Manitoba Hansard — 10 April 1979 (Sitting 37B, 31st Legislature, 3rd Session)

31-3-37b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

... .. • ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS VOL. XVII No. 378 28 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker 8:00 P.M. Tuesday, April 10, 1979 Office of the Queen 's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

.. • • Time: 8:00 p.m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, April 10, 1979 SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee come to order. Page 8, Resolution 8, Item 3. To the Members of the Committee , it is my intention to recogn ize the order that we had establ ished before Committee rise. The Member for Ste. Rose . MR. ADAM: Thank you very much , Mr. Chairman . I believe when we adjourned for the dinner hour I was asking the Minister the percentage th at would be required as a down payment on the purchase of land and the Min ister indicated and replied that MACC would carry 90 percent of ...

I would like to ask the Minister, when he says 90 per cent , that the MACC would carry 90 percent, is he referring to the reserve bid price , the appraisal price or the bid price? MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, just to clarify it for the Member for Ste. Rose, the 90 percent that the corporation will lend is under the direct lending program , not under the actual sale of MACC land . They are totally two different things .

The corporation will lend , to those who qualify, after going th rough the loan application and qualifying , they can borrow up to 90 percent of a loan through the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation . It has noth ing to do with the sale of agricultural land through Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation, unless , Mr. Chairman, the individual is a qualified farmer and qualifies under that loan and applies through the Credit Corporation . MR. ADAM: Yes, all right; I want to clarify that a little more. Somebody comes in and expresses a desire to purchase a parcel of land at $50,000.00 . MR.

DOWNEY: He purchases from who, Mr. Chairman? MR. ADAM: From MACC, Crown lands that have been bid . Who are the lands belonging to that you have now for sale? • MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman , the only time there is land offered for sale it is land that has either had a lease drop on it or it has been land that has come back through people who have not made their payments . That's the land that has been advertised for sale. MR. ADAM: That's the land I'm talking about it. MR. DOWNEY: That's the land that you're talking about? MR. ADAM: Yes. MR.

DOWNEY: When that land is tendered for sale on the tender basis I am informed by the management, that there is a deposit required by MACC, by the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation. Now that, I don't believe is 10 percent . The 10 percent that I was referring to was the down payment on the Land Lending Program that we have introduced six months ago . MR. ADAM: Then, if I understand the Minister correctly then, he is saying that it is possible to purchase land that is available for sale from the Crown without any down payment or just the deposit. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, if they reach the reserve . ..

If they are the highest tender after they have put their tender in, and they are the highest tender, they have to submit the deposit with that tender . MR. ADAM: And what is that deposit? 2359

Tuesday, April 10, 1979 MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the initial deposit with the tender is $500.00 . MR. ADAM: So the deposit , Mr. Chairman , is $500.00 . Is the purchaser obligated to pay any further sums of money when he buys the property , outside of the $500.00? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman , he is entitled to pay for the total value of the property. MR. ADAM: He is obligated to pay the entire price of the land , I understand that , under a mortgage agreement , is that correct? 5 MR. DOWNEY: Not necessarily under a mortgage agreement.

He may have to come up with the total amount of money if he doesn 't qualify under a land loan through the MACC . MR. ADAM: Well, if he qualifies for a direct loan or a guaranteed loan , is there a mortgage involved? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, if he qualifies under the direct loan or the comprehensive loan , there would be a mortgage involved. MR. ADAM: And how much will he have to pay initially to obtain this land , outside of the $500.00 deposit? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , the program that I referred to is that the Corporation will lend up to 90 percent of the value of the land . MR.

ADAM: This applies to both the direct loans and the guaran teed loans , is that correct? MR. DOWNEY: That's correct. MR. ADAM: In the event that a purchaser purchased this land and say after two or three years defaults on his agreement , the land will revert back to the state , is that correct? MR. DOWNEY: After proceedings are taken place to collect the payments, that's right . A repossession of the property would take place . MR. ADAM: Could the Minister indicate just how long the purchaser would be carried , say in arrears, how many years would the purchaser be carried? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman , the management indicate to me that they are allowed to go into arrears up to a year and a half. MR. ADAM: Eighteen months in arrears . It could carry for a year and a half in arrears and then it would go into default, is that correct? MR. DOWNEY: That's correct. MR. ADAM: Could the Minister advise , what are the annual payments? MR. DOWNEY: Whatever the amount of money is that is borrowed , amortized over the 30 years or the 31 years or whatever the length of the loan is, plus the interest. MR. ADAM: Yes, is there a standard time for the mortgages , 30 years or 25? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. DOWNEY: Up to 30 years , Mr. Chairman . MR. ADAM: Up to 30 years , so then it could vary . In event that a purchaser would , say, hold the land and pay, meet his responsibilities for three or four years and then go into default , then the land reverts back to the Crown and it is then reoffe red for sale, what would the sale value be then? 2360

·~ • • .. Tuesday, April 10, 1979 MR. DOWNEY: The market value would be established by the open market or the open tende 1· system that we've sold the other land under at this particular time . MR. ADAM: What would the appraisal value be then? MR. DOWNEY: Well, that would be, Mr. Chairman, what would be established by the internal appraisal of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation . MR. ADAM: Well, yes.

Presuming that the purchaser paid $3,000 a year for three years, $15,000 paid on the purchase , under the present criteria that the minister is using to put a reserve bid on what the actual cost to the Crown , would the minister be using the same criteria in this case whereby say one-third of the farm has been paid for, or 20 percent, or 15 percent, would he be using the same criteria in this case? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the amount that was paid on the land would have no effect on the appraisal value of that property , but I don 't know what the policy of the Board of Directors would be.

To be consistent with the policy that I have stated here, we would be recovering the costs to the corporation plus all carrying charges. MR. ADAM: Yes, Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that it's not the MACC that should be making the policy, but it's the government , the minister , unless he's incapable of doing so. It's the government that makes the policy and it's the corporation that carries out that policy .

And is the minister suggesting that if a person pays $15,000 on a piece of property and it comes back to the Crown , is he going to carry on the same policy of putting a reserve bid, that the Crown has of costing? MR. DOWNEY: For the member's benefit the people who would be bidding on that property would not know what the reserve bid was, they would not know what the cost to the corporation plus carrying charges were, and the people of Manitoba would have an opportunity to establish the market price of that property. MR.

ADAM: On the lands that have been tendered and sold and unsold, could the minister provide us with copies of the advertisements in the press , the dates that they were put in, and give us a copy of these advertisements or obtain them for us? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , I've already provided that information . MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I'm not asking the minister if he's provided us with information . I'm asking him if he can provide us with a copy of the advertisement that was put in the papers . (Interjection)- MR.

DOWNEY: It's too late to bid on it, Pete, it's too late to bid on it, so what do you need the copies for? MR. ADAM: Can the minister provide us with copies of the advertisements in the press so that we can satisfy ourself just what kind of advertisements they were, and was there a reserve bid? He has mentioned that there's no reserve bid mentioned on the advertisement. Is there anything on the advertisement that says or states that the highest or any tender not necessarily accepted . MR. DOWNEY: That land was tendered by the Manitoba Agriculture Credit Corporation.

I've indicated to the members where it was advertised, where the land was bulletined, and I said I believe it was in the Winnipeg Free Press, the Winnipeg Tribune, the Manitoba Co-operator , the local newspaper, there was an ad hung up in all Municipal Offices, all Manitoba Agricultural offices and all Agricultural offices. MR. ADAM: Would the minister be able to provide us with copies and the dates that they were inserted in the different newspapers, or were they all inserted at the same time, all in one group? MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I have indicated for the member where they've been advertised . 2361

Tuesday, April 10, 1979 I'm sure that they were public and open tenders that he would be able to find that information on his own . MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, could the minister give us the date that these lands were advertised for sale? Would he be able to give the date? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , that could be provided, I am sure to facilitate the member's interest . MR. ADAM: The minister, I understand that he has agreed to provide the dates that these advertisements were put in the papers.

Could the minister tell us now whether or not there was on the advertisement that the lowest or the highest, or any tender not necessarily accepted? MR. DOWNEY: No, I cannot indicate that at this time, Mr. Chairman. MR. ADAM: So he's not sure whether that was on; that 's the normal practice, I understand , to have on any tender, on any tender that at the bottom there always usually is a notation that any tender is not necessarily accepted , and I just wanted to see if the minis ter could provide that . He has everything else there .

He has all the newspapers, he doesn 't have the dates that they were Is the minister sure that he doesn't have the dates there to indicate what dates they are? MR. DOWNEY: Well, I don 't have them right here with me, Mr. Chairman. MR. ADAM: Could the minister provide them for us tomorrow or could he find out for us tomorrow? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , if the Member for Ste. Rose has difficulty in finding them, I can see if I can accommodate him. MR.

ADAM: Now , I think we've established that any defaults on any of these lands sold, if any of the purchases or payments go into default, they will revert back to the Crown - both the comprehensive and the direct loan, I want to make that very clear. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , for the clarification of the Comm ittee and myself, is he referring to the loans that are made through the Manitoba Agriculture Corporation on direct and comprehensive loans on any property that money is lent to, to farm people . MR. ADAM: No. Just on the land purchases . On the land sales. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman , I have no indication at this time that the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation is in fact lending money to those people who are buying those properties. MR. ADAM: We have to assume that the Minister is going all over the country sending fieldmen out , coercing people who are leasing land now to purchase them immediately. That is what we are assuming, and we assume it because we have had reports and even phone calls in this regard . So now I want to ask the Minister or the Chairman if he could contain the Member for Pembina for a few minutes , we can continue asking the questions. Mr.

Chairm an, I would like to ask the Minister now if there has been any communication with people who are now on the Land Lease Program encourag ing them to exercise their option to purchase , because this is the reports that we are receiving from the rural areas . MR. DOWNEY: Not to my knowledge , Mr. Chairman . MR. ADAM: Would the Minister undertake to find out from MACC if any of the field staff have been out asking farmers, young farmers who are on the Land Lease Program , to use their option in regard to the forgivable portion of the interest rates, and so on? Would the Minister undertake to investigate that?

MR. DOWNEY: It would be my intent that that would be the freedom of the person who is farming the land to exercise that option if they so desire . 2362

,. • Tuesday, April 10, 1979 MR. ADAM: Yes, I understand, yes; that's why it was set up originally in the first place so tha t he could take that option if he wanted to, but I am just asking the Minister if any field staff have been out asking farmers to hurry up and get with it, and buy this land before we take it away from you, or make it so unattractive that you will have to buy it or else you won't be able to stay in business . Mr. Chairman, what are the interest rates at the present time? I believe there is a subsidized interest rate on the leased land .

I am talking about the leased land, not on the land sold but on the land that is now being leased with an option to purchase . I believe there was a time period when the interest rates were subsidized at 5 percent or whatever, and then there was, I beiieve , something in the agreement that these rates would be renegotiated . What are the rates at the present time? Have any been renegotiated? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, at the present time the interest for the first three years is 5 percent , the following year 6-% and the fifth year 8 percent.

Then it goes for an internal appraisal with the · department, and then can be readjusted at the 6 percent of the new appraisal. MR. ADAM: On April 5th the Minister stated that the lands that reverted back to the Crown would not be state farms, the name that he likes to put on the Land Lease Program as being state farms, and on April 5th he stated that any lands that would be coming back to the Crown under a default of payment, lands that had been sold and it reverted back to the Crown, that these would not be state farms, that they would be farms owned by MACC. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR.

