ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature .. .... Leglslatlve Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Publlahed under the Mhorltyot The Honourable D. Jame• Welding ,,,..., VOL. XXXI No. 37A - 10:00 a.m., THURSDAY, 31 MARCH, 1983. Prmled by Ille Office of Ille Oue«rs ,.,.,_, PrOtfince ot M-oba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.A. {Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry ·T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St .

Vital Party NOP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP IND NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP PC NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP PC PC NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP PC PC PC PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC NOP NOP NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP NOP NOP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 31 March, 1983. Time - 10:00 a.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, by leave, I have two reports to table. The Fifth Annual Report of the Manitoba Municipal Employees Benefit Fund for the year ended December 31, 1981. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The Honourable Member for Virden on a point of order. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker, when you called the Tabling of Reports by Standing and Special Committees, I believe a member of the Chamber was standing. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Mr. Speaker, I believe you overlooked my standing. Perhaps we could revert to Presenting Reports by Standing Committees, by leave. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and ask leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Member for The Pas, that the report of the Committee be accepted. MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERI AL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Cont'd MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. A. ADAM: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the second report I wish to table is the Actuarial Report on the Group Insurance Plan part of the Benefits Program for Employees of Participating Municipalities in Manitoba as at January 1, 1980. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I have a statement to make but I wish to inform the House that it is in the form of a letter. It's a letter that I wrote to Ms. Begin, I would ask leave to accept it. (Agreed) "Dear Madame Begin: I am writing you in regard to your comments made in the House of Commons - Tuesday, March 29th, in response to Alberta's proposal to increase charges to patients in hospitals.

I refer in particular to your statement indicating that the New Canada Health Act would enable you to withhold transfer payments to provinces that did not comply with the basic conditions of the Hospital/Medicare Program. "While Manitoba can agree with the sentiments you have expressed, I would suggest that there would be much more logic and support for your position if, indeed, the Federal Government were funding 50% of the operating costs of these programs as it did under the old cost-shared program.

Under the present program, however, with block funding and considering that Ottawa's share of the cost reduces as time goes on, I believe the logic of your argument is lacking. "As indicated in my most recent letter to you, we would also welcome the addition of mental health within the definition of "insured health services" on the understanding of course that the Federal Government shares the cost of these programs with the provinces on a 50-50 basis.

"In summa ry, therefore, I believe the Manitoba Government would be supportive of the position you are currently taking in attempting to preserve the basic principles of medicare and hospitalization on the understanding that the Federal Government would return to a cost-sharing formula. "I look forward to discussing these issues with you further when we next meet." Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of members of our party I would like to thank the Minister for making known his correspondence on this subj�ct with the Federal Minister.

I don't, on the surface, see anything new in the comm unicatio n that the Mini ster has presented to the House, or tabled in the House. It's a reassertion of a commitment to universal medicare, universal hospitalization, to which our party and our government demonstrably subscribed, and continues to subscribe. I don't necessarily agree with the Minister and he knows that.

In respect to the 50-50 cost-sharing formula, I think block funding can work very well provided there is communication and co-operation, which sadly has been lacking to a significant degree under the current Federal Government and under the current Minister of National Health and Welfare. However, that debate can be left for another form in another arena, Sir, I thank the Minister for making 1257

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 his correspondence known. We certainly would support the inclusion of mental health services under the insured health services category. That effort has been pursued for some considerable time by governments of both stripes, of all stripes, in the Province of Manitoba and we would continue to support initiatives in that direction.

I do, as I say, think, however, that even insured mental health services could be included under the block funding umbrella provided block funding is administered through a co-operative approach to health care, through a respect for provincial authority and jurisdiction in the health care field and through much better federal communication with the provinces. MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills .. ORAL QUESTIONS Meeting with Consul General of the United States MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, in the absence of the First Minister, I would ask the Acting First Minister if he or she can confirm that the Consul General of the United States, Mrs. Lillian Mullin, was asked to a meeting in the Premier's office by the Premier, on Friday last, to discuss the participation of members of the Executive Council in a demonstration which took place the previous Wednesday in front of the American Consulate. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Yes, Mr. Speaker, such a meeting did occur. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, can the Acting First Minister advise the House of the substance of the conversation that took place between the First Minister - I presume herself - and the Consul General of the United States at that meeting? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, we discussed the incident and I think communicated a position that was identical to the one we had expressed in the House. HON. S. LYON: Can the Acting First Minister confirm, Mr.

Speaker, that neither on that occasion nor on the previous occasion when a letter was written to the Consul General, the government has at no time apologized for the participation of government members in that unfortunate incident in front of the Consulate? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, we did not feel that an apology was appropriate. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Economic Development, in her own capacity, advise the House of the substance of the remarks that she addressed to the demonstration on the evening of Wednesday last, that is a week ago Wednesday, at the U. S.

Consulate, when apparently she was there speaking on behalf of the NOP Caucus and the NOP Government. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to dissociate ourselves once again from the burning of a flag, which was not central to the organization, unknown to the organizers, and certainly not something that I, or any of my colleagues, would condone in any circumstance. Mr. Speaker, the substance of what I said was that I was there to speak in a mood of great sadness.

Sadness, because we were hearing reports from Latin America, reports that were very difficult to confirm because of a news blackout, but which seemed to indicate, and there seemed to be enough similarity of reports coming out of the area to show that there was an incursion into the country of Nicaragua - an intervention, in our mind - within the boundary of a country and an interference in its right to self-determine. Mr.

Speaker, I spoke with some anger because I felt that throughout Latin America, the countries that were struggling against enormous odds to improve the economic and security conditions of their people were having not only the natural difficulties of poverty and illiteracy and the difficulties of struggle to contend with, but they were having intervention by direct or indirect military and economic aid or intervention. Mr. Speaker, I called on the United States in behalf of the human rights of people in Nicaragua to withdraw their support of the intervening forces. That was the text of my comments, Mr. Speaker.

HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, we thank the Minister of Economic Development for the recollection of remarks that she made on that occasion. If those remarks are in printed form or note form would she, Sir, mind filing them in the House, so that we may have them? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, due to my current handicap of my right hand, I am not able to write notes in a readable form. In that instance, I spoke impromptu. I might add that I followed comments by a representative from the Federation of Labour and comments by Dr. Carl Ridd.

I was very moved by the comments given by both speakers, particularly those of Carl Ridd who, as a United Church Minister, Professor of English at the University of Winnipeg, is known and respected, Mr. Speaker, as a thoughtful, concerned citizen, a person, who in his lifetime, I think has moved towards realizing that there are some injustices in the world that he must speak out on; and he, too, had voiced concern that the struggles going on in Latin America under a great variety of political and economic systems were being judged very simplistical ly, Mr. Speak er, and that intervention was being justified.

I was moved by his comments and felt a great alliance with his sentiments, Mr. Speaker. I think the first day the issue came up the opposition did say that they had a tape of the comments made, so they no doubt already have access to the words which I spoke. 1258

Thursday, 31 March , 1983 Motor Coach Industries - layoffs MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Labour. Last week, I had asked her about the layoffs of some 532 employees at Motor Coach Industries, and she indicated she had received notice on February 15th and had taken no action. My question to her is, has she received notices of other layoffs and, if so, would she name the employers and how many employees are involved? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. 1111. DOLIN: Mr.

Speaker, it is the work of my department to be notified and to be aware of impending layoffs, in fact, we have legislation that has been in effect for some time, certainl y, during the last administration, as well, to that effect. I don't think the honourable member is suggesting that when I hear from an employer that there is a possibility of impending layoff, and that employer shares with me in confidence some of the things that he or she is doing to attempt to avert those layoffs, that that be made public knowledge.

I'm sure they respect the privacy and the confidentiality of an employer, as well as the rights of employees. Early retirement program benefits MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a few weeks ago I asked the Minister whether she could give to this House any information with respect to the proposal in the Budget whereby eligible civil servants would be offered, for a three-month period, advantages of a special set of early retirement program benefits. Can she give the House any information with respect to those benefits which the government intends to offer to senior civil servants? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I would be happy to share that information with you and with honourable members here present, and I must apologize for not being available to make such information known earlier this week. As you are aware, I was away from the House for a couple of days. The information on early retirement has gone out to the appropriate people, to civil servants, of course, in their paycheques this week.

The basic premises upon this is based - and we will be introducing the legislation very shortly, a severance supplement act, which will give us the legislation for this move - but the basic premises are three: The first is the elimination of the early retirement penalty, that is, the 1.5 percent per year which is applicable to retirements that occur between ages 55 and 60. That is being lifted for the 4 months between March 1st until the end of June.

The second improvement is that of the pension formula itself; the calculation of the average salary will be on the best 6 of the last 12 years, as opposed to the best 7, which it is in legislation right now. The qualifying service is the third area that we have put a window on, and that is that employees who are over age 55 and who have 2 years of service; as opposed to the 10 years required now for vesting; those people will be eligible for this retirement.

The other item that I can tell you about is that all retirements will be calculated on the basis of the salary that people would be earning June 18th, which is when the old second year of the renegotiated MGEA contract come into play. So they will have their retirement benefits calculated on the basis of that June 18th date. There have been letters sent out to all staff of the Civil Service, Crown agencies, boards, commissions and so on, outlining the basis of the plan.

There is also a program being set up for conducting information seminars, retirement planning seminars and individual counseling for all interested employees and their spouses in major cities throughout Manitoba, not just here in Winnipeg. The announcement of these dates and locations, of course, will be placed on bulletin boards and printed in appropriate newsletters and so on. Also, letters for all of those employees who are possibly eligible are being sent, that give them a specific calculation of their own personal potential benefits under the window plan.

There are approximately 1, 900 of these elegible civil servants, and 1, 100 employees of other agencies and boards and so on, for a total of approximately 3, 000 employees who could be eligible for early retirement. The estimates run between 300 and 500 who will take advantage of this. Kimberly-Clark - layoffs MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, could the Minister confirm that Kimberly-Clark have made an announcement, yesterday or today, with respect to the layoff of a number of employees, how many employees are affected by that announcement and what action has the Minister taken? HON. M. DOLIN: Mr.

