Volu me 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, MARCH 11,1976 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTIENHEIMER Number 28

~'arch 11 , 19 76 The House met at 3:00 P.M. ~r. Speaker -in the Chair. ~'R. SPEAKEF: Order, please! Tape 1065 IB-1 Visitors are ab~ays welcome to this gallery and all hon. members are always pleased to ~·elcome people from different parts of Newfoundlan~. This is the peoples' Rouse and the people are always welcome here. There is a rule which all visitors are require~ to observe and which I, as Speaker, am required to enforce. That is that all citizens who come are entirely welcome but they are not allowed to part1cipate in the debate or to make any noise ahowing approval or disapproval.

That rests with the people who are elected in this House. I must point out once again - order, please! I will repeat it again that visitors are always welcome in the House. There is a rule of parliamentary procedure which is binding on all people who visit the House and that is that they may not take

part in the proceedings, they may not make any noise and that is absolutely binding on all people who come. It is equally binding on thi.s 'louse and on me to observe and to enforce that rule. PRESENTING PETITIONS: ~. SPEAKEF: The hon. member for LaPoile. !~. NEARY: I have a petition to present, Sir, from forty-nine residents in the district of . Carbonear, no particular

section of Carbonear district, Sir, just a petition that was circulated amongst a group of people in the Carbonear d:!str:l.c.t. The prayer of the petition, ~'r. Speaker, is that 1 ''We, the undersigned, protest the continued rise in the cost of light and heat as required by the Newfoundland Light and Power Company Limited. Our 280l

!'arch 11, 1976 Tape No. 1066 N¥- 1 ~. NEARY: protest is based on the belief that the cost of service and fuel adjustment charges are beyond the wage and price controls of the federal government. The charges are also beyond necessity in maintaing reasonable profits. 11 We ask (1) a freeze be placed,continued on all types of increases sought by Newfoundland Light and Power Company~ and (2) the provincial tax be dropped from all light and heat bills.' ' It gives me great pleasure, Sir, to support the prayer of this petition and in so doing, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to point out to hon. members of this House that the 125,000 customers of Newfoundland Li~ht and Power r.ompany can ill afford another increase in electricity rates at this time. I do not have to remind hon. member of this House, Mr. Speaker, that ~~e have the second lowest personal per capita income in the Hhole of Canada. •Te have record unemployment. l•Je have a bleak outlook for the future and now 1ve have a disaster at Come By Chance. So how can, !-'r. Speaker, how can the consumer cope with this kind of situation?

I beg and beseech and pray that the government w:fll recognize the fact that at least 40,000 signatures over the last v1eek or ,;o, signature,; and addresses of irate, frustrated, bewildered, hopping-mad Net.rfoundlanders have been presented :In this Rouse,and unless the r,overnment are completely insensitive to the real wants and needs of the people of this Province they will recognize these petitions and not grant any more increases to Newfoundland Tight and Power Company or allow their own creature,for that matter, Newfoundland Hydro, to incre ~ se its rates by forty per cent.

So, ' 'r. i>peaker, I present this petition and ask that it be placed upo" the table of the I!om;e and referred to the department to wh:l ch 1t relates, in this particular case the department headed by my '!on. and learned friend, the Kinister of }lines and Energy. ~'R. SPEAKER: The hon. H:f_nister of '1-'ines and Energy. 2804

March 11, 1976 Tape No. 1066 NM- 2 ~To. CROSBIE: Hr. Speaker, with respect to this petition,of course it refers to the customers of Newfoundland Light and Power. As the hon. member for LaPoile (~fr. Neary) knows, the Newfoundland Light and Power Company can only receive a rate increase if the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities, an independent and semi-judicial body,authorizes such an increase. ~'R. NEARY: Do not try to weasel out~ ~'P... CROSliiE: And, Hr. Speaker, they only do that on the basis of the law as it applies to them,and the precedents.

They have to allow NeWfoundland Light and Power Company a certain return on investment. If they do not allow a certain return on investment it cannot raise funds to expand service or improve service,and the principles are well know not only in this Province but in others as to what the law is with respect,to such public utilities. That has been all explained of course in letters to the press by the Chairman of the Board. We have every confidence in the Chairman, Hr. C.W.

Powell,and every confidence in the Board and we have every confidence that they will only allow any such increases as are reasonable and proper under the legislation and under the law of this Province which has not been changed since 1972, which is the same law and regulations that were tn force from - probably from 1949 to 1972. It is the sRme system exactly as was in effect when the last administration was in office, and it is still in effect now. And I feel sure that if there is any application for an increase by Newfoundland Light it will get the same careful attention as it has done previously.

As to what will be done will happen with Newfoundland Hydro, a statement will be made in the Rouse shortly on that, Mr. Speaker. I should also point out to the House what is already well known, and that is that there have been extensive increases in every province of Canada in the rates charged for energy in the last year, in the last two or three years,and this Province is certainly not among the top of those who have had increases. ZBOS

t Tape 1067 ~'l',. SPfAKEn: The hon. member for Terra Nova (''r. T,ush). ~1'. U'SI~: 1 1dsh to support the petition presenterl by the hon. member for LaPoile (~'r. Neary). The minister mentioned the fact that Newfounrlland Light ancl Power prices that they charge for electridty is controlled, and ottr stand on this is that that fs IB-1 so to an extent,but as long as Newfoundland Hydro increase their prices,obviously Newfounc11and Light and Power have to as well. This "as certainly proven in the event when the ~lewfoundland Hydro "'ere r,ranted an increase of 40 per cent.

We were then told that this 1muld be a It, per cent passed on to the custo!T'ers of Newfoundland. Tn adr:Htion th"s 1·'as,of C'ourse, to the 35 per cent that we had already received throughout the year. Possibly by the time that this 14 per cent ~ms put on to these electricity prices that T think the price mir,ht very Pell have meant probably 60 per cent :Increase to NeNfounclland,becauf'e rememher these costs of service adjustments 1Jere still being enforcec1 even though they 1·.rere cancelled for some T!'onths 1 but >'e are not sure they would have been had certain circn~stances not arisen.

So 1-re believe thl'lt until the NewfouncHand Hydro has certain controls on thell1, until they have to justify thei.r prices, then Nel'fonndlancl T.1 ght and Power is i.n a very ineffective position 1or cert;dn]y the Pnhl:j.c Tltilit:!es Board,because the mi.nute Newfoundlanc1 Hyr1ro ]ncreaRes their prices :It is only obv:!.ous to expect that ~ le"·founiflanc1 I.ir.ht ;md PowPr '"ill do the saTl'e.

Another point of the pet:ttion, of course, 1-1as the taxes on electric . heat. 1 think this is a very :f.mportant issue. !'any of onr peopJ e in Ne"•foundJ and ~rent to electric heat because they thoupht th:ls Has goinp to be a cheap form of heat and of course 1.•hat h<1s happenec'l in the last year, the prices have just esc.alatei! to " pr:!ce th:1t :Is unreasonable, and in ac1d:lt5.on to this of course the.y have to pay a tax ,~mich :In our opi-.:t:l.on is very unjust ancl very unfair. Aga:ln T suppc>rt the petition so ably presentec1 to the House hy the T"emher for LaPoile (rr. Neary). 2806

~'arch 11, 1976 Tape 1067 ~"'!. SPEAKE~: The han. member for Carbonear. ~. R. ~"'OT'ES: ~'r. Speaker, I rise to support the petition primarily I think because the petition comes from constituents of Carbonear district. I do not think to augment debate on this because I believe for two full days last week this topic was ~iven reasonable,considerable and full coverage. I think it is only reasonable to assume that the government,following a logistic method of approachi.ng th1s matter,will come to some solution to the prohlem.

If they c'lo not then I suspect that more han. members on hoth sides of the House Y.'ill have more to say. Thank you. ''P. SP!'.AY-.EF: Are there any further peti ,tions? The hon. me!l'be.r for Concept:l.on Bay South. IB-2 --~'l'l. NnLAN: T have a petition s:h'lilar to the one presented yesterday 1-y tl,e. hon. mell'her for T.,aPo:lle O~r. Neary) for the Anglican Church Homen's Assodatinn of Newfoundland to the Canadian Radio and Television Col1'1"lission.

At the nctoher biennial meeti.ng a resolution apparently was macle that each primary branch was expected to act upon, either on an inc'liviclual basis or hy groups. ''Whereas alcoholism is becoming an increasing problem in our country,

be it resolved that the diocesan council ~~ite the Canadian 'Pac"io and Television Commission protesting the extensive showi.ng of scenes on television :Involving social drinking ancl the serving of alcoholic beverages,and further that each branch and incl :!vi c"ual Y."rite their member of parl i.ament expressing this viewpoint." Below i.s a fo= 1vhich the people concernerl have s:lgnec'l their names to to support the resolution of the Anglican Church Women 1 s Association of Newfoundland to the Canadian P.adio and Television Commission protesti.ng the extens1.ve showinp.: of scenes on television imrolving social drinkinp: and the servi.ng of alcoholi.c beverages.

Like my han. friend to my far right I would like to table this petition, certainly supporti.ng it 1 and I would hope that the mini .ster concerned perhaps in this case the !'in:lster of Transportation 2807-

'':orch 11, l'l7n "'"pe 1067 JD-3 >'1'. NOLAN: nncl r.o!l'municatfons would fon;arc1 it on hopefu]1v with the support Df the members nf thjs Jlouse, perhaps on both s:fcles, to the radjo or the C:on?.djan P;~dio and Television r.onll'dssion. Thank you. 2808

March 11, 1976 Tape ·no. 1068 Page 1 - mw Mr. SD&llwood. Before the hon, member sits ~own, does he realize that he is the first and only person in history ever to describe the hon. gentleman, as "on the far righd" MR. NOLAN: I am aware of my omission in that regard, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a great deal of pleasure to support the petition so ably presented by my hon. friend to the left, the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan).

I would assume, Sir, that this is a form that has been sent out all across Newfoundland and Labrador, and we will probably be getting more of these petitions in the Rouse. It is a good petition .. and,as I said yesterday, I want to congratulate the Anglican Women's Association for taking the initiative in this matter of alcoholism, which is becoming a very, very serious problem, not only in Newfoundland but in Canada as a whole. Mr. Speaker, we always felt in this hon.

House that ninety-five per cent of the highway accidents,injury and accidental death and property damage ,was caused by drinking, that drinking was involved in just about ninety-five per cent of the acci4ents that took place on our highways. And I asked the Minister of Justice a question yesterday, if he could get me some statistics on what has happened since the RCMP implemented roadblock&. I believe we will be astounded, Sir, astonished to find out the improvements that have taken place in highway accidents in this Province since the roadblocks have been set up and there has been a reduction in drunken driving.

So, Sir, this is a good petition. I whole~heartedly support the prayer of the petition and congratulate again the Anglican Women's Association for taking the initiative in this matter. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, I would like .to add my support to the petition, and assure the hon, gentleman from Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) the same assurance that I gave to the bon. member from 2809

March 11, 1976 Tape no. 1068 Page 2 - rnw Mr. Rousseau. LaPoile (Mr. Neary) yesterday, as Acting Minister of Transportation · and Communications, we will see that the petition is forwarded to the proper and appropriate federal authorities. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Naskaupi. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the power consumers' committee of Happy Valley- Goose Bay, North West River and Mud Lake. They have canvassed the area, Mr. Speaker, and have come up with more than 1,200 signatures here.

The prayer of the petition is that , "Although Labrador is a part of the Pr~ince of Newfoundland and Labrador, the people feel they are treated very unfairly and to a great extent are penalized in that they have to pay exceptionally high electric rates with a very poor service. The residents signed below strongly protest these high rates and poor service and request that the government remedy this unfair situation:' They have also asked that I not only table but read out a couple of actual bills to reflect their attitude,!£ I may.

One particular resident of 11 Grand Street in Happy Valley, for instance, in July paid $26.27 that month for a light bill - anCI I might add that no electric heat is involved at all in any of these instances - and on January 17 the bill that particular month was $105.82, which is a considerable jump. There are examples further down, which I will table with the petition. MR. SMALLWOOD: Was that for the month of January? MR. GOUDIE: One month. There is another one in North West River, for instance, in October the bill was $35.40; in January, for that month,it was $109.99, and the examples go on.

So I wish to table this petition, Mr. Speaker, and ask that it be directed to the Minister bf Mines and Energy. MR. SMALLWOOD: Before the hon. member sits down, is there any explanation! Is the rate increase shown just the two amounts, $36 then $109; one month 2810

March 11, 1976 Tape n.o. 1068 Page 3 Mr. St~~aUwood •. after the othe.r, Without any expl~tion? or is the metre gone ·on the bUill or what? Is the rate gaue up or what is it? I mean~ thi;s is crazy! MR. GOUDiE: I do not .think the rate has gone up, Mr. Speaker. But there is a general column haTe on the ttght hand aide whi.ch has sQme cOIDIIlents on the different · appliaces whieh were used each week, and there is no o11hez: expl8.D&tion than that for the increase. MR. SMALL'ii'OOD: No beat? Ma. LUNDRIGAN: What abou.t the nUIOber of hour:s. Are they given there? 2811

!larch 11, 19 76 Tape 1069 PK - 1 MR. GOUDIE: y 2 s. In July, Hr. Speaker, the kilowatt-hours used were 835, and on the 17th. of January, the date of this bill,the kilolvatt-hours were 2",128 hours. NR. SPF..AKER: '!R. NEARY: The hon. member from LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition presented by the han. member on behalf of his constituents who reside i.n the Happy Valle:y; -North Hest River area. The han. member is quite correct, Sir. I have example after example in my office of bills that have doubled in the last year. What happened, you see, ~!r.

