British Columbia Hansard — Thursday, February 23, 2006 (38th Parliament, 2nd Session) (H0223pm-11) (H0223pm 11)

H0223pm-11

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session, 38th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Thursday, February 23, 2006 Afternoon Sitting Volume 6, Number 11 THE HONOURABLE BILL BARISOFF, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Iona V. Campagnolo, CM, OBC SECOND SESSION, 38TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations .......................................................................................................... Hon.

John van Dongen Deputy Premier and Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...................... Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation .......................................................................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Minister of Advanced Education and Minister Responsible for Research and Technology ........................................... Hon.

Murray Coell Minister of Agriculture and Lands.......................................................................................................................................................Hon. Pat Bell Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism............................................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Minister of Children and Family Development ..........................................................................................................................Hon.

Stan Hagen Minister of State for Childcare ........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Linda Reid Minister of Community Services and Minister Responsible for Seniors’ and Women’s Issues........................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Economic Development and Minister Responsible for the Asia-Pacific Initiative and the Olympics.................Hon.

Colin Hansen Minister of Employment and Income Assistance ...........................................................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources .......................................................................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining............................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Bill Bennett Minister of Environment and Minister Responsible for Water Stewardship and Sustainable Communities ...............Hon. Barry Penner Minister of Finance.......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for Housing ............................................................................. Hon.

Rich Coleman Minister of Health ......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. George Abbott Minister of Labour and Citizens’ Services .......................................................................................................................... Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General................................................................................................................................Hon.

John Les Minister of Small Business and Revenue and Minister Responsible for Deregulation ...................................................... Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of Tourism, Sport and the Arts .........................................................................................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Falcon LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Official Opposition .........................................................................................................................................................Carole James Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................Sindi Hawkins Assistant Deputy Speaker.....................................................................................................................................................................Sue Hammell Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole.................................................................................................................................................

Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .........................................................................................................................E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .......................................................................................................................................................Ian D.

Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................................................................Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Dan Arbic

Party Standings: Liberal 46; New Democratic 33 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ..........................................................................Shuswap Austin, Robin (NDP)...................................................................................Skeena Bains, Harry (NDP)....................................................................... Surrey-Newton Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...............................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon. Pat (L) ..................................................................Prince George North Bennett, Hon.

Bill (L) .....................................................................East Kootenay Black, Iain (L) ..................................................................Port Moody–Westwood Bloy, Harry (L).....................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).......................................... Prince George–Mount Robson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)..........................................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L) ..............................................

Vancouver–Point Grey Cantelon, Ron (L)................................................................... Nanaimo-Parksville Chong, Hon. Ida (L) ......................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ...................................................... Okanagan-Vernon Chudnovsky, Dave (NDP).................................................Vancouver-Kensington Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ..........................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon.

Rich (L)................................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Conroy, Katrine (NDP) ............................................... West Kootenay–Boundary Coons, Gary (NDP) .............................................................................North Coast Cubberley, David (NDP)................................................................. Saanich South de Jong, Hon.

Michael (L) ........................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Dix, Adrian (NDP) ..............................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Evans, Corky (NDP)......................................................................Nelson-Creston Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) ............................................................

Surrey-Cloverdale Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ....................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Fleming, Rob (NDP) ...................................................................Victoria-Hillside Fraser, Scott (NDP) ...................................................................Alberni-Qualicum Gentner, Guy (NDP)............................................................................ Delta North Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ......................................................................Comox Valley Hammell, Sue (NDP) ........................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Hansen, Hon. Colin (L) .......................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Hawes, Randy (L)............................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Sindi (L) .................................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ..................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Gordon (L)................................................................... Surrey–White Rock Horgan, John (NDP)...........................................................

Malahat–Juan de Fuca Horning, Al (L)................................................................ Kelowna–Lake Country Ilich, Hon. Olga (L)....................................................................Richmond Centre James, Carole (NDP)............................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Jarvis, Daniel (L)........................................................North Vancouver–Seymour Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) .................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Krog, Leonard (NDP)..............................................................................

Nanaimo Krueger, Kevin (L)................................................... Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)................................ Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lali, Harry (NDP)..............................................................................Yale-Lillooet Lee, Richard T. (L).........................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................... Peace River South Les, Hon. John (L)....................................................................

Chilliwack-Sumas Macdonald, Norm (NDP)......................................... Columbia River–Revelstoke MacKay, Dennis (L)......................................................... Bulkley Valley–Stikine Mayencourt, Lorne (L)............................................................Vancouver-Burrard McIntyre, Joan (L)...................................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) ....................................................... Peace River North Nuraney, John (L)..................................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Oppal, Hon.

Wally, QC (L)............................................... Vancouver-Fraserview Penner, Hon. Barry (L)................................................................ Chilliwack-Kent Polak, Mary (L) ......................................................................................... Langley Puchmayr, Chuck (NDP)........................................................... New Westminster Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ...................................................................Surrey-Whalley Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ..................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon.

Claude (L)...................................................................Kamloops Robertson, Gregor (NDP) .....................................................Vancouver-Fairview Roddick, Valerie (L)............................................................................ Delta South Routley, Doug (NDP).......................................................... Cowichan-Ladysmith Rustad, John (L) ..............................................................Prince George–Omineca Sather, Michael (NDP)..............................................

Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ........................................ Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Bob (NDP).......................................................................Cariboo North Simpson, Shane (NDP) ......................................................... Vancouver-Hastings Sultan, Ralph (L) .........................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Taylor, Hon. Carole (L)..........................................................

Vancouver-Langara Thorne, Diane (NDP) ......................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L)............................................................Okanagan-Westside Trevena, Claire (NDP) .......................................................................North Island van Dongen, Hon. John (L)..................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Whittred, Katherine (L).............................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wyse, Charlie (NDP) ......................................................................Cariboo South Yap, John (L)........................................................................Richmond-Steveston LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn ........................................................ Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman................................................Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum ...............................................................................

Scott Fraser Bulkley Valley–Stikine ................................................................ Dennis MacKay Burnaby North................................................................................ Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds............................................................................. Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Willingdon ........................................................................John Nuraney Burquitlam............................................................................................

Harry Bloy Cariboo North....................................................................................Bob Simpson Cariboo South................................................................................... Charlie Wyse Chilliwack-Kent ....................................................................... Hon. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas ........................................................................... Hon.

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke ......................................................Norm Macdonald Comox Valley .............................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville................................................................... Diane Thorne Cowichan-Ladysmith .......................................................................Doug Routley Delta North........................................................................................

Guy Gentner Delta South...................................................................................Valerie Roddick East Kootenay ............................................................................Hon. Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin ............................................................. Maurine Karagianis Fort Langley–Aldergrove....................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops ......................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson..........................................................

Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country .......................................................................Al Horning Kelowna-Mission ............................................................................Sindi Hawkins Langley................................................................................................

Mary Polak Malahat–Juan de Fuca........................................................................John Horgan Maple Ridge–Mission ......................................................................Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...........................................................Michael Sather Nanaimo ...........................................................................................Leonard Krog Nanaimo-Parksville..........................................................................

Ron Cantelon Nelson-Creston.................................................................................. Corky Evans New Westminster ........................................................................Chuck Puchmayr North Coast .........................................................................................Gary Coons North Island.................................................................................... Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale ....................................................

Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour .............................................................. Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head.................................................................Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon ..............................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside................................................................... Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North ...............................................................Hon.

Richard Neufeld Peace River South ..........................................................................Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley...................................................... Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain................................................. Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Westwood .........................................................................Iain Black Powell River–Sunshine Coast.....................................................Nicholas Simons Prince George North .........................................................................Hon.

Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................. Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca .....................................................................John Rustad Richmond Centre .......................................................................... Hon. Olga Ilich Richmond East ............................................................................ Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ............................................................................... John Yap Saanich North and the Islands..................................................Hon.

Murray Coell Saanich South..............................................................................David Cubberley Shuswap ................................................................................ Hon. George Abbott Skeena ...............................................................................................Robin Austin Surrey-Cloverdale ....................................................................Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers.....................................................................

Sue Hammell Surrey-Newton ....................................................................................Harry Bains Surrey–Panorama Ridge...................................................................... Jagrup Brar Surrey-Tynehead .............................................................................Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ............................................................................... Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock..........................................................................

Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard .................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview.................................................................. Gregor Robertson Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Vancouver-Hastings...................................................................... Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington ........................................................... David Chudnovsky Vancouver-Kingsway...........................................................................

Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara.................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Vancouver–Mount Pleasant .............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey..................................................... Hon. Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena ............................................................. Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill ........................................................................Carole James Victoria-Hillside................................................................................

Rob Fleming West Kootenay–Boundary ............................................................ Katrine Conroy West Vancouver–Capilano ............................................................... Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi............................................................. Joan McIntyre Yale-Lillooet ..........................................................................................Harry Lali

CONTENTS Thursday, February 23, 2006 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... .............................................. 2449 Statements (Standing Order 25 B) .............................................................................................................................. ............. 2450 Flaunt your Frenchness campaign D. Thorne Contributions of African Canadians D. Hayer Aboriginal enhancement agreement in Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows M.

Sather Richmond Addiction Services J. Yap Name change for Golden to Hockey, B.C. N. Macdonald Seniors in the 21st century R. Cantelon Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ......................................................... 2452 Care beds for seniors in Kootenay area N. Macdonald Hon. G. Abbott Availability of beds at Royal Inland Hospital H. Lali Hon. G. Abbott Participation of Les Vertesi in health care research tour D. Cubberley Hon. G. Abbott Condition of housing in downtown east side J. Kwan Hon. R. Coleman D.

Routley Government plan for social housing D. Routley Hon. R. Coleman Cancellation of leaving certificates for special needs students J. Horgan Hon. S. Bond Coverage for reconstructive surgery R. Austin Hon. G. Abbott Budget allocation for Premier's office M. Farnworth Hon. C. Taylor Petitions...................................................................................................................... ............................................................... 2457 J.

Horgan Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................... 2457 Supplementary Estimates (No. 1) (continued) G. Robertson Hon. C. Taylor A. Dix J. Kwan

Introduction and First Reading of Bills........................................................................................ ......................................... 2466 Supply Act, 2005-2006 (Supplementary Estimates No. 1) (Bill 5) Hon. C. Taylor Second Reading of Bills........................................................................................................ ................................................... 2466 Supply Act, 2005-2006 (Supplementary Estimates No. 1) (Bill 5) Hon. C.

