Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 31 (36th Legislature, 3rd Session)

36-3-31

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session • Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVII No. 31- 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, April22, 1997

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley "ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Political Aff"iliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

17 37 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, Apri122, 1997 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mobile Screening Units for Mammograms Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): I beg to present the petition of Pat Petrash, Teresa Rausch, Dean Rausch and others requesting that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minist er of Health (Mr.

Prazn ik) to consider immediately establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Mervin Tweed (Acting Cha irperson of the Committee of Supply): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Flooding Em ergency Response Plans Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I have a minis terial statement, and I apologize for not having copies of it. I believe there are some copies that are being made available, and I can either go ahead-it is to do with the flood-and invite members to take whatever time they need for response or questions or else wait until I can get some copies in. Madam Speaker: Does the honoura ble First Minister have leave to proceed with the ministerial statement prior to the receipt of the copies? [agreed] Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, I want to begin by congratulating all the municipal officials, residents and most especially the volunteers of Manitoba on their united efforts to deal with the flood threat. In threatened areas throughout the Red River, I have been very impressed by the overwhelming turnout of people to deal with the flood of 19 97.

I also commend the government employees of Manitoba Natural Resources, Manitoba Emergency Manage ment Organization, the Department of Highways, the Department of Health and the many other departments who are working literally around the clock to assist the affected southern communities deal with this flood. They are certainly working above and beyond the call of duty. We cannot overlook the equally valuable support of many service organizations such as the Red Cross and the Salvation Army who have brought their much appreciated resources into this effort.

This flood, the largest of the century, will definitely be noted as one of the most substantial mobilizations of people and resources Manitoba has ever seen to address a natural disaster. The key to a successful effort, besides the spirit of the people of Manitoba, has been the co ordinated emergency response plans our communities have in place. Working with well-prepared emergency response plans, the people in communities along the flood path have very effectively brought all our resources to bear on this situation.

Manitoba's emergency response system focuses on the needs of a community from the community's perspective. Long before we were faced with these circumstances, all affected communities in consultation with the province had their emergency plans in place and in fact ran trial runs. Under our provincial legislation, local officials, mayors, reeves and councillo rs take the lead role in the first emergency

17 38 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri l 22, 19 97 response with the support of the provincial government. Local governments have the authority to determine when and to what extent they will respond to any given sit uation. Using the di scretion and authority they possess under this system, several communities have declared a state of emergency. These include the towns of Morris, Emerson, Dominion Ci ty and Ste. Anne, as well as the rural municipalities of Franklin, Morris, Tache and Montcalm. * (1 335) In some communities evacuations are underway.

As of today approxima tely 3,200 people are leaving their homes. These are primarily from Emerson, Dominion Ci ty and the Rural Municip ality of Morris. Evacuees are co-operating with their local authorities, and the evacuations are proceeding at an orderly pace. In accordance with their emergency management plans, reception centres have been established in neighbouring communities, and we appreciate their assistance at this time. Let me make it cl ear, there is the potential for the entire valley to be evacuated, and we are working with all the communities in the valley.

There are close to 20,000 Manitobans living in the Red River Valley. Any decision to evacuate the valley will be made in close consultation with the community officials who will implement the evacuation plan. Even with good plans in place, I can only imagine the anxiety and stress our neighbours feel when they have to leave their homes and properties. I know the stresses are immense and the people are beginning to tire, but I also know the people of these communities have no intention of giving up now. We will ensure the province spares no resource to sustain their fight.

The fl ood forecast status has not changed since Sunday. We are expecting the water to crest in Emerson later this week and in Winnipeg around May 2. Yesterday I went to Morris, Emerson, St. Adolphe, St. Jean Baptiste and Ste. Agathe to see the extent of the flooding. There are a number of secondary roads already closed, and many more are at risk. Numerous farms are already experiencing flooding. At the request of several communities, we have asked for and received mil itary personnel to help with sandbagging.

One hundred armed forces personnel are in the Rural Municip ality of Ritchot, and over I 00 armed forces personnel have been deployed in Emerson. As you are aware, last night the gates were raised and the Winnipeg floodway was put into operation. This channel, along with the Portage diversion, the Shellmouth Dam and various dike systems, will reduce the impact of the flood waters in many areas, especially in the city of Winnipeg. In Winnipeg local authorities are continuing their flood preparation attacks and are co-ordinating dikin g of vulnerable residences not protected by the primary dike system.

From the air both yesterday and this morning, we observed the diking that has been completed or is underway on Kingston Row, on Scotia Street and Elmwood and St. Norbert. This morning we went to Breezy Point where it was obvious that we are not presently faced with the same ice- jamming situation as last year. Early indi cations appear that the ice-drilling experiment we tried in this area had a positive ef fect, but no one can accurately predict how Mother Nature will treat us over the next week. She plays by her own rules.

Every night as we watch the pictures of the devastation the flooding has caused in Grand Forks and other communities in North Dakota, we are reminded of her power. Our hearts go out to our southern neighbours. spoke yesterday with Governor Schafer, and unfortunately there is little we can do for them but to show both the empathy and the co-operation that the people of Fargo have towards us and our friends in North Dakota.

The Ci ty of Fargo has offered some 75,0 00 filled sandbags to us, both because the peak has passed them and in fact they lost the battle in some areas, so they have these excess resources which are now being trucked to Manitoba. We are deeply appreciative of that gesture, and even though this is the most serious flooding situation this century, I firmly believe the people of Manitoba, the communities and the city of Winnipeg and province are doing everything we can to deal effectively with the sit uation. As I have said many times before, we have been preparing for the worst and hoping for the best.

April 22, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 17 39 I wish to reassure the municipalities, towns and people along the valley and the people of Winnipeg that the province will continue to work with local and city authorities to monitor and evaluate the situation as the flooding progresses. We will share all information and deploy all resources at our disposal to fight the flood. * (1 340) Als o, today, the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura), under our legislation, is declaring a provincial state of emergency.

This gives us additional abilities to take certain actions which may be required to fight this flood emergency. Let me be cl ear, however, this does not in any way suggest that we are taking any authority away from local decision makers. We have tremendous confidence in the abilities of local rural municipalities and other municipal governments to manage the situation in the best interests of their communities. They are doing a fabulous job, and this just gives them one more tool at their disposal should the crisis worsen. I thank you very much and look forward to the comments of our colle agues, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I would like to thank the Premier for his update and his statement in the Chamber here this afternoon. As the Premier has indicated, the work across our province and across our region has exemplified the best in our citizens, the spirit of co-operation, the spirit of community, the spirit of coming together to deal as fellow citizens in a time of potential crisis and crisis indeed in some of our communities. I want to applaud all the volunteers that have been participating in our collective community ef forts all across our communities in Manitoba.

I want to congratulate the public employees that are working on behalf of all of us in the provincial government, the municipal governments and in the federal government on our collective efforts. I also want to join the Premier in congratulating many of the service organizations that have been working on the front lines of our collective efforts. I would say, in terms of dealing with the federal government-! said it in the House yesterday, and I will say it again today-that it is our great desire to have as many members of the Armed Forces available as soon as possible.

We want people from the Armed Forces available to prevent tragedies from happening not to deal with evacuations after they happen. That would be our recommendation in terms of the priority of utilizing as much as possible the Armed Forces and resources available. We have much to celebrate in terms of the hard work that has been performed across our province, but we also have some tragedies that we have to think about today-a young boy over the weekend, a four-year-old who perished in the waters in our communities. Our condol ences go out to the family and community on this death.

I think that exemplifies all of our coll ective priorities. The material devastation that may take place with this flood and has taken place with the flood is serious, but the human tragedies that could take place and have taken place must remain our No. I priority. Human life is so important, and we must do everything in our power to make sure that tragedies are prevented and human tragedies are avoided. I want to say to the Premier that I recall a couple of weeks ago listening to the people in Fargo.

I remember the people in Fargo saying they were prepared for the crest of the Red River that was expected I believe about I 0 days ago. Regrettably and tragically, they were wrong, and the Red River of course damaged many communities and there was again loss of life in that Fargo community. Our hearts .too go out to the people of that community, our southern neighbours. Last week we heard the people of Grand Forks saying: What happened in Fargo will not happen here in Grand Forks.

All of us who watched the television pictures and read the news reports again were shocked to see the absolute devastation and were shocked to see the fact that that community was off by three or four feet in their projections, with the resulting impact of a powerful river running through a community and representing one of the largest tragedies in all of the United States last year. I am pleased to hear the Premier saying that there is no change contemplated today in terms of the flood forecast, but again, we are dealing with the change of three feet in the projections on Sunday alone from

1740 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1997 Friday, something that is challenging again all our communities, as the Premier stated. We certainly support the Premier's call for a state of emergency, and we too will do whatever we can with all of our communities to deal with the 20,000 people that are directly impacted in our Red River Valley communities. We offer any sense of co-o peration or any act of co-oper ation in this direct threat to the homes of those 20,000 people.

We hope that evacuations can be limited, but again I reiterate that personal in jury and personal safety must be the key determining factor. Madam Speaker, as I have said before, it is important that we work together in a co-ope rative way. * (1 345) It is also very important that we have favourable weather as the peak period develops in Emerson earlier this week and Selkirk earlier this week and next week scheduled to move right up north in the Red River Valley to the community of Winnipeg. I want to say that we are praying for good weather.

We are going to be working with our neighbours as the members opposite are and all members of this House are. We will be working together with our communities, and we will pledge our co-oper ation and support in this time of crisis to work on behalf of all Manitoban s. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I, on behalf of my caucus colleagues, wanted to also express some concerns and our sympathies as all members inside the Chamber recognize the current crisis that is facing Manit obans.

It only seems a couple of weeks ago when we had a snowstorm which shut down a good portion of the province, and once again we are facing yet another crisis. Through that crisis we have seen just a phenomenal effort from all Manitobans, young and old alike, that are participating in trying to alleviate the many concerns that are being raised as a direct result of the flood. I would echo many of the words that the Leader of the New Democratic Party has put on the record with respect to us working together.

In fact, we have seen the opposition parties in the House agree yesterday to not calling for votes in order to allow the government to be able to carry on its responsibilities with respect to the crisis that we are currently in without having to worry about its members being called to the Chamber in order to have a vote. It also allows members of the opposition to be able to be out in their communities where we can hopefully contribute to alleviating some of the concerns and crises that indeed are out there. The member for The Maples (Mr.

