Volume XLI Wednesday Province of Newfoundland FORTY- FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND First Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush Number 12 14 June 1989

The House met at 2:00 p.m : MR. SPEAKER (Lush): OrdE!r, please~! On bE!half of hon. rrH'!rrtbl':~rs I would like to welcome to the galleries today thirty-one Grade Ull studE!nt:s fr·om St. Francis of Assisi School in Outer Cove with thetr tl':~achers, Ms DoreE!n McCrate and Mr. Gerald Rumsey. Also thirty ·--eight GraCE! U studc~nts fr·om St.. Pat 1 s Primary School 1.uith th(~ir teachE!rS, Mrs MacDonald and Mr. Baj]ote. On behalf of all hon. members tAJE! 1.uould l:ike l:o lAJPJ.colnt:• these st.udE!nts l·:o the galleries today. SOME liON, MEMB E 1\S: HE!ar, hear! Oral Questions MR.

SPEAKER: The hon : the Lr:~ad er of the Opposi U.on. MR . RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. Mr'. Speaker, rny question is to the Premier. In vie1.u of the fact that a cr-.i.sis exists in the~ NelAJfoundJ.and fishE!ry, pal~l:.icularly as it relates to the management of the Northern cod stocks, and in view of the fact that the management of trans-boundary stocks, particularly when those stocks are outside of the 200 mile zone, is of vital sign:ific'-~nCE! For the r'E!building of that stock, and :i.n v:iE!W of UH:!

Fact that Canada ought to bE! ur·ged to takE! a whole range of mana.gE!mE!nt options rE!1ating to the management of the NorthE•r ·n cod, including funct:i.onal E!Xtension of jurisdtction, can thE~ Premier tell the House what advice L583 June 14·, 1989 Vol X l..I his administration has provided to the federal government on that matter as it. relates to functional extension of jurisdiction? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I wlnotE! tiH! Pr'iiTif!

Minister, whE:\11 I occupied thE• position of Leader of lhe Oppos:it:ion, in Janaur·y, stating rny position at. thE! tjrnE'! !Ad t.h r'E!spect to the 1nal:tet~ and urg'ing the::! PI" i.me Minis t:er to becomE! pE• rso nal -.ly involved to deal with the uery s E:! r' i o u s pro b 1 P rn of For· e :i ~1 n ov(:!rfish:i.ng on the Nose and r.~ i l. of l:hE! Banks.

I IAJr'olE:• h:itn aga ::in :i. n FE! b r u a r· y l: o pInE! s s h L 111 a g a L n i .. o take the mat.ter very seriously and become personally involved, bE!causr:• I fE!J.t that that IAJ(:'IS t·.he only lAJay the matter would qc:!t. an adequate leveJ. of jnternationaJ attention. Now recently we saw that t:he Pr:irne M:i nistE•I" ha~; bHCOiriE ·! person<.~l.ly .invo1vl':~d. 11e IAidS in Europe rE!CE!ntly, hP rnet. u..J:i. Lh the Prime Minister· of Spain, hE:! has taken othE!r stE!pS 1.u:ith Lhe European Econo1nic Co111rnuni ty, and M r .

C r o s b i E! and M r . 5 :i d don havE' met with representatives of the Economic Cornmunjty to deal wj _th the same matter. Just this morning, as a matter of Fact, I wr·ol:e the PrimE! Minisl·.:E!r', again, to compliment the Prime Minister and his ministers for the steps that they have taken in what I beliE!Ve to bE! the r·-.ight direction in dealing with th:i s matter, and thE! ITIE!ans by which WE! can lnea11y soJ.ue this problem jn the long ter'tn, and l:he only 1neans by which, I think, :il:. can be ach:ievecl.

T a 1 so madE! c e r t a :in o l:. her sugg"•stions lo hjrn as Lo appro'-~ches that oughl :. i:o be takc!n, but I would consider it a discourtesy i:o him l:o 1nakc! these:• No. 12 R ~.)8 3

statements publicly ·in the Hciuse beforE! thE• PrimE! Minister· rE!ce:i.ved the letter. I only signed the 1E!'I::tt1r to thE! Prime M:in:ist.E•r Uds morning. MR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr·. Speaker, can l:he Pre1rr.ie1~ tell the House what advice his administrat::ion is pl~ovid'ing to the Governrnent. of Canada, and LAJhat a·l:tempts his adrninis{:rat:ion arE! trying to makE~ to have the Government of Canada explore, 'in all :its dEd_aiJ., a number of options, but in particular the option of funct:ionaJ. E!Xtension of jurisdiction?

MR. SPEAKER: ThE! hon. the Pr·em:ier. PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker. the leth~r I signed to the Prime MinistE!r this morning makes certain suggE!Stions, and I suppose you could say it gives certain advice. It requests the Prime MinistE!r to take CE!r·tain action, so I will not tell the HousE! this aftE!rnoon what IAJE> have done in that letter. It IAJould be a d i s c o u r t e s y t. o t h e P r i me Minister. After I am satisfied that he has had it, and had it for a rr-.:~asonable time~. I do not SE!e any problem with making public the statement that we made and the posi ti.on can bE! rE•vealE!d at that time. Ml~.

IUDEOUT: Mr·. Speakt~r. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leadr-.:H' of the LS84-June 14-, 1989 VoJ. XLI Opposition. Ml~. RIDEOU f: Mr. ~)pE!akE!I~. in viE!IAJ or LhE· fact thal: thE! hon. the PrE!rniE!I" hds Lold the House that hE! wrote the Prime Minis tor· in January, that l·w lAJI"cd:.(' the Prime Minister in February, leaving aside any letLors or advice that he has gi.ven Uw f'r·:LiflE! Minister today. could l:hli:! Pr'E!IIli.E!r tE!J.l the House whethE•r or not ~i.n previous correspondence to Lhe PrilflE!

M:lnistE!r hE· r'E!CCHnl·nended Lo the Prime Minister that the Go v e r n 111 e n t of C a n ad a c o n s ::i. cJ e r l. : .. , (' option of funcl:iona1 f~xl:en~;i.on of j u1~i.sd:i.cLi.on? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. l:.he PI"Om:lc:!r. PREMIER WELLS: I wilJ get copies of the Lwo lE!t.tE!rs. January and Febr·uary. I bel:l.E!VE!, ar'E! t:he dclt.es, alt.hou~Jh one of them 1nay havr-.:' boun eai'··ly Mar·ch, but :i.t seerns t:o rnl' that there were two leLters in the E!arJ.y par·t of t:h:i s Yf'!ar. OnE~ J know was January.

I w·Lll get thosE! l E! t t e r s and I LAr:i. l 1 makE' t. h urn pub1ic or table l:hern in th(~ Houst:• so that. E!XactJ.y what IAJas sa:.icl can be made known. SincE! !::hat tl.11H=· I haVE! had discussi.ons IAr:it:h M1~. Cl~osb.i.e and others al: Lhe feck!J"al levEd. The Minister· of F:i~;hE•I":ie~:. (Mr. Carter) has had discussions at thE! f E! dE! r a l l E! V e] IAI:i l:. h M I" . Siddon and others, and other representations have been rnade. Funct:1onaJ.

E!XtE!nS:.i.on oF jurisdici:ion: ThE=!re is sorrH:! p o s s i. b i l i t y t h a t: t h e Go v e r mn e n l o f Canada can rnaintai.n a pos.il:.i.on at :i nt('>rnat·.:i.ona1 J aiAJ Lhat. lAJh(:.rl:' l::hos E'! a r E! s t r· a d d 1 :i n g s i: o c k s l·: h 1:! adjoini.n~J statE! could have so1ne e1 b i l i l: y l: o c a u s e i I~ s j u r· i s cl .i. c l:. ·i, o n to bE! extE!ndE!d to manage t.he stocks outside the 200 mile No. 12 R t_)8 t).

l.i.rrrit. Ther'E! .is sorn~;:~ possibility that that could be done, but it tAJould have i:o bE! manag~:!d by the adjoining state in accordance with the Law of the Sea and provide for access to other states, not the E!Xclusive acCE!SS of Canada, would be the effect of such managernE!nt. That is one course i:hat could be follou1ed, and it :is a course that is likely to hi.~ve sucCE!SS or meet with success if you obtain an adequate level of international approval for that course in the first instance.

If Canada d€~cides to do that, or· take an E'!Xt:ens:i.on of j Ul"isdicl:.ion unilatE!rally, you L<.JOUld haVE! to ask yoursE!lf, 'ArE! you going to make mat:b.~rs bc'd:.lt:•l" or worSE!? Is Canada prE•parE!d to t a k e t: h E' s l:. t'!·p a n d d o t h i:l t. , a n d send out a navy to makE! surE! t:hat. Spain and Portugal, in particular. or any other country that decides to fish in that area, will not fish?' Are u.Je prepared t.o do that? Are we prE!pared to start a . war to do it? Because :·LntE!rnational law, as it exists at this rnornent, wouJd not. acknowledgE!

Canada's extension of juris diction beyond the 200 mile l.imit, and most major nations in the world would oppose it. So we have not recommended to the Government of Canada at this stage unilateraJ extension of Canada's jurisdiction. Matters may gEd: so despE!ral:c~ that Canada may have to try that at some stage. IF nothing can be achieved by any other means, maybe in desperation we may have to take that coursE!. But if and when we do. Canada better be prepared to fol J.ow up u.r.i th :L i: aftE! r shE! takes l:hat course.

It :is no good proclaiming E!XclusivE! j ur:i .sd:i_c Lion if they are not prepared lo enforce it: . So j t is a s Lep that you would take only if, as and whE!n you arE! pr·epared to do lAJhat is necessary to enforcE! it. L58S June 14 ·, 1989 Vol XLI . MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the rnernbE!r· for' HUinber ' East. MS VERGE : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I have a question for the Minister of FinancE! (Dr. K:itclwn), lAJho .i". not in his seat now. MR. DOYLE: He is right by the door . MS VERGE: But pei~haps hE!ar·inq rny question hr:• tAd ].] r E! turn l o h :i. s s E!i'd . .

I_ a~; L week in his Budget Speech Lhe Minister of Finance said, and 1 quote, '!"his Administ:rat ~ion is cornrnitted to thE! concept of E!quaJ pay for work of equal value and to the implementation of pay equity for wo111en in l:hE! publ'i.c secl·.·.or·.' I wotJld like to a.sk t.h,c• rn:in:Lst.PJ" now lAJhal: i·:hat co1nrrdUnent. lflt~ans. Is ::it. a com1n:it1nE!n'l.· Lo l:.he conCE!p-t. of E!qua1 pay for work of eqlJa1 value for the prJuate sector as well as the public s~;;,ct.or? Whal: is the rninJ.ster's adrn:in:.istr·aLion going to do to achi.E!VE! pay oqu.i.t:y J n thE! pr:i vate s E! c tor?

And w.i]] the goVE!rnmont legislate the princ.iple of pay equ.it:y? SOME HON. MEMBERS : -------·----- ------·--- Oh, oh! MR. RIDEOUT: There has got to be a caucus meeting here now, Sir. DR. KITCHEN : Mr· . Speaker. MR . ~;PEAKER: HlE! hon. l:he Minister of Findnce . DR. KITCHEN: No. 12 R ~· 0 ~· :> 0 .. )

Mr. Speaker, we will do what is proper in this respect, but I believe that the question should rnor·e properly be addressE!d to the President of Treasury Board (Mr. Baker). MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: ThE! han. the member for Humber East . MS VERGE: I thought it was appropriate to ask the Minister of Finance a question about a sl:atemE!I1t in his own Budget Speech. SOME HON: MEMBERS : Hear. hE!ar! MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker. I will ask the same question to the President of Treasury Board, who is also. the Minister responsible for the Status of Women.

It is a question about the government's commitment to pay equity for· wornE!n, tAJhc~l:hc~r that extends to the privatE! sector as lAJel.l as the publ.ic sector, and whE! thE!r lhe government is going to legislate the principle. I will also continue by asking the Minister responsible for the Status of Women is he familiar with the TrE!a sur y Board report about the position of women in the Newfoundland and Labrador Public Service~? If he is. would he summarize the main points?

And will the minister table in this HouSE! the report done by the Personnel Policy Division of Treasury Board on l:hr:' position of woJnE!n in thE! provincial Pub1ic Ser·vice? Ml~. BAKER: Min. Spea kE!r . 1_586 June 14, 1989 Vol· XLI MR. SPEAKER: The President of Treasury Board. the Minister responsible for the Status of Women. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . There are a number of questions thE!re. First. of a1l, l:he c ornrni tme nt to equal pay for· L>Jo I" k of equal value. that cornrnitrnent is therE!. ThE! pay equity provis:i.ons have been enshirl'lE!d in some contracts and not tn O'thers.

We a r e p r E! s E.' n t 1 y d e a 1 i n g lAri 1: h l: h u p a y equity iSSUP :i.n thE• Y'E:!ITICI:iJ-Idf!l" or· contracts - I am talking now about thE! d:iffE!rent typE! of pay E!qui i·_y ral:her than the ~3tatus of Wo1non thing _, .. so lAJe aro pr··esenl:.Jy dealing with that. The second question had to do with the extension to the private SE!Ct.or. The statf•rnE•nt :.in Lhe Budget SpeE!Ch does not ·i.1nply any kind of legislative act:ion at th:.is time in ter·ms of l:he pr·ivat.E! sector. It :i.s so1nwlh:ing that I have discussed with various groups involved with li.J0111en's :i.ssUE!S :.i.n l:he Province.

ThE!rc~ is a tAJornen' s Jobby corni.ng up soon, and I am sure that that will probabl.y be an issue. Part of the problem has been that after being in this position for a VE!ry shor·l:: t.:irne, bE!fOine any action is taken [ rE!a1ly fN!1 as :i.f I hctve t:o consult with all of the interested groups and to make sure that I have an understanding of exactly what it is that thE!Y want. and I will thE!n rnake decisions on that basis.

But the ansWE!r to :i.t. :is, no, there is no legislation at thi .s time that :i.s going l:o E!nfoJnct:• anything on the private sector until :it has been properly discussed and looked at. I n t e r· TTl s 0 r t hE! r E! p 0 r l.. l: hE! I'll e ITI b (! t' No. 12 1\ '.'>86

asked about, that is not on thE! t'ip of my tongue at thE! moment. I shaJJ. U!rtaJ.nJ.y J.ook into it and get back to the member. MS VERGE : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Humber East . MS VERGE: I think this is shades of what my friend behJ nd caJ.:ls the rE!gressJ.ve LiberaJ. Party. But I hope when the Minister responsJble for the Sta l:us of Wotnen I:=JEd:s fully bri(!fE!d and consults with interested gr·oups, which should not take too long, that he will quickly conclude that action for the private sector is necessary . Mr.

Speaker, r'E!tunling to the public sector·, I IJJould like to ask the minister what action he proposes to improve the position of IAJOITten in t.he Public Ser·vicE! of Uds Provinu~ and, :in particuldr, if he and his adrnini.straU.on wi .ll appoint women to the Public Service Commission, which has onE! vacancy now and will have a second vacancy in the Fa11? MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the President of the Council. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

I would point out to the member that if that was necessary now, and it has been necessdry and of urgent: importancE! in thE! last mord:.h since I hdve taken OIJer, it. was dlso of urgE!n\: importance during the last seventeen years. SOME HON. MEMBERS : llear·, hear! L :> 8 7 JUnE! 14, 1989 Vol. XLI MR. BAKER: I n t e r· rn s of thE! r· Q m a i n d e r' of the qUE!st.i.on, uJe r.u·e comrn:1t.ted t:o equal-.ity in terms of appo:i.nt.rnc~n'l:s a n d s o o n t o t-. IH! v a r :i o u s b o a r· d ~:; clnd commissions as thE!.IJ co1ne up.

Thi.s is a consideration, again, that I have discussed with the WoiTIE!n' s PoJ icy OfficE! and I have been properly briefed by the WOITIE1n' s Pol:i.cy Offi.CE!. I hauE! talked to the President of the WornPn and haVE! uri th a nurnbr:!r' groups or ITIE!E!'!:-. :.i 11~.JS of other· g r·oups Status of schE!dU1E!d IAJOITIE! n ' s ·.intE!restc:•d in women's issues. S 01 n r:• o f l:. h e q u e s l:. .i. o n s 1: 1·1 C::! 1 no; ni:J E! r' asks, I understand what she is saying, I understand t;.Jhere she~ is c o rn .i n g f 1·' o ITI , b u t.

I 1..0 ·i J l p o :i n l.. o 1.1 t to hc:•r, aga ·in, tha1:. tAW <H'U cornrni t: l:.ed to equal:i . ty and 1 a:n cornrnitted to 1-.istE!ning l:o 1,uhat Lh~'! WOITtPn's groups have to ~~ay f:ir·st. before jumping into precip :i.l: l.o us act:Lon :i.n one month tha ·L th(·! rnPrnbers opposite shou1d have donE• during t.he last seuPnleen years. SOME HON. MEMBERS : HE!ar, hear! Ml~. HEWLEfT : Mr. SpE!akE!r. MR. ~3PEAKER: ThE• hon. the me1nb~:!r fot" Cr·t:o E!n Bay . MR. HEWLETT: Thank you, Mr . Speaker .