ADAM: I think he wanted to have it both ways. I'm sorry , Mr. Chairman, the Minister didn 't want to answer so I . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste . Rose. MR. ADAM: The Minister didn 't seem as though he wanted to answer that question, but I think he wanted to have it both ways: he wanted to say that the lands that were under the lease programs, that was state farms, and that the lands that would revert back to the Crown through the loans would not be state farms. And he can't have it both ways. The lands that are now under lease are under lease from MACC. Mr.

Chairman, the Member for Pembina has been constantly interfering in the debate and not too often willing to put his name down to be recognized as the speaker. MR. ORCHARD: Pete, you are taking too much time. I never get on the list. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, some of the members opposite are very upset about the Land Lease Program. I am wondering if they would be upset with the Ontario government leasing out thousands of lots, residential lots. Thousands of lots are being leased on a long-term basis. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please .

Would the member try and contain himself within the area that we're dealing with, Item 3, Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation. The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, we're talking about state ownership and some of the members " MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Could we have one speaker at a time. The Member for Ste. .. Rose. MR. ADAM: The members are saying that the Land Lease Program is a state program, Mr .

Chairman, and I just want to say that the good free enterprise Tory government in Ontario is leasing thousands of residential lots on a long-term basis, and that's state lots. -(Interjections)- By the way, Mr. Chairman, they also lease lands . But anyway I would like to ask the Minister who makes up the complement of the MACC Board at this time . Mr. Chairman, I would like to know who sits on the Board, the MACC Board, at the present time. Could the Minister give us the names of the members of the Board? 2363

Tuesday, April 10, 1979 MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , the Chairman of the Corporation is Richard Klassen. -(Interjections)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Honourable Minister. MR. DOWNEY: The Board members are Richard Klassen, Harold Clement, Bob Manns, Don Fraser and Grant McAusland . MR. ADAM: How many members are there on the Board? MR. DOWNEY: I believe I said five. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste . Rose. -(Interjection)- Order please, order please . The Honourable Minister . MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman , the Board Members are Richard Klassen, Chairman , Bob Manns , Grant McAusland , Harold Clement and Don Fraser . MR. ADAM: Would any member of the board be eligible to obtain loans from MACC? MR. DOWNEY: I would think , Mr. Chairman , that it would be undesirable for them to obtain a loan through the Corporat ion. I don't think it would be a good policy of the Corporation . MR. ADAM: The minister is waffling a bit on that question . He said it would not be a good policy , you know he's not stating a clear position on this question. He is waffling from side to side, he's going around in circles .

We'd like to know , Mr. Chairman , whether Members of the Board can obtain loans. I'd like to know if the Members of the Board can make loans or apply for loans. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I would not want to get involved with the Human Rights Commission in saying that they were denied a loan, but I think it would be poor policy for the government or the MACC to provide a loan for a Board of Directors. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, could the minister advise if any of the present Board Members have ever applied for a loan to MACC? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman , the question was, have any of the Board Members applied for a loan? I would have to check that out, I would assume probably they have applied for loans in different places , most agricultural operations do have to apply for loans in Manitoba . MR. ADAM: That's all I have at the present time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: I wasn't here last night , but I was here Thursday last when we first got onto this particular resolution dealing with the affairs of MACC, and we haven 't moved much forward since that time, Mr. Chairman .

I understand I missed a considerable amount of debate on the question last night, when government responsibilities took me to the Community of Dauphin . But I think , Mr. Chairman , that there is possibly , you know , an opportune time to put the debate that has been going on now for some four days on this question, into some perspective .

And, really the elements that we should be considering is just precisely what did the present government and the then-opposition say about this particular activity and program of MACC - before the election, for those of us that were in the House at that time , during the election, and what we're saying now about it, in fact what the Minister is carrying out , the policy of the present government in this particular area. Now , Mr.

Chairman , I need not remind the former Minister of Agricult ure, who suffered through considerab le numbers of hours on debates on this particular question, and the Hansards of the day are filled with our opposition at that time , as an opposit ion party , to the business of government purchasing farm agricultural land. Mr. Chairman, that same message was brought home very clearly to all rural Manitobans from all platforms during the elections of two Septembers, Octobers , ago. MR. USKIW: You mean a big lie. 2364 ..

.. Tuesday, April 10, 1979 MR. ENNS: No, it was not a lie, Mr. Chairman ; it was not a lie. I'm speaking about the commitmen t, the promise, that the now government, the now Minister , made to the people of Manitoba that we are here to represent as to what we would do should the people of Manitoba , the farmers of Manitoba , give us the responsibility of managing the affairs in the course of the next four years in this

part icular area. Mr. Chairman , I know it is particularly irritating to members opposite that this government has a way of fulfilling election promises that probably ranks at the top of the list of any governments across Canada . Now we have said precisely what we are going to do in many areas. We have said we would try to reduce taxes and we have reduced taxes . We have said we would do away with state taxes and we have done away with state taxes.

We have said that we would control government growth and we have done that; we would contro l the growth of bureaucracy and we have done it, in most instances through attrition or through simply not renewing programs that we didn't think were prov iding the service for the dollar paid . I acknowledge that in some instances it wasn't that easy and harder decisions had to be made and actual separations of employees took place. And, Mr.

Chairman, we also said on this specific item, that if elected, we would take the government out of the business of buying farmlands and that is essentially what we have done and what this Minister has done. Furthermore what we said, and we made it very clear, we would do everything in our power to put these farmlands so acquired , these 200,000 acres plus, so acquired, back into the hands of privately owned farm families . Mr. Chairman, that is the election promises of the government of the Minister that we are now discussing his Estimates about.

And for the opposition to now all of a sudden raise the question and all of a sudden get excited about the direction that this government is going in, it means they are merely venting their frustrations that in effect we are keeping yet another election promise .

And when the Member for Inkster stands up in the House and says: "Are we going to cont inue the option of young Manitobans to farm on publicly owned farmlands and create new options ?" The answer is unequivocably no, precisely in the same way that if I asked the New Democrats what option are they going to give should they return to powe r, what role will Royal Assurance Company of Canada play in the automobile insurance business in Manitoba , and their answer would be unequivocably no. So let's understand that , gentlemen ; let's understand that , gentlemen . There is a question of basic policy . Mr.

Chairman , the Honourable Member for Inkster is present and I remember only too well in one of his more benign and benevolent moments in the House, when he spoke prophetically about the fact , and he acknowledged, that indeed - and they were in power ; they were in the seats of power and responsibility at the time - but he acknowledged , being the reasonably fair man that he is, that the day could well come that another administration, indeed even the Conservatives might one day again assume power. And lo, Mr. Chairman, it has happened. But what did he say on that particular day? He was not that worried, Mr.

Chairman . Do you know why, Mr. Chairman? And this is all recorded in Hansard and I know I may be paraphrasing the honourable member, but he'll forgive a slip of the word one way or another.

But his general response was in that particular speech was that he wasn't concerned because he was satisfied that in performing the functions in the four years, or eight years , that my friend socialists had as a member, as government, that they would move society three, four, five steps to the left and that when the occasion came that another government, a Conservative government came to office , we wouldn't have the guts to move it back or to move it in a different direction . And, Mr.

Chairman , what is bothering honourable members opposite, and what is exercising them so often is that we have not only got the guts, but we are doing it and we are doing it with dispatch and we're doing it in a hurry because we believe that that is our commitment , that is our mandate. Mr. Chairman, we have, we believe, the mandate to do that. Mr. Chairman, no Minister of Agriculture, certainly not the last Minister of Agriculture can challenge this Minister of Agriculture's mandate in doing what he is doing . -(Interjection)- Mr.

Chairman, my honourable friend, the Member for Lac du Bonnet, he should be the last to talk about a mandate from rural Manitoba . Mr. Chairman, let's put this on the record , there has never been another Minister of Agriculture who has poured that kind of public money into rural Manitoba , and in one particular segment if I may want to mention it, it's the segment that I am involved in, in the beef industry , Mr. Chairman . Mr. Chairman, at the same time that he was pouring that money in, he was prepared to, with the wave of a pen, literally piss $10 million down the tube.

And we are supposed to have an alert press that worr ies about how often hospital sheets get changed , that worries about how many strips of bacon are being fed, where 's our Attorney-General that worries about jails not being built , and this Minister of Agriculture drifts $10 million away - the former Minister of Agriculture - $10 million away, and we are engaging in a big debate here and trying to challenge and trying to score 2365

Tuesday, April 10, 1979 some Brownie points with our Minister about whether or not the Crown is getting its full appraised value return. The Minister's policy is clear. The Minister is clear; he is saying that we will get back every cent that the Crown has in the acquisition of this land. Mr. Chairman, I'm far more radical than that. I would like to give it away because I believe it is in the interests of having land held in freehold tenure by private farmers.

It is that important to me that I will encourage the Minister , I will do everything possible to the Department of Agriculture to encourage that direction, that we believe that we have a mandate for. -(lnterject ion)- Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet talks about . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Could we have one speaker at a time. The Member for Lakeside. MR.

ENNS: He can say what he wants but the fact of the matter is that in the course of their government, even though when the 1977 election became imminent, they then chose to underline the fact that indeed there was a purchase option in that Land Lease Program. But the truth of the matter is, how much land acquired by the Crown under the NDP was ever returned to the private farmer? How much land was returned to them into their private holdings? -(Interjection)- Mr. Chairman, that is not true.

The previous administration was quite prepared to invest many millions of dollars to pursue an agricultural policy of their making. Now, Mr. Chairman, is there anything wrong for this Minister and for this administration to pursue the agricultural policies that we think we have a mandate for? Well, I have that acknowledgement, at least if not from the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, but from the Honourable Member for Inkster , that there is a responsibility on the government of the day to carry out those responsibilities. Mr.

Chairman, the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, you know, talks about and questions what kind of policy does the Conservative Party have, does the Conservative Government have with respect to agriculture. What kind of overall policy does this Minister of Agriculture have with respect to agriculture? Well, Mr. Chairman, the Minister knows full well the kind of policy direction that he wishes to take, and most Manitobans, most Canadians and most North Americans know the kind of agricultural policy that we wish to maintain in this particular area of government policy making. Mr.

Chairman, surely the responsibility of this Minister of Agriculture and this government is to maintain the capacity to produce the necessary food that we have built up in the past, that we have at the present , and to ensure that that capacity of food production continues in the future, Mr. Chairman. That, in essence, should be and ought to be the goal of any Ministry of Agriculture in this country , should be the goal of any Ministry of Agriculture around this world.

Unfortunately, agriculture far too often gets confused with grand and grandiose social programs and they tend to want to make the Department of Agriculture another Department of Social Assistance rather than develop sound agricultural policies and in that kind of a mix, agricultural production usually suffers . Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet humps and shakes his head but, Mr.

Chairman, you know if we want to talk about the delivery and about the performance of the agricultural industry thus far, then it surely has to be one of the brightest areas of achievement in the western industrialized and the western free nations of this world. Mr. Chairman, if our housebuilders or our construction industry were anywhere near as efficient as the farmers and the agricultural industry, then our citizens would not be paying 30 percent for shelter as they are now , as compared to 17 or 18 percent for food of their disposable income.

