker, I heart f.ly endorse the prayer of this petition and con~ratulate the hen. me~ber for the very splendiJ w~y in which he presented the petition and this is not even his own ~istrict.

So ve could figure out if it were his own district I think he would b~ most elcquent incced but I did not t~ink the occasion should pass without supporting the petition. On motion, petition received. NOTICE OF Y.OTIO~iS: HOH. L.R. CURTIS {Hin. of Justice): I give notice that I will·on tocorrow .:~sk leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act To A.-:tend The Motor Carrier Act, 1961." RON. W.J. KEOUGH (Min. of Labour): Mr.

Spe~ker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following Bllls, "An Act To A:'!cnd The Apprenticeship Act, ~.962." Also a Bill,"An Act to Amend the Annu!ll Vacations With P~.y Act, 1969." MR HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, before answers to questions! I give notice I will on tomorrvw ask leave to introduce the following Resolution: "That Mr. Speaker do appoint a Select Cor.""i ttee of this !louse to study and reco~end to this House appropriate ~hanges and revisions to Standing Orders, and that this Select Co~"itte should be repre~cntativ~ of all r~rties in this llouse."

HO!l'o. J.R.S:!ALLHO'J:J (Premier): Xr. SjJeal;er, in reply to question no.241, on the !)rder Paper of A1)l"il 6th., ir. the n:1:ne of the hon. the Le.:~cier of the Opposition, the member for St. John'' Centre. The answer is ttat first after estimates were pre;>ared a proccdur;ll cit;:.nge ~1as m<!Jc, that is a ch.:mgc from revenue refund to refunds out of cxp;;nditu.-c. And second, th.:l t the introduction of the public service pension5 Act 10hich J:rovidcd options for m.:n:ricJ females to opt out of the plan thereby creating a trcrr:, ·nc<>us voll'c:.! of requests for refunds.

In reply to question no• 323, on t;1e Orc!cr Paper of ,\pril 'Jth. in the n<l!:le of t:1e 5J.r.!c han. eentler:::an tr.c <10'-~··cr i~ Lt:c ~:olfe Productions Ltd. Hm;. S.A.:iEARY (:!-!nister of \,"dfard: :-!r. Spen~;er, I h;,vc tiw ;;.n:;\o'er to question no. 338, on toc!:.y's Order Paper ln the n.1r.:~ oi tete hon. r:-"mber for St. John's Hest. Tile ans-.·cr to part one is th::~t t:1c estim.J.ted $1,050,000. the bills are not receive<! fro~:t supplh:rs. The .ms"e't to_part tto, $9.:!4,611. bill not received froo suppliers.

That •-•as -'ls of 11arch 31st. 1969, ar.J the first ans .. :er was as at ~farch 31st. 1970. We usually pay our bills :-!r. Speaker, six !ltOnt'!'ts out of t'!'te yea:- •• .-ithin 30 days, and the remainder of the year, 32, 33, 35 days. Any d;!lays in the past in the payr;;cnts of accounts Ol."ed to merchants by our department will be eliuin~ted vith the introdu~cion of the ch~geovcr of cheques instead of voucher~ to applicant's of short-term assistance. The ans~er to questicn 389, also asked in the nace of the hon. the met:lbPr for St. John's l-'est.

The ans~:er to part one is $775,000. medical, $27,000 non-l!",edical for a total of $802,000. Am I ~oing to fast for the hon, gentlerum? t:on -m~dical $27 ,OOG. total $802,000. The ans~:cr to part t"·o of question 389, is t:lcdlcal -$84J,2:i0. non-medic;,! :,.15,105. for a total of $858,355. The answer to part three is "yes" '!r.

Speaker a study is currently being mi\de and I mi:;ht say by t:te !Jay of c:xpli!nation that this is just one ilspect of a complete :r·cview that is being !l'.ade of the need for various items both large and small that go to ~ake up the bu~g~t of the D~parrm~nt of Social ServicQs and Rehabilitation . with a vic~ to S?endin~ our share of the tax dollars in the best interest of both the clients of t!•e llepartr.1ent and the citizens of the Province generally. HO:i. E.::.r.oBERTS (:iini,;ter of Hc..tlth); :~.

Speaker, tod<~y's Or~er raper brou:;ht f,Jrtil its usual quota of questions standing in the name of the hor •. J:Le~ber for St. John's West 10!-lo of cou:-se is r.1ther a good fcll01; about this 18~9

sort of thing. I have the answ-ers Sir, to three of the questions the han. ger;tle=n has asked. Ques ti.m 403 s:i.r, on today' s Order Paper of co~rse, the answer is "yes," and the anst~er to the second

part is " yes." With respect to questioa 409 .:tr. Speaker, the ans•1er to part one is " no," the anst~er to part tvo is 31st. July, 1969, anc! the anst.:er to part three is as follows Sir, that the health services in the town of LaScie are vithin the area served by the hospit.:1l at Baie Verte which is opeL·atcd in behalf of the Covern~ent, by the United Churc:1 Board of Hone :·fissions. The House ~Jill recall :·lr. Spe;:,ker-, that that arrange:r.ent was rnade 'several year& ago. I arn not sure just how lung ago.

The Go\ ·et·nrr.ent arc the request of rny frier:.d and colleague the member for :,bite ll.:1y Sout:• who of course is also the :Iinister of Coo:r.unity anu Social D.::velopment an~ revie\~ing the situation 1Jith r<!sptct to he.:1lt:1 services in the to,.-n of La5d~. I hope \le can ca~e im;>rove:1:cnts. The precise fonn of Lhose i n:provcm-:!uts ~lr.

Spea:..cr, and the date on which 'WC can ilp meCJC:nt them is a rn.:.tter He are not yet able to announce. \.'ith respect to question 410 Sir, agJ.in on today's Order Paper, the information is as fo1lo1Js; on April lst. 1970 there were e~:>ploycd by the H.J.iloylen P.ospital lacat<:d in Ba.!e Vene five medic:J.l Joct:.>rs, (o~tc of vho:r. I believe "as part-tirr .c Sir, ) but there vere five doctors, there were fifteen nurses, am I going to f.:1st for the han. gentlertan?

There 1o1as one trained X-ray technician, there was one trained labodtory teci;nician, ther-e tventy nurses a.ides and there t..•ere t';..renty-ei~ht in ti1e other staff categories. With respect to part t~o:o of the hou. gentleman's question Hr. ~peaker, there Yere thirty-tt.:o of those seventy people 1Ji1o have been employed since April 1st. 1969. :·:incteen nur;;e:; have been employed since ,\pril lst.l969 vhich in vie1; of the fact only fifteen arc employed, means a very hi gh turn over. Five nur:;~:; aides out of tw;:mty, a.'1d ei-sht of the t~¥enty-.::ight ot:1cr. HO:l.

E. ::JAhC: (:'in is ter a f '1nn i c ipal ,\[ f ::irs): ~!r. 5pea~cr, in ;:ms\Jer to question no. J92 on tod;1y's Orflcr Paper, ;~.skcd by the hon. member for St. John's West. The amn~er to tl1c first part of the question S6,0'J'J,617. !he ans1o1er to the second part of the question, the answer is nil because all these loans are for a period of t~o to five years and are cover-ed by gu~runtees ~hich are not yet expired, The anst,cr to the third part of the question, is nil. The function of the ~:ewfoundland :Iunicipal Financin>: Corporation is to repay loans 18GO

April 13. 1970. Tape 418, Page 3- ai>'b t o chaTtered banks Oil behslf of the cmnicipahncs . iJcbcnttrres iot ;.;,.;,_ amounts repaid are thea issued to the corporation by the 11\unic'ipal.!ties, and L .might acd t 1.:1t the ~:c:.·fo undland .lunicipJl Fint~.ncin g Co potation receives i'ts funds fro!:\ aono unts allocated to it by the ?.epartmcnt of Finance . tR. CROSBIE: In connection \dth part t < ~o of the . qucstio:t is the hen . Minister going to tab l e the r e t o f the info=r..ation? When the loans w~re 18G1 - - , ..

the !~formation but vhen the lo::~ns ~ere·. 1:-H·.urred the mortr,ar,e loan and municipnlity date, the name of the bank in•.rol ved, ;he interest rate, MR.DA~!E: Yes, Hr. Speaker, I -will take that under advisement and prep:1re that part of the ouestion. (luestion Ho. 393:, asked by the hon, member for St. John's t.rect, on today's Order Paper. This covers the :1nount of $572,959. 20. This represents rin amount remaining on an advnnce of $1,200,000 to the City. of St. John's Housing Corporation by the city.

The advance vas made to the Corporation by the city for the acquisition and devclop~ent of housing areas within the city. Provisions hawe been made to make annual pa~ents to the city and this nov represents the outstanding amount due on this amount, and final payment. Ouestion No. 394 on tciday's Order Parer asked by the hon. member for St. JOhn's West. The ans;rer

(1) Mr. Peter }:Urphy: Mr. John ~furnhy: }!r. Hilson }!urphy; Hr. Albert Sinyard; ~r. Gernld ~urphy; .o.nd Mr. Peter Hurphy is President of the Community Council. {2) November 15; 1969. {3) Parker's Cove received the follat1in~ r,rants, Revenue p,rants, $2565. Emergency Assistance ~rants, 55500. Capital road grants $2212. making a to~al of $10, 277. The Comf'lunity Council of Parker's Cove have borro,red a tot<~l of $13,000 and th~ lo<Jn ~~J.s not guaranteed by the Government. {4) $12,000.

The vater systcf'l is not oner<Jtinr. prJperly in all the areas b~alltSe of not sufficient ~Jatcr pr!:!ssnre, houever an em!inecr from ~ dep<~rtment h<Js visited the scttlc~ent and investigated the difficulties bein~ exr>erienced with the '!..'ntcr supply and reco=.endations to correct this difficulty are nm-l undP.r consideration by my department. MP... H_IGi~V.A~: :. '!r.

Soeaker, can he advise the !louse any r.~ectings of the co.Nunity council of Parker's Cove ha•:e been held since ~lovcmher 111, 19691 Y.~.~~l - ~_:__ Anv reetin;! at Parker's Cove ? '"'R.HICK"L~.:'l: Any meet"in~s of the conndl, council t:leetin!'s? ~lot to t:lY knm,•lcd~c hut I \·'i 11 t:1lcc 1 t unc!cr advisenent. l have not been advised if they had n r.eeting or not. ~Q_SJJIE: _ A sapplcment:Jrv question, "r. Sneaker? There are no lo::ms,~ndc hv 18G2

the governl:lent l:i• t~c counci.l'? 1!R.D:'!.~:- They- did borrou ~13.01)0 hut thh ~:<1~ nel!oti:!tcd hy the council themselves, ~nthout a ~overn~ent ~u~rantcc. ~ffi.CRO~:~~: The ro,ernJ:~cnt itself h~s not loaned them anv money. _!I_!l!_._~·_:'-!:_~0_?~~ (~fin. of Fi<:~cries): !lefore the Orders of the n~v ~!r. St1eal:er. I lo.'ould lik!! to ~;ive the :m:'a:cr to nucr.ti,1::1 :lo. )1')7 on toc':w's Clrdcr Par-er asked hy t~e hon. the memher for ~t. John's !:est. (I) $21,63n.2R (2} ~o. Or:N:!:S 0 F Tl!f. 'r),\Y: - - --·-- - ---- !ffi .A::~m.r~~~--:J. Lcaccr of the 'l[Ji"lor.i ticm): :'-!r.

Snc<1.l:er, at this men<:nt t would 1 i'\:1:! to direct a cuc<;tion to the llr.n. the i'rc•J:liC'r l:ith reference to a rur'lour th:tt a_vt:f.t h:~s been issued tod::ty ·.-.r a by-election in St. John's E:1st. ~·r. ~nca!:£>r, 3 fet·r weeks a .~n the Parli<l'1C'nt of C't~.nada enacted legislation creatin~ a coroor<l.t1on for the nurooses of tr:1d{pg and marketin~ salt codfish inter-provincially and tn the exnort trade. The provisions of this Bill which I have the nleasure of introducin~ are conplementary to the federal Bill and are made necessarv to enable the corporation to conduct its business in this Province.

