Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 26B (30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-26b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

TIM E: 8:00 p.m. THE LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y of MAN ITOBA Thursday, March 24, 19 77 CONCURRENT COMM ITTEES OF SU PPLY ESTIMA TES - MUN ICIP AL AFF AIRS MR. CHAI RMAN, D. James Walding (St. Vital): Order please. We have a quorum, gentlemen, the Committee will come to order. I would refer honourable members to Page 47 in their Estimates Books, Department of Municipal Affairs. Resolution 90, Municipal Assessments (

a) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, I had a couple of questions. On the reassessment of these various areas, how do you arrive at the decision in the order in which they wi II be reassessed? Is it done with the co-operation of the Union of Municipalities or with the individual municipalities or is it all done out of your office? MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Minister. MR. UR USKI: Mr. Chairman, number one, first of all you have the time element which by legislation is a requirement. Secondly, also on need.

Really, it depends on the amount of development and transactions that have taken place in that municipality over the last number of years, so a municipality that likely has not had that much development take place or changes in land transactions and the like, would not proceed as quickly as some other municipality which has experienced a great amount of development. MR. McKENZIE: The second question, is there a fee if you appeal to the Municipal Board? MR.

URU SKI: Yes, I'm informed that if you make an appeal to the Municipal Board, you are talking about assessment I presume, it's $5.00 for the first parcel and $2.00 for every additional parcel of land. And a refund if the appeal is successful. MR. McKENZIE: I have some other questions but it will come under the Local Government District and I th ink that's under the next section, is it? MR. URU SKI: That is correct, Municipal Services and Research. Mr.

Chairman, before we broke this afternoon, we had considerable discussion from honourable members and especially from the Member for Birtle-Russell dealing with assessment procedures and the like. I want to indicate to him that he has been suggesting and indicating that there should be some approaches of the province in its procedures and techniques in the assessment process and dealing with land on the basis of use, not of productivity but of use. They're both very close to each other.

The fact of the matter is that the assessment will take into account the productivity of a parcel of land based on the categorization of the soil quality and the type of an area. Now, whether the owner of that property wishes to put that capab ility or that soil quality to that particular use is another matter which the Assessment Branch cannot indicate one way or the other.

However, I want to indicate, in known areas in the U.S. in areas which have had a lot of residential development and commercial development in the periphery of urban areas, there have been programs by States set up dealing with what is, I presume, known in those areas as restrictive agreements whereby if an individual intends to - and predominantly or precisely in the case of keeping agricultural land in agricultural production - where an owner of the land would make a commitment to that municipal district indicating that he wishes to continue farming for say, five, ten or fifteen years and would be prepared to enter into an agreement with that municipal district, that it would take a lower or a different assessment as if that land was totally agricultural ratherthan taking into potential some of the development that has cropped up around it.

It's a type of agreement which, if the member is serious about retaining agricultural land for agricultural purposes, I believe, would be a method that he might be prepared to consider, and I th row that out, I'd like to hear some comment from honourable memb ers on some type of concept of that nature. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GR AHAM: Seeing as how the thing was suggested to me, Mr. Chairman, I would say that I would certainly be prepared to look at that concept.

However, I must reiterate that in the past we have looked at roll backs, tax deferrals and other means in which we tried to alleviate the problem. But at that point in time, and I'm talking about six years ago, we were not prepared at that time to change the assessment. We were sti ll going to assess it and we would give the deferral or the rollback. I am suggesting that the assessment should reflect the use, rather than using some artificial means of evasion of the tax. If the assessment reflects that, then there is no need for any artificial means of deferment or rollback. MR.

URU SKI: If I understand the honourable member, is he suggesting the level of assessment is primarily indicated by the marketplace and the level wh ich is reflected is by the highest and best use of the land. Are you suggesting that there possibly should be a second value of assessment which ignores what possible or potential levels of use that land may have? 115 7

Thursday, March 24, 19 77 MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I am suggesting that the assessment ignore the potential commercial value of the land, or whatever value you want to place on it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 90{a)-pass. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HEN DERSON: Mr. Chairman, you have said "pass," I don't know whether I should bring it in now or not, but I do think there are quite a few things about assessment that possibly a great deal of people don't understand.

I'm just th inking probably that it's maybe a field that there should be a study done on in the next number of years, really, because I think a lot of the people just don't know how it is applied and what things should be taken into consideration. I think probably if we had a, I don't know whether it would be in the form of a committee to study it or someth ing like this, I th ink that a lot of good information that was really real and meaningful would come out.

Myself, I would be in favour of the idea if over the next number of years if something was done because ever since I came into this legislature we have been complaining about assessments and rollbacks and so forth. I think there should be a committee sit down that just really works on assessment for a considerable time and considers all the different things that go into it and then maybe come up with some sort of a recommendation. The way it is now, people aren't happy with it, it seems. MR. URU SKI: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member for his suggestion.

I would like to get some further views from him or other honourable members as to what type of form that kind of study should take. As you recall, and the Honourable Membe r for Birtle-Russell raised it, we sort of hammered around that very issue in 19 70 or '71 on the assessment and we just didn't corne out with any damn thing and we just hammered each other over that issue and nobody, I think, came out any better for it.

Now, if the honourable member is suggesting some other type, or some suggestion of what kind of a study we should take, I would like to hear views of honourable members on that, whether there should be a review by some outside body or someth ing like that, I would like to hear some suggestions. MR.

HEN DERSON: I just have to think back at the different things that have been said from time to time and I've been at a couple of meetings where the town residents were, and they talked about rural people having their residence wh ich wasn't assessed and where they had a real good residence and then they're saying, well we're assessed high on this. I'm not talking aboutthe tax now or how the mill rates ... MR. UR US KI: You're ta lking about the procedure. MR. HENDER SON: .. how it's appl ied.

But I do feel that if a group was to consider the assessment of agricultural land in connection with town property and we're talking here every once in a while about fine residences in rural areas which have a very small tax assessment. Now whether they're right or wrong, or whether the farmer's right or wrong, I think there should be a you know really takes committee that sits down and goes over this' a look at everything in it, not just from the farmer's side or from the rural person's side. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 90 {a). The Honourable Member for Morris. MR.

JORG ENSON: I doubt very much if any conclusions can ever be arrived at on the assessment until you arrive at the basis of the problem, and that is, the taxing of farm land for education purposes. You remove that and I think you remove 90 percent of your problems. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 90{a)- pass; 90{

b) Other Expenditures. The Honoµrable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EI NARSON: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could give us a breakdown of Other Expenditures. There's something presented from last year. MR. URU SKI: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there's been an increase in printing, stationery and supplies; a slight increase in postage, telephone and telegraph, automobile expenses, and pretty well everything else has held the same. Those are the th ree areas with the greatest increase. MR. EI NARSON: No, Mr. Chairman, I rea lly wanted a breakdown of the full expenditures, Mr. Chairman.

Sorry, the Minister misunderstood me. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, the expenditures are such, I'll give you the larger figures' 5.5 for furniture and furnishings and office supplies; $43,000 for printing, stationery and supplies; $ll,OOO for postage, telephone and teleg raph; $3,000 for eq uipment; $242,000 for computer and related expenditures; $139,5 00 for automobiles; $7 ,400 for books, newspapers and periodicals; $1,000 for freight express and cartage; $109,000 for travelling expenses; and education and training $1,400 for a total of $563,800 and there's shared costs with the municipalities of $422,8 00 for a net cost of $141,000 to the province. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EI NARSON: Mr. Chairman, in the item education training' is that part of training assessors or ... MR. URU SKI: Mr. Chairman, it's the provisions for payment of tuition fees associated with education courses and staff upgrading, yes. We have provision to hire 14 new assessors this year, in the budget, which will be trained over a four-vear oeriorl 115 8

Thursday, March 24, 19 77 MR. EI NARSON: What were the number of assessors last year for the province? MR . UR USKI: Eighty. I gave that figure, Mr. Chairman, it's in the record. There's no new ones, there were no new additions last year. MR. EINARSON: So there's 82 plus the fourteen now that you are going to train this year, is that it? MR. UR USKI: Fourteen is included in the 82. MR. EIN ARSO N: Oh, 14 included in the 82. MR. UR USKI: Right. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Gla dstone. MR. FERGUSON : Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to ask the Minister what qualifications the assessors have and what kind of training they've had, just basically what is involved here? MR. UR USKI: Mr. Chairman, the department recruits usually at the high school education level with a four-year training period within the department. They have some related backg round in construction, farm buildings, real estate, agriculture would be an asset to any candidate for the job, but there is an internal training program and a four-year training program.

I believe there's also additional courses which an assessor can obtain through the university or Red River, the Appraisal Institute, which would assist him in upgrading himself within the department as well. MR. FERGUSON: Then all the present assessors in the field have gone through this four-year training period and the rest of the qualifications the Minister has now stated? MR. URU SKI: All of them would except those that may have been hired within the last couple of years, I ike last year there were no new ones, so it wou Id be in the last 2 or 3 years, who are completing their training program. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: That's all, thank you Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, in your automobile expenses and travel expenses, could the Minister give me, in a very rough figure, approximately what percentage of the automotive fuel would be obtained from the central garage. MR. UR USKI: There wou Id be very little in the assessment branches, most of the assessors are in points outside of Winnipeg. MR. GRAHAM: They are purchasing almost anywhere then. MR.

URU SKI: Except Dauphin and Brandon where there would be central facilities forfueling up but if they would be out of town, and most of the time they are out of town, it would be wherever they happen to be. MR. GRAHAM: And if they purchase from a central garage or Dauphin or Brandon facilities, is the 2 cent tax on gas for Autopac, is that included in the cost then? MR. URUSKI: As a department with internal use per mile, the department does not pay.

I believe there is an internal arrangement between Public Works and MPIC dealing with that very item but, from the departmental point of view, there is a flat per mile fee that the department pays for the use of the cars to provincial garage irrespective of where they might buy the gasoline or what price or whatever might be and then Public Works and MPIC would resolve that issue. MR. GR AHAM: That's all thanks. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, is there much of a turnover in the staff of the Assessment Branch?

I was talking at one assessment branch one time and they were talking amongst themselves on salaries, and what they stated to me was to the effect that many people were leaving the Assessment Branch because the amount of work they had ahead of them and to do and the remuneration wasn't very good. So I was just wondering, is there much of a turnover or dropping out of staff? · MR. URU SKI: Mr. Chairman' from the records that we've got going back to 1971 and to date, the turnover is not that great. The average turnover was 7.1 percent and it went to a high of II percent in 1973.

