Manitoba Hansard — 22 November 1990 (Sitting 30A, 35th Legislature, 1st Session)

35-1-30a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

•G-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fifth Leglslature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 39 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXIX No. 30A-1:30 p.m. , THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 1990 ISSN 0542-5492 Printed by the Offlce of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Leglslature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold , Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton. Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MclNTOSH, Linda MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack, Hon. PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

Liberal NOP NOP Liberal Liberal NOP Liberal NOP PC PC PC PC NOP NOP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NOP NOP PC PC NOP Liberal PC NOP PC NOP Liberal NOP PC NOP PC NOP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NOP PC NOP PC PC PC PC NOP PC NOP PC PC NOP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, November 22, 1990 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I have for Honourable Members Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, Manitoba Health Services Commission and the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS BILL 22-THE STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 1990-91 Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I move, on behalf of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae), seconded by the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr.

Ducharme), that leave be given to introduce Bill 22, The Statute Law Amendment Act, 1990-91; Loi de 1990-1991 modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Recycling Program Funding Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): We have all alerted our families, Mr. Speaker, and we will not rest very easily tonight knowing the whole ship of the state is in the charge of the infamous Deputy Premier. However, my question is to the Deputy Premier and it is a very serious question.

We have been very concerned for some time about the choices the Government is making dealing with our environment, and Government is about choices. Often politicians, and all of us to some degree, are behind the public of Manitoba. My question is to the Deputy Premier . We have a situation where the blue bag recycling program is going down in the City of Winnipeg, something that is very successful and offers great promise to our landfill sites and our environment.

At the same time, this Government is putting $1 million of public money, provincial money, into the Ducks Unlimited office building at the Oak Hammock Marsh. Will the Deputy Premier agree to stop the money going into the Ducks Unlimited project at the Oak Hammock Marsh and reallocate that money for recycling across the province, something that is environmentally sound, rather than the project the Government is funding that is environmentally unsound? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): I thank the Leader of the Opposition for that question.

I do not accept the premise of it as to the information that he has put on the record, and I will allow my colleague the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) to deal on specific terms as it relates to the Oak Hammock Marsh. Let me make it very clear, Mr.

Speaker, my Premier and this Government's commitment to the environment, as demonstrated in the work that is being done in the cleaning up of the former Manfor site, which was operated under the previous administration, by the environmental work that is being done as it relates to any future activities, as it relates to Repap, as it related to the Oak Hammock Marsh and the total environmental hearings and process that it has gone through, this Government's record is absolutely clear and understandable by the people of Manitoba and will far outweigh and stand up to the scrutiny compared to the previous administration of this province. •

(1335) Mr. Doer: The answer to the question is no. We will keep the money, the $1 million going in the Oak Hammock Marsh, and we will allow the blue bag recycling program to go down. My second question to the Minister or the Deputy Premier is -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources):Yes, Mr. Chairman, ona point of order,

1666 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 1990 I know that the Leader of the Opposition would not willingly want to deliberately put on the record a distortion, a falsehood, something that is not true. There is not a cent of public money going to the office complex of Ducks Unlimited at Oak Hammock Marsh. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Minister does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Doer: The Minister is on record time and time again outlining how much money from the tourism agreement and from the other departments is going into the proposed Oak Hammock Marsh.

Point of Order Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): I want to echo the comments of my honourable friend, the Minister of Natural Resources. There is not a tourism agreement going into the Oak. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Minister does not have a point of order. Order, please. *** Mr. Doer: We will table the money for the Ducks Unlimited complex, Mr. Speaker. It is on the public record in considerable numbers of places. It Is not even a point of debate. Rafferty-Alameda Dam Project Government Action Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I have a further question to the Deputy Premier. Today we have a court case proceeding on the Rafferty-Alameda dam dealing with the two brothers from Saskatchewan in Manitoba. We have not yet been able to discern the continguency plan that the Government has on the Rafferty-Alameda dam and its downstream effect and impact on Manitoba. In fact, Mr. Speaker, last week in Regina the court included affidavits from provinces like Quebec with no affidavits even from Manitoba.

My question to the Deputy Premier is: What is the next move with the provincial Government to protect the Manitoba water quality and quantity in terms of the proposed Rafferty-Alameda dam? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings) has been dealing with this matter very capably. Let me further add that I think the Member'. should we,11 know that when matters are before the court, it would be inappropriate for me to speak to that issue at this particular time. Conawapa Dam Project Envlronmental Review Process Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I do not blame the Government for being embarrassed when the Province of Quebec puts an affidavit in on the Rafferty-Alameda dam and this Government' ducks the whole issue, Mr. Speaker. My final supplementary is to the aActing Premier. We have been unable to determine the precise course of action dealing with environmental impacts. on the Co,nawapa project.

Is the Government now negotiating with the federal Government to have a joint environmental process subject to the Public Utilities Board decision next week, or is the Government going to have a separate environm1mtal process dealing with the Manitob~ environmental licences and a separate procese dealing with the federal environmental process? i Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr Speaker, let me make it very clear, it has been the Government's position that all the necessary environmental hearings and processes will be carried out dealing with the Conawapa and Bipole 3 line.

As it relates to discussions with the federal Government, I will leave that to the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), who is responsible for that jurisdiction . Involuntary Sterlllzatlon Government Polley Mr. Dave Chomlak (Klldonan): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae). We welcome the Law Reform Commiss ion Report, which will examine the question of involuntary sterilization.

In light of some concerns that have been expressed that the practice may have occurred perhaps on a regular basis in the province, will this Minister undertake a review in his department of the practice in Manitoba to ensure that no involuntary sterilizations took place in' Manitoba? Hon. Cls1yton Manness (Acting Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I will

November 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1667 take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister .Jf Justice. '

(1340) Involuntary Sterlllzatlon Government Polley Mr. Dave Chomlak (Klldonan): Mr. Speaker, in light of the fact that these alleged involuntary sterilizations may have been disguised in some cases as required medical treatment, will he also pledge to undertake a review that would consider !he medical factors involved in these cases? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I should have caught the eye of my colleague the House Leader (Mr. Manness), but did not. When that

article and the contained allegations appeared in the paper this morning, I took the matter very seriously and asked my Mental Health Division to report immediately as to whether there was any semblance of truth to the suspicions expressed in that article. I can indicate to my honourable friend ,ind to the House that has not been, is not, nor do they believe ever been a policy that has been followed by any Government present or previous in the Province of Manitoba. Involuntary Sterlllzatlon Legislation Mr. Dave Chomlak (Klldonan): Mr.

Speaker, thank the Minister for that response and I recognize that it may have not been a policy, but my initial question to the Minister was whether or not he could examine whether the practice has taken place . My final supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the Acting Minister of Justice is whether or not this Government has considered any legislation in this :egard. Hon. Clayton Manness (Acting Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I cannot give a broad definitive answer to that 'question. I will refer that question also to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae).

Bankruptcy Rates Government Initiatives Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier. The statistics released yesterday show that businesses and individuals in the Province of Manitoba are continuing to experience bankruptcy rates at unprecedented levels . Last year more than 1,800 companies went bankrupt, and if the present trend continues we will have 2,250 by the end of this year, which is an unprecedented level in the Province of Manitoba .

Can the Deputy Premier tell the House, in that the jump was nearly 50 percent---47 percent to be exact-for last month alone, what specific plans this Government has to reverse Manitoba's spiralling economy as documented by these statistics? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, let me thank the Leader of the Second Opposition Party in the House for that question and first of all say that any time you deal with bankruptcies you are dealing with unfortunate situations, whether it is personal or business, and it is not a very comforting situation. I certainly want to acknowledge that.

However when one looks at the activities as it relates to bankruptcies in Manitoba, compared nationally we are in a better standing than the majority of the rest of the provinces. I say that we have an economic strategy-which was spelled out in the budget, which was spelled out in the throne speech-with some of the initiatives that have been announced particularly in northern Manitoba , some of the discussions that have taken place with the Departments of Agriculture both provincially and federally. There are plans to work towards the improvement of the Manitoba economy . Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr.

Speaker, the only reason our stats are even better than some of the provinces is because they were so much worse last year. So it is a cumulative problem in the Province of Manitoba . Can the Deputy Premier tell this House what specific initiatives his Government has to get Manitobans off of the street, off of the welfare rolls-whic h in this city alone have climbed by 1 0 percent-and help provide them with the jobs so they can help themselves and their families live in a decent way in the Province of Manitoba? Mr. Downey: Mr. Speaker, I could maybe help the Member out with some of the numbers that Manitoba has.

There are eight provinces that have shown greater bankruptcies than the Province of Manitoba, October over October of this year. Manitoba's percentage increase was something like 20 percent to bankruptcies, which as I say is a difficult situation. t

1668 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 1990 However, compared nationally, which is up 42 percent to 45 percent, I think we are not doing that badly. let me say as well that when you compare it to Ontario, which is over 100 percent increase in bankruptcies, again I think we have to say that we are doing some things right. Our Government, over the past two and a half years, has shown an economic initiative and direction that is going to lead, over the 1990s, our way out of this difficult situation.

I can refer to the activities that are taking place in the northwest region of the province with the proposed investment of Repap, with the investment of lnco of some $287 million in Thompson and the Hydro investment that will take place at Conawapa. Unemployed Help Centres Funding Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the bankruptcy rates went up 47 percent in this province month to month. Will the Minister of Family Services accept a positive suggestion?

Will the Minister now begin to re-fund the unemployed help centres, because their numbers are growing daily, because there are more and more unemployed and because the federal legislation has already indicated that the ones who will be most affected in this province are low-income earners. Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Famlly Services): Mr. Speaker, again I do not accept the statistics that the Member puts forward . My department is monitoring the situation with Income Security very carefully. We will be announcing in the near future increases in rates for the next fiscal year. *

(1345) Metls Chlld and Famlly Services Funding Ms. Becky Barrett (Welllngton): Mr. Speaker, recently received a letter from the Manitoba Metis Federation, which I will now be glad to table. This letter stresses the need for culturally sensitive programming for Metis children, children who now become involved with Child and Family Services agencies. These children are often placed up to 60 percent in non-Metis homes. This letter also discusses the problem of inadequate funding and the fact that there has been no increase for two years to the Metis Child and Family Services : agency . Mr.

Speaker, will the Minister of Family Services · tell this House why his department has neglected , the needs of Metis children across Manitoba and 1 why there have been no increases to the Metis Child · and Family Services agency to allow them to develop programing that will ensure proper care for Metis children? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Famlly Services): I thank the Honourable Member for the question and would point out to her that this is not ! an issue that just appeared in recent years, that the , Party which she is a Member of had 16 years to deal · with it.

