Manitoba Hansard — 13 May 1974 (Sitting 124, 30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-124

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XXI No. 124 1:30 p.m., Monday, May 13th, 1974. First Session, 30th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans- Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

Electoral Division ARTHUR ASSINIBOIA Bl RTLE-RUSSELL BRANDON EAST BRAN DON WEST BURROWS CHARLESWOOD CHURCHILL CRESCENTWOOD DAUPHIN ELMWOOD EMERSON FLIN FLON FORT GARRY FORT ROUGE GIMLI GLADSTONE INKSTER KILDONAN LAC DU BONNET LAKESIDE LA VERENDRYE LOGAN MINNEDOSA M ORRIS OSBORNE PEMBINA POINT DOUGLAS PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE RADISSON RHINE LAND RI EL RIVER HEIGHTS ROBLIN ROCK LAKE ROSSMERE RUPERTSLAND T. BONIFACE s s s s s s s s s s s s s T T T V w w w T. GEORGE T. JAMES T. JOHNS T. MATTHEWS T. VITAL TE.

ROSE ELKIRK EVEN OAKS OURIS KILLARNEY PRINGFIELD TURGEON CREEK WAN RIVER HE PAS HOMPSON RANSCONA IRDEN ELLINGTO N INNIPEG CENTRE OLSELEY Name J. Douglas Watt Steve Patrick Harry E. Graham Hon. Leonard S. Evans Edward McGill Hon. Ben Hanuschak Arthur Moug Les Osland Harvey Patterson Hon. Peter Burtniak Hon. Russell J. Doern Steve Derewianchuk Thomas Barrow L.R. (Bud) Sherman Lloyd Axworthy John C. Gottfried James R. Ferguson Hon. Sidney Green, Q.C. Hon. Peter Fox Hon. Sam Uskiw Harry J. Enns Bob Banman William Jenkins David Blake Warner H. Jorgenson Hon. I an Tu rnbull George Henderson Donald Malinowski Gordon E.

Johnston Harry Shafransky Arnold Brown Donald W. Craik Sidney Spivak, a.c. J. Wally McKenzie Henry J. E in arson Hon. Ed. Schreyer Harvey Bostrom J. Paul Marion Hon. Bill Uruski George M inaker Hon. Saul Cherniack, Q.C. Wally Johannson D.J. Walding A.R. (Pete) Adam Hon. Howard Pawley Hon. Saul A. Miller Earl McKellar Hon. Rene E. Toupin J. Frank Johnston James H. Bilton Hon. Ron McBryde Ken Dillen Hon. R ussell Paulley Morris McGregor Philip M. Petursson J.R. (Bud) Boyce I.H. Asper Political Address Postal Affiliation Code P.C. Reston, Man. ROM 1XO Lib. 10 Red Robin PI., Winnipeg R3J 3La P.C. Binscarth, Man.

ROJ OGO NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova P.C. 222a Princess Ave., Brandon R7B OH9 NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3c ova P.C. 29 Willow Ridge Rd., Winnipeg R3R 1L5 NDP 66 Radisson Blvd., Churchill ROB OEO NDP 97a Garwood Ave., Winnipeg R3M 1N7 NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C eva NDP V ita, Manitoba ROA 2KO NOP Cranberry Portage, Man. ROB OHO P.C. a6 N iagara St., Winnipeg R3N OT9 Lib. 132 Osborne St. S., Winnipeg R3L 1Y5 NDP 44 -3rd Ave., Gimli, Man. ROC 1BO P.C. G ladstone, M an.

ROJ OTO NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova P.C. Woodlands, Man. ROC 3HO P.C. Steinbach, Man. ROA 2AO NQP 1294 Erin St., Winnipeg R3E 2S6 P.C. Minnedosa, Man. ROJ 1EO P.C. Morris, Man. ROG 1KO NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova P.C. Manitou, Man. ROG 1GO NDP 23 Coral berry Ave., Winnipeg R2V 2P2 Lib. 135- 16th St. S.W., Portage la Prairie, Man. R1N 2W5 NDP 4 Maplehurst Rd., Winnipeg R2J 1Wa P.C. Winkler, Man. ROG 2XO P.C. 3 River Lane, Winnipeg R2M 3Ya P.C. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova P.C. lnglis, Man. ROJ OXO P.C.

Glenboro, Man. ROK OXO NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova NDP Manigotagan, Manitoba ROE 1EO Lib. 394 Gaboury Place, Winnipeg R2H OL4 NDP 10th fir., 330 Portage Ave.,Wpg. R3C OC4 P.C. 31a Ronald St., Winnipeg R3J 3Ja NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova NDP 41a Home St., Winnipeg R3G 1X4 NDP 26 Hemlock Place, Winnipeg R2H 1L7 NDP Ste. Rose du Lac, Man. ROL 1SO NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OVB NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova P.C. Nesbitt, Man. ROK 1PO NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova P.C. 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg R3J 2G3 P.C. Swan River, Man.

ROL 1ZO NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova NDP 1171 Westwood Dr.,Tho mpson RaN OGa NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova P.C. Kenton, Man. ROM OZO NDP 6a1 Banning St., Winnipeg R3G 2G3 NDP 777 Winnipeg Ave., Winnipeg R3E OR5 Lib. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1:30 o'clock, Monday, May 13, 1974 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUC TION OF GUESTS 3417 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 43 students of Grade 11 standing of the Princess Elizabeth School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Balkwill. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Brandon East, the Minister of Indu stry and Commerce. We also have 50 students of Grades 9 and 11 standing of the Ross L. Gray School.

These students are under the direction of Mr. Leonard. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Emerson. And we have 53 students, Grade 5, standing, of the Gillam School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Marek, Mr. Podhorodeski, Miss Tomasson, Miss Kirkness, Miss Brown and Miss Podhorodeski. This sc hool is located in the constituency of the Honour able Member for Churchill. On behalf of all the honourable members, I welcome you here today.

Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable First Minister. TABLING OF REPORTS - ORDERS FOR RETlJRN HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker. I have here two Returns to Orders of the House: Order of the House No. 1, and Return to Order of the House No. 6. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. IAN TURNBULL (Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services) (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table a report prepared by my Department, entitled Broadcasting and Cable Television, the Manitoba Perspective. I table this paper, Sir, not as a statement of government policy, but as a basis for discuss ion of broadcasting and cable television and its development in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Any other Ministerial Statements or Tabling of Reports? Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills. The Honourable House Leader. HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Manage ment and House Leader) (lnkster): Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Education, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole, to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education) (Bur rows): Mr.

Chairman, last Friday - as a matter of fact, it was the honourable member whose voice I think I heard, who is quite anxious to pass my estimates, did make a number of comments and observations to which I would like to respond today, namely, the Honourable Member for Lak eside. I got the impression that the attitude that the honourable member--or what the honourable member wished to impress upon this House, is that we - I presume both sides of the House - should assume the role of a cheering sec tion to praise the accomplishments of the previous government, particularly in the field of education.

You will recall, Mr. Chairman, that the honourable member mentioned that there may have been a number of programs which may not be at the top of the list deserving of praise, but certainly education ought to be one of them. And of course, with great reverence, he mentioned the name of one of the Ministers of the former government who no one would deny, I'm quite certain, that he did the best that he could working within tke government that he was connected with and that I'm sure had imposed some restraints and restrictions upon him, and the honourable member went on to say that, well, continuing

3418 May 13, 1974 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd ) .•• along that line, that whatever the government could be criticized for it was certainly not for education; that it was the Conservative Government which made it and took upon it as its foremost priority to bring--and I was making notes as I was going along, Mr. Chairman. I haven' t seen today's Hansard but I think that I have paraphrased his comments reasonably accurately when he said that "they were determined to bring, physically, oppor tunities for education to the people of Manitoba.

And I'm quite certain that he said that because he also went on to give examples, and he made mention of building of schools, building roads, consolidation of schools and so forth, all of the physical things which must be done in order to make it possible to deliver an education program. And I won't argue with the honourable member. I won't argue on that point. There is no doubt that during that period of time the unitary divisions came into being, and during that period of time consolidation occurred and small schools were closed and replaced by large schools. There' s no question about it what soever.

But I think there was one word used by the honourable member which is very very signi ficant of the general philosophy of my friends in opposition and perhaps reflects the general philosophy of their government when their political party was the government prior to 1969. He used the word "physically" and I think it' s quite apparent today, Mr.

Chairman, that that, more than just the prime but perhaps the only concern of that government, of that party when they were the government, was to make physical provision: build roads, build schools, put up buildings, and with the roads and buses and buildings that education will take place, education will take place and to heck with the programs, to heck with developing a suitable program, a relevant program designed to meet the needs of the times, of the community. That will somehow sort itself out. As long as the buildings and the roads are built, everything else will take care of itself.

Now I say it' s becoming apparent today, Mr. Chairman. We have our regional vocational high schools, very necessary, desirable, geared to operate first rate programs, and they certainly are, but one thing that the former government did overlook is to work out a mechanism within the grants structure which now we must correct; when I said we have to scrap the Foundation Grant formula and come up with a new one.

Because my honourable member knows full well that the Foundation Grant formula, which the previous government instituted and then proceeded to build the regional vocation high schools and at the same time retaining that grant formula, that it does militate against the expansion of the regional vocational high schools, militates against the regional vocational high schools serving the function that they were de signed to serve, the people of Manitoba.

Because the honourable member well knows that at the present time the bulk of the enrollment in the vocational high schools comes from the school division within which the vocational high school is located, because for every student that may enroll from another division it means it' ll reflect itself in some slight reduction - or, W!Jll, in fact not all that slight but perhaps significant reduction - in the grants accruing to the home school division, and therefore those are the horns of a dilemma that many school divisions and students find themselves, parents find themselves in at the present time.

The same could be said of Frontier School Division. It' s true that the previous govern ment did establish Frontier School Division, did make provision for the delivery of a high school program at Cranberry Portage in Frontier Collegiate, but they forgot to talk to the people. They thought that they were talking to the people through an appointed committee that they had established, which they called an advisory committee, which bore the name tag of being representative of the various communities in Northern Manitoba. But Mr.

Chairman, the people of Northern Manitoba had no opportunity whatsoever in determining who was to serve on that committee, as they do now - as they do now. Because today Mr. Chairman, the people of Frontier School Division do have some say in determining who will be their spokes man on the advisory committee that we have attached to the office of Official Trus tee for the school division. And one could go on, giving example after example, of cases where, when the honour able member says their prime concern was to make the physical provision for the improve ment of the educational program in Manitoba, it was.