Speaker, we have been dealing with the Kimberly-Clark situation for some time and I would ask that those questions be directed to my colleague, the Minister of Economic Development, who is overseeing that program. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH: We have been worl<ing on the Kimberly-Clark plant closure for some thne, as the Minister of La.bour and Employment Services has said. The Winnipeg plant was employing 132 people and we have known for some time that they intended to close down their operation here.

They are intending to retain their distributio n in Win nipeg, but they will be contracting it out. Mr. Speaker, senior officials from my department have met with the Kimberly-Clark management in both Toronto and Winnipeg to see if there was any way, ideally, to prevent the closure; second best, to extend the date; third, to see whether there might be alternate products which could be produced here, some way of giving work to the employees in some form or other. We have a highly-qualified consultant who has been working in a very short time frame to identify options if, in fact, some could be found. 1259

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 We find the probability of a viable alternative in the short run remains low. Kimberly-Clark have listed the building For Sale but aren't selling their equipment. We have found out from the consultant that the removal of the equipment will not really interfere with the options that he has identified. We've had response from two potential investors and we're further exploring their willingness to come to the Winnipeg location. We did, in fact, write to all the companies that we could identify who were in a similar field and who might be willing to move in and pick up the slack.

I regret that we don't have any alternative at the present time, but I think we're doing whatever is feasible, given the circumstances. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Economic Development advise the House how many employ-ees have lost, or are losing, their jobs as a result of this closing? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I think I said at the beginning that the plant has employed 132 workers. Manitoba Horse Racing Commission MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism.

Could she advise the House whether she approved job qualifications, which were tailor-made to match those of an American, Mr. David Freeman, hired by the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission, which have been described as not a bona tide offer by the Employment and Immigration Department; did she approve of those job qualifications which were apparently tailor-made to suit the American who was hired over 250 Canadian applicants? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, those activities are under the direct responsibility of the Commission and they do not bring all those items to me.

They will, of course, observe the federal ruling. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the members of the Horse Racing Commission and the Chairman, in particular, have botched their jobs since the day the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism appointed them to do that job, is she prepared to ask that board to resign, and the chairman of that board to resign, and appoint some people who are suitable to carrying out that function? HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, I would be the first person in the world to admit that in all the activities of any board or commission there can be some weakness, or less than ideal decision-making. But I ask the House to put the activities of the Horse Racing Commission in perspective.

We inherited a commission which was acting primarily with a single person, without regular meetings; there were no public advertisements when people were appointed to these different tasks; there was an approval of an operation at the track where there was not regular reporting, where we had great difficulty getting financial information, where the track just about collapsed and disappeared from the economic and recreational life of this city, Mr. Speaker.

The load, the responsibility that was on that commission during the past year has to be seen to be believed, and I know better than anyone here the hours and hours of negotiation and work for a pittance, Mr. Speaker, that that commission has undertaken to build the track, to keep it in a healthy state and to retain it for the Province of Manitoba. Their job has not been perfect but, Mr. Speaker, their accomplishments weigh enormously high when looked at in the total perspective. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, does the Minister approve the work of her commission - which she appointed - in developing a job description which includes just about everything Mr. Freeman has done in the racing business and excludes 250 Canadian applicants? HON. M. SMITH: Weil, Mr. Speaker, I disagree with that evaluation, but I think the responsibility for working this situation through is with the commission, and I have given my undertaking that the commission will certainly follow the federal ruling, whether they agree with it or not. Update on flooding MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Natural Resources.

In view of the fact that 1979 was a spring something like this, which followed upon a record flood in the Province of Manitoba; in view of the fact that last fall we had probably one of the record numbers of inches of rainfall in October and the ground froze up very wet, and the ability of the ground to absorb any of the spring runoff is very limited; in view of the fact that we're now at the first of April and have had a series of cloudy days over the past month with very little melting and probably, within the next few days, warmer weather; in view of the fact that in some of the areas of the Souris River Valley, through a personal viewing of it in the last few days, that it appears as if what he predicted last week is already taking place, some 10 percent of that valley is now flooded, will he give this House an immediate update on Monday as to the possibilities of flooding in Manitoba and a current update with the situation as it is with weekend rainfall and snow that is being predicted?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure all honourable members are concerned about the threat of flood. The earlier report that I indicated in the House was a favourable one but, as is always the case, there are certain areas of the province that are subject to some degree of flooding almost every year. I won't agree with all of the "in view of the facts" that the honourable member indicated because I don't know whether they are facts. However, as the report indicated, Mr.

Speaker, there has been a build up of soil moisture, particularly last fall, and significant weather changes during this critical period can affect the degree of 1260

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 flooding that we can experience in various parts of the province; and it is true that the department is concerned that we monitor these situations very closely. Certainly, I'll be happy to give an update on Monday as to the areas that the department indicates may be subject to some degree of flooding. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the Minister for his response and will look forward to Monday for a cornplet update on not only the Souris River but the Red River and Assiniboine River as well, because it is a major issue, particularly in light of some of the reporting that we'd received prior to the 1979 flood that the situation did change. Mr. Speaker, there seems to be a problem with the members of the government being thanked for providing information by members of the opposition. Four-year assessment on farmers Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance.

In view of the fact that the Federal Government, the Internal Revenue Department, are now going back and making a four-year assessment on farmers who are working off the farm to supplement their incomes are now being, or are subject to, an

interpretation by the Internal Revenue Department which could cost them several thousands of dollars, will the Minister of Finance make representation to the Federal Minister responsible for the Internal Revenue Department, asking them not to impose past taxes or a change in the

interpretation which would cost thousands of dollars to farmers who are having an extremely difficult time at this particular time in their livelihoods? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If the honourable member could provide me with the full details of the cases that have been brought to his attention, I'd be glad to take a look at them and respond. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, rather than me give him the full details, I could provide him with one specific one that I have in my constituency, which is a broader issue.

The Minister should be aware of the fact that in Ottawa last week it was raised in the House of Commons and asked, and his department possibly, if they are available to serve the people of Manitoba, could contact the Federal Minister responsible for this particular jurisdiction and have a report from them as to the current

interpretation of The Federal Income Tax Act, so that in tact it could be acted upon more quickly than I could get that information to him. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, just further to the question that was posed by the Member for Arthur, I should advise him that we have made, and I, personally, have made representations to the Federal Government dealing with the questions of the calculation of expenditures and/or capital cost reductions in terms of where farmers work off the farm and those expenses not being accepted by Revenue Canada.

We've made certain proposals and, in fact, have proposed that this issue be discussed at the Ministers' Meeting as well, because it is a problem that is emerging and has been emerging for people who want to enter agriculture thro•.Jgh a phase-in period. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Agriculture provide the House with copies of his correspondence to the Federal Government, as well as replies that he has received or will be receiving on this particular issue? And as well, Mr. Speaker, whose side is the Minister of Agriculture on, the Federal Government's or the farmers of Manitoba? HON. B.

URUSKI: Those kinds of discussions are ongoing. I have had representations made from constituents the same way as the Honourable Member for Arthur has made, and we have put those cases forward; some of which I have put through members of parliament through the same norms as he has. I have also made representations to the Federal Minister of Agriculture and to the Minister of National Revenue. Mr. Speaker, the sarcasm of the Honourable Member for Arthur needs not to be answered. Careerstart Program MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the Minister of Labour, and this is dealing with information that I received earlier this week about the Careerstart Program. I was wondering if the Minister would consider extending the deadline of April 15th for applications, in view of the fact that most of the people in Manitoba have not received that information yet and the fact that this corning weekend the post offices in Manitoba will be closed Friday, Saturday and Monday. The timetable seems very, very tight for any application for a person to duly consider the whole impact of the program.

Would the Minister consider extending the deadline? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, I syrnpatt.•ze with the concern expressed by the honourable rnernoer across the way and I will take that under consideration. Our problem, of course, is our desire to get young people to work early in May since they will be out of school. So I will take that under consideration, given the fact that it is a holiday weekend and postal services may be delayed.

The member may not know that there is a later date for northern applications, of course, because we are aware that the mail service is not all that it could be in the North. So we will take that under consideration, and if there is a change, I will bring that information back to the House. MR. H. GRAHAM: A further supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that I represent a constituency that has a large number of the farming community who do farm along the Saskatchewan 1261

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 border, and in view of the fact that the regulations stipulate that a farmer must have his entire farm operation within the Province of Manitoba, would the Minister give special consideration to those farmers who live in Manitoba, have the majority of their farm in the province, and maybe have an odd quarter

section across the boundary in Saskatchewan. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, if the member would have those people indicate to me specifically the problems that he is outlining, or if he could do so himself, those particular farmers and their desire to hire people and for what purpose, and so on, so that we could see if they actually did fit within the program itself, I'd take a look at it, yes. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I find that rather strange, coming from a Minister who's only allowing people two weeks to make their application, and we know the problems we have with mail these days.

If I have to refer these people directly to the Minister, the deadline of April 15th will be long gone and their chances are gone. I'm asking the Minister now if she would consider the regulations that she has herself imposed, to consider the case of farmers who are living on the Saskatchewan border, and I presume on the American border as well, where they may have the majority of their farm in Manitoba and maybe a small portion of their land across the boundary. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, I think I just answered that question and the other one implied in it.

I said I would take a look at the April 15th deadline in particular cases. I said if the member could provide me with information on particular farmers who are hard pressed to hire young people and are being excluded by the regulations of the program, I would like to see that specific information. If the member can provide that for me, then I'd be happy to take a look at it. Buy and Renovate Program MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just rise to respond to a couple of questions that were asked of me by the Member for St.

Norbert on Monday with respect to the Buy and Renovate Program. First of all, with respect to the amount of money that has flowed, I would like to correct something that appeared that I said on Monday with respect to the number of applications. I was going from a press report which had indicated 45. The actual number is 35 applications have been approved for a total of $1.1 million in commitment. There are an additional 81 applications in process. Approximately 10 to 15 percent of that money has flowed.

There are three or four individuals who have followed through on the process, who are in their renovated homes in the inner city area. As members will recognize, because the payments are made on a progress basis, the flow of funds of course will increase as the months proceed. We initially set a target of 100 units renovated. I don't think we will have any difficulty meeting that number. I suppose by that measure it is certainly going to be a success. As well, the member asked a question about when the guidelines were established. Mr.