I can tell you that I met recently with · leadership from the Manitoba Metis Federation to" discuss Child and Family Services agency issues. J, will be meeting again with them tomorrow in , Dauphin. While we are not prepared to accept a stand-alone agency, we are actively working with that association to address some of the issues that they have put before us. Registry Ms. Becky Barrett (Welllngton): Mr.

Speaker, after his meeting tomorrow afternoon, will the Minister implement a registry system, which has also been a major concern of the Manitoba Metis Federation, that will allow them to identify the number of Metis children who are currently in care as well as enable them to more closely monitor the number of children who requin3 care? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Famlly Services): Mr. Speaker, in our discussions two weeks ago with Mr.

Dumont and other members of the Metis association, we have put forward some ideas which we think will enhance the care of Metis children who come into care with social service agencies. We will be meeting with them again tomorrow to further discuss these issues, and I think that the situation is in hand at this time. We would look forward to any new initiatives that the Manitoba Metis Federation puts before us. Mandate Ms. Becky Barrett (Welllngton): There is a new initiative that the department has had for a year and a half.

When will this Minister-he said he is not able to accept a stand-alone agency at this time. When will the Minister of Family Services give the Manitoba Metis Federation a mandate to provide

November 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1669 services for Metis children and guarantee them a ievel of funding that will allow them to provide these services in a culturally appropriate , community based system? Hon . Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, we discussed this issue , as I indicated, and the answer was no. While this was not the answer that the Metis association was looking for, they appreciated that they finally did get a definite answer .

The fact that I think people have led them to believe over the years that there was going to be a movement in this direction has led to a certain degree of frustration . We are actively ursuing some suggestions that have come forward by hiring additional Metis people for Child and Family Services agencies and carrying on ongoing iscussions with that federation . As I have indicated already this afternoon, we will be pursuing some of those ideas tomorrow. Burns Meats Ltd. - Brandon Preferential Employment Polley Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Industry.

Brandon's economy received another blow a short while ago when Burns Meats closed down its meat packing plant in Brandon, laying off 82 workers ; of course the rendering plant closed as well thereafter. Now the president of Burns, Mr. Larry Hardi ng, has indicated that the company may reopen its plant as a processing operation but that no p referential treatm ent would be given to the laid-off workers. Mr.

Speaker, inasmuch as the Premier has stated in this House that the Government wanted to enter into an agreement with the company for the continuation of employment in the Brandon area, will the Minister now take a stand on behalf of the laid-off workers and urge the company to give those workers first priority to be hired? •

(1350) Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr . Speaker, we have been having ongoing discussions with Burns Meats with regard to the Brandon facility . Our concern is that we get additional work for the community of Brandon, that in fact they take on something that has some long-term potential for operations in the Brandon area.

The fact that the packing house itself has been up and down and up and down over the past number of years did not give a lot of job secur ity or a lot of comfort to the workers in Brandon because of the vagaries of the market and forces that have taken place elsewhere . We are looking with Burns Meats at some long-term food processing areas. Mr. Harding has indicated to me that the people who were formerly employed in the plant would have every opportunity to apply for any new jobs that are created in that facility . Feaslblllty Study Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate what the Minister has told us and we are certainly looking for some positive results. We would like to get an assurance of priority for those laid-off workers, because I have been advised today that they are unemployed and looking for work. There are just no jobs. Mr. Speaker, given the fact that the Brandon economy is suffering-we have had nearly 200 job losses in the last year and a half; four manufacturing plants have been closed--will this Minister assure this House that this project has been given top priority by his department?

Can he also advise us now of the progress of the feasibility study that I believe his department is involved in with the company? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology): Mr. Speaker, in answer to the first part of his question , yes, we are giving it top priority within our department. We know full well the problems associated with those job losses, significant job losses in Brandon. Mr. Speaker I cannot at this point give a progress report on what is happening. We are in discussions with the company.

We anticipate that hopefully by early in the new year, if not sooner , we will have an opportunity to see some new jobs created in Brandon by Burns Meats. Industry Incentive Grants Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, my supplementary is: Will the Minister advise us whether it will be necessary for the province to provide meaningful and effective industrial incentive grants for this facility to help ensure that the plant reopens?

1670 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 1990 Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I am not sure I heard 100 percent of the question. I gather it was to the effect of, are we providing financial assistance to the plant? Whenever we deal with a company looking to create employment and jobs and economic activity in the province, we start from the premise that we should not have to provide any grants, that the taxpayers should not necessarily be obliged to support private industry in terms of what they want todo. At the same time, Mr.

Speaker, we do from time to time provide assistance in a variety of ways. If it is reasonable and if it is appropriate, we will provide the assistance. Mathematics Examinations MAST Position Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education. In the Education Estimates, the Minister talked about a partnership. Well, Mr.

Speaker, the partnership has broken down, because the Manitoba Association of School Trustees, the Manitoba Teachers' Society, the Manitoba Association of School Superintendents and all the parents and students that I have been able to contact are all opposed to the implementation of the mathematics examination on January 11, 1991. Will the Minister now withdraw that examination scheduled for the 11th of January, 1991 ? *

(1355) Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I would first of all like to thank the Member of the Liberal Party for that question , because it does give me an opportunity to put the facts on the record . Let me indicate that last June when the news release went out with regard to the Strategies for Success, it was very clear that there would be a Mathematics exam in 301, and 300 Mathematics for the 1990-91 school year.

After the election, the Government sent out-from my department, we sent out specific information on the exam indicating that this was a pilot year and that we would be as flexible as we could to make sure that no students would necessarily suffer because of the fact they did not have the information for the exam. Mr. Speaker, I have to indicate that this morning there were a couple of questions asked on the floor of the UMM convention with regard to the quality of education in this province and the standards that we have in this province for education and the standards at which the students are graduating.

I did address the issue of the examination and its importance, and it seems to me that there is an overwhelming amount of support for the exam not only from parents, but also from community members and from the UMM. MAST Cabinet Meeting Request Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second 1 Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba · Association of School Trustees has issued a press release today calling for an emergency meeting of the provincial Cabinet to reverse the decision made by the Minister of Education.

Will the Deputy Premier tell this House today if the Cabinet will meet with the Manitoba Association of School Trustees in order to make the Minister of Education understand that he is putting forward a program which does not meet the needs of the players in education? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, once again the Member of the Liberal Party is incorrect. Let me assure the Member that when we sent the information out we indicated that we would be as flexible as we possibly could to ensure fairness in the implementation of this first year of the math exam .

For that reason , we allowed every school division to make up its own mind whether the exam would be worth zero or whether it would be worth 30 percent of the final mark of that student. Those divisions have the opportunity to decide whether or not that exam will count or not. They will however have to ensure that the exam is written. Mr. Speaker, sometimes we have to take steps which will ensure that we can measure some standards within this province in the education system, which has been criticized not only by certain segments of this society , but indeed by parents, by business people and indeed by- Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, it is important that those steps be taken in partnership with those other

November 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1671 organizations and groups and parents and children interested in education. Will the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) tell the House why the Cabinet will not meet with the Manitoba Association of School Trustees so they can express to this Cabinet in its totality why they think the Minister of Education is so misguided? Mr. Derkach: Let me assure the Member of the Liberal Party that this was a Government decision. It was not a decision made by one individual of this Government. Mr.

Speaker, I must also indicate to the Member that we have been in touch with the Trustees Association, the Superintendents Association, the Manitoba Teachers' Society, and just because one group or those groups are opposed to the philosophy of a provincial exam does not mean that we should not listen to other segments of this society who, in an overwhelming way, have indicated that it is important that we start to measure the quality of education in our education system sooner than later. Fuel Pricing Federal Taxation Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Corporate Affairs.

His friends in Ottawa are once again trying to fool consumers by pretending that the current federal sales tax on gasoline is five cents per litre and the consumers will see a drop in gas prices of one cent a litre when the GST comes in. Has this Minister formally protested this false and misleading propaganda put out by his colleagues? Will he request that the federal Government recall this material? Hon. Edward Connery (Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, our department is reviewing that. Mr. Maloway: Mr.

Speaker, since the true tax is currently only 3.74 cents per litre and the GST will add over four cents per litre and likely more, in other words an actual increase in federal taxes, why has this Minister not been monitoring the situation? Mr. Connery: Mr. Speaker, one day I am criticized for monitoring, the next day they ask me to monitor. We will get back to that Member with the information. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Speaker, while the Minister is monitoring gas prices, who over there is monitoring the Minister? *

(1400) Correspondence Request Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary to the same Minister is: Will the Minister table in this House today all correspondence between his office and his friends at Shell and Exxon? Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I announced in the House that I had corresponded with the gas companies. I would be pleased to table that correspondence with the House. Urban Native Strategy Status Report Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): My question is for the Minister of Urban Affairs.

The aboriginal population of Winnipeg is young and growing. Given that many of these aboriginal families are condemned to live a life of poverty in the urban core of Winnipeg, what and where is the urban Native strategy of this Government? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, our department has been working with the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey). For instance, approximately one year ago there was a two-day conference that was held dealing with issues. I have also had meetings with the Native groups in regard to the CPR station, in regard to that proposal before the core.

The first seniors housing was announced on Robinson Street just the other day. We will be doing a couple of other seniors projects, but we are looking to receiving the information as a result of that conference that was held one year ago, and we will go over it with the two departments. Provlnclal Revltallzatlon Government Steps Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr.

Speaker, given that the federal Government has reduced funds to aboriginal organizations in Manitoba, given that the federal Government's Indian policy is in complete disarray, what steps is the Minister taking to ensure that the federal Government will be part of the next stage of the social and economic revitalization of Winnipeg?

1672 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 1990 1 Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I would like to respond to this and, first of all, say that this Government has shown some of the first actions in a long time to make sure that some of the Native people who live in some of the outlying areas of this province, like the Grand Rapids forebay area, the Moose Lake community, Easterville, have some resources in their home community so they do not necessarily have to migrate to the city for a different lifestyle.

We will continue to work on behalf of the Native communities, working with the Native leaderships we have funded, particularly the indigenous women of this province, to take their ideas and thoughts to the table with the federal Government to request support as well. Winnipeg Education Centre Government Support Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Urban Affairs, will the Minister tell the House the current position of this Government on two projects of significance to aboriginal people, the new Winnipeg Education Centre and the Abinochi kindergarten preschool. Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, first of all, if the Member is wondering about the hous ing components, the units are still there for the housing components . On the other, I would suggest that she redirect her question to the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) on the programing. Winnipeg Rivers Cleanup Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Urban Affairs also. Three months ago yesterday a library of Parliament st udy entitled "Environmental Degradation of the Assiniboine and Red Rivers" was released by Winnipeg South Centre M.P. Lloyd Axworthy.