Only that, and nothing more than that. Merely the concern for the physical provisions and no concern whatsoever to the program,no concern for local needs, a sort of an attitude that the needs of all are the same, be it the needs of the students in the Winnipeg School Division or the students in some rural school

May 13, 1974 3419 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd ) ... division in Northern Manitoba or wherever; that the needs are identical and whatever variations need be brought about, they can be either scaled down or increased in direct proportion to enrollment, but the same services can be provided every where and if that is done then that would be an ideal educational program for the children of Manitoba.

Then the honourable member went on to express his concern about the program for the handicapped chiidren, and in particular for the multiply-handicapped children, and as I have indicated to the honourable member at that time, and when I made the response that I did when I said, "Read Hansard," I did it being mindful of the rules of the House, Mr. Chair man, because I am certain that you well know that repetition is not permitted under our rules and therefore I did not want to violate any rules of the House.

However, to assist the honour able member, and if he is experiencing any difficulty in locating the particular portion within my introduction of the estimates where I made reference to the handicapped children, I just wish to make brief reference to it again today, when I said that we have moved cautiously in this area - and I am very much aware of the growing frus trations and anger of parents of children with disabilities, and I will not at this juncture even attempt to dwell in detail on this problem except to indicate that the range of handicapped children is so broad that

definitions have not been clearly worked out, and the honourable member, I'm quite certain that he knows that there are differences of opinion even amongst the professionals working with children in this category. Now, I know that the City of Winnipeg has undertaken a pilot or an experimental project at Montcalm School, where they offer a program designed to deal with the multiply-handicapped children. Now that program, of course, is in its experimental stages.

I• m certain that if one were to speak to the administration and to the board of the Winnipeg School Division that they themselves, you know, could not offer any assu rance whether that is the type of program that they will continue operating in the years to come or not.

There are different schools of thought as to the type of program that is most suited for children suffering with afflictions of this type, but nevertheless, I think that all of us would agree, and I think that recent trends, not only in the Province of Manitoba but probably univers ally, have indicated, have demonstrated a swing away or shift away from the institutionalized form of training, which was quite common and for which provision is made in this province, not in the Department of Education but in the Department of Health and Social Development, a shift from the institutionalized training to providing some form of training within the child's own home and community environment.

And there' s no question about the desirability of moving in that direction. But the honourable member will also realize and agree, I'm sure, that one ought not seize upon the first program of that kind that one may become aware of, and say, "This is it; this looks good, and this we're going to implement on a full scale to meet the needs of all such children in the Province;" that this will require considerable research and proceeding with cau tion, the exercise of close scru tiny in applying all the checks and tests to make cer tain that we are moving in the right direction.

A number of weeks ago, when the Winnipeg School Division representatives of the board and administration met with me and the Honour able Minister of Health and Social Development, we did indicate at that time, and we have committed ourselves to offering assistance for the establishment and development of a pilot program in this particular field, and certainly we'll move on that as quickly as we can and in co-operation and in conjunction with that school division or those school divisions that may be involved in such a pilot project.

Then the honourable member did proceed to ask me directly about what's going to happen to a constituent of his: Will provision be made for that young boy to obtain some form of training? Well, Pm sure that he would want to see this happen as quickly as possible, and he was very reasonable and did say, I believe next fall, being mindful of the fact that this year, well it's another five, six weeks to go and that's the end of it. Perhaps even, in the best interests of the child, it may not be wise to commence any course of training now and then bring it to an end in six weeks• time.

I don' t know, I'm not a medical man; I'm not a psycholo gist, a psychiatrist, but it would seem that way, that perhaps it would be preferable to wait until next September.

3420 May 13, 1974 INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. I would just like to make a brief announcement here. I'd like to draw the attention of the members to the gallery, where we have 21 students from Balmoral Hall, Grade 5. They are under the direction of Mrs. Klymkiw. These students are from the constituency of the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. On behalf of the members, I bid you welcome. The Honourable Minister of Education. SUPPLY - ED UCATION (Cont'

d) MR. HANASCHUK: Pursuant to a meeting with the Winnipeg School Division and with some interested organizations who are interested in the welfare of children of this type, as I have indicated before we did make a commitment to move in this direction, and pursuant to that commitment that we made, Mr.

Chairman, discussions have been held and are continuing the subject matter of which is the submission made by the Winnipeg School Division to us, and negotiations are under way to determine a plan for the implementation of the proposal, or--1 should be very careful because I would not want anybody to say to me next September in the event that it's some variation of what was proposed by the Winnipeg School Division, but negotiations are under way for the development, on a pilot basis, a program which would pro vide training in the home environment for multiply-handicapped children such as those pre sently in receipt of such a training program at Montcalm School.

It is my hope that the negotiations will proceed at a rate to make it possible for some formal announcement and getting under way a pilot program on a meaningful basis at the commencement of the next school year. In conjunction with that, I'll be quite happy to inform the Honourable Member for Lakeside that the interests of Stephen Neil will be borne in mind and a spot will be found for him in a school in the Winnipeg School Division. Now the Honourable Member for Assiniboia raised a number of points.

He was con cerned about the provision of tempOrary classroom accommodation; that in one instance he felt that the temporary accommodation was not entirely satisfactory. Well, I wish to remind the honourable member that the provision of classroom accommodation is the responsibility of the school board, be it permanent or temporary. Now, we do offer assistance in the provision of temporary accommodation and this happens quite frequently upon application from the board, and I just wish to advise you, Mr.

Chairman, that last year the Public Schools Finance Board paid the costs of moving temporary classrooms from divisions which no longer had a need for them to those that did need them. Last year we paid for the moving of 87 temporary classrooms in this way from one division to another.

The Honourable Member for Assiniboia also spoke about the fact that children from the west end of the school division were bused to vacant accommodation or available accommo dation in the east end of the school division, and then he commented upon this as being indica tive of perhaps inadequate planning of assignment of classroom space to meet the needs of the community. Well here again, Mr.

Chairman, I must indicate to the honourable member that under the provisions of The Public Schools Act, that it is the responsibility of the Board to determine the location where schools are to be built and the assigning of schools, or students to schools. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia was wondering whether any boundary changes are being contemplated for the school divisions within Winnipeg. Now the Manitoba Association of--no, I should correct myself.

I don't believe it was the Manitoba Association of School Trustees but probably the Winnipeg, those trustees of the Winnipeg School Divisions, who did study this matter, and their study indicated a number of alternatives that could be pursued but at this point in time they have not come to me with an expression of any, any consensus on this particular point, so at the present time that is where the matter rests. The Honourable Member for St. Matthews expressed concern about student-initiated courses, and he can see thousands of such courses being planned and students seeking approval for them.

Well, as I have indicated in the Guidelines, the requirements are fairly strict so it won't be just a matter of a student indicating to someone that he wishes to obtain credit for a course that he may have designed. So I feel quite certain that the school divisions will proceed with care and caution, and allow this new thrust in our education program to develop carefully, prudently, and therefore there would not be a sudden--(lnterjection)--It won't

May 13, 1974 3421 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) ... create its own disaster because it will receive the guidance and the assistance of those charged with the responsibility of delivering education in the pro vince, namely the government, the teachers, the school boards, and it won't create its own disaster, so my honourable friend needn't have any worry of that. The Honourable Member for St. Matthews doubted whether school boards have the exper tise to evaluate a student-designed course. Well when I, Mr.

Chairman, when I said that this would be the responsibility of the school board to pass judgment on whether or not a student initiated course ought to be approved or not, it does not necessarily mean that some particular school trustee, that it would become the responsibility of some school trustee or of the board collectively to pass judgment on that particular course of studies.

The school board will assume the responsibility in the same manner as the school board assumes responsibility for many other facets within the education program, but many of the other functions are per formed, not by the board, but by their staff who have the necessary expertise to do that parti cular job: the superintendent, the principals, teachers and so forth.

So the school board - yes, the school board will have to give its blessings but certainly the school board will seek the advice of the professionally trained, the professionally competent people on their staff to advise them as to the merits of a student-initiated, a student-designed course. The Honourable Member for St. Matthews, in speaking about, in stating his concern about the possible dilution of the quality of education, and he did make the comment that every student has a right to fail; well, it's a philosophic point that one could discuss, and one that I probably would not seriously disagree with, Mr.

Chairman, but if he has a right to fail then he should also have the opportunity to succeed. But just simply allowing him to fail and not pro viding some means, an alternate course that he could pursue which will give him that opportunity to enjoy success, I don't think it's a-- you know, in the absenceof that, I don't think that it's a comment that we ought to pay too much attention to. And this is exactly what we are attempting to provide through the variety of educational programs that we have under way now, and which the previous government also recognized; although, as I indicated to you Friday, Mr.

Chairman they locked the students in to whatever choice they make end of Grade 9. You know, the general course, university entrance and so forth; there is no opportunity for transfer. But we do recognize the fact that s. student might fail. He might set out in one route and fail, or wish to change his plans for whatever reason. Then an opportunity should be provided him to transfer to another course of studies, to another program wherein he could go on to success. I just wish to make one more comment in response to his concern about the dilution of quality of education. May I remind the Honourable Member for St.

Matthews again that the school is not, or the Education Department is not the only actor having a key role to play in determining the standards of education, because by and large standards of education are determined by forces over which the Department of Education has absolutely no control.

What one must learn to practice, as I indicated to you on Friday, what one must learn to practice engineering or medicine or any particular trade isn't dictated by the school, but it is dictated by that particular trade or profession, and what one must know to practice it is in turn deter mined by the sum total and the effects of scientific and technological progress and advancement. And that determines the standard, the level of education that one must seek in order to pursue any particular occupation.

The Honourable Member for Roblin, I'm not quite certain what it was that he wanted to put across to the House when he expressed shock and dismay over the fact that I commented, or that I responded to a statement that he made in the course of the debate of the estimates of the Attorney-General.

And I repeat again for the honourable member, the reason why I responded is because he did make reference to the conduct of our youth in the public schools and therefore the proper department, or the proper spot in the estimates at which to respond to such a comment would naturally be the debate of the estimates of the Department of Education because that's what the Department of Education is all about, and therefore I chose to respond at this particular time.

The Honourable Member for Roblin wished to--he asked what specific assistance will my department offer in some of the school divisions within his constituency or neighbouring on his constituency--No, I guess all of them are to a greater or lesser degree in his constitu ency, namely Pelly Trail, Duck Mountain, Inter-Mountain. Now I wish to impress upon the honourable member again - I regret that he is not in his seat but I'm certain that if he is

3422 May 13, 1974 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) ... interested in reading my response that he will read this after noon's Hansard - I wish to impress upon the honourable member, Mr. Chairman, that the department should not and does not interfere in matters of a local board's concern. There have been a number of matters that have been bandied about in the press in recent times, some of the incidents related to two or three of the divisions that I've mentioned, but by and large, those matters, whatever they were, education program or buildings, they are matters of a local nature.