I believe during that period of time, there was a gap, I believe there was also a sa lary gap between the province and the City of Winnipeg' where some of the assessors moved to better paying jobs so the turnover in 1973-74 was slightly higher than the 10 or II percent range but on the average in the last 5 or 6 years it's averaged out to about 7 percent which isn't an overly high turnover but turnover for those couple of years there was a slightly higher MR. HEN DERSON: So there has been an increase in their salary to try to keep them in the Assessment Branch and in assessment work. MR.

URU SKI: Yes, there are several th ings. There's also the nature of the job which requires a lot of patience and understanding really in dealing with people all over the province and in the nature of travelling and being away from home and the likes, so it's a combination of items. But the salaries, of course the department would directly not have any input in that because most of the assessors would be in a collective agreement which would be negotiated on behalf through the union. MR. HEN DERSON: Could you give me the approximate salary of an assessor, I mean separate 115 9

Thursday, March 24, 19 77 from his car allowance and expense allowance. I just mean an average, I don't want it exactly. MR . UR USKI: Approximately the starting salary would be around the $9,000 mark and then, of course, there is four years of training in that area to work up. It is like an apprenticeship course with a starting salary in the $8,000 range. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HENDE RSON: That's okay for now. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Meer for Rock Lake. MR. EIN ARSON: Mr. Chairman, the Member for BirtleRussell posed the question that I had in mind, so I'll forego mine. MR .

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 90 (b)-pass. Resolution 90: Resolved that ther e be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,356,400 for Municipal Affairs-pass. Resolution 91 Municipal Services and Research (

a) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EIN ARSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would be interested to know what is the cost here in providing water services to the townsite of Churchill? Could they give us a figure on that? Apparently, I see this is not within the utilities of providing water service to other areas of the province. There's a separate identity here? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. UR USKI: Mr. Chairman, the program has been discontinued and it really wasn't as the member indicates. The program used to cost $25,5 00 but has been discontinued. MR.

EIN ARSON: Well then how is the water provided now then, if that's the point of interest here? MR. URU SKI: Mr. Chairman, the redevelopment of the townsite of Churchill is virtually complete and the system is in place and the local council and the townsite operate their own water system. MR. EIN ARSON: That's fine, thanks. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Meer for Gladstone. MR. FERGUS ON: Well, I don't th in I< we have too much, Mr.

Chairman, except that I would like to · ask a bit of a breakdown in the distribution between the government departments supplying service to local government districts and municipalities. If he could just give a rough breakdown, there's very little difference between this year and last year. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, there is no distinct line of breakdown between the two departments. They have all been integrated. The increase in costs in this branch are attributable to salary increase and to increase in computer costs.

This branch is responsible for producing all municipal assessment rolls and tax rolls for the municipalities and through the municipal services officers maintains close liaison with the secretary-treasurers and municipal staffs. That's predominantly the role. Now the cost between providing services for municipalities versus LGDs is not broken down. The staffs were amalgama ted to make a better use of the staff in the field so that municipal services officers would handle both LGDs and municipalities with in the region that they would service. MR.

FERGUSON: Both the LGD s and the municipalities are satisfied with the service that is going on? MR. UR USKI: I would indicate, Mr. Chairman, that the liaison between the department and municipalities has been excellent and the response between the services officers and municipal councils has been A-1 . No doubt about it. MR. FERGUSON: That's all, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, I have a long list here of people that have signed a petition from the Pine River area, seeking information for sewer and water rights within their village.

Now I wonder if the Minister could describe to me how these people go ahead and get that development. I know the first problem is assessment of the area, the base to find enough resources to proceed with that. I would be most grateful if the Minister would outline the procedure that these people should follow. Should they go through the local government district procedure or - and I can certainly see no reason why they shouldn't enjoy the rights that all the other towns and villages in the province enjoy. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. URU SKI: Mr.

Chairman, certainly the procedure in the LGDs is no different than within any other elected or municipality in the province. The LOG has an elected council.

I believe that the townspeople, it they haven't already, they are in the process of approaching the council of that area, who would request an assessment to be made as to what would be involved in the cost or a survey, and I presume that that survey would be either undertaken on their own or through the Water Services Board to determine what kind of costs there would be, and in conjunction with the Department of Agriculture and the Water Services Board that matter could be reviewed.

Then when those costs are known likely council would want to hold a meeting within that community to inform the residents saying, "Here's what you want. Here is several alternatives as to how tar sewer and 1160

Thursday, March 24, 1977 water, or sewer whichever the community desires and here are the costs of it". A decision can be made by the community and the council of that area, that is the procedure. MR. McKENZIE: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, does the Minister expect any financial problems for these people to meet this obligation? I only have some bits and pieces of information. Birch River is one community that projected and went in, I guess just with water. I believe they did go - they haven't had that pleasant an experience from what I can gather.

And I suggest that under the local government district these people might have the same problem or maybe they won't. I wonder if the Minister could advise me on that? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I don't know the actual engineering advice on the particular program, but there is no doubt that any community, whatever size and state, that any fairly large municipal work or expenditure is a concern to all the people of that community.

And that is one of the reasons that the community should be involved with their council to really look at what the ramifications of any type of a project of that nature really means to them .

The member well knows that up until a number of years ago there was no assistance to communities dealing with sewer and water and there has been since three or four years ago the program under the Department of Agriculture Water Services Branch, where there is a cost-sharing and a loan and grant system over, I believe it is, 8 mills on sewer and 12 mills on water services and then the remaining portion over that is shared between a grant of the province on a 50-50 basis and a municipal portion on the loan basis.

So that there is some assistance, but there is just no doubt that if the community is fairly spread out and the services desired are fairly elaborate or large and there is a lot of trenching and digging to do, it is going to place a fairly heavy financial burden on that community. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a few questions regarding the computer facilities used by the department, and I think the Minister indicated there was a fairly substantial increase in the cost of computer services this year.

I was wondering if the department had changed from one computer facility to another? MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. URU SKI: Mr. Chairman , basically the facilities are the same, the computer is the same. The major increase is not in actual computer hardware costs, but in postage, stationery and the like - and suppl ies. MR. GR AHAM: Could the Minister indicate what computer they are using at the present time? MR. UR USKI: Manitoba Data Services. MR. GRAHAM: And that is the one that is tied in with Manitoba Telephone? MR. URUSKI: That is correct. MR.

GR AHAM: When did you switch to that one, when Telephone took it over? MR. URUSKI: We have always been with that same computer through the Government Computer Centre and it was just a natural transition with no change at all really in our operations. MR. GR AHAM: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I was just wondering if there is any of these municipal services costs recovered from the municipalities when you provide this service? MR.

UR USKI: All the Data Processing Services that the branch uses are recovered from the municipalities but as far as staff, no. consideration and the Cabinet and the Committee of Cabinet, the Provincial Land-Use Committee, will be dealing with this matter in a number of weeks. We pretty well have to deal with the specifics of every LG D and how it affects each LG D. The staff of the Departments of Agriculture and Renewable Resources are bringing forward a proposal dealing with that matter. MR.

BAN MAN: As the Minister is probably aware, a lot of these areas because of these lands now being vested in the Crown are having difficulty as far as expansion of either theirf arming operations and different things, and I just note at this time that there are a lot of these lands which were in agricultural use before and because of the Crown now taking them over they have been lost as far as tax base to the local government district. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I don't think that's quite the case.

If there were lands that were utilized for agriculture there is no doubt that leases have been available either for grazing, for further development into crops and/or grass, and those lands would be available in the municipalities as they have always been, taking a portion of the rental for municipal tax purposes, they were receiving a portion. And I believe as early as last year those lands were being placed on the assessment roles like any other lands, municipal lands in the province and the direct municipal taxes would go directly to the LGD or municipalities as the case may be.

That is a service provided as an assistance, advice and whatever liaison between government departments and municipal affairs and the municipalities is a provincial cost. 1161

Thursday, March 24, 19 77 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder in the past several years, and I think it dates back probably more than that, the local government districts, and. I am speaking particularly of the ones in southeastern Manitoba, have been asking for some consideration with regard to the Crown lands that were returned to the government dealing with the times when things were a little tougher and people couldn't afford to pay for the taxes, they were taken back for tax sale.

The local government districts because they wanted to expand their tax bases have I think made representation to the government asking that these lands be returned to the local government districts. I wonder if there's any progress been made in that direction and what the intention is of the government in that regard? MR. URU SKI: Mr. Chairman, there have been, as a matter of fact, varied comments from different LGDs but there has been a general desire by most of them to do exactly as the member indicates. The lands that went under tax sale would be returned to the LGDs.

This matter is, as a matter of fact, under very active MR. BANMAN: What is the government's feeling with regard to if and when they return the lands to the local government district would the sale of those lands come under the jurisdiction of the local government district or would the Provincial Government be involved? MR. URUS KI: That policy determination as to what the local government district wants to do, the council will have to decide once that determination is made by the province. If those lands are turned over to the LG D it would become a municipal matter. MR.

CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I had one more question on the computer services. I understand that at the present time the Manitoba Hospital Services Commission is presently changing some of the programming on their computer to provide for the possibility of fee-for-service. I was wo ndering if it would be possible or what the difficulty would be in linking that computer system into the municipal one, in say a year-end billing on municipal taxes? MR. URU SKI: Mr. Chairman, I would like to know what we would accomplish by that? MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I understand that this is probably, I don't think it's policy yet, but I understand that the Manitoba Hospital Services Commission is changing the programming of their computers to provide for the possibil ity of fee-for-service billing. MR. UR USKI: Fee-for-service billing on what? MR. GR AHAM: On hospital services. Now under the previous system would it be much difficulty to transfer that billing through the municipal machine onto the municipal tax rolls? MR. UR USKI: Mr.

Chairman, if I understand it the Health Services billing would be people and the municipal taxation billing would be land and description as it appears on the rolls. And really, the computer itself, the hardware itself, may very well be the same computer but the programming for both of them would be completely different, the software, the input and information. So that the machine may be the very same machine but the information that is required and computed in that could be completely different and the needs of the two programs are completely different. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I don't know what the government policy is nor their intentions, but I believe in some other jurisdictions that Health Services billings are of necessity, if they are unable to collect them, are added on to the municipal tax rolls. MR. URU SKI: Mr. Chairman, that is right, but that is dealt with, I believe, at the local council level, at the municipal level and they are dealt with I presume on the parcel of land where there is a residence. Primarily the billing would take place on that, if there would be one. MR.

GRAHAM: So in essence then there would be no tie-in whatsoever between the two computer services? MR. UR USKI: That is correct, there wouldn't be. The council would make a decision on an individual basis as the case may be of non-payment or failure of payment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HENDE RSON: Mr. Chairman, a little earl ier there you were talking about local government districts repossessing certain portions of land when taxes were not paid up. I understand that at the present time the local government districts, at the present once they possess land, do not resell it back.