Kowalski) brought up this morning with me a couple of youths in The Maples area that were apparently brought into the sewer system. One I understand has been pulled. I do not know if they have pulled the second person. The Leader of the New Democratic Party expressed concern for the young boy that died yesterday because of the flood, and I think all members of this Chamber extend the condolences for that particular young man and share the concerns that this is indeed a very dangerous situation, and we need to caution all Manitobans of just what could happen.

For our part, we are going to do what we can in terms of co-oper ating and enco uraging the government to take whatever actions it can to minimize any sort of damage in as co-oper ative a fashion as is possible. With those few words, again, we applaud all of the efforts and extend our sympathies to all those who have been thus far so drastically hit, in particular down in Fargo, and as it comes up to Manitoba, in particular those individuals that are being evacuated, people of the community like Emerson who are so used to extending their hands to help.

No doubt it has caused a great deal of grief and we or extend our sympathies to them. Thank you, Madam Speaker. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): I would like to table the Supplementary Estimates Inf ormation for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report for 1996 for the Public Utilities Board. * (1 350)

April 22, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1741 Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourab le members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon thirty six Grade 6 students from the Nordale School under the direction of Mrs. Carol Hill and Mr. Neil Jackson. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for St. Bonif ace (Mr. Gaudry). Additional ly, we have nine visitors from the International Cen tre, Tourism Program under the direction of Ms. Julie Cushing.

This group is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Broadway (Mr. Santos). On behalf of all honourab le members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Flooding Sandbag Availability Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the First Minister, and again I would like to thank him for his statement today. Madam Speaker, people have been concerned since the adjustment on the forecasts about the lack of sandbags in a number of communities since this Sunday forecast had been changed by three feet.

Apparently the R.M. of Morris is out of sandbags, the R.M. of Rhinela nd, the R.M. of Franklin, Ritchot is short on sandbags. I would like to ask the Premier: What is the status of sandbags? He noted in his statement that there were some coming from Fargo. I have heard there are some coming from Edmonton. Can the Premier please advise us of the situation in rural communities dealing with sandbags and sandbag shortages? Hon. Gary Film on (Premier): Delivery of 1.4 million sandbags was received around noon today from Edmonton, another delivery from St.

Boniface Bag was made available first thing this morning of about 400,000 sandbags, and another order from St. Boniface Bag is available as of Friday of about two million sandba gs. Certainly, this will far exceed any request we curren tly have and should leave us a great deal more for anticipated future needs. Mr. Doer: Some of the communities that we have been listening to and talking with are concerned that the sandbags will not get to them before their roads are washed out.

Can the Premier please advise us of the timing of those sandbags and particularly the rural communities that have run out of sandbags and whose roads are being washed out? They feel very worried to wait a little bit later that that will affect dramatically their transportation options. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I cannot confirm the allegations ofthe lack of sandbags or concern about-in many cases, I might say, the requests must come through the local municipalities.

I know that yesterday in my discussions with people in local municipalities, the judgments are being made by the local co ordinators, emergency plan co-ordina tors and municipal leaders, and it may well be there are plenty of sandbags that are sitting there and choices are being made with respect to allocation at local levels, which we support.

We believe that sometimes- well, in fact, we were in discussion with people who talked about hoarding of sandbags by particular, either individuals, areas, communities, whatever have you, and it is very difficult for us to superimpose our judgment on those local situations. So what we have to do is ensure that we respond to the requests from the local co-ordinators and the local municipal leaders. We are confident that we are able to do that.

My only advice to the Leader of the Opposition and any others who hear these kinds of things would be perhaps to do a little further investigation to ensure this is not just a local issue. * (1 355) Mr. Doer: Perhaps we need another means of dealing with that. Last evening, for example, many of us were on Scotia Street, and we often would run out of sandbags. Quite often, in fact, we were waiting an hour

17 42 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1997 at a time for sandbags which had, I think, a bit of a dampening effect on volunteers . Is there any way in which we as MLAs when we hear about these problems, wherever it is, whether it is in Winnipeg or in a rural community-is there anybody we should be contact ing on the provincial level? Is the EMO working with the civic officials? Is there any way we can take our information, check it out and follow it up so that people on the line feel there is a way of checking it out on behalf of the volunteers who are trying to move those bags?

This was in a situation where the water was lapping right at the base of some of those bags on Scotia, and it was quite worrisome last night for all of us there, the hundreds of people who were volunteering. Mr. Filmon: Certainly, Madam Speaker, EMO would be the place to call. There is a central number through which everything should be co-ordinated. I would say as well that within the city of Winni peg, again, the provincial government is not imposing its priority choices.

To the best of our knowledge, the City of Winnip eg has not run out of sandbags, so what we may have is an allocation problem and sometimes there is a communication difficulty. I heard somebody call in to an open-line show this morning saying they have been trying to get through to the local munic ipal engineer, when clearly there is a number to call that co-ordi nates all the activities, and there are people in place who are intended to co ordinate the activities.

There is no question that nobody could get hold of the local engineer with all the demands that would be on that person's time, and that would be wrong to be attempting to make that call. Yet this person insis ted that is who he wanted to talk to to satisfy the situation. There are central numbers both at the city level and at the provincial level. Our best advice would be to go to the central EMO number and the central City of Winnipeg number, which I heard given over the radio.

These are the things that I think we should be advocating to everybody is go to the central authority and let that person then have the request allocated to the right person. They have a very good management plan in place, and I believe that all they have to do is follow the management plan and it will be carried through. Flooding Livestock Carcass Disposal Ms. Rosano Wowcbuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, as a result of snowstorms and flooding, people in North Dakota have suffered tremendous losses and some of those losses have been faced by farmers and their livestock herds.

Thousands and thousands of animals have been lost, and many are now in the flood waters that are moving toward Manitoba. I would like to ask the min ister responsible for emergency measures: What plan has been put in place to ensure the collection and disposal of these carcasses to ens ure that there is not risk of disease spreading or contamination of water? Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, the question from the honou rable member with regard to the dead livestock carcasses is a very important one, and it is an issue that yesterday we were briefed on.

There is a committee established between the provincial Department of Health, the Emergency Measures Organiza tion, the federal Department of Agriculture, and Manitoba Agriculture to put in place a strategy which would be targeted at what to do with the dead carcasses if they are not going through the system and they become dislodged or whatever in terms of being able to clean up the problem. Ms. Wowcbuk: To the same minister: Can the minis ter indica te what steps have been taken to move livestock from the flood areas and farms in Manitoba to ensure that we do not have the same problems here?

Will his government step in to move livestock in areas where farmers refuse? Hon. Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I can just inform the House and the honourable member that, specifically with the problem of dead livestock that may come down to us in the flood waters, arran gements have been made with our largest rendering firm, the Rothsay people, to handle all of the livestock. They are the rendering company that is equipped to han dle dead stock and have the equipment to winch them out of riverbanks or wherever they may be found.

Certainly, you know, I am reminded by my colleague the Minis ter of Health (Mr.

April 22, 1997 LEGISLATIV E ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 1743 Praznik) that we want to do everything to ensure this does not add to the already serious environmental issues that the flooding waters bring with them. My department is working extended hours with all of the livestock producers. A good number of the livestock have been marketed or are being marketed even though they are not always at optimum age or weights for marketing. There is some ongoing concern about some of the specific facilities, particularly with poultry.

Unfortuna tely, the laying hens, you cannot move them that easily to do otherwise, but the Department of Agriculture is working extended hours to work with the individual producers. * (1 400) Agricultural Equipment Storage Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Given that many farmers are in preparation for spring seeding and have their chemicals and fertilizers on their property, can the Minister of Agriculture or Emergency Measures give us an indic ation of what steps have been taken to give farmers direction to ensure that these products are properly stored or moved off property that is at risk of flooding? Hon.

Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, as the Premier (Mr. Filmon) indeed indicated in his statement, all responsible parties at the municipal levels and certainly within the Department of Agriculture have been working in a great deal of detailed advance work that in cluded moving grain out of the valley in late January and February with the co operation of the Canadian Wheat Board and the railways.

It certainly included, again, our extension staff in ensuring that particularly chemicals not be allowed to stay in harm's way that could then cause difficulties, not unlike the kind of advice that the natural gas people are providing to ensure that all of those functions are properly shut down or shut off prior to flood waters overtaking them. Flooding Floodway Ca pacity Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, thousands of volunteers have been working long hours in preparation for the coming flood waters in the Red River Valley.

Fortuna tely, in past floods, the city of Winnipeg has had the benefit of the floodway to protect the lives and property of residents livin g in the city. Residents of east Tran scona bordering on the floodway are apprehensive about the floodway's ability to handle the excessive water flows that are projected to be coming towards us. I want to ask the Min ister of Government Services to confirm the comments of the Water Resources officer who made a comment in the media this morning that stated that we are facing a one-in-200 -year flood. Hon.

Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): In response to the member's question, I think that statement probably is close to being fact, that it is a one-in-200 -yea r flood. Mr. Reid: Will the minis ter also confirm that the floodway itself was constructed to handle a one-in- 160- year flood? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, regardless of the centuries or the decades involved, the redundancy that was built into the floodway and the control gates and all of the structures that are associated with the protection of the city, using that system does signi ficantly exceed even the very high levels that we are expecting today. Of course, when we are dealing with the enormous forces of nature, one can never take anything for granted, but the volumes to which it has been con structed are signific ant ly in excess of what we believe is coming. Earthen Dike Construction Mr.

Daryl Reid (Transcona): Since there has been a revision of the level of the flood waters coming towards us from Friday to Sunday, can the government advise what steps are being taken by EMO or Water Resources to construct earthen dikes protecting those homes in those communities such as Transcona that are bordering on the floodway? What steps are you taking at this time in case those flood waters do exceed the banks ofthe floodway?

1744 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1997 Hon. Gary Film on (Premier): Madam Speaker, I just want to be absolutely certain that the member for Transcona does not leave on the record that the floodway could not handle the capacity. Last evening I was at the floodway intake and asked the engineers who are in charge of the flood way about the prospects and the probabilities. To give him some indic ation, the current flows that went through Grand Forks were 11 0,000 cubic feet per second at the maximum.

That will be added to somewhat as it comes north, and their current expectation is about 13 0,000 cubic feet per second. The flood way itself is capable of taking in excess of 100,000 cubic feet per second. They are currently expecting that they will divide it almost equally and that there may be 75,000 cubic feet per second go through the floodway and about 65,000 or 60,000 go through the city of Winnipeg. But they have more than adequate capacity, and there would be no need to be concerned about over flows from the floodway or anyth ing of that nature . I want that to be absolutely clear.