However, if the local trustees wish the assistance of my department, I would certainly encourage my staff to provide such assistance on request from the boards and admini strations of the school divisions on those specific matters. I know that the honourable member no doubt is very much concerned about the school buildings in Inter Mountain. Well that, Mr. Chairman, is a local matter.

If there is any dispute between the board and the architect or the contractor, that's for them to pursue, but when it comes to providing classroom space, if such is not available, then the Public Schools Finance Board will certainly come to their assistance. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister's time is up. Resolution 47. 1 (a)--pass; (b) (1)--pass. (The balance of Resolution 47, and Resolution 48 were read and passed. ) Resolution 49, 3. (a)--pass; (b)--The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Chairman.

I think there were some questions that were asked regarding this particular item and I don't think we've got the answers on record yet. Specifically, one question here is the school tax rebate, and the question: Is there an accounting within the government that breaks down the rebate - property tax rebate rather than the school tax rebate - whether it's broken down into that portion that goes to school tax rebate and that portion that goes to municipal tax, or is it all lumped together? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: No, Mr. Chairman, there is no breakdown. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Chairman, just to, for purposes of the record, to be clearer, the amount shown for this rebate actually is school tax rebate plus property municipal tax rebate, is it not? That is, for a person in 1973 - which is the most recent year that we have - con ceivably his $100. 00 minimum rebate could have been made up of, say, $60. 00 in school tax and the remainder in municipal, which would bring him to the minimum $100. 00. Providing his combined bill was over $100. 00, he still got the $100. 00. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HONOURABLE SAUL CHERNIACK Q. C. (Minister of Finance): Mr. Chairman.

I'm not in my proper seat, but because of the arrangement made the Honourable Minister of Education is, and may I be permitted to speak from this . . . ? MR. CHAIRMAN: Agreed? (Agreed) MR. CHERNIACK: On the question raised by the Member for Riel, I do not believe we keep those records, although I presume it could be made available, with some considerable work, through the municipalities. When we first introduced our school tax rebate system, it was attributable to school taxes only, and therefore when school tax would be less than the minimum payable, then only the amount of the school taxes would be paid.

When we increased the property tax rebate to a minimum of $100. 00, at that time we did so knowing that in many cases the school tax portion was less than the $100. 00 and therefore we broadened the entire field to cover both the property taxes, which would be both municipal and schooL I think then it would be an academic process if one wanted to split as between the two.

Probably, as we stated it here, our intent was to take over .all of the education tax up to the amounts payable through the property tax credit and let any amount in excess of the school tax portion, which would still come within the formula, to apply against the property tax. But to the property taxpayers it really doesn't make any difference, and therefore we instructed the municipalities that in their billing they should credit the tax bill, the total tax bill, with the $100. 00 minimum or the total amount of the tax, whichever was the lesser. And therefore I do not believe we've kept that record.

I did hear the question asked; I did make a mental note to confirm what I am now saying. I confess that I was unable to do so because l' ve been ill the last week, but I will go right down and see if I can get any more definitive answer than I have already given. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Chairman. The Minister, in indicating the portion of the costs borne by the Provincial Government of Public Schools Administration, he indicated it was of the

May 1 3, 197 4 3423 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. CRAIK cont'd) ••. order of 72 percent for the current year, but I think that then in view of the fact that part of the rebate, which will this year be close to the 50 million dollar mark, that a portion of that, some portion of that is actually not schools financing, it is municipal financing. So that I think it should be clear on the record that the portion of the public school administration cost carried by the provincial government probably is not 72 percent, as indi cated, but is 72 less the amount of money of the 50 that goes towards municipal only. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. GEORGE MINAKER (St. James): Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Minister can elaborate on how he arrived at the 72 percent figure. I' m referring to his comments on May 9th where he said, "I would like to indicate to you, Mr.

Chairman, that via our tax credit sys tem, via our adjustments in the grants sys tem, the student grants, the student equalization grants, examining the sum total, that this year the province is picking up something in the order of better than 71 , between 71 and 72 percent of the total school expen ditures in the Province of Manitoba." And I wonder if the Minister at this time could elaborate in more detail on how he arrived at that percentage figure, and what percent, or what total of the property tax credit rebate program would be in that figure. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR.

HANUSCHAK: The total expenditures are .244 million dollars. That's the total expenditures of all the school divisions in the province of Manitoba. The Foundation Program, the Foundation levy ; then there are some other grants for which we act as a transfer agent in a sense. You know, some federal grants for French, perhaps one or two others that don' t come to mind at the moment, which total up to about $4 million. Anyway, on the property tax credit it totals up to 17 5 million, and 175 and 244 is close to 72 percent. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. MINAKER: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister, did you say - through the Chairman - that there was a property tax credit of 75 million dollars ? MR. HANUSCHAK: I didn' t say that. MR. CRAIK: I wonder if the Honourable Minister could repeat exactly what he said the tax credit portion was, in terms of dollars. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Educa tion. MR. HANUSCHAK: The tax credit's in the order of 50 million dollars, Mr. Chairman. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Chairman, in view of this, again, with the budgets now tabled by the City of Winnipeg, the increases indicated by their budgets are in the Greater Winnipeg area, 10. 8 million dollars on education increase and 12 . 6 million dollars increase on municipal, bringing a total of 23. 4 million increase, and the rebate increase in 1974 will be-- the way we calculate it, it looks like the rebate increase in the Winnipeg area apportioning the number of students in the Winnipeg area, would bring back 4. 4 million, which means that only 19 percent of the increased costs on property in the Winnipeg area are going to be covered by the increase in rebate.

In other words, 81 percent of the costs increase in 1974 in the Winnipeg area, 81 percent are going to be picked up by property tax, the special levy plus the municipal levy on property. Now, Mr. Chairman, the property tax credit system that the government has announced the increase of 50 dollars, increase in the ceiling by 50 dollars, then in effect on average may have some impact on people that have very low assessm ents, under $6, 000 assessm ent, but in total the increase is going to amount to - in the mill rates - this 23. 4 million dollar increase was only that 4. 4 being picked up by the tax credit plan.

So, since the govern ment is lumping municipal in with education in this tax credit plan, I think that somehow this doesn' t seem to have been isolated yet and it is important to point out at this time that the increased costs of property tax are only going to be covered, as far as we can see from re sults of the information we have here and the City of Winnipe g' s put out, 19 percent covered by the increase in rebate, and 81 percent is going to have to be picked up by increased property taxes in the Greater Winnipeg area. MR. HANUSCHAK: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I really don' t see how the honourable member can calculate the increase in property tax credit which will accrue as a result of the variance in the budget. A MEMBER: ... Eight million dollars ... MR. CHAIRMAN: (Resolution 49 was read and passed. ) Resolu tion 50. 4. (a) (1 )--pass; 4(a) (2) -pass. Resolution 50--pass.

3424 SUPPLY - EDUCATION A MEMBER: What about your (b) ? May 13, 197 4 MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh I' m sorry. (The balance of Resolution 50 was read and passed) Resolution 51. 5(a) (1 )--The Honourable Member for Laverendrye. MR. BOB BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to put on the record some of my thoughts, and I think they were expressed very adequately to a certain extent by the Member from Brandon West, and also by the Member from Riel.

As somebody that has come out of the school system relatively a short while ago, about eight years ago, I've noticed changes, and quite substantial changes, in not only curriculum but also in the, I think as the Member from St. Matthews mentioned, a dilution of the quality of education. Just after I left school, the OEC Program was introduced and I find, speaking with teachers involved in teaching in these different curriculums, that both the academic and the OEC seems to be running together.

Instead of having two distinct, different courses, the two are being amal gamated, and there seems to be a blending taking place and the recognition between the two courses is virtually gone. I think the whole system with regard to discipline and everything has taken a step backwards .

I remember when, the short eight years ago when I was there, you were subj ect to a one week sus pension if you skipped out of the Friday afternoon religious class, and now you can go to a coffee shop during the afternoon and the game that seems to be being played is how many students can skip out of a class to have coffee dur ing coffee break. I think another thing that's happening is because of the decreased enrollment we are possibly being forced to lower our standards in order to maintain. . . MR. GREEN: I would just like the honourable member to take a ques tion if he would. MR. BANMAN: Yes. MR.

GREEN: I want to make sure I understood him. That you were susp ended or had a susp ension of one week for failing to attend a religious class? MR. BANMAN: Not myself, but it was ... MR. GREEN: That was the rule ? In which school was that? MR. BANMAN: That was a thing that happened eight years ago when I went to school. In a Steinbach school.

Now, another area along the same lines is I feel that with again the relaxation of possibly discipline regulations, and even the academic requirements, people are now--the Mature Student is now writing a Grade 12 examination, and I would ask the Minister if, when this particular program was implemented, if a person who' s writing this exam, if the age is part of the factor; in other words, when a person has to meet a certain standard of passing is age taken into consideration? Is there a sliding scale to make adjustments on who passes it?

In other words, if somebody is 25, are the standards higher than if somebody is 50 years old? And once again, just to finally sum it up, Mr. Chairman, I feel that someone that possibly wasn' t that good in school because possibly I didn' t exert myself properly and that was one of the reasons that I had trouble making it through high school, I feel with the direction we're taking right now, maybe by waiting a couple of years and maybe by just virtue of my body being in some educational institute_, I might receive a diploma and maybe that will be the course, maybe the way that I should get my university education.

And I hope this is a serious look at--this should be looked at quite seriously by the Department, I think, and I think we should definitely tighten our belt a bit and make sure that the curriculum is such where people still have to work in order to achieve their diplomas and have to definitely have somewhat of a desire and somewhat of a capability to pass on and to further your education. MR. CHAIRMAN� The Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, the Honourable Member for La Verendrye expressed concern about the fact that the OEC, the Occupational Education Class, and the rj:lgular academic program are running together, as he put it. That is true. Of course it is. For the reason that I have mentioned on at least two or three occasions.

But we do believe that our educ ation program should be designed in such a way as to allow for this type of transferability; that if a student enrolls in a OEC class, if it should become apparent to him, his parents, the students, the teachers, that he can enter a regular academic program and proceed with it satisfactorily, and he has the desire to do so, then the opportunity for transfer should be there. But this in no way, Mr. Chairman, is any indication of a dilution of the academic standards of our program.

It simply is an indication of the flexibility of our education program which is designed to meet the needs for all students, which allows a student to transfer from

May 13, 1974 3425 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) .•. one program to another at whichever time the need should arise, at whichever time it may be to his benefit and advantage. The honourable member also made reference to the fact that in his day at school the rule was one week suspension for skipping a religion class on Friday afternoon. --(Interject ion)--I beg your pardon. MR. BANMAN: That is what happened in one particular instance. I didn't say it was the rule. MR. HANUSCHAK. That happened in one particular instance and it was not the rule.

