Manitoba Hansard — 21 January 1960 (Sitting 3, 26th Legislature, 2nd Session)

26-2-3

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly Of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Volume IV No. 3 January 21, 1960 2nd Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. S. Evans, Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba, Winnipeg

DAILY INDEX Thursday, January 21, 1960 , 2:30 p.m. Introduction of Bills Nos. 2, 21, 46, 12, 8, 4, 5, 6, 26, 11 . . . . . . • . • • • . • . . . . • . . . • • • • • 15 Condolences . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • • . . . . . . • . . • . . . . . . . . 16 Speech from The Throne Debate: Mr. Campbell . . . . • . . • . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21 Resolution re Rules and Proc eedings (Mr. Lyon) . . . . . . . . • . . . . • . . . • • • • . . • . . . . . . . . . . . 32 Mr. Prefontaine, Mr.

Paulley . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • • • • • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 33 Motion, re Election Act: Mr. Lyon, Mr . Paulley, Mr. Campbell . . . . . . . . • . • • . . . . . . . 34 INDEX TO VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS, 1960 Introduction of New Members . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . • . • . . • . . . . . . . . 5 Debate, Speech from the Throne: Mr. Groves (St. Vital) • • . . • . . . . • . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 Mr. Jeannotte (Rupertsland) . • . • • . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . • 11

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Thursday, January 21st, 1960. Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: . Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by standing and Select Committees Notice of Motion Introduction of Bills HON. GEORGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture)(Rockwood-llierville): I beg to move seconded by the Honourable Mr. Witney that leave be given to introduce a Bill No, 2,

an Act to Amend the Animal Husbandry Act, and that the same be now received and read a iirst time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion car- ried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Minister of Labour. HON. J. B. CARROLL (Minister of Pub lic Works)(The Pas): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Minister of Education that leave be given to introduce aB ill No. 21,

an Act to Amend the Apprenticeship Act, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Provincial Secretary) (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney-General that leave be given to introduce a Bill No. 46,

an Act to Amend the Public Printing Act, and the same be now received and read a first time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Provincial Secretary. MR . EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Honourable Attorney-Gen eral that leave be given to introduce a Bill No.l2,

an Act to Repeal the Acts of Incorporation of certain Corporations and the same be now received and read a first time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion .car- ried. HON. STEW ART E. McLEAN: (Minister of Education) (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Health and Welfare, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Mini ster of Labour, that leave be given to introduce a Bill No. 8,

an Act to Amend

an Act to Incorporate Manitoba Health Service, and the same be now received and read a first time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion car- ried. MR . McLEAN: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Health & Welfare, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Labour, that leave be given to introduce a Bill No. 4,

an Act to Amend the Pollution of Waters Prevention Act, and the same be now re- ceived and read a first time. · Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce that leave be given to introduce a Bill No. 5,

an Act to Amend the Insurance Act (1), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. . MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Education, that leave be given to introduce a Bill No. 6, an Actto Amend the Insurance Act (2), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion car- ried. MR. D. M. STANES (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move secondea by the Honour able Member from Assiniboia that leave be given to introduce a Bill No.26,

an Act to Amend January 21st, 1960. Page 15.

(Mr. stanes, cont'd.): the st. James Charter, and that same be now received and read a first time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR .. J. A. CHRISTIANSON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Honourable Member for Swan River that leave be given to introduce a Bill No. ll ,

an Act to Amend the Charter of the City of Portage la-Prairie, and that same be now received and read a first time . Mr.Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. . MR. ROBLIN: Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are called I would like to refer to a very worthy. custom of this House, Sir, in which we seek an early opportunity to bring into remembrance the names and the lives of those members of this Assembly who have died since our last meeting, and pursuant to this custom, Sir, there are three :resolutions which I should like to move. The first, seconded by the Honourable Member for Arthur, reads in this way. "That this House convey to the family of the late John G.

Cobb who served as a Member of the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba, its since'l'e sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful like of active community and public service and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this Resolution to the family. Mr. Speaker presented the motion. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, the late Mr. Cobb was a member of this House for only a very short time and I know it is a matter of very general regret that a man of his apparent and obvious qualities should have been cut off so early in his period of service in this Assembly.

Jack Cobb was a very well-known citizen indeed, of south western Manitoba. He is one of that group of people who had come through very difficult times in the years that have passed that afflicted that part of our province perhaps more than any other, and he was able to emerge from those difficulties and establish himself as a leading citizen. He was successful in the business field and he was the kind of a man that was also willing to devote his talents to public life because he served as the mayor of his town. During his term of office many notable im provements were made.

Following that he came to this Chamber. Although as I have said he was not here long yet we were all able to appreciate the active and enthusiastic way in which be entered into his duties here and it is a very great loss I believe that he is not with us now. In moving this Resolution I should like to express the feelings of all of us in condoling with Mrs. Cobb and the family that he leaves behind. MR. J. D. WATT (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, in seconding the First Minister's motion I would like to say a few words in tribute to my predecessor the late Jack Cobb.

Jack was privileged to serve the Arthur riding for a comparatively short period of time. But in that time he gained the respect and the confidence of the people that he represented and I understand that he became known in Legislature as an able servant of the people. A quiet and sincere man of high principles, he had the interests of his constituency and of Manitoba at heart. ·I think that the greatest tribute that I ca n pay to the late Jack Cobb at this time is that I hope that I will merit the same respect and confidence that he enjoyed in this Legislature and in our Constituency. MR. R.

PAULLEY (Leader of the CCF) (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I don't think it would be proper for me to pass this. opportunity of saying a word in respect of Jack Cobb. I do this principally because inside of the Chamber in the short period of time that Mr. C.obb was a representative here I think possibly I was singled out more than anybody else for his criticisms insofar as politics were concerned. But outside of the Chamber in the corridors and elsewhere we recognized that those differences only pertained within the Chamber itself.

After our ses sion was finished last summer my family decided to travel east and Jack was on his way home and we bumped into each other figuratively speakii:lg, going through the customs at Emerson and we followed each other for some considerable distance in the States, his car ahead of mine and when we reached the turn-off point, the point of departure, Jack and Mrs. Cobb waved to my wife and myself with a cheery· "So long Rtiss, I'll be fighting you ere long in the Legislature, but it wilL be a fight Without malice towards each other".

I agree with th� remarks of tb.e First Minister when he says that had Jack Cobb been Page 16. January 21st, 1960.

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd.): still with us he would have been an able representative of his constitu ency and it was with deep and profound shock that when we arrived in Toronto, the inorning after our arrival there we saw in the Toronto Star I believe it was, the notice of the passing of Jack Cobb. Mr. Speaker, while our association was very, very short I join on behalf of my group. with the rest of the members of this House in extending our condolences to those left behind. MR. E. I . DOW (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, I would like to concur in the remarks of the former speakers in offering condolences to Mr .

Cobb. Possibly in this House, I knew Jack Cobb better than any one of us. In being his neighbour for the past 40 6p.d years I did associate with him in all types of activity, church, fraternal, municipal and political and I might say that the inspiration that Mr. Cobb gave to me and to younger members of the com munity he has a living memorial in results of his activities within his own community and surrounding the community that will live for a long time and I just wish ta concur and express our sympathy and condolences along with the rest to Mr. Cobb's family. MR. EV ANS: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to add just a short word to what has been said because of a connection with Mr. Cobb in a very personal way. My wife's family are in Melita and I visited there frequently and have had the opportunity -of seeing Mr. Cobb in his own town and the respect that he enjoyed on all hands in that community and communities far beyond. I think the working of our Resolution is particularly fitting in Mr. Cobb's case because it does draw attention to the contribution that he made in an active life of community work.

I think one thing that I might add that has not been said and that is that he was rising to the peak of his power, that he had not achieved it. I think that those of us who had known him over some time have remarked on the quick progress that he had already made and the even greater hopes that most of us had for his continued public service in the province and his community. And so it is with a sense of loss both personal and in the public interest that I wanted to add a word of my own of condolence to the family in this case. • MR. SPEAKER: Members rise for a moment in respect for the memory of the late member.

MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I have a second resolution to move which will be seconded by the Honourable Member for Cypress, in these terms. That this House convey to the family of the late Honourable Marcel Boulic who served as a Member of the Legislative Assembly, its sincerest sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service, that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this Resolution to the family. Mr. Speaker presented the motion. MR.

ROBLIN: Monsieur l'Orateur, il m'incombe un devoir tres penible en cette occa sion, c'est celui de rappeler le souvenir de mon collegue l'honorable Marcel Boulic qui est decede en septe mbre deruier. En plus d'etre un. ami sincere de vieille date, il m 'etait tres intime et jouissait de la -confiance du gouvernement manitobain. En outre des hautes fonctions de son ministere, il possedait une connaissance appro fondie des besoins ruraux du Manitoba ou il avait passe sa vie. n etait en effet un chef tres estime de l'element franc-manitobain.