I was just wondering, by what you said, are you considering the possibility of selling some of these parcels back to certain individuals? MR. URU SKI: Mr. Chairman, the lands that are now administered by the province, it's really a historical matter, it goes back many years. When the lands went under tax sale many years ago in the LG Ds, the province took over the administration of them. Now we are re-examining the entire issue and trying to determine which lands were actually tax-sale lands from the LGD s that went into the Crown land system and we are looking at the whole issue, yes. MR.

HENDE RSON: So in other words it could be that they may go up for bid at some time? MR. URU SKI: That is correct, that could very well happen, yes. MR. HENDERSON: Sounds like a se nsible idea. 1162

Thur sday, March 24, 1977 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, is it correct to say that the Crown lands formerly owned by the LG Ds and under administration and other Crown lands, that the taxes and the assessments are approximately the same as private lands and that the municipalities do not lose any taxes thereon for those lands that are rented? MR.

UR USKI: Prior to, I believe, about two years ago, there was a flat fee payment by leaseholders to the Crown for the leases, and a portion of that went to the, I think 50 percent, 50 percent of the payment went to municipalit ies in lieu of taxation. However, Crown lands as of two years ago were placed on the assessment rolls and they were assessed like any other land in the area.

There is an actual tax statement now issued on the lands irrespective of whether there are any lease charges and in the last number of years there have been no lease charges, because primarily of the low cattle prices, and most of the lands were used by catt lemen and the lease fees, based on economic rent, were waived by the Department of Ag riculture. MR. ADAM: My question was, that the municipality does not lose any money because the lands are Crownowned? MR . URU SKI: Crownowned and administered by the Department of Agriculture as agricultural lands, there is no loss of revenue to the RMs and the LGDs. MR.

CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: Mr. Chairman, I think possibly there is a little bit of a misunderstanding. As I take it, yesterday the Minister of Renewable Resources said that the wild I ife management areas were not under the same system. MR. URU SKI: That is correct, they are administered - that's why I made my point the way I made it - lands that are agricultural Crown lands administered by the Department of Agriculture, are the lands that I was speaking of.

Those under the Department of Renewable Resources under wildlife management areas and resource projects, have no connection to this at all. A MEMBER: There are no taxes at all. MR. URUSKI: By legislation, historically there have been no taxes paid on resource-held land. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: That's okay, Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to distinguish between the two. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EIN ARSO N: Mr.

Chairman, I think this is something that is relatively new in the last few years, about the government getting involved in purchasing private land for wildlife preservation and this is something that the municipal ities - this is something that I was talking about yesterday. We were talking about acquiring taxes in lieu of ... and this is what we are asking about. This is a total loss, then, to the municipalities, there is no one collecting taxes from this property. MR. URU SKI: Mr.

Chairman, that legislation, I'm informed, has been on the books for many years and in fact, if the member well recalls, a great portion of the Resource project of purchasing marginal lands came under the FRED Program which was signed in '67 and in fact dealt with lands as part of a rehabil itative program dealing with marginal lands and the Honourable Member for Rock Lake should recall that that ag reement started in '66 and has continued on with it ending this year, in '77. MR. EIN ARSON: Mr.

Chairman, I don't dispute the fact the Minister makes, that this has been on the books since 19 66-67, but the point I make is that it's been exercised to a much greater extent, I believe, and if it isn't, I would like to ask the Minister how much land has been bought for the preservation of wildlife in the last few years, opposed to, say, when it was first started? MR. UR USKI: Mr. Chairman, I wish I could answer that question but the honourable members dealt with the Minister of Renewable Resources' Estimates.

I believe that in those ten years there was a set amount of so many thousands of dollars annually set aside in the program for that very specific matter, for the last ten years. Under that program, those lands were purchased throughout the province. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: Mr. Chairman, the Mem ber for Rock Lake asked a question. My understanding was it is in the figure of 17 3,000 acres that have been purchased for wildlife management areas.

I think this is where the concern of the Member for Rock Lake comes in, that there has been a very escalating deal on the part of the government in purchasing land and it's definitely taking a lot of acreage out of assessment that municipalities possibly were using. MR. UR USKI: Mr.

Chairman, as a matter of fact I held am eeting with a number of municipalities in the Rossburn area as late as about three weeks ago and that matter I raised with them and in fact the municipalities themselves, the municipal councillors and reeves raised the point of saying that in most of the areas where this type of land was purchased for wildlife management areas, they wholly concurred in the program.

They did raise some concern, as was raised by the Honourable Member for Rock Lake the other day, about the liaison between the department and the municipalities, but there is great concurrence in the type of program that the department has undertaken. I believe that there are conflicts from time 1163

Thursday, March 24, 19 77 to time about the use of the land after it's placed in the management area because there are some instances where land could be used for hay cutting and the.like and some conflicts run in, and those issues pretty well have to be resolved on a case by case basis. MR. CHAI RMAN: I would remind honourable members that we have disposed of the Department of Renewable Resources. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HONOUR ABLE SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet) : Mr. Chairman, I was going to make that very point.

I would like to add, however, that it is not only the FRED Program but ARDA generally, across the province, that has brought in two alternate land-use programs under Renewable Resources and prior to that, Mines and Resources. But it's part of a Federal/Provincial arrangement, province-wide. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 91 {a)-pass; 91 {

b) Other Expenditures-pass. Resolution 91 : Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $898,400 for Municipal Affairs pass. Resolution 92, Municipal Pla nning Service {

a) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: Mr. Chairman, I think that something we would like to get straight to start with, is it six or seven, now which involves the setting up of planning areas in the province? MR. UR USKI: Six. MR. FERGUSON: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I th ink that the first thing that we would like to ask would be, we are quite aware of the fact that this is a new Act and we're also aware of the fact that it's going to have great implications in the rural area of Manitoba and we would like to know, up to this point, how the Act is being brought about.

Do we have separate areas? What are the involvements of the municipalities? I th ink we will start off very slowly and ask, is the province being broken down into separate planning areas? MR. URU SKI: No, Mr. Chairman, the province is not being broken down into any sepa rate areas.

From the planning assistance point of view yes, there are district offices where we provide planning advice to district municipalities, but as far as the planning of planning districts, each group of municipalities, whichever they may be, two or more may form a planning district, so there is no pre determined area which the province is involved in in planning districts. MR. FERGUSON: Could we start at the point of how many areas has the province been broken down into? MR. UR USKI: In Planning Service? MR. FERGUSON: Yes. MR.

UR USKI: In Planning Service, we have the Winnipeg office which handles applications into the Interlake and south of Winnipeg; we have the eastern region which office is in Beausejour, which handles the east and the south of Steinbach areas out of the Beausejour office; and we have the Dauphin office which handles the Parklands region; and we have the Brandon Field Office which handles the southwest region; we have the south-central field office which is also out of Winnipeg which handles the Portage and goes down to the U.S. border, Stanley and Rhineland area; and we have the Thompson Field Office which is in Thompson, which handles north of 53.

MR. FERGUSON: I take it there are seven planning areas basically in the province. In the event MR. UR USKI: That's only for administration only, for the department, but not from the district point of view. Just for the administration of the department to give advice to the municipalities. District-wise, I could give the honourable member some information as to what is happen ing in the formation of districts and that will probab ly give him some idea as to what is happening throughout the province.

We have a district that has been before the Municipal Board, a planning district which includes the municipality of St. Andrews, St. Clements and the Town of Selkirk, which is in the process offorming a planning district of its own. We have the proposed district of North and South Cypress, Carberry and Glenboro. Those groups of municipalities have banded together and have made appl ication to the province to form a district unto themselves. So that any group of municipalities may form a district.

The administration of planning and advice of planning is carried out by those areas that I originally mentioned, but districts can be formed, just whatever the municipal councils of that particular area decide upon. It's really up to each group of councils to decide upon how large a district or how small a district they wish to form. MR. FERGUSON: Well, then, Mr.

Chairman, could we use the area of basically what would be my constituency, which would be the south-central, and could I ask then, supposing two or three orfour municipalities went together, and the other municipalities in the area felt that they didn't want to belong to that area, do they automatica lly stay out until such time as they want to come in, or what is the ... ? MR. URUSKI: Normally speaking, what would happen is that if there was a desire of two or three municipalities to band together, that's the way it would work.

If there would be some municipalities who were "iffies and andies" and couldn't make up their mind, that's the way the matter would sit, that 1164

Thur sday, March 24, 1977 the municipality would not be placed in that predicament. However, there may be a case - and I am now using the hypothetica l, it hasn't arisen - there may be an instance where a municipality may be caught in the middle of a group of municipalities that want to join and then there may be an appl ication of those municipalities to the Minister, I believe, to act under the legislation to place that municipality in that district.

But I would say that, from my point of view, I would be very reluctant, in fact, adamant to do that because I don't think you will achieve anything in the pl anning area by forcing someone to do something that they do not desire. I would think that the only way that we will achieve the results of real and honest planning in an area is by desire of the elected councils of that area wanting to do something about it and I believe that municipal councils, being responsible elected representatives, share that feeling and would recognize that fact. MR. FERGUSON: Mr.

Chairman, the complaint that seems to be very prevalent is that any real estate deal that is going through, has to go through the planning board and it's taking, even the smallest deal is taking anywhere from three to four months to be processed. Could the Minister give me any indication of why there's such a hang-up of even the smallest deal? MR. URU SKI: Mr. Chairman, that isn't the normal case of operations. Let me give you the history. I think one has to understand what has happened over the last couple of years.

Prior to the new Planning Act, there was no involvement of the municipal cou ncil or the department or anyone dealing with land splits, up until January of 19 76, so that any change ... In other words, if there was a land split anywhere in the province, no one had any control over it. As a result, there were land splits going all over the place which in effect amounted, in many cases, to subdivisions but there was no one had any input into it. As a result, councils were being caught off-guard, the province was being caught off-guard and there was just nothing happen ing,

whereas the legitimate subdivisions that were going through the Municipal Board and the number that were going through, there was a period of time of even upwards to six months prior to consideration of the subdivision by the Municipal Board. Since the new legislation came into being in on January 1, 19 76, all land change transactions have had to be approved by the councils and by the planning branch and this is an interim 80 acres or less, those subdivisions or land splits of 80 acres or less would have to be app roved by an applic ation to the cou ncil with advice from the planning branch.

Then the planning branch would, in this interim period, be the approving authority.

However, we have in this interim - and I call it an interim period because the intent of the legislation is that as soon as planning districts are formed and basic planning statements are adopted by the municipalities which would not be in conflict with provincial land use policies, that the approving authority be that local district, but in the interim period ... and the procedure is that if an appl ication is made through council and council rejects the appl ication, then that is the end of it, that is the end of the appl ication.