Well, if that happened in one particular instance I really do not know what would have prompted the school administration to take such action as the honourable member believes or was infor med was taken, or recalls it was taken. Attendance at religious classes is voluntary, so therefore I find it's just difficult to comprehend why the school administration would have taken such action. The honourable member feels that at the present time the name of the game, as it were, in school is to practice the art of skipping, the art of skipping classes. Well that, Mr. Chairman, I do find difficult to accept.

If there are students skipping classes, of course there are, and I'd be naive to say that there aren't but there had been students skipping classes ten years ago, and twenty and thirty and forty years ago, and I'm sure that all of us can con fess to having skipped classes at some time or another. Now having said that, I do not wish to leave anyone with the impression that I condone that, or that something ought not be done to minimize and curb skipping classes, and in fact I think that we have done that. The time tabling process on a semester, trimester system is quite different.

It's true that students have more time to devote to individual study, to work on their own, and if the honourable member hasn't had an opportunity - and as he has indicated that just a few years ago that he lef t the public school system - no doubt in a few years to come he will have the opportunity to learn personally, and to acquire personal information as to what the students in fact do with their time, and he will find that today, and also with the continuous progress system of evalu ation of their performance students are probably working two and three and four times as hard in school as they may have been in his day in high school and my day in high school when the name of the game was how to beat the examination system. -- (Interjec tion)-- The honourable member knows full well, I'm sure he can recall his own high school days when Easter time approached or shortly thereafter, the month of April, the beginning of May, you went around collecting old exam papers and you attempted to determine the odds of a question being asked this year on this particular topic, on that topic, and you concluded that while it's unlikely that you'll be asked on this topic because for the past three years there was a question on that particular topic, but here's one that there was no questions asked on it for the past two years and it's a fairly important one, so this may be the year for it, and you concentrate upon that.

And, like I said, if the Honourable Member for St. James wishes to . . . A MEMBER: The Honourable Member for Lake side has gone to the library. MR. HANUSCHAK: You know, and that's the way things went, but I know and I can assure the honourable member that for every student that he may have found somewhere, at some time, who may appear to have been skipping classes, there are probably 50 others who are working very very diligently in the school library, at home, in the classroom, or wherever else they may be. The honourable member wanted to know whether age is a factor in the marking of the GED tests.

Well the answer to that is no. They are given the number of questions of a general knowledge type which they answer, the papers are marked, and the results on that test de termine whether the writer of the test earns a Grade 12, the equivalent of a Grade 12 standing, or 11, or Grade 10. Now I believe the point that he was trying to make in his closing remarks was that had he perhaps dropped out of school earlier, waited a few years, he could have written the GED test today and obtained a high school standing, as sort of being indicative of some form of dilution of the quality of education of today.

Well that isn't so at all. All that the GED test does, or what the writer of a GED test receives upon the successful completion of it, is a statement saying that his level of academic educational competence, and knowledge is the , equivalent of a particular level, but it doesn't indicate that he has produced evidence or proof of having mastered a certain level of competence in any pari;icular subject area. And

3426 May 13, 197 4 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) •.• even the mature students, the mature student who may wish to enroll in the Faculty of Medicine or the Facu lty of Engineering or Architecture, which requires a certain basic level of proficiency, knowledge of certain basic concepts in mathematics or physics or chemistry or whatever, those requirements will still be there.

And if he wishes to enroll in a faculty such as I have mentioned, or any other that requires some particular skill in some definite subject academic area, that he would still have to acquire it, he would still have to develop it, regardless of his age. So the presence of the GED test in no way--has no bearing at all upon the quality or the level of standard of education or of requirements of students of today.

But for all practical purposes in the world of work, for example one applies for a job as a sales clerk or in some other field of work, and the requiremen t is that he have Grade 11 or Grade 12 standing, and the 35, 40-year-old or whatever age he may be, who may have discontinued school at the Grade 9 level, despite the fact that what he had learned through actual experience in his years after school probably equalled if not surpassed what may have been taught in the school system, and in fact in many of the subj ect areas, he on his own, he may have read history, he may have been very active in various groups which were in history, political science, psychology, whatever else is a very relevant factor, and through a process of experience and reading, perhaps not writing any formal exams but in those various other ways, he may have developed that type of skill and proficiency, but because he had not the opportunity to sit down and write an examination to show that his level of proficiency is at whatever it may be, the best he can produce applying for a job is his Grade 9 or Grade 10 certificate.

So this is an opportunity for people like that, who have developed certain skills over the years, to obtain credit for them and use them in the ways as I have suggested. But I repeat again, that insofar as the requirements of our post-secondary institutions are concerned, whatever mathematics one must master to handle a certain post-secondary course or physics or science or whatever else it may be, still remains there. That hasn' t changed one bit. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Minister, during his last few words a,nyway and certainly up until now in his Estimates, has used statements like "work on their own" referring to students; he' s also said we'd be amazed at what they do with their own time. He's also talked about, you know--basically his statements, the way I interpret them, they' re asking a student to decide at a very early age what he wants to be in life, and it was at one time, Mr.

Chairman, and I .would hopefully think that it will be this way in Manitoba, that when a boy or girl leaves school that they are equipped to maybe go into some form of occupation or work, but if they wanted to decide to do otherwise in their life, they would then be able to go to university and do it. And the way we are approaching the curriculums at the present time in our system is not doing that. In fact, Mr. Speaker, we are boring the girls and boys in our education system to death. They are bored with school, Mr. Chairman. I am going to be a little like the Member from St.

Boniface who used his own family and his own circumstance as an example. When I say circums tances, I'll talk about a group of boys and girls that have been close to our family through my children for many years. I have a da�.<ghter that I didn' t have to send to school. She was anxious to go there, anxious to work, and I really had no problems in any way, shape or form. Many of her friends were the same way. I have a son who, if you were to say to him, "W ould you like to go to school ?

Would you like to go to a study period when you've got a free class ?" hewould say, "no, I would rather go skating;! would rather go out and play football with the boys or go down to the pool hall -.with my friends that have quit school because they'r e bored to death with school. " And I assure you there are many, many boys and girls like them. The Member from Winni peg says it's the parents' job, and I am sure here we all are as parents. My son and his gang are a bunch of Hoosiers. I' ve never met a better gang of guys in my life.

They don' t get in that much trouble, any more trouble than any other group of boys . They can be convinced; they can be talked to by their parents. In fact, we can take the car away from them for the weekend if they're not going to do their studying. We also have to say, "You've got minds of your own," from time to time, but when we send them back to school, or they get there they're bored to death. "W hy am I here? Nobody here is saying there's discipline to make me do this. At home they want us to do this. At home we get some dis cipline, but when we get to school we've got another story entirely. "

May 13, 1974 342 7 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. F. JOHNSTON cont'

d) Mr. Speaker, if the Minister if going to be so naive as to think that you are going to be able to say to a boy or a girl, most of them - not all - there are terrific studiers .but they're not all studiers; they're all human beings; they're all normal boys and girls, and studying is a bit of hard work. And a bit of hard work, to some boys and girls that age, is something� that they just don' t like to do that readily, and they have to have some discipline to make them do it. Now, we are just dreaming if you think otherwise.

And yet we are saying we are going to have them decide what courses they are going to take; we are going to have them decide all of these different curriculums that ·are set up. You know, the CORE Report - which is a bunch of drivel - the students at the St. James Collegiate discussed that CORE Report about a year or two ago and they generally - generally - thought it was a terrible thing. The students really believe they need guidance and the students want guidance.

Now if anybody seriously believes that a happy student or a happy boy and girl is one that is trying to make decisions that they really don' t know how to make without proper guidance and some discipline, you' re wrong. A happy boy and girl is one that knows where they're going, and sometimes they may not like it but they have this direction and they know where they're going. Mr. Chairman, I use my own instance. I ended up in the"home for incurables" as we called it, St. John's College School for Boys; where we did something wrong we were put over a chair and got six across the rear end.

Now I'm not saying that that is the proper way but it made me open a book once in a while, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, and we would have boys there when I was a prefect at that school, who were very much at loose ends be cause they didn' t know where they were going. But once they got it laid down before them, and got it explained to them that the reason this is being done is so that when you leave this institution you will have the chance to probably do whatever you want to do in this world, they started to unders tand and go to work.

And once in a while when you have convinced and talked to a boy or girl, and I don' t believe that we should try to convince them unless we do have the time to talk to them, that "what we are doing is really for your own benefit, " they will accept that certain disciplines that have to be laid down for them to do some good. And remember, Mr.

Chairman, that every day we grow a little bit older we learn something, and here we are sitting here talking about boys and girls who are fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, who haven' t been out in that hard-knock world for a while, or have never been there - and they'r e going to be there. And the way we have to talk to them and convince them is that certain disciplines now will help you an awful lot when you get out there. So don' t let' s live in a dream world that says the average boy and girl loves school. You know, we often hear "it was the happiest day of my life when I was in school.

" Do you know why they say that? Because it was easy there. And we should make it just a little tougher in there. We should have those little bit of disciplines, and if you think really that - as I say again - that you ask a boy or girl--and I could say to some of the honourable members on this side and that side, you know, we talked about skipping. It wasn' t a practice to skip school. Frankly, it was an art if you could get away with it back in those days. We used to have the odd truant officer at one time that dragged you back to school.

But don' t get any funny ideas that the average boy and girl, when he's at school, or she' s at school, will say, now that I'v e got a free study period, will automatically go and pick up a book and study, is absolutely wrong, because it just won't happen. The man upstairs, the man upstairs, you know, he hasn't changed the way they made us yesterday or last year, and it' s human nature and it' s kids who would like to enjoy life. They're not bad because they want to skip a class and do·· something else.

The Minister obviously only taught children who wanted to keep studying all the time, but there are those that don' t, and I say that it is pretty much a majority. And the boys and girls today are bored, absolutely bored. You go up to Thompson, the fellow I know in Thompson who owns a pool hall. They were all quitting school because they were bored with school. Go down and ask the fellow that owns the pool hall in St. _James where the gang hangs out. The kids are there because they're bored with school. You're not giving them any challenges or any discipline, and the work, work ethic. Sports in schools.

Where 's the day gone where somebody said to you, you can' t play football unle ss your marks are better? Because maybe you'll go out and make them a little better. Now if you think that the boys and girls--(lnterjection)--Well it would seem that way

342 8 May 13, 1974 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. F. JOHNSTON cont'd) •.• because they're not given any challenge to do so. But the day will come that you'l l be all sitting around very surprised, wondering why the kids haven' t really taken hold and worked at their classes, because there's no challenge being given to them, there' s no direction being given to them, there's no discipline being given to them. Everything we're doing today is taking it away. And they want to work. They want to work hard and they don' t want it made easy. There are teachers today who want to taKe the challenge to work with boys and girls.