Je suis aussi certain que ses sages directives vont nous manquer tant dans son milieu qu'an sein du conseil des ministres. Translation: Mr. Speaker, I have the sad duty on this occasion to remind you of my colleague, the Honourable Marcel Boulic, who died last September. Besides being a sincere friend of long standing, he was a very close associate of mine and enjoyed the confidence of the Government of Manitoba. Apart from his important ministerial functions, he had a wide knowledge of"the needs of rural Manitoba, where he had spent his life.

He was in fact a well-liked leader of the French speaking element of Manitoba. I also know that his wise decisions will be m_issed in our midst as well as by the members of the Cabinet. Monsieur Boulic, Sir, was a colleague of mine in a double sense because we not only shared together the responsibilities of members of the same cabinet, but in previous times we shared together the vicissitudes that come to comrades -at-arms in the life of politics, with January 21st, 1960. Page 17.

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd.): its ups and with its downs. I came to know him very well indeed as a successful farmer, as a successful business man, and in my opinion, as a good member of this House and a loyal colleague at the cabinet council. He was quiet, strangely unassuming for a man so big, and yet he had a wisdom and a sagacity and a knowledge of affairs of this province which made him a wise counsellor at all times. He was, of course, one of the spokesmen for the French-speaking community of this province.

In my opinion he reflected not only credit on that community, Sir, but credit on the citizens of the province as a whole. I assure you that he is sadly missed, and it is with sincer ity that I extend, I know on behalf of all of us, our sincere expression of sympathy and of condolence to his wife and family. MRS. THELMA FORBES (Cypress): Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the Honourable the First minister for giving me the opportunity of seconding this motion. Marcel Boulic made · his home in the Town of Notre Dame de Lourdes, a French-speaking settlement which he ser ved well.

His interest in people and in public life soon took him beyond his own home town and he became the reeve of the municipality of South Norfolk. From this focal point he branched out into the field of politics, and it was in this sphere that I had the opportunity of working with him, The late Marcel Boulic became the first member of our newly-formed constituency of Cypress. We felt he had a promising future in the history of the Pr ovince of Manitoba. His death was a shock.

With his passing we lost a man who had a profound love for people, a deep interest in the welfare of his constituency, and one who did his utmost to foster good relations • among the different nationalities of our province. MR. EDMOND PREFONTAINE (Carillon): Monsieur l'orateur puis-je employer la langue maternelle du regrette depute de Cypress pour exprimer au nom des deputes de langue francaise, et au nom de tout le Manitoba francais le grand vide que nous avons ressenti lors de la nouvelle terrible de la more de Monsieur Marcel Boulic.

Monsieur Boulic, natif de Cardinal, tout pres 8e Notre Dame a rendu dignement ce service a sa communaute; devoue aux choses publiques il est devenu rapidement encore tout jeune conseiller et prefet de la municipalite de South Norfolk. J'ai eu le plaisir de le rencontrer sou:vent dans sa capacite de prefet lorsque j'etais moi -meme aux affaires municipales de la province du Manitoba.

La nouvelle de sa mort, comme je viens de le dire, fut un choc terrible pour nous tous. ll nous representait au sein du ministers conservateur; il avait adopte ce parti politique et il en avait absolument le droit et il nous representait avec beaucoup de dignite et de competence. Pendant 1 'espace d'un an et quelques mois il s'est cree dans le coeur des canadiens francais du Manitoba une place tres grande, un place inoubliable.

Je suis tres heureux, monsieur l'orateur, de me joindre au vote de condoleance qui vient d'etre proposes par le premier ministre de cette province et je m'unis pour offrir a Madame Boulic et sa famille, au nom des Canadians francais de cette chambre puisque j'en le doyen nos sympathies les plus sinceres. Translation: Mr. Speaker, may I use the maternal tongue of the late member for Cypress to express on behalf of the French speaking members, and on behalf of all French Manitoba, the great loss we felt at the terrible news of the death of Mr. Marcel Boulic. Mr.

Boulic, native of Cardinal, near Notre Dame worthily served his community; devoted to public affairs he rapidly became, and while still quite young, Cotincillor and Reeve of the Municipality of South Norfolk. I had the pleasure to meet him often in his capacity as Reeve when I myself was busy with the Muni cipal Affairs of the Province of Manitoba. His death, as I have just said, was a terrible shock to all of us. He represented us in the heart of the Conservative ministry; he had adopted that political party as he had every right to do and represented us with much dignity and competence.

In the space of a year and a few months, he has created for himself in the heart of all French Canadians of Manitoba, a very large spot, an unforgettable spot. I am very happy, Mr. Speaker to associate myself to this vote of sympathy which has just been proposed by the Prime Mi nister of this province, offering to Mrs. Boulic and her family, on behalf of the French Canadians of this House, as I am the oldest one, our heartfelt and deepest sympathy. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to again associate my group in the House here in this message of condolence to Mrs. Boulic and to his daughter Sylvia.

I got to know a little more than is the privilege normally of a member, of Marcel, through the associations of both our daughters who happen to be in the same classroom at University, and through that Page 18. January 21st, 1960.

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd.): association outside of the Chamber, Marcel and myself had many in teresting conversations as could be well imagined. I deemed that Marcel Boulic , while a mem ber of the front bench opposite, had a great future before him. When be was first appointed to the government, of that minority government of a year ago, one wondered what type of ·men that the First Minister had around him, and it wasn't very long, Mr. Speaker, before we became fully aware that in Marcel Boulic, they had a true representative of all of the people of Manitoba.

We in our group, sincerely miss his presence in this House and join sincerely in the message of condolence to those he has left behind. MR . SPEAKER: Let us rise as a mark of respect to a former Minister of this Govern- ment. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, this is the last of these resolutions which I shall move today, which I do so, seconded by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition, that this House convey to the family of the late Wallace C.

Miller, who served as a. member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement, and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service, and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this Resolution to the family. Mr. Speaker presented the motion. MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, in the death of Wally Miller, everyone here lost a friend. He was a veteran of politics. I can't recall the time when I wasn't able to see the name of W. C. Miller as engaged in political controversy in the Province of Manitoba.

And be was certain ly a veteran of this House as well, being I think, one of the senior members of this Assembly at the time of his death. He had in retrospect quite a remarkable career. He was a member of this House, he occupied the Throne as Speaker; be held a number of portfolios in what were substantially two different administrations, one of them for which be will be best remembered, being the most important portfolio of Education. And while be held that office it was contro versial, as it is now, and I suppose as it always will be.

But let it be said for Wally Miller that he most firmly believed in the policies that he administered, and he was most sincerely devoted to what be thought to be good and right in the field of education. No one will ever be able to take that away from him. It was a matter of debate hete�I doubt that there was anyone in the House that engaged in that debate with as much interest as I did. We crossed swords on many an occasion. And be was a doughty fighter.

He was able to represent his views with force and conviction and with good humour that is not often equalled, and to cap it all, no matter how embattled the argument had been in here, those who engaged in it with him were always able to leave with the knowledge that we were friends outside the House regardless of honest differences of opinion that might arise within it. I think it can be said that be enjoyed the confidence of his constituents in a remarklilile degree.

I think that everypne in this House appreciated his approach to public matters, his zest, his good humour, and I know that be will be very much missed by everyone here, and I take this occasion to convey to the members of his family this sincere expression of sympathy. MR . D. L. CAMPBELL (Leader of the Opposition) (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I think it is a fitting custom that we have in this House that early during its deliberations each Session we pause to pay our tribute to those who have been members of the House and have passed on •. I think it is appropriate too that when we interrupt our busy

schedule in order to pay this last sad office of respect to friends who have gone before, that we should couch the resolution .which honourable members will have noted, in exact terms in all cases. That is a tradition that has prevailed here for many years. It's the custom regardless of what party occupies the govern ment side of the House, that the First Minister of the Province moves the resolution, that it is a standard resolution in identical-terms regardless of the constituency, party, or the length of service of the former member in question.

I think if we reflect on that we will see that that's one of the many good practices that has come along to us through the years. So that, regardless of the circumstances, that the public record contains the same expressions with regard to their service, and is always moved by the Leader of the House. And I am indeed grateful of the opportunity that the First Minist er has extended to me, of being shown as the seconder of this motion of condolence, because I am just one of Wally Miller's very close friends in this House.

The Honourable the First Minister has said, quite properly, that be had a host of friends here and throughout the country. He has paid tribute to his remarkable career. It was quite January 21S t, 1960. Page 19.