No other country in the world, perhaps other than the United States, bests us in that particular regard. Seventeen or 18 percent of Canadians' disposable income is used to maintain themselves with food . Mr. Chairman, you know, when the hungry of the world send out SOSs, when there is famine in drought-stricken Africa or in strife-torn Bangladesh, you don't see the countries with the orderly state-controlled agricultural industr ies first off with their boat loads of wheat and supplies . Where does that help, where does that food, where does that grain come from?

It comes from Canada; it comes from the United States; it comes from Argentina ; it comes from Australia, wherever you have the kind of system that involves independent, freeholding farmers operating their land . That is the kind of policy direction that this Minister is going to pursue. That is the kind of support that he is going to get from his caucus and his Cabinet Ministers and, Mr . Chairman , without any doubt - look around the honourable members who represent 95 percent of rural Manitoba, that obviously is the direction that Manitoba farmers want us to take . Mr. Chairman , there will be mistakes made .

I think that it is perfectly legitimate for this committee to examine diligent ly and questioni ngly the meth od used in the disposal of this kind of Crown sales. 1 think there is room for a good deal of honest debate as to whether or not a particular system 2366

.. .. ,.. Tuesday, April 10, 1979 of disposal should be used or not, whether or not eligibility clauses should be entered into it. All these matters are subject for debate, but that hasn't been the debate to date. The debate to dat€' has been the challenge to the Minister of selling any land and I want to make it very clear to honourable members opposite that that is our avowed policy, a policy that we will carry through with dispatch, with courage, because we believe in it.

It is far more important whenever we get home to our constituents, and I remind all members opposite that we get home to far more farm constituents than the honourable members opposite do, they give us the same message . They give us the same message. -(lnterjection)- Mr. Chairman, I think we can agree to disagree on this particular subject. The honourable members opposite can be charged with a great deal of hypocrisy in this particular area. The honourable members can be charged with a great deal of inconsistency in this question .

The honourable members do not believe for one minute that any land that's so purchased by MACC will ever be returned to a private farmer. Well, Mr. Chairman, what is the argument of the honourable gentlemen opposite? When we go into the other area, what is their argument with the whole question of CFI, for instance . They say that if the public puts up the money, then the people should own it. Well now, why would you then change courses in midstream and say, if you put up a half-a-million dollars to help me get established on a farm , why would you then say I should own the farm? MR.

GREEN: Because you said you can pay it back . MR. ENNS: No, no, now you're equivocating. I ask the honourable member, when he was responsible for MDC, about the Simplot deal. Even though Simplot paid back every cent that was loaned by the public, with interest , before the time, and he stood up in the House, and the Hansard records it, that Simplot should be owned by the public of Manitoba simply on the basis that -(Interjection)- The honourable gentlemen opposite cannot have it both ways. They'd like to be the principal debaters of this thing. They'd like to debate -(Interjection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please.

Could we have one speaker at a time? The Member for Lakeside . Order please - one speaker at a time . The Member for Lakeside . MR. ENNS: I hear from the sidelines the comment "Certainly the public should own Simplot - who put up the money?" Well, by the same token, certainly who should own the farmlands - who put up the money? Who put up the money? Who put up the money for the 200,000 acres? Mr. Chairman, the impression and the knowledge of honourable members opposite - because I do believe them occasionally - I do believe them when they speak of fundamental socialist policies. And when Mr.

Green says, and indicates , that's he's satisfied that we will live with an interruption every once in a while, every four years or eight years, but he will move society to the left , and to the left, and to the left, he means and he hopes that when an interruption such as the Conservative administration does come in, that we will not have the courage to move in our direction - to move in our direction. -(lnterjection)- Mr. Chairman, what that indicates to me too ... A MEMBER: You're going to have to give it away. MR.

ENNS: ... what that indicates to me too , in that particular instance in land , that he can't have it both ways - that he can't have it both ways. That indeed he wanted to keep on moving it to the left , and to the left. Mr. Chairman, that means the kind of opposition, the kind of opposition that the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet and the New Democratic Party generally is putting up today, is generally putting up today, only reinforces, Mr.

Chairman, if there was some Doubting Thomases during election times past, '73 and '77, if there were some Doubting Thomases who suggested that perhaps the Conservative propaganda was exaggerated when we talked about state farms, something like that, the very thing that is happening the last three or four days in this Committee proves, underwrites, underlines, the truth of the positions that were put forward by the Conservative Party during those election times. Their resistance, their challenging this Minister in the sale of surplus lands underlines precisely, precisely what . . . A MEMBER: Giveaways, not sales.

MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman , what are we talking about giveaways? What are we talking about giveaways? Goodness gracious, we're talking about the Corporation retaining or returning to the 2367

Tuesday, April 10, 1979 Crown all their costs plus. Now, Mr. Chairman, if there are instances where that hasn't taken place, then I think it's perfectly fair game for the Minister to be called on the carpet, for him to be examined, for him to have very good answers why in some instances total recovery wasn't made. That's a legitimate question of the debate . But that hasn't been the tenor of the debate; that hasn't been the tenor of the debate . The debate has been the charge that individua l parcels of land are being sold , that they're being sold to Conservatives - well, Mr.

Chairman , you know, that does present the Minister with an extreme problem . Eight out of ten farmers are Conservatives. And if we intend to sell 200,000 acres of land in the next little while, I'll be damned if he's not going to have to sell it to a Conservative every once in a while . So that is a problem for the Honourable Minister . That is a problem for the Honourable Minister. But, Mr. Chairman, I don't want to be put off track, because that is only getting back to Position A that we were at before this gang of Socialists took over some eight , nine years ago. And that wouldn't satisfy me, Mr.

Chairman, any more than it would satisfy the Honourable Member for Inkster , because I'm not satisfied at just staying at Position A. Just as he has a vision, and has a belief , that over the long haul he will be instrumental and influential in moving society constantly to the left, I also have a vision, Mr. Chairman. And that's why, Mr. Chairman, we intend , and we make no bones about it, to sell many more thousands of acres of land; lands that up to now have not been considered for sale. Crown lands - lands that have never been entitled to any private freeholder. And let 's put that on the record .

Let's put that on the record . I'm waiting for it, and we are prodding and pushing the Minister and his colleague, the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources , under whose responsibility some of this additional Crown land lies, to provide and come forward with that policy . Because , Mr. Chairman, I am concerned that time is running out for us in that sense. I want to meet my election promises . I want to meet my commitment to the people that put me in this office , into this House. So, Mr.

Chairman, far from being concerned about the kind of debate that we've had here in the last three or four days, let me assure the honourable members of this committee , let me assure the Honourable Minister of his continued support , of his caucus and his Cabinet, with respect to the direction that he is moving, which is so obviously in tune, which is so obviously in tune, with the vast majority of rural people in Manitoba. Mr.

Chairman, I have listened this afternoon , and today , and I repeat , I was in the Session Thursday last when we debated this question , or when we started to debate this question till the hours of 12:30 or 1:30, somewhere in that area; it's become patently obvious, it's become patently obvious, that the honourable members opposite -(Interjection)- No, Mr. Chairman . It's patently obvious that the honourable members wish to demonstrate or to vote against this particular issue. I wish to give them that occasion by moving, Mr. Chairman, that the question be put. MR.

CHAIRMAN: We have a mot ion on the floor that this question be now put . -(lnterjection) Order please . The Membe r for Inkster on a point of order. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Chairman. If you are intending to put that motion , there is no such motion. If you wish to close debate on a particular item , the Rules specify how that can be done. But a motion that the question be put , Mr. Chairman , is not a motion which is acceptable in a committee , or in the House, or anywhere else. We'll debate the question. MR.

CHAIRMAN: To the members of the committee , under the heading Item 63, under the Rules, 63 (1): The previous question , until it is decided, precludes all amendments of the main question, and shall be put in the following words , that this question be now put. Item (2): Where the previous question is resolved in the affirmative , the original question shall be put forthwith without any amendment or debate . Under

Section 64, Subsection (14): Where the motion for the previous question is moved in a Committee of Supply under a

section of the Committee of Supply, the motion is not debatable . -(Interjection)- The question is not debatable .. A COUNTED VOTE was taken , the result being as follows : Yeas 16. Nays 5. MR. CHAIRMAN: I declare the motion carried . Resolution 8: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,837,900 for Agriculture, the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation - pass - the Member for Inkster . Order please . The question has been put. All those in favour . Orde r please . The question was just put and was carried . There is no debate . Now the question itself, all those in favour . A COUNTED VOTE was taken , the result being as follows : Yeas 16. Nays 6. 2368

Tuesday, April 10, 1979 MR. CHAIRMAN: I declare the motion carried . Resolution 9: Item 4. Agricultural Production Division-pass; 4.(a)1 - the Member for Inkster . MR. GREEN: I wish to speak to this question which relates to the providing of technical and specialized support services to farmers and regional extension staff, for purpose of enhancing the efficiency and growth of production of Manitoba 's agricultural sector . Mr.

Chairman , 1 believe that the policies of the existing government are going to make it very difficult for technical assistance with regard to Manitoba's agricultural population and the efficiency and growth of their production as a result of the way in which thi s government is eliminating the program , which permitted farmers in the provi nce of Manitoba to have an option, Mr. Chairman, of renting land from the publ ic in such a way as to be able to get on the farm , Mr. Chairman, without an outlay of capital which drained all of their resources and caused them to be in a position that only , Mr. Chairman.

People with tremendous resources could enter the area of farming , with the result, Mr. Chairman, that numerous young people will never be able to obtain the opportunities that were available . . . -(Interjection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . To the members of the committee , could we have one speaker at a time? The Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I wish to deal with the question and I wish to say that this question relates to the other items th at have been brought into the department and which I suggest , Mr.

Chairman, there was an attempt to close debate and I still advise the chairman of the committee , that I believe that a motion that tee previous question be now put, unless, Mr. Chairman, the rule change in the past two years is a rule change which permitted such a procedure to take place , that if that rule change was such a procedu re, then we have passed that particular item. But , Mr. Chairman, I don't wish to deal with the ruling because that has been made and that has been proceeded on. The quest ion that I now wish to deal with, is the Agricultural Production Division and in doing so, Mr.

Chairman , I cannot help but comment on some of the remarks that were made by the last speaker, Mr. Chairman, who had the great courage to make a very provocative speech, culminated by a motion that the question be put, in the hope that it could not be replied to. That is the kind of debating technique, Mr. Chairman, which proves without a shadow of a doubt, that the person who is speaking believes , Mr. Chairman , that he will be successfully challenged, unless he somehow terminates the debate after he has spoken . That is the most cowardly form of debating , Mr. Chairman, that has ever been taken and Mr.

Chairman , is not becoming of the Honourable Member for Lakeside, who normally when he is on firmer ground, willing to hear an answer to what he has to say, normally has sufficient conviction in what he is putting forward , to permit it to be answered . But what we know with regard to the member in this particular case, is that we know that he was talking rubbish . Now, Mr.

Chairman, when I told you at the last meeting of this committee and used words which he taught me in debate in the last session , when I used it, you said , "I wish the member would watch his language," and I said, " I learned it from the Minister of Highways ." He has now added the other part of human waste to his vocabulary and introduced it at committee. But nevertheless, Mr. Chairman, the fact is that the member in making his remarks, did so in a way which he apparently is entitled to do.

He can now move the next question be put and the next question be put, and I suppose that that would be a way in which the Conservative Party MR. CHAIRMAN: I refer the member to Item Administration Salaries . MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, I am debating 4.(a)(1) as I heard 3. being debated without interruption on your part and I'm going to ask for the same consideration. I'm going to say, Mr.