Speaker, was the Public Utilities Board granted a 15 per cent increase to the llewfoundland Light and Power Company in the early Spring, And then they went back looking for another 15 per cent, but this time the Public Utilities Board only granted an 8 per cent increase.

But in addition to the 15 per cent plus the 8 per cent, they also authorized the Newfoundland Light and Power Company to increase their monthly rates by 1 3/4 per cent a month right up until the end of November,when the Public Utilities Board realizing the goof, the blunder that they had made,advised the Newfoundland Lip,ht and Power Company that they were to discontinue the 1 3/4 per cent monthly increases.

And they have been discontinued ever since, and the Ne~vfoundland Light and Power Company say now they will not resume the 1 3/4 per cent monthly increases until some time late Summer or early Fall, when they hope,I presume, when they think that Netvfoundlanders by that time will be all on vacation, the amount of electricity being used will be down, everybody will be after forgetting about the controversy, nobody will be vexed any more, and then they thirik they will be able to go back and sneak the rates through again. Well, Sir, we have got news for them!

Because I am sure that the message by now must have gotten through to the government and to the Public Utilities Board, because not only are members on the Opposition side of the llouse, Sir, presenting petitions on this serious matter but even the government backbenchers and the ministers themselves are getting all kinds of flack. 2812

March 11, 1976 Tape 1069 PK - 2 Hr. Neary: So I hope that when the Minister of Mines and Energy comes into this House in the very near future,as he indicated a few moments ago, and makes his rninisterfal statement that it will be to the affect that there will be no increase in the electricity rates in this Province in the foreseeable future. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, this is a petition, of course, that we receive with great sympathy, as we have received all of these petitions, but even greater sympathy because it comes from the hon. gentleman from Naskaupi's district (Mr. Goudie). Now the position at Goose Bay-Happy Valley has not changed in the last four years, The people in that area have always objected to the fact that they are charged higher rates in that area because their power is supplied to them by way of diesel, It is diesel power, They are not supplied with hydro power. That was the situation, Mr.

Speaker, in 1971, and 1970 and 1969 and so on back into the past, and that is still the situation. Now they are in a diesel area in Happy Valley-Goose Bay. There is a very, very considerable subsidy paid by government to support the rates that are now in effect in Goose Bay-Happy Valley. HR. SMALLWOOD: MR. CROSBIE: my head. How much? I cannot give the figures right out of }m. SMALLWOOD: What proportion then? MR. CROSBIE: Hell,on the first 500 kilowatt-hours of power that is used in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, the rate charged is a hydro rate.

After the use of 500 kilowatt hours per month,then the rate in effect is a higher rate than the hydro rate because it is in a diesel area and 1~e just simply cannot afford to subsidixe the rates beyond 500 ' • kilowatt-hours of use per month - }!R. SMALLWOOD : Is that the normal usage of a house? MR. CROSBIE: -which covers normal usage if it is not electricAlly heated and if you are just covering hot water and lighting purposes. Beyond that you cannot go in a diesel area, Mr. Speaker, because if 2813

~larch 11, 1976 Tape 1069 PK - 3 l!r. Crosbie: ~he rates are ehtirely ~he same in the diesel erea as in ~he hydro area people will go on , to have electric heating and to buy other electrical appliances and so on , and you will have to expand and expand the diesel units which we just cannot afford to do on capital account . You are supporting power at cost then that are seve ral hundred per cent lower than your cost. Now in the Goose Bay-llappy Valley area this government is doing somethin g . There is now underway a transmission line from Churchill Falls to the Goose Bay-Happy Valley area. Ml l!Oll.

NEl1BF.R: P.ear , hear! MR . CROS&IE: That project is underway. SONE liON. M£UBERS : Hear, bear! "R. CROSBIE: The cost of that transmission line - I m:1 going by memory now - the cost of that transmission line is $20 million. So the government of this Province and the people of this Province are spending , have .started to spend and will spend this year and the next - I think it will be finished in 1978, 2814

}'arch 11, 1976 Tape lfJ70 IB-1 ''ll. CPOSni E: it is no later than that I am sure. We are spending $20 million to bring hydro po~rer to the Goose Bay-Happy ~'a] ley area frol'l Church:llJ ralls, power that we will recapture from the ''pper Churchill. r:l'!n '\>Te ~o anything more? We are r,oing to bring hydro po'\>rer to Happy Valley-C"TDose Bay and then they wi J1 be charge~ the hy~ro rates,or it may even be a rate better than on the Islann ~epenc'l:!ng on the trans""iss1on costs and the like.

So at that time this situation wHl be changecl in Happy Valley-Cease Bay,.but we just are unable to do anything 11bout the rates until the hydro power comes on stream at Happy ~ralley-Goose. Bay. nn poor service, there were representatives of the Hydro ;mthority who attended a.t Happy Valley a meeting there about a month ago,anrl the service rates and the meters are being checked.

The hon. gentlP.m<tn gave nn example there of a bHl that had increased­ and it sounded terrible -from thirty-six dollars a month it \vas in July and then in one month in December it becamse $109, but when the kilol ••att-hours are locke<! at you will see that in December approximately three times as much power was used in that house as :ln .July. So naturally the bHJ had to go up. Now, I have had complaints, Mr. Speaker, of the same sort of thing happening.

One particular case I remember within the last two months ,,,as a resident of, I think, Botwoocl or some area like that,Pho wrote me to protest the tremenclous increase th;~t had occurre~ in 'her bill from one month to the other. hlhen I had my assistant check it out with Newfottndlancl Light they cliscovere~ i.t "as a mistake, and they had already Cliscovered the rnistake,;md told us that she '~as heine given a credit on her next hill to make up for this mistake that they had discovererl in the hilling.

If she hac contacted them herself,of eourse,they would ~ave been ah]e to tell her that this had already been adjusted. So anyone that has a sudden increase that does not see~ to jibe with the usar,e can call Newfoundland Light or Newfoundland Hydro 2815

' 1.1r rh ll, 1975 Tape 1070 IB-2 ''Tl CJ't')SBTF: :~nd hnve :It checker . There is n1 uays poss1hle , t here a re the oc:lc' cA!'eS Phere 11 meter goe" wronjl or is improperly reaci or the coll'pnte r s that fiencl out the bills get peculiar or do not clothe proper job . <:" t hat can alw11ys he checkecl . llith res pect to ~:hat •~as hei.nr. s aic:l bv the nemher for Ll\l'oile (''r .

NP:trv) , vr. !':penlrer, :In Ne•~foundlnnrl J.f p,ht .,nd Power's a rea - :>ncl they a r e not in the Pt~ pp y T'ttlley-l':oose T'ny 11re:1 - the :Increase i n t he r:1tc s chnr~er' !>y !\ewfotmdla ncl L:lrh t and T"o"•Pr :In the l.'ll>t }'"nr is •h:l rt y-thrce anti a t hi ..-ti per cent, 15 per cent cause d by the lncre11 se in the wholesale price of power so l e' to them by 'lc,.,·founrlla nd 1!yclro, l'hich 1..ent fro m sjx mils per l;ilowatt hour to nine point seven - that rave a 15 per cent fncre:~se at the reta il level - the rest, ! {1 . 5 per cent, t hey got themselves on applica t ion . to the !\o:1rcl of f:oJl'lll1ss1oners o f Public Util i tie s and tJh:!ch :Is for thc:l r o"'" llccount for incrr.~tse!' i n costs that they have hac:l ~>r increasE's :In the cost of the price of fuel oU or whatever .

So t he t~>t al increase in the hyc\ro area wher e !lewfounc\l anc\ l.ifJit o:~nd Powpr operates in the la~=:t year h.ls been th;lrt y- three :~ n d n t hJ r c:l per c:cmt to the reta il customer . That is what H hns ~ee n. t·'h et~ you ~o across ranada, "r . Speaker, you w:l ll see tl1e inc re ases . C::ol"e nre 11bove anc:! soMe a re below t hat in the v:lTic-u,; province!' , ancl 111e nre around the l'led:lttm ran ge of the various provinces.

Ever yone r egrets it , bnt the f act i s thn t the cos t of bc> rro~o.•;lnf MOney, the cost c-f construct;lon is c liMbing every yea r nF ,.,. nl 1 kno~~ fro., the 1nflation, the cost of oil is going up and therefo re these rates h ac! to go up. ~le certllinl y c:lo not expect t~er~ to be any incre11se like that thi s year . The hon. leader of the Oppos i tion. '"' NYr.F."TS: : ·r. Speake r, ff I I"IIY say a •~o rcl or two in support c>f t he pet :It i.on presented hy the gentle111an fro111 :;:askaupi {Mr. Coudie ), nnr' fc>r thnt l"atte r ~o.·ha t I have to say relates to the pe tit ion from 2816

"arch ll, 1976 Tape 1070 ~'1? • rOBERTS : the nistrict of C~rbonear t~t was presented a moment or so ago by the gentleman from the district of LaPoile (~T. Neary). Ill-3 l'"r. Speaker, the ttovernment seem unable or unt..'illing - anc:l I would prefer to bel1eve unable - to unders tand exactly the fee ling and the point which the se petitions try to convey and I beli.eve do convey to th~se who will listen. I have never heard of a petition as widespread,rep re senting as many people in aJl parts of this Province as these series of petitions which have been presented here :In the House recently. JAR.

CROSBIE: ~~ch you organized. "!'. POBEJ!TS: The hon. gentlell'.an says I organized th81'1. ~·r . Speaker, T most certainly did and his colleague and f r iend from ~askaupj (~<r . Goudie) sdd ,an d I quote him, that a petition bad been t:~ ken around in t,e area by people ~1ho felt concerned, and so they should. ~·r. Speaker, I say ngain that I will gladly organize another peti don H it is needecl, and t w~uld be proud . and happy to do so. If the hon . 2817

!'arch 11, 1976 Tape No. 1071 m~ - 1 rw.. ROBERTS: 1!inister of Mines and Energy with his cold, callous hookkeeper's mentality does not understand how people feel about these things then maybe he should listen to some of these petitions because the point is, Yr. Speaker - l"R. NEARY: He is going to run in St. John's West. l<JI . SMALLI.'OOD: He is hoping to run in St. John's West. l!f'. RnRF.RTS: I hope he does run in St. John 1 s West, M.r. Speaker, Then he will find out •~hat running is like. Now, l'r.

Speaker, th e point of these petitions is that people have come to the end of the road with electricity increases, they have come above all to the end of the road with power increases in respect of which the goverrmtent have not made the least iota of effort to justify them, a contemptuous and a coldly contemptuous attitude shown by the government. !·'r. Speaker, with a special reference to the people who get their power from diesel electricity,and that includes all of the people in my constituency as well as the people in all of Labrador, East of the Churchill Falls and - r~.

NEARY: Three communities in my district. rw.. RnBERTS: - and three communities down in LaPoile district and many others throughout this Province, the government have not made anything lil ce the progress which the han. minister would hold. The 500 per kilowatt-hour per hour level is meaningless because the avera ge home, even a phone call to the Light and Power will tell him, uses at least 1,000 hours a month and that is not for electric heat, that is for the normal appliances, the normal utilities and normal usage of those.

That home in Happy Valley that had 2,100 kilowatt­ hours in a month was not using electric heat or electric anything except the normal and appropriate appliances. ~fr. Speaker, the han. Minister of }lines and Energy is trying to blindfold the devil in the dark when he speaks of the fact that government are not forcing up the costs,and he talks to the Public Utilities Commis sion hear i ng rate increase applications by the Light and Power Company, a privately owned utility. 2818

March 11, 1976 Tape No. 1071 NM- 2 HR. ROBERTS: The fact remains, Mr. Speaker, that if the costs go up to the Light and Power Company then they must get a rate increase, that is inevitable.

But what the minister did not say was that the costs go up in large measure and the point of these petitions is that they are going up entirely and solely because of the government's action and the government intend to drive up- I think we have stopped them at lea.St in part- but they intended to drive it up by forty per cent which would have meant fourteen or fifteen per cent on the retail bills immediately and· the government would have caused that as directly and as completely as anything could have been caused by any group of men. }fr. Speaker, this government are callous.

They do not care about the problems which ordinary people face and that is the point of these petitions , and all of the pedantic and unfeeling and bookkeeper talk by hon, gentlemen opposite will not convince people. And I say to them now, let them listen. People will appreciate the truth, they will deal with the truth, and they will accept the truth. But they will not accept the sort of contemptuous gobbledygook which we are getting in th:ls House and outside on this question and many other from the Minister of 1'ines and Energy and other spokesmen for the ministry. Let them listen, Sir.

I am not worried about the politics of it, but let them listen. Let them listen because it is the ordinary people who are being hurt, not those of us who are making $20,000 or $30,000 a year as ministers are or as members of the House, but it is the ~. who is trying to make it on $5,000 or $6,000 or $10,000 a year and is faced with these power increases. All through the North they have faced them, bills have doubled and tripled and no apparent explanation. Mr. Speaker, it has gone on long enough. Let the government show that at least they care. At least they are concerned. Then let them act. HR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of }iunicipal Affairs and Rousing. MR. PECKFORD: }lr. Speaker, I would like to support the petition presented by the hon. member for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) and to point out for the 2819

1-'arch 11, 1976 Tape No. 1071 NM- 3 MR. PECKF<'RD: benefit of the Leader of the Opposition that the members on this side of the House do care about bills that go up,and that we are all not millionaires or '~ealthy people on this side of the House, that we have very real concerns about the people of this Province and the increase in power rates, in Green Bay, and in Naskaupi and in the Straits of Belle Isle and eve~here else in this Province. And it is irresponsible for the hon. Leader of the Opposition to try to pretend that the only people who are concerned in this hon.