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd.): remarkable, as he has said. He was a bonny fighter. He started that fighting, not politically, but in defence of the democracy that we believe in, when he was still a very young man, through service in World War No. 1. And he, like some others to whom we have recently paid tribute in this House, suffered disability arising from that service, that very few, even of his intimate friends knew of, and the extent to which it no doubt contributed to his early passing. Wally always looked so well and so vital.

He was always ready to defend with that vigor that the First Minister has mentioned, the policies in which he believed so emphatically, that no one thought that we would so soon find him missing from this Chamber. His service has been mentioned by the First Minister. I simply endorse what has been said. He was a great servant of the district that he represented. Education will continue to be a matter of debate for some time, I'm sure, but certainly Wally Miller was a dedicated servant of that department.

He was a fine colleague, a great friend, and all of our group would like to take the opportunity, but time does not permit, for all of us to express how greatly we miss him, how much we appreciate the service that he gave, and how heartily we join the the expressions of sympathy to his family. MR. MORRIS A GRAY (lnkster): Mr.

Speaker, it's very painful to sit here and find year after year we-have to depart with comrades, colleagues, members of the Legislature, passed away, young, in their young life, men that have and could contribute so much to the welfare of the people of this province, and to the welfare of the people of Canada. But as the biblical phrase-"God has given and God has taken" and we cannot do anything about it. Praise may be the Lord. The only thing we can do is express our sympathy, our respect, our sorrow, to those who are departed.

I subscribe to every word said by the First Minister and the Leader of the Opposition, about the late Mr. Miller. I have known him long before he entered the Legislature-over 25 years. I have found him always a fighter-a square fighter, honest, will ing to serve-and who knows, perhaps his sincerity of his ideas in the House and outside of the House has hastened the end of his life. And that's what men in politics sometimes must pay. It's not so easy for some of us to sit in the House here and argue, being accused of everything under the sun, and take it so lightly and smile at it.

Some of them may do it; some of them are trained to it-but not everyone. During the few years I had the pleasure of sitting near him-he was my desk mate-I can assure you that if I have made any contribution worthwhile in this House, it was by the guidance of this man. Knowing that I am a member of a different party, he never fooled me, but I got some good information from him, good advice, and fatherly advice. OUr group joins with the rest of the House in expressing our sincere sympathy to his family.

It's a great loss-a young man, an able man, you should have him here-but as I said before, it is not for us tO say. MR. M. N. HRYHORCZUK, Q.C. (Ethelbert Plaius): Mr. Speaker, I would like to join with others in expressing my deepest sympathy to Wally's family. I knew him for a period of ten years arid met him for the first time in this Legislature late in 1949. A friendship developed between the two of us, Mr. Speaker, that I cherished very highly. It has been said, and truth fully, that Wally was a fighter. He was, and he'd pick up any challenge immaterial of what the odds were.

He stuck by his guns, and what I always thought very highly of him for was the fact that he was never bitter after criticisms had been launched at him. Wally, I believe, received more than the usual number of hard knocks in his life, but he didn't allow that to affect his be haviour towards his acquaintances and his friends. He was always ready and willing to help any of the boys immaterial of what side of the House they sat on, and when be held a portfolio be 'd go all out to help any of the members who came to him seeking advice. I believe, Mr.

Speaker, that Wally made a lasting impression on the affairs of this province. He will be remembered as one of the greater men who made valuable contributions. I know that all of us who knew him will miss him in his associations, because associations with him, Mr. Speaker, were not only enjoyable, but they always left one a little wiser, a little more tolerant, able to see things in the other man's light. MR. R. 0. LISSAMAN (Brandon): Mr. Speaker, I would like to add a word of regret on -the passing of Wally Miller from this House and from this world.

Both the First Minister and the Leader of the Opposition have used the expression "doughty" and ''bonny warrior" and I would say that-and I think Wally himself would like us to remember him as I do when I say on this side of the House when I first entered-and he was certainly in my opinion the happiest warrior Page 20. January2lst; 1960.

(Mr. Lissaman, cont'd.): opposite. And as a brash young critic coming in here, of many of Wally's policies and the government he represented, I must say that I found him most kind outside of this Chamber and ever ready to volunteer sources of information which might even be used against him. This House has lost a very colorful performer in the person of Wally Miller. He always in my opinion put on a good show. It was a sincerely honest show. He would scowl over his glasses at any one who had the temerity to challenge his opinions, and I am sure we will all miss him.

Therefore l would sincerely like to express my regret on the passing of Wally Miller. MR. SPEAKER: Let us rise as a mark of respect to a former member of this Legis lature. MR. ROBLIN: I notice there are a couple of resolutions on the Order Paper before we come to the adjourned debate, but I wonder if it would not meet the convenience of the Honour able the Leader of the Opposition if we were to proceed with the adjourned debate now and then take up the motions afterward? If that's of any convenience to him we'd be glad to do so. MR. CAMPBEL L: Mr.

Speaker, it really is immaterial to me but if it suits the pur� pose of the House I'd be glad to proceed now. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, I think it is very appropriate that I should get the op portunity to speak on the address in reply to the Speech from the Throne immediately after we have been voicing our appreciation of former members and our condolences to their families, because when members pass away they make way for new members to come into this Chamber, and my first word today would be one of welcome to the new members who have arrived here .

Certainly we regret the passing of the former ones, but we are delighted to see the new ones in their places. And perhaps I could be pardoned, even at my extreme old age, if I placed first of all a welcome to the lady member who now graces a chair-unfortunately on the other side of the House-and represents I'm sure very effectively, the constituency of Cypress. It's a long time since we've had a lady member of this Assembly, Mr. Speaker. I don't believe that there are many left here now who sat with a lady member. I had that privilege.

I recall that the last lady member to sit in this House was once asked to choose the most handsome member. I trust that that practice will not be invoked on this occasion, because I must record that the member in question at that time chose the honourable gentleman to whom we have just been referring, the late member for Rhineland.

Well, if I was ever in competition, I'm sure I'm not now, and I would like to say to the honourable member for Cypress, we're delighted to have her here; she's the third lady, I think, to sit in this Chamber, in the history of the pro vince, and I'm sure that she will live up to the high tradition that they have set here. Interest ingly enough, the three ladies to sit in the Chambe� have represented three different political parties. The first one as was appropriate, was a Liberal. The second one as· might have been -----expected under those conditions was a Social Credit.

The third one is a member-vi a group called the Conservatives gone Progressive and I'm sure that this young lady is a "Progressive" in the true sense of the word. And I certainly extend a word of sincere welcome to the Honourable Member for Arthur. We do miss his predecessor as was said earlier and he had made a fine start in here.

But I'm sure that the modest remarks that the honourable member for that constituency made n!l� will likely be rewarded because I think he has both the character and capacity to make the kind of contribution that will recommend him to the people of his constituency and the people of this Province. I knew his father very well and for a long time. I haven't had the pleasure of know-, ing the present member anything like so well.

I could have wished that he would have followed directly in the footsteps of his father politically but I think that in other regards he probably has inherited the good judgment and capacity and reliability of his father, and so I'm sure he can make a good contribution here. I believe that the Honourable Member for Rhinelandis not' in his seat. I am so unacquainted with some of the new members that I wasn't too sure and I welcome him here as the successor to the famous Wally Miller of whom _we've just been speaking, That's-a constituency that is really a very worthy one.

It has had an outstandingrepresentative for al ong time even though it is now represented in our immediate party with the honourable member having the capacity that I know he has I'm sure that he will incline toward our group as the days go on. And so I think we will still have a close connection. January 21st, 1960. Page 21.

I (Mr. Campbell, cont'd.): And naturally, Mr. Speaker, I am most interested of all in welcoming the new member .for the constituency of Turtle Mountain. We're delighted to have him here and I'm sure that the many people.--many members of this House who already know him, will realize that our group is going to benefit by his cou�sel and support. And I'm sure that in his case not only will he perform creditably here but that in addition that he will be assured of a long term of office in his constituency.

Now most of the people on an occasion like this would seize the opportunity to talk a little bit of politics and certainly we could point out the significance of these elections. I shan't weary the House by going into the evident decline of the Conservative Party as it's too well known to need any emphasis from me. Suffice is to say, that the net results of these elect ions is the Social Creditors one up; the Government one down; the Liberal Party as we were; and the CCF default as usual. So the significance is simply, Mr.

Speaker, I think, that the Government is losing support as it should on the basis of its record and I shall have a few remarks to make to prove that point as I go along. Then, Mr. Sp3aker, it's only right of course that I should welcome as well the new min isters. Here again I think I can do so with equal sincerity. It's rather traditional for people on this side of the House to give advice to the Leader of the House on that side of tl;te House as to whom he should choose for his cabinet ministers.