Chairman, that this item, Agricultural Production Division , that the policies that the government has followed and has just passed with respect to the availability of lands to farmers in the province of Manitoba or would-be farmers, and I'm not talking about only those who can make the highest bid on land which is being given by the government, or if they know that there is an inside track, make a bid which they know will not have to be high , and they will still get the land, will, Mr. Chairman , cause the Agricultural Production Division to suffer .

Because now, we are going to be dealing iith what was the problem as I heard it from many farmers, Mr. Chairman, in the 1960s and indeed in the early '70s; that first of all, there will be a cost price squeeze and secondly, the tendency will be for fewer and fewer people to till the land , that the Conservative policy in 1968 was to knowingly 2369

Tuesday, April 10, 1979 reduce the number of farmers in the province of Manitoba , as evidenced by their TED report, from, I think, 38,000 to a target of something like 30,000 and I say that the last item , Mr. Chairman , and as it relates to the next item is an attempt to meet that target . They had an eight year problem, whereby they weren 't able to run headlong into making sure that the land wound up into the hands of fewer and fewer private individuals and that the agricultural depopulation continued at a satisfactory pace . So they have now passed an item to quicken the pace of agricultural depopulation .

Now, Mr. Chairman , the honourable minister says that this is simply keeping the promises of the Conservative administration when they went on the election trail in 1977. Mr. Chairman, as a matter of fact , the reverse is true . The fact is that in 1973, when the Member for Lac du Bonnet and in 1969, when the Member for Lac du Bonnet was being called a communist , and when they were attempt . . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , on a point of order please. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside on a point of order . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairma n, the Honourable Member for Inkster is stretching the rules beyond all recognition .

The item before us deals specifically with the salaries associated to the Technical Support Assistance programs with the Department of Agr iculture . We're not now on election trails, we're not now in leadership fights or anything else, and I would ask you, Mr. Chairman , to either ask the honourable member to contain his remarks with respect to the resolution before us, or indeed, rule him out of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. James on a point of order . MR. MINAKER: Mr.

Chairman , on the same point of order , if we looked at Item B.(a), which we ·~ .. dealt with that dealt with the program by the government , that dealt strictly with the program by J the governmen t. The item that the Honourable Membe r for Inkster is now dealing with , deals with a technical and specialized support service . It doesn 't deal with a government poogram, so it 's out of order. -(Interjection)- It's a government policy program we dealt with last , we're now dealing with a government support service or technical and specialized service and not with the policy of a government. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet on the same point of order . MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman , the heading that we are dealing wit h suggests that we can debate technical and specialized support services . The Member for Inkster is talking about the fact that you have not pro vided for certain support services that would allow peop le who do not wish to own land to operate a farm in Manitoba . That's what he's talking about ; that under this item there is no provision for that to happen , Mr. Chairman . That's what he's arguing . MR. GREEN: I'm astonished , Mr.

Chairman, that these people who have great conv iction and want the world to know exactly where they stand and where we stand , would take the position that the ~ world should know where they stand , but they should vote out of order any speeches as to where we stand. 1 have read - (Interjection)- Mr. Chairman, the member says that that's fair and I repeat that the Conservative posit ion is fight fair . Let us state our position but do not let the opposition state their posit ion. " Promotes specialization and expansion in agriculture and where practicable . . . " - I'm talking to the point of order .

Am I not permitted even to speak to the point of order? "Promotes specialization and expansion in agricul ture , and where practicable , encourages and stimulates product ion of new products ," and I say, Mr. Chairman , that that function has been impaired and 1 want to talk about that function . And when the Member for Lakeside says that there is nothing in here about the election trail or campaign promises , I want to know where the election trail or campaign promise s comes under Item 3., where I heard 15 minutes of the elect ion trail and campaign promises. -(Inter jection) - Well , Mr.

Chairman , then it is a big part of Item 4. and , Mr. Chairman , 1 ask for the right to continue and I intend to coniinue. - (Interject ion)- That' s right. That' s right. A MEMBER: He's out of order . MR. GREEN: No, Mr. Chairman . 2370

Tuesday, April 10, 1979 MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. I would like to direct all members of the committee that there is a certain amount of latitude and a certain amount of gray area here. I'd like to ask all members to try and get as close to the item under consideration as possible. The Member for Inkster . MR. GREEN: I promise to do that. " Supports the efforts of rural Manitobans to improve their quality of life," and if you, Mr. Chairman , find anything that I have said to be out of the ambit of that particular phrase , then I will , Mr. Chairman , with greatest respect lose my respect for the Chair .

Because what it says here is, " Supports the efforts of rural Manitobans to improve their quality of life," and that's all I have been talk ing about and that's what the Conservatives do not wish to hear about . And that's why they make a mot ion to close debate after they have finished speaking about the courage that they have in putting forth their position and that is why they say, when you are speaking about the rural Manitobans , the efforts of rural Manitobans to improve their quality of life, that you are out of order, Mr. Chairman . Is anything so unheard of, as that suggestion?

And that I'm to be ruled out of order , according to the dictates of the Member for St. James. Now, I intend to continue, Mr. Chairman, -(Interjection)- well' the Chair ruled that I'm to go and be very careful in this gray area which I undertake to do. I undertake to be as careful as the Member for Lakeside and I asked to be judged by the same standards . Mr. Chairman , I want to deal with the collective farm . -{Interjection)- Fine, if the honourable member wishes me to deal with the collective farms , I will say, Mr.

Chairman , that there are a healthy number of good Manitoba citizens who are good farmers in this province and good citizens of our province, who are operating perhaps the best collective farms in the world , here in the province of Manitoba - not in Russia - but in the province of Manitoba; and they happen to be cousins of my friend, the Minister of Highways , who probably -{Interjection)- Mr. Chairman, the fact is that these people are perhaps the most perfect communists in the world, is a problem for my friend , the Minister of Highways , but nevertheless he has to live with it.

And not say that a person - this is what he said - that the best way and the way in which it is inevitable that the best farmlands will be conducted is by the individua l owner operator. Mr. Chairman , I have seen individual owner operators in different places, and I've seen people who operate farmlands communally , and I can tell you, Mr. Chairman , that in those areas that I have seen it, that the communal farms have done better . But nobody is suggesting communal farms in the province of Manitoba.

Those who want to run them have a perfect opportunity of doing so; and the member is right , that the government will not take it away from them;bbut it certainly throws the line to those who say that only the indivi dual owner operator can operate his land , because that is false by the standards that we know directly in the province of Manitoba . Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Minister of Highways , who does not wish to be answered; who does not wish his great courageous statements to be answered ; said that the vote in Manitoba reflected our position on the Land Lease Program. Well, Mr.

Chairman, the former Minister of Agriculture was much more articulate about the fact that there should be this type of program available in the province in 1973, than he was in 1978 and 1977, and as a matter of fact he did very well in 1973, very well; and there are numerous New Democrats throughout this province did very well. And if my honourable friend wants to know where the impairment came - I said it yesterday , the member wasn't here - it's exactly the compromise on the program that's created a problem and confusion , not the fact that the program was in existence, but that the program was withdrawn from .

And that instead of making sure that that land was continually available, we introduced an amendment which made an option available which could have resulted in the program not existing . And I think, Mr. Chairman, if one wants to look for the impairment, that the Minister of Agriculture nor did any of our rural candidates get anything from that option - they lost votes - they didn 't gain votes. And the Minister of Highways, when he says that the Conservative government is keeping its elected promises and has disappointed me by not standing pat , I want to put that to the Conservatives .

What were the biggest issues, Mr. Chairman , upon which he separated socialism from the free enterprise system? Mr. Chairman , they were: Medicare . .. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. For my benefit, could the Member for Inkster where this relates to 4.(a)(1), Salaries? The Member for Inkster . MR. GREEN: The question No. 4, as it relates to the first three paragraphs , including: "Supports the efforts of rural Manitobans to improve their quality of life," which I've discussed, and 1 was then, Mr.

Chairman, digressing into what was discussed for a full 15 to 20 minutes by the Minister of Highways , relating to the philosophical differences between this government on these questions 2371

Tuesday, April 10, 1979 and the other government on these questions. And the Minister of Highways has said - let it be clear that this is what he has said - that he is going to dispossess as quickly as it is possible to do so, all of the people of the Province of Manitoba of those trial lands that we now own, and put them into the hands of private individuals. -(Interjections)- MR. ENNS: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

Obviously the honourable member is not going to abide by the rules that he, himself, helped establish in terms of how we conduct our Committee meetings; but I cannot allow him to now wilfully distort and read falsehoods into the records.

I have made no such remark, indeed, I indicated to the honourable members of this Committee, that consistent with our policy as enunciated to the people and farmers of Manitoba during the election of '77, was that we would honour all commitments; all leases; all present leases; and have so continued to do so and will continue to do so; but that we will encourage -(lnterjections) we will encourage and we will provide the necessary support, through such agencies as MACC, to provide for the long-term borrowing, and other support services to encourage private ownership of the land. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please.

The Honourable Minister of Highways is stating a difference of opinion; and before we continue with the Member for Inkster, I would just like to state that speeches in a Committee of the Whole House must be strictly relevant to the item or clause under discussion. The Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: That's what I'm doing , Mr. Chairman, and I'm glad you reminded the Minister of Highways that that is the case. Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Highways said - he used different language, but he said - "It is not going fast enough. I am not satisfied with what is being done by the Minister of Agriculture.

I want all the lands that are now owned by the Crown turned over to private individuals." And I said, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister of Highways said tt it is not going fast enough, he wants to dispossess that land which is now publicly held by the people of this province as fast as he can, and put it into the hands of private individuals . That's exactly what he said , and I want to remind ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . If I could caution the member that this item was dealt with under Item 3, and we are now dealing with Item 4. (a)(1). The Member for Inkster . MR.

GREEN: I find it almost embarrassing to my friends, the Conservatives, that they would not want me to be able to discuss this subject. I find that embarrassing. Are you so weak ; are you so cowardly; are you so unsure of your position; that you will not let this position be discussed? -(Interjection)- Because the Minister of Highways got up, Mr. Chairman, -(Interjection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Could we have one speaker at a time . The Member for Inkster . MR. GREEN: Mr.

Chairman, let us be clear, and it becomes clearer all the time, and the Minister of Highways introduced a new element into it; he said, and I want to remind the Minister of Highways that 75 percent of the land in the this province is now owned by the public generally, 75 percent of all the land area of the province of Manitoba is owned by the public generally . And what the Minister of Highways said is that the Conservative Party intends to - as quickly as possible - dispossess the people of this province of that ownership of that land , and turn it over to private individuals, Mr. Chairman. -(Interjections)- MR.

CHAIRMAN: We are now not voting on this Resolution, we are on a different department, Mines and Natural Resources . The Member for Inkster . -(Interjections)- MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Chairman , it was the Minister of Highways that said he is going to encourage the Minister of Mines and Resources to see to it that this land is disposed of, so he's the one who brought in the Ministe r of Mines and Resources ; and I am suggesting to you, Mr. Chairman, that I want exactly what the Minister of Highways wants . I want the issue to be clear. I want it to be clear , Mr.

Chairman , that the Conservative Party position is to depopulate the rural areas; to have the lands owned by fewer and fewer numbers of ... in the province of Manitoba; to see to it that there is no land available for young people who will go into farming; that in order for a person to enter the agricultural profession he will have to buy land on the basis of its current 2372 ... ,. .

