VOL. 4 PRELIMINARY UN,EDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00p.m. - 6:00p.m. TUESDAY, MAY 8, 1979 NO. 27

May 8, 1979 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Ottenheimer): Tape No. 1116 NM - 1 Or<ler, please: I am pleased to welcome to the galleries today a delegation from the Salvage Community Council made up of Mr. Edgar Burden, who is chairman of the council, and two councillors, Mr. David Brown, Mr. Gordon Durrell. I am sure hon. members join me in welcoming these gentlemen to the House of Assembly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to stand on a point of personal privilege. MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege. MR. NEARY: Yesterday, Mr.

Speaker, in this hon. House I raised a matter of personal privilege when the Deputy Speaker was sitting in the Chair but it was very vague at the time. I did not have the Hansard in front of me. I did not have the transcript of what the minister actually said in his speech. So it was very vague and it was ruled,of course, that I did not have a point of privilege. Then I gave notice later that when I got the transcript of the proceedings of the House that I would possibly raise a point of personal privilege today and that is what I now intend to do Sir.

I want to draw Your Honour's attention to the May 7th. edition of Hansard, tape 1095, EC - 1, and "Mr. Morgan" it says. MR. SPEAKER: What page? MR. NEARY: Tape 1095, EC - 1, page 2848. I will quote the - what is he minister of? MR. W. ROWE: Forestry. MR. NEARY: ~he Minister of Lands and Forests I think he is now, page 2848, Mr. Morgan says, "Let me ask the Z900

May 8, 1979 Tape No . 1116 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: hon. gentleman in the Opposition, one in particular, a certain ques .tion, and I will ask it in the form of a question without making an innuendo or cha~ge . Is it true that when the hon . . gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary} was see~ing the leadership of his party, aspiring to become Premie: of the Province, is it true that he promised John c. Doyle if he ever became Pre~ier and the Liberal Pa~ty became the government ~~at they would give the mill back to John c. Doyle?

Is that the ma.in reason for the .Oitterness? - 't;hat they would oppose legislation , " they would \ oppose legislation, "to sell, they would oppose gove:nment actions to do that? Is that the only reason? Mr . speaker, if it is , it 29D1

May 8, 1979 Tape 1117 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: portrays very badly on the more intelligent members of the Opposition" and so forth and so on it goes. --- .. N01~, Mr. Speaker, I take exception to that remark, not because it is a matter of opinion,because it is not a matter of opinion between two han. gentlemen, Sir, it is an attack on my honesty and my integrity and my character. MR. W. N. ROWE: And your motives. MR. NEARY: And my motives, Mr. Speaker. And I am going to quote three sections from Beauchesne that I want to refer Your Honour to shortly. MR. J. CARTER: Get on with it! Get on with it! MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, this is a very serious matter, Sir. If the han. gentleman does not like it he can go back to his savoury patch. I want to draw Your Honour's attention to Beauchesne, Volume I, I am not sure if Your Honour has the same one there that I have, but it is

Section 141. MR. W. N. RO\•IE: That is the old one. MR. NEARY: It is the old copy of Beauchesne, Mr. Speaker, 141. "The rule relating to personal reflections occuring in debate, may be stated thus,namely:that it is doubly disorderly for any member, in speaking,to digress from the ~uestion before the House and to attack any other member by means of" - what is that word again? MR. W. N. ROWE: Opprobrious. MR.

NEARY: -"opprobrious language, applied to his person and character, or to his conduct, either in general, or on some particular occasion, and tending to bring him into ridicule, contempt, or hatred, with his fellow members, or to create ill blood in the House." Well,I would submit to Your Honour that was one of the reasons why the Minister of Lands and Forestry (Mr. Morgan) raised this particular matter yesterday. It 1~as meant to bring me into ridicule and contempt, and create a little division and hatred amongst 2902

May 8, 1979 Tape 1117 PK- 2 Mr. Neary: my fellcw members of the House, making a statement , as he chought in a ve_~ clever way, by askin g a ques tLcn . And You: iionour Knows fuli weii that you c.snnot do indire<.:tiy what. you <.:cll l" IV~ do directly. You cannot do via the backdoor what you cannot do by the frontdoor, and that is commonly known in Parliamentary circles that you just cannot do these things, and although the han. gentleman may have thought the questio n was a clever ~1ay to do it , it was still unparli amentary and out of order as Your Honour knows.

And Secti on (2) of Paragraph 140, Sir, "The whole law of Parliament on this subject is admirably summed up and expressed in the following Standing Order of the lords: "To prevent misunderstanding, and for avoiding offensi ve speeches, when matters are debating, either in the House,o r at committees, it is for Your Honour' s sake thought fi t, and so ordered, that all personal, sharp, or taxing speeches be forborne; and whoever answereth another man's speech shall aoply his answer to the matt er ~lithout wrong to the person; and as nothing offensive is to be spoken, so nothing is to be ill taken," and so on. rt 29D3

May 8,1979 MR. NEARY: Tape No. 1118 AH-1 goes on and on. I will not read it all for Your Honour. I am sure Your Honour will look at the

section because I believe this particular

section applies. Another Honour is so familiar with that have been used so often in this hon. House. And I refer again to 155 in volume 11 of the old edition of Beauchesne, "Imputation of false or unavowed motives. The misrepresentation of the language of another and the accusation of misrepresentation." Both "f these apply,Mr. Speaker. "Charges of uttering a deliberate falsehood," Mr. Speaker, again applies. And, "No m~mber can b~ allowed to attribute any intention to insult others," Your Honour knows. N~ither can you question the honour OF a member of this House or can you question his motives.

You might be able to question the member's motives outside the House, there are people who do it, out in this bon. House it cannot be done. And then the other most serious part of all, Sir, that could apply,! suppose,if you wanted to stretch your imagination a little bit is that there is an implication here of bribery and corruption. And that,as Your Honour knows, is a most serious and grevious matter. So we have three sections of Beauchesne that apply to the bon. gentleman.

I am sure Your Honour will want to take this under advisement before giving a ruling but I believe, Sir, if there was ever a case, a prima facie case for a breach of a member's privilege of this House, S!r, we saw statements made yesterday that would give rise to such a case. I know, Your Honour, my hon. friend the Government House Leader will argue that it is a matter of opinion between two members. It is not, Sir.

I am sure my hon. friend will argue, and he always does, that we must maintain and protect the decorum of the House and yet my bon. friend did nothing yesterday to call upon the Chair to protect me against this outburst. MR. SPEAKER: (~r.Ottenheimer) Order, please! I cannot permit the hon. gentleman to go into debate on the matter. 29D4

~ay 8,1979 Tape No. 1118 AH-2 Well anyway, Mr . Speaker, let roe sum up b~ saying,and I know I do not have to go into any lon~ detail with ~our Honour hecaus~ Your Honour underst ands the point of privileg e that I am making,but the ouestion, what the hon. gentleman thought was a clever way of doing it, of trying to smear me and attac k my character and attack me personally and to squirt his venom and to poison the atmosphere,was to do it in ~~e form of a ques t ion. And Your Honour knows full well a~d the members of this House know full well that you cannot do that. It is unoarliamentary no matter how you do it.

And if Your Honour is prepared to agree that I have a prima facie case,rather than move a motion - and I am prepared to move the motion - but I am qui te prepared, Your Honour, to accept an apology, an withdrawal and an apology f rom the hon . gentl eman r athe r than ?Ut the P.ouse throu gh the troube of having a debate on this particular matter. The hon. gentleman was a gentleman 29C5

May 8, 1979 Tape 1119 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: in man fashion he would get up and apologize, and I am hoping that Your Honour will agree this House have been breached. MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) The hon, the Government House Leader. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I shall deal briefly with the point of privilege brought up.

I think it is well to draw to the attention of the House what exactly is a point of privilege, because the matte~ of privilege has \ been brought up in this House from tim~ to time when, in my view, it is not a point of privilege; and it is very important to distinguish between points of privilege and points of order and no points of anything, really, but particularly with respect to a point of privilege because the point of privilege is of a nature which suspends all operations in the House itself and cannot be brought up unless it comes within the framework of the definition.

Now the definition of a point of privilege is in paragraph 16, clearly set forth in Beauchesne's Fifth Edition which reads: "Parliamentary privilege is the sum of the peculiar rights enjoyed by each House collectively as a constituent part of the High Court of Parliament, and by Members of each House individually, without which they could not discharge their functions and which exceed those possessed by other bodies or individuals. Thus, privilege, though part of the law of the land, is to a certain extent an exemption from the ordinary law.

"The distinctive mark of a privilege" - and I draw this to Your Honour's attention - "is its ancillary character. The privileges of Parliament are rights which are 'absolutely necessary for the due execution of its powers'. They are enjoyed by individual Members, because the House cannot perform its functions 2906

May 8, 1979 Tape 1119 EC - 2 MR. W. MARSHALL: without unimpeded use of the services of its Members;" So in other words, Mr. Speaker, it is an action which results in members of the House not being able to carry out their functions. It goes on to say in paragra9h 17, the often quoted matter referring to the privileges that "A question of privilege ought rarely to come up in Parliament . It should be dealt vith by a motion giving the Rouse power to impose a reparation".

In the previous edition of Beauchesne, the one we had been using before and Qhicb in some respects I think is preferable to the present one because the present one reflects the changes that have occurred in the House of Commons in recent years vbich have not pertain e d in this particular Legislature - in the Fourth Edition I refer you to paragraph 106, p a ge 97: "Although either Rouse may expound the law of P a rliament, and indicate its own privileges, it is agreed that no new privilege can be created." And these privileges are set forth in the

Hay 8, 1979 Tape No. 1120 SD - 1 MR. W. MARSdALL: Fourth Edition of Beauchesne very clearly in which,I submit to Your l:ionour, you will i1.na none oi the characteristics aiie.,;.,<iiy puc io<Cil by the hon, member for LaPoile (~tr. s. Neary) to fall into any of those categories, So, first of all,there is not point of privilege. If there were any point at all,it might be a point of order, and I think we have to distinguish in the House between privileges and order. But there is no point of order either, Mr.

Speaker, because really what is alleged in this particular instance and what was read from page 2848 is nothing more than the opinion, an opinion by the han. Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. J. Morgan) as to the source of the opinions that were expounded by the member for LaPoile (Mr. S. Neary) when he was giving his speech on that particular bill. And surely there is nothing wrong with any member of this House stating in debate that another member's position he has taken is wrong because he refers to the source of that opinion and that really is all that the hon. member w~s doing.

The hon. gentleman opposite disagrees with this

interpretation of it,which is certainly his prerogative, so you do come down to a situation really of a matter of opinion as between two hon, gentlemen. Exactly what the true situation is is a matter of each one to assess. One can r~d over the speech of the hon, member for LaPoile (Mr. S. Neary) and one can draw their own conclusions as to whether or not and how much the hon. member,and for that . matter the other side of the Rouse,is or is not influenced by Mr. J.C. Doyle or any other person. So, Mr.

Speaker, I think it is patently evident, in this particular case, that there is no point of order, there is w point at all. To so rule -..ould, I think, curtail debate in this House •. I mean,all the lion. member was doing from what was quoted was really giving an expression, as I say, of opinion as to the source, It was his opinion and 29G8

May o, 1979 Tape No . ll20 so - }. MR. W. H.ARSHALL: that is , I think , perfectly permissible.

And again ia conclusion, coming back to the first point I made,I think it is ~ecessa r y fo r members ot ~he House , I would respectfully submit,to distinguish carefully between points of pr ivilege and poin t s of order because poin ts of privilege susp end t he opera tion of the rules of the House and should not be able to be u sed to be able t o gain the floor of the House without the capacity of anybody interrupti ng because a poi nt of pr ivilege is the highes t and most serious and gravest poi.at 1 no new ones can be cr eated,and certai.nly the one that the bon . gentleman has put forth before this House does not come vithin the defini t ion.