In thE! rE:!cent budgE!t, Mr'. ~;pPakE!r', thc::~re WdS an announcE!IIlE!I11: of somE! considerable money for capita] impr·overnents -.in l:he palnk systum. Would the minister responsible for the pdr·ks systE!ITI car·e l~o :ind-.icdi·:r::> whal . tAJou]d be the natur·e of LhE"SE'! irnprov ernent s? MR. SPEAKER : fhe Minis l:er of Environ!Tient. and No. 12 R r.:.a 7

Lands. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Similar· questtons tJJere raised this morning in E!St:irnates, and I guess a lot of information was given. There ar·p a cotJpl~1 of parks that will receive the comfort station installments on a jointly funded venture between the Province and Canada. Additionally to that, there will be road improvements, in some cases, I believe, addit.ional camp s.ib:•s, and l:he goner't,J.] upkeep and Jmr>~~ovE!ITJE:!nt of l:he existing par·ks, is the anSIAIE!r you rE!qutr'E!. MR. HEWLFTT: Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Green Bay . MR.

HEWLETT: I tJJould ask thE! minister: Indian River Park and Crpscent Lake Park in Gi~E!E!n Bay, are c:d the1~ of those or both on the list? MR. SPFAKER : The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands. MR. KELlAND : I I>~IOuld have to chE!Ck on Jndtan River, but thE!re is no funding for Crescent Lake Park this year. MR. HEWLETT : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Green Bay . MR. HEWLETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

I might .indicate to the that the Crescent Lake particular was taken over L588 June lll ·, 1989 tninistE!r· Par·k in by the Vol XLI a little whilE! ago and for a major upgr ·acLi ng, government was slated including sho!AJE!rs, and comfort stations, so on and so forth. In light of the fact l:hat sotno of thE!Se tmproVE!HlE!nts arE'! bej ng rnacle to oHlE!r par'ks, could thE! rninistE!r adviSE!

ITJE! whE!thE!r' I should adv:i s:E! rny constituents in i:.hat ar·e·a that they should give up on the concept of Crescent Lake being developed into a modern park !Adt:h aLL l.hPse amenities or should Utclt area r_1o back to being a gravel pit? MR. SPEAKER: The han. thE! r~inist.E!r· of Environment and Lands. MR. KELLAND: An int:E!rest:i.ng I~Jay of phr·as:in~J d question, Mr. Speaker.

I do not think the people :in that area should give up on having Crescent Lake made into a suitable park anymore than l:hE:~ pE!Ople ol~ Naskaupi district should give up hoping for a park in that district, t;.Jh:Lch Uwy have bE·~:!I'J trying for· for the last sE•venteon years without success. We inh'nd to prov idE• good qual i l::y recreational provincja] parks whE!rE!VC~r we can to the J.i .1n:i.t oF our budgeta1ny constr·i:dnt:s. No, they should not qivc! up any tncH'C! than anybody else should. SOME HON. MEMBERS : HE!ar', hear! Ml~. HEARN: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the mernber For St.

Mary's - The Capes. MR. HEAfm : Thank you, Mt~. SpE•ai<er. No. 12 R588

My quest'ion is to i:he Minister· of F:lshE!riE!S. In l:i.ght of thE! fact that the caplin season has now star·tpd, today ·-· and even today we have evidence that a number of the inshore fishE!Y'Hl(:~n, who fish cod only, have pr·oblerns selling thE!'.ir catches - I am just wondering has the minister has put in place some contingency plan to be able to handle the catchE!S of cod during the caplin season? It is a problem that has startE!d, I suppose, in St.

Mary 1 s Bay, where the caplin season has s t a I" t E! d , b u t lAI"i 11 c M' I" y o n r :i g h t around the Province, affecting rnembt:~rs on both sides, For many of the peoplE! lAJho depE!nd s tri.ctly on cod, especially the codtrap fishE!rmen lAdll have a prob}E!ITI as they haVE! had and will ha.ve ever·y year, in selling their cod catches? MR . SPtAKFR: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. W. CARTER: Thank you, Mr . Speak6r. We have had discussions union and IAJ'.ith ceri:ain thE! private sE:~ctor, and expressed an interest something. In fact, I that something is bE!ing ~)pE!ClkE!r, to accommodate glut.

MR. HEARN : Ml". ~~pE•aker . MR . SPEAKER : with the people in both have in doing undE!r·stand done, Mr. thE! cod ThE! han. the member For St. Mar·y 1 s -The Capes. Ml~. HEAim: l·hank you, Mr. Speaker. One oF the things suggested by some of l::hE! f:i.sherrnen l:.hE!IflsE·1vE!S and passod along to ·the 1rrinister L589 June 14, 1989 Vo] X l..I was that perhaps inshoro plant opE!rat:ors should, as a condit::i.on of liCE!nce, ~:!ach yea!" be E!Xpocl:ed, or rnaybE! ForCE!d, 1-.:o ht'tndle a certain amount of cod dur·.ing l:hE• capJj.n SE!ason. ~)OlliE! of thern actually forget to take cod at all.

They just telJ. the fishE!Y'rnE!n, 1 Not lAlhilE! we haVE! capl:ln, 1 bE!CaUSE! thE!Y rnab:! rnor.:• rnonE!Y on it, 1 We arE! not touching cod, because our frE>ezel"s are blocked. 1 I know it is a compJ.icated thing and it cannot: happen overnight, but when you considE!r, in the future, 1ookin~l at the 1icE!nc.ing policy, pel--·hap~; as a concl:i.t:ion of J:icE•nce, llldk:i .nq sure l~hat whei"E! pldnts c•x.i~.t: whe1' ·r::• you lAd]]. have cap]: .Ln ancl cod conLi.ng s.:l.multanr:!ously, t.ha1- at:. ]E!ctSt thE!SE!

OpE!Y'a'LOl"S lAl:i]J. hand]u a CE~rtain amount of cod, lAJhi.ch would al]eviatE! a lot of the gJut. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minjster of Fisheries . Ml~. W . CAinEI~: Mr . SpeakE!r, it is a good idea. At one po-.int: we gave som~'! thouqhl: to rnaybE! making it a concl:iLi.on or the licence that the processing SE!Ctor be requir·ed to prou:idE! t-.he necessary capab:i1:ity For spli1:ting and salting fish. That is one thought. II: is difficult l:o dictate to lhern to that extent, becauSE! most oF thc::~SE! plants i:.H't:! prj vat.ely ot..unecl and are being operate~ tAJith private funding.

Cer·t.a:i.n1y, it :i.s sornE!th:i.n~f that. ~~1e wi1l tako a look ai:, and i1: may well be that we can irnpose that kind of restriction on the processing sector. Ml~. SPEAKER: ThE! hon. Uw ITIE!ITiber For· ~)l::. Mary's - the Capt:!S. MR. HEARN : Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that . No. 12 R !) 8 9

Cel~tain1y, tt is somE!thing that has to bE! done, I think, in the long-term. It is not easy to impose someHdng on pr:i.vat.E! industry. fhe only lever, I gUE!SS, IAJE! haVE! is the l:icE!nce. I IJJou1d l:ike to ask, however, an associated qUE!stion, coming basica1ly out of the lead ques Uons from thE! LeadE!r of the Opposition to the Premier, concer·nj ng thE! overfishing and the quota cutbacks, etc., the presE~nt state of the fishery, mainly affE!cting the oFfshorE!.

In light of the fact t:hat next YE!ar, j f the quota cutbacks continue and are increased, we might see deepsea plants c1osE• do1JJn and trawlers taken out of action. Now, I kno1.u WE! can say it is a fede1~a1 problE!ITI, but certajnly we knOIAJ :i.f we 'leave it al1 to the feds we are not. goj ng to come out of it in a VE!ry good light, so we haVE! l:o have a lot of input. Has the Provincial Government put in place, or Li.dl 1 thE!Y put in plau• a contingency plant, also, to be ready for thE• drastic movE!S that could occur next year?

We hope thE!Y w:LJ l not but they could, and the writing is on the wall that they quite possibly might occur . It is too late to start moving when we see plants closed and trawlers on the beach. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speakt~r, YE!S, it makes a lot of SE!nSE!. That was one of the purposes of my meeting with Mr . Siddon last Wednesday. We discussed that very matter. We taJked about the contJ .ngency pJ.an, even this year, rnaybe, if the cat ches are be]ow what would normally rnake a halF dE!Cent . SE!ason.

But CETttdnJy, it is thE! sort of thing that we have been LS90 June 14-, 1989 Uo] XLI addressing. Th e Prr:!ITI:ier has written lEd: .tE !rS to ti·H:! P1":in1e Minister and I haVE! talked to th E! Min:LstE•r of FishE!dE!S jn Ol.t .awa . Il: :is somE:•l:hing we are look ing at and we are asking the federal government to start now to put together some kind of a contingEHlCY plan of assisbHlU:! 'if and when it :Ls needed next yea! ". Hopefully, :it IAd.ll not be need ed, but if it is, you arE! right, 1..\Je should have a plan rE!ady to put :in act :i.on, and we are workjng on that . M r~. HODDER : Mr. Sp~::~akc?.r .

MR . SPEAKER : The hon. thE! ITlc:!ITiber for' Por'L au Port. MR. HODDER : Mr . Speaker, a question for the Minister of Social Services (Mr . Efford), in ljght of Lhe m:in'ister·'s recently announ c:nd dE!c:i.s:i.on to jnst ·.alJ a coiTipuLc :!l" systern in the Department of Social Serv:i.cE!S. Now, Mr·.

Speaker', 1 arn n o t a g a i n s t r: h E! c o rn p u t e r· s y s l: <:! m , but I arn concernE:!d about: the f'act: that the:~ rrr.in:ist E!r' w:ill be guing back in tiiiiE! to asse ss social assistance recipiE~nts and, as l:hE ~ min:i.ster well knows, rnany soc ial assistance recipients who haue received an overpayment have nu L fraudulE!ntly kept -.it; IH•i"Y oftt:!n, they are not aware of the facl that thE!Y haue bE!E!I'l ovc:•r ·pa i d, especially when UIC and Canada Pension overlaps with Soc ial ServiCE!S.

My ques U on to l~hn minister is : Is thi s an $8 million money grab on behalf o ~ the department on the ba cks of th e poor people of the Pr ·ovj nee? And wi11 the minister write it oFF tAJhen thE!r'e :i.s no Pv:.iclence of tJJI"ongdoing? MR. SPEAKEI~ : No. 12 RC::)90

The han. the Minister of Social Services . MR. EFFORD : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have been sitting in my chair hc~re for the last couplE!, or thr'E!E:~ WE!eks waiU .ng for a question, and I would have thought when they · asked a question it would have beE!n something pertinE•nt today and what I havE:~ donE! s:ince I became minister just. thirty days ago. The computers were instalJed in thE! DE:~pi'llnt.lllEH1t of Social ;)E!rv ·.ices in 1976 and the overpaymc:!nt~~ have bE!On accurnulating since thE• E!arly 1950s. Under the last administration and under th e formE!r Mj rd stE!r' of Social ~)E•rv:icE!S (Mr.

Tobin) sitting di1nectly acr'os s from mE!, when the evaluation was done by the Ontario fir'm that I so noisiJ.y protestE!d against in the HousE! of AsSE!mbly while sitting in the Opposition, t:hc~y instrucl:E!d that that process should be updatE!d and fur'ther enforced. With the former M:i. nj. s ter of reqUE!St to his donE!. And it administration, Mr. ~>peaker. Social Servjces 1 officials. that was was donE! undE!r his not under m:ine, SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. HODDER: Mr. SpeakE!r, that sort of shotAJs the arToganCE! of the rnini.stE!r and the way he expects to treat social assistance recipients. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! Just a very important point of procedurE! . I 1..\Jant. thE• niE!IrlbE:~r t.o rr:!alize that I havE• nol: yc:!'l: recognizE~d ~d1n. I am gcdng to, but I have not yet done so. L.591 J u n e 111 . , 1 9 8 9 Vol XLI The hon . the member for Port au Port. Ml~. HODDER: Mr'. SpeakE!r', could t:hE~ nr:in:.ist.ur tell the House what propor·t..ion of thosE! overpayments 1..\JE!lnE! :incurred through administratiVE! E!r'l"or, dncl wilJ he put the blame where the blame belongs? It is l:he 1nin.istc!r' who :is going back and conducUng this look through the f:iJE!S.

W-j 11 hE! l:.ell us 1..\Jhat port::ion of l:hose were d.dlninistrd.tive E•r'lnOr's ancl what por'tion of those WE!Y'E! pr:~opJ.e u1ho took t.ho monoy kncP.AJ.irJqly? MR. EFFORD: Mr'. SpeakE!r, I <.'WI sur'pl"is<:~d l:.hat the hon. membE!r - Ml~. SPEAI<EI~ : Order, please! thE• sa me that I thing have I say Minister, recognized going to. the 1rd n :i s L e I" to not b ul:. T the yet a:n The hon. Servjces . the Minister of Social MR. EFFORD: I apologize, Mr. ~3peaker.

The hon. member, as cr':itic of Social ~3,:•rvices , should disctJss questions with his colleagues, bE!CaUSE! thE• rne1nbE•r shou1d know that his colleagues were the people who instituted this. and U1 E' y caused • by thE! way • this amount, through poor administration over thl'! last. seventE!en year's, to happen t:o th,:• E!XtE!nl:. it. has happE•n E~d OVE>r' '!':.hat: period of time. What percentage of the lTioney i~~ o'i'' rnisappropr'.i.at'ion oF adn1inis'l:r'ation a n d IAJ h a t p e r' c E! n t a g e o f :i.

L. :i. s j u s L: gE!n(!ral OVE!rpaymen-l:.s by Lhe accumulal .::ion of people who cclnnot afford t:.heir J·ight bills, r lAJiJ .l No. 12 r' ~) 9 1

take under advisement and bring the answer into this House tomol~r·ow, the exact percentage . But . I can tell t:.hE! hon. member that IAJe have not instr·uctE!d it to be enforced any stronger than your administration did. It. is an ongoing thing which I inheri tE!d as Minister of Social Services.· We are taking a very serious look at it to determine what affect i.t is having on thE! day to day livE:~s of the people, which you and your administrat-ion causE!d to happt::~n.

We are not col]ecting any more than S pE!I~ CE!nt or: the incomE! of the people who are affected by this. 11: is causE!d in 1nany dif f E! rent IAJay s, and I lAd 11 br:i. ng to thE! attE!ntion of the hon. mr:.:~mbE!r, and tabJ.E:~ :Ln th:is HousE•, what percentages of this is through the fault of the client or through the fault of the Department of Social Services, which was then under your guidance. MR. RIDEOUT : That is one per cent more than you gave him in a ra-.ise. MR . PARSONS : You gave them four per cent . MR . SPEAKER: The han . the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr.

SpE!aker, the rnini.stE•r ta1ks about thG! inaccuracies in payouts co1lect:ing in Hw past. But dOE!S he not take into view that thE!Se are thE! poorE!St people and that a 5 per CE!nt decreaSE! for somebody, who unknowingly fiue years ago received an overpayment, is harsh? W:i11 the rn:i.nislE!r, when he qoes back and d11:!cks, also look for people who have been underpai.d as u.Je11 as ovc•rpa:id? Because that occurs just as well. L592 June 14., 1989 Vo 1 XLI SOME HON. MEMBERS : HE!ar', hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of SocLal SE!rv:i CE!S . MR. EFFORD : Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will tell thE! hon. mernber that whiJe thjs member was on the other side of the House, whilE! hE! was in Opposi.tion, he very clearly said that thE! peoplE! of \:h.i.s Pro,Jince IAJer'E! noL r·pce:i.v:i.ng enough lrlOJl('Y l.o 1ive on, and wh''!rl he coJnC!S on t.!·1 is s:idE! of the HOUSE! as M:LnJ .. stE ·!l'' or· Socia1 SE!Y'ViCE!S his r·c!sporJs.-Lbili.l:.y . . d J ll -l J.s J.ncrE!i'lSE! co ~·w same peop .. e. We realize that these people do not have enough rnoney t:o J i vc· on. W c~ a 1 s o r E' a 1 i z e t h a t l: h e f o r· m c• r· administr·al::ion for· SE!VE!nl'een y<'!iH'~: al1owed this to happen.

We have~ bE!en ther'E:' in Ud s position for- a lit:tle rnore than \:.h.i..J'·ty days, dnd I can assur·e the rnernber· oppos:it -.E! that IJJEr will, <3.5 is our responsi.bility to the socJaJ. s E! r v i c e l" e c i p i 1:! n 1: s o r~- t h i. s Provi.nce, creatE! a beU:E·r econom:ic condition where those people ca n gE!t some pr ·ide back in the.:i.r stornach and go to work on good, jobs, long pE!rrnanent jobs. We tAJ:i.l1 1ook to rnab:~ surE! l:hat t:hoy havE> food on LhE:~ t .. ab]E:! IAJhl!l"' necessary and that Lhey have a warm bed in which to slE>ep. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the lTlE!TnbE• r for Burin -PJacenLia West: . MR. TOBIN : Mr. Speaker, I decLded that I IAJO u 1 d as k a quest :j on L o L he Minis t E' r of So c:.i. a 1 ~3 E! r vi.. c e s , l:. he rnan who sat.: over her'e, a~; hE! sajcl No. l2 FU:) 9 2

and criticized and did nothing else for the last four years. Now, Mr . Speaker. minister responsible the youngest child ProvinCE! barTed up in lie is the Minister he is the for having in this adult jail. of Social Services who is responsible for the~ youths 13 dnd 14 YE!ar olds, barred up over WE!l':~kends in adult jail and the Minister knows what I am talking about because I contacted him. I have to say when I contacted him, he acted upon .it, Jl.~r·. SpeakE!r', but l:hr:•re was no excuse when I was the Minister. Now, Mr.