The passa~e of this le~islation Sir, bv the Parlia~ent of Canada, is :n ny opinion 'lnd in the opb Len of the Covern~ter.t is th:tt Ion~ l:1st :t reco~nitton of the !m!lort:tnce c>f the s:tlt fish inrlustry in the E'r.C'nmw "f the Pre>vincc and in the ecn:-tomy of the X:ttinn. ·~nv tf~~s ~~. Sneaker, over t~c p:tst twenty-one years, this Government h~vc stated firm!y, clearlv their position. in respect of the !'rinciples e"bodicd in this Bill ;md ne•;er !'lOrC clearlv than in the great fishery ccif,..,·.=:-cc called h:1 the 'l'rc>!'lfe::: in 191\J.

That conference Sir, 1\S you knou l·!as ::~ade uo of the fish tre~des of the Province The fisheiT'en. reorcsentntivcs of t~e Government of C:1na;b ;md the Covere;,ent of Ne~Jfoundland and resulted in the a.-,oointmPnt of a c:orom1.ss1.on vhich 'lo.'.:lS to 18G3

look into and m~ke <eco~c ndn:ions to the C.ove~ent on the fis he r! s of Netlfoundlond. and T.a r:1c!or. That conference ond that co m~ is sion h!cb resulted the_refro;a S!r, came fon~ard with a num!>t'r of proposals the !:lain one. oE lihich •' val> tlu!t tne Covernncnt of , e<~foundlnnd which s:>urred a !".overncnt to have t he Fed eral Govcrn oc.nt t n troducc l c~is lation for t he mnrketinr, of salf fish.

I ll'liSht sny in passi.:t, Si;, a!ld I mts rer-~indP.d of this in doin r, sorne research to the introduction of this ~ill t h:tt in t he sar:te con ference :md reco::!!'!lcnded by the same co ~ ission we re s~t' other important foccts of our fishing econo!:ly some i~r.port:mt recon:~en dat ions. (1) the tvl'lve mile !i r.i t ~·hich ve have heard a p,ood deal in the ~s t several dnys . (2) the trAtn in~ , the need for training of Hsher.:len a:td ue h.1.vc today opcr:ttinr, :!.n ~ewfou n dl:m d the finest fish~ des colle e, ce~ta:!.nl)• in ::orth Al:lcr!ca and ncrh.-!t>s one of t he fines t in the vorld.

That com:dssio:'\ advocated as ~ell, an incre ased effort on the part of the federal Govern~ent for the devel~ pmcn t of nev re sources in the Province. And 1 believe Sir, :• ~ .a olir-ec t 18G4

April 13th. 1970 Tape 420 PK- 1 HR. J~LO~E!: the direct consequence of that conference and the commission i.inciing we can look at. che cievelop-.nen[ oi ~ne herring fishery, 'the queen crab fishert, the shrimp fishery ~nd expansion of our frozen ground fish industry, and the devalopment of course of the herrin~ reduction industry as the Premier has mentioned • ....

That comDission also brought attention to a very serious situation in the Province, and that ~as the need for an acceptable supply of water to the main fish plants of r:ewfoundland, and Sir, I think, as of this moment, plans, quite a numbl'r, the majority in fact have been fitted with l~ater supplies, a progr~~ of the Atlantic Development Board, and others are on the draving boards, and perh:~ps within a years' time all the major fish plants will have been fitted. The Province also took quite a role in that program.

That coromission reco~~ended as well, Sir, a numbc• of cocmunity st~ees around the Province, so that fish could be handled in a ~anner more in keeping with the times and in keeping with the del!'.ands of the market.

I just rnentiCitt·.J the very importznt dcvelopP.cnt Sir, that resulted from that conference, but the cain one, and tha one with which ~o:e are concerned today is of course the marketing of salt fish. ltow in sp.au.k..ing earlit!r in t1iis hvr1. lie, use, r;ir, I remarked that thi;; legislation would bring to the salt fish . industry of the Province a deg::ee a measure of stability, that that industry has not had in its long, long history. 1 can refer han. ~embers to a nlli"ber of difficulties that the salt fish industry faced in the past t~enty years.

The bon. the Pre;;,ier -will be very familiar with ther-because I recall readinr. not so long ago, when in an address he made to the Rouse, I believe, it was in 1950 or 1951, having to do with the s~erning crisis ~hich pretty well knocked out the salt fi~h industry of N~~fo~~dland. There have been other periods of trouble for the industry since that time. Perhaps, the r.ost recent wzs in 1967 and in 1968, and wit~ this I wculd sa7 all members of this hon. House are all very familiar.

This great crisis in the salt fish industry arose from two main causes, one was the devaluation of sterliDgs, and the consequent devaluation of the currencies of other countries vhich ~ere interested in salt fish. And another serious set back that hit us at the sa~e time, vas a sad quality situation in our main market. So on several occasions in the past twenty-one yea~s, Sir, ~e have had to go literally hat in hand, to the Federal Governr.ent to seek- relief for those who vere involved in all phases cf this industry. So 'i.iLL~n I er.1phns:!.~, therefore,

April 13th. 1970 Tape 420 PK - 2 MR. }::.um;EY: that this new legislation will bring stability to the industry, I would like. to refer to the !louse, to some of the problcrr.s of the frozen fish industry, ~hich hav.:- some parallels in the salt fish industry. The House will recall about two years ago, the !louse was sitting -at that time, that the frozen fish ind"tostry of the, . Province t!as in a very, very precarious position. In fact the frozen fish industry of CanaJa and perhaps, I could go on to say, the ~ro•~d fish industry of the world, as we know it, was in a very, very serious position.

In fact Sir, insofar as J!ewfoundland was concerned, I can say thot it w2s touch and ~o, for quite some time, as to whether the '1:\ajor operating plants in this Province vould continue to operate. Han. ~embers of the House will recall that, hon. members on the other side of the House Yho t~ere in the Governr::cnt at that time will understand what I toean when I Yill say this. And, Sir, I am hn?PY to be able to ~ay nov sol!'.ething of course that is well kr.o~:n to all hem. members, and that is ~hat frozen fis~ industry has come back quite dra~atically, the impr~ve~ent is nothing short of rel:!arkable.

It shows the charact~rictic of the fishing industry, that perhaps it mal:es it unlike that of any other prir-w.ry 1nl]ustry. It does have a ~emarkable capability of corning back ve~y quickly. I wou!d not have said, two years ago, that the frozen fish ind•.!stry t.:ould be back on the footing that it is today. But, Sir, this can be attributed to having placed behind it the support of the national Government. I think, that single fac: More than any ot~~er fact, is" a.: countable for the quite renarkable recovery for the f:ro:en fish' industry today.

The fact that, the national Govern~ent for the first time, placed itself squarely and fi~ly behind the frozen fish industry. Briefly, ~hat t~e Federal Govern~ent did at that ti~e was to say to the producers in Ne~.>foundland the 1:1arket in the United S~ates 2.ppears to be able to buy all the fish that it can handle at twenty cents a pound, this is a price that will not perr.it you to operate profitably, we Yill therefore, enter the ~arket as a· buyer, and you have no reason to sell in the a~erican market under twenty-four cents a pound.

Briefly, ~hat the Governr.ent of Canada did Sir, was to say to the fish producers in ::ewfoundland, <:e vill buy your fish, ar.d pay you t.,;enty-four cents a pound, if the price rc~ains bela~ that, we ~ill continue to buy it, ~e will put the resources of the Govcrn~ent ~f Canada ~erind you. If on the other hand, the price !~proves, then the seller or the producer will have an ' t: ·

April 13th. 19go Tape 420 PK- 3 opportunity of buying back froiD the Gove.rnment of Canal!a his fish and plating it on the mat"ket ~t a higher price. :But, Sir~ I can repeat that the recovery since that time has been .. quite drl!Unatic, was b"rought about largely at the measure as a result of that support. Mr. Speaker, this Government believe that the Newfoundland Salt Fish Industry c.an be made lr\Ore efficient, it can be updated, and beccme a stronger contributor to the incomes of our fiahemen. The world demand for sal£ fish contin:ues very strong.

And "We have long held to the belief Sir, that steps must be ut.en ~o place this industry in a better positi·on to capture a reasonable share of the world's market. And o.n that Sir, it might well be of interest to the J;!ouse to know that the market for salt codfish as remained rou&hly unchanged for decades. It is still around 250,000 metric tons a year. However, the world trade, as distinct from the market, the trade in fish, bas dropped.

And it has dropped beeause of course countries such as Spain and Po~t:ugal. that tventy yea .rs ago, bought in rhe trade of the world all t!-.at th"7 needed for their cn.T& cc.ns"Umptior.. i;ht:y a.a.e now producing a: large qullntity what they the~:~s~lves eonsume. So 18G7

so the world trade in salt fish has gone do;.m. Trnde in the sense of trade, as hetveen countries, but the c:arket. the consumption of salt fish has remained unchanged. Nov in Newfoundland, at the c:m:;ent, where eighty-five per cen_t of Canada's salt fish originates, production has been shifting steadily from salt fish to frozen fish. Forty years ago, we were exporting around 80,000 tons of salt fish a year. In 1968-69, perhaps even l~ss, we were exporting around 20,000 tons. MR. SMALLI-.'COD: About one-quarter. MR. ~.ALO~<EY: -----· About one-quarter. There has been, Hr.

Speaker, a gradm!.l transition fran cur~ng by salt to the frozen fish industry and this is quite understandable because the frozen fish industry is relatively new in the Province, being not ~~re than thirty years old and it has grown quite dramatically and with the advent of roads and easa of disposition, fish has tended to nave into freezing as distinct from salting.

But, Sir, I think we have to remember in looking at the Province the c:.ajor developments in frozen fish have tended to take place south of Cape Bonavista and a line drawn from Cape Bonavista to Port aux Basques. 'Ihis is where the great developr.:e"!lt is taking l)lace in the frozen fish industry and there is good, sound logic in that. North of Cape Do~avista, we have a development in frozen fish; in Twillingate, LaScie, Englee and in St. Anthony and perhaps or,e or two s1r.aller seasonal operations.

But they are seasonal for geographic reasons and, therefore, the developiT.ent and the rapid growth has tended to take place in that part of the Province where all year round, operations are possible. But, Sir, to carry that just a step further. The production of salt fish has consequently tended to move north. Not too many years ago, perhaps not r.ore than ten, fifteen years ago, one of the majo~ producing areas for salt fish in !iewfoundland -was in Placentia Bay.

I believe, w!e have in the visitors' gallery today a ~.an who spent pretty well all of his life time in the salt fish industry of the Province and who was a merrber also of the co=ission set up by this Govermr.ent in 1963. I refer to }1r • .Jii:l }lcCarthy, formerly of Red Island, Placentia Bay. Placentia Bay, not rr~re than fifteen years ago produced more fish, salt fish, than perhaps any other bay in the Province 18G8

Tape no. 421 Page 2 April 13, 1970 of Newfouncland. Hell that is up to fifteen years ago. Quite a dramatic change has taken place there, because the great nu~er of communities, of course, have been resettled and there has been quite a remark~ble development in the frozen fish industry. So it has, Sir, tended to move north.

Tha salt fish industry has tended to con~centrate rather heavily say froc Cape Bonavista - well perhaps farther south than that, Conception Bay, Trinity Bay, but rather heavily in the ~orthern Peninsula, in the ~~ite Bay and in the Straits' area, in southern Labracor, in the central Labrador coast <lnd in northern Ne~~foundland. The production has been running about 500,000 quintals a year and perhaps sixty per cent of this is north of Cape Freels. So this is brou~ht about largely by the emphasis on fr~~en fish in the southern p2rt of Newfoundlcnd, ~o.·hcre y;;ar ro'l!nd operations are possible.