MR . SPEAKER: (Ottenhe!me

r) I will giv e my decision on this Qatt er qui te soon , I will take it under reservation and we will give tbe decision when I have reached it.

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1121 DW - 1 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER (MR. O'ITENHEIMER): Ron. minister. MR. C. POWER: In . response ~o a question from the hen. member for LaPoile (}~. Neary) yesterday concerning the aviation exhibit at Gander International Airport, the Gander aviation exhibit is owned and maintained by the historic resources division of my department. The space which it occupied at Gander International Airport was provided to us free of charge by the Ministry of Transport.

This was , of c:ourse,when there was one terminal at Gander which was used for both domestic and foreign passengers. Since they have renovated the Gander Airport, I suppose they have sort of taken our exhibit and put it in entirely into the foreign market

section or the foreign passenger

section so that now it is just about totally inaccessible to all domestic travel. There were some officials of my department in Gander on Thursday and Friday to check with the Ministry of Transport people to see e~ctly what their intentions were,whether they were going to provide alternate space or whether their intention was to leave it there primarily for the foreign visitors so to speak.

I have instructed my officials to get back to Gander today to discuss with the Ministry of Transport officials,to tell them that our opinion is that we want that exhibit, which was primarily built not so much as just an aviation exhibit but also an exhibit to the input of the people of Gander in our aviation history, that . exhibit was put there for the people primarily of Newfoundlaud and even more exclusively,! suppose,for the people in the Gander area.

We are telling the Ministry of Tr~sport people today that we want space made available in some other part of the airport that is totally accessible to domestic travel,otherwise we will be moving the exhibit to soae other location within the town of Gander. MR. NEARY: We will still have access to it. MR. C. POWER: Yes, definitely. 29i0

May 8, 1979 Tape Nq. 1121 DW - 2 MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): Han. Minister. MR. T .A. HICKl!AN: Mr. Speaker, as Minister of Education, I wish to table the answer to a question asked first by the han. the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush). I cannot find the date but the question is ·· in connection with school construction and the cost thereof. It was received by my office on April 17th 1 but I think it was a later date than in the orders. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W.N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, may I address a question to the han. the Minister of Industrial Development (Mr.

Maynard)? My question is, Sir, it refers to the agreement which has been entered into between the government and Abitibi Paper Company presently under debate. but I am not referring to the debate, }!r. Speaker, I am just referring to an element of the agreement. Is it the intention of the han. minister to table in this hon. House essential ingredients of that agreement, essential parts of that agreement which are referred to as being part of that agreement which have not yet been tabled in this han.

House,namely,the areas of the agreement referred to as LLL-1; LLL-2; and LLL-3 and which are spelled out as the financial statements of Labrador linerboard which are a formal part of the agreement, an essential part; the legal actions which may be pending against Labrador linerboard; the inventory of the equipment which is presently at Labrador linerboard which is a part of the agreement which is being taken over by Abitibi Paper Company in return for the $43,500,000 which they are paying and the contracts of Labrador linerboard? ~low these are 2911. ·.

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1122 NM - 1 MR. W. ROWE: referred to, Mr. Speaker, as essential parts of the agreement, and I am wondering if before the agreement is finally ratified by this House the minister intends to do the House the courtesy of tabling and distributing to the members of the House these essential parts of the agreement which have already been entered into. MR. SPEAKER (Gttenheimer): The hon. Minister of Industrial Development. MR. MAYNARD: We have been looking at some of the schedules, I think there are eight of them, LLL-1 to LUr8, that form a part of the agreement.

There are some of those schedules which contain, as the hon. member would realize, some fairly confidential corporate information which I am not sure whether Abitibi Price would want to be made a public document. However, if there are things that Abitibi Price would agree to being made a public document by tabling in the House of Assembly,then I would have no reservations about it. There are other things , such as the financial statement of the Labrador Linerboard for the few years that it was in operation,which I think has already been tabled in the House or is - MR. NEARY: report. We cannot get them. MR.

MAYNARD: We have not had the annual The annual report is the financial report that has been in the statement of the Public Accounts that has been tabled in this House on a number of occasions. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: No. No. Order, please! Order, please! No. It is not in the Public Accounts. 291.2

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1122 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Ottenheimer): A supplementary. MR. ~1. ROWE: A supplementary, Sir. The hon . minister is surely a\~are that Labrador Linerboard has never been under t he control or jurisdiction of the Auditor General - MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. W. ROWE : - as it is a private corporation which happens to be wholly owned by the government. It is not a Crown corporation . MR. NEARY: No. MR. W. ROWE : Mr. Speaker, it seems to be a matter which can be cleared up fairly easy . Will the minister undertake to table in this hon.

House, giving him the benefit of the doubt on so-called confidential corporate information which I cannot envisage a t t he moment - after all Abitibi Price are looking for a ra.tified agreement by this House - but assuming there is something in the schedules l to 8 which is confidential -I cannot see that applying to the financial stateme ·nts of Labrador Linerboard,or the contracts of Labrador Linerboard 1 or the equipment and assets of Labrador Linerboard whicl\ should be part of the public doma in - will the minister undertake to table in this hon. Ho use1 and it should be readily 2913

May 8, 1979 Tape 1123 PK - l Mr. W . N . Rowe: available,the information which will be contained in the schedules to the agreement which he is asking us to ratify as members of this House? Will he undertake to table this essential information in the House either today or tomorrow? MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): The han. Minister of Industrial Development. MR. MAYNARD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, whatever is possible to table of the schedules I will certainly do that.

I will undertake to go over them this afternoon ·with staff from the department, Whatever can be-if there is something that I believe should have the approval of the purchaser before it is tabled then I will try to get that as 1·1ell - but whatever is possible I will table. It is a fairly thick one.I hope the han. member does not want me to make a copy for every member of the House because it is a fairly large document. But I will undertake to table whatever is possible. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile, followed by the hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay, and the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, because the han. the Premier and the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. W. Carter) are not in their seats, Sir, I would like to direct my question to the Deputy Premier, the Acting Premier, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. N. Windsor). I would like to ask the hon. gentleman, Sir-l'le are now hearing a lot of complaints about the annual complaints about the price of lobsters in this Province, especially the price that is being paid by three Nova Scotia buyers who are purchasing lobsters in this Province- if the government have done anythi~g about stablizing the price of lobsters?

Are they going to do anything about it? Do they know anything about it? Has it been brought to their attention? Does the government have any complaints? Are they investigating it? Is anything at all being done about the price of lobsterS?we are right in the middle of the lobster season now. Is anything being done about stablizing the 291.4

May 8, 1979 Tape 1123 PK - 2 t1r. Neary: price of lobsters in this Province? MR. SPEAKER (NR. OTIENHEIMER) : The Acting Minister of Fisheries. question and I will refer it to my colleague,the Minister of Fisheries, (Mr. ',L Carter) and he wi 11 answer it tomorrow or the next day he is in the House. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, is the hon. gentleman aware that these three Nova Scotia finns that are buying lobsters in Newfoundl and are paying below union wages? Is the hon. gentleman aware of that? Or is anybody in the government aware? If so, are they doing anything about it?

MR. SPEAKER: The Acting mnister of Fisheries. MR. N. WINDSOR: The answer to that is the same, Mr. Speaker, I will take notice and refer it to my colleague. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: t~R. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, every year the Provincial Government issues licences to buyers to come into this Province to purchase lobsters. Does the minister know if this year that the companies who are buying these lobsters, the three Nova Scotia companies, 2915

May 8, 1979 Tape 1124 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: were given licences on a selective basis? Were they just given renewal of their licences for las~ year or Qlci the gQv~rnmenL L~ke d lou~ at these companies and insist that they pay a certain price per pound for lobster in this Province? Or did they just give them the licences without any restrictions? MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) The hon. minister. MR. N. WINDSOR: The answer is the same, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the original questioner.and I will then recognize the hon. gentleman from Port au Port. MR.

NEARY: ask a question, Sir. Mr. Speaker, I am not going to I give up in frustration and I wish ~put this down as not being satisfied with the minister's answer, Sir, and I wish to debate the matter on Thursday coming during the Late Show. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary from the bon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Justice (Mr. Hickman). Now I should

preamble by saying that the year before last the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. W. Carter) said that if the lobster buyers in this Province did not justify their prices that they were giving to the fishermen that he would take away their licences. We then saw the Fishermen's Union bring in an independent into the Province last June who said ·he would offer $2.00 a pound for lobster and,immediately, all firms-regardless of whether they were in union areas or not immediately, the prices jumped. What I am asking the minister is, Has there ever been any evidence of price fixing by those fish companies or has the minister's 29~6

May 8, 1979 Tape 1124 EC - 2 MR. HODDER: department ever looked into the possibility of price fixing by the fish companies in MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I think I can say with confidence that my department has not looked into the question of price fixing.

The question of pricelfixing, which is governed by the Combines Investigation Act or whatever the name of the succeeding Act is - I have forgotten the name now - but the Combines Investigation Act is an exclusively federal Act, so any time I have had complaints - not on this particular issue - I have referred them to the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and they conduct the investigation under the provisions of the Combines Investigation Act or the Act that was brought in, I think, last year to replace it and I have forgotten the title of it. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. HODDER: Surely, I must say to the minister that his department would be cognizant of the fact if they came across any evidence of this and would refer to the proper authorities, and I would ask the minister if perhaps he could look at some of those companies? Because it is the belief of the fishermen that they are being used, that the Province's lobster fishermen are being used by the big companies, and I think events over the past two years have shown that. So I ask if he would look into it. MR.

SPEAKER: I have indicated I would recognize next the bon. gentleman from Baie Verte - White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Sir, my question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing and it refers to 291'7

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1125 NM - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: the obvious agreement between the minister's department and the Government of Canada under the former Winter capital Works Proqramme ot some years ago.

In view of the fact that the minister's department has made financial arrangements with, well, publicly I am aware of three or four, communities in the Province to enable them to pay back in the interim the payments on tLose Winter Capital Works Programmes, can the minister tell me whether or not this same arrangement will now be offered to all communities in the Province who are currently experiencing financial difficulties because of the pay backs under the Winter Capital Works Programme? MR. SPEAKER (Ottenheimer) : The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DINN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman for the question. It is a very valid question. It is a~ issue; as the han. gentleman is aware, this is the Winter Capital Works Program that was initiated by the federal government from 1973 to 1975. At that time there were agreements entered into between these municipalities and the federal government whereby a portion of the funding that was made available would be forgiven and a portion of the labour cost, and the balance of course would be by way of a loan from the federal government to the municipalities.

Debentures have now been issued by the Department of Municipal Affairs on behalf of the federal government. All that we are requesting as a department is that these debentures be signed and returned to the federal government. The department then does not accept any responsibility for repayment of these. Ho#ever, because these debentures came out in October and November of 1978 there was 2918

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1125 NM - 2 MR. DINN: undue hardship on some of these municipalities in that there was no budget provision ma~e in their annual budget for that year to repay these amounts. As a result a number of municipalities were not in a position, they could not absorb these amounts. If you are talking payments in the amount of $5,000 on a $300,000 budget,perhaps you could absorb it. But in smaller municipalities where their budget may be in the order of $25,000 or $30,000 a year , obviously this amount could not be handled.

P~d in certain isolated cases where the municipality approached us and said, •we cannot pay it; will you assist us?" we did provide some special grants. But it is not a policy that we are making available to all municipalities. If we did it would cost the Province something in the order of $370,000 a year to pay back all the annual payments on all the Winter Capital Works Programmes. We are not in a position to do that, we do not have the financial resources, neither should we be paying back loans that were made by the federal government to municipalities.