SpE!aker, :in addition ht' is beating up on the poor, the sick and the suffering of this Province by taking back the S percent instead of evaluating it like I was going to do and then ask Treasury Board to deal with it . Mr. Speaker, then he had to turn around and give i:h!C!Ifl a 4 pt::1rcent increaSE!, and from thE'!III then takes 5 percent for overpayments and it is something that is not tolE!rai:E:~d. Now, Mr·. Speaker, in addition to th:i.s, when the people who were involved in tht~ chi1d we1fare pr·ocE!SS in this Province -- MR. SPEAKER : OrdeJ~, p1E!ase!

The han . rnE!JTibE !r will know that lAJe ar(:! alloWE!d a

preamble in an introductory question, but the member is making a rather long prE!aJnble, and the Chair has bE!en waiting for the question. Would thE! rneiTibE!r' pr·oceed to get to t.hE:1 question, plE!ase? MR. TOBIN : My apologies, Mr. Speaker. I_E!t me <9-sk the Mirl'ister ho1Al can he j ust.ify today, IAJhc;!n ever'y 'l:irnE· you L':i9 3 Jurw 14, 1989 Vol XU turn on !:he r·ad:i o and pj c k up a nE!WSpap(:~r you hE!ar pE!ople cr·y:Lng, beg~Jing. Mr·. ~)pli'!aker·, pJ.eacLi ng l.:o have SOrrlE! JJJCJr'E! a.ss.istal'lCU f~OY' those involving aJ.l aspects of Child Welfare, how can the Minister of SocjaJ.

Services justify a reduction in Uw budget for the division of ChjJ.d WeJ.fare? MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Minister of Social ~ . JOrVlCE!S . MR. EFFORD : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I a rn s u r· p r· i s E:' d a t L: 1·1 E:! F o J" 111 E!r' Minister of Soc:ial Services. I l:.hought at. ]east IAJhen hE! I;.Ja~; :in this pos.it:ion, he had onou<::Jh i:tll'lr:! t.o r·esear·ch and see J;.Jhat J;.Ja~; happE!n:ing in the Depar·LnJent: or So c i a 1 ~:; e r· v i c e s • a n d n 01..1.J t 11 a t: h E! .i.s :in thE! Opposit:i.on al: J(:!asi: h(:! would have tirne t:o r·ead lhe budgol:.

I say to l:.ht:! metni:H:!J" oppos:itE! thE•J"E! :i.s 1'10 J"educl:::ion :-.in Child Welfare in this Province, but. ·there :i.s a sma]J :.i.ncrease.

A~ ; M:inistE!r' of Social Serv.ices lilY respons:.i.b:LJit.y :Ls t.o J.ook to t.h<' Future and to provide the best dd 1d can'! lAJE! pos s:ib1y can. and "in the short time we have be(!J'l theJ"E! we have looked at l::he prob1ems 1.r..Jil:hin Choi.ld WE!lfare and L•.Je IJ.ri .ll be b r i n g i n g :i. 1:: u p to L o cl a y 1 ~; J'W e cl ~; and in the nE!Xt SE!VG!r'a1 1\IOI'lt:hs lA.iE' wiJl provide the service that they so desperately lacked under the former administration. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! Ml~. SPEAKER: The h on . the rn E:! rfl be I" I' or· Burin -Placentia West . MR.

TOBIN : Mr. of ~)p(!akE!r, !:he PJ~ov.inCE!' s the total buci~Jet For· No. 1.2 shar·e Chi]d 1\ ')9 3

Welfare last year was $4,294,000. This year it is $4,271,800. I say to the Minister, if that means an tncr·E:~ase, Mr. SpE!akE!r, God hE•J.p the people in this Province who have to depend on them. Relating to Youth Corrections in the budget, Mr. Speaker, once you E!XC1ude the capital E!XpE!ndi tur·e in the total budget going into the Whitbourne School there is a reduction there . Let me ask thE! Minister, at this point in time are there any capi t:aJ. expenditures fo1~ new C1noup Homes for young offenders jn this Prov:inCE! to start this year? If there are, lAJhere? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services . MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Fir·st of all, Mr·. Speake1n, the Youth Correction facilities in this ProvinCE! that:. I visitE:'d whE!n I was an Opposition member, and visited again since I became Minister of Social Services, are absolutely deplorable! For thE! former administration to have a11owed them to reach that stage, I would be ashamed, as an Oppos:it.ion rnernbE!ln, to stand in my place and ask the question. I can assure the member opposite that Youth Correction facilities in th:is Prov'.ince w:i.l1 be greatly improved.

There will be capita] ex p e n d i t u r E! 1.11 here n e c e s s a r y , I can assure the member opposite that we are not leaning towards more securedcus t.ody faci1:l.ties and more group homes that will keep kids barred in. We have already startud in Easter·n NE!IAJfound1and an aJ.ternat:l ve measures progl~arn tJ.JhE!r'e WE! wi11 have volunteer pE!oplE! fl"Oln thE! community lak:i ng thoSE! young 1_594 June 14, 1989 Vol XLI boys and girls and put:ti.ng them to work in the~ community whE!l"E! they wiJ.l be with their farniJies and can get nec1 :!ss ary help. lnle car·e, Mr·. Sper.lker.

We ar'E:' not J:i .I<E! the former administrat'.ion. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: ThE!re is time for onE! quick, fina1 supplementary. The hon. the member for Burin Placentia West . Ml~. TOBIN ; My f:i.naJ. supp]ernon ·tcu·y, M1'·. Speab~tn, is to !".he 1nin :is b.H' again. I lAJOu1cl 1:i.kE' ! Lo dsk l.h( ·! minister, agi::t :in, is thc!r'e dny money in this, Mr. Speaker, for new young offenders open custody facilities? Not closed custody facilities, Mr . SpE!aker, bu l: oplHl custody fac::i.l:i.t:i E!S.

If ther'E! any rnonE!Y :in l:h'.i.s 'budcjl:!t Fo1n I1E!W op1::!n custody faci1il:ies anyL\Jher·e :in t:he Province? If so, how much? And IAJhere tAJi11 thE!Se neJAI fac::i.Jj tiE!~; be creat~;;1d, ~~r. SpeakE!r? ·And d.s he ta1ks about this, Mr·. Speaker·,].(: ![: me ask hi rn has he chan c::~ e d y E!\: thE' Jocks on the emer·gE!llCY doors :in the old Schoo1 for the Deaf? MR. FFFORD: Mr· . Speaker·. MR . SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Social Services. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. to \~he FoJ"Jnt~r Let me first say Minister of Social w.i.11 bE! the for'lllE!r long, long t::i me to come.

Serv::i.CE!S, hE! lll:inis l:er fol" a SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. 12 FUi91.J.

Hear, hear! MR . EFFORD: Number· one, Mr . SpeakE!r', thE! Former Minist er of Social Services was the minister who forced his department, who instructed his department to collect the deficiency in the accounts receivable on the backs of the poor in this Province. liE! ·is i:he former Social Services MinistE!r who allowed those doors to be down in the School for the Deaf, because it was under his ministerial res ponsibili ty that that fac ·iJ·ity was bui1l: down there.

As Mird.stE!r' of ~'iod .al Services today, we will address the needs of all the young offenders f.lnd E!Verybody who comes under the DE!partrnent of ~)oc:lal Services. I work an average of sixteE!n to eighteen hours a day and I t .. lill incrc~aSE' that if necessar ·y . SOMF HON. MEMBERS : HE~ar·, hear! MR. EFFORD: Mr. SpE!aker, we do not lAJork Monday until Friday, we work days a week, if necessary. fr·orn SE!VE!n We to will continue to do that provide the proper care for young boys who did not receive the the proper carE! under th<:~ fornlE!r adrninistr ·a-t:ion .

ThE!Y now haVE! a minister who is responsible and who cares about the young boys and they will get proper and due care, Mr . Speaker. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, heclr! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! Ml~ . SPEAKER : Order, please! LS95 June 14, 1989 VoJ. XLI Question Period has elapsed .

If I could be permitted just a coJTIIllent or· 'LIAJO so that the ~)peakcr 1nay be gu ·.id1:>d tn futurE' question Periods and so \::hal:: the Question Period is kept as crisp and as 1 i g h t a s p o s s i b lE• , a g a i n 1 r E! rrd n d hon. members asking questions, and I do this because rnost: of us ar'E! new in asking questions, and certainly eVE!rybody is nE!W :i.n answering, so that we can get good, pr·ecise ansiAJE!I"S lAJP have to have good questions as wt::!11.

So I ask the hon. rnernbers, par·-t::i cular] y in the pi"eamblE!, iF thE•y tAJOulcl keep :i.t:. as br·:.i.t:!f ac; po~:;~;ib1(:! ancl tr·y i:o keep ·it to onE! qlH :!s l: :l.on, b E:• tel use i t rna k e s :L t: h a r' d f o I'' thE! Speak<:!r' -t.o judgE! ti"IE! an~;lAJI:!r· lAJhc!n a preambJ.E! :i_ncJ.ucles thr 'E:!E' or· f"ot.H' questions. I just wonder if .i.n the future we t:r-y to rnake it so that. I cdn ensut"e that anstAJE!r·s ar·e q u :i c k , if lAJE! wj l J l r· y to k E! e p the ques.tion to one as well. Thank you . Notices of Motion MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Justice. MR. DICKS : Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: -=r-:-he 'li-on-. -t:hE:! Minister of Ju~~t:iu:!. Mf~. DICKS : Mr·. Speaker, I giVE! nol:ice that. I wiJ.l on tomorrow ask leave to int.r-oduu~ a b.i11, "An Act ro Abo1ish Ceri:ain Anc:iE•nt. R:ighl:s Of Acti.on In ThE! Ar·t:·a Of FdiTI .i.ly La w And To AlnE•nd The Ch:i Jdi"Cn' ~~ LatAJ Act, fhe Fanli1y l.atAJ Act, !"'he Recripr·oca] Enfor'U!rnenL OF ~)t ;p port_ Or'ciE!I"S Aci: And fhE! ~"3uppLil"t_ Or·dHt"~; No. '12 R f:)9 c,;,

Enfol~cornE!nt Act", :in ordE!r to correct anomalies and errors in those Acts. (Bill No. 9). SOME HON. MEMBERS: HE!ar, hear! DR. KITCHEN: Mr. SpeakE!r'. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. SpE!akE!r, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to inl:roduce a bill entitled, "An Act Respt:!Cting An Inci~E!ClSE! Of Cert.cd n PE!IIS:ions". (Bill No. 8). And, Mr.

Speaker, I g:lVE! not:ice that I w.il:l on tornol"row rnove that this HouSE! resolVE! itsE:!]:f j_nto c~ Committee of the Whole to consider certain r'E!solutions reJ.ating to the gual~antE!eing of CE!rt.ain loans under The Local Authority Cuarantoe Act, 1957. (B-.ill No. 6). MR. 1<. AYLWAIW: Mr. SpE!akel~. MR. SPEAKER: fhE! hon. l:hE! rnernb1?. r' fo1~ StephenvilJ.E!. MR. 1<. AYLWARD: Mr'. Speaker, I give noLi.CE! t:hat I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following resolution:

WHEREAS the Stephenville and GandE!r Aj_rpor'ts ar'E! important to the transportation system of this Pr'ovincE:~ and also to the E:'conomic development of those regions; and WIJEREAS Air Canada has SE!rv1:•d Stephenville and Gander Airports For many years with jet service to mainland Canada; and WHEI~EAS on Februar'y 1, 1989, LS96 J u n e 1 'I· , 1 9 8 9 Uo1 XLI without any consul tat :ion Ail~ Canada decided that it would w:i thclraw servicE! from StE!phE!ml.i lle and Gander Airports on June 17, 1989; and WHEr~EAS requests have beE!n ma(:llo• to thE!

Nat:ional Transpor·tatton AgE!ncy to hold a public h1c!ar:Lng into the dE!Cision by Air Ci'.lnada but as of this date have refused to call for a hearing; and WHEr~EAS l~equest-s hav€:~ been rnacle to the Federal Minister of Transportation as k:1 ng Lha l:_ t.he ·f-"edE•ral government call l'or· a public hearing into the Air Canada 1.ui thdl~at,..Jal; BE IT THEREFORE r~ESOLUED t:hat. -Li'!E! HOUSE! FedE!ral of A s s E:! 1 n b 1 y r e q u e s l:.

L h E:• Minister of Transport, Benoit National Bouchard, to or·del" \:.he• Transportation Agency to hold a public hoaring into Air Canada's dE!Cision; and BE IT FURl-HER RESOLVED that Air Canada, still bE!inq a ft:!dE!r'a1 Cr'own Corpo,~ation, be or'ciei''E!cl l:.o delay the withdrawal of sorvico until the public hearings have bE!E:~n complE! tE!d. Thank you. ~WME l-ION. MEMBER~); HE!ar, hE!ar! MR. SPEAKEF~: I be1iE!VE:~ th<::~ Chair' movE·d along frorn Presenting Reports by Standing and ~3pecia1 Committees to Notices o-F Motion.

If the Hou~~e t,~.r.ill agl~E·e, for l:hE:~ c1arificaLLon of Hansard I IAri 11 ca1] For' Presenting l~epoJ"ts by ~3\:andtng and SpE'•c:i.al Corrllrriltees, becausr• thai .. is where we were. We are now into Not:Jces of Motion. Arc! t:l·wre Further Notices of Motion? No. 12 RE:o96

Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier· . PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I rE!ceived noU.cE:o today that hon. members opposite wanted some tnforrnation as to thE! advice I have given the Prime Minister with respect to fisheries rnattc~rs. I haVE! alr·eady provi.dE!d thE! hon. the Leader of the Opposition lArith cop'.i1~s of l:hE! ttAJO letters to which I referred. I would not.IJ likE! to table l:hose two letters . Mr~. BAKER : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. thE! Gover·nmE!nt House LeadE!r. MR. BAKER : Mr .

SpE!aker, I wonder if WE! could have unanimous consent to revert back For a moment to StatemE!nts by MinistE!rS. TherE! j.s one stat.e1t1ent that tAJas not quite rE!ady, and the Minister of Municipal Affairs would likE! to presE!nt it. Could we get unanimous consent to revert for one statement by a minister? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: It is agreed. Statements by Ministers MR. SPEAKER : The hon. t.he MinistE!r of MurdcipaJ. and Provincial Affairs. Ml\. GU L LAGE : LS97 JunE! J.li, 1989 Vol XLI Mr.

Speaker and hon. lnE!mbE!rs of the House of Assembly : On JunE! '7, 1989 I announc::!d Lhat rny dE•partment tArLIJ. spend sorne 1;:,o million on municipal capital projects this year. I arn plE!ased han. House today of to :.i.nfor ··rn lhis l: h E! d E! ti.<d J. E:! cJ expendi turE!S my ciE!partmont will be und(~rtaking. As I indica l:.ed E!ar·J.:i.er, the com1nun:i.t·.:'.ies t.o receive funding today are considE!rE!d those to haVE! LhE! most. pr·E!SSing needs as LhC!Y r·elate l:o E! n v :i r o nm l'! n t a J. a n cJ I o r h c· a] l: h probJ.OIIlS. Mr·. Speaker·, I l.h:i.nk :.it. lAJOulcl be i rn p 0 r t a 1'1 t.

I~ 0 I" rn E! I 11 b 0 In S 0 f l: h (! 1·1 U U :::: (! to know that . :i.t is my inL· .ent .i on t.o announce the 1990 capital work s for both water and sewer and roads :i.n the Fall of l:hois y1C!dl" l:o onstH'e that earJ.ier tendering can take placo and that projC!C\:s for 19~)0 can ~~tcn·t as soon as po~;s::ib1t:> in the Sproing of 1990. SOME liON. MEM13 E I~S: Hear, hear! MR. GUL.LAGE : The following is \:he list of expenditures listt:>d by municipality, oin alphabeLical ordE!r, lAJh:ich :is attached to an appendoix to this statement. MR. R. AYLWARD : Mr·. Spedker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member For· Kil.bd.de. MR. R. AYLWARD: fhdnk you IH!ry much, Mr. Speai<E!r . First of a]l, I tAJant t:o !.:hank l .. hc h 0 n . rni n is t e I" r 0 r a c 0 p y 0 F t: hE! statement and the list of projects which are to be started. Mr. No. 12 R :)9 7

Speakc::•r, I do \JJant: to congratulate the minister on hjs statement that as of next yE~ar, 1990, there will be early tenders. It is desperately needed in this ProvinCE!, and I am gJ.ad to see that: the han. minister is going to keep up the good \AJork startE!d by l:hE:~ rnE!InbE!r for Harbour Main (Mr. DoyJ.

e) so1m=! years ago, to try to implement that project. Mr. SpE ·aker, WE! had a statE!rnent by the min:i.st.E!r, some Ed.ght days ago I guess it IAJas, which stab:•d that therE! tJ.Jas a $~=.o rn:.LlJ.:i.on--plu~; IAJaLer cJ.nd SE!WE!r' pl~ogJ~arn, which \JJas sorl'IE!What n1or·e than IAJa~; spE!nt J.a~;t y e d r . I co n g r· at u 1 a l: e t he rninj s tE!r' on get t.ing soJTJE:! rnor·e money. Il: is not nE!ar1y Lvhat: was needed and not nearly what was expected, I do not believe, by the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities, but, again, it was mor·e than we had before.

I jus l: got:. the· list a couplE! of rninutE!S ago, Ml". Speaker·, and :in tak·ing a quick look at it I did not see on the list a project which is VE!ry important ·- I am surprised the member for Windsor - 13uchans (Mr. Flight) d.id not see that it was on the list - to Central Newfoundland, and it is thE! tJ.JateJ~ trE!at.rnE!nl plant for thE! Central Newfoundland area. I do not see any mention of it here. Maybe~ .it is sorn:::!tJ.JhE!re E!lSE! in the budgE!t and I am missing it., but I c e r t a i n 1 y· do no t s e e i t. on t hi s Iist.