Autopac Privatization Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, I have a question on another matter, a very important matter for Manitobans, and that is the future of Autopac. The Conser vatives have never really accepted Autopac. They wore black armbands when it was established in the early 1970s. Sterling Lyon tried unsuccessfully to privatize it in the late 1970s, and even three years ago when they brought in no-f ault in surance, they did it in a way that shafted many recipients. They took the good concept of no- fault and have left many people right now suf fering.

Now we have the Insur ance Bureau of Canada runn ing a poll on privatization. After MTS, Manitobans are justifiably worried. I want to ask the Premier if he will do what he did not do on MTS and guarantee the people of Manitoba that he will not privatize Manitoba Public Insur ance Corporation either in full or in part without first ensuring the people of Manitoba have their say through an election. Hon. Gary Film on (Premier): Madam Speaker, I just want to say that I read that

article that was put together by a reporter in the Winnipeg Free Press, and I was shocked at the combination of circumstances that led to what I thought was a particularly misleading headline saying that we are studying Autopac. The member should know that at the time of the introduction of no fault ins urance, one of the conditions we made was that we would do a review of the operation of no-f ault, period, paragraph, and that is exactly what the appointment of Mr. Uskiw as a review person is for. It is part of the act, and we are fulfilling the mandate of the act, noth ing else. The way in which that

article was concocted to mislead this as to being a review of all of Autopac under public ownership is absolutely false. We have no intention of doing that, and I want the record to be clear. Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, that was not my question. In deed, I will be asking about the review of no-f ault, which I will be doing in a supplementa ry.

I want to ask the Premier again. because the fact is the Insu rance Bureau of Canada, those publicly min ded individuals who either want an increase in commissions from 5 percent currently to 12 .5 percent to 20 percent or the privatization of Autopac, are conducting a poll right now. Manitobans do not trust this government on privatization.

I want to ask the Premier what I asked him in the first question: Will he please guarantee that he will not sell off MPIC like he did with Autopac, either without putting it first to the people of Manitoba in a general election or a vote of the shareholders, the people of Manitoba? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I think that the one thing that Manitobans do not trust is the way in which the New Democrats politically manipu lated and mishandled Autopac.

In fact, it was an issue in the 1988 election campaign that contributed to the devastation of the New Democratic Party because of their former minis ter shredding records, because of their political setting of the rates with in creases that were in tended to be in excess of 24 percent and all of those issues in which they just about brought that corporation to its knees, and we had to restore its credibility and restore it to good management. That is what Manitobans expect from us; that is what we will continue to provide them, is an Autopac that serves

April 22, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 1745 their needs well with high levels of service and the most reasonable rates in Canada. * (1410 ) No-Fault Insurance Review Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): If the Premier once again will not put on the record a guarantee to Manitobans he will not sell off Autopac, will he then explain why they chose the route of a political payoff in the appointment of the review commissioner? Why, given the very serious concerns-[inter jection] Well, Madam Speaker, the individu al involved is one ofthe major contributors to the Conse rvative Party, surprise, surprise.

I do not know if he plays golf with the Premier as well on top of that, but I want to know why they did not appoint an individ ual that could deal with the very serious concerns that have been expressed by many victims. There are hundreds of people in Manitoba who have been shafted by the Conservative government when they brought in no-fault, a good concept, and did it at the expense of many of the people who have been injured in automobile accidents. Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I find it difficult to accept that the members opposite do not accept a former New Democrat mini ster of this House who served here for 20 years, I believe 16 of those 20 years in the cabinet of the New Democratic Party, and they do not think that he is impartial enough to be able to review Autopac. He is a former minis ter respon sible for Autopac, and they do not think he is qualified to review it.

I think, to his credit, he has recognized that there is good government in this province, and if he supports this government that should not be a reason why he has to be rejected as a commissioner. The fact of the matter is he does have the experience, he did serve in this House for 20 years. We do not hold it against him that he was a New Democrat. I do not understand why they hold it against him that he has seen the light and he recognizes good government. Flooding Safety Concerns Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minis ter of Education.

Along with spring, we get a lot of young people that are playing outside in the streets throughout the province, in particular in Winn ipeg, in Portage la Prairie, which was demons trated yesterday, and there are a lot of safety concerns that are there. I am wondering if the Minis ter of Education can ind icate if she has sent any sort of correspondence to the school divisions or any sort of notification so that we do get the kids being told of the dangers of playing around the sewers.

What might look like a safe surrounding is not that safe, and given the reports we have had coming out of The Maples in particular this morni ng-if the Minister of Education has done anything to that effect. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I thank the member for the question.

The deputy min ister is meeting, now is probably just finishing up a meeting with senior officials from the various stakeholder organ izations, superintendents, trustees, teachers, school business officials, et cetera, co-ordinating a whole series of actions surrounding the dangers of the waters that are now flowing over Manitoba. That will include a whole series of items, including the safety of students, their continuing education, school closures, et cetera. So I thank him for the question.

It is a well motivated one, and I want him to know that those discussions are being done in a co-ordina ted way with the leaders in education right now. Military Resources Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My supplementary question is either to the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) or the Premier. Yesterday, the Deputy Premier ind icated that the military was in essence on call, that there were several hundred that were out there. I am wondering if we can get some sort of indic ation from the government as to when does he intend on having more military person nel being involved in the process. Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, yes, we have the assurance of the federal government, and I believe that the Minis ter respons ible for National Defence is in the province today to review the situation on his own. We had senior officers from Edmonton, from the Land Forces Command in Edmonton in the province over the last while, and they have actually set up a temporary command post here to ensure that they

1746 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1997 will be able to co-ordi nate an instant response to all of our needs. As an example, there was a request from Emerson, and it was responded to in less than 24 hours with about 100 people currently in Emerson, about 1 00 people currently in the R.M. of Ritchot. We believe that they have relatively instant access, say within 24 hours, to about 1,500 armed forces personnel should they be required, and more will be made available if we exceed demand for that requirement.

So we do not antici pate a problem, and we deploy them through Emergency Measures Organization as the Command Centre. A request comes in from the local municipal jurisdiction to EMO, they tum to the military and access the resources, and the system is in place to respond to it. I do not anticipate that we will run short of personnel. It is just a matter of the chain of command taking its effect. Mr.

Lamoureux: Mada.-n Speaker, I would ask ifthe Premier would see to it that in fact we get maybe some military personnel involved in some of the potential security measures, whether it is from places that have been evacuated to monitoring or watching over some of the dikes, in particular for safety problems. Does he feel there is a role for the military to play with respect to those types of issues based on security? Mr. Filmon: Again, quite honestly, I accept the advice of the member opposite, but that is not something the Premier should be commanding.

There is a chain of command, and there are very, very experienced people in place, and there is an accepted emergency management plan that everybody is aware of. The security is in the hands ofthe RCMP. In fact, when I was in Emerson, I discussed that with the mayor. Essentially, that will be a ghost town with the RCMP and their security system. They wilL I believe, access some military personnel as part of that effort, but they will need specific people who will be able to address it if, for instance, pilot lights went out in furnaces, electrical difficulties.

So they will have people of all different skill categories around as part of that and they will be, in effect, in charge. Once the commun ity has been abandoned and is living outside the ring dike, there will be emergency personnel under the co-ordination and command of the RCMP, and they will access military personnel if they require them. Health Privacy Act Consultations Ms.

Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, it is not often that this side of the House cites Alberta as a positive example, but today I note that when the Alberta government decided to bring in a health privacy act, they sent an all- party committee throughout the province to meet with the public and hear their presentations. By contrast, this government circulated a discussion paper to a select number of stakeholders and asked for responses. The news for the minis ter, of course, is that all Manitobans are stakeholders with regard to their private and confidential health records.

I want to ask this minis ter: Why the secrecy? Why are you so intent on shutting Manitobans out from this process? Why is it not open, public and consulta tive? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker. first of all. I am somewhat surprised at the point of view that the member takes because what I have done is something that is actually somewhat unus ual for the process in Manitoba. First of all, the stakeholders committee. this is not the first time that they have been involv ed in the process. They have been involved in it from the very beginning.

They are involved in it in the development ofthe system. They are involved in it in the development of privacy, and what we have done with this particular draft is taken a draft legislative piece back to the stakeholders who worked on it from the beginning to ensure that the legal drafts of this particular bill are reflective ofthe advice that they gave us. That normally does not happen in the development of most legislation.

Once we are of the view that that draft is reflective of their advice and any other policy decisions are made, we will bring it to this Legislature and this Legislature will hold public hearings after it has passed second reading. So, Madam Speaker, this is a very open process in our own Legislative Assembly and with what has been done to develop the bill so far. Ms. McGifford: Madam Speaker, I would understand that normally the public would be consulted prior, as well. * (1 420)

April 22, 1997 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1747 Draft Legislation Request Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): I want to ask the minis ter, since the Premier promised cutting-edge legislation and since the public has been excluded from a secret process, if he would consider releasing his draft legislation as a white paper so that Manitobans might respond to this legislation which will affect the lives and rights of all Manitoba ns. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, again, from the New Democrats, exaggeration which does not, I think, lend itself to good public debate.

This is not a secret process. Since when is sharing information with the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses or the College of Physicians and Surgeons or other members that represent in a formalized way stakeholders, that that is a secret process? When we released that draft, we indi cated they should clearly go back to their organ izations and have that consulta tion. When we as a government want to consult with organizations-well, the former Minis ter of Health flags the Manitoba Association for Rights and Liberties as being one of those organ izations involved.

This is a very good way of getting, I think, input on a very important piece of legislation from people who represent a wide variety of views and spend a great deal of their time studying these issues, and we went to that group first to develop the principles on which the legislation would be based. We have had it drafted; we have brought back; we will introduce it in this House, and it will have extensive debate and public review in this Assembly before it is passed. That is the essence of the Manitoba legislative process. Sma rtHealth Postponement Ms.

Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, again, I flag the Alberta example. I want to ask the minis ter if he will do the sensible thing, if he will put SmartHealth, that is the collection of health care inf ormation including personal medical records, on hold until a health privacy act has passed the scrutiny of this House and the stakeholders, in this case the people of Manitoba. Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I have said very clearly in this Assembly, I believe the former Minister of Health during his time in this office has said the same thing, it is not our intention, our plan or in any way do we want to have the SmartHealth program operational until privacy legislation has been passed by this Legislative Assembly, and part of that process of passing it is public debate, public review, public hearings through our legislative committees, and ultimately this Legislative Assembly passes judgment on the legislation.