Speaker, I have a booklet that was prepared for a meeting with realtors that staff had in November. This is a very detailed set of guidelines, information for realtors on the program and all of its aspects. It was available in November and realtors were working on that basis. Certainly information on the Buy and Renovate Program was available and guidelines were established. Some of the problems that we've encountered have been specifically because it is very complex and individuals come to us, particularly in those areas with their own desires and wishes with respect to how they can fit into the program.

I hope that answers the member's question. Loan Gu arantee Program MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCH ARD: Thank you, Mr. Spea ker. My question is for the Minister of Agriculture. Can the Minister indicate that under the recently announced $100 million Loan Guarantee Program of which the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation is providing a 12.5 percent guarantee on that $100 million guarantee portfolio, can he indicate if the guarantee will be claimed and exercised on a 12.5 percent prorated basis on an individual loan case? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B.

URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I don't have all the details of the program here with me, but when we are in my Estimates, we will certainly be able to get those details. The announcement was made, but there are a number of guidelines. I will have to check that out, Mr. Speaker. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister when he is checking that out might also determine whether the equity basis for eligibility has been raised from 10 percent to 20 percent.

As well, would the Minister indicate that since this guaranteed program is considered the last hope for a number of farmers for arranging financing this spring, that if some of these farmers do not qualify under the program as announced, will it be the end of their farming operations? Is there no further place that they can go and apply to the MACC? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, this Loan Guarantee Program is a co-operative program with financial lending institutions who do the bulk of the ongoing lending to agriculture in the Province of Manitoba.

MACC funding, in terms of debt consolidation and assistance is still available to farmers who qualify on an ongoing basis. Mr. Speaker, under the Interest Rate Relief Program as well, our staff are involved in assisting farmers who are in difficulties and dealing with those who may not qualify for the Interest Rate Relief Program in trying to put together packages of refinancing and assistance to make available as best they can to those who are having difficulties in meeting their needs for the springtime operations. 1262

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On March 14th, I took as notice some questions from the Member for Minnedosa, wherein he asked information as to the number of municipal officials that attended the regional meetings held by myself in eight areas of the Province of Manitoba. I can report that at seven of those eight meetings there were representatives of various municipalities in attendance.

There was a total for all the meetings of 15 municipal officials attending the meetings, representing 12 different municipalities in the Province of Manitoba. I might add that at the provincial conference, there were 18 delegates representing 15 municipalities throughout rural and Northern Manitoba. Camp Shilo Report MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Speake r. My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources. Has the Minister received the environmental report on Camp Shilo, which I understand has been prepared by Maclaren Plansearch? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKUNG: Mr. Speaker, as part of a preliminary work the department was undertaking prior to completing negotiations with the Federal Government, the Department of Defence, in respect to the Shilo lease arrangement, we did ask for an environmental impact study in respect to the area. We have received a report; the department has been looking at it. I haven't personally examined it, but I am aware of the fact that there is concern in respect to the particular impact of leafy spurge in the area of the shelling.

It is a matter of serious concern and that is one of the reasons why we felt it important not to merely enter quickly into a lease arrangement and make sure that all of the details and all of the concerns that we have in the area would be amply protected in any lease arrangement we make. MRS. C. OLESON: Will the Minister table that report as soon as he can, please? HON. A. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Speaker, certainly I will be happy to share the information of the report. I believe, however, that the department is still working with it and it will be the basis of discussion.

I think that under the arrangements we have, the Federal Government shares costing in respect to the report and I would assume that it would be necessary to confirm arrangements with them. I don't think that should be any difficulty. Certainly I will be happy to provide the information as soon as I can. Manitoba Horse Racing Commission MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Membe.r for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, one further question to the Minister of Economic Development.

Could she confirm that as a result of the botching of their responsibilities by the Members of the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission whom she appointed, Mr. Speaker, will the job given to Mr. Freeman now be advertised throughout Canada in Canada Employment and Immigration Offices on the basis of a job description prepared and approved by the federal department? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I think the preparation of the job description has to be done by the commission in consultation with the people affected.

I have full confidence that they will be in communication with the federal department and I'm sure that they will make every effort to comply with their requirements. I remind the members opposite that the advertisement did go across Canada in four or five newspapers. This is the first time, Mr. Speaker, that a Horse Racing Commission in Manitoba has done other than make appointments. As I said earlier, there may be some procedural activities which need improvement. They would be the first to say that they have been going through a very difficult developmental task.

They want to do what is good for racing in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. I have confidence that they will act in a responsible and open and constructive manner. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Speaker, in view of the comment by the Minister that the Horse Racing Commission could make appointments, would she guarantee to this House, that in view of the botching of this job in developing a job description tailor-made to one of the applicants, will she guarantee to this House that this Horse Racing Commission will not make any appointments in the future and will be required to advertise any jobs throughout Canada? HON. M.

SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the Mickey Mouse kind of logic coming from across the hall really does astonish me. You say that because a commission on one out of a hundred activities has done something less than 100 percent right, you take away from them all privileges and all responsibilities. Mr. Speaker, my understanding of people working in responsible jobs is that they do their level best to carry out a good job. No one is perfect - on this side, the other side, or anywhere on this earth, Mr. Speaker. I've already given my undertaking that the commission will act in a legal and constructive and open manner.

I confirm that, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please . The time for oral questions having expired Orders of the Day . The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, before we proceed to Orders of the Day, if I might be permitted, by leave, to make a non-political statement? MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister have leave? (Agreed) 1263

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 The Honourable Minister of Housing. NON-POL ITICAL STATEMENT HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last weekend the Flin Flon Bantam Bombers were in Winnipeg to compete in the Provincial Bantam Championships. I would like to ask my colleagues and members opposite to join me in congratulating this group of young hockey players who, like the North itself, overcame great odds to succeed. I was pleased to note the press report indicated that they were a fine group of people, and in particular, the goalie Dean Owen, was outstanding.

I should say this is a particularly joyful occasion for me because I taught a good number of the individuals playing on this team. The team in general, is a fine group _of young men. The Flin Flon team will be representing the province in the Western Canada Bantam Championships which occur, I believe, not this weekend, but the following weekend in Winnipeg. I know the House joins me in wishing them well as they represent Manitoba. ORDERS OF THE DAY COMMITTEE CHANGES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MRS. D. DODICK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have some committee changes, please.

For Municipal Affairs, I would like to add the Member for Gimli replacing the Member for Riel, remove the Member for lnkster and add the Member for Dauphin. For Statutory Regulations and Orders, I would like to add the Member for Riel, removing the Member for Gimli. In Industrial Relations, remove the Member for Osborne and the Member for Rossmere, add the Member for Kildonan and the Member for Thompson. On Public Utilities, will you add the Member for Springfield, removing the Member for Riel. I have copies for the Clerk too, if he would like. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R.

PENNER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker, the intention to proceed with Estimates through the balance of the day and, by agreement with the Opposition House Leader, to dispense with Private Members' Hour, and to continue with Estimates till 5:30. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain on a point of order. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, I believe that the agreement was to dispense with Private Members' Hour, but I'm assuming that we'd be adjourning at 4:30. HON. R. PENNER: Well, presumably, if the committees are in full flight of interesting things and wish to continue past that hour, arrangements could be made at that time. If they would rather go home and bury Easter eggs, I suppose that we can at 4:30.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture; and the Honourable Member for Springfield in the Chair for the Department of Government Services. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - GOVERNMENT SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, A. Anstett: Committee come to order. Continuing consideration of the Department of Government Services, Resolution No. 83. Field Services; (

f) Security Services: 1. Salaries, $1,750,600.00. The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. When we quit the other evening, we had just started to get into the field of Security. I had started to raise the point that in the last short period of time, we have had a rather unfortunate incident at the Archives Building where security was broached and there was some valuable material that disappeared. Could the Minister indicate whether the person that was apprehended was one of the new security persons hired in the past year? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Government Services. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the person that is alleged to have committed the offences and who had admitted to those offences was a janitorial staff, maintenance staff, not a security staff. Maintenance has been under in-house operation for a number of years. As a matter of fact, I believe in 1980, the previous government was thinking of moving away from in-house janitorial services for the Archives Building and the staff at the Archives Building registered disapproval of that, and that move was then stopped. They continued with in-house janitorial, and that is presently continuing.

The individual, therefore, was not a security person. MR. H. GRAHAM: I thank the honourable member for that information. We had the announcement a year ago of the change in policy and there was going to be increased security staff hired in the past year. Could the Minister indicate how many new staff were hired in the past year? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, the total number of in-house in the last fiscal year and, therefore, not reflected in the Estimates that we're considering as additions to this year, was 46. MR. H. GRAHAM: Could the Minister indicate what criteria was used in the hiring of that staff?

Was this done entirely through the Civil Service Commission? 1264

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. MR. H. GRAHAM: Was the final discretion left with a short list with the Minister in each case, or was the final hiring done entirely by the Civil Service Commission? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I was not the Minister when all of these hirings were taking place. However, it was done using normal procedures, which was through the department and the Civil Service Commission; that is, with the Deputy Minister through the department. I don't believe the Minister had anything to do with the final selection. MR. H.

GRAHAM: I thank the Honourable Minister for that information. At the same time, could the Minister indicate how many people were displaced out of the private sector security with the hiring of these 46 new staff? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we don't have the figures as to if there are are certain number of people unemployed because of moving to in-house security, people who were working for private contractors.

But they were encouraged to apply and did apply, many of them, and a number of them were hired because of their obvious familiarity with the job and skills in that area and were able to move into government service then. The exact numbers as to how many came from the private sector absorbed from those contractors who were displaced under this program is not available at this time. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, maybe the Minister misunderstood me. I didn't ask how many were transferred, I asked how many positions were replaced, positions that were under contract.