I believe, Sir, that for many years to come in the s~ttlements, in the towns and villaees, fishing villag~:l of the north, tl-!ere uill continue to be a salt fish ir:dustry and the introd1.!cticn of tl1is le~isl.:~tion, the passage of this le~islation will, I hope, Sir, tend to improve the incooe of the fishe=rEn ~ho make their living in it and ~l~ ~ill ccntinue to ~ak~ their living in it. The short-ten~ objective of this le~islation, S~r, as stated by the minister in the House at Otta1.;a is to im:•rove and stabilize the returns to fishernen znd to do this by naxirnizing, by getting the most in the market.

This is in the short run and in the lcr.~ run to get better returns by improvinr, the qu.:tlity of the prod,;ct, and to gain , regain a place in the higher price markets of the ~orld. Nov it has benn asked, I think, rerh.:~ps if not in this session of t!.e H:Jt!se; it has been asked publicly that ho-;,; can a corporation achie\le b;:;t .:cr re-:;ul ts than tne traditional trade in the Pro•;ince? That is a F:Ood question.

To this, Sir., I ~o;ould s.:ty th.:tt -with the c:.edi:: of the people of Canada b~hind this industry, the corpor:'ltion uill have the opportunity to finance the collection, storing, m:'lrketin3 of fish, as it never has been financed before. This is not to detract from the traditional salt fish trad<! of the Provir.ce. All hen. ~r.embcrs \'i 11 knov and soTT:e hon. me~r.bers have been involved personally in the s~l~ fish industry of the Province. They know the lirr.i ted resources tl:at the tr.::.~c l:nvc to c<Jrry out this business 1SG9

April 13th., 1970 Tape no. 421 Fage 3 and as so~eone put it to me on one occasion, said that the salt fish merchants of Newfoundland do~~ through the years, almost without exception, vere broke at least once a year. What he meant I think was to say that they were over-extended, at least, once a year, and I think be meant that great a~nunts of credit had to be distributed, given out so the ~erchant in turn had to get all the credit that he could get from St.

John's and from other suppliers and there is no question about it; it is beyond denial that the ~erchants of Newfoundland who have done a great job with the ·resources at their command were over-extended. Their eredit was well over-extended in almost all cases, at least once a year. So as I say with the credit of the people of Canada behind this corporation, they vill have an opportunity to finance with greater ease the collection, storing and marketing of fish. ~e corporation will be in a position to hold fish of the market, for the sa~ reason.

Very often in the past, as bon. members ~11 kno~, a fish merchant was obliged for the sheer force of limitation of credit to dispose of his fish he could not hold for the most advantageous market. He had to ship because either his suppliers or his bank, somebody was·· pushing it pretty hard, therefore, he could not enter the market at the most advantageous ti~. The corporation ia. also enabled in the le~islation to set the initi~l prices and these can be set, I believe, in such a vay as to demand ~uality. They can offer premiuc for quality, premium prices. These things our fishe~en are beginning to understand.

These things will not happen overnight, Sir, but a start will be made with the institution of this eorporation. There are other ways I 1870

other v.lys I believe in v!dch the corporation can :hr.prove the market returns, wl1ich I think hon. m'!l!hers tdll understand and certainly the rtsnenncn vili under~tand and that is, traditionally n fishernnn vho s.::~lts his catch vill hold it until !;uch tiT"le as he can p:et the best nossible !)rice. Fishermen have very often hnd fish cured to the rir,ht der.rec of cure and dri~th and was .. not satisfied tdth the price offered and made lds O'-'n decision to hold on for another t<:o or three uee!ks and I "1-rill unit for another buyer.

And the result of th;:~t has heen that, r:ood quality fi!;h h:!s !J;:-cn very often held by the fif.herncn for "t."E'c!:s :m•l for nonths in pre!":i ~es : t:.1t wert' net sui. ted to the holding of cur"d fL;h and hy the time he clo .o;e~ th£' ck.::~l the CJt'd i ty hnd dctcrior.:ltP.d. be no rc<1son for the tishcr:w::t to hold his fis':. i~ f:~ct, t 1 u~r~ t>i1.1 be every re.::~son to d::spose of his fi5h once the fish is brought to a de-gree of cu-re and dri~d . that that n:~rticulnr nrice demands. !;o fer that rc.::~son fis't cr.n mo\•e out~ of th~ hands of fi!':b~rm~n acd into stores ,.•:uore tc!'l;->Cratures CC>'1t-roll.:.d :tnd consenuer:tlv there ~o~ill be there a better on!'ort~.:nity of m;:~i.-..t;:~ir,\n~ th~ '!Uali tv.

There are "!"rfid.endcs, no doubt, Sir, to be i>rou~ht into t!-,e WlV in which fiFh is ,:hiNH'd to the tl'arket, in ~.'hie-h. it i;; coll.:!ctcd fr.,,:-1 the fishermen ::~nd these arc •·1ithin the co::~netenc-c of the corn0r,1t!.on. I SU?!'est, to brinr, ahnut. There will he a new situation arise from this corporation and that is th<lt the ffsheTl'len Pill, for the first tiu.c, h>lve 'in idea in the sprin<; of the yC">tr '"-'h-'lt nrice that thev l"ay exr>ect for tJ.eir catch. Fp to the -present tirne they h.;ve usuallv very little idea :tbt,ut \:h:\t they will recd.ve, hy the.

Co,.,bined Fonr.., !loi!rd, ccrt:~inly uncer tl•ei r d i rcct ion, .:md the prlccs vere set. So this hu:dness cf not knoHin2 in the ~rrinr of thP. vr-:~r t:h:1t they ~7!11 c>et for their fish, until the fall cf thf' ycnr, is, 1TI :!IV opf.n:!.of"! the rever!'.~ of whnt the situ~tion 5hould h~.

The fisherOT\'n h:1v~ h<.!en :>ufclerl hv Tllroflr, in 'll::!nV case~. or ~v instinct, in tl-,e ot!al:! t f E's of fish th., !" hP. mtJst t n:- rn nrCiduc-~. r.nt und~r this before t!l<:!y co~.:nen::e fi~hin~ .,.-h.-~t the~· m..,., cxn.~c-t to rP.t for rliffi:'rent prades of flsn. ,!h-ese ,, o_f ccurse, '.1!11 be rel<J.tec!, as· t~ : cy !>hi:'nld h!', t . ., m:~rket 1971

~etu~o;. Most hon. members uill kno-..1 that un to a ye~r or so ap,o the high proportion of salt fish !Jout>,~t in e:et-~foundlc.nd from fisherr~en wo.s bougllt on a tal qual basis. There ~-1.'1S no specification of grade. The fishe~en who produced top quality fish received no more for his fish than the fishermen who took very little care. So ve can easily irnap;ine the effect this had upon the quality if there ~.-as no incentive to produce a better quality of fish. All our markets nou, Sir, require a better grade of fish and all our markets are in a better position to p~y ~rices for better quality fish.

I think this is somethin~ that ve should reme~her. And there is a reluctance Sir, in the market to accent the poor grades of fish even at reduced prices, because other food coMmodities are enterin~ our traditional markets, the poultry producers are entedn~ the Co.rihhean market and they are doing a bang up job and it behoves us if we are to continue to sell in the market, to think in a like manner. Mr. Speaker, there are rerhaps many other thin~s that I could say about this Bill I look forward, I look. upon it as a verv very positive step.

I look forward to it as an instrument to improve the incomes of our salt fishe~en and t!hen I recall that in 1Q63, at the fisheries conference, that this was one of the :.tain :-ecomnendat ions to nrise oet of th;1.t P.~.;at conference. I i: is unfortuno.te that it took so lonr., but 'lole·have it today. the Government of Canada and several other provinces are introducin7 le~i~lation ~~ I have the honour to do in this House today and I know that it wi ~ 1 tl.o mur:h for the fishetT'.en of the Province. ~r. Sneaker, I have much nleasure in moving second re?.ding of this .1\ill. !-!R~~RJ.E: "'r.

Speaker to anyone that has had anv connec:tion v1hatsoever in the salt fish trade of this Province I think that this Rill comes as a great brealdn;r of da·rl t:;ht, sunshine you l:li;!ht say, to an indu~trv that has been plar,ued with all the trouhles :md tri!lUlo.t ions knmm to rna:·kind from the dnv of its co~ence1:1ent. As the hon. minister iust mentioned I do not think there is any ph.1se of business in !-le ... foundland that has heen more sub.iect to ups and dm-:ns over the ~·ear. In passin~ ~r.

Srenkcr, I ni~ht say that I for one since:-clv hope that the current ru:-to11n; ~;hich arc r,oin~ ahout as ~;he vill be in char!'e of that board arc proved to be actu.1 1 fact. I know of no !'erson better I'!Uali fii?d or bPttcr suit!'d to fill this ioh than the ncrson ..,ho has been n2ned. I shi!ll not n:1~c him noH of cnur!':r-, "••t ~:c .'111 kn~··.r uho he is. It is 1872 t '•

not often that ~re have an onoortunity on thts side of th~ House to pass a ~o on this particular inst~nce. He kno~s the fish business inside out and upside dot.on, has lived ~dth it all his life, :lnc nuite apart from that he is an individu<Il l<ho hns been trnincd in husincss, Hell exnerienced in the field, .- and I think has every qualification ~·7 hich it' is possjble to desire for this ~articular position. !{o"", Nr.

Speaker, in sayin~ that I :~lso offer to the people "Who take up this job rny sincere sympathy because there is nothi.ns:: of a n1cre complicated and diverse nature than the salr codfish business. The ~ualtty of the produce which is the all essential in~redicnt to a successful rn:~rketing operation. It · is somethinP, which takes all witted ~an to control properlv. Salt fish as everybody kno~rs is a very perishable article. ~~ot only is it a perishable

article but the oarket demands for the different oaalitics and grades and sizes are quite beyond the concer>tion of the ordinary person Hho hns had no experience in the business. •.;.~ can ~o ri,s:-ht fror.! the r;oint >:here S-"lr codfish years a~o was produced on the L~tr~dor const and kno~ as Labrador slop, a detestihle nar.1e, but uhat it me:mt to sav \UlS uncured fish.

In other 1-:c:::ds l:r:!.::gi:l.g ~· :et f:!.sh -v:h:!.ch caMe h::d_ fro~ the !.a!lr.::cc::- cc;.'l:::: in the held::: of the schooners and then it is partly dried and s~ioped off tb Mar\et. this is one tyoe of fish it ~~ent all the way up from that to the very hardest cured fish which at one time went to the Brazil mnrkets '~here the l!lOisture content ~:as taken dot.;n to almost nil, and that fish was like a piece of board and had to be soaked for days before it could be eaten but it was of consistency and quality that could stand up under the most difficult and tropical conditions. Now Mr.

S~eaker, I have been in rnost of the fish m:~rkets in the ~mrld one time and another selling this prod~ct, and I kno~ the many r.any problems which can arise in givinr. our customers soMething really t~ortht•hile eating or really fit to eat.

Because from the time this fish is cau~ht by the fishermen the time that finally gets on somebody's plate in Porto Rico, Jamaica, Brazil, Portugal, Spain, Greece or where have you, it c:~n p,o through all varieties of climate, all varieties and difficulties ~nd trans~ortation but chief and mainly it can ~o through all the trihulations of trying to be preoared in a proper sanitary manner. ~ow no market 1873

t'K - ~ MR. EARLE: no ~atter ho~ efficient it eay be or how good it r.ay be, -ill be successful combined Yith its ma=king operation it does exert a tremendous control over the quality of the product ~hich is bein~ produced. The hon. minister said, the world cons=ption of salt fish has been fairly static over the years, that is correct. Unfortunc.tely, he. also says, a grea~\:o~ the sales l_l.ave been taken by our CC1l'.petitors, because they are catching their own fish. But, Newfoundland can still retain a large share of that market, at very good prices and at very good returns to the fishermen. If Newfour.dlnnd can produce an

article which can be freely sold in these markets and cS the minister has also said, ~arkets are resisting poor quality. In all of the fish markets of the 'World today, we de~and this for quality food. People all over the world are becoming modern. They are not prepared to accept someth!ng which is just slapped to them in any sort of condition, and consequently they are demanding a quality

article particularly in a food prodcct. And as I say no marketing organization that maybe . created or devised by man can be truly successful unless it has a good product to market. And this is the first and essential step in which this organization must exert great control. The very type cf the fis~ prodccts ~hich ~ere exoorted from this cocntry in the past in thenselves left a lot to pe desired. Just to give you a slight idea of some of the complications of the trace. To begin vith in size, it went all the way from extra large to large, to medium, to large s~all, small to tom trout.