Taylor Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... .......................................... 2467 Supply Act, 2005-2006 (Supplementary Estimates No. 1) (Bill 5) Report and Third Reading of Bills .............................................................................................. ........................................... 2467 Supply Act, 2005-2006 (Supplementary Estimates No. 1) (Bill 5) Budget Debate (continued)............................................................................................................................... ........................ 2467 D.

Hayer S. Fraser Hon. L. Reid C. Puchmayr

2449 THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 2006 The House met at 2:03 p.m. Introductions by Members Hon. L.

Reid: I have the very great pleasure today to welcome to this chamber many representatives from the University of British Columbia AMS Society: S o p h i a H a q u e , i n c o m i n g A M S V P f o r f i n a n c e ; C h r i s Little, AMS councillor; Jeff Friedrich, incoming AMS VP academic; Gina Eom, student senate caucus chair; Darren Peets, AMS councillor; Gavin Dew, current VP academic; Jess Pisarek, AMS external; Ryan Corbett, AMS councillor; Patricia Lau, AMS councillor; David Yuen, incoming AMS; Herman Tam, AMS external and a Richmond constituent — one of mine; Trevor Gilks, AMS executive coordinator of student services; Zoe Shipley, AMS councillor; Andy Nguyen, AMS external; Quinn Omori, student representative; Reka Pataky, AMS councillor; Omar Sirri, AMS councillor; Kevin Keystone; Laura Levine; Lis Parfitt; Jess Klug, current VP external; Ian Pattilo, incoming AMS VP; and David Wells, policy adviser.

I know many of you have had the opportunity to meet with these extraordinary young people. I want to say it has been a pleasure to have my office assist in their visit with us today, and certainly I suggest that this is an example of British Columbia's finest young people, who will indeed make an enormous contribu- tion as they go forward in their careers. I would ask the House to please make them very welcome. [1405] H. Lali: With us here in the galleries are Bill Stow- ell, who is a friend and a lo g-trader. Joining him is Will Sloan. He's a forestry consul tant.

Both of these fellows are from my hometown of Merritt. They're in Victoria today attending the B.C. Pr ofessional Foresters AGM, and they've come here to see us cross swords during question period. Could th e House please give my friends from Merritt a warm welcome. Hon. S. Bond: I am absolutely delighted to have two very important people in my world in the House today. I think all of us who are here in this place know that when you get involved in politics, your family comes along with you whether they choose to or not. We certainly know that they give up a lot.

I'm really happy today to have one of our twins, our son Christo- pher, here with us. He came to spend part of his read- ing break to actually get to visit with his mom. The good news is that he has had lots of time to read and not much time with his mom. But my son Chris is here. With Chris is someone who is here to celebrate. She was a legislative intern — I s h o u l d s a y , i n a f a r , f a r more recent class than that of the Minister of Health or the Minister of Environment. She has gone on to be- come incredibly important to me. She is my constitu- ency assistant.

I am delighted to have two incredible people in the gallery, Chris Bond and Jackie Eden. R. Fleming: I rise in the House today to introduce three guests who are with us in the gallery. Betty Bart- lett is a retired teacher and is a resident of Manotick, Ontario. She now volunteers with the Ottawa- Manotick archives. Susan Mann is a historian and president emeritus of York Un iversity in Toronto. Both of them are friends of my th ird guest, a constituent of the member for Victoria–Beacon Hill. She is a former Speaker of this House, a former minister and a former mayor of Victoria: Gretchen Brewin.

Will the House please make these three guests feel welcome. Hon. R. Coleman: I rise in the House to introduce some guests today. David Hansen is the fiancé of my terri- fic assistant in my office, Lucy. By the way, David is a great Seahawks fan. We're both still in mourning over the Super Bowl. Having said that, accompanying David today are also Gordon and Shirley Hansen, who are soon to be Lucy's in-laws and therefore are David's parents; and then Kay Stewart, who's David's aunt, soon to be Lucy's aunt- in-law. Would the House please make them welcome. L.

Krog: I'm delighted today to ask the House to make welcome here a group of international students from Malaspina High School, accompanied by their teacher, Mr. Butler. Would the House please make them welcome. Hon. S. Hagen: I'm pleased to introduce to the House today a very special young woman from the Comox Val- ley. Kelly Murdock, who lives in Courtenay, is returning from Queen's University where she's studying political science. It's a reading break for Kelly, so we welcome her to Victoria and also back home to Courtenay. Would you please join me in making her welcome. C. Trevena: Mr.

Speaker, I have the pleasure to introduce a former constituent of yours who is now a constituent of mine: Mary Storry. Mary left Penticton, where she was a city councillor, to return to Campbell River. She has shown how wise she is in coming back to the north Island, and within months of her return, she was elected to Campbell River city council. I hope the House will make her and her daughter Kristen, who is studying forest ecology at UBC, most welcome. J. Kwan: I'm very delighted, for I do not get very many guests visiting me in the Legislature.

Today I have the pleasure of introducing five very special guests from my community. They include Muggs Siguerison, who is a resident of the Strathcona com- munity and a strong, strong advocate for equality and social justice, a tireless volunteer in all sorts of sectors in our community. Along with her is Stephen Lytton, who is a member of the Lytton Nation. He is on the Carnegie board. He's also on the aboriginal homeless- ness steering committee and the B.C. Aboriginal Net- work on Disabilities Society board.

He is also an actor. [1410] Along with Stephen and Muggs are Gena Thomp- son, who lives in the Lori Krill co-op on Georgia Street,

2450 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 2006 is also on the Carnegie boar d and is a learning centre volunteer and a student at Langara. Harold Asham is also visiting. He is a computer tutor volunteer at the Carnegie learning centre and writes for the newsletter in our community. Last but not least, I'd like to also introduce Luka Jolicoeur. Sh e is with the DERA co-op and is also a very active community member from the downtown east side. I'd like to ask the House to please welcome all my special guests. D.

Thorne: It's my absolute pleasure today to intro- duce the House to my youngest son, Lee Edmondson, who is in the gallery for the very first time. He lives in Coquitlam in my riding — in my house, actually. That's my absolute pleasure as well. Interjections. D. Thorne: Now I've lost my train of thought — not really. In any case, it is a pleasure to have my son here. He's an absolute advocate for his mother, and he's here today in that role, I'm sure.

With him is his friend James Morris, who is now a resident of Victoria, origi- nally from Coquitlam, and his friend Shannon, who just moved here from Ontario and is loving British Co- lumbia. I would ask the House to please make them very welcome. M. Farnworth: I won't even try to follow that. Anyway, it's my pleasure, following the govern- ment yesterday, to introduce the NDP interns for this session. They play a great role for both parties in this House, and it's an extremely useful experience for us and for them. It's my pleasure to introduce our NDP caucus interns who are in the gallery today.

First is Gwyneth Jones. She has a BA in sociology, honours, from Simon Fraser University. Karen Sa- watzky has a BA in history, honours, from the Univer- sity of Victoria. Adrian Etchell has a BA in political science and history, also from the University of Victo- ria. Emily Sinclair, a BA in political science from the University of Victoria — well represented. Finally, my favourite: Brock McLeod, who has a BA in liberal stud- ies. I won't even ask what's entailed in getting a degree in liberal studies, hon. Speaker, but I would ask the House to make them all very welcome. Hon.

M. de Jong: It is, of course, a discipline at- tracting increasing numbers of followers across the province. In the roll of the di ce that assigns interns to one caucus or another — I think the Health minister welcomed all of the members, but I wonder if I might follow on my friend the Opposition House Leader — the government's interns include Genevieve Murray, Justin Cheng, Zara Rahman, Corrie Delisle and Matt Watson. My own insecurity precludes me from listing their myriad academic credenti als, but I know that all members will also want to make these great young people and interns welcome to the precincts.

Lastly, on behalf of the member for Abbotsford- Clayburn, I'm pleased to welcome back to the precincts Ron Gladiuk, a friend, bon vivant and all-round good guy. It's great to have him back here in Victoria as well. [1415] Statements (Standing Order 25

B) FLAUNT YOUR FRENCHNESS CAMPAIGN D. Thorne: Several members have commented on my unusual attire today. I'm advertising the campaign in Coquitlam-Maillardville of which I will be speaking. The Flaunt Your Frenchness campaign is a celebration of the rich francophone heritage and culture of Mail- lardville, the oldest and largest francophone commu- nity in British Columbia. The campaign is about cele- brating whatever your Frenchness is — a passion for French food, French language, French film or getting back in touch with your French ancestry.

This year's campaign challenges everyone to find 50 different ways to celebrat e Flaunt Your Frenchness Week, which runs February 25 to March 5. It is a prel- ude to Francophone Month in British Columbia, which is March. During the week, residents and visitors alike will be encouraged to participate in French activities throughout Coquitlam. This cheeky campaign was trademarked by the city of Coquitlam and is part of its tourism project to both spread the word about the community and revitalize the Maillardville area.

The campaign received two na- tional marketing awards last year for promotional campaign and tourism marketing from the Economic Developers Association of Canada. The 2010 Olympics have been the catalyst for this community to see itself differently. The Olympics share the same two official languages as Canada: English and French. When the world comes to British Columbia, they will expect an authentic francophone experience, and Coquitlam will deliver with panache. Maillardville was filmed and featured on the B.C. Stories link that is put on by the B.C. Olympic secretariat.

It is aired at the log house, and media the world over will see Maillardville on clips given out at the Torino games and on trade missions. Flaunt Your Frenchness Week kicks off this Satur- day, with the music and heritage homes of Maillard- ville starting immediately after the launch. Seven heri- tage homes are opening themselves up to music and events for the francoph one community. All these events, including films, music and festivals, will take place all week. Please join us and celebrate your Frenchness in Maillardville in the next week. CONTRIBUTIONS OF AFRICAN CANADIANS D.

Hayer: I t i s a n h o n o u r t o d a y t o o b s e r v e B l a c k History Month in Canada. Over ten years ago in the Parliament of Canada — in support of a motion by the first woman of African Canadi an heritage to be elected to our federal Parliament, the Hon. Jean Augustine — our federal government officially recognized February as Black History Month.

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2451 While Ms. Augustine may have led the way in the federal scene, more than two decades earlier right here in British Columbia, Rosemary Brown became the first woman in Canada of African heritage to be elected as an MLA. While these two women may have led the way in politics, African Canadians have been part of our country for more than 400 years.