However, if council gives approval to the appl ication and there is some concern from various government departments through which the Planning Branch co-ordinates that appl ication and the Planning Branch disagrees with the council and disapproves of it, as a follow-up measure, there is an appeal mechanism from the province's decision to the Municipal Board. So that the local council decision is not appealable but the provincial decision is appealable. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON : Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Then I take it that I as an individual, if I have a specific program envisaged, first, I have to go about making the deal, then I have to have approval from the municipal council if this is 80 acres or under. Then, it has to have the approval of the Planning Branch, here again we may come into the fact that there may be highways involved, there may be drainage involved, there may be flooding involved.

All of these sepa rate clean environment ... all of these entities come back in and, in the event that six or seven pass but one holds out and says, well maybe it's highways that says, well you know, we're agai nst this thing. Now, the individual has to file an appeal with the Municipal Board. Is this correct? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. UR USKI: Mr. Chairman, that's not necessarily the case. What happens is that when there is an appl ication, normally what councils do is they say, look, you know, barring anything unforeseen we think that this appl ication is all right.

However, we would like to get advice from the Planning Branch. The appl icant fills out a very short form which is in effect two pages giving the description and the type of development that is to take place. He brings that forward, the Planning Branch does all the running around now. The individual who used to have to go through all the various departments, this is all now co ordinated by the Planning Branch for the individual at the cost that he does pay for this applic ation .

That's why there is a cost involved and the Planning Branch does the co-ordinating and brings in all the responses from the various departments. If there are concerns raised, the Branch, brings those concerns to council and say, here's what concerns have been raised and council can say, look we ag ree with you. But if it's in an area where they have jurisdiction on where it doesn't relate to highways or government departments, they may say, well, although you have raised concerns that 1165

Thur sday, March 24, 19 77 this may be a piece of ag ricultural land, we feel that the development should go ahead -and they approve it. If there's severe objection to that, and it would have to be a fairly severe objection that the branch would disagree, then in this interim period, the Planning Branch or the Minister in effect through the Planning Branch, may say, we deny that appl ication and that is appealable to the Municipal Board. However, in the last year, to provide him with some stat istics as to what really has happened, we have had a total number of app lications until the end of the year.

In 19 76 for example, for the twelve month period, the branch dealt with 1, 765 app lications; a total of approximately 1, 10 0 were completed, 961 were approved, 37 of which were refused by the Planning Branch and 65 were refused by councils. There is about 35 under appeal and there were 15 other different kind of . changes. A total of three percent of all the appl ications were refused by the Planning Branch which are appealable. So that virtually the Planning Branch has had very little direct refusal and only in very severe cases has the Planning Branch involved itself in refusing appl ications. MR.

CHAIR MAN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. We're quite aware of the fact that the act is definitely going through growing pains and also combined with the fact that there is quite an influx of urban people or people that are working in industries are seeking to estab lish themselves in the rural communities and I, for one, would certainly agree with the Minister that we do have to have some sort of a planning setup for the rural municipalities or else we are going to end up in a lot of trouble.

But here again I have one particular instance of a constituent who bore the cost of survey on his own, he had the Building Permit from the municipality, it is now moved into planning and I think that he's going to run into some problems with the fact that there may be flooding and also it's in the area of No. 1 highway, which is also something new and there's all kind of problems there.

But here again we find that we're having a bunch of frustrated people and really I don't know why then would this individual feel that because he has a Building Permit from the municipality and I expect that he's going to have only one outfit that's going to be re ally blocking the thing and that's going to be highways and he will be within the confines of the regulations which basically reads, 250 feet back from the right-of-way. MR.

URUSKI: Yes, I would like to sort of deal in the overall where I believe that the department over the years has tried to encourage, the department has not tried to sort of force itself on the local area.

What I would like to see and I'm sure the department would like to see is really saying look, that the municipalities would, even one municipality even before it joins , a planning district or whatever, would say to itself here's where we would like to see development occur in our area and here's the areas that we would issue a basic planning statement and indicate yes, we will accept development in these kind of areas and this kind of dev elopment.

So it makes it much much easier for the municipality and for the branch to give advice to a municipality of saying what kind of development do they really want in the area, in their own municipality and where should it take place; that's really the intent of the legislation, to say to councils, look, fellas, there is no problem with having development provided you make the decision where you want that development to occur and what kind of development you want, so that when there are applic ations and there's advice being given by the department, there is no second - guessing the municipal council of an area.

The specifics that the honourable member mentioned, I would suggest to anyone who is thinking of subdividing or making any kind of land split, that they do not undertake any surveys and expensive procedures prior to getting all the appl ication looked at so that there is no undue and unnecessary cost, because it's not necessary under the appl ication that can be filled out.

It's not necessary to have a legal survey so that all the input from from the council, from the municipalities, can be looked at prior to that individual going into a lot of cost which may end up that it not be the Planning Branch, although the Planning Branch will say, "We can't approve it. But it may be because the Traffic Board will not issue an access to a highway which maybe just can't happen.

So I would say that if people who intend to subdivide would seek guidance and the Planning Branch and planning offices would be more than pleased to give assistance and advice to people before they go into any large expenditure of moneys. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: Okay then, Mr. Chairman. I take it from the Minister's statements that if an area is estab lished -and we'll go back to the same South Central -that possibly three municipalities in a row are estab lished, one in-betwee n, doesn't participate, they may be brought in against their wishes.

And, over and above this, basically what is the cost going to be? How far does the planning go? You will pay administration? MR UR USKI: Yes. MR. FERGUSON: And technical support or ... ? MR. UR USKI: Yes. MR. FERGUSON: Well, what is the breakdown cost? MR. UR USKI: I gave that information in my remarks yesterday but . 1166

Thur sday, March 24, 1977 MR. FERGUSON: I realize that. MR. UR USKI: I'll repeat them. That's all right, I don't mind. The local administration consists of those activities which are most appropriately administered at the local level. In other words, if the district wishes to have building inspection, or whatever, that's up to the councils to decide amongst themselves. These costs, which could be partly recoverable by the issuance of permits, will be borne 10 0 percent by the municipalities. It's whatever kind of service they want to provide in that district. That's up to themselves.

In other words, that will be the office space if they have a building inspector, telephones and the like, that would be their 10 0 percent cost, the local administration. Ongoing planning service, once a district is formed, which replaces the present planning service agreement and provides for professional planning advice on all land use matters on a regular and continuing basis, these costs will be borne 10 0 percent by the province, with the level of service to be negotiated.

Now, when the district is being formed, as several of them are in the process now, a development plan or a land use policy plan must be prepared by the district within two years of formation. The activities involved include the preparation of necessary background studies, an analysis which provide the basis for making informed and well thought-out policy decisions. What I've been saying is, where do they want the development, what kind of development and the like.

The cost of this non recurring component will be shared on a fifty-fifty basis to a maximum municipal share of $1 .00 per $1 ,000 equalized assessment for the district, with any shortfall bei ng funded by the province, so that there is a maximum contribution which municipalities make. The amount of work that needs to be undertaken for the preparation of the plan will be subject to municipal-provincial negotiations. That has been the plan that has be discussed with municipal councils and has generally been well received.

The sharing of the ongoing costs of the district are really an internal matter between the municipal ities to negotiate amongst themselves. We don't get involved in that because it really depends on how much development goes on in the particular municipalities which may be part of a district. So some may bear a larger cost of the district than others, but that's for them to resolve themselves. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: Could the Minister then indicate to us what the participation of the municipalities have been now?

We have estab lished that we have six administration areas estab lished. What percentage of the municipalities are particip ating? I realize that it's a new program. MR. URU SKI: There have been at least 25 percent of the municipalities in various areas throughout the province that are interested and in various stages of applying to form districts on their own.

So I would say that we have those two districts that I gave you are already before the municipal board, and one already the hearings have been held; there are a number of them that are in various processes of either sending in resolutions, working out the budge ts of their operations and discussions. So there are about 50 municipalities in that range that are already in various stages of discussion with the branch too, in the formation or discussing the formation of districts. MR. FERG USON: I think that's all the questions I have to ask at this time, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all let me say that an attempt to bring some order into planning in the province of Manitoba I don't think is objectionable to any of the members of the committee. I would like to say, however, at this time there are certain problems that are cropping up now that are causing severe hardship to some people as far as the Planning Act is concerned.

Now, number one, I'd like to say that the appl ication for sub-division as it stands right now is, because it does get quite complicated and the average lay person doesn't fill it out himself; number two, most of the people give it to lawyers and have them fill it out. There's an additional cost there. A MEMBER: What for? MR. BANMAN: This two-page document. Most people do. I think if the Minister will check the statistics, that is what is happ ening.

Now, and I'd just like to quote a couple of cases of what is happening and how we can straighten some of these things out, because there is a lot of red tape involved. For instance - and I speak from a case that happened to me I happen to have a fairly - large lot in the town of Steinbach. It was serviced by sewer, water, curbed, it had the service connections in it, I wanted to go ahead and divide it so I would have an additional two lots. There was no objection from council, but it took a matter of roughly four months to get that thing through. I had to go through the whole to have that done.

Now, these are cases I think that possibly could be handled by the local people. Now, the other problem that is happening is the big backlog that we're experiencing in Beausejour right now. The Minister, I think, is aware of it. I think they've hired some additional five people in that particular outlet, and one of the main problems of that is that we are in that 40-mile radius of Winnipeg and there is a lot of going on there. I believe that the planners in that area are getting pretty frustrated because a lot of the stuff that they are doing is not planning really, they're pushing paper.

They were hired to do proper planning and organizational work and I don't th ink that 1167

Thursday, March 24, 19 77 is happening right now. What they're doing is the fact that, because of all this paper pushing, we're looking at lags of six months on many of these things, and that is happening right now. I draw that to . the Minister's. attention because it does cause hardship if somebody is buy ing a particular piece of property; he puts a deposit down and takes it to the lawyer and the condition of sale is subject to the sub-division. So what is happening is that, and I'm pleased to see that the department has come out with a new form because the other one is quite a bit th icker.

But what was happening is that these people were taking their deposits, plus the appl ication of subdivision to a lawyer, and it was costing an extra $200, $300 to have the process filled out, for often a very simple matter. Now, the other thing that concerns me is that -a nd the Minister read the figuresto us- under the present system you fill out the appl ication for sub-division, it goes out to Beausejour - and I'm talking about a parochial problem right now - and then it comes back to the council who then decides what happens to it; the council passes it, once again it back to Beausejour.

If the planners have any objection to it over there, it's rejected, it goes back to the municipality, the person is then informed of the rejection of his app lication, he then goes and appl ies to the municipal board and appeals that particular decision. Now what happens then is that I understand that in the majority of these cases again the municipal board passes the application and I stand to be corrected on that. I speak from experience from my own municipalities who, I would say the majority of cases have passed.