That report proved what most of us already knew, which was that in order to salvage -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker, my friends choose to make light of this issue . It is not a partisan issue from our point of view. That report proved that Winnipeg's river system needed immediate action in order to salvage it.

These reports called again for a committed effort from all three levels of Government to get together and put aside their jurisdictional wrangles and do the right thing to clean up and save these rivers, the , greatest natural resource in this city for all of its · citizens and indeed all Manitobans. · Can thi 1s Minister give a progress report on negotiations with the federal Government in order to get them to play their

part in cleaning up Winnipeg 's rivers and indeed Manitoba's rivers, just as they have contr ibuted to cleaning up the Halifax harbour, . the St. Lawrence Seaway and the Great Lakes? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I am disappointed the Member across the way did not hear the ' announcement of this provincial Government approximately one year ago last July.

That was to support a riverbank development program to have all three levels of Government, the City of Winnipeg, i the federal Government-this Government i committed a half million dollars toward the first year of that program asking the two other levels of Government to submit to that program . I am waiting for the reply from the City of Winnipeg and from the . federal Government. We will continue to work with the other two levels ' of Government to make sure that this very, very ' important aspect of Urban Affairs, that was introduced by this particular Government, is followed through. Mr. Edwards: Mr.

Speaker , that indeed was a year ago. Three months ago we learned that Winnipeg's rivers are still being degraded every day, and the primary infringer on that is the City of Winnipeg. Can the Minister report on what action has been taken to dE1al with the City of Winnipeg who have repeatedly ignored the recommendations of the Clean Environment Commission of 1981 resulting in bacterial counts 10 and 20 times provincial guidelines and levels of nitrates, phosphates, mercury and pesticides that have robbed these rivers from the people who live in this city? Mr. Ducharme: Mr.

Speaker, I must mention to the Member across the way that I am meeting with the city myself in regard to the riverbank development program. It is unfortunate the City of Winnipeg did not reply to my request of a year ago . I felt that we showed-as a matter of fact, let us mention the gang across the way . It was not the gang that held up that particular riverbank development program .

November 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1673 Mr. Speaker, I will follow up with-<>ur funds are still available . I hope that the City of Winnipeg comes on stream and does co-operate with us on that very, very important program. I will also provide the Member with our complete summation of the riverbank program. I provided it to the critics the other day. If he would ask his Member for Crescentwood (Mr. Carr), I did provide it to him just the other day and maybe he can pass it on to his M~mber across the way. Tri-Level All-Party Task Force Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr.

Speaker, the Minister either intentionally or otherwise misses the point. Riverbanks are one thing, but this Government and this province since 1929 have had primary environmental responsibility for the quality of the water. Has this Minister explored the establishment of a tri-level, all-Party task force with his federal and civic counterparts to finally and at long last take this issue beyond the easy rhetoric of concern , which we all express, and into the realm of action for the people of this city? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, it is too bad it did not get across to the Member, but it was this Government that did introduce those types of important issues in regard to the rivers. We have to also talk about the rivers outside of Winnipeg, and I am talking about up to Selkirk level, unless Selkirk is involved in the same program . To the Member across the way, I guess we will work towards that. I do not know whether the Member wants to drink it or swim in it, but we are working at it and we will work along those lines. Manitoba lntercultural Council Report Avallablllty Ms.

Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): We all know that this Government is having problems with this multicultural policy and because of this has created situations where ethnocultural communities have been insulted. To help reassure Manitobans that there is some commitment to multiculturalism , we have recommended that they immediately implement recommendations from the lntercultural Council 's report on racism. However , although the report was made public a number of weeks ago, we understand that the public is having difficulty acquiring this report.

How can the Minister for multiculturalism explain that when members of the public are asking for a copy of the report they are being told that they cannot have the report? Hon. Bonnie Mltchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): I have not had a request for a copy of the report-the interim report I might add-that was presented to me as the Minister responsible for multicultural affairs . As indicated earlier, and as indicated by the Manitoba lntercultural Council, the final report will be forwarded to me when the total Manitoba lntercultural Council adopts the report in January.

When that final report is given to me it will be for public consumption. If they want a copy of the interim report from the Manitoba lntercultural Council I am sure that the council would provide that report if they were asked. Report Distribution Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Can.the Minister clarify the distribution of this report, which was made public at a press conference? Hon. Bonnie Mltc'1elson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): Mr. Speaker, I cannot clarify the distribution . I know that I received from the Manitoba lntercultural Council an interim copy of a report.

The Manitoba lntercultural Council, I would presume, presented that report publicly at their press conference and distributed it to the community . So it was under their initiative and it should be under their initiative. •

(1410) Report lmplementatlon Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Can the Minister tell us what will be the Manitoba lntercultural Council's role in relation to the implementation of the report that they developed? Hon. Bonnie Mltchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba lntercultural Council has presented me with an interim report . The Government of Manitoba will take a look at that report, look at the

1674 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 1990 recommendations and determine a plan of action to implement them . Mathematics Examination Implementation Mr. Dave Chomlak (Klldonan): My question is directed to the Minister of Education.

Will the Minister not admit to this House that it is not the principle of high school examinations that all of these groups, that the Manitoba Teachers' Society opposes, that MAST opposes, that the school principals oppose, that the superintendents oppose; it is not the principle, but it is the way and the process by which this process has been introduced into the system and the fact that most schools are not ready or not capable of introducing these exams in January 1991? Will he admit to the House that that is the reason that all of these groups are up in arms? Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): No, Mr. Speaker, it is very clear that the Teachers' Society , the Superintendents Association and the Trustees Association have all been opposed in principle to the exam. They have stated thus. So it is not a matter of implementation . Mr. Speaker, I have talked to the rank and file teachers who are going to be responsible for administering these exams in the classroom. Those that I have spoken to, the rank and file teachers who are going to be implementing this exam and who are teaching the Math 300 and 301 programs, have no difficulty with the exam.

I have also spoken to Grade 12 students who are going to be writing the exam, and those I have spoken to seem to have no difficulty with the concept of writing the exam. Strategies For Success Government Consultations Mr. Dave Chomlak (Klldonan): Mr. Speaker, the Minister admitted in this House in the Estimates process on November 13 that the

schedule for Strategies for Success which this program came out of is in shambles. They are behind schedule; they have not even hired a co-ordinator. Will this Minister promise this House and the province that he will consult with all of these organizations prior to going on any more politically motivated strategies? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, my only wish is the Member for Kildonan would place truthful facts on the table in this House. -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Minister of Education, to withdraw those remarks. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, I will rephrase it in stating-- Mr. Spea~:er: Order, please; order, please. The Honourable Minister to withdraw. Mr. Derkach: Let me withdraw that statement. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Minister of Education and Training. Time for Oral Questions has expired. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I may have leave to table the Supplementary Information as it relates to the Northern Affairs Estimates, which will be dealt with, I understand, Monday? Mr.

Speaker: Does the Honourable Minister have leave to revert to Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports? Agreed. Mr. Downey: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am tabling the information. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Mr. Speaker : Honourable Government House Leader, what are your intentions, sir? Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, thank you very much. After consultation with the Opposition House Leaders, Mr. Speaker, and you will ask the House, I am sure, for whether or not there is unanimous consent, it is my understanding that there is a desire to waive private Members' hour.

Second, when we move into Committees of Supply, we will consider the Estimates of the following departments. Within the Chamber we will finish off Sport, followed by the Department of Highways and Transportation. Furthermore, if there is a will for Estimates to go into this evening's sitting from eight till 12, the department that would follow Highways and Transportation would be Justice. Outside in the committee, Room 255 , the

November 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1675 Department of Family Services, those Estimates will continue their review. Mr. Speaker, I also understand there is an agreement that we would sit tonight in Supply from eight till midnight. An Honourable Member: Try seven to 11 . Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private Members' hour? Agreed? That is agreed. Is it the will of the House to sit between eight and midnight? An Honourable Member: On a matter of House business, seven to 11 . Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, if the House Leader would like to consult us, perhaps he can come back on House business. Perhaps the option of seven to 11 , subject to the approval of all House Leaders may make it more sensible- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, rather than go from eight to 12, there seems to be a willingness by all Members to sit from seven to 11 tonight. I ask if you would-- Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of House to sit between the hours of seven and 11? That is agreed? Agreed.

Is it the will of the House to have Sports finish in the Chamber, followed by Highways and Transportation, and then finish off with Justice. That is agreed? Agreed. Family Services in Room 255. Madam Chairman, take the chair, please. *

(1420) Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I apologize to the House, but I forgot to move the Supply Motion. I move now, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park (Mr. Stefanson) in the Chair for the Department of Family Services; and the Honourable Member for Seine River (Mrs.

Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Fitness and Sport, and the Department of Highways and Transportation. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-FAMILY SERVICES The Acting Chairman (Mr. Eric Stefanson): Order, please. Will the Committee on Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Family Services. When the committee last sat it had been considering Item 1.(

g) Management Services

(4) Information Systems (

a) Salaries $786,800 on page 59 of the Estimates book. Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Famlly Services): Yes, I was just going to reply to a couple of issues that were raised the last day. The Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) requested that I provide him with the name of the individual who undertook the principal role in conducting the Phase II study of the Department of Community Services: Funding Practices and Controls for External Agencies conducted by the consulting firm of the Deloitte Haskins & Sells.

I can advise the Member for Osborne that according to the Department of Finance there were three principals who undertook the study for the consulting firm. These individuals were Mr. Don Vernon, Mr. Ron Johnstone , Mr. Brian Kelly. Mr. Vernon performed his duties as a partner of the firm, and Mr. Johnstone and Mr. Kelly as senior consultants with the firm. Both Mr. Vernon and Mr. Johnstone have had extensive experience in the Manitoba Civil Service, each having served in a variety of senior positions at the Deputy Minister level. Mr.

Kelly has a background in agriculture and has considerable experience in organizational consultation. The second issue raised on November 19, the Member for Osborne requested information on social assistance rates in other provinces. As I indicated to the Member, although each province's rates are publicly available information, there is an agreement among all the provinces and with the federal Government not to release financial information received from other jurisdictions.

I am advised that this agreement exists to ensure that the information obtained by the public is totally accurate and is accompanied by appropriate explanatory notes and

definitions.