When a contractor, I presume, has a contract to provide security for a certain building he must guarantee X number of people. Could the Minister indicate how many positions were done away with in the tendering contract business and replaced by security from the government? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I apologize for misinterpreting the question. The fact is that approximately the same number of positions employed by the government would have been displaced in the private sector. MR. H. GRAHAM: Wh en the Minister says approximately the same number, can he be more specific? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I did state earlier that we haven't surveyed the private contractors to determine exactly how many positions have been displaced. In some cases, perhaps, partial positions were displaced; perhaps they were moved into other jobs that the contractor had, supplement work they had there. We have not evaluated at this point the exact number. We are saying, though, that approximately the same number of positions would have been displaced. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister does know exactly how many contracts were canceled; he does know the exact number of people that were contracted for under those contracts. Is it possible for the Minister to give us that information? I don't need it right now; I can wait for it at a future meeting. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that four of the 46 positions were for supervisory positions. Therefore, the number from the private sector would have been 42 positions. Whether some of their supervisory personnel would have been displaced by this is not clear at this time. MR. H.

GRAHAM: So the number that were canceled by cancellation of contracts was 42. That is an exact number, is it? HON. J. PLOHMAN: To the best of my knowledge that is an exact number. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(f)

(1) Salaries $1,750, 600-pass; 2.(f)

(2) Other Expenditures $440, 100-pass; 2.(

g) Gimli Industrial Park

(1) Salaries $1,368,900.00. The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, when it comes to the Gimli Industrial Park I noticed that the staff is approximately the same number; if you take the increase in wages, it appears to be the same number. Could the Minister give us a report on the activities of the Gimli Industrial Park to the extent of the percentage of total utilization? HON. J. PLOHM.AN: The Gimli Industrial Park is currently 75 percent occupied which is slightly less than it was last year. There have been a couple of moves out of the Park this past year.

One was EEE Trailers which consolidated their operations in Winkler and moved out of the operations at Gimli and there were a couple of warehousing operations that were moved out. Basically, other than those three, there is the same percentage of occupation of the Park. MR. H. GRAHAM: Is the Gimli Industrial Park still being used as storage for some rather dangerous goods until such time as we find a safe place for their keeping? HON. J. PLOHM.AN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is the case. MR. H. GRAHAM: What security is there in place to secure the hazardous goods to ensure that there is no further leakage? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the Environmental Control Department is in charge of that operation in terms of security and it is completely fenced off and secure from that point of view. MR. H. GRAHAM: So it doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of the Minister at all as to the upkeep of it? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That is correct, Mr. Chairman. 1265

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 MR. H. GRAHAM: I have no further questions unless MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(

g) Gimli Industrial Park

(1) Salaries $1,368,9 00-pass; 2.(g)

(2) Other Expenditures $910, 700-pass; 2.(

h) Alterations, Furniture, Furnishings and Incidental Expenses - Project Management

(1) Minor Projects $303,000.00. The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, we notice there is a rather sharp reduction in Minor Projects in this field. Would that be as a result of the complete refurbishing of the Premier's office and it's not being done again this year? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, there has not been a greater degree of refurbishing of Ministerial offices during the first year of operation since this government has been in office than there has been in the past.

I could go back and give the averages for the years, and you would see it's very similar; as a matter fact, quite a bit greater in certain years, the amount of dollars spent on refurbishing of offices. It is an ongoing endeavour by the governments to keep the offices in good order in this building, but I would say that the difference in that amount simply reflects what will mean that the departments will have to do better planning for renovations and alterations ahead of time and, therefore, budget for it.

This is the amount that is spent from Government Services for alterations as they come up that are unplanned ahead of time in budgeting and, therefore, we have cut back on that appropriation. It would simply mean that other departments are going to have to do a better job of planning for their alterations because we will be able to meet those requests to a lesser extent, to the tune of $95,000.00. As you can see, the $248,000 figure is the amount that is recovered from other departments. They actually budget for these minor alterations to that extent. MR. CHAIRMAN: Further questions? MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I think if you'd go back over the years, you'll find that any year after a change in government that the Minor Projects under Government Services rises dramatically for approximately one year. I don't think it's confined to any one particular political party. It's the party in power at the time. I know the Honourable Member for Elmwood may have some disagreement on that. I believe he always wanted more work done in Minor Projects when he was Minister of Government Services. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I think that the statements made by the honourable member would be borne out to a certain extent.

I can point out that in 1979-80 there was $281,000 spent on renovations of this building. In 1982-83 there was $109,000 spent. In the years in-between that time there was a lesser amount spent; $12,000 in 1980-81 and $30,000 in 1981- 82. So, the members could see, Mr. Chairman, that when our government came into office, the amount spent on refurbishing and renovations for this building was approximately one-third of that spent by the previous government in 1979-80f That is not including inflation. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, I would ask the Minister then if the reported $30,000 of a minor nature spent on the changes to the Legislative Assembly, if that came under Minor Projects? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, that came under Construction Acquisition, as we indicated the previous day that we were dealing with this. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you. MR. CH AIRMAN: 2.(

h) Alterations, Furniture, Furnishings and Incidental Expenses - Project Management-pass. 2.(

j) Energy Management and Technical Services:

(1) Salaries $361,200-pass; 2.(j)

(2) Other Expenditures $102,000.00. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, would this be the appropriate place to ask the Minister if he's received the weather information that we requested a couple or three days ago? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I believe the information the honourable member requested was made available to him the previous day. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 2.(j)

(2) Other Expenditures­ pass. Resolution No. 83. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $43, 155,6 00 for Government Services, Field Services, $43, 155, 600.00. The Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: I just want to ask the Minister where I could ask some questions about the sound system in the legislature, assuming there is a sound system. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I believe you wanted to know where you would ask the question about the sound services in this building, is that correct?

I was referring to, and checking on the fact that we have already covered the areas where we would have dealt with that in Field Services, under Physical Plant. MR. R. DOERN: Well, maybe the Minister could allow me to ask a question here. MR. CHAIRMAN: On a point of order, the resolution now before us is the blanket resolution for Item 2. Field Services, and debate on any item within that resolution is in order while the blanket resolution is before us. The Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, just a couple of points. I've already asked this House, I asked a question in the House.

I have never been satisfied with the new sound system in comparison to the old. We've spent a lot of money putting in a new system which may be good in terms of Hansard staff hearing and being able to type speeches. It may have other advantages in terms 1266

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 of French translation, but in terms of members sitting in the House and hearing the debate without the aid of an earphone or earpiece, it's useless. In the old days, meaning before the new system a few years ago, a member could sit and hear the debate quite easily because each member had an individual microphone. Now we have so-called "natural voice" which means the speaker has no amplification, which means that the hecklers across the way have equal volume with the speaker and I think it results in an inferior system. I think it's chaotic and a nuisance in that one cannot, at times, hear the debate unless one has an earphone, which I think is unnecessary. This is a

preamble, Mr. Chairman. We have, upstairs in the galleries, amplification equipment. So the question is this: Why can't a sound system crew be brought in, some technical people? It's surely just a small technical problem to install some form of amplifiers, either on the floor, or an individual amplifier at each desk as before. Surely to God, with the passage of time and with all this modern technology, somebody out there knows how to install a system where you won't have feedback and where you won't require people to wear earphones. So I am simply saying to the Minister, would he check into this.

Could he consult with the Speaker and Internal Economy to see whether some technical physical improvements could be made. I know that I don't stand alone on this. I know there are other members who also are dissatisfied with the present system. So I'm asking the Minister whether he either has checked into this or would be good enough to check into it and see whether we could make some improvement? HON. J. PlOHMAN: I believe t.hat the honourable member had indicated to me that he would be approaching the Board of Internal Economy and the Speaker on this particular issue.

If he has not done that, I certainly would be prepared to raise it at the Board of Internal Economy, on which I sit, to get the feelings of that Board with regard to this request. MR. R. DOERN: I have drawn this to the attention of the Minister and I do so now formally. I have drawn it to the attention of the Speaker. I would ask the Minister to carry the case. If necessary, I would be happy to attend, but I would ask him to carry the case and make the enquiry and get some prices as well and some alternatives, because ultimately it will come down to a question of dollars and cents. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I have given the undertaking that I would take it to the Board of Internal Economy. In terms of prices and so on, that was the next step that would have to be considered by the Board of Internal Economy if they wish to proceed that far. MR. CHAIRMAN: Further discussion on Resolution No. 83, Field Services? The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Just a small matter on the same point as the Member for Elmwood was making. Even using the earphone where I sit, I have to have it on full blast to hear some of the speaking, so that system itself isn't working all that well.

I wonder if the Minister would mind having someone look into that? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would certainly be prepared to take those matters if it is a general feeling of the members who control that Assembly, who are concerned about the sound system in there, and I think many have experienced some difficulty with it, that then there should be something done about it, and I think that general concensus would come out if there was a problem that most people felt was present. MR. CHAIRMAN: Further questions or debate on Resolution No. 83, Field Services $43, 155,6 00-p ass.

No. 3. Supply and Services, Resolution No. 84(

a) Executive Administration: Salaries, $152,5 00.00. The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just a general question. At the beginning, I notice that the government department and agency provides support services such as transportation, office machines and equipment, etc., etc.

In the field of transportation, and probably I'm a little more aware of it today, since we went to Brandon to the Royal Winter Fair yesterday, would it be Government Services that provided the transportation for members of the Legislature to attend the Royal Winter Fair in Brandon yesterday, or would it be some other department? HON. J. PLOH MAN: Mr. Chairman, it's my understanding that was supplied by the Department of Economic Development. MR. H. GRAHAM: I just wanted that clarified before we started. MR. CHAIRMAN: (a)(1), Salaries, $152, 500-pass; Other Expenditures, $6, 600- pass; 3.(b)

(1) Central Vehicle Branch, Salaries, $1, 181,000. 00. The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, when we're dealing with the Central Vehicle Branch, the Honourable Member for Pembina indicated to me t;'at he would want to ask some questions on the operation of the Central Vehicle Branch. I'm sure that there are many other members that may want to ask questions regarding the operation of the Central Vehicle Branch. To begin with, I would like to ask the Minister how many executive cars, such as, Cabinet Minister's cars, the government has in its fleet this year, as compared to previous years? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the total number is 19 used by Ministers and the Leader of the Opposition, the Premier. The total last year, of course, since there were fewer Ministers would have been less; there would have been more in the executive pool fleet. The number that would have been present under the former administration would have been very similar to that because the Cabinet was very much the same at 1267

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 that time, and there could have been a variation of one or two in the executive pool. There's always about four or five cars that are kept on as pool cars for members of the Executive Council; if there's a problem to the individual cars, then they would draw from the executive pool. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Could the Minister indicate what people qualify for his definition of an executive-driven sedan? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the people that qualify are the Ministers, the Leader of the Opposition and the Premier. MR. D.