Now, we're all concerned about bureaucratic red tape, I'm sure the Minister is, I'm getting a lot of phone calls because of this particular problem. As I mentioned, people are waiting six months and it is causing problems in my area.

I'm wondering if the Minister in the setting up of the particular planning districts could tell us if the department has sat down and implemented any guidelines as far as lot sizes, and I'm speaking specifically now to a farmer who has 160 acres, wishes to sell off IOacres because he town - sell to move into his homestead and in order to do that he's got ta go through the whole procedure.

I have no quarrel with watching the appl ications for subdivisions very close on areas where there is not proper utility service, where there is not proper road maintenance' and where there is not proper bus service, and I think all these things have to be considered when approving these things because the municipalities will be be aring additional costs if these subdivisions are allowed where there are not buses running or there are not proper utilities. So I'm wondering ifthere are going to be any hard and fast rules along those lines.

The other thing is, some municipalities have adopted the principal by by-law that for instance they will not allow any subdivisions less than 40 acres, then another municipality says nothing less than 5 acres' and I th ink very often what is happening is that by saying 40 acres - instead of taking 5 acres out of agricultural land because many people don't even want 5 acres, they maybe want 2 or 3 acres - if we say 40 acres at $300 an acre is about $1 2,000. I'm just trying to rationalize what people are saying.

They are buying 40 acres for $1 2,000 where a lot in Winnipeg might cost me $18, 000, so it's still cheaper to buy 40 acres out in rural Manitoba, and there's a certain amount of this happen ing. I'm wondering if the Minister has any plans with regards to that or will this be left up to the local authorities when they do form the different planning divisions.

The other problem is another one of the local government districts and I had one particular area in Hadashville where the environmental people as well as Highways and everybody passed it, but because of a certain amount of red tape the gentleman in question has been waiting for 2 to 3 years to get a subdivision through. This is in an area where it's not agricultural land, it's sub-marginal land and the problems with that seem to be too complicated because it's driving the price of the lots sky hig.

I think he sold the lots for something like $500 each and he's looking at survey costs and everything well exceeding that already. So in this particular instance, the red tape that he's faced with is definitely adding to the cost of land. As I mentioned, I don't know what the very easy solution to the whole problem is but the way the present system is working right now, I should say really isn't working, because there is too much red tape and the onus is on the municipalities. They are accept ing a certain amount of responsibility, as the Minister knows, and I think his figures bear it out.

I was happy that he gave us those figures as far as the number of app lications that were passed by the municipalities and then passed again by the planning people. But I'd like to know what the Minister has in mind and I'm speaking specifically with the area surrounding Steinbach, Niverville,the R.M. of Hanover, the R.M. of La Broquerie, R.M. of Ste. Anne, what the Minister has in mind for that particular area. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. UR USKI: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member for his comments. I will try and deal with them as I remember them from the back end first.

The department is having discussions with the municipalities now, presently that he mentions regarding the possible information meetings and the possible formation of districts, so there are discussions being held presently. With respect to the subdivision that the honourable member mentions in Hadashville, which is 2 or 3 years old, the branch would have had no involvement in this whatsoever, in fact, the planning branch would have nothing to do with it. The appl ication would have been filed th rough the 1168

Thursday, March 24, 1977 municipal board of which the branch would have given information to the municipal board but they would have had no direct turning down or not turning down in it. I can only comment, I don't know the specifics of that subdivision that he raises. If he'd like to give me the details on it, we could check it out.

But I would venture to say, that if it is that long ago that there must have been some severe concern as to what he was trying to do in the area that he was subdividing, that the municipal board likely would have dealt with it but that the branch itself would not have been involved in the approval mechanism.

Secondly, the honourable member indicated that the branch tu rns down municipal council's appl ications and then the appeals are held, and a municipal board reverses the staff and the like, well I would say that in every case there would have been valid concerns placed by the branch or relevant departments as to reasons why the subdivision should not take place. However, the branch itself has only turned down 3 p ercent of all the appl ications that were filed of the total number last year.

However, I would have to indicate to the honourable memberl have to concede that the district office in Beausejour which handles app lications in the area that the honourable member is speaking of, has had a large influx of appl ications and the staff have really in the last year been doing more approvals rather than planning, I have to indicate that.

But we did not want to hire a large number of staff until we knew really what we were facing, and as a re sult in this first year it has been an educational period of time and we have a number of staff to be hired this year of the technical nature, not of the planning nature, so that the planners could go back to giving advice to the municipalities.

Additionally I might add that in this area of approvals, the staff have worked very very long hours trying to give advice to the municipalities and I believe that all in all, the number of appl ications and the way they were handled have not in the main taken any longer than the 90 day period, in fact, most of them have been far less than that in the appr oval mechanism. I would say that provided all the details that are required to be submitted in an appl ication form, everything else being equal, that an appl ication form would be completed within the 90 day period. MR.

CHAIRM AN: The Honou rable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: I wonder if the Minister could tell the committee how many appeals the municipal board has heard and what percentage of those were passed and what percentage were turned down? MR. UR USKI: There have been 35 appeals made in the last year and that would include the applications that were made also before the municipal board from the year before. Thirtyfive appeals out of a total number of appl ications as I indicated before, 1,765, how many of those appeals were rejected or approved? Approximately less than half would have been changed, I'm informed.

That would mean about 17 - in that ratio. MR. BAN MAN: We ll, I'd just like to reiterate once again that it is taking longer than 90 days, I think 90 days is an exception as far as what we are getting out of Beausejour and I think, just talking to the Minister of Agriculture, I think he's got the same problem that I do, as a lot of people are calling me and asking me, "What is happening to my subdivision? I'm selling ten acres of land here and the council has okayed it, what's happen ing to it sitting in Beausejour.

My whole problem with the particular thing is that there's a certain amount of authority that has been invested in the elected municipal representatives, and I think it's the government's intention to sort of let these people control their own destiny. That is not particularly happening right now because we are crossing another desk and every time paper work has to cross another desk, you are looking at another month or another 2 months plus an additional cost on that. That is my concern, Mr. Chairman. MR. URU SKI: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the honourable members comments.

I just don't know how serious he is when he ndicates that they are in favour of the concept of planning and when he indicates he's all in favour of planning, I want to indicate to him, that of the appl ications last year, the average time taken to approve those appl ications averaged out across the province, to 45 days. If the member realizes that under the Act, that if it is held longer than 90 days, it is deemed, refused.

In most instances that I have had these matters drawn to my attention, I have either found that people as the member says, have gone to lawyers or other individuals seeking advice or information. I have had a number of specific complaints that were drawn to my attention, exactly the way the member says. I've gone to council, council has said okay, and where's my approval? And when I've checked with the branch on three occasions, there hasn't even been an application to the branch, and those are some type of complaints that we have received.

There have been other complaints I must admit that have been legitimate, where the department has gone to various departments to receive comments which would normally have been, previous to this, the responsibility of the appl icant of running to the various agencies to receive comments - the branch does that, that there has been the odd delay. I don't want to say that in all cases it has been, but in most cases the appl ications have gone through in a normal fashion, provided all the information and everything is in at the initial period of time when the appl ication is made. MR.

BANMAN: I would just like to say agai n, Mr. Chairman, I would like the Minister to know that one of my concerns is, I would not want to see that the average person is discouraged from selling off a parcel of his land because of too much red tape. In other words, if we're starting to deal with high 1169

Thursday, March 24, 19 77 priced help, we're starting to deal just totally with real estate brokers. I'd like to compliment the Minister for bringing out an appl ication form which is much simpler. I paced through the one I have here, and this one's only 4 pages and we're looking at something like 12 in this_ooe, so that's a step in the right direction. My concern is that we don't have to go out and pay high priced legal help to get a subdivision through, and I'm not talking about a legal subdivision, , a complicated one with in a town or anything.

I'm talking about a lot line split, basically, and this is one of my concerns, I don'tthink we should have to pay a lot of high priced people and wait a lot of time for something that is very often common sense, and that's the point I was trying to make. Mr. Chairman, the other point that I should make is that I know that we're trying to form these planning districts, and the Minister is well aware some of the districts, and especially in my area, have never even had a planning Act, never mind going into a planning district. MR. UR USKI: Planning scheme, he means. MR. BANMAN: No planning by-law.

People could go out and build anywhere they wanted, they never needed a building permit even. So that we're moving from point A to point Z very fast, and not going th rough the natural progression that a lot of municipalities such as the Town of Steinbach had. They did have a planning Act that required a certain building code, but a lot of municipalities have never even had that, so that, we're moving quite fast. Maybe this is the problem of trying to sell the program, I th ink a lot of them haven't even started walking in that particular direction.

So I just express those few concerns aga in that I hate to see too much red tape tied up so that the average guy is forced to spend a lot of money on high priced help. The other thing is that we have had some municipalities, and I speak of personal experience that have not had any basic planning at all and now are moving into that direction. MR.

UR US Kl: I app reciate the honourable member's concern, and I would think that he too would be concerned that there would be consideration given to every app lication, because, prior to this, all sorts of development took place with municipalities just finding all of a sudden, developments where they had just no inkling that they wanted development to take place in that area, and it was just falling all over them.

I think the honourable member realizes that from having no control or no indication to municipal councils and to the province to having some control' that it is an educational process and a time process. But also I think he would realize and he would not want just rapid passing of subdivision without any due consideration as to what that would do to the land pattern and land use patte rn of an area so that every appl ication should be reviewed so that development just does not go on in a haphazard way ' I th ink he realizes that.

That being the case, we certainly are not intending to pressure municipal ities to enter planning districts, but I believe municipal councils want to formally develop and plan their own destiny for their own areas, and the Act is designed in such a way, that the approving authority is to be vested in those areas once they've adopted basic planning statement and formed districts so that that authority be vested with the municipalities and the process that we are in is an interim process. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have one chap, also in Ste.

Rose, that is having some difficulty in this area and he has been atte mpting to get approval for a subdivision for seven or eight lots and he has run into almost insurmountable odds. He's been trying now for two years to overcome them all. The Planning Act I know has been there for many many years arid I am sure we all agreethat you can't have uncontrolled development. The last request that he has had from the municipal planners is that he should have a 10 0-year flood protection for his subdivision. In order to find out what 10 0-year flood protection involves he has to hire a consulting engineer.

This is going to probably be quite expensive. I am just wondering whether the Federal Government is not involved in requesting from the municipal government to demand this 10 0-year flood protection because of flood damages, that they are not willing to come in to pay flood damages in the event of a flood. And I am just wondering if the Federal Government is involved in th is? MR. UR USKI: Mr. Chairman, I'd be interested in the specifics of that subdivision, if the honourable member wishes to give that information to us.