1676 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 1990 As the Member is probably aware, social assistance policies and rate structures can vary significantly between jurisdictions, so it can be a very difficult task to develop interprovincial comparisons that are both accurate and fair. I would be pleased to provide the Member for Osborne with a copy of Manitoba's social allowance brochure outlining the 1990 provincial rates. We do not have on hand similar brochures or regulations from other provinces.

The data we receive on a confidential basis is structured to illustrate rates for specific types of cases under specific assumptions. However, we could assist the Member for Osborne in contacting other provinces if he so wishes to request information for his own analysis. Thank you. Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Just in response to the items that the Minister raised. I would appreciate that assistance , and perhaps once Estimates are over we could find time to do that. Would I contact the Minister's office or the Deputy Minister 's office? How would I go about doing that? Mr.

Gllleshammer: Yes, you could contact my office. Mr. Alcock: I would just like to say, I mean, I think that it is disgraceful that the provinces do not do this. I would hope that Manitoba Is not one of those that refuses to have its information shared . If it is, I would ask the Minister to convey the message to Ottawa that it should not be, that people across the country should have access to this information. Surely the information shared among Governments is totally accurate and does not need to be laundered in order to be presented to the public who pay for it. Mr.

Gllleshammer: Yes, perhaps the Honourable Member was not listening. We do have a brochure available outlining the provincial rates for this province . The other provinces would share their information with the Honourable Member, and we have agreed to assist him with that. The confidential information that is put forward to us by other provinces, I know the Member would not want us to pass on to him information that has been presented to us in confidence, and we would be happy to assist in getting their public brochur9 for his assistance . Mr.

Alcock: We all accept and agree that personally identifying information should be confidential, and in fact is protected under The Privacy Act. What other information then having to deal with the rates is considered confidential? Mr. Gllleshammer: I think the issue is that if information is passed to our Government and our department on a confidential basis, we are not in a position where we are going to break that confidence by sharing that information with others. I think that we find that information valuable, and it is important that we have access to information of that sort.

If other jurisdictions became aware that information that was passed along to us in confidence was being generally shared we would no longer be able to avail ourselves of that information, and we simply have to respect that confidence . Mr. Alcock: I understand that, Mr. Acting Chairperso n, and I am not asking the Minister to break any confidence without the approval of the parties that supplied that information . My question though is: Presumably Manitoba is a party to this agreement, does Manitoba supply information to the federal Government and to other provinces on a confidential basis?

Does Manitoba insist that it be confidential, their information? *

(1430) Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, we share information with other jurisdictions on a confidential basis, and we expect that other provinces would treat that information the same way that we do. Mr. Alcock: Now differentiating between two types of information then , personally iden tifying information and programmatic informat ion, we all agree that anything that identifies individuals should not be shared, wha t kinds and categories of information then are presented to other provinces that are considered to be confidential? Mr.

Gllleshammer: I can tell the Member that the information that we have is public information that we would be pleased to share with him. I can tell you that information from other provinces is forwarded to us on a confidential basis and it may vary from one provinGe to another. We are not at liberty to share that. We are in a position to give you Manitoba information , and we would be pleased to do so. Mr. Alcock: Then I would like to avail myself of that opportunity . Would the Minister provide me with all the information that is shared with other provinces? Mr.

Gllleshammer: We have a brochure, a booklet, of informatk>n that we would be pleased to pass on to you. Mr. Alcock: Is that the only information that is shared with other provinces?

November 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1677 Mr. Gllleshammer: There may be information on a case specific basis, information that is used by the department, information that goes to Treasury Board that we will not share with you. We will with you the public information that the public has access to. Mr.

Alcock: The Minister said that the information that is shared with other provinces, other than personal case information presumably , he may pass some information about somebody who moves to a different province, but the programmatic information that is shared with other provinces the Minister said earlier was public information in this province. I am simply asking him to provide me with a copy of all the information which he is willing to share with other provinces. Mr.

Gllleshammer: We will provide you with the information we have on hand, and if it raises further questions with the Member we can deal with it at that time. Mr. Alcock: Well, then I would just ask the Minister if he could undertake to provide that information before the end of this week so that I have it available for when we come into the Income Security

section of the Estimates . On that, Mr. Acting Chairperson, I believe the Member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) was asking questions on the

section we are upon. Mr. Gllleshammer: We have a brochure here that we will provide for critics at this time. Mr. Alcock: I have a brochure, is that the only piece of information you share? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, we have some other information that we will make available for you. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Stefanson): Back to item (g)(4)(a). Ms. Becky Barrett (Welllngton): I have just a couple of general questions on Information Systems.

How do the four area systems, the Income Security System, the Human Resources Information System, the Commitment Accounting System, Child Day Care System, et cetera, and then Child and Family Services Information System-where do they get that information? Mr. Gllleshammer: It is information that comes forward from the department on specific clients or generated within the department for departmental use. Ms. Barrett: Can the Minister explain how confidentiality in records is maintained? Mr. Gllleshammer: You are asking about the reliability or the confidentiality of the system? Ms.

Barrett: Yes, I would imagine there is a great deal of personal information that is generated throughout this system , and I am just wondering what guarantees there are that only appropriate people have access to this information. Mr. Gllleshammer: I am not a computer expert as some purport to be, but I can tell you that there can be a lot of safeguards built into a system so that only the appropriate people can access certain information. I believe we are quite comfortable that security exists in the system that we use. Ms.

Barrett: Are there any cases where information generated from these systems is shared with agencies or groups or individuals from outside the system? Mr. Gllleshammer: The appropriate release has to be agreed to by the client before client information is released to other bodies. Ms. Barrett: Is that done on a sort of a regular basis as a person applies for one of these programs? Do they sign a release form or is it done upon a specific request, and then the individual is contacted for a release? Mr. Gllleshammer: The information is released on a case-specific basis. Ms.

Barrett: Just one-I think just one last question. How would you identify the client in the case of individuals who are under the Rehabilitation and Community Living stuff for example. I mean, there are some cases where individuals are possibly not deemed competent to be able to sign that release. Is that release then power of attorney or someone on their behalf? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, there would be someone to act in their place, often the Public Trustee. Ms. Barrett: Thank you. I have no further questions in this division . Mr. Alcock: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, I note that the Hansards are a little slow in coming out on these. I know that in the meeting we had on Tuesday there was a description given of the various systems that the department currently operates under this branch. So a couple of the questions I have may seem a bit repetitive.

1678 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 1990 I would like the names of the systems, what systems they are. More generally, before we get into that I would like to ask, is this the only division within the department that has responsibility for operating and maintaining electronically based data? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, for the most part that is correct. Mr. Alcock: Can the Minister expand on "for the most part"? Mr. Gllleshammer: In the employment services area of the department there is a mini-computer which they use for the needs that they have. Mr.

Alcock: So, with the exception of that system, is it fair to assume that the funding that is indicated in this division is the total support provided by this division for computer sei'Vices, with the exception of that one thing that may be funded separately under the other one? •

(1440) Mr. Gllleshammer: Most of the information systems are in this area, but there are processing costs within the various branches and divisions . Mr. Alcock: I wonder if the Minister could have staff-not necessarily at this moment or even for this meeting-pull together the total cost for processing in the department. If he may be able to provide that number now, fine; if not, do not feel obligated to do that for today. The question is-well, let me step back one first. Is the data processing and storage for these systems done at Manitoba Data Services? Mr.

Gllleshammer: Again the answer is that for the large systems like the social allowance system , the SAMIN system , it is stored at MDS-or what was MDS. Mr. Alcock: If my memory serves me correctly, we now mentioned a personnel system which is maintained on a mini-presumably at personnel. We have the social allowance system which is maintained at MDS and I presume runs on the mainframe there. There was a Commitment Accounting system mentioned, so I would like to know where that is up and running.

I believe there was mention of a VRDP system, although I may have the designation wrong, and I would like now to know what other systems are currently in place in the department. Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, I can give you a list of the existing production systems. The Child Day Care Subsidy Program, the Vital Statistics system , the Residential Care Licensing system, the Commitment Accounting, the Social Allowances Management Information Network, the Revenue Accountin~1 System, the Child Related Income Support Program system , the Staff Year control system and the 55 Plus system. Mr.

Alcock: I wonder, before they pass that list over, if you could indicate which ones are running at MDS, which ones utilize MDS? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, I can indicate the large systems which are at MDS. They would include the Social Allowance Management Information Network, the Revenue Accounting system, the Child Related lnc:ome Support Program system and the 55 Plus system. Mr. Alcocl<: Presumably, the rest of these are running on minis or micros in the divisions that utilize them? Mr. Gllleshammer : That is correct. Mr.

Alcocllc Has the department, or have the departmen t Information Systems people been party to the agreements that were signed with STM relative to the conversion from MDS to STM? Mr. Gllleshammer : Yes. Mr. Alcock: Part of that agreeme nt was a provision of, I believo, some $32 million in processing time over the next five years . Is the depar tment accessing Emy of that time, the $32 million that was part of the STM agreement ? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes. Mr. Alcock: So the q uestion then is: How is that reflected in the Estimates of this department ? Is that carried?

The process ing costs that are counted in the department are the cash transfers to STM, or is there some of that rebated to the Government as part of the $32 million, or what proportion of that over and above the costs, if they are not paid directly, what proportion of that $32 million is this department using? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, I know the Member wants an accurat1~ number, and we need to do some background work on that and we will bring that information back for you. Mr. Alcock: That is fine. I would appreciate receiving that infonnation, but it is not germane to today's discussion.

The Member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) spoke last week about the kinds of data that were kept by

November 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1679 the various systems. I wonder if it would be possible for the Minister to provide copies of the input forms for the various systems? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, we can provide a prototype of the form that is used. Mr. Alcock: I am not so concerned about the personnel programs, but I believe there was mention of the Child Day Care system, certainly the social allowance system, the CRISP and 55 Plus and the vital stats. Mr.

Gllleshammer: We will make every effort to get some information available on the forms that are used and provide that for you as soon as we can. Mr. Alcock: Really what I am interested in are the field lists for the various systems, but perhaps then-a concern was raised at the time of the sale of Manitoba Data Services about the maintenance of confidential information outside of the control of the Government, and I am wondering if the department is satisfied with the way those agreements are being adhered to at the current time? Mr.