I can tell the member that the operation of that SmartHealth program will not take place, will not be implemented until this House has passed judgment and provided for privacy legislation. I have told the member that before, even if she does not remember. Man Globe Partnership Agreement Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier.

In the July 14, '95, minutes of the ManGlobe steering committee, Duncan Jessiman, a private lawyer, reports that, quote, he was asked by the province to see that this deal gets done, unquote, and gives a target for signing the multilateral agreement of August 11, '95, just 28 days later. It is further noted that MTS will, quote, not likely require a board decision to sign the multilateral agreement. Will the minis ter tell us who in the government directed Duncan Jessiman to, quote, see that this deal gets done, and will he release a copy of the multilateral agreement? Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, the research and development project which the member refers to, known as ManGlobe-which by the way is still operating with some 12 people working and has just brought on a new inv estment individual and group-! said to the member yesterday that I would check as to whether or not Michael Bessey had been involved in the initial stages or in the program. I took the question as notice. I am informed by the department that in the in itial stages Mr. Bessey did have some work that he did, which I have no difficulty with.

I am not aware as to any directive from anyone that the member is referring to.

1748 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 1997 Michael Bessey Role Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): A supplem entary to the same minis ter is this: Would the minister at this point endeavour to detail the involvement of Mr. Bessey in this project, flesh it out a little bit, give us a little more detail? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Having observed the member for Elmwood for the number of years that I have been in here, it might take a consi derable amount of time to explain to him.

This whole issue may be better dealt with in Estimates so that we can spend a lot of time pointing out that it is a research and development project which will benefit the people of Manitoba. Mr. Maloway: My final supplemen tary to the same min ister is this: While the minister is doing his research, could he come back to this House and tell us how much Duncan Jessiman was paid by this government for his work on the ManGlobe project? Could he also tell us how much Mike Bessey was paid for his work on this project? Mr.

Downey: Madam Speaker, again, the member for Elmwood never ceases to amaze me. [applause] That is probably the biggest applause he has ever gotten in this Legislature. Mr. Bessey was paid by the province and is available in the Public Acc ounts if he wants to check that out. If he needs a li ttle help in going through Public Accounts, we could probably get someone to help him in explaining it to him. Secondly, I would take the question as notice as it relates to Mr. Jessiman in any charges that may have ensued from that work. Tourism Advertising Contract Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): The Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson) and the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism have both indicated by not answering that the low bid on the contract given to Brown and Biggar in two separate contracts was not Brown and Biggar. We have asked bef ore. Will the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism tell the House today by how much was the contract given to Brown and Biggar communi cations-two separate contracts, two separate companies-not the low bid? Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): The information that has been provided to us and I am providing to the House is that the contractual arrangement was for $1 40,000 to the two companies. That is what we have told the House, and that is what it is. [interjection] Well, that is what the answer is. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, I will try to be cl earer for the minis ter.

By what amount was the contract awarded to Barbara Biggar, Biggar Ideas and Brown Communi cations for the promotion of tourism in Manitoba not the low bid among the 14 or so companies that were cited by both the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism as having bid on that contract? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, as was indicated on Friday and was indicated again I believe yesterday in this House, on the basis of cost and quality, Brown and Biggar- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Stefanson: I will repeat again for members opposite. On the basis of cost and quality, out of originally some 15 submissions, short-lis ted down to three, these two firms were deemed to be the most appropriate to provide the service. * (1 430) Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the Minister of Finance simply table a list of the bids on the contract, not necessarily with the names of the companies bidding but with the indi cation of what the bids were and the indication of how much the winning bid was? A very simple request. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, we go through thousands of bids annually. We provide the

April 22, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1749 information to this House, to the public. This was an open process. Some 15 firms submitted proposals for this. Two firms were deemed to be the most appropriate on quality and cost. The total fee as outlined between those two firms is $1 40,000. I believe that compares to a cost back in 1992 of close to $300,000, so we are certainly getting good value for the services being provided to the citizens of Manitoba. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Crescentwood, for one very short question. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, on a new question.

We have watched over the last little while contracts being awarded on very dubious rationales: Rimer Alco getting a contract on a two-year bid which was marginally cheaper than the company that was strongly and unanimously recommended on a three-year bid at a $70,000 savings. Will the Minis ter of Finance act to restore the confidence of Manitoba companies in the bidding process in this province by releasing a list of those who bid on this project and showing the amount by which the awarded contracts were higher than the low bid? Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, the last people we need any advice from in terms of restoring confidence of the bidding system are members opposite. We have a very comprehensive system that allows for open tenders and an open-bidding process on most of the contracts offered. We have also establis hed with the process usually a review commit tee that goes through an analysis ofthe quali fications of people bidding. So it is a very comprehensive process that we have put in place, I am sure unlike any process that was in place under the previous administration. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.

NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS Celebration of Passover Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Madam Speaker, do I have leave for a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek have leave for a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. McAlpine: Today Manitoba's Jewish community gathers to observe the remembrance and traditions of Passover. Pesach commem orates the struggle of the Jews to gain their freedom from the rule of Pharaoh, and it is the centuries-old stofy of the human spirit's ability to overcome adversity and oppression.

The prayers and ceremonies of this hol iday recall the physic al endurance and the spiritual renewal of the tribes of Israel throughout their wanderings in the wilderness after fleeing their captivity in Egypt. Our Jewish community is joining their brethren the world over in observing the Seder of other Pesach traditions. These are a reaffirmation of the strength of their faith, their heritage and their culture down through the ages, and it is a living bond between a people, their God and their very proud history.

Manitobans of Jewish descent have proudly contributed this and other aspects of their heritage to the great multi cultural mosaic in our province and in our country. Manitobans recognize that each and every celebration or observance represents a significant contribution to our community and the quality of li fe within it. In recognition and respect for the Jewish community of Manitoba for their achievements and their contribution to our province, I ask the members of this House to join with me in extending our sincerest wishes for and during this special holid ay, Passover. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Flooding-North Dakota Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, might I have leave for a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Thompson have le ave for a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Ashton: I wanted to take this opportunity on a personal basis to extend my condolences to the people of Fargo and Grand Forks. As we in Manitoba start to deal with the flood, I am sure many of us have been watching with horror the communities that many of us

17 50 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 19 97 have come to know well, our good friends and neighbours in the United States, and particularly in Grand Forks. I just cannot imagine what the people of Grand Forks are going through currently. What I want to do is reflect on the irony because just two weeks ago yesterday my family and I were actually hosted by the people of Grand Forks when we were caught in the snowstorm, and the people of Grand Forks and the people of Emerson on this side of the border were hosts to many of us.

We spent two nights in Grand Forks, and despite the difficult circumstances, I can tell you the hospitality of the people in Grand Forks, the efforts that were made towards providing for those of us who were unexpected guests in the city of Grand Forks, was greatly appreciated. I have talked to people who spent three days in Emerson and were hosted by that community.

I want to reflect on that and say that I think I speak for all members of this House and certainly all Manitobans in saying that our hearts are with the people of Grand Forks and Fargo and, I know, with the many communities of Manitoba that are starting to be affected in the same way. I also want to make a commitment. I know personally that I will be doing whatever I can to help the communities affected both here in Manitoba and Grand Forks.

In fact, when we were in Grand Forks, my father-in-law had the unfortunate circumstances of breaking his wrist and received excellent medical care in that community before receiving final medical care in Manitoba. So, from a personal basis, I wanted to thank the people of Grand Forks and say that their plig ht will not be forgotten by those of us in Manitoba even as we deal with our own circumstances. I know that many communities are being affected. There will be communities in northern Manitoba affected. I was in Split Lake yesterday; they are potentially going to be flooded.

As I head out later on to help my brother, who had the misfortune of moving to Ki ngston Row as of April I this year, as I go and help him with the sandbags, I reflect on the fact that it can affect all of us. Nature is very powerful in this part of the world. I think the community spirit and the international cross-border spirit that we have seen in the last few days bodes well and, once again, I really extend my condolences to the people of Grand Forks and the rest of the people in North Dakota at this time as we start to deal with the very same sort of circumstances. Ryan Runearth Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Wolseley have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms. Friesen: I would lik e to offer the congratulations ofthis side of the House and I am sure all members of this House t0 Mr. Ryan Runearth who was recently awarded a volu nteer award by the Province of Manitoba. Ryan Runearth is a 16 -year-old young man from both the Ojibwa and Sioux First Nations, and he li ves in my constituency and is a Grade 10 student at Tech Voc High School. Ryan is known primarily as a hoop dancer.

He is both self-taught and someone who has learned from attendance at many powwows and from learning and observing others. I think anyone who has had the opportunity to watch Ryan dance and to see him teach others is very much aware of the many, many hours that he has spent learning these skills. * (1 440) Ryan is recognized for living and pract1smg traditional ways and as a vol unteer teaching other aboriginal youth things which he knows to be of great importance to them.

He has had considerable volunteer involvement at Folklo rama as Folkl orama's youth ambassador for the First Nations Pavilion in 19 95 and 19 96, and he has continued over a number of years to vol unteer for innovative cultural programs in schools in Winnipeg, particula rly Gordon Bell and Hampstead schools. He works at lunch hours, he works after school on a regular basis, and he helps young people to learn ways which they might not otherwise have the opportunity to do and helps young chil dren in particular to make outfits for those who cannot afford them. His nominator is Mrs.

Brenda Longclaws, the vice principal of Gordon Bell School, and she recognized

April 22, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 17 51 particularly the example that Ryan offers to many students within their school. We would like to recognize today not only Ryan but his family as well, and in particula r his mother, Vicky Runearth, and we extend our congratulations to Ryan and to all his family. Coach of the Year Awards Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, might I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable Minis ter of Environment have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr.

McCrae: It gives me great pleasure to salute three Manitobans who have distinguished themselves through amateur sport in our province and were so recognized at the 3M Coach of the Year Awards Program this past weekend. The first of these individuals is Louis Nelis sen of Portage la Prairie who was the recipient of the Vince Leah Award. Mr. Nelissen has been a coach at the recreational grassroots level for 32 years. He has coached young athletes in baseball, hockey, tennis, badminton, and soccer. The second individual is Marilyn Partrick of Brandon who was recipient of the Dr.

Jack Hunt Award for coaches at the developmen tal level. Mrs. Partrick has been a figure-skating coach for 31 years, the last 26 with the Brandon Figure Skating Club. The third indiv idual is Roger Meager of Winnipeg who was recipient of the Peter Will iamson Award for high-perf ormance coaches. Mr. Meager has been the provincial rowing coach for the past two and a half years after relocating from the University of London, England, where he had been the rowing coach for 10 years. The partnership of a coach and athlete is the foundation and the driving force of sport.