Tuesday, April 10, 1979 market value and put the entire capital cost up either in cash or by mortgage ; or not be involv ed in farming. Or, in the alternative , Mr. Chairman , the Minister of Highways says he will give it to him . But after, Mr. Chairman, it has all been given away, it will be owned by private people , and private people do not give anything away. -(Interjection) - They will then, Mr. Chairman , say that they are going to sell it for the highest pri ce, and when they sell it for the highest price , what will happen . . . ? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please.

I would suggest that possibly the topic of discussion would best be discussed under the Minister 's Salary. I'm suggesting that part of that was covered under Item 3; I'm suggesti ng that the Membe r for Inkster contain himself to Item 4.(a)(1). The Member for Inkste r. MR. GREEN: I'm dealing with the salaries that are spent to support the efforts of rural Manitobans to improve their quality of life. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet on a Point of Order . MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, my point of order . . . MR.

GREEN: I'm dealing with the salaries that are paid to those people who are going to support the efforts of rural Manitobans to improve their quality of life. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet on a point of order. Order please . Order please . The Chair recognizes the Member for Lac du Bonnet on a point of order. MR. GREEN: Pardon me? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair recognizes the Member for Lac du Bonnet on a point of order. The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, my point of order is, that the heading that we are now debating is Agricultural Production Division, which includes all of the productive land in the province of Manitob a. -(Interject ions)- Oh yes, yes, Mr. Chairman . It includes all of the technica l services; all the support services of the Crown with respect to production of agricultural commodities; and therefo re it is a wide open debate as to what is conta ined in these Estimates and as far as the Opposi tion is concerned , it is open to criticize what is lacking in ... -(Interjections)- Mr. Chairman , who has the floor here? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member of Lac du Bonnet continue on his point of order . MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , it is up to the Opposition to point out what is lacking under this appropriation in terms of the policies that come under Agricultural Production Division . MR. CHAIRMAN: To the Members of the Committee, I rule that the Member for Lac du Bonnet does not have a point of order . I would rule that the area that has been under discussion has been under Item 3, and I would like to refer members to Item 4.(a)(1). The Member for Inkster . MR. GREEN: 4.(a)(1). I'm dealing with 4. Agricultura l Production Division .

I refer to the clause : Supports the efforts of rural Manitobans to improve their quality of life. I'm dealing with

(1) Salaries , which is the people who are paid to administer those efforts to help rural Manitobans improve their quality of life. One of the ways in which rural Manitobans are able to improve their quality of life is to continue to live in rural Manitoba , and one of the ways in which they are to continue to live in rural Manitoba , Mr. Chairman, is if we deal with agricultural problems .. One of the agricultural problems that we have noted in the province of Manitoba over the past years, is rural depopulation . -(Interjection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . Order please .

All members will have an opportunity . . . Order please . All members who wish to speak will have an opportunity if they so indicate. The Member for Lakeside on a point of order. 2373

Tuesday, April 10, 1979 MR. ENNS: This Resolution has precious little to do with the quality of life for those people who want to live in rural Manitoba. It has to do with agricultural production, and it deals with the particular technical services of how to raise better cattle; how to raise better forage seed; how to raise better crops; how to produce better diversified crops, etc ., etc., etc . That's the item that we're dealing with. That's the item that we're dealing with . -(Interjections)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please.

To the members of the Committee , with the interruptions going on, the Chair has a problem hearing . The Member for Inkster . MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Highways has a problem . I am reading from 4.(a). If he will look at thEl line immediately above 4.(

a) he will see that Agricultural Production Division, supports the efforts of rural Manitobans to improve their quality of life. Now if the member will say that the Conservatives really put that in because they don 't want to improve the quality of life of rural Manitobans, and therefore that that item should be struck and that we should eliminate the support of efforts of rural Manitobans to improve their quality of life, and if the member will agree that that is not a consideration of the Conservative Party, then I will agree with him and rather than agreeing to disagree, we will agree to agree.

But that's not what the Estimates now says, and until that item is taken out, Mr. Chairman, I have a right to speak to it. So I am talking about 4. - Support, Administration, Salaries' and I'm talking about the salaries that are paid to go to support the efforts of rural Manitobans to improve their quality of life. And one of the ways that I say that people in the Province of Manitoba, in rural Manitoba, can improve their quality of life , is to be able to live, and to live in rural Manitoba.

And one of the problems of rural Manitoba has been . . . there are two essential problems that I've heard from people in rural Manitoba, and you guys who represent the farm communities, you can tell me whether the farmers who have told me these things have lied to me. One of the things that they said, and this is particularly in the area from 1957 up to '57 -'58, is that there was a cost-price squeeze ; that the cost of the things that they had to buy went up, and that the price of their product was in a market which did not give them even the cost of production for the product ion of their crops.

The second problem, maybe not for the individual farmer as such , but for the one who was affected in that way, was rural depopulation. And the problem of rural depopulation was really one that was created by, or at least aided and abetted by the Conservative Party, who said that they want to reduce the population of rural Manitoba from 38,000 farmers A MEMBER: No, no. Now you're talking nonsense . MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Chairman , it's in the TED Report. It was filed by the Conservative Government in the TED Report between 1966 and '69 . -(Interjection)- Well, I'm glad that you don't want to do that.

The Member for Gladstone tells me that he doesn 't want rural depopulation, that he agrees with me, and that this is a good subject. Fine. Now we want to talk about what causes rural depopulation . And what causes rural depopulation, Mr. Chairman, in many respects, is that it becomes more and more difficult to maintain a viable farming unit . And one of the reasons that it is difficult to mainta in a viable farming unit is the cost of land . Mr. Chairman, again, will the farmer say that I've never heard this from rural people? That the farmers live poor and die rich?

Is that something I learned from the factory workers in the CPR? -(Interjection)- That's what I got from rural people . Maybe they have never heard it, but I heard it. Do they not know, Mr. Chairman, do they not know the age-old rural joke about the farmer who went to New York and was on a quiz show, and he won on that quiz show a half-a-million dollars, and the Master of Ceremonies said "What are you going to do with it? " And he says, " I think I'll go back to farming until it's all gone ." MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please .

Could I ask the direction of the Member for Inkster , as well as the rest of the members of the committee , if the intention is to have a freewheeling debate on the whole Estimate as such , or whether we want to go item by item . We're dealing on a very wide range, and I'm asking the direction of the members of the committee. The Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: 4.(a)( 1) - I want to deal with the Administrat ive Salaries , where I am entitled to see the effectiveness of those salaries which are paid to our administration to help rural Manitobans improve their quality of life. I am suggesting , Mr.

Chairman , that one of the problems with regard to the quality of life of rural Man itoba ns, is that it beco mes more and more difficult to maintain a viable farming unit. I am suggest ing that the Conser vative Party has aided and abetted that problem 2374

.. Tuesday, April 10, 1979 by virtue of its change in the option which was given to rural people to go on to publ ic land at a preferred rental - and I admit that to this extent it was a subsidy . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. I believe the member is discussing Item 3. again . MR. GREEN: No, I'm not, Mr. Chairman. I'm discussing Item 4.(a)(1). MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Inkster . ..- MR. GREEN: Yes.

I am talking about the problms that are going to be associated with all of these people in agricultural training and the Animal Industry Branch, in the Veterinary Services Branch and the Soils and Crops Branch , in the Communications Branch - all of which are related to trying to improve the efforts of rural Manitobans to improve their quality of life. And I'm suggesting that these people are going to have a serious prob lem in dealing with people who want to get on the land , who cannot afford the capital cost thereof. And the reason that they will have this problem, · Mr.

Chairman , is that an option which was available, not only indeed, Mr. Chairman, was available in Manitoba, but an option which has been picked up in Minnesota, in various other places throughout North America, to have land made available to young people, Mr. Chairman, without having to put the entire capital cost in it so that they could live on the land, get the income from it, and not pass an estate to their beneficiaries as a result of accumulated wealth.

Now I know that that runs against the grain of some people, but just because it runs against the grain of some people doesn't mean that those people who don 't want to do it should prohibit others from doing it. Where is this concept of freedom? Where is this concept of saying that we want to provide free Manitoba . The guy who says that I believe that I should own and operate my own land and that it should be a huge unit and that I should pay off my mortgage with the income and have a huge estate when I die - I respect him.

But I do not respect his right to say that everybody has to live the way he wants to live. And what we did, Mr. Chairman , and what I urge upon the Conservatives, that these people who are going to be paid these salaries are going to have a great problem, Mr. Chairman , a problem that has been created by the Minister of Highways and his administration under the stupid notion, Mr. Chairman, that this is the reason they got elected to office. You know, I hope they maintain that feeling that that is the reason that they got elected to office ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . MR.

GREEN: ... because if they do that, they won't go to the true reasons, and we'll be able to beat them better the next time. But that certainly wasn't the reason. And if we want to know what the people of the Province of Manitoba wanted, I tell you, Mr. Chairman, that there were more rural Manitobans supporting what my honourable friend says is Socialism in 1969 and 1973 when we were much more outspoken on these issues, than in 1977 when we were backing away from them . And when we backed away from them is when we lost the rural population, not when we were moving forward toward them .

And let my honourable friend know that. And let him know that I am not, Mr. Chairman, I am not , except with one qualification , able to retract what I said about the Conservatives standing pat when they got into office and us moving forward. Because on the main issues - on this issue - there is no forward movement because we hardly moved at all. But on the main issues, they haven't moved at all. I make a qualification, Mr. Chairman. I did not calculate that they were stupid enough to do some of the things that they have done .

I did not realize that they would take profitable, public operations , that they would take profitable, public operations - yes, Mr. Chairman, I'll take, Mr. Chairman, a related item - Item No. 4. That deals with Morden Fine Foods, which is related to the agricultural community and improving the efforts of rural Manitobans to improve their quality of life. In the Province of Manitoba , Mr.

Chairman, to deal with that rural population, the Province of Manitoba bailed out - bailed out an irresponsible private sector cannery which said that it's going to get everything it can out of the citizens of rural Manitoba, and then when it did, that it would abandon them and leave and the province said, "No , we want to maintain the quality of life for the people in rural Manitoba. Therefore , we are going to provide a vertical industry for the people who grow peas and who grow corn, and who grow beans, to have a related industry where it would be processed in the community of Morden ." Mr.

Chairman, we did that . We did it for five or six years. We did it where the private sector had abandoned them . And then , Mr. Chairman, I agree, I did not believe that the Tories would 2375

Tuesday, April 10, 1979 be so stupid as to say that the businesslike government would turn that over to a private person on the basis of giving him $1 million worth of land, and equipment , and $1 million worth of inventory - for $1 million . I didn't think that my learned friends could be quite as unbusinesslike as they have proved themselves to be. And as a result, Mr. Chairman , I'm glad , and I spoke to the gentleman the other day, that the industry is continuing to operate . But , Mr.

Chairman , he had it all his way, and could have abandoned that plant and taken out $1 million in inventory, and sold the land and come out the winner by $1 million . Fortunately , the work that went on by the public to create that cannery is now beginning to bear fruit , and he will be able to make money on the public investment and the public efforts which were made to keep that industry in the Province of Manitoba. And so, Mr. Chairman , I do make that qualification . I did underestimate the stupidity of the Conservative Government, and therefore , to that extent my learned friend has scored a point .