You know, we hear a lot of criticism of teachers, I might say, from time to time but that' s not entirely right. I know the teachers in my constituency, in my area, certainly want to take the time to work with students but, you know, they don' t get the chance. We keep changing the curriculum to let the student make the decision all the time, and that just isn' t going to work. Mr. Chairman, this particular subj ect has been well worked over in the Education estimates.

We can talk about it as long as you like, but it boils down to tl:e fact you' re dreaming if you think that you can have curriculums the way we're going to, and have a good educa tional system without direction and guidance and some discipline for the boys and girls that are going there, and they' re also going to need that kind of guidance so that when they leave Gr'lde 12 or Grade 11 that they can go on to whatever they want to be. If a boy or girl wants to quit school, that's fine. In fact sometimes, Mr.

Chairman, I would suggest with the way its going right now they might be better off to quit and go out and get a job. You can almost believe that. But if they're going to be in that school system and working and staying there, they should have the discipline, direction, challenge, people working with them, so that when they leave they're prepared and ready to go into different walks of life.

And stop asking boys and girls to make up their minds on their future when they'r e very young in life, because many times I think any of you gentlemen here, if we' d asked you when you were in Grade 9 if you were going to be sitting in this Legisl ature, you' d have said "You'r e crazy. " All our times and lives change when we start getting into the working world. Give them the chance to get in that world prepared to do whatever they want to do. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM (Rupertsland): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

As usu al, I disagree with the Member from Sturgeon Creek. I'd like to make a few comments on what he has just said. Most of the comments he made,most of the statements he made, seemed to be conflicting in terms of a logical argument. He said that the students in the schools are bored, and he seems to attribute this to a slackening up in discipline and a change in the way in which curriculum is being devised.

It seems to me that if students are bored in school that they're not bored because there's discipline or they're not bored because there' s a lack of discipline, they' re not bored because there are challenges in the system whereby they can have some say in how the subj ect matter, the course curriculum is laid out. Students are bored generally because they're forced to learn courses, forced to learn subj ects which have absolutely no interest to them whatsoever.

The departmental system, as the Member for La Verendrye had said, it's eight years since he was out of school, out of high school, and he made some comments on his experiences in high school. Well it' s ten years since I was in high school, since I graduated from high school, and I can tell you that the students that were attending high school when the departmentals were in force, where you wrote your exam at the end of the year and whether you passed or failed that exam determined how well you did.

It meant that if you knew course material that didn' t happen to be on the exam that you weren' t able to put down in that three-hour period that you sat and wrote an exam, it meant that you didn' t get any credit for learning that material. You weren' t learning to learn for any interest on your own part, you were learning to pass an exam. That wasn' t learning. This is the kind of discipline the Member from Sturgeon Creek is talking about, discipline of the type "learn or I'l l beat you. 11 Well, the result of that kind of discipline in schools, that kind of a learning situation, is that you memorize.

It' s rote memorization. You learn and you regurgitate it back on to a paper, and as soon as possible afterwards, you forget what you've learned because you didn' t learn it with any object of unders tanding what you were learning, you were learning it just for the purpose of getting it on to an exam . And many of the students, the most successf ul students within that system were the ones with the photo graphic memories that did absolutely nothing all through the year; they did absolutely nothing, and two weeks before the exam they would take their books home, they would take their books

May 13, 1974 3429 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. BOSTROM cont'd) ••. home two weeks before the exam, memorize the material, come to the exam, write the exam, pass them. Two weeks after the exam they had forgotten every thing they'd memorized, because the object of their studying, the object of their working on those courses was not to have any basic understanding of the material, any basic unders tanding of the subject matter of the courses, the object was to learn to memorize just in order to get it down the next day on the exam.

The kinds of changes that are coming about in the education system, where the curri culum can be made more meaningful to students, where students can have an oppOrtunity to learn what they want to learn, this is a lot better than this rote memorization. I submit that rote memorization of this type, which is motivated by departmental examinations, is not real learning at all.

I would say that understanding comes through discovery, unders tanding comes through learning something because you want to learn it, not because somebody' s standing over you with a stick or standing over you with a departmental examination which says, "Learn this stuff for that exam or you fail. " They talk about challenge being lost in the schools. Well I can say that there was no challenge under the old system. You were channelled into a particular area; you had five courses to take; you had absolutely no option.

You took physics and chemistry and French and English and whatever else there was, You had absolutely no choice. That kind of learning that kind of forcing people into subj ects and courses they have no desire to take, is what brings on boredom in the schools, and I commend the department' s efforts to change curricu lums, to make them more meaningfu l to people; make them more meaningful so that students in the high schools can get some meaning out of learning. They'll have an opportunity to learn things that they want to learn, not be forced into taking courses that they have absolutely no desire to take.

I'd like to comment further, Mr. Chairman, on the Education Estimates as they apply to education in the North, and I heard the Honourable Minister' s comments on his de partment's Native Education Branch and I commend the department• s eff orts in this area. They can' t do enough as far as I'm concerned. There' s a number of concerns in the North regarding curriculum in the schools. If curricu lum is a problem in the high schools in the South, curriculum is doubly a problem in the high schools in the North, and in the elementary schools.

I commend the department' s efforts as far as they have gone in the development of means by which the native languages can be taught in the schools in the North. I know that in Norway House at the present time the Cree language is being taught, Cree syllabics is being taught, and there are some efforts made at introducing Cree language in the high schools, or the elementary schools, rather in the North in the elementary grades and the primary grades.

And I would say that I would support the introduction of the Cree and Oj ibway languages, particularly in those remote and isolated communities where the main language of the children when they enter their first year of schooling is the Indian language, whether it be Cree, Ojibway or Chippewyan and that the first years of their educational experience should be in that language. They should be taught in that language for the first several years and be introduced to the English language as they develop a grasp of schooling.

In other countries this experiment seems to have had considerable success where the language of instruc tion, the first language of instruction is the first language of the student and not introduce them into a foreign educational system where they are expected to compete with other students who enter the education system at that stage already being able to speak the English language, and having been speaking it for three or four yea rs. I believe that there should be more effort at teaching of culture into the schools of the north.

We must recognize the culture and contributions of the native people, and I commend the department's efforts in this area to take out the discrimination found in textbooks, discri mination which lends one to believe that the native people of Manitoba and of Canada had no real contribution in the history of this country. These inaccuracies should be omitted from textbooks and the proper, the true story be told.

And the real contribution and culture of the Indian people and their contributions to the history of this country should be recognized, and they should be recognized through course content in the elementary schools of this province and in the high schools. In this area I commend the department's efforts towards the cur riculum development in schools in Northern Manitoba. I don't believe however that enough

3430 May 13, 197 4 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. BOSTROM cont'd) ... has been done; I believe more should be done over the next fiscal year and following years.

The program of curriculum development should in fact include the actual communities that fall within the juri sdiction of Frontier School Division, and certainly some effort should be made to include the native communities that fall within the jurisdic tion of the Department of Indian Affairs, and actually get the people involved in assi sting the department in devising a curriculum which would be meaningful to the people of the north and not try to transfer the southern curriculum directly into those schools and expect it to be successful.

I commend the department's efforts in the IMPACT Program, the involvement of the IMPACT Program. I know that a few years ago, in fact four or five years ago you could hardly find a native teacher in any of the schools, in any of the remote communities or re serves. Yet today there are teachers graduating from these programs who hopefully will be the new staf f of the northern schools in the future, and we'll have staf f that are aware of the problems of the people and are best able to relate to these people.

The IMPACT Program as I unders tand is working well in Fort Alexander where it has been introduced, teaching it right in the community. There are plans as I know to include this program in the Norway House area to actually teach the native teachers right in the north, to train the native teachers right in the north, and I believe this is the way it should be done. I believe that the develop ment, the establishment of a Native Studies Department at the University of Manitoba will enhance this whole trend towards the development of a better curriculum in the elementary schools.

We'll have people who will be graduating from the university with some basic unders tanding of the native people's contribution and culture in this country. In the couple of minutes that I have left, Mr. Chairman, I would like to briefly say that the utilization of the schools that are built in Northern Manitoba remote communities and reserves and in rural areas should be looked at. These build ings that are often well over a million dollars in cost should be more effectively utilized and I think that this will come about through more local control of the education system at the local level.

The trend towards local control of schools in the north should be stepped up. The local people in the north should take over the control of their schools as quickly and as soon as they're ready, as soon as the department can assist them in taking over the control of their schools. And in this way they can better utilize the full resources at their disposal. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered ·Jertain resolutions, has directed me to report same and asks leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. HARRY SHAFRANSKY (Radisso.1.): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Ho:J.our able Member for Emerson, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Questions. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Minister in charge of Environ mental Management. It' s with regards to the announcement by the report of the U. S. State Department to the Federal Government regarding the Garrison project.

I wonder in view of the recommendations of the State Department's report whether the Provincial Government is now prepared to move ahead and push for an independent study of the effects of this project on Canada. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the only thing that I am aware of is a report in the news paper that is alleged to come from an informed source. I would accept for the moment that the report is correct. If there are indications to the Federal Government, which we will be made aware of, minimizingthe adverse effects which we are already cognizant of, then, Mr.

Speaker, as indicated previously the Government of Manitoba and the Government of Canada together will do such things as are neces sary to either verify or qualify such reports.

May 13, 1974 3431 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, in the April 4th Hansard on Page 21 43 the Minister indicates that the evidence produced showed significant proof of damage to Canada, significant proof of damage to Canada as opposed to the more recent recommendations which indicate that. . ·. MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR. CRAIK: . • . that the damage would be very minimal.

Can the Government of Manitoba and the Government of Canada move rapidly enough on their own studies at this point in order to prove their position, which at that time apparently was a belief that there would be significant damage, and what measures, if I can ask the second question at the same time, what measures can Canada and Manitoba now exercise to halt the project until those studies are done ? MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is asking me to comment on a report which indicates that the studies say something which should qualify our present government action.

I'v e indicated that we will see what the report says and as a result of seeing the report we will decide on what action should be taken. I also indicated to the honourable members that the phase that would link in to Canada does not start .until 1979 at the earliest, possibly 1980. We feel that we will have suff icient time to review the material which the honourable member is now referring to, to see whether it in fact is acceptable to us, and such studies as are neces sary to make that review would, Mr. Speaker, await seeing what that information is, and to this point I have not received that information.

I believe that the report said that this information was handed by the United States State Department to the Canadian Embassy, and our first step will be to review the information. If further steps are necessary, we will take them, Mr. Speaker, and we will rely on the United States State Department note that no constructions will be commenced which would pollute Manitoba water to the injury of persons or property. Up to this point there appears to be no argument from the United States.

If an argument does take place, which I advise the honourable members in the House may indeed occur, we will then have to deal with it on the basis of that argument. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the Minister's statement that in time we do have some time ... MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR. CRAIK: .. . to prove or disprove but the question, Mr. Speaker, is whether or not in over-all terms of the Garrison project if the American Government cannot proceed. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. CRAIK: Well, Mr. Speaker, I am asking the question.