This was in about, I suppcse as t~enty or thirty different grades of fish. And each of these grades of fish had to be prepared for ' specific markets. For instance, Ne;..o York Earkets like the fairly soft uncured fish, for that particular trade. <fuereas the Italian market likes a thin hard dried fish. The S?anish market likes a thick, hard dried fish. Portugal is rather inclined to take fish ~ith more salt, and not quite so hard cried. Greece 'lolas a great ~~rket at one time !or our La~rador fish which was sent there. the semi-~et fish. All of these complications enter into this problem of ~arketing good fish.

And I used to think, when I visited the market years ago that to have to face up to a custc~ : e:::, <Jnd say you were selling him thirds, it was al~ost an ad~ission of defeat before you entered into this premises. The verj title of thirds, !aid it ~as a third ~r a de fish. wnereas what you were trying to sell the~ was a food product. And it was not very good sales propab!!nda, to go out and offer so::-.ebody scrc.ethinc, called thirds, ~o.·hcn you 1874

Apr!~ 13th. 1970 Tape 423 I'K- 2 tffi. EARLE• are trying to sell him so~ething fer his dinner table. in ."~~::!. ! ~:::!.::.!~ ~~~ ;::!:'!:: !:'ff/th., l'!<:h husinc;s over the years to a self- deprecation, a rather bigotry attitude on our awn part to the product itself, ve never built up a p,ood reputation for it, because I think, over his~orr it has been such a difficult business, that the trade itself felt that if .· there was something, if they could do so~ething else they ~ould be glad to do it, instead of sell fish, because certainly there ~ere no real noney in it.

Over the years there was no consistent profit, and those who had any sense vhen they made a good profit in some years, they ~ot out of it as fast as they could, and took their ~oney and put it into somethinr, else. And that happened throughout the history of Nevfoundl:md tirr.e efter'.till!.i2, ·the unfortunate ones \:here those who hung on and hunr: on, and did not get out of that business because eventually they ~·ere knocked off one by one, and today you cannot see any of the great na~es that years ar,o ~ere in the fish business. There are none of them left.

Virtually_ none of them at all, because if they had kept on after that" fato~ S!lSU":"E·i they ~ere going out of that business, they were going to be forced out of it. Now coupled with this ~t the time of Confederation this ~hole process ~hich ve are talking abo•Jt, today which !s culminated in this ~alt i'ish }!arketin!! P.ct goes back a lot further than 1963 or 1964.

Because fr~ the day vc entered into Confederation, there were groups of trade people and fishe~en going to Ottawa on various and many occasions trying with the help of various goverr~ent officials in Ottawa to work out some of the solutions of the salt f~sh bus!ness.

And there are all sorts of scherr.es proposed and talked about and discussed in these meetings, fro:!! marketing orgainzations through the catchers organization, control people, and inspection aurl what have you, all the way down the line of the production of fish, but never for socc reason unknovn to myself at: the time, could r.~c all seem to get our heads to~ether.

There vas I think first of all, a ~reat suspicion on the part of people in the reainland, ~ho kne~ nothin~ about salt fish, particularly govern~~nt offid.als • A g:reat suspicion that this 1~as a dying industry, that th2re vas no future. 7he product itsclf vas so:r.ething t,;hich they could not quite get to their heads ~hy any~ody I~ anted to eat it. And it t:as so:r,ething that "Wa!l probably best, if it ju;;t too!~ the natural course and disappeared.

It vas never recognized, I do not think in offic!~ls service as being an inportent industry, yet to Ne\.•foundland throuzho'-Jt the years it r.~as a very, ve-:y essential 1875

April 13th. 1970 Tape 423 PK- 3 MR. EARLE: part of our livlihood. But, that could not somehow or other be gotten across. Then on top of that apart fro~ the internal co~petition in Newfoundland there 1o1as also the corr.petition from r.~ainland suppliers and this Hr. Speaker was even worse, and even .!!lore difficult for Nel·lfoundland to handle, than was their o•Jn internal co~petition. E~cause although in 1949 when it becace part of Canada, it was many, many years after that before the salt fish b11siness was really part of Canada.

All 1o1e did, we ••ere thrown into laps of a greater and larr,er and wore violent cornpet!tcve situation. Fro~r. those on the mainland vlho l.'ere handlinr. this product, and many of those lo.'ho were buying their supplies frorn our o1-:n fishern.cn, and what was happening that they carne to Newfoundland and bourht their supplies entered into the market and fought us tooth and nail.

This suitation was . axtre~ely unhealthly and I recall on one occasion, when I was Chairman of NAFEL, that is the much ebused ~-rgani:ration ve have heard of over the years, when I was Chairman of NAFEL, I was in Ottawa on a deler,ation, discussing the p1:·oblems to vhich today we hope ~o-•e have found a solution. I remet«ber the late c. D.

Howe ~ who at that time was ~inister of Trade, saying to us as he left his o££ice, if you can get the co-operation of the }!aritimers, by that he meant at that tine particularly ~ova Scotia, '1-le will have a marketing orgxnization that ~~ill handle the sales of all Newfoundland salt fish. We came back and decided for months to get this co-operation, but it never came through. ,\nd I think, ~ith all respect to the late Mr. Rowe he knew that it could not come true.

Because here again, this was a strong suspicion ~,d a truthful suspicion, I mirht say at the time, that this was only a merchants organization, and not a fishermens or~anization.

But inspite of alltthat has been said about that, there were months and months, and years and years, of r..ee ting among the trade here, '!Ohich I sat in on hundreds of !:leetinl!:s, in \oihich the discussions took place night after night and day after day, as to \oihy the fishermen the~selves could not be part and parcel of this, as a matter of fact, at one time I remember quite clearly that we had met as a trade and had agreed that we would try to call such a joint meeting and 1876 I

MR. EARLE: And I then rang up a Minister of GovernMent at that titr.e and suggested to him that under Government spo!1sorship such a meeting be held. He was very ent!-tusiastic. Incido::ntally th<~t :1inis tcr is r.o longer a Minister of Government he is gone sone\lhcre else. But at that tirne he t.;as very enthusiastic that such a meeting be held and this was long before the 1960's. I went home to rny lunch thinking that .-at last tJe had accol!lplished something, that \JC were gain~ as a trade to co-operate with the Government and with the fishermen.

At lunch time thnt day I got a call from that Uinister and virtually what he said t•as forget it. For political purposes the Government ~!ere not prepared to cooperate, and th.::y did not ,;ant to see harmonious vorking between the fisher­ men, the trade and Government, This defeated it on that particular instance, and that particular time.

The NAFEL organization, I l..'ould like to have something to say about this in passing because I feel very strongly that over the years the people who were closely associated with the salt fish, the m~rketing of salt fish are those who are most experience::! and can· gi. vc the best advice to t:lis organization, this new marketing organization.

I hope most sincerely that the advice of these ge~tlemen is sought, and that they arc asked to cooperate because, the I:liH.keting of salt fish is not somcthinc :'!lat a trade Corr.;:;is.>!.oner say, resident in Jamaica or Puerto Rico or some1vhere ~an just x:ing up a few­ friends and say " look boys, hmo' about l:ouying some salt fish." It just does not work that way, and I hope that the new marketing organization depends on something core, sor.~ething far more efficient than just a trade c:e>rnmission or something of that sort in the markets.

It will have to be done by experienced people who have dealt with these people over the years. Newfoundl;md is not alo(le in the marketinr: of fish. This is obvious. They are suppliers in many, "'any other countries and they are a; .. ·are and have been trained over the yc.1rs, ilnd they nre experienced in the fish business to all the tricks of the trade. Not.~ believe r.:e · there is nothing in the marketing of wheat in C.:mada, or any other product, butter, cheese, eggs or what have you that nccd5 so u:uch experienc2 a:1d so much knowledge as does the proper marketing of salt fish.

Because, you arc dealing with people of many nationalities, many different char;.:;cteristics, .101d n:any different t--ays of doing business. I he>pe, sincerely ;wpc, tl1at the experic:1ccd .:1en ..,ho have worked in this either in !~Ai-L\. or othend:;e will be consulted and t!leir experience used to the benefit of this ore.1nizatio:-.. 1877

The great criticism, it was always a great political criticism of :iAFEL w~s the $10,000 menbcrs;lip fee. This w~s al~-1ays said to oc some­ thing that barred the ordin.:Jry fis[w·rnan frOl1 getting into ~lAFL:L, and it t.·as laughed at and critizerl to the point that tllis h'.:J~ a \'ealthy rn.""\n 's organization anti that tile fishermen diJ not st:m;l a ch<!nce. llccausc, here were the al!:dghty people of money controlling tl1ings to the detriment of the fishermen. Now the true story hchinJ that was this, that ~AFEL ~:hen it was set up and started had no capitRl.

It had mc~bers, sofue with money and a lot vithout any coney, but it did -want to form an organization. In order to have an organization that could function properly it needed capital. It asked aJ.l members to contribute $10,000. as a me!!.ber.shir> fee. At that time I think there vas something like thirty-five rr.embers joined and the total capital of the company -was $350,000. On today's st;:mdards that is not a very, very large capital amount.

One thing which I do not think either the fishermen or a lot of people who critized XAFEL realized, what effect that had, because up to that point people ~·ould ship fish to the markets and they Hould wa:i:: months and r.onths and months, and sometines as lon~ .JS one year to get paid for it, They waited for their -money ar1d they ke;>t their creditors waiting and as the Minister just said, they ,,:ere literally broke for a long, long til':'.e. l;<hcn NAFEL set up this fund and held back certain a~ounts of the procee~s, it meant that: those who shipped fish got paid just about the next day.

Things were organized very \·fell indeed, and the !!'Oney ca,..>! to the people who shi!'ped fish i=ediately it 11as shipped. Although ilAFEL itself may n~t have been paid for many, many months after that, This me;:.nt that the mon~y, the proc~cds from the fish, went into the hands of the merchant, they .,;ere able to pay their m·m fis!l;?rr. .en, and the fishermen themselves benefited because they did not have to \:alt. I could never understand vily this rcer.1bership fee \.'as always criticized, anJ held up as being soccthing sc:mdalous.

It provided the workin~ capital for an effecient company. :low also th~re was a further safeguard in that and 1 saw it happen on one or t-wo occasions. Groups of srn~ll ~crchants or people -who were literally very close to fishermen, C•)uld thcr:~selv~s band together in a group and selecti!lg one of them, perhaps a rr.orc pror.:inent member as a person 1S78

to represent them, they could band together and get into NXFEL by putting up this !lloney. There was no ri!ul barrier to it, there could be ten or t\.lenty get together if they wanted to and come on in as a member. Nobody in rr.y time in NAFEL, no offlcial or officer of N:.rEL, or any of the staff ever disagreed uith such a procedure. This thing was thrown completely out'.of contc:{t at the tim!!. It was not just a bunch of money grabbers aucl people 1-'ho had all the funds in the world trying to keep the others underfoot. Mr.

Speaker: I could go on for lens;th having kno"l.-n the fish b'usiness from the time that the square-s teraec! Danish .hanluood vcssels cone out with salt and 5f'J~~-iS in the sprin~ 2nd u.:J.it~<l all Sl!mrncr in oDr harbours to pick up the fish and take it hock to m~rket. I remember these days very cle~rly indeed.