But it's a rather hard point to live with . In all other respects , Mr. Chairman , the facts are that the Conservatives , in terms of their farm program , have not reversed a great deal. The fact is that the Land Use Program that was being dealt with by the former Minister of Agriculture , was a very moderate program. It was one which the Minister of Highways doesn 't realize resulted in 200 of the 600 farmers who were on leases eventually acquiring the land. And he is right , in that respect. He is right.

That being the program , it wasn't much of a Socialist program, and tha t by not being much of a Socialist program , he is not reversing very much . And that's why I said yesterday at this committee, and I repeat today , that if the New Democrats made a mistake , it was impairing that program with that last option that we put on it, and it got us no votes at all. It cost us votes , because it made the Conservatives appear to be right, and they weren't right . And Mr. Ferguson agrees with me. MR. FERGUSON: We were right , yes. MR. GREEN: No, it makes you appear to be right .

It makes you appear to be right , because we said you were right. MR. FERGUSON: Well , a lot of people thought we were right. MR. GREEN: And that's the problem . Well , if we say you are right , if we say you are right , then you will appear to be right. A MEMBER: That will be enough . MR. GREEN: That's right. We gave you the biggest assist , not by instituting the program, but by abandoning the program . So, Mr.

Chairman , despite all of the interruptions and the difficulties that I have been caused , and people trying to take me off of the subject which I'm supposed to direct my attention to -(Interjections)- A MEMBER: Beautiful leadership speech, Sid. Howard , look out. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Inkster . MR. GREEN: My major problem , Mr. Chairman , if I did have ambitions in that direction, is the support 1 get from my Tory friends , that's right. With friends like that , I do not need enemies. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside . MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman , I'm not quite finished. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: 1 say, Mr . Chairman , that with regard to the agricultural life of rural Manitoba, that the direction of the Conservative Party is to rural depopulation , to increasing larger units of agricultural land , increasing larger units, fewer and fewer farmers , eventually , Mr. Chairman , a group of two things : tenant farmers such as existed not , Mr.

Chairman , under the public ownership , but has always developed under private ownership ; and a rural working people because the farms , as they become larger, and even wit h the mechanization of equ ipment , will require a labour force . And, Mr. Chai rman , that is where we are mov ing. We are not preserving that which the 2376

Tuesday, April 10, 1979 say is best, and that is an owner-operated unit. We are moving away from that direction . And we would have preserved, not an owner-operated unit, but a farmer-operated unit which would have given the rural people a different option, and therefore, Mr. Chairman, I do not know how it could be in any way a restriction of their freedom. As a matter of fact , I would see it as an expansion of their freedom, and that the taking away of that particular program - the taking away of that particular program - will be a detriment to the quality of life of the people in rural Manitoba. Mr.

Chairman , I am very happy that the issues have been so formulated. I said last year, Mr. Chairman, before the election, and I will remind the Member for Lakeside about it, when I told the story, a Tolstoi story of "How Much Land Does A Man Need?", which is directly related to ., the quality of life in rural Manitoba , he said: "I dare you to tell that story in my constituency" . I said: "Name the place and the date; I will be there in your constituency to tell that story". A MEMBER: I phoned you and I got a recorded answer. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, you don't get a recorded answer on my telephone .

He obviously got · the wrong number and didn't care. I'd make the same statement to any of my rural friends now. You want to have a good country meeting; I enjoy them very much and I've been at lots of them . -(Interjection)- Yes, I enjoy the apple pie in the country, that's right. -(Interjection)- And I will come, Mr. Chairman, and we will deal. . . -(Interjection)- Mr. Chairman, if apple pie isn't the quality of life in rural Manitoba, I don't know what is. And the fact is, Mr.

Chairman, that it is interesting, and I don't know , maybe members will help me out: I saw the tail end of a program that was produced by some Mennonite organization on Sunday night, and the tail end of the program was that they were burying a man and said that all he needed was six feet of land from his head to his toe , which is the ending of Tolstoi's story, and I wondered whether, really, did anybody see that CBC prorram; it was this week. I didn't see the beginning of it. These gentlemen are nodding. Did they put on: "How Much Land Does A Man Need"? They did. Interesting, Mr.

Chairman, because the end was that program and it was put on by the Mennonite Brethren, and they saw great value, Mr. Chairman, in putting on what I told my honourable friend, and I want to go, Mr. Chairman , to any constituency in the Province of Manitoba, now with the endorsement of the Mennonite Brethren, saying that that story tells you more about rural life and urban life and any kind of life than you will learn from all of the Conservatives that you will eve speak to. And that is, Mr.

Chairman, what is being dealt with by this particular program, that if we think that we are going to improve the qualify of life of rural Manitoba by depopulating it and by having a greater and greater increase in the size of farms and every man for himself, as the elephant said when he danced among the chickens , that if we think that that is going to improv the quality of life, then the battle lines are set, Mr. Chairman. I'm very aappy . I promised, Mr. Chairman, my Conservative friends that if they announced that I'm going to talk with one of them on the same platform, they will likely get a good attendance.

They will have ·nothing to lose if they're right . We'll see how many invitations I get. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside . Before I recognize the Member for Lakeside, might I caution all members of the committee that anybody speaking should speak to Item 4.(a)(1). The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, it's become patently obvious in the manner and way in which members opposite wish to deal with the Estimates, to accommodate them and to remain within the long standing rules of our committee, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Gladstone, that the entire Estimates of the Department of Agriculture be now passed with the exception of Clause 1.(a), which is the Minister's Salary. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Order please. I would ask for a five minute recess to consider the motion. I call the Committee back to order. Under

Section 64, subsection 15, "The Chairman of the Committee of Supply or a

section thereof may receive a motion to the effect that hhe entire Estimates of the Department of the Government, then under consideration except the item thereof that deals with the Minister's Salary be voted within a period set out in the motion, and upon receiving such a motion, the Chairman shall put the question on the motion without allowing any amendment thereto or debate thereon." Under the circumstances, I would have to rule the motion out of order because of lack of specified time. The Honourable Member for Lakeside . MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, now the member has put a motion which has been ruled out of order ; 2377

Tuesday, April 10, 1979 you recognize the next person on the list. He has spoken and he has put a motion which has been ruled out of order . A member who makes a motion then terminates his speech with the motion . He has terminated his speech -(Interjection)- Mr. Chairman, if I got up in the House and I moved a motion and at the end of the motion if the Chairman ruled it out of order, the next speaker on the list is recognized . -(Interjection)- Absolutely . He has made a motion; the motion has not been accepted; now we move to the next speaker on the list. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the members of the Committee.

It has been the customary order in this room that a member has continuously the floor until he relinquishes the floor. I've recognized members -(Interjection)- Order please. I've recognized indiv idual members time and time again for a long length of time until they conceded the floor. MR. GREEN: That is when they have put a motion . You have not recognized anybodywho has put a motion . He put a motion that ... MR. CHAIRMAN: If the Member for Lakeside relinquishes the floor , I recognize the next speaker . MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, I challenge your ruling . The Member for Lakes ide has put a motion .

Once he has put a motion, he has precluded the chair, and the next person on the list is entitled to speak . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . May I ask for the indulgence of the committee. Order please . I would like to aall the committee back to order. Under

Section 414 of Beauchesne, " If a motion is ruled out on the grounds that its wording is objectionable or its allegations are irregular, the mover is not thereby deprived of the right to move it again after having made the necessary corrections and given a new notice. If the irregularities are trivial or without bearing on the main purpose of the motion, the House may agree to rectify them but the mover himself cannot amend his own.

" Order please , under Secti on 447 , " Occasionally a motion or amendment is by leave withdrawn and another motion or amendment substituted in order to meet the views of the House as expressed in debate . But that course can only be taken with the consent of the House ." I don 't anticipate getting that kind of consent and I, under the circumstances , recognize the Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I regret that for the first time in four teen or fifteen Sessions , that I have witnessed a motion of closure in this House ; I regret that very much , because I think it marks a new procedure under a new administration who no longer is interested, Mr. Chairman, in hearing what the loyal opposition has to say about the Estimates of any department . This is where we're at and, Mr. Chairman, in recognizing that this government wants to operate in a very dictatorial fashion ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . Could I direct the member to speak to Item 4.(aX1)? MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , I believe that the quality of life for the people of Manitoba , especially the rural people of Manitoba , has been seriously impaired tonight by the fact that the government through its majority, has denied full debate on the governmen t's Estimates for the Department of Agriculture . Yes. And that affects the quality of life for rural Manitoba, Mr.

Chairman, if you will read under 4., you will find that it mentions the importance of the quality of life of our rural people, and it has now been severely impaired because this government, Mr. Chairman, doesn't want to put its agricultural program ; doesn't want to put its agricultural program before the loyal opposition of this province for public scrutiny. Yes, that's where we have arrived , Mr. Chairman . It is the first time in all the years that I have been in this House, Mr. Chairman, that that has occurred; the first time. Now, Mr.

Chairman, not only , and you know , if one wanted to give some latitude to the Member for Lakeside , who moved the closure motion, one could say he may have an ounce of credibility, because we spent an awful lot of time on one resolution. If there 's any credibility, it's in that area, Mr. Chairman. But you know, remember, remember, Mr. Chairman , that the Minister has promised 2378

... Tuesday, April 10, 1979 to bring back certain information, took certain things under consideration, and then came back here and said: "I have nothing to say", despite, Mr. Chairman, despite the commitments he gave to this committee, despite the fact, Mr. Chairman, that he had an ample opportunity to bring back the information that was sought. He chose not to do so and then, Mr. Chairman, the Member for Lakeside chose to move a motion of closure . And that is the scenario that we have witnessed here today . Now, Mr.

Chairman, we'll leave Resolution No. 3 for the moment; we will leave that, and we will talk about Resolution No. 4. But what happened, Mr. Chairman, after one speech by the Member for Inkster; we have another motion of closure, not only of a Resolution, but of the balance of the departmental Estimates, Mr. Chairman . Yes, arrogant, dictatorial, Mr. Chairman, has no consideration; no consideration for the public interest, Mr. Chairman. We have to assume , Mr. Chairman , that unless we have second thoughts about our parliamentary system, that there is some validity, Mr. Chairman .. MR.

ENNS: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Honourable Member for Lakeside on a point of order. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, this Resolution deals with the specific technical and specialized support services for farmers and regional extensions provided by regional extension staff. It deals with the animal industry branch; with the veterinary services branch ; with the soils and crops branch; with the technical economic branch ; with agriculture training. These are the items that are supposed to be under this discussion .

We are discussing items that are quite acceptable under the Minister's Salary in a general overview or review of the departmental affairs or this Minister's conduct, but I appeal to you, Mr. Chairman, not for the first , for the second, for the third time, which finally brought about the frustration of people that have some respect . for the rules of this committee that you now rule; that you now rule, Mr. Chairman, unequivocally , that we deal with these specific areas - the animal industry branch; the veterinary services branch; soils and crops branch; technical economic branch; and agricultural training .

This is the resolution that is before us, Mr. Chairman , not a Throne Speech debate; not a budget speech debate; and not the Minister 's Salary. I moved a motion, or tried to move a motion that would accommodate the kind of debate that honourable members wish to have, wish to carry on with . They choose not to and I appeal to you, Mr. Chairman, to rule with some degree of firmness on this question . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please .