Over the centuries their contributions have been great, from making sacri- fices as Canadian soldiers during the War of 1812 to playing huge roles in helping slaves escape to Canada during the American Civil Wa r, to courageous fighting for Canada during the two world wars. African Canadians are prominent in every walk of life in our society. Many new immigrants from that great continent have made Canada very proud, like Surrey's own Daniel Igali, who won an Olympic gold medal for this country, as did Donovan Bailey, who brought glory to this nation when he became the fastest man alive in the Olympic 100-metres.

It is with great pleasure and pride that as Parlia- mentary Secretary for Multiculturalism and Immigra- tion, I ask all members of this House to salute the enormous contributions African Canadians have made to this country and to British Columbia. ABORIGINAL ENHANCEMENT AGREEMENT IN MAPLE RIDGE–PITT MEADOWS M. Sather: On January 25 my office had the honour of being asked to witness the signing of the second Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows aboriginal enhancement agreement.

The five-year agreement was signed by school district 42 officials, Chief Peter James of the Kat- zie First Nation, Chief Marilyn Gabriel of the Kwantlen First Nation and a representative of off-reserve abo- riginals and Métis. [1420] In school district 42 there are approximately 945 aboriginal students, 70 of whom are from the Katzie First Nation. The overall goal of the school district 42 aboriginal education depart ment is to enhance the school experience and academic success of aboriginal students.

There are 14 aboriginal support workers and three and a half teacher FTEs who maintain an academic focus with the students while promoting a cultural component. Over 100 cultural presentations and events are presented throughout the district each year. In June 2000 the aboriginal education department negotiated the first five-yea r aboriginal education en- hancement agreement with local aboriginal peoples and the Ministry of Education. Our school district's agreement was the first in th e province to not tie fund- ing to incentives to the success of aboriginal students.

This led other school districts to stop this practice. I would like to congratulate school district 42 on the success of its first enhancement agreement and wish them all the best for a successful second en- hancement agreement. I would also like to take this opportunity to wish a very happy retirement to the vice-principal of aboriginal education in school district 42, Jim McCulloch. He has been instrumental in the success of aboriginal education in Maple Ridge and Pitt Meadows. RICHMOND ADDICTION SERVICES J.

Yap: I rise today to commend the work of Rich- mond Addiction Services, as the organization recently celebrated its 30th anniversary. Last year Richmond Addiction Services received funding from several source s, including $1.1 million from Vancouver Coastal Health, $100,000 from the Min- istry of Public Safety and Solicitor General and $175,000 from the city of Richmond. Richmond Addiction Ser- vices offers free, confidential alcohol, drug and gambling out-patient counselling as well as prevention and educa- tion services to adults, youth, families and seniors.

The Richmond Addiction Services society continues to expand its programs, adapting to the changing needs of the community. The adult daytox program provides support to an average of 17 people per day, and in 2005 Vancouver Coastal chose Richmond Addic- tion Services to launch a pilot youth daytox program. Other recent expansions in clude hiring a Chinese out- reach worker, an awareness campaign aimed at sen- iors, and an addictions counsellor who makes house and hospital calls to Richmond seniors. Executive director Vincent Battistelli has raised the profile of the organization within Richmond and be- yond.

He understands that drug and alcohol addiction is a serious issue facing our community. Richmond Addiction Services brings together all members of the community to solve these problems. The services of- fered by this organization support our government's great goal to lead the way in North America in healthy living. The Richmond Addiction Services society should be commended for helping the citizens of Richmond to choose healthy lifestyles. NAME CHANGE FOR GOLDEN TO HOCKEY, B.C. N. Macdonald: Earlier the Premier highlighted Sara Renner, who won a silver medal in cross-country ski- ing.

I would just like to add to that list from the Columbia Valley. Today Christine Keshen, a member of Canada's bronze medal–winning women's curling team, added to that total. I'd like you to join me in con- gratulating her. [Applause.] Thank you. In the time that's available to me, I want to talk about Hockey, B.C., which is the official new name of my home community. Changing the name "Golden" to "Hockey" was an idea that was put forward by a teacher, Mr. Souhail Soujah. It's an idea he picked up off of television. CBC is running a contest that looks for Hockeyville, Canada.

The idea of the contest is that you have to show your passion for hockey. He took it to his leader ship class, and the leader- ship class thought about what they could do to show

2452 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 2006 that the community was committed to hockey. The idea that one of them had, Biron Guthy-Kerr, was to change the name of Golden to Hockey. They took it to town council, and town council agreed to do it. They have put Hockey in front of the sign at the entrance to the town, instead of Golden. It has been picked up all over the place. It was in the Toronto Star . CBC TV is coming next week to do a story on it. What's exciting about it is that from a student in the class having this idea to having it picked up all over the place…. And it's not just Canada.

In Mexico two students from Golden Secondary School were moving, and they introduced themse lves to some locals and said they were from Golden , and the locals answered: "Don't you mean Hockey?" [1425] The only bad part of it was that there was an e-mail from somebody in Belgium, and they e-mailed the mayor and suggested that it was a crazy idea to change the name of Golden. He had been there and thought it was great, and they were changing it to Hockey. So it's only for a week, but that's the story of Hockey, B.C. SENIORS IN THE 21ST CENTURY R. Cantelon: I'm speaking today about 21st-century seniors.

As we look forward to the future, we know that seniors are the fastest-growing demographic in the province. We have all heard the statistics that today one in seven British Columbians is a senior. But in the not so distant future, that group will include one in every four people. I have to admit that like many of the colleagues in this assembly, I have a special interest in this fast-growing group. But what I would like to talk about today is some- thing I would call 21st-century seniors.

This refers to the increasingly changing lives that our seniors live and how we can provide them — how we have a re- sponsibility, indeed, to provide them — with the sup- port they deserve. Our se niors today are more physi- cally active and healthier than ever before and con- tinue to make significant contributions to our com- munity and our society for many years beyond their 65th birthday. In 2007 my community, Nanaimo, will be hosting the B.C. Seniors Games. I invite all British Columbians, and particularly those in this House, to participate and excel in the games that will be held in Nanaimo.

I promise you a welcome and a great reception. It's important, though, that whenever our seniors decide they want to relax and enjoy the fruits of their lifelong efforts, we have a great system of support there for them. That is why our government has made it one of our five great goals to provide the best system of support in Canada for seniors. In my constituency of Nanaimo-Parksville we've already seen a commitment to reaching that goal. Just a few weeks ago the Vancouver Island Health Authority announced that the region will be receiving 435 beds.

I would ask the House to join me in showing our appre- ciation for the outstanding contribution seniors have made and continue to make in each and every one of our constituencies. Oral Questions CARE BEDS FOR SENIORS IN KOOTENAY AREA Mr. Speaker: I'd say the member for Hockey, but…. The member for Columbia River–Revelstoke. N. Macdonald: Yesterday the Minister of Health claimed that the tragic case of the Albo family was a unique case. Yesterday my colleague told the minister that there were at least four other cases that she knew of. People in the Kootenays are telling me this is not unique.

They are telling me th at it is something that has happened in the past, that it is happening in the present and that they do not want to see it happen in the future. They are telling me it is directly connected to cuts to acute beds, cuts to residential care in the Kootenays. The question for the minister is: will the minister today admit to the House that his government's cuts to residential and acute care beds in the Kootenays and the government's first-available-bed policy is moving seniors away from their communities? Hon. G. Abbott: I appreciate the member asking the question.

Yesterday two members of the opposition indicated that they had at least four cases that told a story in respect of this. In response to the Opposition House Leader, I invited the opposition to provide me with the case files on those four or more cases. To this moment — because I just checked with my office up- stairs — we are in receipt of no case files from the op- position side. I do not suppose this is any attempt to play politics with this issue. I expect that the opposition sincerely meant what they said, and I look forward to being in receipt of those case files.

It is difficult for me to com- ment on case files which the…. Despite what I thought was an undertaking by the Opposition House Leader to bring them forward, I have not received them. Mr. Speaker: The member for Columbia River– Revelstoke has a supplemental. N. Macdonald: I do. The member for West Kootenay– Boundary is in her riding and will bring that information to you. [1430] The information that I can give you is a case from the past to point out to you that what has repeatedly happened…. This has happened in the past, and it is happening presently.

What w e n e e d t o d o i n t h i s House is make sure that it does not happen in the fu- ture. The case that I'll give to you is one that took place last spring. There was a resident of Golden. The resi- dent was a senior. The resident had lived in Golden her whole life. She was married for 50 years. Her husband

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2453 had participated in the building of the seniors home. The government made decisions to cut beds in that home. There was not space for her. Therefore, she was forced to leave the community. She died three weeks later in Salmon Arm, away from her husband, from her friends and from her community. Mr. Speaker: Does the member have a question? N. Macdonald: The question is this. There are ex- amples that need studying. You have sent somebody to study what's gone on in Tr ail.

What I'm asking the minister to do is to not stop just with Trail, but to move through the Kootenays and in clude Golden and all of the other communities that have similar stories. Look at what happened, and make sure that this does not happen again. Hon. G. Abbott: If the mem ber would like to pro- vide me with the details ar ound the unfortunate case he's describing, I'd be glad to look at it and see if there is something we can learn. Remember, Mr.

Speaker, that when we took office — and this is as true of the Kootenays as anywhere else in the province — the wait for residential care in this province was one year. Today the wait for residential care or assisted living is between 18 days in Vancouver Coastal and 88 days in the Interior Health Authority. That is the range across the province. As we add new facilities — and there are certainly a number of them in the Kootenays, including Golden…. As those facilities come on line, we will be able to re- duce the wait times even more. We've made a huge investment in this area.

It may not be perfect, but it's a heck of a lot better than when we took office five years ago. Mr. Speaker: Member has a further supplemental. N. Macdonald: The experience in the Kootenays is different from what you are describing. We had, in each community, community-built facilities that met the needs the community had. The difficulty with what has gone on is the transition. Beds were closed before new facilities were ready. That makes no sense in any way, and the result has been tragedy. There are lessons to be learned from what hap- pened in the past week in Trail.

What I want you to do is look carefully at what has gone on and look at the cuts that have been made to make sure that you learn from this. So I'm asking the minister to include com- munities other than just Tra il in the studies that you're going to do. Hon. G. Abbott: I don't for a moment question this member's sincerity. I have known this member for a long time, and I know he feels passionately about these issues. I do, though, have to remind the member that… I believe it's the Henry Durand Manor in Golden.