I can recall when I sat in his position that I used to benefit greatly from advice that emanated from this side as to what members of our party were due or eligible for cabinet appointment. I shan't follow that procedure because I must say that up to date I think he has done reasonably well without my advice considering the material he has to work with. And this is no exception. I think that in the new ministers that he has chosen very well and I congratulate them on their preferment.

I say quite seri.ausly that I believe that they will take their responsibilities very much to heart and that circumscribed as they are by the overall hampering policies of the Government that they will do the very best that they can. The young man who has inherited the portfolio of Mines and Natural Resources has made an excellent impression in the House up to date both personally and politically. When he has spoken which hasn't been too often, he has done so courteously and effectively. I know he is sincerely interested in the work that he is doing.

The Honourable the Minister of Agriculture I think is a very good man. I don't know that I Should tell this, Mr. Speaker, but I am encouraged to because one time in one of my conversations with the Right Honourable Arthur Meighen which I always enjoyed he told me an anecdote that I found most entertaining of how one of the former premiers of Ontario had said of one of the forn:er ministers of agriculture. "Thank God we now have a minister of agri culture who looks like a farmer". Well, I can't think of anything better than looking like a farmer. I can 1t think of anything better than acting like a farmer.

I can't think of anything better than being a farmer. Even though the industry itself is in the doldrums today, it still is in my opinion the very best life of all. And I'm glad I'm not commenting on looks- they're. good. I'm not commenting on thoughts. I think that it's a good thing to think like a farmer too because we need some sound, sober, second thoughts today on some of the poli- cies that are going on and some of the places we 're going. But I'm very happy to see that the Minister of Agriculture now is a farmer, because I think that's what we should have-in that port folio.

I'm sorry that the Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs is not in his seat because I would like to say how all of us congratulate him. Perhaps I can say this better in his absence than in his presence because'] do believe that like the late honourable member of whom we were just speaking that he is one of the most popular members of the House. And I could wish that he. had cast his lot in with a better governmentwhenthey were there. However, we wish him well and I'm sure he will have a very interesting time in the portfolio for which I believe he is well fitted. Then, Mr.

Speaker, !must, of course, say a word and I can say 1.t quite sincerely a bout the mover and seconder of the speech of the address in reply to the Speech from the Throne. I was delighted at the speech of the seconder because I think that all of us have come to recog nize that we can expect a modest and tactful and courteous and entertaining speech from all of Page 22. January 21st, 1960,

(Mr. Ca.mpbell, --.cont'd.) •• 1Jhose in this House who were so fortunate as to inherit the right and ability to speak in la belle langue francais. And the contribution-yes, that's about the ex tent of it--the contribution that ,_the honourable member made I'm sure will encourage a lot of the members of this House-..:au the members of this House to hope that he will speak oftener and that he will tell us more about that empire that he represents as a constitu ency.

And I'd say in passing to my honourable friends of the front row that I think they would be well to heed the measure of advice that he gave them with regard to the program which they are now developing, dealing with the people of Indian ancestry in this province. I formed the impression that even with his great courtesy and tact that perhaps he was a little doubtful about the program that was envisaged by his government and that he was trying to give them some sage advice.

If that is the case, I hope they'll take it because I believe there is nobody in as good a position to give that kind of advice than someone who has been very close to them. And then, Mr. Sp3aker, I certainly must say a few words about the contribution of the Honourable the mover of the address in reply. I think that all of us enjoyed his speech. I cer tainly did. · For one thing, I can give him credit for establishing what I believe to be some pre cedence in this House. He's a first non-government member that I ever heard make additions to the Speech from the Throne.

I understand that the practice in Ottawa has now developed that the Prime Minister does that when he replies-and! don't think that one is correct either-but certainly I'm doubtful about a private member-making additions to the Speech from the Throne. And I would warn my honourable friends that I think the tradition should still be followed of put ting whatever the government feels to be of great importance in the Speech itself and not leave one of the private members to develop it for them. Th� precedents that I would mention are number three.

First, these additions to the Speech from the Throne which I'll mention as I go along. Second, through these additions I think that he managed to rather severely criticize the government which he supports. And thirdly, when we consider these first two, it seemed to me that he was stating the government policy with regard to Metro as being total amalgamation. Now the honourable gentleman shakes his head but before speaking of these however, I simply must refer to the honourable gentleman's contribution or suggestion on the permanent speaker ship. I wasn't going to mention the permanent speakership, Mr. Sp3aker.

I think that most of the honourable members who have been here for the last three sessions probably feel that they have heard enough from me on that subject, I would have been prepared to let tt rest for the time being but I gather that the honourable member who moved the address was anxious to ciisc�ss it :fuither because aid- understood him and I haven't had the time to check the exact wording since I had Hansard. put on my desk, but as I understood him, he said that a start had been made already that should be followed along and that just by agreement that the present speaker should become the permanent speaker rather than trying to do this by legislation as was suggested.

I could look up the wording because the honourable gentleman doesn't accept that as a proper

interpretation of his remarks. I'd be glad to look it up because I don't want to misquote him but 1 gathered that he said that the suggestion was made that the permanent speakership should be established by legislation. Mr. Sp.<Jaker, the members of the House who have been here for a few years will know that the legislation had already been passed. The legislation, the same kind of legislation that the United Kingdom had used, had already been passed. It had been agreed to. unanimously by this House. One of the bills had been seconded by his present leader. lt had been unanimously agreed to.

There was no legislation necessary. All that was necessary was some attempt to get agreement as he is now suggesting should be done. I'm sorry to say to my honourable friend that it was his government and his party with him sitting in it that turned down the proposal to follow that procedure and thereby set back the progress that had been made up to that time in regard to developing into a _permanent speaker ship position in this House. I would like to take the time but I know that I will run too long as it is to comment on my honourable friend's views on agriculture.

I don't thinkl'd be as easily satisfied as he is with regard to the government's record in this regard be.cause I simply can't concur in the compli ments that he paid them. But to come back to the points that I mentioned whereby he set the pre cedents that I think we should pay some attention to. The first one was with regard to additions to the Speech from the Throne. And here I believe I should try to find his quotation in the Han sard which has just been laid on our desks--and here i.t is. This is quoting d irectlyfr omHansard. January 21st, 1960. Page 23. j j j j j j J j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j I j

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd.) "In the field of labour we will be asked to consider a number of changes in existing legislation in this field." Mr. Speaker, as I interpret it, that's the language of the Speech :fiom the Throne. But why wasn't it in the Speech from the Throne? Why was there no mention of labour? I'm sure that no one would accuse me of being a biased supporter of what is usually considered as the labour position in this House.

On the other hand, !certainly would not want to be accused of being unfriendly to them because I have a great respect for the work ing man as such, and the labour force in general, but what I sometimes have my doubts about is the leadership of both some of their unions and some of their political representatives. As far as the labouring force themselves are concerned I have the highest regard for them and apprec iation of the contribution that they make to the economy of this province.

And when this govern ment takes occasion in the Speech from the Throne to boast about the industrial production in the the Province of Manitoba, surely, surely, Mr. Speaker, labour deserves at least a word of commendation in that regard--and employers too--employers also because of what they do to add to the economic progress in this province. But not one word of labour until my honourable friend who moves the address in reply to the Speech from the Throne makes this addendum that in the field of labour we will be asked to consider a number of changes in. existing legislation.

Why doesn't the government say that instead of the honourable member? Then he goes on to say after that grave oversight, he says, "unemployment is like a cancer" and I guess I should by rights find that--yes--unemployment is like a cancer. And this is directly from Hansard. "Growing on our society and has serious adverse affects both on the people directly affected and our SI.:>ciety as a whole. I am sometimes aghast at the lightness with which this problem is treated in some circle.s.

" Well, the people he should be aghast at is the government that he supports because they didn't put anything in the Speech from the Throne about it and it is left for my honourable friend to point it out to them and to challenge the motives of those people who take it so lightly. Like my honourable friend, I will await the legislation with interest. Then on the question of total amalgamation. I'm not sure that I can find this in his speech as I took it down as I took it down yesterday and just haven't had time to check it. He says .Greater Winnipeg is not too large to be f\'overned by one authority.

If that's a misquotation in any way, I'd like to look it up. I think that was, Greater Winnipeg is not too large to be gov erned by one authority, and I think it's only fair to say, as I remember from his remarks, he said that eventually, and he emphasized eventually that that should come about. But, I say, on that basis, that if Greater Winnipeg is not too large, Mr.

Speaker, to be governed by one author ity, and that eventually he wants to see that end accomplished, eventually that that is an indica tion, if we judge by him speaking for the government in other regards, that the governme nt is advocating total amalgamation .. Now I think that the former Honourable Member for Municipal Affairs, the present Minister of Public Works, and I, were the only two members of this House who heard all of the representations that all of the municipal people made at the meeting which he assembled.