ORCHARD: What's the total car fleet again? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the total car fleet for the government last year was 2,5 81. This year it's 2,524, a drop of 57. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now, the executive fleet is approximately 19 cars, I take it? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That is correct, plus the pool of four currently. Some of those in the pool are getting up pretty high on the mileage and will be retired when the replacement cars come in, but there's a total, then, of 23 active cars, if you want to use that term. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Who has access to the four cars that are within the pool that aren't assigned, I assume, specifically to a Minister? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, these are for use of the Ministers, as I mentioned earlier, when required, and sometimes Deputy Ministers have utilized those cars, but on very rare occasions. MR. D. ORCHARD: How about Special Assistants, or any of the Order-in-Council appointments? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, Apecial Assistants would, if they required a car would obtain those from the regular pool of the fleet. MR. DE PUTY CH AIRMAN, G. Lecuyer: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: The Premier, I take it, has a fairly substantial use of a larger car out of that four-car fleet? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think it is widely known that the Premier has a compact car that he uses as his regular car, and only at times when that car would be in for servicing for long periods, would he use a car from the pool. MR. D. ORCHARD: Could the Minister provide us with the number of times and the mileage that one of those full-sized pool cars has been signed out to the Premier's Office? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, we can obtain that information; we certainly don't have it here readily available at this time. MR. D. ORCHARD: Then I take it the Minister will provide that information at his earliest convenience, which might be on Monday? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, it's possible that we could have that information for the honourable member this afternoon. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you. The Minister seems to make quite a lot of to-do about this new policy, the replacement of executive-driven sedans, with compact models.

I take it that there would be 22 such vehicles because you have 23 cars, one of which is already a compact, and out of a fleet of 2,500 vehicles, or thereabouts, what you're talking about is replacing less than 1 percent of them with compact cars. Yet, the Minister likes to always bring this forward as being a great and tremendous amount of cost-saving. I really think that he's attempting, in some small way, to make a great to-do about 22 cars out of a fleet of 2,500 being sized down. We're certainly not going to have much of a dent on a $600 million projected deficit that the government is running.

It may be very good politics to have the Premier with a picture in the paper beside a compact car, and then down the line immediately are the fleet of full-sized cars that all the other Ministers have, and down the other parking stall lineup is the fleet of full-sized cars that the other Cabinet Ministers have. It really is a little bit of, I suppose it might be called offsetting politics, the tradeoff being $75 a yard carpet in the Premier's office in return for driving a compact car and still having access to any one of four stand-by pool cars which are full-sized, if and when the Premier needs those cars.

The Minister really, in promoting this compact­ car business, is attempting to make quite a large issue out of really much less than 1 percent of the car fleet being converted over. Particularly when each and every one of the Ministers has renewed, probably within the last year, his full-sized car, the last tag-a-long being the Premier who has decided to go for a compact car. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'll deal with the last comment first and that is that the Ministers have not had new cars purchased. There have been six cars purchased in 19 81, one for the Leader of the Opposition.

These were purchased under the previous policy utilized by the previous government which was to purchase full-sized cars and the same criteria was used by this government for the first year. Since that time, a new policy has been adopted and that would supply for Executive Council use only compact cars and the number replaced this year is only one so far and that is for the Honourable Minister of Economic Development; the car assigned to her was over the 151 ,000 kilometre mark. She is driving a pool car right now, a regular, small, Aries compact car until such time as her new K car arrives.

The policy is that the cars will be replaced only during their normal replacement time when that comes up, which is four years or 12 8,000 kilometres, not before that . So there 1268

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 will not be any replacement that will take place in an accelerated form; it will be a normal process. The only one that does not adhere to that and largely, I believe, to set the stage and to let people know that they are serious about is the Premier's car which has 78,000 kilometres and so that was not replaced under the normal replacement cycle. All of the other Minister's cars will be under the normal replacement cycle. That will be done over the next number of years under this policy and certainly will not take place immediately.

I can say that the previous government replaced cars in 19 79-80, replaced 17 vehicles. We have replaced only six vehicles since we've been in office with the seventh one this year that has been ordered. I believe that it is a significant step because under the previous government of which the honourable member was a Minister, they did say that they would move towards the use of compact cars for the Civil Service, but not for themselves. We have adopted that policy for the Cabinet as well as for the civil servants generally and we have put greater emphasis even on the use of sub­ compact cars.

I should mention that of the fleet of 2,500 approximately, the number of sedans is only 1, 085. We're dealing with a smaller group overall, so the percentage would be higher if we want to deal with the point that was made by honourable member that this was such a small percentage of the overall fleet. Of that overall fleet of sedans, in 1981 when we took office only 75 percent of the cars were compact; we have that up to 94 percent now and we will be able to approach closer to the 100 percent simply by including the ministerial vehicles in that. We feel that is significant.

I think it is a strong message to Manitobans that we truly believe that we should be moving to compact cars and we're prepared to drive them ourselves. MR. D. ORCHARD: The Premier's car with 78,000 miles on it was placed in the pool fleet or is it in the deputy minister's use? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Under the normal replacement for the ministerial cars, the ones that are in best shape are then put into the pool for the executive ministerial pool and, of course, the Premier's former car is a 19 79 model which is four years old but it is one of the lower mileage cars and is in the pool for Ministers. llll R. D.

ORCHARD: How many cars are now assigned to staff in the Premier's office? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we'd have to get that information from the Premier's office; I don't know how many cars are assigned to the Premier's office at this time. I would like to mention one other thing that has been brought to my attention and that is simply the fact that ministerial cars are not passed on to deputy ministers as has been the practiced under the previous government. That has been changed; they are used for ministerial pool cars only. Those that are in worst shape are dispensed with, sold. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I take it that the Minister will provide that information on cars assigned to the staff in the Premier's office at 2 o'clock and that - I take it the policy has been changed - the deputy ministers will be receiving new cars. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, deputy ministers will receive new cars, compact variety, when their cars come up for replacement - the same as with all the cases when the cars are up for replacement. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(1 )- pass. The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, earlier in the Session the issue was raised in the Legislature regarding the great deal of difference that is paid for certain ministerial cars. In particular there was a car, I believe, the Minister of Agriculture had a Pontiac - I don't think it was an outstandingly different than any other car - but there seemed to be about about a $3,000 differential in the price of that car as compared to Pontiacs of similar model that had been purchased for the use of other Ministers. Could the Minister indicate what difference there was in that vehicle that would indicate a $3,000 differential? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, first of all there has to be a correction in the price of that vehicle. It was listed in the Order for Return at somewhere over $1 4, 000.00. There was an error, in that the computer listing had included federal tax and all of the vehicles that were listed did not include federal tax except that one, which was an error. The actual price for that vehicle is $1 3, 129 or $13, 154 - I don't know the exact figure but it's very slightly over $13, 000.00. Over $1,000 of that difference was due to the fact that the federal tax was recorded on the computer when it shouldn't have been.

So that would account for over $1, 000; we're dealing then with less than $2,000 difference. There have been a number of cases in the past where government vehicles purchased in different areas of the province have resulted in significantly varying prices. For example, a few years back - and I could get the specific year - the Member for Thompson, the Minister of Labour I believe, Mr. MacMaster had a car purchased in Thompson. It was exactly the same kind of car that was purchased for the Leader of the Opposition at that time, Mr.

Pawley, and there was over $1, 000 variance in that particular purchase, because one was purchased in Thompson and one was purchased in W:'lnipeg where they may have gotten a number of quotes on the price for the car. It has been the practice for a number of years under the previous government as well as under this government, up to now, that Ministerial vehicles were purchased in the area of the choice of the Minister. So what happened was that the Minister would make a choice.

If he wanted to purchase his vehicle in his constituency, which was done on numerous occasions under the previous government, and there was not always the number of quotes or there was no tendering for those cars and that may have resulted in some higher prices at times, but we believe that this should be addressed, and we certainly will be recommending that this be changed and perhaps be looking at tenders, even in regions, or that at least three quotations are obtained before a car is purchased. The Minister would 1269

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 then be made aware of the price, because right now the Minister would indicate where he wants the car purchased from and he would not have any knowledge of the price of that vehi cle. He would just give information to Government Services where that vehicle would be purchased and then it would be purchased there. So we want to provide a better system of communication so that the Ministers are aware of the price of the cars and they would be done only after a number of quotations are received. MR. H. GRAHAM: I want to thank the Minister for that explanation.

It still doesn't tell us why the difference in price, the differential is more than 100 percent greater than what it was between, say, a Winnipeg dealer and a dealer in Thompson. I believe this dealer probably isn't near as far north as Thompson, so I would expect that the differential would be less rather than 100 percent more. So, could the Minister provide us with a copy of the sales contract, the name of the company, and the name of the owner of that company, and the equipment on the car? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we could definitely provide that information.

I have no hesitation in providing it as soon as we receive it. I will mention as well, though, that one other factor involved in the purchase of cars from the lot, between March and September, cars for that model year cannot be ordered and so, therefore, if there are any purchases that take place during that five months of the year, they have to be purchased from the lot from existing stock. So what happens is that very often the car that is purchased is already on a lot somewhere in the area or may even be transferred from one dealer to another when they haven't got it in stock.

In that case, sometimes the options that are present on that particular vehicle are not those that are necessarily requested or even wanted by the Minister, or standard options for Ministerial vehicles. We have a list of standardized Ministerial options and we have that available as well, but that was set up since the time of the purchase of the vehicle that we're talking about at this time.

But 1. believe there was a list of options as well that were standard for Ministerial vehicles, and occasionally a car would be purchased where there were additional options because they were on the car at the time, and the car was being purchased at that time of the year where it could not be specified exactly what options were required and therefore ordered from the factory, as most of our tendered cars are done. So we would be able to get the information as to the specific options for the honourable member. MR. H.

GRAHAM: At the same time, would the Minister also provide us with the specifications of the options the department does provide for Ministerial cars? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, if the honourable member wishes, I could go through them right at this time. MR. H. GRAHAM: Just table it with us; it would be fine. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, I can table this, Mr. Chairman. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(1 ) - the Member for Virden. MR. H.