Coaches are the primary custodians and communica tors of sport values. Their presence is powerful and constant. The influence a coach has on the lives of our chi ldren is sometimes greater than that even of a parent or teacher. Good coaches nurture good people, building strong characters and building strong communities. The three award winners were selected from a group of 36 nominees, all outstanding coaches in their own right. *

(1450) I would ask all honourable members to join me in co ngratulating Louis Nelissen, Marilyn Partrick and Roger Meager on their Coach of the Year A wards and salute them for their leadership, time, dedication and comm itment to coaching and the significant contribution they make to the development of amateur athletes in our province. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, a couple of cla rifications arise from certain agreements and arrangements reached and announced yesterday.

Fi rst off, in the lig ht of all the ci rcumstances of the present flood situation in Manitoba, we talked about votes being deferred and, of course, we were referring to recorded votes. Appropriations can indeed still pass in our Comm ittees of Supply, and I, of course, welcome that as a matter of fact, but the reference yesterday was to the deferral of recorded votes.

Because no one is certain when the worst moments of the flood situation will pass and when honourable members might be more available for service in this House, it is agreed, I believe, that deferral of all recorded votes would be to a time that would be agreed upon through discussions amongst House leaders. The next item would be-[ interjection ]Yes, I just dealt with that item. When would votes be deferred to was the question, and the answer is that that time will be discussed and agreed upon by House leaders.

With respect to attendance upon the House, because of the extremely important circumstances which exist all around us, I would suggest that there would not be any suggestion of any notice being taken of a lack of quorum should that happen to arise in any of our

17 52 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 19 97 commit tees in the Comm ittee of Supply or in the House. I think that if you checked with honourable members, you might find there is agreement with those clarifications. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Yes, Madam Speaker, there is certainly agreement on that, and I would also suggest that we apply the same principle to a request for recorded votes not requiring the minimum support in commit tee or the House of either four or two so that a member could request a recorded vote that would then be deferred.

I think there might be agreement on that as well. Mr. McCrae: Al though that has not yet been discussed, I think it flows from what I have said, not automatically but should flow from what I said, that there will be moments when or times when the numbers may drop, we hope lik e the water actually, but that could happen. In those cases, I do not think that the required number of supporters for a recorded vote should be adhered to at that particula r time. If anyone out of a fit of fancy wants to have a vote, they may have to pay some price for that later on.

Madam Speaker: If I understand correctly the direction of the two House leaders, first of all, is there leave to defer any recorded deferred votes at a time as set by the House leaders? [agreed] Then is there leave to waive the quorum rule in Supply, and additionally the opposition House lea der asked that the number of people requesting the recorded vote be reduced from two to one. Mr. McCrae: That is agreed, Madam Speaker, but it applies not only to Supply but committees of the House and the House itself. Madam Speaker: And it will apply not just only to Supply but comm ittees of the House.

Is that agreed? [agreed] Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minis ter of Energy and Mines (Mr. Newman), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a commit tee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jesty with the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) in the Chair for the Department of Rural Development; and the honourable member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture.

Madam Speaker: Because of the unavailability of the Deputy Speaker and the Chair, the Deputy Chair of Commit tee of Supply, the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) will be chairing the commi ttee outside the Chamber; and the honourable member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed), will be chairing the commit tee in the Chamber and temporarily. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) RURAL DEVELOPMENT The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Gerry McAlpine): Good afternoon. Please come to order. This afternoon, with the co-operation of the comm ittee, this

section of the Com mittee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Rural Development. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 3.(

a) on page 115 ofthe Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Mr. Chairman, I was asked the question regarding the Canada-Ukraine Business Initiative, and I believe when we ended our session yesterday afternoon, I had not completed my response to the question, so I was wondering if I may comple te the response. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): With the indul gence of the committee, is it agreed that the minister will be allowed to finish his response? [agreed] Mr.

Derkach : I think I indicated to the members ofthe comm ittee yesterday afternoon that the three provinces, Alb erta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba, were particip ating in that Alb erta was looking after the energy sector and Saskatchewan was looking after the

April 22, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 17 53 agriculture sector. Our responsibility was the construction sector, and because we do not have a natural venue to attach our symposium to, it was decided that we would actually create a venue for the construction and construction material sector. To that end, we have now scheduled a symposium in Winnipeg which will be held between the 17 th of June and the 21s t of June.

At the same time, the members might know that there is also another international show being held in the city which is called Export House, and we will be co operatively working with Export House to ensure that the two events can blend and can intertwine as much as possible. The problem, of course, is to convince business people in Ukraine to come to Canada. As the members may know, they are now aggressively pursuing opportunities with countries throughout the world. Canada's partici pation in Ukraine has not been very significant to date, and that is why the Canada-Ukraine Business Ini tiative was launched.

In trying to promote the event and to ensure that there is some participa tion in Manitoba on the construction side, in early November I had the opportunity to visit in Ukraine where we were able to visit with many state agencies and city committees, as well as some private sector people regarding construction in Ukraine.

It became very evident to us that there is a desperate need for northern-type construction in Ukraine because although there is a tremendous demand for housing, they do not use any insulation materials and things like triple-pane windows or double-pane windows, for that matter, and there is a need for technology transfer to their type of construction. We have had some people who have been working in Ukraine to try to encourage participants at this conference.

We are hoping that we will get 40 or 50 people or perhaps more in Manitoba during that period of time with whom we will be able to establish some meaning ful linkages. I might also say that while we were there, the private sector did sign a memorandum of understanding for the reconstruction of one of the apartment blocks, and there are just literally thousands of this particular style of apartment block that have zero-insulation, single-pa ne windows. The structures are literally falling down.

They cannot be tom down because they are still inhabited, and because of the shortage of housing, it is felt by the government in Ukraine that they have to be rebui lt. We feel that we have the technology in Canada to be able to do this. This is more than just reconstruction because it plays into the energy sector, and there will be tremendous savings of energy because at the present time they lose about 60 percent of their energy through the roof, through the windows and through their doors. It also means that we can probably link Manitoba businesses with Ukraine businesses in doing this massive reconstruction.

The one company that we were dealing with had a million and a half square metres of space that they needed to renovate almost immediat ely. So the task is horrendous in terms of the quantity of work, as well. So we are hoping that come June we will have some meani ngful participation. It is my understanding that the Prime Minister of Ukraine, Mr. Lazarenko, or the deputy prime minister and also the Minister responsible for Economic Development, Mr. Shpek, will be joi ning the delegates in at least Calgary, and then the delegates will be coming to Manitoba from there.

That is sort of a brief overview of what the CUBI initiative is. We do have a meeting in Calgary on May 7 to finalize the details, and at that time we will also be sending another delegation over to Ukraine to try and do the final paperwork and sign up for the project because, as you know, if they are coming here in June, most of that work has to be done by mid-May. [interjection] No, we are not looking for volunteers right now. But the private sector will be going over to Ukraine in the early part of May to do that. Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): I thank the minister for the explanation.

The trip to Ukraine in May, is the minis ter going to be involved in that? Mr. Derkach: No, I will not, because the House is sit ting, and therefore it is impossible for me to get away, but some of the people from the private sector are going. Unfortunately, the flooding in Winnipeg is

17 54 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 19 97 causing some of our delegates from the private sector to beg out of the trip as well, so it is causing us a bit of concern. * (1 500) I spoke to the ambassador in Ukraine about a week ago. He thinks it is absolutely urgent that we go there because, as the member may know, in Ukraine there is still a tendency to deal government to government and not private sector to private sector. So if the private sector goes over alone, there is a reluctance for the people in Ukraine to deal with them directly. They want to deal on a government-to-government basis.

So I regret that I will not be able to go, but it just makes it a little difficult when the House is sitting. (Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr. Clif Evans: I look forward to the minister providing an update on that and also look forward to the June meetings that are going to be held here. It is unfortunate, of course, that we have to deal with what we are dealing with here in Manitoba right now, to have to put up with and take away from a real delegation to go over there to finalize everything, and I hope that works out. I know that the forum will be successful; I hope it will be succe ssful.

So I encourage that, and we encourage the whole process. The Acting Cha irperson (Mr. Dyck): 13 .3. (

a) Corporate Planning and Business Development

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $6 1 4,60 0-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $81 ,200-pass. 3 .(

b) Small Business and Community Suppor t ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 89.000. Mr. Clif Evans: Can the minister enl ighten us here with this branch? It is a new part of Rural Development. Can he explain why this part of Rural Development was formed? Mr. Derka ch: Mr. Chair, I would be happy to. The Small Bus iness and Community Suppor t branch was created in June of 19 96 to work in partnership with community leaders and small business people in assisting and supporting the grassroots business development through the provision of marketing and information-communication services.

The member may know that we did not have a branch of this nature in our department, although it is very common in most departments to have in marketing or communications a small business suppor t branch. So it was for that reason that we created this branch. This branch has responsibilities to work with small business throughout Manitoba to ensure that their products can get to the markets that they are designed for, that we assist manufacturers, small business people, in the promotion and the marketing of their products and that we basically suppor t them in their marketing efforts.

Specifically, the objectives of this particular branch are to continue promoting the climate of growth in our rural settings to ensure that Manitoba and our small businesses remain a vital and growing part of our province. It is to improve partnerships with the community through co-ordination and co-operation among the various regions and communities of the province through work in round tables and local economic development agencies, environmental groups. our education and research organizations, business, labour and local government.

It is also to inform rural Manitobans of the quality of services available in all areas of the department, so that rural Manitobans can help themselves in terms of being able to launch their businesses, and it is to promote and suppor t the department's role as an advocate of rural needs and a catalyst for the co-ordination of various activities that take place throughout the province.

We also respond to requests of small rural businesses in assisting them in developing market opportunities, and I guess I could use some examples, but I would like to indicate that a few years ago we were approached by a grower of peas who grew a particular kind of pea that was being exported, I think it was to China. The peas were processed in China. They were processed in such a way as to make them into a snack food.

They were roasted, then they were flavoured, and then they were shipped back in little packages and were sold in many of our health food stores and our specialty stores for a significant value-added price. So we were approached to help develop a food product where we could take this pea and process it

April 22, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 17 55 into a finished product and add different flavours to it. Through our food Jab, we were able to do that, and then once we have done that, this particula r branch would work with that business to ensure that we could get the product onto the marketing shelves of various stores in our province but, additionally, to export this product to other provinces and to other parts of the world.