Also, thE!re was a very ':important thing, certainly for thE! dj strict of l:hE! rne1nber for Windsor Eluchans, which tAle had committE•d t.o do, and that was to upgrade the servicE!S in Lhe TotJ.Jn of W:i.ndsor. We had an MC, and I think $2.5 million was supposed to be allotted for that ULi.s YE!ar. It L.[.)98 June 14 ·, 1989 Vol XLI was recornlfiE!ndE!d while I 1..vas in l:hc:! dE!partrnE!nt, I know. I seE! that-. has been cut by at least $1.5 miJ.lion, so thE!Y will actuaLly get aJ~ound $1 mi11ion. That: is t:oo bad.

Wjth the incrE·ase in do11<H' amounts, I would expect thoSE! critical problems to have been lookE!d aftE:'r, but I guess thE!Y were OVE!rlookE!d t.hj s Li.lfiE!. I wi 11 be go j, n g o v E! r thE! 1 is t to make sur·e that: thE! money was spent fairly and equitably. Mr. Speaker, whE!rl WE! haVE! pei"USl :!d the l:i.st so1ne mor·e, I tAJ·.:i.J.] pr·obably be as k>Lng the 1n:i.rd.s tel~ lnOJ~(:! ques t.:·.ions. r h an k y o u v N' y m u c h , ::; L r· . Ml~. SPEAKEI~: Before gE:!lt.:ing jnto Or·ders or· l.:hE:!

Day I IAJould like to IAJe.lcome Lo the GaJ.Jeries on behalf of hon . members a delE!gation fr·om Lhe Council of· Triton, rPpresent('!d by Mayor Winsor and Councillors Wi11 ·iams and Woodfor·d. Also, WE:~ t..vould like the Galleries today Bishop 1 s Falls, Saunders. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT : Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : l:o tJJelcorne l:.o lhe Mayo1~ or Mr. Ceor··qE! The hon. the Lt:!acleJ~ of I": hE:! Opposjtion . MR. RIDEOlJr: Mr. Speaker, br:~forE! WE! caLl OrdE!r's of thE! Day I wondE!r i.f l:he Pr 'E!

In'Ler has any inforrnalion to gjve Lhe HouSE! on a qUE!Si:..ion [ asked h:i .1n a coupJ.e of days ago rela ting Lo issues in transportation, and r e J a t: :i n g to L he B E~ l ] I s 1 a 11 cl f e I" I" y and a Minute -of -Council. lhe No. 12 RS98

Premier gave some indication across the yesterday that he had ver·bal floor· th<O! information, and I was sort of expecting that we might hear sornE!thing from the Premier on it today. MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: I assume he is talking about Minute-of-Council relating to Bell Island ferry? MR . RIDEOUT: That is the Minute -of-CounciJ, yes. PI~EMIER WELLS ; thE! thE! s dinE! I do not remember specifically the issue, but I can tell the House, Mr. Speaker, that on May 23 thE!re was a Minute-in-Council passed that dr:!alt with the issue of fE!rriE•s in thE! ProvincE!.

The MinutE!--in-CounciJ. provided fc)l" the imrnedia tE! construction of a ferTy for BE!11 Is] and. It aJ.so pr -ovided for· an ass E! s s lnE! n t by l: he depar-t.ment of the ferry needs of Fogo, in particular, Fogo and Change Islands, and it also d·.il~ected that thE~re be no further work done by Marystown Shipyards with respect to a second ferry For BE!l] Island. I think that is largely what it covered.

It directed that there be no further work done at this time by Marystown Shipyards with respect to a further ferry, and it also provided for an assessment of the ability to restore the Beaumont Hamel for possible use on the Bell Island ferry service. Ml~. SPEAKER : The han . the l.E!ader· of L hE:~ Opposi-tion. L 1)99 JunE! 14-, 1989 Vo1 XLI MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I thank t:he hon. the inFormation he the HOUSE! a" -· a the PrE!ITI::iur For' has pro~1.ided to Y'E!SUl t of OUI" questions. In order to pr·otect our right::; on this sidE! of l:hE!

House as an Opposition, and sinCE! we on]y no1.~J rece".ived this .infor·mation, I take this opportun:i ty, Mr. ~3peaker, 1::<1 give you notice that because of thE! :inforrnat:ion flowing from L.hH Premier 1 s i.HlSliJer· l:oday, as soon <·'l.s we can havE:! l":.l'w i.~ p prop I" i a U .• 1n c~ s e a r c h c o rn p l E! t e d t..u E! lAii 11 b C:! ra::i sing at Lhe first opporl:1 .1n:i Ly d point of privilege on this matter. Orders of the Day Private Member 1 s Day MR. SPEAKER: It bEd.ng WE!dnesday, I caLl upon thE! hon. l:hE! me1nbE!r !~or Mount Pearl to debate his resolution.

ThE! hon. the member For Mount PE!arl. SOME HON . MEMBERS : fiE!ar, hetH'! MR. WINDSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of a11, I tAJant: t:o, just :.in

preamble, congratulate the Minister of Mun::ic::ipal and Pro v i n cia 1 A f fa i r s f o 1~ 1 E! a tJ .:L n g l·. he money in his distr::ict which I a n n o u n c e d d u r i n q !: h e e 1 e c 1:. i o n ,,-o r water and sewer and road rE!COnstruct . .ion, r·.ight to l:.ho penny, Mr. Speaker. fie has honor·ed at Ieasl: onE! colnln.i.LIIwnt, be it all jn his own districL. No. 12 FU)99

Mr. SpeakE!r, I t.~Jant to address the resolution I have on the Order Paper which deals with a very serious situation, a situation which is of critical importanCE! to all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, and very important to the future and the financial ini:E!grity of this ProvincE! in the long term. The first part of the resolution reads: "WHEREAS tlw previous Libera] Administ:ral~.i.on enl":er·ed into an agr·eE!ITl€:!nt for thE! deVE!loprrwnt of Lhe UppE!ln Chur·chill hydro ---c::~lectr·ic potential which has seen Hydro Quebec reap from the venture profits which are now estimated to be approximately $800 million annualJ.y; and

WHEREAS the Government Newfoundland dnd Labrador comparison receives in the of ~~12 million annually .. " of by or·der [ mJght haVE! to correct that. In readJng through the 1988 Annual Report of Newfoundland Hydro, it ge!l~s somet.hi .ng likE! $21.9 rrdJ.lion paid in dividends to Hydro by CF(L)Co this YE!ar- thE! minister might want to address that. Nevertheless, regardless of which it is, $12 million or $21 million, Mr.

SpE~aker, the fact rE!rnains that thE! previous Liberal GovernmE!nt. entered into an agreement some time ago with the Government of QuPbec and with Hydro QuebE:1c, which has seen tremendous resources of this Province given away and given away for a sixty-five year contract. Mr.

Speaker·, that has rE•sulted Jn QUE!buc ga:ining al: l:his point in tjrnE:1 around $800 miJl:.ion a year· profit from powc~r gE!rlE!rated .in Labr·ador· and sold t.o QUE!~Wc, and L600 June 14-, 1989 Vol XU thE!Y in turn sE:1J.ling i.t ei.t:hE!r' to their own industrial and domestic consumers or peddling it in the Eastern United States market, which :is a vE~r ·y large mar·ket. fo(' ·l~hem. Obvious1y that rnedns l~haL Newfoundland has beE!I'J dE!n::i ed fo1n that sixty ---fiVE! year pE!r:i .od a normal rate of return on that resource.

Wo are not rE!CEd.v i.nq a fair shar·e of the economic rE!Ill. from that resource, and the contract is an unconscionable contract: by any standdrds as a result of that. Do you agree w::ith that? PREMIER WELLS : I agree it is unconscionable . MR. WIND~)OF~: It is uncons c:ionable. T am dllldlnd that the Premi.er agrees it js unconscionable, i.n view oF his actions as being par·t of' Lh~'· government that signed that agr'E!E!ITIE!n ·t. PREMIER WELLS: No. MR. WINDSOR : No? HE• IAJas not part: oF Uw government, he :is suggE!stin<:OJ? HE! was, Mr .

SpeakE!r, a rnernbE!r of Cabinet t.vhen t.he letter· of .int:E!Ilt was signed with CF(L)Co which gave LhE! rights to Hydro Quebec. nw PrE!ITliE!r, Mr. Speaker, bE:! carne a JnE!rnber of CabinEd: on Auqus l: 1. 1), 1966, hE! J.eft on May 14, 1968, and the letter of intent was signed on October 13, 1.966. That was a letter that agreed in principle that CF(L)Co wouJ.d sE•LI and Hydro Quebec would purchase power. A subsE!qUE!Ilt potAJer contract basPd on l:hal:. lc~tt.er o·F intunt tAJas s.iqn( :!d o n M a y 1 2 , l. 9 6 9 , s o t h e P I" l! 1 n :i (! r·· can stand and say ·!~hal·: hE! IAJds no l:. t:her'E!

IAJhE!n the potAJE!r' contr·act. 1,1Ji:-l~'; signc~d. He IAJ'ill not ad1nil::, of course, that thE! pOIAJE!In conll"act :.is No. 12 1\600

~. only putting the mea t on the legal letter of inb~nt that L~Jas signed on OctobE!r 13, 1966 tAJhE!n hE! tAJas a rnembc:!r oF Cabinet. And he cannot deny that, Mr. Speaker. NEd.thE!r can hE! dE!ny that hE! represented the Royal Trust in subsE!quent ac U .on in the court by the previous gover·nment to rEd:ain the rights that were given away by the Liberal administration in The Water Reversion Act and the recall case. SOME HON. MEMBERS : What? No! r4R. WINDSOR : HE! also, I nl"ight nol:e, represc::;ntod the federal government in cases l:rying to dE!al wi l:h r·egaining offshore rights for this Provtnce, Mr .

SpeakE:~r. So thE!re is tAJhE:~re the Premier stands on the Upper Churchill Development. H~:.> protests too much, Mr. SpE!akE!r : He is guilty as charged. As a result of that horrendous giveaway, Mr. Speaker, this Province has ovc::;r the y~:!ars had to spend some $750 million to $800 million constructing on-Island power generating sources to meet the domestic and industrial load on the IsJ.and, and we have been d~~pondent on oil .. -fir·c::·d thE!rmal generation at Holyrood. We havo no long--term assurance on the Island of stably priced power.

I have done a quick calculation and it is interesting to note· that while all this has been taking p1ace, just in the last t:E!n years, the energy equivalent of 20 mil:l:i.on barr·els of oil has f1own as IAJater through Uw Church :i.J.] River wal:ershod untapped, 20 rn i J. J i o n b a r r e 1 s , tAl ~d c h h a s a v a 1 u E! of $4 bil.l'i.on c~l: tuJenty do11ars a barrel. That is what has gone L60l. JUnE! 14, 1989 Vol XLI sjnce then, Mr . Speaker . Now, Mr. Speaker, we have been t r y i n g t: o neg o t i a l.: E! F o r s om c:• 1-i. 11w an agrE!E'ITten't. w:i.th thE!

GoVE!rniTlen t of QUE!bec and tAri .th Hydro QtH!bec l:.o negotiate the further potential of the Churchill lhver. We::; have gone ? through all the court caSE!s, ThE! Water Reversion Act and the rQcd.11 caSE!

I ITIE!ntionE!d, and I w::il1 not : bore the House tAli th going throu<::Jh those deta:LJ.s; LAJE! hatH! spE!nl: rnd.ny days debating those particular actions on behalf of thE! pr'E!V:ious govc:~rntnent. llllE! din e notAl in \:'!. situation where the lega] obstacles, I bE!liE!Ue, ar·e oul: oF thE! tAJay, and that j.t :i.s c1E!dr that: a 1: 1 e as 1: 1 ega 11 y if no l: rno r' a 11 y , - cer·tainly not tnCH'a] J.y bu L ] e-ga]] y ·- l:he CoVE!rnrnent o1= Quubc:!C ha s l:hc :o legal right to the Upper· Chutnch:i.]] potAlE!r until l:he year 2041 .

NotAl, t h e r E! a r E! s o tn e p I" o b 1 E! m s tAr.i l·: h that. We have a dir:f ... iculty tAii .th CF(l)Co it:sJf, Mr. Speaker, in l:hat if al: sorne po.i.nt in ti.111r! i.l ·. is clear that. CF( l.)Co :is not : ab:t c:• to rneet its finan ci. a1 ob1:i.qal::ion s, Hydt'o QUE!bec is r'E!qu:Lred t:o lrJdke c o n t r .i b u t i o n s 1: o c o v E! r l: h o s c:• obligations, in return For which they are giVE!n addil: :ional shar'C!S. In other wot'ds, Mr.

SpeakE!!", :Lt. is entirely possible with in the e x i. s t i n g t: e r m s of t: h e c o n t r· a c t thai: . if CF(L)Co beco1nos nul ·. financiaJ.ly viable i.n t:he ful:.ur ·e, that all of the rights to Upp or Churchill power could revert to liyd1no QuebE!C and l:hE!Y could Lake absolute and complete control of UppE!r Churchil.l . That is l:he sotnt of thing that: is j.n that contrac t: and, Mr . Spea hH', '!:ha t is a cril:.i. ca1 compon ~~ nt or= the negotiations thd t are Lak ing place, or thai: should be taking pla ce.

When he st and s up, the Prernic;r I am sure IAii _ll b ~ll us whClt is l:.ak:i.ng pJ.ace :.i.n t:hat. No. 12 1\601

regard. But it was a critical component and il: tAJas a preced(~nt. Any nE!got:iaLi.ons that thE! previous government was going to be prepared Lo agrE!E! to had to have a clause that guaranteed long-term financiaJ. stability of CF'(L)Co, the financial integrity of CF(L)Co. I u.rill bE! tnterE!StE!d to hear, Mr. Speai<E!r, LAJhen the minister or thE! Premier speaks to this question, LAJhE!thE!r or not that is still an integral component in these negotiations.

Nr:>.gotiat.-.ions have bn~::~n going VE!J~y favourab1y, and I rn:i~1ht add that in 1984 Hydro Quebec and NeLAJfoundJand and Labrador Hydro signE!d a lE!U:E!r of intE!n'l: dealing with nngotiations. Ther'e tAJas a letter of intent that was signed. Negotiations subsequently failed and other nE!gotiations tJJerE! ca.rr:i.E!d on. We haVE! been n(~got:iating in good faith with thE! GoVE!rnrrtE!nt of QUE!bE!C now For a number of y~;:~ars and making considerable progress.

T h E:~ P r· e t'n i E! r c a n s a y , a s I h e a r d him say a couple of days ago on t:elevision, that thE!re has been no substantial progress and that we are not even close to an agn~E!ment. I LAJouJ.d bE·~~ to d:i.ffer, Mr. SpeakE!r. Thr::!re has ber:Hl a tremendous amount of progrE!SS madE! at the nE!gotiat:i.ng levE:~l, at the offid.als 1 lE!Vel in nE!gotiating an agreement. At least there was. ThE! question rE!rncdns, tJ.JhE!rE! is it. now? MR. R. AYLWAIW: (Inaudib1e) he mentioned in his s t.a tetnE!nt. MR.

WINDSOR: Well , that as I read resolution: :i.s tAJhal~ I thE! nc~xt 1._602 JUI1E! 1.4-, 1.989 arn corn:ing to part of the Vol XLI 11WhPrE•as nE!got:i.at.:ions hew<:• recently been progressing very favourab1y betLAJE!E!n Hydro QuE!bE!C and the Government of Quebec on the one sj_dE' and Newfounc!J.and Hydro and the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador (under the Progressive Conservative Administration) on ·Uw other s:.i.de, in reference to developing the overalJ. rE!Source potE!nt::i.al of tlw Churchill River Watershed and other hydro-electric potential of Labrador; d.nd W fl ERE AS t. h P s e n e ~~ o t :i at·. :i on~=. . t.vf! r' P based on tho recovery by Net,~,.Jfouncl1and and l..abr'adoJ~ of soJilE'! portion oF thE! econoiJr.Lc l"ent: gi.r.JC!n away by the L.JppPI" ChuJ"C h:i J 1 contract. '1 Now J.et me deal. with those two components.

As I said, negotiations WE!re work:ing VPry tJJE!ll. Talking about Lhe oue>r'<'l11 Y'E!SOUY'Ce potE!nti.aJ o(-' l.he Church i.1l lh •J e r Wa l: e r s h c• d n cd: j tr. l recovering some benefit from Upper Church·:i.J.l, l:hat also t.1.JdS a condition precedent jn any agreement we wou'ld sign, thcd: lhere would be some recovery of e c o n 0111 i c r E! n t: r: r' o m u p p e r Chur·chiJ 1. And tlwre was general agreE~rnent that any contr·act signed would ~~iVE!

NE•tAJfounclland a JriOJ"e favourable return on development of Lower Churchj11 in par"t'.ial compensation at least for what has been given away on Upper ChurchjJJ. ThE! second part: 11

Whereas t:he dE!Velopment: of l:.he LoLAJE!r Churchi.1l pl.us l:hu 'inL<'!rl~ie t:o thE~ island poLAJer C:JJ"jd ~~y~d.E!rtl tJJo u 1 d q en era lt'! ~li 1 0 b 1.11 ion in c o n s t r u c t.::.i o n a c L:.i. v :i t. y . " Mr. Speaker, $10 bj}Jjon jn construction activity dealing with the deve1opment of Gull Is1and, No . 12 1\602

dealing with thE! dE: 'VPlopment of Muskrat Falls, together producing over 3,000 megawatts of power; additional capacity at Upper ChurchiLl, a small dE•veloprnent at Lobstick Conl:r'ol St:lnucture dnd l:he inter-tiE! to the Is1and, as well as some transmission lines to QUE!bec. A] 1 of t.hat together represents about a $10 billion investment over a fifteen year period, creating thousands of jobs in this Province, creating a tremendous amount of economic acLivity during that fifteen YE !ar period, and making it possible, Mr.