Gllleshammer: Yes, I could indicate that we do not have any concerns about the manner in which the data is being handled. *

(1450) Mr. Alcock: Is any of this information from any of those systems shared with Ottawa? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, the global information, of course, is used with Ottawa specifically as it refers to Canada Assistance Plan data, and the statistics would be generated from this information to access Canada Assistance Plan. They are in a position, if they so choose, to do an audit on that information from time to time. Mr. Alcock: Would Ottawa have on-line access to that system? Mr. Gllleshammer: No. Mr.

Alcock: So that, when they are doing an audit or when they are receiving information, what they are receiving is printed reports that are based on data contained within the system? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, that is correct. I think the Member would well appreciate that provinces who are putting in information relative to their systems to claim large sums of money under the Canada Assistance Plan, of course, agree to checks and balances or audits on the information that is forwarded to the federal Government. Mr. Alcock: Absolutely.

I believe, if my memory serves me, that Ottawa contributed a significant part of the cost of developing this system. I am wondering, if in doing so, did they not outline some of the criteria upon which the system was built? They were a party to the design and as such , are similar systems in place in other provinces? Mr. Gllleshammer: The federal Government did have input into the creation of the program for social allowances. They assisted with the design of the program and while certain similarities would be common to other jurisdictions, they do not have direct access to the program. Mr.

Alcock: Now when we look at a system like the social allowance system, the information that is kept presumably identifies the client and records some sort of calculation of the amount of assistance available. Is that information used then to generate the cheques that people are paid? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, the client information in the social allowance system is used to generate cheques. Mr. Alcock: You mentioned a Child Day Care System. Is that one that is used to track subsidy payments? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes. Mr. Alcock: So presumably it is a similar sort of system.

There is some personal identifying information, some of the information that is used in the calculation of the level of subsidy, and then a report or the generation of a cheque based on whatever that produces? Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr. Acting Chairman, the social allowance system is a much more complex system . There is certain information stored there as far as the Child Day Care Subsidy Program goes, but it would be of a different magnitude. Mr. Alcock: Then perhaps I misunderstood. Is the Child Day Care Subsidy Program that you are talking about a sub set of the social allowance system, or is it a separate system?

If a separate system, then, while I realize it may not be the size or the power of the social allowance system, does it contain the information I referenced, calculation of subsidy and indicating the generation of a cheque based on that calculation? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, it is a separate system and would contain information that allows them to

1680 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 1990 generate a cheque, but again I would stress, it is not as complex as the social allowance system. Mr. Alcock: Was I correct in stating, or did I hear correctly, that there is system that has to do with Voe Rehab? Mr. Gllleshammer: That was not one of the ones that I had mentioned. It is a system that is currently being worked upon, and it is currently being set up. Mr.

Alcock: Is the intention of that system similar to the two we have already spoken about, identifying information plus some calculation of support, and ultimately generation of a check that supports that calculation? Mr. Gllleshammer: This would be a different system; it would simply be storing infoi-mation on clients. Mr. Alcock: Identifying information on the client and some information relative to the kind and level of support. Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes. Mr. Alcock: Now coming up to the Social Allowances system.

There has been a considerable amount of work done just south of the border in Minnesota, Ramsey County in particular, on a system of integrating their information and support system with automatic tellers to transfer support directly to clients. Has the department-are they aware of this? Have they done an assessment of it? Has there been any involvement with them on this issue? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, there have been some discussions, but they, I am told, are just at the very exploratory stage. Mr.

Alcock: Has the department done an examination of the impacts of such a system here in this province , or are we still just at a discussion stage? Mr. Gllleshammer: It has not been done as yet. It is just at the exploratory stage, but it is something that we will be taking into consideration. Mr. Alcock: I would certainly be interested in being kept abreast of those developments and certainly will be wanting to discuss this in the spring when we get into Estimates again.

In the design and development of systems, the Minister indicated that there was a Child and Family Services information system that was under development by the department. Mr. Gllleshammer: It would be categorized as being in its initial stages. *

(1500) Mr. Alcoc~:: That is a Child and Family Service-are there other systems currently in the initial stages in the department that are not part of the list that was read from or provided? Mr. Gllleshammer: There are some additional projects that the department is looking at.

I can read these into the record for you: income tax receipts production for all social allowances, CRISP and 55 Plus reciphmts; development of a disaster recovery system for SAMIN; continued development of a Child and Family Service information system that you had just asked about; complete the remaining phases of the child day care system; develop a client-based financial reporting system for the mental retardation programs in the Rehabilitation and Community Living division and implemented in the regional offices; implement a human resources management information system to record and report payroll, recruitment training, and classificatic>n information; initiate development of a vital stafoitics information system to facilitate decentralization of the Vital Statistics branch.

Mr. Alcock: In past times there was a-well, let us not ask in past times. Today, when you are undertaking the development of these systems, does the division deal with the ISSB of the Treasury Board in order to get approval for the various systems prior to implementation? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, we work with ISSB prior to Treasury Board. Mr. Alcock: In the past there was a policy that tended to, if not absolutely insist, certainly encourage departments to use systems that require that their development be done at Manitoba Data Services and supported by Manitoba Data Services .

Is that still the policy that the department works under in the design of new systems? This is the make it, or break it one. The answer to this question determines where the Government falls . Mr. Gllleshammer: If we use mainframe, we use MOS. Mr. Alcocl<: Does the department have the ability to go outside of MOS to another supplier? Mr. Gllleshammer: We are not aware of any exceptions within the department where we have done otherwise.

November 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1681 Mr. Alcock: I understand in the past that may be the case, but you have a fair list of systems in development and the question is: Is it still the case that you can only seek a bid from MOS? Mr. Gllleshammer: For mainframe development, yes, that is the case. Mr. Alcock: Of the systems that are in development, how many of them are systems that will be built on a mainframe? Mr.

Gllleshammer: Of the major new projects that are planned for '90 and '91, the income tax receipts production for all social allowances, CRISP and 55 Plus recipients, will be on the mainframe, and the development of a disaster recovery system for SAMIN will also be done on the mainframe. Mr. Alcock: The Minister specifically referenced '90-91 , is that because those are the only systems that will be in the development stage in 1991, or am I to presume that all the other systems that were read into the record are systems that are being built on micros or minis? Mr.

Gllleshammer: Yes, the two that I referenced just a moment ago are certainly in this year, '90-91 . The others are on mini computers and some we are not completely sure at this time. Mr. Alcock: The hardware decision has not been made yet. They are still in quite an early stage. Certainly the two that you referenced there, the income tax and the disaster recovery, are both related, if I understood correctly, to the social allowance system so that it would seem logical that they be built on the same system.

Coming back to the Child and Family Services system, which you also indicated as a system that was in the early stages , can you expand upon that a little bit? Can you tell me what you mean by, in the early stages? Mr. Gllleshammer: They are in the early stages in that they are a long way from completion. Mr. Alcock: The Minister chooses his words well. A system for implementation in the Child and Family Services system was first described and the first negotiations with the federal Government were undertaken as early, if memory serves me right, as 1984. In 1990, we describe ourselves as, in the early stages.

I wonder if the department could prepare for me, and this is not for production within today's meeting, a list of the amounts of money spent to date to get this system into the early stages? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, I think the Member is aware that the system in the Child and Family Services has expanded quite rapidly since 1984-85, and circumstances are quite different today than they were at that time. We have seen a tremendous growth in expansion so that the system required for today is different, but we will try and provide you with some information on costs.

I would also like to indicate that I think it is vital that we move ahead more quickly and have a system put in place that would assist us and assist Child and Family Service agencies as we get into the 1990s. Mr. Alcock: I agree with the Minister completely. I think it is important that we move as quickly as is feasible given the size of the task, to implement a system that will allow for proper management-of case management in particular in Child and Family-and allow us to build the kind of underlying data base that would now seem to be in place for the social allowance program.

Can the Minister give us any sense of when we might see that brought to fruition? Is it within the '91-92 fiscal year-the coming fiscal year-or is it the fiscal year after that? I mean, I realize this is a big system, and it takes a long time to get up and running. *

(1510) Mr. Gllleshammer: Well, I think any time frame, at this point, would be speculation. I can tell you that in the few weeks that I have been Minister, I see that this is something very important and that I have asked the department to keep me informed on this. I personally would like to see us move ahead quickly, because I think it is of major importance to enable us to understand what is happening in the system for tracking of clients and for other uses .

I would hope when we meet again in the spring, if we are still looking at the same departments and budgets and so forth, that we could give you a better answer at that time, but I would say that in my mind this is a priority that we can reform a portion of the system. We will be actively pursuing this project in the coming months. (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Chairman, in the Chair)

1682 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 1990 Mr. Alcock: Well, I appreciate the Minister's interest in this. I agree with him completely. It is something that should have been proceeded with. In fact, if the Minister was an historian and was to dig back in the files, I suspect he would find a recommendation that regionalization should not have been proceeded with without having such a data system in place. The fact that we are sitting here six years later without such a data system, I think is a serious problem.

That is not one that the Minister is responsible for, but if he can clean it up, it would be a significant improvement in this province. I do understand, and I am aware of considerable sums of money that have been spent over the last six years, including the purchase of fairly expensive systems for some of the agencies and a great deal of staff and research time. I would like a detail of that. I appreciate that the Minister will produce that when he can. Just a final question on the day care system . We talked about the subsidies.

Now grants are day care specific as opposed to person specific, but subsidies are paid to centres that get grants. Is there any information or does the system capture any information that relates the payment of grant to the payment of a subsidy? Mr. Gilles hammer: Yes, we are just working on that for this year. Just further to his other comments, I am a bit of an historian.

I do take interest in learning about how the system was set up some five or six years ago by the previous Government and welcome his remarks on the shortcomings of the system, because I understand that the Member was quite involved at that time. There are reforms, I think, that need to be made. Certainly a computer system is one that I see, in my limited time here, as something that would be really valuable. Mr. Alcock: Well, with an interest in history, I suspect that we could have a most interesting conversation. I just want to make a comment on the systems now.

You have huge data bases in place that must provide you with, or the potential to provide you with, an enormous amount of descriptive information on who is accessing services for what reasons, what level of support, et cetera. There have been significant concerns raised about two things. One is the ongoing relationship with STM relative to the preservation of information that is personal in nature.

Also, when we come back to our earlim discussion in the planning division of this department, there were several requests made for information that would allow the Government to provide some kind of analysis of potential impact on different cliemt groups and the cost of programs and that sort of thing. It seems to me that you have got a data base in place, at least on the social allowance side, that does provide you with some beginning ability to do exactly that.