I could use another example, and the member may have heard of the individual who launched a business in salsa, and his product, although it is just a fledgling business, was incubated at the Food Development Centre. Now the individual is marketing this product, and this product is finding its way onto the shelves of our Safeway stores and IGA stores and that sort of thing.

Our responsibility is to work through this branch with companies like that to promote their product to ensu re that they, in fact, can make their way into the marketplace, because that is one of the most difficult parts in trying to get our products either into an export position or onto the shelves of stores in this province and through out. We work in other areas as well.

If you look at communities, l would like to reference one, and unfortunately that community is experiencing extreme difficulty right now, and that is the community of Emerson where we helped in developing their site project in terms of the historical benefits of it. That is the RCMP site of Fort Dufferin. So this particular branch works with a community to not only promote but to set out a business plan on how they can promote that particular site and can attract development to restore a site like that and to create that site into not only a historical site but also into a tourism site.

The restoration of that particular site has many ramifications. As a matter of fact, it is seen that perhaps corporations like the Disney Corporation can, in fact, be involved because they own the RCMP logo, and there might be some interest from them. So we work with communities, with agencies, with outside groups, to try and ensure that we give the best possible benefits of marketing a product, a community, a site in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Clif Evans: I look at the Activity Identification, two paragraphs: produces the departmental newspaper. I have never seen that.

I have not seen that, and I guess Rural Development is getting into-I hope not-the newspaper industry and a radio show. Can the minister explain that? Mr. Derkach: Yes, I would be happy to. First of all, it is the same publi cation that there were questions in the House about just prior to the election, I believe, and the issue was the number of times the minister's photograph appeared in this particular newspaper.

It is called Rural Developments, and I was proud to be in that newspaper because the department was indeed doing work in it, and as a matter of fact, the opposition critic, I believe, was even in Rural Developments as well. It is a widely distributed quarterly that we send out to, I believe, 15 ,000 businesses and households throughout the province, mostly businesses, and municipalities. We do it on a quarterly basis. Basically, the stories in there are the success stories of businesses throughout Manitoba. They may or may not have accessed programs from government.

Some of them are independent businesses who have achieved success on their own without any support from government, but it is basically messaging what kinds of things are happening throughout the province, giving hope and incentive to those who have ideas and have dreams to take up the challenge and to create their own success. * (1510 ) This came out of the Neepawa forum. If you will remember years ago, there was a call for us to message what it was we were doing in government more accurate ly and more ef fectively. I think that has happened, particularly with this particular quarterly.

It is not just Rural Development stories in the paper. We use stories that are of interest to the social side, the economic side, just some human stories in there which are of interest to readers throughout the province. I will certainly make a point of adding my honourable friend's name to the list to ensure that they, indeed the NDP party, get a copy of this instead of trying to get it in other ways.

17 56 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 19 97 Our next edition will focus on the rural youth of our province. Through you, Mr. Chainnan, I would be happy to share these copies with the opposition members and certainly add the opposition party to the mailing list. I regret that you have not been added to that list. In tenns of the radio show, you may have heard a couple of the ads lately on the hometown clip. As a matter of fact, it is young Manitobans talking about their hometown. It is all third-party stories.

It is not a radio show where I get on and talk about the merits of rural development and the benefits, although I would like to, but this is actually third-party characters, real people who are talking about their communities, their businesses and what they have done in their communities to promote their towns, their communities. The latest news or radio clips are of young people who are in business. The youngest individuals, I think, are 11 years old who talk about their hometown. As a matter of fact, one is from Winnipeg Beach, I believe. One is from Minnedosa, and then there are some from Flin Flon.

The 10 regions of the province are really covered by these. So that is basically what the radio show side of it is. So it is part of the strategy of ensuring that Manitobans know what is going on in their communities and that we message some of the activity that is taking place in the rural part of our province. Mr. Clif Evans: I must say that this is the first time that I have seen this.

I can honestly say that, and checking with my coll eague, I do not think we have seen it in our caucus unless it has come there and someone thinks it is such good news that they take it and take it home so nobody else can see it, I am not sure. Maybe they might think that it is just government propa ganda, I am not sure, but I would certainly apprecia te being on the list with this, and hopefully it will benefit and this branch will benefit.

So basically what we have done here is created a branch to assist any company in their marketing strategies or potential marketing strategies for their products, as the minister has said, for either export or for on-shelf sales within the province or within Canada. He has indicated a few of the dealings that the branch has already had, and I would hope to find out more about this branch as it grows and progresses and find out exactly from the minister ju st what it is doing and with whom at the time. Mr. Derkach: Just to add to what I said, Mr.

Chainnan, I failed to mention that this particular branch is at the present time creating a handbook that is scheduled for release in May to assist rural small business people with a framework for developing a basic marketing plan. This handbook includes a directory of rural Manitoba communications consultants. It also is going to, I guess, give a step-by step indication or process of how a marketing strategy can be developed. This is just another, I guess, duty that has been assigned to this particular branch.

In addition to that, I might say that this branch has also been involved very heavily with Rural Forum and ensuring that our communications is done properly and ef fectively for the upcoming forum as well. Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chainnan, just looking through the publica tion here.very quickly, I would encourage the minister and the department to perhaps use this more towards the pluses for the communities themselves and what they are doing. I would also want to encourage the minister that in my community, my constituency I have a business feeder machine that has expanded tremendously in the last five years.

Articles such as that to tell Manitobans just what is going on in different areas, not just specific areas where it is always hurrahs and good things happening, let us deal with some of the things that in the smaller communities to them is a big deal but maybe not in the scope that some of the other articles are indicating. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I would have to say to the member that at every meeting that I speak to, whether it is the chamber, the municipalities, the communities, the conservation districts, I encourage everyone to submit their stories or at least let us know what their success stories are.

As a matter of fact, we found one in Oak River I think it was, a manufacturing business that I had no knowledge of, and they certainly were showing us that they started from humble beginnings and had created quite a little enterprise employing about 26 people. I invited them to write to us and tell us about their story or, if they could not, just to at least contact us and we would have somebody go out and

April 22, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 17 57 talk to them. Each Rural Development's release issue carries with it a block where we invite communities and individuals to tell us their stories. If you look at this particular one on page 2, at the bottom it says: Tell us your story. We invite, whether it is individuals or companies to come forward. They do not have to tell us the detail. We can get that by contacting them afterwards and getting the details from them, but we try to cover the entire province with the stories that are in there as much as possible.

The publica tion has been very, very well received throughout Manitoba, and I regret that the member did not have a copy. Mr. Clif Evans: Just about on every page, though, maybe we could see more pictures of our entrepreneurs and our rural people as compared to the number of ministers that we see in this publica tion. I would encourage that. I know that from time to time the government likes to express its good news, but I would like to rather see- Mr. Derkach: We will even include the critic. Mr. Clif Evans: Well, if you include the critic, that might be okay.

Like I say, I would sort of like to see more of the rural, of the grassroots. Right now, I will encourage this publication. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, it is not often that you will see that many pictures of ministers in a publication. I think this was an exception. From time to time you will when there are stories to be given. For example, if there is a budget, you want to ensure that the budget highlights are included. When there is a new minister in a particular portfolio, we will ensure that we write about the new minister, and I think there is coverage of that.

We are not opposed to putting anyone in the publ ication, and as I said, I have even seen the critic's picture in one of them. We will try to ensure that he stands in an appropriate spot and gets a picture taken from time to time. Mr. Clif Evans: I thank the minister for that and the expla nation, and if the publica tion is accepted throughout, then I do not have a problem with it. We will certainly look forward to more. * (1 520) Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): In both the paper and apparently on the radio show, advertising is solicited? Mr. Derkach : No.

There is no advertising solicited either in the newspaper or on the news clips, I do not believe. Mr. Sale: Is there no revenue generated by the paper in terms of advertising? Mr. Derkach: Not at this time, but that is something that is being explored. We wanted to dedicate the paper as much as possible to putting information about communities and individuals and businesses and as much as possible to limit the amount of advertorial in the newspaper, and, basically, that is the approach we have taken up to now. Mr.

Sale: I just note the ad from Athabasca Airways on page 8 which it would be very hard to understand that as anything other than an ad, if you are looking at it. If it is not an ad, it is sure as heck wonderful free publicity. Mr. Derkach: I guess that is an anomaly, Mr. Chairman, because I am advised that that was an agreement that was reached as a result of the airway doing some work for us as a department for the Rural Forum, and there was an agreement that we would include an advertisement for them in Rural Developments. But it is not a matter of course. Mr. Sale: Mr.

Chairperson, I think the minister can see and I am sure that other committee members can see the difficulty when we start having agreements to publ icize certain businesses as a result of those businesses doing certain things for the government. The potential here for misunderstanding, let us say, on the part of the public as to why certain businesses are being promoted in government publ ications while others are not is fairly large. I doubt that the minister would be comfortable saying in this newspaper, the following ad appears as a result of an agreement between the department because the

17 58 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 19 97 company involved did something for us, so we are doing something for it. I do not think the public would find that a very good explanation, Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Derkach: That is a fair comment and it is something that we will pay attention to, but this was not for, necessarily, the department. This was done, as the member will see, for Rural Forum rather than just for the department. We do have sponsors for Rural Forum, there is no question about that. This resulted as an agreement, I guess, for Rural Forum, not for the department. Mr.

Sale: Just one other question about Rural Forum. The newspaper highlights the country and western concert quite prominently and it is being put on-at least the corporate sponsor is Paquin, I guess, who is the ticket seller. Is there any subsidy or crossing of funds for that conc ert, other than the obvious promotional effort here for that headliner or for any part of that paid entertainment? Mr. Derkach: There is cost promotional advertising that is done, as is evidenced in the paper here, but there is no subsidy to the concer t itself by the department. Mr. Clif Evans: Just one final question on this.

So then the cost of the paper and the radio show is funded by the department. There is no sale of advertising whatsoever for the radio portion of this. Mr. Derkach: That is correct. The Acting Cha irperson (Mr. Dyck): Okay, moving on to 13 .3 .(b)

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $189,000 -pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $58, 900-pass. Resolution 13 .3 : RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $943,700 for Rural Development, Small Business and Corporate Planning Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 98. · Then moving on to 13. 4. (

a) Executive Administration

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 04,900. Mr. Clif Evans: Under this branch, who is the department head for this Executive Administration branch? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I will introduce the head of this branch. It is Ms. Marie Elliott who is the ADM for the Local Government Services side of the department. Maybe I should at this time as well introduce our provincial assessor who is Mr. Ken Graham. Mr. Graham has been around for many years and is probably familiar to many of the members. He heads up the Assessment Branch of the department. Mr.