Speaker, to attract energy -intensive industry in the f u t: u r e • l.ll h j 1 e a t: l: hE:' s a 111 E:' t i lfl E· e LL~rl.i nat i ng t h (OH'rna 1--fi r E• d e1E:~ctric:.i .ty generated at: flolyrood and stabilizing energy prices on the Island for the foreseeabJ.e futulnE!; meeting aLl domes tic and industrial demands on the Island and in Labrador, and still providing for considerable energy sales West through Quebec, which would give a tremendous economic boost to thi.s ProvinCE!, as lAIE!l1, and which we could badly use as we saw when the budget came down. Mr.

SpE!akE!r, a pr-oject of l:hat magnitude is a project which is of tremendous importance to this Province. Tremendous social and E!COnom:ic br-..~nefi.ts bol:.h in thE! short term and in t:he long term would E!lirninate our depE!ndence on oil, IAIOuld give · us trernE:'ndous industrial opportunities, opportunities to develop new industries. and IAiould give us tremE!ndous opportunity to open up Labrador . The impac l: on Lablnador itseJ.f would be absoJ.utely :incredible, Mr. 5peakr:•r. not only fr'OITl the irnpact of constr-uct:ion but from the industries that undoubtedly would follow .

And l_abr-ador tAiould bE! an oxtr'E!Ine1y attractive place to do that. 1.603 JunE! 14, 1989 Vo1 XLI NoiAI, Mr. Speaker, ·t:he Gover·nmen t of Quebec has to rnak1'! a dec.:LsoLon and they have to make a dt,!c::i.~;ion very soon. fhey need additional energy by 1996. It lALi-1] t.ake until 1996 l:o put potAIE!l~ on st:r'Udlll frorn Lower Churchill. So a decision has to bt?. mr.1de.

There is a window of oppolntu ni ty ou er' l: hE! nt,!Xt number of months tAihel~eby Quebec rnust make a decision on going tArith another phaSE! oF Jarnes Bay, which :is rnore expuns:.Lvl'· l:han LotAIE!r Churchill. l.t:d: us be! tJt::!ry clear that lower Churchill now represents the rnost econom ical energy source lefL unLapped jn Canada today. Lrc!l:. us nol: . misl·akt: :! t h a t . 1 t i s L h e rn o s t. e c o n o rn j c d :1 SOl.WCe. The qUE!StLon thEHl, t.IJr. Sp['!a.kor, t.~ . are l:hese ncgol:iation s pr·oceed-.ing? What di"C!

L:he :ilTlp1 ::icat~ion: ~ on t:hr!~:;e ncgol:: .idt:ions of the stai:ernents l:he Pre1niE!r flli. 'HJe and his position on Meech L.ake? I hE!iH'd ~Lis cornrnE!nt.s a fet..u days drJo as a result of his me eting in Mont 1;! be 11 o and ~Jew B r u n s t;..l i c k v..ri 1: h Premier Bourassa, and statement s at t r· i. butt:! d to P r' (! 1n-i e i" B our as sa . I did not hear the statements rnySE!lf, but I hoa1~d reporl:~; whE:!Y 'I:! he has denied that it has any implications. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I have information fr ·olfl or r:tcia] s of Hydro Quebec whLch indicate UE!lny c}(:!ar-ly Lha L t:.he Pr 'eln:ier· 1 s posil:ion on Mt!E!Ch l_akE! is ha.uing an (!XtrE!rn oJy negative impa ct. on l:he success ·oF t1·1eS1~! negot:iations. I am conv:i.ncocJ, Mr '. Speaker, that these negotiation s have st.a11'"!d clrast:.i cally bc•caU!H! oF the Premier 1 s position on Meech Lake.

I l;..las go :i.ng l:o ask LuheLher or not Lhe elect .i. on h;:~d .HlY :i.nlplj ca -L:i ons, lo~Jhet.her' Ll·1el"O lAIC I"(• dny conversati ons between the P r e rr6 e r a n cJ t h e P r o rn :i. e r· of q u e b e c prior l:o Lhe election to ensure that nogotiat:i .ons ~:;l:al1ud tlnL'i .l No. 1

c) L 1Hi03

after the elections WE!rE~ OUE!r, but that would bE! sp(:!culat."ion on my par·t. I IAJ:i.ll not mf.'lke thclt statE!lnE!I1'l:. HE! can s l:ill c1nswer it, :Lf hE! chooSE!S to. fie can assure us that that was not the case, but I am more concerned about Meech lake.

I am interested in hearing what the Premier's position is now going to be on the Meech Lake Accord in uiE!W of the fact, as much as he may wish to deny it, that his position on Moech Lake is having a UE!I~y nE!~)CtUue J.111pact: on th:is government's ability to negotiate an agr·E:!elllent. ~;.J:i.t.h Hyd1~o Quc•bec which 1.~1oill sc•e t:.hat. gi~E!dt development: takE· pJ.ace. Mi". ~)pE!akE!r, t:h<ol-t dE!VEdopmEHlt and that SE!t of negotiations tAJE!l~E! nol: based on NewfoundJ.and asking QUE!bc:!C to gitJE!

US SOfnE!l:hing. rhat was the case in many sets of negotiations that were held over the last number of years in asking Fo1n some recall lnatE•S. And NE!IAJfoundland feJ.t. ver·y s t.r·ongJ.y under· l:he Ter·ms of l:hat contr·acl: that they had the• d.ght. t:o r'PcaJ.J 800 mc~gawatts of pot.uer which they could clearly show was required.

Unfortunate1y, we lost those 1E!gal argumE!nts, thanks to, in par·t, the interjection of the Premier in his capacity as 1at.~Jyer for the Royal Trust t.uho LUE!re thE! mar· t:gage holders on the lease; the lease t.uas mortgagE!d to the Roya1 Trust, and he tAJas rE•prE:!Senting thE! Roya1 Trust in those two court cases. So, Mr. SpeakE!r, thE! question remains are these negotiations proceedings? Have they faltered? Is then· a po s ~; i bj.J :i.ty nOIAJ to g E·t an agr·eement based on a sound business proposa1? No cap in hand this timE•, WE! do not haLJe l:o, l'-1r.

SpeakE!r, because Hycl1no quebec and t:he Cov1:!rnlnent of QtH•bE!C neE!d that ene1ngy just: as much as tAJE' neE!d to 1_6011 June 14-, 1.989 Vo1 XLI have it developed. ThE! NeiAJ EngJ.and ~3t.ates need l:hi:tt energy, the Province of Ontario needs that energy. There Js a ready---made 111a1"ket. Il:. is a c]var business proposition. let us develop these resources together, Hydro QLJE!bE!C and NE!IAJfound]and and Labradoi~ Hydro, E!Xpoint them as appropriate, USE! thern on Island or· in Labrador as required, or in Quebec as required, based on a good businE!SS plan, a good dc::•al for everybody invoJ.ved.

We wJll r:3(;•l: an E!Cono1ny i"·e tul'·n on c.1ur· rE!SOUrce, flycJinO LU.:i.1] ~JE'•t a I"E:•Li.ll'"·l'i o n t h e i I" p d in 1: ·.i. c i p a t i o n i n 1: h (:! deve]opment, any equ:i.ty they nLighl put into the dE'!VE!lOpinE•nt:. nl(' c; o u e r nrn e n t:. o r C a n a d a , o f c u u r· s c , is cornrnii·:1:E•d unclt:!l" l:hE· i .. ol~.:cc•r ·chu r c hLL l DE! u E! J.opme n L Co I" poI" aLi on to 4-9 pc!r' CE!nt, so IAIE! have t:hH.i.r participation. It. is a se1f-f"inancdb1e projE!Cl:.

All l:hal:. :i s r E! q u :i. r· e d f r· on 1 t. he Co u e r· n rr: c n l of Canada is a govel"nrnuril: guar·anl:·.c!e on t.ht'! balance of the fundJ ng Lha l. would haue l:o bE! r·aisr,•d by Lhu I...OIAJer· Churdd 11 DevcO:.I OPIIIE:'rl l. Cor·porat-.ion. Nobody is r·equust.i.i·1g any gr·ant: or any ~;ubs:.icly fJ"OITI the! GOVE!rnment oF Canada or· r:r'OIIl anyonE! else. So it. is a straightforward business proposil:ion, M1~. ~'Jpoakc~Jn, one that will seP benefits for QUE!bec, one that ~;.rill seE! benE!F.·l.l:s for Newfoundland.

The questJ.on, thE!n, is why. havE• thesE• r:alks fai 1ed? flave the Pl"E'ITiicr' s comments on Meech Lake had the negative imp1ication that I say they have? fhe Final

section oF l:he resolution reads: ''THEf\EFORE BE IT this House?. dir·ec ts reassur'E! QuebE!C of No. 12 f~[:')OLVE:D t.hal .. L h<o! Pr·orn:i c•i" 1:o t:hj.s flr'oLJ:i.nce' "; 1\604-

·~ commitment to the negotiations leading to an agreement for the d~O!Veloprnent of the LotAH~r Churchi11 in th1:! spir·it of which those negotiat.:tons have beE!rl ongoing for the past seVE!r·al year·s. 11 ~~i11 the Pr·ernier, Mr. Speaker, whon he speaks assure us that he u.Ji ll in dE! 1:! d d 1:!C'll with the Government of QuebE!C in thE! spirit in which these negotiations have been carried on in the last number of year·s? And will he assure us that he will alter his position on Meech lake to ensure that these nE!got:iations can cont:.Lnue in that sp:lrit? Thank you . SOME HON . MEMBERS : flear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. SpE:'aker, I IAJanl to adclr'E!S s 1:.hE:' resolution in a little bit of detajl because, in part, we can agree with it. The wrongly stated and j ncort~ect parts we cannot agreE! with, so I want to go over· those. And I also want to use thE! oppor·tun:i.ty l:o let thE! HouSE! knotu where matters stand now and to answer some of !:he questions that the hon. mE!ITibE!r just raised, because I think they should be answered publicJ.y, having fir~~t. cor-rected the misstatE!tnents that he has madE?..

To dea1 wj th the resolution, it starts out with an inaccuracy: 11 WfiERLAS the prE!v:iou~~ Liberal. Administration entered into an agreement For thE! development of the UppE!r Churchill hydro .. -elE!Ctr.i.c potential. 11 That is a par·l: of LhE! L60 1:i June 14, 1.989 Vol XLI truth, but not aJ.J of it ., so I u1ould soonE!r see all of .i. t: ther·e. And you can see aJ.l of it there by 1 C'! a v t n g .in thE! tAJo I" d s 11 W HE I~ E As t n the prevjous LJberaJ. Ad rni n .is t ration 11 and ins E:H' t. these words 'with the unanimous approval of this LE!g'islature.' Then you have the whole truth. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIFR WELLS: So the Administrat:i.on previous with the approval. of this entE!red into .it. MR. R. AYLWARD : LJbera] unanimous L0gislature You are l:.he only onE:' h.c•t"e notJ t.\Jho actually approved it. PREMIER WELLS: That is right. Everybody did it with full knou.1l~'!dr:3E' aL the t.i1ne. John· Cr·osbjE!, Alex fl:ickiTian, Ccn·y Ottenheimer, rom H:ickE!Y, Harold CoJ.li.ns, (~VE!rybody, lTIE! incJ.uded. And E!Verybody thumped hts dE!sk oi.n approvaJ . MR. WARREN: Mel Woodward. PREMIER WELLS : Mel Woodwe:1rd 1..\Jas not in th(:~ l·lou ~;t:• at the t:i.me.

And it l.l.h"lS wide1y acu!pb:·cl by all of Lhe business conunun:i.ty in this Province, and a11 of t:hoSC! who ar·e now decrying this terrib]e deal tAJei~E! clapping evE•rybody on the back at t:hE• gr'E!dt SUCCE!SS of getting this going and par·t:i cipated in the undc:!r t ak :in~J and works and took the full bE!nefit From :i.t. -rhat uJas tAriLh the knowl edge that was available to overybody ai'. : Lhe L::i.rne, becau se No. 12 1\60~)

they all saw it that way. All that is available in Hansard for anybody who wants to look at it. So we wouJd be prepared to support thE! resolution oif, amongst~ ol~hE!r things, those lAJords werE:~ inserted after the word 1 Adrnoinistratton 1 in the first recital, 1With the unanimous approval of thois Legislature. 1 On the second rE!Cital, I checked on the amount and, wh:ile I do not have it with me, I think $16.8 million would be the correct figui~E•, bE!CausE• $12 million ts not entirely accuratE! at this s t.age. Tl~ is $16.7 net at thois stagE!, so technically the recital is incor·r·ect but i.t is 'in t:h::!

SdiTIC:! baJJ.pat'k. The third recital says the contract was in effect for 65 years From its beginning without the option for Churchill Falls Corporation to renegotiate. That is essentially cor'r'E!Ct. It :is in E:~ffect. for 4-0 yE~ars w:i.th Uw option in Hydro QuE!L1E!C to rE!nE!W. So it is not precisely correct but thE! net E!ffE!Ct of it ois, of course, Hydro Quebec is going to renew it so it is going to be binding on us for sixty-five years. So the gist of it is substantially correct and I will not quarrel with that. MR.

WINDSOR: In viE~w of the fact. drops by one mil the rn:i.l t:hey rate will certainly r(:~new. PI~E:MIER Wfll S: OnE• IJ.Jou1d cer·t.a.:Lnly think so. But it is not specifically correct. Th(! ·Four·th II WI-I Er< EM:~ I~ E!

C (HI t 1 y favourably recital is in negotjat.ions been progressing between Hydro er·r·or'. have v t!l~y Quebl:'C 1,_606 June 14-, 1989 Vol XLI and the Government of Quebec on the onE! sidE! and NetAJfoundland Hydro and the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador (under the Progressive Conservative Administration) on UIE! other· side, in reference to deve1oping the overall rE!SOUrCE! potE!ntia1 of the Churchill River Watershed and other hydro-electric potential oF Labrador. 11 That is not accurate. MR. WINDSOR: Absolutely accurate!

P R EM I E R l-J E L 1... ~) : I will giue the House and the Pt'ovinCE! an update on j t It j ~; w r o n g . I n a 11 o F 1: h C! y e a r s l: h a l:. they have been in power and trying to r'E!SOlvE• this pr·oblem, l:l~ying to dE•al w=i.th :it, they appear· to have:! done everything wr·ong. Ever·y st:E•p t.hE!Y took lAJas a t;_wong s l::ep and pr·oduc(:•d no resu] ts. TI'IE!I~e l!.h'<S one offer fr·o1n Hycli"O qt.1ebec', ::it tAJas rnade in 1984-.

Now LhE! hon. rnember rnade ITient.:ion of a CE!r·ta:i n doCUlllE!nt that: I tAJas kind or~ sur·pri SE!d to hear· h:i.111 rnakf• rnE:·ntj on of because the two parties had agreed to keep the maLLer confidential. I tJ.rill not: discuss it any further. MR. WINDSOfx: Will you 'l:E!ll us about: the cour1l:E!r·· offer made by NelA~oundland, too? PREMIER WELLS: Yes. I tAJ.i1l.

So I will not mentjon that, but t·:hc1t lAJaS an ovent that took p1r'lce and 1 just t.~Jan·t.ed to acknou.JJ.t:·d~Jc l~ hat it did . 13u t I t"Ja s sur' p r' ·is l'! d to hear the ME!Illbei"1S CCHIIITICnt~;;, Jn March of 1984 an offer was made by l·lydro quebec that can only be i. n t e r· p I" c; t c; d a s a ':3 r' o s s :i n s u 1 1: 1': o thE! govel"nlllE!I1t of Uw day, the:! No. 12 1\606

people of the ProvinCE!, could on1y be interpreted a gross insult. They were just toying with Newfoundland, that was the approach and -that is the only way one could interpret that. Now that is all t.hr:~r·r:~ has bE!en in aJ.l of the years oF negotiation. The talks broke down. Newfoundland made an offer in August of 1985, a more detailed offer that covered some of the topics the hon. member mentioned in his speech. NE!Wfoundland 1nade that offE!r'. ro this rnomE!nt, rJJr·. Speaker, there has beon no responSE! to l:hat ofFE!r.

That is how well negotiations have been going, that is how favourably they have been progressing. It has only been nearly four years and there is no response to it. As a rna t ter of fact, thr:~re tJJas not even any discussions until last July, so for three years thet~e WE!re not even any discussion on about it. MR. WIND~ :;OR : That is not accurate . PREMIER WELLS : It is accurate. MR . WINDSOR: It is not. PREMIER WELLS : The the officials who have been responsible for it have been misleading me and I will check the han. mE!Inber 1 s c~sserticin that it is not tr·ue. MR.

WINDSOR : They certainly have and I will document it. PREMIEr~ WELLS : I t~-.rill chE!Ck i·t, and if thE!Y hc1.ve given me incorr·ect infor·mat:l.on I will provide the correct infot~mat:ion if I cannot. table it L607 June 14-, 1989 Vo1 XU because of the confidentiality. MR. WINDSOR: How about a letter· f·r-·otn PY'(!I'nier Bourassa to Pr'EHTI:i.E!r PE!ckfor·cl dai ~E!d DeCE!rnber 1g, 1.987? PREMIER WELLS: Ther·e may wel1 have bE? en. Thet"E! were a number of telephone conversations and correspondences exchanged, none with any meaningful advancement of negotiations.