I would indicate that that information would be relatively easy to obtain as to the concerns of the Department of Water Resources through the Planning Branch, that a phone call to that department and to the area engineer would give the honourable member an explanation as to, unless it's a federal waterway, but it would give the honourable member some indication as to what they mean by a 10 0-year flood protection plan.

If that area has been subjected to severe flooding in the past, I can readily see why the Department of Water Resources, through the Planning Branch, would have some concerns as to whether development should take place on flood-prone lands, as we have had many cases along the Red River and in south Winnipeg where homes have been built which have been subject to severe flooding in times of severe spring runoff. A MEMBER: But he is the Water Board. 1170

Thursday, March 24, 1977 MR. URU SKI: No, no, he has nothing to do with it. I'd appreciate the information from the honourable member later on. MR. ADAM: We'll check this one out. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EIN ARSON: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to - briefly first a question I have, but then I wanted to make a few comments in regard and say that I agree with my colleague from La Verendrye. The problems that the municipal ities are facing which is relatively new under the Planning Act since it has come into effect in January 19 76.

I can give you one example in my constituency where they have started to commence to build a senior citizens home on C.P.R. property and unknown to themselves, and they had to check it out with the Planning Division, they didn't have the property zoned properly. It was industrial, therefore the municipality had to pass a by-law.

Here is an area where I am wondering whether the department can give some of them assistance in drawing up this by-law, because I was told that if they didn't have the by-law drawn up properly, and here they had to seek the services of a lawyer, and if they didn't have the 't' crossed and their 'i' dotted properly, then they were in trouble. If that by-law wasn't drawn up just the way the Planning Act wanted to receive it, it would be turned back. And this is one example, Mr. Chairman, that I think my colleague from La Ve rend rye was talking about.

Since this is new, I am wondering if the Minister is giving any assistance and probably setting up any sample of a by-law and how it should be drafted, the wording of it and such , in order that it is satisfactory to the Planning Division. MR. UR USKI: Mr. Chairman, on the specifics I would indicate that the municipal ities ort hevil lage he is concerned with should contact the Planning Branch for advice. We try and give the best advice that we can to the municipalities there, dealing with specific problems.

There are a number of municipalities who have never been involved in any planning agreements with the province and of course, they are at liberty to hire their own planning either from the private sector or wherever and handle these things. There is no doubt that when there are matters which may, and there have been instances where by-laws that were passed by municipal councils going back to the 60's, where they have been challenged in court.

One of the recent ones -t he Honourable Member from Pembina well knows - the decision of two councils dealing with the water supply to the community of Morden isa very grave problem of the way that by-laws were handled in dealing with particular development plans that were in effect for many years prior to that. I would only say that the Branch does try and give assistance and will try and help wherever they can.

But some by-laws really the municipalities should seek legal advice to prepare them, so that they are not placed in a predicament maybe years down the road, which may create them some great unforeseen problems. It is not so much the planning as the legal ity of the matters. And we will help them if we can. Yes, we will. As long as you let us know. MR. EIN ARSON: There was one other question I was going to ask, Mr. Chairman.

Are there any areas in the Province of Manitoba, such as say one municipality or more have banded together to form a planning area prior to this coming into effect, the Planning Act coming into effect in January 19 76? MR. URU SKI: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that there were a nuer of them prior to this Act. There was approximately 50 municipalities that had informal arrangements and they had the arrangement of an advisory Planning Committee of an area and there were approximately 50 municipalities prior to this Act coming into being.

And I would say that likely if those municipalities who had those arrangements amongst themselves wanted to proceed on that basis that that wou Id be a logical way to form districts as a natural option. MR. EIN ARSON: Then, Mr. Chairman, they could carry on but how would that fit into the planning scheme of things that we have establis hed under legislation as of January 19 76? MR. UR USKI: It would be just fine. MR. EINARSON: There would be no problems? MR. UR USKI: No problem whatsoever. MR. EIN ARSON: Thank you. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HENDER SON: Mr.

Chairman, part of what I was going to ask has been covered and I notice that you are talking about the Member from La Verendrye who was saying that they had no planning by-law. Well, I know in my area they happen to have two, which became very conflicting, causing an awful lot of trouble.

And I would th ink possibly that the department, I don't mean to be knocking them, but I would think possibly if somewhere in that department there are people who are working, and I'm not knocking people in the department, but where they could get proper legal advice, because we've got two municipalities and an individual that is in an awful lot of trouble now. They have been to the courts and it still isn't settled. So I just wonder if these people, as they have told me, figured they were doing the right th ing at the time and now they have two by-laws which are very conflicting.

So somewhere along the line they went wrong in their guidance, whether it's from their 1171

Thursday, March 24, 19 77 local lawyer or from advice they got in Winnipeg. And another case in connection with your Planning Act. The biggest thing that I hear is that it's way too slow. Because in the particular case in Manitou, the}' claim that it was far too long, that they got letters from your department which said that they would be replying soon, or by a certain time, and the reply didn't come, as a result they got their local lawyer to go in and to deal with it again. Apparently, everything was taking longer, there was nothing taking less time, everything was taking longer.

So a certain piece of land that they had hoped would be further along where maybe they could sell land, they don't even know now what it is going to cost or when they can really sell it and tell the people they will be able to get on with it. It is just taking too long. I was hoping that you could get to that department so that you could speed up some of its work, whether you are understaffed, or whether it's because of all the different things coming in. This is the main fault that I have as far as the Planning Act. It is just too slow in processing applications and getting them through. MR. UR USKI: Mr.

Chairman, first of all on the specific one that the member mentioned earlier, the problem that arose started back seventeen years, the one that we were discussing in the Morden situation. I might point out, and I would think that the Branch would have been pretty primitive at that point in time in their advice, but as late as fo ur years ago the department did give advice to the municipality to review those by-laws that they passed and get legal advice and look at them, at the ramifications of those.

And the conflicts were pointed out to the councils, but however I gather that the councils or their legal counsels did not advise the councils on what should be done. But the department did point that out four years ago to the two councils that we are speaking of. On the specifics of the one in Manitou, I am informed that there were problems encountered and certain steps had to be cleared up and other problems arose and there were reasons why it did take long. But there were problems along the way that had to be resolved and certain points had to be clarified.

I understand that tentative approval has been given to it, subject to certain provisions that council would have to meet, that the council has agreed to meet. So that that one is pretty well through. MR. HEND ERSON: Well, referring to your first remarks about notice being given to the local councils to review. Well, I know to councils there is always certain letters that come and they almost regard them as routine or did they have a problem ... MR. URUSKI: The conflicts of those two resolutions were pointed out to council. MR. HEND ERSON: At that time? MR. UR USKI: At that time by the Director of Planning. MR.

HEN DERSON: Oh, I see, because I do know in local municipalities they usually rely on the local lawyer who does mostly farm sales and property sales and he is not really up on municipal law at all. And I think, I would hope that as a result of what has happened in Morden that you would be more careful in pointing out to other municipalities and towns so as they wouldn't get into a conflict like this. MR. URU SKI: Mr.

Chairman, I ag ree with the honourable member, but I think the fault, if there is really any fault, really does not rest with the councils, because I think the councils did refer to their solicitors and I would have to throw this into the laps of the lawyers, that they just didn't do their homework and did not advise the councils of that. But council, as I understand it, did refer to their solicitors and they weren't given the advice that they were paying for, in this particular case. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The only questions I would like to ask the Minister is, apparently there were 50 municipalities involved in planning prior to the introduction of this bill, and he said I think that there were 50 involved now. Would he explain this? Has there been no increase? MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Minister. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that under the old Act there were approximately 90 municipalities within the province under Planning Service Agreements with the Department of Municipal Affairs where planning advice would be given to them . Of those 90, approximately 50 shared joint advisory planning commissions.

However, since the new Act has come into place, we have had requests or are in the process of receiving requests from approximately 50 to go into actual districts under the new Act. So some of those may be with in this, and some may not be within this group. I believe there would be some new ones because of the areas that they are in. Some of these that are now going into districts may not have had any agreement, but I would say that most of them wou-ld have been out of those 90 that had agreements. MR. FERGUSON: Then basically the net increase is zero. MR. UR USKI: No. Mr.

Chairman, it is not a matter of net increase of zero. It is really a matter of municipalities sitting down and developing planning statements or development plans for their areas, and in effect, having the province transferring the approving mechanism for all development in their areas once those districts are formed. Now, when you're saying zero, if you had nothing and you still have nothing, you have nothing. 117 2

Thur sday, March 24, 1977 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Find out just how many planning districts have been formed under the new Planning Act. I know there have been discussions with a number of municipalities, but how many have officially been formed under the new Planning Act? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. URUSKI: Officially having been approved by the final stages, none at this point in time. Mr.

Chairman, the department started discussions with the municipalities last summer when the funding arrangements under the new Act were finally developed, so that we could give the municipalities some indication as to what cost-sharing and how the matters could be resolved in the form of cost sharing with the municipalities in development plans.

However, two areas have not only presented resolutions to myself - in fact three districts have municipal board hearings set already - one of which I believe has already been completed by the Municipal Board, two of which are appearing before the Municipal Board and they are well in the process of becoming districts at th is point in time. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JO RGENSON: Sorry, I wonder if the Minister would repeat that. How many districts are now in the process of being formed? MR. URUSKI: That we are having discussions with now for districts?

We have approximately 15 that are groups of municipalities, which I indicated are approximately 50 municipalites. MR. JORGE NSON: What would be the average number of municipalities forming a district? MR. URU SKI: Three and a half, some two, some four and the like. So it's more than, well, 3, 4, 5, 7, there are varying numbers, but the average is three and a half municipalities per district. MR. JO RGENSON: They are going as high as seven? MR. URUSKI: As high as seven. MR. JORGENSON: I wonder, in the application for subdivisions, why does the department want 15 copies of a plan for a sub-d ivision?

What in heaven's name do you do with 15 copies? MR. URU SKI: I presume you are ta lking about a large subdivision. Because in a normal land split, the department, I'm informed, al I they do is take Xerox copies and forward it to the relevant agencies and departments. I believe under the - you're ta lking about registered plans? MR. JORGENSON: The one I have in mind. MR. URU SKI: They do and that has been in effect for years. That has always been the requirement and ... MR. JORGENSON: I don't care how long it's been in effect, I just wonder what in heaven's name do you do with 15 copies? MR.

UR USKI: I th ink the app licant can get one copy and go to all the relevant departments who require notification of the change. That can be done. But th rough the Municipal Board, if all the departments-are to be notified, then 15 copies would be necessary. MR. JO RGENSON: And then he brings these 15 copies in and he pays for them , brings them all in, and there's one minor change that has to be made, he has to go back and get 15 more copies. MR. UR USKI: That's one of the reasons why he should not have the land surveyed until the plan is app roved.