It is the federal government's responsibility, not ours, and I do not think this Province should be forced to bail out the federal government on this programme which was ill conceived in the first place and ill managed by the federal government. MR. SPEAKER (Ottenheimer): A supplementary. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the minister's department dragged its heels for five years in preparing those debentures, in view of the fact that it took two years in one instance 2919

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1126 AH-1 MR. RIDEOUT: for those debentures to go from one office in the minister's department to the Department of Finance for preparation, would the minister tell the House whether it is fair that those small municipalities like Ming's Bight, Middle Arm and so on be ' forced to pay accrued interest while his department and this government dragged its heels preparing the debentures? MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) The hen. minister. MR. N: WIN:9SOR: No, Mr. Speaker, I could not agree with the hen. gentleman more. In fact, I have sent a telex to the hen.

Andre Ouelle~, the minister responsible for urban affairs, stating exactly that, that since the time period is such that the interest payments in many cases have added fifteen, twenty and twenty-five per cent to the cost, and in some cases even higher, by the way, to the initial principal of the loan, the amount that had to be repaid, that I am saying that the Federal Government should write off this amount. I have sent a telex to Mr. Ouellet and I will table that telex for your hen. gentleman's information, Sir. MR. RIDEOUT: Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Hen. member. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the hen. minister for his action in that regard, but will the minister do one final thing and that is lift the freeze that his department has put on revenue grants to small communities in this Province so that they can continue to pay their garbage collectors and so on and not be acting as a collecting agency for the Government of Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. minister. MR. N. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, we have no intention of acting as a collection agency for the Federal Government. All we are doing is withholding the revenue grants pending the signing of those debentures.

The only responsibility that we have to the federal government is to ensure that the debentures are signed 29ZO

1-!ay 8,1979 Tape No. 1126 AH-2 MR.N .mNDSOR: by the municipalities. If the municipality would sign the debenture,the revenue grant would be released immediately. And how the federal government, if and when, or ~ver get their funding back from the municipalities is their problem. We have no intention of accepting that responsibility for the federal government. ~. SPEAKER: (Mr.Ottenheimer) I have indicated I will recognize the member for the Strait of Belle Isle next. MR. ROBERTS: My friend from Terra Nova (Mr.Lush) Mr. Speaker, is anxious to get on the queue. Mr.

Speaker, a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr.Brett). I \ earlier gave him notice, and I apologize for the brevity of the time period of the notice,but I think the minister is familiar with the subject matter.

Can the minister tell us whether he is as yet in a position to tell the House when a start will be made on the construction of a new road between Main Brook and that point on the Northern Peninsula Highway between Eddies Cove East and the airstrip, it is near the Boiling Brooks area on the Northern Peninsul Highway, can he tell us when a start will be made on that road? ~EAKER: Hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. BRETT: No, Mr. Speaker, I am afraid I cannot.

There is some work included in our roads programme for the hon. member's district for this year in conjunction with the DREE programme that is going on,but I am not certain if this is included in the programme or not. I will certainly get the information for the bon. gentleman for tomorrow. !o!R. ROBERrS: "!R • S'P'E~KEP.: MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary. A supplementary. I thank the minister. By way of a question,! will give him an answer: It is not in the DREE programme.

Would the minister undertake to see if it is going to be put in the next shopping list that goes up to DREE for road work to be done on the Northern Peninsula? This road,as the minister knows, 2921.

May 8,1979 Tape No. 1126 AH-3 MR. ROBERTS: will complete the loop around the Northern Peninsula and will bring immense- advantages,not Conche and Creque and the other communities served by the road. It will bring them immensely closer to the hospital and immensely closer to the large employment opportuniti~s,relatively speaking, available at St. Anthony. Would the minister undertake to include that on the next shopping list,I think is the phrase that is being used,with which he and his colleagues approach DREE in the hope that DREE will b~ generous as they have been hith~rto? MR.

SPEAKER: (Mr.Ottenheimer) ~;rr_:__ The hen. minister. Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am happy to inform the member that I will be very happy to s~e that that is included in the next shopping list. 1-!R. ROBERTS: to see if they buy it. MR. SPEAKER: I will do what I can Hon. membe~for Stephenville, Trinity-Bay de Verte, Windsor-Buchans, Terra Nova and Bellevue, time permitting. MR. MCNeil: Mr. Speaker, my qu~stion is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. Windsor).

Now that the minister has been in his department for some time and is familiar with the area 13 development, could the minister indicate when he believes that these blocks of land will go on sale in the Stephenville area?And could the minister also indicate what the government's intention is for th~ accumulated interest that is now building up on this land that has been lying idle for several years since it has been developed? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I am concerned about area 13.

I have looked at it personally and I have discussed the implications of having this land and the interest on that with the officials in the department and the corporation. We are looking at that in overall policy position and as far as the sale of the 2922

1-'ay 8,1979 Tape No. 112 6 AH-4 MR. WINDSOR: property is concerned we are proposing to put a limited number of lots on sale almost :!.'!'T~-:!.5,-~~c;' .ond th~ l).o],Tit:" thP.n wi.ll be out on sale as the demand increases. 2923

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 112 7 DW - 1 MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: I have a few questions for the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brect). I wonder if the minister could inform the House as to whether or not there is any intention on the part of his department to move the personnel or the facilities of the highways depot out of Old Perlican to another part of Trinity Bay or Conception Bay? MR. SPEAKER: Ron. minister. MR. C. BRETT: Not to the best of my knowledge, Mr.

Speaker, but again I will try to obtain that information,but I certainly have not heard anything to that affect. MR •. F. ROWE: MR.. SPEAKER: MR. F.ROWE: A supplementary. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, could the minister undertake to provide the House or table some information or documentation assuring the House on behalf of the people of Old Perlican and area that in fact that highways depot will not be moved nor the personnel therein. Just as a matter of information to the minister, this kind of a rumour and information seems to be an annual thing and each year I have to ask the same question.

In fact,there was a case when there were plans on the part of the department to move the highways depot out of Old Perlican to some other part of Conception Bay,And I would ask the minister if he would be kind enough to assure the House that such a movement will not take place this year or any time within the foreseeable future . MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans.- MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Doody) is : no doubt he is aware we are looking at a reduction of the work force at Buchans by almost 50 per cent, 166 men : have got their notices to be laid off in July with the remaining work force only looking at goi~g into early 1980. Mr. Speaker, my 2924

May 8. 1979 Tape No. 112 7 DW - 2 MR. G. FLIGHT: question is it is a known fact that there are ore bodies in the immediate Buchans area - to name the ore bodies the Skidder ore body,Great Burnt and Tulks. And it is a known fact that if these ore bodies were to be developed it would have the affect of prolonging the life of Buchans and possibly avoid having to lay off the personnel concerned. My question, Mr.

Speaker, is this ·. haye Abitibi Price up to this point in time requested any subsidies, any financial assistance from the Province by w~y of building access roads to those ore bodies that I referred to or by way of extending hydro to those ore bodies that I have rc~arred to? Has Ab:l.tibi Price made any request of government for any kind of financial assistance that would make it possible for them to mine those ore bodies economically and thereby . . have the effect of extending the life of the .mine? MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): and Energy. The hon. Minister of Mines MR. W. DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, as the hon. member is undoubtedly aware the Buchans situation is one which the department has been very closely monitoring and been involved in. The Skidder property is a lot closer to Buchans and it is,from a transportation point of view, the most obvious extension of the :mine to start on and it would be the least difficult in terms of accessibility. The Tulks Brook area would appear to be a more lucrative one that has not only copper but some other metals as well . So the company has indicated to government that if they can demonstrate to their own satisfaction that the Tulks .

Brook property particularly is an economically viable,feasible operation, then they will be coming to government with a request for a bridge across the river because the Tulks Brook property is on the wrong side of the lake. They will need some help in building an access road from that bridge back up to Skidder and into Buchans. The original target date for that assessment was to have been late Fall of this year. Rowever,in view of the fact that the layoffs which the hon. 2925

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1127 DW - 3 MR. DOODY: member has 111entioned are imminent, we have been in touch with a company and they have agreed to try ment f~om them as co whethe~ o~ .not they are prepared to go ahead with the development by late Summe~,or at least !!dd-Summer of this year. Nov what !!dd-Sumaer is in Newfoundland of course may be a very opene d ended sort of date.We would hope that that probably mean.s sou:e time in July or August. In any event, the Deputy Minister of Xines and Energy together with other \ Z926

May 8, 1979 Tape 1128 PK - 1 Mr. Doody: officials are going to Buchans, I think it is-on the lOth. of this month, the day after tomorrow, together with senior officials of various other departments. They will meet with company officials and with officials of the Buchans Action Committee with a view to determining exactly what the requirements of the company would be and to do everything that wepossibly can to facilitate the opening of these two deposits. The third deposit, the Great Burnt deposit,will need a hydro line, and that will not be a problem.

The Upper Salmon, if it is developed, would not have a bearing on the d~posit, It is on high ground, and I have been told that it would be a separate entity and would not be involved. The access road from there would be a bigger proposition. They have not gone as far toward examining the feasibility of developing it, but it is a real possibility; all these things are possibilities with regards to Buchans and we are trying to push them ahead as quickly as we can.

I might also say that there are also right now running a drift out from the Mclean shaft working in Buchans itself with a view to trying to determine if there is an additional pocket in behind there, and that work is now ongoing so hopefully,that one can come into production if there is anything there before we even get into the skidder or into the Tulk's Brook area. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): A supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, that kind of dragged out answer is one of the reasons that Buchans is in the problem it is in today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, let me ask the minister this; since the base metal prices-copper, lead, and zinc· are probably right now the highest time it has ever been on the world markets, the highest time it has ever been AN HON. MEMBER: And gold. 2927

May 8, 1979 Tape 1128 PK - 2 MR. FLIGHT: -does not the minister believe that if Price Abitibi had any intention of mining those deposits that they could mine it now under the present pricing syst2m on the world markets? And again the ouestion, Mr.

Speaker, is whether at this point in time Price - and I want a year or no answer, if the minister would give me a yes or no answer -~1hether at this point in time that Price (Nfld.) and Abitibi have requested any financial assistance to get those ore bodies under production in time to avert the kind of a layoff or the kind of a shutdown that we are looking at in Buchans within the next year? Any tax concessions, assistance for access roads- assistance for hydro, any proposal in front of this government that the minister can table if he had to, a materialistic request from Price (Nfld.)?

I know Price (Nfld.) have been talking to government for the past three years, but have they made the kind of request that would enable that mine to continue going and to avoid the kind of layoffs that we are going to be looking at in the next couple of months? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. DOODY: Well, Mr. Speaker, that is a sort of a long- drawn-out question that makes a short concise answer very difficult.

A number of discussions have been ongoing with that company, That company, like most companies~would be most anxious to get all of the financial help from government that government is willing to give it. 1 might say that if it is necessary for financial assistance,whether it is the form of some sort of a tax turnaround or whether it is in the form of access roads or whether it is ·in the form of a bridge or hydro help, we will certainly take that into consideration.

We certainly have no intention of giving that company or any other company a blank cheque to go ahead and develop what may be a very profitable operation. That is why I have indicated earlier that the senior officials of the various departments are going to Buchans or will be in Buchans 1~ithin the next two days to 2928

May 8, 1979 Tape 1128 PK - 3 Mr. Doody: try to look at the whole question and get the answers in concise form, in a form that we can look at and examine, and give definite and concise answers to. To date we do not have that sort of request.

We have vague generalities of saying,"rf we can develop, of if we can deem the skidder or Tulk' s Brook to be economi ca 1, then waul d government do so and so?" we say, "Come in with the facts and figures and let us weigh them and make a value judgment on that basis!' We just cannot give that company or any other company a blank cheque1 much as we waul d 1 ike to, be ab 1 e to get that thing moving as quickly as we can. MR. FLIGHT: A final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): A final supplementary. MR.

FLIGHT: Would the minister indicate - this question was asked last year~as a matter of fact,to the previous Minister of Mines and Energy - would the minister indicate how long this Province, the Government of Newfoundland~is prepared to allow Price Abitibi to sit on those three ore bodies,proven,fairly high grade ore bodies­ the qualities are there that could warrant the development and the production of those ore ·bodies - how long does this government intend to let that company sit on those ore bodies and develop them when they see fit?