House happen to sit to the right of the han. Speaker. Well I want to point out to the Leader of the Opposition that every single individual on this side also cares and are concerned about the people of this Province and that 1ve all do not have the income and the financial wealth of the Leader of the Opposition either,and that we know what it is like to carry water around this Province in small communities and that 1•e have not all been born with a silver spoon in our mouth like the Leader of the npposition. ~. RnBERTS: This is a personal attack. ~11' . PECKFORD: Why did you not let me speak1 I let you speak. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! Order! Before recognizing t~e han. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture I wish to point out to hon. members on both sides that with respect to the petitions obviously there can be no debate, certainly it has come very close to debate,and perhaps has been. ifhat hon. members are permitted to speak on are the material allegations in the petition, the material allegations, ~That the petition -. states and ~vhat redress :!t asks for. ~<n. :::Pf'u\KER: 'T'he hen. ~ l inister of Forestry and Agriculture. 2820

March 11, 1976, Tape 1072, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, I should like to add my voice of support to the petition presented by my fellow colleague from Labrador. I spent some time over in the Happy Valley-Goose Bay area, the Mud Lake and North West River area and I know the problems that they have. As I mentioned many times here, Mr. Soeaker, there is one problem we always have to notice and in talking about prices we often forget. I brought up up in the House before in talking about air fares, for example, out of Labrador, out of my particular area of Wabush down to St.

John's which is two hundred and some odd dollars return. Or an electricity bill of that cost - it is the take-home pay. When you are talking about a cost of $100 you are talking about a r,ross pay of maybe $120 or $130 or $140. A $200 travel bill is a $240 or $260 gross income and it is very difficult on the people who have to pay this amount.

So with my knowledge of the situation in the Happy Valley­ Goose Bay and Mud Lake-North West River areas and other areas along the Labrador Coast in respect to the cost of diesel electricity I would like to lend my very strong and enthusiastic support to the petition presented by my fellow colleague from Naskaupi. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Bellevue. MR . CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the people of Markland. I realize probably this is not the best time to present such a petition.

I am aware of the gentlemen in the galleries from Come By Chance, This petition could very well get lost among the others. However this petition on behalf of the lnfi voters at Markland is very straightforward.

The prayer of the petition says, "We request that every consideration be given to upgrading and paving the road from the Markland Hospital to the end of the Markland settlement, approximately six miles: Now I am aware, of course, as all Newfoundlanders are of the cutbacks in government spending and I am sure that the people of Markland will understand if, when the budget is brought down next week, there is no allowance for any paving in the Province. 2821

March 11, 1976, Tape 1072, Page 2 -- apb HR. CALLAN: I am sure that the people of Markland will accept that,as all Newfoundlanders will,if the retrenchment and so on is suited to the whole Province. '1R. SMALLHOOD: If it is fair and square. 11R. \.ALLAN : If it is fair and square. However, I do not have to go into detail about the problems of the road in Markland. ~very year, every Spring especially, it is in the news, on open line pro~rammes and what have you. A month or so ago several ministers travelled to Europe and they discussed various possibilities for industry.

Markland, as most people are aware,of course, was founded many years ago as A farming community. I have been told -whether it is true or false is probably immaterial - but I have been told that an unsuccessful candidate in last Fall's election is planning to start a sheep farm at Harkland. Whether or not that is true I do not know. llo~rever, if there are plans for farming and so on at Markland, of course this is another reason why the road should be upgraded and paved as soon as possible. As I said, Mr.

Speaker, I need not elaborate on the need for pavement and if there is any paving done I am sure that here i s one of the areas of the Province where it is badly needed. Mr. ~ peaker, I thoroup,hly support the prayer of this petition and I .'lsk that this petition be referred to the department to which it r elate s . HR. SP~AKER: '1R. \\11-II'l'F. : The hon . the member for Lewisporte. Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise, Sir, to support the petition presented by my hon. friend from Bellevue. I realize the difficulties that the people in the Markland area have with respect to gravel roads.

I have the same kinds of problems in my district. There are a number of roads there that are not paved and I express the same fear, Mr. Speaker,that the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) has expressed with respect to paving this coming year. I too 2822

~larch 11, l!lUi. ~m. WHITE: Tape 1073 RH - 1 hope that if there is some money allocated for paving in Newfoundland and for upgrading roads that all districts are treated fairly. I hope, Mr. Speaker, that that is done and not just paved and roads upgraded in districts that are represented on the other side of this House. I would just once again, Sir, like to say that I support this petition. ~m. SPEAKF.R: The hon. member for Ray of Islands, MR. L. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of 190 residents of the community of York Harbour.

The ~~sh of the petition is: "We, the undersigned citizens of the community of York Harbour wish to submit to our member this petition protesting the poor reception of television viewing being received through CBC and CJWN, the latter station not even being seen in the coliUUunity." Mr. Speaker, I think perhaps that this petition would go to the Department of Transportation and Communication. I hope that as a result of this petition ~~e will be able to bring to the viewing public of that part of my district better reception of television on both stations. While, Mr.

Speaker, I am on my feet I understood that when we are presenting petitions we would merely give the number on the petition and the prayer of the petition. But I noticed that from the other side of the House what is being done, there is a sermon being preached rather than a petition being given which is really certainly taking away from the valuable time that we are using in this House. I also feel, Mr. - MR. SMALLWOOD: Are you going to preach a sermon? MR • WOODROW: I can, yes. I have done it lots of times,as you know. I also feel, Mr.

Speaker, that members of the Opposition as well,which I think is grossly unfair, have been taking advantage of the people who. are in the galleries today. This is certainly unfair of this hon. House. I thank you, Mr, Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~m. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I want to assure the hon. member, Sir, in supporting his petition that I am not taking advantage of anybody in the gallery. But I am merely pointing out to the House, Sir, that television reception in York Harbour is not merely common to the Bay of Islands area. I have the 2823

~larch 11, 1976. HR . NF.ARY: Tave 1073 RH - 2 same problem in my own district where veople are forced through no choice of their mm to watch The Edge of Night. They cannot watch Another World because they can only get one channel. They can only get the CRC station. I presume the same thing is happening in my hon. friend's district. But, Sir, I just point that out as an example. But, Mr.

Speaker, what irritates me about the whole thing is that back in September one of the first things that I did after I was elected in LaPoile district on the advice of the regional manager of the CBC, he ~ave me the name of the regional engineer for CBC in Newfoundland. I wrote the hon. gentleman, the regional engineer for the CBC1 and I asked him what plans CRC had to improve television reception in Newfoundland, especially in my mvn district ,and I got no reply.

About a month and a half ago, Sir, in complete frustration I dug out the letter, I had the secretary dig out the letter, scribble a note across it, "Would you please reply to this letter?" To this moment, Mr. Speaker, I have not had the courtesy of a reply from the regional engineer of the CBC. They are being paid hy the taxpayers. 11R . SHALLHOOD: Give us his name. vfuere does he belong to? HR. NEARY: Hell I have not got the letter with me. I do not know his name but he is presumably over here on University Avenue. rw •. S~~LLWOOD: But where is he from? HR. "TEARY: He are paying his salary, the taxpayers. HR.

S!'!ALLivOOD: Hhere is he from? }llt. NEARY: I do not know where he is from, Sir. fiN HON. HF.MBF.R: His name is Nicholson. MR. '<KA.RY: Nicholson, is it? Well, I got the letter inside. I wish T had it with me. If I had known my bon. friend was going to present a petition today I ~.-auld have brought the letter in just to show him the kind of treatment that Newfoundlanders get from the Canadian Broadcasting. I am not talking about the news media now. I am talking about the television reception in certain parts of Newfoundland. I think it is a shame, Sir, 2824

"la-cch 11. l<l7n. HR . Nf.ARY: Tape 1073 Rll - 3 11nd T think that the reople are entitled to bettet: reception than tlley 'Ire Ret tin g . 1 also checked, by the way, with M~. Colin Jamieson a few t.reeks ago as far as my· own dist t:ict is concerned,and I have been told that they have no plans to expand ot: to improve the television reception in the Rose RlRnche- Jlurn t Island area in the foreseeable future . 1 was prossl v disappointed to hear this. I do not know , ·lr. Speake r. t~hat cahle television is going t o do for the at:eas thiH are 11ffecterl now l>y poor television. 2825

March 11, 1976 Tape no. 1074 Page 1 - mw Mr. Neary. I do no~ know if it will improve the facilities. I have no idea at the moment what it will do for my own district. Probably the hon . member does not know what it will do for his. This is a matter that is under negotiation at the present time.. But, Sir, in all fairness I think that the people of this Province, all over the Province, should be treated, as my hon. friend from Belleuve (Mr.

Callan) said a few moments ago, should be treated fairly and squarely and that everybody should be able to tune into two television channels at least in this Province at the present time, and that they should be able to get good reception. MR. SP EAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the prayer of the petition from the residents of York Harbour as presented by our hon. friend from Bay of Islands, the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow).

I do not know how many of you follow closely or even casually some of the legal changes in regard to television sets and repossessions. But in the State of New York now, I believe, recently it has been decided that the one thing you cannot repossess­ you can move in, you can take the tables, the chairs, the bed, the bath and everything-but the one thing you cannot touch now is the television set, and perhaps this is some indication of the value that our society places upon the colourful or black and white thing that stands in the living· room that we have all grown to depend upon so much.

We certainly support the prayer of the petition. I share the concern of the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) on not having the decency of a reply from the engineer from the concern . mentioned. Surely, especially if this were to happen, for example, to any department in this House of Assembly, where the ministers are responsible, we would go to the minister if necessary, and I am sure that the matter would be 2826

March 11, 1976 Tape no. 1074 Page 2 Mr. Nolan. corrected almost immediately, At least, that has been my experience with the ministers that I have dealt with or the officials for that matter. So I do hope that before we sit again that the hon. member will have a reply, and not only that if he does not have a reply I hope he will get up and say so, so we can support him once more.

Now while I support the prayer of the petition for the residents of York Harbour- and I hope they get the television reception that they crave and desire, and I hope they do get it - I must say I do not agree with his remarks concerning those on this side of the House and the people in the galleries• It was a cheap shot, and I think that he should apologize. Thank you, MT. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROUSSEAU: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Mr. Speaker, I would like to heartily endorse the petition presented by my colleague from the Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) .

I think it is a shame that a community like York Harbour, which is so close to two centres of television in the city of Corner Brook, would not be able to receive adequately the television signal from these two outlets. So certainly I would heartily endorse it. I might say by the way in reply to the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), I can tell him now l~hat his answer is going to be from the CBC. I had occasion during my year in that ministry to write on a number of occasions, especially in one instance for my colleague, the member for St. Barbe (Mr.

Maynard), the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations, who was, before he became a member of the House of Assembly, a technician who has some knowledge of the telecommunications field• A cost of about $10,000 or $12,000 would certainly rectify a problem in one of these small towns in his district, and we wrote on that, and the normal pat answer of the CBC - if it was from the president down, no matter where you got it from - was that they had their accelerated coverage 2827

March 11, 1976 Tape no. 1074 Page Mr. Rousseau. plan and Hell nor high water were going to move them from that plan. MR. NEARY: At least you got an answer. I cannot get an answer. 3 MR. ROUSSEAU: Well we had quite an answer. The Premier finally had to take it up with the president of CBC, and finally,after a second letter, I think, we finally got an answer. It took so~ething. But their an~er will be to the effect that the accelerated coverage plan is their plan for development of the outports- that is anything east of Quebec-and they are not prepared to accept any advice from anybody in the area.

I might also like to add one other thing, if I might. The suggestion that cable television, how it relates to either CBC or · the CTV network - when this government supported cable television in this Province, it did not support it to the exclusion of either one of the private companies. People have to pay for that. That is a luxury that if people want, they pay for it. That does not mean, at least from government's point of view, that that means that either or the other station, be it the private or -publicly owned station , should not go into that area.

This is an added luxury for people who wish to pay the $7 or $8 or $9 for it, and it should have no relationship whatsoever to the provision of service by either the publicly owned CBC or the privately owned CTV network in the Province. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 2828

~·arch 11, 197fi YT'. SPPMG:11 : ''T'. r. POPl'll: T<Ope 1075 lii-1 The hon. mer1ber for l'erryland. I '~ou]d like to heartily endorse the prayer of the petit5on presentee'! by the member for Bay of Islands (}'r • .:'oodrow) because I am very familar w~th the problems of ~.v. recept5on,and thP.t T. t·. reception are always not a problem of areas such as T.aPoile or places f11r from centers of T.V. c11str:f .hut-J on. In one lnrge co!1'TT'un:f t y of Petty Tlarbour which is a very short distAnce, less than seven miles, six m:fles from St. John's,T.

V. reception is so poor on one s :fcle of the Harbour that it is almost totally nonsensical to m••n 11 tel ev:f.s:fon at al 1. Hhen the people or a committee of people contacted the radio and T.V. stations from St .