GRAHAM: When we're dealing with government vehicles, could the Minister indicate to us, excluding trucks over one ton, how many vehicles the province has that are of the four-wheel variety as far as power train is concerned, and what departments those four­ wheel vehicles are assigned to? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We have 11 half-ton four-wheel drives in the replacement section. Is the honourable member asking for the total number of tour-wheel drives in the fleet or the number . . . MR. H. GRAHAM: That's right, the total number in the fleet. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I do not have that figure broken out at this time but we can get that information for the honourable member. MR. H. GRAHAM: I thank the Honourable Minister for that. There is another question I would like to ask the Minister, and that is dealing with the supply of vehicles. Does the Department of Government Services supply vehicles to boards and commissions of government as well as the Civil Service? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, that is the case in certain instances where cars are supplied to certain boards and commissions; this has always existed. MR. H.

GRAHAM: Then I would like to ask the Minister to provide us with the number of vehicles that have been provided to the new beef program in the Province of Manitoba. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we have the listings for the total number of cars for each department, but not by commission or branch or so on at our disposal at this time, but we can get that information as well. MR. H. GRAHAM: I thank the Minister for that. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(1)-pass; 3.(b)(2) - the Member tor Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the government is promoting a Buy Manitoba Program.

Is the Minister giving any consideration to the introduction of gasohol at the Central Garage so that the fleet fueled out of Winnipeg would be able to burn gasohol which, of course, has 10 percent Manitoba production content, and by any reports I've heard of people using gasohol, it is at least as good if not better than comparable non-alcohol fuels. Is the Minister giving consideration to switching over the Central Garage to gasohol? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the total fuel needs are tendered; the quotes are received and the lowest tender is taken at the present time.

A lot of the fuel that's purchased is purchased outside of the city by individual civil servants as they go about their business with the vehicle and therefore gasohol can be purchased 1270

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 at that time. However, I feel that the suggestion - if that's what the honourable member is making - should certainly be investigated.

If we can be utilizing gasohol in our fleet to a greater extent and using greater Manitoba content in purchasing, I would think that would be something that should be looked into in terms of comparable prices at least, and then make the decision from there as to whether it would still be feasible to change over at that point If the costs are at least only marginally different, marginally higher, for the gasohol, then I would suggest that that be considered. I would strongly suggest that. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well then, could the Minister indicate three pieces of information, basically, the amount of fuel, the volume of fuel that goes through the central garage over there; number two, who currently supplies that, who is the lower bidder on that fuel contract; number three, whether Mohawk tendered on that supply of fuel to the central garage? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that we do not have that information available here, but would certainly be prepared to provide that probably by this afternoon. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(2) - the Member for Assiniboia. MR. FI. NORDMAN: Mr.

Chairman, how many of the government vehicles are presently using alternative fuels? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we have 14 propane driven vehicles at this time that we're experimenting with. I am sure people are aware that the Manitoba Telephone System has done quite a bit of work in this area in terms of the use of alternate fuels, propane and gasohol. We are obtaining the information from them and studying that information to determine the feasibility of whether we should move further into that direction on the basis of performance alone.

I think the other factor that is certainly significant is the Manitoba content in terms of gasohol, as I mentioned before. That would add significance to utilizing gasohol in government vehicles. MR. R. NORDMAN: Have you been able to ascertain whether the cost of the - I know there are certain things that you have to do to your motors to accommodate the other fuels - are you finding that they are reasonably cost-worthy? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, there's not a significant difference in the costs in terms of the overall evaluation. It is very close to being the same in terms of cost MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(2) - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has stated previously that in the field of energy saving, they have done extensive work in trying to save costs in energy in the heating and the care of provincial building�.

I 1271 would like to know in the field of vehicles, the gross provincial fleet, what were the total purchases of fuel in each of the last three years by the government in their fleet to see whether the corresponding decline in the total usage of fuels follows the trend of Manitobans in general where we have approximately an 8 percent decline per annum since the price of fuel has gone up. MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we do have a figure that gives the average kilometreage for government vehicles for 1979 -80, for example, as a base year as compared to 1982-83.

That would certainly indicate what percentage increase there has been and what is being achieved in terms of kilometres per gallon. However, the total purchase of fuel over the last three years, in each particular year, I do not have available. I am attempting to receive the information in terms of the average kilometreage, which I believe would indicate very clearly to the honourable member, in what direction we are going and what percentage direction or change there is. MR. H.

GRAHAM: I thank the Honourable Minister for that information, but in his efforts to obtain an average, surely he must use the figure of the total. I don't see how he can compute an average if he doesn't have the total to begin with. So I would assume that he does have the total amount of fuel that has been purchased through any fiscal year. That information must be available some place. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I didn't say that it's not available anywhere; I said I did not have it here at this time. I said that I thought we had the averages for the vehicles driven or the kilometres per hour.

It turns out that we don't have the average kilometres right at this time. We certainly can get the total purchases though for each of those years. There is no problem with that MR. H. GRAHAM: I am sure the Minister will provide us with those figures then. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Ch.·irman. One general concern and I often get it expressed to me by constituents in regard to the use of government vehicles. In a lot of cases, the concerns stem from a misunderstanding of the kind of use that is authorized for those particular government vehicles.

I was wondering, therefore, whether the Minister could perhaps provide some information to people in general so that they are aware of the general guidelines, so that if there are any cases of abuse taking place that people will report them, but that people have a clear idea of what is authorized for government use and what isn't because I know it's a frequent concern that's expressed to me from the Thompson area. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I don't know whether I can reply comprehensively to that question at this time. I can tell you that there is provision for personal use -

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 something that is not necessarily known by the public generally - by paying a certain amount per month, in the neighbourhood of $30 or $35 per month, they are allowed up to 500 kilometres per month for personal use. That includes now with the new taxation guidelines by the Federal Government, going to and from work. So in addition to that, they have to pay the costs of operating that vehicle in addition to that mileage for any personal use. In terms of spouses, I believe spouses can also operate the vehicle fleet under that clause as well.

But they cannot, it is my understanding, use it for going to another place of work. In other words, use the vehicle for their own working needs. There's a number of considerations that one would have to take into account if one were feeling that there abuses taking place. Certainly that is the policy, that there is provision for personal mileage. It is a source of problems because certain times vehicles are used excessively for personal use and that can present a problem in terms of cost to the government, and something that we have to be constantly concerned about. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Thompson. MR. S.

ASHTON: Well, the Minister has certainly, guess has been made aware of the areas that I've been made aware of in terms of particular concern, which is basically the private use of those vehicles. As the Minister indicated, I think it's often not well known amongst members of the general public that there are situations under which government employees pay for that personal use, and therefore, it's for a legitimate use of those vehicles.

I was wondering though whether, perhaps if the Minister could provide me with detailed guidelines, perhaps I can distribute it to constituents who have expressed concern in this area, so that they're aware of the general guidelines, and so that if there are cases of abuse, they can report that and action can be taken to stop it? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the manual of administration contains those guidelines. I can certainly make that available to the honourable member. I should point out though that the provisions for personal use are not something that is administered by this department.

The provisions are negotiated with MGEA, and if they were to change, would have to be done under those conditions. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b) - the Member for St. Johns. MR. D. MALINOWSKI: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister, do we have civil servants who are using their own cars for work, and if so, how much are we paying them? ls this on a monthly basis, weekly, or per mile, or kilometres, or whatever? If so, how many cars do we have like that? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, we would be able to get that information only from the various departments that are utilizing that method of having government business being conducted, instead of acquiring a government car for a particular employee who is perhaps not making enough mileage in a particular year to warrant having a government car, then we would pay mileage to that particular employee. Usually, if he's under 19,200 kilometres per year, it would be more feasible, that is the figure that would it would be more feasible to pay mileage as opposed to authorizing a government car for the individual employee to use.

In terms of the actual rate, that is a negotiated rate with MGEA as well. It's a factor that has been negotiated. It's in the Manual of Administration as well, in terms of what that rate is. As I said, we do not have the exact numbers of cars that are utilized in this way by each department. We could get that from each department. It would take quite a bit of research. MR. D. MALINOWSKI: But, we have something like that. I'm not thinking about the government cars, but their own. The civil servants who are working, they are using their own cars. Do we have something like that in various departments? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we would have to canvass the departments, as I stated, to get that information. I understood clearly that was personal vehicles that were being used for government business when circumstances require, and a certain amount per kilometre is paid by the government for that, and that rate is negotiated through MGEA. As I said, in terms of the actual number of vehicles and the total kilometreage for that particular category, we would have to get that information from the various departments.

If the honourable member was concerned about one specific department, we could perhaps isolate it that way. MR. D. MALINOSKI: No, any departments. Okay, thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(2) - The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Chairman, I recall going back a few years, in the tour years that I was the Speaker of the Assembly, I believe there was an occasion when my own personal vehicle was damaged in an accident on the grounds here, at which time I had occasion to use a pool car from the government fleet, because of my requirement to be in the Legislative Assembly as Speaker of the House. I wonder if the Minister could give us any information on the usage of pool cars by maybe other MLAs; to what extent that is done, and if it is done in the interests of carrying on their duties as Members of the Assembly? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, from time to time, an MLA is required to utilize the government vehicle if he or she is representing a Minister for a particular reason and in those particular circumstances, normally would use the Minister's vehicle, representing the Minister. However, if that isn't available for whatever reason, then occasionally, I understand the Minister of that department could authorize the MLA to utilize the vehicle to represent him on government business; him or her. 1272

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 I should say, Mr. Chairman, that our department will not give out that vehicle unless the Minister has authorized the use of it for government business. MR. H. GRAHAM: Could the Minister indicate the number of times that has occurred in the past fiscal year, just so we can some idea of what usage is being made of that? HON . J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, a lot of this information is as about complicated as some of the information that has been asked for in Orders for Return. I hope that we can get all of this information.

We'll certainly make every effort to get that for the honourable member. MR. H. GRAHAM: I thank the Honourable Minister for that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it the pleasure of the committee, 3.(b)(2)-pass; 3.(b)(3)-pass; 3.(c)(1)-pass. The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, dealing with the office equipment branch, there has been I know, numerous requests made from the various caucus rooms, I can only speak for our own, where there have been requests for additional office:equipment and space to carry out the duties of the MLAs and they're operating under very cramped quarters.