There should be no cost incurred by the individual applying for a split before there is approval given. So he doesn't undergo the cost because there is no need to undergo the costs of a surveyor until after approval has been given. That's one of the statements that I made - and the Honourable Member from La Verendrye indicated - that people were going to legal counsel and doing surveys, without even getting advice from Council or from the Planning Branch as to what requirements are there. MR.

JORGENSON: So in the appl ication for a sub-d ivision, are you telling me that the first thing that a person should do is go to the Planning Branch and they will develop the plan for him? MR. UR USKI: They will assist him as best they can, yes. MR. JORGE NSON: And it would be not necessary to go to a surveyor to get ... MR. UR USKI: Not as far as the Planning Branch is concerned - he may have to have a legal survey when he wants to register it and it's been approved. Until that time, he does not have to go to a legal survey I know. MR. JORGENSON: Well perhaps I should see the Director some other time.

I don't want to bring any individual cases up here , but I would like to ta lk about one in particular. MR. URU SKI: Absolutely. There's no problem there. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Member for BirtleRussell. MR. GRAHAM : Mr. Chairman, I just have a couple of short questions. I would like to know if any members of the present Municipal Planning Service have left the service of the government to go to the various planning authorities that have been established throughout the province. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. URUSKI: No. Mr.

Chairman, as I indicated there is not - no, in fact we have enquiries from municipalities wanting to join Planning Service, which at this point in time we are unable to provide 1173

Thursday, March 24, 19 77 because of the staff constraint that we have had in the branch; there are numbers of municipalities who have not been engaged in any type of planning service and we are unable to provide that service to them. We are attempting to give them some help but we are concentrating our efforts in the municipalities who want to join and develop planning districts. We are giving our first priority to those. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, then I would like to ask the Minister a further question, and th is is looking a little further down the road.

As the various planning districts are formed through-out the province, does the Minister foresee a phasing out of the planning services of the his department? MR. UR USKI: Mr. Chairman, that certainly is a possibility, it is hard to foresee now, but I venture to say that once the districts are formed the municipalities will, of course, want to have ongoing planning advice on the development plans that they pass. But it is conceivable thatthat could happen when the municipalities form their districts eventually.

But there are so many municipalities that are not now being served, that likely that will not be the case for the time being. MR. GRAHAM: No further questions, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HEND ERSON: The only remark I'd like to make is that I'd like to see the department get hold of more people so as to speed things up in this Planning Act, because I think myself that if you could process these appl ications a lot quicher, it would be a lot better. I am just wondering what you people think.

I'm sure that if these things could be processed much faster and weren't held up for the time they are, that people would be more satisfied. I also think about the local municipalities that go to local lawyers that aren't too familiar with municipal problems and law. I just wonder if by some chance there couldn't be more, shall we say, legal opinions given to them through the department to take care of some of this because they keep going to these local fellows and paying for it and they don't apparently know �here they're going, at least that's the way it seems in my area. MR. URU SKI: Mr.

Chairman, the department does provide advice to municipalities and there is no doubt that we do give legal advice, but in the end, it is the municipality and their solicitor that will have to ultimately make the decision; and although we try to provide as much assistance as possible, we are not in a position to provide legal advice to the municipalities. It is really up to themselves to handle their own legal matters. We can advise them on certain matters but really when it comes down to it, it is their responsibility. There is no way that the department can provide legal advice. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 92(a)-pass; 92(

b) Other Expenditures. The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: Mr. Chairman, I missed on the last item but it's not really that important. I was just going to enquire as to why the government had asked for Estimates of $1 ,606,000 and only spent $1 ,342,000.00? I'm sure there's got to be some confusion somewhere because this has never happened before. MR. CHAIR MAN: Resolution 92(b). MR. UR USKI: We'll try and get that information for you, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Chairman, the amount that we're discussing there, there is staff complement of $255,0 00 with an additional 15 new SMYs for an add itional amount of $1 67,500.00 so there was a salary adjustment of $87,500.00. There's also included in that amount $1 30,000 for district plans in cost-sharing with the municipalities in those fees. MR. CHAI RMAN: Resolution 92: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,7 43,300 for Municipal Affairs-pass. Resolution 93 Provincial Planning (

a) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we would just ask for a very fast breakdown of what's gone on here, there's not that much money involved. MR. UR USKI: Mr. Chairman, I would like to indicate that this branch was establ ished in February 19 76 and it has minimal staff. There are three professional staff who were all transferred from other departments and the only additional one is clerical. Clerical staff was the only additional one. The three senior people were transferred from other departments.

The primary function of this branch is to act as support staff to the two com mittees established under the Planning Act, that is the inter departmental Planning Board and the Provincial Land Use Committee which is a sub-committee of Cabinet.

The principal,task of the Provincial Planning Branch during the latter half of 19 76 has been working with the line departments which have land use policies, as an example, Agriculture and Renewable Resources, Tourism, Highways, etc., Water Resources and the establishing of some broad land use policies at the provincial level which will act as a guideline for municipal councils and for district planning boards when they commence the preparation of their own development plans.

I certainly can't speak too highly of the job which the personnel in this branch have done in the brief period since this branch was estab lished nor can I emphasize too much the importance of the task of hammering out broad provincial land use policies as guidelines for municipalities. The new Planning Act for the first time places an onus on the province to estab lish some broad 1174

Thursday, March 24, 1977 guidelines and it is not an easy task to bring together all of the provincial programs which have land use implications and try and co-ordinate these in such a way that policies can be estab lished which will avoid conflicts in the future. I am hopeful that within the next few months, the Provincial Planning Branch will be able to place before the Provincial Land Use Committee a draft of policy guidelines for its consideration. This is primarily the role that the Provincial Planning Branch has played since it's formation approximately a year ago. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 93(a)- pass; 93(

b) Other Expenditures-pass; Resolution 93: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $89,000 for Municipal Affairs pass. The Hono urable Minister of Labou r. Would you use the microphone, please? MR. PAULLEY: ... not really, it doesn't matter. I'm sure you can hear me, Mr. Chairman, but the suggestio n has been made that now that you've finished the details of the program that the Committee may be inclined to rise just leaving the Minister's salary for discussion and then it would not be necessary for staff to return to the Committee.

As I say, I have discussed that with the House Leader of the Oppo sition, if that is the inclination of the Committee. We're getting al most short of having a quorum in any case. There is an important function tak ing place over at the Convention Centre, I believe namely the MAST Convention, and there is some desire of some of the members of the Assembly that are in committee to go over there. Of course that suggestion that I am making is in the hands of the committee. MR. JO RGENSON: I move the Committee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise and report. 1175

THE LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y of MAN ITOBA Thur sday, March 24, 19 77 ESTIMA TES - HEAL TH AND SOCI AL DEVELOPM ENT MR. CHAIRMAN : Before we proceed this evening I would like to draw the attention of the· honourable members to the loge on my left where we have the former Member for Rhineland, Jake Froese. I ask the honourable members to welcome him. I would refer honourable members to Page 32 of their Estimates Book. Resolution 62(

d) Day Care Services (1 ) Salaries $268,900.00. Pass? The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERM AN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are a number of areas in the day care field that I want to touch on and I would invite your direction, Mr. Chairman, at this juncture as to what particular headings and what particular items I should be operating under.

I would like to take a look at the whole Day Care Program, the philosophy if there is one, the policies if there are some, and I put it to you, Sir, whether we can approach them under the Salaries item or whether you want me to deal at th is juncture directly with salaries. The Minister may have an initial statement, or a statement on day care and if that's the case I would certainly be interested in hearing it. I have an opening statement on day care myself that I would like to make. MR. DESJA RDIN S: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if we could proceed with the first one, Salaries, just staff, and then Other Expenditures, and then the Financial Assistance to the day care centres themselves. That,s where we can have our discussion on policy, and so on. MR. SHERMAN: That's agreeable, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. MR. CHAI RMAN: Resolution 62(d)(1 ) Salaries-pass; 62(d)

(2) Other Expenditures $66,500- pass; 62(d)

(3) Financial Assistance. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERM AN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, before being challenged by the Liberal representatives in this House, I don't think we run any risk of a challenge from the government on this position but to make sure, for the record, Sir, that we are not challenged or misrepresented in any way by any presentations of any other party, I want to say for the record, Sir, that the Progressive Conservative Party considers a proper day care program to be one of the top priorities of any government and any responsible opposition in this province.

So I would like to make that point at the outset, that we approach it from the point of view of a responsible opposition. We approach it frorn the point of view of an opposition that is confronting a responsible government. We consider it a top priority item and I would hope that none of the criticisms or remarks that we direct to the Minister would be misinterpreted by anybody else in this House. Sir, Conservatives view a proper and efficient day care program in the province as a program that is consistent with what we believe is necessary in contemporary society.

We believe that it is a modern social problem and as such it requires the attention of all responsible legislators. It has to be met head-on and solved and we would go further and say that a proper rationalized day care program is consistent with our philosophy of self-help and the work ethic. So the Minister will find our sympathy in terms of his responsibilities to address himself to the problem.

He may not find our sympathy in terms of the way he has appraoched it but we would agree with any position that he takes that emphasizes the importance of a proper and efficient and rational approach to day care as being a modern-day contemporary problem that has to be met and solved and that is consistent with what we think are the values of modern-day society in terms of preserving the work ethic and the worth of self help. Our problem, Sir, is that we don't believe that the government has gone much beyond lip service to interest in the day care problem itself.

Our main concern is that this government has never done the proper studies required of an administration where day care is concerned. We believe that first and foremost, before a proper approach to the day care problems and solution of the day care problems can be achieved, that we have to know specifically what those problems are. And we don't feel, and I put it to the Minister, that any substantial examination of the market s taken place. I would say that we consider the top priority to be market research, if I can put it in tse terms.

The top priority of any government, or any responsible administration, or opposition, in this province today is to research the day care market and find out where the needs are, the specific localized individualized needs, and then to try to formulate procedures for grapp ling with those needs.

We feel that this government has taken a universal blanket approach to day care, has said to itself and said to the population of Manitoba, that we need day care services, we're going to rush into the field and we're going to do what kind of funding and offer what kind of support we can, and it has been a universal kind of program that has not been measured in terms of responsiveness to individual problems in individual parts of the City of Winnipeg , or individual parts of the province.

And I would begin by asking the Minister what studies have been done on the market itself, what kind of research has been done, to determine the kinds of positions and the kinds of support and services are most critically required and would be most beneficial? Sir, essentially I guess the main study of the whole day care field that has been conducted in the last few years in our province, in our community, the Rutman study, and the resulting Rutman Report, said one th ing to me with respectto 11 76

Thursday, March 24, 1977 day care and that was, "Don't try to go ahead too fast. Make haste slowly." And I believe that what this government has attempted to do, is go ahead too fast in a field that requires a variety of individual approaches to individual pr oblems. You know there are some fields in which a universal approach just is not rational and just is not practical. I would suggest, Sir, that the government has ignored the basic advice of that report. Perhaps they don't read that report as offering that advice, but that's the essential advice that I read from that report.