It was typical of a number of the facilities across the province that we inherited, where narrow doorways unsuitable for wheelchair access, narrow hallways, inappropriate dining and sanitary facilities…. As I noted yesterday in the House, a lot of these facilities were not meeting fire codes, not meeting building codes and not appropriate for the level of care that they were offering. In the case of Henry Durand Manor, the province has invested about half a million dollars in there to improve all of those things — add wheelchair accessi- bility, add lifts and so on. We have qualitatively im- proved that.

We have added assisted-living premises in Golden as well. We are working across the province to ensure that the frail elderly have the best possible ex- perience, qualitatively as well as quantitatively. [1435] AVAILABILITY OF BEDS AT ROYAL INLAND HOSPITAL H. Lali: This uncaring government's massive cuts to acute care beds and its complete failure to build 5,000 new long-term care beds are creating chaos at the Royal Inland Hospital in Kamloops. Last November over 18 surgeries were cancel led at RIH due to the lack of beds. As we speak, six more surgeries will be can- celled in Kamloops due to the lack of beds.

Presently there are 33 patients denied admittance to the Royal Inland Hospital due to the lack of beds. The Minister of Health callously dismissed the bed shortage crisis last November, choosing instead to blame a car accident for the chaos at the Royal Inland. An IHA report say s there is overcrowding in Kam loops. It say s: "There is ample evidence that we are overcrowded…. Our hospitals are too full, and we need to do something about it….

While the pressures on Royal Inland Hospi- tal…have been in the news of late, most of us have been aware of significant pressures for quite some time." This is the government's own report. My question is to the Minister of Health. How long have you been aware of this situation, and what are you going to do about immediately restoring beds that your uncaring Premier cut in the first place? Hon. G.

Abbott: To be brutally frank about it, the only chaos that exists in the health care system exists in the minds of that member and other members across the way who I think, regrettably and unfortunately, distort the real state of our health care in this province, which is very, very good. The Conference Board of Canada rightly pointed out that British Columbia has the best overall health care system in Canada. Have we ever said it's perfect? No, it is not. Each and every day we strive for continu- ous improvement in that health care system.

But Royal Inland Hospital and the other hospitals across this province provide exceptional care, and they provide exceptional care because of the caring people that op- erate those facilities. We should never forget again. This is an indication, and the members talk about this. The fact of the matter is that between the fiscal years '91-92 and '96-97 the number of acute care beds in

2454 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 2006 B.C. fell to 9,076 — a decline of over 22 percent. In the same period B.C.'s population grew by 14 percent. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. The member for Yale-Lillooet has a supplemental. H. Lali: The minister has got to be hallucinating if he believes that the state of health care in this province is very, very good. The Kamloops Daily News… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. H. Lali: …says: "Patients who don't belong in Royal Inland Hospital but have nowhere to go are causing doctors to postpone sur- geries because there are no beds available.

At the same time, doctors are un der pressure to discharge patients quickly and avoid admitting people, if possible," cardi- ologist Dr. David Kincade said. "There's this impetus to do everything we can not to admit patients in hospital," he said. Head of surgery at RIH Dr. David Stewart said: "What's happening at Royal Inland Hospital is a chronic problem in B.C." The date on that

article is July 9, 2004, and it is still hap- pening today. For two years the Premier has known about it. This uncaring Liberal government has known about it, and they have chosen to do nothing. They are now forcing doctors to refuse to admit sick people to hospitals. My question, again, is to the hon. minister.

Will the minister take immediate action in Kamloops, restore c u t s t o a c u t e c a r e b e d s a t R o y a l I n l a n d a n d k e e p t h e Premier's repeatedly broken promise to seniors by building new long-term care beds so that sick people don't have to suffer the indignity of increasing wait- lists and cancelled surgeries? Hon. G. Abbott: It's interesting. I was at Royal Inland Hospital just a week or two ago to celebrate the opening of the new 44-bed neuropsychiatric centre in Kamloops.

Earlier I'd been th ere to celebrate the open- ing of other facilities that we have added in Kamloops. [1440] I know that I've seen in newspaper articles today more nonsense from some of the members opposite about hospital patients stay ing in hotel rooms and so on. Again, this is just a total distortion of reality. The people in question are staying in hotels because they don't require pre-operative care in the hospital. So they're waiting in the hospitals the night before they go into surgery. All of this is totally appropriate.

I hope the mem- bers opposite don't have to adjust their question period questions as a result of me saying this, but this is en- tirely appropriate. The attempt is always made now, in terms of the use of acute care beds, to have day surger- ies or ambulatory surgeries whenever possible. We have come a long way in terms of surgical techniques and technology and so on. Many things that required hospital stays before can now be done on a day surgery basis. PARTICIPATION OF LES VERTESI IN HEALTH CARE RESEARCH TOUR D.

Cubberley: Speaking of distortions of reality, yesterday the Minister of Health described the Pre- mier's brother-in-law as a respected adviser who has written a number of publications, which he encouraged members of the House to take an interest in. Yet when I quoted directly from one of those publications stating that the Canada Health Act prohibition on user fees should be done away with, the minister said that was gross distortion. Moments later outside the House he admitted that he hasn't read the book. Given that today, presumably, he now knows Dr.

Vertesi does indeed advocate a par- allel private health system with user fees and queue- jumping, will the minister agree that it sends entirely the wrong message to British Columbians about the purpose of this tour? Hon. G. Abbott: I thank the member opposite for reminding me of why my career as a literary critic was so short. It's probably very fortunate that that's the case. The fact of the matter is that Dr. Vertesi is a very eminent medical practitioner in this province. I don't think even the members opposite — I hope not even they — are disputing this. Dr.

Vertesi has had a 30-year career as an emergency room physician. He has more recently been the head of emergency medicine at Royal Columbian Hospital. He has been the head, in the last couple of years, of medical services there. For those members who have had the unfortunate occasion to have to use the ambulance service in the province of British Columbia…. Advanced life support t h a t ' s n o w a p a r t o f s o m a n y o f o u r a m b u l a n c e s w a s something that Dr. Vertesi was very much pivotal in putting into place. He is, of course, our representative on the Canada Health Council.

He has had a very emi- nent career, and I would have hoped that the members opposite would celebrate that rather than depreciating the contribution he has made. Mr. Speaker: The member for Saanich South has a supplemental. D. Cubberley: The issue isn't the doctor's medical credentials, so we can set that red herring aside.

I'd remind the minister that the Premier promised British Columbians a real dialogue, not a hidden agenda, and that everything we do "will be within the Canada Health Act." The first thing we see is a private tour with a sole outside adviser who just happens to favour user fees and advocates two-tiered medicine, of which the minister appears to profess ignorance. Dr. Vertesi's agenda is clear. He wants to "make sure the Premier is not inadvertently steered in the

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2455 wrong direction." He wants to "make sure the Premier learns the right things and not the wrong things inad- vertently. He's well intentioned" — the Premier — "but there are lots of misunderstandings." Will the minister acknowledge that this is terrible optics and that it smacks of a hidden agenda? Will he tell the Premier this hastily contrived tour with an ad- vocate for allowing the rich to queue-jump should be either broadened or abandoned? [1445] Hon. G.

Abbott: As we said in the throne speech, we are looking forward to engaging with British Columbi- ans, other Canadian jurisdictions and internationally on how we can have a better heal th care system in British Columbia. Again, we've had lots of confirmation about British Columbia being the best overall health care sys- tem in Canada, but there's still lots of room for im- provement. We plan to learn things internationally, na- tionally and certainly provincially from the discussion. There is no intention by the Premier, by me or any- one else to limit the range of that discussion.

I had, for example, just last week a very good discussion with the B.C. Health Coalition who, generally speaking, are per- sistent and often quite predictable critics of this govern- ment. Nevertheless, we are going to welcome a range of views, and I hope the member opposite wouldn't dis- miss the views of Mr. Vertesi either. We are going to welcome a range of views. To para- phrase Chairman Mao: let a thousand flowers blossom. Let a thousand ideas prevail. CONDITION OF HOUSING IN DOWNTOWN EAST SIDE J.

Kwan: "You want to see the worst experiment of social housing in British Columbia, go to the downtown east side of Vancouver. It's a failed experiment because we forgot about the fact that people need to be integrated." Those were the words of the Minister of Housing. Visiting us today are four individuals who are ac- tive volunteers in the community, who live in award- winning social housing projec ts in the downtown east side. Can the minister explai n how individuals visiting us today are failed experiments in their community? Hon. R.

Coleman: There is a variety of very suc- cessful social housing projects in British Columbia, and there is a variety of projects that need to be enhanced for services for their clientele. There are also a number of people who are slipping through the cracks, who don't get the assistance they need when they have mul- tiple barriers and addictions that they need to be helped with in various forms of housing.

I don't see any reason why we shouldn't look at a con- tinuum of housing from homelessness through to social housing and other options to help everybody that could possibly be helped for the maximum ability we can do it. J. Kwan: Interestingly, that's not what the minister said — not once, but twice. Let me quote: "Major cities all across North America today are bulldozing their housing projects, and they're doing it so that they can redevelop their communities and integrate people into society." Words of the Minister of Housing once again.

The Premier himself negotiated an agreement with the former mayor of Vancouver, Larry Campbell, to fund 200 units of social housing in the Woodwards pro- j e c t i n t h e d o w n t o w n e a s t s i d e a s p a r t o f t h e O l y m p i c legacy. If the downtown east side was such a failure, then is the Premier wrong in signing that agreement? Hon. R. Coleman: The member knows well what's happening at Woodwards. Woodwards is actually an integrated project.

Yeah, there are 200 units of social housing that are going to be funded by the provincial government, but there is also market housing inte- grated into the same project. D. Routley: The Tellier Tower. The Pendera. Four Sisters Housing Co-op. Bruce Eriksen Place. Lore Krill Co-op. If the downtown east side is such a failed social experiment, why do the minister's own officials repeat- edly bring international guests to the downtown east side to tour these very same award-winning housing projects? Why do they tour what the minister has called a failed social housing experiment? Hon. R.

Coleman: You know, it's very interesting to listen to this. I had debates last fall with the member opposite during estimates de bate also about housing, and there was this big concern that somebody might go out and do a program and expand something like SAFER to help seniors to stay in their rental apartments in British Columbia when we helped 7,700 more peo- ple.

There was a big concern that we might be doing or even looking at rent supplements in housing in British Columbia, but when we became government there were already thousands of rent supplements put in place by the previous government. [1450] You actually talked about integration of housing in your own programs and debates when I was in opposi- tion. Let's get real, hon. member. What we need to do is have a housing strategy that goes from the continuum of homelessness right through to home ownership, and that's what this government is intending to do.