At the present time the use of the word processor, I believe there were some people around some while ago to our caucus room indicating that this would be occurring. Could the Minister give us an update on the use of the word processor and when we can expect that we will have the necessary equipment in place? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, in the reconciliation statement it is pointed out that a certain number of functions have been transferred to the Department of Finance.

One of them is the word processing which has been transferred during the past year to the Department of Finance and, therefore, would be under the jurisidiction of the Minister of Finance and that would be where the question would be quite properly asked and answered. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, is it a correct assumption then that all the activities of the word processor now come under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Finance? That no use of the word processing can occur without the approval of the Minister of Finance? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, the complete authority for word processing is under the Minister of Finance's Department. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, then that answer begs some more questions that are probably more serious and that is in the very operation of the Legislature itself and the operation of Hansard. Does that mean that we in this Legislature are subject to the dictates of the Minister of Finance as respect the operation of the Legislative Assembly? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, the Hansard still has the same responsibilities that it had before but rather than co-ordinating with the Department of Government Services as they did in the past they are now co-ordinating with the Information Management Branch under the Department of Finance. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, I always thought that the Legislative Assembly was an authority unto itself and it does cause me some concern to see that the activities of the Legislative Assembly as such now come under the authority of the Minister of Finance or under the jurisidiction of the Minister of Finance as to what it can do and what it can't do. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the function of Hansard has not changed. The only function that has been transferred is the Government Services function and Word Processing which has gone to the Department Finance, Information Management Section.

So, therefore, it has not changed the way that Hansard would operate and certainly it has no effect on this department in terms of how Hansard operates. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)(1) - the Member for Kirkfield Park.ass. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I have a question about the typewriters that are used by the government. Are they planning to upgrade them in any way so that there would be at least correcting typewriters in most of the offices? I think, if I ask this, probably the secretaries will all cheer. I doubt very much if there is more antiquated equipment than in this government building when it comes to typewriters.

I'd ask the Minister just when they're going to get updated? HON. J. PLOHMAN: There is certainly an ongoing assessment of the typewriter needs under this branch as part of the function and the major stumbling block, of course, with any particular branch when you're dealing with the purchases of new equipment, is the amount of money that is allocated to that particular appropriation. So that is the limiting factor in going to new and better equipment in terms of typewriters but I can say that the department is upgrading a number of the current ones.

Instead of replacing them with new, very expensive equipment it is rebuildin:i a number, utilizing them further, extending their life many more years in the service of the government. That is taking place in terms of rebuilding, 225 Selectric typewriters are being rebuilt under this program this year. At the same time new typewriter needs are constantly being assessed and they are being purchased as the money allows. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Further to that, Mr.

Chairman, as far as rebuilding typewriters, and I understand the need to keep costs down but I think that - and I don't know if this applies outside of this building - but in some offices there isn't even one machine that even can type a speech properly, even in Ministers' offices. As far as our own caucus is concerned when I look at the equipment there I think that possibly some of this equipment maybe could be sold to schools to be used. 1273

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 At least people who are putting out the amount of work that is put out in this building alone could have some updated equipment. I think that priorities - when you see how people are working in these offices - I think that maybe it's just because it is secretarial service that no one really takes a good look at it.

I think that the equipment is deplorable and I'm sure that if you go into any office building today that they wouldn't allow their staff to continue to try and put out the amount of work that is put out - I think that the cost saving alone should be looked at here in the amount of work that people are able to do with a machine that helps them do it. I think that maybe this is a poor way to save money. I would like the Minister's comments on looking at this sort of thing. I'll go further. Has anyone discussed even with secretaries maybe what their needs are? I don't think that they go that far.

I think that it is just looked at from people who never handle machines and I think that this is one of the things that certainly should be looked at. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I understand that the secretaries and people in the work stations are consulted on the use of the kinds of machines that they require and certainly that can always be improved but I understand that it is done at this time. I share the concerns.

I think it is very necessary to have good, efficient equipment that works well and is up-to-date, certainly to make the employees efficient, they cannot be efficient if they are using equipment that is not working well, there is nothing that is more frustrating than that.

I appreciate that and I am concerned about it and I can tell you that there is a large replacement in this particular budget year in that appropriation, perhaps it's not sufficient, as much as we would like to see but it certainly is significant in number and I can assure the member that I'll continue to put emphasis on that particular aspect so that we do have efficient offices and I appreciate the concern that's raised by the honourable member. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)(1)-pass; 3.(c)(2) - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Under Other Expenditures, would this be where TV's would be purchased, Mr. Chairman? HON.

J. PLOHMAN: I'm advised not. Mr. Chairman, I'm advised no. MR. D. ORCHARD: Where would that be found? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, what happens is that the individual departments have to allocate a certain amount of money towards the equipment that they need and televisions are certainly no exception. What they would do if they felt there was a need for televisions, they would budget for it, and then the purchasing branch would obtain them at the best price. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well then, would the Minister undertake to find out how many colour TV's were purchased from 1977 to 1981 by the purchasing bureau on behalf of Ministers of Government? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Just to clarify, is the honourable member asking for the number of coloured TV's that were purchased for Ministerial use? If that is the case, during that period of time, my understanding is - if I'm not correct, I would like to have that information at this time - that is, there were 17 colour television sets authorized, and I believe eight Betamax or recording devices from 1977 to 1981. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Would the Minister please check those facts out and provide us with the information? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we'd be glad to double-check those facts. MR. D. ORCHARD: Whilst he's double-checking, if he would provide the Ministers to whom those colour televisions went when they were purc11ased? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I understand the honourable member would like to know to what Ministers those were allocated when they were purchased? MR. D. ORCHARD: All 17 of them. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, I will be glad to get any and all information on that I can. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)(2)-pass - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MS. G. HAMMOND: Is this the place, Mr. Chairman, that I can ask about telephones, or would you prefer it under Telecommunications? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, that would be aprropriate under Telecommunications Branch. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)(2)-pass - the Member for St. Johns. MR. D. MALINOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I would like ask . . . Honourable Member for Pembina, I would like to find out if it will be possible that every MLA should also have a colour TV? Will it be possible to do it? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Just on that point, the Premier has indicated, and it is the feeling that we would not be purchasing further colour television sets. Therefore, it would not be possible under that policy to have colour television sets available to individual MLAs, unless I guess all of the MLAs in the Assembly decided that was a priority. MR. D. MALINOWSKI: Mr. Chairman, the Minister just indicated that it will be impossible to get for us a coloured TV, how about black and white? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would have to know more about the nature of the request and the rationale for it.

I'm certain that the honourable member would like to raise that matter if he felt it was a priority with caucus or the Board of Internal Economy. 1274

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 MR. CH AIRMAN: 3.( c)(2)-pass -the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Earlier, when we opened our remarks on this general department, I made note of the fact that the Deputy Minister is being, I believe, transferred to another department. At this time, I would like to suggest to the Honourable Minister that he use his good offices, and I would suggest that the Deputy Minister be transferred to the Department of Finance. I have to admire his ability to generate funds for his department.

I notice that there's approximately $350,000 more going to be collected from various other appropriations in excess of what he intends to spend this year, so if he can make money like that, I would suggest that he be transferred to the Department of Finance, and the affairs of the province would be much better off. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, any good news I certainly would take credit for, but I would just like to ask the hono urable member exactly what appropriation he's referring to where the department has recovered more than - and exact amounts. Is the honourable member referring to (c)(3)? MR. H.

GRAHAM: I'm comparing the two figures in (c)(2) and (c)(3). Your Other Expe ndit ures total $1,294,000 and you expect to recover $1, 654,000.00. I think it's good business. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, some of those recoveries would relate to the total expenditures in the Office Equipment Branch, which is $1,704,000 , and so we've almost approached full recovery there, but not quite. It has, Mr.

Chairman, improved considerably, as has taken place as well under Central Vehicle Branch, as we move to computerization and a better handle on exactly what is spent and where the money is spent, so that we can recover a greater and greater percentages of it from other departments. That is certainly happ ening in the Office Equipment Branch and the Central Vehicle Branch. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)(2) - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: While I realize the Minister would like to take credit, I think most of the credit is due to the Deputy Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I'll be happy to join in accolades for the Deputy Minister. I'm very pleased with the staff that we have, thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)(2)-pa ss; 3.(c)(3)-pass. The hour bei ng 12: 30, I'm interrupt ing the proceedings of the committee until 2:00 p.m. Committee rise. SUPPLY - AGRIC ULTURE MR. CH AIRMAN, P. Eyler: Order please. We are considering the Estimates of the Depa rtment of Agriculture, Item 5.(

g) Agricultural Training Branch:

(1) Salaries. The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: A question to the Minister, Mr. Chairman, before we proceed. Does the Minister have the information concerning a contract to Mr. V. Scott dealing with organic farming? If so, could he make it available to us? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, staff did not bring the actual contract here, but we have the terms of reference and the entire costing formula in terms of what is required. I am prepared to table that for him and, as well, the background of Mr. Scott. We'll endeavour to bring the actual contract here.

Oh, Mr. Chairman, we did check out legally; we were advised that we were not to table the actual contract, but we have the terms of reference and the breakdown of the budget as to the expenditure within a contract, which I am pleased to table for the honourable members. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, what kind of legal requirement is there that prevents a contract dealing with the expenditure of public funds from being tabled in this House, especially when that contract was entered into under the circumstances that this one appears to have been entered into? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I am advised that our adm inistrative staff checked with Legislative Counsel. It has not been a practice in this House to table the actual contracts but, certainly, the terms of reference and the budgets within the contract are available for the honourable members. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Chairman, I don't intend to pursue that, especially at the moment, but I can assure the Honourable Minister that we will be returning to that and, if necessary, we'll be filing an order for return in the House to gain that, because I think whatever the practice has been, it's improper, if a contract can be entered into by the government and the terms and the details of that contract are not made available to the taxpayers and to the members of the House. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I want to table these two documents, the Research Project 01 . Ecological Agriculture.

The terms of reference were attached to the actual contract which gives the timing and the costing of the salaries of the people involved and the curriculum vitae of V. Scott. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I think I'm correct that we are an Agricultural Training Branch in the area of the 4-H funding, as well as main input to any youth development through the Department of Agriculture. would take place through this particular allocation and, as well, the operation of the Agriculture Extension Centre at Brandon.