I would hope that those two departments at least communicate enough to see that information is shared, because certainly in our earlier discussion there seemed to be little of that taking placet. I have orn:1 final question, and it is only incidentally related to this particular division, but it is. When are we going to see the '89-90 annual report for this department? Mr. Gllleshlammer: We would hope to have that available in the near future . Mr. Alcock: Is there a particular reason why it is this late this year? Mr.

Gllleshammer: There simply has been a delay in the printing, but we hope to have it available in the near future. Mr. Deput1r Chairman: Item 1.(g)

(4) Information Systems (

a) Salaries $786,800-pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $38,400-pass. Item (

h) Social Services Advisory Committee :

(1) Salaries $94,400.00 . Ms. Barrellt: It would appear that under the objectives for the Soc ial Services Advisory Committee ·there are three general areas from which appeals to th is board are generated , financia l assistance programs, licensing of day care centres, and licensing of residential care facilities . I am looking on the supplementaries on page 44.

I think I understand the appeal to the financial assistance program, that that is an individual who is appealing a particular allocation of funding, or a particular subsidy, or a particular amount of money that they think that they should be entitled to additional sums. If the Minister would correct me if I am wrong in that regard. Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, it is an avenue whereby a client can appeal decisions made by Government , and you are correct. Ms. Barrett: At what level would a client have access to the Social Services Advisory Committee?

November 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1683 What avenues would they have had to exhaust before they could make application to this board? Mr. Gllleshammer: I am told that as soon as a decision has been rendered by the department, and in consultation with the worker, if the client is not satisfied or agreeable they can immediately appeal the decision. Ms.

Barrett: So that if I were a social assistance recipient, and I were not happy with the assistance that I was receiving from my worker, would I not have to go through the director or anything like that, I could go straight from the worker to the Social Services Advisory Committee? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes. I am told that they could, after they have in essence exhausted their discussions with the worker, the no change and the client and the worker have not reached an agreement on that sum, if you like, that they can appeal to the Social Services Advisory Committee . Ms.

Barrett: Could you tell me if individuals within the social assistance system are automatically made aware of this appeal process or is it something that is information that is given to them if they ask for it? Mr. GIiies hammer: Yes, the worker does inform the client of that, and it is also in written form for them that there is an avenue of appeal, and they are certainly aware of it. •

(1520) Ms. Barrett: Could you explain how someone would go to the Social Services Advisory Committee for a day care licensing problem? What would be involved in that? Would it be the day care centre that was denied a licence? Would that be the program? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, if the day care operator is unhappy with the decision that has been rendered, they can apply to the Social Services Advisory Committee for an opportunity to appeal. Ms.

Barrett: That would be the same thing with residential care facilities if a person who wanted to be licensed were turned down, they would have the same recourse directly to the Social Services Advisory Committee? Mr. Gllleshammer: That is correct. Ms. Barrett: What form does the appeal take? Is it in written form? Is that the process that the individual would, from whatever avenue, they apply in writing to the board? Mr.

Gllleshammer: The appeal can be initiated either by making a phone call, or in written form and when they come before the Social Services Advisory Committee, I am informed that some of the appeals are of a written nature and others are made verbally. Ms. Barrett: Can you provide us with an average time of what a prompt appeal would be? How quickly do these appeals get heard? Is there legislation, or is it just as fast as possible? Mr. GIiies hammer: There are some exceptions, but basically all hearings must be held within 15 days of receipt of the notice of appeal.

The rendering of a decision is usually provided within five working days of the hearing. Ms. Barrett: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chair. Is there a further avenue of appeal after the Social Services Advisory Committee ruling? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes. I understand they can appeal to the Court of Appeal in the provincial court system. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Deputy Chairman, so in effect without incurring the financial costs associated with going through the judicial system, within the Government this is the final arbiter for those kinds of cases? Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, this is the first step that a client would take to appeal a decision. There are cases where one would take it to the court system. Ms. Barrett: I understand that in the appeal process the Advisory Committee deals in panels. Are they panels of three? Is that my understanding? Mr. Gllleshammer: That is correct. Ms. Barrett: Is it adversarial in the sense that there is the client, the person who is making the appeal, but also is there representation at the same time from the department or the division that is being appealed against? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes .

The Social Services Advisory Committee would hear information from the client and also from department staff. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Deputy Chairman, are they present at the same time, or is it one comes in and then the other comes in? Mr. Gllleshammer: I am informed that they are present at the same time.

1684 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 1990 Ms. Barrett: Finally, is it the individual against the individual worker that is present? Is it the worker, or would it be a representative from the agency? Mr. Gllleshammer: Usually it is the worker that is present. Ms. Barrett: So there is a panel of three that hears these appeals within 15 days of the appeal being launched. Can you tell me how many members are currently on the Social Services Advisory Committee? Mr. Gllleshammer: I believe there is in the neighbourhood of 15 members who currently are on that committee. Ms.

Barrett: Could you either give me now or provide me with a list of who they are and when they were appointed? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, we can provide you with that information . Ms. Barrett: Could the Minister explain if there is remuneration attached to this position and if so, in what form it takes? Mr.Gllleshammer: Individuals who serve on these panels, which are held by and large during the working day, are reimbursed for their time. The chairperson for the first meeting receives a sum of $55 and if there is a second or subsequent meeting in the same day, they receive an additional $45.00.

Members receive $40 for the first meeting and $35 for the second or subsequent meetings. Just one minute. Just some further information, the chairperson is also reimbursed $500 a month for his additional time. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Deputy Chairman, could you explain what additional duties the chair of this Advisory Committee has? Mr. Gllleshammer: Well, I can tell you that this is a structure that has been in place dating back quite a number of years, I believe into the mid-1960s . That is just a bit of history, of course.

The people who serve on the committee, I think there are some 15 or 16 in number, have to be available during the day to hear these appeals. The chairperson is responsible for the organizing of the panels so that if the panel is going to be sitting in Thompson, to find members who are available at that time, or if they are sitting in the City of Winnipeg, again organizing the location and assembling the panels, and doing the necessary administrative works so that these panels can take place within that 15 days as prescribed for the hearing. Ms.

Barrett: The per diems that are given, there is this first meeting and then a second meeting. Could you define the length of time of the first meeting of a day, and the second meeting of a day? Is that like half a day? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, I think the first meeting often reflects the first half of the day, yet I think the Member would appreciate, given the different circumstances and issues that may have to be explained and examined and looked at, that it may take two or three or four hours. Often in the interests of time and efficiency then a second or third client, a hearing can be held that day. Ms.

Barret1t: I assume that many of these panels or a proportion of these panels are held outside the City of Winnipeg. Are there transportation costs attached, reimbursement for members travel, and is there any information given as to what those costs are? Are they specific or are they just reimbursed as to whatever the cost incurred? •

(1530) Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, the panels or the hearings as the Member indicates, may be held at many locations across the province that reflect the population. I would think that probably half of the panels or pE1rhaps a little bit more are held in the city, and the others are located at various points in the province . The department, I am told, uses a van to transport , in some cases members of the panel. Ce rtainly expe nse s for panel members are reimbursed. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Deputy Chair, the Minister stated that these panels are held at various points throughout the province.

Are they held at regional centres, or are they held in the locale, the town or community that a person who is making the appeal, resides in? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, I think both. I can tell you that as I have travelled through my constituency from time to time I have met at the town hall, people who are involved from that local area in an appeal with the Social Services Advisory Committee , so I think the committee makes every attempt to accommodate the people who are involved in the appeal. Ms.

Barrett: Is there any provision in the budget for reimbursing those who are making the appeal for any travel expenses that they might incur?

November 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1685 Mr. Gllleshammer: We do not believe there is. Again I would indicate that the appeals that I am aware of are held in the locale where the clients live. Ms. Barrett: My understanding is that, to an earlier question, you responded that they were held both in regional areas and in outlying communities. Does that mean that they are definitely held in the locale where the person who is making the appeal resides so there will not be any additional travel costs for that individual? Mr.

Gllleshammer: I believe every attempt is made to make it within that municipal Government's region. If it is a town, that level of Government, it would be held within that town. You can appreciate, within a rural municipality, that in all likelihood it would be held in the location where the municipal Government exists. Ms. Barrett: Yes, I can appreciate the need many times to hold a committee hearing like this in a municipality. Particularly if there is more than one appeal being heard, it makes sense to provide it in a central location.

On the other hand, many of the people, or all of the people, I would suggest, who are making appeal under the financial assistance aspect of this program would not have a large amount of discretionary income with which to, at the very least, provide travel for themselves. I am not from the rural area, but I do think that the local Government districts are, in some cases, fairly large in size, and that public transportation is often not available. I guess my concern is that there is not a recognition of the costs for these individuals. Could there be some recognition?

There is recognition of legitimate costs incurred by the members of the Advisory Committee , and I suggest that it is just as legitimate to provide, at the very minimum, travel expenses where necessary for people to make presentation to this Advisory Committee. Mr. Gllleshammer: I hear what the Member is saying and would welcome her at any time to take a trip into rural Manitoba to have a better understanding of the wide expanse of this beautiful province, and to understand better the various jurisdictions that exist outside the City of Winnipeg.

Both in the winter and summer, this is a very beautiful province, and I am sure that you would appreciate meeting some of the fine folks that live in rural Manitoba. Having said that, I am told that every effort is made to have the hearing convenient to the person making the appeal. In fact, I am told that sometimes the appeal is made in the individual's home, so that there is an attempt to accommodate people. I would also say that there have been occasions where the person making the appeal may want to have legal counsel, and do so through Legal Aid, and assistance is provided there.

You are right, there are remote areas of the province, but the panel does do a fair amount of traveling, and will try and make the hearings as accommodating as possible in terms of location. We are not aware of any degree of complaints that have come forward on this issue. Ms. Barrett: I just would like to have it on the record that I have spent a great deal of time outside the City of Winnipeg, including a good deal of time in the Minister's own constituency, which is a very lovely part of the province both in summer and winter.

I am concerned, and I will not belabour the point, and I appreciate the fact that every effort is made and every attempt is made to see that individuals who are making appeal are not financially put into more stress than they already are by making the appeal. I would, however, like to suggest that it be put into the regulations in some manner, that wherever it is seen necessary, that financial recompense for costs incurred on the part of the person making the appeal be reimbursed. It may only be a very small amount of money.

Probably it would be only a very small amount of money in the overall budget of this committee, but for those individuals I think it will certainly have a much greater impact, and also there may be cases-and I am not suggesting there are-where people, particularly outside the city, find it difficult or choose not to go to the committee process because of some kind of difficulty. So I am just recommending that be looked at and perhaps put into the regulations or codified more than every effort and attempt would indicate. Mr.