Or is this government prepared to take the attitude that you either mine it now in conjunction with the main Buchans operation or give it up? MR. NEARY: They are not going to tame Paul Desmarais. ~1R. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. DOODY: I doubt very much if Mr. Desmarais is very deeply involved on the Tulk's Brook operation. However,if he were I have no doubt that the thing would get a great deal of attention. He is very interested in this Province, he has shown it, he has demonstrated it through his work at the University.

I might say that the government has absolutely no intention of allowing any company to sit indefinitely on a profitable or feasible ore deposit. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! Z929

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1129 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Ottenheimer): Order, please! Order, please! MR. DOODY: What has yet to be demonstrated to us is the grade of ore, the quantity, and the profitability, all of that deposit and the working thereof. The han. member says that it is a rich deposit, that it is very profitable and that it is viable and feasible. I cannot get that kind of advice - MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: MR. DOODY: It should be developed (inaudible). Order, please!

I cannot get that advice from the geologists in the Department of Mines, who I think are, with great respect, somewhat more knowledgeable than the han. member. As soon as that advice and proof is available then government will make an appropriate decision. MR. FLIGHT: The mine is closing down. 500 men are going to be out of work in another year. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: MR. DOODY: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! It is feeding time, Sir. The han. member, my notes indicate, for Terra Nova is next on the list. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, a few days ago I questioned the Minister of Mines and Energy respecting three phase power, electrical power. MR. RIDEOUT: And he laughed at you. MR. LUSH: This three phase power, Mr. Speaker, is a heavier type of power that is required to meet the demands of larger, industrial, electrical machines, equipment, etc. Despite incisive and repetitive questioning, 2930

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1129 NM - 2 MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I could not get any satisfactory answers on that particular day. I spec~tically wanted to know, Mr. Speaker, who or what body or what agency paid for the initial cost of extending three phase power to a community for industrial purposes. And the minister in his reply told me or told the House that the costs were a matter to be ironed out between the distributor of the power and the retailer. But he did indicate that he would undertake to look into it more fully and to inform tl1e House. My question to the minister now is has the minister looked into this?

Can he inform the House today who pays for the extension of three phase electrical power to a community for industrial purposes or is the government involved in any way? Do they have any policy respecting the payment of costs for the extension of three phase power to a community or an area for industrial purposes. MR. SPEAKER (Ottenheimer): The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, we are well a\vare of the fact that three phase power is a very important part of an industrial operation.

We also realize that some of the plants, we talk particularly of fish plants in this parti~tl~r cas~, are very far away from a three phase source. It is an expensive proposition getting them in there and nevertheless they are almost vital in terms of a constant reliable source of power to the sort of motors tha~ are needed in these operations.

In light of that a Policy Committee of Cabinet, working very closely with the Department of Fisheries, who are taking the lead in this, are trying to devise a policy of assistance to fish plant operators to enable them to have access at a reasonable rate to a source of three phase power. What I am saying is that government is presently developing

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1129 NM - 3 MR. DOODY: a policy which it hopes to be able to put into effect in this regard within the imme~iate future. The reason for the lack of detail the last time the question was asked was simply because I knew about as much about the answer as the hon. member seemed to know about the question. We were really not in phase on that particular area at that particular time. But it is coming under control now and hopefully we will be in a position to distribute three phase power at ~n economical rate to the industrial consumers in the Province shortly. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR.

SPEAKER lOttenheimer): debate on Bill 15. Opposition. Order 13. The adjourned The hon. Leader of the MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I have two minutes left 1 I am informed reliably by the table. So I obviously will not go into too much detail about the bill. Suffice it to say, Sir, by way of

summary that we on this side of the House are in total favour of the principle of divesting the government of Labrador Linerboard and passing it over to a private enterprise company of good standing and good caliber. There is no doubt that the Abitibi Paper Company is a company which falls into that category. Our dispute and complaint about the government's actions, Sir, result from the fact that this government seems to think that we have to fall down and genuflect in front of Abitibi Paper Company and indeed the government itself, and to sing the praises of this agreement. In fact this agreement, Sir, while good in principle 2S32

May 8, 1979 Tape No, 1130 SD - 1 MR. W, N, ROWE: is nat in the total best interest of the Province at all, noi: because of Abitibi Paper Company's fault but because of the fact that the Government itself because of its mismanag~ent over the past five or six years since it took over that company 1 the mismanag~ent and incompetence shown and worst , the absolute blunder in clos ing down the plant when it did not have to be closed down financially or otherwise and the hardship imposed,and Government state111ents by the former Premier, the member now for Humber West, by Mr.

Crosbie, by other hon. members on that side of the House that the plant, the Linerboard mill, was not worth a dollar. The litany, the

chapter of mismanagement and idiotic statements issued and uttered by that Government concerning the Linerboard mill, Sir, rendered that mill almost valueless in the marketplace, and we are lucky now to be: able to get $43,500,000 for the mill. MR. S. NEARY: away for a dollar. MR. W. N. ROWE: Crosbie said he could not give it The fact is, Sir, that we are not getting good value in return for the mill. The mill is worth far more than that, its replacement value is ten times $43,5000,000. Its value in the marketplace is worth far more than that and if this Government, Mr.

Speaker, had not shown its incompetence, had not blundered so badly, had not smeared and maligned the mill itself by saying it was in the wrong place,there was no market for the product and so on and so forth, that it was hopelessly conceivedJ all of these things, Mr . Speaker, that mill would ;:.;ve been perceived to have been a much more viable operation and would be returning to the Province today much more money then $43,500,000, We are in favour of the principle of the bill, the principle of the agreement, We are against, Mr.

Speaker, utterly, the incompetence, mismanagement and perhaps worse,which has been shown by this Government throughout the whole piece. Thank you. ZS33

May 8, 1979 SOME HON , ME..'!BERS : MR. SPEAKER: (Ottenheimer) MR, L .WOODROW: Tape No, 1130 so - 2 Hear, hear! Hon, member for the Bay of Islands, Mr. Speaker, this does not indicate that I am going to speak at length,. it just indicates that I am glad that I can stand up straight in this House and speak. &--. HON, MEMBER: Have you got a bad back? MR.. L, WOODROW: No, not a bad back but a clean heart. And there is nothing in my character that anybody can say about me in this hon. House, I want to make that clear, SO ME HON, MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. L. WOODROW: I should start off, Mr.

Speaker, by saying that, and I say this respectfully to the Leader of the Opposition, I think we should make a novena of prayers for having this mill disposed of in such a fine manner, I also feel that, and I think the hon, Leader knows this,I am probably not so well qualified as he is or probably not as good as some of the members on this side of the House and on the other side as well to speak, but the hen. member knows that if this mill had not closed down the Province would have lost its capital credit rating, And he also knows - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, Oh! MR. L, WOODROW: Mism~agement or not.

He also knows that the markets for Linerboard mill are very poor_. they have been poor ror the last number of years and they continue to be poor in the world markets. Now, Mr. Speaker, by way of introduction I would like to say that as a member from the West Coast of the Province, member for the Bay of Islands, I feel obligated and am pleased to be able to say a few words on the bill entitled, "l\n Act 'l'O Provide For The Ratification Of The Sale Of The Stephenville Linerboard Mill And Its conversion To A Newsprint Mill." 2934

May 8, 1979 Tape No . ll30 SD - 3 ~IR. L. WOODROW: I would like ~o say, Mr. Speaker, first of all that I am disappoin ted that more input has not been put into this bill DY tne hon. members from St. George's (tofrs. H. Mcisaac) and Port au Port (Mr. J. Hodder) although I fee~ they will be speaking later on. In fact, it is only today that tw'O of them are in the House . They probably had some other business in their district , if they 2935

May 8, 1979 Tape 1131 EC - 1 MR. WOODROW: did, well that is quite legitimate. SOME HO~. M~MBEK~: un, on! MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) Order, please! Order, please! MR. WOODROW: I would like to have order, please. The hon. the member for Stephenville (Mr. McNeil) spoke on Friday and it is good to know that he is going to support the bill. And I feel all other members in the hon. House will support it.

The Opposition's preoccupation with alleged scandals and rumours of wrongdoing concerning the mill serves only to dampen the mood of enthusiasm in the area and discourage further badly needed investments in the Province. I think it is ·time we should, Mr. Speaker, bury the past, because what is done is done and cannot be undone. And if we are going to continue wrangling with each other, this hon. House will not make any progress and the people of the Province will suffer. Every government in every country, and certainly in every province of Canada, has had its failings.

And just for example, we could take a look at the Smallwood administration. I say this respectfully - I am stating facts. I would like to draw this to the attention of the hon. the me~ber for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) who was speaking last week about all the failures and the promises of the Moores administration. Just take a look at the failings of the Smallwood administration. Look at the rubber factory in Holyrood, the machinery plant out in Topsail, the glove factory in Carbonear and the shoe factory in Harbour Grace, etc.

The only two that survived during his tenure of office from 1949 to 1971 were the gypsum plant in Corner Brook and the cement plant, and they were nursed along by subsidies from the Smallwood and the Moores administration until finally they were sold to a 2936

May 8, 1979 Tape 1131 EC - 2 MR. WOODROW: reputable company, Lundrigans Limited, and are now no longer a liability but an asset to the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. And I feel sure the han. members on the opposite side of the House realize how close Lundrigans Limited were to the Smallwood administration. AN HON. MEMBER: 1972 election. MR. WOODROW: They did, too,after the Let me answer that. I heard that remark made before and I would like to say that last year Lundrigan's Limited received $37 million in contracts from the present administration . The hon. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. F.

Rowe) went at great length to outline the broken promises of the Moores administration. And I would say that the hon. Frank D. Moores, the former Premier, would be the first one to admit his failings, but I feel sure that he worked hard for his Province under very difficult circumstances and in trying and uncertain times. MR. HICKMAN: One should not run down a man when be is not here to defend himself. MR. WOODROW: He will have his own time to defend himself. Mr. Speaker, I have to stop and digress a little now. I wonder what importance really are the bon. members putting to this bill?

It is no joke that people up in the Bay St. George area, these are people who have suffered, and as far as I am concerned, it is no joke for me, Mr. Speaker, to speak on this bill. I would like to state that if in the seven years of the Moores regime he did nothing only put the Linerboard mill on an even keel, his years in office would be worthwhile. I feel that the people of Bay St. George 2937

May 8, 1979 Tape 1131 EC - 3 MR. WOODROW: and all of Newfoundland would agree with me. I would like at this time.before I continue further, to congratulate the present Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Doody). I did not even tell him I was going to congratulate him - probably that is why he stayed here, he did not know a thing about it - for the part he played in the reopening of the mill. It must have been a very sad day in his life when he had to announce the closing of the mill; however, the reopening of the Linerboard mill as a paper mill must have been one of the happiest days of his life. And I feel, Mr.

Speaker, that all hon. members will agree with me that this hon. member I just mentioned worked very hard to get this mill, as I said, on an even keel. I would like to continue on now, Mr. Speaker, on the divestiture effort and look at what happened. First of all, an advisory board was picked and on that advisory board you had some fine men. I notice my hon. friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) did not agree with all of them. MR. NEARY: I never made an 'X' on them, they were all fine men. MR. WOODROw: However, we had men such as Mr. Charles Tittemore, President 2938

--. May 8, 1979 Tape 1132 EC - 1 MR. WOODROW : Price Company Limited, Chairman of the Board; John Andrews, Executive Vice-President, MIL NEARY: Oh, boy! MR. WOODROW: L. H. Ayre, Chairman, Ayre and Sons Limited; Mr. William Bennett, President, Iron Ore Company of Canada; MR. NEARY: Oh, my,that is Desmarais' - MR. WOODROW: E. F. Hewlett, Chief Executive Officer, Hewlett Groups Limited; MR. NEARY: A quarter of the - MR. WOODROW: Roland T. Martin, Deputy Minister of Finance, Secretary of the Board; Jack Shirley, President, Bowaters (Canada) Limited; J. B. Sweeney, President, Labrador Linerboard mill. Now, Mr.