In starting my comments today, I want to, first of all, in backing up some of our requests for increasing the funds or some of the reasons for criticizing the funds 1275

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 reduced to the 4-H Program, I want to start out today, Mr.

Chairman, that if every member of the committee wanted to avail themselves of a news release that was put out by the Department of Agriculture, I want to congratulate a constituent of mine, whose name is Scott Day, who is 18 years old from Deloraine, Manitoba, where he has been selected from all the 4-H students of Ma nitoba to go to Washington to a conference there on April 7th, or leaves on April 7th, and he goes through the process of receiving citizenship papers at the Canadian Citizenship Court at Government House in Ottawa and then to participate in the activities in Washington.

It's those kinds of young people, and the development of those kinds of young people, Mr. Chairman, that we're talking about when we're talking about funding 4-H. Mr. Chairman, one has to only use one or two examples like this to show that there are some top­ notch and some quality leadership potential people coming out of rural Manitoba through this particular program. Those are the reasons, Mr. Ch airman, and I'm sure many members on this side of the House - in fact, all members on this side of the House - want to not see the funding for 4-H reduced but, in fact, encouraged to increase it.

I was somewhat a little more confident in the past than I am today in this current Minister of Agriculture's approach to 4-H when he carried on with the proclamation of 4-H Week in Manitoba. It was a recognition of 4-H that was started during the Progressive Conservative term of office that we decided to pay special tribute to the 4-H movement in Manitoba and, in fact, set one week aside as special recognition for that program.

The Minister, whether he did it on a political basis or whether he did it with any true meaning, one would have to now question, because one would think it would be somewhat - I guess hypocritical would probably be unparliamentary - but it would seem somewhat unusual for a Minister of the Crown to, on one hand, say we fully support 4-H and the recognition of it and continue to proclaim one week of 4-H in Manitoba, or one week for 4-H, and then the next meeting that he has with his departmental people say, well, we can reduce the funding for 4-H because it really doesn't have that kind of significance to this government.

Well,' that isn't acceptable, Mr. Chairman. That isn't acceptable at all to the members of the opposition; it isn't acceptable to the majority of urban or rural Manitobans that those kinds of programs be reduced; particularly, in light of the fact, Mr. Chairman, that they are able to find funds to support a Marxist conference in the City of Winnipeg. One only has to ask, where are their priorities? Mr. Chairman, if their priorities lie with supporting the Marxist movement rather than the 4-H movement, then let the public of Manitoba know it and the public of Manitoba will be told it over and over again.

I think that the Minister could somewhat rectify what has happened if he were to change his decision on funding of 4-H and go back to Treasury and find some funds for that particular cause, and I recommend that he do it. I recommend that he do it, Mr. Chairman, because if he doesn't, he gives us no other argument than the one we're using, to tell the people of Manitoba where he stands and what his priorities are. So I make that recommendation to the Minister because we truly are sincere about supporting the youth in this country.

I'm pleased; I said I want to congratulate Scott Day from Deloraine who has certainly made a major achievement. He's been selected from all over Manitoba, from all the 4-H programs, to represent Manitoba in Washington at a 4-H conference, and he goes through the normal process of associating and being involved with obtaining citizenship papers and the other youth in other parts of Canada. So, it's a movement that develops our young people; it develops people that we, not only in rural Manitoba but people from urban Manitoba can be very proud of.

I think everyone of this committee would like to associate themselves in congratulating this young man. Mr. Chairman, I have made that a recommendation to the Minister. I would hope that he would feel fit to introduce an amendment to his Estimates or a resolution to increase the funding for 4-H at this particular time. He indicated in his opening remarks that he had seen fit to reduce 4-H. He didn't substantiate it in any way, but in fact, found fit to reduce it. I would wonder, Mr. Chairman, if he would respond to the question, will he consider increasing the funding to 4-H? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Chairman, I have heard a number of opposition members referring to the 4-H Program. It is true that there are certain areas where we have slowed down. We have eliminated certain funds that were providing for things such as overnight stays and camping and that kind of thing. I want to assure the members opposite that when we went through those items we were very, very careful to ensure that we would not be affecting basic programming. A lot of people on that side of the House are familiar with the 4-H, certainly a lot of people on this side are.

I was involved in a number of 4-H Clubs when I was in my teens in rural Manitoba. You talk about people getting trips - somebody got a trip to Washington, I congratulate the young man. We also, were involved with those kinds of trips. I recall a trip in 1959 to Alberta that I went on. I recall very clearly how we had to raise money in order to do that. There was nothing wrong with that. There was absolutely nothing wrong with that - (Interjection) - the member talks about ... that $7, 000 he's now spent a hundred times over in different ways. He can only spend it once.

But you know, one other way we could have saved a pile of money, would have been for us not to be sitting next Monday, when the civil servants are not going to be here in order to provide us with backup, when the restaurant is closed, an unsubsidized restaurant but it's closed, when we basically have no support system. But when we ask the opposition to maybe take that day off, they said, no, we want to be here.

That means that there is a fair amount of overtime being paid in this place; that means that all of those people who are Members of this Legislature from outside of the City of Winnipeg will get the $40 per diem, not only for Monday ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Member for Arthur, on a point of order. 1276 MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I don't mind the Minister of Finance straying off the particular item that

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 we're dealing with as long as the opposition are going to have a chance to respond to that particular item of debate. MR. CHAIRMAN: Could the Minister of Finance contain his remarks to the 4-H Club? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, I am. I am responding to the Member for Arthur. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Municipal Affairs, on a point of order. HON. A. ADAM: The member is trying to compare.

The Member for Arthur is comparing spending of funding for 4-H, and he is also bringing in the issue of host grants to bring in people to spend money, stay for two or three days to spend money in Winnipeg, which the province gets back indirectly in other forms. He has brought the issue in. He has brought in issues that do not pertain to 4-H, so he shouldn't object now, Mr. Chairman. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, I certainly couldn't have put it better than the Member for Ste. Rose.

Each one of those people who are from outside of the City of Winnipeg will be receiving $160 in per diems for this coming weekend because we are sitting on Monday. If we were not sitting on Monday, they would not be getting that money, because the way our system works, if you have less than four days off, members from outside the City of Winnipeg continue to get that per diem. So we would have saved the taxpayers of Manitoba many thousands of dollars.

Indeed, when we do the calculation with respect to that money and the overtime money, plus factoring in some consideration for the fact that we cannot operate at the same efficiency when we don't have some of our other staff here - you add the whole thing up. For Good Friday, the members of the Conservative Party want $40; for Saturday they want $40; for Easter Sunday, they want $40.00. While the civil servants are off, while everybody else is off, you are saying you want to be here on Easter Monday. Well, that's fine, we could have saved a bunch of money there.

You talk about grants to people coming into the province, we had the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada, members of that party coming to us asking for a host grant, if they were to have their leadership convention here in Winnipeg. Tha t was under consideration by Cabinet. Well, Mr. Chairman, these people are talking about one grant, they've spent it now at least a hundred times. On 4-H itself, we are continuing with the programming, we are committed to the programming.

We believe that when it comes to vacationing that people will have to look for funds in the same way that children in Brandon, in Thompson, in Winnipeg and other areas where the 4-H is not a factor, have to pay for their own holidays. If we are going towards state-paid holidays, then let's have it universal for all the kids in Manitoba, or at least do it on the basis of economics.

If there are areas where there are needs for children; if there are areas where ch ildren aren't getting cultura l or other experiences that we believe are important and they can't afford the holidays, then we should look at that kind of specific targeted programming. But let us not, in these hard times, say that regardless of income, regardless of need for a holiday, that one specific group should get the holiday, nobody else. That is not the way we should be operating government in these times and we will not operate government in that way in these times. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I have never in my life heard come from the lips of a man who is supposed to be the man who controls the purse or the provincial funds than I have just heard from the Minister of Finance. I have never heard such a bunch of drivel and irresponsible reasoning as to why funds are not available for the 4-H, Mr. Chairman. That's like using the argument, Mr. Chairman, if you don't get up in the morning, you don't have to buy your meals. If you stay in bed it doesn't cost you anything to eat. Mr.

Chairman, when we have 54, 000 unemployed people in the province; when we've got hundreds of businesses going out of business day by day under this ill-conceived and put together government, Mr. Chairman, we'd better be here Monday debating the affairs of the province and passing Estimates so that we can help those 54,000 unemployed. The Minister of Finance has the audacity to sit here and blame the opposition for wanting to be here Monday. We are having Friday, Saturday and Sunday off, Mr. Chairman. It is our responsibility to be here Monday.

Don't worry about the $40 a day because I'll tell you, I would like him to substantiate how he can cover a hotel room in Winnipeg, which every one of these members have to pay from rural Manitoba for $40 a day, plus pay his payroll tax, plus pay the increased sales tax, plus, Mr. Chairman, buy all the meals that they has to have when they are in Winnipeg and substantiate a $40 a day expenditure that is costing his treasury to have us here debating the affairs of the province. I never, Mr.

Chairman, I would think that the media would be ill at this kind of an approach by a Minister of Finance who is supposed to be responsible. Mr. Chairman, talk about - if you really want to debate the funds that the Provincial MLAs get, I would like to be here earning it every day of the week when the province is in the kind of economic disarray that it's in under this administration. Wha t are we to do, Mr.

Chairman, wher. - for how many years, I imagine since this Legislature has been opened - that is has sat on the Easter Monday. - (Interjection) - The long-term member for Roblin­ Russell indicates that it always sat on Easter Monday - (Interjection) - because, Mr. Chairman, we believe in representing the people. How many private sector businesses close on Monday, Mr. Chairman? I know many businesses that have to stay open on Monday to serve the farm community, to serve the business community in Winnipeg. Service stations, anyone that wants to do business today you don't, Mr.

Chairman, make a profit with the doors closed and that's been the problem with Manitoba and Canada, we're prepared to sit down, we think the world owes us a living and we try and sit down to collect it. You can't have four days holidays back-to-back and be responsible. I don't care whether you're legislators, 1277

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 whether you're in private business or whether you're a civil servant. How can you justify taking tax money. This Minister of Fina