Negotiations got under way or were talked about . . d . . b ' l ~ aga1n J.n d ·:.LSCUSS . .lOn (!Cl;.J::!(!I'l :.1lC! P r· E! rn :L E! I" of L h :.i. ~~ f' r· o IJ :L n c e -- ] bE!1iE!VE! it tiJdS LhE· Pt"te!tn ·ier· of L:hc• ProvincE:' -- and the Pr·em:l E!l" of I. he! ProvinCE! of QUE!bE•c about Ju1y or: ]988. MR . WINDSOR : TherE! tJJet~o no tnE!E! l:.ings be t·.L\Jec:~n myself and Mr. Ciaccia before that? PREMIER WELLS: A rnE!Ed:.ing betweE?n the tninis t:rc!l' Mr. Ciaccia in July, 1988, ~i.!:; only tnE!Ed:ing that I l'h:'ltJE! seen record or indication of. MR .

WINDSOR : dl'ld the:· any Would you like the Minutes of meetings of 1988? March, 1988 and May, PREMIER WELLS : March and May? to see them. y (! s ' I 1.\J 0 u J d Li. k I'! Mr. SpeakE:~!~, noth ·ing L>di.~s donE! Fot" nE•arly t.hr·eo years. Then, <~11 of a sudden, there is a new expr'E!Ssion of i.nter·psl::. Thr:'!Y agi~I:!E!d that thE!Y t;.Jould rneE!t:, dnd the first meeting of officia1s too k p 1 a c E! .i n A u g u s l~ , 1 9 8 8 . T h c:• r' C! we r o f o u r t n E! e t i n g s b r::~ 11~1 c• c n A u g u !:; L and Dr::•cernbE!t~, 1.')88 .

And, in August, 1988, the gover·nntenL or · this ProvinCE! askc•d l:.he CoVE!r'l'liTient. of Quebec t:o I"E'!Spond to l:.h<:! of"Fet" No. 12 F~607

that this Province had made in August, 1985, thr'eE! yr,~alns earl~iE!r, to u.Jh:i.ch thei"E! had sti11 been no responSE! by that time. That is how favourably negotiations have been progressing. The Government of Quebec suggested that there should be certain stud'iE!S, and CE!ri:ain aspE!Cts of it examined jointly by both parties, in the interim. Those examinations IAHH'e cornpJ.etE!d. They agreed on a

schedule for having thE~m completed and for ha1Jing responses to them. The last rnerd:ing took placr:' on 20 Dr:'cernber 1988, whon thE! par·l~iE•s e1greed that all the things that had to be done and WE!InE! aglnE!ed 'l:O be done, WE'InE! done. Quebec then undertook to deliver its response to the Newfoundland position by January, 1989. It was not delivered in January. TelephorH;! calls were I?.Xchanged bEd~we~•n thE! hGad of Hyd1no QuebE•c and Ute hE!ad of Newroundland and Labr·e>do·r, Hydr'o at the instance of the head of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro.

There were some teJ.ephone calls tnadE!, I bE<liE!VE!, bE•twt~en the theri minister and his counterpart -.in Quebec. And there is sttll no r'E!Sponse. To this day, t.h(:~re is no response flnorn Hydro QUE!bE!C or the GOVl'!l~nrnent of Queb~:~c. NonE!. fhat is hot.\J lAJell negol~iat:ions have br!r"n progr't~ssing. Ther'E• is no responSE!, right to this day. Thr:~y had agreed that they wouJ.d do it in Januc~ry, tl-i!O!I"l tl"lE!Y said, 1 WE! wi 11 do it. j n Feb r u a r· y , 1 thE! n t h '~ y would do it in March, and therE! '.i.s sti.lJ. nothing. The eJ.(:ct:ion t.ook place in April.

Why was l:her'e not a rE!Sponsr:! in January, February or March? It had noHl'.ing to do with rny posit::ion on Mc:!ech l.akE!, noUdng L\Jhatsc.H:•ver to do wil~h i.t. TI'IE!I"E:! is still nothj_ng jn t.he tAJay of a response 1._608 JunE! 14-, 1989 Vol XLI to this ITIOITI~:nt. In Mont:r:!bE.J1o last week, I asked Premier Bourassa to see that a response t,l.) a s rna cl e . I d o n o l~ k n o L.\1 w h a t t h E! result of that will be. The fifth red.taJ., M1~. ~)peakr.H', is inaccurate in the sense that it is difFicuJ.l to cJass:ify lhose th:i.ngs as n E! got :i at ions .

It LJJa s a I" r:! q u C! s t made by Newfoundland, and there were discussions during four meeljngs of the detail in those requests. But that posilion had been put lhree years ear] :i.er', t;.ri th no tnE!Sponse or address by Qt.wbc•c. flotJJ can you ca11 Lhat negotiat-ions? nnd, particularly, how c: an you say t h a. t n e ~1 o t. J a l .. J. on~; were progress-ing very Favourably 'under lhe ProgrcssJu~ Conservati.ve Administration?' T hE! y we In f:! a rn E! ~~ s ! T h l:! y IAI e I" e no t pr'O':F'ess.:Lng favourably al: a11. That is the reality of it.

The sixth r'Pcita]: I do not. knuto~J if the ~~1.0 billion is ab";olul':.ely accurate, but it is a uery s u b s t: a n t i a l n u rn b e r . I t 1 n a y 1~1 P ll bE! accur'ate and :Lt couJd even be:· more, possibly. Tlw gisl~ oF .il~ is accurate, so I do not quarrel wjth ~it.

The seVE!nth recital: "AND WHEi~EA~3 the flrC'!I'TI:i.r:~r throtJgh t.hu pubJ:i.c position hE! has 1:akr.:!n in opposing the Meech Lake Accord has al:ienatE!d the Gover·nrnent of Qur:!bE!c thE•r't'by a] 1 but eJ.j 1n:i nat:ing dny possibility of ruaching a nE!got:i.at.E!d settleiTIE!nt IAri.th quebuc that dOE!S not include anol:her' "giveaway" of NE>u.J"foundJ.and and Labr-adol~ 1nesou1nces." ~3ee, it :Ls thai~. kind of po1-:.it·.·ica1 qur~r Lhat makes it impossible For· us to support an otherwise well-intentioned resoluti.on. T h e r e i s n o g o o cl :i n t u n l· :.L o n j, n l:: h ::i. s r·esolution.

It is just~ to l:t'·y a.nd score political poinls and No. 12 1\608

'- d:isplays no real. concen1 for the future of this Province and for the peopJe of this Province and for their needs . The objective is to try and score political points, if you can. The si111ple truth is, Mr. SpeakE!r, that nothing I have said about Meech La ke has any bearings on this. If we are talking about Meech Lake and government 1 s position, let us be totally accurate. I noticed the member did not teJl the House what his position was with respect to Meech Lake . I noU.c ed he d~Ld not teJ.l the House what he wanted done with Meech Lake and these negotiations. MR .

WINDSOR: Check Hansard and see who stood on division on the vote on Meech Lake in this House and see where you were sitting when tho vote was taken. PREMIER WE U.S : I am talking about the position the member wanted the government of this Province to take in terms of usi ng Meech Lake in the SE! negotiations. The former rninist.E!r' is not being honest with this House when he misrepresents this ·in this way and fails to disclosE! what hE! wanted the government to do and what thE! governrn<'Hlt of t:he day refused to do and directed that Meech Lake not be used in any manner in connection with Churchill Falls.

That tJJas the decision of the governrne~nt of thE• day, Mr. Speaker. So let us be honE:' St. about t.h:is, and l.E!t us not tnislr:!ad . Wha.t: the 111ernb(~r is doing is trying t:o makE:' things d:iffj_cult to cover thE!ir failure to do anything, to achiE~ve anything in seventeen years, and particularly in the last ten yE•ar·s. AJ.J. t:h( :!y have done is made matters worse and created a greater difficuJ.ty 1.609 June 14-, 1989 Vol XLI for· us in corr·ect:ing thE! probJ.ent in the long run. That is the record of their contribution in th{s matter .

They done nothing but rnake Uw t,uhoJe matter U.Jors('', achieved absolubdy noth.in<:J in tE:!Il _years as far as the Upper ChurchiJ.l contract and the Churchill. River water power gE!nE!r·ally LIJas concernE!d. Thal: :Ls the reaJ.ity of it. NotAl, M1~. Speaker, look at L.he tnE~solut:ion itself. 11 TI·IEI~EFOI\C IH~ IT RESOLVED t.hal thi~~ l·lou~d'' dirt?cts t:.hE! Pretnier · l·:o r'E!\'1S~;tu'r:~ Quebec of this Prouince 1 s c o I'IIITI i t 111 e n t: t o L h r?. n E! q o l: ·i_ d t :l. o n s 1 e a d ::i. n ~1 t o a n a ~11" e c tTl<'! n t r OJ" L h e d e tJ e 1 o p 1 n e n t o f t: h 1:!

L o t;.: <::! i" Church j J 1 . 11 I h d v e no q u r:H' i'' (<I with that. I have no quarrel with par··h .cipat:lng :in a d:i .r'E!ct.:ion, although I pref~:!r to see, and I 'Lh:i.nk I t~JOuld ask that. Lhe t:.h:i t'I~J bE! changt:!d to 1 reqtH~st. 1 Bocau~;e the goVE!rntnent hr.i.s t:o dct: a~. t.hc:· g o v e r n rn E! n t a n d h d s l: o \·.: .::1 k ~=· rE!Sponsib:i1:i.t:y, and t:hc flotj~;c cannot Jnea1ly di1necl: \·:he P( 'C::!rn·i.r::!Y' ·to take -the acLion. But if the Premier Fails to takr! l:ho acl: .. i.on requE!Sted by t.he House he! :is answerable to the House for it.

So 1 direct 1 is the :incotnr('•c'l: t,uor·d 1 requE~st 1 is the r·.ight L1.10rd. The PrE!rni.er dOE!S not have to take the direction oF the House. HE! does not have to respond to thc request. of the HouSE!, but if" hE! fails l:o respond to the request of the House then hE! ansWE!r··s t:o t:hc; Houst::! for it as he should . So change the word 1 direcl:s 1 to 1 rE!quesl:s 1 and I do not quarrel with that par·t of ·it.

I t ·.i s t h E! l a s i: p a r t o F .i l: t: h a t CciUses me d~Lff ic uJ Ly . 11 In the spitn:i.t of lAJhoi.ch t:hC!SE! neqotidt. ·iuns have been ongoing For t-he past severa1 years. 11 Tha l:. .i.s tJJhe1ne I draw the l:i ne. That . :is lhE! recipe No. 12 1\609

for faiJ.ure, thl~ sam"'~ kind of failur'e that has takE•n place~ over the last several years, if you look at what has happened and look a t t. h e r e c o ,., d , a s I h a v E! d o n e :i. n thE! last t:hr'BE! wec•ks. I have had a coupJ.e of rnaj 01n meE!U ngs w'ith the Hydro officials and the departmental officials to make sure that we were properly and fuJ.ly briefed on 'thE! exac-t: state of negotiations, l:he exact state of affairs at this moment, and I haVE! donE! that.

And whE!n I look at it: and SE!E! that the hon. member is asking that I carry on negotiations 'in the spirit in t.~hich thes<:! negoi:'idtions hc.Hie bE!E!n ongoing for the past several years,' I say no, I will not participate in doomed failure in thdt way. Because that is exactly what hds happened over the Jast Few years, due in part to the manner in which the former govE•rnrnE!nt approachc~d it, and due in part -·-and I haVE! to be horwst and sc.~y it, Mr-.

Speai«:H' - I expect in major part to the intransigence of QuE!I)I?.C, u.Jh.ich province has most of the time been virtually .impossible~ to dc;a1 with on these rnattE!r's, in terms of gett:i.ng any real, fair deal for this Province. When you look at the record of it, and these grE!at negotiation~~ about wh·i.ch the forrnE!r' rnin:i.ster t.vas spC"!aking, 1.vhat was happening :is Quebec was toying with the government; playing with them like thE!Y were childrE!n, and thE•y WE!rE! not responding in a proper way. That is exactly the record of what happened.

You can see the path as thE!Y 1ed thE! rnembE!rS oF thE! gover'n!TIE!n-t: of the day to beLievE· Lhat they were prE:;par(!d t~o do something, and they wouJ.d sit down, and then nothing would be done for months. They did the same thing recently. L610 June 14, 1989 Vol XLI The minister reFerred to the letter of intent a while ago. fhe government approach has been wrong. We ar'E! confidE!nt, i'~r. Spe<:'li<E!r', that we do h<.ive an opportunity ahE!i3.d of us to rE!SOlVE! this probJ.em. I would have to say that I am cautiously opt.iuris t .. i.c.

I am not prepared to convey the impression that th"'~ han. mE!IIJbur has conveyed, that a sel..t]ernenl. :i.s right around the corner, or was E!VE!r just around l.he cor-ner'. It was not at any time and it is not nou.J. But I beJ.iE!Ve ther(:! is a1·1 opportun.i. ty l":o do so111e l:h i.nq and IAlt:! intend to move very quickly. . I d d. . -1 l I . ]. 1a· JSCUSS101'l5 .. a~;· .. I'JCl.~< Jll Monb:!I:Je1lo tAI.il:h Pr·c:!llli<H' Bou1"assa. I a J s o h a cJ d :i s c u s s j o n s tAd i. h Pinern.i.t:!r' Pc~ter·s, and I th.ink l:hHr'u :.i.s an oppc.H'l.un.iLy that: u.Je can do sornE:;th'.ing, becauSE!

WE! t.v·oi.l1 do i.t the r:Lght way, to find a so] u Lion whE!Inc~ t:he forlllE!l" governlnE•n l:: Fa.i:1 ud rn:i.se1nably. Everything +.hey d:i.cl went wrong, I want people to understand {hat Quebec has aJl along taken an intransigent position in this, and that may well be the primary reason why the former government failed. No rna t t e r' w h a t Uw y d .i d F o r· 1r1 e r· 1 y l:: h e y may wEd1 have fajled. That does not excuse the kind of approach they did take.

When I have rnoi"E! t:iiTIE!-I l"eaJ..ize, Mtn. ~)pE!aker, I arn just about:. oul. of time,~ _., I lAJj,J.J. deaJ. w-.:i.t:h l:.h:.i s nonsense l:hat l:hE! rne1nber· lAJas speaking about about the legal cases and the position that I took. I represented l:.he int.eres ts of Royal Trust, as l:he trusl:ee for· the bondholders. IF you 1ook al:: thE• cou1nl:. documents, tAJh.ich l::hu For'lrl(;~r ITI::i.nj_st(!r obv:ious1y d:id nol_ do , you w'i 11 see very c lear' 1 y 1:. h a l:. thE• Royal Tr·ust Company d:.id nol. oppose the recall. In Fact, .it expressed approval that it cou1d No. 12 1\610

be done under the terms of lhe document lAd th I: hE! approtJal of l:he bondhoJ.cler·s. Because you have to rE!ITiernber, Mr. Speaker, l:he pcH.JJer contract with Hydro Qu ebec was assign(,~d as the secur·il:y to makE! sure that thE! bondhoJ.der·s, who put up the billion dollars that it took to buiJ.d Churchill Falls, would be repaid.

Anything :in breach of that that would diminish the power· deliVE!l~ed under that contract, could be donE! 1.~.dth the approval of th!::~ bondholders in a nw E! t i n g h e l d f o r· t h a t p u r· p o s e , wh.ich I have• no doubt: thE• bondholdE!rS wel~E! tota11y plnE'J::>arE!d to do. All Royal Trust wanted the court to dE!Clare, and all it asked l:hE! court to dc•clarE!, was that it must have the approval of the bondholders because otherwise their security could be j <::'opardized, and you cannot tl~r:!ai: peoplE! :i.n that lAJay.

That was the position with respect to the bondholders in that particular court caSE!. Then l:he statement whE•r 'E! they go back to October·, 1966, lAJhen a letter of intent was signed. There was another letter of intent signed a while ago but nothing rnat:E!rialized out of it. The contract was approvt:!d in l:hois Hous<::', Mr. ~ipeakE!r. The only approval that was given For the contr·act was done by this House, .introduCE!d by the l:hE!n M'inistt:!r of Justice, and subseqLwnt P. C . MinistE!r of JustiCE!, thE! Han. T. Alex fhckrnan .

The onJ.y other person who spoke to legi slation at the tiTTlE! was thE! then LE!clder of the Opposition, Mr·. OttenheilflE!r', and nobody vot:E!d agldnst it .. , not John CrosbiE!, nol: C:lyde WE!lls, not Tom Hickey, not Harold Collins, nol :. Ve1l EE~inlt~, everybody voted in fa v o u 1~ o·f i t , A n k M u r· ph y i. n c 1 u d e d . So it .is ti11'1E!, Mr·. SpeC1kE!l~, to sel: l.611 Jum1 14 ·, 1989 Vo1 XLI the r·ecord strai.ght and H: :.is ·U .lllE! for p~::1oplo to SE'E! this. Mr.

Speaker, I have evey confidence that we will succeed where the former government fa:iJed l:wcau~;e we will set about doing it the right lAJay, wi .-t.h the l~::i~Jht : motivat'.ion, the rnot:ltJaL.ion l:o achieve a fair result for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, not the mo ti vation to cast political rnud at the opposing politicaJ party, lAJh:lch ::i.s so1E<ly what rnotitJa'l:t:!d LhE! l·:hen gover·nment :, and t.hat :is LAJhy they have gone totally astray. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MFMBERS : Heal~, hear·! MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the LeadE•r oi l:.he Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT : Mr.