If the American Government cannot proceed with the diversion into Canada, does this not in the Canadian Government's or the Manitoba Government' s examination of this not really rule out the entire Garrison projec t on a cost-benefit basis if they ... MR. SPEAKER: The question is hypothetical. The question is wrong. MR. CRAIK: Well, Mr. Speaker ... MR. SPEAKER: The honourable gentleman knows it. MR. CRAIK: Well, Mr. Speaker, then I raise a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Very well. MR. CRAIK: I raise a matter of privilege, Mr.

Speaker, and this question has been aimed at several times in the House as to whether or not the present examination of the project do not indicate that the project would be entirely unfeasible. . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. That is not a matter of privilege, that is an opinion. Unfortunately the honourable member is trying to use the question period to debate this par ticular point of view. It cannot be done, I'm sorry. The Honourable Member for Wolseley, Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. I. H. ASPER (Le ader of the Liberal Party) (W olseley): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Mines.

This relates to information thathe has had I believe for some time on Garrison, dealing with the solution to the pollution problem by injecting water, fresh water, into the river as it enters Manitoba. Has he made any investigation as to how much channelling would be required on the Souris River to accommodate the increased flows of water that would result or that are proposed to result from the Garrison diversion and the pumping of water into the system togJt rid of the salinity. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, the question of additional water in the Souris River

3432 May 13, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. GREEN cont'd) ... has been one of the factors that has been taken into consideration but I have to advise honourable members that I cannot deal with the issue piecemeal. The present position as we are aware of it is that the United States State Department has indicated that the Boundary Waters Treaty will not be violated. As to whether or not that makes the Garrison diversion feasible from the point of view of the United States, that question has not been looked into because that is a United States problem.

With regard to whether or not the United States is able to take ameliorative steps which would satisfy Canadian and Manitoba authorities that is hypothetical and I'm not prepared to comment on it. Mr . Speaker, before I yeild the floor there was an indication by Economic Development Committee that they would want to take a Saunders aircraft up to Gimli. A circular was presented last week which indicated that the greatest number of members of the committee would be prepared to do this tomorrow.

So I WJ uld like all party whips to indicate to their members of that Committee that there will be a Saunders aircraft ready to leave Ramp 1-A at the International Airport tomorrow at 9:45 and we will be back before lunch so that members will be back in Winnipeg shortly after noon. I would ask that this having been arranged that those members of the committee who are involved would please undertake to be there. I am also advised that this would not largely affect Municipal Aff airs Committee which cou ld meet tomorrow as well to deal with the matters now before it, so I would like to

schedule Municipal Affairs Committee tomorrow at 10: 00 o' clock if that meets with agreement of honourable members. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASP ER: Mr. Speaker, it' s so long ago I forgot the question.

Dealing with the Garrison, is it a fact that the pumping of fresh water into the Garrison and thereby softening the salinity would actually meet the requirements of the International Boundaries Treaty by allowing water to enter Canada unpolluted but would in fact, without breaking the International Boundaries Treaty, create a greater flow, greater than our river the Souris can accept without some fur ther channelling. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I believe thatthe question answers itself. If there is more water to dilute the salt there would be more water in the Souris.

I would indicate to honourable members that there has been some suggestion for some time that more water in the Souris would be a benefit. I'm not prepared to take that position at the moment. I have indicated all of these things would have to be looked at before the goverL.ment took a position with respect to any alternative plan. MR. SPEAKER: Order of the Day. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have a final supplementary.

In view of the fact that the plan to dilute the waters and the salinity has been known for some time, has the government got any Manitoba or Canadian based studies on the step that would be required to permit the Souris through channelling to absorbe that inflow, or are we still relying exclusiv ely on U. S. data? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I don' t accept the original assumption. The fact is that there have been various speculative ways of dealing with this. One is desalinization; one is diverting the canal southward into South Dakota rather than northward into Canada.

The Canadian Government and the Manitoba Government will be dealing with the information that is provided to us by the United States and if an additional report has now been provided, that is what we'll be looking at. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. R. (Bud) SPERMAN: (Fort Garry) : Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable the Minister responsible for Environmental Management.

I would like to ask him if there are any initiatives left to the province with regard to the predicted cankerworm epidemic this summer in Winnipeg or whether they are precluded by the course that is being followed by the Clean Environment Commission. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the Clean Environment Commission has made an order which I believe that the City of Winnipeg has not appealed from and is implementing. MR. SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. What I am asking the Minister is

May 13, 197 4 3433 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SHERMAN cont•d. ) .•... whether there are any initiatives left to the provi11ce in this field, or whether the province is not going to take a further initiative in this area? MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, the issue is being dealt with by the City of Winnipeg which has traditionally dealt with cankerworms. They have made an application to the Clean Environment Commission, which has been largely accepted and which they are proceeding to implement.

As to whether any additional steps could be taken by the province, we would then have to go before the Clean Environment Commission in the same way as the Department of Highways goes to the Clean Environment Commission with regard to the spraying of ditches. We are bound by the Clean Environment Commiss ion the same as the City of Winnipeg is. MR. SHERMAN: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. At this present time may it be assu med that the province is not intending to go before the Clean Environment Commiss ion on that ques tion? MR. GREEN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, let it perhaps be said the more positively that the action dealt with by the Clean Environment Commission deals with the problem of cankerworms to the extent that the city has dealt with it and we have not had any indication that there is any deficiency with respect to that particular matter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health and Welfar e.

Has the Minister received a signed petition from the people throughout the Birch River area regarding the re-opening of the hospital which has been closed for some time? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. SAUL A . MILLER (Minister of Health and Social Development) (Seven Oaks): No, Mr. Speaker, I have received no such petition. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ass iniboia. MR. STEVE PA TRICK (Ass iniboia): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Public Works .

Is the Minister, his department at the present time investigating the feasibility of purchasing the Winnipeg Public Safety Building ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. HON. RUSSELL J. DOERN (Minister of Public Works) (Elmwood): No, Mr. Speaker. MR. PATRICK: A supplementary. Is the Minister -- has any kind of investigation at the present time on recommendations from either his department or the City of Winnipeg? MR. DOERN: I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, I would ask if the member could repeat that, I did not quite understand his question. MR.

PATRICK: Is the Minister or his department conducting any kind of investigation on purchasing the Public Safety Bu ilding or has he got any kind of report from the City of Winnipeg government? MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, we are familiar with the Public Safety Building and our own requirements . There has been no formal request from the City, merely the observations or comments of one councillor. MR. PA TRICK: A supplementary. Has any decisi on been reached on the construction and location of a provincial court building and if they are, can the Minister give details to the House? MR. DOERN : Mr.

Speaker, there is a decision to proceed with an addition to the Magistrate' s Court Building adjacent to the exis ting Law Courts. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lak eside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS (L akeside): Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister can tell the Manitoba Hog Producers what, if any, encouraging news he may have for them with respect to trying to break through the present log jam in the marketing of hogs. I understand this week' s marketing will again be severely restricted. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agricultur e. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (L ac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I think the Honourable Member for Lakeside would be well advised to contact the producers Hog Mar keting Board for any information he wishes. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, despite the obvious disregard that the Minister shows for the producers in this province, would his government consider as a possible measure to lifting the

3434 May 13, 1974 ORAL QUES TIONS (MR. ENNS cont'd. ) •..•• compulsory feature of the Hog Marketing Board even if it were just on a very temporary basis to allow the farmers, the producers to find their own markets seeing that under the present situation the board is finding it difficult to do so. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, there are no new markets.

The only way in which a new market would be affected according to the statement of the Honourable Member for Lakeside is by way of farmers reducing their prices so that someone can afford to buy and store or what ever they wish to do with the product on a long term basis. I assume that' s what he's alluding to. MR. ENNS: Has the Minister through the help of his department been given any indication of the cost to the producers, the current economic loss to hog producers by having been forced to keep the hogs on the farm to overweight conditions, the resultant loss in terms of quality and grade. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, since every member of the Hog Producers Marketing Board is elected and every member is supported by a regional committee, I suspect that those people are in constant consultation with the board that has been elected and that they are doing the things that they feel they must do given the present situation of markets in North America. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: My question, Mr. Speaker, is to the Minister for Health.

Has the govern ment been advised that the day care program that begins on September 1, because of the five dollar per day payment per child will cause a decrease in the quality of programming and may force some day care centres to cut down on programming staff or equipment for the children? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I, too, am in receipt of the same telegram which the Leader of the Liberal Party obviously received. I don' t agree that the five dollar per diem which has been established is too low. I believe that it can make possible an excellent program.

This has been compared to other provinces and I think that what we've brought forward in Manitoba is a good program. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. In view of the information that he ob viously has received to the effect that per child costs range as high as seven or eight dollars, will he not consider an upward revision in the five dollar daily payment, even take into account parental income? MR_. MILLAR: Mr. Speaker, the formula that we've come up with is one which we worked together with the Federal Government, it's a cost-sharing program.

The five dollars per diem is calculated and based on a formula which takes into account the average income of a family of four in Manitoba and it is that figure which really is the key figure in arriving at the formula. We feel, as I said earlier, that the per diem we've come up with is one that can and will be effective in providing day care for those who need it across the province and not simply for a select few who may or may not be able to pay the money. MR. ASPER: Mr.

Speaker, to the same Minister, and I don' t wish to debate it, but would he agree to meet with the 200 parents representing the ten day care centres who believe that they are going to be impaired by his program, to at least discuss and let them make their case to him. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I believe I know the case, I'm not sure if meeting with 200 is going to resolve anything. Those people, the leaders or the representatives of these groups can of course meet with staff at any time and if a meeting with me is felt des irable I could cer tainly meet with them as well.

I wouldn' t undertake to meet with the entire 200, I don' t think that would prove anything. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lak eside. MR. ENN8 : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Health and Social Development. I wonder, Sir, if he can indicate whether he is in possession of a copy of the re port that was instituted some time ago with respect to Concordia Hospital? MR. MILLER: No, Mr. Speaker, I have never seen that report, if there is a report. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister feigned some question as to whether or not this particular hospital was su bjected to some kind of investigation or report, I think that was subject matter well discussed in this Chamber. My simple question is, has the government ever re reived a subsequent report and can it at this time give us any indication of what that report con tains?