We're g o i n g t o h e l p a s m a n y p e o p l e a s p o s s i b l e w i t h t h e maximum dollars that we can put into place. Mr. Speaker: Member for Cowichan-Ladysmith has a supplemental. GOVERNMENT PLAN FOR SOCIAL HOUSING D. Routley: The big concern of this member and the big concern of the residents of social housing in B.C. is a minister who seems prepared to turn his back on all of that and apply simplistic, one-sided black-and-white solutions. My question, though, is to the Minister of Finance. The Minister of Finance was an advocate of social

2456 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 2006 housing when she was a councillor in the city of Van- couver. Will the Minister of Finance step in and ensure that these award-winning projects are not abandoned and commit today the needed funding for a compre- hensive social housing plan that includes new devel- opments of social housing for the residents of British Columbia? Hon. R. Coleman: The members opposite just don't get it. It's this simple. Yeah, there are some award-winning social housing projects in British Co- lumbia.

I was actually part of developing some of those, and they're great for their residents in B.C. But there's a gap that needs to be filled for people that have multiple barriers and mental illness. There are people in your community, hon. member, that can't have social housing today, because there is none available, yet they're paying over 50 percent of their income in rent. Would you deny them the opportu- nity to have a housing supp lement so they would be financially stable in their community just because you have…? You think I've got one-size-fits-all?

Those are the peo- ple that have one-size-fits-all in housing, hon. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Just a reminder, members, to direct your comments through the Chair. CANCELLATION OF LEAVING CERTIFICATES FOR SPECIAL NEEDS STUDENTS J. Horgan: Thank you for that reminder, Mr. Speaker. We heard a great deal in the budget speech about the importance of children to our future here in British Co- lumbia. Yet the Ministry of Education recently an- nounced that they're going to turn their backs on special needs students in this province and stop acknowledging the good work they do.

Last week the ministry announced that they were going to do away with the le aving certificates that were traditionally given to those students, special needs stu- dents who have completed their individual education programs and graduated with their peers. My question is to the minister. Can she tell this House and parents across this province why it is that this government has decided to turn its back on special needs students? What research, what experts have advised her that this is a good idea? Hon. S. Bond: Let's be perfectly clear.

This is a gov- ernment that has invested over $600 million to try to meet the needs of special education students across this province. We intend to continue to do that. That indi- cates the importance that those students have for this government. In fact, two of the government MLAs have brought this issue to my attention. I've already agreed that it's an issue th at's important, and we need t o g o b a c k a n d l o o k a t t h e p o l i c y , b e c a u s e w e c a r e about every student in this province. It's something we're going to look at. J.

Horgan: I'm always pleased to hear the minister's answers, even if they don't have anything to do with the questions I've asked. But she did come to it at the end, and I want to ask her again. If the government thought this was such a good idea last week, can she tell this House and can she tell parents…? In fact, she talks about parent involvement as well. The minister is very big on that. Fifteen hundred par- ents have signed a petition saying this is a bad idea; it's misguided. My question to her is this: why did you do it in the first place?

Why didn't you stand up and say: "It was a bad idea, and let's do away with it"? Hon. S. Bond: I'm delighted to continue to answer the questions from the member opposite as well. Even though he gets the answers the first time, he feels it necessary to ask them a second time. The fact of the matter is this. We said clearly… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. [1455] Hon. S. Bond: …that we're prepared to look at that decision. But let's look at th e record of this government — over half a billion dollars to try to meet the needs of special needs students across this province.

We also will soon release a report, the first that's been done in this province, called How Are We Doing? We actually want to look at how we are managing and working and trying to ensure that special needs st udents have the very best opportunities they can. We're committed to top-quality education for every student in this province. COVERAGE FOR RECONSTRUCTIVE SURGERY R. Austin: A constituent of mine, Mrs. Isobel Pantzelt, who is retired and living on a pension, was born with a cleft palate. She had all the usual recon- structive surgery as a child and then as a young adult.

Now in her senior years, she has needed dental surgery in order to be able to eat and has had to take out a mortgage on her home to pay for this. Her doctor and the dentist have both written on her behalf to get this procedure covered under the Medical Services Plan. Northern Health has refused to cover the surgery because dental is not covered even though it's obvious that this is medically required surgery. My question to the Minister of Health is this: does the minister believe that surgery that a doctor considers essential should be covered under the Medical Services Plan? Hon. G.

Abbott: I'll be cautious in my answer, be- cause I don't know the details of the case that the member raises. I am glad to receive from him the de- tails of the case, and I'd be pleased to take it up. I do have to say, though, that the Medical Services Com- mission is an independent body, and it would be inap- propriate for me or the member, for that matter, to at-

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2457 tempt to in any way fetter the jurisdiction and pru- dence of that body. That having been said, I appreciate the member raising the issue. If he would provide me and my office with the details, I would be pleased to see what we can do. BUDGET ALLOCATION FOR PREMIER'S OFFICE M. Farnworth: Can the Minister of Finance tell this House what compelling argument was made by the Pre- mier's office to give the largest increase, on a percentage basis, of any ministry to his ministry by this minister? Hon. C.

Taylor: In fact, there has been a lot of reor- ganization and restructuring going on, and one of the efforts that this government is really trying to work hard at is to get more cross-ministry initiatives. You see that in the new $421 million that we have announced in services for children. That cuts across a number of ministries. Our Strong Start program for children also is doing exactly the same thing. In this case, we can look at children as a whole and try to make sure that there are points that we can intervene, help and assist, and we can do it.

Well, to back up those initiatives, you have to have in the deputy minister's office the ability to talk to the various ministries and get everybody moving in the same direction. The increases come from the deputy ministers' secretariat. [End of question period.] Petitions J. Horgan: I have the privilege to present a petition.

This petition was signed by over 1,500 British Colum- bians, and it calls upon the government to acknow- ledge that: [While modified programs often have learning out- comes that differ from provincial graduation require- ments, students with disabilities are entitled to have their work recognized and their accomplishments pub- licly acknowledged by the province of British Columbia in the same manner as their peers.] Orders of the Day Hon. M. de Jong: Mr.

Speaker, I call in this cham- ber Committee of Supply, for the information of mem- bers, to consider the supplementary estimates No. 1. [1500] Committee of Supply SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES (continued) The House in Committee of Supply; S. Hawkins in the chair. The committee met at 3:02 p.m. On Vote 48(S): contingencies — negotiating frame- work initiative (all ministries), $1,000,000,000 (continued). G. Robertson: I'd like to just clarify with the minis- ter some math related to this million-dollar bonus for successfully negotiated contracts for the sectors that expire after March 31.

Under what specific conditions are they eligible for a comparable share of this bonus? Hon. C. Taylor: In exactly the same circumstances and in exactly the same amounts as all other public sector workers, if they can reach a negotiated settle- ment before their contract expires. G. Robertson: S o f r o m t h a t , i s i t s a f e t o c o n c l u d e that the minister will pay out that same $3,300 per worker, plus or minus, on those settlements as well? Hon. C. Taylor: As we have now said many times today and have said previously in public and private meetings, yes.

The Chair: Member, just to note, that question has been canvassed quite extensively this morning. G. Robertson: Thank you, Chair. When there's $1 billion on the table, it's important to make sure that stuff's covered. I…. The Chair: Member, repetition — tedious repetition — is not in this chamber. G. Robertson: I understand. The minister earlier today mentioned providing for the settlement within the foreca st allowance. Is that the only provision in the new budget where the post– March 31 settlements are contained? Hon. C.

Taylor: As the member opposite knows, the forecast allowance is there for unexpected circum- stances. This, we feel, fits into that category because it is always possible that the teachers will settle before March 31, and so we have greatly increased the forecast allow- ance for this coming year in part because there is the possibility of the settlements with the teachers. There's also the possibility that we will have difficulties with commodity prices, and there are always unknowns that happen, so we did significan tly increase the forecast allowance. G.

Robertson: So I conclude from that that there's no other expense related to this settlement in other ministries' budgets? Any anticipated cost that's attrib- utable to this is all in the forecast allowance? Hon. C. Taylor: That's correct. If we are still con- centrating on the bonus and the incentive for signing before the end of the contract, that's in the forecast al- lowance.

2458 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 2006 [1505] G. Robertson: So a question for me — I'm relatively new here. In approving this $1 billion, as the steps that we're taking right now…. We're actually talking about an additional chunk of money that will be potentially settled later. The approval related to that is not hap- pening today. This is specifically around the $1 billion that's in front of us. The approval that's related to the moneys that are in the forecast allowance — when does that approval happen? Hon. C. Taylor: I don't want you to do any adding here. This is not additional money.

If the teachers do not settle before March 31, their portion of the billion will go to paying down the debt in this year. We have put into the forecast allowance going forward a compa- rable amount, if the need is there, but in terms of when that gets approved, of course, it's part of the budget. It will be approved with the budget debate. G. Robertson: Thank you for helping me with the math. Questions, more specifica lly, on the post-secondary education sector. I'm curious who is really negotiating here. Is it currently the employers? Is it PSEC? Is it the ministry? Is it you, the Finance Minister, specifically?

Hon. C. Taylor: It is always the employers through the employers association. G. Robertson: My understanding is that when there are challenges with the employer — and in this case there are a great number of employers involved — PSEC will play a role and will be present at the table as the negotia- tion proceeds. Are they currently at the table? Can you describe what their role will be in the weeks ahead? Hon. C. Taylor: PSEC is not at the table. I want to remind the member opposite that this is about the $1 billion incentive. This is not about the negotiations that will be going on. G.

Robertson: The negotiation that is taking place is what triggers the $1 billion. That is what I have been hearing repeatedly, so it's hard to unbundle this conver- sation. There is a whole number of negotiations taking place with the employers. Can the minister give some information on how this is progressing at this time? Hon. C. Taylor: Again, as we said many times this morning, there is a lot of activity. We are quite hopeful that these various sectors are making progress. The Chair: Can we move on to something else, mem- ber? That area has been canvassed this morning as well. G.

Robertson: I'm specifically trying to get clarity around the negotiation that's dealing with post-secondary education, which is a very complex negotiation in that it directly results in whether or not the billion dollars will be allocated in the settlement. I'm curious from the minister…. The mandate that the employers have to sett le…. How broadly has this been shared? Have institutio ns been informed, the em- ployers been informed, wh at their numbers are and what they can work with in this situation for the nego- tiation? Hon. C. Taylor: The employers certainly are aware. G. Robertson: The employers are aware.