Gllleshammer: I would say that we would be prepared to look at this issue and see if it appears to be a problem. People in the rural areas, of course, are used to helping their neighbours and providing assistance in terms of transportation. I think a lot of that happens that people do have access to transportation to their nearest community. We have a longstanding practice in the rural area to help our

1686 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 1990 neighbours. Perhaps that is why there does not appear to be a problem that has been identified. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Deputy Chair, it may be-and this is my last comment on this--the problem has not been identified because the people are self-selecting out of the process who might have trouble accessing the appeal committee. But I have made my recommendation, and I would like to ask a couple of more questions in this area.

Do you have statistics on the number of appeals in the last year or two if possible, and under I guess which of these three general areas, and what the results of those appeals have been? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, there is information we can provide you on the number of appeals. In 1989-90, there have been 655 appeals, and that encompasses quite a number of areas that this body hears. I can break that down for you. Under municipal assistance there was 244 appeals, under social allowances there were 358 appeals, day care subsidies there were 26 appeals, the licensing of day care centres there were two appeals.

The licensing of residential care facilities, there were seven, the VRDP there was one, and another group simply called other, there were four. That should bring you up to 655 appeals that were held by this particular group. *

(1540) Ms. Barrett: Could you give me a comparison for the '88-89? Is that available? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, I can. In 1988-89 there were 601 appeals : 259 of them were municipal allowance; social allowance was 286; 55 Plus, there were 22; day care subsidies, there were 28; and licensing of residential care facilities, there were six. Ms. Barrett: In 1988 and 1989, licensing of day care, VRDP and other had no appeals. There were 22 in 55 Plus in '88-89, and no appeals of 55 Plus in '89-90? Mr.

Gllleshammer: No, I had indicated to her-or perhaps I made a mistake, but anyway the figure I have here is there were thirteen 55 Plus in '89-90 and 22 in '88-89. Ms. Barrett: Has there been any effort on the part of the department or the Advisory Committee to look into the increase, particularly in the social-well , I guess, the main increase in the year over year is in the social allowance appeals, that is a fairly substantial number-if the department or the Social Services Advisory Committee has looked at reasons for those? Mr.

Glllesh:ammer: There is an increase in the caseloads that, in all probability, would reflect an increase in the number of appeals. Ms. Barrett: That is a probability. You are suggesting that it is a percentage increase, because there are m<>re cases; therefore, it would probably be the same, percentage of cases that were being appealed, even though the actual number is higher based on th13 caseload change. Mr. Gllleshammer: The arithmetic may not be exact, but it would seem that when you have an increase in the number of caseloads, probably you would be susceptible to an increase in the number of appeals. Ms.

Barrett:: Can you give us a general breakdown as to the outcome of these appeals? How many were in favour of the appellant and how many were in favour of the department? (Mrs. Linda McIntosh, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) Mr. Gllleshammer: For the year '89-90 , I had indicated thE1re were 655; 56 of them were allowed; 264 were dismissed; 265 were withdrawn; 41 did not appear. Ms. Barrett: Approximately half of the appeals that were lodged, that at least began the process, did not carry through. They either were withdrawn or they did not appear at the time that they were scheduled, is that correct? Mr.

Gllleshamme r: Madam Acting Chairperson , 264 were dismissed, 265 were withdrawn and 41 did not appear. Ms. Barrett: So it breaks down about half and half. Half never came before the Social Services Advisory Committee and the half that did, the vast majority were dismissed. Mr.Gllleshammer: It appears that there were more dismissed than were allowed . Ms. Barrett: Madam Acting Chair, is there a breakdow~I am getting back to the geography again here.

Is there a sense that some of the ones that withdrew or did not appear, there was a higher proportion that were outside the city rather than inside the city, or is that statistic not available? Mr. Glllesheimmer: We do not have that information with us today, but we will make every effort to get it for you.

November 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1687 Ms. Barrett: The reason I am asking is I am trying to get some sense of the accessibility of the Advisory Committee. My experience with the committee over the years is that it has been quite accessible. I am just checking to see if that continues to be the case or if there are some changes, as I suggested there might be, that might make it even more accessible. Mr. Gllleshammer: We will, as I indicated, try and get you that information.

We have not had any concerns brought forward that accessibility to the committee is a factor in the adjudication, or the presentation of the individual before the committee or to being absent from the committee, but we will try and get information for you. Ms. Barrett: Madam Acting Chair, if I could ask a question about the brochure, the written information on the social allowances system that is available.

What procedures are in place in various social allowance offices or where this literature is available to deal with the problems of illiteracy, of people who may not be able to read at all or understand the brochure? Mr. Gllleshammer: I am told that the workers who work for this branch are prepared to work with clients who come forward to access the program, and help them with the application and, if translation is required, we would make every effort to provide that. *

(1550) Ms. Barrett: I have one other question on the whole area of literacy. I am not at all an expert in this area, but my understanding is that part of the problem with literacy and illiteracy is that many people , particularly adults, are ashamed and embarrassed and do not want to let people know that they are unable to read. There are most likely, I would imagine, signals that people can gather to show that the individual is having a difficult time understanding or comprehending.

Is there any training or any work being done with intake workers and people, who see particularly social assistance recipients in that regard, to identify those kinds of clues? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, I am told that the workers who work with social allowance applicants do in-service training and staff training to make them aware of some of the difficulties that people may have in terms of reading and understanding the application or filling it out, and that every effort is made to make them sensitive to the needs of the applicant. Ms.

Barrett: I would like to go back to ask one more question on the Social Services Advisory Committee . For each panel there are the three members . There is the appellant and the person from the department who is being appealed against. Is there any professional or other assistance during the panels? My understanding is that these panel members are not necessarily professionals in the field. Is there some assistance provided to the panel to answer questions? Mr. Gllleshammer: Well, the panel is made up of citizens from a cross

section of the province, and there are times that the applicant may be accompanied by a legal counsel. The panel hears--it is a quasi judicial setup-the information and makes the decision . I am not aware that they require any legal

interpretation, but perhaps I can get further clarification on that. The panel, if they require assistance, can receive that assistance from the Attorney General's office. Ms. Barrett: So the panel does have access to technical, if you will, or professional information before they make their final decision, which I understand is within five days of the hearing. Mr. Gllleshammer: They have access to that assistance if it is needed. Ms. Barrett: One more question back on the social allowances brochures. I am sorry to go back and forth . These brochures, I know, come out every year. How are they distributed?

To whom are they regularly given? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, they are available at the offices that work on social assistance, and also they are made available to other offices where potential social assistance clients may come in contact. So there is a fairly broad distribution of it. Ms. Barrett: Thank you, I have no further questions in this area. Mr. Alcock: Thank you, Madam Acting Chairperson.

We are now, just to go back to an earlier point, going to run into an ongoing problem as we go through the department and move into operating departments that have caseloads, because the lack of the '89-90 Annual Report means that we are going to have to do exactly as the Member for Wellington has done, and ask for pieces of information. Now I think I got most of what the Minister had given to the Member for Wellington,

1688 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 1990 except for the number of cases withdrawn in '89-90. Can you just give me that statistic? Mr. Gllleshammer: The number of cases in '89-90 was 655, and the number withdrawn was 265. Mr. Alcock: So that between '87-88, '88-89, we had a 32 percent increase in the total number of appeals. We had a further almost 9 percent increase between '88-89 and '89-90, and yet the number allowed went down 26 percent between '87-88 and '89-90, and went down a further nearly 10 percent the following year.

The number of cases is going up; the number that the committee is supporting is going down. Can the Minister explain why there would be that obvious sort of counter-intuitive movement? Mr. Gllleshammer: I can tell you that there was an increase in the number of cases. The number allowed in '89-90 , as I have indicated, was 56. The number allowed in '88-89 was 62. Mr. Alcock: Just looking at those two years, the number of cases has gone up by 10 percent , the number allowed has gone down by 10 percent. If you look back a further year, the number allowed has gone down 26 percent.

It seems to be either people are making an increasing number of unsubstantiated complaints, or that the committee is somehow ruling more firmly or more strictly on the appeals that are being brought forward. Mr. Gllleshammer: There is not a large number of difference in the number allowed , but each case is looked upon on its individual merits by the Social Services Advisory Committee, and if you are asking me to speculate on why there is a difference, I cannot tell you. Mr. Alcock: Has there been any policy change in the operations of the committee?

Is there any operational change that would explain why, despite the fact the number of appeals that are being registered is going up significantly , at the same time the number that are being allowed is going down significantly? Mr. Gllleshammer: To my knowledge, there has been no operational changes . The number of cases did increase, and over the last two years the numbers that were allowed do not vary a great deal between 56 and 62 cases. Mr. Alcock: Let us just step back an additional year. You look at the year this Government took office, there were 455 appeals of which 84, or 18 percent, were allowed.

In this fina1I year, the numbers the Minister has just given us, thi~re were 655 appeals, of which 56 were allowed, only 8 percent. There is a significant difference, I am just asking why? Mr. Gllleshammer: I do not have the number allowed for '87-88. I can tell you that there was an increase in the actuals from '87-88, I have that figure. The manner in which the Social Services Advisory Committee operates has not changed. Mr. Alcock: The Member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) asked for a list of who was currently serving on the committee, and when they were appointed.

I would also ask if the Minister, in preparing that list, could include a brief indication of their backgroun d and experience? •

(1600) Mr. Gllleshammer: We can provide you with a list of the people who are on the committ ee a t the present time. Mr. Alcock: Just to help with the confusion over the numbers, I will lend the Minister a copy of his annual report, the most recent one tabled , so he can pick up that number they are searching for. I understand we are going to get a list of the people who are on the committee and I understand we are going to get the indications of when they were appointed, but can we get some indication of what their background i s?

What I am specifically interested in i s what s ort of experience they have relative to the field that they are overseeing. Mr. Gllleshammer : Yes, I have indicated that we will give you a list of names and when they were appointed. They are appointed as citizens at large and we may not have a great deal of additional information for you, but we can provide you what information that we have . Mr. Alcock: Among the 15, are there any categorical appointments, in the sense that are there any clients appointed? Any people who would be recipients of the program? Although that may be a direct C()nflict of interest.

Perhaps I shou ld rephrase that and say, anybody who has been a recipient of the programs and/or people who are appointed not at the discretion of the Minister or the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council, but are appointed as representatives of Manitoba anti-poverty , et cetera, et cetera?