Clif Evans: Can the minister just briefly provide the committee with an overview of the latest assessment that was done? Mr. Derkach: I would be happy to. I guess in doing reassessment, one has to pay attention to the impact that it has on the property owners of the province to ensure that there is a good understanding of why we do reassessment and what the objectives are and not to mislead individuals to thinking that reassessment is another form of increased taxation. Rather, it has to do with the legislation that was passed regarding market value assessment and the need to reassess on a three year cycle.

However. as the member knows, we did amend the act to extend the cycle by one year. The purpose of reassessment is also to ensure that there is equity among taxpayers so that we do not have a shifting of taxes from one particular class to another and to assure that values of property in this province remain current, or as current as possible, and to try and ensure that taxpayers feel confident that in fact their property values are current. both for marketing and for taxation purposes. So those are what the objectives of assessment are.

In terms of this year's reassessment, I would have to say that, by and large, the process has gone on extremely well and without a lot of glitches. We have undertaken as a department to ensure that our first, I guess, motto is service to our cl ients, and the entire Assessment branch has really taken this to heart and very seriou sly . First of all, we sent out an information piece that would let individuals know what assessment was all about. After we did the assessment, we then had meetings with individual municipalities. I might say that newspaper articles were also used to explain the reassessment cycle.

April 22, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 17 59 Then we did a centre spread in Rural Developments to ensure that the message was getting out through that medium as well. A brochure was prepared, and this brochure covered all the elements of reassessment and what it really meant. In addition, on the back of this we also had the times when various meetings could be held in various regions. I think every municip ality here is covered, are they not? Then of course we have had open houses to ensure the public had access to our staff and to municipalities.

The open houses were ones where we had the actual assessors present. They were equipped with either laptops or computer systems which would allow them to access information for any individual who wanted to come forward and see how his or her assessment compared to assessments in their neighbouring area. * (1 530 ) Mr. ClifEvans: Well, as yet, I have not had anybody coming to me with any complaint or concern. Does the minister know how many appeals to date there have been with the assessments? Mr. Derkach: To date, Mr.

Chairman, I am advised that about 50 percent of the appeal deadlines have passed, and the appeal rate is exceptionally low, about 1 percent of the tax roll or the assessment roll is under appeal at the present time. So that is very, very low. Mr. Clif Evans: Yes, it is. I guess a concern that was presented to me is the slow pace of the reinspection schedule. Has the minister been approached to improve this process? Mr. Derkach: Absolu tely, Mr. Chairman. Although there is concern about the slow pace, I guess it is the southeastern side of the province that needs to be reinspected at this point in time.

But, you know, three quarters of the task is done. I go back to a few years ago when I first came into the department, or a little earlier than that, where reinspections had not happened at least in the city for, what, 15 years or more? So we are certainly trying to do our best to ensure that we are on track. Municipalities that come to us and ask us to speed this up are told that, well, remember that you pay three quarters of the cost of this, so do you want us to hire more people?

As soon as you tell them that they pay three-quarters of the cost and that if we hire more people they will be liable for that too, they say: Oh, no, no, just work faster. So I think there is sensitivity to ensuring that we do the last quarter as quickly as possible, but these things take time. When you have a reassessment cycle, that takes staff out of the field, if you like, to do the reassessment. So I think they are working as hard as they can, and they really are doing a fairly adequate job as can be seen by the few appeals that we have to date.

We are quite pleased with the effectiveness of the reassessment as well. Mr. Clif Evans: The minister mentions the southeastern area. I only briefly read that, the

article that was in the paper, the media, last week or the week before-can you help me out with that-about the hogs. I did not get a chance to fully read that, nor did I get a chance to speak to anybody from the area, but why do they have these concerns? Mr. Derk ach: There are two reasons. One, I would suggest that back in 19 92 when we did the reassessment-'9 1 when we did the reassessme nt-there may have been an undervalue of barns. Then this year, of course, I think we have seen what has happened in the whole hog industry. That is that there certainly has been a rapid expansion.

When you have that, you are going to have, you know, the value of these barns reflected in an assessment. So basically that is what has happened. We are on market-value assessment, and some of these barns are $4-million barns. I mean, the cost of them is the easiest way to assess them, because that is the market value of that particular bam. I think we moved some way a few years ago when we took the equipment that is in the bam that used to be taxable, I believe, and assessed at a taxable rate, is now exempt from that. Mr.

Clif Evans: So then the minister is saying that just basically the bam itself in the operation is assessed. But then does that not-according to these folks-also create a problem for the value of their property being assessed way up also? If it is a mile away or a mile and

17 60 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 19 97 a half away, would that not affect the assessment of those farms and land values? Mr. Derkach : The assessment may go up because you are assessing the actual value of a property, but that does not mean that their taxes will go up. So, yes, if there is a concentration of hog barns in a particular area, the total value of assessment in that municipality will be considerably higher.

But it simply reflects the value of those barns or those structures that have come up and, as the member knows-I was reading today that the one plant for Boissevain is about $4 million. I think the Souris one was about the same. So these barns are costing a significant amount, and you cannot go in there and assess them at a million dollars when someone has paid $4 million to construct the bam. So it really reflects the market value of that structure .

Now that does not mean that the taxes are going to go up in that municipality, because that is something that is within the purview of the municipal council to ensure that there is some equity in the taxation. Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I do not think the point is any concern about market-value assessment. There are problems with market value assessment, but that is not the issue.

I bel ieve the issue was complaints from nearby landowners that their land was being assessed higher simply because they were adjacent to pork industry developments which were causing their lands to be higher in value when, in fact, they were not in the pork business and did not want to be in the pork business and, in fact, likely could not be, given the existing density of the hog barns. That was the concern I was hearing. Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr. Chairman, the reality is we assess properties based on their market value, and market value is arrived at by sales that occur in that region.

So in a region where you have land selling at a thousand or $1 ,200 an acre in the previous three or four years, it is certainly going to be recorded, and it is on that basis that the assessment will go up. The hog barns that are being assessed are assessed at their value, not at the land's value. Mr. Sale: But the problem with that, Mr.

Chairperson, is that if people who are producing a relatively lower value from their land assets are faced with an increase in their assessment of their land on the basis that nearby land is more valuable because it is being used more intensively for barns, what you are really doing is driving the pattern of land use in a way that may not be in the best interests of the local community or even of the province as a whole, because we do not want every last acre to be converted to that kind of intensive use. The infrastructure of our province and the environment would not stand it. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Chairman, I am advised that raw agricult ural land is valued separate and apart from agricult ural land that is used, for example, for hog production, so, therefore, the value of land is based on sales of raw agricultural land, not land that has intensive livestock operations on it because that is usually a smaller piece of land. So if we are talking about agricultural land for crop production, that would be valued on the basis of the sales that occurred in the last three years.

So I think the issue in the newspaper was a little inaccurate in that there was a feeling that the hog barns were driving up the land values when, in fact, it was the history of sales that was really reflecting what the assessment on the land was. * (1 540) The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): l3 .4.(

a) Executive Administration (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 04,900 -pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $32,6 00-pass. 4.(

b) Assessment Services (

I) Salaries and Employee Benef its $5,5 15 ,500-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1 ,207,200 -pass;

(3) Less: Recoverable from Education and Training ($ 1 ,680, 700). Mr. Clif Evans: Could the minister explain this line, please? Mr. Derkach: This is recoverable from Education on the ba sis that they pay 75 percent of the cost of assessment on their properties, and their monies are paid to General Revenue. We recover this through General Revenue from the Education system. [interjection]

April 22, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 17 61 Mr. Chairman, a correction, it is not recovered from General Revenue. It is recovered, I am sorry, from the Department of Education, and they billed it in as part of their Estimates. Mr. Clif Evans: And that is for 75 percent of what cost? Mr. Derkach: It is 25 percent of their cost, I am sorry. Mr. Clif Evans: Of assessment. Mr. Derkach: Yes, of assessment. Mr. Clif Evans: So will this line be added at assessment time, or is it going to be continuous?

Will the Department of Education and Training be providing cost-sharing of day-to-day assessment, or it is just going to be every four years? If I may just continue, I find it is not in the '96-97 departmental Estimates, but it is here at a figure of 1, 679 for '96-97-just an explanation on that. Mr. Derkach: This is a cost that is levied every year, and as I had indicated before, that it is 75 percent of the cost of assessment, it is not; it is 25 percent that is recovered from the Department of Education,

whereas municipalities pay for 75 percent, and this is done on an annual basis. Mr. ClifEvans: I know I am going back to the '96-97, but it is a force of habit- Mr. Derkach: '95-96, you mean. Mr. Clif Evans: No. Mr. Derkach: Okay, '96-97. Mr. Clif Evans: To the '96-97 Estimates book. It is not there, yet in the now Estimates book, '97-98, we are showing that under '96-97 it was there. What happened to it between '96-97 and '97-98? Mr. Derkach: In the past, this used to be a cost that was borne by the Department of Rural Development.

To better reflect where the costs really were, this was separated out, and each department or each group, then, has to pay their own costs. It is on that basis that we now reflect that cost in the Estimates of the Department of Education, and we recover it. Mr. Clif Evans: Maybe it is just accounting practice or whatever, and there are parts in Estimates that this same type of thing is reflected, that when I go back to the '96-97 assessment, something is not there even under the '96-97 line, and then when I look in here, something appears that was not there.

So if you are budgeting in the '96-97 Estimates, you are telling me now for '97-98 that it was there in '96-97 when, in fact, it was not there, at least not on paper. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, it was paid by the Department of Rural Development last year, but all we are doing in this particular Estimates book is showing what the cost of that was in 19 96-97, although you did not see it there in the line last year. It was not there; it was borne by the Department of Rural Development.

Now we are trying to reflect where the cost is, and therefore this year the Department of Education and Training will be paying that cost for assessment. It ju st simply reflects where the benefit lies. It is not with Rural Development; it is with Educa tion. Mr.

Clif Evans: Then what, I guess, we should have known last year during Estimates-when we were at this point, the minister should have indicated that that would have been the case. [interjection] Well, you see numbers and you do not see numbers, and to me, if there is a logical explanation to it, fine, but when I see it-you know, ifl gave my accountant numbers to do my year-end, and he brought me back my year-end with different numbers, saying, well, that may be something that might happen, I would not like that. I am just asking why it is in one and not in another, that is all. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Chairman, in the past, not only this government but previous governments used to pay this cost out of this particular department, and it was never reflected as a-you never took that cost out and showed what it was. It was just a cost that was picked up for all assessment from the department. To reflect where the cost truly is, it has now been taken out and apportioned

17 62 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apr il 22, 19 97 to the various departments or the entities that have to pay that cost, so it shows where the benefit is. It is just a simple matter of doing proper accounting practices to show what the true costs are. Although it was not reflected in a separate line last year, we are doing it this year for the first time. All we are trying to do is show you a comparison of what the costs might have been last year, so that you have something to compare it to, although it was just handled out of a pool last year and was paid for by the department.