May 13, 1974 3435 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. MILLER: Mr . Speaker, the report - I now recall the subject matter - the report was never ordered by government nor was to come to government to the best of my knowledge. It is a study by the Board of Concordia, by, I think, the Manitoba Assoc iation of Registered Nurses was involved, I believe the Health Services Commission, but it was not the Department nor the government per se. I' ve never asked for the report, I' ve never received a report. If it's completed it may be so, in which case the board of the hospital itself will be dealing with it. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Minister of Agri culture. Would the Minister inform the House as to the price per cwt, class 1, fluid milk pro ducers will be receiving for their milk in the month of May? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, based on the calculations as to the way in which milk is uti lized in the province and the planned prices, it is assumed that it should be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 9. 50 per cwt for the best quality of milk available in this province, and some where in the area of $8 to $8. 15 for a grade 2 quality of milk. MR. BANMAN: A su pplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Has the Minister received a report, the results of a report of a study done by members of his department recommending that Class 1 fluid milk producers receive an excess of $11 per cwt? MR. USKIW: Well I would assume, Mr.

Speaker, that the honourable member has not researched that particular subject fully, in that that particular reference has to do with only one concept of the dairy question and only one aspect of the milk that is marketed in this pro vince, namely No. 1 milk for the bottle trade. That does not mean, Mr. Speaker, that had that report been adopted that that would be the average price to the producers. It would be much less than that. MR. BANMAN: A final supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Could the Minister con firm that the Manitoba Milk Control Board is considering a further five cent a quart increase in milk? MR. USKIW: No, I don't believe they are considering any such thing at the moment, Mr. Speaker, because we have an agreement with the Government of Canada with respect to the five cent a quart subsidy to consumers of milk in this province which does not expire until sometime towards the end of the year.

And at that particular time of course there will be an opportunity to reassess the price question vis-a-vis the producer and the consumer, and it is true that if the Government of Ca nada withdraws from the subsidization of milk into a new contract - rather from a renewal of their present contract or if they refuse to renew, then there would have to be a price adjustment in the amount of the subsidy itself, which is five cents a quart. But I don't know what the federal intentions are in this respect at the present time. MR. BANMAN: Another question, Mr. Speaker.

Would the Minister confirm that the milk prices in Manitoba are the lowest in Canada ? MR. USKIW: I am not sure whether I can answer -- Well Pm sure I can' t answer yes or no on that question because in each province you have a different way of marketing of milk and you have price differentials between various uses of milk. In Manitoba we have changed the system now to the point where milk producers are being paid on the basis of quality rather than its end use, so where some provinces may have four or five different prices, we have two prices in this province, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day.

The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, my question I suppose would be to the House Leader or to the Minister responsible to communications, and I apologize for not having been here when the statement on broadcasting was tabled, but the question was asked on Friday, I believe. Can the Minister indicate, because of some of the very important recommendations, well I can see beneficial recommendations in this report, will we have an opportunity to debate it or discuss it in committee or through the Minister's estimates.

Is there any possibility that we' ll have an opportunity to explore this in our legislative work this session ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, there will be some opportunity. The honourable member if he examines the nature of debating provisions can see that there is ; I couldn' t guarantee the type. The Minister's Es timates are coming up later but we are rapidly nearing the 90 hours. But if it's not in the Estimates there are other courses open to honourable friends.

3436 May 13., 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might impose on the Minister responsible for Communications. In view of the fact that presumably this report will be presented to the Canadian Radio Television Commission hearings in Winnipeg tomorrow, would the Minister consent to giving members a briefing, for those who are interested in the su bject, giving us a briefing of the Government of Manitoba' s position sometime in the next couple of days, perhaps even at our own time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Af fairs. MR. TURNBULL: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I'd be quite happy to meet with the Leader of the Liberal Party and anyone who is interested in this topic. I should be in the House but we could do it this afternoon after my press conference. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable House Leader. SUPPLEMENTARY

(2) MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, before we get to second readings, the Honourable Minister of Finance has a message. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I have a messa ge from His Honour the Lieuten ant Governor. MR. SPEAKER: The Lieut enant-Governor transmits to the Legislative Asse mbly of Manitoba estimates of further sums required for the services of the Province for the fiscal year ending March 31 , 1975 and recommends these Estimates to the Legislative Asse mbly. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Mines that the said message together with the Estimates accompanying the same be referred to the Committee of Supply. MOTION presented. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I'm just wondering whether it would be in order for me to make a brief comment as to the nature of the Estimates that are being distributed now. MR. SPEAKER: Leave ? (Agreed) MR. CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, it will just be a moment. There are three items, all of which, I'm sure will not come as any surprise to members.

The first is an item of $1. 9 million under Tourism, which is the amount es timated to take over the administration and the operation of Assi niboine Park. It has been announced that agreement has been reached between the Province and the City of Winnipeg that the Ass iniboine Park will be operated as a provincial park and the provision of 1. 9 million is for that purpose. The second one is self-explanatory in that it' s $5 million for flood control emergency ex penditures. It is of course an estimate but I don't think it will exceed that amount. I think that this will be adequate. And thirdly, Mr.

Speaker, again is the item that was announced in regard to the extension of the property tax credit plan by an increase of $50 in the minimum, and in the maximum, pro viding for a contribution by way of rebate of property tax credits of a minimum of $150 and a maximum of $250, or the total of the property tax bill, whichever would be the lesser. And that item is $8 million which has previously been announced to honourable members.

So that the total of the three items will now form part of the estimates, and I believe that the House Leader is prepared to co-operate with members if they wish to have these items brought in ahead of any of the other departments to ensure the opportunity for a debate on these items during the estimates review and otherwise then of course they would just be with all the other estimates to be dealt with at the end of the 90 hours. I unders tand the House Leader is prepared to consider with members opposite, with the leaders, the arrangement as to when these items can be dealt with. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

QUESTION put. MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Lead er .

May 13, 1974 3437 SECOND READING - GOVERNMENT BILLS - BILL NO. 46 MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, would you call Bill No. 46, followed by the 9ther bills on second reading. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 46. The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. SHAFRANSKY: Mr. Speaker, I adjourned the debate on behalf of the First Minister. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable First Minister shall be clos ing debate on Bill No. 46. Agreed ? The Honourable First Minister. --(Interjection) --Oh, the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLO YD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge) : Thank you, Mr. S peaker.

I thank the indulgence of the First Minister in allowing me to say a few words on this bill. I was not present in the House in the last few days of last week and therefore didn't have the opportunity at that time and I wouldn't want to let this particular bill pass without having a chance to make some comment about what I think is one of the more important pieces of legislation that have been introduced in this Hous e in this Sess ion and one which perhaps is mor e important by what it doesn't do than by what it does.

I' d like to begin first by commenting upon the, what I thought was a highly unusual pre sentation by the First Minister when he introduced Bill 46; unusual to the extent that it seemed to indicate in a very brief statement that he made that in the first two and a half years, or close to three years of operation of the very complicated and very difficult operation of the new City of Winnipeg structur e, that the assess ment, by himself at least, as Minister of Urban Affairs, and I presume by his colleagues, was that the only real major amendment that was required to make the system function in a proper and good way was to re-establish the direct election of a mayor along with the proposal to undertake by Cabinet the decision on boundary changes and the arrangement of community committee arrangements, along with the technical amendments that he talked about that were proposed by the City of Winnipeg.

I thought that was unusual because the City of Winnipeg and Bill 36 was a recation of the Province of Manitoba. It was obviously a very innovative and very forward innovation at that time. I would have thought that one of the primary concerns of the Minister of Urban Affairs and the government would be to ensure that in the shakedown period of that new vehicle, as other ministers have referred to it, there would have been a very careful assess ment of how it worked.

That there would have been a very cautious and very detailed appraisal of which parts were fun ctioning according to the objectives and which weren't, and that there would be a continually important application of the required changes that may be necessary to ensur e that those parts of the machinery that they introduced which may not have been fun ctioning according to the plan, could be repaired or replaced.

So I can only assume from the brevity of the First Minister's introduction that by lack of any other descr iption, or lack of any other appraisal, that only this part of the bill that he saw was wrong and the rest of it was fine. And this particular point of view was reinforced !believe by listening as I did to the remarks of the other members of his government who spoke on the bill and by reading the remarks I think quite carefully, all seem to indicate that according to their appraisal, whatever it may have been, basically it was all right, and that once we got by this change it would be okay.

That once we had a direct election of the mayor then that seemed to be putting things in their proper balance and we could then put Bill 36 back on the shelf and allow the City of Winnipeg to roll on. That I assume, or I can only assume by what has been said so far, has been the position taken by the government in relation to the City of Winnipeg Act. And yet one of the disturbing aspects of which I think emerged in the debate that we have listened to so far is that many mem bers of this House are not convinced that that is so. That the Member from St. Boniface and the Member from St.

James, both of whom have had experience as councillors, commented I think in fairly extens ive and detailed form about their concerns about the malfunctioning or mis fu nctioning of the system; that there were some serious problems with it and that those prob lems should be corrected. And I don't think much heed was given to their words when they were presented.

The Leader of the Opposition made some very strong assertions, and I would say they are only assertions, about the lack of application and policy and program in the City of Winnipeg, and again all the reply that I was able to note was from the Minister of Health and Social Development, who said again, "Lookit, the thing is fine. " You know, it's like the old story about the dog walking on its hind legs. You don't comment on how badly it's doing; the fact that it's walking at all seems to be appropriate response.

3438 May 13, 1974 BILL 46 (MR. AXWORTHY cont'

d) But what I find particularly worrisome about that is it does indicate that there has been a lack of evidence, a lack of information, a lack of intelligence if you like, about what is happen ing in the City of Winnipeg. How well is it working? Becaus e we have received nothing from members of the government who are responsible for that bill, to indicate that they have done an appraisal. We have not received from them any evidence to say that the objectives that were set out in the White Paper in 1970 are in fact being achieved.

There were assertions; the Minister of Mines and Resources said in a kind of ipso facto argument, "we introduced Bill 36 to end fragmentation. The fragmentation has ended. Therefore the problem is solved. " What he didn't say is that is simply a method that he was proposing. Whether in fact the initial appraisal of what the causes of the problems of the City of Winnipeg in 19 70 were right has obviously not been done, because they are assu ming that because of their first judgment as to what the problems were have now been corrected and that Bill 36, that there mustn't be any problems at all.

Which I think is a serious mistake in logic, if we sort of went back to some basic formulas of logic. So I'm concerned about it and why I would want to speak this afternoon is to pose some questions to the First Minister responsible for Urban Affairs about what kind of appraisal has been made and to what degree can we expect some evidence, perhaps in his concluding remarks, to convince us or demonstrate to us that in fact all is right with the world and the City of Winnipeg in fact has no problems with it, other than the one that he wants to correct, and that is the direct election of the mayor.

If that is not the case, if in fact there are some problems, then I can only assnme that the Minister is waiting for a fu ture date to make the correction. I believe that there is some talk about providing a review in 1975. And in this case I could again only express my concern because I don't believe that we should wait that long. If there are serious problems with it, by 1975 those problems will become entrenched and become part of the tradition almost of city government; they would become part of the natural operation of the system and be much more diff icult to correct.