Speaker, maybe if the hon. member who is twitting me now had made these recommendations, everything would be all right. In fact, where else could one go to find better men than the names I have just mentioned? "The provincial government was faced with the probability of incurring further substantial cash drains from continuing losses of the company, the possibility of downgrading of the Province's debt rating if this cash drain was not stopped , In November, 1976, the government established an advisory board of senior executives, namely, from the pulp and paper industry." And, Mr.

Speaker, I am not going to get ruffled, in fact, I feel as much at home now, for example, as if there were nobody in the House. So no matter how much people try to ruffle me I certainly will keep my cool, I can assure you of that. Because this is a great thing we can talk about. It is a wonderful thing for the West Coast of the Province. 2939

May 8, 1979 Tape 1132 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Who said that about the credit rating? MR. WOODROW: It was said by the advisory board. "The object of the advisory board was to assess and evaluate the company's situation as to market, product line, wood requirement, recommending a long­ term strategy for the company in the light of results of these analyses." "In April, 1977, in its preliminary report, the advisory board concluded that continued operation of the mill at that time would result in further substantial losses." So, Mr. Speaker, what are we going to take?

Are we going to listen to the advisory board or listen to speculative things said by people who really, I would say, were not in a position to know what they were talking about? And in fact, it makes me wonder, Mr. Speaker, sometimes when I think of the wrangling going on in this bon. House, one saying something, another saying something else, how the people of this Province must be muddled. In fact, this is borne out, certainly, on our Open Lines. They do not know what is going on. I think it is our place in this hon. House to help the ordinary Newfoundlander. That is what we are here for.

And as long as we pay attention to ourselves, I think, we are only hindering the work of helping people throughout the Province. "Consequently, the board recommended the orderly shut-down and mothballing of the mill to give the Province time to study all possible conversion and divestiture prospects while minimizing the cash drain." Imagine if it had kept on going! Where would this Province be today? "In July, 1977, the board reaffirmed its recommendatio~and fu~ther recommended that should market conditions warrant production of any product 2940

May 8, 1979 Tape 1132 EC - 3 MR. WOODROW: line, the Province should not attempt to operate the mill without participation 2941

May 8,1979 Tape No. 1133 AH-1 MR. WOODROW: by an established pulp and paper organization. The government accepted the Advisory Board's report and production at the mill was terminated August 26,1977. I know what this meant for the people in the Bay St. George area, In fact, in talking with many of them they were naturally disappointed. I have talked with people in Stephenville and they were disappointed almost to the point of no return. , but I think they realized why the mill was closed down.

I believe most hon. members will agree that it was the only alternative, the only thing that government could do to help the people and eventually get the mill sold to private enterprise. A custodial work force of approximately one hundred people was retained to put into effect carefully planned mothballing procedures• Mothballing was completed in April 1978 at a total cost at that date of approximately $1 million. A custodial work force of fifty people have continued to be employed at the site. To show, Mr. Spaaker, how the advisory Board worked let me continue. A list of potential buyers was developed.

And what I am sayi~g, Mr. Speaker, is fact. ''The Chief Executive Officers were identified and the best methods of introduction established. An investigation was also initiated into the tax considerations involved in the sale of the Labrador Linerboard Mill Limited and resulting tax benefits which would accrue to the Province. In the first instance the divestiture efforts concentrated on the sale of the mill for linerboard production." You can see that they still tried to keep it operating as a linerboard mill. "Thirty-nine international linerboard producers were identified"- thirty-nine, Mr.

Speaker-" as well as a major container manufacturer who might be interested in vertical integration. By November 1977 sixteen presentations had been laid before twenty­ four representatives of prospective purchasers, government and industry groups in Finland, France, England, l?anama and the United States. In addition 1'- MR. NEARY: What? 2942

·. May 8 , 1979 Tape No. 1133 AH-2 Mr. WOODROW: - it brings the bon. member to life. ''In addition six United States org!inizations had received the memorandum but declined the offer of a personal presentation. In addition, Mr. Speaker, through concentrating its efforts on the reactivation of the mill for the production of linerhoard the divestiture committee also assessed alternate products. Using a COIIIput.er-based simulation model, alternative product opportunities were a~;sessed ::~nd analyses showed that based upon reasonable selling price expectations newsprint offered the most attractive returns.

Newsprint offered the most attractive returns on investment and called for the lowest wood requirement . ,'' You recall, Mr. Speaker, that it was, I think, impossible to get the wood fr0111 the Island portion of the Province and it had to be taken frozn Labrador which cost, something 2943

May 8, 1979 Tape 1134 PK - Mr. Woodrow: around $105 a cord in comparison to - at the Bowater mill they tell me they ca~ oet wood for "' lnw "' $40 rle~e~di~~ af ~a~~~e . on how far they have to go to get it. MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) Labrador Linerboard (ina udible) or Price Abitibi are not going for that l inerboard (inaudi ble ) e ith er. MR. WOODROW: say that. Well thank God they changed their minds, let us "A one machine mill waul d require about 150,000 cords annually ''- now this is good for the han. member for Windsor­ Buchans (Mr.

Flight) - 'a one machine mill would require about 150,000 cords annually compared to 335 cords for the Linerboard production­ that kind of helps to answer the question of why we had to go to Labrador to get the mill - "and 450,000 cords for bleach craft pulp." Now, "by early 1978 twenty-one further presentations and meetings had been held with prospective purchasers and government officials, and some interest was beginning to develop for conversion to bleach craft and newsprint :· This brings out, Mr. Speaker, how hard the advisory board worked.

I feel if the Liberal Party had been in power at this particular time that perhaps they would have gone through the same channels. MR. NEARY: No way. MR. WOODROW: I am speaking , in fact, unbiased, I am speaking, I hope,as a true Newfoundlander and as one, first of all, whose heart is certainly with the West Coast of the Province, but with all of the Province in general. MR. NEARY: Are you a Newfoundlander? MR. WOODROW: That is where I was born yes. Bell Island by the way, which you did not know. MR. NEARY: I thought you came over from the other side . MR.

WOODROW: "It had al so been esta bli shed t hat substantial tax benefits would probably be available to a purchaser with profitable paper interests in Canada. A decision was therefore made to concentrate the divestiture effort on profitable Canadian owned newsprint and craft pulp producers~-they wanted to keep from the United States and keep from 2944

May 8, 1979 Tape 1134 Mr. Woodrow: foreign countries altogether - "As well as United States parents of profitable Canadian subsidaries in these fields. Mr. Speaker ,"A 1 i st of thirty-seven such organizations was prepared and a new series of presentations and PK - 2 discussions initiated.

The presentations led to decisions by the following organizations to evaluate fully their initial interest in the Stephenville opportunity. '' Now these are the companies involved again, Abitibi Paper Company Limited, Bowater Incorporated, Canadian Cellulose Company, Consolidated Bathrust Limited, Helvenus Pulp, A.G. whatever that means, Kruger PJlp and Paper, Parsons and Whitmore, MacMillan Bloedel , a well-known company. ''Each evaluation team from the interested companies was assisted by members of the divestiture committee in arranging the appropriate involvement of various provincial and federal departments and agencies.

The committee applied for and obtained an important advance ruling on taxation from the Ministry of National Revenue which provi,ded a positive general background for a specific advance ruling request by each of these interested companies. In October 1978,both Consolidated Bathrust Limited and Abitibi Paper Company Limited presented to the Divestiture Committee substantial proposals for the acquisition of all outstanding shares of Labrador Linerboard Limited and the conversion of its mill to the production of newsprint.

Both proposals were thoroughly analyzed by the Committee prior to submission to Cabinet for a final decision on the purchaser. '' ZS45

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1135 NM - 1 MR. WOODROW: You can see, Mr. Speaker, that it took a lot of time and effort. I recall in this House a couple of years ago I heard the hon. Joseph R. Smallwood say that it took him eleven years to get the paper mill going in Corner Brook. So in order to get it on a good foundation, or on an even keel as I said, this thing cannot be rushed into. So I firmly believe, I am convinced that the government of the day did their utmost, did ' all they could, to put this mill\where it is today. MR. NEARY: Closed it- MR.

WOODROW: Well here again the hon. member is saying, "Closed it down." Well okay, fine. But it had to close down in order to re-open. Remember the seed must die in order to give life. And I say perhaps there was something went on, wrongdoings and the like, but all of these things have to be proven. "On November 16, 19781 - this must be a great day for the present Minister of Mines and Energy and the government in general of the Province. ''on November 16, 1978 the Minister of Industrial Development," of course,who is the present Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Doodyh "and Abitibi Paper Company Limited, entered into an agreement whereby the Province agreed to sell to Abitibi all the outstanding, no par value common shares, 5,000 shares of Labrador Linerboard Limited for a total price of $43,500. Now imagine about a year before that date the mill could have been sold maybe for $1. But the government of the day, they stood out and they got>I supposelwhat they could. Now for the Province the signing of this agreement was the culmination of many months 2946

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1135 MR. WOODROW: of negotiations with various private interests in an attempt to divest itself of the Linerboard mill and to have the facility reactivated as a viable entity. "Under the terms NM - 2 and conditions of the agreement the Province agreed - just to mention a couple of the things they agreed on first of all - to reimburse Abitibi for the minimum monthly payment under the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro agreement for the supply of power.

If during the period up to December 31st., 1998 Abitibi is forced to suspend operation due to a lack of wood as a result of a forest fire or a budworm epidemic to provide Abitibi with a supply of wood for the newsprint mill fQr a period of twenty years commencing January 1st., 1980.

To provide Abitibi with a supply of water up to 6,000 gallons per day at the rate of seven cents per 1, 000 gallons .• " By the way) this is supplied by the Water Services of the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing. ''To convert the Liner board mill facility into a newsprint mill with a design capacity of 150,000 tons per annum.

To have a second newsprint machine under substantial construction by the end of 1987, provided a sufficient supply of wood can be made available.'' And we hope by that time there will be lots of wood available. ''To give full opportunity and preferential treatment to Newfoundland contractors and Newfoundland manufactured goods." I must say I am very pleased with that.

Because I feel that, and not being biased at all to other provinces, I do feel that where possible contracts should go to Newfoundland contractors and not to people on the Mainland. ''To give full opportunity and preferential treatment to Newfoundland contractors and Newfoundland manufactured goods and services 2947

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1136 DW - 1 MR. L.

WOODROW: when calling tenders for the supply of such contracts and goods and services required in the conversion process provided always that the local contractors and goods are competitive in price, quality and delivery.' ' Now this one here ; To-· pay the Province the sum of $43,500,000 as the full and final purchase price for the outstanding shares of Labrador linerboard mill limited payable as follows: $6 million on December 21~t., 1978; $10 million noninterest bearing note maturing December 31st., 1979; $27,500,000 noninterest bearing note maturing December 31st., 1979.

This note may be paid off at the option of Abitibi for providing the Province with preferred shares of Abitibi having an aggregate per value of $27,500 ,000. " So, Mr. Speaker, I do feel that every­ thing possible was done to put this mill on an even keel and , as I said,I feel sure that what I have quoted are facts. Now if there are any wrongdoings , well fine , I hope that those who have done wrong will be brought to justice. But the alleged wrong­ doings are not wrongdoings until the person is proven guilty. I feel sure then and I want to join with the member for Stephen­ ville (Mr. McNeil), the member for St.

George's (Mrs. Ucisaac) and the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) I feel sure that they must be extremely happy and they will be extremely happier as the mill unfolds itself.And I know as members of the Opposition­ if I were in Opposition myself naturally I would have to try to find loopholes. Probably when other hon. members begin to speak they will probably find some loopholes and that is their work. But I do feel a good ,job has been done in getting this mill on an even keel. 2948 ··.