And! certainly don't think that the representations that were there made were any indication that total amalgamation would be well received in this area. Well, all in all, I don't like the precedents of my honourable friend established, but I do give him credit for speaking his own mind. I think that's an advantage and perhaps some other things will be me!ltionecl.later on. I .mustn't take any more time on his speech. Then when we come to the actual Speech from the Throne itself--there again-- we have some precedents that I think we should not encourage the government to follow.

In fact, there are ones that I heartily disapprove of, Mr.

Speaker, because in this Speech from the Throne, the government, and I'm sure it's through inadvertence--a clumsy inadvertence because it shouldn't have happened--has placed the new Lieutenant-Governor in the position, in one of his very first official acts, that he is drawn into the realm of partisan controversy, because the government, in this Speech from the Throne that was read here a day or two ago, has departed from the usual custom and has the Lieutenant-Governor himself making observations and state ments that can't help but land him, through the government's fault, into the realm of political discussion.

It's quite right, in my opinion, that the first two paragraphs of the Speech from the Throne should begin with the first personal pronoun--a welcome to the members and his ex pression of appreciation for the service of the predecessor. But when he comes to the dis cussion.of public affairs, Mr. Sp3aker, the Honourable the Lieutenant-Governor should by the Page 24. January 21st, 1960.

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd. ) • ·• government be put in the position that they take responsibility for all his statements. And they do so in the remainder of the Speech from the Throne . But in several paragraphs he continues to use .! am happy to report that ther.e has been substantial and satisfactory progress in all the principle fields of responsibility of the Provincial Government. " Third paragraph--Now, Mr.

Speaker, it's the ministers who take responsibility for that state ment because it is completely improper to put His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor in that position because the statement is open to challenge and we can challenge the statement of the ministers quite properly.

We certainly don't want to engage in controversy with the Lieutenant Governor because the very statem en t that is made here re porting that there has been substant ial and satisfactory progress in all the principle fields of responsibility of the Provincial Gov ernment is simply contradicted in the Bpeech itself, just a few paragraphs later on.

Paragraph seven, where it is stated that while the estimated value of Manitoba's 1959 total agricultural production of approximately $321 million is sli ghtly more than one million dollars higher than that of 1958, I must emphasize that net farm income for the year just closed will be lower than that of 1958. That's a good point, Mr. Speaker--that's a good point--and it's well to see that the government is recognizing that.

It's a point that some of us have made for some time, that there is a tendency all too frequently in federal government statistics, provincial government statistics, and many other reports, to publicize the gross agricultural production and conclude from that that agriculture is enjoying prosperous times and to not figure in the costs that go in to that production, leaving a net much smaller or even no net at all. And that's a good point.

But again, it's the government that should take responsibility for that statement--not leaving it to the Lieutenant-Governor--because it is !J.n entire disagreement with what has been said a few paragraphs earlier, namely, in paragraph number three, where the Lieutenant-Governor states that he is happy to report that there has been a substantial and satisfactory progress in all the principle fields of responsibility of the provincial government •. And then, Mr.

Speaker, the next paragraph following on without the responsibilitY being taken by the goyerument,--the next paragraph says "the 1959 provincial road building program completed was the largest on record. " And there is a controversial statement--one for which the government simply must take responsibility and not leave us in the position of having the Lieutenant-Governor state it, particularly in point of view of the position that he so recently occupied--because we dis pute that statement. We dispute it bec.ause of the fact it may be correct to say that it was the largest on record but, Mr.

Speaker, in my opinion, and in the opinion of others who are capable to judge, it was the worst on record, as far as getting value for the money spent. And I'm saying to the government that i.t is not right--it's definitely im proper--to put the Lieutenant-Governor in the position that he is making statements which are going to be a matter of extreme controversy in this House. The road program of 1959 was the biggest bungle that even this government has ever made. They got the least value for their money that any public expenditure ever received, I think, in the Province of Manitoba.

Who makes the statement?--The present Lieutenant-Governor. I blame the government, not the Lieutenant-Governor, because, as you know, Mr. Speaker, it's the government who write the speech and they should have taken more care in so drafting. I shall not comment on all the items that are mentioned in the Speech from the Throne --we'll have the opportunity to mention others of them as time progresses.

I note in paragraph eight that the government tells of the- and here quite properly they take the responsibility for it, and that is right--they tell of the programs that have been instituted to prevent heavy liquidation of livestock because of the un thrashed crops. Very little is new in that program except, of course, the additional one of the so-called crop disaster plan. And the crop disaster plan is tied very closely to the federal government program.

I wonder how the present Minister of Agriculture; being the_ capable and competent farmer that he is, and knowing the problems of agriculture as I grant he does- ! wonder how he can justify the fact that they have a cut-off line at 50% of the crop. Why, what's the difference between a man with 49% threshed and one with 50% threshed? One! per cent my honourable friend says. But why should the man who got just a little bi.t less than 50%-. Because the federal government put that program in?

Sure, that's a good reason, if the gov ernment is willing to see the farmer victimized because of a program in which they do not likely conclll'--but after all that this government said, when it w:is appealing to the people of Manitoba for election, --after all they said, they should have seen that they put up the January 21st , 1960. Page �5.

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd. ) .. additional amounts of money so that the farmers could get compen sa tion. Don't forget, :Mr. Sp·�k er, that this government, through the length and breadth of this province, in three election campa igns, promised and re-promised crop insurance. And then when the federal government, belatedly it's true, and too little and too late , put legisla tion on their statute books which ma de it possible for the province to go ahead with federal participation, they still didn't move except to study the matter further by setting up some test areas.

And when they had faiJed to implement their promise--and not only did they make that promise in three elect ion campaigns, :Mr. Sp�aker, but they made it in the Speech from the Throne that was read to this Chamber--! believ<J, two, if my memory serves me correct- certainly in one, --and having failed to implement that program, then they should at least have seen that this disaster plan that the federal government was willing to help them out with, should have been made much more generous than it is at present. There again, we'll have op portunity to debate that later on that. I don't wish to dwell on it.

The next paragraph--dealing with Comprehensive Economic Land Clas sification Study and so on. Mr. Speaker, work of that kind has been going on for years. Perhaps it is being in tensified, but it is not a new' program. Expanded weed control program is tD be undertaken in co-operation with municipal authorities. I don't know of a year since 1936 or 37 that the weed control program has not been expanded. It's an expanding program. There is nothing new. I sim ply can 't find the cause for apprec iation of the agricultural policy that my honourable friend, the mover of the address has discus sed.

Then, we· come to the statement with regard to the Manitoba Agricultrual Credit Corpor ation, which has been functioning over the last ten months , has approved loans totall ing approx imately four million dolla rs. Mr. Sp�aker, they have approved loans. We get told, time and time again how many they've approved. But how much money has the farmer received? How much money has been paid out ? Why isn't the paid-out money put in? And why the great delay in paying out this money?

If farm loans were needed in the way that my honourable friends con vinced themselv es, -;-and pretty successf ully, I think, --convinced the public of Manitoba that they were needed, --if they were needed in those ways and in those amounts , then why hasn't the government done more than it has done up to date ?

If we had to have a sepa rate farm loan policy in addition to the one that the federal government alread y has, because the federal gov ernment wasn't giving large enough grants , wa.sn1t giving them soon enough, wasn't giving them for some other reason, wasn't meet ing the need of the young farmers, if there were all of those things, what's the delay now in meeting the need, and why are so many being turned down? How many have received the $25, 000 maximum that our honourable friends were so sure was necessary?

Well, till re are a lot of other questions that we could ask here but my time simply won't allow me to. But we want to get the figures as to how much has been paid out and we want to hear the reason for the unconscionable delay in paying the money to the farme rs after the loans have been approved. Then the next one deals with a recent survey. It indicate s that only seven per cent of farm homes in the province are equipped with modern supply and sewage system. So the gov ernment, through the extension service, is going to give assi stance . What kind of assi stan ce , I ask the government?

Shouldn •t we have been told ? Is it just ass istance in planning or is it financial ass istance in its install ation ? If it's financial assistance in installation , then it's copied, I gather, from my honourable friends up in Saska tchewan. There's no doubt of that and nothing against that because this government has been copying the program--in fact, exceeding the program of the C. C. F. so regularly, that there would be no objection to that. But shouldn't we be told whic:h it is ?

If it's not that and is only a case of giving advice with planning and that sort of thing, then that too , is som ething that has been going on for many years--a lthough no doubt, it can be expanded. The thing that my honourable friends should remember in this con nection is that the real focal point of making this kind of a program possible is the extension of farm elect rification in the Province of Manitoba. That's what makes this kind of development feasible. Then we have the statement with regard to what the government is doing on the floodway and allied matt ers.

These investigations are now nearing completion . So, after all the brave words of my honourable friends, they're still just at the inve stigating stage, and tl:e investiga tions are just nearing com pletion. But these are the folks that were going to do things very Page 26 . January 21st, 1960.