Is this information publicly available at this time? Hon. C. Taylor: In fact, negotiations are negotia- tions, and they happen at th e table. They don't happen in the press, and they don't happen in public. G.

Robertson: My understanding is that many of the challenges with the ti me line that are occurring right now are because the numbers are not on the table for some, if not all, of the sectors that are negotiating. [1510] Can the minister clarify the gap here between the employers having the numb ers and those who are ne- gotiating with the employers not having access to those, given that there's a very short period of time in which to conclude these negotiations? Hon. C. Taylor: They all have their mandates, and certainly, negotiations are proceeding. G.

Robertson: In regards to this deadline, which is some short weeks away, the complexity of these negotia- tions has come up again and again with regards to the post-secondary sector. There are great concerns among faculty and staff that they will be able to achieve the goals, the targets that have been set, and be able to ac- cess the billion dollars, which, we assume in good faith, has been put on the table, but there appear to be a lot more barriers present and a lot more micromanagement of the negotiation than will allow these negotiations to conclude.

I'm curious if the minister has full confidence that the bargaining with all of the sectors who are now bargain- ing can be concluded prior to the deadlines imposed. Hon. C. Taylor: What we are doing today is voting for supplementary estimates for this year. There are — more than decades — centuries of parliamentary tradi- tion that say we focus on th is year, and our year-end is March 31. That's what we're dealing with today on this. G.

Robertson: I understand exactly what our focus is today, the challenge being that in order for us to ap- prove the billion dollars, we should have some confi- dence that there is in fact a negotiation in good faith taking place so that the sectors that are bargaining right now have access to that bill ion dollars. It's not a one- time bribe for good behaviour. On this $1 billion, can the ratifications of negotia- tions that take place after March 31…? Can they still appeal for this bonus, given special approval?

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2459 The Chair: Member, again, that question was re- peatedly asked in committee stage earlier, and it is te- diously repetitious to repeat the comments and ques- tions that members have canvassed earlier. G. Robertson: Thank you, Chair. I understand that the post-secondary educa- tors…. PSEC has to approv e all of the contracts for the sector through this negotiating process. Are the guidelines for PSEC in th is negotiation available? Can they be made available to us, or are they public documents? Hon. C. Taylor: No, they're not a public document.

But we're not talking about negotiations here today. We're just talking about $1 billion that we are offering to put on the table as the signing bonus for every single public sector worker who manages to sign their con- tracts before their contracts expire. G. Robertson: Again, I'm confused. On the one hand, I'm under the impression that this is an open and honest process, and that we are here in the House to debate the expense of $1 billion of taxpayers' money. We need to have faith that the due diligence is being done. We need to understand that the bargaining is happening in good faith.

Given this government's record in bargaining and dealing with contracts, which, from my experience as a business person, has been deplorable, there is a lack of faith coming into this negotiation on the side of the public sector unions, given what they have been put through for these last number of years dealing with this government. At this point there are a lot of ques- tions being asked as to whether these negotiations that are taking place currently are in good faith. I'm curious, I'm asking, and I'll try this one more time. Are the guidelines th at the employers and PSEC are working with available?

Will you make them avail- able to us so that we can understand whether there is a gap that can be filled here in the negotiation related to the $1 billion? [1515] Hon. C. Taylor: No. G. Robertson: There are considerable challenges. I want to talk about the complexities related to these post-secondary contracts, the negotiations that are tak- ing place and specifically around the contract language issues. There are schools…. Th ere are universities and colleges with extraordinary challenges related to their contract language that are having to work through this process for the first time.

Again, we're talking about a short number of weeks in order to qualify for the bil- lion dollars. Can the minister explain the rationale in rushing through complex contract language? Is this a drive to get quick contracts done versus good contracts? Where is the comfort in this for institutions who are dealing with this process for the first time? Hon. C. Taylor: The wage mandate — which is w h a t y o u ' r e f o c u s i n g o n e v e n t h o u g h t h a t ' s n o t w h a t we're here to vote on — of $4.7 billion is not going to go away. It will be there.

It will be on the table for un- ions that take longer to come to conclusions. It's not going to go away. It remains there. What we're talking about today is an incentive of $1 billion that we are willing to offer to public sector em- ployees whose unions do ma nage to reach a contract negotiation before their other contract expires. It's as simple as that. We are not negotiating here, and if we know that there are complicate d issues on the table, in fact, we've encouraged it. That's another reason why this negotiating framework is so positive.

It not only has the wage-mandate dollars — extra dollars of up to $300 million if the economy is doing well and they sign longer contracts — but extra dollars up front as a sign- ing bonus if they, in fact, reach a negotiated settlement before their contract expires. We said: "Come to the table and talk about your i s s u e s . " W e k n o w t h a t s o m e h a v e t a l k e d a b o u t p e n - sions. Some have talked about training. Some have talked about technology. This is true negotiation that's happening, and it involves both sides.

The employers and the unions are having a chance at the table to really discuss these issues. Unlike you, I have been getting very positive feedback from my constituents — people who are union workers in the various sectors — saying they're so pleased that for the first time they're seeing this kind of creativity and imagination in negotiating and the fact that they can bring some specific issues to the table, such as some sectors…. Some layers within the union, in fact, are at a posi- tion where they feel they ar e not being as well paid as other parts of that union sector.

That's a difficult thing for a union executive to look at. We recognize that, but we do think that relevant labour markets should be guiding these negotiations. G. Robertson: I won't argue on the creativity level. There's always a place for crea tivity in negotiation, and I think there's an interest ing model put forward.

My concern is that institutions that have not been down this road before — institutions that are working on very complex contract language — will not have access to the billion dollars that we're talking about today because they won't be able to get through the complex negotiation on their language. That is my concern right now. This creative approach ends up excluding institu- tions because of the circumstances which they come into this negotiation under. Is there an easy answer for those institutions that have difficult language to get through before the deadline? Hon. C.

Taylor: Every single sector has difficult issues to deal with, as do the employers, who are also trying to negotiate and work out a negotiated settle- ment. We recognize that. That's why we introduced this mandate back in November. We know that a lot of activity is taking place at the negotiating table, and I think we should all be happy about that.

2460 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 2006 G. Robertson: For these institutions, is it logical to assume that they are capable of getting full funding for subsequent wage settlements regardless of this dead- line on March 31? Hon. C. Taylor: The billion dollars is simply for signing bonuses for those un ions who reach a negoti- ated contract before their contract expires. It has noth- ing to do with the wage mandate that they will be ne- gotiating at the table. [1520] G.

Robertson: A question, then, more broadly re- lated to the post-secondary sector — specifically, the colleges within that sector where the employers are not at a common table. Their cont ract is not up, as the min- ister I'm sure well knows, till 2007. At this point their ability to negotiate before March 31 and to be included in the billion-dollar category is compromised by the fact that the employers are all separately at the table. From legislation, I believe in 2003, this government accredited an employer association, but it's not manda- tory.

So the ability of the public sector unions who are negotiating at this time to reach a settlement before 2007, and in fact before Marc h 31, is challenged by the fact that employers are all at separate tables and that this government has not been willing to make the common table mandatory to those employers, which in my mind sounds hopelessly inefficient. Is there a mandate from this government to make that common table mandatory for these employers so that the negotiations can be more efficient and, hope- fully, can be brought to conclusion before March 31?

The Chair: Member, I would ask members to keep their comments focused on the debate at hand and not estimates or issues that are perhaps two years from now. So keep your comments focused on this estimate. G. Robertson: My question was specific to the ne- gotiation that's taking place, as they are one of the sec- tors that are bargaining. My question is to the minister. Is there an effort to bring these employers together at their common table so that this negotiation can move forward more quickly? Hon. C. Taylor: It's at their discretion. G. Robertson: I will take that as a no.

I have one final question that is related to the bonus that is available after March 31 at the same rate as the settlements that take place before then. In the post- secondary sector there are a number of contracts that are up in 2007. However, there is an eagerness to nego- tiate these in the near term and to in fact qualify for 2007.

Given that there have been many challenges over the last number of years for these sectors which are negotiating to have faith in this government that there will still be money down the line — it's always down the line — the question is: what is the guarantee for these sectors who are negotiating for their contracts who will not conclude those negotiations to qualify for the billion dollars that we're talking about today? Where is the guarantee that those moneys will be made available? Hon. C.

Taylor: W e h a v e s a i d t h a t w e h a v e m a d e that guarantee to those who have contracts that come at a later date. A. Dix: I want to thank members and the minister for their patience today. I think some of the challenges in this debate are about differing views of what the debate is about. The minister wants to narrowly focus the de- bate on the billion dollars, but the truth is that it is linked to the negotiations.

I think we all acknowledge that, to the extent that where that billion dollars is spent — the minister said in her first statement here in the House, I think — will depend on the success of those very nego- tiations. [1525] If you took the position and employers took the position that they didn't want or weren't going to be in a position to succeed, then more of that money, pre- sumably, would go to debt financing and more to pay- ing down the debt, and less would go to these contract bonuses.

So I think part of the challenge we have and part of reason that we want to have a debate about the substance of this is just that, and we're even going to have more of a debate in a moment. I just want to say I appreciate the minister, and I also appreciate that the minister is reluctant to talk about the details of them because these are negotia- tions. I think that's a little bit of the difference. My col- league from Vancouver–Mount Pleasant is now going to carry on the debate with some specifics in pertinent issues around the supplementary estimates. G.

Robertson: Through the Chair to the minister, I would just like to thank her for putting up with the repetition. I'm sure it's been a little trying, but it's im- portant that we do the right thing, do the due process and due diligence through this day of estimates. J. Kwan: Let me also thank my colleagues for the questions to the minister. Let me first of all start by saying that I do wish the minister and the government well in its negotiations. I think this next round of bargaining is very important. It's important for the government, for our workers and for all British Columbians.

So I do wish them all the very best, and I do wish that they would be successful. Now, of course — a s w e ' v e s e e n i n t h e l a s t f i v e years with respect to how this government deals with labour relations, and its track record — I am worried about it. I'm very worried about it, and let me just cite the following by way of a backgrounder. A press release from the National Union of Public and General Employees dated April 14, 2005, states that the Interna- tional Labour Organization has condemned the B.C. Liberal government in regards to three anti-worker

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2461 laws passed in 2002: Bill 18, the Coastal Ferry Act, which allows for private contractors to override contracting-out provisions found in existing collective agreements; Bill 94, the Health Sector Partnerships Agreement Act, which wipes out any clauses that re- strict or regulate the employers' ability to contract out; and Bill 55, the Railway and Ferries Bargaining Assis- tance Act, back-to-work legislation affecting ferry workers in the fall of 2003, after B.C. Ferries was privat- ized.