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1136 DW - 2 MR. L. WOODROW: Now I thought the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) would be here to listen co what I have to say now. But I ~· rant to say before closing a word about John Crosbie who played a major

part in settling down the mill. I knew the late Percy Crosbie. He was a man who was not afraid to take chances, he was a loyal Newfoundlander and he certainly played a major

part in the economic life of the Province. MR. S. NEARY: Is that Joey Smallwood? MR. L. WOODROW: No, this is the late Percy Crosbie. I knew him well. I could go in his office on Water Street anytime. He was a man down to earth and as I said he was a man who was not afraid to take chances. MR. S. NEARY: MR.. L • WOODROW: MR. S, NEARY: MR. L. WOODROW: He always had a dollar in his pocket. More than one dollar I would say, Sir. The hon. gentleman should know. His son John - well any contributions he made to me they went to the various parishes I worked in and I am very happy to say that. HR. S. NEARY: MR. L.

WOODROW: MR. S. NEARY: MR. L, WOODROW: MR. S. NEARY: MR. L , WOODROW: Crosbie. MR. S, NEARY: MR.. I;. WOODROW: the way, Ches is. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. S, NEARY: John was Absolutely, he is yes. John was not his son. I think so. He is Ches' son. I am sorry, I meant Ches, I meant Ches You should get them straigh~ now. Well, he is straightened out already by Oh, oh~ Ches always had a dollar in his pocket too. 2949

May 8, 1979 Tape No . t136 ow - 3 MR., L. WOODROW: Mr. S~teaker, I do not think the hon. 1!1elllber will agree with what I am going to say now but I have to say it in arty case. There is no reflection on him, no reflection hard worker and I think a loyal Newfoundlander.In fact _,recently he was quoted frolll Ottawa as bein.g one of the ablest debaters in the Rouse of COl!IDIOnS and,in fact~he certainly showed this here in the House as wel.l. And, in fact,., he has been - a lot of things have been said over the past f~ days about hilll and the like, but when I see Mr.

Crosbie,we wlll say pr~en guilty by s~ judge, then perhaps I will be talking with the hon. member for LaPolle (Mr. Neary). But he has not yet been proven guilty of any of things that he has been accused of. MR. S. NEARY: 'LUke' is qettinq tired. MR. L. WOODROW: And this is what I am going to say. I think because of the 29~0

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1137 GH-1 MR. WOODROW: fact that he work so hard to g et this mill on the go ,. in f act he had a l ot t o d o with it, I -chink -che mill Mill. Now I hope that will be c onsidered by the - MR. MCNEIL: The hon. member cannot be seri o us. MR. NEARY: The John Crosbie blunder ed . MR. WOODROW: Well, it could be, you know. AN HON. MEMBER: The people o f Lochmond - MR. WOODROW: Do not forget, you know, that there was a place in my district called Charlie's Bluff. It referred to the hon. Charles Ballam.

In fact, he always told them he would not put a road to Lark Harbour because of the bluff but he finally got it there and if you talk to him now, he will joke about this. Now, Mr. Speaker, it really has been a great pleasure for me to have these few words and I have tried to state facts and I am very happy, you know, to know, and as I said, that I can stand in the House_. I can stand up straight and speak.

I think that all han. members should feel the very same way and I hope they do because after all what we are doing - we are working for the Province, for the poor people in the Lapoile district, in the Bay of Islands district and Bay de Verde-Trinity district and any district of the Province. That is all I am here for and if we are here for anything else, in fact, when the next election is called, I think, we will be given our due reward by the people who sent us here.

I think all members of the House will agree that this is a very solid and satisfactory arrange- ment, since as early as last year the Linerboard mill would have been bought for as little as one dollar. With the Abitibi takeover, residents on our West Coast can look forward to a successful, permanent industry that will provide a 295~

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1137 GH-2 MR. WOODROW: bright and secure economic future f or the area. All Newfoundlanders, I feel, Mr. Speaker, are jusLly I:Jl'='d.:;t:!<:l Government handled the Labrador Linerboard mill issue and the recent developments regarding the Abitibi proposal. The future will demonstrate that our decision was indeed a sound and realistic one in the long-term interests of our West Coast,and I am certainly happy and I hope that the Labrador Linerboard mill will do a whole lot, not only for the Bay St. George area and for the Bay of Islands area 1 but for the whole Province as well. - Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. MRS. MCISAAC: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: ( Ottenhe:imer) The hen. member nxrn St. George's MRS. MCISAAC: I will try to stand straight. MR. F. ROWE: Straighten up there now, 'Hazel'. MRS. MCISAAC: I will straighten up now, Mr. Speaker, and say my few words. Stand straight and tall. I am not sure that I could follow the member from Bay of Islands in what he was trying to say. I - MR. WOODROW: Not sure of what? MRS. MCISAAC: I am not sure that I followed the member from Bay of Islands in wha~ · he was trying to say. MR. WOODROW: (Inaudible) MRS.

MCISAAC: I am following you now but I am not quite sure that I followed what you were trying to say. First you took a slice off of me because I had not had enough input into it and up until this moment I did not have my opportunity to rise in the House and say anything. And then right on the heels you sympathized with me or wanted to share my joy in having the mill reopen. Now, you know, 2952

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1137 GH-3 MRS. MCISAAC: we cannot have it all ways. Either I am happy about it or I am not and you are either going to not agree that it should be called the John Crosbie Paper Mill. I think the member said that John Crosbie should be congratulated for the part that he played in settling down the mill. I have to go along with that. He set it back anyway if he did not settle it down. He closed it down, and - MR. NEARY: That is right. AN HON. MEMBER: If he had not (inaudible). MRS. MCISAAC: Yes, that is fine.

We took a bit over here too, but in the meantime I am happy that the mill is reopening and I certainly hope that it will be a success. I was disappointed that it closed. I said that in my speech when we debated the shutdown of the Linerboard mill, and if I am not badly mistaken the member from Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) took the same stand. I believe that the member took a swipe at the government for closing down the mill. I do not agree that it was the only thing that could have been done at the time. I think that the mill could have been left open. How much did it cost to close the mill? We do not know.

We do not know what it cost to close the mill down. Z953

May 8, 1979 Tape 1138 EC - l MRS. MciSAAC: With severance pay and everything else that went along with it, and mothballing, it probably would have been much cheaper to keep the mill open than it was to close it down. I have not seen any figure& that I can argue one way or the other on that, hut I know one thing, that it certainly did hurt the people of Bay St.George. The people of Bay St. George had to pack up, sell their homes, sell their cars, most of them, campers anything that they had, and get moving and find a job anywhere and everywhere that they could find it. Half of them were in - MR.

WOODROW: Do they understand now? MRS. MciSAAC: No, they do not understand now. They feel the same way now that they felt when the mill closed, that there was no need for the mill to close down. It was closed for the sake of reopening. And the people in Bay St. George were set back and they were hurt financially to a point that, well, they will never recuperate from it. Sure, they can pick up now and go on, but they will never get back what they lost. Most of them sold their homes out there for little or nothing.

And if you can look and say the mill had to be closed because it was costing the government so many million dollars a year, what is a few million dollars a year when you are talking about the livelihood of hundreds and thousands of people who had to sell everything that they owned and move on? MR WOODROW: credit rating MR. NEARY: MR. F. ROWE: year - MR. NEARY: MR. F. ROWE: of the credit rating. Who told you that? Sure, he denied that for the whole The government denied that, sure. - that they closed down because Now he is saying they closed down because of the credit rating. Z954

May 8, 1979 Tape 1138 EC - 2 MRS. MciSAAC: Sure, they closed it down because of the credit rating. MR. F. ROWE: But they denied that. MRS. MciSAAC: But that was denied, yes. MR. WOODROW: I think it would bankrupt the Province. MRS. MciSAAC: The Province was bankrupt, that is why they closed it -yes, fine, okay - and that does not mean that the mill was not a viable operation then, does it? MR. WOODROW: I said that in MRS. MciSAAC: The mill was a viable operation - the mill could have been. Mr.

Sweeney came in there, he turned it around, he saved millions of dollars whil~ he was there; he asked for a chance to keep the mill going and he said that it could be a viable operation. There was no reason in the world for the people of Bay St. George to have to leave their homes, sell their homes, sell everything that they had worked for for years and move on. They could have remained in Stephenville. The mill could have been a viable operation and probably Bay St. George might have been better off today, and I believe it would have been if that mill had never been sold. MR. NEARY: MR. WOODROW: MR. NEARY: MRS.

MciSAAC: otherwise. MR. NEARY: MRS. MciSAAC: Right on! Produce the facts You are right on there, "Hazel" The facts have not been produced Right. And it was nothing but the waste, the scandal or alleged scandal, the mismanagement, government interference and everything else that went on out there that caused that mill to be closed down. And the member gets up and praises the Moores administration and criticizes the 2955

May 8, 1979 Tape 1138 EC - 3 MRS. MciSAAC: Smallwood administration. That is water under the bridge now - it is gone. The mill is gone. The people of Bay St. George have suffered and they have been set back to a point where they will never get back what they lost.No matter how hard they work from now on, they have lost what they worked for. They had to give up their homes, and it is on~y the people who lose their homes and lose their cars and lose everything that they have worked for for years who really feel the effect of it. It is okay, we can stand here and talk about it - we have not lost anything.

I was not affected by the mill, but I know people in my area who were affected by the mill through the woods operation and through direct employment with the mill. And it is fine for our members to say that the mill had to be closed down - you cannot put dollars and cents on the livelihood of people, on people who have built up homes and their personal belongings over the years; and you cannot just say, 'We will close down the mill. We will take the jobs from them and close it down. Too bad, let them go where they like.' They are scattered all over God's creation.

They are scattered to the four corners of the earth - there are no corners, it is round, is it not? But they are scattered all over the globe. And it has cost them thousands and thousands of dollars. It has cost them everything that they worked for. And the member can sit there and say that the government did the right thing in closing it down. I would say they did not. You cannot put dollars and cents on that. The government did the wrong thing by closing it down - I said that when I stood here before to speak on Labrador Linerboard and I still say there was no reason to close it down. MR.

NEARY: You will never get (inaudible) MRS. MciSAAC : The market was looking good, everything was looking rosy when down it goes. 2956

May 8, 1979 Tape 1138 EC - 4 MR. WOODROW: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? ··-----·· " "'"'"'"'"'"'· closing down · She said in her speech (inaudible) MRS. MciSAAC: I agreed with the closing down. I believe that the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) was also against the close-down of the mill. MR. WOODROW: Yes, until I got all the facts. MRS. MCISACC: Well, I do not know if the hon. member for Bay of Islands got all the facts, b~t I did not get all the facts and I did not agree with the close down of Labrador Linerboard Mill . -~

May 8,1979 Tape No. 1139 AH-1 I did say finally that something had to be done, you know,we have to pick up and go on from there, it is water under the bridge. And I say that today, it is water under the bridge. It is closed down now and all the harm has been done to the people, financially and in any other way that you want to look at it, that is all water IL"lder the bridge. There is not a thing that can be done about it now. Those people have suffered and the people in my area, in the woods cperation have suffered. That is water under the bridge. We cannot help that now.

I am quite happy that the mill is going to Leopen. SOME RON • MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MRS MciSAAC: They will not forget it. They will never forget it. How can you forget when you have been hurt the way that those people have been hurt out there, when they have lost everything? It is easy to say they will fo~get it. Paint it over. Give it another coat of paint and forget it. They will not forget it. They will never forget it. They have been hurt too much to forget it. I would like to know how much it cost to keep the mill open.