SpeakE!r', L\Jhal: a pur-·fol''lfl..'l.nce J a c e d LAd t h 1 m (' a c u J. p a s 1 i:'l n d 1 L\J c· can do no wrong 1 by thE! hon. l:he PrE!ITl:ier. A per·for'JlliHICE: !, Mr.Speaker, laced with provision of se1ect:ive i.nfor1nr:·d:-.ion, prov'.iding information selectively to this Legislature, and a pE!rforlllance. Mr. Speaker·, l:.ha l: has no sense of his tory and just-.ice to i.l: t.JJhai:soeVE!r when ·i t: COIIW~~ l:o wording a resolution when Lhe han. gE!ntlo1nan and 1ady opposib:! wure over her·e.

The hon. the Prelllier· has the lack of intestinal folnt-j_tudE! to talk about po].·:i .t:i.ca] guff in a resolution. If you look, Ml". Speaker·, thr·ough the resolutions i.:ilat this hun. <jroup present .ed t·o thi~~ L.e~JisJ.atui"C, session aFl:er session, day aFLt::!r day, lAJ(:!Ck aftE!r lAJC('!k, Whl'!l'l IAlf'' IAJCI"(! over· thE!I~::'. PREMIER WELL~~ : Ta.lk about l:hE! one 111all:C:!r al . hand. No. 12 f? 6 1 1

MR. RIDEOUf: Mr. SpE!aker, I tAJill whatever I chose to .within the bounds of taJ.k t.al k the lAJhE! th:.:!r' the han. gc~ntJ.(:>rnan :i.t or not. about about, rules, likes The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, to get up and try to justify failure, or to try to just.ify that you cannot suppor·t a particular resolution based on the fact that there might be something a litt.1E! po]itical in one of the recitals, is not a n(:!W thing, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. gc~ntJeman opposite drafted resolution after r'E!soJut:jon, and pr-esented thE!m to this House session after session where they would attack the government of the day politically, they would call us incompetent, thc,•y would say WE! t..uerE! failures, and we were doing thjs and we were doing that, so for us to bE! pointing out that the prE!sent government has not exactly E:!rnbarked on a l~oad of pelnfE:!Ct:ion, Mr. ~3peakt::~r. :is not something nE!W. The hon.

Pr'E:'rniE!r should not get so hot under the collar or E!Xpect t:hclt: bE!CCIUSE! thE!Y WE!rE! not perft:~cl: we~ can be pEn'fect in dr-afting so111ething that is going to rne,,.t with his pE!r'fectionist attitudE!. It is ncl'l:: poss:LbJ.e, Mr. ~3pE!akE!r', wi.l:hin the bounds of hurnan faiJ.uinE•, to do something that is going to meet with the han. gentleman1s approva1. Now, Mr. ~)pe:~aker'. the hon. th(:~ PrE!tn:ier tries to tE!Chnically.

VE!ry tE!chnicaJ.1y in fact, skah~ ar·ound his own presence in this particular Legislature when certctin nets were introduced giving efFect, or' giving aul:.hor-ity for the govr-..~rnrnent of the day t:o proceed to do certain thjngs on behalf of thE! Upper Churchill deVE:!J.opmerl'l~. ThE:' fact. of the rnaU:eln is I r~r·. SpeakE!r I and I. d.ITI l..6l.2 June 14·, 1989 Vol XLI not going to takE! a 1ong ti11w to dwell on past. history, that the Act that wcts introduced to this Leg:LsJat.u1~o in 1966 <.'l.nd pctssecl ::i.n 1967 was thE!

British Newfoundland Corporation Act (Lower Churchill River Lease Act) which gavo the authority of this l..E!g:i.slatur-o. and ownership through this Legislature, of the water rights of thE! Lower Churchi11 R·iver. .a was not the negotiated infamous power contract, as I undE!rsi:ancl ·it d I h b 1' • f. I '1 an as . aVE! -E!en or'J.e··· E~c. ] .. : lAJas not the infarnour power contract that lAJas br-ought :in hui"C! and ] a:i d on the l: a b 1 E! of thE:~ H o usC! -L n l: 1·1 e foi"ITI of legisJ.at.jon, pi"C!~;c•nl.c!cl lo t h E! rn ern b <:> r' s o f 1: h e H o u s E! a 11 d l·: h L! n voted on.

The Pr-ernj f!l" can ~JC l. up qu-.i.t:E! tE!chnica11y and say thai:. a'I1. s:ides of the flousE:. suppo1nt.c:•d :.it .. AN HON. MEMBER: You me ant thE! Up p E! r C h u I" c 1Ti11 . MR. IUDEOUT: The Upper' Chur-ch:LJ.l, yes. The Pr-ernier can get. up qu:i Lc technically dnd say l·:hr.~t <>.11 stdes oF t. he House sup p or· ted

r) u,· r t: a :in p:iE!CE• oF ler,:rislation. 1-hE!Y d·id, research sholAJS thE!Y did, but t.uhat they supported, Mr. Sp<:>aker, was the Act giving the authority to Brinco to develop the Upper Churchi11. It was not l:hc• pOI.\JC'!I" contract, and that is the big difference. It lAJas thP ~10VC!r'nlllenl:: of the day, Mr. SpE!dk!:!l", that entered :into the infamous power cont:ract:. It t.uas the govor·nment of the day that had blinkers on and must bE!ar U1c! po1.itical responsibility for entering inl::o l~hat document. No1..u that does not: solVE! any o·F Lhe pr(>b] c1ns Lhat.

I.J.J(:• a r e fa c.i n g h e r e 1: o d a y , b 1..1 1: n cd l:. h u r' does it solve t h (! pro b] e 1n, M 1··· . Speaker, .if the Leader of the gover'nlllent :is go.:i.ng to ~~el:: up and sanctimoniously Lr·y Lo hi..do undr~ln No. 12 R612

the umbrella of a piece of legislatj .on that was not in fctct what _ hE! said it LudS. ~)o, in o1~dE!r to have any ]egitimcd.e debate, if we are going to have legitimate debate, the illegitimate has got t_o be p u t to o n E! s i d e , and he cannot slough the responsibility of bE! .i n g a lnE! rn be r Cl f the Cab i n e t that approved certain things at t:hat: po'.int in time and say it was done by the House. It was not done by l:he House. What: tJJas donE! by the House was a ptE!Ce of legislation that was quite diffel"ent, but gave the governrnE!nt. and Brinco the authority to do certain things.

The power contract itself was not done Cln the floor of Lhts Legislature. fhat is an hoistor'ic fc\ct that has been said beforE!, but the Prerrrier' does not ward: to agree w"i th it, and that is his right. Pf~EMIEf~ WELLS: They are parallels (inaudible). MR. RIDEOUT: That is immaterial, bE!CaUSE! it was not the power contract that was dr:!batE!d in thE! HoUSE!, it tJJas not the power contract that was approved by the House. Do you understand? Do you understand?

It t.uas not the poWE!r contract, it was not the sixty-five year inf<.'l.rnous gitJe at.uay thi'.lt t.uas done in this HouSE!, That. :Ls not lAJhat was done here. MR. FUI~EY: Crosbie approved it. MR . RIDEOUT: I have no idea. I am talking about wht-J.t the PrE!rn:i.E!I~ of the day approved of, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr'. SpE!aker, l:.he Pl~erni.::•l" today I;.Jotdd ] ike one to beliE!VE! that unless he starts off something, t.herE! can bE! no r-ight. 1.613 June 14, 1989 Vol XU approach to it.

Unless it is his c o n c e p t , u n l e s s i t :.L s h i s t h e o r' y , it cannot corne to a successful Fruition. lhe Premier has gone today very close, I L.\Jould say, Mr' . ~ipE•akor, to m:Lslei'HHng the pub] ic of this Province by selectively taking certain pieces of information, from briefing documents and so on, and saying 1 HE!rE! is what l:ransp.ir~ed, 1 or 1 Her'e is IJ.Jhat did not tTanspire. 1 Now, Mi". hap pE! n to k nOIAJ -- ~>pE•a k er', have beE!n AN HON. MEMRER : (Inaudible) . MR. RIDEOUT: some I: herE! of· dnd U c· ... L\JE! WP wjll.

Th~' ITiernbel " lAJhu introducE!d the r·E!Solution IAJ'i:1 l I:H:! closing the debate. I hope the hon. gentleman has his ears .as active thE!/'1 as hE! has t:hem r'i9hl · now. It can be proven. We know, Mr'. Speaker··, t·.hat . thE:!r'E! t.uas a period of tilnE! in· thE! early 1980s l;.lhc~n nothing scu1nc!d to happen betwE'EHl the Govel~r,lnent i:)f New -foundland and Labrador and the GovernmE!nl: of QuebE•c .i.n l:er'ITIS of those negotiations. We know we t r -.i e d o n s e v e r a 1 o c c a s i o n s 1: o l: r y to tap a tAri ndow oF oppor tu nfty to get thP negotiations started up.

We know that several ministers, and that can be do~umented, including a fonrH:H' Leader' of Lhc! Opposition who was a 1rr.in:is LcH' at one time in the government over ther-e, tr:ied to gcet riE'<::Jotial:.ions started, and they neVE!r, nevE•r' d::i.cl get st.al~ted. But, Mr . ~3p!;~akE!r, .in early 1988 the then Minister of Energy, the present member For Mount: PE!ar-1, by h:i.~~ OlAJn decision of go :in g to v ·i_ s i t U1 e M ·i. n ·i s L E! r' in Qu ebE!C, and t:hen w:i.th f'Lwther' follow -up by himself and the PI"E!I'niE!t'', IA.Ias able to get sorneth:i n~J No. 12 1~613

star't.E!d. It. rrd.ght bE! aJ.r:ight. for the PrE!Jn:i.1:!r of today to fault ho1.u wo approachE!d :it. or Luhat. WE:~ did, but it is not factually correct fo1n thE! PrerniE!r Lo say that nothing happened, and nothing happened. In fact., Mr. ~;p,:!aker·, what is correct, and what can be documented, is that f01n thE! first time in perhaps a dE!Cade or· morE:~, for the first time in several yr:~ars there see1ned to be>. a gc::~nuinE! willingness on the part. of the Government of Quebec to try to n1ove t.hosli:~ negot.:i.at:Lons a1ong. rhat can be proven.

For the first time, Ml". ~)peakE!r, it 1.uas agreed that certain parameters would be topics of discussion and negotiation bE!t.lAJC::!C!n a tE!dlll of officials representing Newfoundland and a team of officials representing Quebec. For th!i:~ first tilllE!, Mr. SpeakE! In, items, having been identified, welnE! dealt lAr.i. th, and it~ t.uas QUE!bec coming and saying 'We want. to deal w:ith the global picture,' Mr. Speaker. It was Quebec corning t:o Newfoundland and Labrador, after we had :initiatE!d this pr'ocess, say·ing 1 Why do we not I':!Xpand this somewhat?

Why do we not include this area of negotiation as we1J?' And a lot. oF progres~~, a great deal of progress, Mr. SpE•akE!In, was made. And it is VE!ry untruthful, numbE!r' one .. _ I suppose politically you cannot say anything about being unfair, anything is fair in love and war - to suggest that no progress was made, nothin~1 happenE!d, it t.uas failure, it uJas doom, as the::~ Pt"E!mier said in this flouse today. There t.~-Jas a loi: of progr'E!SS, Mr. Speaker·. For examp1P, there lJ.Jas progress between both parties in dc,~t.enn:lrdng onu~ and for· aJ1 the t;iabil.i t·:y, or lack therE!

Of, of the L614 June 14-, 1989 Vo1 X l.I Upper Churchill project itself. Churchill Falls/Newfoundland and Labrador· Cor·poration. Ther·e lAJC.H a lot. of PJ"ogress, and bo'ch si.dE:·s agr~~E!d IAJhat: had to bu donE~ L·.o Jnaku that corporation financially viablE! for thE! long tE!rJrJ.

RE!Ccwse rnemb~~rs oppo~d l:E! may or· may no l: know that unless there are changes to the present financing arrangements of the Churchill Falls (Labrador) Corporation, it is possibJ.e, under that. :l.nfamotJS agrE!~HilE!I'lt, for conl:rol of l:hdl: corporation to go from this Pr·ovinCE! to HydJ"o Quc:!I:JHc. [l: 1.s possible that if Lhe Church:lJ1 Falls (l_abrador) Co!"por··at.'Lon dous not I"E!CE!ive suffic:-:i,ent. .inco111e Lo do its capital improvements and E•xpans'ion and pay :i l:.s bj -,-1 s, thcr1 H y d r o Q u E! b E! c h a s a i" ·.i. <:;J h 1:. 1·: o d o i. t. and, correspondingly, take shares away from Newfoundland and Labrador·.

A Jot of progr·es s wa~; made in that regard. A lot of progres~~ IAJdS ITJade, MJ". Spc•akE:·r·, :in determining· the technical upgrading of the Upper Churchill soite itself in ordoin l:o cai'-ry out repairs that would guarantee the technical integrity of the project for thE:~ nE!Xt seuer·al decades. Ther·e was a lot of proglnt:!SS ITidde in corning to undE~r·st.andj_ngs that wo u 1 d increase thE! output, f o I" example, of the Upper· Churchill project itself. There was progress rnade in dut.E•r'Jrdn:i.n~J what k ·i n c! of E! n g i n E!

E! r· i ng ·s 1": u d y 1·1 d d '1: o be undertaken lAdt.h ice FJot.~Js and ice measurements and water measurements and all of that to d~~ tennine whE!ther or· not l:he engineering work that was done for the development of the Lower Chu r· chi 11 neNled to bl'! l1P<,:J l"aded, or whether the cost estimates were now in thE! same ba11par·k. So for· thE! hon. l::he Pre1n.'Ler·, P.!Jr. SpC'!aker, to stand up :.i.n Lh:i.s flousr• today and say not:h:ing l:i"anspiJ"ed, No. 12 R 6 J.lj.

no progress was madE•, noth-ing took pJ.ace, i.s factuaJ.J.y :incorTect. It i.s just nol: corrE!Ct. If Un:! Premier, Mr. Speaker, is SUCCE!SSfUl, and WE! will see if hE! is, in getting an agrE!E!ITI(:~nt on the Upper Churchill and Lower ChurchiJ.l deVE!loprnE!nts wi.J.l not have to do all of thE! things {:hat were carried out by Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and Quebec, Mr. Speaker. MR. FLIGHT: Ncd:ionalizat.ion . Ml~. IUDEOUT: Mr'. ~)peakel", the should know nationalization. nationaliLe a industries before so is over. han. all gent1E!rnan about havE! t:o for·es t He might few the next year 01~ Mr.

Spc:!aker·, all of those things that WE!l~e carried on in tE!chnical evaluations, engineering evaluations, coming to undc~1~standinr:3s on tht~ financial integr'ity of CF(L)Co itself, a1] of thosE• th'ings tAic::~re pr'ogress, all of those things were things that WE! could nevc::~r get l:o talk about . They were only things that we could get to dream about before in tE!rms of deaJ.ing with Quebec, Mr. ~3pE!akE!I~. So it is not right, -.it is not !:ruthful For the Prerni(;'r to say that those things did not take place. And th(~y took place, Mr'.

Speaker, and because they took pJ.aCE! the negotiations and the framework for negotiations are now furthE!r along, much further a] ong than ever they were before between Newfoundland and Labrador and QuE! b"! c, rnu c h fur UH>. r. Th ('. P-r-(:orni e r' doc:>s not have t.o go back, nor' do the officials for' both s idE•s have~ to go back and do all those things OVE!r' again. We w·L 11 no ·t take:• f.inal c1~c~dit L615 JUnE! ]_4., 1989 Vol XLI be c cw s e it was no t concludE! d , but u.H:! u.dll tclke crc::!dit. For Lhe ti·Lings tAlE! did ri(:3ht. And this tJJas done cor'n~ct.1y, Mr. Speaker'. ;:;o ::i.f Li'H'!

P ln (:H'n .i e In W a n t S t 0 C 0 rn e :i n l: 0 1.: h .i S Hou se and mislead the public of NE!lJJfoundJ.and and Labrc1do1n by giving selective pieces of information and then leav ing all of those gaps. Mr'. Speake!~, the Premier is getting like the old Watergate fellow himself, there is on 1 y 18 1/2 min u t.E! s oF gaps .in L he Waterford tapes and that. hung Richard Nixon. There are years of gaps :ln the informaL.:ion i:.haL thE! Prem.i:::!r prov:i.dcc!d l'lC!inE! l:oddy, yE!dr's and 1nont:hs of ~Japs, a1·1cl l..hE·n he selectively goes on to soiTlething c<l.se, Mr'.

Speaker'. fie:· "is bE!CCll"ning ir1fect:.ed lAiiLh l:hi.s business of pr'ov:i .ding a p:iece ol' infor'mation that shotAJs !::hE! t.JJay he· wants to see it., M1~. ~)pE!aker', but when we put it all together - MR . WALSH : What about (inaudible)? MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. SpE!c1kc::~r. tAJE! could have a t;ury interesting debate jn !::his LegislaLure on the early 80s. SOME HON. MEMBERS: -rh~:! '70s. MR . RIDEOUT : WE! could haVE! c'l. •H!l~y inl:(!l"C!S 1- i.nq debate, if the rnembE!r' f"or Mount Sco:i.o--BE!ll Island (Mr . Wal~;l·1) tAJou1d go to his seat ..