John's they t-Tere told that reception coulcl be improvecl but only :1 f the res:! c1ents of that area '~ ere to form tor,ether anrl to c.ollect SOl"ethin p: :fn the Vicinity of $5,000 to put :f_n a reflector of some nature t·1hich tmuld reflect the beam back to the Northern sirle of the harhour, ,,,h :1 ch to me seems that these raclio and televi s:f.on stations,certainly tlJe national television station of rBr,tdlich :ts a r.overnment Ot•merl and government suhsic1ized company, that 1 t shoul c1 not he the responsibility of a sll'al] null'her of citizens :In a small P.re~> to !<upply something like a $5,000 antenna. ~: m,, when these peoplP -and the "inister of Transportation possib] v coulc1 contact the r'PTr when these 1 :fcenses are h.e:fnp; rene•·7ec', tlwt these responRibil:fties for improvement of television reception ~>re the respons:lhjJ.ity of those companies and not of sm!ll] dti?.ens' cotnr1ittees in certain smaUer R!'ei!S.

Thanlc you, "r. Spe~>ke:r. NOTirES OF "OTION: ':'he hon. ~'in:! s ter without Portfolio. "P 1·'T':LLS: I give notice that I wjll on tomorrow nove that a coT"rittee be Rppointec' pur!'luPnt to Stancl:fng Orcler (84) to prepare <1.nc1 report 1.1 Rt s of Trembers to compose the various St.<~nit:f.ng rotnmittees nf the Hous e . ANSvJF.l'S TO QFESTIONS FOP WHICH NOTICE HAS JlEEN GIVEN: T'b€' hon. "injster of FisheriPs. 2829

•·arch 11, 1 ')76 Tape 1075 IB-2 Mr. rAFTEP: l'r. Spe~>ker, I P?.nt to prov:lc'e ~>nswers to qtlestion!'l thnt <!ppearecl nn tr•e nrr1P.r Paper, Question Nos. 351, 35l·, 325, 342 !'uhmittei! by the hem. :Tlember for r,.Till:lng:ate (r'r. ~malhmocl); nuest:!on No. 70P. by the former member for Exploits (1~r. ~'ulrooney); !Juesticm t'i2'3 hy the hon. Me~ber for Fogo (Capt. E. P:lnsor); question 62l by the hon. !T'enber for IC:>.rhonear (}'r. P. ¥cores). OPAL QT!ESTIONS: l'T'. SPF..•.KEl': The hem. T.eacler of the npposltion. ''T' POBET'T~: Mr.

Speaker, in the continued absence of the Premier from the House of Assemhly, JTJay I direct a question to the Yinister of ''anpower and Inclustrial llelations'? Would the minister tell the Fonse, Sir, ••hy the Termination of EmploYJ!!ent Act llhich was riven Royal Assent on "?..rch 2'1, 1973 nearly three years ago, has never been prnc-1 ?.1med? ,.,, SPS!IKf.l' .: '!'he han. "in:lster of l'anpm,•er and Inclnstr:l .al !'elations. l'r. Spea.ker, that question "'as ansvJered yesterday by the PreJTJier anc T no net see that it is necessary to acli! anyth:!np to •,•h<Jt the T'n~mier llas alreai!y sa:!cl . .

The han. member for LaPo:lle 'T":APY: Yr. Speaker, T have a question for the 1-':l.nister of '·'lnes ;mel T'nerrv. Hould the }'in:lster of J':lnes anc! F.nerp,y indicate to the llnuse ••hether or nnt he has received a letter from ~!r. Leo Barry, Jmrye1:, sol:ldtor for the workers at ~Come By rha.nce, in connection Pith severe>nce pay for the Harkers at r.ome By r.hance1 If so, if the M:lnjster '!1as r~ce:!vecl the letter, ~.·auld he :!n~:!cRte to the House •··hFtt 1\Ctinn the government have taken on tha.t letter? The hon.

Hinister of "ines ani! r.nerp;y. 'fr. ~peaker, a11 l":!n:lsters receive<' a copy of a letter from ''r. Len v. 1l "'rry. ""· Cl'OSllTF:: I.en n. Jlarry or whatever his name is, Leo n. B11rry, a<"tin~ on he half nf the Tn terna.t:!.onR.l Jlrotherhood of Electr:! cal Harkers, Lncal 2330 and the on,rheynical and .~tomic Workers International T'nion T.nc<'l 9908, clatecl 1'a.rch R. T assume the members of the Opposition may 2830 ...

''arch 11, 1976 ~<r . r.rosn:m: Tape 1075 IB-3 Also have r,otten it . The 11nswer to the ouestion that the hon . r,entleman nsken is,ye~ , we have received such a letter and our r esponse was given in the House yesterday to the same ques tion. MR . ~P.ARY: J. supplem entary question, Your nonour. l.lould the minist er indica te t~hether or not one of the recommendations made in l''r.

Barry's l ette r "tn behalf of the t~orkert<: was that specid legislation be brou cht into the 'louse t o r.rant the !leverence pay and then t:ecover 1.t At tt 1Pter nate 1n rhe event tha t the oj~ t:efinet:Y should be sold or start up operation again? If that is one of the suggestions, ~oes the minister or the government 1n tend to take advantage of that suggestion ma<'e by the gentleman ~ho is a former minis ter of Mines and Energy in the P.r. Aclrrlinistr:~tio n? 2831

~larch 11, 1976. Tape 1076 RR - 1 t·!R. SPF.AKER: The hon. ~Unister of 11ines and Energy. HON. J. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, '~ho Hr. Barry is or was is not relevant to this matter at all. Mr. Barry is acting as a la~er and is acting for these two unions that I mentioned and their employees. The position is that the Termination of Employment, 1973 has never been proclaimed and,as was explained to the House yesterday~if it had been proclaimed it would still have no application unfortunately for the present situation at Come Ry Chance.

The situation at Come By Chance is that Provincial rrefinin~ Company and Newfoundland Refining Company Limited are insolvent or are alleged to be insolvent, that there is now before the Supreme r:ourt a hearing on the question of t~hether or not they are insolvent. Tf Chtef Justice Hifflin of the Newfoundland Supreme Court finds that they are insolvent that finding will relate back to February 13, 1976 when the p~tition for bankruptcy was placed before the court and they would have heen found to be insolvent from that date.

We are advised that the legal position is that whether or not there was such legislation would h~ve no bearing on the situation because the situation will be governed hy the bankruptcy legislation of the parliament of Canada, that under the Rritish North - ~'IR • NEARY : Ye know all that. NR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I have been asked a question. I presume I have the right to answer it in my own way, not as guided by the member for T.aPoile (Hr. Neary) from vhom I need no guildance. I might need his help from time to time 1but no guidance.

Under the British North America Act the question of bankruptcy ts solely and •rholely Hithin the constitutional juri'ldictirm of the 'Parliament of Canada who have passed legislation called the P.ankruptcy Act. That act governs what a receiver must do in bankruptcy or trustee :in bankruptcy. It deals with tvhat creditors are preferred and what creditors are secured and it deals with wages of the people involved in the enterprise. It gives a priority to the wnges of the ?eople workinp. in the enterprise up to the time that they cease work. They come first. 2832

tlarch 11, 1976. MR. C:P..OSRIF.: Tape 1076 RH - 2 hrJ,cn t"'e assets of the bankrupt or the bankrupt company are sold off, if anything is gained from them, then lvorkman' s wages come first. After that there are other priorities, mortgagees of the Federal Government. l!R. NEARY: That is a red herring! '~ . CROSRT.f: TI1e Federal Government is a preferred creditor, Provincial Government, the S.S.A. tax, Workmen's Compensation, amounts like that are preferred and then the ordinary creditor. So, Mr.

Speaker, it is quite irrcl evant tvhether or not this legislation had been passed.,or if it -was prnc1 Aimed it tmuld not applv in this situation. MR. ROBERTS: Says who? 'fl'. cnnsnrr: PR. r..nr.ERTS: '!R. CROSTIU:: Tl1at is the legal opinion . Tahle it. He are not tablinr. legal opinions, t'r. Speaker. We never do anrl He Are not going to now. So that is the position, Mr. Speaker. Now, the receiver has to act in accordance with the law,and he is responsible to the court and he is resj)onsible to the creditors for 'vhom he acts. He will have to make his m.m decision.

He will have to make his own decision on matters nut bP.fore him hy ~~r. llarrv and representatives of the employees. 1·le have ur.pccl them to be as generous as nossihle and will continue to. no the question of whether government should make some payment and t~Pn Attempt to r,et it hack from the bankrupt estate, Mr. Speaker, if we mAne such a pavment we could not get it back from the bankrupt estate. It 'ronlc! have no preference. If vJe '..rere anything we would be unsecured creditors at the end of the s~n() million of debt that applies to the refinery. The unfortunate situation is, l'lr.

Speaker, that the difference between this situation, this unfortunate situation, caused not by the government, caused hy the people who otYOed and managed it- MP,. IIICKHAN: That is rir-;ht. ' ~. CROSRIE: ·· that is who t•ere in charge wher this operation became insol­ v~nt ~s it appears to he. It is not the government's fault nor are the other banl~ruptci~s that occur cluring the year the fault of the government. There 2833

' lnrch 11, J 07f.. ~lit . CROS11IF.: Tape J07(\ Rll - 3 nrc (lo;r.cns, ~! r. S('enlrer, in Newf<'undland durinp. the year. If government were to say that some special arrangement is to be made to pay HOrkers involved with r.n .c. and N.R. C. more than is required by the lat4 or more than the Bankruptcy 1\ct pennies, then how could the p.overnme.nt not apply that ~ame oolicv to any h~nkruptcy that ever occurs in the Province no m<ttter ho~1 larp.t> or how small'?

That is the situation. ~ow, Mr . ~peaker, the ~tovernment is prepared to do everythinp. it cnn tn assist the people unfortunately l a id off at Come By Chance,caused i.n nn t~ay lw the p.overnment of this Province and caused, ~·r. ~peaker , by no ont> i.n thiR Tlou.qe. The ~overnment has set up a task force to assist those who 11ant to try and find other e~~~? loyment. (Noise from t he galleries) HR . SPEAKER: Orde r, please! MR. CROSBIE: Tbe government hat met wit h representatives - 2834

March 11, 1976 Tape 1077 PK- 1 MR • SPEAKER: Order, please: I wish to interrupt the hon. ministec for a moment and to draw to the attention of the people in the galleries that it is not permitted to participate when an hon. member is speaking through any kind of noise or participation of any kind. That is a strict rule of this House and of every House. the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE: I did not realize I said anything amusing, Mr. Speaker. We are not amused by the situation at Come By Chance. We have set up a task force to try and assist people who are unemployed if they had to find other jobs.

MR. NEARY: Send them all off to industrialized Canada! MR. CROSBIE : The government have met with representatives of the people who are in the galleries and of the workers at Come By Chance to discuss with them other problems that they have in the area, such as what will they do in connection with homes they own or mortgages. And it is the first priority of the government to attempt to see if this refinery cannot operate under the present management, and it appears to be pretty obvious it cannot, to attempt to see how qucikly a sale might h e arranged to some other stronger organization that can operate it.

Because the most desirable solution is to have it reoperate. We cannot say when such a sale might be brought about because we are not the kind of people who attempt to bluff the public, Mr. Speaker, HR. NEARY: Oh, no, no! MR. SIMMONS: Oh everything all right - HR. CROSBIE: and we therefore cannot - ~m. SIW'\ONS: You kept telling us. MR. CROSBIE: The han. bluffs are on the other side as we well know. SOME IlON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CROSBIE: The slitherers, slithering down to Come By Chance to see if they can batten on the misfortune of the people who are going to be unemployed down there. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Oh, oh: 28.35

March 11, 1976 Tape 1077 PIC - 2 c1R. CROSBIE: }lr. Speaker, our first priority is to attempt to see if we can arrange as quickly as possible a sale of this refinery so thnt it operates once again. That is our objective. And t~hatever we can do to help the men involved in the s :_ tuation at Come By r.hancc, government will do as tve have assured them. But this gov e rnment cannot perform miracles,as can no other government p P rfo~ miracles, and that is the situation in respect to Mr. ~ n rr y 's letter and our position on it.

We will continue to do- ~:! l ~ O N . _ !~MB E r~ Going to table the letter? '"' . . _i-~SEIE: - everything '"e can. Nl liON . HF.MBER: Going to table it? •r.t ._~EAKER: Order, please! Before recognizing any bon. gentleman I wish to point out, to eup hasize a rule with respect to questions, and that is 1' as bon. members know,the purpose of the question is to ask for information nnd of the anstver to give information and that debate is not allotved du=ing the question period . The hon. member for Twillingate. l'R • S'1ALLWOOD: Nr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the minister a s upplementar y question. \~hen he says that the first thing of all is to get the refinery going again,with which of course every rkwfoundlander in or out of this I'ouse must agree, when he says that, •nod he r el'lemhPrs that the trustee in interim receivership has announced publicl y that they have been approached by two different outfits with a view to purchasing the refinery - one of whom is well knmm to me 0 I know they are extremely serious and extremely important in view of the strong likelihood, very strong likelihood that great plant which has a little mechanical defect · which will be remedied without any doubt, but that very great oil refinery will be bought,and will be bought reasonably soon, - HR.