Might I suggest to the members of the committee that we've had a very wide ranging debate contrary to the normal procedure in working with the Estimates, or debating the Estimates. I would suggest to all members that we try and contain ourselves to items that are before us, contrary to the way we have been dealing with them until now, and deal with items specifically. The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, you will appreciate that before I was rudely interrupted by the Member for Lakeside that I was dealing with the subject before us.

I made reference to the question of the quality of life for rural people in Manitoba at least three or four times, Mr. Chairman , in the course of my comments. And so the Member for Lakeside did not have a point of order. Mr. Chairman, I want to point out as I was attempting to when the member interjected that if we are going to guarantee to the people of rural Manitoba that quality of life that is so important , because this government has decided that they should make mention of it in their Estimates, then the parlimentary system, Mr.

Chairman, has to function in the traditional way that it aas for a hundred years, Mr. Chairman . One of the problems is that is has begun to malfunction as of this evening A MEMBER: Mr. Chairman , on a point of order. On a point of order . MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, how can we talk about programs for MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside on a point of order. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, while I have a great belief in the parlimentary system, I don 't necessarily believe that the parlimentary system is essential to the quality of rural life in Manitoba .

There are, after all, other systems. -(Interjections)- There are other systems, there are other systems 2379

Tuesday, April 10, 1979 MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Order please. Order please. Could I suggest to the members of the Committee that a difference of opinion does not constitute a point of order. The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, again the Member for Lakeside , the Minister of Highways, has interrupted me when I was trying to stress the importance of the quality of life in rural Manitoba. Mr. Chairman, and the Member for Lakeside put on the record that the parlimentary system is really not relevent or important to the people of rural Manitoba .

That 's what he just finished telling us, Mr. Chairman. Yes, we understand that that's their belief because they have put motions forward tonight, in this Committee, that indicates that very point. We have understood that for the last hour and a half, Mr. Chairman. We understand it fully . Because , Mr. Chairman, this government doesn't want its Estimates scrutinized by the Opposition . We understand that . And they are attempting ways and means of not having that done. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . The Honourable Minister on a point of order . MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the member would refer to the Estimate that we are on, that's Administration 4. (a)(1) which is the salary of the Assistant Deputy Minister and expenses in that department . MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, I would like to speak to the point of order . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Inkster on the same point of order . MR. GREEN: I think, Mr. Chairman, that indeed there is an unexpected subject with respect to the rural quality of life.

I, myself , would not have thought that it would be relevent but when someone questions whether the parlimentary system is relevent to the quality of life in rural Manitoba, I believe it becomes an issue that has to be discussed, Mr. Chairman . MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman , on that same point . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister on the same point of order . MR. DOWNEY: The members will have an opportunity to discuss that general area on my salary and I think that 's MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , the Minister is not going to dictate when we are going to discuss the Estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please.

The Honourable Minister on the same point of order . MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman , I think in keeping with the way in which we debated the last item that took so many days , we're quite prepared to carry on .. . -(Interjections)- and we would like to get directly to the salaries that the Assistant Deputy Minister . . . -(Interjections)- Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm speaking to the point of order that we should be discussi ng, 4.(a)(1), Salaries, which in fact, are the salaries of Assistant Deputy Minister and support staff. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , did the Minister have a point of order? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourab le Minister did have a point of order . The Member for Lac du Bonnet, would he retain himself to the Item of 4.(a)( 1 )? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , you will recall , and it is unfortunate that we can't produce Hansard instantaneously - you will recall several mentions in my comments with respect to the importance of the quality of life for the people of rural of Manitoba . That is specifically mentioned in Item 4, Mr. Chairman , specifically mentioned . And we are dealing with that , Mr. Chairman . The Member for Lakeside wanted to preclude debate on that question , Mr.

Chairman , and so we have now introduced to this debate whether or not the parlimentary system is relevent to the people of rural Manitoba . Well , I want to tell the Member for Lakeside that this parlimentary system has made him a Minister of Highways - yes, and that he has a responsibility . . . 2380

Tuesday, April 10, 1979 MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. I rule the Member for Lakeside out of order on that point. The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I agree with you, Sir, that we want to talk about the quality of life for rural people and in talking about the quality of life for rural people, I think it is important, Mr. Chairman, that we have the fullest degree of discussion with respect to each aspect of the Minister's appropriations . And so, Mr. Chairman, I don't appreciate when that is denied to us.

I don't appreciate that and I think that the Committee should know that in case it slipped their mind, Mr. Chairman . I think the Committee should know that. So, Mr. Chairman, what are we going to do with respect to the area of agricultural production in Manitoba. That's what we are talking about, Mr. Chairman. And the Member for Lakeside, this evening, indicated to us that they have made up their mind that they are going to alter in some way the lifestyle of the people of this province and in particular those in rural Manitoba, Mr. Chairman .

Wherein, he said they were going to embark on the selling of all of the Crown lands that is available in Manitoba. And I want to ask the Member for Lakeside in that connection because, Mr. Chairman, · I know that within this appropriation that is very relevent, Mr. Chairman. I know that with respect to the production of agricultural commodities, Mr. Chairman, for which we have an appropriation of some $7.7 million in this vote, Mr. Chairman, that it is important to know how the Minister intends to make this change. Now we know that as an example, Mr.

Chairman, that the Minister of Highways has a Crown land lease, Mr. Chairman, some 1,700 acres of Crown land which is the farm that makes up the Harry Enns farm in Woodlands. We know that. And this Minister says he's going sell that land and many lands like it .. . -(Interjections)- Oh no, that's right he said he was going to give it away - that is correct. I'm corrected by the Member for Inkster, Mr. Chairman. He is going to give it away, Mr. Chairman. And I would like him to explain more fully to this Committee how that is going to improve, Mr.

Chairman, the quality of life to the people of rural of Manitoba and how that will affect the expenditures of $7,794,000 , Mr. Chairman. I suggest that the Member for Lakeside will have a problem because if he wants to sell the land that he is now leasing, I suggest that he will have to preclude himself from a privileged position in bidding for that land. Yes, because it belongs to all of the people of Manitoba. Unless he wants to exercise his conflict of interest and ignore the public interest, Mr. Chairman, similiar, Mr.

Chairman, to what is possible with the examples that were debated earlier in these Estimates, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A Point of order. The Honourable Member for St . James . MR. MINAKER: Mr. Chairman, as we are dealing with Item 4., which describes in general terms what in fact covers that department . And if we look in detail what covers that department, Mr. Chairman, it's Administration, it's Animal Industry Branch, it's Veterinary Services Branch, it's Soils and Crops Branch, it's Technical and Economics Branch, Agricultural Trainings, Communications Branch and Canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreement.

I would ask you, Mr. Chairman, to rule the member out of order. It has nothing pertaining to leasing of land under that particular department and he's out of order. The

Summary at the top of this item relates to the details that we have just covered verbally to you, Mr. Chairman. I would ask you to rule the member out of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. James has a point of order. The Member for Lac du Bonnet, I would suggest that we try and stick to the items specifically as they are designated here- 1.(a)(1) $53,000.00. The Member for Lac du Bonnet MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I don't understand how you ruled on that point, Sir . Did you rule on that point of order? MR. CHAIRMAN: I ruled in favour of the point of order . MR. USKIW: Oh. Well, Mr.

Chairman, I want to explain that the expenditures of $7,794,000 has to do with Animal Industry Branch, has to do with Veterinary Services, has to do with Soils and Crops . Now maybe the Member for St. James doesn't know that soil is involved with Crown lands , too, and is relevent with respect to the fact that the Member for Lakeside happens to operate Crown lands , Mr. Chairman . Mr. Chairman, the Economics Branch is probably the most relevent with respect to how we structure the land question is Manitoba. Yes, the Economics Branch is probably the most relevent . Because that's area, Mr.

Chairman , in which we can determine the kind of land tenure system that 2381

Tuesday, April 10, 1979 we should have, whether there should options within it, whether the quality of life for the people of Manitoba would be enhanced with two or three options or whether the quality of life for rural Manitobans , Mr. Chairman , would be enhanced if we stuck with only one option . So that is what we are talking about.

We are talking about the capac ity of the people who are out in the countryside producing goods and services , primarly goods in the field of agriculture, what that capacity is, what its potential can be and how it can be structured to optimize the production of agriculture commodities in the best public interest. That's what we are debating, Mr. Chairman . So I would wonder how the Minister , Mr. Chairman , is going opt imize that capacity with respect to the provision of services under any of these headings when there is obviously , Mr.

Chairman, going to be a reduction in the number of farm people in the countryside. And , Mr. Chairman, the statistics that we have had year after year, every five years we have looked at the census figures and we have come to realize a long time ago, Mr. Chairman , that there is a major shift of population taking place from rural Manitoba to the rrban centres . But, Mr. Chairman, during a period of time that trend was either slowed down , in fact, even reversed for a while . That was during the periods of the previous government , Mr. Chairman . Now there are many factors that went into it.

It wasn't all to do with government activity in the field of agricultural production , i n the policy field of land tenure or whateve r. No one is making that claim , Mr. Chairman. What we are stating though is that there was a reversal of those long term trends and that part of the reason , Mr. Chairman , was that the government initiated certain programs that were not in existence before which assisted . Mr. Chairman , I am reminded of a piece of information that went out to the public giving us the young Manitoba farming situation away back in 1976.

This was put out by the Department of Agriculture at that time. And , Mr. Chairman , it 's worth repeating . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister on a point of order . MR. DOWNEY: I believe we are discussing the Estimates of this year 1979-80 , not the Estimates of 1976 and I would like to refer the member back to Item 4.(a)(1) which are salaries for the Assistant Deputy Minister of the Production Division and his support staff . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet. respect to the young people , and that was a significant breakthrough . A significant increase took place from '71 to '76, Mr.

Chairman, when a minimum of 4,980 young persons started farming . That was a new record , Mr. Chairman , for a short period like that . Manitoba performance differs from the Canadia n average . The proportion of farmers under age 35 is higher in Manitoba than in any other province except Saskatchewan . This is a 1976 statement , Mr. Chairman . In Manitoba , 21 .5 percent of all farmers were under 35 years of age at the time of the '76 census , compared with 22.9 in Saskatchewan, 19.6 percent in Alberta, 16.1 percent in Ontario , and 19.2 percent for Canada .

The increase of young farmers matched with a movement of older farmers out of the farming business has slightly lowered the average age of farm operators in Manitoba from 48 years of age in 1971 to 47 in 1976. Several financial support programs have been targeted toward young farmers by both the provincial and Federal governments . During 1971 to 1976, the farm diversification program , the Manitoba Agricultural Cred it Corporation , the Farm Credit Corporation and various other government programs provided 2,500 beginn ing farmers with financial , assistance .

There were 32,104 farms of all types in Manitoba in 1976, although this is a decrease ..: of 2,877 since 1971, the reduction is much less than over the previous five-year period , which saw a reduction of 4, 766 farms . Analysts with the Planning Secretariat suggest that , on the basis of the figure , the flow from rural areas is being stemmed . Now, Mr. Chairman , I read that into the record , and of course , Mr. Chairman, the Minister is not even interested . We've made that observation . But I re;1d that into the record , Mr.