If we knew how much it cost to keep that mill open - to close that mill down I rr.ean, if we knew how much it cost to close that mill down, to keep it in mothballs, to pay the staff that was there, to pay the severance pay and all the people who ended up on unemployment, the economy of the place was set back where it may probably never get back to the point that it was when Labrador Linerboard was there. You weigh all of this and you just tell me that it was the best move on the part of the government to close down that mill. No, I will never swallow that one.

There was wood enough left in the woods that was cut by Labrador Linerboard, left lying around in the woods, there was enough there to keep the mill going for two years. Not to say anything for what is on the bottom of the lakes and all 2958

May B ,1979 Tape No. 1139 AH-2 HRS MciSAAC: along the coastlines. The scandal and the mismanagement and everything, all put together­ hang on until everything comes out_ until the enquiry is comple-.::ea and cnen we w~ll know why the mill was closed. Hopefully we will know why the mill was closed. Then we will know if it was cheaper to close it than to keep it open.

From the stories that I am getting - and I think that I am in an area where I pick up quite a bit and I have been taking to quite a number of people who worked there, who worked directly with Linerboard and who knew what went on and who will tell the stories - if all that I am hearing and if all the rumours are true,eventually it will come out and we will know then why Linerboard was not manageable.

As far as I am concerned it was not manageable because there was too much scandal, waste, mismanagement, And ?fter Sweeney came there he turned the thing around and it looked like it was going to work, hut there was too wuch interference and he could not keep it going. There was no way that he could operate it even though he proved to government that he could save millions of dollars and had saved quite a bit in the short term that he was there. He got the boot too. He could not stay there because there was too much government interference, so that was the end of it.

As far as I am concerned the Moores administration did nothing for Bay St. George. They closed down Linerboard, put everybody out there on their ear, business people, woodsmen, people who worked in Linerboard, just set them right back on their ear, that is what the Moores administration did for the Bay St. George area. And I support this bill. I am quite happy that the mill will re-open. However, I just hope that it reepens and that this time it does stay open. The bill looks good.

I hope the bill is - there is probably a lot of it, there's a lot thats not in there, and there's a lot to be determined because there's a lot left to your imagination. You have got to try to figure out little bits. There is a bit of information in thereJ there is an awful lot that is not there. so, it is hard to say what will happen when the mill opens. Z959

l'.ay 8. 1979 Ta,pe No. ll39 JG-3 MRS MCISAAC: But I know one thing, when you have got an area where there is about 4,000 peop le, I suppose right now, registered with Canada Manpower, office looking for work. peo9le who are on Social ~ssist~~ce because une~~~?loyment, eve::'l though it is a little bit better c.ltan Social Assistance i t coes not last forever. and when people either have to draw unemployment or live on Social ~ssistance, there is no way in the world that they are living, they are barely existing. And 1 would say the r e are approximately 29~ 0

Nay 8, 1979 Tape No. 1140 SD - 1 MRS. H. MCISAAC: 4,000 people now registered with Canada Manpower waiting for the mill to open and there is certainly not going to be 4,000 people employed with the mill. we will get a few jobs out of that but we still go.t them lined up at the welfare office door- s~, I suppose,with the direct employment and the spin-off woods operation whenever that commences - I understand that they are hoping to<start marketing in 1981 and it is only 1979 now so we have got two more hungry years to look forward to in Bay St. George unless something else is done. But I guess it is a start.

All I can say is) in closing -I do not want to draw this thing out - I want to support the bill. As I said, half a loaf is better than none, A slice is better ~~an none right now, and in Bay St. George we are to the point now where we will take a slice of bread if we can not get a loaf. I would certainly like to see some more "information come out on it.as to just what the figures are, what it cost to close that mill down or to mothball it. Thence, the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. L. Woodrow) said something else that I would like to comment on.

He said, "What are the people out there thinking?" He said, "We have got a crowd of people in here. One person says one thing and the other one says something else." Well, I thought that this was what the House of Assembly was all about. I thought that this was a forum for debate where we could come in here and if I want to say something I say it and if somebody else says something opposite well, he is entitled to do it. But, apparently, we are not supposedto do this, we are all supposedto think alike. So I do not know who is misled, if it is myself or the member from Bay of Islands(~.

Woodrow), but as far as I am concerned we are in here to debate and it is not a debate unless there is a difference of opinion. And as long as I have an opinion, I am going to express it one way or the other, I do not care what anyone else's opinion is I am going to state my opinion

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1140 SD - 2 MRS. H. MCISAAC: because I beleive ~~at the House of Assembly is a chamber for debate. If we can not bring it in b.==~ ~~:! :!e~.:.t-e it =.!!d ki~"""Jc ;_r ~rn1Jnrl anrl hilve different opinions on it then what are we going to do? Everybody can go to the media with their different opinions sure. I do not think that is the place to go either. I think that this is a forum for debate and as long as it is,we are entitled to come in here and debate and have our differences of opinion regardless of what they are. Well, I would like to know what the people in Bay St.

George are going to do for the time being? Sure, the Linerboard mill or the mill is supposed to open. The renovations should start or conversion should start but that is not going to take up all slack in Bay St. George. When does the woods operation start? Four thousand people on welfare is something that the Government should certainly be concerned about because they are not going to be on unemployment forever, they are going to be on welfare. And whether Goverruuent has the money to keep them going is something else. As far as ~~e Linerboard mill is concerned it never should have closed down.

It is opening up again and I say,"Thank Gc<l that it has been so." Whether it is a good move-r do not say it is the best move that could have been made or that we have got the best - price that we could have gotten •. I think that we were lucky to get the $43,500,000 or whatever the figure is, I am not quite sure now,but I do not think it is eoough for Labrador Liner board. But it is probably the best we can get since we destroyed our chances of getting a better price .

Because if we advertised that the mill was not worth more than a dollar, It wasno good, there is nobody going to be anxious to go out and buy something that is useless. So, I would say that we are very fortunate to get what we got for it. But if it had not been downgraded t.o the point that it was

Hay B, 1979 Tape No. 1140 so - 3 MRS. H. MCISAAC: they may very well be getting $243 million for it instead of $43 million, top price 2963

May 8, 1979 Tape 1141 PK - l Mrs. Mcisaac: or what it cost anyway. It is going to cost double that to ever build another one. I cannot understand why the thing was destroved, and the chances of sellinq i t were destroved. It was downgrades to the point where it was not worth a dollar, and the government said it was not worth a dollar, and they could not get a dollar for it. So who is going to be fool enough to come out and offer $200 million for it, if the government said it was not worth a dollar? I think that we should have been pushing it, and saying that it was worth every penny that was put into it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MRS. MCISAAC: But instead of that here we are now getting $43.million for it, and I suppose we are lucky to get that, more than lucky. So if government had stayed out of it and let Mr. Sweeney operate it for a while; I do not think that it would have cost government too much to let him go on for another year to give it a try. He was willing to give it a try. He said that he could turn the thing around and make it viable. No, that was not the idea, the mill had to go. MR. F. B. ROWE: MRS. MCISAAC: It was never meant to work, it had to go. Big Bad John.

So it went and the people in Bay St. George suffered because of it and they will not recuperate. They will never recuperate from it; they have lost too much. They have lost their homes. They have lost everything out there. They had ta _sell or give away what they had and go to greener ;;>astures .. and the government will look up and say that they did the best thing possible. They went against,as far as I am concerned,the recommendations of the Advisory Board. They did not say sell the mill, get rid of it. But that was argued last year and the year before so there is no point in rehashing all that.

But I want to just finally say that I support the bill and I just hope that the mill turns the economic situation that exists in the Bay St. George area today around. I hope that there will be spin-off from the mill, from the woods operation and I just hope that a year from now Bay St. George looks br.igJ-.ter than it looks 2964

May 8, 1979 Tape 1141 IB-2 MRS • MCISAAC: right now. There are a lot of people there who did not give up, and they may very well suffer more before the mill is open and operating. But I certainly hope that it will bring a ray of light to the Bay St. George area and hopefully it will take about 3,000 or 4,000 people off of unemployment or welfare or whatever they are on and put them back in the ranks of the employed· Because there is nothing as degrading as to have to walk up to the welfare office and look for - handouts is what it is.

It is not really handouts because it is their own tax money, but right now people in that area consider it handouts because they have got to be there every second week in order to keep their families alive and it is all due to the fact that Labrador Linerboard was closed down, It never should have been closed down. It would have been a booming area right now if it had not been closed down. It is opening again, good! Fine! I support the bill and hope that something will be done about it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER(Ottenheimer) : The hen. member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, first of all I would like to say that I certainly understand the concern of the member for St. George's (Mrs. Mcisaac). And I am sure that if she were asked to she could give instance after instance of families that have -been dispossessed and their family life disrupted, homes that have had to be sold and a great deal of dislocation and industrial misery. An outsider would wonder in going over that mill site how such an apparently prosperous looking mill could close. I went over the site twice, first in 1972 before it was finished and then I think it was in 1974 after it was, you know, going full steam.

All the equipment looked to be new. The planning seemed to be carefully done. The operation seemed to integrated. The logs flowed in one end, were barked and chipped, the chips flowed into this large machine which seemed to operate quite efficiently and the linerboard seemed to come out in these great rows and from there they went into a big shed where they were picked up by a great magnetic

~1ay 8, 1979 Tape 1141 I:B-3 !4R. J . CArtTER: crane and very efficiently loaded onto waiting steamers. You ~~uld think to look at it that it did, could and should pay a.'ld that the last few years have been reall y a disastr~s i~terlude. When you look at it a little more closely, ~r. Speaker, you realize that the villain is the Labrador wood. That mill was conceived to nandle something like 400, 000 cords a year of which only about 200,000 were available on the Island . 200,000 had to be gotten from the Labrador 29SS The ocl\er " .,

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1142 GH-1 MR. J. CARTER: and it was a sad fact, possibly partially due to inefficiency, mostly due to distance and climar.~ 1 think. that Labrador wood was not and is not and cannot apparently be harvested satisfactorily.

Of course, my first involvement with the mill was when we formed the government back in 1972 and we found the very first day that we sat down as a government that the very first item of business was that John Doyle could not pay his bills and he needed an immediate injection of cash to the sum of $1 million; and, of course, that was given under pressure and then we sat down to say, "Well, what will we do with the mill?" It was an uncompleted mill at the time and as I remember there were three choices. The first choice was to let it sink. Let John Doyle find the money the best way he could.

Chances are his only sources were sources that would not look too kindly upon him if he were not able to repay the money; and, in fact, the more bloody-minded among us thought that it might be a good idea to let his chickens come horne to roost. And I will tell you this, if we had, he would not now be down in Panama living the life of 'Riley'. That was one possibility, but then against that was the argument that there were a lot of innocent investors who had invested in good faith and wha.t were we to do with them?

The second choice was a very strange choice; It was to put it into trusteeship, just put it into limbo, sort of mothball it in its uncompleted form and hope that someone would come along and buy it. The argument against that at the time was that, well, maybe who would want to buy an uncompleted mill, something that

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1142 GH-2 MR. J. CARTER: had not been tried and tested and that all the money that had been poured into it, and at that timP. I think it was something like seventy millions of dollars, all that money would be down the drain, so trusteeship was decided against. The third choice is what we actually did. We finished it and ran it ourselves with a view to selling it later. There was no intention of closing it and then hoping for a buyer to come along.

We had hoped to run it, prove that it could be run efficiently, sell it even at a loss - we hoped it would only be a slight loss - and then find a buyer for it who would run it as a linerboard mill. But the situation with Labrador wood would not allow us to make it even a half-paying concern. No company in their right mind would ever buy it as a linerboard mill. Even today it cannot apparently pay as a linerboard mill and, of course, the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Doody) has the facts and figures that I certainly accept.