NEARY: !lear, hear! HR. SHALL1-IOOD: - in vie1~ of that fact,have the government given any thought , - they have risked $41 millions to get the thing going -risk a couple or three million now by way of loans to the 500 workers. 2834;

!-'arch 11, 1976 Tape 1077 PK - 3 .:.!!_. Smnllwood: Cven if it is ~'o-thirds of their pay , or even half of their pay for six months and keep them here - HR . NEARY: Bear, hear! ~ !R. SMALUo/000: keep them that team, keep them in Newfoundland - SO~IE l!OU. }!DffiERS: llear, hear! ~IR . Sl1ALWOOD: so that whoever buys the plant has a ready made team of trained , good men wh~ are awfully eager to stay in Newfoundland. ~fR . Nt:ARY: lle.ar, hear! 'fR. S~tALI..lJOOD: No~1 the Premier has just come in. I know that in his heart he must feel as I do about this. I know he must . I ~ur.gested it yesterday.

Will they think about that? IIR. NEARY: It is a p,ood suggestion. }'!\ . SrEAKER: TI1e hon. mnis ter of Mines and Energy. ~1R . CROSliiE: Mr . Speaker, the government '~ould be foolish not to consider any proposal that is put fo rward , an·d I am sure we will consider the proposal that the hon. gentleman has made. Now that is not :1 proposal that I was dealing with in the answer to the last question. The !ton. gentleman 28 37

"arch 11, 1976 Tape No. 1078 NM- 1 1~. CRnSBIE: gentleman is suggesting something quite different and certainly there has been no decision by my government on that, and that can be considered. ~w as far as the resale of the nefinery is concerned, ~<r. Speaker, as the hon. gentleman knows there are a number of people indicate interest,but you do not sell a refinery overnight and there is a tangled legal situation at the moment because it is not at this time in bankruptcy. It is not clear who has the right to make any sales of the property.

Those questions nll have to be decided first and then anyone ~.;rho contacts 11 receiver or government or whoever, appearine to be willing to purchase it, hns to look at the ''hole situation and then make their offers. So there have been a number of people who have indicated interested, hut not concrete offers. And how long it will take before someone makes a decent offer that is acceptable,of course no one can yet knm;o. But ,,,e uill be assigninr; first priority and so will the receiver if he is officially appointed and confirmed, to see if a sale can be arranged. 1"1'. .

ROBETZTS: He exists now, does he not? '"" c~ns~ :rF.: At the moment he is an interiln receiver under The Bankruptcy Act ann tn the mortgages he is a receiver appointed under the mortgage~, hut '~-'e "~T" l,arrll y go1.ng to proceed, }'r. Speaker, under the mortgages and direct the sale of the refinery until the present proceedings in the court are finished with. ~. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MP. ~!F.A'RY: Hhen ~-rill the Come lly Chance '"orkers get an ans,•rer to their r]\leRtion? MT'. Sl'Al.l.' fl"' l) : r-'r. Speal·.er, ~rha t I run askin!l: - ~. Rnlll\PTS: Your Honour has recognized me - M1'.

SPEAKER: Order, please: I previously recognized the Leader of the Leader of the Opposition before the hon. member for T~lillingate. J'T'. W>JlEPT.S: l'nless the hon. gentleman, is it a supplementary or what? 1:r. s~·i,L!S"nl' : It is a supplementary, yes. "T' "nr;;.:T!TS: l·1el1, ~ ' r. Speaker, I hope ' it is a briefer supplementary than tl•c hon. p.;entl CJTl:ln nsJ,.erl hefore, but I "ill yield on the supplementary. 2838

>:nrel: 11 , 1CJ76 Tnpe NO. 1078 N}l - 2 ''!' Sl'EAKER: '!'h e hon. memher for Twillingate. S''.AT"LI!00Il: The question is, there are these approaches for the F'urchase of the refinery. It will take time, as the minister has said , There are legal technicalities, there are various things. But ···hen I am asking ap,ain is six months; would the government gamble ~~. ~ million for six months and with the excellent chance - AN ••n•:. }"EJ-'IIE1'.: They got the support - II]'. Sl"ALLH00D: ''fl. NF.Al'Y: ~'l' .• S}IALU'011n: MR.

NEARY: No eriticism from the House - support over here. - or the people of Ne,vfoundland - 'Tear! Hear! ~'R. S~' ALLI\T00D: - gamble ~2 . 5 million for six months and get it bach frol'l the very ,,,orkers, give them three or four years to pay it back. 1~. ROBEnTS: They do not need $2.5 million. All of those men qualify for l'IC: and that can be built in with the $2 .5 million. ''1'. s~~ALL~InOD: That is '"hy I said even half pay, but keep them here in Nevfoundland. '"R. NEARY: to them. ''P.. SPRAKER: "!"'P. NF.fiT:Y: 'fR. ST'J1.AKEP: I"P, • C:~OSBil\: Get }'r.

Hic}-.ey back in the Province and explain that Th" hon. }finister of l'ines and Energy. r-et thP Norma and Gladys back here. 0rder, please! The ansHer is, ''r. Speaker, as I said, the government will eonsider what the hon. gentleman suggests and see if it is practical of feasible or can ,,,e ~m. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. HP. RQBERTS: >~r. Speaker, my question is also for the :t'inister of ~1ines and Energy. It is on the same subject but a little differently.

The minister has a number of times said that the government will ask,and I tll.ink these are the minister's exaet words - the receiver is interim at this stage, permanent if the Supreme Court accepts the prayer of the petition filed by the -\taka Company-that the government will ask the receivers to be generous 2839

!'a rch 11, 1C!76 Tape No. 1078 NM- 3 with the men who were being laid off with two weeks pay and little else. Could the minister indicate to the House, (

a) whether it is legally possible for the receiver to pay anything to these men other than what is legally due to them with or without a request from the government 1 and (

b) if the answer to "a" is yes, Hhat indication the govenment have that the receivers are prepared to he generous. As Your Honour knows, once a matter goes into rccejvership it is largely in the hands of the creditors, Sir, to determine what happens. The minister has several times held out this hope,and since he has said he does not want to be accused of bluff:!.ng or holding out any false hopes I wonder if he would answer this question specifically, Sir. lfR . SPEAKER: The han. l'inister of Hines and Resources. ~m CROSBI E ~ ~· r.

Speaker, ·there are always areas of doubt as to what is or is not proper for the receiver to do1 or a trustee. Insofar as the second mortgagee is concerned, we have instructed them that in any cases of doubt they are to err on the side of generosity insofar as we are concerned. Now as to just ~o~hat they are doing there,I am not privy to the lep;al advice. But I think that-as far as I understand it they .were not obliged to agree to pay vacation pay because this is an insolvent corporation.

As I understand it also that if this corporation 11ad just shut its doors no one would have been able to receive any pay for t~.ro weeks in lieu of notj ce or otherwise. But two weeks notice was given, 2840

March ll, 1976 Hr. Crosbie. Tape no. 1079 Page 1 - mw so I think that they are, you know, doing what they can within the framework that ultimately it is the other creditors whose pockets this has to come out of. But we have told them that so far as we are concerned as second mortgagees, they are to do whatever they can, and if there is any question of doubt there they are to be generous. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Justice, Sir.

The government have refused to table the legal opinions on which they have drawn the conclusion in law that the proclamation of the Termination of Employment Act would not have any affect in the face of an action under the Bankruptcy Act of Canada.

Would the minister, in view of the fact that there are competent legal opinions around which maintain that may not be the case, would the minister undertake a reference to the appropriate court, the Supreme Court of Newfoundland, to let the courts decide that issue, Sir, and not the legal advisors of the government, or indeed the ministers who are learned and put forth their opinions that they will not substantiate with documentation. HR. SPEAKER: The han. }linister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I am not prepared to give that undertaking. It is a very impractical suggestion.

As the han. gentleman who is a member of the bar knows, by the time that reference was argued and decided, and with all the appeal procedures that aEe available, it would be many, many, many, many months hence, and this would be of no benefit at all to the people whom we seek to serve. HR. ROBERTS: It might be better than what they will get now, which might be nothing. HR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Conception Bay South. HR. NOLAN: Hr.

Speaker, a question for the han. the Premier, who has indicated in the past that he or his government will make very effort to attempt to do something to delay, defer mortgages that are involved. And we all know that when things happen in courts and so on that it can go on sometimes in a time frame that will not be very helpful 2841

March 11, 1976 Tape no. 1079 Page 2 - mw Mr. Nolan . to those that are immediately concerned, because we all have mortgages, and you know what happens on whatever date in the month when your mortgage comes due. You have to pay or you get a phone call or a knock on your door .• CoulCi the Premier tell us what he has done so far, in a concrete way, and what is down the road in this regard, because it is a very serious matter, as I am sure he knows? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker , first of all the banter back and forth saying there is nothing going to happen and this sort of picayune, political comment, at a time when it is so i~ortant for these people to have every representation in a realistic way that is going to achieve something, I think it is most unfortunate. But the answer to the hon. member for Conception Bay South's(Mr.

Nolan) question, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing,who just came back, has been down ~~ith me for the last half hour- and I apologize for not being in the House previously - he has gotten his people to identify what n~r~gag e s are outstanding with Central Mortgage and Housing, Newfoundland llousing Development Corporation and other agencies, but also co-ordinateil with the task force to find out all debts that are owing by all the ~~orkers at Come By Chance.

It is not just what Newfoundland and Labrador Housing has, but what is the debt position o£ the workers themselves in a total position, because of their recent employment and the debts they felt they could retire. It is our intention as soon as we can get that information together, and every effort is being made to get that information together as quickly as possible, and as a government we ~>Till do our utmost to relieve those payments ;; that from an unemployment insurance cheque or what have you is obviously not going to be able to be met by any of the individuals themselves.

I have also been taking to the Receiver this afternoon, and asking him what he can do to help alleviate the situation. We have been talking to everybody who is concerned. I will be talking to the union members after the ~uestion Perioq today in the Cabinet 2842

March 11, 1976 Tape no. 1079 Page 3 - mw Premier Moores • room,those who are representative of the union members. Our objective, Mr. Speaker, and I want to make this absolutely clear, is to do whatever we humanly can to make a very sad situstion,not a happy one, but to make it as realistic and as humane as we possibly can. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: l!R. NOLAN: I recognize the hon. member for a supplementary.

A supplementary again to the Premier, and I am sure he understands that the problem that many of the people who have contacted me personally, and I am sure who c~ntacted him personally, is the situation that suppose, even if against their will, as I am sure the Premier knows, they are transferred to Saskatchewan or whatever for whatever period of time,that if they have to pay rent there, plus their mortgage payment to hold their property home in Come By Chance it is something they will not be able to swing financially.

And so this is why I appreciate the remarks of the Premier, and I would be happy if he would amplify any further information he or the minister that they could provide. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: The only other amplification I can give, Mr. Speaker, is that all the questionnaires to the workers have not been returned to the task force as yet. Some of them are in but, as I say, we will be doing everything possible. There may be Bankruptcy Acts that limit certain things.

There may be other conditions that limit certain possibilities, but there are areas that we, as a government, can act which are not limited by legal statute or what have you, and in those areas where we can, we intend to. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the hon. member for LaPoile, and then the member for Windsor - Buchans. 2843

"~rch 11, 1976 Tape 1080 IB-1 '1'. NEAT'Y: Houle' the hon. the Pre~rier unc'ertake to make a coJT1111itment to thi.s hon. llom;e to carry out a suggestion that T m~>rle a f!'F ~1eeks ,,go, thllt when al 1 the infonNltjon becomes availa.hle to the Premier <:~nd h:ls ministry that he P,o out to rome By Chance and holrl a public ~eetinr, or ~ series of public Feet:lngs and let the ~rorkers ann the people in that area kno~r ,,•hat :Is po:lng on? Hill the Premier unclertake tn r.1:~l<e that cormd tment? ><n. SPEAK~r: The hon. Premier. J'T'T:'"!E" I'OOJ'ES: l"r. Speaker, '''e IJill do even better than that.

As npposec' to p,o:!nr, out and play:!nr. pol1t:! .cs to the people in Come Jly rhrmce - No: Never mind playing politics. PT'Fl'IET' l'OOT'ES: - 1ve will announce it in this House ,and it w:!ll be (lone as opposer to _1ust promis:! .ng H. S0'·'f R0N'. }'f.''nl':PS: Hear, hear: FT.IC:HT: ''P SPEAKrll: VTJ PLIGHT: You mane your flctoher speech. }'r. Speaker - Orner, please: I <VouJd live to acldress this question to the '·'inister of ''i.nes and Energy.

In the event of the likely sale of the refi.nery to another co'F'!pany '''ho, Sir, 1·111] negotiate the terms of that sale and >rh<Jt rnle ldll the r;overnment or this House play :In such negotiations? '"' SPEAKET'. : 1'1'. ("'T'I'SBtE: 1'hp hon. r•:!nister of ~r:f .nes and Energy. Fell, l'r. Speaker, you knm.r, thP. receiver, if he is <1ppo:!nted,w:l1l obv:!.onsly pJay 11 role,and the t'•IO 111ortgagees will ohviouslv pJay a role, F.rrn l.•hich is connectec ,.,ith the first J"nrtr,ape fln<'l the r.overnment of Ne1vfoundlanrl ,.•ho are cnnnected ~dth the second l'lortr:<~ge.