Right up to the tine on one occasion my last el..-perience in the fish business 1·!<15 that I e~..:rorti!J i•• c:.~c single vessel from une port :;;::1rc fish in tvo d.:>ys th.:;.n w.:s cdug:•t in tL;<t particular <!-cea which was a large fish prouucing area, I eJ..ported F\;:Jre un tho~e t~o· o d.:.ys in_..that one v~ssel than ;:as ca\lght f~r the ~:1olc sc.~son of 19,):!-69 !n t;-,nt area. !hat is a pretty cl-ear in•licatio;} of ho~o.• t:•e fishery has s~runk. And how the salt -fishery tws diminished ov.;,r the J1t!;lrs. ,\t that ti·n..; Hr.

Speaker, there ,.-ere 200, JOG, 4:'10 men e:nployeJ. ~~vt at bfg salaries, but at comparable sa.laries in those clays. Everyt:Jing was comparable. Now we hear of great industries corning to ::ewfoundland a·t a cost of $150 million which mc;y employ 30J or ~00 rocn. In t:1ose days, o.~n withot•t approac!li:'t; Govermr.~nt for a cent, r.:cn who 'nJ c·•eryt:linr, at ri$k, a:d their day t.:- chy bread and butter 1ras out on credit, er.ll)laycl! .1:JO .1nc.! .'.Q:; ~ten ao1J so~.1ctir.:es m.any more and manilgeu to keep tl1e settlcr.·ent,; gnit;;:;. li<w 'IJ<lS tltnt ,l,,n.~?

It was done on t:d5 product call~d ~:11 t codflsd, "-',u.:.t I think is a pr<';1nct that has h.'lrl r;ore ."lilllse, J;~nr<: said ai..'Jut !t, ;;nd r.•)re ,~:til abont t;l~ p"cr>ple who h:muleu it than anythin~ else in ti1e hist0r~• <'f ;:"t•f.:v1dl;:;,,1. I hope tl1::1t this salt codfish l:'arketinh orr.a,liz<lti,,n '-1111 result in the comrlete elimin:1tion of this do<.'!lcryini- nr dc~ra,lin~ of our 01.-n indus::ry ;.md \dll brin-; it up on a level s<> rhal, nr>t ""'-l" r:lt0se t1l1o h.;.ndle the fish, the exporters and so on, and ~hose ~o.-ho h::mdlc .it fran the flshernen 1879

April ' 13, 1970, Page 4, Tape 424 -- apb but the fishermen themselves, can take pride in the fact, that at ~ast they are part of a worthwhile, viable and very necessary industry. MR. DA{ffi: I just ~ant to. refer a few words to .this Bill in passing.· My particular district has been very active in th~ fishing industry and I can say to the minister that the people of, particularly in Port de Grave are eagerly looking forward to the new functions of the Codfish Marketing Board, and they are particularly pleased by the emphasis that are going to be made ,on the quality of fish to be produced.

The people of Port de Grave have been dmm through the years, producing a very high quality fish and I arn sure that they will be further encouraged to'know that emphasis are going to be made in this regard. I would like to associate myself as well with the support of this Bill, knowing full well that the fishermen will be pleased to know that it is the intention of the Board to try as far as possible to indicate prices to be paid in advance of the fishing season.

They have been looking forward to this for many years, and they look back to the days of Commission when they knew in advance just what they would receive for their fish. I a::t _sure the passage of this Bill and the setting of this Fisn Marketing Board will further renew the confidence of the fishermen of Port de Grave with this ancient and local industry. Thev wish fo- ••••.•..•.•••• 1880

Apr11 ~jth, 1~/U Tape 425 JM - l MR. DAllE: vish to essure the ~inister, Ye wish to assure those who will be associated vith this Fish }farketing Board that th.ey will be tlOSt happy to work with them and co-operate with them fully to ~ke sure that it will be the success that ve all intend it to be.

They have been very progressive at Port de Crave in adopting new methods in the inshore fisherY.· I think they were one of the first to adopt the long liner type boats, they are now adopting their o~·m freezing facilities there to provide their o~~ bait and a local fisheru3n of Port de Grave is inve;;tigating,at his own expense, the possibility of drying hts o~~ fish and this will add to his income. So, Hr. Speaker, in these few remarks I vish to associate myself on behalf of the fishermen of Port de Grave my support for this Bill. Th .. :mk you: MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to have a few words on this Salt Fish Marketing Act. Although I do not believe, . Mr. Speaker,. there are any fishe~en in the district I represent at the moment, or at lea~t not more than three or four, I am not speaking indeed with reference to my district, but anyo~e interested in Newfoundland must be interested in the fishery.

Any po!it!c~n, of course, must be interested in the fishery because, as it has been pointed out in this House earlier in the session, there are, I think, someone sa!d, twenty-eight or thirty districts that arc still intir.~tely connectcJ ~!th the fishery in Newfoundland, Y.r. Speaker. This is a matter that I do not imagine the Covern~ent forgets. And I assu"'e that anyone else -ho is interested in politics would not forget it either. Now, Mr.

Speaker, as far as this Bill is concerned it is welcomed by everyone, I think, in Newfoundland (at least I have not heard more than one dissenter, I think I have heard one dissenter) as being a great step forw~rd. Well, Hr. Speaker, this legislation i:lnd the Salt Fish }!arketing Board itself, of course, are as yet unproven. The ~arliament of Canada and this !!ous~ toJay are being asked to provide the machinery to set up the Salt Fish ~rkcting Corporation. The Parliament of Canada deals with matters of the expor~ tra3e or in the provincial trade.

This House deals with matters of intra-provincial trade in goods, I-N-T-R-A, Hr. Spe:1ker • you know the >:ord. The Hon. Minister of Health has much to teach me, Mr. Speaker, and I a1:1 always an apt and ~illing pupil, at least willing an)rway. We have ~uch to learn on this side, Mr. Speaker, but we are not asha~ed to admit it. There 1801

April 13th, 1970 Tape 425 JM- 2 MR. CROSBIE: are ce~tain me~bers on the other side vho have le~rned a lot this session, Mr. Speaker, but they have not admitted it yet. They are even starting to learn the rules over there, that fourteen is a quorum for example and that if fourteen are not in the Chambers she adjoutns until 3;00 P.M. the next afternoon. They have learned that so veil, Mr. Speaker, that they are going to amend the rules now if they can. Nov to get back to the point about this Bill, Mr. Speaker, this is creating a board.;;- The' Parliament of·Canad;J.:-is giving -it certain powers.

This Legislature is going tc give it certain po~ers, matters within our provincial jurisdiction. But, Mr. Speaker, this only creates a Board. Whether or not this step forward is to be successful or not is going to depend upon the president or the managing agent of this Board and the directors and their staff. There is always a possibility of discal failure if they are not on their toes, Hr. Speaker, and if they do not start immediately by taking the right approach.

And one of the right approaches that those gentlemen are going to have to take is that this corporation is not to have anything ~hatso­ ever to do, Mr. Speaker, with politics, that it is not to be infl;enced in its decisions or actions at all by political consideration. That is the first decision they are- going to. have to make and I personally, Hr. Speaker, have r.o objection whatsoever to the Board being headed by a former politican as long as that politican remenbers he is a forner one and operates the Salt Fish Corporatiun in that way. I think that the Hon.

Hinister of Fisheries of Canada said that he saw no reason why politicans or retired politicans should not be on the Board and I agree with him. There are in politics able people. Just because one goes in politics, Mr. Speaker, does not mean to say that you are some kind of a lo:J wom that could not exist if you were not in politics. There are able men in politics in this Province as there ~re in every Province and I would say some very able men on both sides of this House, some misguided, others seeing things clearly and I will not even specify, Hr.

Speaker, who is who but there are able men and the gentleMan who has been mentioned as a possibility to be appointed president of this Board is one that 1 personally have a great deal of respect for and I feel that he is the kind of man who can do an excellent job with this Salt Marketing Corporation. But that gentleman or whoever the appointee is, Hr. Speaker, is going to have to remember 1882

April 13th, 1970 Ta:>e 425 JM- 3 HR. CROSBIE: fhil"t first ot all ne ,and principally he, .Ll> go .in~ to i1avo:: tu !>"'~ tl-..a .;;G1>ff.!.:;;c.:: of the fishermen of Newfoundland. That is the first thing that he and the Board are going to have to do, is to get their confidence, show them that this.is for real, show thcrn that this Board is to be operated for their benefit, show them .- that political considerations have nothing to do with any decisions the Board makes. The right atmosphere has first to be established,. Mr.

Speaker, and I do not doubt that the gentleman that has been nentioned will do that and he will certainly have our support as long as he docs, wherever that is requ~red. Now, Mr. Speaker, this Board is going to control what happens to the salt fish production of this Province, whether it is for sale, for export, to the Mainland or even -if it is consumed within Newfoundland under the Sill that is nov before the House. They are going to control it, they are going to have a tremendous amount of work to do once they are appointed because it is now almost the middle of April and they are not appointed yet.

When the directors, the chairman, and the president are appointed they have to get staff, they have to decide who to hire, they have to put people out in the ma>kets. Perhaps some- body is doing that no~, some agency of the Government is already doing that, we hope so. They have ~o tell the fish~rm~n ~h~t :he price, what the ster~ing price for fish is going to be for this year, give the~ a pretty quick indication of that. The season is getting well along. There are other proble~s I under- stand as to where fishermen are going to get their supplies, or ho~ they get credit for supplies.

I do not remember the hon. minister tovching on that vhen he irttroduced the Bill but when he closes the debate I wonder if he would say a few words on how that is going to be handled this season,if he knows? The ordinary fisherman, haw does he get credit this year for his fishery supplies, salt and the rest of it. All of these things are going to have to be done by the Board i~ediately and, Mr.

Speaker, I do not have any expert knowledge in the fishery, never been engaged in the fish business although my family were and I can remember thirty odd years ago just before World War 11 being d~~ in our premises on Water Street, at the time when ve vere Water 1803

April 13th, 1970 HR. CROSBIE: Tape 425 JM- 4 Street merchants but not the retail kind of merchants, Hr. Speaker, the kind of merchants that did something to build up NP.wfoundland, that took chances that vas not engaged in just buying and sellin~ dry ~oods, being down and seeing thousands of quintals of fish in our varehouses being culled and graded and so on for sale for export. But my facily, Mr. Speaker, after Werld War 11 were never engaged in that business, or shortly thereafter an~~ay went out of the salt fish business, in the early fifties, so I ao no expert at it. Mr.

Speaker, my first re<1L ' . •.!-· experience with it was when a Spanish fish buyer came to Newfoundland in 1965 looking to buy good quality salt fish here in Newfoundland. This vas a small fish importer in Spain, Mr. Speaker, who was so desperate to get a decent quality of salt fish that he came to Newfoundland not speaking a word of English to try and buy salt fish. He happened to fall into the bands of a scoundrel, that is how I came to know him. I will explain that in a moment, Be fell into the hands of a scoundrel, Mr.

Speaker, who atte.::pted to take him to the cleaners; this particular individual speaking Spanish and supposed to be an Honourary Consul of Spain here in N~~foundland. That is bow I met the gentleman. He came to me for legal.~dvice. He was afterwards vindicated. He vas arrested under our laws as an absconding debtor, unjustly and untruly. He was put under arrest as he vas to leave Newfoundla~d to go to Spain, as an absconding debtor, alleged to ove the Honoury Vice-Council of Spain some thirty odd thousand dollars.

We later took the catter to court and the client I speak of was completely vindicated and j~~tified, Mr. ~~eaker. But the amazing thing about 1884

'Iape no. 426, Page 1 April 13, 1970 anything allout this. What struck ~e is amazing. Here was Newfoundland, supposed to have salt fish to sell and here was a merchant co~ng to Newfoundland from Spain ~ho could not speak a word of Er.glish, because he was so desperate to get a decent quality of salt fish for his business. That struck me as extremely peculiar. In any ··event, Hr.