I believe, Sir, that this government has talked a lot about day care and has paid, as I say, considerable lip service to the concept of day care, but has wound up in the end by underfunding that concept and underfunding that prog ram. The Minister no doubt will want to challenge me on this point and I offer it not as a definitive conclusion but I offer it as a conclusion that I have come to from reading the record. And it is this, Sir, that in the 19 75-76 Estimates we voted an appropriation of $3,700 ,000 for Day Care in this province.

I can only find in the public accounts a record of having spent $1 ,400,000.00. Now the Minister, as I say, will no doubt want to challenge me on that and he will have opportunity to do that, but let me put that to him and let me put it on the record. I find an expenditure of $1 ,400,000, which is 38 percent of the amount that we voted.

There will be those on the government side and there are those in the community generally who will argue that one of the big problems with respect to day care and proper funding of day care is staff salaries, that staff salaries are creating a heavy load for the government and heavy load for the taxpayer in the day care area.

Well, I challenge the Ministry on that point on the grounds, Sir, that I believe that the evidence will show that most workers in the day care field are underpaid, seriously underpaid; that by the government's own standards which establish a monthly minimum at the Health Sciences Centre of $720 for unskilled workers, that day care workers in the field are seriously underpaid. My investigations indicate that 81 percent of supervisors of day care centres are paid less than $700 a month and that until very recently, at least, 98 percent of the aides made less than $600, which is barely above the minimum wage.

That compares with the government's own standards which dictate that the monthly minimum at the Health Sciences Centre should be $720 a month. So I put it to the Minister and the government that they cannot use the argument that salaries in the field are a major item which are causing budgetary constraints and restrictions because salaries are low on my records, unless they have been substantially increased very recently, and it is not a legitimate argument to protest that this is one of the factors creating financial and funding difficulties in the field. Mr.

Chairman, ther e are a wide variety of differing needs in the day care field. I think that it is unarguable that in constituencies such as the one that I have the honour to represent and a number of others of like socioeconomic advantage, day care centres are not required and the services of day care centres are not required to the same extent that they are in various other parts of the City of Winnipeg and various other parts of the province. The need for day care is greatest in the core area of the City of Winnipeg.

This is where the service and the program should be strengthened, there and in the whole general community of working mothers and single-parent families. We don't feel confident, Sir, that this government has moved into the service field with that kind of rationalization in view.

Sir, this really reverts to the point that I made originally in my remarks, that the government's failure, as l would classify it, in the area of day care is the result of the fact that there has never been a proper study done to determine what areas, what regions, what communities need certain day care services of a special and specific nature and that the approach to the program has been general and universal rather than responsive and specific. One other criticism that I would direct to the Ministry, Mr.

Chairman, is that my experience and information is that there is a wide lack, a wide gap in communication between day care centres and day care operators and the Department of Health and Social Development itself, that very few of the centres know what they are going to get in the way of support from the government, that very few of them know what directions and parameters they are supposed to operate within, that very few of them have any clear regulation or direction, and that if they attempt to find anything out they become bogged down in what has become, I think, a rather general condition in Manitoba and in the City of Winnipeg as a result of much legislation of the past seven years.

They become bogged down in a jungle of red tape and bureaucracy and diffusion of authority so that they have an extremely difficult time in getting clear-cut answers to questions and in determining the directions in which they should be moving. Mr. Chairman, I think there are tremendous opportunities in the day care field, tremendous initiatives that could be looked at which I feel this government has not looked at.

There are initiatives that have been undertaken in other countries, particularly with respect to involvement of the private sector in the day care field and I challenge the Minister and the Ministry to demonstrate that that kind of assessment, that kind of study, of the field has been undertaken. I think a point that can't be overemphasized is that there is, as I have said, an enormous variety of needs, that there are children in certain areas with special disadvantages who come into day care 1177

Thur sday, March 24, 1977 programs who simply cannot cope with the day care programs that are available to them, who cannot cope with the advantages of day care programs because they haven't been conditioned to deprivation in their own socio-economic backg rounds to be able to appreciate the kinds of services offered. There is a tremendous gap, a tremendous upgrading requirement, that is necessary on an individualized basis.

You can't just approach the thing, as it seems to me the present government has done, as a kind of overview, an umbrella motherhood, something that looks good in terms of social service, and say, well, we are going into day care and we are going to offer so much in the way of ap er diem subsidy and so much in the way of a monthly per child rate and we are going to encourage people to be in the day care field and that makes us good day care people and a good day care government, period. That is not good enough. I want to say just before sitting down, Mr.

Chairman, that I th ink that it is essential that th is government recognize, as I believe my party does, that day care is one very effective means of combatting poverty, combatting the poverty and the disadvantaged problem that afflicts urban centres like the capital city of our own province. The trouble is that this government's app roach in the field has been a makeshift approach it's been a hurry-up approach. It has been an attempt to do something in a rush, to get the walls up for a structure without ever building the foundation.

As a consequence today, there is confusion and there is frustration, there is financial difficulty, there is adverse publicity, there is concern. There are day care centres including that at the Health Sciences Centre, which is probably supposed to be the showcase centre in Greater Winnipeg, and day care people generally don't know either what the future holds or what, for that matter, the present holds. This is the essence of the overview that I want to put to the Minister.

I have a number of specific questions that I want to ask as we examine this item in the Estimates, but I want to put that overview to him, Mr. Chairman, and I would be interested in his response if he feels inclined to reply at this juncture. In short, what I am saying is that this government has not measured up to the kind of lip paid service that it has to the day care concept and the philosophy of day care services in the province. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, my honourable friend when he first rose said that day care is a very important program. With that I agree with him 10 0 percent. Everyth ing else he said I rejected most completely. I feel it is very difficult for a member - I kind of feel sorry for him to have to make this state ment - without knowledge of the facts at all. And today I would like to invite my honourable friend , I will make arrangements for my honourable friend to visit the day care office, to talk to staff' to realize that we probably have the best staff. I am very proud of the staff. I don't apologize for them at all.

I think they have done a heck of a job. And I very seriously invite my friend and the Honourable Member for Assiniboia to go and spend a day or a morning to visit the day care office and find out a little more of what has been happen ing and I don't th ink he would ever make the speech that he just made a little while ago. There was very little interest in the last two years on this side of the House - I am talking about the Official Opposition - on day care, and all of a sudden because there has been an attack on day care, well then that becomes popular. And I want to compare this attack exactly on this program.

This program, at no time did the government say that this was a universal program, immediately that we would look at the budget and give a blank cheque. We have never said that. We said, "This is the funding. This is what is available. Fine." And to say that there is confusion, that absolutely, absolutely untrue. They know exactly, practically to the the amount that they are going to get. I would like to compare this probably to the program on drugs where we say, This is what we are going to pay. We don't say we are going to pay all of it or the ambulance program.

And I am nottalking about PAT, I am ta lking about the ambulance program. We say, "There is so much money and that's it." Now, first of all let's look at some of the statements made by my honourable friend. "We went in there blindly, we didn't know what we were doing." There were three studies done before day care was even started. The one that my honourable friend mentioned, the Len Rutman? report, the George Tsalikis report and the planning and research study from our department and then I might say that the program is totally responsive to the community.

The community decide if there is a need, this is studied by our staff and then we proceed. So this is absolutely wrong when there is a state ment that is made that we are just going in there to put the walls up and that's all we're interested in. I would like to say to my honourable friend that the program is approximately two and a half years old, that's what it is and look at the progress of this program and that's the one we're really proud of, this program.

This is not the one, and you've seen me on the defensive when we've talked about certain things when I felt that we hadn't done enough but certainly not on this program. We sta rted in 19 74 with, I'm just talking about the group day care centres. In 19 75 we had 33, in 19 76 - 12 2 and in 19 77 - 16 6. 19 76 And the places went from 1, 12 7 in 19 75, 3,685 in and 5,200 in 19 76-77. And the amount of money, in 19 74-75 - $600,000; - $1, 200,000 and finally this year $4,1 00,000.00. So to say that this program is not 1178

Thur sday, March 24, 1977 progressing, this is absolutely wrong. Now let's look at the salaries. The aides have received from 19 76-77 to 19 77-78 and this is the budget that they did themselves, not prepared by the department, it was the aides, $550 and this year the amount is $680 per month or a 24 percent increase. That's not bad. You might tell me that they were underpaid, that's possible, but this has been progressing, there's no doubt about that. The supervisors were getting $630, they are now going to get $760 for a 21 percent increase.

The directors $766, it will mount to $900, that's a 17 percent increase. I don't know if my honourable friend really knows what this program is all about. There is a day care program that supports day care services in two ways. One, there is a branch and resource support to group day care cen tres which provide out of home care for six or more pre-school children, that is the group day care and then, of course, you have the family day care.

We haven't been as successful with the family day care and that's probably the answer to a lot of the problems, that is a home that will keep up to five people because we have had a lot of trouble with the licencing and that is being looked at at this time. Now to say that we haven't looked at the private sector, even that is wrong.

We had a meeting less than two weeks ago with somebody that is operating a profit day care, the Mini-Skool, who tells us, by the way, that 1.hey would be so happy to go on the formula that we give them because they would do so well and we are looking to see if we could arrange something that would qualify them for some part because of our program this has emptied some of thei r schools and we might try to have a non-profit organization rent place from them and have another 200 places. Now I haven't got that time and probably this might go on for awhile so I won't go into all the details at this time.

I want to give you an idea of what the day care people did and they knew exactly that it was going on. They are set to get more money, they want complete funding, they want complete funding from the government and this is a ... No, that's the proposed resolution from the Member from ...

Be it resolved that the centres submit their operational budgets for 19 77 based on amounts which the centres believe to be reasonable, appropriate, adeq uate to meet their own needs and expectations and not based on amounts expected to be granted by the provincial day care office or motivated by fear of putting the centre into a deficit situation before the aforementioned grants are adequate. Now, does anybody on that side of the House feel that this is responsible budgeting?

When you are told you are going to get so much money and you pass a resolution and say, forget it, just exactly what would you like to have, give us this picture and make a resolution. And some of these people are withdrawing from this and I've had letters where the people think that this is certainly not cricket and they're pulling away from that association. Now my honourable friend, there has been lots said .. .. I have so much information, so much I'd like to tell you here that I don't know where to start. -(I n

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-26b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 26b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	cad9cea9e01ddacdf61f124f2a801e3a60fad98e

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