But the mnst important peopJ e who ~·i.ll have a role jn it are the matter of the f:l.rst and second mortgagees r,rho h:'!.ve the r:fr,ht under their mortr;ages :md l1ave the po~rer o"' sale uncler thei.r mortgages. ~o the people 'Who 1voul d he involved ~1r.>uld be the rece1ver, if he is llppo:!.nted unc1er the !la11kruptcy Act, l.•bo :! s responsible to alJ the creci:!.tors 1 and the r<-ro mortp,ap,ees. 2844

"arcll 11, 19 76 Tape 1080 IB-2 l'P .• S~fl.LLv/011!1: hloul d yon permit a question? Whom precisely.; H oennanent receivers are appointed by the court, l.:rhom precisely \Ji.ll they represent? ECGn? The Nel¥foundland Government? r.o on. ~fl'. CROSl\JE: Hell, }.'r. Speaker, i.f the receiver, :1. f Clarkson or whoever is appointed by the court as receiver under the Bankruptcy Act they will represent all of the creditors. ~'P. SI'ALL•mor: All creditors. ~~. r.r>OSlliE: T'nder the Bankruptcy Act. ~'R. S"t~LLt·mon: I see. But the secured creditors have interests that are different fro~ the ordinary creditor.

The first mortgagee has the right under ~~- CROSBIE: ~is mortgage to l'ppoint h~s o"t-m receiver, because under the fi.rst mortgage he can go in and take over all the assets, under the first mortgage. The second mortp.agee has the same right under the second mortgage, to appoint our own receiver. So ECGD and the government decided to have the same receiver as all the creditors have. That receiver w:lll have to act in c'ifferent capacities. If conflict arose in the future then :l.t 111ight be necessary to have a change.

So w:lth respect to the fjrst mortp.age they will represent the first mortgagee's interest, a.nd ~<·ith the second mortr,age they \dll represent ours 1 with respect to the bankruptcy generally they '-Till represent all of the creditors. "r. Speaker, H :Is qu:!te possible that any sale will have to he approve<] by the court. rerta:lnly if it ~ras a sale by the receiver the court w:lll have to approve :1 t. The other possibility is a sale by the first and second mortgagees.

I wHl recognize the hon. gentleman for a supplementary tn his prev1ous nuestion. '""· T'LTf:T!T: 1-lould the minister advise the Pouse if it '"ill be necessl' .ry or wHl th:ls House have a chance to ratify the terms of thf' cnnrl:i. t~ons of that sale because of their involvement in the th:inp.: r:l p.:ht no••? ~'P. CROSBIE: Well, ~·r. Speaker, the House would not have Rny right to r11t:!fy the terms and cnnc:!tions of the sale. As I sa:!~, :1 t wnul tl have to be referre<l to a conrt if it is done 1:-y the trustee 2845

"«rch 11, 197fi H!'. ~ROSBIE: in bankruptcy. Tape 1080 IB-3 ~ut certainly if there is any sale or any sale snrcp;e stet" the government "•:Ill explain the tenns of the sale to the Hou.qe, and if - parron? MR. NOLAN: Defore or after? 1\efore naturally. I.Jhat woulr he the gooc1 of expl1dn:lnr: them ;;ofter, e::cept for - MR. NOLAN: That is what the povernment cl~ all the t~me. --~"'. """SBTE: r'o, not this government. The hon. gentlem~tn :1 s m:lxecl up. He thinks he :Is on the government side. The hon. gentlernanwas vPry qu-!et in telling the public anything up to 1972. P" ST'J\AR:El>: 0rder, please! I1R.

NOLAN: We brought Mr. Shaheen before this House. You brought hilT> into the !louse, that is right. You should have brought h:lrn somewhere else. ~l':Al'Y: You r.rove him out. vr. rrnsBIF: Jt :Is too hacl he ~·!as not driven out,then ~~e ~··oulr not have n bankrupt refinery clo~m there. "". SPE!\KJ\1': nrder, please! 0rt"er, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! JfR. ROBERTS: '11' • SPF..AKE!l_: '.'1'. C"0SllTF.: I wish the han. gentlemen would obey the Speaker. nrrer, ple;ose! !'<ow, Vr. Speaker, J think I was answering a question.

"'he l'ouse ~•ou1cl not h<>ve to "pprove the ter.ms on any sale unless the P.OvernT'lent of ~le••founcll anc1 has to c:1o someth:lng in connection \dth the sale. 1"'. l'"Bl':l' _TS: It ,_,('luld he n:l ce to agree to it. UJ"' c r n ~r.rr : ThE' govern!'1ent of Ne,•foundland has to agree to :1 t nnd thnt :Is n responsih1J1ty of th~ government)to agree or disap.ree. "'lw r,ovPrnment ,,,oulr:l telJ the House what the terms of any sale are. P.ut the House ~mulcl not he requ:lrec' to approve the tenns of any sale un1 ess thE' House had to vote T!loney in connect:! on "•1th :It or make 2846

~f11rch 11 , 19 76 MR. CROSBIE: Tape 1080 further loans or the government had to do something further not IB--4 now 11uthor:lzec1 hy legtslat:lon. So it is not likely the House will have to approve anything, ¥r. Speaker, but, Sir, the government would and the government ~<Tould :l.nforrn the House. 2847

March 11, 1976, Tape 1081, Page 1 -- apb 'HR., SPEAKER: I recognize the hon, the Leader of the Opposition and then the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the House Leader.

Could the House Leader indicate to us how quickly following the de­ termination by the Supreme Court of the current bankruptcy petition - and I understand there may be two, one in respect of Provincial Refining and one in respect of Newfoundland Refining - how quickly the house will be permi •· · ,:,d to debate the situation at Come By Chance and I particularly ask that with reference to the appeal periods, the periods when notices of appeal may be filed by any party to the proceedings now before the Supreme Court. How quickly are we going to be allowed to debate it, Sir? }ffi..

SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: The proceedings in court have taken actually longer than were expected. If the proceedings finish at the end of this week and then we would, I think, have to wait until the appeal period passed. But maybe there would be an indication given before the passage of the appeal period whether or not it was going to be contested. Then I would anticipate, and I see no reason why we should not go into the debate then right away. MR. ROBERTS: How long is the appeal period, thirty days? MR. WELLS: No, fourteen days in a civil case,ususlly,I think.

I would have to look at the Bankruptcy Act. I think it is fourteen days. MR. HICKMAN: Yes, it is fourteen. MR. WELLS: Fourteen, yes. ~·R. HIC.JG!J,N: We roight know in a week. MR. WELLS: Yes, unless the appeal periorl was different, and then maybe it would be made clear right at the beginning that there was not going to be an appeal,in which case we could debate it even more quickly. llnt there is certainly - mt. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary then. MIL ~PEIIKF:l> : The han. Leader of the OpposHion.. MR.

ROBERTS: Assuming there is an appeal launched -now that is not the government's decision unless the government are aggrieved

March 11, 1976, Tape 1081, Page 2 -- apb Yr>. roB'fi'"TS: as the second mortgagee although the government are not party to the action now, as I understand it - but assuming there is an appeal taken,and presumably that would be if the petition is successful by the present owners of the companies that would have been petitioned in the bankruptcy, and as the Minister of Justice in a little lecture a moment ago reminded those of us who did not knnw,in his usuaJ heloful way, are we to be barred debating this issue while the appeal process goes on? Because, Mr.

Speaker, this appeal process by right may go to the Supreme Court of Newfoundland on appeal and it could easily take six or eight months to have the matter resolved at that which means the house might not debate it for six or eight or ten months, Sir. "''R. WELLS: Well it is my opinion, Mr. Speaker, and we would have to take advice from the law officers of the Crown on this as it is a technical point, but it is my opinion that we would not be prohibited from debating it in the House during such a strung-out procedure.

Because after all, the question before the Supreme r.ourt is whether or not this company which appears to be insolvent is actually bankrupt or not, and bankruptcy is a legal state, But the whole ramifications of Come By Chance,which I expect this House would debate, are not really the subject matter of what is before the court. I personally feel, although I would obviously and we would take advice from the law officers of the Crown, but I feel that it could be debated before this house. HR. RDBF..RTS : l1R. SPEAKER: A further supplementary?

There is only time for one further question and I think I should recognize the bon. the member for LaPoile. '1R. ROBERTS: All right. HR. NF..ARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to get in a plug here for another group of fellow Newfoundlanders who are in trouble. I would like to ask the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations,now that he has had a chance to sleep on it, is he going to appoint an industrial inquiry to look into that emotional,tensed up dispute at Churchill Falls or is he just going to ignore it hoping it will go away? 2849

~l arch 11, 1976, Tat~e 1081, Page 3 -- apb "'R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations . MR . MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, I stated in the house here yesterday afternoon that I would make a decision on the request for an industrial inquiry in Churchill Falls within two or three days. The same answer holds true today to the question from the hon. the member for LaPoile CMr. Neary). The Minister of Mines and Energy stated yesterday that we would be having meetings with the management people sometime this weekend. We will be holding those meetings and we will make a decision after that time.

"ffi • WOODROW : ~ r. Speaker, would you allow one more question, please? MR . SPEAKER : Well only with leave. The question period is up and we would have to have leave of the house and the Leader of the Opposition, oresumably, would have the first question. MR. WOODROW: I see. MR.

SPEAKER: Orders of the Day - and before indicating the order,it is, as far as I can see 4:30 and so I will inform the house that unless anybody within the next minute or so is going to get me any communication, and I presume they are not, what matters will be debated at 5:30 and that way I will not have to interrupt anybody when they are speaking. There are three matters: the first- MR. ROBERTS: Is this the order of debate? HR. SPEAKER: Yes. These are the three matters and the order. Actually I only received notice of three, so it was not necessary to make any selection.

The first one, and actually this is the order in which they were submitted to me as well, the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) arising from a question asked to the Minister of Transportation and Communications and dealing with what th e hon. member describes as the rapdily deterioring condition of the Trans-Canada Highway especially West of Deer Lake; 2850

~ larc'"l ll, ]'l7('.. ~IR. SPEAKER : Tape Hl82 RH - 1 one to he brought up hy the hon. Leader of the Opposition relating to a question th11t he askerl the han. ~linister without Portfolio on the suh 1ect of the Termination of Fm"[lloyment Act; and the third and final one, the hon. member for LaPoile("r. Neary), dealinp with a question re1ated to the use of orovincial funds hy the Summer Games Committee without, in the opinion of the hen. memher, the committee follmrlng the provincial tendering procedure. Those are the three matters which will come up at five thirty. ORDERS OF THE DAY: HR.

SPl'AK'P:R : nrder (1), the Address in Reply. The debate was adjourned by the han. Hinister without Portfolio. HR. R. l\IF.l.LS: Hr. Speaker, on Tuesday I had made some J'reliminary re.marlrs 1.n tl-Jis clehate and I had dealt with what I conceive the role of a population to be, the role of the people in this Province,and also the role of gnvernment. The comment that I had specifically made, 11r.

Speaker, 11as that we were ~ettinp; to the stage in Newfoundland where the role of povernment 1Mc1 become too large,and that the people of tl-te Province were beginning to feel and beginning to believe that everything that happened jn the Province was the role of government and that government had to take action upon it. I think it is interesting, and I would refer back to the rome f.y Chance mntter for a moment, Hr.

Speaker, obviously it is the role of government wherever possible to alleviate a situation, to lvhen a difficult situ11tion arises to do 'vhat it can, what government can for the neople concerned to try and sort out the situation. Yet we see happening today in Newfoundland, ~e see pressures being put on government to do things nnil tal~e approaches th>lt have never before been taken. In other words, to rectify every wrong, every injustice, every sadness or diffi~ulty that mirht ar:lse in a civili?.ed community. Today, Mr. SpP.aker, we have govern­ ment heing asked to step in and do something ahout it.

T say that if this process continues, if it goes on and on then we ~<:! 1 J reach tl1e state of affairs mentioned in the nove] JUneteen Eighty-F_~ur long before 1984 comes, when government, as I say, will have to have every role 2851

'·'arc't 11, l'l7n. ~m. WELLS: Tape 1082 RH - 2 r.overnment 1.rill he the employer. r.overnment lvill redress every wrong. t,re can forget the courts. Whatever happens in life and whatever happens in a community persumably the way it will be is that you go to f-OVemment and you say, rectify it. I think it is very interesting that the men who were here tooay from Come By Chance and who have listened to this debate - not the dehate,but to the preliminary proceedings- they know full well what the law is and we know that they are in difficulties.

He know that thev a:r.e going to he laid off and we .. ,tmv that they are upset, worried and concerned. Yet I think it is interesting because if government takes extraordinary measures because 4R0 men are laid off, then presumably, Mr. Speaker, government will take extraordinary measures if a man is laid off at Rowrings tomorrow and cannot get another job,or if Woolco or some other department store should move out of the Province. Where does this end? So that

whereas the pressure is being put on government now to make decisions about difficult matters and crisis matters in a particular industry like Come Ry Chance, government also has an obligation to give some thought as to what precedents it is setting, where it is going to go and how it is going to handle similar situations wherever they arise. MR. MURPHY: 'MR. HJ\LLS : Five, ten, fifteen, twenty -whatever. That is right. Is it when one person is laid off? Do we give him $1,000, S2,000. When an industry employing two or three men closes, do 1ve pay that person some money?

What is going to happen if gnvernment is ash•d,and if government should be forced.,_wh:'-ch I th:'-nk would he wrong, hut to adopt these kind of roles, what is going to happen to the labour unions in the Province?

!'larch 11, 1976 Tape 1083 PK - 1 Mr. Wells: If government are going to - people talk about the minimum wage, and you up the minimum wage, and you keep on escalating it, does that mean that we are going to do away with the role of the labour union which I thought had the duty and the obligation to negotiate wages? If we are going to provide funds for severance pay or for this, that, or the other when an industry closes down or goes bankrupt or goes out of business, where are the labour unions going to stand? Are they going to have a role?