Speaker, because of the association I had with them, I tried to help them in that endeavour for two or three years, while he was buying fish here in Newfoundland,.and my experience with that gentle!l'.an convinced I!!e that the system under \Jhich we , were operating and still are •.mtil this legislation beco:::oes in effect was absolutely hopeless. The gentlet:an' s nar.:e was Perez. - he could not buy, Mr. Speaker, a quintal of decent quality light,salted,dried fish for Spain just about no' matter -what price he offered for it. It did not matter ~hat price he offered for that kind of fish, he could not_get it.

Why not? Because the fishermen who had the good quality fish l-TOuld say to hlm-,- '-will you take the rest of my fishl He would have a lot of other fish, which would not be the samP. high quality - Spanish cure. Because as the minister me~tioned, we have the system of tile "tal. qual." The fishe=-an \.'ould sell all his fish tw matter how poor or ho., good it was, at the same price, and if they sold their good quality fish to Perez.- at a terrific price, the other merchan~s would not take the rest of their fish. He had a hard job to buy it ar.d he ~ad a tre~r.dous nucbcr of difficulties.

He was also in competition with NAFEL or with the agents that NAFrL had in Spain who did all they could to do him in, because he was over here raising the prices. That was my limited experience vith the salt fish business, Nr. Spea1~er and that experience .. ·as enough to show that we would have no salt fish business left in Newfoundland in a fev years time, if so~ething was not done to change it and that is what this board is _supposed to be setting out to do.

As the min~er mentioned, you must establish a system of paying a IIIUCh better price for the higher quality fish to encourage the fishermen to produce the higher quality fish. Then you have to h~lp show them how to produce the higher quality fish. But you must give them enough incentive to make in worth his while or his farrilies while to produce that quality of fish. Another experience, }(r. Speaker, that showed me how far back in the dark ages we were, I ~entioned in this House, earli~r this session, ~as an 1885 • 1

; .. experience in Labrador South ·.~ere the fishenr.en of L'Anse au Loup, I think it vas or it eight have been L'Anse au Eclair, told me tast sur.mer ana this was in August that they did not know what price they were going to be paid for their fish then; that tl1ey \o.'ould no~ know until October; ·that they did not kno>~ what price they .... ·ere paying ,for twine; they did not know what price they were paying for salt, they did not what price they were paying for groceries do~~ in labrador South in August and that they would not knol.' vhat those prices 'f..'ere until October or Novel!'.ber, when the local ~rchant or ~T.oever they dealt with ~ould settle up 'f..'!th them.

I mean I had heard of that certainly as being the system in Newfoundland f!fty or hundred years ago, but I had not realized, Nr. Speaker, that it still remains true in certain parts of the Province. They were co~pletely at the ~rcy of the people who were buying their salt fish and did not even kno01 what prices they were being charged for the goods they Yere getting from them on credit during the season. Well you only need to state that, Mr. Speaker, to have proved imnediately the need for a public salt fish develop~ent corporation that will change all this.

We hope . that that is ~11at the corporation is going to do. I think, }~. Speaker, that the corporation nas to get the confidence of the fishe~en as I have said, and I believe that the corpor~tion has to treat fairly those who are left in the salt fish business, when it co~~ences. It has to decide whose pre=dses they are going to use in the future and whose premises they are not soing to use. I have seen this question r~ised and I wonder, if the ~inister vculd deal Yith it.

What ~.'ill be the situation if there are certain preclses now used in the salt fish industry or business that the board does not want to use, does~eor want to rent the premises and it does not want to use the people involved as their agents or in connection with any business of the board? If there are any such pre~ses or facilities like that, ~hat vill happen to them, vill there be any conpensation paid the owners, if they had been actively used in the salt fish business up to the time the board takes over and so on? If the ninister could give us some inforcation on that, I would appreciate it.

I think the board has to treat those people who are left in the business,at the ti~e the board starts, fairly in connection with their precises, or any use that th~ board ~~y have vith the~ or for them. ThAt 1B8G :

beinr, done, Mr. Speaker, that being done, then the board has been set up for the benefit of the fishet""r.".en cf l\evfoundland._ __ l am<:.f"ol:~(!ttinp, other provinces, because ve are concerned with the f1shermen of Newfounrlland. The board is going to have to re~e~ber that any unnccc~nary P.<~cn~cs o~ any unnecessary operating costs are eoing to reduce the incore~ that the board has left at the end of the season, uhich I undcrztand, m:c St::'r-~ccd to pay over to the fishe~en as a suppleMent to the price that they announced at the be~inning of the season. In other uords, as I l!!!dcrsta!'_-i it, 1-!r.

Speaker, the b!lard_scts e price at the start of the scc!:'on. If t!~c ' board sells the fish for a better price, the marl~et 'f_s ovcrzc<'s ro~d t!~e board anticipated or its inco:::e is greater at the end of the sc:::::cn, the net profit the board doas not requ_!re is to be p::!id to the fi!:hc::::c:!:!. a!l an increase in price at the end of the season.

That being so, the fich~~~cn of Newfoundland tJill be quite justified in not forgivit'!B t~c salt cod f:!ch develop~ent corporation, if it wastes one red cent; if it has cnc pcr~cn on the pzyroll r:ore than it shouJd have; if it has one agent ~ore t~~n it should have; if it rents ~~re pre~~ses than it should rent p:::rt!cular!y for any wzong reasons, the fishermen of Ne\·Jfol!ndland -Hill be qutte j~::tif'icd in taking that out on the salt fish development corporL'-tion, bE:::"'~:sc, l~":'. Src~':cr, it lo:'ill be thefr tooney that the board votold be ~:.:>.stj~~. if it c!~cs t'h<tt:.

The minister says that the purpose of this boa!--d is to ·i~rprC'I,-e the fisheL!!Ien's income and his lot in life, and we all hope t~at t'his will be done. By the way, Hr. ~peaker, I forgot, when I stm:ted, th:n~::h I do not think I have been critical in any event to con!jr;:J.tuJ.ate the Govern.""ent on this step for.;a::d, and I thin!• it is only fair to ac-::::ec that the Govern~ent have been pressing thi!l ~3tter, as the ~in!ztc= ~~~t!oned since 1963, our Govern~z~t and the present p~ssace by the feC.c=al p~~licc2nt of this legislation, the Govern~~nt can take credit for that.

I ~o ~ure tha Govern~nt: had the pressure on for that to h.:lppen. I thin!t \le shculd <:lea make note, Mr. Speaker, ~of the present Federal }1inister of Fisheries, ~:r. Jack Davis who as far as I can see is the first Fed~ral }!inister of Ficherfes we ever had who has got very ~uch on the ball or who ever did very ~uch for Newfoundland or whoever conc8rncd hii:'sclf very ~uch about Ncufoundl<:md, ard. he is certainly to be congratulated. In the seal fish(!ry, he is ecalins ~nth an aroused, hysterical, 1.:orld public opinicn a;'ld the p::-ccct~•c on th~ I".i!"Licter is 1D07 ,, ..

J.pril 13, 1970 Tape no. 426 Page 4 terrific, the pressure on the ' Ca~dian Government is terrific, and 1 vould say that Hr. Davis is standing up to treli'..endous pressure nov. just to prevent the whole thing being abolished one hundred per cent. So even, if he makes the odd slip with respect to the seal fishery, he can hardly be blamed, M+. Speaker, I would sa1. Because there is nothinn that can arouse the public more than the sight of .son:.e poor .. little anirn.:~l getting banged on the head.

We all remer..1bcr, Pz-esidcnt JC1hns0n, om:· fo~r President Johnson, holding his Beagles up by the p:!rs. l-!c1.1 I ~:c-u1.d say, ~. Speaker, that is the real reason why liedid not run again in 1~6D. It was not the Viet Nam War at all. He knev that vhen the dcr, lovez-::; saw him holding his Beagles up by the ears, he had it. The sac~ thing would apply to anyone of us, Mr. Speaker, who tried to run on the Mainland, if a picture vas ever taken of us out hitting a seal pup on the head. We vculd net have a hope. Now, Ne\lfoundland, I think, 'I.'O~.d still survive.

MR. ~mRPHY: None of the merebers on the other side would be cruel to each other. MR. GROSBIE: I see soce signs that t~ere is a little cha8rin occ~sionally on the other side of the House. I have not s~en any vavez yet. The bon. me~Der will be relievedto know that I have not seen any vaven going UP. and down in-the air, but I have seen a fev other things that someti~es can amuse 'one. But to get back to the subject of the Bill, Hr. Chair=n. Mr. Speaker, I am sorry. 1 keep calling the hon. gentleman, Mr. Chairman. I also thiri that we ~~uld cention the Newfoundl~nd Federation of Fishermen, Mr.

Speaker, who have a very active interest in this piece of legislation and Hr. Pat Antle 1888

MR. CROSBIE: Pat An::le who I understand has co-operated all along the way. He may be an obstacle in certni!J. .. ·~·ays, but generally speaking apart from the personnel of a Director, the corporation, I understand the Federation of Fishermen has supported this legislation, Federally all the way. And I do not doubt, Hr. Speaker, that the federation will continue to as long ·ns political influences are kept out of the new Splt fish d~vclopment corporation. Well, whoever takes over this corporation then Hr.

Speaker h<!s a great job to do for Nevfoundland, a lot will be expected of nim, a lot of people \Jill be watching him, tho?. indu.stry that l.'as the main stay of this Province for sozr.e ,400 years, will be in his hands. 1-lhich also brings roe to SOl:Jething, ~h:l.ch I will be interested to have the ninister's comment en, and that is ho;; this salt fish ~arketing corporation is going to relate to our fresh frozen fish industry. Now I know it has no control over it, the Bill says,salt fish.

But they are going to be in co~petition, as I see it, fine fish, the fresh frozen fish industry is going to "Want our fishen-:en to reJ 1 their fish fresh to the fish plants. ,\nd the salt fish marketing corporation, of course 1 do not know whether it 'Will vant to or not, I would assume it ~ould want the fishermen to salt their fish, particularly good quality salted fish. And hopefully one of course would be corr.peting against the other, and it 1r.ay have a good eff~:t on prices that ?.ay.

I wonder would the minsiter co~ent as to whether the board will have to consider vhen it sets its prices at the start of the season, what the prices paid for fresh fish are? Because if the salt fish corporation sets them very ~uch lower, of course they ~ill get a lot less fish. ·And Hr. Speaker, Hhile on the su;,ject of fresh frozen fish industry, the ministen .mentioned the great icpr~vement that has come in the last two years, as a result of neasures taken by the Government of Canada, and the Goven1:nent of tlewfoundland, and I remember very ~ell \..'hen that crisis started in 1967, and the minister, }!r.

Speaker, was very cool, and did not get flustered, and his approach to it, and should ~e congcatulated for his efforts in that crisis, from 1967 to 1959. But, }!r. Speaker, I wonder, or what I suggest the-Government should consider is some kind of a mar!~eting arrangement for Xevfoundland for fresh frozen fish also, I would not hesitate to do it, if the studies indicated tone, this is the best thing to do, but 1 was not thinking of nationalization at the no'"ent, 1-fr.

Spe<lker, I 1.1as thintint; of this, that the Government, I will be interested in what the Minister of P.ealth is thinking about, when he cares to disclose it, Hr. SpeAker, or; all subjects. 1889 ... , .

I realize, Hr. Speaker, that the Government of Neo;.;foundland cannot control the inter-provincial or the international export of our fresh frozen fish. But, the facts are that the Government ~f Ne•.vfoundlnnd finances moot with of the fresh frozen fish companies,/three or four exceptions. Giving them loans or has guaranteed loans for them. And I wonder, Hr. Speaker, why \JC do not have some kind of a marketing orga~izatt"on._.I a;;~ particularly intere5t.ed in Newfoundland, in the marketing of fresh frozen fish?