This year, we are not paying for it anymore. It is being recovered from the Department of Education and Training, and you will see this particula r number show up in their Estimates, as well, as a cost. Mr. Clif Evans: I do not have a problem at all with what the minister is explaining, and I am not jumping on the minister. All I am saying is that I would have liked to have been informed during our Estimates process that when we were here on page 43 of the Estimates book for '96-97, that the minister would have explained that this was coming into play. That is all I am saying.

Someone who does not understand the process would look at this and say, well, basically, okay, then my question would have been did the Department of Rural Development receive $1,679,000 in the year '96-97? Mr. Derkach: No. Mr. Clif Evans: Then why is it there? I mean, why put it in? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, we could have a blank there. Mr. Clif Evans: Yes, leave it blank. Mr. Derkach: We could have a blank there, and that is probably what should have happened.

However, for comparison purposes, I guess there was an intent to show what the cost was last year as compared to this year, and that is the only reason it is there. We ju st received approval from the Department of Finance to be able to show this and to be able to charge it back in this particula r year. That number, if the member wishes he could strike it out, was just done for comparative purposes, so that when you ask the questions next year you will know. * (1 55 0) The Acting Cha irperson (Mr. Dyck): 4.(b)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Education and Training ($ 1 ,680, 700)-pass. 4.(

c) Local Government Support Services (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $747,8 00-pass;

(2) Other Expend itures $232, 400-pass;

(3) Transit Grants $1 ,444, 1 00-pass;

(4) Municipal Suppor t Grants $1 ,045 ,700-pass;

(5) Less: Recoverable from Rural Economic Developme nt Initiatives. Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chair, with all due respect, I would appreciate it if we would slow down a little bit. I have notes, and we are whipping through this like a hot knife through butter, so I would apprec iate it. I would like to ask a few questions on 13 .4(c)(

l) and (2). The Acting Cha irperson (Mr. Dyck): The honourable member for Interlake, please proceed with your questions. Mr. Clif Evans: Under Local Government Supp ort Services administration, there has been a small change in funding. The transfer line shows under Other Expenditures in '96-97, 44.4. It was a loss. What does that line represent? (Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr. Derkach: We were asked to find the funding internally for the small business development branch, and it is for that reason that you see a transfer from here to that branch, because it is an internal transfer.

As I indicated previously, we had to fund it internally, so we had to reprioritize some of our funding, and that is why you see a transfer here. Mr. Clif Evans: I also see that the department has dropped it in funding in the last couple of years from a high of 1.1 to this year's expenditure of $980,000. Is there any particular reasoning for the drop? I do not

April 22, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 17 63 see it in staff; probably in some of the expenditures, of course. Mr. Derkach: Yes, the cost of The Municipal Act review has been taken out, and for that reason we have a decrease. Mr. Clif Evans: We do not have a grants line as we did in last year's Estimates. Can the minister just explain why last year's Estimates book had a grants-there was nothing there. There was a drop of $54, 000 in grants. This year, there is no line at all of grants. Mr.

Derkach: That was for the Church ill economic development committee which was receiving funding from the department, and that has been phased out. That is why there is a reduction there. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Item 13 .4.(c)

(5) Less: Recovera ble from Rural Economic Develop ment Initiatives. Mr. ClifEvans: I would appreciate that we would ju st go back to 4.(c)(3) for one very short question and then another question for 4.(c)(4). The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Is there leave of the committee to revert back? [agreed] Mr. Clif Evans: On this line, I just want to have the minister-it says: To assist municipal governments with providing public and handi-transit services to its citizens. I would like to know a little bit more about this branch and how it helps and/or affects our handicapped people in rural Manitoba. Mr.

Derkacb: Mr. Chairman, each year we try to support the mobility disadvantaged and senior people of this province with a program that provides handi-van services to these communities. It is not a total grant program because there is an expectation the communities will contribute as well. In addition to that, communities largely operate these programs on a volunteer basis either through volunteer drivers or board members or in a way in which they can provide these services at the least possible cost.

We provide a start-up grant to a community that has made its intentions known that they want to get into the program. The start-up grant is $6,000 which assists the sponsors in the establishment of the new services and also helps to defray some of the start-up costs. Then when they purchase their handi-van, we supply a grant of a maximum of $1 0,000, and then if they require another vehicle we could participate in that as well.

We provide for 37.5 percent of the gross qualifying operating costs to a maximum of $20,000 a year and to a maximum of $30,000 for operators with more than one vehicle, so basically that is the extent of our participation in that program. It is a program that there is an extreme amount of demand for right now because more and more mobility disadvantaged and senior citizens are living in our rural communities. They require those services. This is unlike the urban Handi-Transit program which is supplied in large part through operating grants by the provincial government.

We do expect a significant contribution from our rural communities to deliver these programs, and there is a large volunteer component to this program as well. Mr. ClifEvans: So then the Recoverab le, which is on the next page, of $75,000 is used toward the same program. Can the minister explain that, just how that works? Mr. Derkach: As I said, this was a program that was in great demand in rural Manitoba, and to assist in meeting some of the outstanding demands, we actually transferred $75,000 from RED! to help fund this program. The Acting Cha irperson (Mr. McAlpine): Item 13 .4.(

c) Local Government Suppor t Services

(5) Less: Recovera ble from Rural Economic Development Initiatives ($75,000 )-pass. 4.(

d) Grants to Municipalities in Lieu of Taxes. Mr. Clif Evans: First of all, recoverable from other appropriations. The minister is indicating in the Estimates, then, the grants in lieu of taxes are being paid for from other departments and through the

17 64 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 19 97 Department of Rural Development to administer those payments. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the grants to municipalities in lieu of taxes amount to $1 4.88 6 million. We recover $14 .79 1 million, which leaves us with a balance of $94,700 to pay. The recoverable grants are basically from three departments: Government Services for $13. 099 million, Highways and Transportation for $875,000 and Natural Resources for $987,900. * (1 600) Mr.

Clif Evans: Would this be the line that-the minister is aware, his department is aware of the request by the now R.M. of Armstrong to pay grants in lieu of taxes on some properties within their R.M. During Bill 54, during The Municipal Act committee, the reeve brought it to the minister's attention here in committee. Also at a meeting, one of the rural meetings in Eriksdale a couple of years ago, the minister's staff sat with the R.M., then LGD. Does the minister have an update on it? What is happening with that? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Chairman, when all of these areas were transferred to the various departments to pay taxes on, Natural Resources were charged with the responsibility of unpatented land, and, I guess, legal advice was that they should not be paying taxes or grants in lieu on unpatented lands. But there is not a large number of parcels in that. As a matter of fact, it is tiny little pieces of land, and I think the total amount is about $8,000.

It is land that is really not productive or land that is not really useful or desirable by too many people, and so therefore Natural Resources felt that they should not be paying taxes on it or grants in lieu either. That discussion is ongoing, and I believe that a resolution is being sought as to whether or not there will be grants in lieu paid on that land or not, but the verdict on that is still out. I think there is still ongoing discussion in that regard. Mr. ClifEvans: Mr.

Chair, I guess this was brought to my attention at least four years ago, and I would hope-well, of course, it is not this minister's department-but I would hope that the R.M. is coming to the Minister of Rural Development for assistance with this. I would hope that the minister and his department would try to speed the process up to settle this issue because whether the minister feels that it is, or the department, I am sure, but the R.M. could certainly-and from what I understand they have every right to ask for this money they feel. They have sought legal advice, too.

I mean, that money would do well for them if it was given to them like they think it should be. So I would hope that the minister would encourage his collea gue the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings) to deal with this and settle it, and have the R.M. receive what is coming to them. Mr. Derkach: I will address that with the minister at my first opportunity after the flood is done. The Acting Cha irperson (Mr. McAlpine): Item 13. 4. (

d) Grants to Municipalities in Lieu of Taxes

(1) Grants $1 4,886,1 00-pass;

(2) Less: Recovera ble from other appropriations ($ 14 , 79 1 ,400)-pass. 13 .4.(

e) Information Systems

(1) Salaries and Employee Benef its $684,300. Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Chair, there have been some changes in funding with this branch. In reading the activity identification, this Information Services branch works in co-ordination with the Assessment branch then. Is that what this branch of Rural Development does? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I would like to indicate that the operating costs of this branch will go up and down depending on whether we are into a reassessment year or not, and as you get into a reassessment year your costs will increase. When the reassessment is done, your costs will decrease.

So that is why you will see a variation in costs in this particular branch. Mr. Clif Evans: The total subappropria tion for this branch-again the minister, well, maybe not the minister but the Estimates have done it again, the books have done it again. It has thrown numbers around again that come out of the air and appear and disappear. The '95- 96 total subappropriation for this branch was $2,367,000, and, again, we go back and then we see the bottom line in this '97-98 book, it shows at '96-97 with Recoverable from Education and Training, again, shows $1. 7 million.

Yet, last year's Estimates book showed $2.1 million. If it is the same explanation that

April 22, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 17 65 the minister has and I can appreciate as he says, that the expenditures of the branch go up and down with assessment years, but then '95-96 was an assessment year. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, if, in fact, the member were to strike out those numbers, and I can see where they are causing some confusion for the member, because if you look at the '95-96, it was 2.3 67; in '96- 97, it was 2. 18 3; and if you take those recoverab les away, it ends up at 1. 77 1. Therefore, I would ask him to ignore the right-hand column, and the reasons are the same. Mr.

Clif Evans: Will this recoverab le now be in? Mr. Derkach : Yes, it will continue into the future. Mr. Clif Evans: So, if I might, this branch and the Assessment branch, there is a co-ordination between them, of course. Is there a problem as to why they are totally separate? I mean, can they not be under one umbrella? Mr. Derk ach: Mr. Chairman, we try to show the functions that the ADM has responsibil ity for, and althou gh the Assessment area reflects a very narrow area, the Information Systems not only serve the assessment function, it also serves other areas of the department.

Theref ore, it would be unf air to try

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-3-31
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 3rd hansardpdf 31.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	caa12e5ee201dbfaa92f91d263019e0f9623113a

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