Or is everything going to be taken over by the Nineteen Eighty-Four type of government? And these are questions that are going to come back to haunt some of the people, I suspect, who are making speeches in this House, Mr. Speaker, because the more the government takes over in the way of handling these sort of roles the less that is going to be there for the trade union, the less that is going to be there for industry, and the less that there is going to be for the ordinary citizen of this Province.

And this is s omething that ~~e have got to think about, because the growth and spread of big government is something which I feel we ought to set our faces against. And the people from Come By Chance, and God knows, Mr. Speaker, we have every sympathy for them! But they have left this Chamber now. They are concerned with their own grievance. And they have left this Chamber, and they have gone down to talk with the Premier, and those lvho are not able to get into the Cabinet Room and talk to the Premier have gone their own way, wherever that is, most of them.

But the point that we cannot forget is that we have a responsibility as elected representatives of the people to make decisions that go far beyond Come By Chance , and that go on beyond and have to do with every man, woman and child in this Province, and not with this bankruptcy only, but with what happens in this Province for the next, more than a few years, for the next generation. A note has just been passed to me, bringing to my attention t he fnct th11.t the LSPU a few years ago was involved when hundreds were 2853

~\arch 11, 1976 Tape 1083 PK - 2 Hr. Hells: laid off \~ith the advent of side-loaders down here in the Port of St. John's • And the union fought and worked on that issue. But I did not notice the government of the day or the provincial government - MR. HURPRY: I was right in the middle of it, too, with my district. 11R. WELLS: That is right. I did no• . otice the provincial government being asked to pay $1,000 or $2,000 or $3,000 to the persons involved. And this is the kind of thing that is not popular, Mr. Speaker, to say this right now.

It is not popular, and it is very often in the history of parliamentary democracy, it has not been popular when when government takes the proper and right stand which is interpreted as a tough, cold, heartless stand. And government have said, oh, yes, be humane, be understanding, give this and give that. But we have a country to run. And a country which, as I said. the last day in my preliminary and opening remarks, Mr.

Speaker, this country has got to be kept afloat and running by Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who are prepared to work at it, and not by people who want only handouts from 80Vernment, and it is just as well to say it, and it is just as well to lay it out, and I would rather say it, and I would rather lay it out and mean it and not get another vote from anybody as long as I live, HR. NEARY: Hear, hear! HR. WELLS: than take the wrong approach, than SOME RON. 11EMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

WELLS: take the soft approach, the easy approach, the giveaway approach, and to say to hell with this country, and what happens to it. Because if we go that route, Mr. Speaker, that is where we are going to go, we are going to go right down the drain. It is time it was said, and it is time it was adhered to. And I did not intend it, since we are debating Come By Chance every day in the Question Period, and every day on statements of ministers, and everyt~ing else, and we are going to debate it in the late show this afternoon, but I will 2854

'lo.rch 11, 1976 Tape 1083 rK - 3 rtr. ~le Us : still come back to 1t ap,ain now, and say that the right thing must I.e done. And I feel that the right thing in this case is to approach lt frOM the point of view of trying to arrange a l'lOrat oriUJ'll on ln tcrest, or at least a moratorium on payments to prevent people havinr. to sell their houses at fire sale.pr:ices, to prevent that s ort of hardship occu r:ring , But not to say because an ind us try roes insolvent or bankl:upt t hat the government has to s tep in and l'cep a group of people ! And I appreciate the hon. member from Twillingate(llr.

Smallwood) in his suggestion of keeping the work force tor;cther . ln some cir:cumstances - and maybe thi s is one of t !wm, and we 11il.l look at it- i t would he a good s ugges tion, But 1 vould not vant 2855

¥arch 11, 1~76 Tape No. 1084 IDl- 1 NR. IlEUS: to postpone the evil hour six months and then have to have them go to Calgary or wherever they are going to go. In other words, six months hanging on the end of a string earning or drawing less than they are used to drawing,only to find in the end that the problem has not been alleviated. But,as I say,we will look at it and we will consider every avenue and every application of such a principle.

But 1 cannot guarantee and the government cannot guarantee,and it would be wrong to guarantee, that this can be done 1 because what have been suggested in the House today are very new departures. And I know it is impossible to impugn motives in this House of Assembly,but I think that a great many of the questions that have come from the opposite side~and not from the hon. gentleman from Twillingate (Hr. Smallwood), who is very responsible in what he says, but a great many- HR. NEARY: l<J? . WELLS : Name the members.

Some of the nembers sitting directly opposite me, I felt that some of the questions and some of the attitudes taken today were as a result of the galleries being full of the people who were afflicted and effected by this situation and I think it is not - Hll. NEAJ>Y: You are not referring to me! MR. WELLS: No. No. No. I think it is not good enough and I think it is an indication of where politics has got to in this Province, ~~r. Speaker. I am going to talk about another area too because this is a non-confidence motion we are on.

The Leader of the Opposition has moved,as is his right to do, a motion of non-confidence and the actual ~vording of it does not matter. He is inviting the members of thi~ House to vote against the government, to defeat the government, to show a la~k an~ a want of confidence in the government. So I fee] as principal, as lead-off spokesman in this debate speaking for the government, I feel I have a right and a duty at this time, ~ ' r. Spf>aker, to treat many avenues of government and many areas of life in this Province and examine them and have a say on them on behalf of government.

And in fact the rules provide for this and r,i.ve me unli.mited time,and I hope that I will not take too much time 2856

"arch 1 J, 1075 Tape No. 1084 m• -?. ''!'. •mu.s: hut I 11m p;oing to enquire and to examine into various aspects of the life and the government of this Province today. tmd first, ~'r. Speaker, I am Eoing to talk about Labrador. No1' I have been dov.'Tl to Labrador over the years many times ,and most times I have r,one in a private professional capacity on law cnst>s i.n the courts. Rut even in these cases I have got something of the attitude that is prevalent in Labrador.

And in more recent months and years I have gone dm.m on governmental matters and I have had even more opportunity to get a feel for what is going on in L:chrador and the attitudes that are there and the most recent ca.~e '':1s Hhen '[ ,,rent dm-m to Lal1rador just before r.hristmas, I think the llouse Has still open - 1'1" S>!ALI..wnnn: Hr. SpE'aker, on a point of order. r.ould Your Honour instruct the officials to stop the loud conversation going on? It is interferring with the conduct of our business here. }'B. WELLS: I think, !lr. Speaker, the hon. member is quite right.

It is disconcerting to follow a train of thought when ~here is so much background noise. '!ll. SPEAKE" . (DR. COLLI~lS): The officials of the House are taking the matter in hand. The han. }'inister Hithout Portfolio. ~rr. WELLS: Speaking about a trip to Labrador and a message that came across to me loud and clear was that there is a very great and deep feeling of disaffection in Labrador, disaffection toward the Province of Ne~vfoundland, or more specifically I suppose, disaffection to the Island of Newfoundland.

That was there,and we went down and I think no P.OVernment could have done more than send the Premier- when I say send, he 1-ms the prime mover. He went. lie is the leader of the administration - the Premier of the Province, the Minister of Municipal Affairs involved with housinr.,of course,who went also, the member for the district who went also and I who \vent as lvell. And 1-1e went down to talk to the people concerned about the matter of Churchill Falls, about the delay and about the effect it would have on the community of Goose Bay - llnppy Valley. !,nd I tdll say, fo.lr.

Speaker, and there is no question about H, PC had a very tough time. Now I do not mind that 1 and the Premier 2357

"arch 11, 1')76 Tape No. 1084 NM- 3 ~., . I~J.LS: does not mind that, nor the other members and the 1-'inis ter o f ~<'un ici pal Affairs , but it uas a hostile time, and it was not just ho~ tility over what went on . It tia S not just hostility over Churchill fall:<~, but a whole hositility toward the Island of Newfoundland t~hich as 1 see it and interp r et it is one of the saddest t hings that could possibly be developing in this Province because it is n siy,n of one part of the Province setting its face against another. 2858 •

March 11 , 1976 Tape no. 1085 Page 1 - mw Hr. Well s . And I think that what we heard in the news this week or last lfeek, when a movement among the Chamber of Commerce - was it in Wabush or Labrador City? MR . ROBERTS: Labrador City and Habush. MR. HELLS: ----- Labrador City and Wabush,to talk in terms of breaking away from the Province of Newfoundland and setting up another entity, whatever it might be, a territory or anything else, I think this is one of the saddest things that could happen.

Now I think we, as public men in this Province, have a duty, and people living on the Island of Newfoundland, citizens also, have a duty to think about this and to examine the factors to see if there is any justification for it, because if there is justification then we have a duty and a responsibility to do something about it. Now we know that people living in the Labrador part of this Province live in a relative degree of isolation. We know that when you get away fom Wabush and Labrador City and Churchill Falls the economic underpinnings are not great.

It is no good for anybody to say that the Coast of Labrador has a sound economic underpinning because it has not. If the people on the Coast of Labrador were required to live and exist on their own financial resources they would be in tents, if that, or in mud huts, Mr. Speaker, because there is not the economic activity generated there to pay for one-tenth even of whnt they have in the way of public services, and I think that should be said.

As I think it should be said in the point made that even what they have, and God knows it is not enough, but what they have has come from the people of Canada and from the people of Newfoundland who live on this Island part of the Province, and the people of Labrador who live and work in Churchill Falls, altnougn tney nave only been there a recent few years, and the towns of Labrador City and Wabush. The coastal areas of Labrador cannot maintain themselves economically. As I say, if they were cut adrift and left to themselves, the people would be in a very, 2859

March 11, 1976 Tape no. 1085 Page 2 - mw Mr. Wells. very sad hard state. They feel bitter. I know they do. But not all the bitterness, Mr. Speaker, is justified.

These things have to be a two-way street, and I think that the most that can be done is that the people of the Coast of Labrador and the communities in Labrador that have this feeling and that are undergoing these difficulties, have got to understand that there is only so much that this Province can give them .- and when I say this Province I mean Newfoundland and Labrador - and that they have a responsibility also to do whatever they can to educate themselves, and I do not mean just educate themselves in academic learning 1but to understand the forces of government and the economy, to do what they can to work.

If necessary, and if that means leaving home,then that is fair enou gh, that they can leave and possible go back, but we all, in this Province and in this country have an obligatinn to work and make whatever efforts we can. Because many individuals in Newfoundland and Labrador and this Province,and what was a country before Confedederation, have proven that it is possible to pull themselves up even by their boot straps and nake something of themselves.

And I get back to this point again, we cannot just turn to government for everythin& and say, it is your responsibility, you have got to do this, I have not got that, it is your responsibility to provide it for me. It is more than that, Mr. Speaker. There are more responsibilities than the mere responsibilities of government. And I say that, and I will keep on saying it, and if I am thrown out of this House by the voters for keeping on saying it, well that is fine with me also. But it has got to be said.

Let us have a look at what is going into Labrador in the way of financial resources, money, to try to get Labrador on its feet. Let us take Labrador Linerboard, and I am going to refer to the Linberboard later on in my remarks. Do you know, Mr. Speaker, that I believe in this last year or so .- and I have not got the figures at my fingertips- but I believe that the amount of subsidy of Labrador Linerboard that is going 2860

March 11, 1976 Tape no. 1085 Page 3 - mw into the Goose Bay area to subsidize that woods operatio n is sometbing of the order of $10 million. That, !-tr . Speaker, is $10 million out of the pockets of the taxpayers of this Province, going right into that one community by way of a subsidy to keep a '~oods operation going. ~IR . SHALL\~000: Over what period? MR. \~ELLS: One year . 2861

Tape 11J8fi RH - 1 Last year. MR. }llJRPHY : 'MR. WELLS: Last year. Last year, this year, the year we are in now. That is a fantastic figure, $1~ million, well give or take $SIJI),IJO~ or so. And I believe - ~1R. SMI\LLHOOD: ~fay I ask the hon. minister a question? MR. ~JF.T,LS: Yes, yes. !IR. SHALLHOOD: If the total operating loss of the paper mill at Stephenville is "x" amount of money, does the minister mean that of that "x" amount a certain portion is accounted for by the excessive cost of the wood producen there and brought to Stephenville.

Is that what he means by the $10 million? ~'1\. !>'ELLS: Yes, that is precisely. The total amount is much larger. It is of the order of $20 million, $25 million.I should thing. Rut of that approximately $10 million is going into that one community by way of subsidi­ zation for the wood. AN JTO~T. !IIDfBER: But is it all wood? NR. HELLS: Oh, yes! That is the only thing that is done there, wood and transportation, etc., the cost of wood to the plant. Fantastic!

This is a figure that should be kno"~· I well remember that night that we were do~m there in \,oose Bay .and when the government of which I am a part was castip,:1ted up, dovm and sideways by people who were \>orried and upset , - and J know why they were,and I understand that - but at the same time these are the kinds of things that ought to be remembered.

This year with all the difficulties that face the p;overnment financially,and the difficulties involving the Churchill Falls, as the Minister of Mines and Energy said tonay the transm:l.ss:!on line into Happy Valley-Goose Bay is a part of the project that is going ahead, that is ongoing and being produced, that dPmonstrates along <>ith the keeping of the linerboard aspect of that going, t~1:1t demonstrates something of our concern for that conununity. But let me mRk<? another point. You talk about fault, whose fault is this and whose 2862

l·!«rch 11, 11176. H"Jl. !rf'LLS: Tape J.n86 RH - 2 f«ttlt is taat. l!r. Speaker, that community came about as a result of decisions made in Hashington and London really at the beginning of the Second \olorld 1·)ar. There was a community there - I have no doubt the hon. member for Twillingate (J!r. Smallwood) probably visited it before the war -but . it was not 1'\Uch of a community. That commtmity came about because of the Seconil l•Yorld l?ar hy decisions made thousands of miles from St. John's. The underpinninr.s are being knocked out of that community by decisions ar,ajn taken thousands of miles from St.