The Li.r'sL th:lng he s h o u 1 d know is t h a l: if he i s going to say anything he should say .it frorn his ou.m s E!a -t. Tha l: ·is one of t.h( :! r'u}E!S of t-.he flouse. You should not bE! in ~;ot nE!bc ,J(Jy else's pJace to disrupt Lhe flou'-~'-'' of Assc~rnbly. IF l:he rnemb• :!r For Mount Sd.o-·RE!lJ. Island IAJanl:~ :; l:.o talk about Utt:! c:~ar1y 1 80s or t:l·w E!ar<Ly '70~:, Mr'. Speaker·, and l:hu middlE! '80s it is possibll'! so t::o No . 12 rHi 1 ~:.

do. And you hear the Premier here today saying so sanctimonously, Mr. SpE•akE!r. that a11 I did in acting for 1\oyal Trust, all Royal Trust wanted was protection on behalf of l:he bondhold(~rs. fhat is alJ. Royal Trust, t.hat is the only position that Royal Trust took and I took on their behalf when I appeared on their behalf to intervene in those proceedings. WelJ., Mln. ;3pE!aker·, that :is not exactly the case. rhe fact of the rnatter is Lhat. the preSE!nt Premier· appealnc;:!cf in 1981 arguing aga·inst the Water Reversjon Act, saying that it was unconstitutional.

That is the position that the PrE!IrLier today took ·in 1981. liE! did not appE•ar on b€:~haJ f of Royal frust to lnepreSE!nt bondholders and say 1 W(~J J, tAJe do not r·ea1ly car'(~ one way or another about this legislation, all we want is to ensure Lhe rights of the bondholders are protected. The Premier went down to the court proceedings, paid by the bondholders in Royal Trust, and took a definitive position.

And the definitive position was that the legislation was unconstitutional; in other words, t:his legislature did not have thE! jurisdictional competence to pass the legislation in the first place. fhat was the position that he took.

He did ned: go down and do what hE• sa·id her·e today. rhat 'is anot.h~:!ln examplE!, you s E!e, Mr. :3peakeln, of whc:.~r·e th'is particular· Pr'E!m::i E!r on1y cornes clean when it. i s i: o lrl s ad v a n t a g e t o c o me c 1 e a n • and when :it:·. is not~ to his advantage to come clean then he gets Lied up jn legal gobbledygook. rhat is exactly what l:.h:i.s Premi(''l' does, and does 1..616 June 14-, 1989 Vol XLI well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: HE!ar, hE!i.'l.l"! MR.

RIDEOUT: I arn tE!J.l:i.ng you, Min. ~;)peabH', that legal gobbledygook is noL going to save the hide of this Premier in Ming's Bight, or Harbour Deep or Pacquet or some of thosE• places. It :.Ls not going to be legal gobbledygook that. wJ11 get his r1E!Ck out of {:he political noose. Thjs Premier has got to ·develop··-dnd he~ does nol: knr:;t,._i houJ to do :it yet, hE! ha~; not cluve]opncl it yet -a pas t·:ur·co! oF CUIC!oln':) c l.vetn t,._J:i.t:h the pub]:ic and t.eJJ.:i.ng Lhc• public of NewFoundland and Labrador exact1y what il is hJs i n t e n t i o n s a r E! .

E! x a c t··l y Ll.i h a 1:. i l: i ~' he j ntE!nd~~ to do a11d hot11 he intEHHJs to do ·it:, and not (.JEd: l:.'i.c•d up in selectjve pieces of infor·mation, not gr:•t: i::ir::!d up .Ln legalese that he would not know that there is nobody ouer h0re can see through it, or· you ~uouJd nol. know but the people oF N e IAJf o u n d 1 and an cl Lab r· ado r' co u 1 cl not SE!E! through 'it. WE! mtc.~hL not b E' a 11 1 e a r· n e d g E! n t 1 e ITI c• n • M J" . Speaker· SOME HON. MEMBERS: And ladies. MR. RIDEOUT: ·-and lad'il'S, but lAJE! hauc?.

E!llOugh E!Xperiencc:• notAJ to· bt:' abJE'! to 1ook inside t: h d t 1 E! a In r1 E! d ci r' c l (' t: a k e atAJay aLL Uw pizazz and a11, that and see exactly what the hon. gE!ntJ eman :i.s tryj ng to do. And what: the hon. gE!ntlernan tri,:!d l:.o do hE•r'E! toddy, Mr'. ;;peaket", i~:. nothing shor·t oF COVE!ring up f'u1n his otAJn fai]u!"E!~>. nothJn~J ~;hol"t of 110 t LAJC'l. 11 t: .in C) 1:0 i: E! 11 l: h .i ::; i·l 0 USC! h OLAJ he :.i.ntends to pU!"sue t:h:i~; 1nal:l:.l:!Y' in l:hE! futurE!, and nol:hing shUJ"l.~ of want:ing to once again se]J thjs No. 12 I\6Hi

Province Speaker. down SOME HON. MEMBFRS : Hear. hE~ar! MR. SPEAKER: the drain, Mr· . The han. the member for LaPoile. MR. RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it feels VE!Y'Y good to be able to rise today and speak to and 1 say important motion in loosE~ tE!r 'ms. Of cout~SE!. l:hE!r'E~ dl~E! part :s of :.i.t. t.uhich IAJC'! on this s:ide do not pdrl:icularly agree with. I tendE!d to look at it just to see E!Xaci:ly how well written i.t was in r'e<:Jard to trying to gE~t a mot:.i.on through the House.

Now, if we as hon. members are planning to try to get our motio~s pass 1?.d, one would think tMe t.uould leavE~ th1:~ political jdrgon out of thern. I possibly curl guilty of this mysd :f, as well, in thE! motion I put before the House just recently on the national transportation initiative. Now, I want to put forth a quesU.on first which j s: Should we 01~ should we not give .in to QtH!bec and Quebec 1 s position · on this particular hydro deal? ShouJ.d uJe give j n or not? I t..uiJ 1 develop this whether we should give in or not over the course of what I have to say.

The importance of the hydro deal is something that is tantamount to our futurE! as NewfoundlandE!rs and Labradorians. It is sornethi ng that we definitely need and, as was ~:aiel eca·Li.E!r'. :Lt. is needed by Nor·l:h America. Indus l:ry .in Ont.ar:i.o needs :Lt. and it. is needE!d by Newfoundland itself. Of course, t.ue do not have enough L617 June~ 14, 1989 Vol XLI hydro capacity for the near futur·e.

Just getting used to H now, getting the details of the hydro negotiations, uJe ftnd that 'J ·-11 t k J l f'f 'l . 1c WJ .... _ --.a E~ cen ·:.o ··J .···::E!l'!rl yE!i':lr·s, de p E! n d .in g on how l: he cons {: l" u c 1: ·:Lon of the proposed deal progresses. Now, what does j_t. rnr::~an to us? If you look at construction jobs, .i.s that all it means, construction jobs? Do WE! jurnp .int~o l:h:is thing feetfirst without any consideration for the policy aspects of thE! Meech Lake Accor·d? LEd: us say W(,' drE! goi.rtlJ l'.:o (;p:!l:. a. t-on of jobs.

I say a ton of jub,. because the numbers vary as to L\.1 hat t..u E:' E:! x p e c t can b u c l" l' d L c c! b ~.; L h e c o n s t: r u c t i o n o f 1: h E' p ~~ o j E! c. 1: . I submJt lAJO do not jUlllP fccl:f '.:iJ"SL .i n t o t h i s • a s h a s b E· e n cl o n e i n I~ h E' pE-ist in solllE! ca~;es. in negotiations for any project, by members opposite. We cannot always s1~e the fut.ur·e, of couJ~sc, and we do not know what will happen in the Future.

In refer·enCE! to l:he Mt:•('!ch Lc'.lke Accord and t.uhat SCllllE! of t.he possoib:ilil:'ies ar·E! iF w~:! lAJE!t~e l:o, as was put forth in the resolution, relax our position on Meech Lake, it says :in Lhj.s part here::~. 11 1'\ND WHEI~EAS l~he Pr·emiet~ thr·ough the pubJj c pos:i.tion he ha~:; taken :in opposing thE! MC!E!ch l_akc• Accord has a]ienated Lh0 GoVE!rnmE!nt of QUt:!bE!C ... '1 Really! Alienated the Government of Quebec. as if they could bE! any more aJ.:i.E:!natecl than thE=!Y ar·e lAJJ . th their own language issue.

Haue we aJ.jenated them or have they alienated themselves? fhis is somEd:hing we have Lo Jook al seriously. Are WE! thE! r'E!a~;on t .. uhy QuebE!C is aJ.-.i.E!n<.~i .. ed, over· Churchill Falls? I think ·nat. What causes this aLLenation? Al"E:' WE! as a pE!Opl.e her '(• in No. 12 1\617

Newfoundland and Labrador, as Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, supposed to take th:is sH:t:ing down? Do u.Je look at it and say, 'Well, Mr. Bour·assa ~ or :f.n Hw pas 1: r-~r. LE!Vc:!SqUE.~ ··-I think U.JE! can give up what we joined ConfE!deration for fo1n thE! sake of signing a deal to get construction jobs?' fhe way in which this resolution was put for·th seems to give us that sort of imprE!SSion. Notlj to look at ME•ech Lake.

WE! haue a document here which was done~ up by a for·urn oF .incliv i.dudls here in Canada 1..uho haut:~ put Fol~th an argument to the Court in trying to stop the Me(;!ch Lake Acc::Jrd in ib; cur-rent foi"ITI -and I should stress, in its current form. ThE!rU alnE• flaws, and likE! c;uaLi.t:y control 1..uh:ich is so necessary now in industry, in business, in management, in anything that is done, do we put for·1:h a vel"Y poor quality document 1:i.h! Mel~ch l..akr:' i n .i 1: s c u r r e n t f 0 I" In?

D 0 Llj e over·look the probJ.erns with it. and sa. y , ' We 11, wE! can -o u e r-1 o o k t h a 1: because IAJE! can deal w'ith it lai:E!r·'? But 'latE•r' may nevE•r come if you have to have totaJ. unanimity of all the prov:inces in orde1" to do this. With the tl"oublE! thE!re is now . to gE!t agreement between Canada and Newfoundland on things, can you imagine what it will be like if in t he f u t u r e Uw r· e has · to be any constitutional change within the Me e c h L a k e A c c o r· d a s i t c u l" r· e n t 1 y is and ~\JE! haUE! to haVE! all PI"OVincc::~s agree? I fc~el that that would not happen.

Now, I will read portions of this was handed around. The Meech Lake Accord -not the prepared by Timothy t:o you sorne docurnE!nt which It is ent:i.tled Constitutional official onu S. B.

Danson. l.618 June 14., 1989 Vol XLI It says, and I quotE!: before the court rul.ing, Bourassa stated that to ME!E!Ch Lake is to hurn:il.iccLe "Even Pr·e11d E!r r·ej (;!ct Qur:d:JeC.11 Now, do Llje really beliE:!VE! l:hat if we choose to reject Meech Lake that all of a suddE!n Quc:~bc:•c u.ri 11 ct"umble and bE! hurniliatecl and the whole province will become terr'ibly upset with us and prevent us from starting up this hydro deVE!loprnent l:hat they need as L\Jf:!]] as we do? I do not think so.

Also, hE!r'E!, <'Uld I quote~: 11 Pt~c"'tdc•t" [lou I" ass a told us I"E! cent] y to r·ccHi l:hE! histor'y of Qu:::!bt?c ouc:''" Lhe past twent.y--Li.ve year·~;~ l.u ~.f"C! Luhat tAli 11 happE!I'l if the:! Accor·d f<ri.'ls. 11 That is a "lhr·eat. It j<; dll implied thruat:. 1\c•ad tJ,Ji'ldL happeno~. 'We11, I>~JO aru go:-.ing to be bad boys now. If you do nol: support our position on Meech Lake and play baLl with us, 1..\JC::! ar·e not. go:ing to play baJ J IAdt h you', a~'; t..uas reitE!rab:•d ('!lso by a •I'IC!JIIber·· oF the federal. goverrnnenl afL.e1n 'l:hc election.

Does it not: sound a bi.l:. 'childish', I suppose you cou1d say, to assume thai:. a gouer·rnnunt is so nervous about their own C U 1 t U I" E! t: h i'l t t h :i S .i S t h E! S 0 d: 0 f thing t.hPy t..uouJd lPad Hwlflse1ues to? Also, ther·E! .is anol:her· pari~ hei"O which reads, and 1 quote: 11F'or· French Canadians, the language issue represents a co11ective identity and Pl":idE!. 11 Okay, th<3.t i S f i n E! . B U t d 0 E!

S t h a t: ITI E! a n t h a t our collective identity ~s NeJ.~Jfouncllandei"S and l...abr·adorj an~:;, a n d o u r· p r' i cl E! h d s t. o ·1: a k e a b a c k S(!at to Quebec's :1dontity r:.tncl pride, or their superiority complex, as I Lend t:o caLl oi.L, which is supposedly built in? No. 12 R6l8

This aspect of the Constitutional Accord Meech would Lake makE! one wonder about Quebec 1s intention. Are they toying with us? I think so. They can wa:i t. Now, possibly IAJE! cannot wait. Who knows t.uhcd: the future holds? Who knows how rnuch poWE!r' w:Lll be needed? We have projections, of course, based on scientific research and demands for power for North America - for the United States, for Ontario, and for Newfoundland itself.

NOIAJ, :.in the hon. rnomber 1s 1hesolut:ion it says: 11 rnake possiblE! the attraction of energy intensive industries 11 to our ProvinCE! 11 dnd would stabilize energy costs For the foreseeable fut:u1~e. 11 I haVE! some tr·ouble 1.uith that. ~)ure IAJe want to attract new industry to the ProvinCE!; we IAJant to att.r-act sorne industry, possibly, which is enE!rgy :intensive. But do we giVE! up our· agrG!t:!lnE!nt undE!r' the Tc!r·ms of Union, of which- I have a copy right here? Do we give up what we negotiated in that for the sake of attracting scnnE! r:>rlE!I,.·gy intc!nsive industry?

Members opposite are apl: to j urnp up and 1nake sure Wt:! know that. history has not tr'E!a'L:E!d US WE!ll in hydro dE!VE!lOpfnE!I1t, SO do WE! jump forth and say, 1Wel1, I guess we had better sign this regardJ.ess of the Constitution and giVE! up oul~ righl:s, bow down to Quebec 1 s intent.? 1 I haVE! prob] erns w:ith that, and I do no ·t think ·it is the way to get a resoJution put through this House. You SE!e thr:~ objE!Ctive, I suppoSE!, for member·s oppos:H.:(~ putUng forth a resolution is to maybe get it passed, or· to maybE! ci~C:!at:e dE!bate.

If IAJU a1"e goi.nq to Cl"E!cll:e debate other than having resolutions passed, I suppose we can be here talking for a long time, as was done over the last L619 JunE! 14-, 1989 Vo1 XLI two days by a certain 1ne tnbe I'; opposite. WhEit. does Meech LakE! mean For' u~,~ in its current Form. Well, not bE!ing a poloi.·l::ica1- schoJ.ar· J haVE! r'E!Sl:~ar·chE!d this a b:it and, as quippE!d · by the hon. Hw member from Burin - Placentia West when I rnE!ntionE!d r€:!search :in speaking in t h E! li o u s E! i n i: h E! pas t , I d i. d c o me across a few points. One js we would give up a centralized federaJ.ism.

We would give up that whereby Ontario, which ceni :E! r·s our · c e n '1:: r a l g o v e r n rn e n L. , b C! c <.11 n e s j u ~; L onE! or· l: he co ITHnu n i l:. ius oF o u I" cornrnuni.t.y, a~; IAJa'-~ sa.J.d by one~ mernbE!r of !:he governrnE:H 'tl: up a botH!, I gUE!SS we can cC\l] hirn, tAJhPn he said-·-MR. TOBIN : (inaud:lble) Tim flor·Lon L:he hockey playE!r. MR. RAMSAY: S 0 Ill(! 0 f. t h E! rTI C 0 Ill E! f' I~ 0 Ill i:.ll ('! r· E! , y t:! S . . ' But , 1 hE! sa i d , 1 i)Je iH' e ,'c\ community oF co1nmun:itic!s 1 NolAJ J submjt_ t-.hat that ·_i,; not the ca::~c. fhat :is incorrect . That is 1.urong.

We ar·e not: a c:omrnunj_l~y or communi ties. Ws ar·e Jnol~E! than thE! sum of thE! par·ts, mor·E~ than tl'tP surn of the whole. If you take two outboar·d ITiotor·s and pu l:. l·.l·telll on thE! back of a boat:, you can (3Q fas lE!r than you can IAJi l:h one outboard motor of thE! SdiTIE' hor·sepciwel". If a s a c o u n t r· y IAJE! a r· e to be co tn o a sum of our parts, we should be morE:~ than just ten pr·ov:i.ncE!'-~ and a central government. Together we can be qu:i l::E' a b:L +: lliOI"E!. Wt:~ can boa strong countl~y. We can ha1J0 our OtAJn :iden-t.:LLy.

IL· :'~ee11ts l:.o be somewhat thwarted by sume Pl"ou:Lnce~~ r·i~1ht noiAJ, havi.ng a nationdl idE!ntity. WE! haVE! r:·rent:.h No. 12 f\61 9

and EngLish, dnd l:hE!l"e ar·e French in thi.~~ Province <'lS weLL. But tAle also have to look at t:he country as a ne1ti.ona1 idenU.t.y tAJ:i.thin the global U..JOl"ld. What do we rept"esent? I ment:i.on!!:1d