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd. ) •. quickly. They weren't going to stall as they accused the former government of doing. They weren't go�ng to wait around and let reports collect dust on the shelves. They were going to go ahead. And now the investigations are nearing completioa and so you will be asked to provide additional funds to put under way the next step.

Well, these steps seem to be pretty feeble, pretty faltering, pretty slow and I wonder if my honourable friend, the First Minister, who a few months ago so bravely declared to this House that we will go it alone if neces sary--! wonder if he found in the interval that he has any more hope of sub stantial financial assistance from the federal government.

I wonder what consideration he has given to the fact that the spendthrift policies of the federal government in particular, and this government as well, have resulted in interest rates rising so greatly that even though that re port is only a little bit over a year old, that the cost of doing that job will be trem endously in creased due to interest rise alone.

As I figure it, instead of a figure of something Uke $3 mil lion for interest on the recommended works, you will now find that the interest-- $3 million per annum--you will now find that, approximately, that the interest cost per annum will be more than 50% in excess of that amount. And what difference does that make to the plans ?

I think that my honourable friend will need the financial assistance that he has been trying to get from the federal government if he is going to take any great strides instead of faltering, slow steps toward the implemen tation of this program that he was so very sure about only a few months ago. I shan•t · comment on the next few paragraphs. I've already mentioned the fact that when this government is boasting about the increase in industrial productivity in the province, that they should have, in fairness, made some passing reference to the contribution of labour and management in that conne ction.

I don't need to comm ent on the Manitoba Development Fund. I hold the same feeling that I have had before-.-that it's a duplication of the effort of the federal government. It's a field of ende avour that the Province of Manitoba should not have engaged in. My honourable friends will say, "well-,- why did you vote for it ?" We voted for it because my honourable friends had promised it.

Having promised it, it's a good thing that some of these things should be proceeded with so that the . public gets an opportunity to find out in the hard way just exactly what it is and what it costs them to listen to these politicians' promises. And they'll find out, in this one, that the duplication of the federal effort is one that will be cost ly to them, I fancy, and doesn't accomplish much that wouldn't have been accomplished anyway. Then we have a paragraph regarding freight rates tn general and the Crew's Nest rate in particular. My government -favours retention of the Crew's Nest Pass grain rates. Mr.

Speak er, who in the Province of Manitoba doesn1t favour retention of it? I don't know one single place.,--not one-,-or one single person in the Province of Manitoba, organization or individual, that is not in favour of it. Thi.s is one place where the Province o:f Manitoba has always been nni.ted. And (Interjee tton) oh, well, they're not a Manitoba concern alone. My honourable friend knows that the CPR is not . dominated from Manitoba--at least I hope he knows. I shan't comment on education at the present moment because I would like to leave that a little later on.

And several of these others, I sim ply must, in the interests of the patience of the honourable memb ers, pass over. Having heard the Honourable Member for St. Vital declare what I presume is government policy with regard to Metro, I think, like him, I'll simply wait until the legislation comes down before we comme nt any further on it.

With regard to the Hydro-Ele ctrlc Board Development at Grand Rapids, I have a goai deal of confidence i.n the Hydro -Electric Board, and I think it's a matter of satisfaction-- should be a matter of satisfaction to all the people of Manitoba that this is one province that has managed to keep ahead of the rapidly growing demand for electrical power. Never in this province did we have a blackout or even a brownout·because of insufficientogenerating capacity, and a lot of the other provinces of Canada were not so fortunate.

And there's a good bit of the credit for that coming to this excellent Board that now makes the recommen dations that this huge development should be proceeded with. I can't help but think in passing because the sum of $140 million still appears pretty large to me- -likely necessa ry for the development --but when we think cif borrowing $140 million through over a period of five years, it's going to add very, very greatly to the cost of that Hydro-Electric Board, particularly now that this government is January 21s t, 1960 . Page 27.

(Mr. Campbell, cont1d.) •• having to pay more than six per cent for the money that it borrows. We haven't had very much information lately as to the financial activities of the government and I presume that the First Minister would say that those are matters that should be discussed when the Budget comes down. But, actually, Mr. Speaker, matters as important as that, should be discussed in the Speech from the Throne.

It's the state of the provincial economy mes sage, and m atters as important as the financial difficulties that this province and its muni cipalities and its school boards are facing as a result of tre tight money �;�ituation is somet hing of the most primary importance, and it will be of great importance in connection with this de velopment and will likely mean that the electrical rate increase that my honourable friend, the Minister of Public Utilities prophesied some time ago cannot likely be long delayed.

However, I think it's only proper that the Board's recommendation should be accepted and that work should go ahead, providing the Board has decided that this is the proper site and no doubt they have. Well then, while I don •t intend to deal any further with the various items in the Speech from the Throne, itself, Mr. Speaker, I think that 1--except education--! must have a few words to say on that--I think that I should, at this time, perhaps, mention two or three of the things that are not in the Speech from the Throne, and tre re are many others that could be developed if time permitted.

I've already spoken of the fact that the Speech from the Throne completely ignored the labour situation, or they made any mention of the difficulties of the unemployed and among the other significant omissions, in my opinion, was the federal-provincial agreements.

For years it's been the custom to take this House into the confidence of the government as to the situation with regard to this highest single source of provincial government revenue--not a word, so far as I could see in the present Speech from the Throne; no mention of the impact; of the tight money policy for which the federal government declines to take responsibility--but which is a fact nevertheless--a real vital fact; no mention of the impact that it has on the pro vincial and municipal and school board finances; no recognition of the fact that Ottawa and tre Manitoba Government must take a share of the responsibility and a considerable share--es pecially Ottawa, of course--that they, through their spending sprees, have had, inaccentuating this tight money policy.

Instead of that, it seems, by the declarations of the Speech from the Throne, that this government intends to go full speed ahead with all of its present spending pro grams and to even initiate some new ones. There isn't any desire, apparently, to take any no tice of the financial danger signals that are flying. Instead of that, if we can believe the press reports, it's intended that the Province of Manitoba should now extend its spending sphere to half way around the world. There wasn't any mention of that in the Speech from the Throne and I'm indebted only to press reports for it.

But if those press reports are accurate, and they appear to have attracted considerable notice, even in our great neighbour to the South, where big spending is not unknown, the government is going to now extend its activities into a little Colombo plan--some country unnamed--where it's going to take on the responsibility of help ing to develop under-developed countries. Well, now, Mr. Speaker, I have nothing but praise for the plans, both humanitarian and financial by which governments of countries are prepared to enter into and assist in such a worthwhile work as that.

I believe we can all believe it is very worthwhile, that it's necessary, and will pay dividends in the futurP. But I certainly have great criticism of any suggestion that an individual province should invade that field. Surely, if there's one place where there should not be, and there are a good many, but one place where there should not be duplication of effort and confliction of policies or over-lapping policies between federal and provincial governments, surely this is one.

My honourable friend is known to be rather impetuous and certainly kind hearted, but I would think that this was a time where he should not curb his humanitarian in stinct toward helping these companies, but press the federal government to do what is neces sary in addition to what they are already doing, rather than the Province of Manitoba getting in to a field where it just does not, in my opinion, belong. And then, Mr. Speaker, I must say a word about education. But it will be brief because we will have opportunities there again to discuss this ·very important subject.

Like my hon ourable friend who moved the address in reply to the Speech from the Throne, I am interested in education and I am paying close attention to the progress of the so-called new program. Un like him, however, I'm not so much impressed by the record of the present government in this vital field. When the Speech from the Throne tells us, and I want to get the exact words in this Page 28 . January 2 1st , 1960.

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd. ) .• regard--Pm quoting now. "My government is studying the extent to which and the ways and means by which the recommendations of the Commission might be im plemented in the public interest, and policy on all these matters 'Wi ll be announced in due course. " I am sure that most of us in this Chamber thought immed iately of public aid to private schools as one of the main recommendations referred to. I am prepared to take at face value the state ment that the government is studying this recommendation carefully and will announce its policy in due course .

I will, therefore, reserve further comment on it until the legisla tion appears. But 1.n the meantime, I would suggest that the importance of this question emphasizes the need for it being considered in this House on the very highest plain and with our greatest degree of statesmanship. I think that is the position that not only I personally, but my group, will take now, and will continue to take as the debate proceeds. But in some other matters of education, Mr. Speaker, I think I should make some very brief C<;>mments at the moment. January 21 st, 1960. Page 29 .

(Mr. Campbell , cont' d. ): I said a moment ago that there's no indication that the government is paying mu:Jh heed to the financial danger signals that are evidently abroad in the way of tremen dously high interest rates that must be incurred in order to proceed with worthwhile public projects that require borrowing. There is ce rtainly no indication that the Department of Edu cation is prepared to take its own advice that--if we can believe the press reports-.- the Minister was extending to the School Trustees of the province .