I will not go into them now, and I think they are available to everyone, anyone who wants to seriously sit down and study this situation with the mill. The facts and figures are there and I think they are only open to one

interpretation and that is that the mill could not pay as conceived. On the other hand, it is very necessary to have pulp and paper operations in the Province because our sawmilling industry cannot pay unless the top part of the stick can be sold as a pulp stick. Our woods are not big enough for us to make a properly paying sawmill industry. About half of the tree that is cut down has to be used for pulp sticks, so a contractor goes out and cuts so Z968

----- May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1142 GB- 3 ~ffi . J . CARTER: many cords of wood . If he did not have an outlet for the pulpwood size, he would only b~ able tc> g.;!t ""' 1 f "c; mnc h i'J.O;: he can har vest . so it is absolute! y vital that we have an outlet for our pulp1~ood and that we be able to s.ell pulp1oood at all times . Fl.lrthermore, sor·.1e of the trees in a forest never do attain a size sufficient for a sawmill so it is absolutely essential that we always have this pulpqood outlet . So the government closed the mill 296 9

May 8, 1979 Tape 1143 EC - l MR. J. CARTER: and perhaps it closed it too late, but it was closed and now it is sold and I think i•- can be opened again. And the nature of the mill is going to be changed, it is going to be a paper mill and it is going to operate at less than 400,000 cords of wood capacity. I understand that it will be operating at something like 200,000 cords of wood per year. Now, here I would like to digress for a moment. I certainly find myself in agreement with the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) - this may seem strange - but I do feel that television should be admitted into the House at all times. In fact, I would find it very amusing to see the member for LaPoile perhaps doing a dance up the floor. He could perhaps do the dance of the Sugarplum Fairy to the amusement of all of Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. J. CARTER: I am sure that he would love nothing better than to have himself on television at all times. In fact, I notice, observing the hen. gentleman, that he seems to get quite depressed if his name is not in the news for even as much as a day at a time. But be that as it may.

AN HON. MEMBER: He goe~ . on (inaudihle). MR. CALLAN: That is the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) you are talking about. is it not? MR. J. CARTER: Well, apparently, some politicians do need puQlicity to keep them going and I suppose it is an occupational disease, Mr. Speaker, to get back to Bill 15 again, I understand that the $43.5 million is the first amount to be paid without any guarantees so that there is no further need for Newfoundland to pay any money towards the continued operation of the mill. We are off the hook as far as having to subsidize the further operation of the mill. We are 29'/0

May 8, 1979 Tape 1143 EC - 2 MR. J. CARTER: also off the hook in that we do not have to subsidize any conversion. Even if the conversion to newsprint does not work at first, we are not obliged to pay any more money for further conversion. Also, the company is agreeing to pay a penalty clause, that is to say, if they are not producing within a certain length of time they pay so much, and if they are not open for a longer length of time they pay a great deal more. ! would also like to touch on a more general topic, Mr. Speaker. This House, since we have opened, has seen a number of charges.

In f~ct, every year we have a great many unfounded charges laid at somebody's doorstep, and I think it is a pity either that we are not all lawyers or that there are any lawyers in the House. I think the lawyers among us would be the first ones to say that a charge is not a charge until someone's name has been mentioned - in other words, you have to give a name. That is the first thing. You also have to give a date - a date when a deed was done. It is no good saying that somebody did something before 1900. I am sure the statute of limitations would have run out long since.

Also, you have to name the deed - what was done - that somebody did something at such and such a time and in such and such a place. So you have four elements, you have the name, the deed, the date and the place. It is no good saying that somebody did such and such in New Zealand - that is a little beyond our jurisdiction. And yet, time after time people get up and say so and so did something, somewhere, sometime, and that is supposed to stick. And I would just like to establish these ground rules, that if these four elements are not present then you do not have a charge.

And I see the Leader of the Opposition nodding - I am sure he agrees with me that if these four elements are not there there is no charge and there cannot be any charge. 2971

.May 9, 1979 Tape 114 3 MR. SIMMONS: A badly stabbed body is not necessarily a proof of murder. MR. J. C.II<I.TER: MR. SIMMONS: MR. J. CARTER: It depends who the person - Because you have no date, you see. Well, if the hen. gentleman's body, filled with stab wounds, were to turn up in a ditch, I would assume that he probably - MR. SIMMONS: They would check Motint Scio Farms first thing in the morning - MR. J. CARTER: - I might assume that the hon. gentleman did it himself unless there were stab marks in his back. MR. S IM . .'otONS : But no date, eh? Stunned ! MR. J.

CARTER: I would also like to deal with some lunacy from the Leader of the Opposition. I believe in his speech - and I have just made rough notes - that he said that the costs of closing the mill were greater than the costs of keeping it open.

May a, 1979 Tape No. 1144 so - 1 MR. J. CARTER: Now, I can not give you specifics because I do not have all the facts in front of me.but it is my of keeping that mill running was equal to the day by day production, that is to say, if 400 tons of liner board were produced the cost of producing that was double the cost you could sell it for. So for every day every ton of linerboard you produced you were losing precisely that amount of money. Now, that situation could not continue. But of course the Leader of the Opposition swept that under the carpet because in his philosophy money does not matter.

And I think this applies to Liberal philosophy generally. Money is not important. You know if there is not enough money - print more. This is the thread that runs through all their arguments. And I think I can sum up his tirade by the following four lines. ··~en you hear the voice of the knocker. I And you hear his hammer faL4/Remember the fact that the knocking act,/ Requires no brain at all," SOME 9CN. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEL'!ER): MR. J. HODDER: Hear, hear! The hon. member for Port au Port. Mr. Speaker, I just have a very few words. I think that most that has to be said has been said in this House.

The last time I rose to speak about the then Labrador Linerboard mill I think at that time I spoke for some four and a half hours and I have no intentions of going over that again.I think most of it has been gone over in the past week by many members on both sides of the House. I think it is useful though to speak about some of the things that happened in the past with Labrador Linerboard limited because I do not think the lesson should ever be forgotten in Newfoundland or it should ever be forgotten exactly what happened there.

And I hope that sometime in the future that perhaps some research student will go back and look at the documents relating fral' . the time the mill was conceived , I suppose, in the minds of the then government until the moment when Abitibi Price took over the mill.

, May a, 1979 Tape No. 1144 ow - 2 MR. J. CARTER: Because I believe that if that were to be done in a proper manner I think we would have a lesson for future generations of how not to handle a particular part of the economy of this Province and how government's can mismanage and blunder and do everything that is wrong and perhaps tear apart a community, send people without work to other parts of this country and other countries. I think, Mr. Speaker, it would be a useful lesson for all of us. But so far as this particular situation at the present time is preceived in the Bay St.

George area,I think most people are very pleased that a company like Abitibi Price has come . '\ ~nto Bay St. George\ in that I think people are now breathing a sigh . \ of relief that there will be some stability to the region, Because since l971 1 when this l::ecame an election issue and I believe, Mr. Speake:o:--and I remember comments like the mill is the wrong place, the thing car~"lot work - right from the very beginning- it is a bluff emanating from the Opposition benches at that time .. I think that probably <~hat happened, Mr.

Speaker, was that the Opposition at that time when they bec~.e the government had convinced themselves that the mill could not ~~rk and from that ~int onward behaved in that particular way. And once you convince yourself that somethLng cannot work it is very difficult to make it work. As I say, Mr. Speaker, as far< as the people of Bay St. George is concerned it is almost - it is one of the most fantastic things that has happened there in a long time. I do 2974

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1145 GH-1 MR. HODDER: hope, Mr. Speaker, that perhaps the Linerboard issue or the mill issue is closed now in the have had enough of having the mill kicked around as a political football. We do not have to tell these particular people exactly what happened in the mill because a lot of them worked there and they know exactly what the history of the mill is and where the blame should lie and where the praise should be given. And, Mr. Speaker, all I want to say is that the mill may not have been sold for the - or the deal may not be the best one in the world.

I am happy that it is coming to an end, that it has come to a conclusion, that we are looking forward now to getting some work, getting some employment and we are looking forward to the area growing. I might point out though, Mr. Speaker, that the fact that the mill is now in operation will not make Bay St. George prosperous. That is only one component of the industrial base of Bay St.

George and that at the present time if you look at the lists of people who are on social assistance in that area and the lists of people who are drawing UIC and if you go check with Canada Manpower and you see the number of people unemployed and you look at the possible jobs that the mill can pr-ovide, both direct jobs and indirect, you realize that we still have a problem in Bay St.

George of enormous magnitude; and that this government must look at that particular area of this Province and say, "We must do som-ething about it by opening or signing an agreement with Abitibi Price." That does not do anything to help the unemployment situation in large measure. But I think that that has to become for whichever government is in power in this Province~that they must look at the Province and look at 2975

May 8, 1979 Tape No. 1145 GP.-2 MR. HODDER: the pockets of unemployment in the Province and someone must bite the bullet and take steps and measures to combat these situations.I know that my district probably has the highest unemployment in the Province. Certainly, Western Newfoundland and Labrador is one of the highest unemployment areas in - well, Newfoundland is the highest unemployment area in Canada and that is the highest unemployment area in Newfoundland.

I believe my district of Port au Port is probably the highest in that particular federal area· ~when you look at the fact that the· West Coast is a storehouse of treasures, there is the fishery, we have mining, we have pulp and paper, we have agriculture_, all we need to do, Mr. Speaker, is put it all together and the area could be one of the most prosperous parts of this Province and perhaps one of the most prosperous parts of Canada. I do not think it should be forgotten that by signing an agreement that the mill will start, that the problem will go away there. It is a help. People are pleased with it.

They are looking forward to going back to work. They are not particularly pleased, Mr. Speaker, with the way that the government has handled the whole deal. I could, I suppoae, go through some of the things that have been talked about in this House and been talked about after the mill closed. I do not believe for one minute, Mr. Speaker, that it should have closed. We had at that particular time, we had a government which took over and tried to run a mill. We had a manager there, who was under direct orders from the government,who could not make decisions.

We had systems for the mill, transportation systems which were not worked out. We had wood handling

May 8, 1979 Tape No . 1145 GH-3 !>rR. HODDER: systems which were not worked out. We had a mill which was run in the interest of the ;~7~~~e~~ ~~t her th~n th~ i nt erest of economics . I think that many of the decisions the government made - I think perhaps that is another lesson from this particular mill, that many of the decisions that the government made were in the interest of particular interest groups in the Province and not in the interests of the mill itself. And that is one thing that private enterprise does very '.rell, ~.r. Speaker.

Private enterprise runs systems in the interests of itself, in the interest of the profit motive and it seems to be the very best system as I think will be proved in Stephenville . Now, Mr. speaker, while I say that the mill itself will offer the people of Bay St. George stability, and while I say that the people of Bay St. George, I suppose, in the desperate circumstances that they are,

May 8, 1979 Tape 1146 IB-1 MR. HODDER: they are not particularly interested whether it was a good deal that was signed, whether it was a good deal that was made or not. While that may be so I will certainly say this, Mr . Speaker, that the people of Bay St. George do not throw any bouquets or laurels at this particular government for the handling of that mill and it will be as my friend and colleague from St. George's (Mrs.

Mcisaac) said, it will be years before some people will ever get back to the position they were before,people who have solo their houses, people who have moved away and people whose families have been broken up, people who will not return to Bay St. George. ·there are many who will not return, some will. We only can hope now, Mr. Speaker, that with the stability that Abitibi Price will give, and they have indicated that they will be good corporate citizens of the area, that the stability that it will give the area will, you know, give us a brighter future.

Already, I suppose, you can see some signs of that in the area. You see businesses moving in and you see plans for the future, something that could not be done before because of the political nature of Labrador Linerboard Limited. I think, Mr. Speaker, one thing has been proven at least that the slogan of the han. gentlemen opposite in 1971, that the mill was in the wrong place, has certainly been disproved. &~d I think certainly, I believe that the mill will prosper and will continue to prosper . I will be voting for this particular bill as will my colleagues.

As I said before I do not think it is a perfect bill, I can see lots of things wrong with the deal but, Mr. Speaker, in the interest of the people of Bay st. George and in the interest of the area itself, I will be supportin