November 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1689 Mr. Gllleshammer: They are appointed by Order-In-Council to the Social Services Advisory Committee and we do not have background here as to their activities . One of the stipulations is not that they have been someone who has been a client in the system before. Mr. Alcock: Of the 15 members, are any of them new appointments since '87-88? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes. Mr. Alcock: How many? Mr. Gllleshammer: We will have to get that information for you when we provide the list of the members, when they were appointed, and if they had served on the committee before.

We will get whatever pertinent information is available. Mr. Alcock: Can the Minister tell us, or from the staff tell us has the majority of the committee changed in the last two years? Mr. Gllleshammer: We do not have that information available, but the sense is that most of them have been appointed in the last two years. Mr. Alcock: It is my understanding, from the annual report, that these people are appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council. The question then is, is the Lieutenant -Governor-in-Council appointing them based on the recommendation of this Minister?

Or are they appointed on the general recommendation of the Cabinet and whatever process they have for vetting appointments? Mr. Gllleshammer: I can simply tell you that they were Order-in-Council appointments. Mr. Alcock: Is the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) consulted on those persons who are appointed to that committee? Mr. Gllleshammer: None of these members have been appointed in the last few weeks since I took office. They were appointed prior to my coming to this department. Mr. Alcock: Let us speak about the process.

Is there a formal process used to appoint people to this committee that involves them being appointed upon the recommendation of the Minister of Family Services? Mr .Gllleshammer: The names were submitted and have been appointed to this particular committee by Order-in-Council. We have indicated that we will try and find further information on this as to the date they were appointed for the Member, and provide that for the Member. Mr.

Alcock: I would appreciate the Minister doing that, but I understand him to be saying though, is that the persons on this committee are appointed by some process that is outside the department, that the department does not play a role in the appointment of these individuals. Mr. Gllleshammer: I am advised that the Minister is consulted prior to the appointments being made . Mr. Alcock: Upon this committee, there is no one who is drawn from that community that represents the people who are recipients of the services that this body is destined to pass judgment on. Mr.

Gllleshammer: I cannot give you a definite answer on that. They may be. They are a broad range of people from across the Province of Manitoba who are serving in this capacity as an appeal board on the Social Services Advisory Committee, and I can tell you that they do a very valuable job. As indicated, there were some 600 applications the last two years, and my understanding is this group has worked very well in hearing these appeals. Mr.

Alcock: I do not doubt the sincerity of this particular group, but we are faced with a situation where over two years the panel has been changed by the incumbent Government, and in that same period of time the number of appeals have gone up by over 200, and yet the proportion that are allowed has dropped by 50 percent. Mr. Gllleshammer: As I indicated to the previous Member, the number of people accessing the social allowance system has increased. By the same token, the number of appeals has increased. Mr. Alcock: The number of appeals has increased in that period of time by 43, almost 44 percent.

Have the number of people accessing this system increased by that percentage? Mr. Gllleshammer: We do not have the number of recipients in front of us at the moment. I can tell you it has increased. The guidelines by which the Social Services Advisory Committee operates have not changed. They are asked to consider the cases on a case by case basis, and to make those decisions. They operate in a quasi judicial form to make decisions that are brought forward by these clients, and in some cases with the assistance of legal counsel. Mr. Alcock: Okay, let us just review it for a second though.

The Minister says that the guidelines for this committee have not changed. He also makes the

1690 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 1990 point that the number of cases in the system have gone up. We note from the numbers provided that in the last two years since this Government took office, the number of appeals that are brought forward have gone up by almost 44 percent despite the fact that, in the Minister's own words, the numbers are up, and from the numbers the number of appeals are up substantially, and the fact that the guidelines have not changed, the number of appeals that are allowed have gone down substantially-dramatically.

Now the only thing that has changed is the composition of the panel. Mr. Gllleshammer: One of the factors the Member has not mentioned in his statistics is, yes, the number of clients that has come forward with appeals has increased. Also, almost a fairly similar number has withdrawn . The number of cases that are heard by this panel, the percentage that has been dismissed, has not changed very much. In 1987-88, 60 percent of the appellants were dismissed. In '88-89, 63 percent and in '89-90, 67 percent.

I am not sure where the Member is going with his questions, but we do recognize there has been an increase in the number of cases that have made application to appear. There has also been a larger number of withdrawals, people who did not appear . The number of cases dismissed is really fairly similar, ranging from 60 percent to 67 percent. Mr. Alcock: I shall not retread the path taken by the Member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), who I think made the case about providing some of the reasons why people may withdraw .

It may not be because they feel that their cases are improper, they may just not have the resources to continue , may be also part of the reason that people fail to show up. *

(1610) Stepping aside from that though, the fact remains that the percentage of cases allowed has gone down dramatically . The only thing that has changed, in the Minister's own words, is the composition of the committee. I shall not belabour this any longer. We can pass this item, but I think it is a significant indicator and one that the Minister should look into. I think it is astounding that you could have the one appeal mechanism for people in this system, the one part of the process that gives them some respite without any categorical appointments at all. (Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Chairman, in the Chair) Surely to !Joodness you can get somebody on that committee who has some understanding of what the programs are and is not simply the captive of the staff. Surely you would not want to load the committee with advocates for this system, but it might be nic:e to see some of them involved in this process. I think there is something worth investigatin11 there and I would ask, on behalf of the people who have to access this service, that the Minister undertake to do it.

I think too often these systems that get set up with citizen reps do a disservice rather than a service to the community. Mr. Gllleshammer: As I indicated earlier, when we were talkin!J about history , this group has been doing this function since 1966. They have been citizen reps, and I think have provided a valuable service for the Province of Manitoba. I really do not think the Member should condemn these citizens who come forward to participate by serving on the Social Services Advisory Committee. I would indicate again that the rate of dismissals has not increased that dramatically in the last three years.

An Honourable Member: Twenty-five percent. Mr. Gllleshammer: They changed from 60 percent to 67 percent, that the board has made a decision on to have them dismissed . We do have more people accessing the system. We have indicated that staff work with clients to assist them in filling out the application. I think that applications are generally available for people who want to access the system. Ms. Barrett: I would like to ask that, when we are given the list of the people who are currently on the Social Servi,ces Advisory Committee, if we could have where they are from, their home town, or their home area.

I do not recall if this is a term at pleasure or if the OrdE,r-in-Council states for a specific period of time. Mr. Glllesh11mmer: We will provide you with a list of the members and information that we have that is available to us. We can indicate that information where, what part of this province they come from, and any information on the terms of their appointment. Ms. Barrett: Which part of this beautiful province they come from. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Item 1.(h)

(1) Salaries $94,400-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $127,000-pass.

November 22, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1691 Item 2. Registration and Licensing Services (

a) Vital Statistics

(1) Salaries $880,800.00 . Ms. Barrett: I do not think I have very many questions in this area, but sometimes the answers lead to other questions. Is this one of the divisions that is planning to be decentralized under the Government's Decentralization Program? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, that is correct. Ms. Barrett: Can the Minister tell us if this entire division will be relocated , or a

section of it, and if so, to where? Mr. Gllleshammer: The decision on decentralization was announced last year, and I believe the plans for this division was to have it located in the Town of Dauphin . That, of course, has not taken place as yet, but is the subject of ongoing plans. They will retain a small presence here in Winnipeg after their relocation in Dauphin. Ms. Barrett: I understand that most of the relocations have not yet taken place . Is there a sense as to when this Vital Statistics department will be relocated? Mr.

Gllleshammer: Yes, you are correct that there was a small percentage of the units involved in decentralization that were going to be affected in 1990, and more of them in subsequent years. We are looking at probably 1992 for the relocation of Vital Statistics. Ms. Barrett: The department is currently putting together figures on costs, if anything , relating to relocation, and that those would be shown in the next year's budget Estimates , or at least a portion of those would be shown in next year's budget Estimates? Mr.

Gllleshammer : The information on Vital Statistics will certainly appear in next year's budget, and we will have a chance to look at them at that time. The decentralization also involves the Department of Government Services and people who are working specifically on decentralization. So just whether you can make comparisons when the next budget is tabled that reflect any significant changes in decentralization for Vital Statistics, I am not sure at this time. Ms. Barrett: No, I can understand that it is only an approximation that it will be relocated in 1992.

Am I correct in saying that the plan for the budget estimates for '91-92 will reflect any costs that are expected to be incurred from the move from Winnipeg to Dauphin of this department , at least prorated for the three months of '92 , if it is anticipated that that will take place in the first three months of '92? Mr. Gllleshammer: There may be some reflection of those numbers in the budget next year, and again I would mention that Government Services is also involved, but there could well be some changes in the budget regarding Vital Statistics that in some way relate to decentralization. •

(1620) Ms. Barrett: I would certainly expect there to be costs incurred just in the mere fact of moving people and providing changes in that regard. I do not want to discuss next year's budget, but I expect that when we do come up to next year's Estimates there will be some reflection. My understanding is this is the only division of Family Services that is going to be decentralized, or are there others? Mr. Gllleshammer: There are some others.

Before I mention them, I think when the Premier announced the decentralization initiative almost a year ago, I believe at the UMM convention in Brandon, one of the figures that was mentioned was tha t decentralization may cost up to $10 million. I believe in the budget document this year there is a line under decentralization of $1 million. I am not sure whether that has been before committee as yet, but I believe it is in the budget document. There are two other sections within this department that are moving. One is 55 Plus and it is going to Carberry, and CRISP which is going to Killarney. Ms.

Barrett: Is the time frame more or less the same for those moves as the anticipated move for Vital Statistics? Mr. Gllleshammer: The time frame is a little bit different. We are looking at September of '91 for CRISP and 55 Plus. I think when the initiative was announced where positions were going to be moved, in some cases people were in those positions and they were going to move with them. Every effort was going to be made to accommodate them vis-a-vis the school year. CRISP and 55 Plus, we hope, will be in place in those communities in rural Manitoba in September of '91. Ms.

Barrett: So that the next budget year will certainly reflect any additional costs or staffing changes for those particular programs, estimated?

1692 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 22, 1990 Mr. Gllleshammer: Well, I am sure the budget will be different, and will reflect some changes. Some of them will be reflected under decentralization. We will have an opportunity to see what changes there are within this department in terms of budget lines atthat time and see if there is any reflection on decentralization. Ms. Barrett: Can the Minister tell us at this point how many of the 32 staff years have indicated that they are planning to move, in the Vital Statistics division, and how many have indicated that they do not wish to move? Mr. Gllleshammer: I

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-1-30a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 1st hansardpdf 30a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	caffd79d9237175bf90f2b83cde49a963cb622e8

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