And if our Govern:!lent took a firm stand on it, I cannot see any but the three companies uith "Whom ve have no financial connection at all, being able to object too much to it. It seems to n:e, that it would be r.uch more sensible to have one associntion of The Ne~•fcundland Fish Processors marl:eting all cur fresh frozen fi!:h up in the United States and elselJhere, the sar::e as they have in Dcn~ark, or Iceland, or Nor..,ay, in several of those countries, they had I think, t•~o marketing associations, in one or t~o others they just h~ve the one ~arketing assoc{ation.

And I think that we vould be much better of in Newfoundland, if Newfoundland companies, \.'hen the crisis did co;nc, He are not up cutting the prices on one another in the United States or else1-1here, But that is by the way, But I "Would like for the n:inister to say something on this s~bject of the relationship bet~een this corporation and the fresh fish business, the competitive aspect when he replies, I •,.;oulrl apprcc.":a~c' it ~lr. Speiker. In looking at the Bill, itself ~e are only on second reading, there are one or two questions that come to mind looking through it. I notice, Mr.

Speaker, the Lieutenant Governor in Council has the right to recorrne~d the names of persons for appointment as Director to ser~e on the B~ard of Directors of the Federal Salt Fish Harketing Corporation. I would su~gest, Hr. Speeker, and perhaps the Governl!'.ent has already done this, that they not fail to reco=end fisherrr .en the~selves. But, •,:e ha>e quite a feu able fishcrr.:en enacted in the Federation of Fishermen or other~ise who are good spc~kers and knowledgeable that could be appointed to that corporation.

And that th~t they should be represented on it, and no doubt the Govern~ent ~ill have as much in mind when they recommend the names of persons under

section 53. There is a question that comes: in mind vith connection of the detention of fish under

section 9, which '"'e ~o~ill deal Yith "When we go into co=ittec, but if an inspector seizes and retains cured fish, that he is give~ pm:er to do under . that section, if the person he seizes it frcm, is found to be innocent Mr. Speaker, but his fish has deterio,at~d or so~ething has happened to it !DDO

April 13th. 1970 Tap~ 427 :PK - 3 Mr.-C?osbie; while the Board has the fish, I wonder whether he is to be compensated in ·that event? It is so~ething that should be considered. There is an objectionable section, I think, Hr. Speaker,

Section 18(c). Of course that will co~e before committee of the House. But the principle of it is objectionable. Under

Section 18, which deals with regulations, the Lieutenant Governor in Council, Hr. Speaker, can exempt from the application of all or any of the provisions of this Act, either conditionally or unconditionally, and either in general te~s or for a specified period ~ny part of the Province, any transaction, person or class of transactions or persons, or any class of cured fish or any by-product of fish curing. Now, Nr.

Speaker, that seems to be very bread, in othcr.:ords we can pass this iegislation, the Lieutenant Governor can completelr gut the legislation by exempting generally a~l these matte:::s from the operation of the Act. I think that the hon. }!in site r should explain '"hy, such a tremendous delegation of power is necessary. .oi.nd

Section 23, Hr. Speaker, about conflict between the provisions of this Act, and other Acts, raises a question as to what clothe drafters have in mind, is. there sohle possibility that this Act is conflicting with other Provincial Legislation, becal!se

Section 23, I b"lieve is t:nUSl!al. So the !:!insiter rni;i:t deal ~;jth those when he replies, or when the legislation goes through corr~ittee. But, to sum up, Mr. Chairman, we are certainly going to support this Legislation, we congratulate the Governl'C!ent for the steps they have ta!cen to push this matter. And we are delighted to see that it is now going into effect, <.;e regarded to the first step, a tremendous amount is goin~ to depend u;,on the President and his Directors and the managef:!ent of the new corporation.

The eyes of the fishermen of Newfoundland will be on them in thei!" t<:sk, whether this is successful or not, depends on them. They must establish the right atmosphere immediately. So that they are trusted by the fishern.en, and the trade. Politics must not enter into it, they need ~n ablcd P:::esidcnt and staff • The man who has been mentioned, Hr. Speaker,as the possible President is acceptable to us, who know him, and who had the epericnce of working with him. If he gets that appointment we certainly wish him well, and if he does not get it then, we wish well who ever does get it. 18D1

April 13th., 1970 Tape no. ~28 Page 1 so to sum up then, !!r. Speaker, alot of expcct~ticn has been aroused and rightly so by the legislation. It is gain~ to be up to these people, when they are a;:Jpointed to realize it and ~:e hope that they do. t!R. SH . .\LLl.JOOD: Mr. Speaker, for twenty-six of our forty-0nc Hous~ of Asse!l'hly districts, this is one of the ~c;!>t important : piec-cs of legislation ever to cor-e before the House of Assembly in its long history; not the most important, but one of the most iMportant pieces of legislation, twenty-six _·of the forty-one districts.

These t~,·cnty-si>: arc Lnbr.<>.cor No!:th and Labrador Sout:t, White Bay North and '1-'hi te B<!y South, Green r.:.y, TuiJ li ngate, Fogo, Bonavista North and Bonavista South, Trini.ty North <'~<2 Trinity Sou:-':1, Bay de Verde, Port-dc-Grave, St. John's East, Fcrryland, SC. ~~ry's, Pleccntia East, Placentia I: est, Burin, Fortune Day, Herrni t'"r:e, Burrco-Laroile, Port au Port, Hu!7'1Jer Fest, St. Barbe South an::! St. B<1rbc ~~orth, tm~nty-si;::.

But, Sir, if this leP.islaticn is terribly important to these twanty-six districts, it is important also, but not nearly so much directly, in a direct ~ay to nine other districts; nanely, Lewisportc, Har~our Grace, Carbonear, Hr. Main, St. John's }/orth, S~. John's South, St. John's East (Extern), St. Georges or Bell Island, then St. Georges. ~!ow I am not absolutely c:e1:.ta~n, not being co~pletely clear in my mm ll'.ind as to the nature of the boundar/ separating the districts of St. John's E~st and St. John's East (Extern), as to which of these t~o has more fishin~ in it. I know that St.

John's East (Extern) has some, Flatrock and so on, Loggy Bay, Outer Cove, P.iddle Cove, Torbay and dotrn as far as Flat~ock that is all ih St. John's East (Extern). Not that there is a lot of fishing done in it now, but there is some. Bauline is in St. John's }!orth; Po\tch Co't'e and Bauline, St. Phillips, Broad Cove, these are in St. John's North. There is a little fishing done in Harbour Grace and a little fishing done in St. John's East (Extern). Very little done in Bell Island. Very little done in St. Georees. Very little done in Carbonear. Very little done in Hr. ¥.ain. Very little done in St.

John's South or St. John's North and very little done in Lewisporte. It is rather extraordinary that in our Province today, there are nine different constituencies represented in this F.ouse where very little salt cod fisi::Ling is done anyr~ore, on this Island of Nevfoundland. It is quite extraordinary. But, Sir, if that is cxtreordinary 18D2 J-:. 1

April 13th., 1970 Tape no. 428 Page 2 that there are nine where very little fishing is done, it is even more rell'.arkable that there are six districts where none is done; nancly Labrador West, Grand Falls, Gander, St. John 1 9 West, St. John's Centre and Hut:lber East, six districts of our forty-one ,.;here salt cod fish is just not done, not carried on. That makes fifteen districts vherc either none is done or very little.

Then a2ain, I think, it is a very ,good indication of the sociological revolution that has occt~rrcd and continues ro occur in this Province; nevertheless, Sir, thcre:-.are tt:enty­ six districts left in Newfoundland vhere fishing is of the ut~st im~ortance and for vhom a·nd to whom this legislation today is one of the east it::portant pieces of la~T~king ever to co~e before this Chamber. I am immensely proud of it and ! take i~znse personal satisfaction out of it.

I seem somehow in my life, in my public: life to begin tooearly sometimes or what appears to be too early to get so~e reform brought about, or some important accomplishment or some vital development. It took eleven or twelve years to get Churchill Falls going. That is a long time. That is a long ti~e !~any man's life. It took ho~ many yeurs to get a t~ird paper mill going, alwost as many. It took how many years to get an oil refinery going, years and years and year~.

It h3s taken a good many years to reach today, to come to now, to co~e to this affair this afternoon where our Hinister of Fisheries introduces le?.islation for ~o.·hat purpose? For ~he purpo~e of setting up a salt cod fish corporation, r.o. For the purpose of setting up a salt cod fish v4rketing board, no, because these are being set up by legislation of the Parlia~ent of Canada. This le~islation today is to cot:tplete the legislation of the Parliament of Conada, because vithout this legislation, the lepislation of the Parliament of Canada would be wasted words, just a scrap of paper.

The fact of the rratter is that Fisheries under ~he constitution of Canada are under two jurisdictions, under the jurisdiction of .the Parlia~ent of Canada. Tne House of Cow~ns and the Senate may make laws concerning the Fisher:!.es of Can;:;.da and the lev,islaturcs of the provinces 18£,3

April 13th., 1970 Tape no. 428 Page 3 MaY make laws vith respect to the Fisheries. So it is a divided jurisdiction, both have authority, both can make laws, but they cannot both =ke the sar.e laws. They cannot both n3ke law~ in the sa~e way dealing with exactly the same matters. In the constitution of Canada, fish in the water is entirely a Federal responsibility, Federal jurisdiction. "Fish qua Fish" is the term. 'Fish as fish, in the water is entirely authority, a federal responsibility because, of course, Federal jurisdiction.

That is why it is, that it is the Parliament of Canada that can pass laws to give ~he Govern~nt of Canada, the Canadian Minister of Fisheries the right to say where you may wish in the water? How you mey fish? ~~en you may fish1 w~at kind of gear you may use? What size mesh it shall be and so on and so on, because fish as fish is a Federal matter, coming under the laws of the Parlia~ent of Canada and carried out by the Gover~ent of Canada. Once that fish co~es ashore, once it eomes into dry land, it ceases to be the responsibillty of the Parliament or the Government of Canada.

It tl1er. co~es under this House, if it is this Provir.ce. This House bas-the right to pass laws covering fish once the fish comes ashore, once it comes on dry land, because then it becomes property a~d property and in eivil rights are Provincial jurisdiction • Once that fish is packed and eA~orted to another Province, it then enters inter-provincial trade; it comes under the Parliament of Canada a~ain. Once it is exported out of Canada altogether and goes into foreign markets, again as foreign trade, it comes under the Parlia~ent of Canada. So you see the history of the fish.

In the water, it comes under the laws of Canada. On the dry land it co~s under the la~s of the House of Assembly and ~hen it is exported out of the Province, it comes once again under the laws of Canada. So when the Parlia~ent of Canada passes a law to set up a salt cod fish corporation, as they have done, and a law to set up a salt cod fish ~2rketing board, as they have done, when they have done that, they have only gone so far. If they stop there or no one else moves, if that is all that is done, it is not worth 1894

April 13th., 1970 Tape no. 428 Page 4 tbe paper tl!at it is vritten on. !hat is why ~e ~ust pass this legislation here to.day; to give the :IU.nist:er of Fisheries of this ~rnment, of the Govet;JW.ent: of Newfoun.dland '"this House is asked to give our Minister of Fisheries, Newfoundland's Minister of Fisheries authority to do certain things and what are these thi.ngs?

These things are in the fiBt pla~e to appoint tha.t Federal board, that Federal salt cod 'fish corporation as the agent of the Newfoundland Government; to appoint the salt cod fish marketing board, the 111arket1ng board of the Newfoundland C>overnznent, although it is a Fedez:al board. Now this often happens, for example. Mr. Speaker, I ~ill give you a good example. We 18D5

Ye have a £ishermen's loan Board of this Government, this Govet~ment set it up. This Governcent appointed it, untler la>1s thzt this House of As1;en'Jly passed. And this Fishermen's Loan Board lends ~cney to fishennen to buy boats and gear dnd engines and so on, and so on. The Govcr:-~ment of Canada decided in their Wisdom to get authority from the farlia~cnt of ~anada and they did get it, to lend Doney to fishermen for boats and engines and gear.