Chairman, because we will be watching to see what develops with respect to rural population figures over the period of time that this Minis ter has the responsibility to develop agricultural policy and rural development policy . We will be watching with a great deal of interest. And if the Minister of Agriculture thinks that these are not important items of consideration with respect to policy development , so that we have a prod~tion base based on a number of principles , Mr. Chairman - Yes it's possible to have a production base where only 100 people produce everything that is produced in Manitoba , • 2382 •

Tuesday, April 10, 1979 or we could have a production base where 30,000 produce what is capable of being prod uced in Manitoba or whatever figure that you would want to use, Mr. Chairman . And it is really up to governme nt policy whether or not we degenerate , degenerate to the position where we have only a handful of people left in the industry . It is a matter of government policy that will deter mine that.

Or whethe r we have a great multitude of rural peop le operating their farms which will give us a greater degree of balance in terms of population , in terms of opportunities in each region of Manitoba, and that if that could happen , Mr. Chairman, it would be much better, much better than to swell the urban areas with people who don 't want to go there, who will not necessari ly fit into an urban community , who would be there only as reluctant people who have been forced into a new environment.

And that is what we're talking about when we talk about what should be done with respect to policies in the area of agricultural production. Now this government doesn't want to hear those things , and we appreciate that they are not interested in any constructive debate that may be presented to them Mr. Chairman . We have witnessed that for the last eighteen months , because they have made up their minds some time ago as to what policy they want to pursue . They want to pursue a policy of minimum governmental involvement .

They want to pursue a policy where the marketplace is the sole determinant of what happens , what shapes and moulds our society. Yes, that's the do-nothing philosophy of my friends opposite . And they are very consistent when they present these Estimates to this committee with that point of view. Now surely , Mr. Chairman, they don 't expect the Opposition not to take notice of that . What is it, Mr. Chairman, that the government feels the role of the Opposition is? We've learned that this evening . They believe that there is no role for Opposition. They believe, Mr.

Chairman , that we ought to move into somewhat of a semi-dictatorship situation as has been demonstrated by the Member for Lakeside this evening , where the government of the day will make all the decision s and they really shouldn 't have to put up with an Opposition that may have some constructive ideas . That's what we have come to in 1979 during the consideration of the Estimates of the Departmen t of Agriculture . Mr. Minister , I tell you that that is not a credible posit ion. You will suffer because of that position . That is your problem .

We will try to guarantee that you will suffer because of that position . That is our job . Mr. Chairman , I move the comm ittee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. All in favou r? Any opposed? Committee rise. SUPPLY - HEALTH AND COMMUNITY SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN: I direct the honourable members to Page 52 of the Main Estimates, Health and Community Services . Resolution No. 67: Item 6. Manitoba Health Services Comm ission , Item 2; Personal Care Home Program-pass - the Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman , it's quite a coincidence that we should be debat ing Personal Care Homes at this time . I want to say to the Committee that I had a good example of some of the problems that we have. I received a phone call immediately after - in fact , I had a call that I returned at 4:30 after we finished the Estimates for the afternoon, and this was the case . This lady was working . She had a mother that's 90 years old and her daughter was taking care of the grandmother.

She had been advised to make application to have her mother taken to a Personal Care Home but she thought that she would keep her at home as long as possible . It got that it got pretty hectic , pretty difficult for the granddaughter , so the mother quit her job to take care of her 90 year old mother . Well, things got from bad to worse. The mother had a broken leg, I believe , a few months ago and she wasn't admitted in the hospital. I think - the work - sent her back home . She is senile and at times her temper gets the best of her, and she's been on drugs . It's been quite difficu lt.

In fact , it got so bad that the doctor advised the lady to get her mother into the hospita l. The mother was taken to the General Hosp ital, -(Interject ion)- yes, the Health Sciences Centre, and the re she was told that they only had private rooms and she could be admitted if she went i nto a private room and paid $25.00 a day. Well, Mr. Chairman , tha t' s news to me.

I always felt ever since this plan came in that, if there wereno other rooms , these people would be admitted to either semi-privat e or privat e r ooms if tha t was empty and , mind you , they could have transferred them the next day or the s ame day if a t all poss ible. Well , these peop le the n, because they had to , they had no cho ice, t hey did admit her and they're paying $25.00 a day. Now , the doct or suggeste d t hat she would have to go to a Personal Care Home .

She had a lot of trouble with the person in charge of the socia l service , the gentle man that dealt with her, and he told this lady that she had four choices : That she could ta ke her home - 2383

Tuesday, April 10, 1979 No. 1; No. 2, that she could have home care; No. 3, that she have her admitted at the Municipal Hospital; or keep her in that hospital at $25.00 a day. She was supposed to be given a couple of days or so to think over the situation , and she's been quite disturbed by that. Then she received a call - mind yotl, according to this lady, the gentleman is not very helpful and that's another point that I have. I think that we could be a little more humane to the people and it seems that the only thing that counts is keeping people out of the hospitals to save dollars these days.

Well, the gentleman told her that there was no longer the same choice, there was no room at the municipal hospital and there was a waiting list of over 100 people and there was nothing that could be done and she would have to make an application. He wanted to give her an application form, to make an application to have her in a personal care home and if she was panelled , she would keep on paying the $25.00 a day plus $7.75 per diem rate as a panelled person . Well, Mr. Chairman , I told the lady that I wasssure that this person was wrong and this would not be allowed.

As the bell rang for a vote , I asked her to come tonight and I haven't met the lady - I think she is upstairs - and I suggest to the Minister at this time , I would ask him if he would be ready to meet with this lady very soon and if she is listening , I guess he could answer, because I think that this a case that either is -(Interjection)- Well, maybe we could do that. Mr. Chairman, I feel that this is one of the areas - the Minister is saying that everything is right and I'm not blaming him for that , but what kind of instructions do these people have.

You know, you have social workers in the hospitals to try to help and ·they get everybody shaky, they get everybody disturbed by that kind of nonsense talk . And what is going on? Will the Minister allow that? Is this a new policy where from now on the people, when there is no room, they can go into a private room and pay $25.00, because certainly that is something new? I have never heard of that before where the people , if there was no room , they had to be accepted and they were covered, but then of course they would be moved as soon as an ordinary bed would become available.

So these people have been there, I don 't know how long, a couple of weeks or so at $25.00 a day, whic:h I think is wrong . The woman can 't get anywhere with the social worker and I certainly blame him, and I have no reason to doubt the lady . She is not the type who was trying for years back to try to get somebody into a personal care home . She did everything possible to keep her mother with her, a 90 year old mother who is senile and whom she is having difficulty with . Right now she is in the hospital; she is tied in a wheelchair in the hospital, in the Health Science Centre, in a private room .

Now the last advice of this gentleman who is out there to help people, to say, fine, you can 't go to the municipal , there is a waiting list. You come and get your mother , get her out of here br we'll give you an application and she will pay $25.00 and $7.75 when she is panelled . Mr. Chairman, this is what we were saying, that there is a lot of need for many personal care homes . I don 't think the Minister has to worry that it will start slowing down too fast.

I'm sure - as I say, I'm not blaming the Minister for that - but I wonder if he knows what is going on, if he knows. that rnany of these things, that we have many complaints like that. I don't know if people are told , well, you've got to be a little tougher, we can't have people in . ..

When these old people, if they were treated like other people , if they need a hospital, if they need treatment for a little while before they are sent home , but the administrators and the people of the hospital are so afraid that they will be stuck with older people , that they won 't be able to get rid of them that you can 't get them in the hospitals. It's next to impossible to get them in the hospitals. And Mr.

Chairman , now I want to hear from the Minister himself it I'm wrong, if this was the right advice, if these people had the right to charge $25.00 a day when they were there because they had no alternative , and if that is the case, if the only solut ion is that she either brings her mother back homEl - and it 's getting too, too difficult for her and her daughter, she needs more than home care , she needs to be hospitalized according to the doctor - and if her choice is to keep her in that room for $25.00 a day, plus $7.75 which is the per diem that she would have to pay when she's panelled . Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could answer this at this time and maybe in his answer advise the lady what to do. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman , it is absolutely illegal for the hospital to levy a charge of that kind. I can only advise my honourable friend that someone who is ill-advised and ill-informed has given that particular lady incorrect advice .

There is no entitlement to a hospital to charge for semi-private or private accommodation that is made necessary by virtue of the fact that other accommodation is not available , and the levying of that kind of a charge is illegal and unacceptable . I have in front of me officials of the Manitoba Health Services Commission , including the Executive Director of the Health Services Commission , Mr. Reg Edwards , and I can assure the honourable member and the lady in question if she's in the gallery , that the facts of the case have been noted and recorded . 2384

...

Tuesday, April 10, 1979 My honourable friend referred to the Health Sciences Centre, and if there are any other details that the honourable member or his particular constituent wants to, and can, make available to us we'd appreciate having them, but that certainly will be followed through by the Health Service s Commission at the Health Sciences Centre and the family in question would be advised to return to the Health Sciences Centre if that was the course of action that they were going to pursue , and advise the Admission desk that the matter was brought up in front of the Health Services Commission and the Minister of Health in the Legislature tonight, and that they're entitled to admission in the accommodation that's available at no charge, and that the accommodation, unless it's elective as semi-private or private , is to be considered as free public accommodation .

MR. DESJARDINS: I certainly would thank the Minister for his clear answer. I'll say that she knew when her mothe r was admitted that she was going to pay $25.00 a day but she was told th is is the only place. We can't admit your mother or she'll pay $25.00. Now, Mr.

Chairman, then could we tell this lady that she either get in touch with somebody in the Minister 's office or at the Commission to rectify that and then it might be, and I think she would understand that she would be treated like anybody else and then that she should mayb e proceed with putting an application, if she's panelled then she would have to pay the $7.75 a day, no matter where she is. So I wonder if the Minister could , so we can finish with this case, advise the lady or advise me and I'll let her know who she should get in touch with. -(lnterjection) Mr. Edwards? Fine, the Executive Director .

Thank you very much . MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, if the honourable member and the lady in question would follow that course of action and contact Mr. Edwards ' office at the Manitoba Health Services Commission, that procedure will be put in motion for her. MR. CHAIRMAN: Personal Care Home Program-pass. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to deal with a few areas that relate to my responsibility as Member of the Legislature for my own constituency and that deals with the personal care home situation in the community of Selkirk.

Approval had been granted in the early part of 1977 for the construction of a new Personal Care Home and plans were well advanced, I believe, nigh finished when the minister saw fit in November of 1977 to freeze any further work in connection with the completion of those plans .

Since that time, the minister I know has received communication from the Council of the Town of Selkirk expressing their concern about the lack of personal care home facilities in the town, but I believe even greater than that is the concern about the expected replacement of the existing personal care home, namely the Selkirk Nursing Home.

I have communicated personally to the minister about the conditions in respect to that home , and I don 't wish to go into any public detail, but the minister does have correspondence from me in connection with that home and the need for the replacement of that home, and I have cited to the minister what I feel to be the pressing reasons that something be done at the earliest possible time to replace the building, some 75 to 80 residents therein.

So I wonder if the minister at this point would be able to advise me whether in fact we can expect an announcement this evening in respect to what certainly I believe most of the residents in the area consider to be a pressing situation, at least as a minimum action on the part of the minister the approval to replace the existing building, the Selkirk Nursing Home , one of the three nursing homes within the Town of Selkirk . MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the honourable member is quite correct in that the question of the condition and the future of the Selkirk Nursing Home has been certainly prominent in considerations over the past, well , I suppose several years, but certainly in our administ

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-3-37b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 3rd hansardpdf 37b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	cac474a6a69d72c20e2ebf8ee4dd7e5c54b9f5c1

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