John's in the year 1974-75 about the phase-out of the American forces. Yet hy some strange alchemy the people of that community are looking right at St. John's, right at the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador and in effect seeming to say that, '' ~t is your fault.' ' Now what I say, and there is no one wishes prosperity for Labrador more than I, Mr. Speaker. To me it is a thrill to get there. I think I would rather go to Labrador any day and I feel a greater sense of enjoyment and a greater thrill when I set foot there than when I go to the mainland or an~vhere else. It is a wonderful country. AN HON.

MEMBFR: How about Florida? '~ R. FI'.LT.S: l'J ori.<la, yes, the hon. memher says • He and I share one thing in common. I think we love Florida. Clearwater. ~~R. HELLS: And - T'ardori? Clearwater. HOl. IVELLS: It is the mainland, yes. I love Florida, to feel the warm sun beating down, grand. MR. SMALLWOOD: In the Winter~ ~ 'R. \.JELLS: In the Winter. Of course, the danger of debating when the han. member for Twillingate err. Smallwood) is in the House, he leads one into delight - MR. ROUSSEAU: Back to Happy Valley. ~~. ¥illLLS: Oh, yes. The danger- MR. ROUSSEAU: Have you been to Labrador in the Winter? 2863

Harch 11, 1976. Tape 1086 RH - 3 HR. TI.OU~SFAU: Obviously, you have not been to T.ahrador in the Winter. HR.. \,TELLS: Oh, I have and it is gorgeous. The curious thing is I have heen down to Goose Bay as long as ten days in the Winter with the temperature about twenty below zero - I do not know what this is on Celsius - and it is absolutely refreshing. MR. RQ!JSSEAU Twenty below? . That is our reading in the Summer. MR. IITF.LLS: Well, that is it. ~ell, you know. HR. SNAJ.LHOOD: If the minister would allow me to say. I have never seen it as ~ot in Florida at any time in my life as I have known it to be Labrador.

I have been there when it was 108 and 109 degrees in the shade. fiR. WELLS: I./ell I must say,yes. The hon. member is perfectly right. MR . SHALL WOOD: That is not in January. Nn • li'ELLS : No. But I have been there myself when the temperature was I think, 93, 94 in Summer and yet - AN JlflN. [E~ffi F..R : ~1hen was that? HR. l-TELLS: Actually that was when the bulldozers were first in the Carol Lake area. I remember being there one day. But talking about the Winter, though,and the delightfulness of the climate, with the sun beating down1 twenty below zero, the funny thing is you do get a lift of spirits.

And I have come back in the plane and flown into the wall of cloud as you get half way over Newfoundland and yet felt as refreshed as if I had heen down - what is it they call it? The Sun Coast. HR. SflALLWOOD: Has the hon. minister ever been in Labrador in July and a heavy snowfall? 2864

t<arch 11, 1976 Tape 1087 IB-1 I!P .• lillLLS: No, I have not. Labrador has been kinder to me than that. The resi~ents from time to time have been a bit critical but no, I have not. The other point I have to ~a~e an~ I think ~ust be m-'1<'" :In consfcler:l.ng I.abra(lor, too, vis-A-vis the government an~ the t·rhoJ e T'rnv1nce, ''r, Speaker, is that there has never heen in the history of the Province, the h:lstory of the country, so much money beinr spent in I.a}.rn<'or, on the roast of I.abrar'or, as there 1 R no~· be:lng spent and as 'ftas heE'n spent in the 1 RSt fet•' years.

I dn not put all the crer'it of that tn the Province and the p,overnment of the Province. ~he fecleral p;overnment must be complimentec there. It has pourecl and 1t :Is in the course of pourinr ~illions upon m:!Jlions upon millions of c1ollars into wtter and sewerage syste~. s, :lntn roa~s, into fish plants, hait hold:lnp; units, the tvhole bus:l .ness of putt1np; an infrastructure nnd tryi.nr, to put econom;l c unc1erp:lnninp; unoer the coast of Labrador.

I think it v:lll prove :lnterestinr: eventu.'ll1y vhen <Je fet on to purely finl'lndRl !Tl8.tters after the burlget ;md t.rh:!Je the estimates <rrP be:lnr, cl:lscussed to _iust look at the k:lnd of IT'oney, federal anc'l provinc:l;d ;th:~t is heinr, spent in Labrador to c1o someth:lnr. to c1evl?lop th;~t part of t h i s Prov:lnce.

I th:lnk that the people of J,ahra~or O"-'e :1 t tn this T'rov:lnce, and to this country of Canac'la of ~orhich thev .'lr.e a p<rrt, they o1•e 1t not to t;~te an nep,ative attitnde, not to tRke an :Jttitune T,Jhich is entirely cr:ltical-anc1 not all of them no hnt some people C.o ;mrl Jet us sa" H. 1 think they m re it to this Province tn rP.alize that they are part of the Province and that the Province ;md the federAl governl"'ent, the cnuntry, is investing vast smns in T.11hraclnr ana that i n most respects, a.nd in the respect of spencling T"nney, ;tR IT'UC'lt :1 s heing r'one as can be r1one because j f SClme Clf the thinp.:s t1•.'1t are bein~ pnt :In Labrador han tn he pa.:l.c1 for by the taxes of the 2865

Tape 1087 1B-7 people of L::t],rN1nr they vrould nrt he put there, "r. Speaker, for 150 ye~. rs. T clo not regret this. T l'lm glacl to see :It go there, glad l'lS any hoc1y in th:! s Province, hut there are taxes ,r suppose ,that have come out of Labr11clor since the sett]ern.ents first ~'ent there ,.ill never p<1y1 or ~nul cl not P!!Y if they were all ac1c1ec1 toJ:rether, 1,•hat fs go1ne in there, And t sav great. I AT1 clelfghtecl as a c:!t1zen that my tnxes "re ro:inr there <>nil ;~s a !Tlernber of f'"''<'rnl'lent to see ns cloinp. it ;~ncl the fec'er;~] rnvc>TPment cloinp; :!.t.

Tint I think - ~'""'. l'"TT"PHY: Tt" js the Coast nf Lahrni'or, I pTe~nme More th~n the 1-Jestern part. ~·r. l11"LLS: nh yes. Not the 1·1estern, no, not the Hestern. 11e are not tnlk:!nr ;~bnut 1.Tf'!'tern Lahr!!clor. That is a c1:ffferent matter ,, together. These are econotl'icl'lJ ly viable commnn:fties, a ro1np: C'nncern. I hl'l.sten to ac'cl hef.nre the hon. member leaps to his feet to i.nterrupt yne - He exploc'es. He explodes, absolutely. You kno~r, these are a cljf.f.erent - n01•' J am not snp:r,est:!ng that these communities have not p,ot prohletr's, prol--lems of cl:!st<>nce, problems of clim11te - HR.

SMALLWOOD: Problems of prosperity. ~1R. IVELLS: Problems of prosperity, perhaps. HR. MURPHY: And wealth. Ancl veal th to some extent. But there are prohlel'ls hut they pre c'ifferent prohlems from the problems c>f the roe.st of L>1hrador. 1'-nt rA1a t T 1111' really l'lay:fng here -ts that J think 1~hat 1-1e have tc> ilo :In rovernment and as mel"hers of government and l'lell'bers of this House :Is not necessar:!Jv to put more ll'Oney into Labrador. That, I think, :Is be:fng dnne and being done to a very, very great extent. vfuat 1 be] :1 eve we have to show, ~'r. Speaker, is a greater presence in Labrac'or.

I t.•on1 c1 J jke to l'lee my colleaf_(ues - and the member I believe agrees ,.r-lth "'"· T say to my colleagues in the HousP 11nrl l'lY colleagues in r;nvernro<>nt, let us from hpre on,:rf 1.re have nnt been clo:!np, it enough, let us mll.ke a resolve to show not just money- we are doing that - but 2866

"arch 11, 1976 TRpe 1087 IB -3 H'!i:T.L~ : let us !<h0t·' 11 rreater presence in J.ahrP.dor, and let us shm-1 the peofl] e of J.at-rac!or that it iR part of this Province and thl'lt •Je are concerner, not just concerner enouph to speak ahout it in this House bnt concernerl enour;h to h;nre onr presence there and to invtte their presence here. 2867

~~arch 11, 1976 Tape 1088 PK - 1 Mr. Wells: Because at all costs, Nr. Speaker, and for the good of all, we must insist and we must make this one viable Province. I ~~ould also caution the people of Labrador against something,and this is connected with the forthcoming, we hope, development and finding of offshore oil and gas on the Labradcr Shelf. I would hope very much, Nr.

Speaker, that the people of Labrador do not feel that they can lay down hard and fast conditions: You know, we have to realize that if the Labrador Shelf is developed, if oil and gas is found in commerical quantities,that it is going to be not only money, it is not going to be the money of Newfoundland and Labrador or the Province, it is going to be money of hard-nosed investors elsewhere in the world, and many of them, who are going to develop this. It is going to be money of private enterprise from outside of Newfoundland,and largelytl suspect 1from outside of Canada that is going to do this.

And there is only so much we can tell these people ~•ithout their walking away. And oil companies and oil interests have walked away. Down in Indonesia they have walked away when government tried to be confiscatory of oil companies' assets. Now I am not saying that we give them carte blanche, and that we say, "You go in and do what you like, and do not care about ~lewfoundlanders, and do not care about Labradorians, just do what you " like. No, by no means.

But I am saying.that we must not be unreasonable, and we must take the position that you. develop and you develop according to rules and regulations that we lay down, and that you pay your fair share of what you are making out of this to the Province and to the country that makes it possible. We must say that. But let us not get too big in our boots, Hr. Speaker, and lay down the law and think we can make everything stick. MR. MURPHY: Price ourselves out of the market. HR. WELLS: That is right. I notice in dispatches that have been 2868

Harch 11, 1976 Tape 1088 PK - 2 ~ 1r. lvells: received back from Scotland and from - AN RON. HEMBER: The Orkney Islands. MR. WELLS: Not the Orkney Islands, the Shetland Islands, where one of the members of this House is now with a group, that they are talking about the Shetland IslandeTs and the great things that they have done to get the maximum benefit from offshore 6il and gas. And they have, Mr. Speaker, they have, And I know, and I have met personally and talked with Mr.

Ian Clark who is the chief executive of the Council of the Shetland Islands, and he told me some of the goings on that took place and some of the negotiations leading up to the kind of deal that the Shetland Islands have. But it was fortune from their point of view, their location, because the thing with the Shetland Islands was purely location,and I think it was Shell Oil wanted to start up,and they are in fact working at it now,to bring oil into the Shetland Islands from one of the northern fields in the North Sea. And they met with a Shetland Islands Council~ and Mr.

Clark is not a Shetland Islander, I think he is a chartered accountant by profession from Edinburgh, a very, very intelligent good negotiator and bargainer- and they met with Mr. Clark and others and they discussed it.

And the conditions laid down by the Shetland Islanders were such ~hat the oil companies said, ,jNo, we \I are not going to have anything to do with it, And they were going to walk out of the room, "And the Shetland Islanders said; "Well that is fine, "We did not want you anyway because we are \vorried about the environmental affects of your bringing the oil ashore, We do not really care if you come or not, and if we can give you introductions to any- body in the Orkneys to help you out there, well we would be only too glad to do so .'1 And they did not care whether the oil came there or not.

And that was the position that they took. But before the negotiations ended and fell down altogether then the oil company came back and they negotiated a comprehensive deal which provides for the saving of the environment in the Shetland Islands, and also for considerable revenue. But it is not a rip-off, and it does not 2869

:tarch 11, 1976 Tape 1088 Pl< - 3 llr. \tells: jeopardize the ability of the oil companies to operate in these northern Scottis h or Shetland waters. I said Scottish , I probably should not have, Mr. Speaker . The Shetland Islanders ,as far as r can make out,do not regard the Shet land Islands as part of Scotland. I ~1a:: told by a man fron there t hat they regard themselves as Shetland Islanders only , and Scotland is Scotl<md, and England is Cnt:lan d .

And after t he First ~orld 1-!ar,whic h is now two, three generations ago, some people came from Scotl and , a group of people and se ttl ed there~ I thin k they were fishermen- and even toda y t heir grandson .s as a group who have married and lived there all their lives are sti ll referred to as the Scotties , but they are not Shetland Islander s . MR. MURPHY: Foreigners . !IR. \JELLS: Foreigners 2870

"arch ll, 1976 T11pe 1089 IB-1 vn. HELLS: in a sense. Rut, you know, they have acloptecl a good position. '!'hey have many th:lnr,s that they can teach us, But I say this to the peop] e in L.<>.hraclor; Do not feel they we can ] ay clown all the concUt:l.ons, and clo not feel that yon can lay clown all the conclH:Ions for the oil compan:les because the extraction of o:IJ ancl gas,if it is found there :In commercial quanti ties, is roing to have, in the final ana.l ys:!s, ''r.

Spe11ker, going to have to be ~ partnership between the feclera1 go,rernment-nr f:lrst the prov:l.ncial government, the federal government, the oil companies and the local authorities of the people who are closest to the f:leJ cls. llnyboc'ly vJho does not recop:nize the elements nf part!1ersh:1p :In this,I am afraic'l, l'r. Speaker, is going to be in for a very