But instead of the Government of Canada setting up a board to lend money to the fishermen in NeYfoundland they appointed the Ne•..tfoundland Loan Board, Fisheries Loan Board, a~ their board, so the money that the Go~~rnment of Canada lends to Newfound- land fishermen is lent to them throuzh the ~e~fcundland board, appointed by the Ne.,foundland Govern~ent under authority of a law passed by this House.

Now in the same way exactly, under a law passed by the Parli~ent of Canada, the Government of Canada is setting up a marketing board for salt cod, And the Ne>1foundland Governc.ent, if this law ?asses this House, as I imagine it ~..-1.11 the Newfoundland Government 1 • .'111 then have authority to appoint the fedcrdl board to represent Newfoundland in the marketing of salt cod. That is what this Bill is all about today.

You may say well if that is so,what about the Act already on our statute book~, passed in Newfoundland, p~~sed in this P.ouse ~o~e six years, was it six years 230 1964J 1963 or 1964, f.n anticipation of this very legislation that has just passed the Parliament of Canada, p,iving the Government of Canada the right to set up this marketing board. In antici?ation of this very legislation that has just passed the Parliament of Canada, givine the Govcrnreent of Canada the right to set U? this marketing board. In anticip~tton of that, that only came a few weeks ago.

In anticipation six years before that was done this House vas asked by this r~vernment to pass a lav along the sa~e lines exactly as this very Bill that is before the House today. Well if that, if that were done, and it was done alright, and if it passed and bec:a~e law, and it certainly did, it is on the statute books today, wny then is the Government asking the House to pass this Bill into law, because Sir, this Bill is really onlv an a~plification of the statute that we passed some six vears afo. The statute l."e passe-l so;ne six years aRc had to be passed 18!)6 . \

in anticipation of the federal .•ct whic~ h~d not been passed six years aeo, '-las not passed six veeks ago, it ~1as only pnssed about six days ago. So we could not frame our Bill, our Law six years ago, to fit perfectly into the Canadian law which have just been passed. So the purpose of this present Bill is to improve on the law we passed six ye~rs ago and make it fit rr.ore precisely, to meet the changed situation.

Nov one thing I like enorr. .ously ahout it,is the fact that the greatest injustice, and perhaps injustice is the '1-ll:on?- "Word hecausc injustice presupposes ~hat the one who is treated unjustly is treated by someone unjustly that the one '-lho meets out the treatment to someone is deliberately being unjust. And this may be this i~ not a matter of justice at all it is just a matter c i' perhaps of misfortune. But the misfortune in our fishing industry has al~o.>ays been this: That a poor angishore ca'!!\c along to a merchant, a supply merchant in the sprinf, of the year.

A long winter has ?as sed, the shm~' s are going, the ice is m~lting, the ice is coming out a bit more, it h.:.s been a long and misera~le winter. Now this has gone on for hundreds af .. ;•ears. And the poor angishore comes along to the local merchant, to whom, to this local fisherman this ~erchant ~s almost Cod. P.e pives jobs, he ~ives supplies, therefore he ~1ves life, he is almost the life-piver. And that mercha~t ~ay himself be is~olvent. He may be as bro; :c as ever anyone was, ?e may be hanging on hy his bare finr.er-nails.

Rut the ooor an ~ ishore of a fisherRan co~es to him and asks to be outfitted. ~o~ if he is not outfitted on credit he perishes. He and his family go hungry. The only hon2 he has had on this earth h3s been to get some merchant to outfit him on credit. And do you think he • .. mule be so stupid, do you think that that fis:,.~nr.an would be so ignorant, so lackin!t in information as to ask that merchant Hhom he has now approached in fe:1r and tr.=nblin~ looking for <~n outfit to be grubstaked, to be outfitted for the season so they could catch a bit of fish.

To ask h!m about the price of fish, uell never "'as there so innocent a fisherman as that • in the spring of the year, to go raisin~ such an a':kt.:ard and embarrassin>'; question as that. tfuat price he is p,oin~ to g"lt for the fish

he may catch. God in Heaven ':."hat he wants is a bit of grub to C<>t and a bit of salt, and a bi.t of p,asoline vhen .the en~ines cane, and a pair of rubber boots, and may be a suit of oilskins, and a bit of food to put in his ho~e so he can get fishin~. Now he gets fishing, he brings the fish horne, he makes it, his wife used to help him make it, his children used to help in ye'"rs gone by, dot·m throur.h the centuries.

And ~:hen it ca..,e up in the fall of the year, settling up time, there have . been son?,s written about it, squarin~ up time, "~.·hen he ~ame up in the end of the year and the fishery was over and he delivered the last cod's tail, ('what he hed not sneaked out in the dar!~ to sot1c ----) Except for wh.:;:t he had shinped to those,in the fall of the y!=ar he shipped the last fish he had to the merchant and then settlin~ "!' time came. Then for the first ti:>1e, for the fir:;t time, he probahlv le.arned the 11rice that he vas to get for the fish that tms the result of .a su!'l..~cr' s and fall's labour.

That went on for centuries, that is goinp, on now, It went on last year. to some extent. But during the war 1.1hcn the c:orr:bined Food Boards of the l'nited States Government and the C.;;;nadian Government and the Netvfoundland Government got together and t!'.ore or less, commandeered "11 the food of' ~iorth k"lerica and set prices on the clifferent kinds of food, su,;ar ;:nd ~;heat and fish and what-have-you.

Then for the first time·, in almost 500 years of our history for the first time. a fisherl!lan before he produc-: ·•1 any fish, before he took a fish out of the ~o.·ater kne"W ···hat he was ~oing to get for that fish ~~hen he ~ot it and cured !t and ~elivered it to the merchant. It hapcened for a period of, I think, nay be three years, there is an old-time fisherman sitting in the stranp;er 's fallery and if he \]ill nod, Has it three years, \]as it two years, haw many yea-rs di<:: it last, '-'here the fishermen uere told in the S!'ring what they were ~oin~ to ~et~ Three years? Three years?

For three years in nearly 500 years it took a ~:orld l·!ar to do it. The fisherman were told what they 1.1ere going to ~et. That is a s.:lva~e situ:>tion·, I said, I started out by saying a great injustice, but injustice oresupooses that the !'1erchn:1ts were deliberately ~ithholdin~ the informntion. They had it and ~ould not r,ive dlt. I do not think that ':as it. I do not think they !:ad it. 1898

MR. S'L\LL'-'OOD: I do not think the merchants knev. Even after the merchants got organized in the K\'FEL, which in its way vas the greatest thinr, that ever happened in our history up to that time, to stabilize the marketing of fish. Even NAFEL would not know what they ~ere going to realize on the fish ~n the markets, until well up late in the year, sometimes not until the following year. So knowing themselves even under the NAFEL system, they could not very well inforc the fishermen.

And before the NAFEL system, before that came in, the ~erchants had no more motion than the man in the moon,of what prices they ~~re going to realize in the markets ship?ing the fish over to Oporto and Lisbon and ~alaga and Alicante, and all over the Mediterranean to Italy to Greece to Malta, and do~~ in the Caribbean and to Brazil, ship?ing it off on consignment. On consignment. Shipping it off no price, 'shipping it off to a broker, hoping the broker vould get the best possible price for it. The semi-perishable

article of food arriving in varm clit:~ates along the ~!edit terrane an Coast. I h;we been Uf' and dm."tl that eoast, I knov ~~at the clim~te is like, I know a little about salt eod, ~~d I know what had to happen. If a schooner load of fish two or three ~r four thousand quintals of fish were loaded in some Newfoundland ourport in Csrbonear a~d shipped off to the ~~diterrancan unsold, consigned to a brok~r, calli~g in to Gibralter on the way alon~ and gettir.g the latest orders from the owners of the fish back in Newfoundland. And telling them what seaport to go to.

And going in that seaport and unloadin?. that fish, consigned, unsold, consi~ned to a fish broker in that market, and then wondering what the claims were going to be because never was a cargo of fish ship?ed over there vithout claims bein~ made against it for bad Quality, whether the quality was ~ood or bad, the claims were made in any case and what CC'uld you do vhen r.:~e fish was over there, \."hen it was unloaded, when it was a semi-perishable

article and when it was in a hot climate. And when they buyer made claic.s a~ainst the fish, the quality of it, what could "70U do except settle and ~et the best you could. So perhaps the ~erchants are not to be blamed, but Sir whether they are or not, the fact is this. that this is one of the great reforms, because 1899

April 13, 1970 Tape li4J() PaJ;e 2 the general ~anager, the president and general manager of the salt codfish marketing board, vill come out ~ith a price for each v.rade early in the season before the fish is caught at all. Nov7 when he names that price and the fisherr.en deliver that fish they get tryat price. They may get more later on after the fish is sold and they realize on ~ it, and the settlin~ up is done in the markets, and if more money comes back that money goes to the fishermen.

And so what the fishermen get in the first place when he delivers his fish to the board, before he delivers it he knm·7S what he is going to get. There is a price dec:lared and that is a public price, and everybody knows ~hat it is and he receives that monev, that is only a dovnpayment. :A..'ld then if the market is all right and they do vell in the market, then an additional pa~ent will be made. Well Hr. Speaker, this is nothinf. ne•..r about that, except for salt cod. This ts the vay wheat is done.

This is exactly what happens to the wheat board, and this is ~hy s~e of us in Newfoundland have ~round our teeth in rage, and vith a sense of burning in1ustice, to see why our fishermen were kept in ignorance, and maybe a necessary ignorance of what ~hey were going to lE't f0r fish to see t~e wb~.:;t farr..ers of our sa.-.e country. This country of ours Canada, to see the '0.-t\eat farmers kno;..·in~ exactly what the:; were going to get for their ~heat.

A certain downpayment so much a bushel, and then later on a second payment and maybe finally a third and final payment for their vheat. wnile all that same tiMe our fishermen here were in complete ignorance, kept like little children to be ~een and not heard. Do not raise rude and awkward and e~barrassing questions about what price you are going to get for your fish. A very good reason because probably the merchants ther.selves did not know it. They were engaged mostly in a cut-throa~ competition where it was dog eat dog, and God take the hinder most. 'Well that is the great reform.

Arart from the matter of introduci.n~ into our salt fish industry modern merchandizing. They are not going to sell the fish, they are going to merchandize the fish. And anyone who knows 1900

Apri~ 13, 1970 Tape C430 Page 3 gt!cting out and peddling a thin~. farin~ a thing and ~erchandizing it. Merchandizing connotes orderly marketin~, orderly shipping, proper nackaging, proper business-like modern rnerch~ndizing techniques. This is what the salt codfish hoard will be doing, and the fishermen will find it to be a great blessing. There is some reference in the debate to the exceptions, the exemptions that the minister is authorized to authorize the hoard, to exemot certain types of fish from the ~orking of this marketing scheme. Todav Mr.

Speaker, I vas visited by three bnsiness men engaged in the business of packinp, and exporting salt codfish. ~~d they have worked up a fiew trade. They cut the salt cod in steaks, I suonose you would call it. And I beli.~\"e " :they are boned, very attractive looking and they are nut in cellophane oackages. They they are stapled together, and an attractive label is put on. On the one side in English, and on the rPvcrse. They packap,e it here and the label goes on like this.

On this side it is in En?.lish, and on that side it is a in Spanish, because that is where he shins it, the fish to Spanish-sneakin~ c:ountry which is in the Carih~ean. Bilingual codfish. ~:oH that fish is up a nice article. It is on the Southern Shore. The question is, ••auld it be ~cod or not for the ma.rketim; of that part~cular kind of fish, put UD in that particular way, in that particular package, with that particular lahel on it. h'ould it be good or not for that fish to .be ~::arketed by the board? Or >vould it he better for those who put it up to be left to their ovn devices.

I may say that the people who are doing it are not sure, which is the hetter thing to do, thev are not sure. But that can be settled. It can be settled bv discussion, by trial and error. They can try it, see if it works. Or thev can try marketin~ it this year themselves as they did last vear without the hoard. They may come to the board asking the board to come to their rescue. leave it, l