I have iiBre a couple of clippings that I'm sure that the most of the members will have read with interest regarding the reports of the speech of the Honourable the Ministe r of Education to the trustees just yesterday. And I would say that if consistency is a jewel , that my honourable friend , the Minister of Education is going to go conspicuously unadorned. I never heard of anything more inconsi stent than the program of this government and the advice that the Honourable Mini ster is reported to have handed out to the school trustees. And I know, Mr.

Speaker, that the Honourable the Minister is not to blame for the headlines that the newspapers put on-I know that and I wouldn't hold him to account for that. But it happens that we find the heading on one of these-the Free Press of· yesterday-"Ed ucation Minister Warns Trustees Spend with Care", Well, that's pretty good. But the heading on the other one in the Tribune of the same date, reporting the same speech, has the heading "Education Spe nding Tops All". And ----I believe them both!

And while I can't hold the Honourable the Minister accountable for the headings , yet he certainly can't deny the second one -the "Education Spending Tops All" because he puts it right into the Speech from the Throne . He glories in the fact -it's mentioned right in there that it's the biggest spending department .. And boy to be the big gest spender of these departments is really something. But let's see what he --- that's what they do in here--- in the governmental activities. But what did he tell the school trustees? If ever there was a case of "do as I say, don't do as I dd' � this is a masterpiece.

"Education Minister, Honourable Stewart McLean, Wednesday warned school trustees to spend money carefully or the government may be forced to step in with a greater degree of control." And I am missing some of it, but the parts that I read are in quotation marks. I'm assuming they are correct -- if they aren't the Honourable the Minister will I am sure make any explanation that he cares to .

"We have now reached a stage in the administra tion of financial affairs where the people of Manitoba generally will expect you to exercise the utmost scrutiny in the expenditure of money under your control ." Well did you ever hear the like of that. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Well I will say this for the Federal Government, that I believe in the Federal Government that the Minister of Finance there was an unwilling, an unwilling , accomplice in the spending program that the government put on.

I have no proof of that, but it appears to me that he was both from the way that he appeared to be re luctant to champion some of the policies in public and then the turnabout that he has recently exhibited and is urging something along this line .

But my honourable friend the Minister of Education , he has been in the forefront of the government in promoting this policy so far as the government is concerne d, and then he walks over across the street and tells the school trustees-one of the most conscientious and hard-h eaded and down-to -earth practical busine ss like groups that you can find -- he tells them, don't spend so much money. And who is res ponsible for them spending the money? The honourable gentleman who sits right over there.

He's the one who got them into this pickle, and having got them delig htfully into it he comes over and makes a speech and says, don't do it. And then, the Education Ministe r, and this is not in quotes, the Education Minister told the trustees the Department of Education was recei ving for approval far too many school building plans which had too few classrooms in relation to other rooms in the school building. And who got them into that?

My honourable friend , the same gentleman -- got them into it , and every member of the front row, that I- - well I didn't .hear them all, everyone that I heard re ported -- everyone of them that went out speaking on the so called new school ·p lan, everyone of them , when they were challenged in the meeting by people who wanted to keep their own local high school, said you don't need to lose your high school -- that will be entirely up to the Division Board.

And they encouraged them to think that they could hold that high school by building up the number of rooms by the addition of these rooms that my honourable friend now criticise s. And just as my honourable friend and his colleagues got them into the high spend ing prog_-ram, so they got them into this matter of putting on rooms that are not classrooms as such. And here again we have quotes, "Audito riums are important" he said "but we are not Page 30 . January 21s t, 1960.

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd.): engaged in the business of providing community centres". Who got them started on the community centres? He did. Nobody else . And the governmel).t's pro gram started them on the community centres. And now he says to them -- after this govern ment having forced them into it, forced them into it, Mr.

Speaker , forced them into it, because they didn't have the courage when they got out into the country to stand up to the recommendation that the commission had made about congregating the people --centralizing, into large rooms , because they didn't have the courage to stand up to that on account of the local resistance to it- they have encouraged this program of paying for rooms that are not classrooms. And then having got into that program the Minister has the effrontery fu go over across the street and lecture the trustees on that program. · Mr. Speaker, it's an amazing situation.

And I want to say to my honourable friends , there are a lot of things good about the program that the gbvernment put in --the basic principles of it our government had put in before. We hadn't gone --(laughter) that's true.

The two basic principles --my honourable friends cannot contradict that --but the unseemly haste with which it was put into effect, by tha!_11 nseemly haste the government has sowed the wind and they are now reaping the whirlwind, and they will reap it to greater extent yet because the building program, Mr. &peaker, is only nicely started and the ideas that my honourable friend is now trying to inculcate with the people, with the school trustees, should have been mentioned to them at that time before-they got into this position.

And when my honourable the member who moved the address in reply to the Speech from the Throne was yesterday wanting an example of a government going too fast, he was preaching on the text of go a little slower- and I think likely that a lot of the other private members of the government group have been singing the same theme --when he was trying to get an example he very kindly went back to the former government's institution of the Hospital Service Program. But the example he should have used was my honourable friend's education program.

If there was ever an example of a government going too fast that was it, And they can't slow down now. And Mr. Speaker, let me tell my honourable friend that if at this stage or any later stage he attempts to put in control from the top, control from the Department of Education which these reports seem to indicate, he is going to be in much more serious trouble than he is now because the people of this proVince will not have the ir educational matters administered from the Department 0f Education. They'll still continue to be administered by the local school boards ,and tbat•J where they should be administered.

J Mr. Speaker, why instead of lecturing the people across the way when they met · their annual convention on "do as I say don't do as I d.o". why didn't the Honourable Minister eblain to them instead, his broken promise about decreasing ta..'l:es to local municipalities and school boards?

The Honourable the Minister and the government are on record as having said in many meetings throughout this province that the injection of these large extra sums of money into the educational system would result in lower taxes to the local municipalities and school boards, .A ...nd it was partially, not wholly, but partially on that basis that they got the approval of this plan. And that promise has been broken, badly broken Mr. Speaker.

And I don't say that everything is bad about the program by any means , it has much merit, but the fact that it has not resulted in doing what the government promised it would do and that it is now running away With the situation as evidenced the concern of the Honourable the Minister himself, is just another example of where the enthusiasm of our friends to out-promise even the CCF · Party a few months ago, has now left them in the situation that they face. That's not the only broken promise. I have mentioned several others and I simply must not go on at any greater length now.

But becanse of the broken promises with regard to crop . insurance, the broken promises with regard to no increases in taxation, the broken promise with regard to decrease in local taxes following the institution of the new program of education, Mr . Speaker, our group says that this government is not entitled to the support of the House. Our group believe that these matters should be brought to the attention of the public and that an amendment should be proposed along those lines. So Mt.

Speak er, I wish to move at this time, seconded by the.Honourable the Me:lnber for Carillon - I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Carillon that the motion be amended by adcling at the end thereof the following words: But this House regrets that Your Honour's Government has failed to implement many of the most important promises it made, January 21st, 1960. Page 31. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

(Mr. Campbell, cont' d. ): and repeated during three election campaigns , to ·the people of Manitoba, Would you give this to the Premier? Mr. Speaker presented the motion . MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speake r, I beg to move seconded by the Honourable Member for Inkster that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: I think, Mr . Minister, that we go back to the other Resolutions . MR . ROBLIN: Please Sir. That would be agreeable . HON .

STERLING LYON (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry): I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Public Works that the first Resolution standing in my name oli the Order Paper be moved. MR. SPEAKER: Moved by the Honourable the Attorney-General , seconded by the Honourable Minister of Public Works that

whereas it is desirable that Rules No.� 9, 27 and 34 of the Rules , Orders and Forms of Proceedings of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba be reviewed and am ended for the purpose of facilitating a more orderly and efficient despatch of the business of the House. And

whereas it may be also desirable that all of the Rules, Or ders and Forms of Proceedings of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba be reviewed and amended for the purpose of facilitating a more orderly and efficient despatch of the business of the House . Therefore

be it Resolved that a Special Select Committee of the House be appointed to consider Rules Nos. 9, 27 and 34 and such other rules as the Committee may decide to re view with a view to recommending such amendments as may be deemed to be in the interests of a more orderly' and efficient conduct of the business of this House , and that the said Comm ittee consists of the following Members: Hon. Mr . Speaker, Hon. Messrs. Lyon, Roblin, and Messrs. Alexander, Campbell , Groves, Molgat, Orlikow, Paulley and Smellie, and that such Committee is hereby authorized to sit Md report during the present session of the House.