The Chair: Member, can you demonstrate how this is relevant to the supplement estimate at hand? J. Kwan: Y e s , t h a n k y o u , h o n . C h a i r . H o w t h i s i s relevant, of course, is that it ties into the entire issue that relates to trust in the negotiation process. It ties into this bill, in which I think the government is at- tempting to rebuild trust. So I'm trying to highlight, by way of visiting the backgrou nder, the hurdles that are ahead of us around the utilization and the process re- lated to this $1 billion. So that's why I'm putting this on the record. We need to look at the whole picture.

We didn't arrive at today in isolation. It didn't happen in a vacuum. It happened within the context of what's hap- pened since 2001. So that's how it's relevant, Madam Chair. According to the communiqué released by the ILO on February 6, 2004, the ILO noted that the passing of Bill 95 violated convention 87, the freedom and protec- tion of the right to organize convention, which was established back in 1948. It also noted that the passing of Bill 94 violated convention 87.

In regards to Bill 18, it states: Noting that the government did not hold full and frank consultations with representative organizations for the elaboration and adoption of the Health Sector Partner- ships Agreement Act and of the Coastal Ferry Act, the committee once again requests it to hold such consulta- tions in future where workers' rights of freedom of asso- ciation and collective bargaining may be affected. [1530] The NUPGE states in 2003 that the ILO has found the government guilty of rights abuses for passing six other laws.

They are the Health Care Services Con- tinuation Act, Bill 2, wh ich was passed in June 2001 and which is critical because there is a significant com- ponent of workers that relate to this bill before us and the dollars that the government has set aside, poten- tially, for the bonuses. The Health Care Services Collec- tive Agreement Act, Bill 15, was passed in August 2001. The Skills Development and Labour Statutes Amendment Act, Bill 18, wa s passed in August 2001. The Education Services Collec tive Agreement Act, Bill 27, was passed in January 2002.

The Public Education Flexibility and Choice Act, Bill 28, was passed in Janu- ary 2002 and the Health and So cial Services Delivery Improvement Act, Bill 29, in January 2002. According to the NUPGE, the ILO ruled that these laws violated international standards by shredding signed collective agreements and curtailing bargaining rights for more than 150,000 he alth, social services and education workers. To date, the province continues to thumb its nose at the UN agency and has failed to comply with any recommendations to bring these laws into compliance.

So you understand why there's a high level of distrust on the government's handling of la- bour relations and labour negotiations. This backgrounder is an important reminder, I hope, to the government in looking at the record, and for the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Finance in understanding the place that we have arrived at today and the history around that. The Chair: Member, I've given fairly wide latitude, but as the member is well aware, because she has been in this chamber for many years, legislation is not dis- cussed in estimates.

So continue, but I would ask you to keep focused on the suppl emental estimates at hand here. J. Kwan: Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate y o u r g u i d a n c e o n t h a t . I t w a s n ' t m y i n t e n t t o r e - d e b a t e the legislation that I mentioned. In terms of the violation of international standards, in terms of labour approaches with this government…. I only raised them by name — I'm sorry, there are many acts that the government did bring into place that violated the standards — by way of a backgrounder and a backdrop.

Given that there is a billion dollars that is at stake here, and that's the bill that is before us, and it does re- late to the history of labour relations in this province… Interjection. The Chair: Order. J. Kwan: …I think British Columbians deserve to know how exactly the government is managing the money in its negotiating process. Could the minister please tell this House how many people are negotiating on behalf of the government at this time? The Chair: Member, that's been asked before, and that's not relevant in these estimates at hand. J. Kwan: Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the guidance.

I did hear the question asked, but I didn't actually hear the answ er. I'll tell you, again, to see if I can actually link the relevance here. It is a billion dollars of taxpayers' money. I think that tax- payers have the right to know how hard the gov- ernment is working at engaging in those negotia- tions and how many people within the public ser- vice are involved in that process, so that we get a sense of confidence, perhaps, that the government is working on this. I'm not sure why the minister won't share that information with British Columbians. Hon. C.

Taylor: As the member opposite knows well, we are not at the negotiating table. I am not a negotiator. My responsibility was to assess the finan-

2462 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 2006 cial health of the province going forward and the amount the taxpayers could ac tually afford to put on the table to help with these public sector negotiations. The overall negotiating framework will cost up to $6 billion. We believe that's fair for the workers. We believe it's also fair to the taxpayers. Today we're look- ing at $1 billion that we are offering, on top of wage negotiations, as almost a signing bonus if unions are successful in negotiating contracts before their con- tracts expire. J.

Kwan: Yes, I appreciate that the minister is not engaging in the negotiations. Ministers never do en- gage in the negotiations, an d that's not my question to the minister. Surely this government and this minister, who is responsible for the fi nances of this province, would know and would care to know how many peo- ple are doing that work and how it is going. [1535] That's what I'm trying to get at, to get a sense that in fact the government is managing the process well. And is it? Does the Minister of Finance, who holds the purse strings, who has a high stake in this issue…? I think she wants to see successes.

What assurance is she getting that we are getting successes? Minimally, I would think that she would want to know how many people within government are engag- ing in the negotiations with the many sectors. I heard the minister say — and yes, she's right — that some 90 per- cent of the agreements are up. That's a lot of negotiation that needs to take place, so why is the government being so secretive about it? Why won't the government give British Columbians and members of this House the an- swer? How many people are engaging in those negotia- tions? Who do they report to?

Do they report to the Min- ister of Labour, do they report to the minister herself, or do they report to the Premier, for example? The Chair: Member, just to note again that this question has been asked numerous times and the an- swer has been given numerous times that this is not about negotiations, not about the process. J. Kwan: Well, maybe it's just me. A billion dollars is a lot of money. I anticipate that in my lifetime I probably won't see that amount of money, so for me it's a lot of money.

It's a huge responsibility of government to manage taxpayers' money and to make sure that those dollars are spent wisely , to make sure that those dollars are spent in a way that is effective. In this instance we're talking about negotiations, the process of negotiations, the people who will go out there to talk to the other parties to strike a deal. That ties into this $1 billion. This $1 billion that the minister talks about is related intrinsi cally to the work that is being done by the team of negotiators that are in gov- ernment. So I think there is some relevance here related to this money.

For us to know how many people are out there engaging in this work so that we get a sense of how the government in this process, in managing this $1 billion price tag for negotiations…. I know, Madam Chair — and I take your advice — that this question's been as ked. The problem is that the answer has not been received. I'm hoping that the min- ister will actually provide these answers to what I think are valid questions for the opposition to ask and for British Columbians to know. Hon. C. Taylor: In terms of the billion dollars, the management is quite clear in this case.

We have offered equally to all of the public sector workers what works out to be about $3,300 if in fact their unions can negoti- ate a settlement at the bargaining table before their contracts expire. That money is a decision that we made as government to reach out to unions and, hope- fully, help negotiations come to a conclusion in a way that has winners on all sides. As the member opposite knows, we are not negotiatin g. It is the employers who are at the table with the union leaders. J.

Kwan: Yes, and many of these employers work in a government agency or are accountable to a govern- ment agency with respect to the negotiations process. But I fail to understand. I really do. It's not a trick question. All that I'm trying to get at is an understand- ing of how many people are engaging in this work and to give a sense to British Columbians of how the gov- ernment is managing the process. The minister has refused to answer the question. Let's be clear on the record about that. The question was asked many a time, and the minister refused to answer that question.

Now, th e minister says that it's not part of this debate in th is bill. I don't agree with it, but I'll set that aside for a moment and just put a marker on this and save that for estimates debate, for another time, I'm sure. We'll be here until the end of May, so let's just earmark that question for a moment, then. [1540] The minister just said that there is approximately $3,300 per worker if you divide up the billion dollars amongst all the different workers that exist in the vari- ous bargaining units.

Is the minister saying, then, that how that $1 billion bonus money would be divided would be on a per-worker basis? Hon. C. Taylor: As we said earlier this morning, that will be decided at the negotiating table. J. Kwan: Well, that's the statement the minister made. She said that if you divide up the billion dollars, it comes to about $3,300 per worker.

Is that the formula which the government's working with, or is that a fig- ure that she just decided would be useful for the pur- poses of debate but not for the purposes of actual, fac- tual information — that it would be useful to say: "Well, let's just break it up and divide it up, and that's what it looks like"? Whether or not it really looks like that remains another story. Are there discrepancies, for example, in terms of different sectors that might receive different chunks of money? I ask that question because when the minister

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2463 made the announcement around this billion dollars, there were lots of questions that people wanted to know about. They weren't forthcoming. The answers weren't forthcoming at the press conference and cer- tainly weren't forthcoming in the press release from the government. They certainly didn't add any information subsequent to the newspaper reporting on this issue. I'm just trying to get them some facts here in terms of how the government is dealing with this $1 billion bo- nus money.

The minister cites in her comments that there are different envelopes for each set of negotiations. Let me just start with this, then. How many sets of envelopes are there within the bargai ning units in the govern- ment? This billion dollars is to be divided up amongst how many envelopes? Hon. C. Taylor: I think you're confusing two things. On the billion dollars it works out to approximately $3,300 per employee.

When you get over to the $4.7 bil- lion — which is the wage mandate, which is what they are at the table negotiating — in that case, there are dif- ferent envelopes for whether it's nurses or HEU or BCGEU. We have tried to say that relevant labour mar- ket is very important, not only between these sectors but within these sectors. We have made our position quite clear on that, and I know that discussions are happening at the table.

We have even seen some discussions in the press from certain workers within unions who feel that within their union certain members should receive a l a r g e r w a g e i n c r e a s e t h a n o t h e r s . W e h a v e s a i d t h a t certainly, when we're talking about relevant labour market, that's important. But that is not the billion dol- lars we're talking about today. The billion dollars today treats all workers in the same way. J. Kwan: First of all, I would appreciate it if the minister actually directed the comments through you, Madam Chair.