So I can only assnme again that the Minister, being a responsible man and prepared to act at problems when he sees them, can only again go back to the original position that there are no problems. If that's the case then I would have to voice my very strong dis agreement with the Minister, because I think there is increasing evidence that there are ser ious difficulties with the operation of the City of Winnipeg Act and that those serious difficulties are in fact providing a number of ser ious problems faced by citizens of the city. I would like to go back, if I may, Mr.

Speaker, to the original objectives that were set forward in the White Paper and since elaborated upon by the Minister of Finance when he was introducing the bill, about the reason for the bill, and provide the First Minister with some evidence to show that in fact those objectives are not being achieved and some of the reasons for it. I believe in the White Paper they set forward four objectives.

The first one is to achieve a degree of financial equity between what was in the 14 municipal juris dictions that were amal gamated into the one city and provide some balance in the economic position of one citizen to the other so there wouldn't be some advantage of one citizen living in one part of Winnipeg against the other. I would say on balance according to the research that we have been able to conduct, that generally that has come close to being achieved, by the very nature of providing a common mill rate, with the exception of the school mill rate, that ther e has been a degree of financial equity.

That does not mean however, in any respect, that the financial problems of the city have been solved and that I think it is a serious mistake, and a misdemeanor in fact, to assnme that some how by equalizing the fiscal base that now the fiscal problems of the city no longer have to be approached, and that there no longer has to be some serious ex amination of the revenue posi tion of the city, and to what degree the ability of the city to operate not only the traditional fun ctions of city government but the newer fun ctions of city government can be supported by the property tax base along with a continuing strategy of providing conditional grants or taking over services .

Because I don't think, as far as we can see, that the Minister or this government has really yet ser iously faced the question of what does that form of financial inferiority or that form of financial subservience create in a city of a half a million people. What it simply means is that it has to kind of cut its sail to match the cloth that its given, which means it begins to

May 13, 1974 BILL 46 3439 (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) . . . . . retrain itself very seriously in many of the important kinds of programs which the government itself indicated they would like to see the city undertake in its White Paper. That it would like to have seen the city make a serious attack on problems of urban poverty, and problems of inner city development. But you can't do that if you don't have money. It has struck me as exceedingly strange why this government has been so reluctant to pro vide for some form of growth revenue for the city.

I would refer particularly to the proposal made in the Ontario budget of this year. That they indicated that the Ontario government is now prepared to begin meeting some of the problems of its municipalities by passing on its own growth revenue annually over bases, and asking the federal government to do the same.

Now that to my mind is a form of provincial leadership, and it saddens me that our own province, wouldn 't have undertaken the same kind of leadership to try to reassert a much more us eful and comprehensive fiscal base for the City of Winnipeg so that it would be able to undertake the very things that a Provincial Government in 1970 said it wanted the city to under take. But you can't expect them to do it when you are scrapping around to find resources. The same thing is true in the capital market field, where again there is an increasing burden being put upon the cities to provide major public works.

It goes back I think to a theory, I believe again the Minister of Mines and Resources and his comments on this bill talked about government as it used to be. I keep finding that the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources is a very conservative man in many respects. He has been called a radical I think by others throughout the province. I find him to be a very conservative man, conservative sort of on the basis of his own theory, that if that theory is outdated he holds to it, and the fact that he has an appreciation and sense of local government which I think is sadly outdated.

Because he is looking at government as it used to be in its caretaker form, turning your lights on, making the snows cleared up, making sure that the police forces are out on the streets and so on, without ever looking at what I suppose could be looked upon as the increased entrepreneurial activities of the city, which must be taken in terms of development, of beginning to create sort of an urban environment which has a sense of livability and quality and harmony to it; of beginning to engage itself seriously in many of the social problems of the urban system which go far beyond the caretaker style of government as he described it.

But they can't do it if they don't have the means, and they must look to the senior government who has the responsibility to either give them the means or to make very clear at least where they stand on the situation, rather than these kind of ad hoc negotiations. You know, it gets to be kind of curious as members of this House walk in, sort of daily in to attend sessi ons, to watch sort of groups of councillors scurry ing to and fro from the Premier's office, you know, sort of doing their kind of genufl ection asking for a few more sort of shekels to pay the bills next month.

That's the meaning for the city councillors and it's the meaning for the City of Winnipeg. And simply by sort of what we can say then is that the fiscal problems of the City of Winnipeg have not been answered and I think it is unfortunate and it does denote that there is a serious problem that has not yet been addressed by this government.

Let me then point to a second objective that was put forward by the government, was the, and I'm quoting, "The need to eliminate conflict and stalemates then existing between the separate munic ipalities in order to expedite better planning, better development, to provide a better industr ial strategy for economic growth, to eliminate that kind of problems that we used to see between Metro and the city where they were sort of sawing off at one another and you couldn 't get any agreements on where to put a building or where to develop an industrial park or where to put a transportation system.

" So the answer that was proposed in Bill 36 was we amalgamate and we eliminate the stalemate and conflict somehow by eliminating the municipali ties. Well again I would point out, Mr. Speaker, that you don't eliminate conflict simply by changing a structure, that all that would simply happen is the conflicts that existed before were simply transformed from 14 separate arenas into one arena, but the basic conflicts still exist and need to be worked out.

I think the proof of that again is that the City of Winnipeg is no more succes sful today than it was four years ago in providing for effective planning and development of this city. It is still being done on an ad hoc basis, and in fact if you really want to look at the record, the evidence, we are in far more serious trouble now than we were four years ago. That there is virtually no land left for industrial parks in the City of Winnipeg, and you begin to go back and

3440 May 13, 1973 BILL 46 (MR. AXWO RTHY cont'd) ..... ask the question why; you say well howcould that be because we were told that this reform was going to change that, and you find out that when you talk to people who are interested in acquiring industrial property that they must go through 17 or 18 kind of decision desks or groups or agencies, organizations within city government. So what really happened is that the fragmentation was not really eliminated, it was just transferred and we don't have any better industrial development now then we had then.

So as a resu lt the city which must develop an industrial strategy in order to properly provide for the sustenance of its citizens is be ing hampered and limited. In fact there's an interesting--I was talking to a city official who will go nameless, who said they've developed a new theory at City Hall, it's called the vacation theory of how not to get things done. There's about 18 different guys left to make decisions, this guy goes on a vacation for three weeks and the proposal sits on his desk, and just as he gets back the next guy goes on vacation at the next desk, which means you can really hold things up.

But look at the results. It is that we are building far less housing now than we need to build in order to meet demand. We are not developing the kind of industrial sites that are required in order to meet demand. That we are still in a downtown area sort of unabl e to provide for a rational, effective downtown plan until we get sort of clobbered on things like Trizec, where we simply sort of sell out, because again there is no ability to properly bring the full powers of city government to bear on an effective way of providing control and regulation and direction in downtown.

And that's not corrected in this Act and yet city officials and politicians have said, lookit, there are many things that we need to do in order to br ing that about and there may be some people on council who don't want to bring that about and are not prepared to debate to what degree there are property interests dominating or not dominating in City Council. But I am saying that at the present moment the basic fun ction of eliminating fragmentation has not been eliminated, in fact probably has grown somewhat worse.

And I don't place the full onus of responsibility on the Provincial Government although it does share some of that responsibility. Obviously there are conflicts within council that need to be resolved. But there is one major area where that responsibility must be borne, and that comes down to probably the central fun ction of government, and that's its capacity to make executive decisions , its ability to decide things and to decide them in as open and as rational a way possible.

Now I would sort of refer again the Minister to some research that was done as to- interviews that were done with all 50 councillors, with members of the media covering the council, with the public at large and with administrators and the Provincial Government itself, and they said, what is the major problem facing the City of Winnipeg ? The answer is - lack of effective executive decis ion-making.

Because when this government changed the rules in Bill 36 to make a direct election of the mayor they made for a hybrid system, they took away the mechanism that would have enabled the executive powers within the city government to require a majority control to enable it to make decisions, when the theory of Bill 36 and the White Paper was in fact a form of parliamentary system. What they did when they changed to the direct election of the mayor was in fact change it to a kind of half form of congressional presidential system but without any of the powers.

So if you're going to do it one way then do it the right way, don't take half measures. Because if you're going to make for direct election of the mayor then you are making him a chief executive. If you are making him a chief executive give him some power so he can act like a chief executive; give him the power to make the budgets; give him the power of veto over bylaws ; give him the power of appointment over civil servants in the civic structure.

In other words , if you are going to adopt that system then carry out the logic of the original design, but don't create sort of a half measure system which all it ends up is creating in a sense - I would hate to use the word eunuch in relation to our present mayor - but in fact the office has no virtual powers to it, because you have taken those away from--you took away what is the essential value of a parliamentary system as the Premier well knows, that he can exer cise sort of executive decis ion because he knows that to stay in power he can command a major ity and that's the way our parliamentary system works .

You don't have to set those out because the informal arrangements make it work that way, that there is a way of linking a cohesive majority. But when you've taken that requirem ent away then you must replace it with something else, and that was not replaced under Bill 36, nor is it replaced under Bill 46. So with this most serious weakness faced by the City of Winnipeg Act, the most ser ious liability enabling it to undertake effective executive decision-making is not being corrected in

May 13, 1974 3441 BILL 46 (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ..... any way, wit or form. In fact it may even be heightened or exacerbated by the proposals in Bill 46 which indicated, and although the Minister didn't say so, if you read between the lines, of saying, well lookit, it's unfo rtunate that we had to make for this direct election of the mayor and we regret it, so what we'll hopefully do is that the deputy mayor will really take over those powers and the mayor can become a ceremonial figure, he can do the things he wants to do and the deputy mayor can then become in fact the de facto chief executive.

Well if that's the case then you're headed for trouble because no system of govern ment can stand two chief executives. There is another problem associated with that which I would also like to raise, and that is once you eviscerated the capacity and power of a political execut ive system that was created under Bill 36, the Executive Policy Committee and the Mayor, once that was eviscerated then you left in place a very potent and powerful executive agency called the Board of Commiss ioners. They were not eviscerated, their power is still retained.

So what in fact has happened, and again I would refer to research that was undertaken over the past two years of the transition state, that again if you ask both the administrators and the councillors and those observing at close range what is another basic problem in the working of the City of Winnipeg Act, again the conclusion is in the stalemate and conflict between the Board of Commiss ioners and executive political people. Because again there is no way of providing some command over that.

It would be almost as if the Premier of this province was faced daily by a board of deputy ministers who come together daily to make decisions and you didn't have any powers sort of to appoint them or to control them or to countermand them. And that would be a very interesting system if the appointed civil servants in a sense were on equal par with the Premier of this province. And the analogy is not too far-fetch

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-124
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 124.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
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