Are you ready for the question? MR . LYON: Mr. Speaker, in proposing this Resolution early in the life of this Session I think it will be realized Sir, by all honourable members that we do not have any provision in our rules whereby amendments may be made automatically. In other words we proceed along the Ottawa fashion, and the Ottawa procedure to refer such amendments that may be desired to a Special Committee of the Hquse to assist Your Honour in the consideration of advisable amendment s for our standing rules.

The resolution, as you will have noticed Sir, points out that it is the desire to deal with three main rules of the House during the course of the sittings of this Committ ee . I should mention that also there will be consideration given, I am sure to other rule changes which may . come from other members of the Committ ee , certain rule changes which will be recommended by the Clerk of the House and others who have to do with the mechanical administrative processes , some of which are laid down in the Rules. If I might for a moment deal very very briefly with the proposals with respect to Rules B, 27 and 34.

Rule 9 as Your Honour well knows, at the present time calls for the appoint ment of a Deputy Speaker as soon as the address is agreed to in answer to His Honour's Speech. The actual practice of the Hous e for the recent past has been that the Deputy Speaker who is also Chairman of the Committee of the Whole House,a ctually sits in that capacity on a good many occasions before he is formally appointed. Figures show that, going back to 1956 , the Chairman or the Deputy Speaker who is subsequently appointed sat as Chairman of the House some six times during that '56 session prior to his appointment .

In 1957 he sat some three times prior to his appointment . In '58 during the first regular session he sat four times prior to his appointment . In 1959 in the regular session he sat eight times prior to the dis solution of the House , and in the session last just concluded a few months ago, he sat twice before his appointment.

And so think it's apparent from what has been the actual practice of the House that it would probably be in the interests of expediency and the interests of a proper mana gement of our affairs if this appointment were made earlier in the session so that the actual practice which has been adopted would then be validated. I may say that I don't wish to prolong the discussions on these points but I may say that this is the practice in other juris dictions , and further details on this subject can be given when the committee sits. Page 32. January 21st, 1960. j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j

(Mr. Ly on, cont'd. )� Rule 27 . That of colirse deals with the debates on matters of urgent public importance.

I would point out Sir, that the only desire in this connection is to bring the wording of this rule into confo=ity with Standing Order 26 of the House of Commons , and I think that that would involve and certainly the Committee will have to consider this, it would involve first of all that debate adjournments under this particular rule wouw involve first of all the administrative responsibility of the government; secondly, that they would be so pres sing that the public interests would suffer if they were not proceeded with immediately; and · thirdly, that the urgency referred to in the rules would refer to urgency of debate when the ordinary rules would not permit debate to be carried on at some subsequent time which was not contrary to the public interests. \Vi.th respect to Rule 34, the Committee will , if it is approved of Sir, will receive suggestions that the debate on the Throne Speech should be limited to some specified period as is done in othet j.rrisdictions.

I refer of course to the United Kingdom, to the HoU:se of Com mons at Ottawa, to the Province of Saskatchewan, to the Province of Alberta and many other commonwealth jurisdictions which might be mentioned. That is the intention with respect to the proposed amendment to Rule 34 . As I have mentioned there will probably be other more routine amendments -- I call them sometimes sanitation amendments because we have to clean up from time to time the rules of the House and bring them more into accordance with what the practice of House evolves to.

I feel there is very little else I can say with respect to this Resolution, Mr. Speaker and I would hope that it would be carried by the House. MR. PREFO NTAINE: I have no objection to amendments to Rules 9 and 27·, but I believe that with respect to Rule 34 it is a different stor.r. The Minister tells us that he would like to bring our rule to read somewhat the same as the rule that applies to this particular subject in the House of Commons in Great Britain and in Ottawa.

Well, this particular rule is a new rule as far as Manitoba is concerned in the sense that it did not exist when I first entered this Legis lature •. There was no restriction on the number .of amendments that could be brought to the Speech from the Throne in 1935, 1936. I believe it was ame·nded only in 1940. I have before me here the little red books for 1924 and this rule does not appear that we have now, Rule 34. It appears in the Rules, Orders and Forms of Procee dings as of 1940. Now, at that time, Ir e member the debates very well, Mr.

Speaker, and I remember that the Leader of the Opposition who is now the Lieutenant-Gov ernor, stated that this was aimed at the Opposition to try and de prive them of some rights of speaking on this debate. Now, I don't know if I am in favour of having this House pass the same Legislation as they have. We must not forget that in the Brit British House of Commons they have 630 members. In Ottawa they have 265. This is a much smaller parliament. rthink there should be ample time for discussion.

It .seems to me that this is aimed rather at this side of the House because it is this side of the Housethat generally takes a more active

part in the debate on the Speech from the Throne. I certainly have my re stri.ctious with respect to amending this rule. MR. CAJI-iPBELL: Mr . Speaker, I wonder if I might ask a question of the Honourable the Attorney-General . Would the mover of the resolution be prepared to delete the word "and amended" in line number three and the same two words in line number 7, so that those of us who intend to support the resolution would not be committing ourselves that we are agreeing in advance to amending the Rules .

I'm all in favor of them being reviewed, and quite fra:nldy I think that some of them should be amended, but I'd prefer to not commit myself before I go into the Committee , and if the honourable mover of the resolution will take this as a question Mr. Speaker , I'd be prepared to agree if these words were omitted in those two lines . MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I think that the Leader of the Opposition has brought forth a very valid point.

It does say as he has pointed out, that it is desirable that Rules 9, 27 and 34 be amended in the actual terminology of the resolution itself. I would suggest and join with him in that. I might say that this matter gives some consideration in respect of the three rules that are listed here as is known, and I might give warning now to the Committee that there will be other propositions of changes from us , -- and it won't be necessary for me to say what they are at this present time-- but I do think that the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition has a valid point which could be accepted by the government. MR.

SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? January 21st, 1960. Page 33 .

MR. LYON: Mr . Speaker , if no one else wishes to speak to the resolution, with respect to the proposed amendment by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, perhaps he would agree with this suggestion, having in mirid the fact that it was only the intention of the government to point out those particular rules upon which attention would be focused. Perhaps it would suit his purposes and the purposes of the Leader of the CCF Party, if the words -- if after the word "amend ed" , these words were inserted "amended where deemed advisable".

I can see the point that he makes, but if we were to say here that the --be , reviewed and amended where deemed advisable for the purpose of facilitating a more orderly and efficient despatch of the business of the House. If I might have the consent of the House, Mr . Speaker, to that proposed amendment, my seconder would be quite prepared to have that inserted. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister have the approval of the House? MR. CAMPBELL: That would be perfectly satisfactory to us , Mr . Speaker. MEMBERS: Agreed. Mr. Speaker put the question and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR .

SPEAKER : Proposed motion by the Honourable the Attorney-General. MR . LYON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Public Works, that the Select Committee on Privileges and Elections be instructed to consider the Election Act with a view to recommending such amendments as may be deemed to be neces sary to bring the said Act into conformity with present day practices , and to provide a more orderly and efficient conduct of the elections in the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker put the question. MR . LYON: Mr .

Speaker, again the government felt it desirable that the Select Stand ing Committee on Privileges and Elections should be given this authority in furtherance of the undertaking of the government at the last session that certain sections of the Election Act, if not all portions of the Act, would be reviewed in the near future by all members of this House. Furthermore , there is one amendment which according to the Order Paper, will be introduced by myself tomorrow, which will immediately be referred to this Select standing Committee for consideration.

I think it's accepted on all sides of the House that there are certain portions of the Election Act, which if not out of date , perhaps do not readily conform with practices which occur in elections in this day and age , and certainly, I think with benefit to all , certain of these sections can be canvassed by all sections of the House, and I am certain that some better re commendations can come forward which will meet what we want to find in the Election Act of this · province. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speak er, just a comment or two.

I welcome this resolution be cause it was one which we raised after the last election. There is one comment that I would make however, to the resolution itself. I hope it doesn't mean exactly as it says, because if we read the proposed resolution "with a view to recommending such amendments as may be deemed necessary to bring the said Act into conformity with present day practices", I suggest , Mr. Speaker , that in many instances it's present day practices that we want to get away from , rather than the Act itself being brought into conformity with.

So with that reservation on the resolution, it will have our support. ·MR. CAMPBELL: Mr . Speaker, are we to take it that my honourable friend, like myself, is protesting against the present day practices as demonstrated at the most recent ele"ction? Mr. Speaker put the question anqfollowing a voice vote, declared the motion carried. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker , I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce that the House do now adjourn. Mr. Speaker put the question and following a voice vote, declared the motion carried, and the House adjourned until 2:30 the following afternoon.

Page 34 . January 21st, 1960.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-2-3
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 2nd hansardpdf 3.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	cad1835e89bf25f1d759ac569a874b39e2323b7f

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).