On the issue around the envelopes the minister says that the billion dollars is being directed to all of the workers in the same way. Then it goes back to the fundamental question, doesn't it? Is the minister's in- tent that the billion dollars will be divided up equally amongst all the workers if they are to be dealt with the same way? Is that what she meant? Hon. C. Taylor: It's hard to imagine how you can see this as anything but great news for unions and their workers. What we have said is that the amount of $1 billion works out to approximately $3,300 per employee.

But we are also listening to the unions, and at the negotiat- ing table there have been some that suggest they'd rather not have it as individual cheques but maybe would like to talk about things like pensions and other issues. So that is at the negotiating table. [1545] In terms of how the money is actually divided up, it is on the basis of $3,300 per employee. Some unions have also said to us that they would like the freedom at the negotiating table to talk about how they will decide to use that money. These are negotiations at the table.

From our point of view, we'r e trying to be evenhanded and fair to everyone. J. Kwan: The answer, then — if I could rephrase what I understood the minister's answer to be…. Is that yes, generally speaking? What we've got is $3,300 per worker. The different negotiat ors at the table from the union side may decide that some of that money might go into a pension plan, for example, for the workers or that some other item might be more appropriate for them.

At the end of the day, though, the value of the dol- lars, whether it be in the pension plan approach or in any other components within sharing of the bonus money, comes to $3,300 per person — per worker. That includes doctors, health professionals — the entire 90 percent of those who are engaging in negotiations at the moment. Hon. C. Taylor: In the ways that the member oppo- site actually mentioned it, that's exactly what we're trying to do: a doctor, $3,300; an electrician in the HEU, $3,300 — whatever the position.

The unions have asked for some flexibility that they would like to use at the negotiating table. For instance, if they have someone who wo rks one shift in the year, they don't believe, themselv es, that they should be treated in exactly the same way as their full-time em- ployees. All of this is happe ning at the negotiating ta- ble. That's why I'm always saying that it works out for most employees who are working full-time jobs at $3,300 a year. J. Kwan: Actually, that's useful information.

That's helpful for me to better understand the process in which the government is embarking with this $1 billion negotiating bonus money. Let me ask you this question, because I think that this is very important as well. It is: is the March 31 deadline based on a signed contract? Does that mean to say, then, each of the unions that is engaging in nego- tiations and so on would actu ally have to have the en- tire negotiations completed and signed off by their membership by March 31 for them to access the bonus dollars? Or is it based on the agreements that have been agreed to at the table?

In many instances a lot of people have to go back and go through another set of procedures to see whether or not the agreements are going to be ratified, and that, too, may take some time. I'm just trying to get some clarity on the time line here. Is it the expectation of the government that the March 31 deadline is for signed agreements or is it agreements that have been arrived at, at the negotiat- ing table? Hon. C. Taylor: I n o r d e r t o m e e t o u r G A A P r e - quirements, what the public service accounting and auditing board, which is a na tional body that tells us

2464 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 2006 how the accounting must be done…. We must achieve certainty in the contracts. We have been talking about ratification as being that cert ainty. It's interesting that the HEABC has come to us and asked if we would al- low electronic voting, because they want to make sure t h a t t h e y c o u l d d o i t q u i c k l y i f n e e d b e . W h a t w e ' r e required to have is certainty. J. Kwan: Then, I take it to mean that they have to be signed contracts, that they have to be ratified by the membership by March 31.

Is that what the minister means by certainty? Hon. C. Taylor: At this point, the negotiators are talking with union leaders, and they're certainly all working in the same direction. If you can get complete ratification done, then of co urse that really gives both sides certainty. Also, if you can do it ahead of time and the con- tract, for instance, doesn't work, then you would be able to go back to the table and perhaps try to get it done in time. That's what we've been talking about. We're just saying certainty.

I would think that this dis- cussion is happening at each negotiating table, but I'm not there. [1550] J. Kwan: I'm sorry, but I don't actually understand what certainty means. What level of certainty is what I'm trying to get at. Are we talking about a signed, rati- fied contract, or are we ta lking about an agreement at the table for which it may take some time for the mem- berships to vote on the agreement? Is it enough cer- tainty for the negotiators to arrive at an agreement at the table? I'm just trying to get a sense of what certainty does mean.

What does it mean for the Minister of Finance, who holds the purse strings? At what point would she say: "No, I'm sorry, that's just not certainty enough, and March 31 is the next 24 hours or next five hours" or "We are at March 31, so therefore I'm going to take that money away"? I'm just trying to get a sense of it, and I think that British Columbians, also, should be able to know what the minister means when she says certainty. Hon. C. Taylor: We are required — and this is the wording — to have certainty. I know that the negotia- tors and the union leaders ar e talking about this right now.

I am not in a position to pre-empt any of those discussions, but what we must be satisfied with at the end of the day is that there is certainty that it's going to happen. Otherwise, the billion dollars must go towards paying down the debt. J. Kwan: Who gets to decide whether or not they are satisfied? Hon. C. Taylor: The judgment certainly would have to be made at that time. The union leaders under- stand this situation. The employers understand this situation. These rules, which are set down nationally as guiding principles, would have to be met.

I know that these discussions are going on right now, as everyone's trying to make sure they will be able to reach certainty on these agreements. It wo uld be quite improper for the Minister of Finance at th is particular time to not allow those discussions to happen. J. Kwan: No, I'm not suggesting that the minister should not allow for those discussions to happen. I certainly hope those discuss ions are happening as we speak. I hope the negotiators are out working really, really hard, and I expect that they are. That's not my intent at all with respect to my question.

The minister says that th e "judgment…made at that time." That's a direct quote from the minister's comment. So my question is: by whom? Who makes those judg- ments? Is it them, the negotiators? Are the negotiators at the table making those judgments? Who makes the ulti- mate decision here? Is it the Minister of Finance? Is it the Minister of Labour? Is it th e Premier? I honestly don't know. I honestly don't know who gets to decide the question of certainty, and maybe the minister can just tell us, and then we can get on with things. Hon. C.

Taylor: In order to achieve certainty, we are having discussions, as I've said several times, and we are looking for ways and ideas of how we can make sure that that satisfies all of our requirements. At the end of the day, it has to be signed off by the Auditor General. J. Kwan: The minister says, "We're having discus- sions," discussions that have to satisfy everyone. Who is "we"? Hon. C. Taylor: I assume you're referring to when I said "we" — it's Finance. Finance has the responsibility for this money. That's why we've come to the House today.

That's why we're aski ng for permission to be able to spend this billion dollars so that if we were for- tunate enough to have contracts concluded tomorrow or next week or the week after, we could immediately assign the money over to the unions. [1555] J. Kwan: Then, just to narrow this. I think I heard two people are responsible. One is the Auditor Gen- eral. The minister says the Auditor General has to sign off on this, so I assume that he or she…. Although the Auditor General may change in the next while — who knows? Actually, no, it is going to change, but I don't know when that's going to come in.

So the Auditor General has to sign off, and the other person that I…. When I asked who is the "w e" that are having discus- sions that need to make sure that everybody is satis- fied, the minister responded: "Finance." So does that mean to say, then, that it's the Minister of Finance and the Auditor General? Hon. C. Taylor: It is in fact the employers and the union leaders who are discussing this. They will have

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 2465 some suggestions, I assume. They will come to us at that point. We will look at it and see if we believe with all of our financial experts that it satisfies certainty, and at the end of the day it has to be signed off by the Auditor General. This is like all of the processes we do. J. Kwan: I appreciate that it would be the people at the negotiating tables from both sides who would come forward with a package that says, "It looks like this," and so on and so forth.

But the person who approves that, ultimately, who will then agree to say, "Okay, I am prepared to bring this forward to the Auditor Gen- eral," would be the minister of Finance, then? The Auditor General may say, "It kind of missed the mark on certainty here," based on whatever. Or he can say, "Yeah. No. That meets my needs," and so on. Am I right, then, in this proces s? Because I think that's how it's going to unfold. Ultimately, the minister makes a decision based on the information that's brought to her, and she can then say: "Yeah.

I'm comfortable in bringing this forward to the Auditor General for signoff." Isn't that how it really would work? Ultimately, I'm not asking the minister to guarantee whether or not the Auditor General would sign off on it, but the minister will have the information before her, and the advice around her from her staff, that this tends to meet th e understanding of certainty under GAAP. Hon. C.

Taylor: That's basically correct, except the step that always happens, in fact, is that there are con- versations all the time as we're going through within our comptroller general department, within Finance and with the Auditor Genera l as well. So it's not a completely isolated process. We're always trying to see how we can do this proper ly. We have been saying "ratification," and all I am saying to you is that I know there are discussions about exactly what that means and what the timing is, and so that's happening at the negotiating table. J.

Kwan: It sounds to me, actually, that there's some flexibility here around that , on the question around certainty. I heard this morning that the minister has said that she wanted to be very clear that there's no extension. March 31 is the deadline, and so on and so forth. Well, yes, March 31 is the deadline, but on the question of what exactly is certainty around that dead- line…. There's flexibility with in that. That's what I'm gathering. So maybe I can ask the minister this. Who's giving the ministry advice at the moment around this notion of certainty? Is it the Auditor General's office?

Is it the comptroller's office? Is it the Attorney General's office? Who's providing advice to the minister around this notion of certainty at the moment? Hon. C. Taylor: At this point we have within our ministry decided that ratifica tion is the definition of certainty. We have not yet had anyone come to us and offer other ways of ensuring certainty, so at this point we have been saying "ratification." But I do know that conversations are going on. I'm trying to be very open about this.

We would have to, at the end of the day, just ensure that it is something that we believe meets GAAP and that the Auditor General would sign off. But the whole point here, the real point, is that at the negotiating table there are a lot of interesting issues be- ing discussed. We're not here today to talk about the negotiating framework. We're not here to talk about the negotiations. What we are asking the House for today is a supplementary estimate of $1 billion so that if in fact some contracts are completed before they expire, we will immediately be able to write those cheques. [1600] J.

Kwan: With all due respect, I don't think any- body is trying to engage in negotiations here at all. I haven't heard any questions from anybody in this House that are driving the issue in that direction. I think all that members in the House are trying to do is get clarity around this billion dollars, which is a lot of money. I heard today that there were some com- ments from the minister th at somehow she thinks the opposition thinks that this money is bad news. Nobody has stated that either.

I want to be very clear on the record that all of us wish the government well and wish the minister well in her round of nego

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0223pm-11
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0223pm 11
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	cb5441f9ed30f49d587c26403aa7ea1b2482ba23

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